Patterico's Pontifications

12/5/2013

The Genius of Government: Dutch Government Pays Alcoholics in Beer

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 7:49 am

This is the logical continuation of the permissive and soft-headed mode of thinking that charactarizes lefty governments like this:

After more than a decade out of work because of a back injury and chronic alcoholism, Fred Schiphorst finally landed a job last year and is determined to keep it. He gets up at 5:30 a.m., walks his dog and then puts on a red tie, ready to clean litter from the streets of eastern Amsterdam.

“You have to look sharp,” said Mr. Schiphorst, 60, a former construction worker.

His workday begins unfailingly at 9 a.m. — with two cans of beer, a down payment on a salary paid mostly in alcohol. He gets two more cans at lunch and then another can or, if all goes smoothly, two to round off a productive day.

“I’m not proud of being an alcoholic, but I am proud to have a job again,” said Mr. Schiphorst, the grateful beneficiary of an unusual government-funded program to lure alcoholics off the streets by paying them in beer to pick up trash.

The program was “started last year by the Rainbow Foundation, a private but mostly government-funded organization that helps the homeless, drug addicts and alcoholics get back on their feet.” That is stated as fact. Giving alcoholics beer helps them get back on their feet? Yeah? Is that how that works?

Via Allahpundit on Twitter.

66 Comments

  1. I can imagine what they could do for sexaholics.

    Comment by Hoagie (5c4f98) — 12/5/2013 @ 8:19 am

  2. Well, I am for meeting people “where they are at” and then helping them up, and maybe this even would make sense on occasion, if the amount of alcohol involved was enough to keep them from going into the DT’s (and possibly dying)
    and a six-pack a day, spread out in 3 servings, in exchange for working
    seems at least a start
    not sure how much sense it makes as a governmental policy, though
    and hopefully there is encouragement to move up in the world and get a better job and less alcohol dependence.

    Comment by MD in Philly (f9371b) — 12/5/2013 @ 8:28 am

  3. What could go wrong?

    Comment by daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 12/5/2013 @ 8:56 am

  4. What MD said. I’ll take it further, even. We do it with methadone, here. That’s government sponsored. And with Buprenorphine and similar. And with barbiturates. And with benzodiazepines. And a very broad range of other anti-depressants, anxiolytics, and what-have-you mood and metabolism altering drugs. Many of them paid also by the government or group health plans.

    Nobody has a handle on severe, chronic alcoholic poisoning. Call it alcoholism, call it a disease, call it an addiction, call it a quarter pounder with cheese, you’ve only labeled it and gotten nowhere near solving it. The best 5-year success rate of any program is maybe 15%, and if you look close you see it mostly in people who are under some kind of legal disability to remain sober, e.g. to retain a license, or to stay out of jail, or to keep their kids, and are also monitored with regular or random tests. AAs “one day at a time” is not a strategy — it’s a sad statement of reality. There is only one program that works. A twelve-step program but not any of the 120 or so twelve-step programs that the rehab racket touts. Take twelve steps past the tavern. If you managed to do that today … oh, wait … it’s only 11:00 a.m..

    Comment by nk (dbc370) — 12/5/2013 @ 9:05 am

  5. Oh, and I had ethanol IV in my last ER visit, although I’m told that’s old medicine and benzos should have been enough to keep me from going into DTs. 150 milligrams, yes milligrams, $150.00 on the ER bill. I don’t even want to do the math but it has to be the most expensive drink I ever had. ;)

    Comment by nk (dbc370) — 12/5/2013 @ 9:16 am

  6. It keeps the guy from drinking Sterno, doesn’t give him money for doing nothing, gets him doing something (presumably) productive, and doesn’t dive headlong into the rathole of Prohibition. If the government is going to do anything at all about alcoholics, I prefer this to dozens of other ideas I’ve seen.

    I admit, I would rather see this kind of thing being dons by a truly private charity. On the other hand, can you just imagine the screams of outrage from the Drys (like MADD)?

    Comment by C. S. P. Schofield (e8b801) — 12/5/2013 @ 9:21 am

  7. Fat, drunk and stupid is now a government approved lifestyle in the Netherlands.

    Comment by daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 12/5/2013 @ 9:25 am

  8. If you want to be outraged by Germany Lite, they’re doing much worse things. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groningen_Protocol

    Comment by nk (dbc370) — 12/5/2013 @ 9:32 am

  9. They get the beer, some tobacco, a lunch, and 10 euros per day for their efforts, so figure that it is a total daily wage of about 25 euros. Where are all the living-wage advocates outraged at the poverty-like compensation that these men are earning for their labor?

    Comment by JVW (709bc7) — 12/5/2013 @ 9:34 am

  10. Where are all the living-wage advocates outraged at the poverty-like compensation that these men are earning for their labor?

    Eating their bread and watching the circuses.

    Comment by ras (be1e0d) — 12/5/2013 @ 9:38 am

  11. This all was a New York Times article today.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/05/world/europe/amsterdam-has-a-deal-for-alcoholics-work-paid-in-beer.html?_r=0

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (1e81da) — 12/5/2013 @ 9:40 am

  12. Hey, Sammy. Are you going to have dinner tied to a strange lady tonight?

    Comment by nk (dbc370) — 12/5/2013 @ 9:44 am

  13. 4- nk, Agreed on all accounts.
    off topic, Thinking about going to Kalambaka, is it as beautiful as it looks?

    Comment by mg (31009b) — 12/5/2013 @ 9:47 am

  14. “If you want to be outraged by Germany Lite, they’re doing much worse things.”

    - nk

    Holy shit. That link is terrifying.

    Comment by Leviticus (2aa4e6) — 12/5/2013 @ 9:48 am

  15. 12. I lost you.

    This was apparently done to keep drunks from panhandling and disturbing the peace in the parks:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/05/world/europe/amsterdam-has-a-deal-for-alcoholics-work-paid-in-beer.html?_r=0&pagewanted=all

    Locals in the heavily immigrant eastern district who used to curse alcoholics for turning the area’s main park, Oosterpark, into an unruly outdoor bar now greet them with smiles as they do their cleaning rounds, dressed in orange jackets and carrying bright yellow garbage bags.

    “This is not a beer project — it is a cleaning project,” said the district mayor, Ms. Elatik, adding that it had proved far more successful in keeping drunks out of Oosterpark than previous government initiatives. On a recent afternoon, there were just three people drinking in the park, instead of the dozens who used to gather there, she said.

    Until the beer-for-work program started, the authorities had tried to purge the park of drunks by banning alcohol there and stepping up patrols by security guards. But this only forced alcoholics to move to other parks in the area and led to fights with the guards. Mr. Schiphorst himself was detained after one such brawl.

    “It is easy to say, ‘Get rid of them and punish them,’ ” Ms. Elatik said. “But that does not solve the problem.

    They even drink less.

    It’s probably not completely legal, though. They must not be classifying it as work.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (1e81da) — 12/5/2013 @ 9:56 am

  16. Comment by nk (dbc370) — 12/5/2013 @ 9:16 am

    150 milligrams, yes milligrams, $150.00 on the ER bill. I don’t even want to do the math but it has to be the most expensive drink I ever had.

    That must have been a cut-rate hospital.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/03/health/as-hospital-costs-soar-single-stitch-tops-500.html

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (1e81da) — 12/5/2013 @ 10:01 am

  17. Prices for any item or service are set by each hospital and move up and down yearly, and show extraordinary variability, health economists say. The codeine that costs $20 and the bag of IV fluid that costs $137 at California Pacific are charged at $1 and $16 at the University of California San Francisco Medical Center, across town. But U.C.S.F. Medical Center charges $1,600 for an amniocentesis, which costs $687 at California Pacific. …..

    …..Orla Roche’s bill, for example, included $529 for “supplies and devices,” though her mother is perplexed about what those are: Orla left the emergency room with gauze wrapped round her head (under $1 at Internet supply stores), festooned with a pink cartoon sticker. According to the chargemaster price list for California Pacific, a vial of skin glue is billed at $181, a tube of antibiotic cream at $125.84 and a vial of local anesthetic at $79.73. These items can be purchased for $15.99, $36.99 and $5 on the Internet, though hospitals — which buy wholesale and in bulk — pay far less.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (1e81da) — 12/5/2013 @ 10:04 am

  18. Better to give them a Naltrexone implant. This is like Norplant, but instead of a birth-control chemical, the implant is a drug that interferes with the gets-you-high response to alcohol in the brain.

    Of course, “not drinking anymore” doesn’t always lead to becoming gainfully employed.

    Comment by Mitch (341ca0) — 12/5/2013 @ 10:13 am

  19. Apparently there’s quite an epidemic of suicide now by Dutch jumping in front of trains. A Dutch friend of mine was talking about doing that which is scary, but I digress. While there are a lot of things I like about Holland, it is no Nirvana.

    I still think America with the insane war on drugs is dramatically worse (Portugal is a better model), but everyplace is wrestling with problems and trying to find solutions.

    With confidence, one thing I’ll say about alcoholism and other drug abuse (and suicidality and self-harm and depression and anxiety and excess promiscuity) is it is almost always a way of self-medicating prior trauma and neglect, whether from adulthood or especially childhood and the undermining of resilience that goes on there. It isn’t as simple as a character flaw or genetic weakness. Parenting children in a peaceful, affectionate and attached manner is by far the best prevention to build up resilience in people. Hitting them, verbally demeaning them, subjecting them to parental fights or divorce, or sending the off to daycare is not.

    Comment by Former Conservative (6e026c) — 12/5/2013 @ 10:39 am

  20. mg, yes it is. It is a wild, beautiful place. There are lots of songs about it, here’s one every Greek knows, about a guy crazy about a crazy Kalambaka blonde. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyrWatWy070

    Comment by nk (dbc370) — 12/5/2013 @ 10:40 am

  21. Oh, and I had ethanol IV in my last ER visit, although I’m told that’s old medicine and benzos should have been enough to keep me from going into DTs. 150 milligrams, yes milligrams, $150.00 on the ER bill. I don’t even want to do the math but it has to be the most expensive drink I ever had.

    lol Good; hopefully that was helpful.

    But on a math basis, I’m pretty sure that works out to a dollar a milligram.

    Comment by Former Conservative (6e026c) — 12/5/2013 @ 11:02 am

  22. Well, I am for meeting people “where they are at” and then helping them up, and maybe this even would make sense on occasion, if the amount of alcohol involved was enough to keep them from going into the DT’s (and possibly dying)
    and a six-pack a day, spread out in 3 servings, in exchange for working
    seems at least a start
    not sure how much sense it makes as a governmental policy, though
    and hopefully there is encouragement to move up in the world and get a better job and less alcohol dependence.

    Comment by MD in Philly

    Once again, I agree. MD in Philly he has got a compassionate and practical view on things like this.

    Better to give them a Naltrexone implant.

    Comment by Mitch

    Possibly.

    It keeps the guy from drinking Sterno, doesn’t give him money for doing nothing, gets him doing something (presumably) productive, and doesn’t dive headlong into the rathole of Prohibition. If the government is going to do anything at all about alcoholics, I prefer this to dozens of other ideas I’ve seen.

    I admit, I would rather see this kind of thing being dons by a truly private charity. On the other hand, can you just imagine the screams of outrage from the Drys (like MADD)?

    Comment by C. S. P. Schofield

    Yes on each point.

    Comment by Former Conservative (6e026c) — 12/5/2013 @ 11:08 am

  23. Sounds good on paper, but I doubt these guys show up regularly and soon are back on the street.

    A movie company tried to hire real homeless/vagrants in L.A. for The Soloist, and the guys even after training lasted until lunch on day 1.

    Comment by Patricia (be0117) — 12/5/2013 @ 11:28 am

  24. “With confidence, one thing I’ll say about alcoholism and other drug abuse (and suicidality and self-harm and depression and anxiety and excess promiscuity) is it is almost always a way of self-medicating prior trauma and neglect…..”

    Former Conservative Is there anything you managed to miss in your catch all catalog of harms which may cause people to drink or use drugs, get depressed or anxious?

    Way to go out on a limb there!

    Comment by daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 12/5/2013 @ 11:42 am

  25. I am of the opinion I think it OK for Gov.t to provide free drugs and booze to all who want it but it must be consumed on site in whatever quantity they wish and the users must also be allowed to die on premise too. No medical help can be provided until the person is dead.

    The addiction problem would be solved in 1 year.

    Comment by Rodney King's Spirit (5c6cbf) — 12/5/2013 @ 11:52 am

  26. 17. Comment by Mitch (341ca0) — 12/5/2013 @ 10:13 am

    implant is a drug that interferes with the gets-you-high response to alcohol in the brain.

    Why would you want to interfere with that??

    The brain is now adjudted to the alcohol.

    I did read that glumatic acid satisfies whatever craving there is for alcohol.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (1e81da) — 12/5/2013 @ 11:58 am

  27. 22. (be0117) — 12/5/2013 @ 11:28 am

    A movie company tried to hire real homeless/vagrants in L.A. for The Soloist, and the guys even after training lasted until lunch on day 1.

    They weren’t paying them wih free beer (if they were alcoholics) and they probably wren’t paying them at all, but wanted them to wait two weeks to get their money. Too long.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (1e81da) — 12/5/2013 @ 12:00 pm

  28. What did I say?

    Two weeks?

    Probably more like three weeks till they would see any money.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (1e81da) — 12/5/2013 @ 12:01 pm

  29. Government usually leaves a bitter taste in your mouth….
    Do they give you a choice of beer?

    Comment by askeptic (b8ab92) — 12/5/2013 @ 12:12 pm

  30. Former Conservative Is there anything you managed to miss in your catch all catalog of harms which may cause people to drink or use drugs, get depressed or anxious?

    Comment by daleyrocks

    Yes because they’re all related and other things besides.

    Comment by Former Conservative (6e026c) — 12/5/2013 @ 12:20 pm

  31. Yes

    Former Conservative – What did you leave out? Why do you have no confidence in your other in your other comments here, which is nice of you to finally let us know?

    Comment by daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 12/5/2013 @ 12:32 pm

  32. 28. Comment by askeptic (b8ab92) — 12/5/2013 @ 12:12 pm

    Do they give you a choice of beer?

    The article says they don’t. The brand of beer changes depending on which one they get the best price.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (1e81da) — 12/5/2013 @ 12:36 pm

  33. It’s “Brew-102″ time.
    But, on the bright side, it won’t dull your silverware.

    Comment by askeptic (b8ab92) — 12/5/2013 @ 12:48 pm

  34. 19- thanks,nk. Now I’m hungry for lamb.

    Comment by mg (31009b) — 12/5/2013 @ 3:40 pm

  35. I’ll try this to see if my comments appear.

    William Halsted, the greatest American surgeon, became addicted to cocaine by experimenting in local anesthesia. When he was invited to move to the new Johns Hopkins hospital that was about to open, he was taken on a sea voyage by William Osler, the chief of Medicine, and when he returned he became the new chief of surgery. It was assumed for many years that he was cured of his addiction on the voyage.

    When Osler died, his papers became available and it was learned that he had converted Halsted to morphine from cocaine and Halsted remained addicted to morphine almost until his death.

    It is interesting that Halsted’s surgical technique changed during this time and he became a much more meticulous technical surgeon than he had been in his early career. There is speculation that his change was the result of the morphine.

    Narcotic addicts can function quite well in certain circumstances and this is an argument for legalization, at least of morphine like drugs. Cocaine is not a candidate for legalization as it has medical complications and makes addicts hyperactive and paranoid, a bad combination.

    Morphine only makes them constipated.

    Comment by MikeK (cd7278) — 12/5/2013 @ 4:52 pm

  36. I know someone who became addicted to heroin in medical school and, while still using, made it into an ophthalmology residency in a premier university hospital. I know another addict, of about the same age, who stole his grandparents’ wedding rings and sold them for heroin — he was living on the streets and sleeping in the subway. Different people, different stories. When I met them they were both trying to get the monkey off their backs for the same reason — they got tired of it. That simple. They didn’t want it anymore.

    Detox is easy, these days. Opiate withdrawal will not kill you even though it feels like it is going to. Alcohol (and benzo) withdrawal, on the other hand, can send you into seizures which can kill you. Both can be easily treated with palliative drugs in an in-patient clinic (not even a hospital) setting and you have the stuff out of your system in two weeks tops. The thing is to want to keep it out of your system. The way you do not want to stand in front of an oncoming train. Or cross the Grand Canyon on a tightrope. Or play Russian roulette with five loaded chambers. That attitude is worth more than all the Vivitrol in the world.

    Comment by nk (dbc370) — 12/5/2013 @ 5:32 pm

  37. 36. Comment by nk (dbc370) — 12/5/2013 @ 5:32 pm

    I know someone who became addicted to heroin in medical school and, while still using, made it into an ophthalmology residency in a premier university hospital.

    Listen, the great surgeon Dr. William Stewart Halsted (1852-1922), was a heroin addict, according to the secret history of Johns Hopkins Hosppital, written by Sir William Osler, and opened up in 1969.

    http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/library/studies/cu/cu5.html

    I know another addict, of about the same age, who stole his grandparents’ wedding rings and sold them for heroin — he was living on the streets and sleeping in the subway. Different people, different stories.

    Heroin and nicotine: These are both things that people will do almost anything to get, but if they can get them, they have no problems with their lives.

    This could be a little bit true for alcohol, but too much damages the liver.

    This is not true for cocaine, because in the case of cocaine, what someone is addicted to is not the cocaine, but the dopamine it forces the brain to release – and there’s only so much of it, and it can cause all kinds of problems. Epilepsy and heart disease.

    Detox is easy, these days. Opiate withdrawal will not kill you even though it feels like it is going to.

    I think it depends on the opiate. I read that methadone is extremely dangerous to go cold turkey on.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (1e81da) — 12/5/2013 @ 5:44 pm

  38. True kindness would be letting them hit bottom, not cushioning their descent. Offer detox, then point them to AA and/or some other private recovery agency for the real battle — staying sober when their only existing coping skill is getting drunk.

    Comment by Kevin M (536c5d) — 12/5/2013 @ 5:55 pm

  39. nk–

    #4: You have no idea what you are talking about. Really, utterly, none.

    Comment by Kevin M (536c5d) — 12/5/2013 @ 6:00 pm

  40. I wish you were right, Kevin. I really do.

    Comment by nk (dbc370) — 12/5/2013 @ 6:04 pm

  41. They get:

    2 beers in the morning , if they up I guess, at 9 a.m.

    A free lunch and two more beers.

    Two final beers at the end of the day if their work was satisfactory.

    Plus:

    1) Half a packet of rolling tobacco (which I guess if they don’t know they can sell or trade)

    2) 10 euros a day = about $13.55. Paid each day I assume.

    3) NONE OF this probably counts as income for any purpose whatsoever. Disability, unemployment, all of those things arer probably unaffected.

    “there is a long waiting list of chronic alcoholics eager to join the beer-fueled cleaning teams.” – New York Times.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (1e81da) — 12/5/2013 @ 6:09 pm

  42. Let’s recruit liberals to clean our own Augean Stables. We’ll pay them 10 euros a day, while telling them how smart/moral/lovable/superior they are. When they clock out, they’ll run a gauntlet of management suits, telling them sweet lies, like, “we really need you,”, you’re coming back tomorrow. aren’t you?”, “we’re so lucky to have someone of your intellect here,” et cetera, et cetera.

    Who knows? We may even boost employment numbers among recent college grads.

    Comment by Dirty Old Man (5b158d) — 12/5/2013 @ 6:28 pm

  43. nk,

    I do know about this stuff. I have a quarter century experience with alcoholics and addicts and AA and such. Your idea of what AA does, and what it teaches is, to be kind, shallow.

    “One Day at a Time” is the kind of thing that new people are told to get them to Day 4 from Day 3. Entry level stuff. But long term recovery requires a lot more than that kind of stopgap. Will power and self knowledge cannot keep anyone sober for very long. If each day has a 1% chance of relapse, few would stay sober a month.

    The success rate of folks that actually go on with the 12 steps is a heck of a lot better than 15% (where do you get that number?), and many who fail come back later and succeed. Most of the short-term failure is with people who are forced there before they themselves are convinced, since people who aren’t convinced don’t see the need. I’m not a big fan of court-ordered recovery. A better plan is to dump crap on them and hope they can connect the dots.

    Some people shouldn’t be there at all. Parents freak when they find out Sally is smoking pot, but that is no reason to pack her off to rehab unless she’s turning tricks to get pot or something.

    But AA itself does work quite well for those who work it with a will. There are some 2 million living Americans sober in AA or NA or such. Comfortably more than are signed up for Obamacare.

    Comment by Kevin M (536c5d) — 12/5/2013 @ 6:35 pm

  44. FWIW, Kevin M, nk is also speaking from his direct experience, as he has alluded to before and as above (i.e., IV alcohol to prevent the DT’s); your experiences and opinions are both informed, but from different perspectives, and, presumably, different biases.

    I agree it is not kind to simply enable someone to stay stuck in an addiction.
    But some people get “sick and tired of being sick and tired” relatively unscathed,
    others die before they “hit bottom”.

    Prior to benzodiazepines I believe it was more common to give alcoholics beer while in the hospital being treated for something specific other than alcohol abuse. As said above, alcohol withdrawal can be fatal, so to force a person to encounter a potentially fatal situation against their will is a bit questionable, even if done with good intentions.
    But I thought that practice went out when valium came into use.

    Comment by MD in Philly (f9371b) — 12/5/2013 @ 7:50 pm

  45. MD,

    Old time AAs kept alcohol in the house to bring people down. I keep it for cooking. But that is not what the article speak of doing. I really wasn’t responding to nk on that point, but on the dissing of AA. A your-words, my-eyes thing.

    Comment by Kevin M (536c5d) — 12/5/2013 @ 8:48 pm

  46. MD in Philly – My views are also closer to Kevin M’s than nk’s. I would prefer not to have a surgeon operating on me who is high on heroin even if some people believe it is a great drug. Sorry, I’m just a fuddy duddy that way.

    Comment by daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 12/5/2013 @ 9:34 pm

  47. this blog is a hotbed of anti-heroin-addict surgeon bigotry

    Comment by happyfeet (8ce051) — 12/5/2013 @ 9:40 pm

  48. I would never, repeat never, discourage anyone from participating in AA or its twelve steps, or in any twelve-step program*, or in any non-twelve-step program. Whatever works. Just in case anyone thought I was saying that. And I’ll leave it at that.

    *CMA meetings are the liveliest I’ve been to, BTW. ;)

    Comment by nk (dbc370) — 12/5/2013 @ 10:03 pm

  49. Give me librium or give me death!

    Comment by daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 12/5/2013 @ 10:27 pm

  50. Mr. Feets – Nobody here said nothing against a little recreational crack smoking, so the thread has that going for it.

    Comment by daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 12/5/2013 @ 10:37 pm

  51. i just call em like a see em Mr. daley, but that’s a good point and one I must confess i overlooked in my zeal to pronounce judgment

    Comment by happyfeet (8ce051) — 12/5/2013 @ 10:38 pm

  52. Illinois has medical marijuana, now, happyfeet. Only a couple of clinics on Michigan Avenue, so far, but I expect there will be more. Just like California. In case you were wondering. And so much for Gonzales v. Raich, not one of AG AG’s shiniest moments to begin with.

    Comment by nk (dbc370) — 12/5/2013 @ 10:50 pm

  53. it’s so gay Mr. nk

    what medical marijuana does is

    you end up devoting gobs of commercial real estate to selling just one effing product

    in real america once you decided medical marijuana was a thing every liquor store would be grandfathered a medical marijuana license

    but we don’t live in real america no mores we live in barack obama’s nasty corrupted dirty socialist one

    Comment by happyfeet (8ce051) — 12/5/2013 @ 10:58 pm

  54. choom choom

    Comment by happyfeet (8ce051) — 12/5/2013 @ 11:00 pm

  55. IV ethanol bags are handy to have on hand, in case you get a case of methanol poisoning…or anti-freeze ingestion.

    but i love the only approved indication:

    Indications and Usage for Alcohol in Dextrose

    5% Alcohol in 5% Dextrose Injection, USP is indicated for parenteral replenishment of fluid and carbohydrate calories, especially to increase caloric intake in patients whose oral intake is restricted or inadequate to maintain nutritional requirements.

    cheers!

    Comment by redc1c4 (abd49e) — 12/5/2013 @ 11:43 pm

  56. I don’t even want to do the math but it has to be the most expensive drink I ever had. ;)

    Per the NIH:

    A standard drink is any drink that contains about 14 grams of pure alcohol (about 0.6 fluid ounces or 1.2 tablespoons). Below are standard drink equivalents as well as the number of standard drinks in different container sizes for each beverage. These are approximate, as different brands and types of beverages vary in their actual alcohol content.

    given a bill for 150ml, if you were getting 5% solution, you got 7.5 grams of ethanol, or half a standard drink. if were on 10%, you got a whole one, minus what was primed out, left in the tube, etc…

    yeah, you overpaid. ;-)

    Comment by redc1c4 (abd49e) — 12/6/2013 @ 12:25 am

  57. CMA meetings are the liveliest I’ve been to, BTW

    Early CA was pretty wild, too. But yes, whatever works. One size does not fit all.

    Comment by Kevin M (536c5d) — 12/6/2013 @ 1:11 am

  58. daley,
    I prefer surgeons not addicted to opiates as well, but I don’t have a problem with someone picking up my trash with 2 beers in them.

    Guess what? I saw a blurb about schools in Colorado having more problems with students on pot…
    why in the world would that be the case?

    And I guess I’ll crash the thread, I am against even a little recreational crack smoking.

    Comment by MD in Philly (f9371b) — 12/6/2013 @ 5:17 am

  59. medical marijuana co-op clinics here are run by magicians… they can book gross monthly sales of $100K… but get robbed of 4350K cash on hand.

    I worked for a woman who defends in federal court and who specializes in recovering seized assets.
    She once told me that most clinic owners had problems breaking old habits and couldn’t stop doing “cash only” deals in and out the side door.
    So they wind up facing tax evasion charges.

    I’m for legalizing pot, but its gonna need some sort of tax stamp and enforcement like alcohol and cigarettes

    Comment by steveg (794291) — 12/6/2013 @ 9:42 pm

  60. Yes, I believe the alcoholism covers up other trauma, and that’s why it’s useless not to deal with the whole person. The guys in L.A. failed to show up for work on the movie not because of alcohol but because of their own lifestyles.

    Comment by Patricia (be0117) — 12/7/2013 @ 8:53 am

  61. ‘welcome to the party, pal;

    http://dailycaller.com/2013/12/05/left-leaning-journalist-this-white-house-seems-to-want-only-state-media/

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 12/7/2013 @ 9:26 am

  62. 60. Comment by Patricia (be0117) — 12/7/2013 @ 8:53 am

    The guys in L.A. failed to show up for work on the movie not because of alcohol but because of their own lifestyles.

    Maybe because they wouldn’t get paud for nearly three weeks, and they needed money that day?

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman (1e81da) — 12/7/2013 @ 5:44 pm

  63. The success rate of folks that actually go on with the 12 steps is a heck of a lot better than 15% (where do you get that number?), and many who fail come back later and succeed. Most of the short-term failure is with people who are forced there before they themselves are convinced, since people who aren’t convinced don’t see the need. I’m not a big fan of court-ordered recovery. A better plan is to dump crap on them and hope they can connect the dots.

    Comment by Mark (3fb37a) — 12/8/2013 @ 5:34 pm

  64. This would drive someone to drink;

    http://theoptimisticconservative.wordpress.com/2013/12/05/great-news-u-s-has-security-plan-for-the-west-bank/

    Comment by narciso (3fec35) — 12/8/2013 @ 5:58 pm

  65. Wait, we have pot dispensaries on Michigan Avenue? I live on Michigan Avenue. Any specifics?

    Comment by carlitos (49ef9f) — 12/9/2013 @ 5:44 am

  66. They’re not dispensaries; they are a couple of medical clinics. Little information, your doctor should be able to tell you more, and I imagine that he’ll need to refer you to them. This is part surmise, but it seems to me they need to have a Schedule I license (from the DEA), because Illinois is not producing medical marijuana yet and they have to get it across state lines, so that’s why there’s only the two I’ve heard of. (?) On the comprehensive Illinois law, it should be in full effect, with (wishfully) local home brew by the end of 2014.

    Comment by nk (dbc370) — 12/9/2013 @ 7:18 am

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