Patterico's Pontifications

So comment away.

Patterico (feda6b) — 4/11/2012 @ 7:23 pm

Way off topic – DRJ is the most kind and sweet lady that you could ever hope to meet. Maddie loves the bows, wore all the flower ones to bed.

Madeline Grace is now 4 😉

JD (bf9ca8) — 4/11/2012 @ 7:28 pm

This is all just so sad.

JD (bf9ca8) — 4/11/2012 @ 7:29 pm

You met DRJ? Jealousy is not the sufficient word. Call you back when I find it.

nk (52d02a) — 4/11/2012 @ 7:36 pm

I could be totally off on this, but I seriously wonder if the special prosecutor feared for her own safety or at least public safety in the event she didn’t bring charges.

Gerald A (cc0aaa) — 4/11/2012 @ 7:38 pm

Oops. Not in person, nk. Yet.

JD (bf9ca8) — 4/11/2012 @ 7:41 pm

There should not have been a special prosecutor. That is the first question a defense lawyer should ask. Why a special prosecutor and not the duly elected by the people one? And if the answer is not sufficient the charge by information is invalid.

nk (52d02a) — 4/11/2012 @ 7:42 pm

I sure as hell hope that Zimmerman gets a good lawyer who will resist a change of venue. There’s already been prosecutor shopping by his accusers, let’s not there be forum shopping.

(In my lawyer fantasy world, if I had defended Timothy McVeigh in Oklahoma City, he would have been acquitted.)

nk (52d02a) — 4/11/2012 @ 7:50 pm

If you don’t like Justified, there is something wrong with you.

JD (318f81) — 4/11/2012 @ 8:00 pm

It’s a disarmingly good show, JD.

Simon Jester (53100b) — 4/11/2012 @ 8:02 pm

Ditto that Simon & JD. Although, I miss Wynona. Even her cool name.

Dana (4eca6e) — 4/11/2012 @ 8:03 pm

Christmas came early for Nancy Grace this year

happyfeet (3c92a1) — 4/11/2012 @ 8:07 pm

I like Marshal Dillon, Gunsmoke, Have Gun Will Travel, Rawhide, Wagon Train, The Fairly Odd Parents, and Phineas and Ferb.

nk (52d02a) — 4/11/2012 @ 8:07 pm

As a non-lawyer, I have a lot of questions about this case. I wonder if the President stepping into it with his “If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon.” comment, could that be construed as undue influence – not only with the public, but also with the prosecutor’s office? Could that not be perceived as some sort of tacit push-and-prod in a specific direction?

Also, it would appear that with this 2nd degree murder charge, the Stand Your Ground law is also on trial. In reading Florida’s definition of 2nd degree murder, I don’t see how a person can be charged with it if under the SYG law??? Isn’t it contradictory?

The unlawful killing of a human being, when perpetrated by any act imminently dangerous to another and evincing a depraved mind regardless of human life, although without any premeditated design to effect the death of any particular individual, is murder in the second degree and constitutes a felony of the first degree, punishable by imprisonment for a term of years not exceeding life or as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

Dana (4eca6e) — 4/11/2012 @ 8:08 pm

Natalie Zea’s been mostly on another show, this season, that’s why she’s mostly out of the picture
except occasional appearances, Joelle Carter’s Eva
has had to carry the freight

narciso (dfa41c) — 4/11/2012 @ 8:09 pm

Nancy Grace looks like she would be very good at that sexual act Scalia disapproves of, happyfeet.

nk (52d02a) — 4/11/2012 @ 8:10 pm

Is Wynona the one with the puffy face?

daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 4/11/2012 @ 8:11 pm

Anyone who does not agree with the “stand your ground” law, or concealed carry permits, should be bounced from the jury. Since all of Trayvon’s supports seem to hate the “stand your ground” law, that should help Zimmerman get acquitted.

Daryl Herbert (faf269) — 4/11/2012 @ 8:11 pm

No, Ashley Judd has the puffy face and wrote a puff piece about in the DB.

If they don’t ask for a change of venue, how on earth will there be any possibility of securing an unbiased jury, nk?

Dana (4eca6e) — 4/11/2012 @ 8:14 pm

That’s not what stand your ground means. It just means you don’t need to exhaust every means of escape. It does not mean “Don’t come to my space in a public place you have a right to be unarmed n-word”.

nk (52d02a) — 4/11/2012 @ 8:17 pm

I see an illustration is in order;

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0954036/

narciso (dfa41c) — 4/11/2012 @ 8:19 pm

There will be no unbiased jury, nowhere, Dana. Stay close to home where maybe people will care for the truth.

nk (52d02a) — 4/11/2012 @ 8:20 pm

But I hope he is being charged based on evidence and not public pressure.

How cute!

kjl291 (f81f1b) — 4/11/2012 @ 8:22 pm

I understand that, nk, re unbiased jury – virtually impossible, but don’t you think that perhaps farther from the epicenter, there may be less intense passion and a less emotional desire for truth to come out?

Dana (4eca6e) — 4/11/2012 @ 8:25 pm

As a nonlawyer I have a question or two, maybe someone here (lawyer or no) can enlighten me.

As I understand it, the murder 2 Zim is being charged with is the most severe charge they could bring against him unless they went to a grand jury.

Any defense lawyer with pulse shouldn’t have a problem getting several people favorably predisposed towards Zim (to various) degrees.

It just seems that with the higher burden of proof (which I can’t see how that proof exists) with murder 2 as opposed to going for manslaughter, hasn’t this almost guaranteed a hung jury?

And anything short of conviction will result in riots and an orgy of violence, it seems, and people will die.

Thanks Obama, Holder, Sharpton, Jackson, NBC, ABC, CNN, MSNBC. You should be the ones on trial.

kjl291 (f81f1b) — 4/11/2012 @ 8:28 pm

And anything short of conviction will result in riots and an orgy of violence, it seems, and people will die.

Is this an indicator that they have a strong case (it did take 3 weeks for the announcement today) based on evidence not yet made public, or just hoping to appease now and take their chances?

Dana (4eca6e) — 4/11/2012 @ 8:35 pm

Change of venue can be changing the place or bringing in a jury from another place. You don’t want a jury who either could not care less or wants the case to be over so they can go home. You want a jury with a stake in the result of the verdict on the community.

nk (52d02a) — 4/11/2012 @ 8:44 pm

Originally, the local prosecutor didn’t think there was enough evidence for an arrest. If this isn’t because of “public pressure,” what is it then?

Don’t forget that NBC faked the 911 call to make it look like Zimmerman was using a racial slur, which he was not.

Does anyone besides me remember when then President Nixon opined on Charles Manson’s guilt and almost caused a mistrial? Why is it fine and dandy for our current president to take sides in an ongoing investigation?

DN (d1a4f3) — 4/11/2012 @ 8:47 pm

Ol Bub – have there been any changes to what is known?

JD (318f81) — 4/11/2012 @ 8:53 pm

Better than a lawyer is a good bagman. For example, Johnnie Cochran was OJ’s. He gave a million dollars to a doctor to testify that OJ could not raise his arm above his shoulder. We don’t know how much he gave to Judge Ito and Marsha Clark to throw the case.

nk (52d02a) — 4/11/2012 @ 9:02 pm

Shipwrecked – are lesser includeds included?

JD (318f81) — 4/11/2012 @ 9:11 pm

(In my lawyer fantasy world, if I had defended Timothy McVeigh in Oklahoma City, he would have been acquitted.)

-nk

Pretty much tells me what I need to know about you, nk

CalFed (5b899d) — 4/11/2012 @ 9:16 pm

That I’m a Type B personality disorder flamboyant fantacist, CalFed? My psychiarist told me that already.

nk (52d02a) — 4/11/2012 @ 9:29 pm

I think at thiss point it is definitely in Zimmerman’s interest to have a trial. God knows he’s getting a kangaroo court in the press. If he is to have any chance of having a normal life, this has to be put to rest one way or the other.

Of course, there’s the possibility that an acquittal will just lead to a federal charge, but if he beats both bites at the apple he might have a chance. Dicey even then, perhaps, but it must suck to be Zimmerman now.

Now, should the defense what the trial televised? If they have a good case, I think they should. If they can refute enough of it to get the doubt, probably. The only problem will be witnesses who feel intimidated or refuse to testify in defense on camera.

But all in all, I think this is in Zimmerman’s interests. Too much careless reporting to just let it be now.

Kevin M (bf8ad7) — 4/11/2012 @ 9:37 pm

… WANT the trial televised…

Kevin M (bf8ad7) — 4/11/2012 @ 9:38 pm

Can one of the lawyers here explain why “stand your ground” would apply here at all as opposed to self defense? How do you retreat or give ground when you are on your back with an attacker on top of you beating your head into the concrete?

If Zimmerman was black and his attacker white would he be on trial or would the race hustlers be screaming about white man’s justice at any hint that he did not have the right to defend himself.

I see a series of trials by the Feds until one sticks if he is acquitted. This will make a blatant mockery of the idea of double jeopardy laws. I picture a black man in the 1950s South killing a white man in self defense and facing this kind of official bigotry as we are seeing today. I really hate racism.

Machinist (b6f7da) — 4/11/2012 @ 9:49 pm

Pretty much tells me what I need to know about you, nk

— Hey, you weren’t there, bub! The minute that building got in McVeigh’s face on a public sidewalk it was ON!

Icy (f43e47) — 4/11/2012 @ 9:57 pm

Given all the publicity, and slanted reporting, I’m trying to figure out how they can possibly seat an unbiased jury.

Steven Den Beste (99cfa1) — 4/11/2012 @ 10:08 pm

This whole dog-and-pony show around Zimmerman being charged is making me think about the Duke lacrosse debacle.

I dunno. It’s weird.

Leviticus (870be5) — 4/11/2012 @ 10:14 pm

_____________________________________________

But I hope he is being charged based on evidence and not public pressure.

That hope, regrettably, may be not much less naive than believing the OJ jury was impartial, apolitical and truly sensible.

Beyond that, controversies like this have to be placed against the backdrop of studies and observations, going back decades, that indicate public schools where kids like Trayvon Martin are rather pervasive have more than a few teachers who suffer from a condition known as “battle fatigue.”

Mark (411533) — 4/11/2012 @ 10:18 pm

Machinist,

I think the reason “stand your ground” keeps coming up is that it single-handedly renders moot the difficult issues of whether Zimmerman tried to escape before the fistfight ensued, whether he tried to escape after the fistfight ensued, and whether his attempts were reasonably exhaustive.

I think provocation of the confrontation would undermine a self-defense claim with or without a “stand your ground” law, though.

Leviticus (870be5) — 4/11/2012 @ 10:22 pm

what i don’t understand is why the Left is so upset with a late term abortion in this case when everyone from Obumber on down has been stridently in favor of them in particular and supporting Planned Parenthood in general previously.

redc1c4 (403dff) — 4/11/2012 @ 10:42 pm

Leviticus,
Do you mean that Z. following and watching him was provocation for the assault by T.?

You feel that because Zimmerman was following him he had no right to defend himself from a potentially lethal, sustained, physical attack?

I have never heard this proposed before where there was any recognition of self defense. Is there any evidence that Zimmerman touched or threatened T. before he punched him in the face? Did following him justify punching him and beating his head on the ground?

Machinist (b6f7da) — 4/11/2012 @ 11:08 pm

This is really a setup (that isn’t a slam dunk but pretty close).

This is merely a repeat of the process that the police went through and then released him, but this time with a jury. From all the evidence available to the first prosecutor, Zimmerman can beat a 2nd degree murder charge (but possibly not a lesser charge). I fully expect at the end of the process that Zimmerman will walk.

The fact that Zimmerman was in custody immediately tells me that he may have suggested this course of action. It serves him in that it calms things down, makes the evidence do to the talking (not the press or Rev. Al), and leaves him a course to where he can be seen in public again with a more remote likelihood that he will be gunned down. I say more likely because some will not be satisfied if (and probably when) Zimmerman is acquitted.

[note: fished from spam filter. –Stashiu]

Neo (d1c681) — 4/11/2012 @ 11:11 pm

I don’t see that he had a chance to retreat before being knocked down and certainly not with Trayvon on top of him. Has there been new evidence that Zimmerman was warned or that he touched or tried to touch Trayvon?

Machinist (b6f7da) — 4/11/2012 @ 11:11 pm

Machinist,

I hope this prosecutor has the solid forensics to warrant a 2nd instead of man.

Politically speaking if this was a policial calculation – overcharging to me would make any acquittal even more incendiary than a no bill

EricPWJohnson (e83e82) — 4/11/2012 @ 11:20 pm

@ Machinist: Zimmerman is “white” and his “victim” wasn’t…

no other “facts” are desired or necessary.

redc1c4 (403dff) — 4/11/2012 @ 11:21 pm

political – not policial –

EricPWJohnson (e83e82) — 4/11/2012 @ 11:26 pm

The nature of the charge as it is being reported is that the amount of force used by Zimmerman in response to the situation was unjustified, thereby taking him out from under the self-defense statute.

I think the basic facts of the confrontation aren’t going to change much when the evidence is put on, and I believe the prosecution is going to have a difficult time establishing guilt beyond a reasonable doubt when you only have one eyewitness account of the struggle, and that is going to come from Zimmerman. From what has been reported, there is nothing that will likely prevent him from taking the stand. Without some smoking guy to go after his story, or another witness to contradict it, I am very doubtful that they will convince 12 jurors that the use of deadly force was unjustified.

shipwreckedcrew (1afa7d) — 4/11/2012 @ 11:27 pm

The dog & pony show here involves charging him with 2nd degree murder to placate those that are calling for his head, and then most likely pleading it down to manslaughter.

Icy (e372e3) — 4/11/2012 @ 11:31 pm

JD @ 33 — states handle lesser included differently. Some states require that they be specifically be charged in the alternative, others say they are always implicitly in play when a more serious offense is charged, and the Court should instruct on whatever offense would be supported by the evidence as presented at trial. I don’t know the rules in Florida.

As for this being a “special prosecutor”, as I understand it the State Attorney in this particular judicial district (Florida has districts that include more than one county, and they are each individually elected) recused himself after all the outcry over him not charging the case. The Gov. then made a decision to appoint a State Attorney from another judicial district to take a look at the case. That is how the current prosecutor came to be involved. The Gov is a conservative Republican, and AG is a conservative Republican, and most of the elected State Attorneys are conservative Republicans. I think it would be a stretch to argue this is a political prosecution meant to appease liberal squawking.

shipwreckedcrew (1afa7d) — 4/11/2012 @ 11:39 pm

Icy — if I was a defense attorney, i would not plead him out. There are no witnesses (that are known of) as to the beginning of the confrontation, and the only witness on that key point is going to be Zimmerman. He doesn’t seem to have anything in his background that keeps him from getting on the stand and testifying. If he has injuries to the back of his head, I think he’s pretty much home free — based on what’s known about the case now.

The one big unknown is the content of the various statements he made to the police when questioned.

shipwreckedcrew (1afa7d) — 4/11/2012 @ 11:41 pm

Nadia Naffe twitter is up.

Noodles (3681c4) — 4/11/2012 @ 11:51 pm

Either plead nolo contendere to manslaughter OR the prosecution reduces the charge independent of any agreement. Just sayin’, it’s a possibility.

Icy (e372e3) — 4/11/2012 @ 11:51 pm

Here is her take on the matter.

Nadia Naffe ‏ @NadiaNaffe
Sanford Police Dept. devalued Trayvon Martin’s life for 45 days. A child killer roamed free, while racists rallied around him

It’s so on point (from the leftist view) and over the top I had to LOL.

Noodles (3681c4) — 4/11/2012 @ 11:56 pm

I already said a lot on the previous Z/M thread, and narciso posted a good link to legalinsurrection.

Many are talking about the “Stand your ground” law, but people at legalinsurrection say that doesn’t apply at all with the “facts” that have been released.

The incident happened, it was felt by the local prosecutor that there was no case for prosecution. Time went by, outside race hustler’s got involved, news reports from at least 3 different media outlets that suggested a racial motivation were edited or slanted to give it that appearance. It has been widely reported (see previous post by host) that there is one witness to the event, and that person’s story matches that of Z. The way this has already been tried in the media makes me wonder if there would not have already been reports of more condemning evidence if there was any.

Obama, Holder, and the special prosecutor have made statements in agreement with the cry of Sharpton and others to get “Justice for Trevon”, which apparently means “get the SOB that killed him”.

Meanwhile, nothing has been said (that I have seen) about the New Black Panther Party advertising a bounty for Z “dead or alive” and a local NBPP exclaiming that the honky m-fing crackers are gonna get what’s coming to them.

This has been fanned into flames of race-based hatred. A whole bunch of people are committed to the idea that Z (a “white Hispanic”) shot Martin without cause because he was a young black in a hoodie and for no other reason. There is no need for a trial except to determine if he will be executed by the state or by those “getting justice” while he is in prison. If “Trevon doesn’t get justice” the mobs threaten violence (and “race war with blood in the street”) and Holder intends to proceed with fed civil rights investigation/charges. Instead of being a voice of moderation, Holder has also spoken to a group of Sharpton’s and praised him and them for their efforts.

This has been made terrible for everyone. This does nothing good for race relations. George’s father has commented on whether he would have been charged if his name was Jorge (“Gomez”, or whatever Mexican mother’s maiden name was).

One old hippie bumper sticker I will agree with, “No Justice for All, No Justice at All”. It is true for all colors in all combinations.

I wonder how many poll stations in philly will be monitored by NBPP members in paramilitary garb in November.

MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 4/12/2012 @ 1:33 am

There are no witnesses (that are known of) as to the beginning of the confrontation, and the only witness on that key point is going to be Zimmerman.
Comment by shipwreckedcrew

IIRC, I guess the one witness saw the situation starting with Z on the ground with M on top of him ~~slamming his head to the ground~~ gently rocking his head in the grass, and we only have Z’s testimony that M struck him without direct provocation and knocked him to the ground.

MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 4/12/2012 @ 1:39 am

One last comment. nk’s comments on trial location and jury selection seem contrary to common opinion, but I had heard one report that said that actually, as a whole, the local community was not as polarized as the news would suggest, and that there would be locals of all ethnic backgrounds more concerned with the truth. That to me is the only bright spot in all of this, but it seems that perhaps some in government are asking others to stand up and be brave instead of “standing their ground” themselves. I appreciate those responsible for the public good are in a hard spot, but I’m not sure offering up Zimmerman as a potential sacrifice is called for, at least from what we know.

Yes, there may be things about the case we don’t know about, I just find it hard to believe there is much to condemn Z that has been kept secret.

MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 4/12/2012 @ 2:02 am

Nadia Naffe ‏ @NadiaNaffe
Sanford Police Dept. devalued Trayvon Martin’s life for 45 days. A child killer roamed free, while racists rallied around him

— 1) By Naffe’s standards the Sanford Police Dept is STILL ‘devaluing’ Trayvon’s life, since they had (to the best that I can determine — he’s in a county lockup) ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with what happened today.

2) She implies, with no evidence whatsoever, that there was a high probability of Z killing another “child”.

3) In saying “racists rallied around him” she declares Z to be a confirmed racist by association. Classy.

Icy (e372e3) — 4/12/2012 @ 2:26 am

Ol Bub (aka Ryan/Jason/ect…) has been banned per Patterico and his comments removed. Naughty boy has not only used several names, but several IP’s. Akismet now treats him as spam. If this affects his comments at other sites, good. 😉

Stashiu3 (cd7afe) — 4/12/2012 @ 3:01 am

The last ‘witness’ the perosecutor seems to have talked to, was Terayv on’s girlfriend, that was mentioned on global grind on the 3rd, she might have been the one that tipped the balance.

Nadia, never dissapoints, does she, maybe Okeefe is somehow involved (I kid, I kid)

narciso (dfa41c) — 4/12/2012 @ 3:46 am

Sorry about all the typos, too much coffee;

http://globalgrind.com/news/trayvon-martin-girlfriend-talks-special-prosecutor-details

narciso (dfa41c) — 4/12/2012 @ 3:53 am

It’s all political now. This will be a redux of the Casey Anthony case.

A twist will be Holder bringing Federal criminal charges against Zimmerman in October to get out the vote.

cedarhill (e1e556) — 4/12/2012 @ 4:18 am

As we saw in the Rodney King case, federal courts, and I mean the 9th Circuit the most liberal, will enforce double jeopardy standards, if not exactly in those terms, if a federal prosecution follows a fair state prosecution. In other words, DOJ cannot act vindictively, by indicting, under the Civil Rights Act, just because they didn’t like the result of the state trial, when the state trial was not fixed, like say in a case of a Klansman acquitted by a local jury in Indiana.

nk (52d02a) — 4/12/2012 @ 5:11 am

Of course it is political. duh!

^..^(____)~~~

Cheshirecat (edf506) — 4/12/2012 @ 5:18 am

Pretty much tells me what I need to know about you, nk

– Hey, you weren’t there, bub! The minute that building got in McVeigh’s face on a public sidewalk it was ON!

Comment by Icy — 4/11/2012 @ 9:57 pm

Icy, I did a lot of post-conviction work. I saw a lot of people being sold down the river by their defense attorneys. My respect for prosecutors grew as I fought them while my contempt for public defenders increased. One bitch told me that she no longer interviewed her clients in jail because it “smelled bad and they smelled bad”.

I’ve had my day, and I hope you never need a lawyer, but should you get into trouble, get one who cares only for you.

nk (52d02a) — 4/12/2012 @ 5:21 am

Icy, that sounds a lot like Charles Johnson. It’s also crazy talk.

She’s from florida, and the law there bars arrest in a self-defense killing until there is probable cause, andt there apparently was none.

Whatever has developed (an incriminating statement, forensics, or bad faith prosectution) remains to be seen.

In NN’s crazy world, it’s justice to attent the distortions of a paycheck driven wrongful-death attorney’s press releases, and ignore actual evidence, and to refuse to accept doctored stories and doctored telephone calls and doctored video.

THAT is racist. Not the invention of skittles and tea and porches and the baby pictures to get the “white” “jew” trying to stop some of the recent break ins and thefts – by people who fit Trayvon’s description.

Sarahw (b0e533) — 4/12/2012 @ 5:51 am

My opinion is that Zimmerman was a mall ninja who thought his Kel-Tec was a magic wand that made him invulnerable. That does not mean that he should be lynched, either literally or judicially.

nk (52d02a) — 4/12/2012 @ 5:57 am

Really, and he had drawn his weapon, how many of the other 46 calls, he had made?

narciso (dfa41c) — 4/12/2012 @ 5:58 am

The girlfriend is reputed to have said there was an argument.

Is she liar? I think she might be. We’ll see if her story hangs together.

I want to know if Trayvon was really breaking into homes in the area and/ or using drugs/getting stoned and walking around. Not because that sheds any clear light on the need to use deadly force, but so that people will shut up about Trayvon being unreasonably suspected because of his race.

There is plenty in Zimmerman’s description to justify a call to report him, but it seems very many people think that can only be reasonable if (in hindsight) was *actually* up to no good. Z. Being right is not a test of reasonable, but it seems to be the one that is applied.

Sarahw (b0e533) — 4/12/2012 @ 5:59 am

I wouldn’t want to be in a neighborhood watch program in Florida I’d rather just get bars on my windows and lower your property values I think

happyfeet (3c92a1) — 4/12/2012 @ 6:04 am

I am getting this feeling that if he’s acquitted the home addresses of the jurors will suddenly be popping up in various places.

Gerald A (cc0aaa) — 4/12/2012 @ 6:04 am

_________________________________________________

I’d rather just get bars on my windows and lower your property values I think

Or do what most people do, regardless of their political preferences, regardless of their comments in public: They vote with their feet and the moving van.

The clincher is the people who philosophically give a million benefits of the doubt to a Trayvon Martin, yet who will be no less resistant to the dynamics of voting with their feet. Or, for that matter, who will be no less resistant to the idea that when it comes to their precious, dear children, it’s probably better to not send them to a public school whose student body is chock full of kids with characteristics very similar to a Trayvon Martin.

Mark (411533) — 4/12/2012 @ 7:38 am

mostly I just meant that George is being punished for trying to help his neighbors in Barack Obama’s America Mr. Mark

happyfeet (3c92a1) — 4/12/2012 @ 7:41 am

I think there is a lesson to be learned here: don’t talk to the police. As soon as the cops showed up, he should have lawyered up and not said another word. Instead he waved his right to counsel, and even walked the police through step by step of his recollection while they video taped it.

No, no, no. Never talk to the police. “Anything you say can AND WILL be used against you.” not for you. You may have nothing to hide, but they have something to prove.

Ghost (6f9de7) — 4/12/2012 @ 8:12 am

I’m surprised and disappointed that this wasn’t referred to a grand jury. If there’s a legitimate reason for that, I haven’t heard it, and I don’t know of one. By contrast, there are many good reasons for prosecutors to go that route. Dunno if our host wants to weigh in on that subject generally, but I’m curious as to Patterico’s views.

Beldar (8fdc17) — 4/12/2012 @ 8:36 am

Something very interesting is going on. Travon Martin’s family, especially his mother, and their attorney, are preparing people for an acquittal.

Travon’s mother said yesterday at a “gathering of civil rights activists.”

We simply wanted an arrest – and we got it

Martin family lawyer Ben Crump said:

Zimmerman will have his day in court, and Trayvon’s family will have their day in court. That’s all we’ve been asking for.

Trayvon’s father said:

This is just the beginning. We have a long way to go.

They sound much less certain than the prosecutor, who claimed:

It is the search for justice for Trayvon that has brought us here. We did not come to this decision lightly. We do not prosecute by public pressure, nor by petition.

Al Sharpton’s spin on that was:

But they decided to review it based on public pressure. Had there not been public pressure, there would not have been a second look .

angela Corey had said:

We have numerous homicides in which an arrest was not made immediately. To us, it did not seem unusual.

The thing is though, they all have to fear what the federal courts could do.

This morning I heard an excerpt of Trayvon’s mother saying she wanted to know if he knew he was a juvenile , did he think Trayvon had a gun?

Now wait. There’s nothing about not having reached your 18th birthday that makes it impossible for you to do something seriously wrong. As it is, George Zimmerman identified him as being in his late teens and I doubt it was a matter of concern in his mind if he had passed his 18th birthday or not.

As for having a gun, Zimmerman probably assumed no, since Trayvon was at first running from him, and since he was punching and pummeling him and not attempting to shoot him, and carrying a gun is far from universal.

But he is reported to have feared that he (Trayvon Martin) could grab his (George Zimmerman’s) gun and then shoot him.

Zimmerman may have faced the difficult task of not just preventing himself from being hurt, but protecting his gun. That would be a handicap in a fistfight.

Sammy Finkelman (8843f6) — 4/12/2012 @ 9:04 am

They need an arrest, for the subsequent civil suit, even if the prosecution falls through, that has been the Sharpton pattern,

narciso (871b3e) — 4/12/2012 @ 9:10 am

I am getting this feeling that if he’s acquitted the home addresses of the jurors will suddenly be popping up in various places.

I’m pretty sure I would not want to be a defense witness with my face all over the TV.

Kevin M (bf8ad7) — 4/12/2012 @ 9:12 am

Comment by Beldar — 4/12/2012 @ 8:36 am

I’m surprised and disappointed that this wasn’t referred to a grand jury. If there’s a legitimate reason for that, I haven’t heard it, and I don’t know of one.

I’m beginning to think the reason was that Angela Corey thought the grand jury might very well not vote to indict, and there was a lot of pressure coming down from the federal Department of Justice to charge George Zimmerman. Federal funds and co-operation in other investigations might have been at stake. I just wonder what kind of messages were going back and forth between Eric Holder’s Department of Justice and the office of Angela Corey. (who is normally the State Attorney for the Jacksonville area)

If the grand jury had indicted they probably would have given a detailed explanation as to how they thought this went down and why it fit the elements of a crime. Angela Corey said just about nothing about that.

If a grand jury had not voted to indict, nothing might have been disclosed to the public, or even Trayvon’s parents, and the federal government probably would ave taken over the investigation.

Sammy Finkelman (8843f6) — 4/12/2012 @ 9:18 am

George Zimmerman got another attorney yesterday. It is Mark O’Mara, who had been speaking about the case on television:

http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/entertainment_tv_tvblog/2012/04/george-zimmerman-former-wkmg-analyst-mark-omara-is-his-new-lawyer.html

On WKMG Tuesday night, O’Mara weighed in on attorneys Uhrig and Craig Sonner, who announced they couldn’t represent Zimmerman anymore.

O’Mara said he was “surprised that two attorneys who were no longer counsel talked for an hour about a case that they’re no longer involved in. I think that was a little problematic. You’re not supposed to talk about a client’s case, for the most part at all, and yet they answered dozens of questions.”

Anchor Lauren Rowe asked: “What if another attorney comes along and starts to represent him? Would this news conference actually be detrimental to their case?”

O’Mara replied: “Very potentially. If George Zimmerman came to me tomorrow and said, ‘I want you to represent me,’ I would look at the press conference and say, ‘Mr. Uhrig identified a potential defense. He outlined the facts of what happened, and he cemented what George Zimmerman can now say.’ And that’s problematic if other evidence comes out that conflicts with it.”

It seems like George Zimmerman did indeed come to him tomorrow and say “I want you to represent me.”

Sammy Finkelman (8843f6) — 4/12/2012 @ 9:24 am

I’m pretty sure I would not want to be a defense witness with my face all over the TV.

Yeah that too. So far we don’t know the witness(es) who are said to support Zimmerman’s case. What happens if their names suddenly become public prior to the trial?

Gerald A (cc0aaa) — 4/12/2012 @ 9:37 am

I just wonder what kind of messages were going back and forth between Eric Holder’s Department of Justice and the office of Angela Corey.

Would it be proper for Holder to be saying anything to her? I know that wouldn’t stop Holder of course.

Gerald A (cc0aaa) — 4/12/2012 @ 9:40 am

Does the “Special” in “Special Prosecutor” mean “retarded”?

[note: released from moderation. –Stashiu]

mojo (8096f2) — 4/12/2012 @ 9:41 am

Yesterday, O’Mara said:

I hope we can keep him safe. I want him to get to his trial. He’s frightened. We’re trying to work out the best way to keep this calm.

He also said:

He’s concerned about getting a fair trial. I don’t think a case like this should be tried here. (pointing to the cameras in front of him)

I cannot imagine living in George Zimmerman’s shoes for the past several weeks. Truly, it must be frightening not to be able to go into a 7-Eleven.

All quotes so far from the New York Daily News which has been better on this since a week ago Wednesday (although they ran a story about a neo-Nazi group supposedly planning to go to Sanford in support of Zimmerman, although they said they had some qualms about it because he is Hispanic)

They have an editorial today which tends to side factually with the anti-Zimmerman side (it’s http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/05/us/05mass.html?sq=romney%20massachusetts%20budget%20insurance&st=nyt&scp=1&pagewanted=allentitled Justice for Trayvon) but calls for letting this be decided in court And they praise Trayvon’s parents for focusing on justice, not race. And they still have the idea that Zimmerman’s defence is related to the “Stand Your Ground” law.

Also from O’Mara in the New York Post:

We need to calm this down, and it needs to be tried in a courtroom.

Zimmerman is troubled by everything that has happened and I cannot imagine living in George Zimmerman’s shoes in the past couple of weeks.

He’s told Zimmerman to stay calm, and listen to my advice.

Robert Zimmerman said on CNN:

Our brother literally had to save his life by taking a life. And that’s a situation nobody wants to be in, ever.

Sammy Finkelman (8843f6) — 4/12/2012 @ 9:44 am

82. I don’t know how that wrong link got in there.

Sammy Finkelman (8843f6) — 4/12/2012 @ 9:46 am

Machinist @ 43,

I guess I’m just saying that a “stand your ground” claim would render a lot of difficult “simple self-defense” questions moot. It would simplify Zimmerman’s argument.

I’m not sure whether or not Zimmerman’s initial following would constitute a provocation. Based on something like US v. Peterson (483 F.2d 1222) I can see arguments either way.

Leviticus (624ba1) — 4/12/2012 @ 9:46 am

More from Trayvon’s parents:

His mother, Sybrina Fulton:

Asked what she would say to Zimmerman:

I would probably give him an opportunity to apologize. I would probably ask him if there was another way he could have settled the confrontation that he had with Trayvon, other than the way it happened.

You want to know something? It doesn’t sound like she feels a second degree murder charge is justified. because what she’s describing is not murder – it is, at most manslaughter because there’s no intent there and it is only a too strong defense

Trayvon’s father is more anti-Zimmerman:

It feels good knowing he’s off the streets. This is just the beginning. We have a long way to go, and we have faith.

Their lawyer , Benjamin Crump:

We’re on first base in this game of justice.

He said overturning the stand your ground law would be a future base.

Sammy Finkelman (8843f6) — 4/12/2012 @ 9:56 am

Al Sharpton seems to be a little bit anxious to calm things down:

We do not want anybody high-fiving tonight. This is not about gloating. This is about pursuing justice.

Sammy Finkelman (8843f6) — 4/12/2012 @ 10:00 am

In my speculation it would seem Sarahw may be on the right trail as testimony from the girlfriend would be something I don’t think we’ve seen so far. But, if the case depends upon the testimony of a 16 yo girlfriend who would not talk to police for weeks, that might not be pretty under cross examination.

I imagine it is possible that Trevon’s mom just would like an honest conversation with Zimmerman, and doesn’t necessarily think he committed a crime. But once you get a bunch of people around causing trouble her voice was lost.

I understand the sentiment expressed above about not talking to police, but I think many situations could be resolved easier and earlier if direct honest conversations could be had trying to clear things up rather than clamming up and putting distance out of fear that “what you say (will be twisted and) could be used against you in a court of law (criminal or civil).

But then the “Mediation Lawyers Association” do not have the funding and visibility of the “Trial Lawyers Association”.

MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 4/12/2012 @ 10:20 am

I was actually in a very similar situation as Mr. Zimmerman.

I live in a gated, fenced community. As I drove up, I caught a hispanic fellow trying to climb our fence. He quickly jumped down and looked innocent, then followed me to the gate hoping for me to open the gate and let him in. I didn’t for several minutes while he looked uncomfortable, but then someone exiting the complex drove out the gate, opening it for him. He ran in.

I called the police and followed at a distance. This gate led to a long, very steep hill so he was quickly reduced to a walk and my following him became obvious. He came to my car and shouted confrontationally at me, perhaps hoping to intimidate me into backing off. Of course, I remained in the car.

Eventually, our security guard arrived and escorted him to the apartment in the complex where he claimed to be a guest, but did not have a key (which would have opened the door at the gate) or a phone(to call his paramour in the apartment).

Instead of walking there himself, why did he come to my car and shout accusatorily at me? I wish he had not. But there it is. (No guns, no shooting. At one point he raised his hands to damage my vehicle, but put them back down again.)

luagha (5cbe06) — 4/12/2012 @ 10:44 am

It seems like we may have a hard time for now double checvking the work of The Florida prosecutor and figuring out what happened:

I went to this site, trying to listen to the Zmmerman calkl again:

http://sanfordfl.gov/investigation/trayvon_martin.html

I found there this message (some things are stuill there)

The office of the State Attorney, 4th Judicial Circuit, State Attorney Angela Corey has requested that the City of Sanford remove all reports, videos and audio pertaining to the Martin/Zimmerman case from the website. Their office has provided legal justification for the action and they believe further access to the information will have an adverse effect on their efforts to come to a resolution to this investigation.

Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 4/12/2012 @ 10:50 am

That happened about April 6th.

I never was able to download the call audio.

Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 4/12/2012 @ 10:51 am

“they believe further access to the information will have an adverse effect on their efforts to come to a resolution to this investigation. ”

What?!

SarahW (b0e533) — 4/12/2012 @ 10:58 am

Translation, trust Liz Alvarez, Sandra Robles, and NBC, ABC, they wouldn’t steer you wrong,

narciso (871b3e) — 4/12/2012 @ 11:06 am

http://www.patriotledger.com/news/cops_and_courts/x1726851250/Mass-AG-Coakley-agrees-with-decision-to-bring-charges-against-Zimmerman

narciso (871b3e) — 4/12/2012 @ 11:08 am

There was no more worthless man than Jesse James. Started killing with the Misouri bushwackers when he was sixteen, before the War started. Rode into Lawrence with Quantrill. Kept killing and robbing for fiften years after the War ended. Bob Ford did the world a favor when he shot him in the back but he’s “the dirty little coward who shot Mr. Howard”.

Truth? Heh!

nk (52d02a) — 4/12/2012 @ 11:22 am

I’ve had my day, and I hope you never need a lawyer, but should you get into trouble, get one who cares only for you.
Comment by nk — 4/12/2012 @ 5:21 am

— I know what you meant, nk. Just giving you a bit of a hard time ’cause of how that other commenter reacted. It’s all good.

Icy (e372e3) — 4/12/2012 @ 11:58 am

Really, and he had drawn his weapon, how many of the other 46 calls, he had made?
Comment by narciso — 4/12/2012 @ 5:58 am

A) As far as any of us know: zero
B) As far as any of us know: 46 times

Icy (e372e3) — 4/12/2012 @ 12:03 pm

The recordings are still available on the Internet. They are all collected in the Wikipedia article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treyvon_Martin

But these are *.ogg files. The original source is no longer available.

There’s now also a separate Wikipedia article on the investigation:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Investigation_of_the_death_of_Trayvon_Martin

And they may create a separate article called Politics and the Trayvon Martin case.

There are other places files can be found:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgR7gCxXQYg

They were available for quite some time and they should remain available because there’s no copyright issue.

Apparently there’s a Florida Freedom of Information type law that says 911 calls are made public upon request. But there’s an exception in the case of an investigation. There were demands for its release, and the 911 calls were relased I think on March 13, when the local investigation was concluded.

According to the Wikipedia investigation article,
the Zimmerman call (which was not to 911 but toi an non-emergency number) was released on March 20, which is a bit later.

Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 4/12/2012 @ 12:06 pm

@99: hope you bought the kindle through the link on the side bar… Patterico could use the coin.

redc1c4 (403dff) — 4/12/2012 @ 1:30 pm

Comment by redc1c4 — 4/12/2012 @ 1:30 pm

See? That’s what you get for using comment numbers instead of date/time. Spam gets deleted and you look like you’re talking to yourself. 😉

(It wasn’t even up there that long. Give a brother a break!)

Stashiu3 (cd7afe) — 4/12/2012 @ 1:35 pm

i thought it was funny,.,., 8)

redc1c4 (403dff) — 4/12/2012 @ 1:37 pm

I was also struck by the mother’s comments today. She actually said she thinks the shooting was an accident – the product of events that started small and spun out of control. That seems to me to be a very calm and dispassionate view of what has been described.

If the prosecutor was persuaded to file by the statement of the girlfriend, I think she’s in for a world of difficulty. I don’t think the girlfriend is going to be able to testify to what Martin told her on the phone, or what she overheard him say to someone else. I can see theories by which she might try to get statements in made by Martin on the phone, but the Supreme Court has started down a path of narrowly construing the exceptions to the hearsay rule in criminal cases. I think those might come into play here.

shipwreckedcrew (96a8a6) — 4/12/2012 @ 1:43 pm

Im wondering what the prosecutor knows that we don’t, cause she seems damn confident.

Axel (bdd57c) — 4/12/2012 @ 1:50 pm

#103 Nifong was too. Sometimes stupidity combined with power does that to people.

Bill (af584e) — 4/12/2012 @ 1:52 pm

Apparently bail was not a matter of discussion today. Is that standard? Does anyone know if he is being kept in any special conditions for his safety?

Elsewhere people commented (lawyer types) that they thought a jump from no charges to second degree murder was a pretty big leap. Unless one wants to believe the story that “racists let a killer get away”, it would seem to me that the police and local DA would be slow to release someone more or less immediately. (But what do I know?) I hope and pray that there are people of courage and good will who will think clearly and “do the right thing” according to what the evidence shows.

MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 4/12/2012 @ 1:52 pm

#90 Let the cover up and railroading of Zimmerman being.

#102 She is now back tracking on comments. Guess the race hustlers and Prosecution got to her.

Bill (af584e) — 4/12/2012 @ 1:54 pm

Problem there Bill is this lady ain’t stupid, and in fact is very good.

Axel (bdd57c) — 4/12/2012 @ 1:54 pm

#107 So was Nifong. And with respect to brains, maybe, but suffice it to say Prosecutors get caught up many times in “pursuing the law” ala Javert and lose sight of justice. All that matters is the conviction and the next promotion. Sorry but that is how I see it.

Bill (af584e) — 4/12/2012 @ 1:57 pm

Re #’s 103 and 104 (at 1:50 and 1:52 pm)-
I imagine that a prosecutor must feel confident they have evidence to bring a conviction before they bring a case to trial, to some degree; yet they are part of a system where innocent until proven guilty is the assumption. I imagine that must be a difficult line to walk at times. Any comments on that from the criminal trial lawyers?

MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 4/12/2012 @ 1:59 pm

I agree Bill. She needs and desperately wants a conviction. So why then go for murder 2 which is harder to prove that manslaughter? She’s got info we don’t I betcha.

Axel (bdd57c) — 4/12/2012 @ 2:00 pm

#110. I am not a lawyer but I know theater when I see it. This is theater with the primary purpose being keeping higher ups happy. With respect to facts, so far lots of he said, she said but interestingly enough no racist comments by Zimmerman to indicate some hatred of the black youth. Just comments about how he was angry his neighborhood was being robbed and he wanted it to stop … which begs the question about what the donut eating, pension abusing Police Department was doing about it.
.
.
.
.
But the Gov.t types never go down for their malfeasance and abuse of public trust. They just get another check and go to another municipality taking with them tons of Dunkin Donuts business with them.

Bill (af584e) — 4/12/2012 @ 2:05 pm

#110 Go big or go home. Manslaughter would have been frowned up by the race hustlers and the Obama DOJ.

Bill (af584e) — 4/12/2012 @ 2:07 pm

I don’t think so, manslaughter would have been fine. And a prosecutor advances their career by winning, period. I don’t know, but I betcha big time she knows (or thinks she knows) some big time stuff.

Axel (bdd57c) — 4/12/2012 @ 2:13 pm

#113 Likely right. But I am bearish on the prosecution’s case unless they have an all black jury.

Bill (af584e) — 4/12/2012 @ 2:18 pm

I have heard it said that murder 2 was chosen so that they could plea bargain down to manslaughter.

(which you can’t spell without laughter)

I have also read about the Stand Your Ground pre-trial evidentiary hearing, where Zimmerman just has to prove possibly lethal self defense to a preponderance of the evidence.

All in all, I’m hoping that the first prosecuting attorney was the wise one, who said, “Let him go, this isn’t worth prosecuting.” Darn that prosecutorial discretion.

luagha (5cbe06) — 4/12/2012 @ 2:21 pm

As a strong supporter of cops and prosecutors I was upset at your previous comments , but I let it slide. Now you throw in racial bs…. Well, I’m out. You revealed yourself. And the last thing we need is more race baiting and cop hating.

Axel (bdd57c) — 4/12/2012 @ 2:24 pm

She knows that she has unlimited taxpayers’ funds to spend on the ~~prosecution~~ persecution and Zimmerman doesn’t.

nk (52d02a) — 4/12/2012 @ 2:25 pm

Laugh: you think Zimmerman is innocent?

Axel (bdd57c) — 4/12/2012 @ 2:25 pm

#116 OK. Whatever. You want to play sides go right ahead. I could care less. Plus my comments of an all black jury is perfectly reasonable point if you wish to engage in an honest dialogue.

Bill (af584e) — 4/12/2012 @ 2:26 pm

118 addressed to Luagha, sorry

Axel (bdd57c) — 4/12/2012 @ 2:29 pm

Bill: I take no side. I had thought Zimmerman would go free, but now I think odds against. Please explain why you think blacks would be unable to judge this case fairly? What’s wrong with blacks that makes them unable to do so?

Axel (bdd57c) — 4/12/2012 @ 2:31 pm

Comment by Sarahw — 4/12/2012 @ 5:59 am

The girlfriend is reputed to have said there was an argument.

Is she liar? I think she might be. We’ll see if her story hangs together.

We don’t know what the (16-year old) girlfriend
actually said. Everything’s coming through the lawyer. One thing that we can get, that must be known but doesn’t seem to be public, is the time of the call between her and Travon. We know the other times very closely.

It was sometime after 7:13:41 (when the Zimmercall call to the police dispatcher ended) and 7:17:11 (when Sanford Police Officer Timothy Smith arrived at the 1111 Retreat View Circle – the first location – and was told there was a report of shots fired in the same subdivsion) that the fatal encounter began.

There is also the question if any of these clocks are set wrong.

I want to know if Trayvon was really breaking into homes in the area

Probably not. He had just come there the day before or so, because he had just gotten a 10-day suspension from school. I would like to know what his cousin was doing. He may have been trying to meet his cousin. But all that’s being kept out of the stories. It’s this cousin whom his fatehr concluded he had gone to meet. he may have had all kinds of secret business with that cousin.

Or maybe he came to bring him some marijuana in exchange for $10 or $20. If so, he didn’t have it on him at the end.

and/ or using drugs/getting stoned and walking around.

he was tested for drugs. The results didn’t seem to make intio the major media. His walking around could have been looking for house numbers. it was dark and raining.

Not because that sheds any clear light on the need to use deadly force, but so that people will shut up about Trayvon being unreasonably suspected because of his race.

Well, we know it wasn’t exactly that. His mother, whi knew him better, seems to be less inclined to believe it was all unjustified/

Now hjere;s acurious thing. Governor Paterson says that whjen they were trying to find out whast hapepned, a witness came to them, or I could say maybe a ‘witness” and said I think her son had heard screaming and it was Travon screaming and they tried to get him//her to change their story.

I mean, the parents can be easily being manipulated in this whole thing once it got started.

There is plenty in Zimmerman’s description to justify a call to report him, but it seems very many people think that can only be reasonable if (in hindsight) was *actually* up to no good. Z. Being right is not a test of reasonable, but it seems to be the one that is applied.

His actions didn’t make any kind of sense to Zimmerman. That’s why he was thinking of drugs.

Walking around in the rain, looking at houses, something in his hands, holding on to his waistband, staring at him, coming closer, then running away, then seeming to disappear.

Of course we can say that Zimmerman’s actions might not have made too much sense to Martin.

Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 4/12/2012 @ 2:39 pm

On the David Paterson show he said last hourr that the “Stand Your Ground” law is used by gang members who get into a fight. Even though they are committing felonies by shoooting at each other, they say it’s self-defense.

I think the same thing was true in the Wild West.

Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 4/12/2012 @ 2:49 pm

Please explain why you think blacks would be unable to judge this case fairly? What’s wrong with blacks that makes them unable to do so?

Comment by Axel — 4/12/2012 @ 2:31 pm

For the same reason an all white jury would have difficulty if the defendant was black.

Not Guilty only requires one hold out. Guilty a little tougher. I think an all black jury would look at circumstantial evidence differently than whites. Both colors do it sadly enough.

But to be clear, I am talking PROBABILITIES.

Bill (af584e) — 4/12/2012 @ 2:53 pm

And if folks don’t think Blacks play sides in favor of blacks please explain to me the primary results with Barack beating Liberal Lion Hilary Clinton 9:1.

In the end, we are all tribal.

Bill (af584e) — 4/12/2012 @ 2:55 pm

#123 The law of unintended consequences.

Bill (af584e) — 4/12/2012 @ 2:56 pm

#117 Truth. Whereas the defendant does not or has to rely on charity which has its limits.

The simple of act of a Prosecutor pressing charges is a big deal. And doing so with even the slightest hint of politics or bias should end careers. This case, to me, seems that but I am listening to be convinced otherwise.

Bill (af584e) — 4/12/2012 @ 2:59 pm

125: Bill, ya got a gerbil in your pocket son?

Axel (bdd57c) — 4/12/2012 @ 3:28 pm

Comment 1266 at

https://patterico.com/2012/03/26/report-trayvon-martin-was-the-aggressor-according-to-the-evidence/

…repeated:

Apparently Holder has never heard of the case of Sheppard v. Maxwell, 384 U.S. 333 (1966)

http://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/384/333

We have had that happen before in a local area with a campaign for someone to be prosecuted

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Sheppard

Some believe that a specific headline from the Cleveland Press, “Why Isn’t Sam Sheppard in Jail?,” clearly indicated the bias of the media against Sheppard.

But this is, to use a familiar word, unprecedented.

Comment by Sammy Finkelman — 4/11/2012 @ 4:21 pm

There is a lot at the end of that thread, before this one was started.

Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 4/12/2012 @ 3:33 pm

Bill: I take no side. I had thought Zimmerman would go free, but now I think odds against. Please explain why you think blacks would be unable to judge this case fairly? What’s wrong with blacks that makes them unable to do so?

Comment by Axel — 4/12/2012 @ 2:31 pm

They are 13% of the population and 93% of the violent crime. 47% of welfare and 67% of bastardy. Ok?

nk (52d02a) — 4/12/2012 @ 3:39 pm

#128 Axel, if that is the best you can do then this is not really a dialogue.

But yes, all white, or black, juries, IMHO tend to go vote tribal if that is a factor in a case (like this one).

Human nature, sadly people don’t wish to confront this reality and perform all sorts of mental gymnastics to say otherwise.

Again, liberal lion Hilary versus unknown Obama and she got smoked with a constituency she dominated in her Senate runs. Why? Answer is as plain as the night is long — all things being more or less equal choose your tribe member.

Bill (af584e) — 4/12/2012 @ 3:39 pm

#130 Not sure why those facts would support your point about them being “fair minded” on a case of this nature.

Those stats however speak to why Zimmerman would reasonably shoot first and ask question later if being attacked.

Sad but true. Problem is on matters of race, Holder was right. Folks are not interested in the truth (just for the opposite reasons he cited.)

Bill (af584e) — 4/12/2012 @ 3:41 pm

Dear Mr. Axel:
According to the evidence I have seen and heard on the news, all of which could be wrong:
The law is on Zimmerman’s side.
The evidence is on Zimmerman’s side.
The witnesses are on Zimmerman’s side.

The police did everything right. They witnessed, they questioned, they got medical attention, they took him down to the station in cuffs and questioned him some more, and the local prosecutor said, “Not much point in charging him. Clear cut self defense. The law, the evidence, and the witnesses are on his side.”

You said ‘innocent.’ That’s a loaded term, so I’ll unload it. I wish the whole situation didn’t happen and Martin and Zimmerman had never met.

Given that, yes, Zimmerman is innocent of murder, manslaughter, or any other related crimes by reason of legal self defense.

luagha (5cbe06) — 4/12/2012 @ 4:27 pm

Luagha: given the medias numerous errors and such I am surprised you count them as you source of deep knowledge of the case. But even assuming the media has been accurately reporting this story (they haven’t) your conclusions are not conclusive, but mere speculation.

Axel (bdd57c) — 4/12/2012 @ 5:17 pm

I would agree that what luagha has said is speculation, as is what most of us have said without first hand knowledge of the facts. i think luagha is assuming, given how hard the media have tried to make him look guilty by distorting the facts, that if they had anything that was more convincing evidence (for real, even) they would have likely reported it. Of course, that is an assumption most pertinent when the trial was in the media before public opinion. If the prosecutor does actually have something else she may want to keep it until the moment it appears in court. Speculation ended.

MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 4/12/2012 @ 5:25 pm

Summary Judgement for the defendant….
riots, burnings, and looting to follow!

AD-RtR/OS! (eeeeb1) — 4/12/2012 @ 6:22 pm

This is why I said, first thing, “According to the evidence I have seen and heard on the news, all of which could be wrong.”

I would posit that if you are looking for ‘deep knowledge’ you aren’t going to get what you want.

So far, no one has claimed to have total eyes on at the critical instant of the shot, and no one has claimed to have eyes on to see Zimmerman pushing or accosting Trayvon. That’s the only ‘deep knowledge’ I see that anyone could look for that would change the situation.

luagha (72a2e7) — 4/12/2012 @ 6:30 pm

The affidavit is HORRENDOUSLY bad. What pathetic shoddy police work and no self-respecting prosecutor would have let this go out. I’m really questioning the motives of the prosecution now.

Someone explain this gem to me — how exactly does one “falsely assume” something?

There are typos and syntax problems in it as well, and as Alan Dershowitz has pointed out the affidavit is silent on key elements of the offense it supposedly supports.

More to come.

shipwreckedcrew (96a8a6) — 4/12/2012 @ 6:50 pm

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Journalism/2012/04/12/At-CPAC-Breitbart-Predicted-What-Left-Media-Are-Doing-in-Trayvon-Case

narciso (871b3e) — 4/12/2012 @ 7:04 pm

Thank you, shipwrecked.

JD (318f81) — 4/12/2012 @ 7:09 pm

shipwrecked, thank you for the quick opinion. I was not impressed, but being a non-lawyer I had no standard to go by.

How is it a special prosecutor appointed by the governor, knowing every move is being watched, puts out something that “no self-respecting prosecutor” would have submitted? Is it indicative of a passive-aggressive dynamic of being “forced” to do something she didn’t agree with?

Did someone somewhere decide the best way to play it out was to bring charges, even if questionable, to let the official investigation be put forth for the public to view, and hopefully exonerate Zimmerman and appease/defuse the crowds?

But then it is not within my responsibility to do anything about, and I should go back to hoping and praying that there are enough people doing the right thing in the right places, and otherwise be quiet. Good night.

MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 4/12/2012 @ 7:14 pm

Alan Dershowitz: The charging instrument filed against George Zimmerman is “unethical” and will never make it past a judge…

http://hotair.com/archives/2012/04/12/dershowitz-the-charging-instrument-filed-against-george-zimmerman-is-unethical-and-will-never-make-it-past-a-judge/

Colonel Haiku (91cd06) — 4/12/2012 @ 8:53 pm

Well, the special prosecutor is “special”.

George, get yourself a good lawyer!

nk (52d02a) — 4/12/2012 @ 9:14 pm

There are prosecutors and then there are patronage appointees, MD. Not necessarily mutually exclusive but I have dealt with both, the ones I respected and the ones I laughed at.

Don’t know why somebody made a point that this was an appointee of a Republcant appointee of another Republicant appointee.

nk (52d02a) — 4/12/2012 @ 9:22 pm

Summary Judgement for the defendant….
riots, burnings, and looting to follow!
Comment by AD-RtR/OS! — 4/12/2012 @ 6:22 pm

— RNC National Convention in Tampa, August 27th-30th. I wonder when the trial will take place . . .

Icy (e372e3) — 4/12/2012 @ 9:52 pm

Summary Judgement for the defendant….
riots, burnings, and looting to follow!

Hopefully, it is followed by cannon fire from these machines.

Michael Ejercito (64388b) — 4/12/2012 @ 10:35 pm

Magnificent goods from you, man. I’ve understand your stuff prior to and you are just extremely excellent. I really like what you’ve received here, certainly like what you’re stating and the way by which you are saying it. You make it entertaining and you continue to care for to keep it sensible. I can not wait to read much more from you. That is actually a tremendous website.

water softener problems (141c4f) — 4/17/2012 @ 6:17 pm

Why oh why oh WHY would someone put a spam comment like that without a link?

I noticed they all seem to be lacking links lately. Seems fairly inefficient.

Random (de9896) — 4/17/2012 @ 7:04 pm

4/11/2012

Zimmerman Will Be Charged

150 Responses to “Zimmerman Will Be Charged”

Favorite Sites

Links

Patterico Sells Out