Patterico's Pontifications

8/22/2009

“If Nancy Pelosi wants to find a Swastika …”

Filed under: Government — DRJ @ 6:33 pm



[Guest post by DRJ]

A statement by Marine Corps vet David William Hedrick at Rep. Brian Baird’s town hall meeting in Washington State:

“I will remind you. A little history lesson. The Nazis were the National Socialist Party. They were leftists. They took over the finances. They took over the car industry. They took over health care in their country. If Nancy Pelosi wants to find a Swastika maybe the first place she should look is the sleeve of her own arm.”

H/T Gateway Pundit.

— DRJ

139 Responses to ““If Nancy Pelosi wants to find a Swastika …””

  1. Somebody should be running for Congress!
    A U.S.Marine: Your best friend, and your worse nightmare.

    AD - RtR/OS! (48b300)

  2. What part is Rep. Baird from? Double Heh! Nicely Played.

    daleyrocks (718861)

  3. You can draw far-fetched parallels between the Democratic/Republican Party and the Nazis all the live-long day, but the end result is always the same: you look like an idiot. The Nazis stood in a class of their own when it came to evildoing, and to try to paint either party with the same brush makes you look like a mouth-breathing idiot or a shrill political hack.

    And for the record, a preemptive smackdown: yes, the same rule applies when liberals are the ones painting with the Nazi brush (again, just so I don’t have to explain “my inconsistencies” fifty times).

    Leviticus (f565c1)

  4. Cue “blahblahblah, you hate the troops, that Marine could whup yer ass.”

    Leviticus (f565c1)

  5. yes, the same rule applies when liberals are the ones painting with the Nazi brush

    First time I read that, Leviticus, I saw “Nazi bush”. 🙂

    Scott Jacobs (d027b8)

  6. Leviticus is right.

    No matter how well-meaning, invoking National Socialism — no matter which side you’re on — is not only a losing game, it diminishes the horror and tragedy of the Nazi regime.

    We’re soon to lose the last remnants of the cultural memory carried by those who fought and watched their colleagues die to end the evil of Nazism and racial Imperialism.

    We owe it to them to reserve such commentary to those who actually wish to kill and enslave for the greater good of their master or God.

    Ag80 (248b73)

  7. “you look like an idiot”

    Leviticus – Pelosi certainly did when she raised the issue, which is why this guy is reiterating it. What is your point again, that Pelosi shouldn’t have tried the tactic?

    daleyrocks (718861)

  8. And didn’t Baird say he apologized for calling people Brownshirts? It seems that rebutting those comments is quite different than initiating them.

    Stashiu3 (ed6467)

  9. Leviticus,

    I hope you aren’t saying some things are too sensitive to be the subject of debate because, if so, then how will we learn from the economic and political lessons of the German Reich?

    “In looking at the relationship between the economy and the state one finds the regime’s actions to often appear contradictory. However, an understanding of the overriding power of the “primacy of politics” can help resolve the many disparate threads.
    ***
    The state is understood to have intervened in the economy and dealt with business from a position of strength, its intervention coming from a rejection of liberalism and free market capitalism and from a focus on political objectives. However, it was simply a rejection of one form of capitalism; despite various ideological antipathies toward capital as a whole, capitalism remained.”

    Ultimately, the question is whether National Socialism is a “singularly unique creation” or whether there are parallels between the U.S. and Germany when it comes to the degree of state intervention in the economy.

    DRJ (3f5471)

  10. didn’t Baird say he apologized for calling people Brownshirts?

    Politician’s apologies are, if possible, even more worthless than politician’s promises.

    Tully (c2f070)

  11. Agreed. But it does mean that he acknowledged using the Nazi reference. I don’t think responding to that and Pelosi’s remarks are out of line.

    Stashiu3 (ed6467)

  12. Patterico’s new friend 24AheadDotCom was over blogwhoring at Confederate Yankee today on a post about Town Halls under a different screen name:

    “I saw this stupid idea on the web, and I thought everyone would get a chuckle out of it. Instead of waving signs and trying to get on the TV, someone suggested – get this! – finding someone who’s smart to engage in an impromptu debate with a politician in order to show how that politician is wrong.

    I patiently explained to that person that waving signs and warning about what a friend of a friend of a friend said SEIU said someone said is more effective than actually showing how a politician can’t think things through.

    Some people!
    posted by Another bad idea at August 22, 2009 06:12 PM”

    daleyrocks (718861)

  13. DRJ,

    That’s true, but my point is that the defining aspect of the Nazi regime wasn’t its economic policy but its bid for world conquest, eradication of Jews, and emphasis on racial superiority. Nine times out of ten, you ask someone what they think of when you say “Nazi”, they’ll say one of those things. And neither party in US politics is doing any of those things.

    So, sure: if the Nazis hadn’t been a bunch of Jew-hating, Europe-invading white supremacists – if they’d been just another peaceful political party with a hybrid economic agenda – then I might not be objecting to people trying to tag one another with the label. But honestly, if they’d been just been just another peaceful political party with a hybrid economic agenda, no one would bother in the first place.

    Leviticus (f565c1)

  14. Yes, and the Nazi didn’t publicly hate Jews, invade other countries, and advocate racial supremacy…..at first.

    Now Big O does have eugenicists czars. Just sayin’.

    PatriotRider (37b91c)

  15. The Nazis were the National Socialist Party. They were leftists.

    Coincidentally enough (or not), Hitler also was both a vegan and animal-rights devotee….

    What’s far more interesting is how much window dressing many, if not all, of us will fall for. So the fact that even though traditionally defined ultra-leftists like Mao and Stalin were no less ruthless and brutal than Hitler, because their sentiments supposedly (with an emphasis on “supposedly”) rested on do-gooderism and populism, they don’t seem somehow quite as bloody and grotesquely iconic as the leader of the Third Reich was.

    And, yes, there are rightists who rationalize away the evils and horrors of certain extremists, particularly (or not surprisingly) from the right, in which bad people become good, good people become bad. But I notice that ass-backwards way of framing things is much more a specialty of greater numbers of liberals than conservatives.

    Moreover, the average rightwinger isn’t so deluded to believe that because his or her sentiments are automatically beyond reproach (because they are humane for humane’s sake, decent for decent’s sake, compassionate for compassionate’s sake, sophisticated for sophisticated’s sake), their common sense and down-to-earth reactions therefore can take a back seat.

    By contrast, the average leftwinger will snicker at (or be far more resentful towards) anything that in the name of common sense runs against his or her political fervor.

    Mark (411533)

  16. The problem using Nazis as a comparison or economic cautionary tale is the public immediately ties Nazis to Jews to death camps to war… It’s most likely an extreme minority that upon hearing the Nazi parallel being made think economic intervention rather than the above, no matter how many times it’s usage is clarified. I think it’s a losing tactic for either side.

    The Marine in the video telling the pol he doesn’t have the right to tell him that he can keep his insurance seems more of an angle to rationally approach the debate – it clearly speaks to the extraordinary intervention and domination of the government entity in our lives via this health care, auto companies, banking, etc.

    dana (0f0b2e)

  17. Thank the Lord for Teh Interents! This movement would not have started without it.

    And thank you Al Gore for inventing it.

    Patricia (29a01d)

  18. Leviticus:

    But honestly, if they’d been just been just another peaceful political party with a hybrid economic agenda, no one would bother in the first place.

    Okay, I see that point, but what should town hall protesters do when a public leader like Nancy Pelosi likens them to Nazis, saying they are “carrying swastikas and symbols like that to a town meeting on healthcare”? I understand you condemn Pelosi’s statement but do you really expect protesters to ignore what she said instead of responding the way Hedrick did?

    Furthermore, what if the comparisons are apt? The Bush-Hitler comparison resonated with liberals because they view Bush’s military response to 9/11 as overly aggressive and the Iraq War as an unjustified occupation. Similarly, the German economic comparison resonates with conservatives because the take-over of so many aspects of the American economy resembles the pervasive state control of the German economy. I’ll gladly compare it to another historical example that is on point. What do you suggest?

    DRJ (3f5471)

  19. I salute the Marine..

    Scrapiron (4e0dda)

  20. I’m with that racist Stashiu on this one. Not answering this kind of crap from the likes of Pelosi. Baird, and their ilk simply is not an option. Though, the Dems and their mouthpieces in the MSM have done an admirably dishonest job of making this out to be something other than a response to their mendoucheity.

    JD (68664a)

  21. Off topic: I’m currently front row center (except for the VIP seats, that is) at a free Toad the Wet Sprocket concert at Pershing Square in downtown L.A. Currently enduring an opening band that is like Spinal Tap without the humor.

    “Is this a joke? No, is this a joke?”

    The guy just said: “Stay tuned for Wet Toad.” Then, corrected, he blamed in on the medication he is on.

    I can’t liveblog these things any more (since I lost the ability to post from the Treo), so all I can do is “live comment.”

    Patterico (d79d26)

  22. I am live commenting from Bristol, TN after the NASCAR race. I hate Kyle Boooooooooosch.

    JD (68664a)

  23. “What should town hall protesters do when a public leader like Nancy Pelosi likens them to Nazis, saying they are “carrying swastikas and symbols like that to a town meeting on healthcare”?

    – DRJ

    They should vote her ass out of office faster than she can say “uppity plebes” (which she undoubtedly would). Barring that? I don’t know. Again, it all boils back down to having representatives who don’t see themselves as accountable to their constituents, and lack even a basic respect for those same constituents as a result.

    “Furthermore, what if the comparisons are apt? The Bush-Hitler comparison resonated with liberals because they view Bush’s military response to 9/11 as overly aggressive and the Iraq War as an unjustified occupation. Similarly, the German economic comparison resonates with conservatives because the take-over of so many aspects of the American economy resembles the pervasive state control of the German economy.”

    – DRJ

    But they’re not apt, DRJ – not in either case. Even if Bush lied about the reasons for invading Iraq, he deposed a brutal dictator and tried his best to see to it that the citizens of Iraq were protected by US forces. Does that sound like Hitler in Poland? And even if Obama unnecessarily nationalized a chunk of the US auto industry, he didn’t do it so that he could push a bunch of Panzers through Belgium and stomp the French.

    Leviticus (f565c1)

  24. I saw Toad the Wet Sprocket @ Laguna Seca once. Great concert.

    JD (68664a)

  25. Leviticus – …so that he could push a bunch of Panzers through Belgium and stomp the French.

    Which might get Obama on better terms with conservatives.

    Apogee (e2dc9b)

  26. You know , the name calling is interesting. I don’t think that Pelosi genuinely thinks that Republicans are Nazis. I hope not. Nor do many Republicans actually think that Pelosi is intentionally trying to destroy the country.

    What has happened is that we—voters—have allowed the nutjobs on both sides to keep pushing the debate, incrementally, toward the current state. And the DNC and RNC love it. It really rakes in the contributions.

    Of course, it damages that pesky issue of governing…

    I doubt that, if asked, Pelosi could adequately describe the history and application on the word “Nazi.” She just uses it the way many people use “SOB.” To be fair, many Republicans couldn’t give a good history of the 1929 Crash, for that matter.

    To be sure, newspapers and such during the Civil War wrote some pretty hateful things (I think that the NYT wrote that Lincoln was an “ill tempered ape” in one editorial).

    So I do think that Pelosi should be ridiculed for calling anyone a Nazi. Baird was forced to apologize for calling citizens who disagree with him guilty of “brownshirt” tactics.

    I say throw them all out. I am not impressed by any politician at present.

    The ironic part, to me, are the BO boosters who utterly refuse to critique any of the things he has done recently—like the snitch e-mail program. Yet those are things that would lead to calls for insurrection if GWB had done them.

    Which is why I call many people on the scene today alphabetists. They don’t care about facts. Just the letter “D” or “R.”

    There are many Republicans or Independents who disliked GWB or any current Republican. I want to see more of the same attitude from Democrats and Progressives.

    So far, not so much.

    Again, throw them all out. Tell me again how “experience” has been helpful.

    Sorry for the grumpiness.

    Eric Blair (a88004)

  27. I’m with Eric on this one. The MO of both sides is just to stir up the riff-raff (us) into shouting at each other when we should be unified against the numpties in both parties. It used to be that they only did this, and effectively, in election years. Now it has blurred into a never-ending round of campaigning for their causes. Believe me, at the end of their “busy” workday, all these pols have cocktails and laugh at us. All they care about is staying in power. Period. Throw them all out. I have said before, on this very site, complete neophytes could not do any more damage than this lot. We have nothing to lose.

    Gazzer (6d46a4)

  28. “Again, throw them all out. Tell me again how “experience” has been helpful”

    – Eric Blair

    Amen to that. To be experienced at a shameful thing is not good.

    Leviticus (f565c1)

  29. “I don’t think that Pelosi genuinely thinks that Republicans are Nazis.

    I wish I were as confident, Eric.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  30. Leviticus,

    I agree the inflammatory aspects of Nazism don’t apply but we should be able to come to that conclusion because we analyzed it and not because there’s an unspoken rule that any comparison to Nazi Germany is out-of-bounds.

    DRJ (3f5471)

  31. Well, SPQR, having listened to Nancy Pelosi for several years, I doubt that she knows very much about the word, other than as a synonym for “people I don’t like.”

    I’m serious. It’s like that word “fascist” that people throw around.

    Eric Blair (a88004)

  32. Eric, oh I assure you that I don’t overestimate Pelosi’s intelligence …

    SPQR (26be8b)

  33. Truthiness: “I will remind you. A little history lesson. The Nazis were the National Socialist Party. They were leftists…”

    Truth: “Nazism refers to the totalitarian Fascist ideology (see below) and policies espoused and practiced by Adolf Hitler and his National Socialist German Worker’s Party from 1920-1945. Nazism stressed the superiority of the Aryan, its destiny as the Master Race to rule the world over other races, and a violent hatred of Jews, which it blamed for all of the problems of Germany. Nazism also provided for extreme nationalism which called for the unification of all German-speaking peoples into a single empire. The economy envisioned for the state was a form of corporative state socialism, although members of the party who were leftists (and would generally support such an economic system over private enterprise) were purged from the party in 1934. [The Nazi Party came to power in Germany in 1933 until 1945.]

    Fascism – A philosophy or system of government that advocates or exercises a dictatorship of the extreme right, typically through the merging of state and business leadership, together with an ideology of belligerent nationalism.” source- remember.org

    DCSCA (9d1bb3)

  34. Oh, please IMP. Who knew that Benito Mussolini was a right wing fanatic? But then, I’m sure you knew Bennie.

    Go tell us more stories about Rush Limbaugh’s BO, your time with Cronkite, playing soccer at the American Embassy in Moscow, chatting it up with Von Braun, dissing Margaret Thatcher when you were a 14 year old wunderkind of political theorists, selling newspapers (for “quite a few quid” announcing the breakup of The Beatles), or having a fleet of Jeeps. What have I left out, folks?

    You might also dial back on the pharmaceuticals.

    Eric Blair (a88004)

  35. More revisionism of history from DCSCA. Transforming the Night of the Long Knives from a removal of Ernst Roehm’s SA faction into the removal of the leftwing economic ideas. Rather, it was the destruction of the SA paramilitary power base, to get the cooperation of the German military class, that caused Hitler to purge Roehm.

    Typical of DCSCA’s misrepresentations.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  36. I hate it when people piss on my leg and try to tell me it is raining. And I wish someone could help DSCSA get the help he so desperately needs.

    JD (2e1461)

  37. For those not aware of it, the original source of the claim that National Socialism was “right wing” and not a creation of leftism is that of Marxism. Marxism created a taxonomy that swept everything that was not marxism, but especially German non-marxian socialism as well as Italian fascism, into “right wing”.

    Like so much of Marxist cant, it has taken over the Left’s language and furthered the Left’s denial of the history of the socialist movement.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  38. Actually, JD, bupropion is sometimes used for treatment of Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Of course, I don’t know if it will be covered under Obamacare.

    Eric Blair (a88004)

  39. SPQR, Teh Narrative is strong! And a lie repeated enough times…

    Eric Blair (a88004)

  40. “I agree the inflammatory aspects of Nazism don’t apply but we should be able to come to that conclusion because we analyzed it and not because there’s an unspoken rule that any comparison to Nazi Germany is out-of-bounds.”

    – DRJ

    Okay. I see that distinction: if one makes a habit of avoiding comparisons to the Nazis simply because one believes it to be bad form, then one risks missing unsettling signs in the event that things get so bad that such comparisons are actually warranted. Which is not the case right now, but it’s a matter of staying on your toes.

    Leviticus (f565c1)

  41. Good point there DCSCA:

    Fascism – A philosophy or system of government that advocates or exercises a dictatorship of the extreme right, typically through the merging of state and business leadership, together with an ideology of belligerent nationalism.” source- remember.org

    So, let’s take those words and substitute a couple of others:

    Fascism – A philosophy or system of government that advocates or exercises a dictatorship of the extreme left, typically through the merging of state and business leadership, together with an ideology of belligerent globalism.” source- remember.org

    Hmm. Well, by God, you have socialism with a simple cut and paste.

    Give up and go to sleep.

    Ag80 (248b73)

  42. DCSCA:

    The economy envisioned for the state was a form of corporative state socialism, although members of the party who were leftists (and would generally support such an economic system over private enterprise) were purged from the party in 1934

    This confirms that leftists are the ones who “would generally support” state/socialist economic systems. Isn’t that Hedrick’s point?

    DRJ (3f5471)

  43. Leviticus,

    It makes my day when you and I can find common ground, and thanks for a good discussion. I’ll keep what you said in mind.

    DRJ (3f5471)

  44. Eric Blair and Gazzer – Were it only the politicians that were the problem. Many of them are extraordinarily weak and are an extension of political groups and business associations which profit mightily by having government bend the rules of competition in their favor and allocate tax dollars back to the supporters.

    Politicians answer to who pays to keep them in power, and without the populace having that information and understanding its importance, simply throwing them out will most often result in their replacement by someone else who is supportive of the same status quo, due to the ever-increasing costs associated with forming and maintaining a campaign.

    Obama and his administration are thieves, not political idealogues, they simply want to run greater amounts of public and private money through their fingers, for the purposes of siphoning, and they’ll make deals with anyone who will further that goal.

    Unfortunately, the electoral game is increasingly fixed, and the choices the voters are given are two sides of the same corrupt coin.

    I really don’t believe that we the people will see much political improvement until:

    1) True, stable, intelligent grassroots candidates emerge who have abandoned affiliation with the other two parties.

    2) Support for such candidates emanates from small donations of actual citizens and not from large corporations and/or political organizations (which is the image Obama was sold as – and don’t expect them to ignore the phony CC donations if the third party candidate is a real threat to their power)

    3) The candidates, once elected, can withstand the negative PR by the phony press and competing politicians and roll back government power considerably. By removing the government from tipping the scales of the free market and gobbling up and wasting so much of our resources, this country would bounce back tremendously, and everybody knows it.

    It’s a tall order, and I don’t actually see it occurring. Especially since so many were taken in by Obama’s electoral con job. It seems that many will ‘fight the good fight for their team’ until they are out of business and out of existence.

    Apogee (e2dc9b)

  45. But, as an aside, I’ll stick to the sentiments expressed in my first comment as anyone who compares either party, as it stands, to the Nazis.

    Leviticus (f565c1)

  46. as to anyone, that is.

    Leviticus (f565c1)

  47. DRJ – This confirms that leftists are the ones who “would generally support” state/socialist economic systems.

    It also confirms that many leftists are indeed ‘useful idiots’ for helping to enable too much power into the hands of too few people, who will then use that power to stomp the idiots, along with everyone else.

    Apogee (e2dc9b)

  48. Yes, any comparison of American pols to Hitler, who systematically murdered six-million Jews, and another six-eight million non-Jews in his concentration/death camps, is completely out-of-bounds; but, perhaps we could compare American pols who demonstrate Marxian/Statist tendencies to Joseph Stalin, who only starved to death twenty-million or more Kulaks in the Ukraine during his collectivization of the agricultural sector of the Soviet economy – a feat he accomplished under the critical eye of the New York Times (may Duranty roast in Hell forever!), and instituted a system of gulags that are unmatched in the annuls of depravity.

    AD - RtR/OS! (48b300)

  49. #42- DRJ,

    Hedrick’s point is just ‘truthiness’ (it does Colbert proud) simply because, in truth- and reality, the leftists were purged from the Nazi government a year after they assumed power and the ascendancy of Nazi Germany was fueled by chiefly by facism. But it does little for the level of discussion for the right- or the left- to keep tossing (or shouting) Nazism into any debate. It generates more heat than enlightenment but makes a good flash point for TV and radio talk show hosts on either side. A better position for the Right would be to argue against Pelosi/Reid/Obama along the lines used by conservatives and Republicans against FDR. I’ve been re-reading some NYT coverage of the Depression and in the context of the times written(and the written Times) some of the positions of the Right in that era seemed to have merit from a perspective of 70 years, but in the depths of an economic emergency, read differently in the times they were happening.

    DCSCA (9d1bb3)

  50. Apogee –

    The issue that you’re addressing is, I think, the most important issue facing this country. It’s certainly the thing that worries me the most about American politics – this lack of representative accountability; and I think solving the problem of “rogue representatives” (if you’ll grant me such a melodramatic phrase) solves a great number of this country’s problems right off the bat.

    For my part, I think we need to abolish geographic electoral districts, and turn to ideological ones. As it currently stands, with ideological opponents living right down the street from one another, it’s impossible for a congressman to effectively represent the interests of all his geographic constituents (if he’s even interested in that in the first place). If you allow a citizen to vote for a purely ideological representative (and make that same representative answerable to his segment of the spectrum, regardless of their geographic location), the problem is largely mitigated.

    Leviticus (f565c1)

  51. Now, THAT is funny:

    “..But it does little for the level of discussion for the right- or the left- to keep tossing (or shouting) Nazism into any debate…”

    Kinda like the “Boss Limbaugh” business you used to peddle with nearly every post, huh? But, of course, that is different!

    Eric Blair (a88004)

  52. And the humor of this Human Payday Bar suggesting what Republicans ought to do—given his track record of bizarre statements, ceaseless reflexive partisanship, and myriad falsehoods—is the very reason he has been dubbed the International Man of Parody.

    Eric Blair (a88004)

  53. It might be a moral victory but I don’t see any political benefit to watch Pelosi suggest town hall protesters are like Nazis and meekly respond by comparing her to FDR. I think it’s fair to respond to that kind of provocation by saying the Democrats are the ones implementing socialist policies.

    Would it be fair to label as Nazis the Democrats and Obama just for taking over GM? No, but when Pelosi talked about swastikas and implied the town hall protesters are like Nazis, she opened the door to the comparison.

    DRJ (3f5471)

  54. DRJ, I think that people using the “Nazi” card should be called on it by our so-called journalists. I would love to hear how Ms. Pelosi defended its use. I’m sure she would eventually resort to saying she became overheated with rhetoric.

    If journalists treated the Left as they did the Right the last forty years or so, they would set up a sit down between Ms. Pelosi and a Holocaust survivor. Maybe, like Professor Gates, the Holocaust survivor could offer to “teach” Speaker Pelosi about use of the word “Nazi” to describe people with whom one disagrees politically.

    But the door was opened long ago, with Lefties thinking it is just fine to call Righties “fascists.” And we just had a demonstration of how the Left has pushed the definition around so that it can applied to ideological differences.

    Eric Blair (a88004)

  55. Comment by Leviticus — 8/22/2009 @ 9:52 pm

    You seem to be advocating “proportional representation”, a system that is in use in Israel, and which has caused some severe problems of governance in that country – though it might be the only way the Libertarians will ever have any sort of Congressional representation, but they would be joined by the Peace & Freedom types, the Perotista’s, and others, completely fragmenting the House.
    The Senate would have other problems, there doesn’t seem to be any possible way to have proportional representation in that body, without completely rewriting the U.S.Constitution.

    AD - RtR/OS! (48b300)

  56. As for how Stalin, Mao etc are remembered, don’t forget that history is written by the victors. Germany lost and lost big and thus is remembered poorly despite not being all that different in terms of blameworthiness when compared to contemporary and succeeding states.

    The post WW2 era saw the USSR in an ascendant position allowing Stalin to insulate himself from many of his actions. Look at how Pol Pot (an actual True Believer) is remembered, he failed as a leader and it shows. North Korea provides a current example as well.

    Soronel Haetir (2b4c2b)

  57. #53- I think we can agree on Pelosi. Although ‘socialist’ policies in an economic emergency has precedent worth debate. Pelosi is a weak sister (no pun intended) and from the perspective of the Right, an indirect asset for their position. Reid as well. I’d like to see both of them replaced with stronger leadership. But talk of Nazis, be it from the Speaker of the House on the left, or the speakers on my radio on the Right, adds nothing to the discussion.

    DCSCA (9d1bb3)

  58. AD – RtR/OS!,

    Yes, exactly – they call it a National Closed Party List ballot (the Netherlands uses it, too, as far as I know). As for the problems Israel’s experiencing right now between Netanyahu and the Two State Solution people… I mean, at least the views of the populace are accurately reflected in the government. I think that’s simultaneously what you must ask and all you can ask of a representative democracy. There are still bound to be weird circumstances, though.

    As far as the Senate goes… we just need to repeal the Seventeenth Amendment. Return that legislative body to the purpose for which it was originally intended.

    Leviticus (f565c1)

  59. Yes, but proportional representation also abrogates the entire purpose of the Constituion…
    “A Republic, if you can keep it!”

    AD - RtR/OS! (48b300)

  60. I don’t see how.

    Leviticus (f565c1)

  61. If I really wanted to tar people with the “Nazi brush”, I’d have to point out that both major US parties are irretrievably Statist. They only differ on what they’d like to make you do, and whose interests they put the power of the state behind.

    And then I’d have to admit that until Obama opens up re-education camps or starts up the Obama Youth Corps, there really isn’t much to hang the charge on.

    Just a run of the mill democratic socialist.

    Kevin Murphy (3c3db0)

  62. Because proportional representation is a form of direct-democracy. We are a Republic.
    Also, it would be interesting to have one or more States experiment with the system, or with others, except for that little detail of Article IV, Section 4: “The United States shall guarantee to every State in the Union a republican form of government…”.

    Direct democracy is a wonderful ideal, and works tolerably at the town-meeting level, but is completely impractical for a large, diverse, industrial nation such as ours, where there are too many factions that would have to be accomodated.
    This is why we have a Bill of Rights: To protect the rights of the minority against abuse by the majority.
    In a pure democracy, two men and a woman are stranded on a desert island. The men take a vote on having sex with the woman. The motion carries: Two to One!

    AD - RtR/OS! (48b300)

  63. I think that people using the “Nazi” card should be called on it by our so-called journalists.

    But because the MSM has it’s obvious bias, they won’t call the left on it. It’s evident there is no longer a level playing field.

    In theory, because Pelosi opened the door of comparison, the right should be able to do likewise. But it’s to their own destruction to do so because again, there isn’t a level playing field. The right will always come off as extreme and hateful, the left just passionate.

    It’s stunning how much the media controls even the framing of debate.

    Dana (0f0b2e)

  64. Re #56, here’s what Churchill had to say of history,
    History will be kind to me for I intend to write it.
    Sir Winston Churchill
    British politician (1874 – 1965)

    And he did!

    Gazzer (6d46a4)

  65. “Because proportional representation is a form of direct-democracy.”

    – AD – RtR/OS!

    How do you figure? People still elect representatives to speak and legislate on their behalf under a system of proportional representation – the mechanism is just different.

    “Direct democracy is a wonderful ideal, and works tolerably at the town-meeting level, but is completely impractical for a large, diverse, industrial nation such as ours, where there are too many factions that would have to be accomodated.”

    – AD-RtR/OS!

    With my disagreement with your terming proportional representation “direct democracy” already noted, people made the same arguments against Madison’s form of republicanism: he responded with Federalist #10, saying that the diversity of interests in such a large country was a strength, and not a weakness, because competing factions kept one another at bay.

    “In a pure democracy, two men and a woman are stranded on a desert island. The men take a vote on having sex with the woman. The motion carries: Two to One.”

    – AD-RtR/OS!

    How is that any different than the system we have now (leaving the Supreme Court out of things)? If two thirds of our current governing bodies want something, it’s going to pass, and the other third is going to get screwed. I mean, you can amend the Constitution with two thirds of both Houses… so what’s the difference?

    Leviticus (f565c1)

  66. Apogee @ 44;
    You are right, of course. Both parties essentially control who runs, and where, because they control the money and support. That is why I think our system is broken. It saddens and frustrates me, but you articulate the problem better than I, but you also clarify my thoughts and I thank you. Not so long ago my cry to “throw the bums out” would actually have resulted in armed insurrection. These days it is much harder. I believe the time is ripe for a third party to emerge. If a credible candidate could run on a platform of smaller gubmint, no lobbyists at all, and term limits, I believe he/she would do well. So long as they adhered to those guidelines. Too often, they arrive in DC and are overcome by the power.

    Gazzer (6d46a4)

  67. Ag80 @ #6: “No matter how well-meaning, invoking National Socialism — no matter which side you’re on — is not only a losing game, it diminishes the horror and tragedy of the Nazi regime.”

    Of course, the Nazis started somewhere!

    Ira (28a423)

  68. Fascism – A philosophy or system of government that advocates or exercises a dictatorship of the extreme right, typically through the merging of state and business leadership, together with an ideology of belligerent nationalism.” source- remember.org

    That tired old meme is ideologically flawed and demonstrably false. Fascism requires State control of private assets, and is a totalitarian system. This is not the opposite of a Representative Republic, but is a necessary step in the transition from a Free-market economy to a Socialist economy. A state must first go through fascism to achieve socialism.

    In pre-WW2 Germany, the “Conservatives” would have been the supporters of the Weimar Republic. The Nazis styled themselves as a “worker’s movement” and the “progressive” party. A party of the people. And they were. Hitler was the “People’s Führer”.

    Far from wanting to seize control, today’s Conservatives mostly want the Government to leave us the hell alone. Guard the borders, maintain the roads, and stick to the enumerated powers. You could make the case that the Anarchists belong on the extreme right instead of the extreme left, and I won’t argue.

    The Democrat Party has seized control of banking and industries, and is on the verge of nationalizing another 1/5 of our economy. Hitler and the National Socialists also used nationalism and hatred to rally public will. Well, the beltway party has recently invoked our patriotism and religion in order to advance their unpopular agenda. Today, the daily five-minutes of hate comes directly from the Democrat Party’s fax machines. And you don’t hear calls for the elimination of Israel from the right-wingers. Today’s left-wing is not only unashamedly calling for Israel’s elimination but espousing a hatred of Jews in general. And frequently call for the death of those who express alternate opinions. Does “the elimination of twenty-five million” sound familiar?

    LaRouche, Phelps and fellow travelers may pose as right-wingers, but actually advocate a totalitarian Government . Under their control, of course. They do not belong in right-wing classification.

    “Fascism is right-wing” is a lie started by Democrats during and after the war in order to smear their opponents. About the same time as they started insisting that the US was a Democracy instead of a Republic. Tell a lie often enough, and people begin will believe it. Orwell would have approved. And it worked,as evidenced by yourself, DCSCA. You might embody the adage “Everything I learned in school is wrong”.

    Btw- Is it an accident that the leading liberal of our time is the son of a Nazi collaborator?

    Also- How asinine is it that Government Officials are accusing the people of stifling the Government’s free speech? I don’t know whether to laugh of cry…

    RB (0772e7)

  69. #57 — Comment by DCSCA — 8/22/2009 @ 10:13 pm

    Implying parity is ridiculous when comparing the remarks of those American citizens who referred to a leftist politician as a Nazi, versus the Speaker of the House calling some American citizens Nazis.

    Pons Asinorum (20c241)

  70. @ #57 — Fascism – A philosophy or system of government that advocates or exercises a dictatorship of the extreme right, typically through the merging of state and business leadership, together with an ideology of belligerent nationalism.” source- remember.org

    @68 — That tired old meme is ideologically flawed and demonstrably false. Fascism requires State control of private assets, and is a totalitarian system. This is not the opposite of a Representative Republic, but is a necessary step in the transition from a Free-market economy to a Socialist economy. A state must first go through fascism to achieve socialism.

    RB, you are accurate.

    The individual you were attempting to correct is the same creature who derived some sort of internal, mental justification that allowed him to mock Senator McCain for drawing a paycheck from the US government while serving his country in uniform. The same McCain that was captured and subsequently tortured by the enemy; and to this day, still suffers and bears the injuries inflicted more than 30-years ago. In the creature’s judgment and to his shame, he found this fitting to mock.

    Obviously, if he can justify that kind of thinking, he can justify anything. His assertions, conclusions and judgments can be safely ignored.

    Pons Asinorum (20c241)

  71. RB – Fascism requires State control of private assets, and is a totalitarian system… A state must first go through fascism to achieve socialism.

    Agreed, however I would argue that in order to gain the control for totalitarianism, Fascists would start more slowly and instigate Socialism to control said assets.

    Once the state is the owner of the assets, Fascism surely follows as the populace can no longer withhold from the state.

    Apogee (e2dc9b)

  72. PA, I think that poster you mention either posts while intoxicated, or honestly has no memory what he has posted in the past. He doesn’t appear to consider that people read what he has written in the past, and remember it.

    This is why his bizarre tall tales of his personal connections with greatness are important to keep in mind. If he tells those sorts of stories, why should anyone take him seriously?

    In addition, his calls for civility, given his own prior behavior on line (as you note regarding Senator McCain), are a sign of what kind of person he is, or (again) that he has some kind of medical condition.

    He is sort of an acidic buffoon.

    Eric Blair (a88004)

  73. “You can draw far-fetched parallels between the Democratic/Republican Party and the Nazis all the live-long day, but the end result is always the same: you look like an idiot.”

    And, you can also draw perfectly valid parallels between the Democrats (only) and the Nazis, staring with their shared fondness for employing alsve labor…and moving forward from that point, and not look one bit like an idiot, though when one does so, Dembots get a glazed look in their eye and start trying to change the subject.

    Dave Surls (20f54c)

  74. Comment by Eric Blair — 8/23/2009 @ 12:44 am

    Completely agree, Eric. He was even disingenuous about his source when attributing Giovanni Gentile’s 1932 definition of fascism to remember.org. The remember.org website is dedicated to documenting and preserving information about the Holocaust; absolutely nothing about Giovanni Gentile’s definition — it is not even mentioned.

    In addition, modern definitions have long since abandoned the 1932 construction. All can be easily found in standard reference materials:

    Merriam-Webster
    Cambridge
    encarta
    Newbury House.

    Of course, an honorable person would have at least acknowledged it, but why let such inconvenient notions like honor get in the way.

    Pons Asinorum (20c241)

  75. Oh, I forgot the American Heritage dictionary. They had the Gentile defintion and have since abondoned it.

    Pons Asinorum (20c241)

  76. #74- “The remember.org website is dedicated to documenting and preserving information about the Holocaust; absolutely nothing about Giovanni Gentile’s definition — it is not even mentioned.” Hmmmmm. I see. You don’t.

    Facist Ideology

    Fascist ideology was largely the work of the neo-idealist philosopher, Giovanni Gentile. It emphasized the subordination of the individual to a “totalitarian” state that was to control all aspects of national life. Violence as a creative force was an important characteristic of the Fascist philosophy. A special feature of Italian Fascism was the attempt to eliminate the class struggle from history through nationalism and the corporate state. Mussolini organized the economy and all “producers” – from peasants and factory workers to intellectuals and industrialists – into 22 corporations as a means of improving productivity and avoiding industrial disputes. Contrary to the regime’s propaganda claims, the system ran poorly. Mussolini was forced into compromises with big business and the Roman Catholic Church. The corporate state was never fully implemented. The inherently expansionist, militaristic nature of Fascism contributed to imperialistic adventures in Ethiopia and the Balkans and ultimately to World War II.”- source, remember.org

    Rest easy. New reading glasses for you may very well be covered under the public option when health care is reformed.

    DCSCA (9d1bb3)

  77. #68 – Remember that Nationalism and Hatred are also a key component of Socialism. Stalin promoted oppression of Jews, Kulaks and anyone else that raised his ire. He was responsible for as many as 40 million deaths. Made Adolf look like a wanna-be. Not to be outdone, Mao is credited w/ maybe 60 million. Sputnik was all about a Nationalistic show of force. And how could we forget the Mayday parades and other shows of Socialist might, a feature of every people’s state. The first thing any people’s dictator does is done a military uniform and give himself a title. Socialist, Fascist, not a dime’s worth of difference.

    Chuck Roast (12f134)

  78. #77 – “done” = “don”. It’s 5:39 Sunday morning here, and I’m drunk. What’s your excuse?

    Chuck Roast (12f134)

  79. #76- header typo – Fascist Ideology

    DCSCA (9d1bb3)

  80. Does it matter at all that German notions of racial purity found common cause and “scientific” support from a league of Californian Democrats, acedemics, and non profit philantropic foundations infested with progressive political activists?
    The only wonder I see is that the list of names involved are the same cretins who push the “NAZI=rightwing” hogwash today.

    Got projection much?
    Carnegie Institute, Rockefeller Foundation, Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford = these faceless entites are still pushing the hate speech.

    How is this madness allowed to continue?

    papertiger (b56000)

  81. #68- A state must first go through fascism to achieve socialism. Hmmm.

    Socialism in Post-war Britain.

    “Another example of applied socialism began just after World War II. Great Britain’s storied leader during the devastating war, Prime Minister Winston Churchill, shockingly was defeated in re-election by Clement Atlee, a virtual unknown outside of Britain. Atlee was the head of the Labour Party, a democratic socialist party established in 1900, while Churchill was head of the conservative party, also known as the Tory Party. After World War II, much of Britain was fed up with healthcare concerns and labor problems, and many people didn’t believe that Churchill’s Tory party would effect any change. Atlee’s socialist party addressed these issues by nationalizing industry and creating a free healthcare system.” -source, howstuffworks.com

    To think Churchill, his party and the free world thought he was a conservative fighting fascism, not a fascist himself. But hey, if you say so… Heil Winnie!

    DCSCA (9d1bb3)

  82. #80 -Well said. The Eugenics movement (and the notion of racial superiority) was just as popular w/ the American Progressives/Liberals as it was w/ the Nazis. Kinda disappeared during the hostilities. (Wonder why?)

    Someone once said that FDR would’ve been behind Hitler all the way if he hadn’t attacked Uncle Joe. Seems worth noting again.

    Chuck Roast (12f134)

  83. #81 – So you think Churchill being deposed and replaced by his ideological opposite means he was fighting for fascism? I may be drunk, but I still can’t wrap myself around that one. Explain? And maybe a more substantial source than howstuffworks?

    Chuck Roast (12f134)

  84. Of course all this is real simple to prove me wrong – link it; odd that you didn’t (or can’t).

    The definition that you cited @33 is Giovanni Gentile’s definition, verbatim. You quoted it and did not credit the author. Instead, you falsely claimed it as being sourced by remember.org.

    Now you come up with a new quotation @76. Yes, it does mention Giovanni Gentile (a bio), but again no mention of his quotation which you wrote verbatim.

    His definition is not to be found anywhere at remember.org.

    To be clear: Giovanni Gentile’s definition ! = Giovanni Gentile’s bio.

    My original statement is true: “The remember.org website is dedicated to documenting and preserving information about the Holocaust; absolutely nothing about Giovanni Gentile’s definition — it is not even mentioned.”

    Not sure where you found Gentile’s definition because you failed to link it, but it was not at remember.org as you falsely claimed. The point was to prove you are disingenuous, which you now did — twice.

    Pons Asinorum (20c241)

  85. #84 directed at Comment by DCSCA — 8/23/2009 @ 2:12 am

    Pons Asinorum (20c241)

  86. What I would give to have been there to give that Marine a standing ovation. Someone should run for Congress indeed.

    Peg C. (48175e)

  87. Comment by Leviticus — 8/22/2009 @ 6:53 pm

    Other than the mass murder, what part of fascism would you oppose?

    N. O'Brain (a4f63e)

  88. Fascism – A philosophy or system of government that advocates or exercises a dictatorship of the extreme right left….

    TFTFY

    N. O'Brain (a4f63e)

  89. Why do you even bother reading the IMP, much less respond to it?

    There’s no way to debate someone who simply and repeatedly Makes Stuff Up.

    steve miller (c5e78c)

  90. However, I am glad that the IMP represents the Pelosi side of the argument. He does not increase the respect I have for that side of the aisle.

    steve miller (c5e78c)

  91. You reich-wingnutz are a bunch of racist national socialist fascists. DSCSA told us so, so it must be true.

    JD (a79349)

  92. Of course, JD, he wrote all that at 3AM with a bunch of empty Mickey’s Big Mouth bottles clinking on the TV table.

    Eric Blair (2158da)

  93. “Other than the mass murder, what part of fascism would you oppose?”

    – N. O’Brain

    Why don’t you list off the aspects of the “fascism” we’re talking about first, since there seems to be some dispute in that regard (everyone’s own personal certainty aside). I’ll go from there.

    Leviticus (f565c1)

  94. It was wrong for Pelosi to bring it up, and it is stupid for her opponents to continue to use it.

    steve miller (c5e78c)

  95. While many of the comments ,and the back and forth here are thoughtful historical analyses ,I would point out that what we are seeing is more akin to a societal yardstick that is reflecting the enormous discontent of average people in general. The nascent liberty movement is now flooded with newly awakened folks who dont even know they are part of a movement,yet.

    Sailfished (b32b4e)

  96. I’d love to know what the congressman said about indoctrinating “educating” your children, which set the Marine off.

    Patricia (29a01d)

  97. Is DSCSA trying to say that Atlee’s Labour Party is a model for our future, that this happy state can be obtained without having to through Fascism?

    Lessee, it wasn’t 5 years after Labour took over that they were requiring government approval for workers to change jobs, and contemplating the added efficiency that government-assigned jobs would bring.

    Not to mention legislative confiscation of property with above-100% tax rates on the wealthy.

    Yeah, that’s a model all right. No wonder the same folks hate private gun ownership.

    Kevin Murphy (3c3db0)

  98. Good question, Kevin, I suspect that part was not mentioned on the website that the International Man of Parody was plagiarizing.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  99. fascism /fzm/ n. [U] a political system in which one party, run by a person with great power, has total control over industry, banking, and the military:

    fas·cism [ fá shìzzəm ] or Fas·cism [ fá shìzzəm ] noun Definition: dictatorial movement: any movement, ideology, or attitude that favors dictatorial government, centralized control of private enterprise, repression of all opposition, and extreme nationalism

    fas·cism noun: a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition

    fascism noun [U] a political system based on a very powerful leader, state control of social and economic life, and extreme pride in country and race, with no expression of political disagreement allowed

    That’s what I said.

    RB (0772e7)

  100. “Proportional representation”, in the context of electoral systems, is simply the principle that political parties should win seats in proportion to the votes they receive, nothing more and nothing less. There are a number of different types of voting system that will achieve proportional representation.

    Proportional voting systems are used in most developed countries, and have been for most of the last century, since the evolution of the modern political party as a machine to elect people. Proportional representation provides the means of holding political parties accountable to voters.

    Proportional representation is considered a fundamental democratic principle in countries where it is used.

    For more info: http://www.fairvote.org

    Wayne Smith (4a6a51)

  101. Frankly, Wayne, proportional representation is un-American.

    Not to mention it would require not merely a Constitutional amendment, but a complete Constitutional revision to accomplish.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  102. #90 — Comment by steve miller — 8/23/2009 @ 5:49 am

    However, I am glad that the IMP represents the Pelosi side of the argument. He does not increase the respect I have for that side of the aisle.

    You know, me too Steve. I mentioned before that he is the perfect Obama supporter (not too bright, incompetent and dishonest). In this thread alone he has demonstrated those qualities.

    He quoted a definition of fascism that has long been replaced in current standard references (not too bright).

    Worse, his citation for that quote was false, all of which I pointed out (incompetent).

    He then tried to claim his citation was valid by linking a different quotation to the same citation (dishonest)!

    Aside from all these foibles, which are quite frankly forgivable and forgettable, there is one thing that that truly marks him as reprehensible. He chose to mock the Service of a Uniformed American Sailor who served in one of our nation’s wars, was captured and tortured for that service, and still bears those unhealing wounds decades later.

    Why do you even bother reading the IMP, much less respond to it?

    There’s no way to debate someone who simply and repeatedly Makes Stuff Up.

    In truth, I had just returned from drinking ( 🙂 ), was about to call it a night, logged-on and viewed his attempt to bring parity between the Speaker of the House calling American citizens Nazis, with American citizens calling the Speaker of the House a Nazi. It was a waste of time and I should not have engaged (not to mention a bit boring, my apologies).

    I agree with you; I should have left him in his hole, where he is free to whisper to the shadows about what a “great man” he is, with no worries about logic, truthfulness or facts; free to mock other recognized Great Men, lest they reveal his own inadequacies.

    Pons Asinorum (20c241)

  103. Everyone! check this out! This is happens on the streets, in the light of day, in Nancy Pelosi’s district. I’m sure glad I am not a parent raising my kids in the neighborhood of the Folsom St Fair. http://folsomstreetfair.org/images/ads/sh_stack_115x150b.jpg

    anonimo (890ae3)

  104. One great impediment to proportional representation (PR) is the American propensity to “vote for the man, not the Party”.
    With PR, no names are listed, only the Party.
    It goes against the grain of the average American’s concept of how Government relates to the individual, and vice-versa. After all, in our system, as documented in the Declaration of Independance, the Constitution, and the writings of the Founders, the individual(s) is sovereign, and only grants to government those powers that they wish to delegate to further “a more perfect Union”.
    Even in our most basic for of democracy, the New England Town Meeting, each citizen of the township is an elector who casts a vote for an individual Selectman, not for the Mugwump Party.

    AD - RtR/OS! (12f8f2)

  105. “104.One great impediment to proportional representation (PR) is the American propensity to “vote for the man, not the Party”.
    With PR, no names are listed, only the Party”

    – AD-RtR/OS!

    That’s true, and I agree that it’s a significant impediment; that doesn’t make PR direct democracy, though.

    Leviticus (f565c1)

  106. It’s Marine Corps, not Corp.

    It’s a military organization, not a corporation…

    [Thank you, TheBronze. I’ll fix it and I bet I never make that mistake again. — DRJ]

    thebronze (bfd7b6)

  107. Who was the first to godwin the health care debate? Does it matter?

    imdw (0172f3)

  108. I dunno. I kind of take offense to being called a brownshirt…

    Scott Jacobs (d027b8)

  109. Not mine, I read this somewhere: The government complains that the people are oppessing its speech.

    nk (c004f4)

  110. Pons,

    I hope you took no offense. I get tired of IMP, because he is just…bizarre.

    I really enjoy a good discussion with people who don’t agree with me, as long as we stick to data.

    When it gets to snark, not so much fun, but hey, we can banter.

    When it becomes made-up facts and fantasy, there’s really no reason to have a discussion.

    steve miller (0fb51f)

  111. Don’t worry. IMP will be back tonight, Mickey’s Big Mouth in hand, speaking Troof to Powder.

    Sigh.

    Eric Blair (0b61b2)

  112. @111 — Steve, no worries. Everything you said was accurate and I completely agree. Who isn’t sick of IMP? Engaging him is pointless (absolutely agree), however I will occasionally remind new readers of his mocking of an honored US Serviceman. This typically makes him go away.

    I do try to stay with the subject of the thread, initially. I simply exploit a falsehood or logical fallacy stated by him (extremely easy) then tie it to his past, shameful comment. More often than not, he counters with some disingenuous response (highly predictable), the I try to couple that response with his shameful comment again; sort of an amplification effect.

    Usually, he disappears shortly thereafter :-), but not always 🙁

    @112 — Eric that is too funny– and dead-on! Maybe we should start some kind of betting pool as to the time IMP “arrives” 🙂

    Pons Asinorum (20c241)

  113. “I kind of take offense to being called a brownshirt…”

    Really? Anytime some Democrat twat starts talking about Republicans and brownshirts, I just respond with three letters:

    K K K.

    Dave Surls (a7bc21)

  114. “If Nancy Pelosi wants to find a Swastika maybe the first place she should look is the sleeve of her own arm.”

    Yup, that would be the place to look all right.

    Dave Surls (a7bc21)

  115. “Anytime some Democrat twat starts talking about Republicans and brownshirts, I just respond with three letters:

    K K K.”

    That paragon of liberalism.

    [note: fished from spam filter]

    imdw (034b9e)

  116. Which party did the KKK affiliate themselves with, imdw?

    JD PhD (927cb2)

  117. Comment by Leviticus — 8/23/2009 @ 1:34 pm

    Please list those countries that use PR and also describe themelves as Republics (in fact, not the pseudo-republics like the PRNK, etc.), I would be interested if there are any.

    AD - RtR/OS! (12f8f2)

  118. China, Congo does by “Democratic republic” or some such…

    Usually, any country that uses “Republic”, “People’s” or “Democratic” in their name are rather dictatorial, and the more words used, the more dictatorial they are.

    Scott Jacobs (d027b8)

  119. I, David William Hedrick, a member of the loudmouth caucus, decided that I was going to get my fifteen minutes of fame. So, I insulted U.S. Congressman Brian Baird by calling him a domestic enemy with no evidence whatsoever. I was one questioner out of 38, that was called at random from an audience that started at 3,000 earlier in the evening. Not expecting to be given this opportunity to preen, I quickly scratched what I wanted to shout on a borrowed piece of paper and with a pen that I borrowed from someone else in the audience minutes before I spoke. So much for any coherent analysis of the needs and impacts of health care reform in the U.S.

    Anandakos (0ddbcc)

  120. “Which party did the KKK affiliate themselves with, imdw?”

    You do have to admire brassy nerve of the Dems. After using the KKK (not to mention local police forces) as a terror organization to enforce their racial purity laws for generations…they then have the audacity to turn around and accuse others of being Nazis and brownshirts.

    Talk about audacity.

    Dave Surls (a7bc21)

  121. Seems like a pussy move to go to some dude’s town hall and complain about someone else being a Nazi.

    This guy’s an idiot. “STAY AWAY FROM MY KIDS!” Uh… no one’s trying to do anything to your – “THANK YOU FOR LETTING US KEEP OUR HEALTHCARE!!” Okay… just trying to explain to you what the plan does and doesn’t do, there’s a lot of misinform- “NANCY PELOSI IS A NAZI!”

    Sheesh. I wonder if this guy gets even remotely as worked up thinking about about all the Marines that George Bush has gotten killed over the years.

    Smitt (643f82)

  122. Nice dishonest revisionist approach, Smitt.

    [note: fished from spam filter]

    Paul (creator of "Staunch Brayer") (3b3b67)

  123. “Which party did the KKK affiliate themselves with, imdw?

    Comment by JD PhD — 8/23/2009 @ 9:32 pm”

    The party of Thurgood Marshall and Earl Warren? The KKK wanted to conserve what liberals wanted to undo. Thankfully the liberals won out.

    imdw (de7003)

  124. The KKK wanted to conserve what liberals wanted to undo.

    No, actually…

    What party blocked the Civil Right Act, and which party has the only two members who were actually IN the KKK?

    Scott Jacobs (d027b8)

  125. “What party blocked the Civil Right Act, and which party has the only two members who were actually IN the KKK?”

    Thankfully all those young republicans and their freedom rides brought liberal interventionism to the reactionary terror states of the south.

    Face it my friends. The civil rights struggle is one of conservatism vs. liberalism, often within the democratic party. There was a right and a wrong side. It’s ok to say that you prefer the civil rights act and it’s intervention with private property and expanded view of the commerce clause. Really. Specially if you need to do so to somehow make some point about the klan as if it were relevant to today’s democratic party.

    [note: fished from spam filter]

    imdw (cd5d35)

  126. Smitt and imdw are trying to one-up each other here this morning.

    JD (1255f0)

  127. You can’t blame them. History isn’t taught except through the current revisionism in the schools. I can promise you that neither one of them knew a darned thing about the Civil Rights Act before it was brought up here—other than a knee jerk reaction that opposition to the CRA was Republican-led.

    Which it wasn’t.

    But the truth doesn’t fit Teh Narrative™. And that is all that is important to these trollish types. I don’t think they actually care about facts. They are just alphabetists.

    Eric Blair (a88004)

  128. Thankfully all those young republicans and their freedom rides brought liberal interventionism to the reactionary terror states of the south.

    Yeah, they really did.

    And of course a party with names like Al Gore and Robert Byrd has a lot of relationship with the KKK. Of course the KKK is relevant. There are few organizations with the racist histories to match the Unions the democrats still rely on.

    you can pretend that somehow the democrats stopped being the party of racial hatred, but sadly, they are. All I want is for government to be colorblind. That’s always been the republican way.

    Juan (bd4b30)

  129. “…somehow make some point about the klan as if it were relevant to today’s democratic party.”

    LOL. Always the same deal with lefties.

    When someone (correctly) accuses Democrats of being like Nazis (in both their totalitarian ideology, and in the tactics they employ) they fly into a rage and scream “How dare you?”

    Then someone on the right demonstrates how they ARE like Nazis.

    Then they say: “That was then this is now…you can trust us not to do it again…now give us total control of your health care…for your own good.”

    Hardy har har.

    Very predictable…very funny.

    Here’s what’s going to happen with government controlled health care (liberal style).

    “PORTLAND, Ore. — Some terminally ill patients in Oregon who turned to their state for health care were denied treatment and offered doctor-assisted suicide instead, a proposal some experts have called a “chilling” corruption of medical ethics.”

    “Since the spread of his prostate cancer, 53-year-old Randy Stroup of Dexter, Ore., has been in a fight for his life. Uninsured and unable to pay for expensive chemotherapy, he applied to Oregon’s state-run health plan for help.”

    “Lane Individual Practice Association (LIPA), which administers the Oregon Health Plan in Lane County, responded to Stroup’s request with a letter saying the state would not cover Stroup’s pricey treatment, but would pay for the cost of physician-assisted suicide.”

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,392962,00.html

    Once they have the power…they’re going to use government controlled health care to kill people they have no use for. Liberals have done that in the past (Tuskegee Syphillis Experiment), they’re working on it in ultra-liberal Oregon…and if they get control at the national level…it’ll be happening all the time.

    Liberals are totalitarians. They don’t care about people…they care about power. They’ve behaved like Nazis over, and over and over again, and they’re doing it now in Oregon…and if you’ve give them the power of life and death over you…they’re going to use it.

    Dave Surls (502db9)

  130. “…The party of Thurgood Marshall and Earl Warren…”

    Curious, I never knew that Thurgood Marshall was a Republican?

    AD - RtR/OS! (cbe8a1)

  131. “you can pretend that somehow the democrats stopped being the party of racial hatred, but sadly, they are.”

    They’re the party that’s losing whites and gaining minorities and even making them president. Racial hatred?

    “Then someone on the right demonstrates how they ARE like Nazis.”

    Hey a larouche fan!

    imdw (d54c8c)

  132. ‘…Political insurgency and partisan violence surged again. From the mid-1870s on in the Deep South, violence rose. In Mississippi, Louisiana, the Carolinas and Florida especially, the Democratic Party relied on paramilitary “White Line” groups such as the White Camelia to terrorize, intimidate and assassinate African American and white Republicans in an organized drive to regain power. In Mississippi it was the Red Shirts; in Louisiana the White League that were paramilitary carrying out goals of the Democratic Party to suppress black voting. Insurgents targeted politically active African Americans and also loosed violence in general community intimidation. These were not lynchings but organized paramilitary actions. Grant’s desire to keep Ohio in the Republican aisle and his attorney general’s maneuvering led to a failure to support the Mississippi governor with Federal troops. The Democrats’ campaign of terror worked. In Yazoo County, for instance, with a Negro population of 12,000, only seven votes were cast for Republicans. In 1875 Democrats swept into power in the state legislature.[11]’

    ‘Once Democrats regained power in Mississippi, Democrats in other states adopted the “Mississippi Plan” to control the election of 1876, using informal armed militias to assassinate political leaders, hunt down community members, intimidate and turn away voters, effectively suppressing African American suffrage and civil rights. In state after state, Democrats swept back to power. [12] From 1868 to 1876, most years had 50-100 lynchings.’–wiki

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynching_in_the_United_States

    The proud history of the DemoKKKrat Party and their brownshirts.

    Like the Nazis?

    Oh, hell yes.

    But, hey don’t worry. They won’t EVER do it again.

    Trust me.

    And, be sure to sign up for government controlled health care under the gentle rule of the Democrats, because all they’ve EVER cared about is the welfare of those they have power over.

    “Lane Individual Practice Association (LIPA), which administers the Oregon Health Plan in Lane County, responded to Stroup’s request with a letter saying the state would not cover Stroup’s pricey treatment, but would pay for the cost of physician-assisted suicide.”

    See what I mean?

    Dave Surls (502db9)

  133. My daughter was a prison guard in Iraq for 15 months. Prisoners told her directly that they would rather spend 1000 (that’s one thousand, for you in Rio Linda) years in a US Army prison than one day with the Iraqi Police. And you libturds want to accuse my daughter of being a terrorist criminal in her treatment of suspected terrorists and non-Iraqi insurgents? (Insurgent means not of that nation, for those of you in Rio Linda.)

    And never mind the fact that I have spoken to numerous members of the military, enlisted and commissioned, who have been to Iraq. Never mind the fact that they all say the same thing: Iraqis are very thankful US military is there. Never mind several members of the military have disregarded their constitutional lack of first amendment rights and declared their distaste for BO (body odor) Obama, their CIC and openly stated they know he has zero respect for the military.

    Don’t give me this BDS line of crap about Boooooosh killing Marines! I actually tried to re-inlist (this time in the Army) but KC lost all my govt paperwork from two decades ago so I couldn’t, but I went thru MEPS and the over-40 phys in the attempt.

    John Hitchcock (3fd153)

  134. Tell your daughter that if she’s ever in the same city as me, the first round is on me.

    Scott Jacobs (d027b8)

  135. And if she isn’t 21 yet, the first two round are on me…

    What? Too soon? 🙂

    Scott Jacobs (d027b8)

  136. “The proud history of the DemoKKKrat Party and their brownshirts.”

    When in that history did black people start voting democratic?

    ““Lane Individual Practice Association (LIPA), which administers the Oregon Health Plan in Lane County, responded to Stroup’s request with a letter saying the state would not cover Stroup’s pricey treatment, but would pay for the cost of physician-assisted suicide.”

    See what I mean?”

    Yeah. The Nazis sent out letters denying ineffective treatment. Just like Oregon.

    imdw (81eb09)

  137. “The Nazis sent out letters denying ineffective treatment.”

    Now, now. Don’t start lying in order to try and justify the Nazi-like behavior of those bureaucrats up there in Democrat controlled Lane County.

    “For Stroup, however, suicide was never an option. He fought back, and the Oregon Health Plan eventually reversed its decision and is now paying for his chemotherapy, giving him hope he’ll be around a little longer for his 80-year-old mother and five grandchildren.”

    They just didn’t want to pay for it, that’s all. Cheaper to let the guy die from lack of medicine, or better yet, to induce him to let a doctor “assist” him to commit suicide.

    Are liberals like Nazis? Well, the Nazis had snazzier looking uniforms, but the liberal Democrats are pretty darned close.

    Close enough that I wouldn’t trust them with a burnt out match, much less control over my health casr.

    Dave Surls (066cb4)

  138. But, there’s nothing new about Democrats getting people onto government run health care programs, and then murdering them by refusing to provide them with the medicine they need. That’s exactly what they did in the 1940s in the Tuskegee Syphillis Experiment, a medical “experiment” that would have done Dr. Mengele proud.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_Study_of_Untreated_Syphilis_in_the_Negro_Male

    “By the end of the study in 1972, only 74 of the test subjects were alive. 28 of the original 399 men had died of syphilis, 100 were dead of related complications, 40 of their wives had been infected, and 19 of their children had been born with congenital syphilis.”

    But, hey what’s it matter that 128 people were murdered in cold-blood by the PHS, and that women and children were infected with syphillis. The important thing is is that everyone have government controlled health care, dude.

    I mean…it’s for your own good.

    Dave Surls (066cb4)


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