Patterico's Pontifications

8/7/2009

How Little Things Have Changed

Filed under: General,Government — Jack Dunphy @ 1:14 pm



[Guest post by Jack Dunphy]

A quote for today:

“If, from the more wretched parts of the old world, we look at those which are in an advanced stage of improvement, we still find the greedy hand of government thrusting itself into every corner and crevice of industry, and grasping the spoil of the multitude. Invention is continually exercised, to furnish new pretenses for revenues and taxation. It watches prosperity as its prey and permits none to escape without tribute.” –Thomas Paine, Rights of Man, 1791

Amen, Mr. Paine.

–Jack Dunphy

30 Responses to “How Little Things Have Changed”

  1. Amen Indeed. I also like this one from John Adams:

    “There are two ways to conquer and enslave a nation. One is by the sword, the other is by debt.”

    J. Raymond Wright (d83ab3)

  2. Why are you a fan of Mr Paine?

    He was widely regarded as an anarchist(read:Libertarian) in the 18th century, and if you lived at that time you would likely have been calling for his arrest and public flogging, judging by your past material.

    celticdragon (d789b5)

  3. Off thread:

    More fun with the police…

    Two Wisconsin National Guardsmen . . .

    Off the thread and now off the post. Stick to the topic, please. Try it again and you’re in the spam filter. –Jack Dunphy

    celticdragon (d789b5)

  4. Stick to the topic, please. Try it again and you’re in the spam filter.

    Touchy, aren’t we?

    Maybe you can start by responding to the original question, Dunphy…

    celticdragon (d789b5)

  5. That is:

    Why are you a fan of Mr Paine, and how do you square that with your own political beliefs, which seem wildly divergent from those of aforementioned Mr Paine.

    It should be interesting.

    celticdragon (d789b5)

  6. Since Mr. Paine generally confined himself to discussions of political philosophy, and never physically attacked anyone, or deprived them of their livlihoods or property, I would doubt that he would ever be the center of attention of Officer Dunphy’s enforcement of the laws.

    Professional agitators, on the other hand…

    AD - RtR/OS! (7ba5f7)

  7. The one thing I keep thinking about this president is that it’s going to take less than one term to destroy everything the founding fathers died for. And celticdragon, don’t you have some old ladies to go intimidate?

    rochf (ae9c58)

  8. It should be interesting.

    Mr. Dragon: Interesting to you perhaps, but almost certainly not to me. Our time on Earth is short. I’ll not waste one minute of mine engaged in debate with the likes of you. If others should choose to amuse themselves by doing so, that’s up to them. I would sooner spend the time driving hot spikes into my skull.

    I’ll be otherwise engaged the rest of the day, so I leave it to our host and my fellow guest bloggers to see to it that you mind your manners.

    Jack Dunphy (38fbdf)

  9. I’ll deal with celticdragon, Jack Dunphy, and thanks for posting this timely Thomas Paine excerpt.

    DRJ (8d138b)

  10. Everything is relative.

    The idea of near anarchism makes more sense when you live in a world of horses, prairies, farms, primitive firearms, and lords.

    Today, everyone’s grandma drives a car that can go 100 mph, we have nuclear weapons, we have electricity and water purification. A person working at McDonalds can live better than anyone alive 200 years ago. We need government in a way we didn’t need it in the 18th century. The principles that guided Thomas Paine are wonderful if you can square it with today’s needs. Which Dunphy can do. A lot of people can. It’s not that hard.

    Celtic doesn’t understand how that works. Belief in government sensibility isn’t a binary question. People who support some level of government are not automatically incompatible with the excellent ideals that guided classical liberalism, libertarianism, etc.

    Juan (bd4b30)

  11. I’m sure there are other blogs where celticgragon can talk about his piss fetish.

    daleyrocks (718861)

  12. I understand celticdragon being upset, especially with regards to the news of late that simple opposition and expression of anger at elected officials is somehow indicative of criminal behavior. The next stop on that parade route is obviously the restriction of such ‘free speech’ behavior, and it is the police who will be tasked with enforcing such restrictions.

    Unfortunately, celticdragon has aimed its ire at the wrong target.

    Dunphy is a fan of Paine, hence the post, and that is to be applauded, not derided. cd, would you rather that he quote Karl Marx or Castro, like Obama’s friends?

    The single most important thing to remember is that without the police to enforce their illegal suppression of free speech, the government has essentially no power.

    We need more cops asking questions, and more importantly, the right questions. Dunphy knows the importance of these issues, and I support his input.

    cd, If you want to group people together by occupation, religion, race or any other implied category of thought in order to attack a ‘bigger truth’, then you might want to try another website. Dunphy’s not the problem. The problem is the Obama administration and our elected officials, who seem to feel that they rule over the citizenry by holy decree. At least, that’s what I get from their current attitudes. They always seem to get very nervous when asked to explain legislation that (this time) literally has life and death implications.

    Why is that?

    Apogee (e2dc9b)

  13. The next stop on that parade route is obviously the restriction of such ‘free speech’ behavior, and it is the police who will be tasked with enforcing such restrictions.

    True, but I am suspicious of whoever is in the office, to be sure. Bush was no friend of civil liberties…

    Unfortunately, celticdragon has aimed its ire at the wrong target.

    Jack approvingly cited a quote from someone who was more in line with Balko’s political realm than his. Go figure. (???)

    By the way, I’m a “her”.

    Dunphy is a fan of Paine, hence the post, and that is to be applauded, not derided. cd, would you rather that he quote Karl Marx or Castro, like Obama’s friends?

    Uh, no. I would not be happy with anyone who was a fan of Marx, Stalin, Castro, Idi Amin or any of their ilk. Where is your citation that Obama is a fan of the above? I have quite enough to be unhappy with him without wretched excess demonizing. (Don’t get me started on canceling the F-22!)

    The single most important thing to remember is that without the police to enforce their illegal suppression of free speech, the government has essentially no power.

    Never heard of brownshirts? To use a contemporary example, check out Robert Mugabe(and I am not in any way comparing this administration or the previous to Mugabe!)

    Mugabe did not have to use state security services to intimidate and murder, since “veterans” from FAPLA were more then willing to go to farms and homes of political opponents to intimidate, burn and murder as needed. The bonus, of course, was any farm thus “liberated” was now theirs! Fun, right? That is not the case here, obviously, but don’t make the mistake of thinking that uniformed services are the only tool of thuggery an authoritarian state can use.

    We need more cops asking questions, and more importantly, the right questions.

    No argument from me.

    cd, If you want to group people together by occupation, religion, race or any other implied category of thought in order to attack a ‘bigger truth’, then you might want to try another website.

    The websight attracts people of a certain POV who tends to be “law and order” conservatives. Am I mistaken?

    Gotta go…

    Play later.

    celticdragon (d789b5)

  14. “Balko’s political realm”

    I used to be a huge fan of Balko. If you were able to read all my comments, you’d see I criticized Patterico for his tone dealing with Balko. I heaped all kinds of praise on him. That was before I looked at Balko in depth. Balko is aggressively dishonest. He’s able to stir up sentiments that dwell in patriotic freedom loving people, and I was caught up in that.

    But Balko sure as hell is not the standard bearer for Paine. Patterico and Dunphy are 10000X more appropriate.

    Balko is a complete liar, and it’s no surprise that a troll came here to distract discussion of what Paine was really getting at by whining about poor Balko.

    Juan (bd4b30)

  15. Gotta go…
    Play later.
    Comment by celticdragon — 8/7/2009 @ 3:53 pm

    More troll droppings!

    AD - RtR/OS! (7ba5f7)

  16. It’s easy for a defense attorney to talk about government responsibility, limitations on power, the inherent rights of people.

    It’s more valuable when people stand up and serve the public while watching these crucial values. Balko uses libertarianism as a bludgeon for his clients… he lies and cheats and cheapens the effort, not for merely being a libertarian defense attorney, but in his ignoring certain facts, dismissing criticisms, and being a freaking jerk.

    Patterico and Dunphy carry the weight of human rights on their shoulders as they wield the power of government. That’s so much more critical. The honor is in how they do it, and I can’t speak to that (other than to note Balko’s not doing it very honorably). But I know the effort is much more challenging for prosecutors and cops to value our rights. America’s great because, by and large, so many cops and DAs and governors and presidents (present one excluded sadly) really wear that struggle with pride.

    A DA who fudges on exculpatory evidence or a cop who searches when he shouldn’t gets treated a whole lot differently than a defense attorney who makes a closing argument that is contrary to the defense attorney’s awareness of the truth. Why? We’re used to something and expect something from each groups.

    Juan (bd4b30)

  17. Why? We’re used to something and expect something from each groups.

    I blame tv.

    happyfeet (42470c)

  18. cd – Where is your citation that Obama is a fan of the above?

    I have none, as I said Obama’s friends. Do you really need me to look up Chavez quotes of Castro? How ’bout Castro quoting Castro? As for excess demonizing, take a step back, fly to Honduras, then get back to me. Obama is supporting dictators over democracy in Honduras, and his administration is at least looking the other way as Chavez interferes in Honduras’ internal affairs. The truth may seem demonizing, but, unfortunately, it isn’t.

    Never heard of brownshirts?
    Sure, but when you shoot them, you’re not expressly taking on the power of the state. That’s a big difference. You know, come to think of it, our 2nd amendment may be the exact reason I’ve only heard of, and not seen, brownshirts.

    The websight attracts people of a certain POV who tends to be “law and order” conservatives. Am I mistaken?

    Someone much smarter than I said: Don’t attribute to me your conventional views of what a “conservative” believes, because I’m not a conservative, I’m a believer in freedom.

    Apogee (e2dc9b)

  19. celticdragon:

    Dunphy is a fan of Paine, hence the post, and that is to be applauded, not derided. cd, would you rather that he quote Karl Marx or Castro, like Obama’s friends?

    Uh, no. I would not be happy with anyone who was a fan of Marx, Stalin, Castro, Idi Amin or any of their ilk. Where is your citation that Obama is a fan of the above?

    Obama has surrounded himself with Marxists as an adult and, even in college (as he acknowledged in Dreams of My Father), he chose to befriend Marxists and socialists:

    “To avoid being mistaken for a sellout, I chose my friends carefully. The more politically active black students. The foreign students. The Chicanos. The Marxist Professors and structural feminists and punk-rock performance poets.”

    In addition, internet archives indicate Obama was an adherent and quite possibly a member of the socialist New Party as recently as 1996, and this doesn’t even address Obama’s socialist statements and policies.

    DRJ (8d138b)

  20. Juan said on 8/7/2009 @ 4:18 pm:

    It’s more valuable when people stand up and serve the public while watching these crucial values. Balko uses libertarianism as a bludgeon for his clients… he lies and cheats and cheapens the effort, not for merely being a libertarian defense attorney, but in his ignoring certain facts, dismissing criticisms, and being a freaking jerk.

    Radley Balko is an attorney?

    Occasional Reader (e6d13e)

  21. Radley Balko is an attorney?

    Technically.

    Whether or not he’s a good attorney is another matter.

    Scott Jacobs (d027b8)

  22. To use a contemporary example, check out Robert Mugabe(and I am not in any way comparing this administration or the previous to Mugabe!)

    You should be making that comparison. The Obama Administration has cause to be printed – without anything to back up the paper – over a trillion dollars in new money. This new cash can only devalue the currency, causing inflation.

    Mugabe has caused the same thing, to the point where his presses can make new money fast enough to keep up with the rate of inflation (which is a few hundred percent a day).

    Scott Jacobs (d027b8)

  23. Celticdragon has been put in moderation.

    DRJ (8d138b)

  24. Celticdragon has been put in moderation.

    I honestly engaged with a particular set of thoughtful questions from apogee, and tried to give reasonable, nuanced and respectful answers that accurately reflect my reasoning. If that so offends you, then I am happy to let you go back to being an echo chamber.

    Bye.

    [celticdragon,

    You were put in moderation because of your initial comment on this Jack Dunphy thread. Feel free to leave or to post appropriate comments but insults will remain in moderation.

    — DRJ]

    celticdragon (d789b5)

  25. You should be making that comparison. The Obama Administration has cause to be printed – without anything to back up the paper – over a trillion dollars in new money. This new cash can only devalue the currency, causing inflation.

    Mugabe directly caused the mass murder of scores of white ex patriate farmers and their respective families, as well as thousands of native black political opponents and Ndebele tribal members. The average life expectancy in Zimbebwe is now less then 35 years.

    That’s right. Less then 35 years. That is worse then North Korea…and that takes some real determination, I would bet.

    Trying to compare Obama (or Bush, for that matter) to Hitler, Stalin, Mugabe eta is simply playing the “Godwin Award” game for the race to the bottom of the barrel.

    Bush was not Hitler. I voted for the guy, although I regret it.

    Obama is not Hitler, or Pol Pot or whatever new crackpot insult Limbaugh cooks up for him…and I am not buying the “Radical Professor” deal from twenty years ago says anything deterministic about him today. Twenty something years ago, Bush was a drunk and a chronic business failure. That doesn’t really reflect his reality now.

    You might be on firmer ground saying Obama is a pragmatic, left of center and somewhat ruthless Chicago pol who plays hard behind the scenes. That is what I get from him so far.

    celticdragon (d789b5)

  26. Mugabe directly caused the mass murder of scores of white ex patriate farmers and their respective families

    Because he wished to take the land from the productive, and give it to the unproductive.

    While the methods the Dems use might be different, the outcome and end effects are the same.

    Scott Jacobs (d027b8)

  27. The Obama Administration has cause to be printed . . .over a trillion dollars in new money. This new cash can only devalue the currency, causing inflation.

    Not necessarily. Imploding residential and commercial real estate prices are destroying money faster than they can print it.

    Official Internet Data Office (b61283)

  28. WOW, I was certain Balko was a defense attorney. he is not. I think I mentally just assumed it from his content, and gave him more leeway to be tilted.

    But that’s my mistake entirely. I stand corrected!

    Juan (bd4b30)

  29. celtic – For someone you view merely as a ruthless Chicago Pol who plays hard behind the scenes, Obama certainly has some funny ideas about foreign policy.

    Take Iran and Honduras, for example. In each case, Obama has chosen to disfavor support for democracy, and instead lean in the direction of authoritarians. He said almost nothing in support of the Iranians protesting the electoral ballot count, but weighed in heavily in favor of a pro-Chavez puppet in Honduras that was in violation of the Honduran constitution.

    You are correct that it is improper to compare Obama to a Mugabe, Hitler, Stalin, etc.

    But your characterization of Obama as merely a Chicago political machine hack is also off the mark, and doesn’t explain his actions in dealing with foreign nations.

    A far better explanation for those actions can be found in the belief system of those with which he has chosen to surround himself, as outlined by DRJ at 4:24pm.

    You are mistaken in your observation. In this case, Obama’s actions do reveal his character. A character lacking in appreciation of democratic principles. Obama may be a ruthless Chicago Pol, but he has embraced authoritarian and dictatorial belief systems as well.

    Apogee (e2dc9b)

  30. It would be unfair to compare Obama to Hitler and say he’s ‘just as bad’, but it’s never unfair to make the mere comparison.

    Obama hasn’t learned the lessons of popularity cult + social freebies + rampant demonization of one group as to blame for all problem and needing ‘get in their face’ style thugging from his supporters.

    1933 should have scared the free world away from this horrible attempt at a tiny smidgen of more power for the democrats. He can be compared to Hitler. he’s, of course, not a mass murderer nor nearly the bigot hitler was, but he’s doing wrong in many ways and we should recognize why it’s wrong.

    Juan (bd4b30)


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