Patterico's Pontifications

10/16/2008

L.A. Times: Joe the Plumber Has Liens!!!!1!!

Filed under: 2008 Election,Dog Trainer — Patterico @ 9:13 pm

The Los Angeles Times reports:

According to court records, creditors have secured at least two liens against [Joe the Plumber] Wurzelbacher, whose legal name is Samuel. Ohio has a $1,182 lien for owed taxes and St. Charles Mercy Hospital has filed a 2007 lien for $1,261.

I think we can all agree that this is critical information.

Not because it says anything about Joe the Plumber, mind you. But it does serve a useful function: it warns any future citizen who might dare question Barack Obama that his life will be closely scrutinized for any irrelevant but embarrassing information.

So, you know. Critical in that sense.

Oh — I almost forgot to mention: Martin Nesbitt, the treasurer of Obama’s campaign, has tax liens. So do his companies.

You’d think that matters more than the tax liens of Joe the Plumber, wouldn’t you? But good luck finding a Big Media story about Nesbitt’s liens.

376 Comments

  1. Boy, the MSM can really dig when they need to. I’m rather horrified by this. And they wonder why the public doesn’t want to talk to reporters. I can’t wait for Daily Kos to publish where his kids go to school.

    Comment by KateCoe (3dabb5) — 10/16/2008 @ 9:20 pm

  2. But is he Trig Palin’s father? I demand DNA tests!

    Comment by daleyrocks (d9ec17) — 10/16/2008 @ 9:21 pm

  3. I didn’t see the Wurzelbacher lien bit at the link, instead its a fluff piece on Obama playing b-ball.

    Comment by Dana (658c17) — 10/16/2008 @ 9:23 pm

  4. Obama’s Thugs.

    I cannot imagine how anyone could possibly be willing to vote for Obama and put up with 4 or 8 years of Obama’s thug brigade nor with having every single criticism of Obama’s administration be dismissed as racism.

    Unbelievable.

    Comment by SPQR (26be8b) — 10/16/2008 @ 9:23 pm

  5. Dana:

    Thanks. I just fixed the link. I had duplicated the second link, which shows Nesbitt is Obama’s treasurer. I also tweaked the last line of the post to make my point more explicit.

    Comment by Patterico (cc3b34) — 10/16/2008 @ 9:26 pm

  6. “Not because it says anything about Joe the Plumber, mind you. But it does serve a useful function: it warns any future citizen who might dare question Barack Obama that his life will be closely scrutinized for any irrelevant but embarrassing information.”

    I don’t think this is limited to Obama. Nor is it just his being on drudge that’s brought attention to him.

    Comment by imdw (79e95a) — 10/16/2008 @ 9:27 pm

  7. It doesn’t include Obama’s treasurer, apparently.

    Comment by Patterico (cc3b34) — 10/16/2008 @ 9:29 pm

  8. The message is pretty clear. In Obama’s Paradise, dissent will not be tolerated.

    Comment by SPQR (26be8b) — 10/16/2008 @ 9:30 pm

  9. Wow! A $1,182 lien. That’s big bucks.
    BTW, whose Swiss banks accounts were fatten by when Obama was in charge of the CAC’s $150 million?
    Where did the money go?

    Comment by Perfect Sense (9d1b08) — 10/16/2008 @ 9:33 pm

  10. I note that Michelle Malkin was viciously attacked for disclosing some information about a fellow who made a TV ad for Kerry in 2004. The plumber, of course, was just asking a question at an Obama public event. No bias there, of course.

    Comment by Mike K (2cf494) — 10/16/2008 @ 9:36 pm

  11. “It doesn’t include Obama’s treasurer, apparently.”

    Yeah he didn’t come up on drudge or the debates or the cable media all day today and after the debates. What a surprise nobody cares. Specially when there is ‘joe the plumber’ for us all to get excited by.

    “The message is pretty clear. In Obama’s Paradise, dissent will not be tolerated.”

    I’m hoping that Joe the Plumber teaches us a lesson in tolerance.

    Comment by imdw (de7003) — 10/16/2008 @ 9:36 pm

  12. Obama promises lower-income Americans they will get more money in an Obama Administration. In addition, he’s led others — like Hollywood types and Democratic insiders — to believe they will get privileged treatment. I have no idea who a President Obama will help and who he will throw under the bus, but it’s sad because all of them believe his elitist message: That some people are and should be more important than others.

    Comment by DRJ (c953ab) — 10/16/2008 @ 9:37 pm

  13. In imdw’s world, it actually makes sense that we should rip apart the personal financial life of someone who happens to question Obama on a rope line, but NOT raise the same questions about Obama’s treasurer.

    Is imdw a journalist? He certainly has the same sensibilities.

    Comment by Patterico (cc3b34) — 10/16/2008 @ 9:43 pm

  14. I am confused.What is the reference at the bottom of the second link regarding Shepard Smith and an assault charge all about?

    Comment by campfreddy (f48a60) — 10/16/2008 @ 9:43 pm

  15. DRJ, Patterico, the Blogger formally known as Karl.

    Internal polls (these are Democrat) show a trend that some battle ground states are moving strongly in the other direction (Ohio and Florida are swinging back to McCain now thats a huge blow)

    Obama is in Red states because – well – needs red states to win.

    Comment by EricPWJohnson (47b9ab) — 10/16/2008 @ 9:45 pm

  16. The Wall Street Journal story is similar. In the debates, McCain offered Joe as a living, breathing example of someone who would see his taxes increase under Obama. In light of the facts reported today, that seems implausible. Could the Senator’s campaign staff have checked Joe out a little more thoroughly prior to the debate? Another case of the staff dropping the ball?

    Comment by Tim McGarry (9fe080) — 10/16/2008 @ 9:45 pm

  17. Tim:

    Here’s a quote from the WSJ story you linked:

    Joe could theoretically suffer a tax increase under Sen. Obama’s tax plan if he succeeds in buying that plumbing company.

    Comment by Patterico (cc3b34) — 10/16/2008 @ 9:51 pm

  18. Which doesn’t really address the point of the post, in any event.

    Comment by Patterico (cc3b34) — 10/16/2008 @ 9:52 pm

  19. Joe the Plumber has liens… and Larry the Blade Writer has SWAT teams panicking.

    Larry, I understand that compulsory union membership is a big thing to you. I saw that in the “Joe the Plumber isn’t licensed by the union” article you ran which received national attention (or wait, I didn’t see that. Did you disclose your conflict of interest?). According to this source, you’re a union hack who scared the crap out of your community to the degree that SWAT teams had to respond:

    http://historymike.blogspot.com/2006/04/toledo-blade-focus-of-beech-street.html

    Unlike many others here, I grew up in Ohio, Larry. I remember my father, a high school band director, driving to school in early August to teach band camp to his state champion kids, being attacked and threatened by people like you with physical harm, threats to his children (me), and threats to his house (“I sure hope your house doesn’t burn… you do know the fire department is union too, don’t ya?”).

    While people like Larry intimidate, threaten, and in general cause the value of an American product to be diminished due to inefficiencies from union interference, people like Joe the Plumber make America competitive and great. So help me understand who really matters more in our economy? If you want jobs, economic advancement, progress, how do people like Larry matter? Or are they economic dead weight like their great leader Obama that add no value, only costs?

    Comment by redherkey (9f5961) — 10/16/2008 @ 9:54 pm

  20. “In imdw’s world, it actually makes sense that we should rip apart the personal financial life of someone who happens to question Obama on a rope line, but NOT raise the same questions about Obama’s treasurer.”

    Who you calling ‘we’ kemosabe? I’ve done no linking. And no searching. All that I know about Joe the Plumber has been delivered to me by the regular media sources I go to. I first heard about him from McCain on the deabtes, and on politico found out that his campaign met him on drudge. Of course after that the guy is gonna be talk of the town. Of course the media are going to wanna know his finances: Of course everyone is all gonna wanna break news about joe sixpack and his taxes! What could be better than when a campaign delivers the media an actual joe headline?

    I saw one station that went out and couldn’t find Joe and interviewed “al the plumber.” You would have to not be awake for the last several years to not be able to write today’s script within minutes of that debate.

    Comment by imdw (6c59b4) — 10/16/2008 @ 9:56 pm

  21. St. Charles Mercy Hospital has filed a 2007 lien for $1,261.

    Too bad Joe didn’t approach Obama to talk about this. Then he would have been a hero.

    Comment by MayBee (c0df75) — 10/16/2008 @ 9:58 pm

  22. Also from the WSJ:

    “Sen. McCain and his running mate, Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin, invoked his name from Maine to Pennsylvania Thursday, as some in the crowds shouted, “Joe, Joe, Joe.” The McCain campaign launched a new Web ad featuring Mr. Wurzelbacher.”

    This campaign just blows in the wind.

    Comment by imdw (6c59b4) — 10/16/2008 @ 10:01 pm

  23. Seriously, the WSJ delivers:

    “Reporters also discovered that Mr. Wurzelbacher’s name is apparently misspelled on the Lucas County Board of Elections database, potentially disqualifying his vote. The Ohio Democratic Party is using that last fact to challenge a Republican lawsuit that seeks to disqualify some new registered voters over such record-keeping discrepancies.”

    Too much.

    Comment by imdw (6c59b4) — 10/16/2008 @ 10:03 pm

  24. The WSJ account also includes this:

    “The average income of plumbers, pipefitters and steamfitters in 2006 was $48,002, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics. With income and profits, Mr. Wurzelbacher would be nowhere close to the threshold of $200,000 for individuals and $250,000 for couples for Sen. Obama’s proposed tax increase. To reach that level, Mr. Smither said, a mom-and-pop plumbing company like Newell would have to clear $5 million in annual sales.”

    Is the existence of a tax lien relevant? It could be construed as suggesting an attitude toward taxes rooted in something other than the specifics of Obama’s proposals.

    The existence of the lien was reported widely (including in the Murdoch-owned WSJ), not just in the L.A. times.

    Comment by Tim McGarry (9fe080) — 10/16/2008 @ 10:07 pm

  25. Interestingly, the Toledo Blade lead reporter (Larry Vellequette) who has been managing this story has not disclosed his conflict of interest per his union role in serious disputes with the Blade. A casual search on Larry shows that he’s been a serious union instigator, fighting like a wounded wombat to attack any who threaten the role of the union in the journalistic practice. Imagine our surprise that Larry has attacked Joe the Plumber for not being union certified and registered, let alone suffering liens which is a common practice in the contractor/subcontractor world.

    Having looked at Larry’s open source information, there’s a lot there that merits further examination. Since Larry feels it’s appropriate to expose all those who dare question The Leader Obama, I’d encourage those here to help Larry realize just how much fun this exposure is. Larry has a whole lot he might not want “sterilized by sunlight” and apparently didn’t evaluate the whole package when he decided to lead his publication in the attack on Joe the Plumber.

    Comment by redherkey (9f5961) — 10/16/2008 @ 10:13 pm

  26. Any possibility that this sort of thing has a relationship to Obama’s lead in the polls? An average guy trying to make a living is getting savaged in the press for asking an honest question. Clearly the lesson is that you had better not voice anything other than the approved opinions. But this isn’t a new message; the media alsways said not voting for Obama is racist. Disagreeing with Obama has always been deemed racist by the media. Telling the truth about Obama is a racist smear. Don’t you think a lot of people have already gotten the message and are just voicing the approved opinion when asked?

    Comment by Steve (5658f4) — 10/16/2008 @ 10:13 pm

  27. Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand it said:

    But if Mr. Wurzelbacher reaped taxable income from his business of $280,000 a year, he’d pay about $900 more a year in taxes under Sen. Obama’s plan, which would raise the tax rate on the income between $250,000 and $280,000 to 36% from 33%.

    Now that our enjoyable war of dueling quotes is at an end, let me address your complaint that this was widely reported: yes, it was. But my mission is to pick on the L.A. Times.

    And the liens of Obama’s treasurer were NOT widely reported — in the LAT, in Murdoch’s WSJ, or anywhere else I could find.

    Comment by Patterico (cc3b34) — 10/16/2008 @ 10:13 pm

  28. Oh for petesake, the reporting of Mr. Wuzelbacher’s liens is two accomplish two things: cast doubt upon his character and therefore anything he may say to discredit Obama’s tax credit plan would be questionable; and, to remind citizens that if one attempts to disagree or question Obama, or worse yet, possibly influence others away from him, they will be dealt with.

    Everyone has skeletons and business that we wish to keep private. And frankly, have a right to that privacy. There was absolutely no need to make public the liens. The reporters who willfully participated in a bit of sensationalism could have easily opted to not but went for the OMG factor (that will play with a few, no doubt). I hope that Mr. Wuzelbacher is made of steel and that he and his family won’t be too damaged.

    Comment by Dana (658c17) — 10/16/2008 @ 10:17 pm

  29. Should we just get it over with and paste the whole article, copyright be damned? :-)

    Comment by Tim McGarry (9fe080) — 10/16/2008 @ 10:17 pm

  30. two = to. argh.

    Comment by Dana (658c17) — 10/16/2008 @ 10:18 pm

  31. Is the existence of a tax lien relevant? It could be construed as suggesting an attitude toward taxes rooted in something other than the specifics of Obama’s proposals.

    I would say he has made it clear that he has an attitude toward taxes that is rooted something other than just Obama’s proposals.
    He mentioned the flat tax. He mentioned that he doesn’t like the idea of punishing the rich. He seems very much not to like the idea of high taxes for hard workers to benefit those who don’t work as hard.
    Shocking, I’m sure. But the man seems to actually not want taxes that are too high for some group other than his own tax bracket.

    Isn’t this the very group Democrats are having a hard time winning? Shouldn’t they maybe be listening to him, rather than hounding him?

    Comment by MayBee (c0df75) — 10/16/2008 @ 10:18 pm

  32. “Could the Senator’s campaign staff have checked Joe out a little more thoroughly prior to the debate? Another case of the staff dropping the ball?”

    Tim – Why do you have trouble saying what you mean? I think you win the award here for the smarmiest and most disingenuous commenter.

    If you are asking whether both Senators should have taken a voter at his word at what he said prior to referring to his words on TV – why not? Was there any reason to doubt them? Instead, the Obama campaign sent it’s goon squads and media surrogates to rip apart his life after the fact because they were pissed off by what he said. It’s a scary lesson for people to learn again about Obama – Never question him. He will use any measures to stifle dissent and criticism.
    He has his thugs try to shut down radio shows, filed suit with the FEC over advertisements, threatened broadcast licenses, relentlessly played the race card, and many other tricks just to stifle criticism and opposition. I’m sure, however, you were just asking a purely innocent question.

    Comment by daleyrocks (d9ec17) — 10/16/2008 @ 10:18 pm

  33. Some supporting references to how the Toledo Blade’s reporters on the “Joe the Plumber” story are nothing more than union hacks:

    Larry and his union thugs scaring the crap out of Toledo people so much that SWAT personnel had to be brought in:
    http://historymike.blogspot.com/2006/04/toledo-blade-focus-of-beech-street.html

    Larry gets suspended from his job for penis jokes in his parody newspaper “The Bleed”, but is rescued from a certain firing by union attorneys: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb3138/is_/ai_n28770750

    Larry and his Columbia Journalism friends talk about his efforts to attack a failing newspaper:
    http://www.cjr.org/on_the_job/dark_days.php

    Larry being interviewed by another reporter (a clever MSM trick) on how brilliant of a car buyer he is. Larry thinks he knows how to social engineer and manipulate the financial system.
    http://www.bankrate.com/brm/news/special/19991001a.asp

    Larry discovers what nobody else in America has: A 1987 Mustang that gets 80 MPG!!! Talk about grand conspiracies. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2040677/posts

    What a surprise that Larry finds non-union people like Joe the Plumber to be such a threat. Since Larry thinks it is so much fun to investigate Joe, let’s help ol’ Larry out and dig into his personal background too. From what I’ve posted above, I’m sure ol’ Larry is just rife with remarkable stories. What a character we have to expose. Let’s not let reporters like Larry feel like they can hit the Joe the Plumbers without a certainty of a counter-response.

    Comment by redherkey (9f5961) — 10/16/2008 @ 10:25 pm

  34. OK, daleyrocks, what I meant to say is this:

    Could the Senator’s campaign staff have checked Joe out a little more thoroughly prior to the debate? Another case of the staff dropping the ball?

    Comment by Tim McGarry (9fe080) — 10/16/2008 @ 10:29 pm

  35. Hey daleyrocks…

    When you wrote:

    “..I think you win the award here for the smarmiest and most disingenuous commenter…”

    To Tim, I was crestfallen.

    I thought I earned that award, fair and square.

    Racist. I can see the code words there.

    Comment by Eric Blair (e60b98) — 10/16/2008 @ 10:30 pm

  36. And if McCain’s campaign made a mistake not vetting a plumber, how about Obama’s campaign not vetting their freaking treasurer?

    I know, I know. That is not the treasurer Obama knew.

    As I wrote in another thread, it is the Janus-like ability of the Leftist MSM to condemn McCain for doing things that Obama does himself that grates so.

    Comment by Eric Blair (e60b98) — 10/16/2008 @ 10:33 pm

  37. “Oh for petesake, the reporting of Mr. Wuzelbacher’s liens is two accomplish two things: cast doubt upon his character and therefore anything he may say to discredit Obama’s tax credit plan would be questionable; and, to remind citizens that if one attempts to disagree or question Obama, or worse yet, possibly influence others away from him, they will be dealt with.”

    The fact that he can’t afford his taxes now is relevant to Obama’s plan to cut his taxes now.

    Comment by imdw (de9ac8) — 10/16/2008 @ 10:36 pm

  38. That was an interesting sentence.

    Comment by Eric Blair (e60b98) — 10/16/2008 @ 10:36 pm

  39. Some supporting references to how the Toledo Blade’s reporters on the “Joe the Plumber” story are nothing more than union hacks: Larry and his union thugs scaring the crap out of Toledo people so much that SWAT personnel had to be brought in: http://historymike.blogspot.com/2006/04/toledo-blade-focus-of-beech-street.html

    Larry gets suspended from his job for “male organ” jokes in his parody newspaper “The Bleed”, but is rescued from a certain firing by union attorneys: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb3138/is_/ai_n28770750

    Larry and his Columbia Journalism friends talk about his efforts to attack a failing newspaper:
    http://www.cjr.org/on_the_job/dark_days.php

    Larry being interviewed by another reporter (a clever MSM trick) on how brilliant of a car buyer he is. Larry thinks he knows how to social engineer and manipulate the financial system.
    http://www.bankrate.com/brm/news/special/19991001a.asp

    Larry discovers what nobody else in America has: A 1987 Mustang that gets 80 MPG!!! Talk about grand conspiracies. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2040677/posts

    What a surprise that Larry finds non-union people like Joe the Plumber to be such a threat. Since Larry thinks it is so much fun to investigate Joe, let’s help Larry out and dig into his personal background too. From what I’ve posted above, I’m sure Larry is just rife with remarkable stories. What a character we have to expose. Let’s not let reporters like Larry feel like they can hit the Joe the Plumbers without a certainty of a counter-response.
    (union thugs cause SWAT response)

    Comment by redherkey (9f5961) — 10/16/2008 @ 10:37 pm

  40. Some supporting references to how the Toledo Blade’s reporters on the “Joe the Plumber” story are nothing more than union hacks: Larry and his union thugs scaring the crap out of Toledo people so much that SWAT personnel had to be brought in: http://historymike.blogspot.com/2006/04/toledo-blade-focus-of-beech-street.html

    Larry gets suspended from his job for “male organ” jokes in his parody newspaper “The Bleed”, but is rescued from a certain firing by union attorneys: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb3138/is_/ai_n28770750

    Larry and his Columbia Journalism friends talk about his efforts to attack a failing newspaper:
    http://www.cjr.org/on_the_job/dark_days.php

    Larry being interviewed by another reporter (a clever MSM trick) on how brilliant of a car buyer he is. Larry thinks he knows how to social engineer and manipulate the financial system.
    http://www.bankrate.com/brm/news/special/19991001a.asp

    Larry discovers what nobody else in America has: A 1987 Mustang that gets 80 MPG!!! Talk about grand conspiracies. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2040677/posts

    What a surprise that Larry finds non-union people like Joe the Plumber to be such a threat. Since Larry thinks it is so much fun to investigate Joe, let’s help Larry out and dig into his personal background too. From what I’ve posted above, I’m sure Larry is just rife with remarkable stories. What a character we have to expose. Let’s not let reporters like Larry feel like they can hit the Joe the Plumbers without a certainty of a response.

    Comment by redherkey (9f5961) — 10/16/2008 @ 10:38 pm

  41. Tim – Which Senator? Could Obama’s thugs have destroyed his life between Barack’s walking around the neighborhood tour and the debate the same way the have today? The answer is yes. They dropped the ball.

    McCain obviously felt no need to question Joe’s word because he trusts people.

    The “facts” you describe as being discovered today do not alter Joe’s questions to Obama or Obama’s answers and hopefully you can see that. The fact that the left chose to destroy someone’s privacy and life merely in an attempt to make a political statement merely shows America yet another example of their ugly side.

    Comment by daleyrocks (d9ec17) — 10/16/2008 @ 10:39 pm

  42. What in the world does any of this have to do with the real story????? The real issue is that Obama revealed that he plans to “spread (other people’s)wealth”!!!! It doesn’t matter if Joe is an ax murder, the point is Obama wants to penalize hard work.

    Comment by Bfidler (e8f3cb) — 10/16/2008 @ 10:50 pm

  43. Tim – Yours is just a stupid question. It’s obvious that neither Senator saw any reason to question Joe’s veracity prior to the debate. Obama didn’t tell him he was lying to his face or say I don’t believe you when Joe said he was going to make $250,000. It would have been insulting to ordinary Americans. The idea that McCain should have done it is a fantasy of your pea brain. Once the Obama campaign saw that the Joe phenomenon was drawing real blood, however, he had to be destroyed and that’s the phenomenon you saw today.

    Comment by daleyrocks (d9ec17) — 10/16/2008 @ 10:51 pm

  44. “What in the world does any of this have to do with the real story????? The real issue is that Obama revealed that he plans to “spread (other people’s)wealth”!!!! It doesn’t matter if Joe is an ax murder, the point is Obama wants to penalize hard work.”

    Welcome to progressive taxation. You find this to be news, eh?

    Comment by imdw (e66d8d) — 10/16/2008 @ 10:53 pm

  45. Screw Joe the Plumber and the toilet bowl he rode in on.

    Who cares either way. Guy is ignorant, close-minded a weasel and an apparent liar. Yet, it doesn’t at all merit an examination of the fact that he lied about his name. No, of course not, it’s all about the media, the media, the LA TImes etc and Obama’s thugs. Right.

    More desperation and delusional strawmen. Yawn.

    Next.

    Comment by Peter (e70d1c) — 10/16/2008 @ 10:57 pm

  46. What I see most clearly, d.r., is that Joe isn’t very likely to be in the bracket that will see increased taxes if Obama’s plans are implemented. This makes him a less compelling example for McCain.

    Comment by Tim McGarry (9fe080) — 10/16/2008 @ 10:58 pm

  47. Oops! Another big McCain blunder in the offing. Just like Palin, in a desperate drive to change the dynamics of the race and seize back control, they pounce on an unvetted personality and push him into limelight. Only to end up embarrassed at the facts that begin to emerge. More and more, I am beginning to think “Joe the Plumber” may have been a McCain plant. But even if his not, he leaves a lot of reasons to doubt. First of all, he does not own the business. He cannot afford the business. Again, how many times have you seen a plumber making about $250,000.00? It’s not the average Joe story the McCain campaign want us to believe. It stinks.

    Comment by love2008 (1b037c) — 10/16/2008 @ 10:58 pm

  48. 4 or 8 years of Obama’s thug brigade

    SPQR, to you a thug is anyone who disagrees with your narrow, whacked political opinions.

    Comment by Peter (e70d1c) — 10/16/2008 @ 11:00 pm

  49. Comment by Peter — 10/16/2008 @ 11:00 pm
    What do you think, Peter? Do you think the guy is authentic?

    Comment by love2008 (1b037c) — 10/16/2008 @ 11:11 pm

  50. According to court records, creditors have secured at least two liens against [Joe the Plumber] Wurzelbacher, whose legal name is Samuel. Ohio has a $1,182 lien for owed taxes and St. Charles Mercy Hospital has filed a 2007 lien for $1,261.

    Honorable Tax evader Charles Rangel?

    Al Franken running for state senate?

    But it’s imperative Joe the Plumber get the media full “work up”

    He’s hasn’t earned his Democrat Protection bona fides from the intelligent, reasoned press.

    Joe should change his registration to Democrat and run for office — THEN and only then will the media will leave Joe alone

    Also, if in office Joe accepts bribery and stores the money in his freezer, gets cushy mortgage loans or pays off his mistress with campaign funds he’s TOTALLY covered if he just changes that R to a D

    Comment by Topsecretk9 (c4576e) — 10/16/2008 @ 11:18 pm

  51. And the liens of Obama’s treasurer were NOT widely reported — in the LAT, in Murdoch’s WSJ, or anywhere else I could find.

    Why would it be. I didn’t hear Obama’s treasurer’s name mentioned 21 times by McCain. As a matter of fact I didn’t hear his name mentioned even ONE time and why should it be or Joe the Plumber’s for that reason? The guys facts are wrong and he’s a liar. He was all up in arms about Obama’s tax plan and pulls the idea of 280K out of nowhere to mess with him. Later on in the evening when he’s interviewed by Katie Couric he starts talking about 100K! And that Obama can’t be trusted and he’s going to raise taxes for people making 100K because “his policies are on a slippery slope”.

    This, my friends, is a grade A Ass clown. And yes he deserves the scrutiny. He’s got a big stupid mouth and he’s a liar. He saw an opportunity to bully Obama and he took it.

    Guy needs to grab a wrench and go f*ck a bathroom sink.

    Comment by Peter (e70d1c) — 10/16/2008 @ 11:18 pm

  52. lovey is as delusional as the faux-blue-collar Biden.

    O! and Biden, two hot-house lawyers who have never had a job or run even a lemonade stand, but who look at Joe, who has aspirations of running his own business, and say “be successful at your own risk, sucker.”

    Good lord, Obama tried to conflate Joe with Warren Buffett.

    But Liberal Fascists are hot on the trail to make Joe an example.

    If someone sets up a fund to help Joe out against the Obama brownshirts in Toledo, let me know. I’ll contribute.

    Comment by Darleen (187edc) — 10/16/2008 @ 11:20 pm

  53. Hey Peter

    It’s called the First Amendment.

    But for Obama and the rest of the radical Alinsky Left, NOTHING is more important than your ideology and that includes the rights of people who disagree with you.

    Seig Heil!

    Comment by Darleen (187edc) — 10/16/2008 @ 11:21 pm

  54. You people slay me. Michelle Malkin published information about where Graeme Frost and his siblings went to school. She interrogated his neighbors and published gossipy emails from people claiming to know the family. She published a description of this little boy’s house and his family’s vehicles. As a result of her vitriol, this family of A SPECIAL NEEDS CHILD (hello, Sarah Palin?) received death threats. Death threats! All because they dared to stand up for the cause of healthcare for children.

    But somehow this Joe the Plumber guy is a martyr because he’s been exposed as a fraud, a liar and a tax cheat. How you people look yourselves in the mirror every morning is beyond me.

    Comment by Clearwater (4674fb) — 10/16/2008 @ 11:22 pm

  55. Checked the link, there’s no mention of liens in that story. HOWEVER, I did a search (using the search box on that page) with the terms LIENS PLUMBER and got two recent hits . One was to some blog, the other was looked like it was the story Patterico was talking about. I went to that link and it was the first story (the one with no liens in it that Patterico linked).

    Did the LA Times throw another story down the memory hole? Looks like it.

    Comment by Arthur (0fbdb5) — 10/16/2008 @ 11:23 pm

  56. Oh looky… more Obama brownshirts show up!

    Comment by Darleen (187edc) — 10/16/2008 @ 11:23 pm

  57. #48

    This story?

    Comment by Tim McGarry (9fe080) — 10/16/2008 @ 11:29 pm

  58. But somehow this Joe the Plumber guy is a martyr because he’s been exposed as a fraud, a liar and a tax cheat.

    Let’s assume, just for the sake of placating a moron, that these things are true. How does it change Obama’s answer to his question?

    Comment by Jim Treacher (592cb4) — 10/16/2008 @ 11:34 pm

  59. Peter #40,

    Am I missing something or are you actually criticizing Joe because he goes by his middle name instead of his first name?

    Tim McGarry,

    Joe thinks he can earn enough to push him into Obama’s higher tax bracket. Maybe Joe is a very hard worker, or maybe his goal is to hire more plumbers, or maybe it’s all of the above. But the more you push the idea it’s unlikely Joe can get into that higher bracket, the more you alienate people who dream they can too.

    Comment by DRJ (c953ab) — 10/16/2008 @ 11:35 pm

  60. Clearwater – The Frost family specifically volunteered to be spokespeople for a Democratic initiative to expand the S-Chip beyond people to whom it traditionally applied. They became public figures deliberately. McCain merely referred back to a TV clip of a conversation between The Messiah and Joe. Was there any evidence of a conversation between Joe and McCain prior to the debate? I’m not aware of any. Referring to a less than stellar media moment for Obama was enough to send his campaign the Obamamedia and the nutroots into a frenzy, however.

    The spread the wealth around comment will not go away.

    Comment by daleyrocks (d9ec17) — 10/16/2008 @ 11:39 pm

  61. Hmmm. When I read, about a plumber who dared asked a question that embarrassed Obama:

    “..he’s been exposed as a fraud, a liar and a tax cheat….”

    It makes me wonder when Obama himself will be as thoroughly investigated. Starting, perhaps, with the treasurer of his campaign, and moving on to some of his other…associates. Like ACORN (how is that FBI investigation going?). Or Rezko’s deals. Then there is Obama’s voting record. His flip-flops. His gaffes and mis-statements.

    Oh, but that is different.

    Probably racist, besides.

    Comment by Eric Blair (e60b98) — 10/16/2008 @ 11:41 pm

  62. Since when did “spreading the wealth around” become such an evil idea? Don’t you want some of my wealth? Hypocrite!

    Comment by love2008 (1b037c) — 10/16/2008 @ 11:42 pm

  63. Hey, daley…

    Ever notice when people talk about spreading wealth around, it is very seldom their own wealth?

    Imagine if Obama said that he was personally leading the way by overpaying his taxes by 10%, because he believes in redistribution!

    But no. He just wants other people to do it. As usual.

    Comment by Eric Blair (e60b98) — 10/16/2008 @ 11:43 pm

  64. DRJ – That $3000 Obama tax credit will hire a lot of plumbers if they are illegal immigrants, you can pay them well below minimum wage and don’t give them any benefits, especially if you tax the business more heavily first.

    Comment by daleyrocks (d9ec17) — 10/16/2008 @ 11:43 pm

  65. Tell you what, love2008. Patterico is an honorable man. Why don’t you PayPal him a payment equal to 10% of your taxes, that he would contribute to a charity of your choice?

    Comment by Eric Blair (e60b98) — 10/16/2008 @ 11:44 pm

  66. Lovey:

    What do you think, Peter? Do you think the guy is authentic?

    No. Regardless of whether or not he was a McCain plant, his questions and concerns where not expressed in good faith, his goal wasn’t to have a serious discussion about tax policies, it was simply to F**k w/ Obama and pull his chain. You know, the usual right wing fratboy BS, that thinks messing around with serious people with serious intents is hilarious and hardship is for someone else.

    It’s grotesque. Especially considering the economic situation and the guy should roundly be shown up and embarrassed for the utter dick that he is.

    John McCain, once again has shown he thinks this election is a big game. If he really understood true Joe and Jane Six packs and Joe the plumbers or whatever, he wouldn’t pick such laughable parodies of that demographic. You know first Sarah Palin and now, Joe the frickin’ plumber. WTF?

    On Letterman tonight, the sense I got from the JM is that even he doesn’t even buy most of his campaign’s strategies. There was the ever so slight but palpable sense that he knows a lot of these stunts are pure BS. I guess, he’s hoping people read between the lines or are too stupid to see through it? That is just such a morally, ethically and intellectually bankrupt attitude. It’s like he’s sabotaging himself. Frustrating too, because he used to be such a unique and compelling moderate.

    Oh and Letterman raked him over the coals for the weakness of the Ayers non-issue and pointed out to McCain that he himself has some questionable associations and referred to McCain’s friendship with G. Gordon Liddy, to LOUD approving applause for Letterman from the studio audience.

    Comment by Peter (e70d1c) — 10/16/2008 @ 11:45 pm

  67. Eric – It is patriotic to pay more taxes. Joe Biden says so. There is nothing to stop people from paying more taxes than they owe or making a contribution to reduce the national debt. You just don’t see people on the left volunteering to do that, FOR THE CHILDREN!!!!11!1!.

    Comment by daleyrocks (d9ec17) — 10/16/2008 @ 11:46 pm

  68. “What I see most clearly, d.r., is that Joe isn’t very likely to be in the bracket that will see increased taxes if Obama’s plans are implemented. This makes him a less compelling example for McCain.”

    Tim – It’s not surprising that’s what you see. I just plug in someone named Ralph if I need to with the same set of facts Joe outlined and see the same unacceptable answers Obama gave. Nothing changed except the thuggery applied to Joe.

    Comment by daleyrocks (d9ec17) — 10/16/2008 @ 11:52 pm

  69. This is the only blog I’ve read that has posted on “Joe’s” liens.

    Is it part of the thuggery, daley?

    Comment by snuffles (677ec2) — 10/16/2008 @ 11:54 pm

  70. Jim Treacher:

    For the sake of placating a moron, allow me to confirm that these things are indeed true. Google “michelle malkin graeme frost” and see what comes up.

    And as for your query, “How does it change Obama’s answer to [Joe the Plumber's] question?”, show me where I said (or even implied) that it did.

    And, by the way, Barack Obama did not broadcast Joe the Plumber’s full name during a nationally televised presidential debate. That was John McCain who did that.

    Comment by Clearwater (4674fb) — 10/16/2008 @ 11:55 pm

  71. DRJ, as I understand it, Joe told Obama that he was contemplating buying a business that would put him in the $250K bracket. Based on what’s been reported, there’s reason to doubt buying that particular business would put him anywhere close. Certainly he may get there some day and I wouldn’t want to discourage him or anyone else. But his immediate prospects would seem to fall short of providing the example McCain needs to prove his point.

    Comment by Tim McGarry (9fe080) — 10/16/2008 @ 11:56 pm

  72. Oh and Letterman raked him over the coals for the weakness of the Ayers non-issue and pointed out to McCain that he himself has some questionable associations and referred to McCain’s friendship with G. Gordon Liddy, to LOUD approving applause for Letterman from the studio audience.
    Oh how inconvenient truth is. How cruel! And, Peter, you better denounce yourself before this horde of rabid McCainites pounce on you.

    Comment by love2008 (1b037c) — 10/16/2008 @ 11:57 pm

  73. Oh and Letterman raked him over the coals for the weakness of the Ayers non-issue and pointed out to McCain that he himself has some questionable associations and referred to McCain’s friendship with G. Gordon Liddy,

    Yea, but did McCain make Liddy his trusted advisor and “sounding board,” as Obama did with Jeremiah Wright? Did Liddy ever enthusiastically, joyfully hold fundraising get-togethers for McCain, as Ayers appeared to have done for Obama?

    Comment by Mark (7bebb8) — 10/16/2008 @ 11:57 pm

  74. peter

    his questions and concerns where not expressed in good faith

    and you know this because of your crystal ball? Tea leaves? ESP?

    Oh, I know. We are Not To Question The One. Ever.
    His Most Holy Barry is to grace us with his wisdom, dripping from his lips liked ambered honey, at his choosing, not ours. We are to stare in rapt awe and behold his troooths.

    Off to the re-education camp for Joe!

    Comment by Darleen (187edc) — 10/16/2008 @ 11:58 pm

  75. Clearwater

    finished shining your jackboots already?

    Comment by Darleen (187edc) — 10/16/2008 @ 11:59 pm

  76. “According to court records, creditors have secured at least two liens against [Joe the Plumber] Wurzelbacher, whose legal name is Samuel. Ohio has a $1,182 lien for owed taxes and St. Charles Mercy Hospital has filed a 2007 lien for $1,261.”

    Too bad he isn’t a big mortgage company that makes donations to pols like The Messiah. If he was, the Dem Congress would pass a bailout bill to pay off his debts faster than you could say “Karl Marx lives!”.

    But, since he’s just a regular guy he’ll probably end up having to pay off his debts all by his lonesome.

    Comment by Dave Surls (806aee) — 10/17/2008 @ 12:00 am

  77. ________________________________________

    Tell you what, love2008. Patterico is an honorable man. Why don’t you PayPal him a payment equal to 10% of your taxes, that he would contribute to a charity of your choice?

    Isn’t love2008 a liberal?

    You can expect quite a bit of generosity out of such a person. Yea, right.
    ________________________________________

    Comment by Mark (7bebb8) — 10/17/2008 @ 12:04 am

  78. He was all up in arms about Obama’s tax plan and pulls the idea of 280K out of nowhere to mess with him.

    Nice to see the future leader of the free world was so easily “messed” with by just some Joe off the street.

    Comment by Topsecretk9 (c4576e) — 10/17/2008 @ 12:05 am

  79. “Is it part of the thuggery, daley?”

    snuffles – No, pointing out the obvious, it just means you’ve only read one blog covering the story, moron. Go to memeorandum for a list of your comrades following it.

    Comment by daleyrocks (d9ec17) — 10/17/2008 @ 12:05 am

  80. daleyrocks,

    Some Americans will be paying higher taxes if Obama’s plan is enacted. The Senator himself has been very explicit about that.

    My sense is that Joe seemed attractive to the McCain campaign as a flesh-and-blood example of someone who would be penalized under the proposal. That no longer seems supported by the facts.

    Comment by Tim McGarry (9fe080) — 10/17/2008 @ 12:06 am

  81. And as for your query, “How does it change Obama’s answer to [Joe the Plumber's] question?”, show me where I said (or even implied) that it did.

    at least Clearwater admits Obama just totally got “messed with” and FUBARD in a major, painful way.

    Comment by Topsecretk9 (c4576e) — 10/17/2008 @ 12:08 am

  82. Darleen,

    It’s called the First Amendment.

    Damned skippy it is, and keep your hands off of it.

    And while your at it, please don’t ask to listen to my phone calls or put me in jail without acess to lawyer or a viable habeas corpus for any reason whatsoever.

    You keep on spouting that gimmicky NRO liberal fascism crapola if it makes you feel good.

    Comment by Peter (e70d1c) — 10/17/2008 @ 12:10 am

  83. As required by the Obama Law of 2008, I must inform you that this article is racist.

    Because the “Truth Squad” will say so.

    http://www.politicalwrinkles.com

    Comment by cnredd (30dc9f) — 10/17/2008 @ 12:10 am

  84. “My sense is that Joe seemed attractive to the McCain campaign as a flesh-and-blood example of someone who would be penalized under the proposal. That no longer seems supported by the facts.”

    Tim – If you accept the facts as reported today, that may not necessarily be the case. DRJ has posted here about the details of the Obama tax proposal and it’s phase out of various credits. Joe may indeed be a victim of higher taxes under Obama’s plan. His claim that 95% of working Americans will receive a tax cut is actually laughable on its face when you take time to unpack the details.

    There are plenty of other people in the situation Joe claimed to be in, as I pointed out. The name doesn’t matter. Obama’s attitude toward business, and yours based on your comments tonight, represent the death knell for the American dream for too many.

    Comment by daleyrocks (d9ec17) — 10/17/2008 @ 12:14 am

  85. Peter

    So, stop joining in with the brownshirts in slandering Joe in order to intimidate him and others into silence.

    No wonder the Left is slobbering over the anti-democratic card check…back to the days of thuggery intimidation of workers to “voluntarily join” unions.

    (and, full disclosure, I’m a card carrying union member for 10 years)

    Comment by Darleen (187edc) — 10/17/2008 @ 12:15 am

  86. It’s okay to print embarrassing facts about somebody if you’re trying(and failing) to score a few political points, daley?

    Comment by snuffles (677ec2) — 10/17/2008 @ 12:15 am

  87. Joe the Plumber and Sarah Palin have now been vetted more thoroughly than Barack Obama!!11!1!

    Comment by daleyrocks (d9ec17) — 10/17/2008 @ 12:15 am

  88. “It’s okay to print embarrassing facts about somebody if you’re trying(and failing) to score a few political points, daley?”

    snuffles – If there is something you want to ask or a point you want to make, why not just make it?

    Comment by daleyrocks (d9ec17) — 10/17/2008 @ 12:17 am

  89. It is a basic principle of life that he who has more should give to those who don’t have. There will always be the haves and the haves not. The poor and the rich. You need to think more like a giver and not worry that someone is taking away your wealth. Just like sowing and reaping, giving preceeds receiving. So spreading wealth is not an evil philosophy. Though I also believe that he that will not work, let him not eat. Giving to people who don’t want to help themselves is a failure in itself. I also think that wealth should spread to those who have what it takes to create wealth but lack the funds. Guys like, hey, Joe the plumber. So, Obama is right. Tax the rich and use their money to empower the “Joes” in our economy. Makes sense. Unless you are stingy.

    Comment by love2008 (1b037c) — 10/17/2008 @ 12:19 am

  90. daley

    It’s more than Obama/Biden’s bait-n-switch with taxes which will stifle small business and cause larger ones to flee; but that the so-called “penalty free” withdrawals from 401k and IRA’s encourages people to raid their retirement funds thus putting them at risk of being fully dependent on government as seniors.

    And Democrats loves them a pliant, dependent class. Especially when SocSec goes belly up.

    Comment by Darleen (187edc) — 10/17/2008 @ 12:19 am

  91. Keep it up liberals. You are indeed making the greatest case to build that border wall – no license tax evader.

    LOVING IT!

    Joe the Plumber is my new bicycle.

    Comment by Topsecretk9 (c4576e) — 10/17/2008 @ 12:20 am

  92. Darleen – They’re going to hsve to get a bigger plantation.

    Comment by daleyrocks (d9ec17) — 10/17/2008 @ 12:20 am

  93. It is a basic principle of life that he who has more should give to those who don’t have

    Charity is only charity when it is VOLUNTARY.

    Obama’s “spread the wealth” is the excuse a mugger makes… or is the mugger the new footsoldier of Obama’s Civilian Corps?

    Comment by Darleen (187edc) — 10/17/2008 @ 12:21 am

  94. Hey, Peter…

    You talk a really, really, really tough game. So when you write:

    “You keep on spouting that gimmicky NRO liberal fascism crapola if it makes you feel good.”

    I recommend an experiment. If you are brave enough, I mean.

    You do work, right? I dare you to put a McCain bumper sticker on your car. I dare you to wear a McCain button to work, every day. I dare you to pretend to be a Republican around the water cooler, and tell everyone how you feel that McCain has been unfairly treated, and is an honorable man who will try to do the right thing as President.

    I dare you to put a BIG McCain sign in your front yard. Several of them. In fact, I think you should put up a sign with your home telephone number and address across town, with this written on it: “We need to have a rally for McCain-Palin. Call me or drop by my house and let’s discuss it.”

    THEN you can lecture people how “liberal fascism” is a myth.

    Of course, you will claim that you could do that, and nothing would happen. But as my grandfather used to say….talk is cheap; whiskey costs money.

    Why not give it a try? Since liberal fascism is a myth. You know?

    I didn’t think so. And it wouldn’t be smart, either.

    Comment by Eric Blair (2708f4) — 10/17/2008 @ 12:22 am

  95. So spreading wealth is not an evil philosophy.

    it’s called charity moron. And um, American taxpayers are legion on that score.

    Joe Biden? Not so much.

    Comment by Topsecretk9 (c4576e) — 10/17/2008 @ 12:22 am

  96. “Giving to people who don’t want to help themselves is a failure in itself.”

    Lovey – Please try to explain that to as many of your liberal friends as possible. Maybe start a few chain e-mails.

    Comment by daleyrocks (d9ec17) — 10/17/2008 @ 12:24 am

  97. Tax the rich and use their money to empower the “Joes” in our economy. Makes sense. Unless you are stingy.

    Yes. Joe Biden is stingy.

    Comment by Topsecretk9 (c4576e) — 10/17/2008 @ 12:25 am

  98. TSK9 – It did appear that Rosary Joe Biden was even somewhat behind on tithing to his church.

    Comment by daleyrocks (d9ec17) — 10/17/2008 @ 12:26 am

  99. By pretending to be a church, how much in taxes did the racist “Reverend” Wright avoid paying?
    “Reverend” Wright’s tax scram is as disturbing as if the KKK operated tax exempt branch offices.

    Comment by Perfect Sense (9d1b08) — 10/17/2008 @ 12:29 am

  100. Daley

    I wish I could giggle at it… but I fear there might be a line we cross that we won’t be able to get back

    that line at the end of the paper Obama sets in front of us that says “You will have food, shelter and clothing no matter what. Just sign away your liberty here ________”

    Ayers and oodles of his ideology brethren went into academia/teaching with a long term purpose…to condition generations of students into accepting “equal outcomes” as an infinitely better goal than “opportunity”. For students to look at failure, not as a chance to learn and grow, but as an evil conspiracy from outside that victimizes them. For students to eschew individualism or volunteerism as inferior to collective action and group identity.

    Fascism/socialism/communism … all collectivist ideologies that are anathema to core American values.

    Remember, it isn’t really The World that hates America…it is The Left of The World that hates America.

    Comment by Darleen (187edc) — 10/17/2008 @ 12:30 am

  101. Darleen,

    I’ve noticed you have now accused me of having “jackboots” and being a “brown shirt”. Why is that? I’ve done absolutely nothing except comment on a web site.

    Have you accused Michelle Malkin of these things? Michelle Malkin spied on the family of a 12-year-old SPECIAL NEEDS CHILD (hello, Sarah Palin?) and then used her blog to practically give directions to this little boy’s house, all while accusing his family of being secretly-rich welfare frauds. Can I assume that you are okay with that? Please correct me if I’m wrong.

    Comment by Clearwater (4674fb) — 10/17/2008 @ 12:32 am

  102. Daley

    I am convinced that libtards like the idea of taxes because it helps alleviate their guilt of not being willing to give themselves.

    Comment by Topsecretk9 (c4576e) — 10/17/2008 @ 12:32 am

  103. Clearwater

    You’re lying about the Frost episode, so why should I give you any credibility on anything else?

    Comment by Darleen (187edc) — 10/17/2008 @ 12:35 am

  104. TopsecretK9

    Leftists have no guilt. They are motivated by envy and the need to be held to no moral standards. Taxes give ‘em an excuse to make people who may be happier than them suffer.

    Comment by Darleen (187edc) — 10/17/2008 @ 12:37 am

  105. Darleen – I’ve been banging on the Obamatards about the equality of outcomes vs. equality of opportunity theme, so it’s great you mention it.

    Since nishi/griefer has been dropping by we could make the case that Obama’s goal is to make America a country of Stepford Zombies with everybody equal. Then no feelings would be hurt. Nobody would feel superior or inferior, except of course the Politburo at the top, which Obama and his line would claim to rule as a hereditary dynasty.

    Oh, the fun we could have!

    Comment by daleyrocks (d9ec17) — 10/17/2008 @ 12:39 am

  106. “Taxes give ‘em an excuse to make people who may be happier than them suffer.”

    Darleen – Nobody is allowed to be happier than a liberal. Since liberals are by definition never happy, they are always the victim of something or other, nobody else may be happy either.

    Equal misery, at a minimum, for all!!!!!

    Comment by daleyrocks (d9ec17) — 10/17/2008 @ 12:43 am

  107. Clearwater

    The democrats marched out a child to give their radio address and the parents said they were poppers. Malkin did not spy on them and she also reported positive things people said about them. She also did not direct anyone to harass them, so sit and spin.

    Owning lots of property and SUVs and expensive private school tuitions while feigning desperation in need of health insurance is in no way on par of simply asking a candidate who sought his vote a question even if he were Rove’s evil twin. It’s on par of mandating then bailing out predatory subprime loans like Mcdonalds though, want to go down that road?

    You people are ugly. Now the nation knows it thanks to Obama making fun of Joe the Plumber, Mike the Mason, George the drywall guy, Manuel the gardener, Sam the Surveyor, Lenny the contrator, Susy the house cleaner and the beat goes on…

    Comment by Topsecretk9 (c4576e) — 10/17/2008 @ 12:43 am

  108. Clearwater – I already addressed your lies about the Frosts above. You have no credibility.

    Comment by daleyrocks (d9ec17) — 10/17/2008 @ 12:44 am

  109. …..yawn……

    Comment by love2008 (0c8c2c) — 10/17/2008 @ 12:46 am

  110. Darleen,

    Please explain to me why you think I am “lying about the Frost episode”. The link you provided shows nothing of the sort.

    Comment by Clearwater (4674fb) — 10/17/2008 @ 12:46 am

  111. …..yawn……

    is what a liberal says when asked to spare a dime.

    Comment by Topsecretk9 (c4576e) — 10/17/2008 @ 12:48 am

  112. TSK9 – Ouch!

    Comment by daleyrocks (d9ec17) — 10/17/2008 @ 12:49 am

  113. #67

    and you know this because of your crystal ball? Tea leaves? ESP?

    Better even. It’s called a brain and a highly advanced BS detector.

    For example, these gems of supposedly a serious nature straight from the mouth of ole Joe the gosh darned Plumber:

    WURZELBACHER: Not right now at presently, but, you know, question, so he’s going to do that now for people who make $250,000 a year. When’s he going to decide that $100,000 is too much, you know? I mean, you’re on a slippery slope here. You vote on somebody who decides that $250,000 and you’re rich? And $100,000 and you’re rich? I mean, where does it end? You know, that’s – people got to ask that question.

    So, let’s see, is he worried about his taxes going up at $280K or going up at $100K?

    Sounds to me like he didn’t care either way, because what he really wanted to do was:

    You know, I’ve always wanted to ask one of these guys a question and really corner them and get them to answer a question of–for once instead of tap dancing around it. And unfortunately I asked the question but I still got a tap dance. Do you – almost as good as Sammy Davis Jr.

    So he wanted to “corner one of these guys”. It was all about some sort of little thrill for him.

    He didn’t really want to discuss what the changes would be at $280K, which he would’ve found out winds up being a measly $900 extra bucks a year, something anyone who was really serious about buying a business and making $280 K in profit would know was not a deal breaker. But no his direct belief is that Obama is lying to him and even at $100K he’s going to get an increase.

    But this is really the clincher for this guys stupidity:

    Obama speaks well, but the one thing that’s really important, that everyone in America really need to know is, you know, talk is talk. You know, he can speak pretty, but, you know, there’s got to be action behind it. We’ve seen McCain, we know his actions. Even if you disagree with him, at least you know where he stands. McCain – or Obama, we’re not sure where he stands yet, even after his debates. Like I said, he speaks eloquently, better than I do, but I honestly, I still don’t know where he stands. He’s said a lot, but none of his experience has backed it up. You know, the only experience I’ve seen or his actions are raising our taxes, so, you know, I’m middle class. I can’t have my taxes raised anymore.

    Completely unfounded baseless McCain talking points BS, and the guy doesn’t believe in any sort of progressive tax.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2008/10/16/politics/horserace/entry4525242.shtml

    Comment by Peter (e70d1c) — 10/17/2008 @ 12:52 am

  114. ‘Night Darleen and TSK9 – Nice to see you ladies!

    Comment by daleyrocks (d9ec17) — 10/17/2008 @ 12:53 am

  115. Topsecretk9,

    Michelle Malkin used her blog to practically give directions to the Frost’s house. She described where they lived, the sticker on their front door, the vehicles in their driveway. This is not even in doubt. Just google “michelle malkin graeme frost” and you will find her own blog posts advertising this information.

    You are okay with this?

    Comment by Clearwater (4674fb) — 10/17/2008 @ 12:53 am

  116. Clearwater

    You didn’t read. Surprise surprise.

    If you’re ignorant of the episode, study up. If you are just going to keep peddling lies about it, we have nothing to discuss.

    Maybe you have some windows to break somewhere.

    Comment by Darleen (187edc) — 10/17/2008 @ 12:55 am

  117. Night daley!!

    Comment by Darleen (187edc) — 10/17/2008 @ 12:55 am

  118. …..yawn……

    It’s what a Dem says when they realize Joe the Fraud actually helps their guy and makes McCain look like a joke and the polls open in 432 hours.

    Comment by snuffles (677ec2) — 10/17/2008 @ 12:56 am

  119. HOW DO YOU CUT INCOME TAX FOR 95%, when over a third pay no income tax at all?

    Instylink.

    It’s math and Obama and Biden are that good at that – 3 letter J O B S thing. or 57 states

    And 1929 FDR on TV thing.

    Comment by Topsecretk9 (c4576e) — 10/17/2008 @ 12:56 am

  120. Peter – If Joe the Plumber is as stupid as you say, why was he so successful at messing with Obama during their conversation?

    Comment by daleyrocks (d9ec17) — 10/17/2008 @ 12:58 am

  121. Meanwhile,

    Barack Obama’s campaign prides itself on grassroots organizing, with thousands of staff members targeting numerous subsets of the population for voter registration and persuasion. One even sought to register inmates.

    An internal email from the Michigan Department of Corrections in August describes a request from the campaign to enter jails to register those inmates set to be released before Election Day.

    SWEET, but Joe doesn’t have a license and owes taxes!

    Comment by Topsecretk9 (c4576e) — 10/17/2008 @ 1:01 am

  122. why was he so successful at messing with Obama during their conversation?

    Better yet, why was the Messiah smart enough not to be “messed with” Joe

    After all Joe has no control over the answers Obama supplies.

    Comment by Topsecretk9 (c4576e) — 10/17/2008 @ 1:04 am

  123. Hey Peter

    Joe is single. That means when his income reaches 125,000 (and through a S-corp business, the business’ income is “passed through” and taxed on the individual’s tax form) Obama punishes him.

    Oh, sorry…just mugs him to “spread the wealth” to the guy behind him.

    Obama approached HIM in HIS neighborhood and Joe didn’t have the good grace to just fall to his knees and kiss his feet. I mean, he asked a real question.

    Unheard of! Blasphemous! Off to the re-education camp! Joe believes the dollar he earns belongs to him first! The Nerve!!

    Someone rescue The Holy One from such kaffir!

    Comment by Darleen (187edc) — 10/17/2008 @ 1:05 am

  124. Darleen,

    Yes,in fact I did read your link. And there was not one word that refuted what I wrote about Michelle Malkin. “Surprise surprise” yourself. Do you care to point out exactly what it was I “lied” about?

    Comment by Clearwater (4674fb) — 10/17/2008 @ 1:06 am

  125. Night Daleen and daley!

    Really loving that liberals are making the case for the border fence. It’s refreshing.

    Comment by Topsecretk9 (c4576e) — 10/17/2008 @ 1:11 am

  126. Eric Blair: I dare you to put a BIG McCain sign in your front yard. Several of them. In fact, I think you should put up a sign with your home telephone number and address across town, with this written on it: “We need to have a rally for McCain-Palin. Call me or drop by my house and let’s discuss it.”

    THEN you can lecture people how “liberal fascism” is a myth.

    So to you a majority opinion, any majority opinion is fascism. So in essence, extending that thought, you think Democracy is fascist.

    Using your logic, Bush Republicans who voted for him 2000 and 2004 were fascists.

    And let’s say I did those things. People might give me a hard time because I’m in NYC, but they couldn’t and wouldn’t stop me from expressing my opinion or choice of a candidate. but I’d say most anywhere else in the country outside of the west coast, it would be greeted with indifference.

    Fascism is not so much about social pressure, although there is an element of that, it’s from a central authority requiring complete obedience and a squelching of individual thought, privacy, expression, movement or cultural identifiers that aren’t approved of. It’s a repressive oligarchy that puts forth the illusion of singular intent and stomps on human rights and resorts to violent suppression, torture and wholesale murder if necessary.

    The closest thing I’ve ever experienced like that is the Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld administration of 2003, 2004 and 2005.

    Joe the Plumber has the right to say anything he wants to Obama or McCain, that’s not at issue, but with the issues facing this country, McCain would do better to focus on them and not these continual stunts and gimmicks like Joe the Plumber whose name he invoked 21 times.

    Comment by Peter (e70d1c) — 10/17/2008 @ 1:26 am

  127. Darleen: Joe is single. That means when his income reaches 125,000 (and through a S-corp business, the business’ income is “passed through” and taxed on the individual’s tax form) Obama punishes him.

    Oh, sorry…just mugs him to “spread the wealth” to the guy behind him.

    Yes, of course Obama “punishes” and “mugs him”.

    You know it’s not going to matter one bit if the economy goes into a complete nosedive thanks to the incompetence of the Republicans and someone like McCain who’s understanding of it all is on the most superficial level. If Joe’s out of work and loses his house he’s not going to have worry about paying taxes at all.

    But yeah, I guess you’re right, the middle class in this country should continue to shoulder the tax burden for the rich in the top 1%.

    All that wealth should stop being spread to roads and bridges and airports, programs for children and old people and veterans. Screw all those people, why should they get my wealth right? Or how about the quality of your water or air or food? Screw that too. Who wants to spend his and her wealth on that crap?

    It’s such a stupid argument. No one is completely self made. The culture and the society make it possible for people to feel like they’re self made. But it’s not the case and it’s never been the case. It is a luxury to pay high taxes, because with all the loop holes available to businesses in this country it is essentially the most business friendly real tax rate in the world.

    Comment by Peter (e70d1c) — 10/17/2008 @ 1:38 am

  128. It is frightening how stupid LA Times has become. Journalism is not that hard. LAT has morphed into such a “preaching to the choir” newspaper, it is not interesting to the Democrats they pander to and not interesting to Republicans. Frightening and sad. LA needs a traditional newspaper.

    Comment by Wesson (f6c982) — 10/17/2008 @ 1:51 am

  129. daleyrocks,

    Joe the Plumber specifically volunteered to publicly challenge Barack Obama on his tax policy. He knew there were T.V. cameras present. He became a public figure deliberately. So,by The Right’s own rules, if Graeme Frost’s private life is “fair game” as Mark Steyn of NRO’s The Corner declared,then of course Joe the Plumber is “fair game”. How can you argue otherwise?

    Comment by Clearwater (4674fb) — 10/17/2008 @ 1:53 am

  130. Peter, US tax rates for successful business owners are more than double European rates.

    And while you’re right that the US provides the opportunity to be rich, it’s not fair to say that the successful owe everything to their government. They owe most of it to themselves and their families. And most of them would never have had a chance to be wealthy had tax rates prohibited more jobs, more business investments like Joe the Plumbers, etc. It’s low taxes that make success possible. And our military, of course.

    If you think the wealthy owe something, well, there is something there, but it’s not more than ten percent (even God doesn’t ask for more than that).

    Comment by Juan (4cdfb7) — 10/17/2008 @ 1:55 am

  131. Oh, Peter, quit being a dense twit:

    “…So to you a majority opinion, any majority opinion is fascism. So in essence, extending that thought, you think Democracy is fascist….”

    There have been many cases of vandalism of McCain signs in recent weeks. I work in academics, where saying you are a Republican bears a heavy cost. You know all this, and are just acting like a troll. There is a surprise.

    Don’t believe me? Or feel the need to try and insult me? So go ahead and try the experiment. But be sure to get some insurance first, okay?

    Because you have nothing to fear from the Republican fiction of Left of center groupthink, right? How great it would be to prove me wrong!

    Go away, give it a try for a week, then report back. Except you won’t, since you know what would happen. I especially like the idea of a sign asking McCain supporters to come by your house or call you on the telephone.

    I have to finish grading some papers. Why not give it a try? Again, you have nothing to fear from your very accepting and compassionate ideological brethern! It’s the Republicans who are all bitter and racist and….

    Seriously, I would love you to try my experiment. It’s the ideological version of Black Like Me. You would learn a few important lessons, I suspect.

    Comment by Eric Blair (e60b98) — 10/17/2008 @ 1:55 am

  132. Clearwater, you have ignored the attack on you, which proves that you lied about the Frost issue. Frost’s family was lying… he didn’t need SChip because his family is extremely wealthy. No sane voter would support welfare for millionaires. It was a bullshit argument.

    And you miss the main point:
    Obama came for questions, and one man asked a good one. Obama’s answer is what embarassed Obama. With Frost, there was a real lie to debunk. And the media scorn against Frost was minimal at best. The scorn on Joe? THOUSANDS of MSM stories in a 24 hour period.

    If you think you’re being fair, you’re crazy.

    Comment by Juan (4cdfb7) — 10/17/2008 @ 1:58 am

  133. Bruce Springsteen can’t be singing his working class songs now that he sings for the thugs who will crush the working class for asking the overlord a simple question.

    Joe the Plumber specifically volunteered to publicly challenge Barack Obama on his tax policy.

    Actually Obama picked Joe the Plumber out of a crowd of people and is now having to use his goons to intimidate and stifle Joe the Plumber because Obama screwed up by disclosing his real intentions.

    Argued otherwise, the difference is that Graeme Frost volunteered to give a speech at the reqpuest of the Democratic Party whereas at Obama’s request Joe the Plumber asked a question at an Obama campaign stop.

    He became a public figure deliberately.

    Oh please..you can’t be serious… if what you say is true how did Joe the Plumber get Obama to pick him out of a crowd?

    Comment by syn (9391df) — 10/17/2008 @ 2:12 am

  134. Juan,

    Please, please, show me where I lied about the Frosts. You are one of several folks here to accuse me of lying but none of you have specified exactly what it is you think I’m lying about.

    The Frosts are far from being “extremely wealthy” let alone “millionaires”. That is a fantasy cooked up in the mind of a paranoid FReeper and gleefully passed along by Michelle Malkin.

    And the fact remains that Michelle Malkin used her blog to practically give directions to the home of a 12-year-old brain damaged little boy. She published a description of his house, the vehicles in his driveway, information about where he and his siblings attended school. She accused this little boy of being the equivalent of one of Reagan’s famed (and fictional) “Welfare Queens” and all but invited her readers to harrass him and his family.

    Do you approve of Malkin’s tactics?

    Comment by Clearwater (4674fb) — 10/17/2008 @ 2:15 am

  135. syn,

    Actually Obama picked Joe the Plumber out of a crowd of people and is now having to use his goons to intimidate and stifle Joe the Plumber because Obama screwed up by disclosing his real intentions.

    What evidence do you have that Barack Obama had anything whatsoever to do with the exposure of Joe the Plumber as a complete fraud, liar and tax cheat?

    Argued otherwise, the difference is that Graeme Frost volunteered to give a speech at the reqpuest of the Democratic Party whereas at Obama’s request Joe the Plumber asked a question at an Obama campaign stop.

    Who exactly was it that physically forced Joe the Plumber to show up and ask questions of Barack Obama at that ropeline? He did that of his own free will as far as I can ascertain.

    He became a public figure deliberately.

    Oh please..you can’t be serious… if what you say is true how did Joe the Plumber get Obama to pick him out of a crowd?

    Did I ever say or even imply that Joe the Plumber was “a plant”. No. What I said was that he, knowing there were T.V. cameras present, chose to put himself in the public spotlight. He was trying to publicly embarrass Senator Obama with his question. Of that there is no doubt. And as I noted previously, it was not Senator Obama who broadcast Joe the Plumber’s full name during a nationally televised presidential debate. It was John McCain who did that.

    Comment by syn — 10/17/2008 @ 2:12 am

    Comment by Clearwater (4674fb) — 10/17/2008 @ 2:48 am

  136. Peter and Clearwater are astounding. They keep bringing up points completely unrelated to the matter at hand, go to links and do not comprehend what they read at all, and basically prove the key point of this issue–that Obama and his followers simply don’t find anything wrong with robbing people and giving their money to someone who hasn’t earned it and rarely deserves it. Oh, and they seem to believe that if someone else does something they consider mean and intolerable, that means they have a right to do it,too. Guys, either it’s mean and intolerable as you claim or it’s not. If it is, you shouldn’t do it, ever, or any claim you think you have to moral superiority is flushed down the toilet.
    They are almost the platonic ideal of liberals.

    Comment by Flubber (b3dbbd) — 10/17/2008 @ 3:11 am

  137. For the sake of placating a moron, allow me to confirm that these things are indeed true. Google “michelle malkin graeme frost” and see what comes up.

    What does that have to do with your claim that Joe Wurzelbach is “a fraud, a liar and a tax cheat”? Do you really think the non sequitur game is going to work here, stupid?

    And as for your query, “How does it change Obama’s answer to [Joe the Plumber's] question?”, show me where I said (or even implied) that it did.

    Then how is it relevant? How does tearing this guy down help Obama?

    Comment by Jim Treacher (592cb4) — 10/17/2008 @ 3:15 am

  138. Joe the Plumber specifically volunteered to publicly challenge Barack Obama on his tax policy. He knew there were T.V. cameras present. He became a public figure deliberately.

    A woman had an affair and a baby with a presidential candidate, and she was considered a private citizen who was protected by the press for weeks. But some guy asks Obama a question in front of a TV camera and now he has no right to privacy whatsoever. You miserable fascist.

    Comment by Jim Treacher (592cb4) — 10/17/2008 @ 3:23 am

  139. Flubber,

    Please, please, PLEASE tell me, WHAT THE HELL AM I LYING ABOUT?. I keep hearing from you all how I’m just lying about everything but none of you will give any specific examples.

    Is it not true that Michelle Malkin used her blog to practically give directions to Graeme Frost’s house? Is it not true that she described the sticker on his front door and the vehicles in his driveway? Is it not true that she published information about where he and his siblings attend school? Is it not true that she drove by his house, interrogated his neighbors and published gossipy emails from people claiming to know his family?

    All of this is provably true just by reading Michelle Malkin’s own blog posts.

    Do you people approve of Malkin’s tactics? I’ve yet to receive one answer to that question. You all apparently think it’s fine and dandy for Michelle Malkin to mercilessly “vet” a 12 year old brain damaged little boy but you think it’s oh-so-unfair to similarly “vet” a grown man who turns out to be a fraud, a liar and a tax cheat.

    Like I said, I have no idea how you people look yourselves in the mirror every morning.

    Comment by Clearwater (4674fb) — 10/17/2008 @ 3:33 am

  140. Like I said, I have no idea how you people look yourselves in the mirror every morning.

    We don’t have to see your face.

    Comment by Jim Treacher (592cb4) — 10/17/2008 @ 3:35 am

  141. Joe is a righteous guy. He doesn’t believe in socialism (spreading of wealth) even if his tax improves with BHO. Anyone who believes that BHO tax schem is not going to adversely affect them because they make less than $200K is naive. The only people who will benefit are the people who do not pay any income tax and thus will be getting a government handout.

    Comment by I am Joe (16356b) — 10/17/2008 @ 3:39 am

  142. Jim Treacher,

    That’s quite the snappy comeback. What’s next… “I know you are but what am I”?

    And still, you did not answer my questions.

    1)What exactly have I lied about?

    2) Do you approve of Michelle Malkin’s tactics?

    Comment by Clearwater (4674fb) — 10/17/2008 @ 3:47 am

  143. That’s quite the snappy comeback.

    You actually think you’re being sarcastic. Now answer my questions:

    1. When did you stop raping your sister?
    2. Why are you lying about the previous question?

    Comment by Jim Treacher (592cb4) — 10/17/2008 @ 3:54 am

  144. After a few years of Obama’s economic policies, we won’t even need plumbers. We will be living like Obama’s brother in Kenya, with no indoor plumbing.

    Comment by Perfect Sense (9d1b08) — 10/17/2008 @ 4:00 am

  145. Jim Treacher,

    For the sake of placating a moron, allow me to confirm that these things are indeed true. Google “michelle malkin graeme frost” and see what comes up.

    What does that have to do with your claim that Joe Wurzelbach is “a fraud, a liar and a tax cheat”? Do you really think the non sequitur game is going to work here, stupid?

    He’s a fraud and a liar because he claimed to be a plumber when he has no license and is not recognized as a plumber by the city he works in. And because the business he said he wants to buy doesn’t make anywhere near the amount he claimed it does. He’s a tax cheat because he hasn’t paid his taxes and there is a tax lien against him. Every bit of this is public record.

    And as for your query, “How does it change Obama’s answer to [Joe the Plumber's] question?”, show me where I said (or even implied) that it did.

    Then how is it relevant? How does tearing this guy down help Obama?

    Comment by Jim Treacher — 10/17/2008 @ 3:15 am

    Now you’re not even making any sense. When did I say it was relevant? And when did I claim that tearing down JTP helped Obama? You’re just plain hallucinating. There are anti-psychotic drugs that can help you help with that. Ask your doctor.

    Comment by Clearwater (4674fb) — 10/17/2008 @ 4:00 am

  146. Yes you are a liar, Clearwater.

    Would you like a second opinion on that?

    You are ugly too.

    So was Graeme (Mom + Dad Frost are some sadistic people deliberately misspelling the kids name like that. Think of how hard it will be for a normal kid – then add brain damage) … I digress.

    So was Graeme threatened with the IRS, or in danger of losing his job?

    Not a chance. Michelle’s agenda was never about destroying the kids life.
    The Democratic agenda in regard to Joe is.

    Comment by papertiger (fbc22c) — 10/17/2008 @ 4:07 am

  147. He’s a fraud and a liar because he claimed to be a plumber when he has no license and is not recognized as a plumber by the city he works in. And because the business he said he wants to buy doesn’t make anywhere near the amount he claimed it does. He’s a tax cheat because he hasn’t paid his taxes and there is a tax lien against him. Every bit of this is public record.

    And it’s now your business because he dared to ask Obama a question and Obama answered honestly by accident.

    Now you’re not even making any sense.

    Says the guy who has to be asked the same question over and over because he’s answering somebody else’s questions or something.

    When did I say it was relevant?

    When did I say your non sequiturs didn’t make you sound like a dunce?

    And when did I claim that tearing down JTP helped Obama?

    If not, then what purpose does it serve? You seem to be having a rare lucid moment, so try to take advantage of it and come up with a coherent answer.

    Comment by Jim Treacher (592cb4) — 10/17/2008 @ 4:08 am

  148. And you walk funny.

    Comment by papertiger (fbc22c) — 10/17/2008 @ 4:12 am

  149. #138 – The “newsmen” who have been “exposing” Joe the Plumber must be even greater frauds and liars as none of them have “journalism licenses” and none are recognized by any state or federal agency as journalists. Some may work for companies with a business license, but I doubt if any individuals practicing journalism have licenses. Just think, the state and lefties expect higher standards from a plumber than a journalist.

    Comment by Perfect Sense (9d1b08) — 10/17/2008 @ 4:13 am

  150. Quoting Jim Treacher:

    You actually think you’re being sarcastic. Now answer my questions:

    1. When did you stop raping your sister?
    2. Why are you lying about the previous question?

    Comment by Jim Treacher — 10/17/2008 @ 3:54 am

    1) I am a 5’2″, 95 lb woman and my only sister was killed in a car accident when I was 15 years old. If you still want to accuse me of raping my sister, well… what can I say… go nuts.

    2) You still haven’t answered what it is that you think I’ve lied about or whether or not you approve of Michelle Malkin’s tactics.

    Comment by Clearwater (4674fb) — 10/17/2008 @ 4:20 am

  151. #82 love2008
    So YOU make up the principles for all Americans???? Just as abortion should be an individual coice, shouldn’t charity as well?
    The rich (which I am not) already pay more taxes because they earn more money. They also create jobs which are taxed, buy supplies which are taxed, and consume luxury items which are taxed. You fool.

    Comment by Bfidler (e8f3cb) — 10/17/2008 @ 4:25 am

  152. 1) Why are you lying about your sister?
    2) What other non sequiturs would you like to type out?

    Comment by Jim Treacher (592cb4) — 10/17/2008 @ 4:30 am

  153. Please notice how future and current MSM articles/discussions about Joe the Plumber will
    omit the fact that Obama wishes to “Spread the
    Wealth”.

    If we could keep Obama off the teleprompter, the
    polls would reflect 60/40 for McCain.

    Comment by Ken the Krusher (754a71) — 10/17/2008 @ 4:35 am

  154. This is the kind of thing that resonates with people. An ordinary man asking a politician a question about taxes and the politician saying “well, I don’t think you pay enough taxes”. Same as for the Child Born Alive Act or Wright’s “Goddamn America”. It negates a hundred Berlin Rallies.

    Comment by nk (f2ee58) — 10/17/2008 @ 4:40 am

  155. (Should have finished that thought.) Maybe Joe’s back taxes and hospital bill will confuse and dilute the issue or maybe it will make him more real to people whose money goes to pay for the homes and hospital bills of other people instead of their own.

    Comment by nk (f2ee58) — 10/17/2008 @ 4:43 am

  156. Once again…

    1) What, specifically, have I lied about wrt Joe the Plumber and/or Michelle Malkin?

    2) Do you or do you not approve of Michelle Malkin’s tactics regarding Graeme Frost?

    Comment by Clearwater (4674fb) — 10/17/2008 @ 4:45 am

  157. Oh man. Hillary and Bill had FBI files to hold over people. Obama doesn’t need the FBI; he has the entire MSM to do anal exams on regular citizens and will use those to destroy all of us not on board with the Messiah. This should scare the living crap out of every one of us.

    Comment by Peg C. (48175e) — 10/17/2008 @ 4:53 am

  158. 1) Why are you quoting me saying things I haven’t said?
    2) When does the lady with the white shoes come around with the pills?

    Comment by Jim Treacher (592cb4) — 10/17/2008 @ 4:54 am

  159. Peg C presents maybe the most important lesson to learn out of Joe the Plumber business…..MSM will go to any lengths to “protect” THE ONE.

    Comment by Ken the Krusher (754a71) — 10/17/2008 @ 4:56 am

  160. Jim Treacher:

    1) What quotes are you referring to, exactly?

    2) The lady in the white shoes will be around with your pills any minute now. Hang in there.

    Comment by Clearwater (4674fb) — 10/17/2008 @ 5:06 am

  161. Is it not true that Michelle Malkin used her blog to practically give directions to Graeme Frost’s house?

    No, it isn’t. And even if it were, you’re talking about apples and oranges. JTP asked Baracky a question on a rope line. The Democrats rolled Graeme Frost out to give their weekly radio address in support of expanding a federal welfare program that he has already benefited from tremendously.

    Reporting, in the Frost incident, is a matter of seeing where our money is going in the case of a family the Democrats and the family themselves willfully placed into the limelight.

    Comment by Pablo (99243e) — 10/17/2008 @ 5:19 am

  162. These are not the thugz that I knew.

    Comment by Dan Collins (4dc2da) — 10/17/2008 @ 5:21 am

  163. What, specifically, have I lied about wrt Joe the Plumber and/or Michelle Malkin?

    Well, there’s this:

    Is it not true that Michelle Malkin used her blog to practically give directions to Graeme Frost’s house?…All of this is provably true just by reading Michelle Malkin’s own blog posts.

    Comment by Pablo (99243e) — 10/17/2008 @ 5:22 am

  164. No. Regardless of whether or not he was a McCain plant, his questions and concerns where not expressed in good faith, his goal wasn’t to have a serious discussion about tax policies, it was simply to F**k w/ Obama and pull his chain. You know, the usual right wing fratboy BS, that thinks messing around with serious people with serious intents is hilarious and hardship is for someone else.

    So Peter… “sweetie”.. why wasn’t the one smart enough to see the “trap” and answer the question in any way BUT what a good communist will say?

    Peter.. .”sweetie”.. that is the point. YOUR The ONE… is a communist and told his “spread the wealth” plan in one succinct moment, because even the wicked can get tripped up by the innocent.

    I am going to make it my personal mission to keep you on track “sweetie”.. because you don’t get it. It isn’t about Joe. Its about The One.

    Comment by Noelie (84280c) — 10/17/2008 @ 5:23 am

  165. Shall we talk about your breath?

    You lied about Michelle drawing a map to this kid’s house. Giving a discription of the bumpersticker just show’s the parents BDS mindset. The discription of the truck was purposefully vague and restricted to it’s estimated value.

    And tic tacs won’t help you.

    Comment by papertiger (fbc22c) — 10/17/2008 @ 5:24 am

  166. Pablo,

    Thank you for at least attempting to answer one of my questions. But how is it not true? Have you read Michelle Malkin’s blog posts on this? Please google “michelle malkin graeme frost” and see what comes up. Then get back to me.

    Comment by Clearwater (4674fb) — 10/17/2008 @ 5:26 am

  167. Yeah, Peter. Those fratboys are always pulling that tax policy question prank on each other, because it’s a laugh riot every time they do it. “Hmmm….wanna strip the newbie naked and lock him out of the house, or should we ask him the tax policy question? That’s a tough call, let’s do both.”

    Comment by Pablo (99243e) — 10/17/2008 @ 5:27 am

  168. Clearwater and Peter are providing a “Through the Looking Glass” moment here.

    Comment by JD (5f0e11) — 10/17/2008 @ 5:33 am

  169. Mark my words, “President Obama for life.” Think I am kidding? Watch the Congress try to allow no-limit to terms.

    Comment by Jeff (ada681) — 10/17/2008 @ 5:37 am

  170. 1) What quotes are you referring to me referring to?
    2) Why are you failing the Turing Test?

    Comment by Jim Treacher (592cb4) — 10/17/2008 @ 5:41 am

  171. Yesterday my 2nd grader had a lesson on identifying the “main idea” in a story. Perhaps some of the MSM and a few of the posters here missed that day in second grade.

    Maybe thay also missed the day in kindergarten where we were taught to “be nice” and “be kind”.

    TR- as said elsewhere above, the responsibility to care for those less fortunate means to do so with your own money, not to take other peoples money to do it. Also, there is a responsibility to “do onto others as you would have them do onto to you”. Are these newspaper reporters and “anti-Joe” posters eagerly seeking to fulfill that responsibility?

    Comment by MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 10/17/2008 @ 5:45 am

  172. Thank you for at least attempting to answer one of my questions. But how is it not true?

    It’s not true because she didn’t do what you said she did. If you’ve googled up something that shows otherwise, please quote and link it. But you won’t be able to do that because your claim is false.

    Comment by Pablo (99243e) — 10/17/2008 @ 5:47 am

  173. Who cares about a tax lien? WE WANT TO KNOW IF HE HAS A TANNING BED!!!!

    Comment by Jeffersonian (7da589) — 10/17/2008 @ 5:56 am

  174. Thank you, Jeffersonian :-)

    Comment by MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 10/17/2008 @ 5:58 am

  175. What would THEY be doing to YOU right now if it was you that had had the AUDACITY to QUESTION the One?

    Comment by Techie (9251da) — 10/17/2008 @ 6:02 am

  176. Peter You haven’t been paying attention apparently. You said [Fascism is not so much about social pressure, although there is an element of that, it’s from a central authority requiring complete obedience and a squelching of individual thought, privacy, expression, movement or cultural identifiers that aren’t approved of. It’s a repressive oligarchy that puts forth the illusion of singular intent and stomps on human rights and resorts to violent suppression, torture and wholesale murder if necessary.] Get on the web and find out about Jessica Hughes – who told an ObamaThug that Called Her that she wouldn’t vote for the creep bec of his support of witholding medical care for babies born alive from a failed abortion (the “Born ALive” bill orders the hospitals to put the babies in a bin, and leave them until they die. BO ACTUALLY TRIED TO JUSTIFY HIS REASONING ON THIS!!) Jessica got a visit from The Secret Service at her Lufkin TX home, to “investigate her for a reported threat on BO’s life” by the caller. Then, there are the Missouri Truth Squads, hired by BO to initimidate and threaten with jail anyone who “says something deemed untrue” by the BO campaign! Scared yet? Then, there is the attempt to silence Stanley Kurtz, who broke the Bill Ayers Bernadine Dohrn terrirst connection news. BO tried to block the radio interview on WGN. Then, there’s the letter he wrote to the Dept of Justie to shut down TV stations running ads about him and Ayers. Now, are you scared?! This ScaryBOFraud has NO RESPECT for the laws of this land. He has worked his whole life to undermine American society; his “education work” (never hear much about that, it being noble and all..) was with radical socialist groups trying to “blow up” American education (Yes, Ayers/BO together) teaching, anti-nationalism, anti-Amercan, anti-family, hate-whitey crap. THIS IS FASCISM AND I SUGGEST YOU INFORM YOURSELF ABOUT BOBAMA”S PLAN FOR YOUR COUNTRY

    Comment by gel (a5623c) — 10/17/2008 @ 6:04 am

  177. The Ballad of Joe the Plumber

    They tell me
    He understands the stuff that motivates me
    He’ll fix the hole that’s in my soul and sell me
    That he can spend my money better than me

    They said
    That by guns and Bibles my life is led
    It’s bitterness that drives what’s all inside of my head
    And that by his elite snobs I should be led

    As far as I can see, it’s a pile of cow manure
    This ol’ false messiah should be flushed right down the sewer

    And we’ll lose
    He’s never walked in Joe the Plumber’s shoes
    If he gets in charge, there’s nothing for us but bad news
    I won’t be fooled, my friends, and neither should you

    Comment by bob (919e95) — 10/17/2008 @ 6:07 am

  178. Treach – It is pretty apparent that Clearwater was lying about her “sister”.

    Trying to follow the “logic” presented by the Leftists here.

    Tim Mc would have you believe it is McCain’s fault for the way the Left has acted, and it is McCain’s responsibility to vet people that Baracky chooses to speak to.

    Peter is being a peter.

    Clearwater thinks that there is some sort of moral equivalence between a family that knowingly chooses to allow their child to be used by the Dems on their weekly radio address, and someone that is approached by Baracky on the campaign trail.

    Comment by JD (f7900a) — 10/17/2008 @ 6:11 am

  179. Then the mask comes off …

    He’s a fraud and a liar because he claimed to be a plumber when he has no license and is not recognized as a plumber by the city he works in. And because the business he said he wants to buy doesn’t make anywhere near the amount he claimed it does. He’s a tax cheat because he hasn’t paid his taxes and there is a tax lien against him. Every bit of this is public record.

    As has been pointed out in numerous places on these here innertubes, he only needed to be “licensed” for commerical work. As he apparently did residential work, this is really a non-starter. Tax liens are important in re. people that dare have the audacity to hope that Baracky might not raise their taxes. To a campaign finance chairman, not so much.

    Comment by JD (f7900a) — 10/17/2008 @ 6:14 am

  180. I’m a micro-business owner. This means my business consists of me and a number of contractors that I hire to complete projects. I make considerably less than $250,000 every year. In fact, most of the small business owners I know make considerably less than $250,000 per year.

    But a whomping majority of SBOs do not support Obama’s confiscatory tax philosophy. And they know that, in fact, $250,000 is not really that much money. How can I say this? Because as an SBO, I don’t have a government or corporate job that is going to take care of me and my family when I get old, providing discounted insurance, benefits, and retirement. Any dollar I make is a dollar I need to save so that someday I can stop working. SBOs like me have to work ’round the clock during busy season, and then beat the bushes to drum up work when it’s not. There’s a good reason why 9 out of 10 small businesses fail: because it’s very, very difficult.

    And Joe the Plumber wants to SOMEDAY make $250K. He doesn’t make that now, but aspires to it. And he knows he’d better start making that kind of money if he ever wants to be able to retire. People want to paint Joe as a liar/cheat/tax fraud. But that’s because they can’t see that he’s a businessman who is working hard to keep his business afloat (including struggling with his tax bill), and has aspirations to do better. I guarantee, practically every small business owner knows exactly where Joe is coming from, because we’re dealing with the same situation. And it’s scary to imagine how easily Obama and the Democrat Congress can make it even more difficult to thrive. If he becomes president, I’m concerned that I will never be able to retire. I hate that all these years of struggling and making ends meet, sacrificing so my business can grow, will then be penalized when it finally does.

    Comment by SK (5f8441) — 10/17/2008 @ 6:14 am

  181. People, Classic Law of Liberals: when you’re exposed with no argument, ATTACK the speaker.! It’s called ad hominem (and in a debate, it will cost you points) and it’s a herring. DOn’t get sucked in. Keep the focus on the issue. Barack Obama wants to impose a socialist government on America. Period.

    Comment by gel (a5623c) — 10/17/2008 @ 6:17 am

  182. Notice how when someone like Joe that the Left believes to be one of theirs strays from the plantation, how they are savaged, declared inauthentic, plants, liars, etc … ?

    Comment by JD (f7900a) — 10/17/2008 @ 6:17 am

  183. Peter, you are dumb as a box of rocks and so is your savior, Barry Soetoro.

    A average American is playing football with his kid in HIS neighborhood and Barry senses another photo op with his adoring press, so he goes over and instead of getting a BJ like Peter would give Barry, he actually gets an interesting question and Barry blew it. The smartest man ever actually told the American people that he plans on punishing business and people who make more than BARRY THINKS THEY SHOULD EARN.

    You haven’t ever questioned how old marxist Barry Soetoro came up with 250K, have you? Want to know the answer? He made it up out of whole cloth to appeal to imbeciles like you who know nothing about business and how they work. So in Obamaland, his supreme royalness will decide how much money someone should make before Barry can steal more of their money to buy voters like Peter.

    Americans hate communists, socialists and marxists, Barry knows it and so do you, hence why this man that allowed Barry to expose himself must be destroyed. Your savior blew the answer so why are you upset with the questioner and why did Barry lash out at him like an adolescent schoolgirl yesterday? How childish!

    Here is a bonus question for Peter, try not to have any seizures when answering:
    What is a “windfall” profit? What happens to the profits of a business?

    Comment by LogicalUS (742bd0) — 10/17/2008 @ 6:20 am

  184. Treacher certainly has Clearwater’s number. good job Jim.

    Comment by SPQR (26be8b) — 10/17/2008 @ 6:24 am

  185. To the commenter above who says Joe’s a big liar because the business he wants to buy doesn’t make $250K. If you run a business, you do so with the intention of making it grow. You market. You bang on doors. You buy ads. You hire good people. You broaden your skill base so you can meet the needs of more people. And consequently, you start to make more money than you did before you bought the business.

    Running a business is not the same as having a job where you’re limited by what people tell you that you can do. That’s the whole point of owning your business: It’s about freedom, and it’s simultaneously refreshing, exciting, and scary.

    I love running a business, even a small one. But I hate the idea that the arch-lefties in the Democrat party will caricature me as a fat cat in spats, throwing wads of cash into the fire to warm my spotty behind, the moment I get some measure of success.

    Comment by SK (5f8441) — 10/17/2008 @ 6:26 am

  186. Wow, Joe the plumber has had some financial challenges! What a loser! Perhaps if he had been one of those lucky Americans who support Obama and want to live off the government, he wouldn’t have gotten into financial trouble. Long live Obama and his leftist illuminati views!

    Comment by Jeff (8f2767) — 10/17/2008 @ 6:29 am

  187. It’s crazy to claim that a plumbing contractor would have to have millions in sales to generate enough taxable income to be affected by Obama’s changes.

    $90/hour billed out for a plumber isn’t unusual. At 60 hr/wk, also not unusual, that’s $280,000. On top of that, expect to mark up materials by 30% at least, and employee labor costs by 20%. The markups will more than cover any expenses, which would be minimal – mostly the truck and tools. 300K$ – 400K$ taxable income wouldn’t be surprising, assuming business expenses under 50K$.

    Since Joe is single, he’ll be affected by Obama’s changes well below $250,000 taxable income, anyway. So he had a very legitimate concern.

    Comment by S Corp Sam (f1505d) — 10/17/2008 @ 6:35 am

  188. Obama’s WealthSpread™ is coming to a store near you. Start queueing now!

    Comment by Comrade_Tovarich (c0a2f2) — 10/17/2008 @ 6:40 am

  189. Obama’s Trickle Up Poverty

    Comment by Gerald (4740dd) — 10/17/2008 @ 6:42 am

  190. McCain and Palin need to get back to the message. The message is:

    1. Obama wants to “spread the wealth around”
    2. Small businesses are going to suffer under Obama’s tax plan.

    Joe the Plumber IS the story, Sam Wurzelbacher IS NOT the story. The Joe the Plumber story demonstrates the difference between the two tax plans; it shows that Obama will kill small businesses. What Sam really makes, Sam’s tax liens and his private life is NOT the story.

    Obama’s campaign by digging through Sam’s private life have turned the story from Joe to Sam. It needs to get turned back around.

    Comment by katablog.com (c1f9f9) — 10/17/2008 @ 6:42 am

  191. But it does serve a useful function: it warns any future citizen who might dare question Barack Obama that his life will be closely scrutinized for any irrelevant but embarrassing information.

    Too true. That’s why the general public keeps their heads down – they’re afraid of what could happen to them. I’ve seen it, here in Hudson County, for years now. This is also why the polls may be skewed – people are afraid to tell a pollster if they’re voting for McCain, but not if they’re voting for Obama. (In fact, if they’re voting for Obama, they want to tell the pollster several times.)

    Comment by Mister Snitch (0a8453) — 10/17/2008 @ 6:44 am

  192. Clearwater,

    Journalists can be ignorant of trades outside their experience.
    non union plumbers work under the license of the owner of the plumbing company.
    Joe is not a card carrying union certified “PLUMBER”.
    Of course he does plumbing work all day 5 days a week, 50 weeks a year anyway because regardless of what the union refuses to call him, the rest of the world that deals in reality knows Joe is a plumber…because he does plumbing work all day.
    So Joe isn’t lying, but someone else sure is.

    I also read that a mom and pop company like Newell (evidently where Joe works… doing plumbing work all day but he’s not a plumber!!!) Newell plumbing would need to gross $5M in order for mom and pop newell to net over $250K.
    Why just accept that as true?
    Because whoever was quoted is an “expert”?
    Really?
    I am appalled at the ignorance the left shows about small businesses, and in particular those involved in the construction trades.
    I’m not going to go into the details, but there are ways to run a plumbing business that will net $250K on a gross of under $1M.
    You’ll have to net $125HR. Construction plumbers rates where I’m at are $77HR. Materials mark up is wholesale list price plus 15%… if pop works out in the field with a smal crew and is charged hourly and mom runs the office…well, there’s your clues, figure it out.

    Anyway, Joe isn’t lying…. but the press is maybe lying, and certainly is ignorant.
    This brings me to another of my peeves with over educated liberals… they think that a cited published source must be 100% accurate if it fits their over all narrative and narrow world view.

    I won’t go into the Joe is lying because he goes by “Joe” when his middle name is Joseph argument, because that argument is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever seen.
    Whoever brought that one out has let their emotions affect their IQ, and IQ has lost that battle… in a rout.

    I gotta go. Work starts at 7AM in construction and I need to make sure the electricians and the concrete guys are coordinated in running conduit under slab to all the right locations.
    Ooooops. I called guys that do electrical work competently all day “electricians” when they are not individually licensed or union certified… what should I call them?

    Think for yourself.

    Oh, and love?

    I don’t want any of your money… I can go get my own

    Comment by SteveG (71dc6f) — 10/17/2008 @ 6:47 am

  193. Hold on just a cotton-picking minute here. Joe was not on a rope line when he spoke to O! Baracky was going door to door on the street where JTP lives, with camera crews in tow.

    Yes, that’s right. Barack Obama led a camera crew directly to Joe the Plumber’s house!!eleventy!1! That MONSTER!!!fortyseven!!1!!

    Clearwater, certainly you condemn this horrific invasion of privacy, right?

    Comment by Pablo (99243e) — 10/17/2008 @ 7:01 am

  194. Patterico

    WSJ is reporting the Story now congrats

    Comment by EricPWJohnson (47b9ab) — 10/17/2008 @ 7:15 am

  195. The Joe the Plumber story just might win the election for McCain and the Obama people know it. That’s why they are going after him with everything they can find. Even the Toledo building department, taking time from their efforts to block investigation of voter fraud, are “looking for him.”

    He was in the apprentice program since 2003, so he is a plumber.

    The Obama bots here came out in force during the time when those of us with a job were asleep.

    Tim McGarry is back, I see. I guess he is over his grief at the fate of Hiltzik.

    Somebody (maybe a bot) thinks a Democrat volunteering to make a TV ad for Kerry using a special needs child is the same as a guy who was approached by Obama and asked an inconvenient question. Too bad reporters hadn’t been asking these questions.

    The Obama frenzy is amazing. Poor Joe. Peter thinks McCain should have “vetted him,” as if Obama’s answer was a McCain plot. Peter, the question wasn’t the problem; it was the answer !

    Comment by Mike K (2cf494) — 10/17/2008 @ 7:19 am

  196. An excellent synopsis, Mike.

    Comment by CW Desiato (614aa7) — 10/17/2008 @ 7:21 am

  197. The funny thing is, Joe the Plumber was playing football in his own front yard when Obama walked into his neighborhood.

    http://toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081016/NEWS09/810160418

    Quote:

    Mr. Wurzelbacher was playing football in his front yard with his son, Joey, on Sunday afternoon when Mr. Obama made an unscheduled stop to go door to door greeting voters and asking for their support.

    But that will not prevent people from claiming that this is some kind of McCain operation. Insane Andrew Sullivan is already on the case.

    And since he isn’t a licensed plumber, the City of Toledo Plumbing Board of Control may consider a punishment for Wurzelbacher. That should teach him about speaking up to his betters:

    http://nbc24.com/news/news_story.aspx?id=207948

    The plumber asked candidate Obama a legitimate question about his economic plan and it was Obama who put his foot in his mouth and revealed that he wanted to Spread. The. Wealth. I think this is what has stuck a needle deep into the lefty psyche. The lefties are going bananas over this guy. On other blogs, folks have pulled up his divorce records and found that he was – gasp! divorced. They found a “connection” (probably bogus) to the infamous Charles Keating based upon a common last name. They’ve found that he owes some back taxes. They’ve found speeding tickets dating back to 1993. They’ve posted his home address and mortgage. This is all from the party of the “little people”.

    The press has dug deeper into his background in hours than they have into Obama’s background in months. This guy is going to regret ever opening his mouth and asking Obama a legitimate question.

    Comment by Kevin P. (d9c9be) — 10/17/2008 @ 7:33 am

  198. WOW you liberals are amazing! The guy might be the biggest liar there is -e is not, Barack takes the cake there, Ayers and the New Born Protection law are just two examples of how he can look you in your eyes and lie to you- but that does not matter! It does not matter because what matter is that he asked a question of Obama and Obama’s true colors came shining through! He did not lay a trap or somehow confused Mesiah about anything he just asked a simple question and the words “spread the wealth around” came out of the annointed one. So what now because I have problems and I lie and I sin daily, I cannot ask a question of your candidate? if any among you be without sin then cast the first stone. I would like to see your reaction if we could employ a task force of lawyers to find out your pecadilloes and expose them as a reason why my post here which I am responsible for and are my own words is not relevant because of your faults. I MEAN COME ON!

    Oh and one more thing, you justify this attacks on Joe by saying that Obama’s treasurer’s name did not come up X times during the debate but Joe’s did; do you know how stupid you are by asking that question? First, If McCain would have mentioned Nesbitt 15 times he would be a racist and Obama would have no previous knowledge of this, in other words that is not the treasurer he knew; second I guess the media needs to be proned to investigate? How about all the scandals going on in congress with democrat reps? How about Fannie and Freddy? How about the major in Detroit? I mean are you kidding me? Are you really that blind or are you that stupid? There I feel better I got it off my chest.

    Comment by Ardg65 (2be4eb) — 10/17/2008 @ 7:38 am

  199. Peter, Clearwater Breaking News:

    Word is a little ole lady from Pasadena asked Barry a difficult question don’t you at the Daily Kos, NBC, ABC, and AP need to dispatch a horde of “journalist” to destroy her?

    Comment by LogicalUS (742bd0) — 10/17/2008 @ 7:44 am

  200. Clearwater,

    You have endorsed the idea that Joe the Plumber is “a tax cheat because he hasn’t paid his taxes and there is a tax lien against him.”

    There are several tax liens against Obama’s treasurer and his companies. By your logic, Obama’s treasurer is a tax cheat.

    Let’s say that again: Obama’s treasurer is a tax cheat.

    It’s your logic that compels the conclusion.

    Is it not newsworthy that, by your logic, Obama’s treasurer is a tax cheat?

    Comment by Patterico (e4d643) — 10/17/2008 @ 7:49 am

  201. Oh the idiocy. The sheer idiocy. Arguing that Joe the Plumber couldn’t possibly make more than $250K if he owned a plumbing business because plumbers only make $45K is sheer and utter idiocy.

    If Joe the Plumber owned the plumbing business he would, in essence, be setting up jobs for several plumbers in his employ.

    There are several companies in Georgia like this: Atlanta Roofing, Mr. Plumber, Glass Doctor… they take the calls and set up the appointments and then have either employees or independent contractors to send out on the jobs.

    The sheer idiocy of arguing the strawman that one plumber cannot make $250k. Are all the Joe Biden clones being dumb or just hoping you are?

    How can allegedly educated people be so dang ignorant?

    Comment by w3bgrrl (5b8906) — 10/17/2008 @ 7:51 am

  202. One more thing, go back to this time of year two years ago to any paper and all you will see is Foley and Macaca (Sen George Allen’s downfall) for weeks on end the MSM all they did was demand investigations, conduct them and oh by the way Foley did not have sex with any one, he sent some very disgusting emails, but no paying with your tax dollars to cover it up, nothing, but back then, investigations were demanded to see when the rest of the republicans knew about this, etc Is just DISGUSTING how biased the MSM is and how when we point it out, the lefties try to change the topic to something else. For a very good definition of democrats, lefties, socialists is all the same, watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qemv96c9cE

    Comment by Ardg65 (2be4eb) — 10/17/2008 @ 7:53 am

  203. So, like, that WLS guy, is he still posting around here? I just noticed Obama raised more than 60 million dollars in September, and I seem to recall this WLS character posting repeatedly over the summer that it was only a matter of time before the bottom dropped out for Obama’s fundraising.

    I think he should be made fun of!

    Comment by Uh, Terry? (3294b8) — 10/17/2008 @ 7:56 am

  204. In response to the spectacle of a man being hounded out of his job because he had the temerity, as a US citizen, to ask a question of a presidential candidate the LAT sees no parallel to the theme of “nasty Republicans” that they have been hammering for two weeks. LAT writers Robin Abcarian and P.J. Huffstutter breezily dismiss the McCarthyite tactics against Wurzelbacher with this line: “Fames comes at a price.”

    Really? Did fame come at a price for Bill Ayers?

    Comment by Aldo (4ca181) — 10/17/2008 @ 7:58 am

  205. Joe the Plumber specifically volunteered to publicly challenge Barack Obama on his tax policy. He knew there were T.V. cameras present. He became a public figure deliberately. So,by The Right’s own rules, if Graeme Frost’s private life is “fair game” as Mark Steyn of NRO’s The Corner declared,then of course Joe the Plumber is “fair game”. How can you argue otherwise?

    Comment by Clearwater

    So when the Dear Leader invades my neighborhood and deigns to speak to me, you’re warning me that I better not say anything you think is out of line or else I and my personal history is “fair game.”

    You dare say that responding to a political figure in public before TV cameras that I didn’t invite is the same as volunteering to deliver the Democratic Party’s Weekly Radio Address.

    That is the definition of political intimidation. And you could have done nothing more to demonstrate just how evil and criminal the left is. Read your constitution. I have the right to petition my government and to free speach.

    Speaking as a private citizen, representing my own individual views, is not the same thing as volunteering to be the official party spokesman, you stalinist. It doesn’t matter if TV cameras are there or not.

    In order to have free speach I must be able to express my opinion publicly. In order to petition my government I must express myself publicly, you dolt.

    No matter. You intend to retaliate by violating my right to privacy if I exercise my individual rights in ways you don’t like.

    Thereby saying you intend to deprive me of my rights.

    Thanks for illustrating that you and your party and candidate are exactly the anti-American thugs we always thought you were.

    Thanks for illustrating that the current interest the press is expressing in Joe the plumber isn’t any expression of “honest interest” in the man but a deliberate and coordinated attempt to supress dissent. Just like we always knew.

    The Bill of Rights will only apply in privacy in BHO and clearwater’s New Amerikka. If you express an unapproved opinion in any setting where you have no expectation of privacy, clearwater makes it clear you are “fair game.”

    Best shut up in those town hall meetings, folks, when Barry’s the new sheriff in town. He’ll sic his storm troopers like clearwater on you.

    You know, that last question “How can you argue otherwise?” is such a perfect distillation of leftist totalitarian ignorance-fueled arrogance that I could almost be convinced you wrote it in satire. But then, I’ve read other things you posted, so I know better. By asking the rhetorical question you demonstrate that in your world their is no other legitimate opinion imaginable. You don’t know and don’t care about what the Bill of Rights protects, only about tearing it up.

    Dream on, clearwater.

    Comment by Steve (1c36b3) — 10/17/2008 @ 8:00 am

  206. I am a 5′2″, 95 lb woman and my only sister was killed in a car accident when I was 15 years old.

    After watching this unfold, I was just waiting for the time – honored lefty canard of using fraudulent tragedy in order to deflect uncomfortable questions. Always repellent, yet always expected – once that mask slips, their true identities are bared for all to see, and it’s not a pretty sight.

    Comment by Dmac (cc81d9) — 10/17/2008 @ 8:05 am

  207. oops. Apparently the LAT misplaced the Joe the Plumber story, linked to above…something lighter now, the Alfred Smith dinner. Go figure.

    http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-na-campaign17-2008oct17,0,373757.story

    Comment by Dana (b4a26c) — 10/17/2008 @ 8:10 am

  208. I’m starting to think that Obama might have lost the election on this incident. This was the “October surprise.” Remember when McCain supporters wanted to get Obama off the teleprompter ? I think it just happened and so does Bob Krumm.

    That may be the reason for the frenzy on the left. The see it too.

    ACORN, get back to work.

    Comment by Mike K (2cf494) — 10/17/2008 @ 8:11 am

  209. Do tax cheats really have liens filed against them? There seems to be a difference between being unable to pay taxes and cheating on taxes. Just sayin’

    Dmac #199 – Treach and I called her on that whopper above.

    Comment by JD (f7900a) — 10/17/2008 @ 8:14 am

  210. Thank you, Steve. There IS a certain Marxian tone from the left at times, isn’t there?

    This from imdw above, “Welcome to progressive taxation. You find thisto be news, eh?”

    Believe it or not, I think the first time I read about progressive taxation was in high school, when I got ahold of a copy of the Communist Manifesto. I had this guilty thrill in reading it. So subversive. And I was so disappointed. It was just a stupid pamphlet filled with the same stuff I was hearing from Birch Baye, my Democrat Senator at the time. Including, (in case you missed the point, im) progressive taxation.

    I wish I could vote for Joe.

    Comment by Don (47b0b8) — 10/17/2008 @ 8:15 am

  211. In response to the spectacle of a man being hounded out of his job because he had the temerity, as a US citizen, to ask a question of a presidential candidate the LAT sees no parallel to the theme of “nasty Republicans” that they have been hammering for two weeks. LAT writers Robin Abcarian and P.J. Huffstutter breezily dismiss the McCarthyite tactics against Wurzelbacher with this line: “Fame comes at a price.”

    “Fame comes at a price.” That’ll rank right up there with “Arbeit Macht Frei” as an expession of totalitarian duplicity.

    An expression intended to provide cover for the press clearly signals their intent to intimidate. Say something they don’t like, and they will make you famous in order to exact a price. And they want you to know it.

    Put a TV camera in every public forum where citizens are supposed to be able to address their representatives, and a warning sign in clear view, “Remember, fame comes at a price!”

    The guardians of Barack Obama’s privacy will make sure you pay it.

    Comment by Steve (1c36b3) — 10/17/2008 @ 8:15 am

  212. A Messiah Manufactured by Marxism
    Proof is in the Public Record.
    “The public record is our only proof,” says former Naval Intelligence Officer Marion Valentine.
    “In 1963, while serving in Navy Intelligence (1958-1967), I read the FBI file on Frank Marshall Davis. He had outlined the Communist plan to take over America from within, by installing educators at all levels of our educational system, gaining control of the media, getting Liberal judges appointed, recruiting, training and backing people to be elected to public office.
    “I have researched every piece of legislation I can find that the Liberal Democrats have passed since the early sixties, and if you will research for yourself, you will find that they have been slowly moving this country toward Socialism.
    “When Obama announced he was running for President as an unknown with only one major speech at the DNC (that the DNC and MSM made so much fuss over), he aroused my old intel suspicions. So I started researching.
    “I have not found any evidence to convince me he is a Muslim, bur I did find his radical associations were unusual. I found Frank Marshall Davis, who had fled from Chicago to Hawaii when Obama was 12 years old, was Obama’s mentor from then till Davis died in 1987.
    “Davis put Obama in touch with the Socialist Party in Chicago (called the New Party) which Ayers is also a member of, (emphasis added) therefore the first “Planned” contact with Ayers. The New Party helped launch and finance Obama’s political career. Obama…selected, trained, groomed and scripted to become the “puppet” leader of the United Socialist States of America.

    Comment by Joe the Watchman (d654e9) — 10/17/2008 @ 8:17 am

  213. Obama paid One million dollars to Acorn to corrupt and add fraud voters to steal this election from the US citizens. Facts are facts and spin will not change it. Obama gave one million dollars to his cousin Marxist Muslim Odingsa in Kenya who lost the election. After that he killed thousands od christians and burnt down 800 churches. Hassan Obama has not said anything. Where is the left wing media. Joe the Plumber has more investigation in his life then Comrade B. Hassan Obama. A Classic Marxist

    Comment by Joe the Watchman (d654e9) — 10/17/2008 @ 8:23 am

  214. Remember what I said. It is true and part of a misinformation plan is to make the truth look paranoid. Just look around and see the media and DNC parroting the party line. The Christian Religion is evil. Homosexual is normal. Patriotism evil. Rebellion and changing the Constitution normal. Disarm the citizens normal. NRA and hunters evil. The Military and heroes evil. Anti military and ridicule heroes normal. Success and hard work evil. The government owes me normal. Shocking this is right out of the handbook of communist and Islamic terrorism guides to revolution and over throwing a country.. Schools teach the government is evil and socialism utopia normal. Divide the races through agitators and media. Destroy marriage and the families. The state is the parent. Call evil good and smear and destroy good. Look at the Hollywood crowd. McCarthy was right and history has proven it. They flock around dictators and tyrants Chavez, Castro, Iranian, and Syrians. Wake up and vote for McCain if you want freedom. After 40 years of Intelligence service I can just say look and watch. Look at Obama’s friend’s Islamic terror operatives. Rev. Wright preacher of Racist William Ayers radical terrorist. Farakhan. Research the hidden years at Columbia University. Also the overseas trips. Victor Marchenco, Ivan Scholos, Gory Machlinsos. Fhaad Hussan these are a few of the KGB friends who financed and open doors here through contacts. I am not long for this earth. A Terminal Sickness has attached to me. I want to warn my beloved country.

    Comment by Mag General Bruno (d654e9) — 10/17/2008 @ 8:26 am

  215. Clean-up in aisles 205, 206 & 207

    Comment by JD (f7900a) — 10/17/2008 @ 8:28 am

  216. I am a black Afro American and I state it as a Fact! Obama is a RACIST simple. That is all that comes out of his and his wifes mouth. Rev. Wright preached it for 20 years and Obama does not remember. Of course not he is part of the Farakhan hate machine. That is the reason Jesse Jackson wanted to cut his balls off. The problem is Obama does not have any. He sold them out to the lobyist at Fanny Mae and Freddie Mack and Middle Eastern Terrorists and George Soros.

    Comment by Percy (d654e9) — 10/17/2008 @ 8:29 am

  217. Geez, Steve,

    Joe has appeared voluntarily on every right-wing news outlet you can think of.

    It’s the right who has placed the entire burden of their failed campaign on his shoulders, the rest of America just sees him as a joke.

    Comment by snuffles (677ec2) — 10/17/2008 @ 8:29 am

  218. sniffles @ 210 – THEREFORE JOE MUST BE DESTROYED !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Comment by JD (f7900a) — 10/17/2008 @ 8:32 am

  219. Do tax cheats really have liens filed against them? There seems to be a difference between being unable to pay taxes and cheating on taxes. Just sayin’

    Comment by JD — 10/17/2008 @ 8:14 am

    Ask Charlie Rangel.

    Comment by CW Desiato (614aa7) — 10/17/2008 @ 8:33 am

  220. Comment by CW Desiato — 10/17/2008 @ 8:33 am

    Racist!

    Comment by Another Drew (7894e6) — 10/17/2008 @ 8:35 am

  221. Ask Charlie Rangel.

    Why bother? The Dems in Congress apparently don’t think there’s anything wrong with owing taxes…

    If they did, they would have the Ethics Committee investigate…

    Comment by Scott Jacobs (a1c284) — 10/17/2008 @ 8:42 am

  222. Maybe Joe the plumber couldn’t pay his back taxes because the cost of living is so high and he didn’t have an extra $2000 laying around to pay that bill and still feed and take care of his family.

    How is HE any different than all the people who do not pay their credit card bills or HOUSE payments or any other bill? He IS every man.

    Comment by Kathy (6afa35) — 10/17/2008 @ 8:45 am

  223. The American Right destroys everything it touches these days, JD.

    “Joe” the “Plumber” is no exception.

    Comment by snuffles (677ec2) — 10/17/2008 @ 8:47 am

  224. The Dems in Congress apparently don’t think there’s anything wrong with owing taxes…

    But a tax lien against Joe, who had the audacity to hope that Baracky might not raise his taxes is proof that Joe was part of the Keating 5 and that the McCain campaign knew Baracky would be going down that street door-to-door, so they moved this fascist skinhead into this house under cover of darkness and a bedsheet the night before, and planted him and someone posing as his son in the front yard knowing Barack would stop to talk to him. Because nobody in the Midwest would throw a football around in their yard with their kid. Nobody. Fucking plant by the TheNeoConz in an attempt to keep The Chosen One from his rightful place.

    Comment by JD (f7900a) — 10/17/2008 @ 8:47 am

  225. Since the Democrats are after Joe’s job, I guess he has enough time on his hands to defend himself. It sounds like he’s doing OK.

    snuffles, keep thinking he is a joke right up to election day.

    You simply don’t understand that the question is not the issue; it is Obama’s answer. Unless Joe is a mind control expert, Obama stepped in his own ideas.

    Comment by Mike K (2cf494) — 10/17/2008 @ 8:47 am

  226. snuffles – I would be fascinated to find out how the Baracky Goon Squads that set out to destroy and discredit Joe are the fault of the Right. This should be a doozie.

    Comment by JD (f7900a) — 10/17/2008 @ 8:50 am

  227. Right wing blogs (including this one) are the ones publishing all of Joe’s faults, JD.

    Normal news outlets could care less.

    Comment by snuffles (677ec2) — 10/17/2008 @ 8:54 am

  228. Fascinating. Right wing blogs reporting on the activities of the goons on the Left are respponsible for the actions of the goons on the Left. Up is down. Black is white.

    Racists

    Comment by JD (f7900a) — 10/17/2008 @ 9:01 am

  229. Snuffles what IS that stuff you’ve been smoking?
    Noted right wing blogger Bill Maher stepped on to Larry King’s show last night and the first words out of his mouth–on national TV–were “You know, Joe’s not even a real plumber.”

    But then what the heck–maybe Larry King and CNN are not a normal news outlet.

    Comment by Mike Myers (31af82) — 10/17/2008 @ 9:02 am

  230. “Friends of Obama”: Gave Nearly $1 Million to Odinga

    Odinga Supporters Burned Christians Alive
    Barack Obama has an Odinga problem, and it could be his Achille’s heel, proving that Obama’s only foreign policy achievement to date resulted in massive Muslim-led ethnic cleansing that murdered hundreds of Christians in Western Kenya in the post-election violence of his cousin Raila Odinga’s failed 2007 bid for the Kenyan presidency.
    Raila Odinga is the current Prime Minister of Kenya, and Barack Obama’s first cousin. Odinga’s mother was the sister of Barak Obama, Sr, who was also a member of Odinga’s Luo (or Jalou) tribe.
    Odinga’s father was the late Kenyan politician Jaramogi Odinga Oginga, and he, Barak Obama Sr, and Raila Odinga both attended the same Maseno high school in Western Kenya.

    Barack Obama campaigned extensively for Odinga in late 2006 while visiting Kenya on US taxpayer funded trips, and was even denounced by the sitting government as an “Odinga stooge”.

    Odinga was never elected Prime Minister, rather he ran as a member of the Orange Democratic Movement (ODM), and lost a close election to the incumbent President Mwai Kibaki by 250,000 votes.
    This loss and the Odinga campaigns subsequent accusations of election fraud sparked horrible violence and ethnic cleansing between Odinga’s Muslim Luo Tribe (13% of the Kenyan population) and Kibaki’s Kikuyu (20 percent of Kenya’s population) tribe, who vowed that without Odinga’s election, there would be no peace, or “No Raila, No Peace”.

    Comment by Jackson (d654e9) — 10/17/2008 @ 9:03 am

  231. Nothing Joe the plumber does changes the nature of clearwater’s threat to make the personal public, snuffy, when private citizens engage in legitimate activity he dissapproves of. In order to make them stop.

    Just like nothing about Joe the plumber’s personal history changes the Marxist nature of Obama’s response to his question.

    None of this changes the fact that the media provided the cameras for the initial exchange between Joe the plumber, the media provided the fame, and the media is exacting the price from Joe for demonstrating “false class consciousness.”

    The American Right destroys everything it touches these days

    None of this changes the fact that you are a totalitarian leftist. You are blaming the “right” for picking up on Joe the plumber’s question as an your excuse for your deliberate attempt to destroy him. Your reasoning is the same as Al Qaeda’s for their 9/11 attacks, or a kidnapper who blames the police when he is “forced” to kill one of his hostages.

    The left is now entirely in the grip of the criminal mentality. Their actions are entirely the fault of their “enemies.” “Give us what you want,” you say, “do as we demand, or whatever happens next is entirely your fault.”

    Nobody is fooled by your BS, snuggles.

    Comment by Steve (1c36b3) — 10/17/2008 @ 9:06 am

  232. the press confirmed that joe had no license, within 24 hours.

    the press has failed to confirm that Obama has a license for over a year.

    if he didn’t pass the bar, he has no license.

    Comment by mark l. (69baf1) — 10/17/2008 @ 9:11 am

  233. Clean up in Aisle 223

    Comment by JD (f7900a) — 10/17/2008 @ 9:15 am

  234. “Joe has appeared voluntarily on every right-wing news outlet you can think of.”

    snuglet – How many can you think of?

    Comment by daleyrocks (d9ec17) — 10/17/2008 @ 9:17 am

  235. sniggles – Do you like Obama’s Robin Hoodish answer to Joe of taking from tradesmen to spread the wealth around? That is the findamental question people like you keep dodging.

    Comment by daleyrocks (d9ec17) — 10/17/2008 @ 9:20 am

  236. mark l.: Looking up the Illinois attorney search at http://www.iardc.org, you can see that Barack Obama was admitted to practice in December 1991, which means that he must have passed the bar that year. However, he is currently inactive and not authorized to practice, presumably by his voluntary choice because he isn’t going to practice law while in the Senate.

    Comment by Joshua (9ede0e) — 10/17/2008 @ 9:23 am

  237. The “Kill Joe the Plumber” video on youtube is cute. Why do the Leftist have so much hate and anger?

    Comment by JD (f7900a) — 10/17/2008 @ 9:24 am

  238. sniffles – Do you actually pay taxes or are you a burden to society?

    Comment by daleyrocks (d9ec17) — 10/17/2008 @ 9:25 am

  239. Joshua – By the standards applied to Joe the Plumber, Baracky cannot claim to be an attorney.

    Comment by JD (f7900a) — 10/17/2008 @ 9:25 am

  240. the rest of America just sees him as a joke.

    Snuff Film’s continued incoherency on any topic is truly legendary – next he will explain how Joe’s really a right – wing plant by the McCain campaign. You see, they spied on Obama when he was conducting his neighborhood tour, hastily assembled Joe and his family on their front lawn, then strategically placed them so The Messiah could not help but notice them first. Rovian genius!

    Comment by Dmac (cc81d9) — 10/17/2008 @ 9:30 am

  241. Do you actually pay taxes or are you a burden to society?

    That’s a rhetorical question, yes?

    Comment by Dmac (cc81d9) — 10/17/2008 @ 9:31 am

  242. “Joe” the “Plumber” isn’t going to save McCain or any of the other losers the Republicans are running, Steve.

    Accept it.

    Comment by snuffles (677ec2) — 10/17/2008 @ 9:33 am

  243. Fascinating. Right wing blogs reporting on the activities of the goons on the Left are respponsible for the actions of the goons on the Left. Up is down. Black is white.

    \

    That was established months ago, when SEK excoriated Jeff at PW for daring to mention the left crowing over others’ misfortune.

    Comment by Rob Crawford (6c262f) — 10/17/2008 @ 9:34 am

  244. So, uhm, what’s that next box after the ballot box?

    Comment by cmblake6 (6449ac) — 10/17/2008 @ 9:37 am

  245. I don’t think plumbers eat like this so why do they need 250,000 dollars ?

    While he was at a meeting at the Waldorf-Astoria at 4 p.m. Wednesday, Michelle Obama called room service and ordered lobster hors d’oeuvres, two whole steamed lobsters, Iranian caviar and champagne, a tipster told Page Six.

    Give the money to the people who appreciate it. And know how to spend it.

    I think they call it “spreading it around.”

    Comment by Mike K (2cf494) — 10/17/2008 @ 9:41 am

  246. snuffles – Answer the questions.

    Comment by daleyrocks (d9ec17) — 10/17/2008 @ 9:48 am

  247. Here’s a vid of McCain at his absolute best, at the Al Smith dinner last night:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Goaj5V4tZoc&feature=related

    Part 2 is located on the sidebar – he was both hilarious and gracious at the same time to his opponent. Watch Obama’s and Hillary’s reactions to his speech – they seemed to honestly enjoy the performance as much as the crowd obviously did.

    Comment by Dmac (cc81d9) — 10/17/2008 @ 9:52 am

  248. daley,

    Why do Republicans still pretend that they are the party of small government?

    It’s kind of embarrassing for you guys.

    Comment by snuffles (677ec2) — 10/17/2008 @ 9:53 am

  249. Either answer the questions or put a sock in it, Snuff Film.

    Comment by Dmac (cc81d9) — 10/17/2008 @ 10:03 am

  250. Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the democrats believe every day is April 15. ~ Ronald Reagan

    Comment by ML (14488c) — 10/17/2008 @ 10:03 am

  251. Conservative Republicans believe that “the Government that Governs Least, is the Government the Governs Best!”

    Compassionate Conservatives believe that they can spend just as much money as Liberals, but spend it better.

    The Age of Compassionate Conservatism is over!

    Comment by Another Drew (7894e6) — 10/17/2008 @ 10:10 am

  252. sniffles is no different than lovie.

    Comment by JD (f7900a) — 10/17/2008 @ 10:13 am

  253. joshua-

    under the category, licensed to practice law-

    the answer for obama is NO.

    he let his license lapse, rather than pay memebrship dues?

    or did he need to pass the bar to join the association, or do they let him in with a law degree?

    he has no license, and has never held one.

    Comment by mark l. (69baf1) — 10/17/2008 @ 10:14 am

  254. Daleyrocks: “Do you like Obama’s Robin Hoodish answer to Joe of taking from tradesmen to spread the wealth around?”

    This is the question. From its inception in 1913 the income tax rate structure has always been graduated. Also, at least since the Depression, the federal government has been using some of the income tax revenues to assist the poor, thereby “spreading the wealth around.”

    I know some here would favor a flat tax and the end of all redistributive government programs like Social Security and Medicare, leaving only things like roads and defense. But I don’t perceive most here as being that emphatically libertarian; nor do I see the majority of Americans as being really opposed to our historic fundamental tax policies of progression and redistribution.

    So, as I understand, Obama is proposing to raise the marginal tax rate back to where it was before the Bush tax cuts 5 years ago (a level far below what it has typically been historically). Big whup, as far as I’m concerned. So, why is this generating such a ferocious response – castigated as marxist, socialist, communist, etc.?

    Comment by Peccator Dubius (0a6237) — 10/17/2008 @ 10:15 am

  255. “Regardless of whether or not he was a McCain plant, his questions and concerns where not expressed in good faith, his goal wasn’t to have a serious discussion about tax policies, it was simply to F**k w/ Obama and pull his chain. Comment by Peter — 10/16/2008 @ 11:45 pm”

    So, criticizing Obama’s Marxist theories of “wealth redistribution” is yanking his chain?

    Sh!t, how’s this for chain yanking:

    The fact remains that Obama’s goons are trying to make an example out of Joe for, as they like to say, ‘speaking truth to power’. His media wing pounds a plumber who asked an honest question, rather than dissecting Obama’s Marxist “I want to spread the wealth” reposnse.

    Imagine what would happen if this neo-nazi socialist ever gets into the White House.

    So much for being for the little guy.

    More chain yanking:

    Omama launched his career from the home of William Ayers and Bernadine Dohrn, and he collaborates with radical groups like ACORN under the guise of “community organizing”.

    He sat in a church for over 20 years listening to the sermons of a rabid moonbat who “god-damned” America and railed against “whitey” and Jews.

    Some of the world’s worst dictators and Islamic goons are head over heels for his campaign. So far, he’s accumulated William Ayers, Bernadine Dorhn, Hugo Chavez, Mahmoud Amahdinejad, Louis Farrakhan, Daniel Ortega, Jeremiah Wright, The Mislim Brotherhood, and Hamas among his associates, admirers, and supporters. He’s a human bug light for despots, terrorists, and hate spewers. No wonder the democrats love him.

    There are reasons for this and none of them are appealing.

    He should’nt be a U.S. Senator, let alone a presidential candidate.

    F**k Obama.

    Comment by sfcmac (7f8d36) — 10/17/2008 @ 10:16 am

  256. Comment by Peccator Dubius — 10/17/2008 @ 10:15 am

    No, I believe that The One intends to let the Bush tax reductions expire, and then he will raise rates back to where they were at the start of the Reagan Administration – cancelling the Reagan reductions without restoring the exemptions lost in the Tax Overhaul of ’86.

    Be Careful What You Wish For!

    Comment by Another Drew (7894e6) — 10/17/2008 @ 10:19 am

  257. If the Obama campaign plans to alienate anyone taxpayer in this country who has ever had trouble paying their bills, Obama is screwed.

    Comment by richard mcenroe (ed3efb) — 10/17/2008 @ 10:24 am

  258. Yes, AD, that I can understand that as a risk and a valid argument.

    Ultimately, however, I fear that no matter who is President, that they will raise taxes in the future (after the recession) because the public is not willing to give up the entitlement programs and we will have to find a way to pay for their increasing cost.

    That light at the end of the tunnel is an approaching train wreck.

    Comment by Peccator Dubius (0a6237) — 10/17/2008 @ 10:25 am

  259. #233 — Joe’s real genius was in cleverly tricking Obama to say the one thing that would hurt him most.

    This is like the plantation owner whipping his slave because the slave saw him make a fool of himself.

    Comment by richard mcenroe (ed3efb) — 10/17/2008 @ 10:26 am

  260. Yeah, right.

    Comment by love2008 (a54233) — 10/17/2008 @ 10:27 am

  261. So, as I understand, Obama is proposing to raise the marginal tax rate back to where it was before the Bush tax cuts 5 years ago (a level far below what it has typically been historically). Big whup, as far as I’m concerned. So, why is this generating such a ferocious response – castigated as marxist, socialist, communist, etc.?

    Comment by Peccator Dubius

    The high rates introduced by Roosevelt (they were de minimus before that) were counter productive but, like Obama, he didn’t care. That may be one reason why the Depression lasted 10 years. Read Amity Schlaes’ book for a preview of an Obama administration. By the time Reagan came along, the real rates had been mitigated by myriad deductions. That’s why the tax code is so complex. The real rich paid little, that’s why we have the Alternate Minimum Tax, which is now hitting the middle class. We have penalized savers and rewarded debtors for so long I wonder why anyone would wonder how we got into the financial mess we are in.

    The only people who paid the high rates before Reagan were the people with bad accountants. However, the 1986 tax reform ended a lot of the deductions. I wondered at the time how long it would take for the Democrats to get back in power and jack the rates up again.

    Comment by Mike K (2cf494) — 10/17/2008 @ 10:38 am

  262. Comment by Peccator Dubius — 10/17/2008 @ 10:15 am

    On top of which he takes the cap off payroll taxes with no concurrent increase in benefits

    Marginal rates will be close to 50%

    while sending welfare checks to the 30-40% of people who don’t pay any Fed income taxes.

    Tell me, just how hard will people work when they know they have just become slaves to people who vote to have a share of their labor without working?

    Comment by Darleen (187edc) — 10/17/2008 @ 10:59 am

  263. And besides, you know how angry and violent those Rethuglicans are…

    http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/obama-supporter-assaults-female-mccain-volunteer-in-new-york/

    Whoops. That was a Obama supporter assaulting a person with a McCain sign.

    Rare? Hmm. That’s what someone would have said if McCain had brought up something like it at the debate. But Obama can bring up the “kill him” line that the Secret Service said never happened….

    And the MSM continues to talk about that…we’ll now see how they are about the assault charges. I’m not holding my breath.

    Gotta keep the Narrative going!

    Comment by Eric Blair (2708f4) — 10/17/2008 @ 11:04 am

  264. Comment by Eric Blair — 10/17/2008 @ 11:04 am

    Rocist!

    Comment by Another Drew (7894e6) — 10/17/2008 @ 11:09 am

  265. Yeah, right.

    The Bobo cannot respond to anything in the form of a coherent manner, so it resorts to mouthing either platitudes or nonsensical retorts. Expecting anything else from a gelatinous mass of goo is foolhardy at best.

    Comment by Dmac (cc81d9) — 10/17/2008 @ 11:13 am

  266. Comment by Dmac — 10/17/2008 @ 9:30 am

    Don’t they make portable tele-prompters? Poor, poor Obama.

    Meanwhile, Michelle continues the family tradition of inndulging like ‘Republicans’ while preaching like Socialists. Still can’t get over the $8,000 luxe beach rental… or the room service lobster & caviar. Nasty, nasty woman. I think API is working hard to release that Michelle Obama phone call. Too busy today to follow much..

    Comment by Vermont Neighbor (c91cfe) — 10/17/2008 @ 11:23 am

  267. Right Eric; remember what Obama ordered his supporters to do?

    In Elko, Obama tried to anticipate his critics and called on the crowd of about 1,500 to sharpen their elbows, too.

    “I need you to go out and talk to your friends and talk to your neighbors. I want you to talk to them whether they are independent or whether they are Republican. I want you to argue with them and get in their face,” he said.

    Isn’t it funny how Obama can openly and directly incite his supporters to violent and hateful behavior without a word in protest spoken by the media — who are apparently too busy trying to turn words like “the” into a complex code to cause McCain/Palin supporters to carry out lynchings.

    Comment by North Dallas Thirty (efe6ff) — 10/17/2008 @ 11:24 am

  268. Regardless of who wins, the MSM media is either dead or silenced come January.

    Comment by Vermont Neighbor (c91cfe) — 10/17/2008 @ 11:29 am

  269. In case you have forgotten, you are all racists.

    I am off to see Gov. Palin speak this afternoon. Will try to give an update later, or from the speech, if I can get the site to load.

    Comment by JD (f7900a) — 10/17/2008 @ 11:31 am

  270. Sorry but the whole “the entire MSM except for the outlets owned by the Australian freedom fighter Rupert Murdoch are ALL attack dogs for the liberals” meme is just way too stale. No Sale.

    Its ridiculous that people in this post are sitting there calling each other facists and brownshirts, especially the ones from the party that proposed all the latest legislation weakening civil liberties in this country (Reps, Dems helped to get it passed) and that has spent the last 8 years EXPANDING on previous attempts to make the Executive branch even stronger and less under the authority of the other branches of government (Reps).

    In other words what people here are really worried about is that the OTHER guys are going to get all the power that your guys recently had.

    All these instances that people bring up of the government intimidating the little guy, like arresting protesters and journalists during political national conventions and charging them with being “terrorists” etc.etc. are NOT tied to “the left” or to “the right”. They are tied to a government who, no matter the party, only seems to agree that all of us need to be controlled more and more. Any kind of drugs? NO! Wanna protest? ONLY in the “Free Speech Zone”!, wanna get married? ONLY if you are a man and a woman! Don’t want to give up your land so that some private company can make money for themselves? NO! Yer in the way of buisness!

    “Liberal” and “Conservative” are such useful and convenient terms because they are so good at keeping people divided against each other. They are nebulous and undefined and not connected to skin color or ethnicity or religion so they are a way that people can be out and out bigots and get away with it. Attacking “lib” or “con” or “righty” or “lefty” IDEAS is not bigotry, that’s debate, but attacking the person (lefties are ALL COMMUNISTS, rightys are ALL FACISTS) is bigotry, and like most bigotry it makes us weak.

    Right now the people are weak because too many of us are calling each other names while our government siphons away our civil liberties or hacks our E-mail, or plants stories in righty or lefty (or basically MONEY)friendly media outlets to discredit annoying people. All the libs and cons need to figure out what things they AGREE they want (or want back) and push that agenda. From reading the posts here and at other sites it seems to me that what people all want is to be controlled less.

    Comment by EdWood (c2268a) — 10/17/2008 @ 11:31 am

  271. I still have all of my civil liberties. So does my family. And friends. And neighbors. And co-workers. The only people I have seen hacking emails are Dems. Planting stories – again, the Left.

    Comment by JD (f7900a) — 10/17/2008 @ 11:33 am

  272. I am off to see Gov. Palin speak this afternoon…
    JD, Don’t forget your hood.

    Comment by Another Drew (7894e6) — 10/17/2008 @ 11:34 am

  273. I will not even have to hide it. I am sure there will be someone passing them out.

    Comment by JD (f7900a) — 10/17/2008 @ 11:35 am

  274. With an imagination such as that of Ed Wood, the Left is a money-pit for an industry of psychiatrists who are only too ready to ministrate to the needs of the deluded.

    And, after they’re all found to be a danger to themselves, and others, we can ship their sorry asses off to GTMO (snicker, snicker).

    Comment by Another Drew (7894e6) — 10/17/2008 @ 11:37 am

  275. A working person or small business owner voting for ‘Hussein the Marxist’ is like a chicken voting for Col. Sanders. Hussein’s spread the wealth statement verified this as fact.

    signed:
    I am ‘Joe the Plumber’ and ‘Joe the Plumber’ is me.

    Comment by Scrapiron (6afa35) — 10/17/2008 @ 11:41 am

  276. Someone mentioned “Obama could have gone to Wall St.”, or some such, with his background.

    Well given his failure as a “community orgranizer”, maybe he should have gone to vocational school, instead:

    “We didn’t yet have the power to change state welfare policy, or create local jobs, or bring substantially more money into the schools,” [Obama] wrote. “But what we could do was begin to improve basic services at Altgeld–get the toilets fixed, the heaters working, the windows repaired.” Obama helped the residents wage a successful campaign to get the Chicago Housing Authority to promise to remove asbestos from the units; but, after an initial burst of activity, the city failed to keep its promise. (As of last year, some residences still had not been cleared of asbestos.)

    –furious

    Comment by furious (56af6d) — 10/17/2008 @ 11:54 am

  277. JD, remember to disguise your voice before yelling “terrorist.”

    Comment by CW Desiato (614aa7) — 10/17/2008 @ 11:57 am

  278. Also; don’t forget to wear your Curious George T -Shirt.

    Wacist!

    ONLY if you are a man and a woman!

    I like how ED! prefers to make his many tedious and repetitive POINTS! by HIGHLIGHTING! his screeches in BOLDFACE! Because as we all know, lefties believe that the LOUDER you SHOUT your talking point, the TRUER THEY ARE!!!!! WAY TO GO EDDIE BABY!

    Comment by Dmac (cc81d9) — 10/17/2008 @ 12:02 pm

  279. Comment by Dmac — 10/17/2008 @ 12:02 pm

    It also makes it easier to identify those points that he suffers projection with.

    Comment by Another Drew (7894e6) — 10/17/2008 @ 12:15 pm

  280. Comment by Scrapiron — 10/17/2008 @ 11:41 am

    We need T-Shirts….

    Comment by Scott Jacobs (a1c284) — 10/17/2008 @ 12:15 pm

  281. I’ve been trying to follow this, so let me check that my current understanding is correct. According to what I’ve been reading above, we now know definitively that Joe:

    - both knew about his state income tax being adjusted and intentionally did not pay it.

    - intended to stiff the hospital, even though he did pay it after all.

    - received the bills and notices of the above even though the address on the public records of the liens was not his current address

    Have I got it right?

    Comment by Douglas2 (62fec6) — 10/17/2008 @ 12:25 pm

  282. McCain made a big mistake. He should have picked Joe. He would have pulled crowd for him and made up for his lack of real-American-experience. McCain/Joe’08. They will not touch your money.

    Comment by love2008 (a54233) — 10/17/2008 @ 12:27 pm

  283. Shit flows down hill.
    Payday on Thursday.

    Ok were done with the cerebral portion of the apprenticeship program. Now for the hard part.

    Tool shopping.

    Comment by papertiger (b28aae) — 10/17/2008 @ 12:28 pm

  284. The troll shift seems to be starting. Welcome,

    Comment by Mike K (2cf494) — 10/17/2008 @ 12:32 pm

  285. The top 1% of the people paying 40% of the income taxes in this country is just not “fair” enough for progressives.

    Psyberian – Is that what you and sniffles are saying?

    Comment by daleyrocks (d9ec17) — 10/17/2008 @ 12:35 pm

  286. Yeh, I want the top 1% to pay 150% of all the taxes!
    FAIRNESS!
    IT’S FOR THE CHILDREN!

    Comment by Another Drew (7894e6) — 10/17/2008 @ 12:39 pm

  287. Have I got it right?

    I don’t know, but if so, what have you proven?

    Comment by Jim Treacher (592cb4) — 10/17/2008 @ 12:44 pm

  288. HAHA Stiff the working man SUCKERS!

    About 11 or 12 years ago, I was the foreman for a small blacktop company in Delaware. ( I still live in Delaware today) We paved good ole’ Joe the Senator’s driveway. At the time Joe explained he couldn’t afford it, so we worked out a payment plan. He was supposed to pay us 6k down then 1k a month for the next six months.

    He paid the down payment (cost of materials) but Joe never made a single payment. After about 6 or 7 months, we finally got a lawyer and threatened to take him to court. He finally got his brother to pay us the money he owed. I don’t believe we ever got the interest we asked for.

    Because of size of the company (about 5 of us) I never got my vacation pay that summer!

    True story!

    I ended my blacktop career in 99, but I’ll never forget this.

    Comment by Topsecretk9 (c4576e) — 10/17/2008 @ 12:47 pm

  289. FAIRNESS!
    IT’S FOR THE CHILDREN!

    IT’S FOR TEH PLANET

    GRANNY MCRICTUSBOTOXFACE HAS A PLANET TO SAVE!!11!

    Comment by daleyrocks (d9ec17) — 10/17/2008 @ 12:47 pm

  290. TSK9 – No wonder Lunchbucket Joe Biden doesn’t have Joe the Plumber or Joe the Paver in his neighborhood. They won’t do the work for him because they know they’ll get stiffed like Andrew Sullivan on a Saturday night.

    Comment by daleyrocks (d9ec17) — 10/17/2008 @ 12:51 pm

  291. Actually, if we set the income-tax at just taxing the top 1% of wage-earners, we would return to the system that existed at the time of the ratification of the 16th-Amendment.

    Thinking about it, that might not be too bad, would it?

    Now, if we could just get rid of that pesky FICA.

    Comment by Another Drew (7894e6) — 10/17/2008 @ 12:51 pm

  292. #124

    Eric Blair,

    You still fail to show how a presidential nominee being popular is “fascism”. In spite of what the right wing blogs and the ditto heads and the idiots like Joe the Plumber say, people are not being lied to and bamboozled or threatened and shamed into supporting Obama.

    If you want to see a real example of that, I point you to the true height of American quasi-fascism in this countries recent history and the scapegoating of Democrats in 2003, 2004 and 2005. Holding GOP dominance accountable for empirically verifiable contemptible failures, both geopolitically and domestically is not scape-goating or fascism no matter how you and the right try and spin that.

    It’s fascinating, in a perverse way the shameless duplicity and mendacity the Republican party exhales so effortlessly. They say that GOP malfeasance and threats and calling good, hard working tax paying, law abiding American’s unpatriotic for not supporting a pathetic war based on lies is “democratic” or “American exceptionalism” (ie. Talk about a euphemism for fascism and tyranny ), but a ground swell of Dem political power is liberal fascism.

    How convenient. How utterly delusional. What complete unexpurgated stinking effing Horse-shit.

    If I go to Texas or Oklahoma and put an Obama sign on my lawn and put my number up and try to hold a meeting and I get seven kinds of grief about it, and I would, is that GOP fascism?

    And you talk about academia as if that justifies your position on this, but you talk about political correctness all you want, but this is much much bigger than that and actually not even on the same page. Wars over political correctness only happen in relatively good times, like when Clinton was President. [You know, that tax and spend liberal Democrat responsible for the greatest non post war economic expansion of all time. You can say what you want about how he was at the right place at the right time, but I say it’s amazing what a president can do with a real intelligence and a real ability to understand the issues and what business requires that doesn’t just add up to more tax-breaks, more tax breaks etc….How did your 401k do back then Eric?]

    So you can call it what you want, but in a democracy, as opposed to a proto-oligarchy (and a failed one at that), it sucks to be in a party that has bankrupted itself on every conceivable metric of good leadership or national stewardship.

    So, yeah, of course Obama supporters are fascists…and yet, real brownshirt weasels like Joe the F*ckin’ Plumber is the shining paragon of what we should all aspire to as Americans: Selfish, ignorant, meretricious, arrogant, lazy, cynical bullies who are too blinkered to even know they’ve been getting screwed royally for a long time. And will continue to be screwed, yet they’re happy to do so as long as the don’t have a darkie Muslim who pals around with terrorists, in the White House.

    Obama should be challenged about his policies, as should McCain, I don’t care about that, but don’t tell me I have to sit there and think Joe the Plumber is my idea of America. Chuckle heads like Joe the Plumber don’t represent me and don’t represent what most of the people in this country aspire to. But as usual instead of appealing to what is the best in people, McCain’s convinced that throwing out these Fox sitcom parodies, like Sarah Palin and Joe the effin’ Plumber is what people will relate too. So he mentions the guy 21 times at a debate. Give me a break.

    Some people have to actually work and pay real taxes, when every dollar counts and can’t hide behind loop holes and games, so idiots like Joe the Plumber can feel like every gift given to him by a functional society, he’s earned himself. And all his failures can be blamed on the librul government. Talk about a whiner. If he really wanted that 250K business, he wouldn’t be making excuses about the government standing in his way and having to pay $900 extra dollars a year on taxes. He’s had 8 years of a GOP president and close to 10 of a GOP controlled Congress. Shouldn’t he be blaming them for his inability to get ahead and for the dismal state of the nation? No, blame the new guy who hasn’t even gotten into office yet, and might not even win. Instead of the guy who represents the party of complete failure and who repeatedly says: Why should anyone have to pay more taxes? What. The. Hell?

    The wealth does need to be spread around to the people who have lost their jobs in Ohio and Michigan and Pennsylvania and the ones who’ll be losing their jobs in the next year or so. Those people agree with Obama and understand what he’s saying. It’s just that weird dogmatic Free Market blasphemy that Republicans feel when they hear that sort of sacrilege, like saint Ronald Reagan is going to punish them or have his feelings hurt, that makes them think they have a tree to piss up with that remark by Obama.

    Meanwhile McCain’s negatives keep inching up and he keeps losing more swing states

    Comment by Peter (e70d1c) — 10/17/2008 @ 12:58 pm

  293. Being a Fascist is setting loose the goon-squads to “get in their face” to intimidate people, and stifle debate.

    Comment by Another Drew (7894e6) — 10/17/2008 @ 1:04 pm

  294. “They say that GOP malfeasance and threats and calling good, hard working tax paying, law abiding American’s unpatriotic for not supporting a pathetic war based on lies is “democratic” or “American exceptionalism” (ie. Talk about a euphemism for fascism and tyranny ), but a ground swell of Dem political power is liberal fascism”

    Peter – Could you trouble yourself to provide some actual examples of party officials doing what you allege?

    Comment by daleyrocks (d9ec17) — 10/17/2008 @ 1:04 pm

  295. people are not being lied to and bamboozled or threatened and shamed into supporting Obama

    Yes, they are.

    Comment by Darleen (187edc) — 10/17/2008 @ 1:06 pm

  296. “Obama should be challenged about his policies, as should McCain, I don’t care about that, but don’t tell me I have to sit there and think Joe the Plumber is my idea of America.”

    Peter – The media and his own party are not going to challenge Obama, Peter. Who is going to do it before the election?

    It is not shocking that Joe the Plumber is not your idea of America. You seem to have that Manhattan victim/entitlement attitude reeking from every pore.

    Comment by daleyrocks (d9ec17) — 10/17/2008 @ 1:07 pm

  297. idiots like Joe the Plumber can feel like every gift given to him by a functional society, he’s earned himself.

    Behold the immorality of the Left. Joe’s labor doesn’t belong to him, it belongs to the collective. Joe’s talents are not his own, they belong to the collective.

    Comment by Darleen (187edc) — 10/17/2008 @ 1:09 pm

  298. I think Peter gets a chubby when he writes his rants. Ewwwww.

    Comment by daleyrocks (d9ec17) — 10/17/2008 @ 1:10 pm

  299. “people are not being lied to and bamboozled or threatened and shamed into supporting Obama

    Yes, they are.”

    Don’t forget that they’re also being hoodwinked into voting for him.

    Comment by daleyrocks (d9ec17) — 10/17/2008 @ 1:12 pm

  300. Peter

    If I go to Texas or Oklahoma and put an Obama sign on my lawn and put my number up and try to hold a meeting and I get seven kinds of grief about it, and I would, is that GOP fascism?

    and I would, huh?

    Drive through almost any neighborhood in Oklahoma City and you’ll see signs from both sides up and down the streets.

    I live here in OKC. We can have differences and still respect each other.

    Write about what you know to be a fact, not some deranged fantasy.

    Don’t be a complete peckerhead.

    Comment by buckshot (c46fd2) — 10/17/2008 @ 1:14 pm

  301. But where is the wealth going to come from to spread around in Ohio and Michigan? Is Madonna going to move back to Detroit and toss out fifties in a big parade with Michael Moore, just to name two who have quite a bit of disposable income? Is she going to build a factory or a business there? Is anyone?

    Comment by Kate (e45cd6) — 10/17/2008 @ 1:21 pm

  302. #288 Darlene,

    Yes, they are.

    Examples please.

    Comment by Peter (e70d1c) — 10/17/2008 @ 1:22 pm

  303. Don’t attack the right’s sainted victim hood, Ed.

    It’s all they have left.

    Comment by snuffles (677ec2) — 10/17/2008 @ 1:23 pm

  304. Examples please.

    Now that’s funny!

    Comment by Jim Treacher (592cb4) — 10/17/2008 @ 1:24 pm

  305. Joe’s talents are not his own, they belong to the collective.

    You like to twist words around and speak in politburo announcements eh?

    I was referring to the greater society around him. His community, his state his country and all the things in it that allow him to be a waste of life probably sitting at home scratching his balls and wondering if he should pull one off to Sarah Palin, and he can do that because the reason he can’t own his own business is because of the goddamned libruls. making excuses and blaming everyone else for his stagnant life,yet the GOP tax policies could not help him could they? Hmmmm…

    Yeah, methinks this is an Grade A ass clown.

    Comment by Peter (e70d1c) — 10/17/2008 @ 1:28 pm

  306. #295 Peetr

    Start here

    here

    here

    here

    here

    But I don’t expect Peetr to understand. For him, voting for Obama is a Historical Religious Experience. When a person is involved in a destructive cult, appeals to logic, reason, reality or pointing out that their behavior is against their own interests go unheeded.

    Obamabots are cult members. Facts need not apply.

    Comment by Darleen (187edc) — 10/17/2008 @ 1:36 pm

  307. Peter

    Maybe you should just stick to what you know best, porn websites.

    Comment by ML (14488c) — 10/17/2008 @ 1:37 pm

  308. You wrongly blame the Obama campaign for digging up this information, because Joe the plumber wouldn’t be in the spotlight if John McCain hadn’t chosen to make him the focus of the debate.

    Comment by Byron (9e53cb) — 10/17/2008 @ 1:38 pm

  309. Drive through almost any neighborhood in Oklahoma City and you’ll see signs from both sides up and down the streets.

    Yeah, and how about Tulsa and the East part of the state wiseass? How many people in that far right Born again area will tolerate an Obama yard sign with a phone number on it?

    Probably get some words about it I imagine, but certainly no less than what would happen in NYC BTW and there are areas of NYC in Queens and Staten Island where you’d be in very republican areas. Anyhow, take this up with Eric, he’s the one who seems to think that any show of support for McCain is going to be met with a gestapo of righteous Obama supporters showing up at your door to re-educate you.

    (I’m in Brooklyn DR.)

    Comment by Peter (e70d1c) — 10/17/2008 @ 1:39 pm

  310. Let’s look at Peetr’s quote again

    idiots like Joe the Plumber can feel like every gift given to him by a functional society, he’s earned himself.

    Joe’s success in life is not earned, it is a GIFT. And what “society” gives him belongs to “society” and it can take it away at any time.

    And Peetr has decided that he is Joe’s superior and engages in fantasy thinking in order to dismiss Joe as a autonomous human being.

    Comment by Darleen (187edc) — 10/17/2008 @ 1:40 pm

  311. Byron,

    Does it hurt to lie that much?

    Comment by Darleen (187edc) — 10/17/2008 @ 1:41 pm

  312. ML: Maybe you should just stick to what you know best, porn websites.

    I’d like to ML, but all I get is pictures of your mommy coming up these days and, no offense, but that’s just not my thing.

    Comment by Peter (e70d1c) — 10/17/2008 @ 1:41 pm

  313. And what “society” gives him belongs to “society” and it can take it away at any time.

    The most successful people on the planet, Warren Buffet and Bill Gates, know and believe that everything they’ve been able to do and EARN in their lives is due to what the society has given them. The opportunities, the education, the people the whole totality of and through luck and hard work they’ve been able to become incredibly privileged. And they know that’s right to give back, it’s right to pay taxes, it’s right to share wealth otherwise what is it for?

    But that would be humility and wisdom and the attitude of truly gifted individuals, not the arrogant, selfish, short-sighted cynical attitude of a Joe the Plumber, who blames everyone else who’s not like him, for his own inability to do better in life. And that would be the attitude of a great many Republicans and libertarians, who can’t even parse that great wealth of any kind comes with great generosity of spirit and humility.

    Enough with Joe the Plumber and your Marxism 101 proclaimations lady. You’re making a fool of yourself.

    Comment by Peter (e70d1c) — 10/17/2008 @ 1:50 pm

  314. Darleen manages to drive without going on government-built roads, uses solar power instead of power from a government-built dam, relies on private police and fire departments, not the ones paid for by the government, etc.

    She is amazing.

    Comment by snuffles (677ec2) — 10/17/2008 @ 1:54 pm

  315. Dmac- “Because as we all know, lefties believe that the LOUDER you SHOUT your talking point, the TRUER THEY ARE!!!!!”

    Thank you for providing an excellent example of my point on mindless “lefty” “righty” bigotry. I knew I could rely on you.

    Comment by EdWood (c2268a) — 10/17/2008 @ 1:57 pm

  316. Peter,

    You first appeared in this thread in comment 40 and IMO you’ve repeatedly engaged in gratuitous insults (and please note I have no problem with your last comment, #305). Let me make myself clear: I don’t care who you support or what you believe, but either you discuss topics without gratuitous attacks from this point on or I’ll recommend to Patterico that you go back into moderation. And since I’m the one who asked that you be let out of moderation, there’s a good chance you won’t come out again.

    I encourage others to do the same.

    Comment by DRJ (c953ab) — 10/17/2008 @ 1:57 pm

  317. Wow, his mother must be an incredibly attractive female – kudos to you, sir!

    and think Joe the Plumber is my idea of America.

    Peter, why don’t you take a trip at least 300 miles away from your little sinkhole, and attempt to understand all those evil and nasty folks who reside in fly – over country. Somehow, even my neighbors here (who are all big – time Obamamaniacs) would indentify quite a bit more with the plumber than with some screechy radical lefty suckling at the gov’t teat for his sustenance. Obama’s from Hyde Park, which for the rest of the city might as well be on Mars.

    Comment by Dmac (cc81d9) — 10/17/2008 @ 1:58 pm

  318. I knew I could rely on you.

    Eddy’s got quite a problem with reading = comprehension. But let’s not spoil the fun, lest he figure out how much he beclowns himself further with each posting.

    Comment by Dmac (cc81d9) — 10/17/2008 @ 2:00 pm

  319. Peetr and snuffles are unclear (deliberately so) on the differences between a society built on individual rights and one built on collective rights.

    Scratch a leftist, find an authoritarian collectivist.

    Comment by Darleen (187edc) — 10/17/2008 @ 2:02 pm

  320. Peter

    You’re making a fool of yourself.

    I didn’t think your really smart enough to see how ironic that statement is.

    But nonetheless, you make a great poster “child” for the liberal left.

    Comment by ML (14488c) — 10/17/2008 @ 2:02 pm

  321. Peter – I don’t think that phrase “society has given them” in the context of Buffet and Gates means the same thing in Obama’s United States, where he has a problem with the concept of private property. Senator Government wants to spread the wealth around, that’s what socialists do. It’s all about equality of outcomes. Buffet and Gates are all about equality of opportunity.

    Comment by daleyrocks (d9ec17) — 10/17/2008 @ 2:02 pm

  322. Jim Treacher:
    “what have you proven?”

    I’ve proven (to my own satisfaction) that for each of the points I raised we either didn’t know the answer or that the opposite was true, but I had to search lot’s of other blogs and news reports sifting through the echo chorus to do so. Perhaps we need someone to start compiling and cataloging myths and rumors about “Joe the Plumber”. I’m not volunteering, if asking “Is this (that someone asserted) true?” gets me labelled a troll.

    Comment by Douglas2 (62fec6) — 10/17/2008 @ 2:05 pm

  323. What makes you an expert on authoritarian societies, Darleen?

    Have you ever lived outside the government-built paradise of California?

    I doubt it.

    Comment by snuffles (677ec2) — 10/17/2008 @ 2:05 pm

  324. Peter, the Obama class warfare supporter from Brooklyn, considers Joe the Plumber’s life a waste. Nicely done! The elite bicoastal snobs of the democratic party strike again! Ordinary Americans salute you.

    Comment by daleyrocks (d9ec17) — 10/17/2008 @ 2:06 pm

  325. America may not be great, but the elite of the Democratic party certainly are. Just ask them. Oh Peter? Tell us about your superiority.

    Comment by daleyrocks (d9ec17) — 10/17/2008 @ 2:08 pm

  326. daley

    Unfortunately the extreme wealthy have a tendency to support authoritarian regimes (as Hollywood celebs are supporting Obama)

    why? Because they know their own wealth is safe and socialist policies will keep competition down. Can’t have the uppity Joe the Plumber, Joe the programmer, Joe the med student get the idea they might climb that ladder of success and challenge ‘em.

    Comment by Darleen (187edc) — 10/17/2008 @ 2:08 pm

  327. Darleen – They need somebody to serve them their tea time lobster and Iranian caviar at the Waldorf. As long as the riff raff stays at a safe distance the Democratic hoi poloi are OK. They know somebody who knows some ordinary Americans.

    Comment by daleyrocks (d9ec17) — 10/17/2008 @ 2:11 pm

  328. Darleen – Shouldn’t it be spelled Piotr intead of Peter?

    Comment by daleyrocks (d9ec17) — 10/17/2008 @ 2:14 pm

  329. CA is not some “government-built paradise” but is slowly becoming a government destroyed paradise.

    The paradise of CA was built by hard-working men and women who wanted to better themselves, and leave something for their children that they themselves did not have. This state was built in a pay-as-you-go manner, with a minimum of long-term indebtedness. Now, we sell bonds to fund the operating costs of a wastrel.

    As CA government has grown and become more intrusive in our lives, it has made it more difficult to accomplish those goals, while we see it ignore the infrastructure needs of a growing population, and the repairs of the existing infrastructure to maintain the current level of service (which is declining).

    I am always surprised by those on the Left who believe that a society where gov’t provides all is such a paradise, yet when called by their country to “Serve and Protect”, run like hell from just such a government provided life.

    Comment by Another Drew (7894e6) — 10/17/2008 @ 2:22 pm

  330. Good point, Another Drew. The government is the answer for all of those poor souls who are too lazy to help themselves. But heaven forbid that Obama or any of his leftist illuminati cronies should have to serve our country! He would be running for Kenya where he was really born in a heartbeat.

    Comment by Jeff (3396e6) — 10/17/2008 @ 2:29 pm

  331. Another Drew

    I was born and raised in Los Angeles and still live and work in the So Cal area.

    This state will soon be the very rich and the very poor … middleclass and businesses are being chased out of the state.

    Comment by Darleen (187edc) — 10/17/2008 @ 2:30 pm

  332. Peter

    At least my mom hasn’t graced the cover of hairy backs & mustaches a record number of times.

    In other words, you can my mom and dad apart just by looks.

    Comment by ML (14488c) — 10/17/2008 @ 2:34 pm

  333. At least California is a right to work state… but anyway, snuffles…

    in #306 you give several examples…. which ones of those examples are paid for exclusively with federal income tax generated funds?

    Or better yet, which ones got no federal funds generated by the income tax at all over the last ten years?

    Comment by SteveG (71dc6f) — 10/17/2008 @ 2:36 pm

  334. “This state will soon be the very rich and the very poor … middleclass and businesses are being chased out of the state.”

    Darleen – Oh Noes! Not Commiefornia!

    Comment by daleyrocks (d9ec17) — 10/17/2008 @ 2:38 pm

  335. “This state will soon be the very rich and the very poor … middleclass and businesses are being chased out of the state.”

    At that point we should give it back to Mexico, along with its debt. It will be a Spanish speaking state anyway by then.

    Comment by daleyrocks (d9ec17) — 10/17/2008 @ 2:43 pm

  336. No, CA is not a “Right To Work” state; that issue was decided in 1958 by initiative, or referendum!
    It is however, an “at will” state.

    Darleen – Didn’t we meet at the Capt Ed lunch a few years back?
    It is where I met our Host.

    Comment by Another Drew (7894e6) — 10/17/2008 @ 2:44 pm

  337. Another Drew

    I believe we did. :-) It’s been a while for one of those luncheons.

    I attended the Palin Rally in Carson a couple of weeks ago with Baldilocks and Miss Attila …afterwards we stopped off at a local restaurant to drink for discussion and were joined by Ace, one his minions and our Host.

    Comment by Darleen (187edc) — 10/17/2008 @ 2:51 pm

  338. Comment by Darleen — 10/17/2008 @ 2:51 pm

    I should get out more.

    Didn’t JD say he was coming out to this area a few days back?
    Perhaps we need another “Round Table”?

    Comment by Another Drew (7894e6) — 10/17/2008 @ 3:03 pm

  339. I have a question for the libs who view Joe the Plumber as nothing more than working-class scum:

    What do y’all think of the folks who live in government housing and spend half of their time avoiding gainful employment, and the other half producing children that they cannot and/or will not support? (Although it may be considered bad manners – or worse – to point this out, numerous polls have indicated that a significant percentage of these deadbeats are Obama supporters.)

    I’m being serious. Despite any tax-related problems he might have, Joe does appear to be trying to support himself. Isn’t that a good thing?

    So, I’d like to know what the libs think about the folks who make absolutely no effort to support themselves or their families.

    Comment by Bubba Maximus (456175) — 10/17/2008 @ 3:28 pm

  340. What makes you an expert on authoritarian societies, Darleen?

    And what makes you an expert on anything? Time to tell us all exacty whatever the heck you allegedly are, specifically –

    - gender
    - married/single
    - age
    - career
    - educational level
    - geographic location

    BTW, any responses that indicate extremely counter – intuitive lifestyles in comparison with your prior postings (i.e. owning multiple businesses, huge family that all happen to be quite wealthy, multiple PHD’s etc.) will be met with an appropriate amount of skepticism. We’ve already dealt with poseurs here numerous times, so spare us the theatrics.

    Comment by Dmac (cc81d9) — 10/17/2008 @ 3:30 pm

  341. Peter writes:

    “…You still fail to show how a presidential nominee being popular is “fascism”. …”

    Oh, dear Lord. Is this guy still not getting the point?

    I think he should do the experiment. Of course, someone might take his McCain sign and hit him in the face with it, like just happened in NYC.

    But no worries. Some reporter will claim to have heard death threats during a Palin rally, and the MSM will carry on about it for days. Of course, the Secret Service found no evidence for such a threat, despite Obama talking about it during the debate.

    The Narrative, uber alles.

    Still, why argue when you can try the experiment? You should blog about it, with photos. Call it “Right Like Me.” You might even get it published—if nothing happens to you, you could get it published in Salon. If you get roughed up, The Weekly Standard.

    Either way, you get paid.

    Why not give it a try instead of being obtuse and trollish?

    DRJ, sorry if I am stirring things up. But the flexible yardstick the Left has shown on this topic (the Palin Derangement Syndrome is incredible) is aggravating to me.

    Comment by Eric Blair (2708f4) — 10/17/2008 @ 4:01 pm

  342. An American citizen should be able to ask Obama
    a question, without being crucified by the Obama campaign.
    Obama is ahead in the polls, but are the polls
    a realistic reflection of what will actually happen
    in the voting booth? Obama is outspending McCain
    3 to one … He has 90% of the media in his pocket
    … he has 98% of the black vote … he has voter fraud
    on his side, with groups like Acorn … and yet the
    election is still close. So far, all the conclusions by all the
    pundits are totally based upon POLLS. Not a single actual vote
    has been cast yet. Obama supporters gush at how
    well their man has done in the debates, which proves
    once again that Obama is a good debater and a good
    speaker. It doesn’t say anything about his character,
    judgement, or what kind of a leader he would be.
    I still would rather trust a man who would not sell out
    his fellow prisoners, even during 5 years of torture,
    than to trust a man who betrayed a 20 year friendship,
    for personal ambition. And … regarding this election,
    until people actually vote … it ain’t over till it’s over

    Comment by HOWARD (f14f31) — 10/17/2008 @ 4:05 pm

  343. Wurzelbacher’s real situation is important because you can always make up a hypothetical situation to counter any arguement.

    For example, I am a medical resident. I make $55K a year. I can hypothetically say I’m getting ready to buy medical imaging center or that I make $250K a year and a particular tax policy is going to hurt me. However, there is not one medical resident in America that is making even $100K nor one who is able to buy a medical imaging center without other mitigating factors, such as being independently wealthy. The tax plan will make someone like that pay more taxes but not one really exists in America.

    When you ask, ‘Is plan A going to hurt me’, you need to use real facts otherwise you’re not really being hurt.

    Comment by Dakine (deccf3) — 10/17/2008 @ 4:32 pm

  344. Dakine-

    Is there anyone in America making less than $250,00 a year now who is looking to make the next level on the corporate ladder, or buy into the practice they’ve been at for 5 years? If so, Obama’s answer is his answer. Joe did not present an impossible hypothetical, but a very real situation, whether it applied to him or not. The press is always asking questions that do not necessarily apply to themselves.

    The issue is Obama was asked a question that caught him on a moment his guard was down and he spoke out of his convictions. If someone likes his conviction on wealth redistribution, then they will vote for him. If someone doesn’t like his policy, they won’t vote for him. Simple as that.

    And to be disagree with Obama’s position is not to necessarily be uncaring. Some (many) prefer to be generous in helping others by means that don’t include losing a large part of your “contribution” to bureaucratic costs for programs that don’t work.

    If Obama wants to say he misspoke and rephrase what he “meant to say” then let him do it. The things that shouldn’t be done are:
    1. Don’t harass Joe as if he is a new intern on the team of the orneriest surgeon on staff;
    and 2. Don’t claim on national TV that you told Joe something that is not on the video.

    Comment by MD in Philly (3d3f72) — 10/17/2008 @ 4:48 pm

  345. I am an undecided voter. That is, until this Joe the Plumber story broke. At first I was stunned to hear Obama’s response about “spreading the wealth.” Then I became angry at the manner with which his campaign continues to discredit, humiliate, and belittle this Joe the Plumber. I am now livid with rage at how Obama has directed his campaign in its final stages: cut down, annihilate, exterminate anyone and anything who/that gets in their way. I, for one, will assuage my rage by voting for McCain. And to all the bitter men and women out there who are clinging to their self-respect, go ahead and use the power of your vote to defeat Barry the Pretender. The ACORN/Obama Machine may well outnumber us, but we would have proven a point nonetheless. Actually, McCain might just win. Call this last minute jitters or the Obama Effect.

    Comment by Megan (c949f7) — 10/17/2008 @ 5:21 pm

  346. How Obama Applies Alinsky’s RulesBy INVESTOR’S BUSINESS DAILY | Posted Monday, September 22, 2008 4:20 PM PT Election ’08: Barack Obama’s mocking of John McCain, while urging his followers to “get in their face,” are tactics right out of his radical hero Saul Alinsky’s playbook: ridicule and agitation.At a recent Las Vegas rally, Obama poked fun at Sen. McCain for what he described as bragging about “how as chairman of the Senate Commerce Committee, he had oversight of every part of the economy.”"Well, all I can say to Sen. McCain is, ‘Nice job. Nice job,’ ” Obama said in a sarcastic tone. “Where is he getting these lines? It’s like a ‘Saturday Night Live’ routine.”Then he belittled the 72-year-old McCain for vowing to take on the old boys network. “In the McCain campaign, that’s called a staff meeting,” he sneered.The late Alinsky, a trench-warfare socialist who despised American capitalism, advised community organizers like Obama to “laugh at the enemy” to provoke “irrational anger.”"Ridicule,” he said, “is man’s most potent weapon. It is almost impossible to counterattack ridicule. Also it infuriates the opposition, who then react to your advantage.”At another rally in Nevada, Obama called on the crowd of about 1,500 to join him in sharpening their elbows against McCain and his supporters. “I want you argue with them and get in their face,” he said, in a naked attempt to “fan hostilities” in the tightening race, something Alinsky also advised from his bag of agitation tricks.Obama doesn’t look or talk like an angry radical. He speaks in measured tones and is rarely seen out of business attire. That, too, is borrowed from Alinsky’s playbook. “Don’t scare” the middle class, he guides urban revolutionaries in his 1970s manual, “Rules for Radicals” (which he dedicated to mankind’s “first radical, Lucifer”).Instead, look like them, talk like them, act like them.And work for radical change from the inside — “like a spy behind enemy lines,” as Obama said in his first memoir. He wrote it before entering politics, while still working with hard-left Alinsky groups and training street agitators known as “community organizers.” As he wrote, he became a community organizer in 1983 because of “The need for change. Change in the White House, where Reagan and his minions were carrying on their dirty deeds.”That’s when he set out to “organize black folks” for social revolution, first in Harlem, then the South Side of Chicago. Now he wants to do it on a “large scale.” Though most average voters wouldn’t know it, he’s applying Alinsky’s radical rules to achieve his goal.Alinksy stressed that his rules be translated into real-life tactics responsive to the situation at hand — which right now happens to be something he never could have dreamed of: a disciple who would find himself in a viable battle for the most powerful job in the world.Obama has already translated several of Alinsky’s rules into battle tactics, including:• Rule: “Rub raw the resentments of the people; search out controversy and issues.” In the mortgage meltdown, for instance, Obama vows to prosecute “predatory lenders” for “abusing” minority borrowers. He’s also stoking class resentment by painting Wall Street and other executives as villains.• Rule: “Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it.” In an ad to woo Hispanic voters, Obama demonized Rush Limbaugh by falsely claiming he made racist statements against immigrants.• Rule: “A mass impression can be lasting and intimidating.” This explains why Obama moved his acceptance speech to a football stadium and bussed in 85,000 supporters. Alinsky’s son was so impressed, he praised Obama for learning his father’s “lesson well.”• Rule: “Multiple issues mean constant action and life” for the cause. This is why Obama never harps on one issue, as Hillary did with health care. His platform is packed with grievances from “economic justice” to “reproductive justice” to “environmental justice.”Obama is following almost to the letter the blueprint for socialist revolution drafted by the father of community organizing. While Alinsky may help him behind the scenes, however, he becomes a liability when brought out of the shadows. Sarah Palin proved this in St. Paul when she ridiculed his community organizing. Within hours, Obama surrogates whined about how just bringing up the phrase was racist code for “black.”No, it’s code for communist. And McCain should make that point instead of legitimizing such radicalism, as he did recently when he said, “I respect community organizers; and Sen. Obama’s record there is outstanding” — which contradicted his running mate.There’s nothing to respect about such anti-American radicals, even if they have traded their tie-dye for business ties.

    Comment by Debbie (d654e9) — 10/17/2008 @ 6:58 pm

  347. . It is true and part of a misinformation plan is to make the truth look paranoid. Just look around and see the media and DNC parroting the party line. The Christian Religion is evil. Homosexual is normal. Patriotism evil. Rebellion and changing the Constitution normal. Disarm the citizens normal. NRA and hunters evil. The Military and heroes evil. Anti military and ridicule heroes normal. Success and hard work evil. The government owes me normal. Shocking this is right out of the handbook of communist and Islamic terrorism guides to revolution and over throwing a country.. Schools teach the government is evil and socialism utopia normal. Divide the races through agitators and media. Destroy marriage and the families. The state is the parent. Call evil good and smear and destroy good. Look at the Hollywood crowd. McCarthy was right and history has proven it. They flock around dictators and tyrants Chavez, Castro, Iranian, and Syrians. Wake up and vote for McCain if you want freedom. After 40 years of Intelligence service I can just say look and watch. Look at Obama’s friend’s Islamic terror operatives. Rev. Wright preacher of Racist William Ayers radical terrorist. Farakhan. Research the hidden years at Columbia University. Also the overseas trips. Victor Marchenco, Ivan Scholos, Gory Machlinsos. Fhaad Hussan these are a few of the KGB friends who financed and open doors here through contacts. I am not long for this earth. A Terminal Sickness has attached to me. I want to warn my beloved country.

    Comment by General Langly (d654e9) — 10/17/2008 @ 7:00 pm

  348. A Messiah Manufactured by Marxism
    Proof is in the Public Record.
    “The public record is our only proof,” says former Naval Intelligence Officer Marion Valentine.
    “In 1963, while serving in Navy Intelligence (1958-1967), I read the FBI file on Frank Marshall Davis. He had outlined the Communist plan to take over America from within, by installing educators at all levels of our educational system, gaining control of the media, getting Liberal judges appointed, recruiting, training and backing people to be elected to public office.
    “I have researched every piece of legislation I can find that the Liberal Democrats have passed since the early sixties, and if you will research for yourself, you will find that they have been slowly moving this country toward Socialism.
    “When Obama announced he was running for President as an unknown with only one major speech at the DNC (that the DNC and MSM made so much fuss over), he aroused my old intel suspicions. So I started researching.
    “I have not found any evidence to convince me he is a Muslim, bur I did find his radical associations were unusual. I found Frank Marshall Davis, who had fled from Chicago to Hawaii when Obama was 12 years old, was Obama’s mentor from then till Davis died in 1987.
    “Davis put Obama in touch with the Socialist Party in Chicago (called the New Party) which Ayers is also a member of, (emphasis added) therefore the first “Planned” contact with Ayers. The New Party helped launch and finance Obama’s political career. Obama…selected, trained, groomed and scripted to become the “puppet” leader of the United Socialist States of America.

    Comment by General Langly (d654e9) — 10/17/2008 @ 7:06 pm

  349. I’m an idiot….. too.

    “at will” Banging head into wall

    then there was my request of snuffles… #313 not #306 hmmmmmm

    things seem to be going downhill

    Comment by SteveG (71dc6f) — 10/17/2008 @ 7:13 pm

  350. OBAMA IS A MARXIST SOCIALIST.
    AMERICAN SOLDIERS FOUGHT AND DIED AND SHED BLOOD FIGHTING MARXIST. WE WILL NOT ALLOW IT HERE. OBAMA GAVE ACORN OVER A MILLION DOLLARS TO STEAL YOUR VOTES. WITH THE STOLEN VOTES HE THEN CAN HAVE A SUPER MAJORITY IN THE SENATE AND HOUSE (VETO PROOF) HUSSAIN OBAMA’S PLAN IS TO STRIP YOU OF YOUR FREEDOM, RELIGON AND YOUR BELONGINGS! THEN HE WILL GIVE IT TO HIS MARXIST SOCIALIST FOLLOWERS. HE THEN BECOMES YOUR MARXIST EMPEROR! THIS IS WITH OUT A SHOT BEING FIRED.

    Comment by General Langly (228dd9) — 10/18/2008 @ 4:57 pm

  351. The Simonization of Barack Obama
    Savage Politics ^ | September 3, 2008 | M. Corrigan
    Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2008 15:56:14 by 2ndDivisionVet
    simonize |?s?m??n?z| verb [ trans. ] polish (a motor vehicle). ORIGIN 1930s: from the proprietary name Simoniz + -ize .
    Sitting on the sidelines, I have watched the unfol 10f8 ding drama of this presidential election. There has been a simonizing of Barack Obama that has been breathtaking to watch. Where has the mainstream press been to examine all the unanswered questions and events that have arisen? Any reporter’s career might be made by investigating anything that is contained in this article.
    A great story could be found in the nauseating treatment of HRC by the DNC, media and Democratic Party. A story could catch on about the failed POTUS candidates, who sprang to support Obama and malign Hillary because of their jealousy. An expose’ could be written about the deep under current of misogyny, and sexism that promoted an unqualified candidate. A morality tale could be told about loyalty, truth, and courage which are dismissed because officials covet a piece of the power pie. However, there are more important and compelling questions that should be deeply investigated about Obama by mainstream media:
    Questionable relationships- Ayers, Qdinga, Khalidi, al-Mansour, Farrakhan, Rezko, Auchi, Wright, Pfleger.
    Possible Nefarious Behavior- Annenburg Project failure with the money improprieties.
    Racism- Michelle Obama/Farrakhan “Whitey Tape” speculation.
    Campaign Big Money-Obama Campaign’s true money sources.
    Fabrication- the great uncle of WWII
    Historic Gaffs- Obama’s lack of understanding of historical events
    Primary Double-Dealing- Caucus Fraud, Super Delegate and delegate threats and payoffs, Manipulation of the DNC Roll Call, Threats and intimidation by campaign thugs.
    Murders- Bill Gwatney and Gay Choir Director of Trinity Baptist, Donald Young.
    Undisclosed Meeting- Brazile/Rove.
    Non-transparency about records- tax, State Senate, law firm, law practice client list, legislative accomplishments, small donar’s/fundraiser’s/bundler’s figures.
    Personal non-transparency- birth. baptism, medical, Selective Service, Occidental/Columbia/Harvard records, Columbia thesis paper, University of Chicago scholarly articles, published Harvard Law Review Articles, Obama’s Wall Street work.
    Obama has received passes from the mainstream media (MSM) about “backroom remarks” such as Canada/NAFTA, Teamsters/Ear of the President and most recently Biden’s “behind the scenes” remark that Israel should accept that Iran will have nuclear weapons, which now he denies.
    MSM continues to lightly gloss over words and actions that should signal a bright red flag. There was Obama’s frightening non-connection to the Georgian situation. Also, Obama’s policy shifts, regardless of what they are, should give pause, as to what he stands for and the media should have called attention and explained these following reversals:
    opting out of public campaign financing, revising Iraq withdrawal plans, voting against the death penalty in child rape cases, reversal on hand gun bans, voting for FISA, reversal on NAFTA, and lifting the ban on off-shore drilling.
    The press has enabled Obama’s evasive tactics, so that the public projects a reflection of whatever they dream about him.
    The media’s decline began in the Bush Administration, cheerleading for a trumped-up war and rubber stamping, as unpatriotic, those that questioned the war. And so it continues as the lazy/paid-off press has refused to vet Barack Obama and has enabled big money to simonize Barack Obama. I have watched this dazzling spin of which many of my friends and family are victims because they have no real sources of information, The truth about Barack Obama has been insulated from the general public by mainstream media by perpetuating a polished image and this could “polish off” the very foundation of our Democracy

    Comment by General Langly (228dd9) — 10/18/2008 @ 5:06 pm

  352. __________________________________________

    The following is enough reason for me to doubt a lot of what Obama is all about:

    “The arguments of liberals are more often grounded in reason and fact,” the Illinois Democrat wrote in “The Audacity of Hope,” a memoir published last year. “Much of what I absorbed from the sixties was filtered through my mother, who to the end of her life would proudly proclaim herself an unreconstructed liberal.”

    Obama has a 95 percent liberal rating from Americans for Democratic Reform, a liberal advocacy group that ranks all members of Congress.

    If a majority of Americans mark their ballot for “Obama,” then they’re not only fools, but they’re running the risk of the United States becoming the world’s biggest Banana Republic, a society closer in philosophy and empty spirit to the aimless, feckless, leftist-dominated nations of South or Central America, Southeast Asia, Africa, the Carribean. Or a North American version of France:

    George F. Will, August 26, 2007

    France’s unemployment rate has not been below 8 percent in 25 years — not since 1982, when Francois Mitterrand inadvertently did what Thatcher intentionally did: killed socialism. Elected president in 1981 promising a “rupture with capitalism,” he kept that promise pitilessly. He had the broadest program of nationalizations ever proposed for a free economy; he increased pensions, family allowances, housing allowances and the minimum wage. The franc was devalued three times, and soon he was forced to adopt “socialist rigor” (austerity).

    French leftism is perfectly reactionary. Wielding a word with semi-sacred connotations in France, socialists say they are “the resistance.” They are not for anything; they are against surrendering any of their entitlements.

    One in four French workers is employed in the public sector, which devours 54 percent of GDP. (The U.S. percentage is about 34.) The fact that for 15 years France’s GDP and output per hour worked have been declining relative to those of Britain and the United States surely is related to the fact that 60 percent of the French respond positively to the word “bureaucrat.”
    __________________________________________

    Comment by Mark (201a52) — 10/18/2008 @ 5:09 pm

  353. Mitterand also created some great real estate bargains in France. Several friends of mine bought vacation homes there as the wealthy and near-wealthy fled the proposed “wealth tax” planned by Mitterand. I suspect that Obama may grow more radical as his plans cause a prolonged economic decline. It will be too late for many and I think him capable of using the power of the presidency to punish his enemies, like talk radio and even right wing think tanks. For decades, black churches have violated the “establishment clause” by engaging in clear electioneering yet no one says anything. Obama will see to it that any tax exempt entity that resists his plans will pay the price. I expect the first test will be churches that resist gay weddings.

    I don’t think it is worth the effort to try to debate with people like Peter because they are spouting talking points, not ideas.

    I am in the process of shifting from California, which I think is doomed to look like Guadalajara in another 10 years. Rich, gated enclaves surrounded by barrios. The state cannot keep up the spending and the state bonds will soon be junk status, Too bad I waited until my youngest daughter graduated from high school to sell my California house. Now it will be a couple of years, and maybe more if Obama wins the election, to get out with a reasonable price for it.

    If I were single, I would be heading for an interior state like Arkansas or another similar state without a big blue city. I know quite a few people who are doing so. It may be a rough decade.

    Comment by Mike K (d8deba) — 10/18/2008 @ 5:30 pm

  354. This was a message from a highly decorated and one of the most respected intellegence agents in the world. His last warning words to his beloved country before he died last month.
    Remember what I said. It is true and part of a misinformation plan is to make the truth look paranoid. Just look around and see the media and DNC parroting the party line. The Christian Religion is evil. Homosexual is normal. Patriotism evil. Rebellion and changing the Constitution normal. Disarm the citizens normal. NRA and hunters evil. The Military and heroes evil. Anti military and ridicule heroes normal. Success and hard work evil. The government owes me normal. Shocking this is right out of the handbook of communist and Islamic terrorism guides to revolution and over throwing a country.. Schools teach the government is evil and socialism utopia normal. Divide the races through agitators and media. Destroy marriage and the families. The state is the parent. Call evil good and smear and destroy good. Look at the Hollywood crowd. McCarthy was right and history has proven it. They flock around dictators and tyrants Chavez, Castro, Iranian, and Syrians. Wake up and vote for McCain if you want freedom. After 40 years of Intelligence service I can just say look and watch. Look at Obama’s friend’s Islamic Marxists terror operatives. Rev. Wright Marxist preacher of Racist Hate and division. William Ayers Marxist radical terrorist. Farakhan Muslim Marxist. Research the hidden years at Columbia University. Also the overseas trips. Victor Marchenco, Mohamud Kioj, Sayad Kael, Fhaad Hussan these are a few of the Islamic and KGB friends who financed and open doors here through contacts. I am not long for this earth. A Terminal Sickness has attached to me. I want to warn my beloved country.

    Comment by General Langly (228dd9) — 10/18/2008 @ 5:31 pm

  355. This was a message from a highly decorated and one of the most respected intellegence agents in the world. His last warning words to his beloved country before he died last month.
    Remember what I said. It is true and part of a misinformation plan is to make the truth look paranoid. Just look around and see the media and DNC parroting the party line. The Christian Religion is evil. Homosexual is normal. Patriotism evil. Rebellion and changing the Constitution normal. Disarm the citizens normal. NRA and hunters evil. The Military and heroes evil. Anti military and ridicule heroes normal. Success and hard work evil. The government owes me normal. Shocking this is right out of the handbook of communist and Islamic terrorism guides to revolution and over throwing a country.. Schools teach the government is evil and socialism utopia normal. Divide the races through agitators and media. Destroy marriage and the families. The state is the parent. Call evil good and smear and destroy good. Look at the Hollywood crowd. McCarthy was right and history has proven it. They flock around dictators and tyrants Chavez, Castro, Iranian, and Syrians. Wake up and vote for McCain if you want freedom. After 40 years of Intelligence service I can just say look and watch. Look at Obama’s friend’s Islamic Marxists terror operatives. Rev. Wright Marxist preacher of Racist Hate and division. William Ayers Marxist radical terrorist. Farakhan Muslim Marxist. Research the hidden years at Columbia University. Also the overseas trips. Victor Marchenco, Mohamud Kioj, Sayad Kael, Fhaad Hussan these are a few of the Islamic and KGB friends who financed and open doors here through contacts. I am not long for this earth. A Terminal Sickness has attached to me. I want to warn my beloved country.

    Comment by Percy (228dd9) — 10/18/2008 @ 5:44 pm

  356. Walls, and walls, of text….

    There must be quite a few un-employed screenwriters on-line who have run out of gin to drink…

    You know, someone might read that crap if any of you knew how to make a point in less than fifty words.

    Comment by Another Drew (703fa8) — 10/18/2008 @ 7:03 pm

  357. I doubt if any individuals practicing journalism have licenses

    Perhaps because bad practices in journalism do not kill people (except when done by Judith Miller….)

    “As a note of warning, most people completely underestimate the need for proper plumbing venting. If only for this reason, it is extremely important to hire only licensed plumbers; faulty vent systems can cause illnesses in building occupants.”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plumbing_drainage_venting#Purpose

    Comment by jollyroger (5db97d) — 10/19/2008 @ 2:35 am

  358. DENVER (AP) – Denver Roman Catholic Archbishop Charles Chaput labeled Barack Obama the “most committed” abortion-rights candidate from a major party in 35 years while accusing a Catholic Obama ally and other Democratic-friendly Catholic groups of doing a “disservice to the church.”

    Chaput, one of the nation’s most politically outspoken Catholic prelates, delivered the remarks Friday night at a dinner of a Catholic women’s group.

    His comments were among the sharpest in a debate over abortion and Catholic political responsibility in a campaign in which Catholics represent a key swing vote.

    While Chaput has won praise from traditionalist Catholics for stressing opposition to abortion as a foundational voting issue, voices on the Catholic left have sought to apply church teachings to war, poverty, the environment and other issues.

    Although the Catholic left is not new, several advocacy groups have either formed or ramped up activities since 2004. Partly, their efforts are a response to attention given to the pro-abortion rights stance of Democrat John Kerry, a Catholic who was criticized by a few bishops who suggested he should be denied or refrain from Communion.

    Chaput, without getting into much detail, called Obama the “most committed” abortion-rights major-party presidential candidate since the landmark Roe v. Wade decision on abortion in 1973.

    “To suggest – as some Catholics do – that Senator Obama is this year’s ‘real’ pro-life candidate requires a peculiar kind of self-hypnosis, or moral confusion, or worse,” Chaput said according to his prepared remarks, titled “Little Murders.”

    Comment by Percy (228dd9) — 10/19/2008 @ 8:07 am

  359. 357 Yeah, that’s the ticket. Obamalamadingdong dipeffingwad is real pro-life. Victim of partial born abortion survives for the moment as Barry Hussein gives his blessing to abandoning the baby by dumping in a basket and offering NO help..just let the sucker croak. He said he didn’t want his own daughters to be punished with pregnancy. One hopes that his Chicago line dies out then. Pity his own hippie freak mom didn’t abort his own evil-ass life way back when.There should be a special hell for lying sacks of shite like the big Nada.

    Comment by madmax333 (0c6cfc) — 10/19/2008 @ 8:13 am

  360. A Terminal Sickness has attached to me.

    ??

    [Did Free Republic go down or something?? Ha, ha....]

    Comment by Peter (e70d1c) — 10/19/2008 @ 9:28 am

  361. Okie dokie, DRJ.

    I know you have a higher standard for the more sane participants. Thanks for getting me out of moderation. I’ll do my best to play nice.

    Comment by Peter (e70d1c) — 10/19/2008 @ 9:31 am

  362. I give it three weeks.

    Comment by Scott Jacobs (d3a6ec) — 10/19/2008 @ 9:36 am

  363. I’ve proven (to my own satisfaction) that for each of the points I raised we either didn’t know the answer or that the opposite was true, but I had to search lot’s of other blogs and news reports sifting through the echo chorus to do so.

    What a lot of babble. What have you proven about Obama’s answer to Joe’s question?

    Comment by Jim Treacher (592cb4) — 10/19/2008 @ 7:01 pm

  364. OBAMA IS A MONSTER FOR VOTING TO MANDATE THE MURDER OF LITTLE INFANTS, BORN ALIVE, HAVING SURVIVED AN ABORTION ATTEMPT!
    NO ONE WHO VOTES LIKE THIS CAN POSSIBLY RESPECT THE LIFE OF OTHERS. EVER.
    I’ve noticed that everyone who is for abortion is already born”. Ronald Reagan.

    Comment by Mary (409353) — 10/24/2008 @ 7:53 am

  365. OBAMA IS A MARXIST SOCIALIST.
    AMERICAN SOLDIERS FOUGHT AND DIED AND SHED BLOOD FIGHTING MARXIST. WE WILL NOT ALLOW IT HERE. OBAMA GAVE ACORN OVER A MILLION DOLLARS TO STEAL YOUR VOTES. WITH THE STOLEN VOTES HE THEN CAN HAVE A SUPER MAJORITY IN THE SENATE AND HOUSE (VETO PROOF) HUSSAIN OBAMA’S PLAN IS TO STRIP YOU OF YOUR FREEDOM, RELIGON AND YOUR BELONGINGS! THEN HE WILL GIVE IT TO HIS MARXIST SOCIALIST FOLLOWERS. HE THEN BECOMES YOUR MARXIST EMPEROR! THIS IS WITH OUT A SHOT BEING FIRED.

    Comment by Johnny (409353) — 10/24/2008 @ 7:54 am

  366. This is Muslim money pure and simple. Muslims want to destroy our system and Christian religion. I repeat destroy our freedom and Christian religion. This is from the same people who brought beheadings and suicide bombing. All this money to Obama. I am sorry but this raises a very large alarm siren. I agree Alan I am very worried and wait on Barak.

    Comment by Sarge (409353) — 10/24/2008 @ 7:55 am

  367. That is so good I love the Obamiacks!
    For all the Obamiacks out there I love the Obama Retirement plan I want your money! Now many others and I can learn this new Retirement plan. I can live off of you big fat white boys out there. I do like to live it up so make my Retirement plan a big one. I love this, so work hard for me.

    Comment by Jenny (409353) — 10/24/2008 @ 7:55 am

  368. This was a message from a highly decorated and one of the most respected intelligence agents in the world. His last warning words to his beloved country before he died last month.
    Remember what I said. It is true and part of a misinformation plan is to make the truth look paranoid. Just look around and see the media and DNC parroting the party line. The Christian Religion is evil. Homosexual is normal. Patriotism evil. Rebellion and changing the Constitution normal. Disarm the citizens normal. NRA and hunters evil. The Military and heroes evil. Anti military and ridicule heroes normal. Success and hard work evil. The government owes me normal. Shocking this is right out of the handbook of communist and Islamic terrorism guides to revolution and over throwing a country. Schools teach the government is evil and socialism utopia normal. Divide the races through agitators and media. Destroy marriage and the families. The state is the parent. Call evil good and smear and destroy good. Look at the Hollywood crowd. McCarthy was right and history has proven it. They flock around dictators and tyrants Chavez, Castro, Iranian, and Syrians. Wake up and vote for McCain if you want freedom. After 40 years of Intelligence service I can just say look and watch. Look at Obama’s friend’s Islamic Marxists terror operatives. Rev. Wright Marxist preacher of Racist Hate and division. William Ayers Marxist radical terrorist. Farrakhan Muslim Marxist. Research the hidden years at Columbia University. Also the overseas trips. Victor Marchenco, Mohamud Kioj, Sayad Kael, Fhaad Hussan these are a few of the Islamic and KGB friends who financed and open doors here through contacts. I am not long for this earth. A Terminal Sickness has attached to me. I want to warn my beloved country.

    Comment by Colonel (409353) — 10/24/2008 @ 7:56 am

  369. 1. Colonel on your above post that was prophetic from the intelligence agent. My son was the Lt.in charge of his funeral honors at Arlington in Sept. What a hero and great man he was. My son said their were leaders from all over the world to pay him honors. The most touching he said were the members of government from the former USSR countries that were liberated. They kissed and wept over his coffin, The insults on this blog over this great hero are a disgrace. You would not last more than 10 seconds spitting out your poisoned hate before thoese who honored him

    Comment by JETHRO (409353) — 10/24/2008 @ 7:57 am

  370. Obama ‘Morally Justified’ for Votes Against Helping Aborted Babies Born Aliv
    e, Say Dems
    CNS News ^ |Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama was morally justified to oppose legislation in the Illinois State Senate that would have ensured that a child who survives a failed abortion received medical attention, according to Democratic leaders.
    While in the Illinois Senate, Obama opposed three bills that proposed protection in three different legislative votes, a decision that Republican presidential candidate John McCain said was wrong in the last presidential debate.
    After the debate, Sen. Chuck Schumer (D-N.Y.) and Democratic National Committee Chairman Howard Dean said that Obama did the right thing and defended his position.
    Watch the Video.
    “If you looked at those little meters, McCain lost that debate,” Schumer told CNSNews.com. “Most Americans are pro-choice. Most Americans don’t want to repeal Roe v. Wade, and I thought Obama was great there. He had his views but he was very respectful of the other side. Sometimes the left is a little too condescending to the other side.”
    Earlier this month, CNSNews.com Editor-in-Chief Terry Jeffrey reported that, in 2001, Illinois State Senator Patrick O’Malley introduced three bills to the legislature. One said that if a doctor performing an abortion believed there was a likelihood the baby would survive, another physician must be present “to assess the child’s viability and provide medical care.”
    Another bill gave the parents, or a state-appointed guardian, the right to sue to protect the child’s rights. A third bill said that a baby alive after “complete expulsion or extraction from its mother” would be considered a “person, ‘human being,’ ‘child’ and ‘individual.’”
    Obama voted against all three.
    During the last presidential debate, Obama responded to McCain’s allegation that his votes aligned him with the most “extreme aspect of the pro-abortion movement in America.”

    Comment by Oliver (409353) — 10/24/2008 @ 7:59 am

  371. MEDIA ADVISORY, October 24 /Christian Newswire/ — Today – perhaps in an eleventh hour answer to prayer for the unborn – Bishop Rene H. Gracida has released a stunning radio ad concerning Catholics voting for Barack Obama. His ad is recorded in English and Spanish.
    Bishop Gracida boldly states:
    “This is Bishop Rene H. Gracida, reminding all Catholics that they must vote in this election with an informed conscience. A Catholic cannot be said to have voted in this election with a good conscience if they have voted for a pro-abortion candidate. Barack Hussein Obama is a pro-abortion candidate.”
    The commercial can be heard in English and Spanish at http://www.randallterry.com.
    Bishop Gracida has offered this radio spot without charge for all who want to use it. All faithful Catholics are invited to download the mp3 file, and place this ad on their local radio station(s).
    They must simply contact their local radio station(s), and pay for the ad as an “independent expenditure.” The station can download the audio file to play on the radio. The mp3 file is also available at http://www.randallterry.com.
    Moreover, permission is granted for the ad to be downloaded, sent as a file, or posted on any web site in America.
    If this ad receives the airplay it deserves, it could sink Obama’s campaign by jolting Catholic voters back to their senses and moorings. Over 50% of Catholic voters have been seduced into ethical quicksand by errant Catholics who are partisan supporters of Obama and have betrayed the lives of innocent unborn children.

    Comment by JANE (87a2da) — 10/24/2008 @ 7:01 pm

  372. IBERALS HATE THE TRUTH. THEY WILL LIE AND ATTACK OTHERS TO HIDE THEIR FAILED BANKRUPT POLICIES. CENCORSHIP CAN NOT STOP FREEDOM. THE LEFT IS 99% OF ALL TERRORISTS THROUGH HISTORY. COMMUNISTS ARE LEFT WING OR CODE WORD LIBERAL. THE LEFT WILL LOSE THIS ELECTION BECAUSE OF THEIR BLATANT CENCORSHIP OF THE TRUTH AND HATE FILLED SPEECH. THE SAME WAY YOU TREATED JOE THE PLUMBER YOU HAVE DONE TO THE MIDDLE CLASS.

    Comment by JANE (e413f6) — 10/24/2008 @ 7:04 pm

  373. THE OBAMA LIBERAL LEFT WING DOES NOT CARE ABOUT FREEDOM. MORE WOMAN HAVE BEEN LIBERATED FROM HOPELESS DESPAIR, MUTILATION, TORTURE, DENIED EDUCATION BY THUGS YOU SUPPORT. THE WAR IN iRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN HAS FREED MILLIONS AND NOW LIVE IN PEACE AND FREEDOM. YOUR LEFT WING LIBERALS ARE THE CAUSE OF SUFFERING AROUND THE WORLD. YOUR OBAMA IS ALREADY ACTING AS A THUG WITH FAKE VOTES CORRUPT MONEY, AND THREATING RIOTS. TAKING FROM HARD WORKING FAMILIES TO GIVE TO THOESE WHO DONT.

    Comment by JANE (e413f6) — 10/24/2008 @ 7:05 pm

  374. Let us look at Chavez in Venezula and Castro. They are Left Wing Liberals. It is surpriseing hom many millions vote with their feet to flee the Liberal Doctrine. Look at the bankrupt europe sweeden, canada. The people are kicking out the liberals and voting in conservatives.

    Comment by JANE (2d4168) — 10/24/2008 @ 7:06 pm

  375. HA We have over 2241 Democrats here just in our town voting for McCain Obama will bring gun control by taxing ammo out of reach. He is anti guns and the rednecks will not stand for it! Did you notice thoese Republicans supporting Obama are anti gun and pro abortion

    Comment by RICHARD (436a8e) — 10/24/2008 @ 7:08 pm

  376. See Dick and Jane spam.

    Comment by DRJ (c953ab) — 10/24/2008 @ 7:14 pm

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