Patterico's Pontifications

4/24/2008

Excerpts from Bill Moyers’ Interview of Jeremiah Wright

Filed under: 2008 Election — DRJ @ 6:51 pm

[Guest post by DRJ]

Jake Tapper at ABC News reports excerpts from tomorrow night’s PBS-Bill Moyers interview of Jeremiah Wright:

“The persons who have heard the entire sermon understand the communication perfectly,” he tells Moyers, according to excerpts released by Moyers’ show.

“When something is taken like a sound bite for a political purpose and put constantly over and over again, looped in the face of the public,” Wright says, “that’s not a failure to communicate. Those who are doing that are communicating exactly what they want to do, which is to paint me as some sort of fanatic or as the learned journalist from the New York Times called me, a ‘wackadoodle.’

“It’s to paint me as something: ‘Something’s wrong with me. There’s nothing wrong with this country…for its policies. We’re perfect. Our hands are free. Our hands have no blood on them,'” Wright says. “That’s not a failure to communicate. The message that is being communicated by the sound bites is exactly what those pushing those sound bites want to communicate.”

And what does Wright think “they” wanted to communicate?

“That I am unpatriotic, that I am un-American, that I am filled with hate speech, that I have a cult at Trinity United Church of Christ,” Wright says. “And by the way, guess who goes to his church, hint, hint, hint? That’s what they wanted to communicate. They know nothing about the church. They know nothing about our prison ministry. They know nothing about our food sharing ministry. They know nothing about our senior citizens home. They know nothing about all we try to do as a church and have tried to do, and still continue to do as a church that believes what Martin Marty said, that the two worlds have to be together. And that the gospel of Jesus Christ has to speak to those worlds, not only in terms of the preached message on a Sunday morning but in terms of the lived-out ministry throughout the week.”

I don’t know if Trinity Church is a cult but I think Wright is un-American and filled with hate speech. And if I said the things Wright said only I directed them at black people and their institutions, Wright would have every right to think I am anti-black and hate-filled, too.

Nevertheless, Wright believes the criticism was unfair and unjust:

“Moyers asks Wright what he thought when he began to see the sound bites circulating.

“I felt it was unfair,” he says, “I felt it was unjust. I felt it was untrue. I felt for those who were doing that, were doing it for some very devious reasons….The blowup and the blowing up of sermons preached 15, seven, six years ago and now becoming a media event, not the full sermon, but the snippets from the sermon and sound bite having made me the target of hatred, yes, that is something very new and something very, very unsettling.”

Wright thinks the things Obama has to say in his political world differ from Wright’s pastoral world:

“Wright is also asked how it went down after Obama criticized Wright?

“It went down very simply,” Wright responds. “He’s a politician, I’m a pastor. We speak to two different audiences. And he says what he has to say as a politician. I say what I have to say as a pastor. But they’re two different worlds. I do what I do. He does what politicians do. So that what happened in Philadelphia where he had to respond to the sound bytes, he responded as a politician.”

Wright adds that he’s “absolutely” never heard Obama repeat any of Wright’s controversial statements as his own. “I don’t talk to him about politics,” Wright says. “And so he had a political event, he goes out as a politician and says what he has to say as a politician. I continue to be a pastor who speaks to the people of God about the things of God.”

Wright’s theme is apparently that he is being victimized, presumably by a right-wing conspiracy that wants to take down Barack Obama. It worked for Bill and Hillary. Why shouldn’t it work for Barack and Jeremiah?

H/T Vermont Neighbor.

— DRJ

131 Responses to “Excerpts from Bill Moyers’ Interview of Jeremiah Wright”

  1. It worked for Bill and Hillary. Why shouldn’t it work for Barack and Jeremiah?

    You Tube.

    Pablo (99243e)

  2. DRJ, great post and analysis. But the problem is simple. In this mixed up culture of ours, “minority” individuals (no matter how much money they have, incidentally) can say whatever they like, and it’s considered excusable or even noble, no matter what is being said.

    It’s a mindset courtesy of Herbert Marcuse, I think.

    Anyway, I believe (as you appear to) in reciprocity: if I spoke about Blacks the way Reverend Wrong speaks about Whites, I would indeed be a racist by the very definition of the term.

    But the good Reverend gets away with it. His very existence is dependent upon his Crown of Victimhood, after all.

    Despite his expensive cars and huge house in a nearly all White neighborhood.

    One last thing. You would think, if Wright was actually as Afro-centric as he would like to be perceived, that he would shut the heck up. His words hurt Obama’s chances.

    But the good Reverend doesn’t seem to care about much more than…well, the good Reverend’s air time.

    I could be wrong. But I doubt it.

    Eric Blair (d1e694)

  3. I missed the part where he explained the context such that hatred, bigotry and looney conspiracy theories suddenly became a sermon message of love, acceptance and sane reality.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  4. Moyers asking Wright about hating America??? That’s like Hawking and Sagan discussing cosmology.

    Hope Bill asked him about his golden parachute and home in evil rich whitey’s neghborhood.

    harkin (d6dc29)

  5. If you’d heard the complete sermon, rev wright was only speaking about information that anyone can access on the internet. The truth is this nations political machine has done some evil things around the globe, which they are trying to hide from us under the excuse of national security. This nation has engaged in some nefarious deeds, and we all are paying the price. 911 was not a love postcard, due to all the goodwill we’ve done around the world. wake up and smell the coffee. everything we have done is like aseed, and once it is grown and ripens we must receive that harvest, and put it on the p[late and eat it. He has the gut to preach facts that people really don’t want to help. he is warning us that if we continue in this way there will be more 911s. you cannot do wrong to people and not expect to reap what has been sown. That’s a law and a principle in the Earth that cannot be circumvented. we need to make washington more accountable for the things they do and not hide their atrocities. all truth eventually comes to light.
    Much love
    we;re going to need it
    Mike

    Mike (dee480)

  6. Rev. Wright didn’t discuss any of the statements, the turds in the punchbowl.

    “Look at all that healthy fruit in there!” “Look at the vitamins and minerals” “Nobody is talking about how we put all those wonderful ingredients in, they just want to talk about the turds in the punchbowl!”

    cfbleachers (4040c7)

  7. hey Mike: you don’t need love, you need a clue. Wright is a racist asshat, just like the Wahhabi terrorists who attacked us because we’re not Muslims. love has nothing to do with the motivations of either one, hate does.

    they hate us and want to destroy us. we have two choices: live or die. it’s obvious what your choice is, but i plan on living.

    redc1c4 (292479)

  8. In response to the comment #7 I am wondering if the message of Jesus was the Old Testament, “eye for an eye” or was it to “turn the other cheek”?
    You can’t die… so don’t worry, you have forever to get it right!

    Lon Van Eaton (6a20a0)

  9. Mike
    Here is a clue you asshat…the rich Muslims which attacked the very liberal NY City, did not attack us because of anything we had done in the Middle East. You may not believe what they said but I do, they did it in the name of Islam and the spread of Wahhabism. They were not poor or oppressed, they thought that by killing infidels in the name of Allah, they would be reward with eternal bliss.

    So no matter how many roses you sent Al Queda, or how many daycare centers you build, they still want you dead! America has protected more people and given more aid that any other nation on Earth and yet there are still bastards out there who want you dead because you are an American.

    To the 70s Communists in SE Asia to the Communist in South America and Islamists today, the driving factor of their hate for America isn’t because of our actions but only that we are in the way of their goals. The quicker you learn that the safer you and this nation will be. Clueless!

    LogicalSC (816260)

  10. This week, the North Carolina Republican Party has came out with a political TV ad that highlights Rev. Jeremiah Wright, specifically, his “God D___ America” rant. The ad, while making the case that Barack Obama was too extreme for America, was directly targeted at two Democrats running for governor of North Carolina since they had both endorsed Obama for president. As a result, liberals and Democrats are up in arms over the ad, even as the Hillary camp plays on the same points.

    In the wake of the ad, John McCain and the RNC have asked the NC Republican Party to remove the ad as being divisive. Up to now, the state party has refused to comply. Notwithstanding his disapproval of the ad, McCain is taking heat from Democrats. Howard Dean is attacking McCain for his inability to force the NC Republican Party to take down the ad.

    Then there is MSNBC’s blatantly partisan Keith Olbermann, who, last night, called the ad racist and attacked McCain in his “Worst person in the world” segment for his “connection” to those putting the ad up.

    What connection, Mr Olbermann? John McCain has disowned the ad and tried to have it taken down (something he does not have the authority to do).

    John McCain should be praised for his attempt to conduct a non-divisive campaign (at least to this point). But was the ad racist, as Olbermann and others on the left are charging? I think not. Just because Obama has a pastor who cries “God d___ America” and rails about white people and the “US of KKK”, does not make those who point out the truth racists. If anyone is racist, it is Reverend Wright. I would agree that the two Democratic gubernatorial candidates of North Carolina should not be saddled with Jeremiah Wright just because they endorsed Obama. That is another step removed. At any rate, I don’t consider the ad racist just because it criticizes a black pastor who has said outrageous things.

    Olbermann’s charges of racism surrounding the ad are to be expected. While he rails against Bill O’Reilly and Fox News (“Fix News” as he calls it.) on a nightly basis, Olbermann is a hypocrite when he makes these statements. His own show is nothing more than a one-sided exercise in bashing of Bush, the Republican Party and all things conservative. Unlike Fox, which has debates between liberals and conservatives, Republicans and Democrats, Hannity and Colmes, as well as O’Reilly bringing on opposing voices, Olbermann debates no one. His guests every night are the same tired old faces, Eugene Robinson, Rachel Maddow, Chuck Todd, Jonathan Alter and others who agree with him on everything. So now, Olbermann is attaching the “racist” label on the North Carolina ad without any explanation or evidence.

    In the wake of the ad “controversy”, David Axelrod, campaign chief for Obama, has thrown in his two cents worth with a comment about “white working-class voters” who will vote for the white candidate (as opposed to Obama).

    Then there is Joy Behar of “The View”. This morning, she joined the fray in bringing up the “Republican Attack Machine”, that “will do anything to hold on to power- anything.” What Joy refuses to understand is that Obama is still engaged in fighting off Hillary Clinton for the nomination. It is the Clintons that are playing the race card against Obama, not John McCain and his campaign. It is the Clintons who will do anything to win-anything.

    In short, the NC ad, while stretching to connect Jeremiah Wright to the two Democratic candidates for governor, are not racist. If they are, then any criticism of a black public figure is also racist. I would like to think we have progressed beyond that point.

    gary fouse
    fousesquawk

    fouse, gary c (7b7c7c)

  11. dear #8: i couldn’t care less what message jesus was preaching as i am not a christian.

    furthermore, since the only choice your islamic overlords are going to give you is convert, pay the tax and live as a virtual slave until they decide to kill you or just flat out kill you. you may be happy with those options, but you have no right to try and foist them on the rest of us. if you must have a religious answer, i’ll stick with the one from the Spanish Inquisition: “Kill them all: God will know his own.”

    redc1c4 (292479)

  12. I wish the next interviewer (Moyers is a whore for the DNC) would challenge Rev. Wright to go through his video sermons and show us where he had said that, “On the other hand, the USA has some good value …… (etc.).”

    I am so tired of the argument that he is being taken out of context. Show me the other side!

    There is none.

    Alta Bob (934c6d)

  13. a political TV ad that highlights Rev. Jeremiah Wright, specifically, his “God D___ America” rant. The ad, while making the case that Barack Obama was too extreme for America, was directly targeted at two Democrats running for governor of North Carolina since they had both endorsed Obama for president”

    In other words, Wright is being (used), by a right-wing “conspiracy” (political party) that wants to take down Barack Obama [and any other Democrat that it can].

    Yep. No matter what you think about Rev. Wright, his analysis of what his sermon and person is being used for is pretty much dead on.

    EdWood (4dbae4)

  14. At least he’s not denying saying the crazy and racist shit he said so we’ve got that, plus we had it on video anyway.

    His excuse – he’s a victim. That was part of the sermons already. He’s repeating himself.

    daleyrocks (906622)

  15. This nation has engaged in some nefarious deeds, and we all are paying the price. 911 was not a love postcard, due to all the goodwill we’ve done around the world.-Mike

    I agree. The little eichmanns leaping to their deaths in the WTC had it coming; the chickens are coming home to roost.

    The Islamists are all very peaceful and loving people; if only we would leave them alone to tend their goats and grow their beards … and beat their women and behead their infidels.

    /gawd I luv libs

    Freedom Fan (aa7dcf)

  16. Here’s what we WON’T see in that interview or in the events happening in its wake (among other things):

    Rev. Wright will NOT say whether or not Obama was at TUCC when any of the inflammatory remarks were made.

    Bill Moyers will NOT ask whether Wright really believes the AIDS virus was the result of a government conspiracy to commit genocide.

    Barack Obama will NOT specify which things Wright has said that he disagrees with, instead making yet another careful statement leading his followers to believe he rejects whatever parts of Wright’s ravings they didn’t like.

    For all his protestations that he was taken out of context, Wright will — despite being given a forum to clarify things — say NOTHING that will inform or illuminate. He will just blather on about how outsiders don’t know anything about his church, his ministry, or black liberation theology.

    Moyers will NOT ask about what was done with money raised by TUCC for Katrina relief.

    I could think of more, but I gotta go to bed. Any takers?

    L.N. Smithee (b17309)

  17. I agree. The little eichmanns leaping to their deaths in the WTC had it coming; the chickens are coming home to roost.

    Why don’t we add, ‘the gays caused 9-11′ to that little list? Wouldn’t that fit right in there?

    Levi (76ef55)

  18. EdWood wrote: In other words, Wright is being (used), by a right-wing “conspiracy” (political party) that wants to take down Barack Obama [and any other Democrat that it can].

    A political party is not a “conspiracy.” Don’t be silly.

    L.N. Smithee (b17309)

  19. Levi wrote: Why don’t we add, ‘the gays caused 9-11′ to that little list? Wouldn’t that fit right in there?

    Get the quote right, Leev, and don’t conveniently forget that Jerry Falwell apologized for his comments BEFORE Wright gave his “chickens” sermon.

    September 14, 2001 Posted: 2:55 AM EDT (0655 GMT)

    LYNCHBURG, Virginia (CNN) — The Rev. Jerry Falwell said late Thursday he did not mean to blame feminists, gays or lesbians for bringing on the terrorist attacks in New York and Washington this week, in remarks on a television program earlier in the day.

    On the broadcast of the Christian television program “The 700 Club,” Falwell made the following statement:

    “I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way, all of them who have tried to secularize America. I point the finger in their face and say ‘you helped this happen.'”

    (snip)

    Falwell told CNN: “I would never blame any human being except the terrorists, and if I left that impression with gays or lesbians or anyone else, I apologize.”

    So let’s review…

    Falwell: “I would never blame any human being except the terrorists…”

    Wright: “America’s chickens are coming home to roost…”

    L.N. Smithee (b17309)

  20. Comment by redc1c4 — 4/24/2008; if you’re going to repeat slander and libel, get it right. The supposed quote was from one of the Crusades, not any of the Spanish Inquisitions– the situation was rather like an army coming up on a town that could be a ton of terrorists, posing as civies, or just civies.
    The quote is well-known to have been made up, much later, as one of the earliest examples of “false but accurate.”

    Other than that, I rather agree– Wright is just some jerk using hate to get power, much like the terrorists, and both hide behind religions to do so.
    Anyone who disagrees with them is evil or stupid.

    Oh, wait…where have I heard that lately…?

    Foxfier (74f1c8)

  21. When Bill Moyers puts ear rings on a pig, it is still a pig.

    Perfect Sense (b6ec8c)

  22. EdWood,

    No matter what you think about Rev. Wright, his analysis of what his sermon and person is being used for is pretty much dead on.

    Except for the part where he says it’s unjust and untrue and done for devious reasons, and that he’s being victimized, yeah.

    He’s also right about communication. He communicated clearly and those who are disseminating his sermons are communicating clearly. This is a good thing, this putting the cards on the table.

    Pablo (99243e)

  23. The Democrats are in a dilemma. They cannot give the nomination to Hillary because the blacks would revolt and the alliance between leftist Democrats and blacks would be over. The super delegates have probably decided that it is better to lose the election with Obama than split the party. Then they will be able to blame the loss on racism and continue the old race pimping routine. Those who believe Obama is too inexperienced or a lefty and not competent to be president will be branded racists and nothing will be learned.

    Mike K (86bddb)

  24. I remember like it was yesterday, probably because it was the day before, when Levi was telling me that these sorts of “distractions” never stick to Republicans because of the echo chamber. And here he is now, tossing out quotes that have been repudiated by everyone including those who made them, and suggesting that they’re somehow relevant.

    Brilliant.

    Pablo (99243e)

  25. #16, here are more questions that will not be asked of the Rev. Mr. Wright:

    if he doesn’t believe in “middleclassness”, did he make the leap from poor pastor to wealthy retired pastor with his 10,000 sq. ft. home and a $10 million line of credit from Trinity?

    Does he subscribe to Cone’s philosophy that if God is not for the black American and against all white Americans that God must be killed?

    Does he subscribe to the Hamas manifesto that was published in the bulletin of Trinity Unitied Church of Christ’s pastor page?

    Has he preached that George Washington raped a black slave from the pulpit as well as putting it in his bulletin?

    No, he will never get hard questions. This interview was nothing more than a platform for Wright to whine about how he is being persecuted for being black, as his protege is beginnning to.

    Wright is not interested, any longer, in his candidate. If he were, he would fade into the woodwork and remain mute until after November. Instead, Wright is interested in his own fame, pure and simple. My hope is that he continues. He does not help Obama.

    retire05 (e0cb98)

  26. No matter how Rev. Wright tries to spin this, he messed up. What he should do is come out and apologise to the American people. It was a ghastly thing to say. America is not that bad after all. They may have had some bad leaders but the people are not bad people. They are compassionate people who give generously to help the poor and underprivileged people of the world. There should be no room for hate on the pulpit. The real enemy is fundamentalist Islam. They have a satanic agenda to expand Islam by the use of force and death. They hate democracy, free speech, progress and women’s right. They are depraved and have lost every sense of right and wrong. To them, killing innocent people in the name of allah will send you to paradise where you are given 72 virgins. They are crazy. They are the enemy of the free world which America leads. As a man of God, Wright should have known better. and even now he fails to see his errors. Obama should do more to distance himself from this man or face his waterloo.

    love2008 (d2a57f)

  27. So let’s review…

    Falwell: “I would never blame any human being except the terrorists…”

    Wright: “America’s chickens are coming home to roost…”

    Millions of Americans have posited that we were attacked because of things we’ve done and mistakes we’ve made in our foreign policy, which is what Wright did. His comment is absolutely, completely more appropriate then saying ‘I point the finger in their face…’ after naming every single one of your political adversaries. Talk about trying to cash in politically on the tragedy, can you think of anything more pathetic than trying to turn 9-11 into a condemnation of every liberal constituency? And all he has to do is give you some Beaver Cleaver routine, “Aw shucks, gee whiz, I would never blame anybody except the terrorists,” even though that’s exactly what he did, and he’s totally redeemed and forgiven, that’s fucking bullshit.

    There’s nothing even remotely racist or divisive or inflammatory about what Wright said, why should he have to apologize? Again, lots of people in this country would agree with Wright’s assessments. I know that doesn’t jive with the conservative attitude about 9-11 and the terrorists, that they just mindlessly ‘hate us for our freedom’ and had no motivation beyond being evil and bloodthirsty, and to even suggest that they were probably reacting to something we did in our foreign policy is un-American and pro-terrorist, but that’s the way a fucking child looks at the world.

    Levi (76ef55)

  28. Easy Levi, there is nothing that can justify the murder of innocent civilians who were going about their daily chores. Condemn evil outrightly. Dont justify it.

    love2008 (d2a57f)

  29. Millions of Americans have posited that 9/11 was an inside job. Are you in that camp Levi?

    daleyrocks (906622)

  30. Mr. Wright is a victim of his First Amendment rights – an interesting defense.

    He IS a legal American citizen, is he not? Otherwise he does not have such rights.

    Thank you for your time.

    The Outlander (deaf8b)

  31. The US of KKKA invented AIDS to slaughter blacks en masse.

    There’s nothing even remotely racist or divisive or inflammatory about what Wright said, why should he have to apologize?

    Does. Not. Compute.

    Pablo (99243e)

  32. Pablo, those words were obviously twisted. Or maybe Wright is twisted. Both I think.

    Sometimes I get confused by hopeyness of the young and clueless.

    daleyrocks (906622)

  33. Easy Levi, there is nothing that can justify the murder of innocent civilians who were going about their daily chores. Condemn evil outrightly. Dont justify it.

    It wasn’t justified, and no one is saying it was justified, least of all Rev. Wright. He’s describing blowback for certain facets of American foreign policy.

    Levi (76ef55)

  34. Millions of Americans have posited that 9/11 was an inside job. Are you in that camp Levi?

    No. Will that earn me any credibility around here?

    Levi (76ef55)

  35. No. Will that earn me any credibility around here?

    Levi – I don’t think anything will help your credibility around here based on your limitless dishonesty.

    daleyrocks (906622)

  36. Nope. You are still a vile assclown of the highest order. What foreign policy blunders justified a terrorist action killing thousands?

    JD (5f0e11)

  37. What foreign policy blunders justified a terrorist action killing thousands?

    Again, nothing justified it, you dumb cunt. I didn’t say that, nor did Rev. Wright. There are lots of people that live on this planet, and it’s understandable that there are going to be at least a few of them that are going to get pissed off about what we do. Wouldn’t you say? Our presence in the Middle East in places like Saudi Arabia pisses of some of the crazier among these people, Osama bin Laden says as much, so we shouldn’t be surprised that we’re targeted by them.

    No one is justifying 9-11. I think Falwell and Robertson are idiots for what they said, but they weren’t justifying 9-11, either. Talk about being dishonest all the fucking time….

    Levi (76ef55)

  38. Levi wants to judge Wright on a 20 second soundbite…of his choosing.

    Pablo (99243e)

  39. Our presence in the Middle East in places like Saudi Arabia pisses of some of the crazier among these people, Osama bin Laden says as much, so we shouldn’t be surprised that we’re targeted by them.

    Oh, so if a woman walking down a city street gets mugged, raped and murdered by crazies who were motivated by her being there, that’s just her chickens coming home to roost. Is that about right, Levi?

    Pablo (99243e)

  40. Oh, so if a woman walking down a city street gets mugged, raped and murdered by crazies who were motivated by her being there, that’s just her chickens coming home to roost. Is that about right, Levi?

    That’s the shittiest analogy I’ve ever heard. What pisses off these crazy Arabs is that we’re in their holy land, and they think it is their mission to remove us from it. Your little scenario is too simple and unsophisticated, but let’s consider the source.

    Levi (76ef55)

  41. Levi – I will refer you to the 1st Rule of Holes – When you find yourself in a hole, quit digging. You can call me every name under the sun, and you will, and that will not make you any less vile, or more right. It simply is a manifestation of the internal static you encounter when pressed on one of your specious points.

    JD (5f0e11)

  42. It wasn’t justified, and no one is saying it was justified, least of all Rev. Wright. He’s describing blowback for certain facets of American foreign policy.

    Comment by Levi — 4/25/2008 @ 9:21 am

    Perhaps you can educate us more on this foreign policy blunder. But bear in mind that 911 didnt necessarily hit at the government as it did the people. So what nefarious crime did the American people commit that they had to reap that day? Educate us.

    love2008 (d2a57f)

  43. We just need to adjust our foreign policy to ensure that we do not offend any whacked out billionaire terrorists. Great idea.

    JD (5f0e11)

  44. Levi – I will refer you to the 1st Rule of Holes – When you find yourself in a hole, quit digging. You can call me every name under the sun, and you will, and that will not make you any less vile, or more right. It simply is a manifestation of the internal static you encounter when pressed on one of your specious points.

    What hole? You’re full of shit. You might as well just admit that you don’t want to talk to me anymore about all your false assertions about Rev. Wright and would rather deal with me the way that all Republicans deal with their critics; by attacking their character. Sorry you can’t keep up, shit-for-brains.

    Levi (76ef55)

  45. I cannot keep up with you? Did you ever hear the joke about the guy with no arms and no legs? In a 100 yard dash, he laps you.

    So you agree with Wright that we brought 9/11 on ourselves. You can tell a lot about a boy by the company he keeps.

    Try out this site, Levi. It looks like they could help. http://www.stuckinthebasement.com or http://www.iamanangrylittleboy.com

    JD (5f0e11)

  46. Perhaps you can educate us more on this foreign policy blunder. But bear in mind that 911 didnt necessarily hit at the government as it did the people. So what nefarious crime did the American people commit that they had to reap that day? Educate us.

    You guys certainly do need lots of education, but this is like talking to kindergarteners, you’ve completely misunderstood what caused 9-11 (‘they hate us for our freedom!) the way a child is incapable of understanding why their puppy has died.

    But here ya go, Osama doesn’t think westerners have any place in Saudi Arabia, where Islam’s holiest cities are located, and he thinks it is his mission from Allah to drive us out of the area. It’s not so much a foreign policy blunder as it is blowback, a certain extremist minority of Muslims are infuriated by our presence there, they just happen to be fanatics willing to kill themselves to hurt us.

    Additionally, Osama wasn’t targeting the American people, and not the government, he was targeting us both. They did fly that plane into the Pentagon, remember?

    Levi (76ef55)

  47. Levi – I do not attack your character. You have shown that by any objective standard, you have none. Unlike you, I do not pay attention to imaginary hallucinations.

    JD (5f0e11)

  48. What pisses off these crazy Arabs is that we’re in their holy land, and they think it is their mission to remove us from it.

    They don’t like women running around in public much either. So if they attack one of them for doing it, it must be her chickens coming home to roost, right? If not, explain the difference between the two, preferably with more substance than profanity.

    Pablo (99243e)

  49. He’s describing blowback for certain facets of American foreign policy.

    That would be like blowback for female policy of walking down the street, right?

    He’s saying we asked for it and therefore we got it. True or false?

    Pablo (99243e)

  50. I think looking at this from another perspective, Rev. Wright coming out now may eventually work out well for obama. First it transfers the responsibility of the comments from obama to the reverend. Then people will stop connecting Obama to those speeches. ( As if they were his.) Next, it allows people to see the man that has generated such outrage over the past month for who he really is. And frankly he doesnt look that threatening. Which now begs the question, why would such a quiet looking man make such infuriating remarks? And by the time they hear what he has to say, it will introduce a new arguement, whether he was right or wrong as we have already started seeing in this blog. mmmmmmgh……Smart.

    love2008 (d2a57f)

  51. Levi, OK if what Wright was preaching was not racist, what was it. Levi, ever notice when some disaster happens in the world which nation leads in bringing aid. Is it Iran? Saudi Arabia, North Korea, Communist China? Russia? Levi, which nation leads the way? It was the evil Americans who spent billions rebuilding Europe after WWII. What other nation suffers fools such as yourself Levi? Levi, Wright is pond scum, and you are just beneath that.

    Zelsdorf Ragshaft III (e18128)

  52. Levi – I repeat, we just need to adjust our foreign policy to ensure that we do not offend any whacked out billionaire terrorists. Great idea.

    JD (75f5c3)

  53. Levi – I do not attack your character. You have shown that by any objective standard, you have none. Unlike you, I do not pay attention to imaginary hallucinations.

    Whatever man. You were making false statements about Wright’s meaning, I tried to correct you, you spouted off some shitty analogy, I told you how shitty it was, and now you want to talk about me. At the end of the day, I’m still addressing your ‘points,’ trying to refute your ‘arguments,’ and you’re taking your ball and going home. You’re too stupid to defend yourself, or you’re too proud to admit you’re wrong, and you’re running away from me. Very weak.

    Levi (76ef55)

  54. They don’t like women running around in public much either. So if they attack one of them for doing it, it must be her chickens coming home to roost, right? If not, explain the difference between the two, preferably with more substance than profanity.

    The difference between the two? You mean the difference between geopolitics and street crime against women? You need those differences spelled out? I’m bored, but I’m not that fucking bored.

    Levi (76ef55)

  55. You did not correct me. You called me a cunt. OOOOOooooooooo. Bad word. You have yet to respond me, so I have to assume that you have no answer. I did not spout off any analogies, that was Pablo. Reading comprehension is not your strong suit, huh? You calling me stoopid is like Rosie or Michael Moore calling me fat. But thank you, I had a long morning, and you have made it far more entertaining. Running away from you? Usually you just accuse people of stalking you when they respond to you. Either way, you are wrong.

    JD (75f5c3)

  56. But here ya go, Osama doesn’t think westerners have any place in Saudi Arabia, where Islam’s holiest cities are located, and he thinks it is his mission from Allah to drive us out of the area.

    And somebody else will think that we have no place in North Atlantic fishing waters, and another in South American banana plantations, and another in the Mississippi basin?

    It is not especially useful to understand or respect our enemies’ point of view. What is extremely useful is not to permit our enemies to exist.

    nk (284b49)

  57. nk – He is not justifying their positions, only explaining them. Getting to the root causes. Because if only we never did anything that anyone could possibly disagree with, this would have never happened.

    Levi – Defend Wright’s positions on the black God of Black Liberation Theology. Defend his statements about the US creating the AIDS virus to kill blacks.

    JD (75f5c3)

  58. AND THE WINNER ISSSSSSSSSSSSS….LLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII…Man Levi you are something else. And Bush went to Iraq to look for WMDs. He should have started with your atomic bomb mouth! And I say this as a compliment. DONT SHOOT ME BRO. We are on the same side. Shoot Osama Bin Laden and his cohorts. They are the bad guys. Levi rocks!

    love2008 (d2a57f)

  59. I repeat, we just need to adjust our foreign policy to ensure that we do not offend any whacked out billionaire terrorists. Great idea.

    That’s not my idea and that’s not Rev. Wright’s idea, not even close. You’re conjuring up people with conjured up positions to debate against.

    Levi (76ef55)

  60. Hey Levi, just want to chime in here that you are vile. So at least we know where your bad manners come from. But when you say some people were pissed off at us and retailiated with 9/11, you ARE justifying what they did. At long last, have you no sense of decency?

    That’s like saying, “I’m not saying Levi beating his wife is justified, but he was pissed off because dinner was late. Her chickens merely came home to roost.”

    Also, The Rev. hurt my feelings by saying the US created AIDS to kill blacks. I consider that “devisive,” since he doesn’t seem to be approaching white people a “let’s all get along” attitude. I know this is wasted on you …

    Oh, and to save you the trouble typing, I just reread all your cursing and insults directed at earlier commentors, so I’ll just presume you mean me in all those, as well.

    Geo W (eb5968)

  61. And somebody else will think that we have no place in North Atlantic fishing waters, and another in South American banana plantations, and another in the Mississippi basin?

    Yes, yes exactly. We can’t keep 6 billion people on our side all of the time, something we do is going to piss people off, lots of things we do is going to piss people off. Acknowledging that isn’t un-American.

    It is not especially useful to understand or respect our enemies’ point of view. What is extremely useful is not to permit our enemies to exist.

    Again, nobody has said anything about respecting our enemies’ points of view. But you can’t see the usefulness of understanding it? You’ve never heard someone say ‘know thy enemy?’

    Levi (76ef55)

  62. But when you say some people were pissed off at us and retailiated with 9/11, you ARE justifying what they did. At long last, have you no sense of decency?

    What are you saying, that the hijackers weren’t pissed off at us? That Osama bin Laden isn’t pissed off at us? I’m not saying they’re justifiably pissed off at us, am I?

    That’s like saying, “I’m not saying Levi beating his wife is justified, but he was pissed off because dinner was late. Her chickens merely came home to roost.”

    You guys can throw out all the wife-beating and women-killing analogies you want, they’re over-simplifications that are too narrow in scope to be a valid comparison.

    Also, The Rev. hurt my feelings by saying the US created AIDS to kill blacks. I consider that “devisive,” since he doesn’t seem to be approaching white people a “let’s all get along” attitude. I know this is wasted on you …

    I was talking specifically about Rev. Wright’s 9-11 comments versus Falwell’s 9-11 comments. I agree the HIV stuff is divisive and non-productive. You’re kind of a wuss if it actually hurts your feelings though.

    Levi (76ef55)

  63. So what would you do differently, Levi? You were arguing that we pissed off Osama to the point where 9/11 happened.

    JD (75f5c3)

  64. You did not correct me. You called me a cunt. OOOOOooooooooo. Bad word. You have yet to respond me, so I have to assume that you have no answer. I did not spout off any analogies, that was Pablo. Reading comprehension is not your strong suit, huh? You calling me stoopid is like Rosie or Michael Moore calling me fat. But thank you, I had a long morning, and you have made it far more entertaining. Running away from you? Usually you just accuse people of stalking you when they respond to you. Either way, you are wrong.

    Yes, I did call you a cunt, but how do you consider all of this:

    Again, nothing justified it, you dumb cunt. I didn’t say that, nor did Rev. Wright. There are lots of people that live on this planet, and it’s understandable that there are going to be at least a few of them that are going to get pissed off about what we do. Wouldn’t you say? Our presence in the Middle East in places like Saudi Arabia pisses of some of the crazier among these people, Osama bin Laden says as much, so we shouldn’t be surprised that we’re targeted by them.

    No one is justifying 9-11. I think Falwell and Robertson are idiots for what they said, but they weren’t justifying 9-11, either. Talk about being dishonest all the fucking time….

    to be a non-response? Am I talking about you at all in those two paragraphs, beyond ‘you dumb cunt?’

    And yeah, Pablo was the one with the shitty analogy. Sometimes I confuse the members of my fan club, sorry.

    Levi (76ef55)

  65. You mean the difference between geopolitics and street crime against women?

    9/11 was not geopolitics, it was murder.

    Yes, yes exactly. We can’t keep 6 billion people on our side all of the time, something we do is going to piss people off, lots of things we do is going to piss people off. Acknowledging that isn’t un-American.

    Describing is as “chickens coming home to roost” is. Tell me Levi, was Wright saying that we asked for 9/11 and therefore we got it? Yes or no?

    Here’s a refresher to help you figure it out:

    We took this country by terror away from the Sioux, the Apache, the Aroawak, the Comanche, the Arapaho, the Navajo. Terrorism! We took Africans from their country to build our way of ease and kept them enslaved and living in fear. Terrorism! We bombed Grenada and killed innocent babies, non military personnel. We bombed the black civilian community of Panama with stealth bombers and killed unarmed teenagers and toddlers, pregnant mothers and hard-working fathers. We bombed Gadhaffi’s home and killed his child. Blessed are they who bash your children’s head against a rock! We bombed Iraq. We killed unarmed civilians trying to make a living. We bombed a plant in Sudan to payback for the attack on our embassy. Killed hundreds of hard-working people; mothers and fathers who left home to go that day, not knowing that they would never get back home. We bombed Hiroshima! We bombed Nagasaki, and we nuked far more than the thousands in New York and the Pentagon, and we never batted an eye! Kids playing in the playground, mothers picking up children after school, civilians – not soldiers – people just trying to make it day by day. We have supported state terrorism against the Palestinians and Black South Africans, and now we are indignant??? Because the stuff we have done overseas has now been brought back into our own front yard! America’s chickens are coming home to roost!

    Not only is he saying that we asked for it, he’s saying we deserved it.

    Pablo (99243e)

  66. “When something is taken like a sound bite for a political purpose and put constantly over and over again, looped in the face of the public,” Wright says, “that’s not a failure to communicate. Those who are doing that are communicating exactly what they want to do,

    Shades of Bill Moyers, “Daisy Ad” of 1964 and the complicity of the broadcast MSM to run that ad over and over again as “News”. For free.

    Look up hypocrite in the dictionary and one will find Bill Moyers face there as the definition.

    Norris (a359ba)

  67. It wasn’t justified, and no one is saying it was justified, least of all Rev. Wright. He’s describing blowback for certain facets of American foreign policy.

    Dishonest as usual. He said 9-11 was equivalent to what we have done. Clearly implying we deserved it.

    Gerald A (b9214e)

  68. Fans are people who like you. And for the bazillionth time, Falwell’s comments were idiotic and NO ONE who isn’t also an idiot defends them.

    Pablo (99243e)

  69. So, Levi, should our foreign policy be premised on not pissing off Osama? Because absent that, you are giving excuses for why they did what they did. It might not sit well with you that you are doing so, and that is creating the static that is making you call everyone names, but you are making excuses, or going all root cause on us. The idea that we brought this on ourselves is laughable, but not a surprising position for you to have.

    We took this country by terror away from the Sioux, the Apache, the Aroawak, the Comanche, the Arapaho, the Navajo. Terrorism! We took Africans from their country to build our way of ease and kept them enslaved and living in fear. Terrorism! We bombed Grenada and killed innocent babies, non military personnel. We bombed the black civilian community of Panama with stealth bombers and killed unarmed teenagers and toddlers, pregnant mothers and hard-working fathers. We bombed Gadhaffi’s home and killed his child. Blessed are they who bash your children’s head against a rock! We bombed Iraq. We killed unarmed civilians trying to make a living. We bombed a plant in Sudan to payback for the attack on our embassy. Killed hundreds of hard-working people; mothers and fathers who left home to go that day, not knowing that they would never get back home. We bombed Hiroshima! We bombed Nagasaki, and we nuked far more than the thousands in New York and the Pentagon, and we never batted an eye! Kids playing in the playground, mothers picking up children after school, civilians – not soldiers – people just trying to make it day by day. We have supported state terrorism against the Palestinians and Black South Africans, and now we are indignant??? Because the stuff we have done overseas has now been brought back into our own front yard! America’s chickens are coming home to roost!

    That is not a justification?

    JD (75f5c3)

  70. So what would you do differently, Levi? You were arguing that we pissed off Osama to the point where 9/11 happened.

    It’s simple; we need to stop being dependent on foreign oil. Then we can stop sending all these Middle Easterners our money that may or may not end up in our enemies’ hands and we don’t have to take on the cost, and risk of building bases and deploying troops to the region.

    Osama is successful and effective because he can point to the Americans as the boogeymen, he says we want to corrupt the Muslim way of life and steal Arab oil. If we didn’t have to protect our oil interests there, and thus could leave the region, that would undercut his entire argument. His message would die, he would fade away. The alternative is breaking our military and throwing money down a hole to mediate sectarian religious wars.

    That’s not to say we should base our foreign policy on what Osama wants us to do. But eliminating our dependence on foreign oil would be better for our economy, national security, and the environment first and foremost, marginalizing Osama would just be a beneficial side effect. Again, the alternative is to continue this economy and military-busting crusade that George Bush has put us on.

    Levi (76ef55)

  71. Osama is successful and effective because he can point to the Americans as the boogeymen, he says we want to corrupt the Muslim way of life and steal Arab oil.

    Osama is an utter failure.

    Is he better off than he was 7 years ago? Not even close.

    Pablo (99243e)

  72. 9/11 was not geopolitics, it was murder.

    Sigh….

    Describing is as “chickens coming home to roost” is. Tell me Levi, was Wright saying that we asked for 9/11 and therefore we got it? Yes or no?

    Here’s a refresher to help you figure it out:

    We took this country by terror away from the Sioux, the Apache, the Aroawak, the Comanche, the Arapaho, the Navajo. Terrorism! We took Africans from their country to build our way of ease and kept them enslaved and living in fear. Terrorism! We bombed Grenada and killed innocent babies, non military personnel. We bombed the black civilian community of Panama with stealth bombers and killed unarmed teenagers and toddlers, pregnant mothers and hard-working fathers. We bombed Gadhaffi’s home and killed his child. Blessed are they who bash your children’s head against a rock! We bombed Iraq. We killed unarmed civilians trying to make a living. We bombed a plant in Sudan to payback for the attack on our embassy. Killed hundreds of hard-working people; mothers and fathers who left home to go that day, not knowing that they would never get back home. We bombed Hiroshima! We bombed Nagasaki, and we nuked far more than the thousands in New York and the Pentagon, and we never batted an eye! Kids playing in the playground, mothers picking up children after school, civilians – not soldiers – people just trying to make it day by day. We have supported state terrorism against the Palestinians and Black South Africans, and now we are indignant??? Because the stuff we have done overseas has now been brought back into our own front yard! America’s chickens are coming home to roost!

    Not only is he saying that we asked for it, he’s saying we deserved it.

    Rev. Wright is merely using our own history to demonstrate that our record hasn’t exactly been squeaky clean for the past 225+ years. Would you argue it is? We have in our past committed acts of terrorism and genocide and human rights abuses, we do some of those things to this day. I’m not a religious person and don’t get all the ‘God did this’ stuff one bit, but since this a preacher preaching a sermon to his congregation, the point Wright is making is that God was judging America on 9-11 for some of the terrible things we’ve done in our past. Which I don’t agree with, obviously, but that’s an infinitely sounder and more reasonable use of logic than Falwell suggesting that God did this to punish the gays and the ACLU.

    To an extent, yes. Rev. Wright is saying we deserved what we got, or maybe more precisely, he is saying that God thinks we deserved what we got. But that’s exactly what Falwell said, too, except he also tried to exploit the attack to take a potshot at his political opponents. And again, both of these guys are saying these things days after 9-11, when we were all confused and disoriented and asking, sometimes of higher powers, why this happened to us. It doesn’t mean he hates America and loves terrorists, or that he was glad to see it happen.

    Levi (76ef55)

  73. Osama is an utter failure.

    Is he better off than he was 7 years ago? Not even close.

    How is he not better off? We’ve all but forgotten him, and now he gets to watch from his hiding place as America burns through its resources to babysit a bunch of religious fanatics. The only shot that a small, unorganized, poorly funded group like Osama’s had at unseating or seriously harming the United States was to get us to do it to ourselves, and George Bush seems happy to oblige.

    What about the rest of my post, did any of that make sense to you?

    Levi (76ef55)

  74. I deplore Wright’s comments about 9/11 in part because he’s still saying them years later. It’s not based on emotion, it’s calculated.

    DRJ (a431ca)

  75. So, Levi, should our foreign policy be premised on not pissing off Osama? Because absent that, you are giving excuses for why they did what they did. It might not sit well with you that you are doing so, and that is creating the static that is making you call everyone names, but you are making excuses, or going all root cause on us. The idea that we brought this on ourselves is laughable, but not a surprising position for you to have.

    I think what I say in #70 covers this well enough, but just to reiterate, no, we shouldn’t predicate our foreign policy on not pissing off Osama. We should predicate it on doing what is best for our economy and security, and both of those things are improved dramatically by getting off of foreign oil. Diffusing Osama’s message and argument is merely a tertiary side-effect of that. It’s win-win-win.

    Or, we can continue on the George Bush path….

    Levi (76ef55)

  76. It’s simple; we need to stop being dependent on foreign oil. AGRARIAN ECONOMY FOR EVERYONE. You complain about simplistic analogies then have the audacity to write one of the most meaningless, trite political catchphrases that has ever been trotted out.

    Again, the alternative is to continue this economy and military-busting crusade that George Bush has put us on.

    Because we never, no never depended on foreign oil before the evil Boooooooooooooosh took office.

    We’ve all but forgotten him,

    Lie

    JD (75f5c3)

  77. The fact remains that For all your strong points and good intentions, America is not loved by all. There are those rooting daily for the destruction of America as it is. this is a fact that 911 served to awaken everyone to. Terrorists are agents of the devil. Hate is there motivation. You dont have to be evil to incure their wrath. Infact the more innocent you are they more of a target you are. They have no real agenda but to wreck havoc. Get this in your heads, they are agents of the devil who has no other mission except to steal, kill and to destroy. John10:10, When they kill, its just the way they are. Trying to politicize this misses the whole point. Though they would like to hide behind some political guise to justify their wickedness. Atleast it helps them rally unsuspecting people to their cause. But apart from that they have no agenda but to kill, kill, and kill! In the light of this fact Rev wright is so wrong and needs to apologise. 911 was not payback time, it was wake up time for all to see the danger that is lurking around us. It could have been worse.

    love2008 (d2a57f)

  78. It’s simple; we need to stop being dependent on foreign oil. AGRARIAN ECONOMY FOR EVERYONE. You complain about simplistic analogies then have the audacity to write one of the most meaningless, trite political catchphrases that has ever been trotted out.

    Again, are you having attributing false arguments to me and debating them? Even the foreign oil is going to run out eventually, and as it does, it’s only going to get mostly costly and more risky to obtain. We’re gonna have to drop it eventually, this is a fact. Unless you’re the one that believes that resources aren’t finite?

    Because we never, no never depended on foreign oil before the evil Boooooooooooooosh took office.

    More positions I’ve never taken, more things I’ve never said.

    Lie

    From the glorious commander-in-chief’s mouth itself: “I truly am not that concerned about him.”
    That was only 6 months after 9-11. He’d be dead by now if Bush didn’t make this pit stop in Iraq.

    Levi (76ef55)

  79. Levi,

    If Clinton wasn’t such a putz, and Clinton didn’t hire Reno and Jaime Gorelick to screw up DOJ, Bin Laden would have been in an American Federal Prison long before 9/11 when the Sudan offered Bin Laden to us on a platter.

    PCD (5c49b0)

  80. the point Wright is making is that God was judging America on 9-11 for some of the terrible things we’ve done in our past.

    Exactly. Which is not what you’ve been representing throughout this conversation. On the contrary, you’ve been framing it as we just pissed off some wackos by being where they don’t like us being. But no, Wright says we asked for it, we deserved it and we got it. Chickens coming home to roost. Thankyewverymuch.

    But that’s exactly what Falwell said, too, except he also tried to exploit the attack to take a potshot at his political opponents.

    Yes, and anyone who’s anyone condemns those statements and did so immediately. Falwell himself apologized and retracted the “God was punishing us because of teh gheys” inference. But you’re still defending Wright’s statements, right here, right now.

    How is he not better off?

    Because if he’s still even sucking air, he’s doing it in some hovel instead of having his own country to wander around at will. His command structures have been decimated, his armies have taken enormous losses and he’s reduced to communicating by smuggled audiotape. Oh, and his ability to attack is now pretty much zero. And he’s living with the notion that anyone he runs into might drop a dime on him, collect $25 million and get Osama a hellfire up the ass for Ramadan. Did you read the link, regarding his status among his fellow jihadis? How is he possibly doing any better now than then?

    We’ve all but forgotten him

    Who is this we you speak of?

    Pablo (99243e)

  81. Even the foreign oil is going to run out eventually

    Asserting that does not make it true.

    We’re gonna have to drop it eventually, this is a fact.

    That is your humble opinion, presented as fact. Again, arguement by assertion.

    He’d be dead by now if Bush didn’t make this pit stop in Iraq.

    Again, arguement by assertion. I would request 2 offers of proof. First, proof that he is not dead, and second, proof that we would have certainly killed him in Afghanistan had Iraq not happened.

    JD (75f5c3)

  82. To an extent, yes. Rev. Wright is saying we deserved what we got, or maybe more precisely, he is saying that God thinks we deserved what we got.

    So now you’re contradicting yourself.

    Gerald A (b9214e)

  83. From the glorious commander-in-chief’s mouth itself: “I truly am not that concerned about him.”
    That was only 6 months after 9-11.

    Which isn’t “Who? Oh him? I forgot about him.” What was that you were just complaining about? Something about things you didn’t say being attributed to you?

    He’d be dead by now if Bush didn’t make this pit stop in Iraq.

    Because we’d know where he is? Because we’d invade Pakistan? How do you figure? (And BTW, I remain skeptical that he’s not already worm food.)

    Pablo (99243e)

  84. What about Pearl Harbor? Did America deserve that too? Was that also American chickens coming to roost?

    love2008 (d2a57f)

  85. Levi – Your man Obama has got a stellar plan for energy independence. He’s still out there blaming the oil companies for the price of gas instead of pointing the finger at the fucking democrats in congress. Should we start calling him Senator Stoopid now too?

    daleyrocks (906622)

  86. Exactly. Which is not what you’ve been representing throughout this conversation.

    You’re right, I was putting it in a religious context similar to Falwell’s statement, because in that light, we can see more effectively how their respective statements compare and contrast. But he was also hitting on the idea that American foreign policy can cause resentment and anger in the world, which is what elevates Wright’s sermon above Falwell’s homophobia.

    I don’t think I’m being inconsistent by talking about all of the dimensions of Wright’s statement.

    On the contrary, you’ve been framing it as we just pissed off some wackos by being where they don’t like us being.

    I have been saying that, but it is slightly more complicated than just that.

    But no, Wright says we asked for it, we deserved it and we got it. Chickens coming home to roost. Thankyewverymuch.

    Which is exactly what Falwell said. And what Hagee says about Hurricane Katrine.

    The reason I keep bringing up Falwell and Robertson and Hagee is if what we’re worried about here is religious figures influencing people, we should be worrying about them first. Those guys are piped into TV sets across the globe, reaching and influencing millions of people with their homophobia and misogyny. Rev Wright speaks to a few thousand Chicago residents each week. If we’re so worried about him rubbing off on Obama, shouldn’t we be worried about the millions of Republican voters being influenced by people like Falwell?

    There was nothing like the demonization of Rev Wright with regards to these conservative religious leaders, and you know it. One stupid apology shouldn’t make it go away, Falwell was still plainly an anti-gay crazy person. You don’t just ‘slip up’ and blame 9-11 on gays.

    Because if he’s still even sucking air, he’s doing it in some hovel instead of having his own country to wander around at will. His command structures have been decimated, his armies have taken enormous losses and he’s reduced to communicating by smuggled audiotape. Oh, and his ability to attack is now pretty much zero. And he’s living with the notion that anyone he runs into might drop a dime on him, collect $25 million and get Osama a hellfire up the ass for Ramadan. Did you read the link, regarding his status among his fellow jihadis? How is he possibly doing any better now than then?

    Because he’s watching us break our military and our bank on a fool’s errand, that’s how. Everybody in the world, you included, will come to realize, eventually, how far back the war in Iraq is setting us. Osama has wizened to it already, I’m sure.

    Who is this we you speak of?

    The Bush administration. It’s pretty fucking hilarious that you guys can keep bringing up Clinton and how he wasn’t able to get Osama, and now you’re excusing Bush for basically not even trying anymore.

    Levi (76ef55)

  87. Which is exactly what Falwell said. And what Hagee says about Hurricane Katrine.

    Yes! And they’re all bugfuck nuts, and anyone with an ounce of common sense should be able to note that. I can say that about all three of them, unreservedly. Can you? And if so, why are you defending Wright’s remarks?

    Pablo (99243e)

  88. Because he’s watching us break our military and our bank on a fool’s errand, that’s how.

    Accepting the premise for the purpose of argument, that makes him better off how? He’s entertained? I don’t imagine he’s laughing much these days.

    and now you’re excusing Bush for basically not even trying anymore.

    That’s just nonsense. If you think we’re not hunting these guys, you’re just not paying attention.

    When was the last time AQ pulled off a splashy attack, other than in Iraq?

    Pablo (99243e)

  89. Oh, BTW, Falwell is dead, and TUCC services, much like Hagee’s, are distributed via cable networks across the country. And it seems the new Rev Otis Moss is a chip off the old Wright block.

    Pablo (99243e)

  90. Levi has created his own reality down in his parents basement.

    JD (cc8862)

  91. LN Smithee (way back before the latest Levi- breach and subsequent flood of invective). It’s true, I am using a loose definition of conspiracy-ie. any group that gets together to make a plan of action. I’m assuming no cloak and dagger went into the ad I was referring to…. well….. actually, since Karl Rove is still out there, who knows?

    EdWood (c2268a)

  92. After seeing the clips of Rev. Wright, I thought he was somekind of nut. But yiu have to see the interview with Moyer so that you can actually hear the entire sections of those speeches, not just the clips. He is actually quoting a white ambassador to the UN in one of the clips. And in the other where he says gd America, he is it was a condemnation of the governments of powerful socities….(too long for me to type it all out)just watch the entire thing for yourself. It’s a shame that so-called credible news organizations wouldn’t tell or show the entire thing! See and hear for yourself! I will never believe anything they say on network tv again!!!!!!!!

    MARK (083cfb)

  93. Good for you MARK. Did they also provide cintext for his support for Hamas and Farrakhan?

    daleyrocks (906622)

  94. What Reverend Wright needs is not a vacation, but an agent to field all the speaking offers that he is about to be flooded with. Wright’s appearance tonight on Bill Moyers PBS Show may help make Wright a national superstar. This brilliant man could easily become one of the most popular ministers in America.

    Over 36 years, Wright built his Chicago congregation from 80 to 8,000 members. As a result of tonight’s Bill Moyers’ appearance, Wright will now have a congregation of millions. Wright’s successor, Reverend Moss, called Wright’s 90-second sound-bite TV treatment a “public crucifixion” and predicted that — after a crucifixion comes a resurrection. How true.

    Reverend Wright is about to capture the hearts of the American people in a way that no minister has ever done since the days of Billy Graham and Norman Vincent Peale.

    CJPR (fa00f2)

  95. I wholeheartedly agree that Rev. Wright should speak publicly whenever and wherever he can for the next 7 months.

    DRJ (a431ca)

  96. This is really, really sad. I couldn’t read half the comments because of the hatred they emanated. I did see the whole interview and I say bless him for trying to convince the bigots of the country that his words have been taken woefully far from their original context and used as a political tool against Obama. This is a good man. Even the best in our history have been defamed in their time. Just wait. You’ll see what history has to say.

    Karen (de9af1)

  97. Karen – As somebody pointed out on another thread, Obama is truly the Fairy Tale candidate and his supporters are really The Children.

    daleyrocks (906622)

  98. Daleyrocks,
    “Karen – As somebody pointed out on another thread, Obama is truly the Fairy Tale candidate and his supporters are really The Children.”

    Sometimes fairytales do become reality. Dont rule anything out. Anything is possible and sometimes it takes being a child to know that.

    love2008 (d2a57f)

  99. love2008 – I’m not ruling anything out. Children have dreams, but big people do too.

    daleyrocks (906622)

  100. Thank you PBS for showing the truth about Rev. Wright. Last night, I’ve watched the entire interview and I am very glad that I did. The mainstream media has totally distorted the truth about this man with sound bites and snippets. Rev. Wright has been more patriotic than anyone since he cares enough to speak the truth about the ugly side of Americans and for that he has been outcast and treated as a pariah. I have also learned that Rev. Wright had served as a cardiopulmonary technician in the U.S. Navy where he had assisted doctors operating on President Lyndon B. Johnson. Rev. Wright is truly a good decent man. FoxNews with their “Fair and Balanced Report” should be ASHAMED

    David Thiery (3908c2)

  101. Did you get the context of “The government lied about inventing the HIV virus as a means of genocide against people of color” David? Because I’d sure like to hear what it is. I’ll bet it’s super patriotic, huh?

    Pablo (99243e)

  102. David – This site is not PBS. Check you address book.

    daleyrocks (906622)

  103. It’s clear there are Obama supporters that leave supportive comments at websites on the internet whenever a bad story hits. In many cases, the comments are repeated verbatim at different websites. I think it’s the internet version of a plant at a campaign rally.

    DRJ (a431ca)

  104. Pablo – Hepatitis (HAV,HBV,HCV,HDV) been around since ancient times. Gee, I wonder why HIV virus only showed up during 1980’s. Could there be a drastic evolutionary occurrence happened during the 80’s or maybe something went wrong with an experiment?

    David Thiery (3908c2)

  105. IIRC, the research on HIV shows that it is endemic in the Simian population in Africa, and it jumped to the Human population sometime in the 70’s (?).
    The question has always been: How?

    Some seem to believe that it has to be a gross, governmental plan (conspiracy).

    Others would assume that it was just another cruel prank by Mother Nature, possibly aided by some kinky antics of man.

    If it is the former, it will eventually come out – just as we have learned of the CIA/LBJ/VRWC shenanigans causing the death of JFK (eh, we have learned about that, haven’t we?);

    If it is the latter, it is just another in a long line of cruel tricks that Mother Nature plays upon her children since the beginning of time.

    Another Drew (8018ee)

  106. David Thiery,

    Don’t you believe that new diseases can evolve over time? If you believe in human evolution, then I would think you also believe evolution impacts germs that cause disease.

    DRJ (a431ca)

  107. Could there be a drastic evolutionary occurrence happened during the 80’s or maybe something went wrong with an experiment?

    Do you know the answer to that question, David? Does Jeremiah Wright? Is there any reason to believe that the United States government was responsible for it, aside from that you can imagine it to be plausible?

    Let’s visit Wiki. Is there any reason that a nefarious US government theory isn’t there, but ought to be?

    Pablo (99243e)

  108. SARS didn’t show up until 2002. Whose genocidal experiment is that, David?

    Pablo (99243e)

  109. David Thiery – Along DRJ’s lines, are you arguing that all diseases have been invented by man? Or that there’s some endpoint beyond which diseases ceased formation or mutation?

    Your earlier statement seemed to be comparing disease formation in the past, with 1/10th the world’s population. Could the population increase possibly coincide with a corresponding increase in mutation and genetic anomaly?

    Apogee (4e1b69)

  110. Could there be a drastic evolutionary occurrence happened during the 80’s or maybe something went wrong with an experiment?

    Yeah. Something went wrong with an experiment. A social experiment. Activities that spread HIV stopped being punished in the ’80s.

    nk (284b49)

  111. Drew, DRJ, – I believe your knowledge of HIV virus is outdated.

    Today, scientists believe:

    More importantly, among the most respected of all HIV/AIDS origin theorists, the U.S. Government’s chief DNA sequence analyst at the Los Alamos Laboratory in New Mexico, Dr. Gerald Myers, reported with his colleagues that the origin of HIV could not have begun with “cut hunters” or other single isolated cross species transmissions (called “zoonosis”). He reported that genetic sequencing studies prove some “punctuated origin of AIDS event” took place during the mid-1970s giving rise, virtually simultaneously, to at least ten different HIV “clades” (or genetic subtypes) associated with ten different distinguishable AIDS epidemics in Africa alone. The most likely cause of this widespread bizarre zoonosis was some man-made (i.e., iatrogenic) event involving chimpanzees, this group reckoned

    David Thiery (3908c2)

  112. David – The oral polio vaccine theory that Meyers is fighting to defend?

    “Myers is among a minority of experts who support the continued investigation into the validity of the OPV theory. Most scientists support the theory that HIV jumped to humans from monkey hunters in the Congo. However Cribb, who will also be attending the Royal Society meeting, argues that studies – including those by the Pasteur Institute and the US Centers for Disease Control – have found no evidence of HIV or SIV in the pigmies who hunt monkeys in the Congo.”

    “Myers work is, as yet, not peer reviewed but he is due to present it at a UK Royal Society meeting on the subject to be held in September.”

    daleyrocks (906622)

  113. Furthermore:

    Dr. Leonard Horowitz, Harvard-degreed independent investigator, unearthed and reprinted stunning scientific documents and National Institutes of Health contracts proving that chimpanzees, contaminated with numerous viruses, were used to produce hundreds of hepatitis B vaccine doses administered to central African Blacks along with homosexual men in New York City at precisely the time Dr. Myers and colleagues claim the origin of HIV “punctuated event” occurred.

    David Thiery (3908c2)

  114. And just who was doing this Hep-B vaccine research?
    Who funded it?
    If it was the NIH, who wrote the funding authorization in which Congressional Cmte?

    Come on people, if we’re going to make accusations, put some names in play.

    Another Drew (8018ee)

  115. David – So what is the current status of the political/scientific debate over the origin of AIDS? My understanding is that it is not as clear cut as your post #111 made it sound.

    daleyrocks (906622)

  116. More examples in this thread of the harm that Wright does with his loony conspiracy theories.

    SPQR (7a788c)

  117. David, I don’t see any links to sources for this enlightening information. Why is that?

    U.S. Government’s chief DNA sequence analyst at the Los Alamos Laboratory in New Mexico, Dr. Gerald Myers, reported with his colleagues…

    He reported that genetic sequencing studies prove…

    The most likely cause of this widespread bizarre zoonosis was some man-made (i.e., iatrogenic) event involving chimpanzees, this group reckoned

    Reported where? When? Reckoned where? When?

    In scientific journals? Time magazine? The national Enquirer?

    Dr. Leonard Horowitz, Harvard-degreed independent investigator, unearthed and reprinted stunning scientific documents and National Institutes of Health contracts proving that chimpanzees…

    Unearthed from where? Who wrote the original documents? Where were they reprinted?

    Why has this not been widely reported? If what you say is true, it would be The Story of the Decade, if Not the Millenium. Why are we only getting such information from you?

    More importantly, why aren’t you citing any sources to any of this?

    Paul (266a05)

  118. What I don’t understand about the OPV theory is why only gay men were effected by the U.S. outbreak. Why were they the only ones to receive the Hep B vaccine in the 1970s? It’s part of the conspiracy that will be revealed I’m sure.

    daleyrocks (906622)

  119. Here is a paper that gives a little background of theory David brings up and turmoil it has created in the scientific community. Skimming it, it appears written by an OPV supporter, but I did not read closely.

    http://ro.uow.edu.au/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1086&context=artspapers

    There’s a lot of money at stake here. Proving the government caused AIDS could make/cost some people a lot of money.

    daleyrocks (906622)

  120. DRJ – Could you please check the filter. I submitted a comment that included a link explaining some of the backgound.

    Thanks

    [EDIT: Found it. It’s now #119. — DRJ]

    daleyrocks (906622)

  121. Another Drew – As requested:

    The Bionetics’s SVCP contract (NIH-71-2025), might also be persuaded to divulge valuable insights regarding this HB vaccine/origin of AIDS thesis. At that time, 1969, Dr. Robert Huebner was also a leader in this field on the esteemed National Academy of Sciences–National Research Council (NAS–NRC), that is, at precisely the time the Congressional Appropriations Committee heard testimony concerning the technical expertise available through the NAS–NRC for the U.S. Army’s development of AIDS-like viruses. At that time these viruses were referred to by military personnel in the Congressional Record as “synthetic biological agents.”

    Theories involving the CIA in the origin of AIDS have gained wide acceptance. Investigations by Dr. Horowitz focused on the CIA and the 1969 appropriations hearings in which the NAS–NRC was credited as the source of technical expertise for the U.S. Army’s development of AIDS-like viruses. At that time, biological weapons were of great interest to Nelson Rockefeller’s protégé, and Nixon administration National Seurity Advisor (NSA), Dr. Henry Kissinger. According to his biographer, and two previous CIA directors—William Colby and Richard Helms—Kissinger oversaw the CIA’s top secret biological weapons program called MK:NAOMI. Soon after becoming NSA, he ordered a review of such weapons capabilities

    References:

    NCI staff. The Special Virus Cancer Program: Progress Report #8 [and #9]. Office of the Associate Scientific Director for Viral Oncology (OASDVO). J. B. Moloney, Ed., Washington, D. C.: U. S. Government Printing Office, 1971 [and 1972]. Note: This is a very hard publication to find. Few library data bases have it listed, including the NCI Library at Fort Detrick. It is available through the Davis Library, The University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, Government Documents Department Depository, Reference # HE 20.3152:V81. The Litton “support services” contracts that included primate supplies are found on pp. 187-88 and 326-327 of the reports. Litton’s list of mutant viruses, including retroviruses, and other experimental infectious agents including AuAg is found on pp. 279-280 and 284 of Project Report #8, of 1971; for additional documentation on hepatitis and herpes experimentation in Uganda before 1971 see: Higginson J and Muir CS. Epidemiologic program of the International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC). In: The National Cancer Program and International Cancer Research, National Cancer

    David Thiery (3908c2)

  122. For those interested, many of these articles are available over the Internet. Just do a Google Search on (origin HIV). i.e. http://www.originofaids.com/articles/early.htm

    But for the record, there is no proof of any of these articles is credible. Meaning, even I am skeptical.

    David Thiery (3908c2)

  123. Drew, DRJ, – I believe your knowledge of HIV virus is outdated.

    Today, scientists believe:

    David – Then would you comment from #111 above be better worded that there are now competing theories about the origin of HIV to which some scientists have given credence?

    daleyrocks (906622)

  124. Note that recent research into the origin of AIDS finds references to disease / symptom descriptions that match AIDS back into the ’50’s – well predating the supposed biowarfare research mentioned above.

    SPQR (7a788c)

  125. Thanks, David.

    Paul (266a05)

  126. I was so glad to hear Rev. Wright’s words in full. To me, Rev. Wright really spoke about the Gospel as it should be carried out in our lives….If i was in his area, i would be happy to be a member of his congregation….

    pat luck (2d830e)

  127. Here we go again …

    DRJ (a431ca)

  128. Daleyrocks (123)- I am an open-minded person. I would accept there are many competing theories.

    David Thiery (3908c2)

  129. #126

    Sure, but if you’re white, good luck being treated like a human being…

    Scott Jacobs (d3a6ec)

  130. #96:

    I couldn’t read half the comments because of the hatred they emanated.

    Oh dear. I thought you were referring to the Rev. Wright’s comments; but now I see that you are referring to the comments denouncing his hate speech.

    This is a good man.

    No, this is not a good man. This is a man who espouses the very bigotry that you would believe others guilty of.

    EW1(SG) (84e813)


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