Patterico's Pontifications

5/19/2020

Study Finds Surgical Masks Can Significantly Reduce Transmission Of The Coronavirus

Filed under: General — Dana @ 11:44 am



[guest post by Dana]

We’ve been discussing the viability of mask-wearing and whether wearing one can actually help limit the transmission of coronavirus. There is a report out today which confirms that surgical masks can significantly reduce the spread of infection:

Experiments by a team in Hong Kong found that the coronavirus’ transmission rate via respiratory droplets or airborne particles dropped by as much as 75% when surgical masks were used.

“The findings implied to the world and the public is that the effectiveness of mask-wearing against the coronavirus pandemic is huge,” Dr. Yuen Kwok-yung, a leading microbiologist from Hong Kong University who helped discover the SARS virus in 2003, said Sunday.

The study was released by the department of microbiology at The University of Hong Kong, and local media state it will be published in the Clinical Infectious Diseases medical journal, suggesting it is yet to be peer reviewed. The sample size was also reportedly in the double digits.

The team’s conclusion comes after months of conflicting information from world health bodies concerning masks. The World Health Organization has questioned their effectiveness outside of medical settings, while governments including those in the U.S. and U.K. initially urged citizens to leave them for health worker use, only to later make a U-turn and encourage widespread mask-wearing.

Dr. Yuen pointed out the reality of the moment: “Up to this stage, we do not have a safe and effective vaccine. What remains practical is still either social-distancing measures or wearing masks.”

With that, as we know, President Trump has refused to wear a mask when he is around others. According to reports last week, when the president toured Owens & Minor Inc. medical equipment distribution center in Pennsylvania, he did not wear a mask. And later, when he was in Phoenix, Arizona, touring a Honeywell International Inc. mask factory, he did not wear a mask (although he later claimed that the head of Honeywell said he did not need to). However, this week he is scheduled to tour Ford’s ventilator assembly plant in Ypsilanti, Michigan, and the automaker requires everyone to wear a mask:

“Our policy is that everyone wears PPE to prevent the spread of COVID-19,” Ford spokeswoman Rachel McCleery said. “We shared all of Ford’s safety protocols, including our manufacturing playbook, employee pamphlet and self-assessment survey with the White House ahead of time and in preparation for this trip.”

Will he or won’t he?

–Dana

173 Responses to “Study Finds Surgical Masks Can Significantly Reduce Transmission Of The Coronavirus”

  1. Hello.

    Dana (0feb77)

  2. Experiments by a team in Hong Kong found that the coronavirus’ transmission rate via respiratory droplets or airborne particles dropped by as much as 75% when surgical masks were used.

    Note the emphasized words — surgical masks.

    Most people I have seen seen use cloth masks. Which for many is all that is available. So that is probably better than nothing, but I suspect that surgical masks are better.

    Bored Lawyer (56c962)

  3. “Will he or won’t he?”

    He absolutely won’t.

    Davethulhu (6c08ad)

  4. Good catch, Bored Lawyer. I’ve updated post title to reflect the distinction.

    Dana (0feb77)

  5. With that, if surgical masks can reduce the transmission by 75%, does it not follow then that any regular multi-layered face mask, or an N95 (which we’ve purchased at Lowe’s for sanding purposes), would be beneficial as well?

    Dana (0feb77)

  6. If I know I’m going to a store or place where I could be within six feet of another human being, I’m taking my mask and will put it on if need be. It’s a courtesy to others. That’s the new reality, probably until we get a vaccine.
    A doctor friend of mine said pretty much the same thing about transmission as the folks at HKU.

    Paul Montagu (543d91)

  7. Then there’s this. You can cherry-pick whatever “data” and “studies” you want to support your hypothesis, but the fact remains that no one has done a controlled scientific study yet that could disprove or prove that hypothesis. And here we are. And here too. A lot of “may”s and “might”s and “maybe”s.

    Gryph (08c844)

  8. Paul Montagu,

    Where I am, we are required to wear masks in stores. I read that in Dana Point, a woman wasn’t allowed into Gelson’s Market because she wasn’t wearing one, and she threw quite the fit.

    Dana (0feb77)

  9. I’ve worked in a number of factories in my career. They often have rules about safety and apparel.

    One factory had rules about not wearing anything that might scratch the paint on the final product. There was a big push to get everyone focused on mutilation protection and asking anyone not wearing it to please leave the factory floor. Once a VIP came for a tour. They and the rest of the group didn’t really follow the rules. About 15 minutes into the tour a line worker stopped them, interrupted the VIP while they were talking to the plant manager and told the whole group (somewhat rudely) that they needed to leave the area until they were properly using mutilation protection. It was hilarious.

    Time123 (66d88c)

  10. Then there’s this. You can cherry-pick whatever “data” and “studies” you want to support your hypothesis, but the fact remains that no one has done a controlled scientific study yet that could disprove or prove that hypothesis. And here we are. And here too. A lot of “may”s and “might”s and “maybe”s

    Yes, that’s life. Not everything is based on a controlled study. Educated guesses are sometimes the best we have.

    There is good reason to think masks reduce the spread of the disease. It is logical. And the downsides are minimal. So that is why you should do it..

    Bored Lawyer (56c962)

  11. N95 or similar quality would be effictive. Cloth or cotton, not so.

    1DaveMac (16cd0f)

  12. Here, a simple practical explanation that anyone can understand. (Mildly NSFW, depending on where you work.)
    http://twowheeledmadwoman.blogspot.com/2020/05/face-mask-use-explained.html

    Kishnevi (dfca54)

  13. 10. I look at it this way, BL: It’s a modern-day version of Pascal’s wager.

    First, let’s stipulate that wearing masks does no harm. That may not be true, but I’ll accept that premise on its face.

    If wearing a mask does slow CoViD-19 transmission, I am placing myself at greater risk by not wearing one. If it does not, then people who wear masks do so out of fear and uncertainty with absolutely no benefit to themselves.

    And here’s where the Pascal’s Wager analogy tends to get a little tenuous: If people who are wearing masks are slowing CoViD-19 spread, are they not decreasing my risk of catching it from them regardless of if I choose to wear a mask or not? And don’t those who also refuse to wear masks knowingly expose themselves to whatever risks they choose?

    If I am going to err, I am going to err on the side of living life as normally as possible. I know that nursing homes are hotbeds of vulnerability; that’s why I don’t go visit my ailing great uncle with or without a mask. I have said it dozens of times over the last two months and it bears repeating: it is not fair to attempt to guilt me into acting on fear or uncertainty, and I think it absoultely is unamerican in the truest sense of the word “American” to set policy based on fear or uncertainty, whether that policy be federal, state, county, or municipally-based.

    Gryph (08c844)

  14. Masks effective against bacterial infections agents are not as effective against viral infectious agents. Significant difference in size of the agent.

    1DaveMac (16cd0f)

  15. Gryph, I don’t have time to find the article but I thought the main benefit of my wearing a mask wasn’t that It protected me, it was that it kept me from protecting others? If that’s correct, and again how does that change your analysis?

    Time123 (66d88c)

  16. Gryph, you have one important detail wrong.

    The reason people should wear masks is not to make it harder to pick up other people’s germs. It does that, a little bit, and the best masks (N95 type) are meant to do it, but not the general types you see people on the street wearing.

    It’s to make it harder for you to spread the germs you already have.

    See, wearing a mask doesn’t protect you from others. It protects others from you.

    Kishnevi (dfca54)

  17. If I am going to err, I am going to err on the side of living life as normally as possible. I know that nursing homes are hotbeds of vulnerability; that’s why I don’t go visit my ailing great uncle with or without a mask. I have said it dozens of times over the last two months and it bears repeating: it is not fair to attempt to guilt me into acting on fear or uncertainty, and I think it absoultely is unamerican in the truest sense of the word “American” to set policy based on fear or uncertainty, whether that policy be federal, state, county, or municipally-based.

    The easy rules of going out in the age of Covid, stay home unless you need (not want) to leave, wear your pants, wear your shirt, wear your gloves, wear your mask, and wash your hands, it’s literally the least you can do.

    The people wearing the mask are protecting YOU from THEM, in response, you put them, and you at risk for your CONVENIENCE by not following simple, common sense rules. You break the chain of protection, you are the a-hole that ruins it for everyone.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  18. I read that in Dana Point, a woman wasn’t allowed into Gelson’s Market because she wasn’t wearing one, and she threw quite the fit.

    I saw that tweet, Dana. Now that was a Karen.
    King County is requiring masks, too, but Snohomish County isn’t there, thank goodness. Still, much as I can’t stand ’em, I wear one so that folks around me will feel safe.

    Paul Montagu (543d91)

  19. 15. Keeps me from *infecting* others, you mean? Again assuming a mask’s absolute efficacy (which is very much uncertain and in doubt either way), the only way to ensure no spread of the virus is to force everyone to wear masks all the time, at home and in public, while awake and asleep. If there is any percentage of people that aren’t wearing masks, they represent a non-zero (but vanishingly small) risk.

    16. See above^

    17. And there we go with the “common-sense rules.” So many assumptions about things that are really by any scientific measure, unknown or uncertain. “Deadly and debilitating viruses.” “Masks are to protect others.” All of these things are assumed, primarily on the basis of fear of a virus which I simply do not fear. To a degree I suppose you could accuse me of acting out of convenience or my own self-interest, but what’s left to do about that aside from invoking the Stasi? You people who think I’m a selfish p***k aren’t changing my mind, and I’m certainly not changing yours. And here we are.

    Gryph (08c844)

  20. 19. Might I add, I’m not trying to really change any minds. I think some of the CoViD-19 countermeasures are silly, but in invoking my right to do things that look stupid to others, I would defend that right in anyone who wishes to wear masks and/or self-isolate. I hope you’ll at least give me that: I’m just as willing to defend other people’s rights as I am my own, even especially when I disagree with them you.

    Gryph (08c844)

  21. Also worth noting, you won’t catch me throwing a fit at the doors of any business that requires a mask because I simply won’t patronize them if they require one. You don’t have to raise a ruckus to make a point.

    Gryph (08c844)

  22. All of these things are assumed, primarily on the basis of fear of a virus which I simply do not fear

    There is actually evidence to back up those ideas. And your assumption of moral superiority, Mr Man Who Does Not Fear, merely belittles the peoplr who disagree with you.

    Kishnevi (de48de)

  23. 19. Might I add, I’m not trying to really change any minds. I think some of the CoViD-19 countermeasures are silly, but in invoking my right to do things that look stupid to others, I would defend that right in anyone who wishes to wear masks and/or self-isolate. I hope you’ll at least give me that: I’m just as willing to defend other people’s rights as I am my own, even especially when I disagree with them you.

    You understand you are promoting coexistence of 2 incompatible things. No one is telling you you can’t be an a-hole. You are 100% admitting you know that you are putting people at risk because you don’t want to FEELZ like your constitutional right to not wear pants are being infringed.

    So, you are free to be an a-hole, and boy are you being free with it.

    It’s much worse that you know what the basic common sense solution is, yet you reject it because it inconveniences you. That’s worse than just being a moron. You are actively choosing to put peoples lives at risk, for zero benefit. What benefit do you get for not wearing your pants (mask), how does it advantage you? or is the a-holiness the actual benefit?

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  24. 23. Hey, what happened to “no personal attacks?”

    But seriously, your assertion that I know what I am risking is another manifestation of your fear of the virus which I do not share. Those who do not wish to share in that risk are free to avoid going out in public with people who do not wear masks. I come from a red state where, thank goodness, there is indeed no one telling me that I have to wear a mask or isolate myself. Unfortunately, there are people and places who are very much into the whole “The Lives of Others” mode just jumping on every chance they can to snitch on their neighbors.

    22. There is also evidence to back up my claims. Hence, my overarching claim of “scientific uncertainty” As for my sense of “moral superiority,” I do consider myself morally superior to simpering cowards who think the death of a centenarian is some sort of unspeakable tragedy.

    Gryph (08c844)

  25. 24. And no, that “simpering cowards” line was not a personal attack, unless you see it that way because you are one.

    Gryph (08c844)

  26. Gryph, I should have written “the benefit of masks is that it reduces the chances I will infect others by a meaningful amount.”

    What I’m trying to get at is under what circumstances do you think it would be reasonable to mandate masks?

    For the sake of argument let’s say that wide spread mask use would likely reduce the rate of transmission by about 30%. Not because it protected me, but because it protected others from me, if I were sick.

    Does that change your analysis?

    Is there any change in the assumptions that would? If it were highly likely? Almost certain? If it were 50%, 75%?

    Is there a difference in your opinion between government mandating it as a public health issue and businesses mandating it as a policy similar to no shirt no shoes no service?

    I’m not trying to change your mind or argue with you, I’m curious to understand your thinking and i don’t think I’ve done a good job asking my question.

    Time123 (235fc4)

  27. Given the infection rates shown in the study, repeated exposure to infected individuals over time guarantees infection unless additional precautions are taken. If an individual is in a confined space with repetitive contact with many people, plastic barriers and/or face shields would be required. If you are in a county with a very low infection rate and you are not a member of an at risk element of the population, masks are not necessary. My county has exactly 3 confirmed cases since Feb, even after increased testing. People with masks are very rare here.

    1DaveMac (16cd0f)

  28. Hello? Trump doesn’t need to wear a mask. He gets tested for CV-19 on an almost daily basis. He doesn’t have it. If you don’t have CV-19, you don’t need a mask. Capiche? As for masks being needed. If you stay 6 feet away, you don’t need a mask because your droplets can’t travel that distance. Further, to be effective, you need the right kind of mask, and it has to worn in the correct manner. Many “homemade” masks and face covering aren’t reducing the spread of droplets enough.

    rcocean (846d30)

  29. It’d been an interesting study of liberal/left psychology why they all seem to be fanatical about locking everything down, wearing masks, social distancing, etc. There are liberal/leftists in counties with almost zero CV-19, yet they run around with masks on, and demand everything stay locked down.

    Some of the liberal/leftists in my area are so absurd, they wear masks INSIDE THEIR CARS. Others, wear masks while jogging or biking. Like that does any good. But that’s the liberal bourgeois.

    rcocean (846d30)

  30. 26. The circumstances that would make me think it reasonable to wear a mask would only exist under the certainty provided by a controlled scientific study, submitted for peer review. Not realistic, I know.

    And even assuming that widespread mask use would reduce the transmission rate by as much as 30% (there is NO reason whatsoever to believe that it does, but I’ll go with it), I’m not sick. I have not been any kind of sick for almost six months, and the last time I was sick, I had a raging head cold somewhere round-and-about the second week of December-last. I’m not coughing, I’m not running a fever, I am not having a hard time breathing, and just for s**ts and giggles, I even check my pulse-ox every so often with my dad’s thumb unit (beautiful as ever; I might be a heart attack waiting to happen, but not today).

    Businesses that mandate wearing a mask simply won’t get my business while they do. I’m not about organizing boycotts and I won’t be the screeching harpy/Karen at the front door complaining about being forced to wear a mask, but even in a town the size of the one I live in, there are workable alternatives to just about anything I genuinely need.

    Gryph (08c844)

  31. BTW, these are the same people who want legalized MJ, advertising hard Liquor on TV, were cool with Mayor Pete’s proposal to legalize Heroin and Cocaine, and want to let crooks out of jail. And lets not secure the border, because having sick illegal aliens come here is Fun!

    Yet, they’ll wear masks AND stay 6 feet away AND want everything locked down. And don’t forget to wash down that shopping cart and put the vegatables in little plastic bags.

    The liberal/left mind is bizarre.

    rcocean (846d30)

  32. I am buying stock in mask making companies now!

    asset (e1b8d4)

  33. I could turn that question back. Under what circumstances would those wearing masks (and encouraging me to do so) start to question the need to do so?

    Gryph (08c844)

  34. That’s clear. I don’t understand why you feel so strongly about not wearing a mask but it’s clear that you do.

    Time123 (235fc4)

  35. Notice the Headline

    SURGICAL masks.

    rcocean (846d30)

  36. 34. I think my feelings of moral superiority are somewhat overstated by those here that do fear the virus, but I find masks uncomfortable and gross. They fog up my glasses and make it difficult for people to recognize me, even as they make it difficult for me to recognize people I know. I am taking measures that I do find reasonable, even though they have restricted my access to visiting healthy family members. You shouldn’t really need a reason, or even have to be “reasonable” when it comes to exercising freedom.

    Gryph (08c844)

  37. It’d be nice to know what percentage of the population in a particular areas has CV-19 before we all run around wearing surgical masks. And also how much more protection it will provide over the current social distancing guidelines.

    And even with all that, you’re still left with the fact that almost no healthy person under the age of 50 dies from CV-19. The death rate is below 1% for that group. Its no more dangerous than the annual flu. The US Military had 4,000 CV-19 cases and 7 deaths.

    rcocean (846d30)

  38. @33, If the data showed to a reasonable level of certainty that wearing a mask wasn’t helpful. Say if there were several pairs of similar regions that differed only by mask usage and there was no difference in outcome I’d think it was silly and probably not do it. Or if there were studies of the transmission mechanism that showed wearing a mask didn’t help.

    I don’t like wearing them and would prefer not to. But as a public health matter it seems like a good policy in areas where CV19 is present or where it’s reasonable to try and stop the spread. If the mayor of a resort town with no cases said they were requiring masks it would make sense to me.

    Time123 (235fc4)

  39. 35. Hahah. Then there’s that. Surgical masks are notoriously hard to come by if you don’t, you know, actually work in a surgical theater. That’s why people started wearing cloth masks to begin with. Assuming that surgical masks are a reasonably sufficient way to slow spread of CoViD-19, most mask wearers don’t wear them and can’t get them.

    Gryph (08c844)

  40. 38. I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree. People will be wearing masks, cloth, surgical, N95 and otherwise, long after CoViD-19 ceases to be any kind of credible threat. And I think that’s what bothers me the most about this whole business.

    Gryph (08c844)

  41. And even assuming that widespread mask use would reduce the transmission rate by as much as 30% (there is NO reason whatsoever to believe that it does, but I’ll go with it), I’m not sick. I have not been any kind of sick for almost six months, and the last time I was sick, I had a raging head cold somewhere round-and-about the second week of December-last. I’m not coughing, I’m not running a fever, I am not having a hard time breathing, and just for s**ts and giggles, I even check my pulse-ox every so often with my dad’s thumb unit (beautiful as ever; I might be a heart attack waiting to happen, but not today).

    Yet, given Covid19’s ability to be asymptomatic but infectious, you might have it and be infectious even though you appear to be in perfect health.

    Kishnevi (48b463)

  42. You shouldn’t really need a reason, or even have to be “reasonable” when it comes to exercising freedom

    This is absolutely true. But as has been pointed out in other threads living in a society has placed some restrictions on all of our rights and freedoms. Right to worship as I like, but can’t take LSD as part of the service or exceed the fire code in the church. Right to bear arms, but not destructive devices. Right to vote, unless I’m a felon. Right so swing my arms, but can’t strike other people.

    Time123 (235fc4)

  43. 41. It’s just as likely to be asymptomatic in me as it is in anyone else who doesn’t work in a meatpacking plant or nursing home. Hence, my lack of fear. Hell, even centenarians are surviving through it!

    Gryph (08c844)

  44. @39 fair enough.

    Time123 (235fc4)

  45. 42. True that. All of those limitations come on the heels of the “consent of the governed,” which is clearly and increasingly being lost in Democrat-run states. Just because I accept some limitations on my rights does not mean I must accept them all because “rule of law,” particularly when that “law” comes by way of executive orders, as so many lockdowns and mask orders have been.

    Gryph (08c844)

  46. 44. Hey Time123. Good discussion. Civil discussion. Thank you! Some of our fellow commenters could take a hint from you. 😉

    Gryph (08c844)

  47. Hence, my lack of fear. Hell, even centenarians are surviving through it!

    And more than a few people who aren’t anywhere near being 100 years old have not survived it.

    But what I am objecting to is your view that people who disagree with you for very rational reasons are “cowards”. You’re insulting a large proportion of the human racs by doing so.

    Kishnevi (48b463)

  48. 2. Bored Lawyer (56c962) — 5/19/2020 @ 11:48 am

    Most people I have seen seen use cloth masks. Which for many is all that is available. So that is probably better than nothing, but I suspect that surgical masks are better.

    No a cloth mask is better (and besides they don’t need to fit.

    https://healthnewshub.org/health-news-hub/top-news/cloth-mask-vs-surgical-mask-vs-n95-how-effective-is-each

    A study published in April in the Annals of Internal Medicine found that a cloth mask offers more protection than a surgical mask for people nearby. Researchers, using a measurement for viral loads, found 2.42 log copies per milliliter on the exterior of surgical masks and 1.85 log copies per milliliter on the exterior of cloth masks of infected patients at two hospitals in Seoul, South Korea. [I don’t understand how that’s a measurement of effectiveness.]

    In the study, four infected patients coughed five times into a petri dish wearing no mask, then a surgical mask, then a cotton mask and, finally, one more round without a mask. Without a mask, the patients’ viral loads measured 2.56 log copies per milliliter….

    Researchers swabbed from the each mask’s interior and exterior. Notably, most swabs from the inner-mask surface were negative. All swabs from the outer mask surface were positive. That’s the science behind recommendations that people refrain from touching mask exteriors. Remove a mask without touching the exterior. If cloth, throw it in the washing machine for an old-fashioned cleaning.

    It’s the outer surface of the patient’s own mask! And what’s special about the mask, as opposed to any article of clothing? Anything that’s been in the vicinity of lot of viral particles will have ral particles on them – 99% of them damaged enough so as not to transmit infection.

    An N95 mask is better than both of them – but of course that’s still only supposed to offer a 95% reduction in viral load. There is something else too that can be used in hospitals, a respirator something.

    There is a shortage of N95 masks only because they want them to be for one time use only. They can however, be sterilized with hydrogen peroxide vapor, which almost all hospitals have.

    Also note: N95 masks, like gas masks, only work for adult women or men without beards, and must be put on right to get the advantage of them.

    Sammy Finkelman (07f19d)

  49. BTW here’s the key point from a survey of CV-19 in NYC:

    ..we can observe how, out of 15,230 confirmed deaths in New York City up to May 12, only 690 (4.5% of all deaths) occurred in patients under the age of 65 who did not have an underlying medical condition (or for which it is unknown whether they had or did not have an underlying condition).

    Underlying illnesses include Diabetes, Lung Disease, Cancer, Immunodeficiency, Heart Disease, Hypertension, Asthma, Kidney Disease, GI/Liver Disease, and Obesity [source]

    rcocean (846d30)

  50. Masks don’t work

    Jim (4c234f)

  51. 50. Ditto, Jim.

    47. Well, if you’re going to wear a mask to protect others — and you just go right on ahead and keep telling yourself that — don’t do it on my account.

    Gryph (08c844)

  52. People have no idea of fit. N95 mask is uncomfortable if you wear glasses.

    You anti Trump people are so predictable

    Jim (4c234f)

  53. 52. If you fit an N95 mask properly, with or without a CPV, hypercapnia is practically inevitable at some point with long-term usage.

    Gryph (08c844)

  54. The N95 mask was uncomfortable but okay until it got warm. Wearing it outside for more than 10 minutes in 80 degree weather was awful. Can’t imagine what it would be like in 90+ temps with high humidity…

    Hoi Polloi (dc4124)

  55. 54. If you wear it long enough with a proper fit, you’ll eventually start breathing out more oxygen than you breathe in. That’s a condition that the medical experts call “hyperventilation.” And if you don’t get fresh air soon enough, you’ll faint.

    Gryph (08c844)

  56. Three or four folks here have said surgical masks are “unavailable”. Maybe six weeks ago they were. Now they’re not. A little pricier than they used to be? Yes. Reaganomics, you know. But available. Likewise, you can now buy purported N95 masks at Menard’s (and Lowes’s).

    nk (1d9030)

  57. If you wear it long enough with a proper fit, you’ll eventually start breathing out more oxygen than you breathe in. That’s a condition that the medical experts call “hyperventilation.” And if you don’t get fresh air soon enough, you’ll faint.

    How odd, then, that entire teams of medicos wear them all the day long and never suffer what you assure us is inevitable…

    Huh.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  58. If you wear it long enough with a proper fit, you’ll eventually start breathing out more oxygen than you breathe in. That’s a condition that the medical experts call “hyperventilation.”

    This is all incorrect.

    It is impossible to “breathe out more oxygen than you breathe in”. Your body does not produce oxygen under any circumstance, it consumes oxygen.

    Also, hyperventilation (“over-breathing”) is breathing too rapidly or too deeply, not oxygen deprivation.

    Dave (1bb933)

  59. Industrial workers wear both N95 and surgical masks. All day long while doing manual labor. They breathe just fine.

    nk (1d9030)

  60. If you wear it long enough with a proper fit, you’ll eventually start breathing out more oxygen than you breathe in. That’s a condition that the medical experts call “hyperventilation.” And if you don’t get fresh air soon enough, you’ll faint.

    We get it, you don’t want to be inconvenienced by wearing a mask. You’re just lying about why, this is a fantasy delusional reason. You might as well claim that alien moon bats only target those wearing masks. Crazy, foolish, stupid.

    Just admit it, you don’t care about anyone else and you just don’t want to do it.

    Stay home unless you have to go out, maintain social distance, wear your pants, wear your shirt, wear a mask, wear gloves or frequently wash your hands, it’s common courtesy. Don’t be the a-hole, wear a mask.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  61. *shrug* If I wear a mask thinking it helps and I’m wrong, I’ve harmed no one. If I don’t wear a mask thinking it’s useless and I’m wrong, I could have harmed any number of people. I’d rather do less harm than more.

    Nic (896fdf)

  62. Gryph, I should have written “the benefit of masks is that it reduces the chances I will infect others by a meaningful amount.”

    What I’m trying to get at is under what circumstances do you think it would be reasonable to mandate masks?

    For the sake of argument let’s say that wide spread mask use would likely reduce the rate of transmission by about 30%. Not because it protected me, but because it protected others from me, if I were sick.

    Does that change your analysis?

    Is there any change in the assumptions that would? If it were highly likely? Almost certain? If it were 50%, 75%?

    Is there a difference in your opinion between government mandating it as a public health issue and businesses mandating it as a policy similar to no shirt no shoes no service?

    I’m not trying to change your mind or argue with you, I’m curious to understand your thinking and i don’t think I’ve done a good job asking my question.

    Time123 (235fc4) — 5/19/2020 @ 1:13 pm

    I’d use the same standard we use for AIDS patients (everywhere but California). If you have a positive diagnosis, you must wear a mask.

    That’s it.

    NJRob (783b88)

  63. Off-topic: RIP Annie Glenn, champion the speech-impaired

    The story of how she overcame her impairment is really interesting.

    Dave (1bb933)

  64. I’d use the same standard we use for AIDS patients (everywhere but California). If you have a positive diagnosis, you must wear a mask.

    We made that choice in the 80’s. Condom use increased dramatically, reducing the transmission of HIV. Then HIV turned into a nuisance not deadly, so “the kids” use them much less now.

    Masks (condoms) work, it’s not magic, it’s not even news, any argument that it doesn’t work is only from liars and fools.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  65. I’ve been wearing an N95 mask (one of a set I rotate) for the last two months. After using it I seal it in a baggie and use a different one next time. The virus can’t survive as long as I make it wait (over a week on average). Got them in January when Trump said “the US was safe from Covid.” It was a better than even bet he was lying.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  66. RIP Annie Glenn

    Complications of Covid-19.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  67. 61. No. There ya go, Klink. No mask for this healthy individual. Now how do you think I should be punished?

    Gryph (08c844)

  68. 59. Actually, hyperventilation is a symptom of hypOcapnia, as opposed to hypercapnia. And yes, you are actually breathing out more oxygen than you take in because of the imbalance of bicarbonate ions in your blood.

    Gryph (08c844)

  69. No. There ya go, Klink. No mask for this healthy individual. Now how do you think I should be punished?

    When you get sick and you infect your friends and loved ones, they’ll be the ones who are punished for your stupidity and lies. That’s the problem with your selfishness, you are willingly and intentionally, with malice aforethought, putting others at risk because you don’t want to be inconvenienced.

    Also, you claim to be healthy, have you had a test? Are you an asymptomatic carrier? How can you know? Your idiotic thought virus is potentially contagious, just your posts on the internet pose a danger, you don’t actually have to be physically present.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  70. When you get sick and you infect your friends and loved ones, they’ll be the ones who are punished for your stupidity and lies.

    Or, nothing will happen, you vindictive, rejection-obsessed harpy. Give Sheriff Roscoe P. Coltrane a call if it bothers you so much.

    Factory Working Orphan (eebac7)

  71. 70. I am not sick. No one I’ve come into contact with has gotten sick, including my dad who has heart problems and three artificial joints. I’ll test if and when such a time arrives as I have reason to worry fear that I could be sick. That time is not now.

    Note to all the shrieking Karens out there: I am not dead-set against testing as I am wearing a mask. When someone at my wife’s workplace tested positive, I asked my wife if she thought I should go get tested. We agreed that it would not be necessary unless her test came back positive, which it didn’t.

    Gryph (08c844)

  72. 71.

    Or,</strike [N]othing [probably] will happen, you vindictive, rejection-obsessed harpy. Give Sheriff Roscoe P. Coltrane a call if it bothers you so much.

    Factory Working Orphan (eebac7) — 5/19/2020 @ 5:22 pm

    FIFY, Orphan. 😉

    Gryph (08c844)

  73. Now how do you think I should be punished?

    Oh, I bet life has that process well under way.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  74. 71.

    Or, [Probably] nothing will happen, you vindictive, rejection-obsessed harpy. Give Sheriff Roscoe P. Coltrane a call if it bothers you so much.

    Factory Working Orphan (eebac7) — 5/19/2020 @ 5:22 pm

    Whoops. FIFM

    Gryph (08c844)

  75. 74. Given the actual chance of dying of Coronavirus and my actual chance of being sickened by it, I’m not too worried. Come and talk to me next year if when I’m still alive.

    Gryph (08c844)

  76. Life is a LOT bigger and more complex than CV19. As I said, I’ll bet the process is well under way.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  77. Funny that all you shrieking Karens out there think I’m being stupid and putting lives in danger, but no one seems willing to want to get the police involved. ‘Merica. And Hail South Dakota!

    Yeah, I love living in one of the handful of states left that actually make such insouciance on my part easy. B-)

    Gryph (08c844)

  78. 77. Wow. So now we have a shrieking Karen invoking Karma. I think that pretty much speaks for itself, right there. B-D

    Gryph (08c844)

  79. When I go out to the grocery store, I guess from now on I’ll be flattered that so many of my fellow shoppers are concerned for my health and safety (even though most of them still aren’t wearing masks)…

    Gryph (08c844)

  80. My old Prunetucky home…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  81. Off-topic:

    Shrieking Karens, this is a government you trust to enforce “common-sense” “emergency” health measures.

    Gryph (08c844)

  82. Gryph, I have to say you have me confused. You live in South Dakota which has no governor’s order, no lockdown, no masks, no shuttering of businesses. What’s your dog in this fight? With people who live in places where the people actually outnumber the coyotes and have an exponentially higher risk of infection than you do?

    nk (1d9030)

  83. 83. That’s actually fair question, nk. And I’m glad you asked it.

    I’m not real happy with every aspect of how Governor Kristi Noem has handled things here. As is true of most politicians, I’m pretty sure that if she knows at some point she made a mistake in assuming “emergency powers,” she would never admit it. That said, I feel she is among the best, if not the best of a bad bunch.

    But Raggy was right about one thing: Life is a whole lot bigger than this one virus, or even this one pandemic. I am a South Dakotan, but I am also an American. I like to think that in the greatest tradition of those willing to sacrifice their lives, their fortunes and their sacred honor, even if I stand to lose nothing, I can and ought to defend others’ freedom even when I have nothing to gain by it.

    Gryph (08c844)

  84. 85. Also worth noting, South Dakota has no statewide lockdown, but two local city council candidates were inspired to get into politics and run against one of the three council members who voted for one of the most restrictive and earliest municipal business closures in the state.

    Gryph (08c844)

  85. So, Moana, you’re back to unabashed name-call and personal attacks. It never takes long, does it?

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  86. 86. What’s wrong, Raggy? Do you see yourself in a post when I address it to shrieking Karens? If you do, that’s not my problem.

    Gryph (08c844)

  87. I like to think that in the greatest tradition of those willing to sacrifice their lives, their fortunes and their sacred honor, even if I stand to lose nothing, I can and ought to defend others’ freedom even when I have nothing to gain by it.

    Because like all red-shirt waving virtue signalling “people who tell untruths”, you have this delusion that you are the hero in some fringe nutter drama.

    Always good to smoke you, Moana.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  88. 88. OIC. So it’s okay for you to call names…gotcha. 😉

    Maybe you missed the, “I stand to lose nothing” part of my post, but I don’t consider myself anyone’s hero. I just don’t give a flying fig if doing right is popular.

    Gryph (08c844)

  89. 77. Wow. So now we have a shrieking Karen invoking Karma.

    What’s funny is that you’ll lie like this where everyone can read your lies. Not bright…

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  90. I thought Karens were the ones demanding to speak to the manager and complain that they didn’t want to wear a mask? I’m losing the plot. What’s the short hand we’re using to demean people we don’t agree with on this?

    Time123 (f5cf77)

  91. And, I only asserted my defense of the freedom of others as an answer to what my motivation was. I am soooo not tooting my own horn. Even if I was, you can plainly see it’s not making me very popular with the shrieking Karen crowd.

    Gryph (08c844)

  92. Observing your conduct isn’t “calling you names”.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  93. 91. I’m using “Karen” in the context of the type of person who would rat you out to the authorities for not wearing a mask, or surfing alone on a closed beach, or walking by yourself on a nature trail, Etc. There’s a lot of “nuh uh!” and “No, you are!” involved in the back-and-forth, but it’s getting to be one of my favorite backhanded insults.

    Gryph (08c844)

  94. 93. Well, observing your conduct isn’t calling names either, Karen. If you don’t want to be around people that aren’t wearing masks, no one’s forcing you any more than they’re forcing me to wear one.

    Gryph (08c844)

  95. Even if I was, you can plainly see it’s not making me very popular with the shrieking Karen crowd.

    Or anyone who values reality or being truthful. REALLY losing ground there…

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  96. 96. I’m pretty sure calling me a “liar” when you know better *is* indeed calling me names, Karen. I’m surprised that after all the times people have tried to explain it to you, you still don’t know what a “lie” actually is.

    Gryph (08c844)

  97. 96. Oh look! Raggy says I’m “losing ground.” LOLOLOL Try again, Karen.

    Gryph (08c844)

  98. Gryph (08c844) — 5/19/2020 @ 6:35 pm
    I’m pretty sure no one here would “rat out” anyone for any of those things.

    They probably wouldn’t even do what my younger cousin does. She goes over and yells at total strangers for not wearing a mask. I don’t see anyone here doing that.

    Kishnevi (e85727)

  99. 99. Here? I genuinely wonder sometimes.

    Not every screeching Karen is a benign busybody, not even away from the net.

    Gryph (08c844)

  100. 99. And by the by Kish, the idea of ratting out individuals for spending time outdoors alone maskless isn’t some kind of abstraction. It has happened. It does happen. Commenters here have just barely stopped short of wishing death on me for my militant indifference. I fear what may be “the new normal” far more than I fear any virus.

    Gryph (08c844)

  101. R.I.P. Annie Glenn. 100

    Wife of America’s legendary astronaut John Glenn. He conquered space; she conquered stuttering- and ‘maintained an even strain’ through a lifetime married to her childhood sweetheart, a national hero recognized worldwide.

    Ad Astra, Annie.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  102. 102. Godspeed, Mrs. Glenn.

    Gryph (08c844)

  103. They probably wouldn’t even do what my younger cousin does. She goes over and yells at total strangers for not wearing a mask. I don’t see anyone here doing that.

    He’s trying to get someone to pat him on the head for taking the brave stance that he’s not wearin’ a stinking mask because freedom, or something. He’s not arguing that wearing a mask won’t reduce the spread, he’s saying Covid-19 is not “deadly” and/or “debilitating”, so masks are not needed.

    Well, that’s the lie from a few days ago, but it wanders depending on what his FEELZ are from day to day.

    For you to try to change my mind, and for me to try to change yours, it is all a monumental waste of everyone’s time. I’m going to continue to live my life as normally as I can under the circumstances, the commentariat here is going to continue to consider me a “selfish,” “inconsiderate,” “liar” who is “lacking in common sense.” So be it

    .
    He’s bravely standing up for some principle, and he doesn’t need to convince us of it, as he says over and over and over and over and over again. But definitely doesn’t need convince us.

    This is like the saddest version of “virtue signalling” known, if the virtue was punching yourself in the nads.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  104. Gryph @100. That’s the gun talking. It’s always wanting to shoot something. A knife, on the other hand, is just as happy if you only whittle.

    nk (1d9030)

  105. 105. You got me there, nk. I have to admit, I LOLed.

    Gryph (08c844)

  106. Shrug* If I wear a mask thinking it helps and I’m wrong, I’ve harmed no one. If I don’t wear a mask thinking it’s useless and I’m wrong, I could have harmed any number of people. I’d rather do less harm than more.

    Nic (896fdf) — 5/19/2020 @ 4:37 pm

    To me it’s an awful lot like using trash cans, driving defensively, etc. If everyone does it, the benefits to the country are clear. We all get to live in a better place. And on an individual level, it’s more convenient to cut people off, litter, and not be uncomfortable with a mask on all day. We should make the right choices.

    I also am convinced there’s a propaganda effort to prolong the pandemic in the USA by spreading BS. I’m not sure what the solution is to this problem. The USA needs a better BS meter, clearly.

    Dustin (d59cff)

  107. 107. We should make the right choice. Sometimes it’s clear what the right choice is. It’s not always so clear, particularly where so much uncertainty is involved.

    Gryph (08c844)

  108. 104. What makes you screeching Karens think that I’m doing this because I think I deserve some sort of “attaboy?” I swear to God, it seems like the worst responses I get to my posts are the posts that answer someone else’s question about my thoughts or motivation. Believe me, if I sought any kind of adulation, I wouldn’t be looking for it in the backwoods of some Commie-fornia prosecuting attorney’s blog’s comment section. I wouldn’t find it here if everyone agreed with me to a man.

    I’m not wearing a mask. Certain of my fellow commenters here think I should. I’d love nothing more than to just let it go at that without being called a grandma-killer, a liar, or any number of calumnious epithets.

    Gryph (08c844)

  109. We should make the right choice. Sometimes it’s clear what the right choice is. It’s not always so clear, particularly where so much uncertainty is involved.

    What’s uncertain? Has Covid killed 93k people dead from it in 3 months? Is Covid contagious? Do masks keep you from expectorating uncontested?

    What’s uncertain, be specific?

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  110. I swear to God, it seems like the worst responses I get to my posts are the posts that answer someone else’s question about my thoughts or motivation. Believe me, if I sought any kind of adulation, I wouldn’t be looking for it in the backwoods of some Commie-fornia prosecuting attorney’s blog’s comment section. I wouldn’t find it here if everyone agreed with me to a man.

    A) You’re free to not be here, because you’re probably not going to get the little pat on the head you’re hoping for. B) Backwoods commie-fornia, Pat lives in LA, not a lot of woods there.

    I’m not wearing a mask. Certain of my fellow commenters here think I should. I’d love nothing more than to just let it go at that without being called a grandma-killer, a liar, or any number of calumnious epithets.

    Then you can let it go, but you can’t because you FEELZ you need recognition for being brave, or something. If you want to lie less, feel free. If you want to be less of a threat to grandma, wear a mask, have some common sense. If you don’t want to be called out for being an a-hole, a-hole less.

    Or, take your own council and don’t put up with it, Infowars is still there for you, maybe 4-8-chan.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  111. The choice has always been clear, just like it was 3300 years ago.

    I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live

    Kishnevi (41758f)

  112. 111. The backwoods is the comment section here, not Pat’s home-away-from-blogging. If I wanted adulation, I’d start a Youtube channel or some kind of podcast where I’d always be the center of attention, a la Rush Limbaugh.

    110. As for what’s uncertain, I think that for all the death counts that have been revised *downwards*, you’d be a little less trusting of what the “experts” tell you. This makes me more certain that the “deadly” and “debilitating” nature of CoViD-19 is bunk than I was before I learned about it.

    Gryph (08c844)

  113. 112. I don’t find cowardice to be very embracing of life as I understand it, but YMMV.

    Gryph (08c844)

  114. 115. Why are you listening to those fringe nutters, John?/

    Gryph (08c844)

  115. Aaaaannnd, we’re back to Gryph calling everyone names and asserting lies.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  116. I guess Dr. Blaylock belongs with the other fringe nutters on Infowars or something./

    Gryph (08c844)

  117. 117. Lies? There you go again…

    Gryph (08c844)

  118. Editor’s note: Many in the medical field are disputing Dr. Blaylock’s claims and do not see wearing a mask as a serious risk to healthy people, although people who have breathing difficulties, such as those with COPD, smokers, etc., may be adversely affected. Nor do the masks weaken the immune system, according to these medical professionals. While most concede that hypercapnia is possible, they say it is highly unlikely, especially with cloth masks.

    Gryph is SOOOOoooooo selective in what he wants you to believe!

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  119. 120. I think that’s perfectly fair to point out. But to pretend that every credentialed medical professional agrees, and the ones who don’t are unworthy of serious consideration…? That sounds more like a lie to me than anything I’ve asserted here.

    Gryph (08c844)

  120. Stop calling it cowardice. If you think it’s cowardice, then you’re a complete idiot who deserves all the contempt and derision the world can put on you, because you’re insulting the majority of humankind. You have no respect for others, why should anyone respect you?

    Kishnevi (41758f)

  121. I don’t find cowardice to be very embracing of life as I understand it, but YMMV.

    How is it “cowardice” to put a mask on when I’m within six feet of others? I don’t do it out of my own fear, I do it allay others’.

    Paul Montagu (543d91)

  122. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8324017/Colorado-health-officials-fire-saying-drunk-man-died-coronavirus.html

    Gryph linked…again…to a SINGLE story out of Colorado involving an Indian who died of alcohol poisoning.

    That’s got me convinced, yesirreeeee.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  123. Let me put it to you another way: Could Doctor Blaylock be wrong? Absolutely. But Raggy and his fellow screeching Karens would have you believe that there are no dissenting voices.

    Hmm…where have I heard that before?

    Gryph (08c844)

  124. Gryph (08c844) — 5/19/2020 @ 7:41 pm

    You’re the one claiming everyone who disagrees with you is either an irrational coward or someone trying to enslave you on the pretext of protecting you from a disease you think is not deadly or debilitating.

    Kishnevi (41758f)

  125. 124. Jesus H. tapdancing Christ…do you really believe that’s an isolated incident of death toll inflation? If you do, I have a bridge to sell you.

    Gryph (08c844)

  126. But to pretend that every credentialed medical professional agrees…

    And nobody has. So, whats that word we use when someone fails to be truthful?

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  127. Jesus H. tapdancing Christ…do you really believe that’s an isolated incident of death toll inflation? If you do, I have a bridge to sell you.

    Well, you’ve cited it TWICE, so the pickins’ are pretty slim, huh?

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  128. 126. Cowardice is perfectly rational to the coward. I can understand things I disagree with. But if any officials are inflating death tolls to any degree, why hold up X number of deaths to me as a reason I should wear a mask?

    Gryph (08c844)

  129. 129. It’s one of the most egregious individual cases. It’s not the only one.

    Gryph (08c844)

  130. Let me put it to you another way: Could Doctor Blaylock be wrong? Absolutely. But Raggy and his fellow screeching Karens would have you believe that there are no dissenting voices.

    That’s another of your “failures to be truthful” thingies. Full of them tonight, huh?

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  131. 128. Good. You’ll believe the screeching Karens, and I’ll believe the fringe nutters. Now that we’ve agreed to disagree (and I’m still not wearing a mask in public), we can go our separate ways. CUL8R, Karen. I’m done with this thread.

    Gryph (08c844)

  132. It’s one of the most egregious individual cases.

    Why?

    How many are there?

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  133. But if any officials are inflating death tolls to any degree, why hold up X number of deaths to me as a reason I should wear a mask?

    And here’s the irrational smoked out nicely again. Thanks, Gryph!

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  134. Are Masked Lockdowns Un-American? – John Tamny, RCMarkets
    There’s Something So Effete, So Un-American About Masked Lockdowns
    . . . All of which raises a basic question about the lockdowns and the masks: their effectiveness aside, along with the view among some that they’re not terribly healthy, isn’t the bigger story that they’re not very American? Really, what does the rest of the world think? And doesn’t it kind of matter what others think? Would Robert Mitchum have ever consented to wearing a mask out of fear of a virus? Can anyone seriously imagine John Wayne putting on a mask? As for social distancing, the Duke’s commanding, intimidating presence ensured that none would come too close to him. And the idea that some business owner would tell a mask-free Wayne to put one on, and that some hyper-alarmist patron would tell him to keep 6 feet away is just too silly for words.
    Sorry, but with the United States there’s a perception about it. Americans are rough around the edges, a little bit high strung, and in the stereotype held by all-too-many, more than a bit manly. There’s a reason Marlboro is the world’s biggest selling cigarette brand. When people buy the cigarette they’re buying much more than just a smoke. They’re buying a masculine American ideal. So are the buyers of Budweiser’s red, white and blue can. It’s much more than the King of Beers. There’s underlying truth in all stereotypes.
    Americans don’t quarantine out of fear of viruses, nor do these rugged individualists uniformly don masks to protect themselves. Instead, Americans are the solution to whatever the problem is; always too busy and productive to be held back by shelter-in-place orders and fears of N-95 shortages.

    A better name for the COVID-19 masks – By Douglas Flint, American Thinker
    . . . Everywhere along open paths and sidewalks, people were walking, jogging, running, and pedaling furiously, all with masks on. Some of the masks had grown so large that they covered from the chin to just under the eyes. And then it dawned on me: “FACE DIAPER!”

    . . . “What’s it to you if some people choose to wear face masks?” Because something this absurd cannot continue into the summer heat unless it becomes a mandate. What will I do if the governor mandates that to work or go out in public, I must wear a mask?
    . . . you can’t maintain a state of fear very long without visual cues. We were told that dump trucks would be hauling the bodies out of hospitals to be buried in mass pits in Central Park as the hospitals disintegrated into living hells. None of this happened, so “The Mask” has become a symbol to represent the perpetual fear and horror that cannot and must not end until Trump is removed from the White House.

    Syllabucks, CONTRARIAN (97c12d)

  135. And yes, you are actually breathing out more oxygen than you take in because of the imbalance of bicarbonate ions in your blood.

    LOL.

    Dave (1bb933)

  136. I don’t understand why it’s cowardice to protect others from potential infection, but OK.

    I wish you all would stop using “Karens”. About 20 yrs about my aunt suggested that two of my cousins should hook up when they were in the same city and I winced and explained to her that while “hook up” meant get together in the 70s and 80s, it means get together now and I was pretty sure she didn’t mean they should have sex. Y’all are giving me the same wincing feeling.

    Nic (896fdf)

  137. Neurosurgeon Says Face Masks Pose Serious Risk to Healthy People

    https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/megan-fox/2020/05/14/neurosurgeon-says-face-masks-pose-serious-risk-to-healthy-people-n392431

    John (0dd617) — 5/19/2020 @ 7:37 pm

    Apparently RT (a Kremlin controlled news outlet) is putting a lot of this out there. Russia, meanwhile, strictly enforces facemasks. Why would Russian trolls and PJMedia (but I repeat myself) want the USA to avoid easy, basic, risk-free measures that would shorten and lessen the duration of the pandemic? Gee golly.

    Dustin (d59cff)

  138. There’s now an Editor’s Note on top, with links, saying that Blaylock is full of borscht (digested), but the original article also remains.

    nk (1d9030)

  139. You know, this study is basically trivial.

    The percentages have nothing to do with real life.

    It is not even about masks, but curtains.

    Sammy Finkelman (07f19d)

  140. But if any officials are inflating death tolls to any degree, why hold up X number of deaths to me as a reason I should wear a mask?

    This declaration by Gryph is so loopy it deserves some explication and expansion.

    If ANY officials are inflating death tolls to ANY degree, the issue of CV19 being deadly is called into question. If a doctor in India mistakes the cause of death of ONE person, the whole “deadly” deal is out the window in the mind of Gryph. Those death counts are all suspect. And not a little suspect, but totally suspect.

    If ONE coroner in Italy made a bad call on ONE death, CV19 can be said by Gryph to be not deadly, and anyone who says different is a liar and a coward.

    Since ONE Indian drank himself to death in Colorado rather than die of CV19, in Gryph’s “reasoning” CV19 is not deadly OR debilitating, and wearing a mask is useless and the act of a coward who lives in fear. Besides, it’ll make you keel over because…oxygen or something.

    Now, I won’t say that Gryph is a fringe nutter. I can rely on Gryph to say it eloquently for us.

    Thanks, Gryph!

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  141. Would Robert Mitchum have ever consented to wearing a mask out of fear of a virus?

    Absolutely!

    Can anyone seriously imagine John Wayne putting on a mask?

    Sure. He wore masks in several pictures. He loved his family.

    And the idea that some business owner would tell a mask-free Wayne to put one on, and that some hyper-alarmist patron would tell him to keep 6 feet away is just too silly for words.

    No, that whole piece is too silly for more words.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  142. John Wayne is a great example because a lot of the people saying wearing a mask is cowardly and unmanly also carry guns around.

    They think they have the gun to protect themselves and others. These days, I bet a lot of them imagine how they would handle an active shooter at their church or supermarket. But when it’s time to actually protect others around them without looking like a badass, by wearing a folded t-shirt over their mouth, they say that’s too weak and cowardly. So these gun owners who won’t wear masks never really cared that much about protecting others. they care a lot more about validating their manhood, about feeling like something they actually aren’t.

    Truth is I don’t care that much. I just think it’s fascinating how dumb folks are these days.

    Dustin (d59cff)

  143. What will I do if the governor mandates that to work or go out in public, I must wear a mask?

    Depends (see what I did there with the stupid “face diaper” meme!).

    Your choices are:

    1. comply (which does not negate other options below)
    2. employ civil disobedience, being prepared to eat the consequences
    3. protest
    4. lobby
    5. sue
    6. elect another governor

    But from my recent experience, the governor’s mandate is unnecessary. You can’t get in to see ANY kind of medico (physician, optometrist, dentist, osteopath, chiropractor, etc.) without wearing a mask.

    The VA won’t let you in any hospital or clinic without screening you and you wearing a mask.

    “The Mask” has become a symbol to represent the perpetual fear and horror that cannot and must not end until Trump is removed from the White House.

    And there you have the admission of another fringe nutter; this whole mask thang is a dark conspiracy only aimed at keeping us in fear until T-rump is removed from office. It’s all about the Orange Raccoon.

    Bollocks.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  144. Wearing a mask is cowardice is you are doing because of social pressure, or conformity, even though you know there’s no serious scientific reason to do so. We’ve flattened the curve, and in most of the USA, there was almost no CV-19 to begin with. Reason to wear a mask in Small Town Wyoming? None.

    There are places where masks could be useful and required. But I’m seeing people wearing masks while jogging and biking or INSIDE THEIR OWN CARS. That my friends is either stupidity, or conformity. Aka cowardice.

    rcocean (2e1c02)

  145. Eventually CV-19 will be conquered by new treatments, a vaccine (not a sure thing) or herd immunity. We need to open up and get on with our lives. We’re not going to all die if we get CV-19, in fact the current death rate is less than 1% for those under 65.

    rcocean (2e1c02)

  146. I don’t understand why it’s cowardice to protect others from potential infection, but OK.
    I wish you all would stop using “Karens”. About 20 yrs about my aunt suggested that two of my cousins should hook up when they were in the same city and I winced and explained to her that while “hook up” meant get together in the 70s and 80s, it means get together now and I was pretty sure she didn’t mean they should have sex. Y’all are giving me the same wincing feeling.

    Nic (896fdf) — 5/19/2020 @ 8:49 pm

    …the same could be said for the verb “fck with” – in the late 1900s, it meant you were mentally, verbally or physically harming someone. In this century, it means, roughly, “to hang out with”

    urbanleftbehind (2641dd)

  147. Here’s a happy thought!

    What if we could reopen the economy if we all wore a mask at work (where it made sense) and in areas like stores, practiced social distancing, and wore gloves when that made sense?

    Not a big “ask” to revive our economy, huh? Why, who would not be eager to do that for the sake of the country? I can’t imagine “…a soul so dead…” who would blanch at that opportunity.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  148. Reason to wear a mask in Small Town Wyoming? None.

    well, if Kanye West decides to restart his religious revival concerts in the state where he now owns multiple ranches, I wonder what the house rules will be for attendees. Such a concert, heavy on gospel (to the exclusion of his old hip-hop material), would be a veritable spittle factory of the kind that’s been blamed for many localized outbreaks.

    urbanleftbehind (2641dd)

  149. F***ing Millennials don’t even know their own language, that’s what it is, so they make up their own words, and give their own meaning to old ones, and then go and vote for Hillary and Trump, and raise the price of avocados, and I can’t even …!

    nk (1d9030)

  150. That my friends is either stupidity, or conformity. Aka cowardice.

    Too funny coming from a slavish T-rump myrmidon!

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  151. You would think MI would have tons of empty buildings from a certain legacy industry’s contraction and its butterfly effect on population. Here, we commandeered the main convention center’s great hall for a total of 37 patients, when there was probably a lot of empty buildings from CPS closures alone (rightly so, 2 recently closed hospitals in suburban Cook County were turned into Covid19 treatment centers).

    urbanleftbehind (718699)

  152. At the time of the first V, all the damn shows were set in Los Angeles, on the fumes of the Dragnet-65 to Chips continuum among other (what we would call today) Universes.

    urbanleftbehind (718699)

  153. Hill street blues was ny no so was cagney and lacey

    Narciso (7404b5)

  154. Hill street,according to its creator Steven Bochco, was an amalgam of Buffalo, Pittsburgh and Chicago. As a kid I thought it was NJ or Philadelphia.

    urbanleftbehind (718699)

  155. “…the coronavirus’ transmission rate via respiratory droplets or airborne particles dropped by as much as 75% when surgical masks were used.”

    Masks work. Social distancing works. Testing is very beneficial. We won’t have to wait for a vaccine to open up the country if we utilize these three things and a little common sense.

    So what is the President doing? Taking and promoting hydroxychloroquine, ridiculing social distancing and denying the shortage of testing. Of course.

    noel (4d3313)

  156. mr. president trump is visiting a ford plant today where everybody wears masks. he will, too. or the little shop steward will toss him out with a flea in his ear. that way he’ll have a friend.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  157. And, another thing, a narcissist cannot be expected to wear a mask.

    noel (4d3313)

  158. A narcissist knows more than the doctors or the generals. Do not confuse him with a VIP. He is an OIP…. the Only Important Person.

    noel (4d3313)

  159. So that makes cuomo murphy newsom whitmer ghouls then.

    Narciso (7404b5)

  160. From a link:

    “I think we have to all recognize that we’re not moving beyond COVID-19,” Los Angeles mayor Eric Garcetti announced last week. “We’re learning to live with it. We’ve never been fully closed, we’ll never be completely open until we have cure.”

    We have the cure. It would be more accurate if he said “until the cure is approved by the Food and Drug Administration.” (a few people could still lose their lives)

    https://www.biopharmadive.com/news/coronavirus-antibody-drug-trials/577778

    Regeneron, Eli Lilly, Amgen and Vir Biotechnology are leading an increasingly competitive race to develop therapies that could give people short-term protection from the coronavirus, or help treat those who are exposed or infected. And they could be more potent than the current standard of care, Gilead’s antiviral drug remdesivir, which seems to help hasten recovery from COVID-19 but only modestly so.

    “These medicines may be the best chance for a meaningful near-term success,” former FDA commissioner Scott Gottlieb recently wrote in an op-ed in the Wall Street Journal.

    Because these are in trials, and aiming for FDA approval, none of this is probably available for compassionate use. (because who would rather take a 50% chance of placebo rather than a 100% chance of the real thing?) So the FDA has to clamp down on compassionate use, (or the companies do that in their own interest in getting people to enroll in a clinical trial) and on demand for it, which it usually does by lying and by rewarding obscurity.

    This is referring to the injection of antibodies.

    If by a cure Garcetti means the elimination of this disease from the wild, that is very hard. It was achieved only with smallpox in 1977 after many years, (and if it ad delayed a few years it would not have been possible because of AIDS because in the end they were injecting many people with the same equipment) and we are almost there with polio, and it probably depends on the co-operation of the Taliban or similar groups..

    If he means eliminate it from Los Angeles, that would require the maintenance of travel restrictions and the acceptance of a case from time to time..

    Sammy Finkelman (07f19d)

  161. The only reason these companies publicize anything at all is because of the stock market, or to raise money; and to avoid charges of insider trading – even if there are no plans b insiders to buy stock, it’s safer to make the news public)

    And because it would be a serious financial fraud to make up a cure, you can almost safely bet that the it works, and that the evidence that it works is much stronger than they let on. Theranos is an exception.

    Sammy Finkelman (07f19d)

  162. @158. Right. Those in the know, know. BTW, ‘Hill District’ was/is a Pgh., flashpoint, still.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  163. GOP fronts ‘pro-Trump’ doctors to prescribe rapid reopening

    Republican political operatives are recruiting “extremely pro-Trump” doctors to go on television to prescribe reviving the U.S. economy as quickly as possible, without waiting to meet safety benchmarks proposed by the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention to slow the spread of the new coronavirus.

    The plan was discussed in a May 11 conference call with a senior staffer for the Trump reelection campaign organized by CNP Action, an affiliate of the GOP-aligned Council for National Policy. A leaked recording of the hourlong call was provided to The Associated Press by the Center for Media and Democracy, a progressive watchdog group.
    ….
    Tim Murtaugh, the Trump campaign communications director, confirmed to AP that an effort to recruit doctors to publicly support the president is underway, but declined to say when the initiative would be rolled out.

    “Anybody who joins one of our coalitions is vetted,” Murtaugh said Monday. “And so quite obviously, all of our coalitions espouse policies and say things that are, of course, exactly simpatico with what the president believes. … The president has been outspoken about the fact that he wants to get the country back open as soon as possible.”
    ……
    Murtaugh said the campaign is not concerned about contradicting government experts.

    “Our job at the campaign is to reflect President Trump’s point of view,” Murtaugh said. “We are his campaign. There is no difference between us and him.”
    ……
    As several Republican governors moved last week to lift their state lockdowns, the National Ensemble Forecast used by the CDC to predict COVID-19 infections and deaths saw a corresponding increase. The CDC now forecasts the U.S. will exceed 100,000 deaths by June 1, a grim milestone that previously was not predicted to occur until late in the summer.
    …….

    RipMurdock (d2a2a8)

  164. “We are his campaign. There is no difference between us and him.”

    So they’re stupid and liars. Or stupid liars.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  165. Who says PPE can’t be fun? (with photo! h/t Drudge)

    ‘Hot’ nurse disciplined for wearing bra and panties under see-through PPE gown

    A nurse in Russia was suspended from the hospital where she worked in Tula, 100 miles south of Moscow, after she arrived at her shift in the all-male coronavirus patient wing with no clothing save for her skivvies under her transparent personal protective equipment.

    The unidentified staffer told her managers at Tula Regional Clinical Hospital that she was “too hot” to wear clothing underneath the head-to-toe vinyl gown, which protected her from contracting COVID-19. The incident was first reported by a local news outlet, the Tula Pressa newspaper.

    While there were reportedly “no complaints” from her patients, hospital chiefs punished the nearly nude nurse for “non-compliance with the requirements for medical clothing.” The nurse claimed she did not realize that her underwear was showing through the PPE.

    “No complaints” – heh.

    Dave (1bb933)

  166. Speaking of pandemic-wear (h/t Drudge again), let me offer the following mise en scène:

    Late one evening in lockdown-ravaged LA, our esteemed correspondent JVW, exhausted after a long day of guest blogging, stops in at a cozy piano bar for a nightcap.

    As the bartender hands JVW a glass of his favorite single-malt – neat, he glances down to the end of the bar to see – can it be?! – Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard, sitting alone and wistfully stirring a Mai-Tai with her finger.

    Without a second thought, JVW strolls over and confidently introduces himself. Slow dances and heart-to-heart conversation ensue, one thing leads to another, and before long our couple finds themselves rapidly disrobing in a nearby hotel room.

    Tulsi seductively peels off her skin-tight leather pants to reveal that she’s wearing…

    …this.

    Dave (1bb933)

  167. Talk about your…um…rooster block…

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  168. “He absolutely won’t.”

    Called it.

    Davethulhu (27c163)

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