Patterico's Pontifications

1/16/2020

All Is Well: 11 U.S. Service Members Were Injured by the Iranian Missile Strike

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 6:41 pm



I told you. Trump and his administration officials lie like they breathe:

Nearly one dozen American troops were wounded in Iran’s Jan. 8 missile attack on Iraq’s al-Asad air base. This week, they were medically evacuated to U.S. military hospitals in Kuwait and Landstuhl, Germany, to be treated for traumatic brain injury and to undergo further evaluation, several U.S. defense and military officials have confirmed to Defense One.

Senior military and Trump administration officials had said on Jan. 8 that 11 Iranian missiles had caused “no casualties, no friendly casualties, whether they are U.S., coalition, contractor, et cetera.”

In the past week, news organizations that were granted access to the base to film the damage and interview military personnel have reported that no Americans were killed, wounded, or “seriously injured.” But the New York Times reported on Monday that some personnel had been treated for concussions.

In a Jan. 16 statement, a spokesman for the U.S. military command in Baghdad said, “As previously stated, while no U.S. service members were killed in the Jan. 8 Iranian attack on Al Asad Air base, several were treated for concussion symptoms from the blast and are still being assessed.”

All is well!

UPDATE: Enjoy the coming redefinition of the word “casualties” (and the word “harmed”):

Good morning. I’m pleased to inform you: The American people should be extremely grateful and happy no Americans were harmed in last night’s attack by the Iranian regime. We suffered no casualties, all of our soldiers are safe, and only minimal damage was sustained at our military bases.

Liars. One and all.

149 Responses to “All Is Well: 11 U.S. Service Members Were Injured by the Iranian Missile Strike”

  1. Trump fans lied. Look, Iran killed a lot of their own people on accident, and it’s plain enough this is a war that would consume a lot of life and accomplish absolutely nothing. Trump might tweet like a tough guy, but he’s a quitter.

    I really do not like the idea that when Iran shoots missiles at our bases we respond with nothing though. That is extremely dangerous. A whole lot of security concepts on this planet are based on the idea that if you were to attack our soldiers we would retaliate. Trump failing to do that was Iran’s (reasonable) calculation.

    and no, I don’t think brain injuries are minor things. But they bravely signed up to serve, and thye knew deploying to this region would be dangerous. That is terrible but all I’m asking is that our leaders be willing to defend them. Of course, Trump was once asked by his country to fight with them, and he chickened out.

    Dustin (b8d6d1)

  2. Because the brain is very complex, every brain injury is different. Some symptoms may appear right away, while others may not show up for days or weeks after the concussion. Sometimes the injury makes it hard for people to recognize or to admit that they are having problems.

    The signs of concussion can be subtle. Early on, problems may be missed by patients, family members, and doctors. People may look fine even though they’re acting or feeling differently.

    https://www.brainline.org/article/facts-about-concussion-and-brain-injury

    nk (dbc370)

  3. If they have concussions, doesn’t that mean something must have hit them in the heads?

    Not a few days later, but *during the attack*?

    And doesn’t getting hit in the head during a missile attack qualify as “harm”?

    Dave (1bb933)

  4. If they have concussions, doesn’t that mean something must have hit them in the heads?

    An invisible something. The blast. It alone can do it.

    nk (dbc370)

  5. I’ve even heard that it (the blast) can knock down a whole building like it was wrecking ball or something.

    nk (dbc370)

  6. In the vernacular: shockwave, an extreme over pressure

    Angelo (22026a)

  7. Explosions cause concussions via a blast wave.

    Military explosives put out a blast that moves at 9100 m/s

    They may have reported no injuries because at the time there was no blood etc.
    The headaches may have come later after the adrenaline wore off.
    My guess is all reported being ready to fight and defend, then afterward realized they’d been knocked around more than they realized

    steveg (354706)

  8. I am reminded strongly of LBJ and VietNam. The lies were so frequent and flagrant that the goodwill towards the government that had been built up after the Depression and WW2 was completely shattered.

    Boomers decided that anything anyone over 30 said was a lie. The cynicism that pervades our society stems from this experience.

    I know that I’ve been blase about Trump’s lies — he’s hardly alone and my trust in government has always been minimal anyway — but this is just a little bit over the top. They now lie about important things just to avoid the news cycle.

    Maybe they should all hang.

    Kevin M (19357e)

  9. I’ve been thinking about how Presidents go visit Walter Reed and how so many of the casualties are due to IED’s.
    So in talking with these maimed young people you’d soon hear that Soleimani was the guy behind the most effective IED’s.
    If I was President I’d kill the SOB too. There is no way I could look at the kids, their families in the eye and then go to the Oval office and let the guy skate.
    I’m for sure no 3-D chess player and I’d have the SOB droned, bombed, raided and I would not want him in Guantanamo where some idiot four years from now would release him.

    Trump would have been better off to just say *bleep* that guy. Now I can go visit at Walter Reed knowing I did my best for those brave men and women.

    steveg (354706)

  10. Trump fans lied.

    No, Trump and the entire DoD lied. Who the F cares what individuals say or believe, there are supposed to be rules for government servants. Even if the politicians lie, the military is supposed to be straight up. This failed in VietNam and the military suffered for a decade, until Reagan. Now the liars are back in power even there. This is so disheartening, and blaming it on “Trump fans” trivializes the problem.

    Kevin M (19357e)

  11. No, Trump and the entire DoD lied. Who the F cares what individuals say or believe, there are supposed to be rules for government servants. Even if the politicians lie, the military is supposed to be straight up. This failed in VietNam and the military suffered for a decade, until Reagan. Now the liars are back in power even there. This is so disheartening, and blaming it on “Trump fans” trivializes the problem.

    Kevin M (19357e) — 1/16/2020 @ 8:04 pm

    They aren’t mutually exclusive.

    Every Trump fan who claimed there were no US Casualties, and it’s easy to find that on this blog, lied.

    I’m not going to give them the ‘aw shucks he fooled ’em’.

    You are correct that it is a problem that our administration is corrupt and indeed that this is very serious. It is more serious that the American people do not care, so long as it’s their party doing the lying. If this happened during the Obama administration, my opinion would not be any different.

    Dustin (b8d6d1)

  12. So in talking with these maimed young people you’d soon hear that Soleimani was the guy behind the most effective IED’s.

    You are right.

    But no one is saying otherwise who isn’t absolutely insane.

    If you agree that not taking Salami out was insane, what does that make Trump, who didn’t do it for years? In fact, Trump really was passive with Iran during a lot of hostility… including shooting missiles at our bases.

    Trump didn’t grow a spine. That’s the problem. His Salami Strike was done because he feared the impeachment news more. Sure, a cornered cat might scratch a cockroach, and no one likes roaches, but it’s not like I’m going to use a cat to protect my family.

    Dustin (b8d6d1)

  13. Every Trump fan who claimed there were no US Casualties, and it’s easy to find that on this blog, lied.

    What is your definition of lied and can you find one of these examples?

    frosty (f27e97)

  14. What is your definition of lied and can you find one of these examples?

    For once I agree with Frosty.
    This is the first time I have seen any indication that any Americans were harmed in that attack.
    So I’d assume any Trumpnik was relying on the same information I had.
    DoD lied, but until now Trumpworld hasn’t.

    Kishnevi (e3cbf2)

  15. I don’t think the Trump fans lied, they were just ignorant. They were lied to, just like the rest of us. Now, continuing to defend the lies we were told is something entirely different.

    Nic (896fdf)

  16. Every Trump fan who claimed there were no US Casualties, and it’s easy to find that on this blog, lied.

    I rarely disagree with you, Dustin, but Trump is the one who made the claim. Sure, he lies like he breathes and we all should have been more skeptical, but there seemed to be supporting evidence, unlike many of his claims (like the one about how al-Baghdadi died crying and screaming). I don’t see the support for your claim here. I still love ya, man, and hope to meet you one day, and think you’re the best, and all that.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  17. I don’t think the Trump fans lied, they were just ignorant. They were lied to, just like the rest of us. Now, continuing to defend the lies we were told is something entirely different.

    This, I agree with, entirely.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  18. The defenseone story says “But the New York Times reported on Monday that some personnel had been treated for concussions.” I wondeed how such a report didn’t seem to get much traction, and read the linked story. The actual language from the story did not reference treatment, but evaluation: “No one was killed or wounded in the five barrages of multiple missiles that night, although several military personnel who were working were checked for concussions.” Defenseone was too generous in extending credit to the NYT.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  19. @10. Yep, that’s most likely it.

    “Beware the concussion! Beware the concussion!” – Oswald Cabal [Raymond Massey] ‘Things To Come’ 1936
    ________

    Look on the upside: they’re alive, could get Purple Hearts out of it– and most importantly, it got their azzes out of the Middle East. Meanwhile, how goes the funerals for the 176 dead on that jetliner which Trump’s decision led to getting blown out of the skies over Tehran?

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  20. This failed in VietNam and the military suffered for a decade, until Reagan.

    That would be news to the 241 US service personnel killed in the 1983 bombing of the Marine compound in Beirut, Lebanon– on Reagan’s watch.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  21. Every Trump fan who claimed there were no US Casualties, and it’s easy to find that on this blog, lied.

    Every Trump who said that was chumped by our lying president, IMO. They didn’t lie, they allowed themselves to be duped.
    And since words mean things, a war casualty is…

    …any person who is lost to a military unit by having died of wounds or disease, having received wounds, or having been injured but not mortally.

    By that standard, Trump told a bald-faced lie to the American people and our military. The thing is, I agree that he was right to not militarily respond after Iran fired their missiles. They already lost hundreds from Flight 752 and Suleimani’s funeral stampede. We didn’t need to pile on. Nevertheless, it doesn’t justify his dishonesty. As a certain commenter here says from time to time, presume Trump’s statements false until proven true.

    Paul Montagu (e1b5a7)

  22. Thank you, Paul. “Casualty” is loss to the unit. If these troops were still carrying out their duties, they were not (yet) casualties.

    nk (dbc370)

  23. As CIC, Trump is the responsible officer of government and if he had JFK-Bay-of-Pigs-balls he’d stop the buck and publicly take the responsibility for the error– but it’s so old news already in this 24/7 news cycle world, and he only relayed what the Pentagon told him in real time anyway– so we know where he’ll pass the buck– back across the Potomac to the brass hats where ‘all is well’ all the time– until it isn’t.

    Helsinki. He is so out of his league messing about internationally.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  24. Thank you, Paul. “Casualty” is loss to the unit. If these troops were still carrying out their duties, they were not (yet) casualties.

    Now do “harmed.”

    Patterico (115b1f)

  25. @4. Concussion wave from the blast[s]. steveg in #10 has the likely rationale. People can be in fender-bender car accidents and have no immediate symptoms of any injuries yet days or weeks later problems can surface.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  26. Now do “harmed.”

    Aw, do I have to?

    nk (dbc370)

  27. Harm:

    Physical injury, especially that which is deliberately inflicted.

    That just makes it all the more a lie by Trump.

    Paul Montagu (e1b5a7)

  28. Good lord, the lawyerly word parsing over a claim that was meant for Iranian consumption.

    Munroe (dd6b64)

  29. The government and military lies? WOW! When did that start happening?

    asset (1fbf41)

  30. Good lord, the lawyerly word parsing over a claim that was meant for Iranian consumption.

    Who knew that using commonly accepted definitions were “lawyerly word parsing”. Ha! I usually get those kinds of responses from liberals who’d rather redefine words to suit their liberal agendas.

    Paul Montagu (e1b5a7)

  31. There we go again, taking Trump literally when he’s playing 3-D chess.

    nk (dbc370)

  32. Every Trump fan who claimed there were no US Casualties, and it’s easy to find that on this blog, lied.

    Dustin, this is a personal attack on a lot of people.

    You assume that they knew the truth, but lied. You are casting aspersions on everyone who disagrees with you — not only are they wrong but you claim they are moral lepers (as opposed to your saintly self). Self-righteous a bit?

    You did NOT know the truth either (you simply assume that if Trump says “day” it’s night). So, if you had said that some people were injured, and it turned out that no one was, would you be the liar? Or would you have some other spin?

    Kevin M (19357e)

  33. Sorry, should have read on. Pat said it better. I just got angry and I regret that.

    Kevin M (19357e)

  34. That would be news to the 241 US service personnel killed in the 1983 bombing of the Marine compound in Beirut, Lebanon– on Reagan’s watch.

    Yes, but Reagan didn’t hide it, or say that 10,000 Palestinian terrorists were killed at the same time. LBJ and Westmoreland made silly body-count claims like that. Again and again. Reagan returned pride to the military that was lost in Vietnam. It’s a fact. Did he have feet of clay, perhaps. But a lot less than the 4 presidents before or after.

    Kevin M (19357e)

  35. Feet of clay? The iran-contra treason started with bill casey making a deal with the ayatollah to hold are hostages till after the 1980 election so reagan could win and to release them when reagan took office so it would look like he scared iran. Tricky dick used anna chenault topulled the same treason to win 1968 election.

    asset (1fbf41)

  36. Concussions are not “Wounds” – no one writes “Joe Blow QB was seriously wounded during a football game when he suffered a concussion”. Just because some Trump haters assume “All is well” we “Suffered no causalities” means we suffered no concussion, cuts, sprained ankles, or abrasions doesn’t mean Trump is a “Liar”. The Trump haters are just ASSUMING an expanded definition of “No harm” or “causalities” that Trump didn’t make.

    The Trump haters have done this every since August 2015. Trump says X. DNC-Media assumes he meant X+Y1, therefore Trump is wrong, a liar, etc. But he didn’t say X+Y1, he said X.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  37. If these people are “Wounded” because they were under medical treatment for a possible Concussion then I assume they will all be receiving purple hearts.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  38. A broken back technically isn’t a wound either, since it doesn’t break the skin, but I suspect someone with a broken back would be considered a casualty.

    A concussion may not be a “wound” but it does count as an injury.

    Nic (896fdf)

  39. @37. Yes, but Reagan didn’t hide it…

    No, he just quickly ‘changed the channel’– by invading Grenada.

    “Well, it seemed like the thing to do, sir.” – Thomas Highway [Clint Eastwood] ‘Heartbreak Ridge’ 1986

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  40. Trump lies… yes.

    But this criticism?

    I think confirmation bias is at works here…

    whembly (c30c83)

  41. I don’t see the support for your claim here.

    I agree with Patrick, but playing devil’s advocate: lying could be reasonably described as making a statement that one knows or should know is false.

    If I say that Donald Trump can walk on water, or that he’s a space alien from planet Remulak (sorry, Beldar), I do not have direct personal knowledge that those statements are false, but it is still a lie to assert them since I *should* know that that they are false.

    By the same token, any reasonable person *should* know that when Donald Trump makes a self-serving statement, it is very likely to be false, and therefore repeating such false statements is a lie.

    Another example: suppose someone writes a computer program to predict the weather. But the program is so bad, that it is observed to have a nearly 100% chance of making the wrong prediction. If it says the sun will shine tomorrow, it always rains, and vice versa. If you know this, and tell someone it will rain tomorrow, based on the program’s prediction that it will rain, it could be fairly called a lie. Donald Trump is the human equivalent of such a weather program whose output is anti-correlated with facts.

    Dave (1bb933)

  42. 1. This is not something that should be lied about and the difference between ‘unharmed’ and a dozen people got concussions is not a semantic distinction.
    2. I think calling people who believed Trump and official statements about this ‘liars’ is unfair.
    3. I have no evidence if Trump and his staff lied intentionally or were just incompetent, but I don’t see how anyone can reasonably deny that getting this wrong is a significant mistake.
    4. I think their failure to correct it and own/explain the mistake is reprehensible. I know that the fog of war exists but there are bunch of ways to have handled this better. For instance saying “There were no injuries and we’re thankful that everyone is unharmed but we are having people close to the blasts checked for Concussions and we’ll let you know what we find.” Would have been a better approach.
    Bottom line Trump and his administration have shown, yet again, that you cannot rely on the factual statements they make. Whether they’re lying or just incompetent there doesn’t seem to be anything too big or too small for them to be inaccurate about. He seems notably less reliable than other presidents in my lifetime. They’ve all been wrong. They’ve all said things that I think were lies. But the scope and scale of Trumps inability to be factually accurate is much worse.

    Time123 (6e0727)

  43. Concussions are not “Wounds” – no one writes “Joe Blow QB was seriously wounded during a football game when he suffered a concussion”.

    Nobody wrote that the orange said there were no “wounds”, either. What the orange said, and was quoted as saying, was “no Americans were harmed in last night’s attack by the Iranian regime. We suffered no casualties“.

    nk (dbc370)

  44. But the scope and scale of Trumps inability to be factually accurate is much worse.

    It’s easier to deal with make-believe than with reality, and Trump’s base would rather hear fairy tales than reports.

    nk (dbc370)

  45. @48, I’m trying to be as neutral in my assertion as possible.

    Time123 (f1b520)

  46. I rarely disagree with you, Dustin, but Trump is the one who made the claim. Sure, he lies like he breathes and we all should have been more skeptical, but there seemed to be supporting evidence, unlike many of his claims (like the one about how al-Baghdadi died crying and screaming). I don’t see the support for your claim here. I still love ya, man, and hope to meet you one day, and think you’re the best, and all that.

    Patterico (115b1f) — 1/16/2020 @ 9:33 pm

    Next time you’re in Austin you definitely need to hit me up, old friend!

    Trump’s lying, and the DoD’s lying, are amazing, even at this point. Kevin’s really got a point that this is a huge deal. I can understand focusing on that as the problem, but in my opinion it’s not. One reason being that it’s been steady and egregious lying, and steady and egregious covering for the liars, and at this point the people spinning everything know what they are doing.

    Gatewaypundit, for example, claimed “The missiles missed their targets. Many ended up in the desert or in nearby villages.”

    This wasn’t qualified in any way. One of his commenters explained:

    Great job, Mr. President. I’m really happy you are our commander in chief. Calm, cool and unphased.

    TRUMP 2020!

    That’s an opinion. It’s not a lie. And no matter what Trump does, or what the news is, about unemployment or Iran’s missiles landing in the sand, because Iran’s military were so intimidated by unphased President Trump they just didn’t have the guts to attack us, the real theme of all news is ‘My side is always doing this right, and your side is always doing this wrong.’

    Another commenter:

    At least Iran had a better fireworks display than Hillary 2016. Same outcome though – Donald wins.

    If our bases have just been struck, before the dust settles, too many people are out there insisting Trump’s steely resolve won. Like with NO COLLUSION, the real purpose of these lies is to set the narrative so that anyone asking questions is shut down, fighting against what ‘we’ve already known for ages’. When the casualties of Trump’s behavior are in the hundreds of civilians, Trump fans insist that saying we know warfare will lead to that is ‘Iran’s POV!’.

    It’s lying. If you don’t know something, you can’t just say you know it and hope it’s true, 100% of the time to favor your silly team, as a universal political strategy. Doing that is dishonest.

    The only real defense Trump fans have for insisting the missiles all missed, is that they have absolutely no way to figure out credibility from a Trump administration that has lied endlessly. I am simply rejecting that as another lie. It is not possible to collectively lie about everything like this on accident.

    Dustin (85808e)

  47. 2. I think calling people who believed Trump and official statements about this ‘liars’ is unfair.
    3. I have no evidence if Trump and his staff lied intentionally or were just incompetent, but I don’t see how anyone can reasonably deny that getting this wrong is a significant mistake.

    time123,

    I think the pattern suggests Trump’s administration lied proactively to cover up how much of a mess they caused. They wanted to find a way to save face when Trump’s bluff was called, our troops were hurt (which they obviously knew), and our base was hit (which we were told was a miss). The mess continued getting out of hand and civilians were dead. Better to just pretend all these missiles would miss, or the Iranians are afraid of attacking us. Both of these ideas are absurd on their face. Irans been attacking us for a while now, shooting down planes, committing piracy, and the Trump administration has certainly kept a tremendous amount of information about the scale of their actions from the American people. This isn’t even a theory. We know it for a fact.

    The only question is do Trump’s fans who insist and even drum beat on this stuff really believe it, or are they, by continuing to share the propaganda, even build it up, as an argument for a series of events that is deadly, being dishonest. I respectfully agree to disagree with you on that. At this point if someone is repeating anything a Republican politician is saying without skepticism and qualification, but rather with a pumped fist, I think they are doing so in bad faith.

    Dustin (85808e)

  48. @46 Agreed and it goes both ways. I don’t sign in to NYT so I can’t tell what extra details they provide. But the tone from the headline makes you think this involves more critical injuries that were obviously and clearly known at the time Trump’s statement was made. A concussion can be very serious and have long term effects so I’m not minimizing that but we don’t get that from the story. It seems a little oversold. Then you get unsupported statements from people who not long ago where on the credibility soapbox.

    @45 and @14; Congratulations, you are the reason everyone should be very skeptical of everything said by NeverTrump. This sort of stuff colors even good faith criticism.

    frosty (f27e97)

  49. I’ll take things that are obvious to everyone for $1000 Alex:

    I think they are doing so in bad faith

    Makes it hard to have any sort of productive conversation.

    frosty (f27e97)

  50. But the tone from the headline makes you think this involves more critical injuries that were obviously and clearly known at the time Trump’s statement was made.

    I don’t know what NYT headline you’re referencing. The article in this post seems pretty factual and not inflammatory.
    I don’t think this is an area where it’s OK for the executive branch to be wrong. If there were no serious injuries but people are still being evaluated than that’s what they should say. Dustin pointed out how bad information early on shapes the debate.

    Bottom line is that this administration’s statements are not reliable.

    Time123 (6e0727)

  51. If that’s the best you got, you need to rethink you hatred.

    Others lied about far worse, far more often.

    Patterico, you are getting into LGF territory.

    Darth Chocolate (82840a)

  52. “Bottom line is that this administration’s statements are not reliable.”
    Time123 (6e0727) — 1/17/2020 @ 6:31 am

    As opposed to what administration?

    Munroe (dd6b64)

  53. Time123 (6e0727) — 1/17/2020 @ 6:31 am

    I’m not disagreeing with the premise and I’m not trying to overstate my response. But soccer moms and football dads routinely encourage their kids to risk concussions. Going with the headline ‘11 soldiers being treated for possible concussion’ just doesn’t have the same punch as ‘soldiers … injuries’, or as the article body says traumatic brain injuries, which invokes something more bloody.

    Fighting fire with fire while complaining about people fighting fire with fire. Or some small propaganda to fight some larger propaganda because ends and means.

    My bottom line on this is what’s the desired result? Should this have triggered attacks on the 52? Some other escalation?

    frosty (f27e97)

  54. If that’s the best you got, you need to rethink you hatred.

    Others lied about far worse, far more often.

    Patterico, you are getting into LGF territory.

    Good to know you’re confortable with your government lying to you, as long as other governments have told bigger lies. You’ll make a good sheep. Baa!

    Patterico (115b1f)

  55. @56.

    I get what you’re saying and you have a point that Trumps political opponents give him no credit. This is a common feature of political opponents. 😉

    First, Your question about how this changes the outcome is a debate worth having. It may not have changed the outcome. We don’t know because we didn’t have that debate because the administration didn’t present the facts accurately. The government needs to do that. They didn’t in this case. Maybe we can have that debate now.

    Second, I’m not sure I believe that it was just 12 soldiers and just concussions yet.

    Time123 (6e0727)

  56. Trump said:

    Good morning. I’m pleased to inform you: The American people should be extremely grateful and happy no Americans were harmed in last night’s attack by the Iranian regime. We suffered no casualties, all of our soldiers are safe, and only minimal damage was sustained at our military bases.

    By any stretch of the imagination, that was not correct. Trump, as Commander In Chief, was briefed before he went out and made that statement. Either somebody lied to him, he misunderstood what he was told, or he lied. None of these options encourages me to believe that the the stuff that comes out of Trump’s mouth about Iran will be the truth.

    Appalled (1a17de)

  57. @55 Everyone other one in my adult life.

    Time123 (6e0727)

  58. None of these options encourages me to believe that the the stuff that comes out of Trump’s mouth.

    FIFY

    Time123 (6e0727)

  59. @59

    Trump said:

    Good morning. I’m pleased to inform you: The American people should be extremely grateful and happy no Americans were harmed in last night’s attack by the Iranian regime. We suffered no casualties, all of our soldiers are safe, and only minimal damage was sustained at our military bases.

    By any stretch of the imagination, that was not correct. Trump, as Commander In Chief, was briefed before he went out and made that statement. Either somebody lied to him, he misunderstood what he was told, or he lied. None of these options encourages me to believe that the the stuff that comes out of Trump’s mouth about Iran will be the truth.

    Appalled (1a17de) — 1/17/2020 @ 7:21 am

    Concussion is very serious… but, it’s usually not an obvious injury and the short timeframe when the military was doing damage assessments, I’m not convinced that concussions would be diagnosed quickly enough during that timeframe.

    whembly (fd57f6)

  60. @62 So do the research. How common are they when there’s a nearby explosion? Is it reasonable to suspect that it would have happened? If so should the message have been “No serious injuries but….”

    Time123 (6e0727)

  61. I just read this 11 are NOT being treated for concussions, they under medical surveillance for POSSIBLE Concussions. In today’s military, anyone who experiences POSSIBLE concussion like symptoms after an explosion in their area is put under medical surveillance.

    In WW2 and Korea, men were just expected to “shake it off” and move on. Which resulted in additional shell shock” injuries, but the Army-Marines thought that was balanced off by all the men who stayed with their units and kept on fighting. BTW, in the 60s, 70s, 80s, Football players kept on playing or sat down a while and went back in. Today, they are trying to avoid any possible injury from a concussion.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  62. I’ve suffered two severe concussions in my life, both knocked me completely out for at least a few seconds.

    I am interested as to the severity of these soldiers’ concussions because my doctor told me there was a wide range. He said both of mine were serious. He added that most people who suffered concussions were not aware of it at the time. Even so I felt one of mine was definitely more severe because the after-effects (headaches, inability to focus, trouble with balance) were much worse and lasted over two weeks.

    I had no idea though that I had suffered something that (if inflicted by an enemy in war) would have earned me a Purple Heart.

    harkin (d6cfee)

  63. @63 I would encourage *you* to do the research. I’m looking at this as a practical matter on how likely is it to diagnose concussions and communicate it through the multitude layers of military/governmental apparatus.

    Per WebMD:
    https://mayfieldclinic.com/pe-concussion.htmhttps://mayfieldclinic.com/pe-concussion.htm
    The person may appear fine at first but may show symptoms hours or days later. If untreated, repeated concussions can have severe outcomes.

    So, to me… this is another one of Orange Man Badz Rorschach Test™.

    whembly (fd57f6)

  64. ”Everyone other one in my adult life.”
    Time123 (6e0727) — 1/17/2020 @ 7:21 am

    Is that you, Ben Rhodes?

    Munroe (dd6b64)

  65. Casualties = Killed, wounded, captured. People who suffer minor injuries – and merely put under medical surveillance – are not considered casualties. Further, if you “Freak out” and develop combat fatigue or become require psychiatric care – you are NOT considered a casualty.

    Hundreds of thousands of men were hospitalized in WW2, because they developed malaria, pneumonia, trench foot, or “cracked up”. These were not listed as Casualties in the military’s record book. And you didn’t get a purple heart because you got malaria. These were considered nonbattle injuries.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  66. 57. I think most of the electorate on both sides of the aisle are comfortable being lied to. That’s the whole problem these days; folks yelling the truth are in such a small minority they sound like a lone voice crying out from the wilderness.

    Gryph (08c844)

  67. My understanding is that the strike was with Iranian ballistic missles. The accuracy of these is not pinpoint, so the shock waves indicate close proximity. The US troops were warned and went to blast shelters. Trumps “ALL WELL” pronouncement was premature and reflects a lack of pre-planning on what the strategy would be after an Iranian counter attack. The attack could have killed many US servicemen just as easily. Winging it is not a successful leadership plan.

    dirtyjobsguy (96cdc8)

  68. Everything that comes out of his mouth is sh*t, without the bits of corn. He’s a waste.

    JRH (52aed3)

  69. Good to know you’re comfortable with your government lying to you, as long as other governments have told bigger lies.

    I wouldn’t say I’m comfortable with the idea in general. Assuming for the sake of argument that this is a complete and total lie, that Trump knew people had been injured at the time he made these comments, I’m more comfortable with a lie that de-escalates a conflict where we’ve got alternatives than one that does or that isn’t an obvious wag-the-dog than one that is. For example, I’m more comfortable with “no injuries” than the Gulf of Tonkin incident. Also, more comfortable with “no injuries” than bombing a pharmaceutical factory or the air war in Kosovo.

    From some of the responses here, I’m starting to believe there really might be husbands that will say it isn’t the dress that makes their wife look fat.

    frosty (f27e97)

  70. Gryph (08c844) — 1/17/2020 @ 8:01 am

    Wolf, wolf, more wolves, the dike is leaking, wolves, truth, leaks, flooding, wolves, wolves, truth, the sky is falling, wolves, end of time, wash, rinse, repeat.

    frosty (f27e97)

  71. 73. So you think I’m wrong. I know I’m not. At no time have I said here or elsewhere that I think or thought Donald J. Trump was the singular harbinger of our doom. Quite to the contrary, he’s really no different than any other politician. That cuts to the heart of my concern. Your mockery of me only serves to reinforce my position.

    Gryph (08c844)

  72. 1. Dustin (b8d6d1) — 1/16/2020 @ 7:13 pm

    no, I don’t think brain injuries are minor things.

    They are not immediately detectable.

    But now they know to expect that.

    During the first years of the Iraq war (and through previous U.S. wars) they were ignored or unknown. It was only in the course of troops experiencing many IED explosions, that they became aware of the fact that soldiers could suffer concussions or the equivalent of concussions, from very high intensity explosions that they were being sheltered from. Helmets won’t protect people from this.

    In the recent attack sme soldiers had on;y minutes to take shelter, and they aimed to use shelters built by Saddam Hussein because they were better.

    The number 11 is the number of U.S. soldiers evacuated to Kuwait for either further testing (they were not yet ready to give them purple hearts) or treatment.

    But they bravely signed up to serve, and thye knew deploying to this region would be dangerous. That is terrible but all I’m asking is that our leaders be willing to defend them. Of course, Trump was once asked by his country to fight with them, and he chickened out.

    Sammy Finkelman (2cb3c3)

  73. harkin (d6cfee) — 1/17/2020 @ 7:46 am

    I had no idea though that I had suffered something that (if inflicted by an enemy in war) would have earned me a Purple Heart.

    It probably wouldn’t have before about 2008 or whatever.

    The military is now very sensitive to this subject, including concussions without physical contact with anything besides air, and they examine everyone exposed I think..

    Sammy Finkelman (2cb3c3)

  74. Gryph (08c844) — 1/17/2020 @ 8:33 am

    I’m not attacking you. It sounds like I’m agreeing with you. People tolerate the lies because we can’t discuss the lies without lying. Each side will pick apart and parse every word of the other side then make inferences and implications while complaining about the other side doing the exact same thing.

    frosty (f27e97)

  75. @64

    I just read this 11 are NOT being treated for concussions, they under medical surveillance for POSSIBLE Concussions. In today’s military, anyone who experiences POSSIBLE concussion like symptoms after an explosion in their area is put under medical surveillance.

    rcocean (1a839e) — 1/17/2020 @ 7:45 am

    Do you have citation?

    whembly (fd57f6)

  76. Hundreds of thousands of men were hospitalized in WW2, because they developed malaria, pneumonia, trench foot, or “cracked up”. These were not listed as Casualties in the military’s record book.

    This is incorrect.

    Illness (which includes mental conditions as well as malaria, pneumonia, etc) is included in casualty figures. So are accidents.

    The determinant, in the NATO definition, is that the soldier’s service was lost to his/her unit.

    So indeed, minor injuries that are treated without causing the soldier to be absent from duty are not casualties (although they may be wounds).

    Dave (1bb933)

  77. Mayo Clinic says post concussion symptoms show up between 7-10 days after the event.

    You guys are lawyers, not doctors, but Google can help bridge that gap. :)

    steveg (354706)

  78. They are most likely under treatment/observation for post-concussion syndrome as noted above

    steveg (354706)

  79. The US military will never win another battle much less a war if we evacuate everyone that has been near an explosion.

    How about exposure to dangerous fumes? Explosions generate gases (marginally) worse than old MRE’s

    steveg (354706)

  80. @67 I guess that’s what I deserve when I forget what you are.

    Time123 (cd2ff4)

  81. The date for the defense one article: JANUARY 16, 2020

    According to a fourth senior U.S. defense official, “About a week after the attack some service members were still experiencing some symptoms of concussion.” The official expected more information would be released soon. “We only got wind of this in the last 24 hours.”

    But once you’ve decided everyone in the DoD and the Trump admin lies why believe they only found out in the last 24 hours? Why believe only some? This information was originally sourced from the DoD so why believe any? Maybe this is part of an elaborate ruse to get us focused back on Iran and away from the impeachment.

    frosty (f27e97)

  82. Whembly,

    If we were talking about a minor issue I’d agree with you about a long communication chain and that mistakes happen. But this was and is a pretty big event.

    There’s a long pattern of Trump failing to be factually accurate. This appears to be another data point in the pattern. From what I’ve read it’s very common for soldier who are near an explosion get a concussion. Common enough that it would be reasonable to suspect it here, if they were close enough.

    Where I’m at with it is that we can’t rely on this administrations statements to be correct.

    Time123 (6e0727)

  83. Concussions vary and can be hard to diagnose but even the mildest ones can cause “headache, loss of memory (amnesia) and confusion.” The military has dealt with hundreds of thousands caused by everything from minor accidents to major concussive explosions like this.

    I am certain the military knows to screen for TBIs after explosions. Also, I know from personal experience that just because the person with a concussion thinks they are fine, that doesn’t mean they act/appear fine to others.

    DRJ (15874d)

  84. I suspect that is for minor concussions, steveg, but even so there can be immediate signs like confusion. And an explosion is likely to do more harm. Isn’t that why we see so many TBIs in the military?

    DRJ (15874d)

  85. I read this back and forth about concussions and realize: “Yes, they are hard to detect right away.” But the military is well aware of the problem in 2020, and aware enough to brief the President, as part of getting ready for this statement, that some of the troops may have concussions (traumatic brain injury) as a result of the attack.

    And still, Trump says:

    The American people should be extremely grateful and happy no Americans were harmed in last night’s attack by the Iranian regime. We suffered no casualties.”

    No hedging whatsoever. This is an absolute statement. It’s wrong.

    Either the military failed to properly brief the President about something they knew. Or the President ignored what he was told. (I’d bet on door #2). All in all, it’s just another brick in the wall. So not a big deal, but another in a series of little deals that leave this President with no credibility on this issue.

    Appalled (1a17de)

  86. Further, post concussion syndrome is different than concussion. Post concussion syndrome occurs when the initial concussion symptoms don’t resolve over time. By definition, you can’t diagnose post concussion syndrome until some time has elapsed.

    DRJ (15874d)

  87. 85

    Whembly,

    If we were talking about a minor issue I’d agree with you about a long communication chain and that mistakes happen. But this was and is a pretty big event.

    There’s a long pattern of Trump failing to be factually accurate. This appears to be another data point in the pattern. From what I’ve read it’s very common for soldier who are near an explosion get a concussion. Common enough that it would be reasonable to suspect it here, if they were close enough.

    Where I’m at with it is that we can’t rely on this administrations statements to be correct.

    Time123 (6e0727) — 1/17/2020 @ 9:33 am

    This exercise just seems like the anti-Trumpers are looking for any reason to pound the table that they don’t like this administration. That’s fine as we all have differences in opinion.

    But, over this? I think its far more likely that the folks at the top wasn’t aware of the TBIs at the time and it was most likely only diagnosed far after when Trump made that statement…

    whembly (fd57f6)

  88. No hedging whatsoever. This is an absolute statement. It’s wrong.

    Because what the American people really need in a situation like that is for statements by POTUS to sound like the end of drug commercials on TV. And we’d call that decisive leadership.

    The important thing everyone wanted to hear was whether the US was going to escalate. The average person tuned out everything else.

    frosty (f27e97)

  89. …continuing, I think at worst Trump and/or Top military leadership were too optimistic of the aftermath.

    whembly (fd57f6)

  90. whembly (fd57f6) — 1/17/2020 @ 10:03 am

    The American people should be extremely grateful and happy no Americans were harmed in last night’s attack by the Iranian regime. We suffered no casualties.” – JANUARY 8

    senior U.S. defense official, … “We only got wind of this in the last 24 hours.” – JANUARY 16

    frosty (f27e97)

  91. But, over this? I think its far more likely that the folks at the top wasn’t aware of the TBIs at the time and it was most likely only diagnosed far after when Trump made that statement…

    whembly (fd57f6) — 1/17/2020 @ 10:03 am

    That makes sense only if you assume the military has no experience with concussions or TBIs, including when they might occur and how to screen for them. But the fact is the military — especially our forces in the Middle East — likely have more knowledge and experience with this than anyone in the world.

    DRJ (15874d)

  92. @93

    whembly (fd57f6) — 1/17/2020 @ 10:03 am

    The American people should be extremely grateful and happy no Americans were harmed in last night’s attack by the Iranian regime. We suffered no casualties.” – JANUARY 8

    senior U.S. defense official, … “We only got wind of this in the last 24 hours.” – JANUARY 16

    frosty (f27e97) — 1/17/2020 @ 10:11 am

    Yup.

    But, will it matter?

    whembly (fd57f6)

  93. #94

    But, over this? I think its far more likely that the folks at the top wasn’t aware of the TBIs at the time and it was most likely only diagnosed far after when Trump made that statement…

    whembly (fd57f6) — 1/17/2020 @ 10:03 am

    That makes sense only if you assume the military has no experience with concussions or TBIs, including when they might occur and how to screen for them. But the fact is the military — especially our forces in the Middle East — likely have more knowledge and experience with this than anyone in the world.

    DRJ (15874d) — 1/17/2020 @ 10:19 am

    Then the military assessment folks failed to communicate that to Trump.

    Does that still make Trump a liar?

    whembly (fd57f6)

  94. @NK #2.

    Are you talking about our stable genius president? Maybe, he’s had some CTE in his own personal “vietnam” of the 70’s. Maybe he likes a bit of rough boy play with Roy, or a bit of the autoerotic asphyxiation.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (48e13d)

  95. Then the military assessment folks failed to communicate that to Trump.

    Does that still make Trump a liar?

    It’s just another data point that you can’t rely on what this administrations says. If it’s malice or incompetence i’ll let people decide for themselves. But once again a factual claim turns out to be wrong.

    Time123 (cd2ff4)

  96. Because what the American people really need in a situation like that is for statements by POTUS to sound like the end of drug commercials on TV. And we’d call that decisive leadership.

    The important thing everyone wanted to hear was whether the US was going to escalate. The average person tuned out everything else.

    “There were no serious injuries.”

    Factually correct only 5 words.

    And I’m not even a copy writer.

    If you want to get more accurate

    “No injuries reported.”

    Only 3 words

    Both invite follow up questions bat a press secretary could say “per process we’ll check to people close to the blasts for concussions.” But that’s only another 12 words.

    Time123 (cd2ff4)

  97. No, I was just providing some information about concussion.

    nk (dbc370)

  98. Time123 (cd2ff4) — 1/17/2020 @ 10:37 am

    True, I was exaggerating for effect. But that’s not where the original comment was going.

    No hedging whatsoever

    Appalled is implying that some hedging would’ve been ok but I don’t think so it would be:

    Enjoy the coming redefinition of the word “casualties” (and the word “harmed”)

    We’ve also fisked “serious” and “injuries” and “reported” would be an obvious red flag.

    All of your alternatives would be subject to the same treatment we’re now giving “no injuries”. And this followup wouldn’t have covered it. If we find out tomorrow that some soldiers were injured getting into the bunkers, say a fall and a broken bone or twisted ankle, we’d have needed a more comprehensive “per process” disclaimer.

    frosty (f27e97)

  99. In sum, that Trump is a pathological liar is a given, but this gem isn’t the mole hill for critics to die on. In the hours after the incident, he only reported what the brass hats cross the Potomac initially relayed to him.

    At the Pentagon, ‘all is well,’ all the time– until it isn’t.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  100. Frosty:

    The President could have said nothing about casualties. Instead, he made a special point of something untrue. Which, as Time123 demonstrated, was something he could have avoided doing very easily.

    Appalled (296202)

  101. I stopped trusting this administration when I learned the Acting Director of the FBI lied under oath. Some McCabe guy something or other.

    Munroe (9bf19c)

  102. Trump fans lied

    Itself a lie. But it seems we’ve been through that before. Lies are rather thick here, especially in regard to troops. Some Pelosi humpers here abouts have called our troops sissies for huddling together during a bombardment. Others have written off the very real suicide problem we have with men who have actually seen real combat by lying via statistics. And let’s not forget the RussiaRussiaRussia lie perpetuators, the denegration of minor children, etc. etc. etc. Not to mention the “If I say I can see the lighthouse 100 miles away then that’s the truth, thffft”…But yes, let’s call out those Trump fans for “lying”. Sheesh.

    PTw (894877)

  103. Appalled (296202) — 1/17/2020 @ 12:08 pm

    His red line involved casualties. No reaction to the drone because of no casualties. In theory, Soloman was about casualties.

    But maybe you’re right. I’m skeptical of these suggestions of what he could have done. It sounds just a bit like the man in the van giving away free candy.

    frosty (f27e97)

  104. @frosty No, I think his red line involved (American) deaths. Or close to it.

    Of course, he preferred it if there were no injuries at all.

    Trump was also happy to report no Iraqis were killed either by the missiles launched from Iran, although it took him a few days, or he waited a few days, to say that..

    Sammy Finkelman (2cb3c3)

  105. I sure hope the more honest folks in DC hold this administration accountable for its lies, lies, lies. People who won’t deceive, who are forthright, candid, and stand behind their word. People like Anonymous and that Pierre Delecto guy.

    Munroe (9bf19c)

  106. @107 True and it’s what I should have said. He could have said “no deaths” and gotten the minimum amount of criticism. But nothing and “no injuries” wouldn’t do it.

    frosty (f27e97)

  107. I really don’t get this argument.
    Trump came out the next day and said no casualties… and in this day of concussion protocols maybe that was hasty.
    By past standards not hasty but by today’s maybe hasty.
    Trump now owes 11 Iranians a headache and maybe some measurable temporary hearing loss, but decided to pass. Good call.

    Do people here really hate Trump so much that the day after the attack, no visible damage to personnel, none reported to him, that he gets scourged over this?
    Geez. He had to make a statement the next morning based off the info he had, what was he supposed to do, let the Iranians own the conversation with their lies?
    Concussion symptoms don’t often show up for 7-10 days and Trump did need to make a statement the day after with the Iranians claiming 30 dead, then 80 dead, so he did and technically he was not just wrong in hindsight by the nitpicker…. no he is a liar.

    There are two things at odds here.
    The people who say Trump lies so much that people are numb to it…
    or the people indeed are numb due to the sheer volume of whinging down to the nit.

    This is like grade school in the old days where Billy lies and the Andy whines to the teacher constantly about anything Billy says that is technically incorrect. Billy might have to write “I shall not lie” 10 times on the blackboard followed by “I will tell the truth” 10 times, followed by an ad libbed “Billy is a little pussy” 10 times..
    The teacher begins to find herself loathing Andy along with 3/4 of the class and liking Billy, because well, that little snitch Andy is a sel righteous little pain in the butt.

    The Iranian casualty count was a deliberate lie, but by what standard is Trumps statement a lie at all?
    Oh. The new standard. The standard for people who want to call Trump a liar over post concussion protocol he didn’t even know about on the day he had to make a statement.

    A good example of over reaching like this was the Democrats bringing in Lev Parnas, a guy wearing an ankle monitor, who changes his story by the second.

    Via Fox, Trey Gowdy pointed out that, when asked the same question about Pence, Parnas “gave three different answers to the same question.”

    “His first answer is, ‘I’m absolutely certain Pence knew about.’ And then, about three seconds later, he said, ‘Well, he had to have, right?’ And then, the last answer was: ‘Well, it’s possible,'” he continued.

    Great witness.

    We get it. You hate Trump. Bring meat and bourbon to the BBQ, not expired Tofurkey and Kombucha

    steveg (354706)

  108. ^^I echo steveg here.

    whembly (fd57f6)

  109. “by what standard is Trumps statement a lie at all?”

    By the standard definition of the words “lie” and “truth.”

    “The American people should be extremely grateful and happy no Americans were harmed in last night’s attack by the Iranian regime. ”

    That is at least one lie.

    JRH (52aed3)

  110. Trump could have just come out and said “Damage was minimal and we are assessing.” Period. no need for the lie. Except, of course, for Trump’s need to incessantly lie.

    JRH (52aed3)

  111. 112 “

    by what standard is Trumps statement a lie at all?”

    By the standard definition of the words “lie” and “truth.”

    “The American people should be extremely grateful and happy no Americans were harmed in last night’s attack by the Iranian regime. ”

    That is at least one lie.

    JRH (52aed3) — 1/17/2020 @ 2:18 pm

    After the fact? That’s still lying?

    frosty zero’ed in on the two events:

    whembly (fd57f6) — 1/17/2020 @ 10:03 am

    The American people should be extremely grateful and happy no Americans were harmed in last night’s attack by the Iranian regime. We suffered no casualties.” – JANUARY 8

    senior U.S. defense official, … “We only got wind of this in the last 24 hours.” – JANUARY 16

    frosty (f27e97) — 1/17/2020 @ 10:11 am

    I mean… is that where we’re at? We’re retroactively assigning the “liar” label on things that they did not know at the time?

    whembly (c30c83)

  112. What steveg said.

    PTw (91d450)

  113. Whembly…where we’re at is…Remember the leftist whine after 9/11 that “Bush didn’t keep us safe”? And also the complaint from the right that OBL was in the crosshairs and Clinton (or somebody…I think it was Clinton) let the opportunity pass? Imagine a universe where T didn’t give the OK for this hit and later it comes out that he had the opportunity to take Soliiomieniene at the Baghdad airport and passed on that. The screams of INCOMPETENCE INCOMPETENCE INCOMPETENCE would be deafening. Monday morning quarterbacks are clowns.

    PTw (91d450)

  114. First I will not that Obama is excoriated for lying for saying “”If you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor.” Later that turned out not to be true. Now probably Obama thought what he was saying was true at the time but it turned out he couldn’t deliver. Doesn’t stop people calling him a liar.

    Based on that standard, why shouldn’t I call Trump a liar? but I will concede, he was simply mistaken and I didn’t read carefully. Mea Culpa.

    JRH (52aed3)

  115. whembly (c30c83) — 1/17/2020 @ 2:28 pm

    Yes for each question. Because this issue is just that important. We were lied out of expanding the war in the ME or something.

    frosty (f27e97)

  116. 117… this is a troll right? You don’t understand the SIGNIFICANT differences twixt those two situations?

    PTw (91d450)

  117. OT: apparently Tillerson’s “f***ing moron” statement came after Trump called the Joint Chiefs “dopes and babies,” as they patiently tried to explain some basic realities of international diplomacy and military power, with a lot of graphs and charts in a bid to hold the wandering attention of the Very Stable Genius.

    He also had trouble reading the U.S. Constitution. (“It’s like a foreign language!”)

    But hey, it’s the people who criticize him who are “deranged” with “hate.”

    Radegunda (39c35f)

  118. The iran-contra treason started with bill casey making a deal with the ayatollah

    That’s one spin. Another is that the ayatollah was told that if Reagan took the oath and the hostages were still there, bad things would happen to Iran, and Iran waited until the last minute.

    Kevin M (19357e)

  119. I sure hope the more honest folks in DC hold this administration accountable for its lies, lies, lies. People who won’t deceive, who are forthright, candid, and stand behind their word. People like Anonymous and that Pierre Delecto guy.

    Some people are trying to keep a tally of Trump lies, but it’s a pretty much a full-time job. Here’s a start. Here’s another.

    One trick is figuring out whether Trump knows full well that he’s lying, or just so psychologically impaired that he really can’t distinguish between “true” and “flattering to me.”

    The bigger mystery is why his fans and enablers are so indifferent to his truly extraordinary disregard for facts.

    Radegunda (39c35f)

  120. No, he just quickly ‘changed the channel’– by invading Grenada.

    Yeah, that’s the ticket.

    Kevin M (19357e)

  121. Trump came out the next day and said no casualties… and in this day of concussion protocols maybe that was hasty.

    My problem is that he might have been told this by a sycophantic military. We’ve been down that road before and it didn’t end well. If the military is corrupt (as it was in Vietnam), we are in a world of trouble. If it is, I’m not sure that it’s all Trump’s fault, but he sure didn’t help it any.

    Kevin M (19357e)

  122. “ Now probably Obama thought what he was saying was true at the time but it turned out he couldn’t deliver. Doesn’t stop people calling him a liar.”
    _

    “ “You can’t do it political, you just literally cannot do it. Transparent financing and also transparent spending. I mean, this bill was written in a tortured way to make sure CBO did not score the mandate as taxes. If CBO scored the mandate as taxes the bill dies. Okay? So it’s written to do that…….In terms of risk rated subsidies, if you had a law which said that healthy people are going to pay in, you made explicit healthy people pay in and sick people get money, it would not have passed. Lack of transparency is a huge political advantage. And basically, call it the stupidity of the American voter or whatever, but basically that was really really critical to get for the thing to pass. Look, I wish Mark was right that we could make it all transparent, but I’d rather have this law than not.”

    Jonathon Gruber, architect of Obamacare.
    _

    harkin (d6cfee)

  123. 103. Which, as Time123 demonstrated, was something he could have avoided doing very easily.

    Yes it has been proven that people that never do anything, make fewer mistakes than those that actually get things done.

    So its taken over 100 comments, but yet another phony “orange man bad” delusion gets debunked.

    iowan2 (9c8856)

  124. @126, or he could have done the thing /slightly/ different and not been wrong.
    Bottom line: statements from trump can’t be trusted to be accurate.

    Time123 (d54166)

  125. @124. See #102.

    The rest has been an exercise in wasting electrons.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  126. The President could have said nothing about casualties. Instead, he made a special point of something untrue. Which, as Time123 demonstrated, was something he could have avoided doing very easily.

    But that would not have helped the narrative that the Iranians were so afraid of the Great and Powerful Whizzer that they first gave advance warning and then fired to miss.

    BTW, when Carolin Gallego stepped out with Pierre Delecto, did she wear the blonde wig with the black sequined dress or the black wig with red satin dress?

    nk (dbc370)

  127. illness (which includes mental conditions as well as malaria, pneumonia, etc) is included in casualty figures. So are accidents.

    What? Look up the “casualties” number in a WW2 history book. 9/10 they will show KIA, WIA, Missing/POW. And you didn’t get a purple heart for being ill in WW2. So i don’t what your point is. I know what mine is. Maybe, you’re just quibbling over the word “casualty” if so, I don’t care.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  128. But keep accusing people who expect a president to get important statements right and correct mistakes honestly of being deranged.

    Time123 (d54166)

  129. RC, he made a number of plain statements that don’t require your Clintonesque parsing of words to address.

    Time123 (d54166)

  130. Trump said Kim got to know Melania, which was a total LIE, so there’s a history here. Plus, he said Kavanaugh wasn’t a gang raper.

    Munroe (dd6b64)

  131. Yes it has been proven that people that never do anything, make fewer mistakes than those that actually get things done.

    And THIS. Thank God there are still some people who understand this. Real men DO things. Girly sissies whine to teacher, “ Oooh, look what the boys are doing!” Lord. If there’s one major thing that disgusts me about lawyers, it’s this 20/20 hindsight, no responsibility for consequences, complete lack of appreciation for people who have to make critical, life or death decisions under limited, sometimes millisecond timeframes.

    PTw (91d450)

  132. This last explains a lot of our problems.

    You NEVER have to get a permit to do nothing. So, want to solve a traffic problem, or get more water to the city, or build apartments and bring down rents? Gotta get the approval of a raft of bureaucrats, and like a several courts, before you can do anything. But sit and do nothing — no aggravation at all.

    Kevin M (19357e)

  133. When you have an Article Eleven power, you don’t need a permit.

    nk (dbc370)

  134. Yes it has been proven that people that never do anything, make fewer mistakes than those that actually get things done.

    So its taken over 100 comments, but yet another phony “orange man bad” delusion gets debunked.

    iowan2 (9c8856) — 1/17/2020 @ 3:40 pm

    Um, Trump didn’t… do anything about this. He lied in order to not have to respond.

    The Salami Strike was the kind of thing he conspicuously didn’t do for three years. He was apparently shaken by the impeachment to get more war-fighty, like Clinton.

    Trump’s not a doer. He’s a talker. Know the difference.

    Dustin (b8d6d1)

  135. Trump fans lied

    Itself a lie.
    PTw (894877) — 1/17/2020 @ 12:27 pm

    No, I clearly articulated my basis for believing that the years of dissembling solely to give Trump endless support no matter how stupid is calculated to deceive. I can’t see into your heart to know if you happen to be making the same mistake 500 times or if this pattern of deception turned out to be intentional. But my conclusion is honest.

    Y’all sure seem sensitive about this one. I think we all knew that Iran shooting all those missiles was probably not so safe for our troops, but some of us actually want to do something about Iran, and some of y’all just want to talk tough for a few minutes.

    Dustin (b8d6d1)

  136. Yes it has been proven that people that never do anything, make fewer mistakes than those that actually get things done.

    So its taken over 100 comments, but yet another phony “orange man bad” delusion gets debunked.

    iowan2 (9c8856) — 1/17/2020 @ 3:40 pm

    So with your…squirrel…over there…

    Did Trump lie about US being unharmed? It’s pretty simple.

    Also, please, tell us all about he repealed Obamacare, built the wall, defanged the Iranians and NorKo, pushed the Chinese back from being a currency manipulator. You know, all those accomplishments. Or is his success being slightly better on twitter than your average 13 year old schoolgirl?

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (48e13d)

  137. It appears the rulers in Iran are painting American and Israeli flags on walkways, stairways etc. and encouraging their citizens to walk on them. According to some reports, they are not exactly getting the response they were looking for:

    https://lidblog.com/trump-effect-iran-regime/
    _

    Can’t say this is true or not, don’t wish to be called a lying liar by the sensitives.

    harkin (d6cfee)

  138. Who says Iranians don’t enjoy the same freedom of expression as Americans?

    Will their art exhibition tour take them to the Chicago Art Institute, I wonder?

    nk (dbc370)

  139. Johnson’s Bay of Pigs “exaggeration” was for the purpose of fomenting war. Trump’s Iraq “minimization” was for the purpose of avoiding war.

    David in Cal (f8ea8c)

  140. and proving you’re never more than 6 degrees of separation from

    urbanleftbehind (d66c50)

  141. 141, the reaction to that exhibit was child’s play compared to another SAIC pupil’s foray into local politics.

    urbanleftbehind (d66c50)

  142. It appears the rulers in Iran are painting American and Israeli flags on walkways, stairways etc. and encouraging their citizens to walk on them. According to some reports, they are not exactly getting the response they were looking for:

    https://lidblog.com/trump-effect-iran-regime/
    _

    Can’t say this is true or not, don’t wish to be called a lying liar by the sensitives.

    harkin (d6cfee) — 1/17/2020 @ 7:15 pm

    Well, before determining if you’re lying, I’ll simply ask: what is your honest basis for asserting these flags were painted in the present tense. The implication of your claim is that Iran did that in response to Dear Leader Trump.

    So do you have a basis for this boot licking worshipful claim? Or is this like the many assertions that Iran missed the base (out of deference Trump’s fearsome foreign policy) which was plainly a lie intended to spin Trump’s foreign policy disaster?

    Our soldiers are a lot less safe now that the world knows the president will not defend them. I can definitely appreciate the desire to change the subject to how Iranian protestors are quite brave indeed. But to me that just means Trump, like Obama, is missing a golden opportunity.

    Trump got what he wanted by getting those emails off the front page. You can’t fear your way out of bravery.

    Dustin (b8d6d1)

  143. Interesting footnote: When House Speaker Nancy Pelosi was first called to inform her about the strike on Soleimani they didn’t tell her what the call was about – just that Vice President Mike Pence wanted to speak to her. She was in a meeting and told her people to tell him she would speak to him later.

    (Of course this was anyway after the strike. Lindsey Graham, who was visiting in Mar-a-Lago was told in advance.)

    Sammy Finkelman (2cb3c3)

  144. 118. JRH (52aed3) — 1/17/2020 @ 3:01 pm

    . Now probably Obama thought what he was saying was true at the time

    actually, Obama later said in a press conference in November of some year that he thought it was true for almost all people. I posted the quote here a few times.

    Sammy Finkelman (2cb3c3)

  145. David in Cal (f8ea8c) — 1/17/2020 @ 7:32 pm

    Johnson’s Bay of Pigs “exaggeration” was for the purpose of fomenting war.

    I think you mean the claim of North Vietnamese attack that led to the “Gulf of Tonkin” resolution in 1964. There were several precedents with ships that had led to war starting with the USS Maine in Havana harbor in 1898.

    re: American flags on the floor to be stepped on: The government of Iran has been doing that for a long time. What was notable was this in this case, anti-government demonstrators avoiding stepping on them. News reports conveyed the impression they had been painted recently, and I don’t know if that is in fact the case, but there’s nothing in the reporting to tell you that they were.

    Sammy Finkelman (2cb3c3)

  146. We still don’t have a report on what exactly happened.

    now it seems that Iran is back at it again. It took more full control of the government of Lebanon, and their activity is back in Iraq.

    Killing Soleimani only delayed transmission of orders from Iran about three weeks.

    Sammy Finkelman (083d4c)


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