Patterico's Pontifications

5/18/2019

Media: Trump will/will not require E-Verify (UPDATED)

Filed under: Immigration,Law — DRJ @ 6:42 am



[Headlines from DRJ]

Breitbart: Trump [Immigration] Plan Mandates E-Verify, Protecting U.S. Jobs for Americans

But:

Politico: White House may include mandatory E-Verify in immigration proposal

McClatchy: Trump administration eyes mandatory employment checks for immigration plan

Post & Courier Op-Ed: Trump’s immigration plan has one key fault:

We have generally tried to combat the flow of low-skilled, undocumented immigrants in a manner similar to that which has failed to stem the flow of illegal drugs. We try to prop up weak economies in Central America and South America to hopefully give people less reason to come. We try to stop them at the border so they don’t get here in the first place. And we raid employers and bust them if we find they are employing undocumented immigrants, always hoping the next arrest will be the last one. And, as in the war on drugs, the supply of undocumented immigrants remains.

In both cases, basic economics teaches that as long as the demand for a good is high, people will try to supply it — even as the price rises. Some immigrants might be dissuaded from undertaking the risky journey north as news of greater enforcement trickles back to their homes, but minimum wages in the United States ranging from $7.25 to as much as $15 still lure many who face paltry pay in their own country — or no work at all. Some U.S. employers might be dissuaded from hiring workers who they suspect are not here legally, but the risk of getting caught remains low, and the short-term advantage of having cheap, readily available and compliant workers usually outweighs the risks.

The president needs to recognize this and make controlling the demand for these workers as important as interdicting their supply. As I’ve said before, mandatory use of E-Verify, the government system that checks documents provided by prospective employees that supposedly prove legal status against government records, is an absolute minimum.

Will he or won’t he?

UPDATED 5/20/2019– He won’t:

HILTON: And one thing that people have speculated about was that it might include E-Verify. Is that going to be in the —

TRUMP: So E-Verify is going to be possibly a part of it. The one problem is E-Verify is so tough that in some cases, like farmers, they’re not – they’re not equipped for E-Verify. I mean I’d say that’s against Republicans. A lot of the Republicans say you go through an E-Verify. I used it when I built the hotel down the road on Pennsylvania Avenue. I use a very strong E-Verify system. And we would go through 28 people – 29, 30 people before we found one that qualified. 

HILTON: Right. 

TRUMP: So it’s a very tough thing to ask a farmer to go through that. So in a certain way, I speak against myself, but you also have to have a world of some practicality. 

HILTON: So when people hear that, some of the people – if you like, your most (ph) – they’re described as – they’re restrictions, the people who really want to kind of cut immigration to practically nothing. They hear that and they say, “Well, this plan was written by Jared Kushner, and he’s a globalist, and it’s all letting people in.” What do you say to those? Many of them will be your supporters —

TRUMP: This is not a – yes, see, this is not a globalist plan. I wanted this to be very, very strong. You know, we did judicial reform. You saw what we did there, and a lot of people liked it, both conservative and liberal. That was probably the closest you could say to bipartisan and – because a lot of it was unfair. And by the way, it’s very tough. We have Chuck Grassley in support of it. Mike Lee is in support of it. You know, some of the strongest conservatives. 

— DRJ

44 Responses to “Media: Trump will/will not require E-Verify (UPDATED)”

  1. Will he or won’t he?

    Yes. Or no.

    If he does, liberals heads will explode while his supporters sing his praises.
    If he doesn’t, liberals heads will explode while his supporters sing his praises.

    Glenn (37a55d)

  2. In its present form, E-Verify does not prevent one single illegal from being hired by an employer who wants to hire him. It only provides legal cover to the employer who went through the meaningless motions.

    nk (dbc370)

  3. E-Verify is not foolproof, nk. The employer has to actually use it and the workers must have legitimate documents, not stolen or fraudulent documents: :

    A USCIS representative told the Washington Examiner that being a registrant does not necessarily mean a company used the system before hiring employees.

    “The search tool only includes employers who are registered to use E-Verify, so all employers listed in the search tool are registered users of the service,” the official wrote in an email.

    The DHS official said the two siblings may have used stolen documents, fake documents, or not actually been cleared through E-Verify — similar to what happened in the hiring of an unauthorized Mexican immigrant who is on trial in Iowa for the murder of a college student that also took place last summer.

    On the other hand fraud and mismanagement happen in business and government, but we don’t let that stop us from trying to fix things.

    DRJ (15874d)

  4. No argument from me, DRJ. I’m not entirely sure I’d want something like: “Thank you for applying. We’ll call you when when E-Verify confirms the SSN and other identification you have submitted. Under the law, we cannot hire you before that.” That’s giving the government too much power, not to mention too much faith that they’ll do it right, over people’s jobs.

    nk (dbc370)

  5. We can leave it voluntary like verifying SSNs but, whether mandatory or voluntary, discrepancies will eventually be uncovered. Not wanting government involved in our workforce is a ship that sailed when payroll withholding/reporting started.

    DRJ (15874d)

  6. Up the fine to employers for employing illegals immigrants.
    Enforce it vigorously.

    Time123 (d54166)

  7. nk, that ship sailed in the New Deal.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  8. I agree with you, for what it’s worth, and so did my grandfather during the New Deal.)

    Beldar (fa637a)

  9. Trump’s past indifference toward e-Verify has been the most obvious tip-off that he neither knows nor cares at all about immigration economics or policy — but only about the political gains he could wrack up from exploiting people’s fears.

    Insisting on including e-Verify as part of the very next legislation that deals with immigration, whatever else it says, would require a little bit of backbone to accompany an understanding of economics and policy.

    So: No, Trump will not require e-Verify. He’ll continue to pander and engage in symbolism and division, and the problems will go unaddressed while we continue to hurl rhetorical brickbats and photos of children in cages at each other.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  10. So: No, Trump will not require e-Verify. He’ll continue to pander and engage in symbolism and division, and the problems will go unaddressed while we continue to hurl rhetorical brickbats and photos of children in cages at each other.

    And his hotels and golf courses will remain well-staffed with maids and bus-boys.

    What’s good for Trump is good for America…

    Dave (1bb933)

  11. “What’s good for Trump is good for America…”
    Dave (1bb933) — 5/18/2019 @ 9:32 am

    Why should academia get all the special carve outs?

    Munroe (fc8772)

  12. Why should academia get all the special carve outs?

    LOL!

    The best “Whatabouts” are the ones that make no sense at all…

    Dave (1bb933)

  13. People who know know what Munroe is talking about. A large portion of B-1 Temporary Business visas are to visiting academic lecturers. Try doing that with a visiting cleaning lady.

    nk (dbc370)

  14. E-verify would be highly effective. That’s why it won’t be used. :(

    David in Cal (0d5a1d)

  15. A large portion of B-1 Temporary Business visas are to visiting academic lecturers. Try doing that with a visiting cleaning lady.

    B-1 visas are granted for the purpose of attending conferences and business meetings. They do not grant any right to work for pay or attend school.

    And how does the use of the lawful process for people to temporarily visit the United States justify unlawfully hiring illegal immigrants to work here?

    Dave (1bb933)

  16. Fox Business reported in January that the Trump Organization would use E-Verify.

    DRJ (15874d)

  17. Fox Business reported in January that the Trump Organization would use E-Verify.

    I hear Trump will release his income tax returns, too.

    :)

    Dave (1bb933)

  18. If they do finally start complying with the immigration laws, that would be a wonderful thing.

    Dave (1bb933)

  19. B-1 visas are granted for the purpose of attending conferences and business meetings. They do not grant any right to work for pay or attend school.

    I did say “people who know”. Lecturers can receive an honorarium (scroll down). They’re issued a temporary tax identification number so the government can get its cut. It’s a special carve out for academia.

    nk (dbc370)

  20. And his hotels and golf courses will remain well-staffed with maids and bus-boys.

    What’s good for Trump is good for America

    Dave, that line screams out for an obligatory Los Tigres Del Norte guitar and accordion riff -if only this were the 1990s and it was Mexican pickup truck sticker states and not the northern triangle nations …

    urbanleftbehind (743b03)

  21. Food for thought regarding next year’s election……

    #ThePersistence
    @ScottPresler
    I HAVE GREAT NEWS:

    In a stunning upset election, Prime Minister Scott Morrison has declared victory!

    Australia swung to the center-right Liberal National coalition government.

    This is an upset victory, just like Brexit or
    @realDonaldTrump
    winning.
    __ _

    Chris Stigall
    @ChrisStigall
    Anyone noticing a pattern yet? Election after election, all over the world – pollsters continue to be “shocked” as ruling class institutions continue to be shunned by the citizenry.
    __ _

    Ron Nehring
    @RonNehring
    Remember election night 2016 when all the commentators were in disbelief when Hillary lost the unlosable election?

    That’s what’s happening tonight in Australia as center right
    @LiberalAus
    appears on track to win incredible upset. #auspoI #australiavotes
    __ _

    David Burge
    @iowahawkblog
    Australia has compulsory voting, complete with stiff fines, and 90%+ turnout. If there is any election system where polls should be authoritative, it’s AUS. And the polls were STILL garbage.
    __ _

    Esoteric Jeff
    @EsotericCD
    “But we ran our campaign primarily on climate change legislation and wealth redistribution, how did we lose?” Australia’s Labor Party mused to themselves, befuddled at the surprise outcome of the election.

    __ _

    Joe
    @Wehback
    Russian hackers obviously

    __

    harkin (1aa46f)

  22. To be fair, the Australia national election would be akin to an idealized Dem primary here. And it looks like the public awareness campaign regarding an unfortunate drunken incident at a McDonalds by the incumbent backfired.

    http://gizmodo.com/why-australians-are-tweeting-about-the-prime-minister-s-1834836189?utm_medium=sharefromsite&utm_source=gizmodo_copy&utm_campaign=top

    urbanleftbehind (743b03)

  23. Trump’s plan is terrible. Instead of relieving the pressure from Mexico and central America by increasing quotas for economic immigrants, it narrows immigration, disallowing both economic immigrants AND family members.

    The result will be more, not less illegal immigration and further degrade the immigration service’s ability to process immigrants in a orderly manner.

    Further, importing technical people with lower economic demands and accumulated costs, it will cause American students to turn away from STEM careers due to lower wages to defray high college costs. H-1B on steroids.

    Luckily law is still immune to immigrant competition, due to its Guild structure. Law schools should benefit.

    Kevin M (21ca15)

  24. I expect they will make E-Verify a safe harbor process, where employers who use it are immune from charges relating to illegal immigrants working for them, while stepping up the (generally unused) penalties for hiring the undocumented.

    This will be called “requiring E-Verify”, but it will be a lie.

    Kevin M (21ca15)

  25. What we will get from Trump’s plan is a flood of STEM workers from China, who will spread through our high-tech world and report back to their handlers from time to time.

    Kevin M (21ca15)

  26. Regarding Australia…that’s the country with an almost complete ban on guns…

    Kishnevi (9bda4f)

  27. Why would Trump insist on e-verify? If he did, it would only affect a small number of staff at his hotels and golf courses, at which management is handing out fake documents to. He’s applying for an increase in H-2B visas for foreign workers, mostly from northern Europe, to replace the illegal immigrants from Central and South America he’s hiring now. He does that not just to avoid prosecution. He does that because American workers demand higher wages and benefits. Illegal immigrants and foreign workers on visas do not. They will accept lower wages without benefits, because they don’t have a choice. Plus, they are more susceptible to intimidation, because they have the threat of deportation hanging over their heads.

    Gawain's Ghost (b25cd1)

  28. Further, importing technical people with lower economic demands and accumulated costs, it will cause American students to turn away from STEM careers due to lower wages to defray high college costs. H-1B on steroids.
    […]
    What we will get from Trump’s plan is a flood of STEM workers from China, who will spread through our high-tech world and report back to their handlers from time to time.

    Wait, a few posts ago, academia was supposedly getting carve-outs and favored treatment…now we’re being wiped out by market forces and the Yellow Peril like six-pack swilling peasants.

    This is all so confusing.

    Dave (1bb933)

  29. Conflating my opinions with other peoples’ is somewhat unfair.

    Kevin M (21ca15)

  30. Gawain,

    The reason that H1-B or H-2B workers can accept lower wages is that they don’t have to sustain a presence here, nor support a family here. So they can rough it in a worker hostel for a couple of years, then go home with savings.

    But the Americans they are competing with don’t have the same ability, and often have other costs like college loans in the case of H-1B. And when the foreign workers go home, they are replaced by fresh ones.

    It’s not competing with a foreigner, it’s competing with a tag-team of foreigners.

    Kevin M (21ca15)

  31. The shift to skills could also induce more from India, which could also be considered another manifestation of this administration’s dogged pursuit of non-Muslim Indians as a voting bloc, cabinet and executive branch posts and judicial appointments being the other. But I wonder if it is as “successful” in terms of votes bank as those I’ll dated reachouts to Hispanics?

    urbanleftbehind (743b03)

  32. …Ill-fated reachouts to…

    urbanleftbehind (743b03)

  33. And don’t forget, a plucky H1-B can “mack” his way into an anchor baby situation, albeit one that outscored you at the front of class rather than stabs you under the bleachers. Bobby Jindal, viewed as presidential timber before he went full NT, he was vulnerable to being viewed as a college town anchor baby (Geaux Tigers as it were).

    urbanleftbehind (743b03)

  34. I agree that American workers are at a disadvantage, because they require higher wages and benefits. That is why employers, like Trump, preferentially hire illegal immigrants and/or foreigners with work visas. They will accept lower wages without benefits. But that is not why employers, like Trump, preferentially hire them over American workers. They are sought after because they are more easily susceptible to intimidation, with the threat of arrest and deportation, whereas Americans are not. It is not so much a question of wages and benefits as it is a matter of intimidation and control.

    Gawain's Ghost (b25cd1)

  35. Conflating my opinions with other peoples’ is somewhat unfair.

    Contrasting, not conflating.

    Nevertheless, your dire predictions seem overwrought to me.

    The number of three-year H1B visas granted to businesses are capped annually, and together the H2B’s comprise less than 200K/year. So there are around half a million in the country at any given time. That is roughly one year’s output of STEM graduates from the higher education system.

    In academia, people’s base salary is pretty rigidly determined by their degree and the number of years of work experience after receiving it. The top candidates might be offered *more* than the “standard” salary, especially if they have multiple competing offers, but there is no “discount” salary scale for foreign people (and they generally bring their families with them). In 20 years, I’ve never once heard someone talk about hiring the second or third best candidate to save money (and since the candidates for a given position generally have the same degree and amount of experience, their base salaries would never be significantly different anyway).

    The fact that we can attract half a million of the brightest people in the world (OK, there are a few Melania’s, but not many) to come work here seems entirely to our advantage. As always, it is foolish to think of the number of jobs available as being a fixed quantity.

    Dave (1bb933)

  36. Dave, nearly all H-1B’s I’ve come across work for Asian-owned manpower firms, and as such neatly evade all the salary level rules. They come in as contract employees when they replace higher-paid salaried employees, and since they are paid by an external firm, no H-11B rules apply.

    Kevin M (21ca15)

  37. They come in as contract employees when they replace higher-paid salaried employees, and since they are paid by an external firm, no H-11B rules apply.

    What you describe appears to be specifically forbidden by a rule created by the Obama administration in 2010 (see “Third Party Placement/Job Shop” starting on Page 6).

    Also, do you have any evidence that

    importing technical people with lower economic demands and accumulated costs, it will cause American students to turn away from STEM careers due to lower wages

    The number of STEM degrees awarded to US citizens grew from 420K in 2008-09 to 563K in 2015-16. That’s a growth rate of almost 5% per year.

    And that’s because STEM grads, by far, have the highest wages. What are these American students turned away from STEM careers by lower wages going to take up instead? LitCrit? Gender Studies? Art History?

    This 2017 report by the Bureau of Labor Statistics seems to show page after page of graphic evidence that the opposite of what you predict is happening.

    Dave (1bb933)

  38. What you describe appears to be specifically forbidden by a rule created by the Obama administration in 2010 (see “Third Party Placement/Job Shop” starting on Page 6).

    And yet we continued to see reports of entire IT departments outsourced to H1-B based firms.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/12/fixing-h-1b-visa-loophole/509639/

    Dec 6, 2016

    Last year, Walt Disney World caused a scandal when it let go of more than 200 IT workers and hired an outsourcing firm to replace them with foreign workers on H-1B visas—a program that helps American employers hire foreign workers with specialized skills that they claim they can’t find in the United States (a claim that makes little sense when laying off people already doing those jobs). Southern California Edison, a utility company based in the Los Angeles area, made a similar move a month later, firing more than 400 IT workers. And this summer, the University of California, San Francisco, laid off 80 tech employees after signing a contract with the same outsourcing firm that Disney hired. This is not how the H-1B program was intended to be used.

    The idea behind the visa program was to allow American companies to quickly hire foreign workers with needed skills, which would in turn boost the U.S. economy. And at the outset of the program, laws were put in place specifically to protect American workers from being replaced by companies that might try to hire H-1B visa workers, and pay them less.

    In the wake of the firings at Disney and Southern California Edison, there was outrage. A handful of Democratic and Republican Senators urged the Department of Labor to investigate potential visa abuse. Employees filed lawsuits and complaints. Ultimately, nothing happened with these investigations because replacing American workers with H-1B workers is perfectly legal in many cases. That’s due to a loophole in the law that exempts certain companies from complying with the requirement not to displace an American worker when they petition for one of the 85,000 H-1B visas available each year.

    Kevin M (21ca15)

  39. These H1-B employing firms also should be required to show that they were not preferring younger H1-B workers over older American workers. Without H1-B, you would not have the current situation where few tech companies employ people over 50.

    Kevin M (21ca15)

  40. Without H1-B, you would not have the current situation where few tech companies employ people over 50.

    I think you’re over-extrapolating again here.

    It has always been the case that older, more experienced workers, whose salaries have ratcheted upward over their careers, are vulnerable to replacement by younger, cheaper workers. And there is no reason foreign workers on an H1B visa are necessary to do it.

    Unless the older worker’s decades of experience are essential to their job function, you can just as well hire a wet-behind-the-ears computer science major at an entry level salary to do their job, and you won’t have to train a replacement for them in three years, like you would for an H1B.

    Dave (1bb933)

  41. UPDATED: No E-Verify because farmers.

    DRJ (15874d)

  42. And, in am amazing coincidence, Chuck Grassley supports Trump’s immigration plan that does not include E-Verify. Because farmers.

    DRJ (15874d)

  43. Shorter Trump: “These are my principles. If you don’t like them I have others.”

    Dave (1bb933)

  44. e-Verify is a simple, web-based system.

    In what sense are farmers “not equipped” for it?

    Dave (1bb933)


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