President Trump: This Will Be An Election Of The Caravan (UPDATE ADDED)
[guest post by Dana]
As the caravan of undocumented immigrants from Guatamala, Honduras and El Salvador makes its way through Mexico to the U.S. border, the numbers have reportedly increased to a staggering 5,000 individuals. President Trump responded to the northward migration with a series of tweets this morning:
President Trump vowed Monday to cut off or “substantially” reduce aid to three Latin American nations, voicing fresh frustration as a growing caravan of migrants that originated in Honduras continued to make its way toward the U.S.-Mexico border.
“Guatemala, Honduras and El Salvador were not able to do the job of stopping people from leaving their country and coming illegally to the U.S.,” Trump said in one of a string of morning tweets on the subject. “We will now begin cutting off, or substantially reducing, the massive foreign aid routinely given to them.”
It was not immediately clear what payments Trump was alluding to or the extent to which he could act without congressional approval.
Trump also expressed frustration with Mexico’s military and police, saying they appear “unable to stop the Caravan” and that he has alerted the U.S. Border Patrol and military to what he termed a national emergency.
Ahead of the Nov. 6 midterms, Trump has sought to turn the caravan into a symbol of the larger issue of immigration, which the White House believes can be used to drive up turnout among the Republican base.
I was unable to find any support for President Trump’s claims that “Middle Easterners” were a part of the caravan. Instead, I found this caution about assuming any such thing:
You’re going to be hearing a lot about Guatemala catching 100 ISIS members. @JudicialWatch and its dupes and cronies are spinning this as if they’re being arrested out of the ranks of the “caravan,” in support of Trump’s “Middle Easterner emergy” meme.
But, as others have pointed out, Judicial Watch appears to be using an unsourced boast from Guatemalan President Jimmy Morales and >associating it with the caravan.
On October 11, Prensa Libre reported that Morales claimed his admin deported “close to” 100 ISIS members. Morales assumed office in 2016.
Judicial Watch misleadingly reported this as “ISIS Terrorists Caught in Guatemala as Central American Caravan Heads to U.S.”
But even Morales didn’t connect it to the caravan. Morales made the boast at a conference back on October 11th and 12th. The only specific incident his administration cited was an arrest of some Syrians with fake documents in 2016.
Guatemalan President Jimmy Moraless shared the news on Thursday as 4,000 migrants were making their way to the Guatemala and Mexican border in an effort to cross over.
Yet, under the dishonest urging of @JudicialWatch, this is being spun as “Guatemala catches 100 ISIS members in caravan heading for U.S.” Just look.
As far as there being criminals in the caravan, there is confirmation that previously deported individuals are indeed a part of the caravan. While there are not specific numbers available, some were willing to go on record:
And then there were the deportees. Many of the migrants here had previously lived in the United States, for years or even decades, joining the caravan to reunite with their children, or to resume old jobs. They were undeterred by the American authorities who had apprehended them or the U.S. president who promised to keep them out again.
Some of them had returned voluntarily to their home countries long ago, but eventually determined that there was nothing there for them. Now, they were traversing Mexico while President Trump tweeted about their journey[.]
“It’s time for me to go back to the United States. It’s a country where I can live my life, unlike Guatemala,” said Job Reyes, 36, who had spent most of his childhood and teenage years in Los Angeles, attending kindergarten through high school there.
He said he had returned to Guatemala when his visa expired 14 years ago…“When I heard about the caravan, I knew it was my chance,” he said.
…
Imner Anthony Fuentes, 29, had the same reaction. He had been deported five months ago from Birmingham, Ala. His son was still living there, with his U.S. citizen girlfriend, not far from the framing store where Fuentes had worked for six years. He was used to the back-and-forth: He said he had been deported six times.
“That’s just how it is,” Fuentes said. “They catch you, and you try to get back.”
According to reports, between the three countries, the U.S. is projected to provide a total of $260 million in aid for the 2019 fiscal year.
And as far as this becoming a rallying cry for the GOP before the midterms, when one remembers that taking on illegal immigration and building a wall at the southern border was one of the main planks of his campaign, it makes sense that Trump would use the crisis to rev up his base before an election. This from a rally in Mesa, AZ:
Under two enormous banners—PROMISES MADE and PROMISES KEPT—Trump told an audience of roughly 4,000 people that a Honduran migrant caravan, also roughly 4,000 people, would “break our laws, violate our borders, and overwhelm our nation” if it were to enter the United States.
“They’re fighting some bad people in that group,” Trump said, of the Mexican military. “You see the people come up and you listen to the fake news back there, and you’d think they’re all wonderful people! You got some bad people in those groups, you got some tough people in those group, and I’ll tell you what: This country does not want them.”
And at a campaign stop in Montana, he told an enthusiastic crowd of supporters:
“This will be an election of Kavanaugh, the caravan, law and order and common sense. … Remember it’s gonna be an election of the caravan.”
It’s not clear what any sort of military intervention at the U.S. border would look like, nor whether the President plans to go through Congress.
And worth a mention, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo said yestserday:
“We also are deeply concerned by the violence provoked by some members of the group, as well as the apparent political motivation of some organizers of the caravan,” Pompeo said.
“As President Trump has stated, consistent with U.S. law, the United States will not allow illegal immigrants to enter or remain in the United States,” said Pompeo.
Yet he provided no examples of the migrants inciting violence, nor could I find any when doing a search.
UPDATE: There is a report this afternoon that Bangladeshis are part of the carvavan. The Daily Caller has the story:
Univision correspondent Francisco Santa Anna reported from the bridge separating Guatemala and Mexico. The bridge has been packed with thousands of migrants demanding access to Mexico, with the ultimate goal of crossing the border of the United States illegally. The caravan has now swelled to many thousands.
The Bangladeshis, he said, were detained in an immigration facility, though it’s not clear what happened to them after their detention.
“The borders in Central American are not as strong as the U.S., which makes it possible for people from Panama and Ecuador to cross easily,” Santa Anna said on Univision. “They cross from Costa Rica, then later go through Guatemala and eventually make it into our country.”
“Yesterday when we were traveling through Guatemala, we noticed people from El Salvador and even people from Bangladesh,” he continued. “Can you imagine what they had to do to get here? They infiltrated themselves in this caravan and tried to cross with the crowd. That would have benefited them greatly.”
(h/t commenter xmas.)
UPDATE x2: Perhaps this is what Secretary of State Mike Pompeo was referring to, which happened during the crossing into Mexico:
The men and the women of the caravan turned violent and began to riot upon being denied passage into Mexico. The migrants, most of whom began their journey last week in Honduras, had traveled hundreds of miles on foot or by bus and were unwilling to take no for an answer. They quickly moved to overwhelm the law enforcement and military officers on both sides of the border by hurling rocks and other readily available objects.
One of the migrants, a Honduran man who was first to overcome the police barriers and cross into Mexico, was heard shouting euphorically that no one could stop the caravan’s momentum.
(Cross-posted at The Jury Talks Back.)
–Dana
What a quagmire of human suffering, desperation, illegal entry and flouncing of the law.
Dana (023079) — 10/22/2018 @ 1:19 pmon other conservative blogs they are talking about napalming the caravan so the women and children will be to badly burned to clean out our port a pottys to feed their children. do you agree here?
lany (405f17) — 10/22/2018 @ 1:21 pm2. Just stop them. Keep them from coming across our border. Ideally we shouldn’t need to fire a single shot, let alone do something silly like throwing napalm. Stop them with all due force. It’s not rocket science.
Gryph (08c844) — 10/22/2018 @ 1:28 pmEvery day is a fresh slate for him; wait and see what he chalks up as ‘the election of…’ tomorrow.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 10/22/2018 @ 1:33 pmUnivision reported that there were people from Bangladesh in the caravan.
Xmas (e63a38) — 10/22/2018 @ 1:46 pm5000 people, including children, constitutes a national emergency?
There will be high school football games this weekend with more than 5000 people in attendence.
John B Boddie (ebf63f) — 10/22/2018 @ 1:50 pmUPDATE: There is a report that Bangladeshis are part of the carvavan. The Daily Caller has the story:
(h/t commenter xmas.)
Dana (023079) — 10/22/2018 @ 1:57 pm“Today, violent tides are trying to enter Mexico and they have hurt Mexican police. We did not use armed forces because we offered the obligation to help, “ Mexican Interior Secretary, Alfonso Navarrete Prida told Mexican Milenio television.
happyfeet (28a91b) — 10/22/2018 @ 2:05 pmI’ve been to Bangladesh a couple of times, plus Central and South America quite a lot, and it is definitely a place where you’d absolutely trade it for Guatemala, definitely for Panama, and a million times for the US, detention in Mexico is better.
Are these the evil brown Muslims that Trump was referring? I mean, religion and race are completely unconnected, nationality too for that matter, and are people reporting their religion?
I’m of the mind that it’s a typical Trump lazy lie, there isn’t even enough thought going into it to call it unscrupulous. Kind of like his new middle-class tax cut that will be passing before the election…in two weeks…when Congress is not in session.
These are the lies that I hate the most, not shading complex reality, but just making stuff up out of whole cloth, he’s got all of the worst traits of a 9-year-old, without the cute naivete, he’s a baby man with only the worst aspects of both.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (f3b531) — 10/22/2018 @ 2:10 pmDunno about these particular caravans, but there have been terror plots in the past hatched from south of the border.
Gryph (08c844) — 10/22/2018 @ 2:26 pmthey should call them terrorvans
happyfeet (28a91b) — 10/22/2018 @ 2:28 pmUPDATE x2: Perhaps this is what Secretary of State Mike Pompeo was referring to, which happened during the crossing into Mexico:
Dana (023079) — 10/22/2018 @ 2:41 pmThe blame laid on Judicial Watch doesn’t seem to match their reporting. I assume that is why none of the links go directly to the article.
https://www.judicialwatch.org/press-room/weekly-updates/weekly-update-isis-in-central-america/#anc1
Or is there some other JW quote that I didn’t see?
BuDuh (3ef883) — 10/22/2018 @ 2:42 pmIndeed.
Trump’s failure to obtain full funding from Mexico for the wall, as he promised hundreds of times during the last election campaign, appears destined to destroy our country.
Dave (9664fc) — 10/22/2018 @ 2:50 pmhow will the gorgeous and beautiful Ted Cruz juggle the demands of his reelection campaign with the very real and growing soccer ball/teddy bear needs of our terrorvan friends?
fabulously.
happyfeet (28a91b) — 10/22/2018 @ 2:52 pmI would like to know how many of the returning deportees committed violent acts here in the States and were deported because of that.
Dana (023079) — 10/22/2018 @ 2:52 pmIf the “refugees” are armed, they’re an invading force that should be stopped in its tracks and sent back where it come from–with reinforcements from the armed forces as necessary. If they aren’t, the Mexican government needs to be punished for its cowardly behavior in failing to resist an unarmed group of civilians, and the mob needs to be turned around and sent back where it came from. Enough is enough.
M Scott Eiland (b16b32) — 10/22/2018 @ 2:57 pmContinuing from the last thead in which I have been attacked and maligned, I’m not comfortable calling these caravaners “criminals.” And the reason why I’m not comfortable with that is we prosecuted terror in the courtroom from 1993–2001. I’ve got 3000 dead Americans and two missing skyscrapers that say it didn’t work.
Gryph (08c844) — 10/22/2018 @ 2:59 pm17. What degree of force are you comfortable in using to turn them around and send them back? I say by any and all means necessary, but that’s not an opinion that all of my fellow Americans (and commenters on this blog) share.
Gryph (08c844) — 10/22/2018 @ 3:00 pmHey happyfeet, what you gonna do when this happens?!
If that is my Showtime at the Apollo-style involuntary exit, I accept my fate.
urbanleftbehind (eed4d5) — 10/22/2018 @ 3:07 pm5000 people, including children, constitutes a national emergency?
There will be high school football games this weekend with more than 5000 people in attendence.
John B Boddie (ebf63f) — 10/22/2018 @ 1:50 pm
In and of itself? No. If, however, a substantial portion of the caravan successfully enters the U.S., there will be more of the same, and that is a problem.
norcal (825bb2) — 10/22/2018 @ 3:09 pmYou have 3000 dead Americans? You didn’t even know how 9/11 happened as you said it was committed by SIX MEN.
So you don’t want to call them criminals, you sort of infer that we should categorize them with the Saudi’s that attacked us on 9/11. Why, how, what are you even talking about?
State a cogent reason why these people are terrorists, not just some sort of mealy-mouthed version of blood and soil. If they’re terrorists, why aren’t you calling for drone strikes now, why aren’t you calling for an MEU to be activated to stop them before they get to the border. Either own it, or don’t.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (744849) — 10/22/2018 @ 3:14 pmThey must be stopped. The US cannot absorb all the people who want to come here.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 10/22/2018 @ 3:15 pm14… 24x7x365 totes rent free
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 10/22/2018 @ 3:17 pmlove that movie
did i tell you i finally got to Calumet Fisheries
what stood out was the smoked shrimp and this lovely garlic and pepper smoked trout
i mention the trout cause it was so lovely and such a good value – i think it was less than 10 a pound
and it’s ready to go for pasta or pizza or whatever you wanna do with it
i ate mine cold with a fork
on the other end of the menu they had smoked sablefish, which will make you cry
i had all sorts of ideas what i’d do with the pound i brought home but
i ate mine cold with a fork
there’s a reason they call it butterfish
the fried shrimp was a big hit with the others (i grew up on the gulf and felt like i didn’t need to go off-diet to try)
so happy i know where it is now (indiana, basically) and it’s really not as hard to get to as you’d imagine, especially if you choose a smart time to head over there
happyfeet (28a91b) — 10/22/2018 @ 3:18 pmWe would need Mexico’s permission to attack them with drones and people misunderstand what drone strikes are anyway. They’re the aerial version of Son of Sam. They prowl for hours looking for a target of opportunity and then let loose a Hellfire missile. With these people, we know where they are. What we would send in would be a couple of squadrons of helicopter gunships. But we would need Mexico’s permission. And no napalm — its only lawful use is as a defoliant in jungle warfare (wink).
nk (dbc370) — 10/22/2018 @ 3:26 pmthis was a great time of year to go by the way
we got there just as the light died and it was wonderfully spooky and the bridges and woods were dark and foreboding in just the right way
didn’t get a good sense of the neighborhood really – will go back late afternoon someday, but i’ll drive around on streetview later this week to see
happyfeet (28a91b) — 10/22/2018 @ 3:27 pmOnce again, Trump’s claims are easily fact-checked.
Paul Montagu (3417e9) — 10/22/2018 @ 3:27 pmNYT? politifact or thnopesth weren’t available?
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 10/22/2018 @ 3:34 pm22. I stand by my assertion that 9/11 happened precisely because we prosecuted terror in court rooms. 19 men is still just a shade fewer than the caravan of flag-bearing foreign invaders on their way here to do…what, exactly? If it’s not an invasion force, then maybe you can enlighten me as to just what their purpose is for being here.
All I have said is that we should use all necessary force to keep them out of our country. In return for that rather bland assertion, I have been asked if I wished to nuke Tegucigalpa, if I approved of napalming Mexico, and I have been accused of cruelty to children. All gross mischaracterizations of my position by folks who claim the mantle of “conservative.”
Gryph (08c844) — 10/22/2018 @ 3:37 pmI’ll suspend beef with hf and merely say welcome to my old hood, more or less. What “woods” unless you took the extension of South Lakeshore Dr where it looks a lot like the freeway connecting Tampa with Clearwater (SR60?), the one with rentable picnic shelters.
urbanleftbehind (eed4d5) — 10/22/2018 @ 3:39 pmpush em back push em back waaaaaaay back
ready?
O!
K!
don’t mess, don’t mess!
don’t mess with the best cause the rest don’t rest!
you ugly
you you you UGLY
happyfeet (28a91b) — 10/22/2018 @ 3:41 pmWell, if if BAMN is called for, would you entrust a Cartel or their closely held representation in the Mexican militaryto take care of it? For me I’d prefer a vigilante group from a rancho. The Khasoggi episode sort of illustrates the necessitate of such measures.
urbanleftbehind (eed4d5) — 10/22/2018 @ 3:42 pmugh i screwed up my terrorvan cheer
it’s supposed to be *don’t mess with the best cause the best don’t rest!*
that’s ok everybody gets one do-over
happyfeet (28a91b) — 10/22/2018 @ 3:42 pmyes yes the woods are basically just “the trees that line the spooky dark parking lot where the employees park”
there weren’t any customers showing us how to park on the street when we got there so that’s where we parked
happyfeet (28a91b) — 10/22/2018 @ 3:44 pmWell, you said that we should order the military to shoot them if they attempt to enter. You are equating them to the Saudi’s that attacked us on 9/11, terrorists, and you get confused about why someone would question the view that the next step is stopping the terrorists before they get to the border? Need I remind you that attacking them there is the official policy of the United States. So if you don’t want to interdict them en route, why not? If they’re invaders and terrorists, why would you not want that? Could it be that you know it isn’t true, but saying some milk toast version of the kouch kommando talk is supposed to shock?
Did you not view the historical document that should help you learn about how America deals with immigration.
I do note that you’ve looked up 9/11 and now actually know that it wasn’t your SIX MEN, so that’s nice.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (744849) — 10/22/2018 @ 3:48 pmDid you see the twin grain silos, that’s an iconic image when taking South Chicago Avs down there
urbanleftbehind (eed4d5) — 10/22/2018 @ 3:49 pmWelp, we’re told this is a “National Emergy”, and we were told that the wall would solve our immigration problems, and we were also told that Mexico would be negotiated into paying for 100% of the wall.
Moreover, we were told all these things by the same man.
Why won’t he take responsibility for his own failure?
He told everyone what was necessary.
Dave (9664fc) — 10/22/2018 @ 3:49 pmHe told everyone he would do it.
It didn’t get done.
Now we have a “National Emergy”.
It’s his fault.
The End.
Gryph, you do understand that the would-be immigration law criminals — even if their number includes some number of violent criminals, maybe previously deported (which is speculation, but not wildly unreasonable speculation given that we’re talking 5-7k people) — aren’t coming in Boeing 767s filled with fuel, right?
Beldar (fa637a) — 10/22/2018 @ 3:51 pmthese ones?
that’s a lovely pic it’d be worth a drive down there on a deeply wintry day to try for that shot
speaking of caravans this gives me chills
happyfeet (28a91b) — 10/22/2018 @ 3:54 pmKate’s Law was never passed, was it?
nk (dbc370) — 10/22/2018 @ 3:55 pmHow is this for an idea? ICE puts them on buses, takes them to Malibu, and tells them that Malibu is a sanctuary city and as long as they stay inside the city limits ICE will not bother the least little bit?
Do you have any favorite sanctuary cities you want to name as alternatives? We could all vote on it.
nk (dbc370) — 10/22/2018 @ 4:00 pmAre any of the people in the caravan degenerates/laughing hyenas/moral reprobates or are they just those promising to ignore US law?
harkin (3b6af9) — 10/22/2018 @ 4:03 pmBangladeshi could just as well be Rakhine burmeses, who have turned militant of late, in part with Saudi and Pakistani training, we don’t have any solid understanding about who is coming into the country from the southern border, recall the Islamic state hitman, who was discovered in san Francisco some months back,
narciso (d1f714) — 10/22/2018 @ 4:04 pm42… not bad!
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 10/22/2018 @ 4:05 pmi love how people what were ready to believe Christine Ford was almost sex-raped by Brett Kavanaugh have trouble thinking that there’s violence all up in a squalid desperate caravan of diseased uneducated hopeless downtrodden losers
happyfeet (28a91b) — 10/22/2018 @ 4:07 pmoh the Iraqi émigré who was part of a ransom ring during the first wave of the Iraq war, also covered with a pillow by homeland security,
narciso (d1f714) — 10/22/2018 @ 4:07 pm39. Last time I checked, Boeing 739’s with fuel weren’t considered military-grade weaponry. If they were, I don’t think 9/11 would have happened.
We have every right to stop that caravan outside of our sovereign soil and prevent them from coming here. We have every right to use any and all means necessary to do so. What part(s) of those two statements do you disagree with, and why?
Gryph (08c844) — 10/22/2018 @ 4:08 pm48. Or 767’s or whatever. Ten individuals (on the two planes that DID strike the twin towers) needed no weaponry, as the term is legally understood, to kill 3000 people. That should have put to lie once and for all the idea of treating an invasion force as a bunch of common criminals.
Gryph (08c844) — 10/22/2018 @ 4:09 pma reminder:
https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/se-asia/arsa-the-rohingya-militants-who-tipped-rakhine-into-crisis
narciso (d1f714) — 10/22/2018 @ 4:09 pm36. If “Trespassers will be shot” is good enough for private land, it’s good enough for national policy.
Gryph (08c844) — 10/22/2018 @ 4:10 pmthey were jets of the kind brokered by khalid bin Mahfouz back during the Clinton administration, which was curious since he was a suspect in the bcci investigation, curiously some of his offspring were the ones detained by prince salman last fall,
narciso (d1f714) — 10/22/2018 @ 4:11 pmWatching Jorge Ramos talk now–it’s no wonder he hates Trump: he resents a competitor in the “lies compulsively” arena.
M Scott Eiland (b16b32) — 10/22/2018 @ 4:11 pmA few adds for nk at 42… Milford, Connecticut… Martha’s Vineyard… Loudoun County, Virginia… Fairfax County, Virginia
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 10/22/2018 @ 4:14 pmAd hom noted. The first claim:
It’s not the first time Trump cranked out a factless tweet inspired by a factless Fox & Friends “report”.
Paul Montagu (7b9e3b) — 10/22/2018 @ 4:24 pmHopefully, the famed Mount Carmel (H.S.) Caravan athletic teams will not have to change their name. Nearby George Washington H.S. had to go from Minutemen to Patriots in the mid-00s.
urbanleftbehind (eed4d5) — 10/22/2018 @ 4:29 pmOn the other hand, the group *did* force its way through the southern border (either because they’re not just a bunch of unarmed civilians, or because the Mexican government has decided to ignore its own obligations under international law. To their credit, some of the caravan decided to seek asylum in Mexico–the ones who aren’t have no valid excuse for not doing so and should be sent back when they arrive at the US border.
M Scott Eiland (b16b32) — 10/22/2018 @ 4:30 pmActually if we could slow roll the pace (and a Hurricane set on hitting Manzanillo and Puerto Vallarta might), Ramos will be stuck down there on Election Day, not so bad a trade-off.
urbanleftbehind (eed4d5) — 10/22/2018 @ 4:31 pmWait, what?
Mexico’s enforcement of its own immigration laws are obligations under international law?
Dave (9664fc) — 10/22/2018 @ 4:33 pmSo you think we should interdict them now by all means necessary, noted.
I disagree with all of them because they are blatantly against American law and fundamentally immoral.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (ab0951) — 10/22/2018 @ 4:34 pmWell, there is the small problem of that if you actually did that you would be prosecuted for something between manslaughter and murder. It’s a neat bumper sticker, but blatantly against the law.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (ab0951) — 10/22/2018 @ 4:35 pmMpls. St. Paul
mg (a05430) — 10/22/2018 @ 4:38 pmPortland – any state
Honolulu
Austin
As a lawyer, I am always interested in learning about the law. Which American law prohibits the government of the United States from using “any and all means necessary” to prevent the unlawful entry, in explicit defiance of commands to desist, by foreign nationals into the United States?
nk (dbc370) — 10/22/2018 @ 4:39 pmI think he’s saying that we should make force Mexico to enforce our law with the threat of us breaking international law…or something.
It’s good to know that he believes international law as superseding national law and interests of a sovereign nation.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (ab0951) — 10/22/2018 @ 4:41 pmHonolulu was my other choice. Not Austin, some UT grads we know might want to visit for their reunions.
nk (dbc370) — 10/22/2018 @ 4:43 pmPosse Comitatus Act?
Dave (9664fc) — 10/22/2018 @ 4:44 pmYes, there are international laws about one nation allowing passage of criminals who intend to invade a neighboring nation.
nk (dbc370) — 10/22/2018 @ 4:46 pmIn the case of the Twin Cities and the Maine Portland, it might help in that they’d keep the skinnies in check.
urbanleftbehind (eed4d5) — 10/22/2018 @ 4:49 pmPossibly under the international agreements they signed agreeing to take in asylum seekers. There is no need for the caravan to travel any further than Mexico. And Mexico knows it.
BuDuh (fc15db) — 10/22/2018 @ 4:49 pmMexico enforced his own laws when they have seen fit, there was a period when they were ritually deporting enigres from Cuba, it occasioned a corona boy cotton in miami just like they slaughter their own student activist 1968 tlatelco iguala 2013, hunt down their own guerrillas with the troops that would become the zetas.
narciso (d1f714) — 10/22/2018 @ 4:52 pmPosse Comitatus Act?
Federal troops to enforce desegragation in Little Rock, Arkansas? Also, in what alternate universe is defending a nation’s border solely a civilian law enforcement function — any country, any time in history?
nk (dbc370) — 10/22/2018 @ 4:53 pmSenior counter-terrorism official says Trump is lying
Dave (9664fc) — 10/22/2018 @ 4:56 pmYet gave sanctuary to Salvadoran Guatemalan and Nicaraguan guerrillas they let Fidel set sail back to Cuba in 56.
narciso (d1f714) — 10/22/2018 @ 4:58 pmYou’re the lawyer, not me, but I guess the idea is that the military is supposed to be used against other military forces, not women and children.
Back to your original question, there are laws, or court rulings, about the use of deadly force by law enforcement, are there not? And don’t those stipulate that deadly force is only justified when the officer has a reasonable fear for their own immediate safety?
Dave (9664fc) — 10/22/2018 @ 5:02 pmHurricane Willa to cut across the path of caravan …
MEXICO CITY — Newly formed Hurricane Willa rapidly intensified off Mexico’s Pacific coast Sunday and early Monday and became a major Category 5 storm, the U.S. National Hurricane Center said. As of 11 a.m. ET., Willa had maximum sustained winds of 160 mph — just 3 mph over the threshold for a Category 5.
Neo (d1c681) — 10/22/2018 @ 5:03 pm(It’s not always easy for me to tell when nk is being facetious, so maybe I shouldn’t be taking his question seriously…)
Dave (9664fc) — 10/22/2018 @ 5:06 pm66. Posse Comitatus forbids the use of military force to enforce civilian law. It goes on to then define what constitutes proper and improper use of the military therein. Notably, securing international borders is specifically allowed under Posse Comitatus.
Gryph (08c844) — 10/22/2018 @ 5:10 pmWell, “as a lawyer”, you should know that under the jurisdiction of the 9th District the Fourth Amendment applies, under the 5th District it does not. In all states in the United States it is illegal to kill someone, of any nationality, without justification, self-defense is a justification because they’re foreign is not.
The Trump administration prosecuted a border patrol agent for murder in this exact scenario. The SCOTUS is currently hearing arguments to reconcile Hernandez and Rodriguez to resolve the conflict. But, “as a lawyer”, you must have already known that.
Also, it is illegal in Mexico to murder people, and if you get indicted, the US will extradite you for trial. Again, “as a lawyer”, you must have already known that.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (ab0951) — 10/22/2018 @ 5:11 pm“I guess the idea is that the military is supposed to be used against other military forces, not women and children.“
Dave (9664fc) — 10/22/2018 @ 5:02 pm
I guess what’s needed is a bogus WMD claim. Trump’s unverified claim just doesn’t have the proper provenance.
Munroe (8dc957) — 10/22/2018 @ 5:15 pmAlso, you may remember that the Trump DOJ is prosecuting one of the Blackwater contractors for another murder of civilian foreign citizens in a foreign country, the Nisour Square Massacre in Baghdad.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (744849) — 10/22/2018 @ 5:20 pmdeadly force is only justified when the officer has a reasonable fear for their own immediate safety?
Also, the safety of the public and to prevent the commission of a forcible felony. But let’s go with the officer’s own immediate safety: One Border Patrol agent stands in front of the 5,000 invaders and says “Thou shalt not pass”. They all move forward with the clear intent of committing battery upon his person. What law say he must do? What law say his fellow officers on the scene must do? I’ll give you a hint: A law enforcement officer has no duty to retreat from the threat of violence.
nk (dbc370) — 10/22/2018 @ 5:21 pmHow many “Patient Zeros” are within the caravan?
We have already subjected our citizens to all manner of exotic, if not formerly eradicated, disease. Any unfortunate who contracts said disease is every bit the victim as any person shot with a bullet.
This is no joke. This is an existential crisis. The caravan is an unusually on-point manifestation.
They must be stopped. By any means necessary. It’s their choice. Turn around and no harm will come to them by our hands.
Ed from SFV (6d42fa) — 10/22/2018 @ 5:21 pmColonel Klink (Ret) @78. Nope. I do not know any of those things. Further, I doubt that a person who says “9th District” and “5th District” really does either.
nk (dbc370) — 10/22/2018 @ 5:24 pmNo, it does not. If it is the governor calling up the guard for support of law enforcement it is legal. But of course, this isn’t that.
President Trump recently announced that “we’re going to be guarding our border with the military” until a border wall between the U.S.-Mexico border can be completed. That completion date remains uncertain in light of so many questions governing the wall’s funding and construction. The president has apparently discussed the military’s movement to the border with his top national security advisors to include Defense Secretary Jim Mattis. It appears that Trump will release a proclamation directing the Department of Defense and the Department of Homeland Security to work with governors to deploy National Guard troops to the southwest border to assist the Border Patrol in combating illegal immigration. Nevertheless, questions remain: What parts of the military will be used?; Who is paying for this? What is the legal authority and what will they be doing? I want to highlight four key initial takeaways to focus your attention on the core legal issues as a “militarized border” implementation plan develops. While it is too simplistic to state that the “president can or can’t do this” – he faces enormous legal challenges and restrictions that will likely thwart his aspirations.
First and foremost, if the president orders federal active-duty military personnel to provide direct support to law enforcement or operate as the functional equivalent of a domestic law enforcement agency on the border, the 1878 Posse Comitatus Act (PCA) applies, which prohibits such activity. In its present form, the law states:
Whoever, except in cases and under circumstances authorized by the Constitution or Act of Congress, willfully uses any part of the Army or the Air Force as a posse comitatus or otherwise to execute the laws shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both.
So the PCA prevents members of the regular Army and Air Force (so-called “Title 10” forces) from being used in a law enforcement capacity to “execute the laws.” Absent from the text is any reference to the Navy or Marines, but their ability to participate in law enforcement matters is prohibited pursuant to Department of Defense (DoD) regulation. In another twist, the PCA and its governing regulations do not apply to the Coast Guard. Jurisdictionally, while it remains unclear how the PCA applies outside the United States, it clearly applies to military forces stationed inside the United States to include any troop movement to the Mexico border.
Further confusing matters, the strange term “posse comitatus” is difficult to apply in the modern context. It is a reference to the 19th century problem that the Act sought, in part, to solve – the commandeering of federal troops on the Western frontier to enforce local criminal laws. The days of gathering a “posse” by the local sheriff to hunt down criminals remains, thankfully, in the distant past. Nevertheless, we are stuck with this dated term.
Second, certain exemptions are baked into the PCA’s text and DoD’s implementing regulations. Of central importance is the question of how might the administration attempt to use these legal exemptions to navigate around the blanket prohibition on using the military as a federal law enforcement entity? For example, the PCA does not apply to National Guard members when operating pursuant to state authorities (so-called “Title 32” authorities). On a day-to-day basis, these National Guard troops fall outside the federal chain of command absent an independent trigger that federalizes the force – more on that below. But it remains unclear how the state governors who have first-line authority over their respective National Guards will react to the President’s insistence that they secure the U.S. border. They are certainly not required to do so. For example, does anyone really believe that Governor Jerry Brown will order the California National Guard to secure the border in light of the Trump declaration? I don’t.
In addition, within the law’s text, the PCA carves out an important exemption: a separate “Act of Congress” can remove the PCA’s restrictions. The Insurrection Act, dating from 1807, warrants the most scrutiny. This law authorizes the President to use the armed forces to enforce the law when:
there is an insurrection within a state, and the state legislature (or governor if the state legislature cannot be convened) requests assistance; or
the “President considers that unlawful obstructions . . . assemblages, or rebellion against the authority of the United States make it impracticable to enforce the laws of the United States by the ordinary course of judicial proceedings.”
Under the Insurrection Act, the President could legally federalize the National Guard and use the regular military to enforce the law. But there are enormous, likely insurmountable problems with invoking this act’s authority. And the facts that could justify its invocation simply aren’t there. Fundamentally, the states have not requested this authority. And there is no “unlawful obstruction or rebellion” that Trump can easily point to.
Indeed, presidential invocation of the Insurrection Act has been used sparingly and in truly extraordinary circumstances throughout American history: it was last invoked by President George H.W. Bush in the 1992 Los Angeles riots, and was invoked by President Eisenhower in 1957 in Little Rock, Arkansas to ensure the enrollment of African-American schoolchildren in the face of state defiance of a federal court order. Does anyone realistically believe that the migrant “crisis” rises to this level? Any purported migrant “crisis” not only lacks the statutory triggering threshold, it doesn’t pass the historical litmus test. Illegal crossings at the border last year were at the lowest level since 1971.
In making his case to the public, Trump will likely highlight the two circumstances when the Bush and Obama Administrations ordered the military to the U.S.-Mexico border. But in both circumstances, the state governors of California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas were the ones requesting federal assistance. Here, the roles are reversed and Trump is providing a solution in search of a problem. When Obama and Bush turned to the military in 2006 and 2010, the federal government provided the funding for the National Guard, which remained under the command and control of the governors. Title 32 allows for federal funding of state-controlled National Guard units to include “homeland defense activities” which “includes a threat of aggression against the United States.” But are the migrants crossing the border a threat of aggression against the United States?
Finally, any invocation of the Insurrection Act declaration would likely be subject to judicial challenges: plaintiffs would assert that the President exceeded his constitutional powers and acted outside the scope of his congressionally delegated powers. And they would likely win.
Third, while the PCA prevents the military from providing direct and active support to law enforcement, courts have held that the PCA’s prohibitions do not apply to indirect assistance to law enforcement. But in both circumstances, the military forces operated under very restrictive Rules of Engagement and provided surveillance, administrative, and logistical support to the Customs and Border Patrol – what can fairly be described as indirect support. They did not arrest immigrants attempting to cross the border, precisely because the PCA prohibits such direct assistance.
Relatedly, military members, regardless of their chain of command and legal authority, are clearly authorized to defend the nation from an armed attack and provide for the nation’s defense. Immigration enforcement and policy is outside the historic ambit of the DoD since the nation’s founding and this authority currently resides within the Department of Homeland Security. To assert that the military is taking part in a broader national defense mission defies logic, agency practice, and traditional definitions of historical military functions. And does anyone truly believe that illegal immigration amounts to an armed attack?
Fourth, let’s assume that the military is ordered to the border and the PCA is violated. What are the legal remedies if a violation is found? While the PCA is fundamentally a criminal statute – it is located within Title 18 of U.S. Code that addresses federal criminal law – it has not been enforced against military members as such. Courts have been willing to address the contours of the PCA’s applicability, but in the context of defense counsel requests to exclude evidence obtained by military members taking an active role in law enforcement. In the case of troops deployed to the U.S.-Mexico border who take an active role in law enforcement, those evidentiary challenges are unlikely to arise. The PCA doesn’t criminalize the behavior of the military member herself. It criminalizes the person who willfully uses the soldier as part of a law enforcement mechanism. The obvious questions here include: How far up the chain of command does this apply? Will a superior officer be potentially liable for a criminal violation? What, then, is the practical remedy for a PCA violation? It remains unclear.
Right now, there are more questions than answers about Trump’s latest militarized border pronouncement, but keep a close eye on any forthcoming implementation plan. He faces enormous legal restrictions and challenges in following through on these aspirations. The devil, as they say, is in the details – these four takeaways will help get you started.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (744849) — 10/22/2018 @ 5:29 pm(It’s not always easy for me to tell when nk is being facetious, so maybe I shouldn’t be taking his question seriously…)
In the best arguments, you try as best as you can to let your opponent put in the last piece of the jigsaw or, if you prefer, fill in the blank. That way he persuades himself.
nk (dbc370) — 10/22/2018 @ 5:32 pmIdeally, teaching works pretty much the same way.
Apparently some Greek dude named “Socrates” came up with the idea. Maybe you heard of him.
Dave (9664fc) — 10/22/2018 @ 5:45 pmIndeed.
If only our president had been able to get money for a wall from Mexico, as he promised so many times.
He’s doomed us ALL!
Dave (9664fc) — 10/22/2018 @ 5:55 pmBlather… Rinse… Repeat…
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 10/22/2018 @ 6:00 pmBut of course, I don’t claim to be “as a lawyer”, so United States Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit and United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit, does that make you happy “as a lawyer”.
So how about commenting on Rodriguez v. Swartz or Hernandez v. Mesa and the conflict between Rodriguez and Bivens v. Six Unknown Named Agents, and why the SCOTUS is taking it up?
Of course for Lonnie Ray Swartz who was prosecuted for second-degree murder by the DOJ for shooting Rodriguez, so that really didn’t help him. A jury found him not guilty 7-5, but he’s being retried for other counts.
So it does appear that it is illegal, at least the DOJ thinks so. If a border patrol agent can be prosecuted for shooting a Mexican kid in Mexico for throwing rocks at him, any member of the military shooting civilians trying to cross the border would be under threat of civilian prosecution. Of course, it’s also most likely against the UCMJ as well.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (ab0951) — 10/22/2018 @ 6:03 pmNo, for the most part Socrates bullied and hoaxed with false dichotomies. He was kind of a dick, really. The Sophists, like Protagoras, were the superior rhetoricians.
nk (dbc370) — 10/22/2018 @ 6:09 pmWhat the ACLU is taking a case to the 9th circus, that’s news that dog bites man.
Narciso (d1f714) — 10/22/2018 @ 6:10 pmMedia Matters talking points, narciso.
nk (dbc370) — 10/22/2018 @ 6:13 pm90. The sophists didn’t have students like Plato to transmit their teachings. On his own, Socrates would have faded into obscurity.
Gryph (08c844) — 10/22/2018 @ 6:13 pmNo need to ask what the abbreviation “Ret.” is for…
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 10/22/2018 @ 6:15 pmIf the military cannot defend against an invasion, then the law is an ass.
Kevin M (a57144) — 10/22/2018 @ 6:15 pm95. I hold lawyers in roughly the same esteem as politicians and police officers — which is to say, not much.
Gryph (08c844) — 10/22/2018 @ 6:16 pmI think those were special circumstance:
http://www.scotusblog.com/2017/06/immigration-symposium-prelude-turning-point/
Narciso (d1f714) — 10/22/2018 @ 6:17 pmIt’s hard to say how much of The Dialogues is Socrates, how much is Plato, and (this is just me) how much is revisionism by the Stoics.
nk (dbc370) — 10/22/2018 @ 6:18 pmFinally, even Trump agrees: It’s not a binary choice!
I didn’t watch the rally, but I infer from the press coverage that Trump didn’t say anything else particularly cringeworthy, which I’m sure is a huge relief to Ted Cruz.
Beldar (fa637a) — 10/22/2018 @ 6:20 pm98. The Dialogues are generally accepted to have been written down by Plato acting in a scribal capacity some time after Socrates’ death. There is not much scholarly evidence for this, but continuing tradition hasn’t wavered much from this idea.
Gryph (08c844) — 10/22/2018 @ 6:20 pmIf a soldier fires on people intent on crossing into the United States unlawfully, given an order to do so, he will not be prosecuted. An officer who gave the command might be, but if the command was clearly relayed down the chain of command, not even that. They prosecuted Calley since he HAD given the order and his superior denied that he had, too.
Kevin M (a57144) — 10/22/2018 @ 6:21 pmTrump also told the crowd to vote for Rep. Ted Poe
Yeah, Trump’s research was flawed there.
/sarc
Kevin M (a57144) — 10/22/2018 @ 6:23 pmEither we have a border or we don’t. There is no “kinda-maybe” here. Recently, the answer has been “No”, and turning that to “Yes” will require some adamancy. Pretty much like what happened in Little Rock, where locals thought there was no way the feds could enforce their integration decision.
Kevin M (a57144) — 10/22/2018 @ 6:29 pmBeldar – There were a few more references to Israel and to God than in his standard stump speech. The place went wild. The other thing which got the biggest reaction, as far as I could discern from TV was when he invoked, “Jobs vs. Mobs.”
I was warmed to see him give Louie Gohmert unusual attention and praise. DJT called LG up to the stage. The crowd loved it. So did I.
Ed from SFV (6d42fa) — 10/22/2018 @ 6:49 pmhttps://static.pjmedia.com/instapundit/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Screen-Shot-2018-10-22-at-9.50.19-PM.png
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 10/22/2018 @ 6:59 pmHere’s yer emergy, Dave… https://twitter.com/bennyjohnson/status/1054430753801560067
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 10/22/2018 @ 7:05 pm“Make America Great Again” rally at… Toyota Center.
You know what the difference between the rally crowd in Montana and the rally crowd in Texas was?
Nothing.
Great entertainment.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 10/22/2018 @ 7:06 pm““Make America Great Again” rally at… Toyota Center.”
Maybe they should have held it at one of the six Toyota factories in the US.
harkin (e2dce3) — 10/22/2018 @ 7:13 pmNot the first time:
Narciso (d1f714) — 10/22/2018 @ 7:14 pmhttps://pjmedia.com/blog/dhs-released-terror-operative-who-illegally-crossed-border-pjm-exclusive/
CSPAN
@cspan
Former President
@BarackObama
: “When you hear all this talk about economic miracles right now, remember who started it.”
__ _
Ecklebob Chiselfritz
@RotNScoundrel
In his 8 yr tenure, Barack Obama sent ONE, yes ONE budget proposal to Congress.
It was for three trillion dollars and was shot down in the Senate by a vote of 98-0.
Not even one dem senator voted for Mr Economic Miracle’s one stab at economics.
harkin (e2dce3) — 10/22/2018 @ 7:15 pmJudicialWatch and its dupes and cronies
I know your just quoting an opinion, but this blog has often been laudatory of Judicial Watch, particularly wrt Clintonian malfeasance and the IRS targeting of conservatives.
Kevin M (a57144) — 10/22/2018 @ 7:16 pm*you’re
gah!
Kevin M (a57144) — 10/22/2018 @ 7:17 pm@108. Indeed. Robots are always welcomed there.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 10/22/2018 @ 7:19 pmSo I guess my question is “Why don’t the people who have lived and worked in the US and been deported get busy and build prosperous democratic republics in Honduras and Guatamala?” They have the model of how it’s done right in front of them. And they have been here to see it work.
Rock Bottom (5a4596) — 10/22/2018 @ 7:50 pmFalse narrative, I think.
The majority of people trying to enter the US illegally are turned back.
Also, since 2006, crossing over the Mexican border has not been the predominant way illegals arrive in the US. Far more enter legally and then overstay their visas.
Dave (9664fc) — 10/22/2018 @ 8:14 pmReport from tonight’s rally:
Dana (023079) — 10/22/2018 @ 8:29 pmMainly, because people that are deported for illegal immigration are poor and uneducated with no power. If they had any 2 of those, they wouldn’t flee their country in the first place. One of them may even be enough, but that’s not reality for migrants coming here.
The H1B workers are a different story, and fundamentally a bigger problem as it drastically throws off wage scales, in job areas that are not minimum wage. An H1B buys you 9 years to get your green card, and if a green card app is pending you get to stay, so adding 65k to 195k, relatively low, wage earners into the tech sector means somewhere around 750k-2mill workers are diluting the wage pool. I’ve seen internal studies that show that after about 7 years it evens out, but is that earnings leveling at a lower wage rate than a non-laundered labor cost would be. That was one area that I was hoping Trump would actually put some teeth in. I’m all for bringing in high skill workers, but that’s not what tech has been doing, it’s bringing in relatively mid-tier skilled folks, with much lower wage demands.
This has led a lot of the Indian ITO suppliers to begin onshoring workers to the US, but via a bunch of temporary visa workarounds, and just deluging the visa process to get their people in the US via H level visas vs high skill or research workers. Then there is the selling of investor grade E visa’s, which is a whole different problem.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (ffba1f) — 10/22/2018 @ 8:38 pmI don’t think the H1B visa workers are the problem themselves, the companies that use it for the purpose of cheap(er) labor are misusing the process. Since the limits haven’t been enforced, that’s just standard operating procedure.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (ffba1f) — 10/22/2018 @ 8:41 pmSo, what’s the actual answer? Either we can’t stop large groups like this on the border or we can. If we can what’s the mechanism?
Is there any reason to keep debating whether we can napalm a group of people in Mexico.
frosty48 (6226c1) — 10/22/2018 @ 8:48 pmOff topic:
The SCOTUS did something today that isn’t precedential, but that is very danged interesting, and actually, to my way of thinking, more than a little encouraging. As summarized at the indispensable SCOTUSblog:
What’s particularly interesting isn’t this result on the stay application, but a separate opinion from Justice Gorsuch in which he basically calls B.S. on the Left’s favorite new legal tactic, which consists of imputing evil and illegal intent to all Republicans because they’re, well, Republicans (boldface mine):
After summarizing the “split baby” result on the stay application, with one deposition being permitted to go forward, Justice Gorsuch writes:
This is a very deliberate shot across the bow of these, and similar, lawfare plaintiffs. Indeed, it’s interesting precisely because it’s a shot across the bow from the SCOTUS’ maximum range.
I don’t think he’d have written this unless he were already very, very confident that there will be at least five votes, meaning a binding precedential effect, on the merits in fairly short order. This opinion suggests to me that there’s a solid majority ready, willing, able, and in Justice Gorsuch’s case (and Justice Thomas’, who joined in this short opinion today) eager to subject the entire Executive Branch to continuous real-time litigation — and litigation abuse — over every ongoing function of government.
Beldar (fa637a) — 10/22/2018 @ 9:26 pmACK.
Major editing error on my part, resulting in #120 above saying the opposite of what I meant to say. The last sentence ought to have read:
This opinion suggests to me that there’s a solid majority ready, willing, able, and in Justice Gorsuch’s case (and Justice Thomas’, who joined in this short opinion today) eager to prevent the entire Executive Branch from being subjected to continuous real-time litigation — and litigation abuse — over every ongoing function of government.
Beldar (fa637a) — 10/22/2018 @ 9:30 pmI was hoping to see something about this smack down on the blog. Thank you, Beldar. These are fun tea leaves to read!
Ed from SFV (6d42fa) — 10/22/2018 @ 9:47 pmHere’s the district court order that was stayed — a pompous piece of twaddle from Obama appointee Jesse M. Furman which presumes to set Secretary Ross good and straight regarding the real priorities of his job, which is to respond to policy opponents via federal court lawfare, of course.
I’ll bet Judge Furman is not a happy camper tonight, though. To give you an idea of his judicial temperament, here’s some venting he did in another order, which wasn’t stayed:
Secretary Ross’ deposition was supposed to be the last pretrial discovery to be completed, but under today’s SCOTUS order (joined by at least five Justices), it will be stayed indefinitely pending the SCOTUS’ resolution of the anticipated petition for certiorari from the Commerce Department, provided that such petition is filed within the week. Let’s see whether Judge Furman has the judicial cajones to start the trial on November 5 anyway, even without Secretary Ross’ deposition having been taken.
Beldar (fa637a) — 10/22/2018 @ 10:01 pmNo time for extensive comments, but just want to point out, in case nobody has done so, that Bangladesh is not in the Middle East.
Trump’s claim was technically in error; rather than claiming as a fact that the caravan includes criminals and Middle Easterners of unknown character, he should have said that this is a very real and worrying possibility. More to the point, it is very possible that it includes gangsters, dedicated jihadists, or both, and that alone is enough reason to do all we can to stop it.
milhouse (a81aba) — 10/22/2018 @ 10:37 pm5000 divided by 18
mg (9e54f8) — 10/22/2018 @ 10:47 pmSo the Hondurans are painting swastikas on our flag and then lighting it on fire. I imagine the NFL Players will attempt this revolting act next.
mg (9e54f8) — 10/22/2018 @ 10:55 pmRe Posse comitatus, border enforcement is not law enforcement. It’s an entirely different kind of activity, and the idea that the armed forces are forbidden from doing it is just too ridiculous for words. So that huge cut-and-paste from CNN does not impress me at all.
And once again, the fact that some members of the caravan come from the same country as some terrorists is certainly not evidence that they are terrorists, and it absolutely does not support Trump’s claim about “unknown Middle Easterners”. But it does highlight that we don’t know who’s coming over our border, and that ought to worry us.
milhouse (a81aba) — 10/22/2018 @ 11:07 pmWonder what the plan is for Mob 5000 when they hit the states? Disperse in different directions as to not get caught for just committing a felony? Or hold out ones hands for cuffs and 3 squares? No horde of illegals is going to be shot.
mg (9e54f8) — 10/22/2018 @ 11:20 pmGang of illegals coming to a border town soon
mg (9e54f8) — 10/22/2018 @ 11:21 pmI occasionally humor myself by blowing my intro physics students’ minds with Zeno’s paradoxes.
The Sophists may have been superior rhetoricians, but they sucked at calculus.
Dave (9664fc) — 10/22/2018 @ 11:27 pmAt the Cruz rally, Trump explicitly (and without a shred of evidence, of course) accused the Democrats of somehow organizing and launching the immigrant caravan:
Dave (9664fc) — 10/22/2018 @ 11:53 pmSanctuary cities entice these mobs to form, along with COC dick head Donahue.
mg (9e54f8) — 10/23/2018 @ 12:19 am@131. “At the Cruz rally” Ted’s second or third remark was a bold declaration: “God bless Donald Trump!” Later he vowed to campaign for our Captain in 2020. Unclear if that was ‘Lyin’ Ted’ or ‘Beautiful Ted’ stumping, but it was certainly comedy gold.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 10/23/2018 @ 12:54 amthey tried to blow up soros tonight but failed.
lany (8d29f7) — 10/23/2018 @ 1:47 amTwitter is the Devil’s Dandruff… https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2018/10/twitter-yes-to-ahmadinejad-no-to-the-gay-patriot.php
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 10/23/2018 @ 2:21 ampulling a caravan on another country’s pretty much same as rape i think don’t you agree senator whitehouse
happyfeet (28a91b) — 10/23/2018 @ 4:35 amDave, don’t you think the Democrats had more than a little to do with it? Who do you think did organize and fund it, and for what purpose, if not to affect US politics?
milhouse (a81aba) — 10/23/2018 @ 5:57 amI’m with Milhouse; after all, as Simon Jester pointed out earlier, cui bono?
felipe (5b25e2) — 10/23/2018 @ 6:20 amSometimes hatred trumps one’s professed conservative values… snicker… snicker…
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 10/23/2018 @ 6:21 amWho organized wagon trains and cattle drives during the settling of the West? Look for the money, first.
nk (dbc370) — 10/23/2018 @ 6:29 amdid the cattles have typhus and head lice though
happyfeet (28a91b) — 10/23/2018 @ 6:34 amTime to test those non-lethal mob control weapons that DARPA has been developing.
bud (b48f3e) — 10/23/2018 @ 6:38 amHeadlines have been written proclaiming that a “caravan of migrants” is heading for the U.S./Mexican border. Sometimes the people who are heading north through Central America are referred to as “refugees” or “immigrants.”
Those terms are designed to downplay the threat that these individuals pose and assuage the fears that this may understandably engender in Americans. Words do matter.
In point of fact, the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA) defines an alien simply as being, “Any person, not a citizen or national of the United States.”
There is no insult in the term “alien” or in its definition, but there is clarity. The obvious goal of the radical Left is to obfuscate the truth through Orwellian use of language that has been mis-portrayed as “political correctness”.
…”Remarkably, the radical Left had no problem using the term “alien” when they needed a word that began with the letter “A” for the DREAM Act, an acronym for Development, Relief and Education for Alien Minors.
While we are on the topic of words, perhaps the term “invasion” should be substituted for “caravan.”
Invasion is defined, in part, as an incursion by a large number of people or things into a place or sphere of activity or an unwelcome intrusion into another’s domain.
It is therefore important to note that Article IV, Section 4 of the U.S. Constitution provides:
The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic violence.
Furthermore, the mainstream media has blithely ignored a fact that was reported upon on October 18, 2018 by Judicial Watch:
100 ISIS Terrorists Caught in Guatemala as Central American Caravan Heads to U.S.
This eye-opening report began with this sentence:
In a startling revelation, Guatemala’s president announced in the country’s largest newspaper that nearly 100 ISIS terrorists have been apprehended in the impoverished Central American nation.
Now the growing mob of aspiring illegal aliens is heading to the United States, purportedly to seek political asylum here. When interviewed by reporters, some of these people have claimed that they were living in poverty and wanted better opportunities in the United States, while others talked about their fear of violence in their home countries.
They have undoubtedly been encouraged by the leadership of the Democrat Party which treats illegal aliens with reverence while castigating ICE agents who routinely go in harm’s way to investigate and arrest aliens engaged in criminal activities in the U.S. Certainly, demands made by the leaders of the Democrat Party that ICE be disbanded altogether and all interior enforcement of our immigration laws be terminated are music to the ears of these aliens.
Sanctuary cities beckon illegal aliens and the criminals, gang members, fugitives and terrorists among them, encouraging them and inducing them to head for the United States and claim “asylum.”
However, when an individual flees his/her native country seeking asylum, they are supposed to apply for asylum in the first country that they enter. Hondurans entering Guatemala, for example, should apply for asylum in Guatemala. Furthermore, asylum claims are supposed to be solely based on the applicant demonstrating a “credible fear” that he/she faces persecution or worse, because of their race, religion, political views or other such factors.”
https://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/271692/impending-alien-invasion-michael-cutler
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 10/23/2018 @ 6:39 am“I guess the idea is that the military is supposed to be used against other military forces, not women and children.”
Our military, like most militaries, has a looonnng history of using force against women and children. Let’s not pretend otherwise.
Leviticus (f67b87) — 10/23/2018 @ 6:41 amIf this caravan comes knockin’, best get to glockin’…
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 10/23/2018 @ 6:45 amWhere is their estimated landfall? California, New Mexico, Texas, or Arizona?
nk (dbc370) — 10/23/2018 @ 6:48 am140… Ward Bond died an indigent.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 10/23/2018 @ 6:49 am146… if it’s soft underbelly they seek, California is tehplace they oughtta be…
so let’s load ‘em on a bus and move’em all to Beverly… Hills that is… swimmin’ pools… movie stars
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 10/23/2018 @ 6:53 amCome and listen to my story about a man named Juan
A poor sharecropper, for a peso, he’d be gone
And then one day they was formin a parade
Just the clothes on his back, didn’t need no lemonade
Or tequila, entonces, por favor
Well the first thing you know ol Juan’s 10 thousand strong
His kinfolk said “Juan, can we come along?”
Said “ol’ Aztlan is the place we ought to be”
So they loaded up the bus and they moved to Beverly
Hills, that is. Swimmin pools… movie stars.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 10/23/2018 @ 7:07 amHA! very good, Colonel.
felipe (5b25e2) — 10/23/2018 @ 7:39 amGood mornin’, felipe!!!
Colonel Haiku (311cb7) — 10/23/2018 @ 7:41 amTell them that Jay Leno has a ’57 Chevy in his garage, and they’ll find their own way there.
nk (dbc370) — 10/23/2018 @ 7:46 amLet me give you the Religious perspective:
Deuteronomy 23:7
Do not despise an Edomite, for he is your brother. Do not despise an Egyptian, because you lived as a foreigner in his land.
Deuteronomy 23:16
Let him live among you wherever he chooses, in the town of his pleasing. Do not oppress him.
Deuteronomy 27:19
Cursed is he who withholds justice from the foreigner, the fatherless, or the widow.’ And let all the people say, ‘Amen!’
Psalm 146:9
The LORD protects the sojourners; He sustains the fatherless and the widow, but the ways of the wicked He frustrates.
Jeremiah 7:6
if you no longer oppress the foreigner, the fatherless, and the widow, and no longer shed innocent blood in this place or follow other gods to your own harm,
Jeremiah 22:3
This is what the LORD says: Administer justice and righteousness. Rescue the victim of robbery from the hand of his oppressor. Do no wrong or violence to the foreigner, the fatherless, or the widow. Do not shed innocent blood in this place.
Ezekiel 22:7
Father and mother are treated with contempt. Within your walls the foreign resident is exploited, the fatherless and the widow are oppressed.
Zechariah 7:10
Do not oppress the widow or the fatherless, the foreigner or the poor. And do not plot evil in your hearts against one another.’
This isn’t hard – NO, wait: it is, very hard.
But we must render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s. If the legitimate authorities decide on something that does not go against the moral law….
felipe (5b25e2) — 10/23/2018 @ 7:50 am152, this is more of a ’89 Corrolla crowd.
urbanleftbehind (eed4d5) — 10/23/2018 @ 7:54 am“At the Cruz rally, Trump explicitly (and without a shred of evidence, of course) accused the Democrats of somehow organizing and launching the immigrant caravan”
Dave (9664fc) — 10/22/2018 @ 11:53 pm
Maybe he’s basing his claim on a counterintelligence investigation backed by a FISA warrant — ya know, just like all those legit allegations.
Munroe (62c16c) — 10/23/2018 @ 8:02 amDo they want to become American citizens or to turn America into a Centralamerican basket case?
Rau8l Alessandri MD (b5d6c6) — 10/23/2018 @ 8:16 amTry to come through the door.
they’re terrible people (they have bugs) and we need a wall cause they’re gonna keep trying to pull a caravan on us over and over and over like how they did on kitty genovese (nobody would help)
happyfeet (28a91b) — 10/23/2018 @ 8:20 amHow many miles from the Mexican/Guatemalan border to the border between the US and Mexico? A long way to walk… what… might take 60 to 70 days?
I see people walking, but no bedrolls, no food, no water is being carried. Is this a catered caravan?
Colonel Haiku (311cb7) — 10/23/2018 @ 8:24 am153. Let me give you the practical perspective: We are incapable of supporting everyone who wishes to come here. We have established law regarding the proper way to do so. We have no obligation, moral or otherwise, to non-citizens.
Gryph (08c844) — 10/23/2018 @ 8:27 am#159 — Speaking practically, then. How much of the government’s resources should be spent on border enforcement. How should we structure the law — super duper exclusionist, with legal and illegal immigration being cut back? Or do you favor a fairly loose law, but such law as we agree to is stringently enforced.
I think the immigration debate since Reagan has been full of bad faith, and that’s really the problem we have. People talk and legislate tough, and then refuse to enforce. That’s unfair to almost everyone, as the law becomes a fraud, and people who choose to immigrate and get let in are subject to eternal, unending uncertainty.
Appalled (96665e) — 10/23/2018 @ 8:37 amLet’s home the caraveners have not read Deuteronomy 20, felipe:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+20&version=NIV
nk (dbc370) — 10/23/2018 @ 8:39 am
nk (dbc370) — 10/23/2018 @ 8:41 amhomehope. Darn that Freud!160. Fair questions all. I am for enforcing the law as it now stands. Then and only then will I be ready to discuss whether we need more law or less. We can not rationally discuss the adequacy of the law as it stands if we are not enforcing it.
I am not a Numbers USA guy, if that’s what you’re wondering. But every time the lawyers and the politicians chime in on why we can’t enforce the law as it stands, I do get a little more sympathetic to the Numbers USA position.
Gryph (08c844) — 10/23/2018 @ 8:47 amFirst the few
mg (9e54f8) — 10/23/2018 @ 8:50 amNow the masses
R.R. Should have built that wall.
In Psalm 137 the Edomites get their babies heads bashed in
steveg (a9dcab) — 10/23/2018 @ 9:04 amfelipe-
We have systems in place to care for foreigners. Its a permanent resident card, a visa etc. The transaction is to be done in a lawful and orderly fashion. The caravan is an unlawful, disorderly group that will demand the same rights as those who completely the legal and orderly transaction.
The Bible doesn’t tell us we have to let people who break into our home stay… with us then feeding and sheltering everyone who has kicked in the door.
my feeling is that the caravan will continue to grow as it reaches closer to the USA, picking up Mexican opportunists who don’t want to pay a coyote.
on a side note, I wonder how well hf’s much loved law enforcement and intelligence angencies have done infiltrating the mob organizers. Jeff Sessions talks a good illegal immigrant game and is working MS-13 but as a leader, he’s a marshmallow
steveg (a9dcab) — 10/23/2018 @ 9:16 amI don’t think the Democrats had anything at all to do with it. It was organized by a group called Pueblo Sin Fronteras, who has been organizing similar caravans for the last 15 years.
The purpose, obviously, is for the participants to find a better and safer life.
The suggestion that thousands of impoverished people, including their children, would undertake a dangerous trek of thousands of miles merely to affect US politics is risible.
Dave (9664fc) — 10/23/2018 @ 9:19 amHow do they cover so much ground so fast? Are they training for the Olympic speed walk? Or are they hitching a ride?
mg (9e54f8) — 10/23/2018 @ 9:23 amSo you realize that the law as it now stands allows people to apply for asylum, and that last spring, about 244 people from the last caravan were lawfully admitted to the US after applying for asylum?
Many others were turned away, also in accordance with the law.
Dave (9664fc) — 10/23/2018 @ 9:23 amNike is missing a golden opportunity by not clothing these invaders. Just do it seems to fit.
mg (9e54f8) — 10/23/2018 @ 9:25 amAll these invaders look like they just came out of a Target dressing room. And those brand new baby strollers make me wonder wtf.
mg (a05430) — 10/23/2018 @ 9:35 amA couple of years ago, being subject to “uncertainty” in the confines of a Target dressing room would have qualified as a hardship meriting asylum.
urbanleftbehind (5eecdb) — 10/23/2018 @ 9:37 amThe purpose, obviously, is for the participants to find a better and safer life. By any means necessary.
FIFY
Colonel Haiku (311cb7) — 10/23/2018 @ 9:40 amWas that Jose Cuervo leading the toast? Cheers to the future farmers of America.
mg (9e54f8) — 10/23/2018 @ 9:48 amOT – its not quite Metallica’s rumored titled for its debut album, but…http://www.yahoo.com/news/sky-sources-jamal-khashoggis-body-parts-found-120700198.html
urbanleftbehind (5eecdb) — 10/23/2018 @ 9:50 amHow long until the democrats propose a bill that would move the Statue of Liberty to the Rio Grande?
mg (a05430) — 10/23/2018 @ 10:04 amsteveg (a9dcab) — 10/23/2018 @ 9:16 am
I completely agree, Steveg. I did say it was hard.
nk (dbc370) — 10/23/2018 @ 8:39 am
I hope they have read that passage, nk. It should disabuse them of any erroneous notions.
felipe (5b25e2) — 10/23/2018 @ 10:21 amColonel Haiku (311cb7) — 10/23/2018 @ 8:24 am
What an astute observation, colonel. I guess that is what they call a “tell.”
felipe (5b25e2) — 10/23/2018 @ 10:23 amClearly, to avoid Posse Comitatus problems, the US Military will have to interdict the convoy on Mexican soil.
I’m sure they’ll be happy to let us given that they found themselves unable to do it.
Ingot9455 (68bf96) — 10/23/2018 @ 10:39 amActually its kemal ataturks vault, re erdogans pitch for ncis ankara, actually there is a series inspector cengul
narciso (d1f714) — 10/23/2018 @ 10:58 amTurkish chutzpah:
https://mobile.twitter.com/abdbozkurt/status/1054680887516897280
narciso (d1f714) — 10/23/2018 @ 11:01 amSo this caravan is a thousand miles from the US border and they won’t arrive at the Rio Grande for another four months, yet this is a political issue today? Fifteen days before an election? This Trump-led party is still trending toward an intellectually vacuous, nationalist wasteland. If or when they actually show up some time next February, our US Border Patrol should be ready to deal with ’em.
Paul Montagu (7b9e3b) — 10/23/2018 @ 11:03 amThis fellow was burned by the German successor to agwww.newsmax.com/newsfront/khashoggi-roule-saudis/2018/10/23/id/887550/ee:
narciso (d1f714) — 10/23/2018 @ 11:04 amYou live in Seattle but in the Orlando area, its on 24/7
narciso (d1f714) — 10/23/2018 @ 11:07 amThey alternate between foot and bus….if I had a spare $20, I’ll go against the grain and pick CHINA as my karnak-card answer.
And Narciso, you sure its not Inspector Cenk Uygur?
urbanleftbehind (5eecdb) — 10/23/2018 @ 11:12 amThe caravan was apparently organized by bartolo fuentes a congressman from zelayas party Libra, the one that Obama tried to put back in office.
No this guy looks like Clive Owen.
narciso (d1f714) — 10/23/2018 @ 11:17 amThis one:
https://watch.mhzchoice.com/homicide-unit-istanbul
narciso (d1f714) — 10/23/2018 @ 11:19 amThat dude disappeared from the brink of being Bond-cast and to think his American TV debut was in a 1993 Civil War meets Outsiders-like Class of ’61 (note Dan Futterman could be cast as Ted Cruz)
urbanleftbehind (5eecdb) — 10/23/2018 @ 11:21 amAs compared whose nice in the running Richard .madden, from that body guard series, now on netflux
narciso (d1f714) — 10/23/2018 @ 11:24 amFacts don’t matter, such as the baseless claims from Trump and others that Soros or Democrats or US-backed NGOs organized the caravan. It’s all about the scaremongering. But that said, if or when they show up, it’ll be a challenge to deal with.
Paul Montagu (7b9e3b) — 10/23/2018 @ 11:31 amWhy are they baseless, because Pueblo sin frontera has done this in the past.
narciso (d1f714) — 10/23/2018 @ 11:38 amNooooo. It’s all about teh timing.
Colonel Haiku (311cb7) — 10/23/2018 @ 11:39 amThe remnants of NeverTrump, the Democrats and teh MSM – BIRM – are beside themselves that they can’t convince ALL the people that Trump is Hitler. It has become a manifestation of a mental disorder.
Colonel Haiku (311cb7) — 10/23/2018 @ 11:54 amAt a bare minimum, there is no genuine dispute over whether the Democrats — collectively through the DNC, and in the aggregate through their various elected officials and candidates for office and advocacy groups — have worked hard, and continue to work hard, against strict enforcement of the existing U.S. immigration laws. Indeed, the “rock stars” of the Democratic Party have dropped any pretense of wanting to enforce existing laws and explicitly call for “No Borders” or “Open Borders.”
The Democrats have, in other words, deliberately and systematically created what they characterize as a “more welcoming” America for illegal immigrants, but what is objectively a more lawless America in which illegal immigrants find more opportunity to thrive — whether they seek to assimilate and enjoy the better economic opportunities here, or whether they have (as some relatively few, but nontrivial number do) more nefarious motivations, including drugs, human trafficking, violent gangs, etc.
There are certainly Republicans who’ve been historically complicit in that. Any Republican who doesn’t support mandatory e-Verify, for example, is complicit in the deliberate non-enforcement of existing law. But it’s nevertheless clear, in the biggest of current pictures, that the Democrats welcome the notion of 5000+ illegals flowing seamlessly and en masse across the border and into legal obscurity on this side of it.
So if you’re discussing what’s motivating those people — even the very best of them, the ones with the very best claims for amnesty or sanctuary, the ones most willing and capable of contributing economically, paying taxes, and obeying other laws — to march north, you have to consider not just what’s pushing them from where they are now, but also what’s pulling them toward where they want to go.
Do card-carrying members of the DNC have to go shanty-to-shanty in Tegucigalpa handing out contact info for coyotes or instructions for the parade? No, that’s not necessary. Hollywood has been showing the entire world the glories of America for many decades now. Put that together with even rumors that “this caravan is so big that it can’t be stopped, and almost everyone is going to get through, we heard it on CNN International” — and that’s all you need to create a stampede, pardner.
Beldar (fa637a) — 10/23/2018 @ 12:02 pmThese people really can’t help themselves.
Colonel Haiku (311cb7) — 10/23/2018 @ 12:06 pm@ Paul Montagu, who wrote (#182):
This is correct, but misses half the picture.
Trump’s busy pouring kerosine on these flames, it’s true. But so, too, are his mirror antagonists from the raving-mad wing of the Democratic Party, which, alas, includes almost the entire Democratic Party now.
Both sides seem to think turning this into a political issue will be “good for our team” between now and the final day of voting on the midterms. And it’s reasonably certain that both will be proved right, and both will be proved wrong, on a state-by-state, congressional district-by-district basis, to at least some degree.
The same was true of the Kavanaugh nomination.
The decision makers and opinion decreers from both sides want the knobs set at 11, and that’s the new perpetual normal. We’ve got to give the plants the electrolytes they crave, after all.
Beldar (fa637a) — 10/23/2018 @ 12:12 pmBoth sides use the same danged visuals, for pete’s sake! That red-faced photo of Bret Kavanaugh defending his honor? That photo of the bridge over the river on the border between Honduras and Mexico? Political Rorschach tests: I see butterflies, how can you possibly see skeletons?!?
Beldar (fa637a) — 10/23/2018 @ 12:14 pmI’m pretty sure, though, that regardless of what happens between now and the last day of voting (which we used to call Election Day), come, say, December 1st, (1) that bridge is going to be mostly empty, and (2) Brett Kavanaugh will still be hard at work at the SCOTUS. Ditto for December 1st, 2019, and ditto for December 1st, 2029 & 2039.
Beldar (fa637a) — 10/23/2018 @ 12:17 pmThe object tie e reality is someone is organizing these caravans, and they are trying to gather as many people as possible.
narciso (d1f714) — 10/23/2018 @ 12:24 pmhit a dry whole:
https://mobile.twitter.com/Nervana_1/status/1054804806701903873
narciso (d1f714) — 10/23/2018 @ 12:25 pmThe New York Times seems to link Trump’s Middle Easterners comment to that ISIS claim by the president fo Guatemala but not via Judicial Watch but a Fox & Friends segment that appeared shortly before Trump’s tweet.
Pete Hegseth, it says, cited the claim by Jimmy Morales that his governmebt had arrested “over 100 ISIS fighters” Hegsteth then floated the claim that terrorists could have infiltrated the caravan. Another co-host asked if he was sure that was true[it’s not entirely clear to me what the New York Times means by “that” – terrorists in the caravan or the 100 arrests?] Hegseth said “it hasn’t been verified.”
Of course Morales said they had been deported (I suppose you could say that means there could have bene more) and they could have deported alot of people whom they counted as ISIS terrorists who were nothing of teh sort but merely from an Arab or Moslem country.
The idea of terrrorists sending many unsupervised individuals is a fantasy. It violates operational security. If one turns or is caught the whole operation is exposed. Unless they are sending so many that it doesn’t matter. But they have to worry about security and trustworthiness.
Sammy Finkelman (102c75) — 10/23/2018 @ 1:37 pmThe New York Times had nothing about who was responsible for the caravan, and the Wall street Journal seems to have nothing in its news pages but the editorial page points to a former Honduran Congressman – Bartolo Fuenes of the Libre Party – who has admitted it (or taken the blame as a cover story) but says he is surprised at its size. The WSJ editorial said 4,000 or so were on it but last night CBS reported it had reached 7,200.
The Libre Party is the party of Manuel Zalaya, who was removed from power in 2009 (somewhat unofficially as the Honduran constitution did not contain an impeachment clause). Zelaya is an ally of Venezuela and Cuba (and we should add Nicaragua now, although Ortega has his own problems)
What that means is that this was not an effort to liberalize American immigration laws, or defeat enforcement, but to toughen it, with the goal of imposing an anti-American dictatorship in Honduras, maybe with the help of the United States. Most of the people in the caravan are just pawns, and don’t realize it.
Zelaya accused Honduran president Juan Orlando Hernandez, (who has encouraged Hondurans to go back and offered assistance) of a “submissive and lackey attitude” toward the “arrogant position of the empire” and claimed his economic policies have failed. The opposition is now calling for street demonstration to force Hernandez out, and egging on the migration. The WSJ says also they threaten to continue the migration wave if Hernandez does not step down.
Rush Limbaugh said late in his show (he had previously blamed Democrats I think) that Vice President Mike Pence was in Honduras and said the Honduran president blamed Venezuela. Rush said he was about to say Venezuela has no money but then said the government does.
Actually the government does not have much money to spare either (although thsi probably doesn’t cost that much) but Cuba does, and I think the money might even be coming from Moscow,
Sammy Finkelman (102c75) — 10/23/2018 @ 1:55 pmThey really, really, really can’t help themselves!
https://twitter.com/BruceBartlett/status/1054788112193331200
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 10/23/2018 @ 2:00 pm194. Beldar (fa637a) — 10/23/2018 @ 12:02 pm
That’s true, but they strictly limit that to non-enforcement.
The people in the business don’t even pretend to want to enforce the law eitehr – they probably just want opportunities for payoffs and blackmail, and in the meantime any way an easy job.
No they don’t. They want to abolish ICE but they don’t call for open borders. That’s what they are accused of by what can be called the far right – but that would mean they (the Democrats) had some principles.
Democrats are only interested in people already here. They don’t care about people who have been deported either. They do oppose any new restrictions on legal immigration, but they are not so interested in more legal immigration.
What counts is what is importantt o registered voters – and that’s no more (or severely reduced) deportations and continued family migration.
That’s what many people on the other side also want, because they actually want to put more people in the illegal category. (opposition to borthright citizenship, you know.)
Sammy Finkelman (102c75) — 10/23/2018 @ 2:11 pmKevin de Leon (D-CA) for Senate
States shouldn’t enforce immigration laws
Kevin has led the fight against local law enforcement being commandeered to enforce federal immigration laws. He passed the California Values Act, prohibiting law enforcement agencies from investigating or arresting people for immigration enforcement purposes. He negotiated $30 million to assist the nearly 250,000 Dreamers in California with legal services and “safety net” funding if they become unable to work to support their education.
Source: 2018 California Senatorial website KevinDeLeon.com , Oct 15, 2017
Voted YES on driver’s license for undocumented immigrants
Excerpts from Legislative Counsel’s Digest:
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 10/23/2018 @ 2:20 pmExisting law requires the Department of Motor Vehicles (DMV) to require an applicant for an original driver’s license or identification card to submit satisfactory proof that the applicant’s presence in the United States is authorized under federal law.
This bill would require the department to issue an original driver’s license to a person who is unable to submit satisfactory proof that the applicant’s presence in the US is authorized under federal law if he or she meets all other qualifications for licensure and provides satisfactory proof to the department of his or her identity and California residency.
Status:Concurrence vote passed House, 55-21-2; passed Senate 28-8-3; approved by Gov.Brown 10/3/2013
OnTheIssues Explanation: Undocumented immigrants have no federal authorization; this bill allows them to get a state driver’s license regardless of their lack of federal authorization.
The gravy train continues to loot its way north.
mg (a05430) — 10/23/2018 @ 2:22 pmThis will go as far as the enemies of the United States wnat it to go – but they don’t want it to go too far because free migration is their enemy too. They are not helped by things like the end of the Iron Curtain and the Berlin Wall.
Fidel Castro sponsored the Mariel boatlift but his goal was not to let more Cubans be free but to get the United States to restrict immigration from Cuba, which he got, and the United States actually even began paying him to prevent people from escaping.
We had for some 36 years a wet foot/dry foot policy – if any Cuban actually managed to land in the United States – or got to the Mexican border – he or she was in – instant amnesty – but Obama abolished that as part of his better relations policy with Cuba. (in the esarly 1960s there was no immigration quota whatsoever from Cuba or any independent state in the western hemisphere so Cubans could just hop on a plane to the United States till about 1961. What we are seeing now, what we ae seen since about 1974, is the result of the 1965 immigration law.)
In his effort to get the United States to toughen enforcement, Fidel Castro in 1980 was sending whoever did not qualify for admission to the United States, which in those days incluced homosexuals. It was maybe not a favor to them – most of them later died of AIDS. Now Fidel Castro was not interested in sending criminals – he was interetsed in sending excludables. in an attempt to get the United States to enforce its laws. Some of his criminals were actually political prisoners, although he may not have realized it.
Whenever a child of an important official had a sexual relationship with someone inapprpriate for the government, or maybe someone the father didn’t want – if it was a boy he was accused and convicted of rape and jailed and if it waa a girl she was accused and convicted of prositution and jailed. There were also crimes like stealing from a collective farm.
There were real criminals, but the INS ignored them. As usual they acted robotically. They asked opeople if they had been convicted. Mostly good people told the truth. The worst crimials did not. Other people on the boatlift sometiems identified criminals (they could know because of tattoos or because they came from the same prison or the releaed prisoners talked or tehy were so bad it showed on the boat) but anything anybody else said was ignnored.
Sammy Finkelman (102c75) — 10/23/2018 @ 2:23 pmTrump has tried to reduced the qualifications for asylum (fearing fro your life if it’s a gang or domestic partner is not supposed to qualify) ordered arrest of people who cross the border before asking from asylum and set up a limit of 150 day at the border to ask.
Of course Congress will not give him the power, or the money, to imprison more people. Certainly not till they get a law that they would like enforcing. But the whole idea of enforcing the law is an error.
Sammy Finkelman (102c75) — 10/23/2018 @ 2:26 pmVoted YES on driver’s license for undocumented immigrants
So what did Trump do? Claimed in his stump speech that (next?) the Democrats would want to give them cars and even Rolls Royces.
Trump also lied when he said we welcome immigration citing as proof that we have low unemoloyment.
That was not the law he proposed.
Trump absolutely does not care about the truth on the stump.
Sammy Finkelman (102c75) — 10/23/2018 @ 2:29 pmThe truth is the federal government has no power to expel any alien a state wants to let stay.
Read Article I, Section 8 — immigration is never mentioned, but only naturalization (the Know nothing Party of the 1850s never proposed afederal immigration law) and consider the 10th amendment and the clause that implies a state has the power to admit people which is not limited to slaves.
Any federal restrictions are derivative of other powers – the power to regulate foreign commerce and national defense.
Sammy Finkelman (102c75) — 10/23/2018 @ 2:37 pmI don’t watch CNN but when I did they always had a clock in the corner. Do they have one on the north bound gravy train?
mg (a05430) — 10/23/2018 @ 2:43 pm209… that’s just a pinch of what the Democrats are up to, Sammy.
Non-enforcement is not their objective.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 10/23/2018 @ 2:54 pmwhy are we talking about this?
no, really. it’s an 1130 mile walk from frontera la mesilla (the closest mexico/guatemala border crossing to the US) to brownsville. at 30 miles a day, which is about the fastest humans can do a sustained march, this caravan is 37 days away from the US. At a more reasonable (for the non-soldiers marching) 10 miles a day, it’s 113 days away from the US.
What are the odds that it even holds together that long?
This story is being drummed up to distract from US domestic politics during the election.
aphrael (e0cdc9) — 10/23/2018 @ 4:14 pmI’m curious how this is playing in Mexican domestic politics. The EPN->AMLO handover is already complicated enough.
aphrael (e0cdc9) — 10/23/2018 @ 4:20 pmThis story is being drummed up to distract from US domestic politics during the election.
By the media. Everything that happens in the world, they look to see if it’s a rock they can throw at Trump.
nk (dbc370) — 10/23/2018 @ 4:43 pm213… why is the MSM hard-humping this, aphrael?
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 10/23/2018 @ 4:44 pmHaiku, at 213: presumably because Trump is and they can’t resist reacting to Trump?
I mean, it’s hard for me to say. I don’t watch television news.
aphrael (e0cdc9) — 10/23/2018 @ 4:44 pm215… yes… rock, brick or hammer.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 10/23/2018 @ 4:45 pm217… yep, that is definitely a part of it.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 10/23/2018 @ 4:45 pmDoes this kill the post-Kavanaugh Vote DeLeon to Punish Feinstein movement?
urbanleftbehind (847a06) — 10/23/2018 @ 4:47 pmMe being a Classic Reactionary, it has the effect of making me want to defend Trump, and I hate that.
nk (dbc370) — 10/23/2018 @ 4:48 pmI don’tknow if this is being drummed up by the usual suspects (which may or may not be the Dems, and which may or may not be this administration), but I think the concern is one of the bigger picture. What, exactly, will the president do, what is his plan with regard to the military, how will it be implemented, will it involve Congressional approval, etc., etc. Because the fact of the matter is, the border clusterf*ck is not going away any time soon, and perhaps this caravan is going to push all the can kicking down the road to a head where something concrete will actually occur with regard to immigration reforms.
Interesting to consider, too, that the timing of this is not only convenient, given the midterms. But one has to ask themselves, to which side is it a convenience?? And if you think about it, it can easily be a win-win for either side depending on controls the narrative. For R’s: a tangible, in your face reason for a wall to be completed, for immigration laws to be adhered to, for border control to be even more of a priority. For the D’s, it plays on the sympathies of Americans (huddled masses yearning to be free), it brings in more individuals who will be depending on gov’t. agencies for help, therefore a sense of being beholden may take root with a political side of the aisle that will promise to make border crossing more accessible and readily available to relatives and family members still not yet across. And so it goes.
Dana (023079) — 10/23/2018 @ 4:50 pm214, then the rubber hits the road December 1, if AMLO takes the mask off or is sufficiently frightened into turning back a Cuban-Venezuelan production. I would hope that the PAN remnants and partisans from the more familiar states with more to lose from USMCA cancellation and legal migration to the U.S. (and even add a cartel to that) could be cajoled into the hard work of resisting the wave.
urbanleftbehind (847a06) — 10/23/2018 @ 4:59 pm#BinaryChoice #EvenDustinGetsIt #SeeTehLightVoteRight
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 10/23/2018 @ 5:02 pmNo sammeh he the reason for the Marie boatlift was there hadn’t been a major large exodus since 1969, and before that camarioca, carter had been over backwards to negotiate with Fidel and he kicked him in the face, it was a poison pill that alimg with the mcduffie riots and the big spillover of the cartels growth created a perfect storm.
narciso (d1f714) — 10/23/2018 @ 5:31 pmApparently my transit was part of camarioca:
https://www.eda.admin.ch/eda/en/home/news/dossiers/alle-dossiers/schweizer-schutzmachtmandate-usa-kuba/camarioca-krise.html
narciso (d1f714) — 10/23/2018 @ 5:46 pmMarco missed out on that period in Miami (having been in Vegas from 79 to 82). Explains a lot of the softness and his out on limb “Black Lives Matter” affirmation.
urbanleftbehind (847a06) — 10/23/2018 @ 5:54 pmI had no idea it was that bad, must have like living in raccoon city, but tony spilotro was making things interesting over there.
narciso (d1f714) — 10/23/2018 @ 6:06 pm