Patterico's Pontifications

10/19/2018

Saudis Issue Laughable Story: Khashoggi Died in a Fistfight

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 5:51 pm

Honestly, if you’re still spouting Saudi propaganda at this point, you’re beyond hope.

Saudi Arabia said Saturday that Jamal Khashoggi, the dissident Saudi journalist who disappeared more than two weeks ago, had died after an argument and fistfight with unidentified men inside the Saudi Consulate in Istanbul.

Eighteen men have been arrested and are being investigated in the case, Saudi state-run media reported without identifying any of them.

State media also reported that Maj. Gen. Ahmed al-Assiri, the deputy director of Saudi intelligence, and other high-ranking intelligence officials had been dismissed. They did not say whether the men’s firing had any connection to the Khashoggi case or whether they were being investigated for playing a role in it.

Gee, I thought the story was that the Saudis had no idea about this guy never leaving the embassy. Remember what MBS told Bloomberg?

Bloomberg: He went into the Saudi consulate.

MBS: My understanding is he entered and he got out after a few minutes or one hour. I’m not sure. We are investigating this through the foreign ministry to see exactly what happened at that time.

Oops! Guess not.

This new “fistfight” story is a Trumpist sort of story, in the sense that the Saudis clearly don’t care whether people believe it. It is a lie of the sort Trump tells on a regular basis, where he doesn’t even bother to try to make it plausible or reconcile it with his past statements. He just says whatever the hell he feels like saying, and expects his dupes to twist themselves into knots to claim he’s right.

And they do, every time. And the same dupes will claim this story makes sense.

The rest of the world — those of us with at least two brain cells to rub together — not only have no trouble seeing through this, we also have no trouble laughing out loud at how utterly implausible it is.

As Columbo would say, scratching his head and turning around just as it seemed like he was going to leave:

Um, guys?

Where’s the body?

The Saudi statement did not address many of the questions raised by the Turkish investigation, such as the identities of the 15 suspects in Mr. Khashoggi’s killing and whether they were among the 18 people the Saudis said they had arrested.

All 15 were identified by name and Turkish newspapers published their photographs. The New York Times established that most of them were employed by the Saudi military or security services and that at least four had traveled with the crown prince as part of his security detail.

Nor did the Saudi announcement say what had become of Mr. Khasoggi’s body. The Turks had said it had been disassembled with a bone saw by an autopsy specialist flown in specifically for the purpose and likely carried out of the consulate in large suitcases.

Where’s the body, MBS?

Where’s the body?

[Cross-posted at The Jury Talks Back.]

240 Responses to “Saudis Issue Laughable Story: Khashoggi Died in a Fistfight”

  1. Absurd.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  2. i still don’t get why i’m supposed to care about our luckless friend shoggi

    i could see maybe a day or two of “ohnoes what happened to shoggi” or somesuch

    but not even roseanne got this much coverage when she got offed

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  3. Ruck Foseanne

    urbanleftbehind (6098cf)

  4. 2. Lefties are desperate for something about Trump — anything — to make hay out of. Even if it means saying “Ohe noez! Looks wut happund on Trump’s watch!”

    Gryph (08c844)

  5. i still don’t get why i’m supposed to care about our luckless friend shoggi

    i could see maybe a day or two of “ohnoes what happened to shoggi” or somesuch

    I would not expect you to understand.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  6. 5. As much as I’m loathe to admit it, I’m kind of in the same boat as Feet here. I’m fairly certain that what happened to Khashoggi represents standard operating procedure for the Saudi Arabian government. They just had the bad misfortune to get caug this time.

    Gryph (08c844)

  7. A story that didn’t need to have Trump brought into it.

    Dejectedhead (f643fb)

  8. They just had the bad misfortune to get caught this time.

    no i agree with Mr. 57 that if the saudi-pickles wanted to gank shoggi they’d have done it much more surreptitiously than this

    but what i know for sure is the people who are hell-bent on finding out what happened to the shogster in the depths of filthy foreign turkey (dirty nato scum-country) are remarkably incurious about what the filthy corrupt fbi’s been up to on our own soil

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  9. Well we shall see, I assume they buried the body somewhere so an autopsy will will out but if some of the more extraordinary claims don’t bear out, I’m sure you’ll correct.

    Narciso (d1f714)

  10. This is a confession by the Saudis. Next step, Turkey should declare each and every Saudi employed in that consulate personae non grata, expel them, and seize the consulate. (We did that with Russian diplomatic compounds not very long ago because they were being used as safe houses for spying.)

    Then, the U.S. looks at Magnitsky Act sanctions. But Turkey should take the lead.

    nk (dbc370)

  11. “We were just cleaning our bone saw and Mr. Khashoggi fell into it.”

    nk (dbc370)

  12. you’d think people would be more grateful the saudis didn’t kill somebody we actually knew

    but no

    such graciousness eludes too too many of us in these dark angry times

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  13. “Honestly, if you’re still spouting Saudi propaganda at this point, you’re beyond hope.”

    Very well, I shall limit myself to Turkish propaganda (someone owes an apology to Michael Flynn, Sr. for his early work in the area,) Bezos Post propaganda, Saudi propaganda from princes currently out of favor with the Saudi regime, Muslim Brotherhood propaganda, and other guild propaganda from journalists in general who know their reputation is in the toilet and are desperately looking for a easy hero to get people to respect them again.

    “This new “fistfight” story is a Trumpist sort of story, in the sense that the Saudis clearly don’t care whether people believe it.”

    How rude. The term you’re looking for is ‘DOJ/FBI sort of story’, given how many of those excuses we’ve had.

    “It is a lie of the sort Trump tells on a regular basis, where he doesn’t even bother to try to make it plausible or reconcile it with his past statements.”

    Which the DOJ/FBI has also been doing with regard to document dumps, document redactions, leak responsibility, investigation priorities, political motivations, reasons for a highly connected dude with no prior criminal record who may or may not have had the government among his connections to kill a bunch of innocent civilians in Vegas, etc.

    In other words…You Are Fake Outrage, jumping on an easy target with no though for the consequences, much like when neocons joined liberals in jumping on Qaddafi, or when video game developers jumped on walking simulators as the Next Big Artform in 2015-2016.

    “He just says whatever the hell he feels like saying, and expects his dupes to twist themselves into knots to claim he’s right.”

    You have an entire sinecured liberal media full of dedicated liberal journalists, liberal foundations, and liberal government workers to do your favored public knot-twisting for you. And even then you have so little confidence in their work that you call people who disagree with you “Saudi Propaganda!” in advance with the same shameless “RUSSIAN_BOT” gormlessness that only the lowest-IQ NPCs still believe!

    For that appalling general insult, good sir, I and all people who inherit the REAL American tradition choose to pretend to believe the Saudis in the interest of the Western tradition of fair play, cheap oil, and the necessity for all accused to have a proper public defense and fair trial.

    That, and the fact that the regional stability of Saudi Arabia and risk of a Middle East power struggle killing enough people to make Saudi Arabia’s body count like Jordan’s is far more than enough for me to take their excuses without complaint and without shame.

    Pencil-Necked Pundit (8087ae)

  14. Well seeing as the foreign minister denied there was such a recording. How does one substantiate such a charge?

    Narciso (d1f714)

  15. In other words…You Are Fake Outrage, jumping on an easy target with no though for the consequences, much like when neocons joined liberals in jumping on Qaddafi, or when video game developers jumped on walking simulators as the Next Big Artform in 2015-2016.

    Goodbye. I don’t like you anyway, I suspect you’re a sock puppet, and nobody calls me “fake” and gets away with it. You’re done.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  16. Good point about producing the body. Death by fist fight for a 59-year old is just not believable.

    Paul Montagu (8d2328)

  17. Well every one of the Grishenko blood hounds went Lawrence of Arabia in a fraction of a second.

    Narciso (d1f714)

  18. The Saudis confessed!
    The Saudis confessed!
    The Saudis confessed!
    The Saudis confessed!
    The Saudis confessed!
    The Saudis confessed!
    The Saudis confessed!

    It’s not Turkish propaganda anymore.

    nk (dbc370)

  19. Well I admitted he was mostly dead then again they never found Jimmy Hoffa body did they, he met with among other the boss of the town I grew up in.

    Narciso (d1f714)

  20. Unless the Turks beat the confession out of King Salman in a Turkish prison. But we should wait for Trump to tweet that.

    nk (dbc370)

  21. oh gosh that’s so close to me

    i love that cemetery so much

    did you know that land was sold to the city by this guy named hiram roe

    and hiram said i’m a sell you my land for the cemetery but you have to name it after me so they decided to call it roe’s hill cemetery

    bit some ditz wrote it down wrong and that’s how it got named rosehill cemetery

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  22. So, all the usual suspects and MSM talking heads KNOW EXACTLY what happened in Saudi Embassy.

    Really? So tell us how you know. ‘Cause all i see is the usual unnamed sources and speculation stated as fact.

    Frankly, I’m not sure why we’re supposed to damage our relationship with one of our most important allies over one dead journalist. But this is really about making Trump look bad.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  23. Congrats, Pat, I guess.conc

    I believe if you review my comments on an earlier thread, I
    said there are no good guys involved in any of this. So you can hardly say I have a dog in this fight.

    Except one. Our own. At least I hope you’ll say it’s our dog. The national security of the United States. I would hate if we concede to Iran over this what they could never accomplish on their own.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  24. oopers *but* some ditz i mean

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  25. Ahh, all my comments go immediately into moderation.

    Shocking. Simply shocking.

    [Yes. I explained this, and you’re ignoring me again. I am the host of the site, so it makes sense for you to pay *very careful attention* to what I say, especially when I am addressing you directly and I am annoyed with you. If you did that, you would already know why your comments are going directly into moderation and you would know what you have to do to get out of it.]

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  26. The capacity of the Nevertrumpers and the Left to gin up OUTRAGE over nothing is remarkable.

    Remember when Michelle Fields was brutally thrown to the ground by Trump’s Campaign manager? Oh, the OUTRAGE. IT MUST NOT STAND. PEOPLE MUST BE PUNISHED. HOW DARE ANYONE QUESTION MS. FIELDS VERACITY.

    And then it turned out to be a nothing burger and they were off to the next OUTRAGE.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  27. @6. Yes. They are harsh. The Saudis decreed he was full of camel dung; now he is fertilizer. They are very difficult to deal with from a Western perspective; saw it through my late father’s job w/an oil firm. Demands patience, tolerance and diplomacy in both commerce and government relations. Often quite frustrating and exasperating. This time, though, they were sloppy; too overt. But in the long run, they’ll likely get away with it.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  28. Stormy Daniels, Micheal Cohen, Firing Comey, Michelle Fields, his Tax returns, the mueller investigation, Meeting with Putin, Charlottsville, The grab ’em by their whatever tape, the Rosie insult, the Megan Kelly insult, Children at the border, the inaugural crowd size, etc. etc.

    The outrage never stops. Once Trump gets past one, we’re on to the next. How long before this is forgotten?

    rcocean (1a839e)

  29. And that’s how we ended up with Paul manafort, previously she had slandered Allen West, the kind of thing John schindler another fellow with impulse control issues continued to insinuate.

    Narciso (d1f714)

  30. BTW, please tell me why the internal workings of Saudi Arabia are any of our business? And if we’re all against “Dictatorship” or “Governments that kill their own people” show me the outrage against Cuba or China.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  31. BTW, please tell me why the internal workings of Saudi Arabia are any of our business? And if we’re all against “Dictatorship” or “Governments that kill their own people” show me the outrage against Cuba or China.

    Our lawful permanent resident was murdered. If the other screamingly obvious reasons aren’t good enough, that one should be.

    [UPDATE: Despite multiple media reports saying this, I think he actually was a visa holder.]

    Patterico (115b1f)

  32. given what we already knew about stinky mueller

    https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/mueller-team-asking-if-kushner-foreign-business-ties-influenced-trump-n852681

    Special counsel Robert Mueller’s team has asked witnesses about Kushner’s efforts to secure financing for his family’s real estate properties, focusing specifically on his discussions during the transition with individuals from Qatar and Turkey, as well as Russia, China and the United Arab Emirates, according to witnesses who have been interviewed as part of the investigation into possible collusion between Russia and the Trump campaign to sway the 2016 election.

    […]

    Separately, Qatari government officials visiting the U.S. in late January and early February considered turning over to Mueller what they believe is evidence of efforts by their country’s Persian Gulf neighbors in coordination with Kushner to hurt their country, four people familiar with the matter said.

    and given the incontinent joaquin castro’s witless burblings today

    https://thehill.com/policy/international/412249-joaquin-castro-accuses-jared-kushner-of-orchestrating-killing-of

    Castro cited unspecified reporting “that Jared Kushner may have, with U.S. intelligence, delivered a hit list, an enemies list, to the crown prince, to MBS, in Saudi Arabia and that the prince may have acted on that.”

    the smart money says this whole histrionic shoggi operetta’s some kind of twisted battlespace prep being done by the treasonous men and women of the slick and slimy fbi

    you’re never gonna get me to believe anyone actually cares about our hapless friend shoggi

    that’s preposterous on its face

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  33. i could see maybe a day or two of “ohnoes what happened to shoggi” or somesuch
    but not even roseanne got this much coverage when she got offed

    There’re multiple reasons we should care about the assassination of Khashoggi, not counting the one that Roseanne is still alive and breathing:
    1. He was a respected journalist who was killed for criticizing a government, an act that offends our fundamental beliefs in freedom of the press, freedom of opinion, and hatred of the kind of tyranny that seeks to control not only what people do but what they can say, think and believe.
    2. By the same token his death is an attack on the press and journalists everywhere. Obviously journalists reporting on the story feel the threat to their profession keenly, and in addition a number of them from the DDID newsroom had a personal relationship with the man.
    3. Kashoggi was a pacifist humanitarian, not a rabblerouser who deliberately sought to bring official action against himself, and not any kind of militant. He was a spokesman for a more open society in the Mideast and around the world. His last and final op-ed speaks to that.
    4. He was killed in a diplomatic consulate, violating the diplomatic relations with the host nation (Turkey) as well as violating the sacred trust that protects diplomats and citizens who seek aid in consulates around the world.
    5. He was not killed in a kinetic warzone like Gaza or Syria or Afghanistan, where bullets are already flying and everyone who lives or visits there incurs a risk to life and limb, but in a deliberately planned assassination that took place in a peaceful, bureaucratic setting. We can all imagine going to a government office to fill out some routine paperwork only to disappear forever, and the thought fires the imagination with horror and outrage.
    6. Kashoggi was no outsider in Saudi politics, but rather was deeply connected with journalists, officials and members of the royal family. This might contribute to an impression of an “in-house” matter and not anyone else’s business but it should shock the conscience even more because this was a man working to reform his government, not topple it.
    7. The killing traces back directly to a head of state. Even with Putin’s outrageous killings of journalists and defectors, there is usually enough operational deniability to shield him from direct responsibility. Not the case here: the individuals involved in the killing are traceable through entry visas directly to the crown prince’s retinue, almost as if they simply didn’t care or are daring the world to take action against them. It’s a fairly astonishing amount of hubris even in a moment in history drenched in hubris.
    8. The killing traces back directly to an allied government. Unlike with Putin’s Russia, Saudi Arabia is a key US ally, and for an ally to openly and brutally murder a US resident is nothing short of outrageous.
    9. Finally, the last moments of his life were apparently recorded in gruesome, haunting detail. Unlike the thousands who have died buried and alone under airstrike rubble, the world will (probably) eventually be able to listen to the horror and brutality of his death. As with the Jordanian pilots burned alive by ISIS, the videotape recordings of their deaths have the effect of bringing the horror and outrage of an act of violence home to us, even though they took place thousands of miles away.

    Paul Montagu (8d2328)

  34. you seriously just made a buzzfeed listicle about why people should care about shoggi?

    we’re all living in a shirley jackson novel anymore (bad mom)

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  35. no wait … on the bad mom part

    who am i thinking of?

    maybe marion zimmer bradley?

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  36. He wasn’t an American, he was still a Saudi Citizen who had a beef against the current Saudi Government. Sorry, he got “killed in a fist fight” but the Saudi’s never pretended to be a Western Democracy.

    And while the excuse sounds implausible, it happens. How many Americans are killed by the Police while “Resisting arrest”?

    The Saudi’s will find some low-level scapegoat, convict him of manslaughter and that will be the end of it.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  37. Buzzfeed listicle? Your comments range from f**king to completely ridiculous.

    Paul Montagu (8d2328)

  38. it’s a lovely listicle Mr. Montagu

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  39. True a real buzzfeed piece would be like that d trash ristom, printed going after American contractors going after aqap

    Narciso (d1f714)

  40. I’m rating the Saudi story as:
    Mostly True.

    1. There likely was an argument
    2. There likely was some sort of punching, pushing, grabbing- fighting if you will.
    3. At some point Khashoggi began to lose the fight. (cynics might even say from the first 2 seconds, but who is counting)
    4. Now Khashoggi is dead.

    As far as where is the body?ha. I dunno. Where do desert nomad Islamist Royals disperse body parts? Wherever they want of course. If you were Saudi, that sort of impudent question towards the rulers Allah chose over you gets you the Khashoggi treatment at the consulate of your choice.

    steveg (a9dcab)

  41. 39, if steveg is correct, it likely went down like the beatdown and feeding to scavenging animals on the greedy Joey Fatone wanna-be in Wind River.

    urbanleftbehind (6098cf)

  42. Just Google ‘the legal system of Saudi Arabia’ and peruse the wiki entry. The penalties and punishments for what Westerners would consider ‘petty’ transgressions and alternative lifestyles are pretty harsh. A “good day” in that ‘Happy Kingdom’ is making it from a sunrise through a sunset.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  43. Our lawful permanent resident Saudi citizen probably broke Saudi laws over time and then walked onto sovereign Saudi territory and got the punishment.

    I can get legal residency in some place without extradition and commit all the BS crimes I want against US criminal code that don’t violate my hosts laws. But I sure as hell am not going into the US Embassy or Consulate there. I’m dumb, but not that dumb. Now if I’m a Saudi citizen and I do what Khashoggi did? Beyond dumb. When you are that stupid the Saudis are right… Allah is not with you
    God favors the brave, not the stupid

    steveg (a9dcab)

  44. it’s a lovely listicle Mr. Montagu

    Thank you. I’ll accept your comment to the extent of its sincerity.

    Paul Montagu (8d2328)

  45. Toward Israel he wasn’t terribly enlightened, despite having been educated in American universities in the 80s, the greater evil supporters of terrorists all around the world win this one, have a donut.

    Narciso (d1f714)

  46. Khashoggi is deserving of a little sympathy… same as every Darwin award winner

    steveg (a9dcab)

  47. As a permanent resident within our borders Khashoggi was under our protection… but he literally went off the reservation to Islambalandia Goes Wild: Turkish Bath Style and goes into the freaking Saudi Consulate. Sorry bro. We have enough trouble keeping US Citizens out of trouble in that neck of the woods

    steveg (a9dcab)

  48. My take: The Saudis should own up to it, and then say “this is our system. Don’t frack with the King.”

    In their system, subjects are absolute chattel of the monarch (never mind the facade they put up) and the moment this troublemaker stepped onto Saudi soil he was subject to Saudi law (i.e. whatever the King says).

    Now, they may want to pretend that this is NOT their system, as it doesn’t fit well in the civilized world, and that’s a problem. But WE should not believe the pretense.

    Kevin M (d6cbf1)

  49. 48. This. As much as I do believe Khashoggi’s death was a muder, I’m under no illusion that this is going to represent some kind of sea change in American policy. The west has been far too invested for far too long in maintaining the illusion of the divine right of the House of Saud.

    Gryph (08c844)

  50. “And they do, every time. And the same dupes will claim this story makes sense.”

    It seems dupes have been running American administrations for umpteen decades now. Or, are we trying to dupe others into thinking such Saudi nonsense just now started being given a pass?

    Munroe (1c1251)

  51. I agree with Feet’s. Folks all up curious and engaged in figuring how how some OBL lover hav no curiosity about corrupt FBI and Justice here in USA.

    Shoggi might have been a permanent but still Saudi and still pushing for the terror group MB into Saudi politics.

    More concerned about who killed Biggie.

    Bob (9af831)

  52. People are fake pretending this matters?

    Wow.

    Bob (9af831)

  53. Assume the worst. DJT and everyone else is lying.

    Is this the righteous hill to take at severe cost? Why?

    It isn’t for me.

    If this is the catalyst for the final showdown with the cash cows of radical Islam and there are other strategic goals, eg actual reformation of Islam, occupation of Arab oil fields, I am all ears. If it’s just about an affront to the civilized world? I’ll take a hard pass.

    We cannot confront every evil. Name them as discovered by all means. But, let them be unless they are utterly unavoidable.

    Ed from SFV (6d42fa)

  54. Don’t care. So many more important things to have concerns about.

    Colonel Haiku (42c195)

  55. “Where do desert nomad Islamist Royals disperse body parts?“

    Chipper/shredders are probably big sellers over there.

    Colonel Haiku (42c195)

  56. DOES SAUDI ARABIA HAVE

    mg (9e54f8)

  57. Gdmn fingers, I was attempting to type Does Saudi Arabia have planned parenthood?

    mg (9e54f8)

  58. Our lawful permanent resident was murdered. If the other screamingly obvious reasons aren’t good enough, that one should be.

    That IS a good point. The Aquino Principle. I quibble with the word “murder” as extrajudicial killings are part of absolute monarchy, but the killing was incredibly disrespectful to America, and predictably so. As if they didn’t care, or thought that no one would notice.

    The really terrible part of it is the damage it does to the US/Israeli/Saudi alliance and the help it gives Erdogan and the Iranians. In the end, the Saudis will arrest a senior security official, unrelated to the royal family. He’ll confess and be executed, and we’ll pretend to believe it.

    Because we have to.

    Kevin M (d6cbf1)

  59. shoggi you didn’t have to squeeze it but you did but you did but you did

    AND I THANK YOU

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  60. Corker: US must determine responsibility in Saudi journalist’s death

    no actually that’s not a thing we have to do at all

    it’s a pretty day Bob don’t you have some jews you wanna harass

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  61. That the US owes something to a “lawful permanent resident” struck me as a novel proposition. I could not find the Aquino principle mentioned by Kevin M.

    Giving this kind of status and privilege to non-citizens is exactly what most of us on the right hate. Is there a huge difference between letting a lawful permanent resident vote and the idea that the US owes some duty to lawful permanent residents?

    https://twitter.com/MatlockFletcher/status/1053415609445376007

    Fred Z (05d938)

  62. a permanent resident of the dirty effing swamp maybe, but he wasn’t in any way shape or form an american lol

    what kind of loser goes to turkey for a marriage license to marry some dirty trollop 25 years younger than him

    the whole thing reeks of sex trafficking and turkish sexploitation

    the shoggi dude seems like he was into some pretty shady stuff that’s for sure

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  63. The right to vote belongs to the states. The Constitution only forbids the states from denying it to certain classes of people. California could give the right to vote to illegal alien 5-year olds if it wanted to, as long as it did not discriminate on the basis of sex, race, former condition of servitude, or failure to pay a poll tax or any other tax.

    Similarly, the federal government, with its plenary power over immigration and foreign relations, can give all the protections it wants to permanent residents, including protection from being murdered when going abroad.

    nk (dbc370)

  64. I corrected my comment. Despite multiple reports saying he was a lawful resident, I think he was actually a visa holder.

    That the US owes something to a “lawful permanent resident” struck me as a novel proposition.

    One which I did not say. I said it’s one of many reasons we should care.

    At 32, Paul Montagu listed many of the other reasons.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  65. I am really annoyed at the way the Trumpkins are slicking themselves up and bending over for the Saudis (when they’re not working themselves up into a mouth-foaming frenzy), for no other reason than that they don’t want their orange-skinned pansy to have to make a difficult decision about applying the Magnitsky Act to a bunch of camel-bothering thugs who are giving his in-laws and cronies billions of dollars in construction contracts and arms deals rakeoffs.

    nk (dbc370)

  66. The Saudi government’s vacillations on this whole incident are nauseating.

    Has Turkey released any proof of the alleged video or audio recordings, or is there evidence that they have provided them to any allies?

    JP (75576b)

  67. 65. It’s not just the Trump humpers NK. Looking the other way while Saudi Arabia commits atrocities is American policy and has been for at least my lifetime.

    Gryph (08c844)

  68. Khashoggi wasn’t willing to go for the rough stuff, but supporting the ilkwan regime in Egypt suggests he wanted the same thing democratically, that’s what Steve was trying to say untactfully.

    I know the pedigree of the king, the fact he’s helming the reorganization doesn’t reassure me at all, from Bosnia to Chechnya to Gaza, he’s one of the bad guys.

    Narciso (d2a802)

  69. Turkey associating itself as one of the good guys in this story seems improbable:

    https://mobile.twitter.com/abdbozkurt/status/1053632043282845697

    Narciso (d2a802)

  70. But if you think Nick Kristol who I don’t think ever apologized for what he did to Stephen hatfill, with the complicity of Robert Mueller is in the right in this.

    Narciso (d2a802)

  71. Some are wondering why the MSM is making this a big story. So, I’ll explain it:

    1) He was a WaPo journalist.

    2) This is a roundabout way to attack Trump. Further details:

    a. D’s are afraid that Trump with his MAGA slogan and attitude is cornering the market on patriotism. And D losing votes (main thing)
    b. So D’s need a way to counteract that, without acting doing anything Patriotic themselves.
    c. D Solution: Make out like Trump is a tool of foreign dictators and “bad” countries because he is corrupt or immoral
    d. This leads to attacks that Trump is “Putin’s cock-holster” and now that Trump is “defense Attorney” for King of Saudi Arabia. Trump has also been attacked for being NK “Best friend”.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  72. Basic Never-trumper/MSM/Democrat strategy is ALWAYS attack Trump.

    If Trump stands up to Dictator or “bad country” then paint him as a dangerous warmonger who’s going to get us into a needless war.

    If Trump befriends a “bad Country” or tries to ease tensions, paint him as an appeaser who’s “selling out” for corrupt reasons or because he’s immoral.

    We saw this perfectly with NK. First, Trump was a fool who was going to “Blow up the world”. Then, he was an appeaser who was going to sell out morality and SK for a “deal”. Now, MSM is waiting for deal to blow up so they can criticize him for Being an incompetent.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  73. Dan Drezner – mouthpiece for Foreign Policy/DC establishment – was on NPR saying that sure other President’s were aware that we needed a strong relationship with Saudis BUT they were always quiet about it or were even embarrassed about Saudi-American alliance.

    Trump OTOH, is enthusiastic and open about need for Saudi friendship. And that IS WRONG.

    See Trump is always wrong. Per D’s.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  74. Honestly, if you’re still spouting Saudi propaganda at this point, you’re beyond hope.

    True to form, President Clouseau believes the Saudis!

    Of course, a few days ago, he was assuring us that he believed the Saudis’ blanket denials, and then it was “rogue killers”.

    “You have a li-cense for that bone saw?”

    Is there any tale the Saudis could concoct that he wouldn’t believe?

    Dave (9664fc)

  75. 61… a shout out to Sam n’ Dave lovers everywhere! Happy Saturday!

    Colonel Haiku (42c195)

  76. 24x7x365

    Colonel Haiku (42c195)

  77. If Trump stands up to Dictator or “bad country” then paint him as a dangerous warmonger who’s going to get us into a needless war.

    Maybe that has something to do with unhinged tweets threatening nuclear war and bragging about the size of his “button”?

    Dave (9664fc)

  78. And perhaps it’s because some take Trump literally and not figuratively.

    Colonel Haiku (42c195)

  79. and now shoggi-shog’s gone up to space where he won’t have to hassle with the human race

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  80. The repetitive nature of teh feigned outrage makes for some choice bumfodder.

    Colonel Haiku (42c195)

  81. “Our lawful permanent resident was murdered. If the other screamingly obvious reasons aren’t good enough, that one should be.” was in response to rcocean who wanted to know why the internal workings of Saudi Arabia were US business.

    Your response still seems to me to mean at least that the US ‘ought’ to respond though perhaps I went too far in saying that you thought the US ‘had a duty’ to do so.

    So, why ought the US do anything? It has the power to sanction under Magnitsky, but why ought it exercise that power? Why this incident when there are likely tens of thousands of similar things happening every year?

    And why immediately? What if the apparent murder happened, but was done by a lunatic or a Saudi or group of them off on a jaunt of his own? Or a false flag operation? What if the Saudis eventually punish those involved?

    All this twittery, agitated, hopping and jumping to conclusions with attached demands for action makes me nervous. Patience, softly softly catchee monkey.

    Fred Z (05d938)

  82. “Is there any tale the Saudis could concoct that he wouldn’t believe?”
    Dave (9664fc) — 10/20/2018 @ 7:43 am

    Too bad there isn’t a Bush around to poke holes in Saudi tall tales.

    Munroe (8859ef)

  83. Off-topic: Nikki Haley keynotes a charity dinner and brings down the house

    “I get it. You wanted an Indian woman, but Elizabeth Warren failed her DNA test.”

    She zinged pretty much everyone:

    “With all of our differences, there is still one thing that unites all 193 [UN member] countries. At one point, every single one of them was paying Paul Manafort.”

    Dave (9664fc)

  84. yes yes the best thing to do is just sweep this under the rug and move on to more important things

    there’s no upside in making a big hairy deal out of some rando like shoggi

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  85. Poor rug head lost his parts. No one remembers 9-11. When you have lost close friends because of the mooslum brotherhood one doesn’t give a crap about his death.

    mg (a05430)

  86. Blame Trump
    Y’all suck

    mg (a05430)

  87. The fact that the Al Smith dinner would have gone forth unremarked upon, except for Haley making a good quip, is in itself a victory.

    urbanleftbehind (57335c)

  88. Trumpkins……….

    …….a bunch of camel-bothering thugs……”

    In the same comment.

    harkin (adce92)

  89. Y’all suck

    I’d appreciate an apology for your personal attack.

    Dave (9664fc)

  90. But because it directed at a minimum of 2, a maximum in the low 1,000s and no one explicitly named, that’s a tough one.

    urbanleftbehind (57335c)

  91. Additional thoughts on why the msm is treating this like such a BFD:

    Why Is Khashoggi Being Made The Defining Issue Of U.S. Foreign Policy?

    The alleged killing of Jamal Khashoggi reveals far more about the nature of the American press and political establishment than it does foreign policy.

    “On Aug. 28, 2018, Khashoggi published an article for The Washington Post titled “The U.S. is wrong about the Muslim Brotherhood — and the Arab world is suffering for it.” In it, he blames the United States’ aversion to the Muslim Brotherhood for the “loss of a great opportunity to reform the entire Arab world and allow a historic change that might have freed the region from a thousand years of tyranny.”
    Get that? It is the Sharia supremacist Muslim Brotherhood that in Khashoggi’s view would have “liberated” the Arab world.”

    https://thefederalist.com/2018/10/19/khashoggi-made-defining-issue-u-s-foreign-policy/

    Good read

    harkin (adce92)

  92. 73 – “Trump has also been attacked for being NK “Best friend”.

    Trump never should have given them nuke technology…..

    harkin (adce92)

  93. One of the ones, who did Nancy Soderbergh is running in my district, with extra chutzpah.

    Narciso (d1f714)

  94. Poor rug head lost his parts.

    Don’t ever say anything remotely like that on my site again.

    Patterico (44ba8e)

  95. Good read

    IMO that article is a load of Trumpist horseshit. “Casting” MBS as a murderer. Fuck the guy who wrote that.

    Patterico (44ba8e)

  96. Your response still seems to me to mean at least that the US ‘ought’ to respond though perhaps I went too far in saying that you thought the US ‘had a duty’ to do so.

    Correct, or that we “owe” it to him. I do believe we should use the Global Magnitsky Act if it’s proved, and increasingly it looks like it will be.

    Patterico (44ba8e)

  97. Mike Coffman, who is a “representative” from Colorado, is doing pee-pee in his pants about this whole shoggi thing

    (Mike Coffman btw is a member of a club started by Meghan McCain’s now-defunct daddy called the Republican Main Street Partnership)

    he says we have to do human rights all up in it for shoggi (we being america i guess)

    Rep. Mike Coffman (R-Colo.) on Friday condemned Saudi Arabia’s admission that journalist Jamal Khashoggi had died inside its consulate in Istanbul and called for the acting U.S. ambassador to be called back from Saudi Arabia.

    “[O]ur country must stand up for our values and demand our ‘allies’ respect human rights,” Coffman said in a statement posted on Twitter. “I did not fight to have us look the other way.”

    what a goof

    if i were running for re-election for Colorado I’d be talking about things people actually care about like sandwiches and health care and ways to make a dollar go farther even as the insane weirdos at the wacky wacky fed ratchet up interest rates higher and higher and higher

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  98. Under Trump, human rights are a joke to his mindless drones.

    Patterico (44ba8e)

  99. 100. So who was the last president to upbraid Saudi Arabia for human rights violations?

    Gryph (08c844)

  100. Here’s my prediction: The Magnitsky Act will be invoked, it will have absolutely no teeth, and nothing of any lasting importance will change in Saudi Arabia or in the United States of America.

    Gryph (08c844)

  101. And teh mullahs smile…

    Colonel Haiku (42c195)

  102. We haven’t learned anything from the fall of Mubarak, which s audi Arabia helped reverse, or that of qaddafi a bleeding wound into Europe seven years later, let’s just make the problem even bigger.

    Narciso (d1f714)

  103. Actually zawahiri, smiles, in that circumstance.

    Narciso (d1f714)

  104. this isn’t a human rights issue it’s just a crime where somebody got murdered

    human rights issues are more like how leggy meggy’s britain looks the other way at muslim gorroming gangs that rape young british girls over

    and over

    and over

    or like how muslims are doing female genital mutilation all over michigan

    or like how free speech is dead in germany and dying a ghastly death in the rest of europe

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  105. *gorromming* gangs i mean

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  106. It’s a win-win for Turkey and Iran.

    Colonel Haiku (42c195)

  107. And Qatar, they will have bragging right for a while.

    Narciso (d1f714)

  108. Keep on, keep on, keep on keepin’ on

    Colonel Haiku (42c195)

  109. it just feels super-silly how people are hyperventilating over poor dead shoggi

    i’m for sure raising my eyebrow over here and looking askance at all these people pretending this is like the biggest deal ever

    i’m sure we’ll find out sooner or later why this is being all ginned up, but so far it’s playing out like a bad episode of some stupid broadcast network television show with serial womanizer david duchovny’s ex-wife in it

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  110. Prince Salman really did hand them a sword, next they will go after the emirate, that buzzfeed piece was the opening round.

    Narciso (d1f714)

  111. Qatar! the island jewel of the gulf

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  112. And in the end, they will go after Israel, that’s been Mueller haunt of late.

    Narciso (d1f714)

  113. That was already a story line in madam secretary, last season, now they are going after polish alt rightists.

    Narciso (d1f714)

  114. Rinos love the mooslum brotherhood like family.

    mg (9e54f8)

  115. “Under Trump, human rights are a joke to his mindless drones.”
    Patterico (44ba8e) — 10/20/2018 @ 9:30 am

    Didn’t drone strikes start under Bush?

    Munroe (97810f)

  116. 117. Ignoring human rights abuses specifically by the Saudis goes back to the early eighteenth century. And no, I am not kidding.

    Gryph (08c844)

  117. Did they try to light a cigar with a tiki torch?

    urbanleftbehind (57335c)

  118. This new “fistfight” story is a Trumpist sort of story, in the sense that the Saudis clearly don’t care whether people believe it

    You have summed it up perfectly. The Saudis could have killed Kashoggi in any number of places and times. They could have hired a Turkish assassin to kill him in the streets of Ankara. Instead they chose to murder him inside a Saudi diplomatic facility in Turkey.

    The Constitution is the supreme law of the land in the US. In KSA and Turkey sharia is the supreme law of the universe. A look at the State Department web site for US travelers headed to the KSA (h/t Andy McCarthy) is instructive: “You are subject to local laws. If you violate local laws, even unknowingly, you may be expelled, arrested, imprisoned, subject to corporal punishments, or even executed.” Emphasis added. A little further down we find this: Saudi authorities do not permit criticism of Islam, religious figures, or the royal family.

    From the Saudi standpoint, Kashoggi was a Saudi citizen. He was inside a Saudi diplomatic facility technically he was on Saudi soil. He had frequently criticized the Saudi royals and their brand of Islam. As we say in Arabic, Alav ha-Sholom (rest in peace).

    To the extent that the late Mr. Kashoggi was, as a lawful US resident, under the protection of US law; we should do whatever may be appropriate on his behalf. He did publish op-ed columns in the WP, but he did not earn his living as a journalist. He was a ling standing Muslim Brotherhood operative. He is mentioned as such in The Looming Tower first published in 2005. If we want to crusade against killing journalists, let’s start with China and Russia. Turkey and the KSA are not in their league.

    Stu707 (3a9737)

  119. Human rights are a joke throughout the Middle East because the ruling parties/families believe and use the Koran to give themselves absolute power to do whatever to those who have not been blessed, or in their view even cursed by Allah.

    If a lawful permanent resident Mexican citizen was killed by the Saudi’s in the Saudi Istanbul consulate, I’d be a little more upset than finding a Saudi citizen got killed by Saudi’s in their territory.
    Which is where I am on that and it doesn’t make me a Trump humper to say that.(and besides that’s backwards. Technically you should be calling me Trumps punk which most everyone is too gutless to do so they go with Trumphumper)
    Legal permanent residents of the US of Mexican citizenship travel to Mexico and get offed by corrupt government all the time and nobody gives a rats ass. Its an internal problem we have zero control over except sanctions etc and when was the last time you saw Mexico sanctioned for a gruesome murder in Mexico of a Dual US and Mexican citizen much less a legal US resident?
    Their law enforcement can participate in kidnapping and torturing to death a US citizen DEA agent and we sent their law enforcement more money

    Bush and Obama did nothing except flood Mexico with more guns, or maybe someone can show me all the outrage and sanctions to what goes on every year right next door

    steveg (a9dcab)

  120. Like I said before, this will all end in jaw flapping and wrist slapping. With the elections in about 3 weeks I believe the news cycle will try to cover this as much as possible to put noise over the GOP for not criticizing Trump, (Trump hates immigrants and loves him some dictators) but the news being fickle as it is will probably force the Post to move on within the next week or so

    steveg (a9dcab)

  121. “Did they try to light a cigar with a tiki torch?”

    Made me think of this but wrong country, wrong desert.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil's_Cigarette_Lighter

    harkin (adce92)

  122. “Legal permanent residents of the US of Mexican citizenship travel to Mexico and get offed by corrupt government all the time and nobody gives a rats ass”.

    And beheadings aren’t just a Muslim thing:

    https://www.cnn.com/2012/05/13/world/americas/mexico-remains/index.html?no-st=9999999999

    https://www.thedenverchannel.com/decodedc/drug-cartels-across-the-border-just-as-brutal-as-isis

    harkin (adce92)

  123. Who acquiesced to or invited him to be a columnist for the Post?

    it’ll be interesting to see if wapo gets a new pet terror-symp or was this a one-off

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  124. Drive-By Commenter: Why should I care about this guy getting killed?

    Me: [reaching for delete button] Why should I care about your opinion?

    Patterico (115b1f)

  125. it’ll be interesting to see if wapo gets a new pet terror-symp or was this a one-off

    Fuck off. You’re just lying about this guy.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  126. F… off. You’re just lying about this guy.

    And the calls for civility continue to fall on deaf ears. Ours is a world of wonders.

    JSkorcher (3bfc26)

  127. i’m not lying it was in the news everyone’s pointing to this column he did about how he was a big supporter of Hamas, which is an internationally-recognized terrorist group

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  128. I have already said that the man was not perfect, that he was an Islamist (which I disagree with) and sympathetic to Palestinians (which I am not). But you use this to demonize him to minimize the fact that he was beheaded in the Saudi consulate, and to excuse your cult leader Trump for resisting taking this seriously. In this, you disgust and repel me. But then, you have for years. I have no respect for you at all.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  129. number one this has nothing to do with President Trump even a little

    that’s such a stretch – he’s doing a lot of work right now for freedom for example he’s doing a rally Monday with Ted Cruz!

    my sister signed up to go but she decided today not to go cause so many people are going there’s no way she’ll get in unless she goes the night before and waits in line

    number two my comments about his terror sympathies were very clearly focused NOT on minimizing his “beheading” (which the apple watch has not yet confirmed), but on the question of whether or not the wapo would seek to employ people with similar views to do opinion columns in the future:

    it’ll be interesting to see if wapo gets a new pet terror-symp or was this a one-off

    and i *do* think this will be interesting to see

    the democrats are becoming more and more comfortable with naked and unadorned anti-semitism (twitter can’t get enough of louis farrakhan for example), and lionizing this guy’s just another manifestation of the camel’s nose i think

    but is there now a “slot” for shoggi views at the wapo like there’s a jen rubin “slot” for fake republicans?

    we’ll find out after midterms i bet

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  130. In the 19th century, it was the real Mohammed Ali of Egypt that bottled up the wahhabis in diriyya and torched their capital, they sent a vizier to oversee, they only had the nejd and the east cost, there was a brief second kingdom in late 1800s when palgrave, two kings competed over the throne, this was back when dates were their main export. Oh as well as slaves

    Narciso (d1f714)

  131. number two my comments about his terror sympathies were very clearly focused NOT on minimizing his “beheading”

    Reading all of your comments together in context, that is precisely what you have been trying to do. For days.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  132. nonononono believe me there’s nobody on this whole blog what finds saudi royalty trash more offensive than i do

    i think they’re gross and really nasty people and they’re tacky and they expect you to cook for them all the time

    but it was President Trump that people were scared was gonna abjure the conventional Bushian thinkings about realpolitik

    but it turns out it’s nevertrump what’s eager to throw these ideas out the window now!

    i think that’s bemusing

    i am bemused by this

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  133. Being a Hamas supporter isn’t unique to the kingdom sadly the late Prince nayef chaired the alquds committee that funded them, the current king funded the camps that the hijackers trained from the ones that sent khattab to grozny that expedited zacharias mossaouis travels

    Narciso (d1f714)

  134. oops that should have been just *saudi royal trash*

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  135. on the first-pass analysis i think this is just a saudi version of the Mueller Russia Hoax in the sense that, just like nevertrump blew “russian election interference” up into a huge fake scandal they used to tie President Trump’s hands vis-a-vis conventional diplomacy with Russia, they’re now trying to use shoggi to similarly tie President Trump’s hands in the middle east

    this is just how they are

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  136. It’s clear to me that there are people on the Internet who are either unwilling or unable to comprehend the difference between criticizing the comment versus criticizing the person. As I mentioned here, some remedial Crash Davis may in order.

    Paul Montagu (7493c2)

  137. As I mentioned here

    You mean the part where you can say the person wrote a c**ksucking comment, but you’re kicked out of the game with “you c**ksucker”. For that matter, lots of things followed by “you” will likely–and should–cross the line.? Word.

    JSkorcher (3bfc26)

  138. 73 – “Trump has also been attacked for being NK “Best friend”.

    Trump never should have given them nuke technology…..

    If his heartthrob had written a beautiful enough letter, he might have!

    Dave (9664fc)

  139. The Democrats and Never-trumpers only seem to care about human rights when the MSM does. They seem to march in lockstep.

    Where’s all the human rights concerns for journalists killed in Mexico? Or the lack of Democracy in Cuba? or the various crimes committed by the Chinese Government?

    What’s happening in Yemen? Why are we still in Afghanistan and Syria? We never get much attention to these issues, or in-depth analysis.

    But for one Saudi Journo dies and we get screaming headlines for two weeks.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  140. Therefore, my Harry, Be it thy course, to busy giddy minds
    With foreign quarrels;

    rcocean (1a839e)

  141. Chill time? I don’t know what Kashoggi’s true sympathies were. Maybe he was, comparatively, a moderate but also at times was pro-Muslim Brotherhood and OK with terrorism. I don’t have any way of knowing and in the end don’t really care. You’d think we could all agree on some basic facts: no one deserves a horrible death like he suffered, the Saudis are obviously lying about it, and whoever ordered him killed is a murderer.

    And from an America-first perspective (not a Trump-first, or Dem-first, or GOP-first) the sooner and farther we can distance ourselves from an “ally” that does that sort of thing, the better.

    RL formerly in Glendale (40f5aa)

  142. Like with Putin, the Saudis have their own troll army, and one of their targets was Khashoggi.

    Paul Montagu (8d2328)

  143. didn’t you hear, the congress allocated 500 million dollars to the Syrian rebels, well not the ones on our side, like the kurds, it would be interesting to know where that money went,

    narciso (d1f714)

  144. and what is the journalist, montagu, but the democrats troll army,

    narciso (d1f714)

  145. now admittedly this is as botched an exercise as Nasser, did in 1966, something mohammed atta remembered in 2001,

    narciso (d1f714)

  146. 143. Don’t hold your breath.

    Gryph (5efbad)

  147. Compassionate Conservatives desire

    mg (9e54f8)

  148. that would be of syed qutb, vendettas based on religious or ethnic tensions, are rather virulent, consider in the 20s, Croatian nationalists deprived of political authority, went on a rampage killing the king of Yugoslavia, among others, they would later become the puppet regime for hitler, being even more bloodthirsty, around this time the lead Palestinian leader, haj amin husseini, having been exiled to berlin, after waging a three year intifada against Israel, raised an ss division, largely composed of muslim conscripts, like those in bosnia, two generations later, the serbs like Milosevic, remembered that tale, and sought to balance the scales, of course, it’s around this time that the sauds recruited veterans from the afghan war, to fight the muslims and the croats,

    narciso (d1f714)

  149. among those in that cadres, were at least two of the 9/11 hijackers from san diego, and the brothers Zawahiri,

    narciso (d1f714)

  150. i fear people have begun to tire of this luckless shoggi fellow and his untimely demise

    it’s not a tale what holds any particular relevance to the typical american news consumer

    hrm

    maybe if we took halloween and rebranded it as shoggiween this year

    everybody would be saying hey happyfeet what are you doing for shoggiween?

    and I can be like oh I thought i’d go as a brexit this year!

    ooh that sounds like a great shoggiween costume happy

    i know i thought of it myself

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  151. Maybe if the shrines were under the hashemites as they were till 1924, the kingdom might be able to progress, Jordan has it’s fingernail palace, but otherwise it’s generally moderate, Egypt was as well in the colonial period, there was the wafd party that eventually arose, but the brotherhood came after.

    Narciso (d1f714)

  152. there’s no really good reason to get your nails done in Jordan with Israel being so close

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  153. That’s what they call the main interrogation center at general intelligence headquarters in amman, zarqawi was a guest of theirs for a number of years then they let him out for good behavior

    Narciso (d1f714)

  154. the Aquino principle mentioned by Kevin M.

    Ninoy Aquino, who had asylum in the US, was pretty much our guy to succeed Ferdinand Marcos. As things began to fall apart as Marcos’ health declined, and against all advice, Aquino returned to the Philippines in order to have talks with Marcos about a return to democracy (Marcos was ruling under martial law).

    When his plane landed, security officers came aboard and removed Aquino from the plane. He was almost immediately shot and killed on the tarmac, and a “crazed assassin” was also shot and killed. Utterly no one believed the Marcos’ story. Within days, the pressure became so great on Marcos he offered to hold a “snap election” while appearing on “This Week”, after being called out as a murderer by Brinkley and George Will.

    He lost to Corizon Aquino, Ninoy’s widow.

    The “principle” I referred to was that the US takes a very dim view of countries that kill political figures we have given asylum to. It was a metaphor, not an official thing like the Monroe Doctrine.

    Kevin M (a57144)

  155. The episode I referred to earlier,

    Narciso (d1f714)

  156. WaPo Ran Kavanaugh Story With Knowingly False Information

    this is who they are

    they are as daddy bezos wants them to be

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  157. Several thoughts. One, Khashoggi didn’t have to die. He was pro-regime in many respects. Bin Salman (and perhaps his advisors) have been too paranoid and thuggish. Hopefully, the blowback from this will make them think twice.
    Two, despite this major clusterf**k by bin Salman, the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia is still an ally with the United States, and any alternative to the Saud family could spell disaster for the Arab world. Why? Because of all the Islamist hardliners and Wahabbis already there. As much as there is to dislike this autocratic monarchy, better to stick with Plan A.
    Three, we want a stable Saudi Arabia, not just to keep militant Islamism from getting worse, but to foil the de facto theocratic regime in Iran.
    Four, this episode is all the more reason for the US to be oil independent. In this, I agree with Trump: It is in our interests to go full steam ahead on oil exploration, not to mention all other energy sources (except coal, IMO, which should be phased out for all the CO2 expelled). If we can utilize all the North American oil supply and not have to import oil from anywhere else, then we have leverage with the Saudis, OPEC, Venezuela, Russia and any other bad actors who will play power politics against us on energy.

    Paul Montagu (8d2328)

  158. It’s really a Hatfield/McCoy contest between the kingdom and the emirate, except the clan confederations are in both places, it’s not an accident that the latter has assumed the leadership of the salafi militants, there are spokesman of that group in the kingdom, notable sheikh awda,

    Narciso (d1f714)

  159. Btw the skull cap that sammeh was referring to is called a thagiyah, it’s ties with a cord called an aghal

    Narciso (d1f714)

  160. “And from an America-first perspective (not a Trump-first, or Dem-first, or GOP-first) the sooner and farther we can distance ourselves from an “ally” that does that sort of thing, the sooner the better”

    Or go Clinton/Obama and give them nuke technology.

    harkin (adce92)

  161. Rula jabreal, one of the most militantly anti Israeli figures on the planet, shirley.

    Narciso (d1f714)

  162. Yeah, the Saudis suck. They suck less than the Iranians. They probably suck less than the Turks. They are quietly allied with our pals the Israelis, who are not overly concerned about niceties sometimes (e.g. Gerald Bull). If we are going to quit on people in hard-edged cultures because they don’t behave like Canadians, we are going to have few effective friends in the world.

    That isn’t to excuse this, which may or may not have been ordered at the highest levels. If it was, I hope they come clean and explain themselves, if possible. They must have a good reason for the risk they took. If it was ordered by others, I fully expect THAT will come out and measures will be taken.

    In the end, though, we are not going to toss the Saudis over the cliff like we did with the (similarly repugnant) Shah of Iran, considering how badly that moral posturing turned out.

    Kevin M (a57144)

  163. It was a monumental screw up, I don’t think any good will come of this, in part because jihadists now have a genuine martyr, and he will probably have to retrench on much of the progress to keep the hardline elements.

    Narciso (d1f714)

  164. Maybe we can send Jimmy Carter to lecture them on human rights.

    Kevin M (a57144)

  165. Ah yes, hafez Assad was his best pal after Hama, in fact it was Friedman who came up with hama rules, and he didn’t mean it as a pejorative.

    Narciso (d1f714)

  166. 108- Kevin M
    Thanks, I just blew ice cream everywhere.
    😎

    mg (9e54f8)

  167. 168

    mg (9e54f8)

  168. Yeah, the Saudis suck. They suck less than the Iranians

    Agreed. And it’s one thing to recognize the mistake Carter made, which has cost a lot of lives and plunged Iran into hell for over a generation, but another to carry water for the Saudi Royal family and pretend we don’t understand what happened.

    Plenty our enemies, see destroying the US and Saudi Arabia alliance as key. Perhaps that was the ultimate goal of the 9/11 attacks.

    I hope Trump is successful navigating here with courage and moral leadership, his two primary…. opportunities for growth as a person. He has really fallen short with North Korea and Russia on these sorts of difficult issues. George W Bush wasn’t perfect, but he was better. Trump didn’t give the other Presidents any slack for these difficulties when he signed up to do such a better job.

    But yes, you’re right that the sucky Saudi government is actually no where near the worst case scenario.

    Dustin (e19070)

  169. all obama ever wanted to do on saudi arabia is lick their toes

    he liked to get down on his knees and lick those saudi toes

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  170. Even if Saudi Arabia is our dog, even a dog needs to be told “Bad dog!” and maybe given a whack with a stick or a good kick when it misbehaves.

    nk (dbc370)

  171. yes but Dems just like to lick those toes

    they like to lick those saudi toes

    look at Martin Heinrich he mewls he mewls:

    “The United States cannot allow this gross human rights violation to go unanswered,” Heinrich said in his statement. “I am therefore calling for a ban on oil imports from Saudi Arabia until the highest levels of Saudi government are held accountable for their actions.”

    The senator appears to be the first to call for such a ban.

    sounds like a tough lil toe-licker huh?

    not so fast there sparky let’s go to the tape!


    Vote number 11-HV320 opening Outer Continental Shelf to oil drilling on May 12, 2011 regarding bill H.1231 Reversing Pres. Obama’s Offshore Moratorium Act

    yes yes it’s as you feared

    Saudi toe-licker Martin Heinrich voted AGAINST opening the Outer Continental Shelf of the United States to oil drilling, and then he went into a private booth and licked some Saudi toes

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  172. All that means is that he went long on oil futures.

    nk (dbc370)

  173. Heinrich explains why he supports the Iran deal

    nonono he was all about LIFTING sanctions on the jew-hating genocidal iranians to the everlasting glory of allah’s gorgeously suckable toes

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  174. They’re all of them nothing but a bunch of crooks.

    nk (dbc370)

  175. Did you notice how much Robert Francis O’Rourke looks like Wendy Davis? Just put a blonde big hair wig and a pair of pink sneakers on him, and you couldn’t tell them apart.

    nk (dbc370)

  176. nobody in history has moved more aggressively to undercut saudi energy dominance than our president, President Donald Trump

    that’s an accurate historical fact

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  177. beto reminds me of those creepy youth pastors what try way too hard to be relatable

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  178. Yes, my daughter and I had a good laugh when she asked how come he’s called “Beto” and I explained that he’s trying to pass as Mexican.

    nk (dbc370)

  179. Okay, okay, so you didn’t like our previous story so, uh, how about this one!

    The latest account, provided by a Saudi official who requested anonymity, includes details on how the team of 15 Saudi nationals sent to confront Khashoggi on Oct. 2 had threatened him with being drugged and kidnapped and then killed him in a chokehold when he resisted. A member of the team then dressed in Khashoggi’s clothes to make it appear as if he had left the consulate.

    Of course, they can make up just anything, as long they don’t produce the body (or body parts) for an autopsy.

    Paul Montagu (8d2328)

  180. I’ll never eat shawarma in Istanbul again.

    nk (dbc370)

  181. looking for the ultimate shoggiween lawn ornament?

    get in line

    Friends of journalist Khashoggi demand Saudis produce his body

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  182. It’s not an unreasonable request, unless he’s been hoffa’d

    Narciso (d1f714)

  183. the reason failmerica never coughed up bin laden’s body was cause everybody understands that in these loathsomely retrograde middle east cultures corpses are exploited in the most vile crass and propagandistic ways

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  184. A complete body with evidence only of suffocation from a chokehold would go a long way to make the Turks look like big, fat liars and the Arabs no worse than the CIA.

    nk (dbc370)

  185. I think the Turkish Dexter was a bit much. Or that German series the cleaner.

    Narciso (d1f714)

  186. feed the wurrruruld

    let them know that shoggi’s dead and

    feed the wurrruruld

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  187. Well he showed great understanding on 9/11, not, it’s only when the chickens came home to roost in 2003

    Narciso (d1f714)

  188. The Saudis kill another Saudi in Turkey and he was a journalist.

    And I should be extremely bothered by it? C’mon… get serious.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  189. whaddo we want

    vengeance for shoggi

    whendo we want it

    NOW

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  190. The funniest man on the planet these days is Norm Macdonald and he’s not an American, he’s Canadian.

    That bothers me much more than the demise of this fellow.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  191. Glenn Greenwald
    @ggreenwald
    Not only did Obama lavish the Saudis with weapons and intel used to destroy Yemen, he *cut short his state visit to India, the world’s largest democracy* to fly to Riyadh to pay homage to the Saudi King. Here’s what he said when challenged about it:

    https://mobile.twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/1053974895300956162
    __ _

    No matter – Be prepared for ‘Trump colluded w Russia’ to transition to ‘Trump colluded w S Arabia’.

    harkin (adce92)

  192. It bothers Canadians more to be told they’re not Americans.

    harkin (adce92)

  193. Really I didn’t know that, coronello.

    Narciso (d1f714)

  194. Seriously, watch Macdonald’s new Netflix series. The first two installments with David Spade and Drew Barrymore had me laughing like I haven’t in quite some time.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  195. That was his response to 3,000 American dead.

    Narciso (d1f714)

  196. David spade can be taken in small doses.

    Narciso (d1f714)

  197. Even Spade is pretty funny, despite being from AZ.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  198. The only people less funny than those who hail from AZ are people from Missouri.

    The don’t show me schiff.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  199. Norm McDonald is a great North American.

    Paul Montagu (f1c2b9)

  200. I though he was from Connecticut or somewhere up there.

    Narciso (262d57)

  201. The only people less funny than those who hail from AZ are people from Missouri.

    on this we agree, colonel. Probably why I haven’t followed a good quarter of the extended family to the Copper State.

    urbanleftbehind (eed4d5)

  202. After perusing the ol’ wikipedia, i wonder if Macdonalds dad was part of that Canadian army unit that a certain hassled poster used to rave about.

    urbanleftbehind (eed4d5)

  203. Obama, Clinton and the Benghazi victims those two had killed, journalists don’t care why should I?

    mg (9e54f8)

  204. I trust the Turks, I trust the Turks, I trust the Turks.
    Rufkm

    mg (9e54f8)

  205. I didn’t know Spartacus was gay.

    mg (9e54f8)

  206. Charlie Hedbo’s office
    Nothing to write about
    Saudi, Saudi, Saudi Arabia

    mg (9e54f8)

  207. Haiku, at 194, you remind me of what Eddie Izzard said (emphasis mine):

    …[T]here were … mass murderers that got away with it! Stalin killed many millions, died in his bed, well done there; Pol Pot killed 1.7 million Cambodians, died under house arrest at age 72, well done indeed! And the reason we let them get away with it is because they killed their own people, and we’re sort of fine with that. “Ah, help yourself,” you know? “We’ve been trying to kill you for ages!” So kill your own people, right on there. Seems to be… Hitler killed people next door… “Oh… stupid man!” After a couple of years, we won’t stand for that, will we?

    Pol Pot killed 1.7 million people. We can’t even deal with that! You know, we think if somebody kills someone, that’s murder, you go to prison. You kill 10 people, you go to Texas, they hit you with a brick, that’s what they do. 20 people, you go to a hospital, they look through a small window at you forever. And over that, we can’t deal with it, you know? Someone’s killed 100,000 people. We’re almost going, “Well done! You killed 100,000 people? You must get up very early in the morning. I can’t even get down [to the] the gym! Your diary must look odd: “Get up in the morning, death, death, death, death, death, death, death – lunch- death, death, death -afternoon tea – death, death, death – quick shower…”

    But if you really believe what you said, that it’s OK since they’re killing their own, and besides it was only a journalist, then that’s detestable. That type of attitude is huge step backwards to barbarism.

    Tillman (61f3c8)

  208. Benghazi

    mg (a05430)

  209. Because they were part of our embrace with Mao, and years later they were partners with anti communist exiles based in Thailand against the Vietnamese puppet regime.

    Narciso (b15897)

  210. Or you want to go for the grand prize in blood letting that would be the Congo, that what happened when mobutu, that’s what Susan rice and joe Wilson give themselves high fives.

    Narciso (25002e)

  211. Thanks, that means a lot to me, Tillman.

    Colonel Haiku (311cb7)

  212. No matter – Be prepared for ‘Trump colluded w Russia’ to transition to ‘Trump colluded w S Arabia’.

    He’d only be doing what Clinton, the Bushes, and Obama did, according to commenters on this thread.

    nk (dbc370)

  213. BTW, can someone explain to me how we know that the Crown Prince ordered this, or even knew about it in advance? Even Nixon didn’t know about Watergate ahead of time — that was Mitchell’s bright idea.

    Kevin M (a57144)

  214. Your diary must look odd: “Get up in the morning, death, death, death, death, death, death, death – lunch- death, death, death -afternoon tea – death, death, death – quick shower…”

    Pretty much what Che Guevara’s diary looks like. He had an office above the firing squad area at a prison, but his view was obstructed so they removed part of the wall. He liked watching the killing.

    Kevin M (a57144)

  215. Because the short tyrion looking army attache, who had been his colleague in London was present, he probably worked for the poet ambassador who Celebrated suicide bombers, steyn wrote about him

    narciso (d1f714)

  216. 213. Let me make one thing abundantly clear here: I am most emphatically not saying that what happened to Shoggi is okay. What I am saying is that the whole Saudi royal despotism factory is a western construct — which it is. And I’m saying it is American policy to look the other way when things like this happen. It didn’t start with Trump, although having a loudmouth braggart like Trump in office does bring episodes like this to the fore.

    Gryph (08c844)

  217. He’s bringing transparency to a longstanding policy.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  218. As Columbo would say, scratching his head and turning around just as it seemed like he was going to leave:

    I am not sure people have noticed this, because he’s s;ipped into this really, but Donald Trump, in spite of hizself, probably as a result of his interactions with his subordinates and other people, is acting like Colombo in the matter of the death of Jamal Khashoggi:

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2018/10/19/donald-trump-saudis-take-first-step-resolve-khashoggi-murder/1700883002/

    In his comments to reporters, Trump said he still wants to speak with the Saudi crown prince, and more investigation needs to be done. He said he does not believe that Saudi leaders have lied to him about the deadly incident.

    “We’ll be talking to them,” Trump said. “We’ll see what happens. We may have some questions – we do have some questions.”

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  219. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-questions-saudi-story-on-khashoggi-as-corker-sasse-reject-new-explanation/

    President Trump said Saudi Arabia had been untruthful in the weeks since journalist Jamal Khashoggi’s death in a Saudi consulate in Istanbul but avoided pinning responsibility on the country’s heir apparent, while lawmakers on Sunday blasted the kingdom’s new explanation as far-fetched….

    ….Mr. Trump, who initially said he found the Saudis’ latest explanation credible, told the Washington Post on Saturday that “obviously there’s been deception, and there’s been lies,” saying the kingdom’s story was “all over the place.” But he also praised the country as “an incredible ally” and stressed the importance of Saudi weapons purchases.

    Mr. Trump said he didn’t know if Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman, next in line to the Saudi throne, knew about the operation beforehand.

    “Nobody has told me he’s responsible. Nobody has told me he’s not responsible. We haven’t reached that point … I would love if he wasn’t responsible,” Mr. Trump told the Post. “There is a possibility he found out about it afterward. It could be something in the building went badly awry.”

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  220. I am kind of enjoying seeing the government of Saudi Arabia twisting, slowly, slowly, in the wind.

    Although I don’t know where this is going.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  221. If I didn’t bear the sin of consulting yahoonews and the Hogan-Thiel zombiezine and nauseum, I’d accuse the Col. of being Glenn Harlan Reynolds in disguise.

    urbanleftbehind (eed4d5)

  222. 219. Kevin M (a57144) — 10/21/2018 @ 10:51 am

    BTW, can someone explain to me how we know that the Crown Prince ordered this, or even knew about it in advance?

    He’s gthe most likely suspect, and he has insisted a situation where nobody can go against him.

    The Saudi claim – the leaked claim, for there was a statement from the Saudi Attorney General in the middle of the night, and another statement from the Foreign Ministry and unofficial leaks, maybe not all the same – is that there was a general order to return dissidents which, in the process fo passing down through the ranks got stronger and stronger in a kind of a game of telephone. And they don’t know where the body is because the people involved told them they turned it over to some local collaborator – what they routinely work with crininals in Turkey?

    They say 18 people have been arrested and leak that that’s the 15 people who went to Turkey – except that some of the names are wrong – plus two consular employees and a driver.

    Apparently in this version of events the pilot is not dead.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  223. Even Nixon didn’t know about Watergate ahead of time — that was Mitchell’s bright idea.

    No it wasn’t. It wss presented to him as G. Gordon Liddy’s idea and Mitchell was afraid to say no becasue he knew Liddy had bene put into the campaign by Nixon and was maybe a kind of pet. He had 3 meetings each time Liddy reduced the budget in half. He never actually said yes.

    Now Liddy was actually told to do the Watergate breakin by Jeb Stuart Magruder who was probably told to do that by John Dean and John Dean did it because he was working with some Democrats, because he wanted to make Agnew president.

    Liddy had a spy in McGovern campaign headquarters, Tom Gregory, who had been recruited by Robert F. Foster) Bennett, the son of a Republican Senator from Utah, Wallace Foster Bennett, (Senator 1950 through 1974) and later himself Senator from Utah from 1992 till 2010 when he was defeated by the Tea Party, although this – that he was the Senator from Watergate – never came up

    It was getting impossible to avoid planting a bug there, and Liddy was now going to stage abreak in at McGovern headquarters. John Dean basically ordered Liddy to place abug at teh DNC first where it was much easier for him to get caught. Gregory quit the day before Liddy was to plaxe a bug at McGovern headquarters.

    Gregory had bene assigned the task of placing a bug therem, but somehow they always failed

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  224. The UAE and the Saudis are the countries actively fighting against the Iranian Nazi conquest of the Middle East. It is in America’s interest to hold this alliance together.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  225. happyfeet (28a91b) — 10/19/2018 @ 6:12 pm

    no i agree with Mr. 57 that if the saudi-pickles wanted to gank shoggi they’d have done it much more surreptitiously than this

    I can think of a few reasons that they were not so surreptitious:

    1) They were new to this business.

    2) All the people involved wanted some kind of immunity fro prosecution. None were prepared to commit a crime on foreign soil.

    In the case of Russia and North Korea they used professional military men, or people who were not citizens of their own country. There were no people close to the Crown Prince prepared to take the risk of doing something for which they could be arrested. (as nk says there are criminal violations that took place in places with Turkish jurisdiction with regard to conspiracy to commit murder and in transporting the body, but they probably were not thinking of that.)

    3) It may have started out as a kidnapping plot but in the course of planning it they changed it to a murder. As they revised the plan, they didn’t revise the location.

    4) They needed to use the coinsulate. They didn’t know any other way to get Jamal Khashoggi into a location that they controlled. Khashoggi was planning to get married the next day and they had probably been putting him off for some time. The way they did it they had the best probability of getting him to a murder site because it was the last day so they thoughthe was virtually certain to keep his appointment. (The murder team couldn’t stay outside of the country day after day – they had other jobs.)

    5) Finally, they actually were surreptitious. They killed him and got the body out of the country without anybody noticing anything wrong.

    But they overlooked the fact that other people would know Jamal Khashoggi entered the consulate, and didn’t count on his fiance going with him (who is Saudi arabia takes wives with them on business?) and the enormous amount of surveillance footage a presumed terrorist target gets nowadays, so everybody would know he went in there,and didn’t leave.

    In this connection, I am not sure what was the purpose of a person leaving the consulate wearing Khashoggi’s clothes, if that’s what happened.

    That was several hours later and they never used the footage in their defense. Or did they point it out to Turkey, but Turkey just ignored it?

    I think that was just a method of disposing of the bloody clothes,and has nothing to with pretending Khashoggi left.

    They maybe took more time to get rid of the clothes than they did of Khashoggi himself so it couldn’t go on the plane with him. Maybe they had to clean them first and that took time.

    The double supposedly left wearing Khashoggi’s clothes, went into “a tourist attraction” and changed his clothes in a bathroom and exited another door other than the one by which he went in.

    If the Turks have his clothes, they also probably tested it for DNA.

    but what i know for sure is the people who are hell-bent on finding out what happened to the shogster in the depths of filthy foreign turkey (dirty nato scum-country) are remarkably incurious about what the filthy corrupt fbi’s been up to on our own soil

    Sammy Finkelman (102c75)

  226. The Wall Street Journal reports that two members of teh royal family say Prince Khalid al faisel heard a tape:

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/scandal-over-dead-journalist-jolts-heir-to-saudi-throne-1540076164

    In the kingdom itself, a number of Saudi royals have tried to reach out to King Salman to discuss the crisis, but have been blocked by associates of the crown prince, said two members of the royal family. They have been secretly meeting in small groups to discuss the issue, they said.

    Among other things, some of these people are challenging the official version of what happened to Mr. Khashoggi. Prince Khalid al Faisal, an envoy of King Salman who was dispatched to Ankara earlier this month, had access to a short audio recording that offers evidence that Mr. Khashoggi was drugged, killed and dismembered minutes after walking into the consulate, these two members say.

    “The audio does not have this nonsense about a fight that broke after an argument,” said one royal member. “This is not what Khalid told the king and his friends. This is absolutely rubbish.”

    Sammy Finkelman (102c75)

  227. Mohammed bin Salman is said to be a protege of the United Arab Emirates – and I guess it could be said that he tried to make the country look like the UAE. Autocratic rule but less maybe medieval.

    Turkish newspapers have been blaming the failed coup against Erdogan on the UAE. (that’s a change at least, or a variation, from blaming Fethullah Gülen in Pennsylvania.

    Sammy Finkelman (102c75)

  228. This was inadvertantly quoted from happyfeet:

    but what i know for sure is the people who are hell-bent on finding out what happened to the shogster in the depths of filthy foreign turkey (dirty nato scum-country) are remarkably incurious about what the filthy corrupt fbi’s been up to on our own soil

    I don’t write that way and son’t agree.

    Ergogan made a television broadcast Sunday saying he’s going to reveal it all i its full nakedness on Tuesday in a speech that he will deliover to members of his own party.

    He might only mean make an accusation without playing any recording.

    And if he wants to tell all, some other countries may have played a part, too. We’ll see if he tells all.

    Sammy Finkelman (102c75)

  229. “The United States’s aversion to the Muslim Brotherhood, which is more apparent in the current Trump administration, is the root of a predicament across the entire Arab world. The eradication of the Muslim Brotherhood is nothing less than an abolition of democracy and a guarantee that Arabs will continue living under authoritarian and corrupt regimes.”

    —- Jamal Khashoggi August 28, 2018 in the Washington Post

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  230. Turkish President recep Erdogan in his address to Parliament (not his party) said nthing about an audio tape. He called the murder a bad name and said the people incolved should be tried in Turkey.

    There have been reports that Khashoggi’s body, or body parts were found at the residence of the Saudi consul general – one report (by Sky news) claimed he was buried in the garden and another, attributed to Dogu Perincek, a leader of the Turkish opposition party, Rodina, in a Tirkish news organization said that his body was found in a well.

    This has not been backed up, and would be odd.

    The first plane arrived at the airport at 4:29 am about a half hour after Khashoggi came back from London (he sas very very active, now) Khashoggi went into the consulate about 1:10. The second plane arrived several hours after that and stayed only for an hour but stayed 27 hours in Egypt, according to TIME Magazine.

    The first plane stopped in the United Arab Emirates.

    MbS made a surprise appaearance at the business conference in the Ritz Carlton (which has fewer westerners tahn expected but more Saudis, Russiana dn Chinese) where he got a round of applause. he also met with the son of the brother and was televised shaking their hands in connection with some kind of an apology. Khasshoggi’s family was not allowed to leave the country to join him, and that is said to have led to his divorce.

    teh Washinghton Post knew nothing of his marriage plans. He was going to marry Hatice Cengiz, a 36-year old Ph.D student (23 years younger) whom he met at a conference in Istanbul in May where Khashoggi spoke. She asked him a quesiton and things developed from there.

    Khasshoggi had been in the consulate the previous Friday where he was treated well by juior officials (did he expect to get his document then? The marriage was sceduled for the next day, October 3.)

    They were already living together but had not furnished it much and Khashoggi was planning to divide hsi time between Washington and Turkey.

    Sammy Finkelman (102c75)

  231. The lira tanked, the govt partner defected over pension reform and there were few details, and Salman got 50 billion in pledges

    Narciso (d1f714)

  232. The Saudis changed their story again after CIA Director Gina Haspel (who knows Turkish, and worked in Tirkey for the CIA, I don’t know about her knowledge of Arabic) probably had a recording played for her. Gina Haspel wss probably invited to come by the Turkish government. A Saudi official had also heard an excerpt from the recording so they knew some f waht Turkey had.

    The Saudi Attorney General now says the murder was premeditated (“strangled in a fistfight” is out)

    Mohammed bin Salman has been put in charge of shaking up Saudi intelligence operations.

    Sammy Finkelman (102c75)

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