Patterico's Pontifications

10/17/2018

Report: Audio Proof Exists That Saudis Tortured, Dismembered, and Beheaded Khashoggi

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 7:13 pm



Those “rogue killers” got busy quick:

Saudi agents were waiting when Jamal Khashoggi walked into their country’s consulate in Istanbul two weeks ago. Mr. Khashoggi was dead within minutes, beheaded, dismembered, his fingers severed, and within two hours the killers were gone, according to details from audio recordings described by a senior Turkish official on Wednesday.

The government of Turkey let out these and other leaks about the recordings on Wednesday, as Secretary of State Mike Pompeo visited Ankara, in an escalation of pressure on both Saudi Arabia and the United States for answers about Mr. Khashoggi, a prominent Saudi dissident journalist who lived in Virginia and wrote for The Washington Post.

The new leaks, which were also splashed in lurid detail across a pro-government newspaper, came a day after Mr. Pompeo and the Trump administration had appeared to accept at face value the promises of the Saudi rulers to conduct their own investigation into Mr. Khashoggi’s disappearance — regardless of Turkish assertions that senior figures in the royal court had ordered his killing.

. . . .

Whether Mr. Khashoggi was killed before his fingers were removed and his body dismembered could not be determined.

. . . .

A top Saudi doctor of forensics had been brought along for the dissection and disposal of the body — an addition to the team that Turkish officials have called evidence of premeditation. And as the agents cut off Mr. Khashoggi’s head and dismembered his body, the doctor had some advice, according to the senior Turkish official.

Listen to music, he told them, as he donned headphones himself. That was what he did to ease the tension when doing such work, the doctor explained, according to the official describing the contents of the audio recordings.

Wow! It’s … just like the Kavanaugh hearing, isn’t it? After all, who doesn’t remember the leaks describing the audio in which Dr. Ford screamed for her life?

It’s OK, though, I’m told by the Trumpers, because in his numerous columns advocating democracy, pluralism, women’s rights, free speech, and the like, Khashoggi also wrote one supporting the Muslim Brotherhood.

The United States’s aversion to the Muslim Brotherhood, which is more apparent in the current Trump administration, is the root of a predicament across the entire Arab world. The eradication of the Muslim Brotherhood is nothing less than an abolition of democracy and a guarantee that Arabs will continue living under authoritarian and corrupt regimes. In turn, this will mean the continuation of the causes behind revolution, extremism and refugees — all of which have affected the security of Europe and the rest of the world. Terrorism and the refugee crisis have changed the political mood in the West and brought the extreme right to prominence there.

There can be no political reform and democracy in any Arab country without accepting that political Islam is a part of it. A significant number of citizens in any given Arab country will give their vote to Islamic political parties if some form of democracy is allowed. It seems clear then that the only way to prevent political Islam from playing a role in Arab politics is to abolish democracy, which essentially deprives citizens of their basic right to choose their political representatives.

I don’t agree with this point of view, but there is a distinction (as Maajid Nawaz and Sam Harris explained in their book Islam and the Future of Tolerance: A Dialogue) between Islamic terrorists (jihadists) and Islamists, who want Islamic government. Khashoggi argues that Islamism may be inherent in democracy in Islamic societies; I don’t agree, but I also don’t consider that view to be a thoughtcrime for which the appropriate sentence is beheading and dismemberment.

The problem was not the guy writing columns for the Washington Post. At this point, the problem is the guy who ordered the gruesome murder, and those who defend him by spouting Saudi propaganda.

UPDATE: The Washington Post has published Khashoggi’s last column. An editor’s note says:

A note from Karen Attiah, Global Opinions editor

I received this column from Jamal Khashoggi’s translator and assistant the day after Jamal was reported missing in Istanbul. The Post held off publishing it because we hoped Jamal would come back to us so that he and I could edit it together. Now I have to accept: That is not going to happen. This is the last piece of his I will edit for The Post. This column perfectly captures his commitment and passion for freedom in the Arab world. A freedom he apparently gave his life for. I will be forever grateful he chose The Post as his final journalistic home one year ago and gave us the chance to work together.

Quotable from the column:

My dear friend, the prominent Saudi writer Saleh al-Shehi, wrote one of the most famous columns ever published in the Saudi press. He unfortunately is now serving an unwarranted five-year prison sentence for supposed comments contrary to the Saudi establishment. The Egyptian government’s seizure of the entire print run of a newspaper, al-Masry al Youm, did not enrage or provoke a reaction from colleagues. These actions no longer carry the consequence of a backlash from the international community. Instead, these actions may trigger condemnation quickly followed by silence.

As a result, Arab governments have been given free rein to continue silencing the media at an increasing rate. There was a time when journalists believed the Internet would liberate information from the censorship and control associated with print media. But these governments, whose very existence relies on the control of information, have aggressively blocked the Internet. They have also arrested local reporters and pressured advertisers to harm the revenue of specific publications.

Condemnation, quickly followed by silence.

UPDATE x2: To answer the question of commenter nk: yes, this potentially comes within the Global Magnitsky Act, according to no less a personage than Bill Browder himself.

Now, almost every lawmaker on the Senate Foreign Relations committee is pushing for the Trump administration to use Global Magnitsky Sanctions on whoever is found responsible for Khashoggi’s disappearance and/or murder. If the Turkish reports are confirmed, then we in the West must act.

Applying the Global Magnitsky Act to Saudi officials would be particularly powerful. These officials are extremely rich, and they keep their money all over the world. They have bank accounts in every major financial capital, and they own luxury properties in London, Paris, and New York.

The moment that a person is added to a Magnitsky List in the West, it destroys their way of life. Every financial institution will close their account, and they will be denied entry to every desireable area in the world. While asset freezes and travel bans don’t constitute real justice for pre-meditated murder, they’re a lot better than total impunity.

Well said. If the Turks provide the proof, this looks like an appropriate sanction.

[Cross-posted at The Jury Talks Back.]

363 Responses to “Report: Audio Proof Exists That Saudis Tortured, Dismembered, and Beheaded Khashoggi”

  1. Khashoggi argues that Islamism may be inherent in democracy in Islamic societies; I don’t agree, but I also don’t consider that view to be a thoughtcrime for which the appropriate sentence is beheading and dismemberment.

    Even if you want to argue that Islamism is this really horrible cancer that needs to be eradicated. Saudi Arabia is hardly the nation to lead the way in that regard.

    JVW (42615e)

  2. By the way, this is pretty much an acknowledgement that Turkey has the Saudi embassy entirely bugged, perhaps even with video, right?

    JVW (42615e)

  3. Does this come under the expanded Magnitsky Act?

    nk (dbc370)

  4. Except the daily Sabah reporter admits there os no recording, in other venues aktay erdogan mouthpiece suggested there was no there there.

    Narciso (d1f714)

  5. By the way, this is pretty much an acknowledgement that Turkey has the Saudi embassy entirely bugged, perhaps even with video, right?

    Probably agents working in there, too.

    nk (dbc370)

  6. Well you know how many grey wolves erdogan found virtually none but with gulens helped he turned turkey in a jail.

    Narciso (d1f714)

  7. This is a thoughtful and informative post, Patterico. Thank you for it.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  8. Release the evidence to Wikileaks.

    Dejectedhead (cc65f5)

  9. Now bin Farhan actually suggested a coup months ago, I mean succession event from his exile in germany.

    Narciso (d1f714)

  10. Here’s the thing. This is Turkey’s baby. When Turkey declares the Saudi consular employees persona non grata, expels them from Turkey, and closes down the consulate, then we can see to what degree, if any, there’s a violation of American law and whether we should do something about it.

    As I understand it, Mr. Khashoggi was not even a green card? He worked for the Washington Post on a temporary foreign workers visa?

    nk (dbc370)

  11. There was dark news about the consul being sent to Riyadh as were alleged communications with the post by khashoggi family members.

    Narciso (d1f714)

  12. you can’t trust turks especially dirty erdogan ones they’re genocidal and weird

    and they lie

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  13. “I don’t agree with this point of view“

    I’ve read that could be a problem for you over there.

    Colonel Haiku (43fb26)

  14. UPDATE: The Washington Post has published Khashoggi’s last column. An editor’s note says:

    A note from Karen Attiah, Global Opinions editor

    I received this column from Jamal Khashoggi’s translator and assistant the day after Jamal was reported missing in Istanbul. The Post held off publishing it because we hoped Jamal would come back to us so that he and I could edit it together. Now I have to accept: That is not going to happen. This is the last piece of his I will edit for The Post. This column perfectly captures his commitment and passion for freedom in the Arab world. A freedom he apparently gave his life for. I will be forever grateful he chose The Post as his final journalistic home one year ago and gave us the chance to work together.

    Quotable from the column:

    My dear friend, the prominent Saudi writer Saleh al-Shehi, wrote one of the most famous columns ever published in the Saudi press. He unfortunately is now serving an unwarranted five-year prison sentence for supposed comments contrary to the Saudi establishment. The Egyptian government’s seizure of the entire print run of a newspaper, al-Masry al Youm, did not enrage or provoke a reaction from colleagues. These actions no longer carry the consequence of a backlash from the international community. Instead, these actions may trigger condemnation quickly followed by silence.

    As a result, Arab governments have been given free rein to continue silencing the media at an increasing rate. There was a time when journalists believed the Internet would liberate information from the censorship and control associated with print media. But these governments, whose very existence relies on the control of information, have aggressively blocked the Internet. They have also arrested local reporters and pressured advertisers to harm the revenue of specific publications.

    Condemnation, quickly followed by silence.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  15. Well, there’s more reason than that not to trust them, happyfeet.

    In August, just two months ago, we sanctioned Turkish Justice Minister Abdulhamit Gül and Interior Minister Suleyman Soylu, under the Magnitsky Act, for the detention of Andrew Brunson, the pastor. This could be Turkey doing a little embarrassment back.

    nk (dbc370)

  16. Turkey still denies their genocide against the Armenian people.

    Colonel Haiku (43fb26)

  17. I’ve read that could be a problem for you over there.

    Seems like the bigger problem is criticizing the Saudi government.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  18. Somewhere between 1M and 1.5M people slaughtered by the Turks…

    Colonel Haiku (43fb26)

  19. If the evidence exists to support this, I’d like to see (and hear) it. Until then, I’m actually rather pleased that Trump isn’t screaming and leaping at the first claims of the government of the Mussolini of Ankara. If better alternatives existed, I’d just as soon see the SOBs in charge of both of those nations exiled to await the contempt of future generations.

    M Scott Eiland (b16b32)

  20. They call it the itijihad, the cleansing, they provided sanctuary for Islamic State in the early going, you know what they say about scorpions and how erdogan described democracy.

    Narciso (d1f714)

  21. Does this come under the expanded Magnitsky Act?

    Yes.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  22. This IS Turkey’s baby. Who can be surprised that a nation that oppresses women, mutilates, hangs or beheads people for alleged activities that – in some cases – would barely raise an eyebrow in the Western world would do something like this to a
    despised dissident?

    Colonel Haiku (43fb26)

  23. Not just the Saudi government, Patterico. A number of them.

    Colonel Haiku (43fb26)

  24. UPDATE x2: To answer the question of commenter nk: yes, this potentially comes within the Global Magnitsky Act, according to no less a personage than Bill Browder himself.

    Now, almost every lawmaker on the Senate Foreign Relations committee is pushing for the Trump administration to use Global Magnitsky Sanctions on whoever is found responsible for Khashoggi’s disappearance and/or murder. If the Turkish reports are confirmed, then we in the West must act.

    Applying the Global Magnitsky Act to Saudi officials would be particularly powerful. These officials are extremely rich, and they keep their money all over the world. They have bank accounts in every major financial capital, and they own luxury properties in London, Paris, and New York.

    The moment that a person is added to a Magnitsky List in the West, it destroys their way of life. Every financial institution will close their account, and they will be denied entry to every desireable area in the world. While asset freezes and travel bans don’t constitute real justice for pre-meditated murder, they’re a lot better than total impunity.

    Well said. If the Turks provide the proof, this looks like an appropriate sanction.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  25. This IS Turkey’s baby. Who can be surprised that a nation that oppresses women, mutilates, hangs or beheads people for alleged activities that – in some cases – would barely raise an eyebrow in the Western world would do something like this to a despised dissident?

    You seem far less concerned than the word “unsurprised” would convey.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  26. “Even if you want to argue that Islamism is this really horrible cancer that needs to be eradicated. Saudi Arabia is hardly the nation to lead the way in that regard.”

    Nor is the Muslim Brotherhood the transnational organization to lead the way, it’s to the right of the current ruling Saudi elite in most respects no matter what Khashoggi himself writes in between serving as the go-between for whatever ‘moderate’ rebels are the acceptably fundable opposition party of the day.

    “The eradication of the Muslim Brotherhood is nothing less than an abolition of democracy and a guarantee that Arabs will continue living under authoritarian and corrupt regimes.”

    You could have said exactly the same for Wahhabism, Al-Qaeda (literally ‘the DATAbase’), Hezbollah, or Hamas! Populist Islam is ISLAMIC in character and has all of its attendant faults! (It’s also popular, and the last people you should consult on which group to support are the ones that publishes all their position papers in English.)

    “At this point, the problem is the guy who ordered the gruesome murder, and those who defend him by spouting Saudi propaganda.”

    Khashoggi was also literally a Saudi propagandist…for the now-deposed Prince Al-Waleed. What we have here is simply a Third World intelligence failure-Khashoggi was lucky enough to have warring princes that can’t do their wetwork as professionally and deniably as the ops that may or may not have been done on the Vince Fosters, Andrew Breitbarts, or Seth Rich’s of the world(did any truly get the near unanimous media and judicial hearing that Khashoggi currently gets?)

    And I prefer older devils whose tricks we all know to younger up-and-coming ones in Ankara moving for EU membership who want the new title of The Real Moderate Muslims Worthy of Western Largesse and Moral Authority This Time, we may have bugged THOSE people, but we’d never bug YOU, honest!

    Trump is responding to these shameless born-yesterday moral scolds with properly realpolitik answers under classical international law (‘not our citizen’), which is exactly how our foreign policy needs to be after 16 years of the Infinite International US Moral Authority Budget of Bush and Obama, which was in fact one of the primary contributors to the massive deficits you claim to hate.

    But if you really do want to punish Saudi Arabia and indeed general political Islamic brutality thoroughly and completely, I would strongly recommend pushing for Trump’s old Muslim ban, which would handily send a message to both Mecca’s bloody caretakers and Ankara’s sleazy opportunists that we see the endemic problem beyond the politics of the day, and are willing to morally lead the world in cutting Dar-al-Islam off until it chooses to behave itself.

    This would, of course, require a level of thoroughly principled moral seriousness and dedication to the interests of America specifically that the old Clinton/Bush/Obama crew were never really quite capable of, sadly, so I expect the actual result is that the story ends up getting eventually sidelined and buried, hopefully at least with a much higher pricetag than the typical [s]sand[/s]snow-job and promises of more Saudi concessions later. Blood money is still money!

    Pencil-Necked Pundit (cb5d31)

  27. As I understand it, Mr. Khashoggi was not even a green card? He worked for the Washington Post on a temporary foreign workers visa?

    You are misinformed, he was a legal permanent resident, inaccurately described as a Green Card, since it’s not green any longer, its more of a teal and red card now.

    Permanent residency is an interesting immigration status. Under federal law, immigrants who are in the U.S. as permanent residents enjoy many of the same benefits and freedoms as U.S. citizens. Permanent residents are also protected under the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which states that they have the right to be free from discrimination based on their race, ethnicity, and national origin — in employment, education, health care, housing, and other settings.

    Colonel Klink (6e8caf)

  28. This story doesn’t hold water. Even if cellphones worked this way, is it plausible that a professional assassination squad would forget to turn off their target’s cellphone? If the sole evidence is audio surveillance have the Turks cobbled something together from their vast archive of prison interrogation tapes after abducting Kashoggi themselves? Are the Saudis this stupid as to inflame world opinion against them. And the girlfriend was waiting right outside…they didnt notice? Would Erdogan benefit from driving a wedge between Trump and MBS? Was Kashoggi a double agent, or did the Turks sacrifice him like a pawn on a chessboard?

    JohnnyD (f7ba3d)

  29. You are misinformed, he was a legal permanent resident

    How do you know this? As I understand it, he “fled” Saudi Arabia in 2017 after having lived there for decades, and “relocated” to the United States.

    But he was a connected guy. In addition to his relationship with al-Waleed, he is the nephew of Adnan Kashoggi, the Iran-Contra arms dealer.

    nk (dbc370)

  30. “You seem far less concerned than the word “unsurprised” would convey.“

    If it’s proven to be true, what then? This is something that begs for some truth, what really happened? Who benefits? Who was this fellow tight with? what circles did he run in?

    I have far more concern for young men killing each other and innocent bystanders in Chicago and other metro areas than I’ll ever have about this.

    Colonel Haiku (43fb26)

  31. In so far there is no apparent evidence, it looks like what the counselor for the entertainment entrepreneur coughed up,

    Narciso (d1f714)

  32. This story doesn’t hold water. Even if cellphones worked this way, is it plausible that a professional assassination squad would forget to turn off their target’s cellphone? If the sole evidence is audio surveillance have the Turks cobbled something together from their vast archive of prison interrogation tapes after abducting Kashoggi themselves? Are the Saudis this stupid as to inflame world opinion against them. And the girlfriend was waiting right outside…they didnt notice? Would Erdogan benefit from driving a wedge between Trump and MBS? Was Kashoggi a double agent, or did the Turks sacrifice him like a pawn on a chessboard?

    Let’s see,
    1) His phone was outside with his fiance, he had the recording app on his Apple Watch.

    2)Did the Saudi’s screw up, about 30 different ways, before he even walked in the door. Are they incompetent, in most ways, their intelligence service is not a meritocracy. They didn’t bother to turn off the traffic camera by the front door, so paying attention to details is not their strong suit.

    Colonel Klink (6e8caf)

  33. So we’re told, of course turning off the cameras would raise suspicions (see rules of engagement) of course you have reporters like this same David kirkpatrick not looking at a tape for 5 1/2 years (The feed from the benghazi compound) yes the Hamas enabler the one who shut down uae strikes against militants in eastern libya.

    Narciso (d1f714)

  34. Of course Chris Stevens just died coughing and mutilated by a gang of roving post modern film critics, that began on American soil.

    Narciso (d1f714)

  35. Of course I’ve mentioned the lambrakis incident, that happened when Greece was a democracy, now the Oswaldo paya murder, you probably can’t find 1/10,000 people who know about, but Google seems fine to partner with thsm.

    Narciso (d1f714)

  36. If it’s proven to be true, what then? This is something that begs for some truth, what really happened? Who benefits? Who was this fellow tight with? what circles did he run in?

    I have far more concern for young men killing each other and innocent bystanders in Chicago and other metro areas than I’ll ever have about this.

    OK

    Patterico (115b1f)

  37. I have far more concern for young men killing each other and innocent bystanders in Chicago and other metro areas than I’ll ever have about this.

    Sure, because it is much better to just ignore the wider world, international relations, etc. It’s not like thousands of American’s have paid the ultimate price, and are currently fighting, in the Middle East. So yeah, if it’s not happening outside your front door, I’m sure it’s fine.

    Colonel Klink (6e8caf)

  38. If things actually went down as the Turks seem to be claiming they did, then I have to conclude that the Saudis–or a faction of the Saudis–wanted it known and were only engaging in a minimal amount of obfuscation so as not to outright admit it. If so, then it will definitely be appropriate to come down hard on the Saudis over it. But–again–the source of information here is another loathsome government which has very obvious reasons for wanting to damage the Saudis. Definitely time to pump the brakes before doing anything irrevocable here.

    M Scott Eiland (b16b32)

  39. “So yeah, if it’s not happening outside your front door, I’m sure it’s fine.”

    Thanks, that means a great deal to me.

    Colonel Haiku (43fb26)

  40. Do the Turks have motive to make up or at least obfuscate the story, does Qatar which way do they lean?

    Narciso (d1f714)

  41. Too bad a Bush isn’t around to yank the Saudi chain. Or, was that the other way around?

    Munroe (14a24e)

  42. I know, right? The Kushner family to lose tens of billions of dollars in Saudi construction contracts and arms deals rakeoffs over the murder of one guy? What are we thinking? Who’s going to feed Ivanka’s kids, eh?

    If you want to play that game.

    nk (dbc370)

  43. In any case, the best informative treatment of the issues surrounding his death still appears to be this Spectator article:

    In many respects, bin Salman’s regime has been revolutionary: he has let women drive, sided with Israel against Iran and curtailed the religious police. When Boris Johnson was foreign secretary, he said that bin Salman was the best thing to happen to the region in at least a decade, that the style of government of this 33-year-old prince was utterly different. But the cruelty and the bloodletting have not stopped. Saudi Arabia still carries out many public beheadings and other draconian corporal punishments. It continues to wage a war in Yemen which has killed at least 10,000 civilians…

    …The fate of Khashoggi has at least provoked global outrage, but it’s for all the wrong reasons. We are told he was a liberal, Saudi progressive voice fighting for freedom and democracy, and a martyr who paid the ultimate price for telling the truth to power. This is not just wrong, but distracts us from understanding what the incident tells us about the internal power dynamics of a kingdom going through an unprecedented period of upheaval. It is also the story of how one man got entangled in a Saudi ruling family that operates like the Mafia. Once you join, it’s for life, and if you try to leave, you become disposable…

    …In truth, Khashoggi never had much time for western-style pluralistic democracy. In the 1970s he joined the Muslim Brotherhood, which exists to rid the Islamic world of western influence. He was a political Islamist until the end, recently praising the Muslim Brotherhood in the Washington Post. He championed the ‘moderate’ Islamist opposition in Syria, whose crimes against humanity are a matter of record. Khashoggi frequently sugarcoated his Islamist beliefs with constant references to freedom and democracy. But he never hid that he was in favour of a Muslim Brotherhood arc throughout the Middle East. His recurring plea to bin Salman in his columns was to embrace not western-style democracy, but the rise of political Islam which the Arab Spring had inadvertently given rise to. For Khashoggi, secularism was the enemy…

    …It was Yasin Aktay — a former MP for Turkey’s ruling Justice and Development party (AKP) — whom Khashoggi told his fiancée to call if he did not emerge from the consulate. The AKP is, in effect, the Turkish branch of the Muslim Brotherhood. His most trusted friend, then, was an adviser to President Erdogan, who is fast becoming known as the most vicious persecutor of journalists on earth. Khashoggi never meaningfully criticised Erdogan. So we ought not to see this as the assassination of a liberal reformer.

    I also took the liberty of actually reading Khashoogi’s last article to the very end:

    The Arab world needs a modern version of the old transnational media so citizens can be informed about global events. More important, we need to provide a platform for Arab voices. We suffer from poverty, mismanagement and poor education. Through the creation of an independent international forum, isolated from the influence of nationalist governments spreading hate through propaganda, ordinary people in the Arab world would be able to address the structural problems their societies face.

    An independent pan-Arabic ‘base’ or ‘brotherhood’, if you will, independent of petty concerns of nationhood, rulership, and sovereignty, which will totally work better than the last six or seven times it was tried and not get mysteriously overtaken by international Islamic extremists!

    It’s all so tiresome.

    Pencil-Necked Pundit (3c6a01)

  44. I have a very hard time caring what foreign governments do to foreign citizens in foreign countries. This could have been shown on live TV and all I would do is change the channel. I equally dislike virtue signalling, which is all I see any US action on this matter being. As I see things the sole interest of the US government should be the security and prosperity of US citizens.

    Soronel Haetir (86a46e)

  45. I’d say Bradley and Greenfield probably exaggerated some elements, frantzman profile was closer to the truth, he thought political Islam could be redeemed, that’s the project that Assisi

    Narciso (d1f714)

  46. If you want to play that game.
    nk (dbc370) — 10/17/2018 @ 9:17 pm

    Yeah, I’ll play. How many lives lost in that war started by Kushner?

    Munroe (8c1fb6)

  47. Even if you want to argue that Islamism is this really horrible cancer that needs to be eradicated. Saudi Arabia is hardly the nation to lead the way in that regard.

    On the contrary. If we want Saudi Arabia to reform, this is exactly the sort of thing it has to do, and we have to let it. The Brotherhood must be suppressed, and yes, that means democracy can’t be allowed to raise its head, because when it does we get the Brotherhood, as we saw in Egypt. Also look at what happened to the Shah and to Iran when Carter pressured him to soften up on his opposition. We want the Saudis to reform, but to do so without losing their kingdom and their heads they can’t be soft.

    The same applies to the war in Yemen. I don’t understand; do you want Iran to control Yemen or do you not? If you do not, then the Houthis must be put down, so why are you giving the Saudis grief for doing it? Even if they are doing things in that war that we wouldn’t do ourselves, so what? Should we not have supported Stalin in WW2?! And that was a close call; had circumstances been different we could just as easily allied with Hitler against Stalin instead of vice versa. Here the call is much easier. The Saudis are fighting our enemies, therefore they are fighting for us, and we should get out of their way.

    milhouse (a81aba)

  48. Bottom line: if Khashoggi was a Brotherhood operative, working to undo the current Saudi regime’s reforms, then he needed killing. And governments do this. Ours certainly does, and we’re happy to have it do so. Aren’t we? Or do you think the CIA should renounce wetwork?

    milhouse (a81aba)

  49. Since I often use czarist references it’s close to Alexander 11 if Nicholas 1st had servers as king,

    Narciso (d1f714)

  50. Now if the kingdom were to fracture, heck that could never happen right, one of the details is,where the oil is on the gulf and red sea coast’s which happen to have significant Shia populace has a and hejaz

    Narciso (d1f714)

  51. How many lives lost in that war started by Kushner?

    I’ll tell you in seventeen years.

    nk (dbc370)

  52. I would the dang fool thing Graham and corker were pondering was this kind of stupid provocation.

    Narciso (d1f714)

  53. Another thing: The fact that Erdoğan is so upset about this should give us reason not to get upset.

    milhouse (a81aba)

  54. Huh. Testing Ğ ğ ǵ ĝ Ģ ġ

    milhouse (a81aba)

  55. How about é è < > &

    milhouse (a81aba)

  56. Strange. The previewer knows about the G entities, but whatever is parsing comments before storing them is recognizing most entities but not the G ones.

    milhouse (a81aba)

  57. How many lives lost in that war started by Kushner?

    It saddens me to see these left-wing/jihadist talking points repeated as if they had any truth to them.

    President Bush did not “start” the 2003 Iraq war. Iraq had obligations after their defeat in the first Gulf War (started by them) and were in violation of those obligations and others imposed by 17 UN resolutions. These resolutions included provisions for enforcement by “all means necessary,” understood by all as diplomatic language for military force.

    Iraq had been violating the no-fly zone and shooting at American planes who were enforcing it. They were hosting terrorist leaders and training camps. They had been found to be violating trade restrictions flagrantly. They refused to allow unfettered inspections to verify that they were meeting their obligations with respect to chemical, nuclear and biological weapons, and indeed, although invading US forces found no large stockpiles of WMD, they found countless pieces of forbidden equipment and related research programs in violation of Iraq’s obligations.

    It’s true that President Bush could have turned a blind eye to Iraq’s violations of the terms of its surrender in the Gulf War. That’s what Britain and France did when Germany violated similar treaty obligations in the 1930s, after all. While Hussein was not Hitler, he was nevertheless a threat to our country’s security that we had good reason and every justification to extirpate. Hussein bears sole moral responsibility for violating his obligations and precipitating the war.

    President Bush made the right decision given the imperfect information he had, and the world is a safer and better place as a result. Multiple investigations found no evidence that intelligence reports were intentionally falsified, or that anyone in the administration knew that Iraq had no large WMD stockpiles despite claiming otherwise. At various points in the late 1990s (before Bush was even in office), and after 9/11, Bill Clinton, Hillary Clinton, John Kerry and even Vladimir Putin, among others, stated publicly that they, too, believed Hussein had hidden WMD stockpiles. That is a rather unlikely set of co-conspirators.

    Moreover, if the Bush administration knew in advance that no WMD would be found, and somehow managed to conceal this knowledge, it would have been easy, in comparison, and solved innumerable political problems, to manufacture the missing evidence, perhaps with help from a sympathetic ally like Israel. But they didn’t.

    Dave (9664fc)

  58. Mr. milhouse hello nice to see you

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  59. Part of what I was referring to last night:

    https://mobile.twitter.com/omriceren/status/1052640143130157057

    Narciso (d1f714)

  60. and then all the saudis tried to do rape on Christine Ford but Mike Pompeo jumped on the bed and she got away the end

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  61. But if you really do want to punish Saudi Arabia and indeed general political Islamic brutality thoroughly and completely, I would strongly recommend pushing for Trump’s old Muslim ban, which would handily send a message to both Mecca’s bloody caretakers and Ankara’s sleazy opportunists that we see the endemic problem beyond the politics of the day, and are willing to morally lead the world in cutting Dar-al-Islam off until it chooses to behave itself.

    I do like that the posters here just let this dumb idea wither on the wine. Salud to your collective patience.

    JP (00dabf)

  62. Even if you want to argue that Islamism is this really horrible cancer that needs to be eradicated. Saudi Arabia is hardly the nation to lead the way in that regard.

    On the contrary. If we want Saudi Arabia to reform, this is exactly the sort of thing it has to do, and we have to let it. The Brotherhood must be suppressed, and yes, that means democracy can’t be allowed to raise its head, because when it does we get the Brotherhood, as we saw in Egypt. Also look at what happened to the Shah and to Iran when Carter pressured him to soften up on his opposition. We want the Saudis to reform, but to do so without losing their kingdom and their heads they can’t be soft.

    The same applies to the war in Yemen. I don’t understand; do you want Iran to control Yemen or do you not? If you do not, then the Houthis must be put down, so why are you giving the Saudis grief for doing it? Even if they are doing things in that war that we wouldn’t do ourselves, so what? Should we not have supported Stalin in WW2?! And that was a close call; had circumstances been different we could just as easily allied with Hitler against Stalin instead of vice versa. Here the call is much easier. The Saudis are fighting our enemies, therefore they are fighting for us, and we should get out of their way.

    . . . .

    Bottom line: if Khashoggi was a Brotherhood operative, working to undo the current Saudi regime’s reforms, then he needed killing. And governments do this. Ours certainly does, and we’re happy to have it do so. Aren’t we? Or do you think the CIA should renounce wetwork?

    These are two of the craziest comments I have ever read from a long-time commenter. To explain how crazy they are would take a post I don’t have time to write now. I’ll concentrate on two things:

    1. “had circumstances been different we could just as easily allied with Hitler against Stalin instead of vice versa” — Yeah, like if Hitler had done everything Stalin did, and Stalin had done everything Hitler did. Failing that, um no.

    2. “if Khashoggi was a Brotherhood operative, working to undo the current Saudi regime’s reforms, then he needed killing.” — First of all, what evidence do you have that he was “working to undo the current Saudi regime’s reforms”???? His numerous public columns supporting those reforms? This is like your “we could have supported Hitler under different circumstances” argument: a fanciful hypothetical without grounding in the real world.

    As for Khashoggi being a “Brotherhood operative” please specify what that means, with detail, including quotes and links. Khashoggi has certainly said things I don’t support, like comparing 9/11 to Palestinians’ daily life in 2011. (So behead him!) But the best evidence of his being a Brotherhood “operative” is his support of political Islamism and of the Brotherhood in that context, as quoted in this post. And that is an opinion mixed in with loads of opinions in favor of pluralism, women’s rights, and the like.

    This is a war of ideas. Not every imperfect Muslim is the enemy. Ayaan Hirsi Ali once attended Muslim Brotherhood meetings. I care about what she says now. Maajid Nawaz was once a political revolutionary Islamist. I care about what he says now. Jamal Khashoggi had opinions about the Muslim Brotherhood and Islamism that I disagreed with. But I support his articulation of many Western ideas in the pages of the WaPo for the past year.

    You’d think a guy so taken with realpolitik that he’d pose the hypo of an alliance with Hitler would be able to comprehend the benefits of working with Muslims who support Western ideas even if their embrace of those ideas is less than fully complete.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  63. “Erdogan is a bad hombre so believe his security apparatus at your own intellectual peril. The political backdrop of this ‘scandal’ is Iran/Turkey/Qatar vs U.S./Israel/Saudi Arabia, guess which side the media is on? Ben Rhodes’ echo chamber is alive and kickin’. Always remember how the media is helping this story along.”

    this is just so well put

    nice work

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  64. It’s curious that the Turks haven’t released any verification yet. Assuming it exists, I wonder if Ankara is letting Riyadh get its story straight on all this.

    I mean, I doubt they would be shy about providing blood-curdling evidence, or that the Saudi government would be incapable of this kind of brutality.

    JP (00dabf)

  65. 62. The only Muslims I have known to support Western ideas are ex-muslims. Hirsi-Ali being one of them (she’s a professing atheist now).

    Islam is fundamentally incompatiable with western values. Everything we hold dear here, such as religious freedom and the fundamental rights of life and property, is in direct opposition to everything that Saudi Arabia stands for as an Islamic Republic. After all this, why we remain allied with them is absolutely beyond me, aside from the fact that the “Saudi royal family” is itself little more than a western construct.

    Gryph (08c844)

  66. turks need soap

    they sweat a lot and eat too many cookies

    and then they go all gladys kravitz on your embassy

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  67. I think it’s clear that khashoggi wanted an Islamist regime, like Hamas or morsi’s Egypt or the Algerians just by way of the vote, whether it would be one time, like erdogan has suggested it’s unclear, Qatar btw the way has not even attempted this reform, and the evidence of this is clear in many places.

    Narciso (698fbd)

  68. Khashoggi is not on trial. He didn’t even get a trial. If the Saudis had tried him and beheaded him in Saudi Arabia, then we could say “Meh, the sun rose in the East again”. We are talking about the act of murder in a consulate. Pretend it was a U.S. citizen who was “wet-worked” by the CIA in the American consulate in Istanbul when he went in to get his divorce certified. Would it be a crime?

    nk (dbc370)

  69. 68. I don’t think you have to go that far in the comparison; killing without benefit of due process says it all.

    Gryph (08c844)

  70. On the very day Khashoggi was disappeared or made subject to croakiffication, it’s possible that 5K people were killed for political reasons across the Middle East.

    Colonel Haiku (43fb26)

  71. KEEP

    CALM

    &

    SAUDI

    ON

    that’s what posh and becks would say

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  72. But still, I’m annoyed that the #FakeNews media is trying to make this a millstone around Trump’s neck. It’s Turkey which needs to take the lead. It’s their territory and it was their sovereignity which was violated. It’s up to them to prove their case, impose sanctions, and request that we do likewise.

    nk (dbc370)

  73. I don’t care about a mooslum brohoody member. It’s Turkey and Saudi Arabia… Hello, ya, its what they have always done. Now we want to get involved. We wouldn’t do it for Mr. Daniel Pearl, probably because he was Jewish. Our past government officials should be tried for hate crimes against us.

    mg (9e54f8)

  74. So the treasury IG discovered the leakers not the fbi or the doj. WHAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Rufkm.

    mg (9e54f8)

  75. Kashoggi asked the Turks – who seem to have a infiltrated the Saudi consulate rather well – to sneak him out of the consulate and then make up the story that the Saudis had killed him and evaporated his body in acid or diplomatic pouches.

    It was all in an effort to ghost on his fiancee, because he was too chicken to tell her that he didn’t really want to marry her. Getting the Saudis in trouble was just icing on the cake.

    Whether the Turks actually put him into skip-town-to-ditch-the-wedding witness protection or just killed him themselves is still a mystery.

    There is as much actual evidence for my story as there is for the Turks’.

    That the guy is missing is not proof that he’s dead.

    That the Turks have an audio of someone screaming… well, I have audio of a bunch of women screaming as though they were being burned alive. It came from the Kavanaugh hearings, and I use it to lull myself to sleep.

    Other than that, I’m totally on board with #BelieveAllTurks.

    Troll Feeder (fce9a5)

  76. This is coming from a govt that put 900 journalists in prison, who accused a pastor of being part of acoup d etat.

    Narciso (d1f714)

  77. The first “stringless” bean was bred in 1894 by Calvin Keeney, called the “father of the stringless bean”, while working in Le Roy, New York.

    guess what else was invented in Le Roy?

    Jell-O!!

    green beans and jello that’s not nothing even if Kevin Williamson wants everyone there to die in a fire

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  78. And the rinos caved on Benghazi. They should’ve went ballistic instead they went limp, as usual.
    We have too many sh!t holes in congress.

    mg (9e54f8)

  79. We are talking about the act of murder in a consulate.

    It is… Was? … One of the major ostensible differences between the goons in Tehran and the goons in Riyadh.

    The Saudis generally respected the Westphalian notion of state diplomacy and made a point of not laying siege to embassies and the like, and while they have always been awful towards dissidents locally they did not hunt them down abroad (or at least not in such a spectacular fashion?).

    I suppose the counter to that might be “well they may have murdered/disappeared him in their own consulate”. Which is the kind of thing you might have expected from the Soviets, or the East Germans. Or today probably the Chinese.

    JP (00dabf)

  80. mg, those hunts by Gowdy, Nunes, Issa et al were for pelts to be exchanged for Grahamnesty, so maybe in the greater scheme its just as well.

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  81. A reminder:

    https://mobile.twitter.com/nntaleb/status/1052917419398877184

    Yes the assassination of an American ambassador and the three brave men who died defending him, a speed bump, and this same times reporter bought the cover story

    Narciso (d1f714)

  82. @Patterico – Slightly sloppy comparison between Hitler and Stalin – but remember prior to WW2 and the concentration camps, the debate was which country was more of a threat to Western democracy; Hitler was a murderous scoundrel (Burning of the Reischstag, Kristalnacht and the Night of the Long Knives) but he wasn’t anything on the scale of Lenin and Stalin at that point. The problem with the political Islamists in my opinion is they are very good at talking about the need for democracy, etc but when democracy ushers them into power, they magically stop believing in democracy, rule of law, tolerance etc. Erdogan is and was a political Islamist who used the democratic institutions of his country and demagoguery to provide him with near complete control of Turkey and then he starts acting like a dictator. Khashoggi may have mouthed the right platitudes in the pages of the Washington Post for the past year, but it’s the sum of what he has said in his whole life that makes me believe he was illiberal in his political goals.

    CygnusAnalogMan (9c66ec)

  83. Saudi Arabia is an absolute monarchy. If the King orders a subject killed while on Saudi soil, is it murder? Or just one of the reasons why absolute monarchies are terrible places to live?

    Kevin M (d6cbf1)

  84. It may very well be, under Sharia law. The princeling might have to pay indemnity to Khashoggi’s family. Anyhow, the law we care about is the Global Magnitsky Act.

    nk (dbc370)

  85. stalin, had a large network through the communist party, which involved media entertainment and unions, who were against hitler until 1939, neutral until 1941, and then against after 41, taleb doesn’t have any love for the Saudis, as the rest of the thread proves, but he’s not buying the saint khashoggi narrative either,

    narciso (d1f714)

  86. JP – look what the Chinese did to the head of Interpol – disappearing him into their jail system once he came home for a visit. Correct me if I’m wrong- strictly legally speaking, the Saudi’s did nothing illegal if they did in fact murder Khashoggi inside the consulate as that is considered Saudi sovereign territory. Politically and morally speaking, it could be considered a possible war crime if you can prove it did happen.

    CygnusAnalogMan (9c66ec)

  87. The Chinese head of Interpol did not come home for a visit — he lives in China and is a high-ranking official in its police services, like a deputy director of the FBI or Homeland Security or similar. The Interpol has a history of corrupt thugs as its head. During WWII, they were high-ranking Nazis, among them SS generals and Holocaust orchestrators Reinhardt Heydrich and Arthur Nebe.

    nk (dbc370)

  88. @ NK – he was in France because Interpol is based in Lyon, France. A quick Google search would verify that…

    CygnusAnalogMan (9c66ec)

  89. “Ayaan Hirsi Ali once attended Muslim Brotherhood meetings. I care about what she says now. Maajid Nawaz was once a political revolutionary Islamist. I care about what he says now. Jamal Khashoggi had opinions about the Muslim Brotherhood and Islamism that I disagreed with. But I support his articulation of many Western ideas in the pages of the WaPo for the past year.”

    Western ideas like…Arab Wikileaks!

    The Arab world needs a modern version of the old transnational media so citizens can be informed about global events. More important, we need to provide a platform for Arab voices. We suffer from poverty, mismanagement and poor education. Through the creation of an independent international forum, isolated from the influence of nationalist governments spreading hate through propaganda, ordinary people in the Arab world would be able to address the structural problems their societies face.

    “Hey guys, Osama bin Laden’s old pal wants to found an international independent platform for ‘Arab voices’ so that he can shape the debate himself without any of those meddlesome Saudi princes concerned about ‘lands’ and ‘families’ and ‘posterity’ and ‘civil society in a highly tribal culture’ who actually live and maintain families in those countries and thus have skin in the game. This totally won’t attract international terrorists and national elements keenly interested in false-flagging other nations with manufactured events, like the OPEC cartel, the state of Afghanistan, the ISIS organization, or the Palestinian Authority.”

    “You’d think a guy so taken with realpolitik that he’d pose the hypo of an alliance with Hitler would be able to comprehend the benefits of working with Muslims who support Western ideas even if their embrace of those ideas is less than fully complete.”

    An ‘incomplete Western idea’ usually turns out to be “ISIS with a stolen US database of Iraqi soldier names and locations” or “Mujahadeen with Stinger missiles” or “open-air Libyan slave markets-NOW WITH LOCAL SOCIAL NETWORKS!” These people are simply not reliably influenced by anything outside of themselves except to use them as tools for their own ends.

    Three decades of this failed Friedmanesque real pan-Arabism has never been tried is enough. Let their dictators who live there dictate as they please, let us close our borders to their insane asylum societies, and let whatever journalists that don’t live there who want to risk their lives by going there risk them. We will spend treasure for oil and blood for none of them. No one mourns the death of Trotsky except Communists.

    Pencil-Necked Pundit (a9a339)

  90. In any case, since all the recovering neocons are backsliding into their old Commie internationalist habits and pretending that the last 16 years didn’t happen (understandable,) let’s take a moment to look at what actual concern for your people, (you know, the ones whose fates you might be directly responsible for, and you might have residually instinctual care for because you look like them, meet them on a daily basis, share their families, and share their thinking and experiences) looks like:

    President Trump plans to withdraw from a 144-year-old postal treaty that has allowed Chinese companies to ship small packages to the United States at a steeply discounted rate, undercutting American competitors and flooding the market with cheap consumer goods.

    Yes, you read that right, the Post Office subsidized Chinese shipping for ONE HUNDRED AND FOURTY-FOUR YEARS! Were any previous Presidents even trying to help America? I guess Reagan was too caught up in beating the USSR, but what excuse do the others have?

    Pencil-Necked Pundit (ff4e19)

  91. 86. … Correct me if I’m wrong- strictly legally speaking, the Saudi’s did nothing illegal if they did in fact murder Khashoggi inside the consulate as that is considered Saudi sovereign territory.

    Hey Cygnus – I’m not a legal big timer but would think that by definition if he was murdered the act would be illegal, whether under Turkish, Saudi, or international law.

    JP (00dabf)

  92. The bad or negative news about Jamal Khashoggi: Khashoggi joined the Moslem Brotherhood in the 1970s, but he wasn’t really a supporter now, although both members of the Moslem Brotherhood and genuine democrats thought he was one of them He was really tilting toward supporting democracy and his approach toward the Moslem Brotherhood was that they should only try to win power through elections.

    He went to high school with Osama bin Laden and was the Saudi liaison to him in the 1990s, at which time he worked for Prince Turki bin Faisal, who was the Director of Saudi Arabia’s General Intelligence Directorate for almost 25 years until he was abruptly fired 10 days before the September 11, 2001 attacks (and 8 days before the assassination of the head of the Northern Alliance in Afghanistan) . Prince Turki also used to visit Afghanistan. The story put out was that he was promising to coax Osama bin Laden to go back to Saudi Arabia.

    Which brings forth the thought that, while the murder of Jamal Khashoggi was not a rogue operation, the September 11, 2001 attacks may have been, and that Prince Mohammad bin Salman may have been afraid that Khashoggi might reveal that. If so they are not happy with the idea of admitting to rogue operations. With Khashoggi they apparently are thinking of blaming a low ranking general.

    The Sept 11 attacks may have been a rogue operation (I mean, after all, clerics based in Saudi Arabia recruited most of the hijackers for a suicide mission and there have been dismissed court cases about this) that the more responsible Saudi officials got wind of and tried to stop before it happened but without telling the United States but they didn’t know enough about what was being planned to stop it in time, and probably thought they had more time.

    At that time, members of the royal family had pretty much blanket immunity for anything they did to people who were not members of the royal family. They could be fired from important positions but that’s it. King Ibn Saud,[ the first monarch and founder of Saudi Arabia, who died in 1953, who had killed his brothers, had pretty much laid it down, and successfully that the brothers were not to kill each other. The result however was impunity.

    MbS changed all that in 2017, and two sons of kings are still locked up. So I don’t think this could have been a rogue operation. It might have been Prince Turki – but perhaps more likely someone working for him – because the Sept 11, 2001 attacks were a completely crazy thing for anyone to do. Even if your goal was protecting the Taliban by demonstrating the impotence of the United States.

    Jamal Khashoggi was later on touted as a supporter of violence who had converted. This probably wasn’t true – that he was ever a supporter of violence.

    in 2003 he got fired as editor of Saudi newspaper for running an article that criticized an important Saudi cleric for advocating violence against Muslims. It took 4 years for him to regain the editorship of that newspaper.

    Now of course he saw what happened to many of his friends and he was beginning to organize a whole democracy movement. He had started to found a movement.

    He felt badly when anyone he knew was arrested or ran into trouble. (remember hiss whole coterie had immunity or virtual immunity till MbS came along)

    He even wrote a lament for Osama bin Laden – that he’d gone on the wrong course and so on, given in to anger etc/

    Interestingly, he was so taken by this woman he met in May, and/or so afraid or unhappy about being alone at night that he was planning to move to Turkey, at least for awhile. (his fiance was studying for some sort of a degree)

    He might have been planning something under the sponsorship of the Turkish government.

    Anyway he was moving into becoming a leader of an opposition movement.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  93. 91. Theres a difference between immunity from prosecution and something being legal.

    Murder was and is illegal ZI am sure under Saudi law or under Islamic law.

    Maybe Islamic law can justify a king, or someone with hus authority, ordering someone killed but probably not in secret – and they have an obligation to treat the body respectfully and bury the body, not chop it up and hide the parts.

    Barack Obama tried to comply with Islamic law (to avoid Mosuslim disapaproval) with regard to Osama bin Laden even though he didn’t want to leave a grave and they thought they found something whereby they could bury him at sea.

    BTW the Holocaust was held to be illegal under German law.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  94. 90. That;s maybe to stop them from sending highly concenntrated opiods.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  95. a real moderate, that was just four years ago:

    https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20140720-palestine-the-occupation-and-the-resistance-for-beginners/

    regimes, like henry tudor’s did things for reasons of state, now was khashoggi tyndall, or Cromwell,

    narciso (d1f714)

  96. 91. True, but at least from an ethical standpoint, America’s official policy is to look the other way while the Saudi government murders individuals on a near-daily basis. It’s what they do. Who are we to judge?

    Gryph (5efbad)

  97. Google the list of U.S. businesses, industries, contractors and sub-contractors doing deals w/t Saudis; it’s more than just defense, petroleum and petrochemical corporations. Then add the current geopolitics to the menu. There will be noise from congressional thespians; a story created, a fall guy found, a few months of indignant sanctions– then back to business as usual.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  98. 90. That;s maybe to stop them from sending highly concenntrated opiods.

    No, Sammy, eBay and other U.S. mail-order sellers have been complaining about it for years. It gives Chinese mail order sellers an unfair competitive advantage, they say. And it does.

    nk (dbc370)

  99. there was one fellow, the late waleed juffali, his fancy wedding, cost him a pretty penny, and the divorce even more so, his family were distributors from everything from coca cola to Mercedes benz, he also happened to chip into Hillary campaign, as well as the atlantic council, Scowcroft and recently huntsman’s haunts, he looked kind of like gene simmons, they came up in the hagel confirmation hearing,

    narciso (d1f714)

  100. It’s OK, though, I’m told by the Trumpers, because in his numerous columns advocating democracy, pluralism, women’s rights, free speech, and the like, Khashoggi also wrote one supporting the Muslim Brotherhood.

    Once again you let your Trump-hatred blind you to the facts. It isn’t that Khashoggi wrote one article in the WaPo supporting the Ikhwan. He was a member of the Ikhwan. Supposedly he cut his ties to the Ikhwan when he stopped attending meetings, but he also said that he remained “conversant” in the groups ideology and goals. Essentially, simply by failing to attend meetings doesn’t mean anything the MB has long bragged that it could get more done through associates than with members. This is particularly true in countries like Saudi Arabia where the group is banned as a terrorist organization. Which it is. Hamas is simply the Gazan wing of the MB. Which is why unless you’ve developed amnesia Hillary Clinton had to go to budding President-for-life Morsi and ask him to intervene to stop Hamas from firing thousands of missiles into Israel.

    It’s ridiculous to say that somehow the working with the Ikhwan will lead to democracy in the M.E. Again, had everyone developed amnesia? Once in power there was no way the MB was going to give it up. They were more oppressive than Mubarak. When Egyptians started protesting against Morsi in Tahrir Square MB goons working for Morsi proudly showed the foreign and domestic press their torture chambers where they “made the protesters heads right” about the wonderfulness of the MB. And the reason they were proud to show the world their torture chambers is similar to the reason ISIS/IS was proud to show the world their atrocities. We in the west are not the audience they were trying to reach.

    Is everyone really in favor of working with an organization that, once in power, wanted to rewrite the Egyptian constitution to re-institute the Zuma or Dhimma, a Jim Crow type system that imposed disabilities on non-Muslims so severe that the Dhimmis often had to sell their children into slavery to pay the extremely oppressive Jizya or head tax. Oh, but don’t worry. The Muslim Brotherhood wanted provide religious minorities with the same sort of “relief” they had before the Ottomans abolished the Zumma in the mid 1850s. Their rewrite of the Egyptian constitution would have legalized slavery.

    Seriously, this is the “moderate” group that know-nothings think we should work with because it will somehow lead to some form of Arab Muslim democracy. And I literally mean know-nothings. Morsi’s party’s name translated into English as the Freedom and Justice party. Who could be against freedom and justice, right? They must have been the good guys. This is one of several divinely blessed form of lying permitted and often required by Allah, tauriyya. That’s using double meanings; it’s intended to fool the gullible into thinking that the Muslim is using a word the way a non-Muslim would use it, but in fact the Muslim has an entirely different private meaning. By freedom they meant freedom from man’s law. You know, the kind of law that democratic governments produce. And the justice of Allah’s law, the kind of laws that theocracies produce. Just ask the Iranians how pleasant that is.

    It’s insane to think that the Ikhwan is a group of “mostly secular” moderates, as Clapper so ludicrously put it. The Muslim Brotherhood’s creed is, “God is our objective; the Koran is our law; the Prophet is our leader; jihad is our way; and death for the sake of Allah is the highest of our aspirations.” Some secular organization ya got there, former DNI Clapper.

    Clapper lied to us a lot, in case your amnesia extends to that as well.

    The MB had exactly the same attitude toward democracy as Reccep Erdogan; it’s a street car you ride until you get to your destination, then you get off. Or as the saying about M.E. democracies go, “One man, one vote, one time.” In short, people who hallucinate that working with the MB is the way to moderate the M.E. are cray cray. They are just as radical and violent as any Islamic terror organization. In fact, they are a terror organization. I don’t understand why gullible westerners are fooled by their insincere declarations that the group that assassinated Nassir and Sadat has disavowed violence when Hamas is a member organization in good standing. Since being toppled from power in Egypt and being outlawed the MB have formed a dozen or so violent terrorist organizations. a lot of the violence in Egypt, particularly attacks on Coptic churches, are perpetrated by these Ikhwan-sponsored terror groups.

    Now, almost every lawmaker on the Senate Foreign Relations committee is pushing for the Trump administration to use Global Magnitsky Sanctions on whoever is found responsible for Khashoggi’s disappearance and/or murder.

    Why has there never been a push for the Global Magnitsky Act to be applied to the Mullahcracy of Iran? We can easily link them and their proxies Hezbollah and Hamas to a hell of a lot more murders than this one journalist. Many of those murdered have been American citizens. It’s a rhetorical question. Those murders don’t smear Donald Trump by association. Hence the rabid frothing-at-the-mouth rush to hang Muhammad bin Salman. And by extension DJT. I understand why the Democrats would refuse to act consistently, since DJT is undoing Obama’s legacy, and part of that legacy was to give a tongue bath to the Mullahs and close their eyes to their crimes. What’s your reason, Pat, for wanting to rush ahead and harm America’s national security and undo the realignment in the M.E. at a time when DJT has brought about a realignment in the M.E. brought about by DJT in which Israel, S.A., and Egypt have formed an alliance against Iran. A country that declared war on us in 1979.

    If the Turks provide the proof, this looks like an appropriate sanction.

    Quite remarkable. Erdogan is a tyrant. He’s locked up every journalist in his country who isn’t a propagandist for his regime. And he’s a wanna Pasha of the Ottoman Empire 2.0 who is actively working against our interests. Is your Trump hatred so overwhelming that you’ll trust any evidence he produces? He also hates Prince MBS because the Saudi prince is going the wrong way. The Saudi may not be going fast enough but he’s liberalizing the kingdom at the same time Erdogan is working to make Turkey more of an Irania style theocracy. I’m sure he can come up with the evidence. Lavrentiy Beria always could. As Beria told Stalin, “If you want to convict a man, I’ll produce the evidence.” It’s really hard to match screams to someone’s normal speaking voice. I’m sure Pasha Erdogan can produce an audio of someone screaming, but it’s far more likely to be one of thousands Turkish journalist or other “threats” locked up in Turkish prisons being tortured.

    So, I haven’t talked much about Khashoggi himself. Who is he? Something of a chameleon. Or, in my view, more of a snake. He was/is very good at being whoever he needed to be depending on what crowd he was manipulating. Links you want? I got links:

    https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2018/10/jamal-khashoggi-and-the-washington-post.php

    After a successful career as an adviser to and unofficial spokesman for the royal family of Saudi Arabia, he had been barred from writing in the kingdom, even on Twitter, by the new crown prince. . . .

    So in the United States, he reinvented himself as a critic, contributing columns to The Washington Post. . .

    Why would the Post enable a former spokesman for the Saudi royal family to reinvent himself by contributing columns?

    The Times reporters say that, according to Khashoggi’s friends, he joined the Muslim Brotherhood. They claim Khashoggi stopped attending Brotherhood meetings but acknowledge that he “remained conversant in its conservative, Islamist and often anti-Western rhetoric, which he could deploy or hide depending on whom he was seeking to befriend.” Was Khashoggi hiding such rhetoric in his Post columns?

    Why would the Post hire a member of the Muslim Brotherhood who sometimes deployed (and other times hid) Islamist, anti-Western rhetoric?

    Actually it was Khashoggi himself who considered himself a member ot the MB, but that’s in the article at my other link.

    Hubbard and Kirkpatrick describe Khashoggi as a “political Islamist” who “forge[d] a personal bond with President Recep Tayyip Erdogan of Turkey.” Why would the Post use as a columnist an Islamist pal of Erdogan?

    Very simple. DJT was undoing Obama’s legacy, and his major foreign policy legacy was propping up Iran as a regional power, increasing its influence in the region, and polishing the, uhh, “toilet loaf” by painting Iran as a “responsible member” of the “international community” without even politely asking Iran to reform it’s terrorist, hegemonic ways. By using Khashoggi as a columnist, the WaPo was attacking DJT and his completely opposite of Obama’s foreign policy.

    David Goldman describes Khashoggi as “a top level spook who played a high-stakes game in Saudi spookdom.” Is Goldman exaggerating? I don’t know. But Khashoggi does seem to have been some form of Middle East operative. Why would the Post choose a Middle East operative to write columns for it?

    He certainly was some sort of operative. He worked at various Saudi-owned news outlets and intel operatives often pose as “journalists” in state run media. When Prince Turki al-Faisal was appointed S.A.’s ambassador to the UK, the prince hired Khashoggi as an advisor. When the prince was appointed envoy to the US, Khashoggi went with him. Why is this important? Al-Faisal was the head of Saudi Arabia’s foreign intelligence service for twenty four years before resigning the post when he accepted the post to the UK. They had a prior working relationship.

    https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/oct/17/jamal-khashoggi-killing-sparked-muslim-brotherhood/

    As a younger man in Saudi Arabia, Mr. Khashoggi considered himself a member of the Muslim Brotherhood, which analysts often describe as a foundational group behind the emergence of al Qaeda.

    It wasn’t just his friends asserting that Khashoggi was once a member to the Ikhwan. Khashoggi was a self-admitted member of the Ikhwan. And “analysts often describe?” Any analyst who wouldn’t always describe the Ikhwan as the foundational organization behind all other later terrorist groups should be flayed alive. Sayyad Qutb was the MB’s chief theologian. He wrote two books. While in prison following his arrest in 1955, for his role in the the group’s terrorist activities. His books outlined his “milestones” formula. In fact, his second book “Milestones” is simply a condensed version of his earlier book “Under the Shadow of the Quran” and can be found on line and read for free. This is required reading for jihadists. The document entered into evidence in the 2007/8 Holy Land Foundation terror funding trial, An Explanatory Memorandum on the Strategic Goals of the Muslim Brotherhood in North America, is obviously based upon Qutb’s milestones formula. As is a lesser known memorandum discovered in a police raid (at the Bush admin’s request) in November 2001 on the Swiss villa of a Muslim bank board member with fifty years of ties the the MB as well as links to AQ, the document simply known in intel circles as The Project.

    Mr. David described Mr. Khashoggi as a “man of principle and integrity” who believed in the promotion of democracy in the Arab world and as someone steeped in the challenges of navigating the tumultuous media scene in Saudi Arabia and across the Middle East.

    Yeah, right. One of the reasons Khashoggi claimed he went into self-imposed “exile” was that he was disgusted with Prince MBS’s penchant for imprisoning critics, particularly his fellow journalists. So he decides to arrange for an apartment Istanbul and planned to divide his time between the US and Turkey. Turkey, the country run by his good friend and fellow Islamist Erdogan, who far and away has a much worse record of locking up critics including journalists than the Saudi prince. Man of integrity my @$$. But like I said, he always struck me as a snake, the kind of guy who could be whoever he needed to be in order to manipulate whatever audience he wanted to manipulate. As they say in politics, “Sincerity; if you can fake that, you’ve got it made.”

    Putin-style whacking?

    This is not a Putin-style hit. Putin is not stupid enough to kill someone inside one of his diplomatic facilities in a western country. H3ll, not even Kim Jong Un is that stupid. He had a Vietnamese and Malaysian national assissinate his brother in the Kuala Lumpur airport. Nobody is that stupid. And Prince MBS isn’t stupid.

    The prince has made a lot of enemies at home and abroad due to his reforms as well as putting hundreds of princes and other wealthy Saudies under “house arrest” at the Ritz Carlton for months while investigating corruption. Erdogan needs Saudi Petrodollars in the form of investment, but at the same time he sees S.A. as an adversary and as an Islamist he detests the prince personally. And Erdogan’s Turkey, a political rival running a police state, is the country that Prince MBS chooses to assassinate Khashoggi? I’m not buying it. Nor will I believe any “evidence” the dictator Erdogan cooks up about his detested rival. Is there any dictator in the world, Pat, that is so corrupt that you won’t take his word over Trump?

    It appears to me this is part of a palace coup. Whatever was done it was done in such a ham-handed way as to direct maximum suspicion on the Saudi government an the Saudi prince running it as possible. Just a little too convenient, don’t you think? That question is directed toward anyone capable of maintaining some semblance of objectivity.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  101. the evening had turned foggy

    and Khashoggi had turned groggy

    so he and his brand new doggie

    walked along to a café

    not just any doggie, this

    she was a pure dachsbracke

    as pretty as you please her name was Millicent René

    they wandered hither wandered yither

    til the consulate they passed

    I’ll be just a minute

    to a post he tied his lass

    just a quickly quick-done errand and we’ll be on our way

    and he gave a loving look to his dear Millicent René

    just a quickly quick-done errand and we’ll be on our way

    words that haunt our Millicent as day on day she pined

    she lost her youth and she lost her Khashoggi

    now she’s lost her mind

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  102. …We are talking about the act of murder in a consulate. Pretend it was a U.S. citizen who was “wet-worked” by the CIA in the American consulate in Istanbul when he went in to get his divorce certified. Would it be a crime?

    nk (dbc370) — 10/18/2018 @ 8:22 am

    Think about what you’re saying, nk. It’s not just an act of murder in a consulate, which right there should tell you there’s something off about the story. But it’s an act of murder in a consulate in Erdogan’s Turkey. A police/surveillance state and has been for years. Americans meeting with Turkish critics of the regime were surprised by the measures the Turks, particularly the journalists, took to make sure that Erdogan’s goons weren’t following them. Taking combinations of taxis and public transportation, never traveling directly to the meeting location but taking convoluted routes, doubling back, using every kind of counter-surveillance technique they could think of including not only turning their cell phones off but removing the batteries.

    Turning the phone off is never enough. If you really want to make sure you’re not being monitored and don’t want your phone to ping the nearest cell phone tower you have to remove the battery.

    And Saudi intel knows all this. So, where do they choose to assassinate a critic of the regime? Why, Erdogan’s police/surveillance state of course. A political rival. And they kill the critic inside the Saudi consulate. And take no steps to hide what they’re doing.

    Yeah, this narrative makes all kinds of sense. Did they also have a neon sign made that flashed the message, “Prince Muhammad Bin Salman is now having Jamal Khashoggi killed. Please wait in line and we’ll provide consular service to no. 353 next at window 4?”

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  103. Another thing, yes khashoggi has written some Illcinsidered things in the past like that middle East monitor piece, up thread, but Prince bin Farhan, has actually suggested a coup d’etat, from his exile in Berlin, yet he’s still around, yes it’s a vendetta in part directed by Prince talal, whose wallet got a,little light last autumn.

    Narciso (d1f714)

  104. The Saudi’s tried, convicted, sentenced and dispensed the death penalty on their sovereign soil.
    What if Khashoggi criticized the Saudi Royal Family and in Saudi Arabia that carries a mandatory death penalty? Its their laws and their country.

    The Turk evidence would also be inadmissible because it was discovered by an ongoing violation of international law; illegal listening? The spies could be executed immediately as well.

    By international agreement, a Saudi consulate or embassy in Istanbul or London is as Saudi Arabia as Riyadh.

    Bottom line to me is that this is none of our business. as Tim Conway Jr. says “you knew the rules, mahalo”. If you poke the bear, don’t go in the cage. I have little sympathy for anyone who seriously disrespects the shot callers and then thinks the shot callers must honor the First Amendment of the USA when the Saudis don’t have any such law. You disrespect the shot caller, you move to Montana, buy some guns and ammo. put out range markers down the driveway. Change your name maybe. And STFU about the Saudi Royals.

    steveg (a9dcab)

  105. Byzantine in every sense of the word, eh?

    nk (dbc370)

  106. Well the term is known as ‘corruption of the blood” the Saud since their alliance with ibn wahhab, has been in a nearly three century long tug a war with the Turks, the latter bottled the former in the early 19th century, shut down the slave trade around 1859 before the second kingdom which fell apart over familial rivals,

    Narciso (d1f714)

  107. By international agreement, a Saudi consulate or embassy in Istanbul or London is as Saudi Arabia as Riyadh.

    For all purposes? I doubt it. It’s not dispositive, even if so. The killers traversed non-consular Turkish territory to get there.

    nk (dbc370)

  108. Are we still working off no evidence? The info from the article is based on a description of a recording. As far as I can tell from the news even this comes from an anonymous source?

    frosty48 (6226c1)

  109. A story the lead Turkish correspondent in dc has denied exists, so from saw we’ve gone to classic Hitchcock with a touch of goodfellas.

    Narciso (d1f714)

  110. Bottom line to me is that this is none of our business. as Tim Conway Jr. says “you knew the rules, mahalo”. If you poke the bear, don’t go in the cage. I have little sympathy for anyone who seriously disrespects the shot callers and then thinks the shot callers must honor the First Amendment of the USA when the Saudis don’t have any such law. You disrespect the shot caller, you move to Montana, buy some guns and ammo. put out range markers down the driveway. Change your name maybe. And STFU about the Saudi Royals.

    steveg (a9dcab) — 10/18/2018 @ 6:14 pm

    The freedom to speak against Putin or the Saudi “royals” doesn’t come from the first amendment. It’s a basic human right that our constitution happens to recognize, but is ours regardless. I know it’s patronizing to say this. Every reader here knows that. But the idea that someone who criticized tyrants is unworthy of sympathy when he’s sawed into pieces because they don’t respect human rights is a short term winner, long term loser.

    Truth is we don’t really know what happened. There’s a lot of opportunity for deception and false flags. But it’s easy in the short term, and hard in the long term, to tolerate the evil tyrants of the world. It’s where Trump is failing the most, to be honest. He is far too sympathetic to the Putins and Kims of the world.

    Dustin (ba94b2)

  111. Have you looked at the eu, they see 1984 as a how to guide:

    https://nypost.com/2018/10/18/why-the-saudis-despised-jamal-khashoggi/

    Narciso (d1f714)

  112. He is far too sympathetic to the Putins and Kims of the world.

    there’s nothing Mr. Putin would like more than for President Trump to give in to corrupt jew-hating anti-semite Bob Corker and sanction the crap out of Saudi Arabia

    Vladimir Putin would love that so much he would love it so much

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  113. Who handed half of Ukraine on a silver platter allowed boosters from the other half to be matched to miniaturized warheads,

    Narciso (d1f714)

  114. By international agreement, a Saudi consulate or embassy in Istanbul or London is as Saudi Arabia as Riyadh.

    For all purposes? I doubt it. It’s not dispositive, even if so. The killers traversed non-consular Turkish territory to get there.

    nk (dbc370) — 10/18/2018 @ 6:20 pm

    Search on the term “Vienna Convention,” nk, because yes for all purposes a Saudi consulate or embassy is, like a US embassy guarded by Marines, the sovereign soil of country inhabiting it. Just like a nation’s warship. No nation is stupid enough to attempt to conduct a police raid on a Royal Navy or United States ship, because even when we’re in foreign ports we are our nation’s sovereign territory. It’s a good way to start a war that “they” won’t win.

    Yes, the Turks can investigate the alleged crime. The Turks can do whatever they want on non-consular Turkish territory. But they have no right, no excuse, to demand entry into anyone’s consulate or embassy.

    And it’s interesting that you write as if you believe the claims of the Turks. “The killers traversed non-consular Turkish territory to get there.” So there were killers? Because the Turks says so. I would expect a Greek to be more skeptical of whatever claims the Turks make.

    No wonder the Greeks lost half of Cyprus to the Turks.

    Sincerely, the victors of the Battle of Lepanto.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  115. When Mussolini invaded Greece on October 28, 1940, it was Turkey who supplied Greece with weapons and ammunition for its hastily-mobilized army.

    If you know Lepanto, you should know argument arguendo. And, no, I don’t believe the Turks. I want them to prove their case. In turn, I want the Arabs to show us the genie who magically transported the killers from Saudi Arabia into the consulate without them having to cross Turkish territory.

    nk (dbc370)

  116. And turkey provided the eastern earlier to Egypt and Syria,

    Question, the consulate didn’t have cameras, you know it’s the first things Gibbs would ask.

    Narciso (d1f714)

  117. Ratline die spinne escape route, they won’t provide the tape,

    Narciso (d1f714)

  118. What about the Americans that were left to be murdered in Benghazi? This is what should matter not some foreign brother hoody who thinks being a journalist is too fight against the U.S.A. People seem very confuzeled over what should matter.

    mg (9e54f8)

  119. You know,I think where they story from the south African consulate in Los Angeles in lethal weapon 2, it happened in an upstairs office where they put sheeting on the floor.

    Narciso (d1f714)

  120. With people being harassed without proof because someone thinks you should be seems like Stalinville.

    mg (9e54f8)

  121. Saudi propaganda, bad.

    Turkish, good.

    Ok.

    Bob (9af831)

  122. But it’s easy in the short term, and hard in the long term, to tolerate the evil tyrants of the world. It’s where Trump is failing the most, to be honest. He is far too sympathetic to the Putins and Kims of the world.

    Dustin (ba94b2) — 10/18/2018 @ 6:40 pm

    I honestly don’t get you and people like you, Dustin. I realize that Trump brays like a mule against his own personal antagonists like a mule, and he doesn’t when it’s Putin, Kim Jong Un, etc. But that to me says the man is smarter than his antagonists choose to give him credit for. If you look at what his administration does he’s far harsher than any President since Reagan.

    They Bush 41, Clinton brayed like mules, but acted like lap dogs. They couldn’t help themselves, saying how stupid it would be to go all the way to Baghdad. In other words, it would have been stupid to do what it would take to actually stop Saddam Hussein. Saddam got the Message; he stepped up his anti-American, terrorist supporting pace. Remember Operation Desert Fox, the only US military operation in US history named after a Nazi general? I do. What a flaccid waste of time and resources that was. Oh, and do you think Trump is too weak on the Kim regime. Let’s walk down memory lane.

    http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/48470000/jpg/_48470702_48470703.jpg

    Yeah, there’s a good look for America. Champagne dreams, NORKs!

    Trump didn’t screw over Poland and the Czech Republic by announcing that he was cancelling the ABM shield on the 70th anniversary of Hitler and Stalin carving up Poland. Do you think that was an accident?

    In 2010 the NORKs sink the Cheonan. This hit a little too close to home for me. I’ve worked, trained, and sailed with the ROKN (Republic Of Korea Navy) most especially their patrol corvettes. And Hillary! Clinton and Obama mad noises about how the fictional “international community” was going to make them pay, whoever “they” were. They were exactly who they thought they were; Kim Jong Il was on NORK TV handing out medals to the planners of the assassination practically the next day. The royal triumvirate of Obama/Clinton/Rice got pantsed at the UNSC. The NORKs celebrated their triumph that year by shelling the Yeonpyeong Islands. As I recall the Obama admin didn’t say diddly as they had already embarrassed themselves enough.

    I’m wracking my brain to come up with specific examples of how Bush disgraced himself, and he did, but I can’t think of specific examples. I sorta went numb around 2005 and said, “I’m tired of defending this guy. OK, Democrats impeach him, let nature run its course.”

    Seriously, Dustin, how much more sympathetic to a dictator could Trump be than Obama? Who unknowingly over an open mike asked Russian President Medvedev to pass to Putin that he could be more flexible after he won reelection. More flexible in terms of passing information that would undercut US national security?

    But Trump is the one too well disposed to he dictators of the world, eh? What orifice are you pulling this out of?

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  123. They’re all mules. At least in Trump we have a mule that knows when to bray, when to kick, and who to kick.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  124. Well, I’m a little disappointed. I had come to believe that Obama really did kill Osama bin Laden in Operation Zero Dark Thirty, because if he hadn’t, Trump would have already blabbed it.

    But now I’m having doubts. OBL might be living it up with his family and friends in his father’s palace in Riyadh and Trump would not say anything as a favor to Jared’s Saudi buddies.

    nk (dbc370)

  125. Yes rob o’neil did the deed, funny thing all the pocket litter, video other data except for his porn collection, Obama locked up tighter than a drum, general Flynn, (remember when he was evil, for signing a promotional contract with the Turkish govt) did get a peak at the files and he realized there was a light at the end of the tunnel, and it was an oncoming train,

    Narciso (d1f714)

  126. Why is,kyzinski a little crazy sometimes, because his twin brother and the rest of the polish cabinet were decimated outside of smolensk.

    Narciso (d1f714)

  127. …In turn, I want the Arabs to show us the genie who magically transported the killers from Saudi Arabia into the consulate without them having to cross Turkish territory.

    nk (dbc370) — 10/18/2018 @ 7:10 pm

    Just so you know, I don’t believe the Saudis. I’m not throwing in with any of these lot sight unseen.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  128. Well, I’m a little disappointed. I had come to believe that Obama really did kill Osama bin Laden in Operation Zero Dark Thirty, because if he hadn’t, Trump would have already blabbed it.

    But now I’m having doubts. OBL might be living it up with his family and friends in his father’s palace in Riyadh and Trump would not say anything as a favor to Jared’s Saudi buddies.

    nk (dbc370) — 10/18/2018 @ 7:56 pm

    No, Obama really did personally kill OBL. And we have the action figure to prove it.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1386462/Obama-Navy-SEAL-armed-action-doll-Rambama-released-celebrate-Bin-Ladens-death.html

    ‘Rambama’: Obama Navy SEAL armed action doll released to celebrate Bin Laden’s death

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  129. A year Brennan, burned the most promising asset into aqap, storm the dane had already been compromised.

    Narciso (d1f714)

  130. Well, I’m a little disappointed. I had come to believe that Obama really did kill Osama bin Laden in Operation Zero Dark Thirty, because if he hadn’t, Trump would have already blabbed it.

    But now I’m having doubts. OBL might be living it up with his family and friends in his father’s palace in Riyadh and Trump would not say anything as a favor to Jared’s Saudi buddies.

    nk (dbc370) — 10/18/2018 @ 7:56 pm

    Ha! I suppose you’re right about that.

    What orifice are you pulling this out of?

    Steve57

    Bless your heart.

    Dustin (ba94b2)

  131. Well we went after qasim al raymi, probably based on a tip they got from the uae which buzzfeed burned maliciously this week, he wasn’t there, but there were indication he had been in yacla in the past.

    Narciso (d1f714)

  132. Same thing Dustin says of Trump was Sid of Reagan too.

    Yes children, some murdering oligarchs are much more useful and better than others.

    Take your principle elsewhere where they might be useful … like children in Madagascrer and feeding them.

    Bob (9af831)

  133. I remember all the hand wringing when Reagan did not bend over and hand South Africa to the USSR and Mandela.

    Good times.

    Or Noreiaga to fight Sandinistas.

    Perfection, the mortal enemy of effective.

    Bob (9af831)

  134. Yes, the late general Rios Montt wracked up a body count probably equivalent to Yemen, Marcos Pinochet mobutu (getting rid of him was really smart wasn’t it, they have the gold metal in savagery)

    Narciso (d1f714)

  135. Oh yes who can forget ‘aint gonna play Sun city’ thirty years out Joberg is like a scene out of predator.

    Narciso (d1f714)

  136. Same thing Dustin says of Trump was Sid of Reagan too.

    That’s always the funniest part, when Trump’s fans try to lump Trump in with Reagan. Trump has praised the Tienanmen Square massacre, Stalin, Kim, Putin, and all other manner of horrible people and events. Reagan instead demanded tyrants tear down their walls. He called the evil empire “the evil empire.” He didn’t praise it.

    Take your principle elsewhere where they might be useful

    What does this even mean?

    My point is pretty simple: Trump’s been punked rather badly by Kim and Putin in particular. He was wrong. His plan has failed. No wonder the bad guys are getting worse by the minute. The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

    I’m just calling them like I see them. I’ve given Trump credit when he gets something right, but unfortunately most people aren’t like that. They’ve picked a side.

    At any rate, my principles are actually practical in my daily life, so I will reject your advice that I abandon principles. Thanks!

    Dustin (ba94b2)

  137. And the world’s chancellories acted that way for 30 years, tian an men was a speed bump,

    In the depth of the cold war, democracy wasn’t always the best alternative.

    Narciso (d1f714)

  138. Perfection, the mortal enemy of effective.

    Bob (9af831) — 10/18/2018 @ 8:34 pm

    So you’re arguing that Trump is just short of perfect, and it’s only perfectionists who are critical of his foreign policy. After his embarrassment next to Putin, where he simply looked weak for his overdone and repetitive praise, or after declaring North Korea is no longer a nuclear threat, which was an outright lie… that’s in the vicinity of perfect?

    Bob, thanks for the argument, but I think the problem is that these things are actually bad. They are ineffective. Things in the world are getting worse. It’s not that he’s merely not good enough… he’s just not good at all.

    Dustin (ba94b2)

  139. We’re we wrong to support every one from park Chung had to roe tae wu, waiting for some mythical democratic leader, which might not have shown up.

    Narciso (d1f714)

  140. And the world’s chancellories acted that way for 30 years, tian an men was a speed bump,

    Trump’s comment was not that it was a minor thing in the larger picture of how horrible china’s human rights abuses were. I would praise Trump for that kind of insight. Trump said the Chinese massacre of people for criticizing their government was a good idea.

    In the depth of the cold war, democracy wasn’t always the best alternative.

    Tiananmen Square is in the People’s Republic of China, and that’s a communist country. You believe that in the ‘depth of the cold war’ that communism was the best alternative? I could be misunderstanding you, and apologize if so. I definitely agree that there were proxy wars where we had to make deals with devils and all that. But praising dictators for showing brutality? I fail to see the benefit of that.

    Dustin (ba94b2)

  141. “Or Noreiaga to fight Sandinistas.”

    Can’t make an omelette without raping a few nuns.

    Davethulhu (5cc577)

  142. As to Iraq, I don’t see any reason it was wrong, except we went in the enemy which had looted the country set for 35 years would just settle down, why did we think that specially when we knew that their security service was tied to every militant group, Shia as well as sunni

    Narciso (d1f714)

  143. No I meant dictators over democracies like deng killed 3,000 instead of maos butcher’s bill in the tens of million,

    Narciso (d1f714)

  144. You probably didn’t hear with this, with all the khashoggi khashoggi khashoggi boomlet:

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/venezuela-nicolas-maduro-opposition-fernando-alban-prison-death-not-suicide/

    Narciso (d1f714)

  145. At any rate, my principles are actually practical in my daily life, so I will reject your advice that I abandon principles. Thanks!

    Dustin (ba94b2) — 10/18/2018 @ 8:39 pm

    You have a dream of a more perfect world than the rest of us have. That makes you a better person than those of us who have to slog through reality and don’t imagineer more perfect worlds, I guess.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  146. You can add that to the 150 dead students or so, in Venezuela over the last year or two, who knows maybe that keystone coup leak to the times, prompted this. They never identified which officers were involve ed so they purged all of them,

    narciso (d1f714)

  147. No I meant dictators over democracies like deng killed 3,000 instead of maos butcher’s bill in the tens of million,

    Narciso

    Sorry for misunderstanding. You make a good point that some of the things we focus on are actually small compared to the things we don’t.

    It’s still terrible that this one man was murdered in Turkey. But I take your point.

    Dustin (ba94b2)

  148. “ Reagan instead demanded tyrants tear down their walls. He called the evil empire “the evil empire.” He didn’t praise it.”
    Dustin (ba94b2) — 10/18/2018 @ 8:39 pm

    And, he laid a wreath at Bitburg where the SS are buried. But, that doesn’t count as praising the SS — unless Trump had done it.

    Munroe (79cf78)

  149. In an absolute monarchy there are NO LIMITS on the sovereign’s power over his subjects, at least within his realm. NONE, other than those excesses that will cause regicide.

    Oh, he may institute some semblance of due process for ordinary matters so that he can delegate most of his power. But in no way does this limit his ultimate authority. If he decides that the Grand Vizier needs a shortening, then that will be carried out post haste. And no one will call it murder, because it isn’t. His whim is law.

    So, to say that if this happened in a US consulate, where the CIA lured, say, Edward Snowden and then defenestrated him with extreme prejudice, would not be the same thing. Because WE are NOT an absolute monarchy and such has not existed in the English speaking world since Charles I got the axe.

    But that does not mean the same rules apply to the House of Saud. OTOH, there is nothing forcing us to deal with such a regime.

    Kevin M (d6cbf1)

  150. They have piled the trash high and deep at the times, whether it was downplaying the holocaust, buying fidels song and dance,
    Leading to diems execution

    https://mobile.twitter.com/JerylBier/status/1053109888962969602

    narciso (d1f714)

  151. And, he laid a wreath at Bitburg where the SS are buried.

    In an act that said: the war is over and done; all those folks are dead now, lets move on.

    Kevin M (d6cbf1)

  152. He was doing a favor for helmet kohl just like five years before he had done one for Trent lott.

    narciso (d1f714)

  153. Munroe, I don’t understand your point. Trump is criticized for what he has actually done. Why fantasize about him being criticized for things Reagan did? There were no two Presidents more different in character.

    Dustin (ba94b2)

  154. At any rate, my principles are actually practical in my daily life, so I will reject your advice that I abandon principles. Thanks!

    Dustin (ba94b2) — 10/18/2018 @ 8:39 pm

    Have you bothered to sit down and calculate how many police and military forces it takes to make your “practical” principles, well, practical? Because they’re not “practical, they depend on others willing to risk life and limb and hypothermia to keep the lines of communications open.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QgLuIqmSqs

    Rough Sea Coast Guard bar crossing

    Crossing the Oregon Bar.

    Station Cape Disappointment trains near Ilwaco, Wash.

    I like your virtue signalling, bro. Really, it’s impressive.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  155. He didn’t go to nuclear war over North Korea, which could well have been the result, Reagan tried to avoid that as much as possible, but we came close with able archer.

    So in the above link the times realized their fake news was more fake than usual, most likely they had no one who understood what Kushner was rhinking.

    Narciso (d1f714)

  156. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFb3yPtcakc

    Station Cape Disappointment trains near Ilwaco, Wash.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  157. How bout we bring all the troops home and give all these nut case countries the 1 finger salute.

    mg (9e54f8)

  158. In an act that said: the war is over and done; all those folks are dead now, lets move on.

    Moreover, there would be SS buried in most German military cemeteries, and if you’re going to lay a wreath where nazi soldiers are buried, as an act of reconciliation with the free and democratic Germany, it hardly matters whether there happen to be SS there. The nazi regime was a massive irredeemably wicked and criminal machine, in which the SS were just one especially loathsome cog.

    Pretending there is any moral difference between a cemetery full of nazis and a cemetery full of nazis including SS misses the point entirely.

    Dave (9664fc)

  159. Bob, thanks for the argument, but I think the problem is that these things are actually bad. They are ineffective. Things in the world are getting worse.

    Dustin I think you may be right. The world may be getting worse, for a given value of “worse”. There is a good point to be made that Trump is too Falstaffian towards dictators and thugs. Most Presidents do have the problem of, shall we say, inappropriate cordiality with the wrong sorts, though Trump seems particularly guilty of this flaw*.

    At least as far as foreign policy and international military security, the degree to which Trump facilitates things in the world getting worse is up for debate, though.

    And yes, a comparative study can be made with the last occupant of the White House and how he was disinclined to correct or discourage predatory behavior by unfriendly powers. Steve already mentioned Obama’s pathetic overture to Putin, through Medvedev, as illustrative that Obama wasn’t particularly serious about challenging illiberal regimes, whatever he may have claimed in public, and that he grossly misunderstood the cynical ambitions of the Russian executive. God only knows how amused the Iranian theocrats were by his “deal” with their underlings those years ago.

    I would add to that his reprehensible failure to enforce a red line that *he drew* in Syria. It would have been one thing to say that the US should stay out of Syria (the US didn’t, and hasn’t, and probably never would have stayed out, but that is another debate), and he seems to think this is what he accomplished. US allies and Syrian civilians drew different conclusions, of course. And it is damning that the America First gasbag apparently has a better appreciation for how important Turkey, Saudi Arabia, and Israel are to wider regional security and has accordingly set to mending fences with those disparate states.

    Consider also his singularly useless outreach to the execrable party that holds sway in Havana, a regime that has played a key role in turning Venezuela into its particular form of bedlam. Again, Moscow and Teheran and Beijing can’t have been dissuaded by this gormless and unprovoked misreading of a hostile and deeply authoritarian local power, particularly one so weak, so proximate, and so predicated on its contempt for US influence and beneficence.

    Yes, he helped get rid of the calamitous Ghadaffi, but only after being seemingly dragged into it by more realistic and far-sighted Anglo-French allies, and then blamed the latter for “not having a plan” once Muammar tragically bowed out. The irony of the “anti-Iraq War” President failing to have a postwar plan is especially sad.

    (If others here think that contemporary Libya is somehow a decline from the great old gang-raping and grave-digging days of stability under the Leader of the Revolution, I suppose the occasional drive past Lockerbie has a funny way of focusing my thoughts on that point… That, and the realisation that Benghazi could have been even worse than Aleppo).

    *On the other hand, Trump could be the only head of state to publicly call the North Korean leader a lardass to his face, presumably something that might give a quasi-divine autocrat some pause.

    JP (75576b)

  160. Specially, in light of what happened to oavaldo pays, that ‘auto accident where his popular party escort was silenced, oh I could refer to Pedro Luis boitel died in prison,

    narciso (d1f714)

  161. How bout we bring all the troops home and give all these nut case countries the 1 finger salute.

    they’re starting to have very real trouble finding suckers willing to sign up for this nonsense anymore

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  162. they’re starting to have very real trouble finding suckers willing to sign up for this nonsense anymore

    And we’ll have even fewer as the economy improves, unemployment decreases, and the minimum wage (government-imposed and prevailing market) goes up.

    nk (dbc370)

  163. plus who wants to get all those disgusting tattoos

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  164. My daughter. I told her it would be her way of saying to me that she never wanted to see me again. I think she believed me.

    nk (dbc370)

  165. oh man we need laws to where nobody can deface themselves until they have a mortgage

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  166. this whole silly kashoggi thing’s just like that thing with rape-joker Christine Ford all over again (we’re stuck in a loop)

    everyone knows it’s a ginned-up con job there’s just a lot of people what want to embrace it and co-brand with it

    part of it’s the usual vapid virtue signaling

    but part of it’s just to show they can get away with it

    it’s a will to power thing the CNN Jake Tapper fake news is doing along with their trashy CIA fwends

    but at the end of the day nobody cares about poor dead shoggy-shog, just like nobody gave a crap about weirdo Christine and her creepy hippocampus

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  167. oops *khashoggi*

    you have to say it like you’re working something up out of your throat (mucus)

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  168. but all saudi arabia has to do is slow walk everything like how corrupt freak rod rosenstein and the rest of the dirty sessions DOJ does things

    the whole template they need to get through this is right there

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  169. The Major Scum Media really are trying hard to tie this albatross around Trump’s neck.

    But the real virtue signalling was the Global Magnitsky Act. Sure, it’s a great idea, until you try to enforce it on seven plus billion people. Where do you begin, where do you end? Not to mention that people like Erdogan invented the Rules For Radicals and know how to take advantage of their opponents’ book of rules.

    nk (dbc370)

  170. the Magnitsky Act is what it looks like when you let social justice fairies do their airy fairy legislation all up in it

    it’s basically just another version of the gay-assed World Court but with some flitty ivy league (non-asian) State Department flunkies specifically assigned to mewl about it

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  171. but the noisiest jew-hating Magnitsky num-num is dirty Bob Corker and he’s about to become a non-person

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  172. Who to believe… the MSM that lie about nearly everything? This Khashoggi may prove to be much less innocent than many are portraying as.

    Colonel Haiku (1cc715)

  173. innocent or not who gives a banana nut pancake

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  174. We have VIDEO!!!!!!

    (Not likely)

    https://sg.news.yahoo.com/turkey-widens-khashoggi-search-denies-giving-us-tapes-113453716.html

    Which propaganda hate-America Fusion GPS story should we believe?

    Saudi $$$? Or Turkish / Qatar $$$$?

    Bob the Builder (9af831)

  175. This is a community service… posted to educate those who frequently fall back on using these to counter arguments or prop up their own: https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/politifact-is-forced-to-retract-a-story-claiming-claire-mccaskill-didnt-say-what-she-definitely-said

    Colonel Haiku (1cc715)

  176. So saw lethal weapon Rasputin next they’ll have him like ash with the chainsaw.

    Narciso (d1f714)

  177. #137 Dustin, you must be a lawyer because you confuse words with action and results.

    You can rail all you want about Trump liking Authoritarians but I am old enough to remember Democrats railing against every Republican who supported an authoritarian regime that kept the peace. And when the Republican did not …. you got Iraq. So spare me your principles. They lead to death and poverty for us.

    Bottom line is I support the Saudis exterminating every Muslim Brotherhood lunatics alive. I also have no problem with Muslim Brotherhood blowing to bits every Prince in the Penninsula (Hotel).

    What I do care about is keeping those nut jobs killing each other occupied with their own version of crazy and not exporting terror or “refugees” to the West. Let them slaughter each other. Alluh Ahkbar! And hope a few of our Leftist MSM go over there and are arrested too.

    Trump is doing a great job. I care about results — which why I say that. NeverTrump is truly a gateway drug to Leftism.

    Bob the Builder (9af831)

  178. Svetlana (that’s Claire in Russian) had twenty-five meetings with Sergey Kisliak, the Russian ambassador, about repealing the Magnitsky Act, around the same time that Sessions was chit-chatting with Kislyak at Washington cocktail parties that Al Franken was whining about.

    nk (dbc370)

  179. #176 And yet time again, NeverTrump will use the Website uncritically to attack while ignoring the smear merchants they are.

    Yet they go to bed at night calling themselves “principled” Conservatives.

    Really is worst case of Cognitive Dissonance going right now.

    Bob the Builder (9af831)

  180. She liked his stroganoff what can you say, this story has gotten a Monty pythonesque air to it.

    Narciso (d1f714)

  181. NeverTrump is truly a gateway drug to Leftism.

    Trump is a gateway to STDs, and some are now penicillin-resistant while others are not curable at all.

    nk (dbc370)

  182. “The world is getting worse”

    …… and herein the problem with NeverTrump.

    Even if true I don’t give a shoooot about the world getting worse.

    What I care about is security and prosperity for the USA.

    So unless you have a smarter argument I don’t find it interesting.

    Tired of being sold the BS that somehow our involvement in everything makes our good old USA better.

    It doesn’t

    Bob the Builder (9af831)

  183. Sorry NK, but Trump is doing a great job and doing what we need him to do.

    The Unicorn Fairy Tales borne of the 1940s experience are of no interest to me in our modern world.

    That is how you get Iraq and trillions of dollars in US Soldiers living on foreign lands for 50/60/70/80 years.

    POTUS job is to maintain peace and prosperity at home — even at the expense of those in Saudi Arabia or Turkey.

    Bob the Builder (9af831)

  184. Really is worst case of Cognitive Dissonance going right now.

    Is that what they call being able to walk and chew gum at the same time? The Trumpkin cult is 100% unconditional in its adoration of Trump and they think everybody else should be too. Well, people with more than two brain cells don’t think that way.

    nk (dbc370)

  185. Your template is from the uss eldridge?

    Narciso (d1f714)

  186. Meanwhile the head of Interpol may be mostly dead, crickets.

    Narciso (d1f714)

  187. How Saudi Arabia helps USA

    Pump oil
    Invest in our infrastructure
    Stop Islamists from coming here
    Stop sending money to Fusion GPS
    Kill other Islamists wherever they are

    …. not one thing in that list concerns how “principled” or decent the Saudis are.

    Bob the Builder (9af831)

  188. Well, Hitler hanged Arthur Nebe, the head of Interpol in 1945, from a meathook.

    nk (dbc370)

  189. NK,

    100% unconditional in its adoration of Trump

    Another big lie.

    I am a fan of common sense however.

    I think all Lawyers should get out in the world and away from their Libraries of “Knowledge”

    Fascinating place. Lots of good and bad. More importantly — lots of lessons in life.

    Bob the Builder (9af831)

  190. The Prince went after most of the members of the golden chain, they are the folk that Rachel ehrenfeld among others has been barred from mentioning.

    Narciso (d1f714)

  191. #188…… Interpol picked a Chinese Spy to lead its efforts and now we pretend shock he is dead at the hand of the Chinese?

    Bob the Builder (9af831)

  192. Seriously. Head of Interpol is a moonlighting job. In his regular job, the Chinese gentleman was something like China’s Andrew McCabe — a highly-placed security services official who messed up somehow.

    nk (dbc370)

  193. #192 …. Wonder when MBS is going to reopen the Penninsula for the Saudi Billionaires funding this garbage with Turkey and Qatar.

    I wish MBS well so long as he is killing off the crazies. Same goes for Muslim Brotherhood is they are wacking Princes.

    Virtuous Cycle.

    Bob the Builder (9af831)

  194. Wish we could get Saddam back and have him go to war with Iran again.

    Good times.

    Bob the Builder (9af831)

  195. Yes he was Bernard Gunthers boss, so Carlos slims and the post are all right dumping on the black sandhurst grad general assiri?

    Narciso (d1f714)

  196. Once again you let your Trump-hatred blind you to the facts.

    Steve57,

    Do not say that again to me, please. Personal observations and attacks are not welcome at this site any more.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  197. Of course the daily basilisk will but any story.

    Narciso (d1f714)

  198. I like your virtue signalling, bro. Really, it’s impressive

    Same. Cut that out.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  199. Yes he was Bernard Gunthers boss

    Both as head of the Kriminalpolizei and as head of Einsatzgruppen B (the Jew-hunters) in Latvia. He replaced Reinhardt Heydrich as head of Interpol when Heydrich was assassinated

    nk (dbc370)

  200. Question:

    Do people know you have to win in order to set the rules going forward?

    And that is bare minimum, gotta win first.

    You can’t lose your way to setting a more principled agenda.

    NeverTrump understands that right?

    Of recent memory, Franco and Pinochet taught us this much.

    Bob the Builder (9af831)

  201. Erdogan said it best, I think: Democracy is a bus you ride to power. When you get there, you get off.

    nk (dbc370)

  202. See even blofeld wasn’t that bold when he impersonated Howard Hughes I mean Willard whyte.

    Narciso (d1f714)

  203. #203 Which is exactly why you believe about 0.1% of what they say. As if his security guys beating up protestors on American soil is not enough or taking Christian hostages …. led by the WaPo, the US Media is doing Erdogan’s wishes uncritically.

    Bob the Builder (9af831)

  204. there hasn’t been such an obscene media spectacle made over a dead fluffernutter since Meghan’s daddy kicked it

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  205. …After his embarrassment next to Putin, where he simply looked weak for his overdone and repetitive praise, or after declaring North Korea is no longer a nuclear threat, which was an outright lie… that’s in the vicinity of perfect?

    Dustin (ba94b2) — 10/18/2018 @ 8:45 pm

    Of course, Dustin. The LHMFM tells you he looked weak. Because, again of course, they did their best to make him look weak. The LHMFM inquisitors basically demanded that Trump publicly and personally clap Putin in irons on stage. Which of course wasn’t going to happen. So they tell the world that Trump looked weak, and you fall for it.

    Trump: First question. You, from CNN

    CNN: How dare you stand there on stage with Vladimir Putin and not tell the world that Putin is a P.O.S. for stealing victory from Hillary! and giving the win to you?

    Obama would have looked elegant on stage. And probably even more elegant off stage, when he put on his French maid costume and between making sammiches for Putin and the mullahs got down on his hands and knees and let them drive him around the the living room so he got nearly lethal rug burns.

    And he lets Putin take the Crimea and sends non-lethal aid to Crimea in the form of ancient, broken down HUMVEEs that the Ukrainians don’t have the resources to fix. Neither did we, which is why we mothballed them in the first place.

    Trump, you are told, looked bad on stage. But he sends lethal weapons to Ukraine.

    Got it, Dustin. I know exactly where you are coming from. I can’t respect it. I can laugh at it. But I know it. And so do you.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  206. Style points, Dustin. Obama bends over and hands Putin the Crimea and Syria but with style and a stunningly perfect pants crease! I guess that matters to you.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  207. I agree that the media cannot be trusted about this. They, understandably, are outraged that one of their own may have been murdered. But they cannot resist using it as a cudgel to beat Trump with.

    nk (dbc370)

  208. happyfeet, are you keeping count of my metaphors on this thread?

    nk (dbc370)

  209. Oh if you missed It, the general is Rowan pope from scandal, the guy unafraid to get his hands dirty.

    Narciso (d1f714)

  210. i’m not doing very good on keeping up cause things are kind of a mess

    they took away our online email and i’m trying to reconfigure stuff to compensate

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  211. You thinks the Turks don’t monitor American entertainment media, their studios production values are first rate, some Spanish cable outlets bought a number of them.

    Narciso (d1f714)

  212. Do not say that again to me, please. Personal observations and attacks are not welcome at this site any more.

    Patterico (115b1f) — 10/19/2018 @ 7:17 am

    Fine. Please tell me how you can be so sure that it’s Prince Muhammad bin Salman who ordered the hit on Khashoggi? Khashoggi live multiple lives and made a lot of enemies. None of which are the good guys. There are no good guys here. Some of his ergo friends such as Erdogan may have decided he was more useful dead than alive. Do you consider Erdogan a good guy? A trustworthy source? Apparently so, from what you have written. Are you privy to facts that I am not? This is not a personal attack. I have been a professional observer of M.E. political intrigue (Naval Intelligence) for over forty years and all I can tell you is that things are never what they appear to be. If it looks like Prince MBS put out a contract on Khashoggi odds are that someone wants it to look that way.

    You may hate to hear it, but Trump and his team are handling this correctly. There is too much at stake here on multiple levels to lose in a rush to judgement. Have you considered that? Trump and his team clearly have.

    What facts are you privy to that I am not? Because right now I can not tell you what happened to Khashoggi. Unless you have access to facts that I don’t, neither can you.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  213. So you’re using snail mail, I don’t get that.

    Narciso (d1f714)

  214. Further to my last, what is exactly not welcome anymore? Let’s say someone ignores the substantive policy differences between Obama and Trump r.e. Ukraine and makes personal observations about how Trump looked on stage in Helsinki with Putin. And I bring it back to the substantive policy differences and criticize the superficiality of simply buying into the LHMFM narrative. Is that not welcome here anymore?

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  215. Co-sign on Turkish media, good soft core as well, but, alas, also the worst death scene in movie history. And no, thats not a young Luis Guzman.

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  216. On the lighter side, when you bake bread, the size, shape and scoring of the loaves makes a noticeable difference in taste and texture even if you are using the same dough mix for all of them. It has to do with the rate of neutralization of the yeast and the venting of the carbon dioxide.

    nk (dbc370)

  217. Pat, are you working up to banning me? If so, I’ll simply chalk it up to the fact that you have no answers to my questions. You’ve made a “bad words” list that put a lot of comments, including Beldar’s, into moderation because of how happyfeet kept using them. But you never considered banning happyfeet. Again, this is not a personal attack. But I suspect that your issue with me concerns something more substantive.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  218. no everything has to go through outlook

    and i have lots of machines

    and i used to be able to use OWA (outlook web access) everywhere and then everything would sync and be happy

    now it’s weird and stupid

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  219. Looked like Rowan Atkinson, so they told CNN they had a video feed, they told ABC it was an audio and they told hlm it was mime.

    Narciso (d1f714)

  220. Bob the Builder- Do you need a finish carpenter?

    mg (9e54f8)

  221. Steve57,

    Let me clear up something that I think is confusing people. It wasn’t Patterico that put words into moderation, it was me. I thought it would help keep the discussion going instead of degenerating into insults. But I took all the words out of the filter and I am no longer moderating, so commenters need to deal with Patterico’s requests and not worry about filters.

    DRJ (46c88f)

  222. it’s not like real people in america are all abuzz about shoggi-shog

    nobody’s like hey did you hear about the shogster they killed him we have to take to the streets for justice

    they’re more like hey do you like the new lady gaga song and I’m like i haven’t heard it yet and they’re like you should listen to it

    also there’s a sauce i’m excited about from our friends at kewpie

    i liked it so much i went ahead and got the half gallon

    i just steam fish and vegetables together in the steamer appliance and drizzle this on and bam it’s a meal

    (i toss the vegetables in seasoning and salt before steaming, and the seasoning always includes some chili flakes so there’s some zing to it)

    but the sauce has no fat or even calories really and it’s really fun … shoggi-shog would’ve really liked it i bet (nom nom nom)

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  223. Clearly all these stories are coming through the Qatari Turkish middle East said, al jazeera or genus sayfak to European papers to the times the post and the journal, whatever slips over goes to the beast.

    Narciso (d1f714)

  224. Mr. narciso so far there’s not enough real non-fake journalism on shoggy to have any idea what the what-what might be and it’s really really hard to work up a lot of interest in the man

    he wasn’t really someone i or most other americans relate to

    he was weird and foreign and kind of attitudey

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  225. The media wants you to think they care about this towel headed journalist, all they have done is exploit his death to harm President Trump. A street sweeper, gas station attendant, a carpenter all have morals, journalists none. Wouldn’t put it past Muellar and his team of dirty lawyers who planned this. Just like Russia, Russia. Russia.

    mg (9e54f8)

  226. Bummer, DRJ. I complained about it once, but overall I enjoyed trying to get around it with alternative phrases. I was particularly proud of “lady of negotiable affection” in reference to soiled doves.

    nk (dbc370)

  227. there’s this guy at work that reminds me of shoggy

    his name is K- but we all call him craftsman cause he’s such a tool

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  228. The tv movie will have guy from heroes playing him in his younger years of course? They got Christian bale to play cheney.

    Narciso (d1f714)

  229. i saw that guy once at brazilian bbq he had this like harem with him but he can kinda pull that off cause he looks like a disney prince

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  230. the heroes guy not christian bale

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  231. That last revamp of heroes, good grief it’s like pet cementary

    Meanwhile Julian Castro removed all doubt.

    Narciso (d1f714)

  232. Why, he couldnt even get elected dog-catcher in Mission or some other god-forsaken RGV town.

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  233. if its that other kind of doubt your talking about, he should have been Sheldon Cooper’s secret half-bro, being Texas and all.

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  234. “Without evidence, Rep. Joaquin Castro (D-TX), a member of the House intelligence committee, said Jared Kushner might have passed a “hit list” to Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman resulting in the apparent brutal slaying of Washington Post journalist Jamal Khashoggi. Castro, during a CNN appearance Friday morning, cited unspecified “reporting that Jared Kushner may have, with U.S. intelligence, delivered a hit list, an enemies list, to the crown prince, to MBS, in Saudi Arabia and that the prince may have acted on that, and one of the people he took action against is Mr. Khashoggi.” “

    https://www.thedailybeast.com/democrat-joaquin-castro-accuses-jared-kushner-of-orchestrating-khashoggi-killing

    harkin (adce92)

  235. this whole shoggy soap opera just gets dumber and dumber

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  236. Here’s an interesting detail:

    https://mobile.twitter.com/EmreUslu

    narciso (d1f714)

  237. Jay Sekulow should trademark his hybrid NYC-Atlanta accent.

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  238. Good grief, harkin! Those people are deranged!

    nk (dbc370)

  239. Maybe thats the real/only reason Trump is sending troops down to the RGV, scoop up Julian C. be done with it and blame narcos for bonus points.

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  240. all i know is Velma and Daphne are super pissed off about this, but they haven’t heard any apple watch audio either

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  241. for them babbies i got this and this cause it’s halloween (halloween!)

    i’m being lazy/cheap and doing amazon

    last year i found something really tasty but shipping cost more than the candy and that’s not a good feeling

    last year remember i got those chocolate-dipped fritos from houston

    i’m still so jealous

    i didn’t get to try and they sounded like the best thing ever

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  242. Did you see the supernatural visit to the Scooby gang?

    Narciso (6f5c67)

  243. Yep harkin, even CNN stopped short of oozing down that rabbit hole… https://www.nationalreview.com/news/democratic-congressman-says-jared-kushner-possibly-orchestrated-khashoggi-death/

    Colonel Haiku (c8a9e1)

  244. no i stopped that show awhile ago it just got perplexing and the never-ending obnoxiousness of stupid dopey-looking charisma-free misha collins was kind of the last straw (he hates trump and it’s his whole life now)

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  245. Haiku – You can bet the MSM will memoryhole that disgusting smear when he or his brother Julian start maneuvering for the 2020 Dem nomination.

    CygnusAnalogMan (9c66ec)

  246. The latest news on the audio tape front is that a Turkish official (all claims by Turkish goverernment officials are done anonymously – there has not bene one official accusation yet)

    claimed that the tape was played to Secretary of State Mike Pompeo when he visited Turkey and a transcript gven to him. (Now how would that make sense? Does he understand Arabic?)

    Mike Pompeo has said that’s not true and criticized ABC for reporting it.

    https://abcnews.go.com/International/pompeo-listened-alleged-recording-murder-jamal-khashoggi-source/story?id=58595725

    “Secretary Pompeo has neither heard a tape nor has he seen a transcript related to Jamal Khashoggi’s disappearance,” said State Department spokeswoman Heather Nauert.

    Pompeo was asked later in the evening about the matter in a brief interview with reporters on a flight to Mexico City, part of a tour to Mexico and Panama.

    “I’ve heard no tape, I’ve seen no transcript,” Pompeo told reporters in the only question he would take on the topic. After initially declining to take questions on the matter in favor of questions regarding his trip, Pompeo denied ABC News’ report, calling it “factually false.”

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  247. Claims about the recording include the idea that the consul general objected and told them to do their work somewhere else or he would get into trouble, and he was told if he wanted to go back to Arabia and live he shoudl shut up (who outranbked him or has backing from someone who did?)

    He wss told to leave, or left the room, while the surgeon with the bone saw told the others remaining in the room to put on earphones and play music because that is what he did when doing his work. (presumably or hopefully meaning more standard autopsies.)

    The Turkish police searched the counsel general’s residence only after a delay of one day after they searche dthe consulate (they claimed to have found some freshly painetd rooms) The counsel general packed his bags and went back to Saudi Arabia before the search was done. They also returned that day or the next for a second look at the consulate. A van is supposed to have travelkled from the consulate to the consul general residence (about one mile away) about two hours afetr Khashoggi entered the consulate.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  248. Forget Scooby-Doo, this is Dexter territory now.

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  249. “…after they searched the consulate (they claimed to have found some freshly painted rooms”

    Painted with what, exactly?

    Colonel Haiku (c8a9e1)

  250. The NEw York times repoorts that the Saudis are geting ready to blame Major general Ahmed al=Assiri who it described as a high ranking associate of the Crown Prince.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/18/world/middleeast/jamal-khashoggi-killing-saudi-arabia.html

    This is probably not quite exactly right.

    What they might be trying to do is continue the official denials, but try to get across the belief that it is his guilt, and not that of the Crown Prince, that they are covering up.

    And let the U.S. put Global Magnitsky Act sanctions on him.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  251. I also heard some sort of a claim that Khashoggi’s body might be buried in some woods outside Istanbul. But it is far too late to take him to Fort Marcy Park and claim he committed suicide with an unknown gun.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  252. what is exactly not welcome anymore?

    I announced the rules in this post. Here is one of the key new rules that you violated:

    Personal attacks on commenters (or me) are out. Criticizing the arguments is fine. Criticizing the person is not.

    I don’t see that you commented on that post so perhaps you missed it. Now you’ve been told. Under that rule, a comment like this will no longer be tolerated:

    Once again you let your Trump-hatred blind you to the facts.

    You ask (and falsely assert):

    Pat, are you working up to banning me? If so, I’ll simply chalk it up to the fact that you have no answers to my questions.

    Here’s what I said in the post announcing the new rules:

    Violations will be handled according to my judgment and the judgment of moderators I trust. There will indeed be a sliding scale, depending on your track record.

    I had no intention of banning you, no. But the more you insult me and Dustin, and talk about the “fact” that I have “no answers” to your questions (an assertion which is untrue and which is one for which you have zero evidence, seeing as how you have literally no idea how much time I had to read and comment this morning before walking out the door), the more I’ll think about it.

    Do you consider Erdogan a good guy? A trustworthy source? Apparently so, from what you have written.

    That is a mischaracterization of my position which is also a violation of the rules I announced. It is absurd to claim I think Erdogan is a “good guy” and literally nothing I have said suggests that. I suggest you review the rules and lose the aggressive and personal attitude.

    While you’re busy doing that, apply the rule of charity and see if you can imagine any basis upon which a disinterested observer could conclude that the Turks are likely telling the truth. You can include statements from US officials, photographic evidence, and so forth.

    Am I privy to evidence you don’t know? Maybe, if I am reading more than you are. So do more reading and learn about the evidence as to which we need not assume Erdogan is a “good guy.”

    And stop the personal attacks.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  253. DRJ, as always you are an angel and a beacon of light and reason. But I’m not confused. Please understand, until I was in my mid forties and retired from the Navy I lived in a world of strict liability. When in command, an officer is responsible for everything that happens in his command. That was drilled into me as a child under the tutelage of my dad, the sainted Senior Chief. It’s a hard habit to break.

    The way I look at it, Pat is the skipper of this blog. He certified you as his OOD underway (officer of the deck). Whatever you did was with his approval, explicit or tacit.

    Moreover, I’m not criticizing that decision. I think it was a reasonable call.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  254. There is also a claim in a Turkish newspaper that one of the 15 men, an pilot, has died in saudi Arabia in atraffic accident.

    First, an article showing he was listed (this is all unofficial government sponsored leaks, by the way – they all have to be government sponsored because Erdogan now control all Turkish newspapers.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/10/world/middleeast/jamal-khashoggi-saudi-turkey.html

    One of the men on the list published by the newspaper, Sabah, is an autopsy expert at Saudi Arabia’s internal security agency, according to the two Turkish officials. Another appears to be a lieutenant in the Royal Saudi Air Force. The officials, citing confidential intelligence, said all worked for the Saudi government…

    ..The Times found corroborating information about two of the men — the lieutenant and the autopsy expert — by comparing the names and photographs in Sabah, the newspaper, with social media profiles and Saudi media reports…

    Another Saudi identified in Sabah, Meshal Saad al-Bostani, appears to be a Saudi Air Force lieutenant who was born in 1987. A photograph of a man at the airport appears to match photos on the Facebook profile of a man with the same name who says he studied at the University of Louisville.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  255. Now there’s areport – originating only in a Turkish newspaper I think – that Meshal Saad al-Bostani is dead:

    https://nypost.com/2018/10/18/saudi-who-arrived-in-turkey-day-of-khashoggi-disappearance-dies-in-traffic-accident/

    One of the 15 Saudis who arrived in Turkey the same day Jamal Khashoggi disappeared has died in a “suspicious traffic accident” and the Saudi consul in Istanbul could be the “next execution,” according to Turkish media reports.

    Mashal Saad al-Bostani, 31, a lieutenant in the Saudi Royal Air Forces, was among the 15-member “hit team” that landed in Istanbul in two private jets from Riyadh on Oct. 2 and headed to the Saudi consulate.

    He died in a car crash in Riyadh, but few details have emerged, the newspaper Yeni Safak reported, adding that his role in the “murder” was not clear.

    He would have been the pilot of the second plane, carrying back the body parts to Saudi Arabia. But now, was he there that day, and is he in fact dead?

    The Saudi consul, Mohammad al-Otaibi, who was heard on a video recording of Khashoggi being killed and dismembered in the consulate, could be the “next execution,” as Saudi Crown Prince Mohammad bin Salman “would do anything to get rid of the evidence,” the Hurriyet Daily News said Thursday…

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  256. Actually we moved on to lethal weapon 2, Rasputin dispatching by the yusopovs and scandal with the general,

    Narciso (6f5c67)

  257. The Shape I’m In (Khashoggi’s Blues) Teh Band

    Go out yonder, Bekka Valley
    Istanbul, have to rumble in the alley
    Oh, you don’t know the shape I’m in

    Has anybody seen my fingers
    These phantom pains are startin’ to linger
    Oh, you don’t know the shape I’m in

    I’m gonna go down by teh sand dune
    But I ain’t gonna lay down no, no
    I’ll just be lookin’ for my briefcase
    And I hear that that’s where it’s been… Oh!

    Out of nine lives, I spent seven
    Now, how many virgins are waitin’ in Heaven?
    Oh, you don’t know the shape I’m in

    I just spent sixty days in teh Kingdom
    And they told me to get out, no no
    Now here I am cut up in little pieces
    For the crime of leavin’ much too slow, oh!

    Save your neck or save your brother’s
    Had no chance to say goodbye to my mother
    Oh, you don’t know the shape I’m in

    Colonel Haiku (c8a9e1)

  258. There is no (redacted) tape the Turkish foreign minister admits It, now back to your hookah break

    I admit as with Jimmy Hoffa, he is mostly likely very dead but after that it’s magic eightball time.

    Narciso (6f5c67)

  259. “Without evidence, Rep. Joaquin Castro (D-TX), a member of the House intelligence committee, said Jared Kushner might have passed a “hit list” to Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman resulting in the apparent brutal slaying of Washington Post journalist Jamal Khashoggi. Castro, during a CNN appearance Friday morning, cited unspecified “reporting that Jared Kushner may have, with U.S. intelligence, delivered a hit list, an enemies list, to the crown prince, to MBS, in Saudi Arabia and that the prince may have acted on that, and one of the people he took action against is Mr. Khashoggi.” “

    That’s story from last year, probably leaked by the Saudi government and also untrue.

    Jared Kushner met with Prince Mohammd bin Salman about aweek before he asrrested a lot of promiment Saudis and pocke dthem up in teh Ritz Carlton, shortly after the first Davos in the Desert conference had ended.

    MbS probably did get approval (or lack of opposition) to a crackdown on corruption. It is illogical to suppose that Jared Kushner told him who to arrest, por approved of arbitrary arrests, but it is very logical that the Crown Prince would try to convince everybody that the U.S. endorsed what he was doing.

    https://www.thedailybeast.com/democrat-joaquin-castro-accuses-jared-kushner-of-orchestrating-khashoggi-killing
    harkin (adce92) — 10/19/2018 @ 9:56 am

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  260. While Mnuchin cancelled his aapearance at the second annual Davos in the Desert investment or wahtever conference he is still travelling to Saudi Arabia because a second purpose of his trip was to discuss co-operation in stopping money laundering in support of terrroism.

    Like if anybody should beleive anything coming out of the saudi government.

    It is very easy to interfere with support for terrorism and stop terrorist plots if you initiated it in the first place.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  261. 260. Narciso (6f5c67) — 10/19/2018 @ 12:30 pm

    There is no (redacted) tape the Turkish foreign minister admits It, now back to your hookah break

    No, what the Turkish Foreign Minister said (probably after official U.S. complaints) was that they hadn’t shared any tape, not that none existed.

    The only way Khashoggi could have been responsible for any recording using his iWatch, is if he had the password to the Saudi consultae’s Wi-Fi (not absolutely impossible – he had many friends, and if the Turkish government had the password he could have gotten it from them too.

    But he would also have had had to be familiar with using iWatch that way, too, and Rush Limbaugh says most iWatch owners don’t know about thsi capability, and he would have had to have entered the password manually on his iWatch using hand or finger drawing – and Rush Limbaugh said that is difficult to do, and you often get the wrong letters and have to backtrack.

    Again, not to mention that few people know about it.

    Besides, if he was so suspicious, why enter the consulate? Also why not tell his fiance so she could call for help if he didn’t get out quick.

    Khashoggi had been told that he could pick up his proof of divorce at 1 pm – it had finally arrived. Some of his friends were worried about this type of thing. He poo-poohed any fears of entering the Saudi embassy in Washington (he was being warned about that) and said about the people in Istanbul that they are ordinary Saudis. Which was true, except it appears some special people went into the consulate that day. They knew he was coming of course.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  262. I don’t think the reaction is proceeding too slow.

    It took the Austro-Hungarian government about four weeks till they issued an ultimaticm to the Serbian government after the murder of Archduke Franz Ferdinand in 1914. We’re still less than three weeks into this.

    I think the responsibility of te serbian government, and/or the Russian government, for the assassination of Austrian Archduke Franz Ferdinand has not been established till this day.

    Incidentl,y the only reason that resulted in the outbreak of a European War (and indeed a World War) is that the German goernment lied to the Austro-Hungarian government, saying it would not result in a European war, while all along their secret – I stress secret – military plans called for invading France, violating Belguim’s neutrality in the process, if Russia mobilized. Russia had no mobilization plan just against Austria.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  263. The similarity to American organzied crime should not be that strange.

    All Saudi royals wear a head covering with a black halo, just like American organized crime figures did until after Jack Ruby killed Lee Harvey Oawald, while wearing such a “Mafia hat.”

    Khashoggi’s black halo, is somewhat rumpled in the picture I have seen.

    There’s a direct connection too.

    One of the founders of what was popularly called “Murder Inc” was Meyer Lansky. In the 1970s, when he libved in Miami, a lawyer named Alvin Malnik was often described by the Miami papers and others as Meyer Lansky’s successor. He specialized in money laundering.

    After his car was bombed in 1983 after Meyer Lansky died, he left for Saudi Arabia. He returned a few years later, but then his son, Mark Malnik, moved to Saudi Arabia, converted to Islam, and married into in laws of the royal family. (the sister-in-law of Prince Turki bin Abdul Aziz, one of teh Sudairi Seven.) All without divorcing his American wife by the way. Or maybe actually Mark went there before. Al Malnik may also have converted to Islam while in Saudi Arabia.

    Alvin Malnik, a little over 80 years old now, is quite respectable today. He was executor of Michael Jackson’s will.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  264. Pat, you are correct. I missed that post. Also your link to the rules doesn’t work. Error 404.

    From what is available for me to read my habit of trying to restate someone’s argument in order to make sure I have understood it correctly can constitute a “mischaracterization” or a “personal attack” either of which are a violation of the rules.

    Do you consider Erdogan a good guy? A trustworthy source? Apparently so, from what you have written.

    That is a mischaracterization of my position which is also a violation of the rules I announced. It is absurd to claim I think Erdogan is a “good guy” and literally nothing I have said suggests that.

    I wasn’t claiming anything other than how things appeared (apparently) to me. How am I supposed to understand your statement, “If the Turks provide the proof, this (the Global Magnitsky Act) looks like an appropriate sanction” other than to state how it appears to me, that you think what Erdogan produces (is it controversial to point out that no Turks independent of Erdogan will be providing anything) as proof is reliable, if I don’t ask?

    A source you cited, Browder, wrote:

    If the Turkish reports are confirmed, then we in the West must act.

    How is anyone supposed confirm the Turkish reports if they don’t have access to the alleged crime scene? The Saudi Ministry of Justice is also conducting an inquiry. How are we supposed to determine which one is correct? Or perhaps neither are correct? Why bring up Global Magnitsky Act sanctions if we are incapable of confirming either countries reports? This is not a personal attack, this is asking for clarification.

    While you’re busy doing that, apply the rule of charity and see if you can imagine any basis upon which a disinterested observer could conclude that the Turks are likely telling the truth.

    I don’t need to imagine. I explained my reasons why Erdogan can’t be trusted. Erdogan fancies himself the new Ottoman Emperor and therefore a rival to the Saudi monarchy. Did you read what I wrote?

    Am I privy to evidence you don’t know? Maybe, if I am reading more than you are. So do more reading…

    I do a lot of reading. I may do more reading than you. On the other hand I may not. But no matter how much I read I may not be reading what you are reading. Which is why I laid out what I know, and asked you if you are privy to facts that I’m not aware of. How is that a personal attack? It’s a sincere question, “Do you know anything different than this?”

    In all honesty, what in my world is engaging someone’s argument appears per your new rules to be a personal attack.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  265. The Serbian black hand was being backed by the foreign branch of the okrana, the Rankin agentura (I learned that from Tim powers declare, which is a hefty tome) the Soviets sent an envoy to the kingdom in the 30s, one of the best studies of that period was from vasdiliev.

    Narciso (6f5c67)

  266. There’s a report that Prince Bandar’s daughter, Princess Reema bint Bandar, might become the new Saudi Ambassador to the United States.

    https://qz.com/1426440/khashoggi-fallout-next-saudi-ambassador-to-us-could-be-princess-reema/

    This would almost be first and could be part of Prince Mohammed bin Salman’s attempts to show himself a reformer.

    I don’t know, this could be a sign that Prince Bandar is back in favor.

    I think that Prince Bandar bin Sultan (born 1949) probably murdered Vincent Foster and then went to the White House for help and Bill Clinton agreed, and also that, while head of Saudi intelligence, engineered the death of the U.S. Ambassador to Libya in 2012, Christopher Stevens.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  267. Sammy, you need no wifi or Bluetooth for an Apple Watch to work, just buy the one with an LTE modem. You can make calls, take calls, run apps, all completely remotely. Unless their jamming cell signals, doubtful since people are talking on their cell phones by the front door this very minute, or they locked him in a SCIF then it would work just fine. Their OpSec seems to be horrible anyway, like they wanted to get caught to send a message that they don’t care. It remains to be seen if that will be a long-term mistake, but it’s not working our great in the meantime.

    Colonel Klink (a57af6)

  268. narciso @267.

    The Serbian black hand was being backed by the foreign branch of the okrana, the Rankin agentura (I learned that from Tim powers declare, which is a hefty tome) the Soviets sent an envoy to the kingdom in the 30s, one of the best studies of that period was from vasdiliev.

    There seem to be all sorts of indications of official Serbian and even Russian government involvement, although the Russian government didn’t make it into this article:.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Archduke_Franz_Ferdinand

    The plan now was to murder Franz Ferdinand, and Mehmedbašić should stand by for the new operation.[29] (Apis confessed to the Serbian Court that he ordered the assassination of Franz Ferdinand in his position as head of the Intelligence Department.)[30

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  269. Another precedent of the United States (and Great britain) having abad ally is François Darlan in North Africa.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  270. I think King Salman probably put Prince Mohammed in charge because he thought he wasa tough minded.

    This is not so out of what he thought ews his character.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  271. Coireetion: This says MArk MAlnik did get divorced before marrying Hoda.

    https://people.com/archive/tales-from-an-arabian-nightmare-vol-19-no-18/

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  272. I didn’t learn about apis connection to Russia till I read max hastings.

    Narciso (6f5c67)

  273. …You ask (and falsely assert):

    Pat, are you working up to banning me? If so, I’ll simply chalk it up to the fact that you have no answers to my questions.

    Here’s what I said in the post announcing the new rules…

    Violations will be handled according to my judgment and the judgment of moderators I trust. There will indeed be a sliding scale, depending on your track record.

    I had no intention of banning you, no. But the more you insult me and Dustin, and talk about the “fact” that I have “no answers” to your questions (an assertion which is untrue and which is one for which you have zero evidence…

    Do you consider Erdogan a good guy? A trustworthy source? Apparently so, from what you have written.

    Wouldn’t the simple way to resolve this involve answering my questions or even acknowledging I had already asked questions? You’re correct; I have no idea how much time you have. But I asked if you were considering banning me after you had responded to me twice, telling me I was out of line. That one question you answered. It seemed to me then, and seems to me still, that if you had time to respond twice about my comments you also had time to acknowledge I had asked substantive questions about your arguments. As it stands I still don’t know what you think about Erdogan and his reliability. Which is a central issue if this Congress is actually demanding that we impose Global Manitsky Act sanctions on anybody based up what he offers the world as proof.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  274. here Mr. nk stumbled on this today

    the one it pays homage to looks west so that was a neat choice to make, to look east

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  275. Breaing per CNN; the cost of doing business: Saudis announce Khashoggi dead in ‘fist fight’ [cutting blows?!]; dismiss general ‘fall guy’; detain 18 Saudi nationals; form a committee; give themselves a month to write a report.

    Sand script.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  276. Didn’t even have the intestinal fortitude to stonewall until the furor went away. Osama bin Laden was right. Without America propping them up, the house of Saud would collapse and blow away like a sand dune in the Rub’ al Khali. There’s no there there.

    nk (dbc370)

  277. sounds like that settles that Mr. DCSCA

    done and done

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  278. i can’t believe shoggi’s really gone HOW AM I SUPPOSED TO LIVE WITHOUT YOU

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  279. It will be a John Meyer, with Taylor swift lyrics.

    Narciso (d1f714)

  280. Steve57,

    First: the link is fixed. Please click it and read the rules. I expect you to follow them from this point forward.

    From what is available for me to read my habit of trying to restate someone’s argument in order to make sure I have understood it correctly can constitute a “mischaracterization” or a “personal attack” either of which are a violation of the rules.

    Actually, your first offense was saying this:

    Once again you let your Trump-hatred blind you to the facts.

    In fact, I was perfectly clear that this was your first offense. Very, very clear. So clear that I find it hard to believe that you missed it. So now, given that you claim to have missed the fact that was my primary problem, I am going to ensure that you signal that you understand it. Here’s how I am going to do that:

    In your next published comment, I want you to acknowledge that you have read the rules and that you understand why that comment violates the rules, and tell me that you won’t do it again.

    There’s a lot else I could say, but let’s start with that. Keep it simple and don’t stray from the subject. I’ll moderate you to make sure that your next published comment complies with my request.

    Why am I going to these lengths? Because I am the host. It irritates the hell out of me to be ignored. I made it very, very clear that I did not appreciate that comment and you have done nothing to acknowledge what I said or explain that you understand the problem and that it won’t happen again. Instead, you’re pretending that your only offense was attempting to restate my argument and screwing that up.

    So, consider this my virtual way of putting my hands on your head, holding you still, making you look me in the eye, and telling you that it is now time to pay attention to what I am saying, and to show me that you’re paying attention.

    I hate doing this, but I hate it worse when I try to set a clear rule and I am ignored.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  281. I’ll address your other points once we have this issue resolved, and not before.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  282. Now we’ll see what actually turned out to be True, khashoggi was a dilletante rather than a committed revolutionary.

    Many of the kings entourage was young said qahtani among them, general asiri was the relatively seasoned fellow like,Rowan pope

    Narciso (d1f714)

  283. The murder of Thomas a’ Beckett was a similar SNAFU, wasn’t it? Except then it was the Vatican and interdict and now it’s America and Magnitsky Act sanctions, and the hallowed ground was a church and not a consulate.

    nk (dbc370)

  284. what would be really kind and loving would be if Beto would play air bagpipes mournfully as shoggi’s spirit drifts aloft into the waiting embrace of allah (islam deity)

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  285. Saudi Arabia is an absolute monarchy. If the King orders a subject killed while on Saudi soil, is it murder? Or just one of the reasons why absolute monarchies are terrible places to live?

    Hitler committed no murders!

    Stalin: no murders!

    Mao: no murders!

    Sweet!

    Patterico (115b1f)

  286. Yes you could ask Prince Aziz about that, or allegedly general qahtani I wonder if he was related to said.

    Narciso (d1f714)

  287. Actually, your first offense was saying this:

    Once again you let your Trump-hatred blind you to the facts.

    In fact, I was perfectly clear that this was your first offense. Very, very clear. So clear that I find it hard to believe that you missed it.

    No, I didn’t miss it. I was prompted to comment on this thread by your derisive comments about “Trumpers.” I hadn’t read the new rules. You say that no personal attacks are allowed. Yet you kicked off this thread with personal attacks against “Trumpers.”

    It’s OK, though, I’m told by the Trumpers, because in his numerous columns advocating democracy, pluralism, women’s rights, free speech, and the like, Khashoggi also wrote one supporting the Muslim Brotherhood.

    I figured that was directed at me. I was compelled to respond that while I was on the same side as the so called “Trumpers” you were mischaracterizing my reasons for doing so (didn’t you commit a violation of your own rules). I don’t read the WaPo. My opinions have nothing to do with what appears on the rag’s op-ed pages.

    See Jen Rubin “center-right” columnist for further details.

    [This comment does not appear because it does not comply with the conditions I set for your next published comment. Try again. As a reminder, here are the conditions:

    “In your next published comment, I want you to acknowledge that you have read the rules and that you understand why that comment violates the rules, and tell me that you won’t do it again.”

    If you can’t do that, I’m happy to show you the door. I am done with people giving me personal lectures about how I’m not Trumpy enough for them ergo I am x, y, or z.

    Meanwhile, I am allowed to talk about “Trumpers” because it’s not a personal attack on any particular commenter here. If you think it was about you, I recommend the song “You’re So Vain” by Carly Simon.]

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  288. But yes, I understand what your primary problem was. What I don’t understand is why you don’t model the behavioral code you want others to follow.

    [This comment does not comply with the requirements and will not appear.

    Show me where I personally attacked a commenter who did not attack me first.]

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  289. Steve57 is having a very difficult time understanding this comment. Anybody want to explain it to him? He may never have a comment appear here again if he can’t follow the instructions in that comment and certify that he is willing to follow the rules of the blog.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  290. I have, BTW, read your rules at the fixed link. I’m a little scatterbrained as I’m on Naproxin and that’s one of the side effects. But I honestly don’t understand where the line is drawn. And my confusion isn’t helped by your statement that it’s a sliding scale.

    I’m not trying to be difficult. I really want to understand.

    [Personal attacks are not judged on a sliding scale. The penalty for personal attacks is. Which do you need clarification on?

    Generally I have never had a problem with you until today. But you are being incredibly pig-headed and refusing to agree to my demand that you acknowledge that your comment violated the rules, and pledge not to do it again. People can say “I hate NeverTrumpers” but the moment they call me or another commenter a NeverTrumper that is a personal attack. I can deride Trumpers but if I attack someone personally as a Trumper I should do better. Can you point to such an example?]

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  291. Thanks for ridiculing me and making sure I can’t respond. Is this the example you set when you claim your objective is to abolish personal attacks?

    [I made a very clear demand for your next comment to publish. I repeated it again since. Do you understand what it is? Do you think it is unfair for me to require you to follow the rules of the blog? Are you the one commenter who gets to defy them?

    The moment you comply with my very fair demand, you can respond. Do you need me to repeat it a third time?

    And I’m not ridiculing you. I literally have no idea whether you are reading my replies to your moderated comments, so I left a new comment to make sure you saw it.]
    .

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  292. he’s very dear to me, Mr. 57 is

    i just wanted to say that

    cause he’s really special

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  293. Steve57,

    I am replying to you in your numerous moderated comments. I have no idea if you are seeing your responses.

    I’ll repeat, yet again, for the third time, the requirement you must meet for your next comment to be published:

    In your next published comment, I want you to acknowledge that you have read the rules and that you understand why that comment violates the rules, and tell me that you won’t do it again.

    There’s a lot else I could say, but let’s start with that. Keep it simple and don’t stray from the subject. I’ll moderate you to make sure that your next published comment complies with my request.

    You have not done this. If you ever want to comment here again, you must. It’s just that simple. I am requiring you to certify that you will follow the rules of the blog. You do not get to be the only person who defies them.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  294. You have left something like a dozen comments since I informed you of this, and not one of them complies.

    I’m not sure if you’re being willfully defiant or if you’re just oddly repeatedly overlooking the requirement.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  295. [I made a very clear demand for your next comment to publish. I repeated it again since. Do you understand what it is? Do you think it is unfair for me to require you to follow the rules of the blog? Are you the one commenter who gets to defy them?

    o abide by them. Clearly saying you are under the influence of Trump hatred is over the line per these rules. But I don’t understand how questioning Erdogan’s reliability is outside the the limits. Especially now that the Saudis have issued their, as you put it, absurd finding. Does this mean we simply accept what Erdogan puts out as the truth?

    If there are “t”s I haven’t crossed or “i”s I haven’t dotted I regret it. I’ve enjoyed commenting here and I don’t think I’ve been vicious.

    [So close! One thing at a time. Forget point #2. You said: “Clearly saying you are under the influence of Trump hatred is over the line per these rules.”

    And?

    Are you going to do it again?

    If not, can you in one comment say what I asked? You read and understand the rules, you see how your comment about me was a violation, and you won’t do it again.]

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  296. Which do you need clarification on?

    When does engaging the argument become a personal attack?

    [Never. Please comply with what I asked I full.]

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  297. This is exhausting. I am going to bed.

    Patterico (44ba8e)

  298. Not that it’s here or there but, after five-plus years on the outside, I decided to re-join the Republican Party because I'd rather work and write from within. The bamsticked-from-RedState Jay Caruso finally tipped it for me. I’ll be a proponent for ethics, free trade, fiscal conservatism, an effective military, a forward pro-US foreign policy, protection of life, and negotiated solutions on immigration, healthcare, entitlements and taxes.

    Paul Montagu (8d2328)

  299. So you’re asking for total unconditional surrender. No terms. You’ve laid out that you yourself have admitted is a sliding scale of vagueries. You refuse to answer a simple question.

    When does engaging the argument become a personal attack?

    [Never. Please comply with what I asked I full.]

    I imagine you think you’re being the reasonable one here. You know what, Pat, you’re not worth it.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMMceEx72sE

    Navy Carrier Squadrons “Move Along”

    Move this video along. Paint me in the worst light. I’m a big boy, I can take it. But for the sake of VAW-113. Full disclosure, I’m an honorary Hormel Hog, VAW-114. Use it to claim I quit the fight. Everyone who knows me knows I never quit a damn thing in my life. At least, not anything worth having. I don’t fight over vanity items. This ground is yours, Pat. Enjoy it.

    [Am I demanding unconditional surrender, or am I demanding that you agree that you will follow the rules and promise not to attack me personally again like you did tonight?

    I wrote a long response to you on the substance and it is sitting in a browser tab. I figured you’d immediately say: hey man, I see I attacked you and that does violate your rules and I won’t do it again, and I would publish that comment and get the real discussion going. Instead, I have wasted something like an hour of my life in an apparently pointless attempt to get you to agree to follow my rules. Then and only then will I have further discussion. And you won’t do it. Well, I can’t make you, but I can keep you from commenting until you do. And I will. You are being unbelievably and pointlessly stubborn. Literally everyone has to follow these rules. Literally anyone who does not will get called on the carpet. I never had a problem with you but neither will I except you from the rules. Now I am going to bed. What a waste of time this has been.]

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  300. Hitler committed no murders!

    Stalin: no murders!

    Mao: no murders!

    None of these people were absolute monarchs, legally. They were heads of states that promised rights and some form of due process to their citizens. When they ignored the forms and ACTED like monarchs, they were committing crimes by the rules of their own system.

    Was Henry VIII a murderer for having Anne Boleyn beheaded?

    Kevin M (d6cbf1)

  301. Steve57 is apparently unwilling to say he will follow the rules of the blog. I have to go to bed. Tomorrow I will think about releasing all his comments in this thread so people can see all the time and pointless effort I put in trying to get him to say one simple thing: “I will avoid personal insults in the future.” It has been a tremendous waste of time and I deeply resent it. So I may show you the whole frustrating thing.

    Patterico (44ba8e)

  302. When narciso pulled a stunt like this I gave him a month off, I think. I may do that with Steve57 instead of a lifetime ban. But he is being so willfully defiant and playing so dumb, maybe not. We’ll see.

    Patterico (44ba8e)

  303. It is my fervent hope that you and yours receive all the blessings that the good Lord allows in this life, Pat. And in the next.

    [You wasted my evening.]

    [And I spent so much time trying to explain this to you because I liked you and thought you were reasonable. Now I feel like a fool for spending all that time on you.]

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  304. My two cents about Steve57, P, he went personal with me right off the bat, more than once. I decided right then and there not to waste my time.

    Paul Montagu (8d2328)

  305. Henry VIII did not have Anne Boleyn beheaded. She was tried by a jury of Peers which included her former fiance and her uncle (her father was on it too, initially, but was forced to recuse himself), and found guilty of high treason, adultery and incest, partly on the testimony (admittedly obtained through torture) of her brother. What Henry did was import a master swordsman from France for the execution instead of subjecting her to the common executioner’s ax.

    nk (dbc370)

  306. You think good will come of this I don’t, I think Prince Salman ‘handed them a sword’ and the true enemies, the ones who have left a blood trail from Iraq to Tunisia will benefit.

    Narciso (d1f714)

  307. 🤔

    Dustin (15aa1d)

  308. (that was an illustration of Anne Boleyn)

    Dustin (15aa1d)

  309. Rawhide My Bride

    Boleyn, Boleyn, Boleyn,
    Boleyn, Boleyn, Boleyn,
    Boleyn, Boleyn, Boleyn,
    Boleyn, Boleyn, Boleyn,

    My Bride!

    H’yah! H’yah!

    Ann Boleyn, Boleyn, Boleyn,
    Soon her head is rollin,
    She’s no longer charmin’, My bride!
    Through rain and wind and weather,
    Hell bent for leather,
    Wanting a new girl by my side,
    All the things I’m missin’
    Good fiddles, love and kissin’,
    Are waiting at the end of my Bride.

    felipe (023cc9)

  310. [This is a comment I had sitting in a tab for hours waiting for Steve57 to say he would follow my rules. He never did. Since I went to the effort of typing it out, I may as well go ahead and publish it now.]

    As for your long comment above, Steve57, now that my day has ended and I have some time to respond:

    I acknowledge in the post that Khashoggi is an Islamist, which is different from a jihadist. You don’t really address the fact that he has openly espoused many Western ideas, such as pluralism, women’s rights, and so forth. You seem to be falling hook, line, and sinker for the Trumpist smear campaign that suggests Khashoggi had it coming, ignoring his support of liberalism and seizing desperately on his very old relationship with bin Laden (which he abandoned when bin Laden became violent) and his support of the Muslim Brotherhood (but as I have pointed out, Ayaan Hirsi Ali attended their meetings, and Maajid Nawaz was once a revolutionary Islamist.

    You also are spouting Saudi propaganda that suggests that we have to completely trust Erdogan, when I gave you a link that you appear to have completely ignored showing that our own intelligence analysts have concluded that there is circumstantial evidence MBS was behind this.

    If you’re actually falling for the story the Saudis are putting out tonight, that there was a fistfight that broke out among Khashoggi and over a dozen high-level security folks close to MBS acting totally without his knowledge, then you’re beyond hope.

    Where is the body??

    Patterico (115b1f)

  311. I released all of Steve57’s comments. Begin at 283 and read my appendations to his comments thereafter, as well as my own comments.

    I spent the entire time trying to get him to comply with the following:

    In your next published comment, I want you to acknowledge that you have read the rules and that you understand why that comment violates the rules, and tell me that you won’t do it again.

    There’s a lot else I could say, but let’s start with that. Keep it simple and don’t stray from the subject. I’ll moderate you to make sure that your next published comment complies with my request.

    Unless “o abide by them” meant “I understand what I did wrong and I won’t do it again” then he never did.

    I went through the same thing with narciso. He made a bullshit accusation against me. I asked him to retract it and he sort of amiably ignored me until I decided to moderate him for a month. As with Steve57, I spent something like one or two dozen comments trying to get narciso to issue a very simple retraction and he was like a brick wall, never refusing to but seeming not to understand the English language suddenly.

    I have always liked Steve57 and never had a problem with him before yesterday. I will not ban him forever; the “sliding scale” that he claims is so confusing simply means that long-time commenters like him get a pass when I would ban other people for the same behavior.

    Steve57 can end this right now, right this very moment, by complying with the rules and stating clearly that he has read them, understands them, understands how he violated them by saying “[o]nce again you let your Trump-hatred blind you to the facts,” and says he will not do it again.

    Then we could begin the discussion of how he also pissed me off by misstating my argument. But he wants to skip over the requirements I set forth and jump to what he wants to talk about. That is not happening. So he remains moderated for a month or until he complies.

    By the way, don’t expect him to comply. As you can see, he appears to have flounced. As things stand, with him refusing to follow the rules of this blog, that means one less guy talking about my Trump hatred on this site I pay for. I’ll do my best to smile through the tears!

    Patterico (115b1f)

  312. My two cents about Steve57, P, he went personal with me right off the bat, more than once. I decided right then and there not to waste my time.

    He was a dick to Dustin in this thread too. I’m starting to wonder why I expended so much energy to keep him around.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  313. If you had a head and a dog, it would be Mary Queen of Scots.

    urbanleftbehind (847a06)

  314. My two cents about Steve57 is that he was very kind and would often stop on the side of the road to help minority families change a flat tire

    in the rain

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  315. OT, no one won Mega Millions last night. If it keeps rolling over to a Tuesday November 6th drawing of perhaps 500 B or even one T dollars, which party does that help, hurt or no big effect?

    urbanleftbehind (847a06)

  316. everyone what didn’t buy a ticket won the mega millions last night

    congratulations you guys

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  317. but yes you have a point

    these dirty caravan migrants and the tawdry lotto spectacle are sucking a lot of CNN Jake Tapper fake news media oxygen away from the ginned-up and increasingly convoluted shoggi drama

    plus, mid-terms

    and nobody’s casting a vote cause of anything having to do with shoggi (shoggi himself couldn’t even vote cause he was a foreigner who was not familiar with our ways and customs)

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  318. oopers *midterms* i mean

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  319. Steve57 can end this right now, right this very moment, by complying with the rules and stating clearly that he has read them, understands them, understands how he violated them by saying “[o]nce again you let your Trump-hatred blind you to the facts,” and says he will not do it again.

    I believe I have complied concerning this statement. And I have read the rules now that you fixed the link. Clearly questioning your motive was over the line. But I can’t say that I understand the rules if you won’t tell me when engaging someone’s argument crosses into the ad hominem.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  320. As I have said multiple times, I want to first deal with your nasty comment about my alleged Trump hatred. I will have the discussion with you about the rest of it, but first you must 1) acknowledge you have read the rules (done), say you understand that you are not to engage in personal attacks (done) and say you will not engage I personal attacks again (I cannot find this).

    Do the part you have not done and then we can discuss the other rules.

    As I have already said. Many times.

    Patterico (44ba8e)

  321. Shoggi was an even closer match to the Sal Bass character from Seinfeld than Salman Rushdie. Real and spectacular isn’t always worth it.

    urbanleftbehind (57335c)

  322. CIA officials have listened to an audio recording that Turkish officials say proves the journalist was killed and dismembered by a team of Saudi agents inside the consulate, according to people familiar with the matter. If verified, the recording would make it difficult for the White House to accept the Saudi version that Khashoggi’s death was effectively an accident

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/saudi-claims-that-khashoggi-died-in-a-brawl-draw-immediate-skepticism/2018/10/19/e10d4186-d3ef-11e8-83d6-291fcead2ab1_story.html

    Patterico (44ba8e)

  323. i don’t trust the sleazy washington post to report honestly on this

    and if the dirty nevertrump cia’s involved then it’s even worse

    you can’t trust any of these people!

    they’re all very very corrupt and they have their own agenda

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  324. I know let’s label any source that is not Trump or Trump-friendly as corrupt and not trustworthy. That way we can go through life as uninformed morons spouting shit propaganda.

    Patterico (44ba8e)

  325. Anyone who believes the Saudi story may be too stupid to breathe.

    Patterico (44ba8e)

  326. i believe the Saudi story as much as anybody actually believed the Christine Ford story

    maybe a little more even

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  327. Sun Tzu:

    “If words of command are not clear and distinct, if orders are not thoroughly understood, then the general is to blame. But, if orders are clear and the soldiers nevertheless disobey, then it is the fault of their oficers.”

    Your words are not clear to me.

    As I understand your requirements, I am to:

    1. State I have read the rules.
    2. State I understand the rules.
    3. “I will avoid personal insults in the future.”

    Working backward, I have avoided personal insults in the past and will continue to do so. Boy, have resisted the temptation that I so wanted to give in to. I have at some times failed, but we human beings are fallen creatures. And I would be lying to you if I said I understand the rules when I do not. But no. 1 I have read them.

    What I find problematic is I questioned you on certain matters; do you think x, do you think y? Then I drew a conclusion. “Apparently so,” as in, “it appears to me.” You called this a mischaracterization and a violation of the rules.

    At that point I’m at total loss. But you go further.

    It’s your blog. I read you wasted a weekend evening on me. Don’t waste any more time on me. You’ll regret it on your death bed. Spend it with your family. I bear you no ill will.
    vi

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  328. Patterico, I admire your willingness to “let the chips fall where they may.” This business of believing pretty much anything “your side” says is terrible. I know it is not new.

    But it’s like a good question: what could XX do that would make you remove your support for XX? Replace XX with Trump, Obama, etc.

    On the Right, I hear “the alternative is worse” and on the Left “my side no matter what.” Again, I know this isn’t new. But it makes me sad.

    I don’t want to derail the thread, but it is like asking a conservative what Democrat would be acceptable as a Supreme Court Justice or even President. Remember how Schumer waiting about fifteen minutes before objecting to Kavanaugh? To him, it clearly didn’t matter. Team D, all the way.

    So I will go back to reading Augustine’s “City of God” to get perspective.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  329. Working backward, I have avoided personal insults in the past and will continue to do so.

    Not every time. “Once again you let your Trump-hatred blind you to the facts.”

    What I find problematic is I questioned you on certain matters; do you think x, do you think y? Then I drew a conclusion. “Apparently so,” as in, “it appears to me.” You called this a mischaracterization and a violation of the rules.

    It was. You concluded that I think Erdogan is a “good guy.” I never said anything to remotely imply that. That was you letting your Trump-love blind you to the facts. (Hey, I’m not insulting you! I have avoided personal insults in the past and will continue to do so!) Because you love you some Trump, you decided to try to win the argument by misstating mine. It is perfectly obvious, as I have stated many times in this thread, that there is evidence that American intelligence agents find convincing. We don’t have to depend on Erdogan. Only someone like you, who can’t think straight because you’re a Trump-humper (Hey, I’m not insulting you! I have avoided personal insults in the past and will continue to do so!) would choose a cheap way to try to win the argument by twisting the clear words of my position into a dishonest accusation that I think Erdogan is a good guy. Stop blowing Trump; it’s distorting your thinking processes. (Hey, I’m not insulting you! I have avoided personal insults in the past and will continue to do so!)

    This has been a piece of performance art, to cause you to realize what it’s like to have someone personally attack you and then pretend they didn’t, as you have done this entire thread.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  330. I’m not insulting you! I have avoided personal insults in the past and will continue to do so!

    Patterico (115b1f)

  331. As I understand your requirements, I am to:

    1. State I have read the rules.
    2. State I understand the rules.
    3. “I will avoid personal insults in the future.”

    State that you understand that you are not to engage in personal attacks, like “Once again you let your Trump-hatred blind you to the facts.” Never say anything like that to me again, or you are history. Is that clear enough??

    Patterico (115b1f)

  332. State that you understand that you are not to engage in personal attacks, like “Once again you let your Trump-hatred blind you to the facts.” Never say anything like that to me again, or you are history. Is that clear enough??

    Yes, it’s clear. I have already admitted that was over the line.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  333. Yes, it’s clear. I have already admitted that was over the line.

    OK, I’ll choose to accept that as a statement that you won’t do it again.

    Now, what else is confusing you?

    The other rule I cited is mischaracterizing other people’s arguments to make it easier to “win.” swc earned himself a one-way ticket out of here by doing this habitually and refusing to apologize. I have explained how I thought you did that by making a ridiculous claim that I think Erdogan is a “good guy.”

    Patterico (115b1f)

  334. My two cents about Steve57 is that he was very kind and would often stop on the side of the road to help minority families change a flat tire

    in the rain

    happyfeet (28a91b) — 10/20/2018 @ 6:45 am

    No, that would be purse snatchers. I hate purse snatchers. What’s a lady waiting for a bus going to do without her purse. I never caught them. The purse thieves were too fast for me, over the fence and into the hood. At least I could give the minority lady bus fare.

    And admittedly I could have offered the minority family a ride. But even back in my late teens and early twenties I knew I’d be inviting what is now known as the Thomas/Kavanaugh treatment.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  335. He was a dick to Dustin in this thread too. I’m starting to wonder why I expended so much energy to keep him around.

    Patterico (115b1f) — 10/20/2018 @ 5:52 am

    I was blessed to get to interact with Admiral McRaven more than a few times. He even attended my graduation from the police academy years ago. You wouldn’t meet a more gentle and humble man, despite the physical toll his military heroism extracted. He has written about the power of grit in his Make Your Bed book. Despite that, he never puts on a show about who he is, or how much he had done. This is the actual man who got Osama Bin Laden, but he also led the University of Texas boldly (really). Granted, he has criticized President Trump, like so many patriots who put the USA first. That’s something men should aspire towards.

    I have seen thin-skinned and insecure people puff their chest in many contexts… it’s never impressive. I wouldn’t want to share a foxhole or patrol car with a man who brags that much or gets that bent out of shape over absolutely nothing. People who need to work that hard to impress others have some silent reason they doubt their own character. It doesn’t take strength to talk tough. Patience and generosity, putting in the effort to understand an argument you don’t agree with, admitting you’ve changed your mind occasionally… or that it’s even possible, that takes more.

    It’s that I find his need to brag on himself, and insult others, tiresome. I did see DRJ try to get him in line the other day. He was barely willing to budge then, and made quite a point that he is so great that his views are necessarily correct

    My point: I ignored everything Steve57 said in this thread. I didn’t read his comments, and I didn’t engage in an argument with Steve57. I said “bless your heart” in response to the one ugly comment I did read (no script on the phone) and went on with my day, turning the other cheek for my own peace. Other than those three rather kind words, it’s been Steve57 talking to himself, apparently very angry with something he invented in his head. As Haiku would say, 24/7/365, only I think it’s really the concept of rejecting Trump’s greatness that lives rent free in the minds of some very, very unhappy people.

    Please consider the value of Steve’s comments. Happyfeet seems to think they are great. Paul M seems to think they are pointless. Which direction should this blog take?

    Dustin (ba94b2)

  336. The other rule I cited is mischaracterizing other people’s arguments to make it easier to “win.” swc earned himself a one-way ticket out of here by doing this habitually and refusing to apologize. I have explained how I thought you did that by making a ridiculous claim that I think Erdogan is a “good guy.”

    I never claimed I had a clue about what you think about Erdogan. Which is why I asked. I still don’t know what you think about Erdogan. Or about how valid you think his government’s proofs will be, and how we can independently verify them.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  337. I have seen thin-skinned and insecure people puff their chest in many contexts… it’s never impressive.

    No, it’s not, Dustin, and if what you’re saying about me were remotely true the Marine DI’s at AOCS would have never let me become an officer.

    Pat, I’m curious. How does your rule against personal attacks relate to the dissection of my character that Dustin just engaged in?

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  338. Mr. 57’s been doing comments for a very long time now

    i don’t understand why all a sudden he’s like saudi arabia and has to stand in the corner

    everything’s so arbitrary and whimsical anymore

    and the days are getting shorter and colder

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  339. i don’t understand why all a sudden

    That’s because it isn’t.

    Dustin (ba94b2)

  340. I did see DRJ try to get him in line the other day. He was barely willing to budge then, and made quite a point that he is so great that his views are necessarily correct

    I completely agreed with her, Dustin. I said I wasn’t confused at all on the point she brought up, and had no issue with her decisions.

    If that was inadequate I’d expect to hear from her, not from you.

    Pat, again, how does your rule against mischaracterizing someone else’s arguments apply here?

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  341. Well Steve has some expertise in the matter, I only have from what I have gleaned over the years, I do detect a certain lack of perspective. I suspect if khashoggi were really a liberal he wouldn’t have 1/10ooth of th of the attention,

    narciso (d1f714)

  342. Without a google search, who is armando alejandre, hint it happened 14 1/2 years 5ago.

    narciso (d1f714)

  343. he was the former marine, American citizen, shot down in international waters on a relief mission,

    narciso (d1f714)

  344. We definitely should have cut off our arms sales to Cuba over that incident, narciso.

    Davethulhu (5cc577)

  345. I don’t think so, narciso. Chopping up a journalist is still awful behavior no matter what other perspective you have in mind. Trump’s bowing to those who constantly kill people for what they say… Kim and Putin were my examples, seems to have inspired worse.

    Those saying they have figured this out and that the Saudis are innocent because it’s too obvious are naive. The chilling of speech works better if everyone knows what happened amid enough deniability to slow international consequences. Exactly the stuff Putin does.

    You can point to other bad things… This is still awful. And frankly we still know what happened no matter how much secret knowledge some Trump fans on the internet claim to have about how frogs are turned gay or what kind of fist fight really happened in turkey.

    Dustin (95be0d)

  346. so jesse helms put together a sanctions bill, and the dutifully civilized Europeans, like Benetton and hugo boss (who made uniforms for Nazi germany) said get bent, meanwhile Mubarak and qaddafi and bin ali, well they had to go, and what has happened since, berlin, Manchester, Westminster, Barcelona, charlie Hebdo, happened next,

    narciso (d1f714)

  347. I did see DRJ try to get him in line the other day. He was barely willing to budge then, and made quite a point that he is so great that his views are necessarily correct

    I completely agreed with her, Dustin. I said I wasn’t confused at all on the point she brought up, and had no issue with her decisions.

    If that was inadequate I’d expect to hear from her, not from you.

    Pat, again, how does your rule against mischaracterizing someone else’s arguments apply here?

    I think you might be thinking of a different episode than Dustin, who is probably referencing the thread (which I just saw for the first time) in which you ended up having to apologize for calling Dave stupid and made comments like “If you were brighter, you’d know it doesn’t matter. What matters is, I researched into it more deeply than you did. Thanks for stepping in it, jackwagons” and talked about how you use words precisely and speak the truth and so forth.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  348. Pat, I’m curious. How does your rule against personal attacks relate to the dissection of my character that Dustin just engaged in?

    I invited people’s reactions to my hours-long effort to try to get you to agree to the rules of the blog.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  349. This is the wrong thread to whine about being attacked personally. As we saw in the thread where DRJ tried to calm you down, once the personal attacks start in a thread — as you started with me in this one — the thread goes out of control. This is the whole reason I instituted these rules.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  350. Well Steve has some expertise in the matter…

    narciso (d1f714) — 10/20/2018 @ 2:01 pm

    I do have a certain amount of expertise in some matters. I think two are applicable here. One concerns the difference between circumstantial and direct evidence and the other concerns the empire fighting back (i.e. the deep state [I was the deep state although I didn’t know it at the time]).

    After 9/11 I was recalled to active duty. So I saw the intel that GWB was using to justify invading Saddam Hussein’s Iraq. On the WMD front I didn’t find it convincing. Don’t get me wrong; I am at heart a Machiavellian. I am no fan of coalition warfare and I thought Bush1 shouldn’t have let the Iraqi army escape Kuwait almost entirely intact. So I had no problem with going all the way to Baghdad, just that we should have done it twelve years earlier and I had a really big problem with the “pottery barn” rule and therefore the subsequent execution. I am probably one of the few hold outs that refuses to admit (here Dustin has a point) that it was a mistake to go into Iraq. Again, had we done so before signing the Safwan accords that would have been better. And in hindsight had I known my supposed superiors in the chain of command would have executed the job so poorly I would have opposed the decision.

    Had I been advising the President I would have told him to lay off the WMD stuff. The CIA director George Tenet was telling him it was a slam dunk case. No, it wasn’t. I can’t go into why, as I gave my word which unlike Hillary! Clinton’s word actually involves criminal penalties if I break it. Let’s just say I already had a low opinion of the agency generally (making frequent exceptions for stellar performers like Johnny Spann, who I always thought more an ANGLICO Marine than CIA [once a Marine, always a Marine[). This was when I began forming low opinions of CIA directors, and Brennan hasn’t helped the situation.

    So, just before Bush2 launches the reboot of Desert Storm I’m forward deployed to Diego Garcia. I’m supposed to plan for intelligence support to the defense of the island. My career mostly involved general operational intel but I have what one might consider a few subspecialties. Which include intelligence support to force protection, counter-terrorism, and anti-terrorism. It was a complete waste of time as the atoll was then, and still is, a British Indian Ocean Territory. The governor of the island was polite but firm that the UK would defend the island. The US military could defend certain installations, such as the airfield where the USAF was launching B-52s and their associated KC-10s against targets in Afghanistan or our pre-positioning ships inside the reef, etc., but they would defend the island.

    So I had basically a month’s paid vacation partying with the Royal Marines and exploring the mysteries of the WESTPAC 10 (a girl who might be a 3 in the US becomes a 10 when she sets foot on Dodge; some girls don’t want to ever leave, and indeed several prostitution rings have been busted and invariably the pimps are women, one being a naval officer). One evening I’m sitting on the back porch of the O club with the NCIS resident agent in charge enjoying a few beers (I also have a certain amount of expertise with investigations due to my close working relationship with NCIS). What you never do is talk around the subject, not in person, not via text or email. If an adversary has access to the conversation you just may fill in the vital blanks.

    But I couldn’t resist asking him, “Have you seen the latest?” He nods. I continue, “I hope there’s more to it?” He nods. Then I say, “You know they’re going to blame us, right?” He nods. That was it. I didn’t give anything away, as if I had I was talking to the man who had the power to bust me. But I remain unprosecuted.

    There was so much circumstantial evidence that Iraq had restarted its WMD programs, but no direct or convincing evidence. It was a mistake I wouldn’t have made in 2002 and its not a mistake I’m going to make in 2018.

    Then there’s the issue of the entrenched bureaucracy. I had a close look at it over twenty five years ago when I was stationed in Japan. One of my jobs was intelligence liaison. With the Japanese Maritime Self Defense force as a staff officer with Commander, Naval Forces Japan, with the Japanese self-defense forces generally via our seniors at US Forces Japan, and the Japanese government generally when facilitated by the embassy. So I had an up close look at how the deep state operates a couple of decades ago, and it’s frightening. The Minister of Defense in Japan is a politician. At the time generally a junior politician as the post wasn’t a prestige post in Japan. The real power belonged to his deputy (at that point no woman had been appointed Minister) who was a career bureaucrat. When the pair walked into the Boecho (the Japanese version of the Pentagon) military and civilian workers lined up to greet them. They were politely deferential toward the politician. But they bowed, scraped, and practically grovelled before the theoretical no. 2 guy. They knew which side buttered their bread.

    Basically, I see a huge possibility this is pushback against the prince. He’s ruffled a lot of feathers with his crack down on corruption and his liberalization in the face of the Wahhabists. I leave open the possibility he could be stupid enough to whack a critic at a consulate inside a police/surveillance state run by an adversary, but I reject the idea that everyone in the chain of command tasked with carrying out that order are equally stupid. There would have been pushback if the objective was protecting Prince MBS. On the other hand if the objective was sliming Prince MBS there are a lot of antagonized elements inside his regime that are willing to do that.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  351. This is the wrong thread to whine about being attacked personally…

    Patterico (115b1f) — 10/20/2018 @ 3:06 pm

    I’m a big boy and can take it. If I were thin skinned…

    http://www.blackfive.net/photos/uncategorized/2008/02/18/drill_inst_2.jpg

    …this crew would have discovered the chink in my armor and exploited it. They made lots of others quit. They tried their hardest with me. It’s what they do for a living; getting people to quit. I earned their respect.

    And, after all, I invited you to paint me in the worst possible way. I can hardly complain about it, can I. However, I can be curious about how long open season lasts and issues such as even-handeness. Can’t I?

    To be honest it’s far more important for me to know when my pizza is going to get here.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  352. There would have been pushback if the objective was protecting Prince MBS. On the other hand if the objective was sliming Prince MBS there are a lot of antagonized elements inside his regime that are willing to do that.

    In which case there will be some beheadings. Certainly he has deniability, and that does not always mean the denial is false. Maybe there will be a trial first, maybe there won’t be — it depends how privileged the scoundrels are.

    Kevin M (a57144)

  353. And, after all, I invited you to paint me in the worst possible way. I can hardly complain about it, can I. However, I can be curious about how long open season lasts and issues such as even-handeness. Can’t I?

    Just stop personal attacks and I will stop others who engage in them.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  354. Well previous practice doesn’t reassure, recall the three princes who zubeydah allegedly pointed out, how they died in ways whose explanation was unsatisfactory, also the bombers of the national guard base in 95.

    Narciso (d1f714)

  355. Oh yeah I’ll go back to ignoring Steve. Hahaha.

    My point is that there is no way to interact with those folks. Even not interacting with them leads to endless… this. It’s coming from within these guys. I don’t think it has anything to do with Trump either. Plenty of people emotionally identical on the other side, carrying the defense for some Democrat.

    Dustin (95be0d)

  356. So the Japanese version of yes minister, interesting well parliamentary politics often led to the musical chairs phenomenon with the liberal democrats as well as the Christian democrats (The latter seems to have lost the point yet it retains power.

    Narciso (d1f714)

  357. The question of the nature of wmds is a,trickier issues, there were certainly caches of material as cj chivers has documented, after all how many shells did it take for halabjah to be perpetrated?

    Narciso (d1f714)

  358. That seems common to many parties across the western world.

    Narciso (d1f714)

  359. …My point is that there is no way to interact with those folks. Even not interacting with them leads to endless… this. It’s coming from within these guys. I don’t think it has anything to do with Trump either. Plenty of people emotionally identical on the other side, carrying the defense for some Democrat.

    Dustin (95be0d) — 10/20/2018 @ 7:15 pm

    Not true. There are ways of interacting with me. My dad, the sainted Senior Chief, knew how to interact with me. The Marine DIs at P’cola knew how to interact with me. The Sailors I worked for, or with, or I shepherded, knew how to interact with me. The Navy nurse who knocked on my door when I was recalled after 911 and stabled in Yokosuka, in tears because she had been given the job of calling some guy who ten years previously had taken a test for cancer and was never told the results, knew how to interact with me. More importantly she knew whose door to knock on, as she needed a shoulder to cry on. And advice, as her seniors who should have been calling the guy were too gutless to make the phone call themselves. So they put it all on a Lieutenant Junior Grade and ran for the tall grass.

    I could never actually figure that one out. If he was as sick as the ten year old test said he was, he should have died five years ago. But then we are all familiar with the VA hospital scandals when veteran’s families get the good news that their relatives now have confirmed appointment. A year or so after their loved one is dead. Her seniors were just trying to clear the books, and she was the goat.

    “Look, if you need it,” I offered, “I’ll hold your hand through the phone call.” She couldn’t accept as it involved what is essentially HIPAA information. So I told her to knock on my door and me and a bottle of whiskey would be waiting for her. Which as it turned out was true; I wasn’t lying.

    I don’t think I need to go further. No one I know would recognize me in the caricature you have attempted to paint me into. It’s actually, amusing. Just because you haven’t cracked the code doesn’t mean there is no way to communicate with me. Keep at it Dustin.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  360. I read Emerson’s american house of said (85)
    The kingdom, the one by the British coauthor who was murdered there, aburish Kaplan posner gold muravuec so little surprises me except their monumental incompetence this time.

    Narciso (2b96ab)


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