Patterico's Pontifications

6/22/2018

Viral Photo of Girl Separated from Parents Turns Out to Show Girl Who Had Not Been Separated

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 9:15 am



Who cares? It served its propaganda purpose.

The widely shared photo of the little girl crying as a U.S. Border Patrol agent patted down her mother became a symbol of the families pulled apart by the Trump administration’s “zero tolerance” policy at the border, even landing on the new cover of Time magazine.

But the girl’s father told The Washington Post on Thursday night that his child and her mother were not separated, and a U.S. Customs and Border Protection spokesman confirmed that the family was not separated while in the agency’s custody.

The revelation has prompted a round of media criticism from the White House and other conservatives.

“It’s shameful that dems and the media exploited this photo of a little girl to push their agenda,” White House spokeswoman Sarah Huckabee Sanders tweeted Friday. “She was not separated from her mom. The separation here is from the facts.”

The heart-wrenching image, captured by award-winning Getty Images photographer John Moore, was spread across the front pages of international newspapers. It was used to promote a Facebook fundraiser that has collected more than $18 million to help reunite separated families.

And on Thursday, hours before the little girl’s father spoke out, Time magazine released its July 2 cover using the child’s image — without the mother — in a photo illustration that shows her looking up at President Trump, who is seen towering above her.

Screen Shot 2018-06-22 at 9.13.01 AM

. . . .

A Time story recounting the photographer’s experience initially stated the girl was carried away screaming by border agents, and later corrected the article to say that the two were taken away together.

The news that this one fake photo created a fake narrative of a separated child should not be used to distract us from the very real fact that Big Media has created a fake narrative about a “separation policy.”

UPDATE: It’s probably worth noting that the girl was crying, not because of what ICE did to her, but because she was tired and thirsty after the trip her mother had put her through:

“We were patrolling the border. It was after 10 o’clock at night,” Border Patrol agent Carlos Ruiz told CBS News’ David Begnaud. He was the first to encounter Sandra Sanchez and her daughter after they allegedly crossed the Rio Grande River into Texas illegally.

“We asked her to set the kid down in front of her, not away from her, she was right in front of her…So we can properly search the mother,” Ruiz said. “So the kid immediately started crying as she set her down. I personally went up to the mother and asked her ‘Are you doing OK? Is the kid OK?’ and she said, ‘Yes. She’s tired and thirsty. It’s 11 o’clock at night.’”

Her dad back in Honduras was upset at the mom: “I didn’t support it. I asked her, why? Why would she want to put our little girl through that? But it was her decision at the end of the day.” Also, she left three other children back in Honduras, who probably cried when she left although we have no pictures of them doing so.

But Trump!

UPDATE x2: Time Magazine is standing by its fake cover.

[Cross-posted at The Jury Talks Back.]

226 Responses to “Viral Photo of Girl Separated from Parents Turns Out to Show Girl Who Had Not Been Separated”

  1. Ding.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  2. The press doesn’t seem to understand that by lying and stretching the truth, they give Trump exactly the cover he needs to call his problems ‘fake news.’

    The GOP primary in 2020 is going to be fascinating.

    Dustin (ba94b2)

  3. I bet she wasn’t standing right in front of Trump either.

    Davethulhu (fab944)

  4. They don’t care, they have a narrative and they have a goal, in point of fact they didn’t succeed in moving the immigration goal, but they riled up a whole hornets nest of angry people whose end point we still don’t know.

    Narciso (3918c0)

  5. That was the goal, family reunification was just the lever they sought.

    Narciso (3918c0)

  6. I bet she wasn’t standing right in front of Trump either.

    Now that you mention it, I’ll bet you’re right!

    Patterico (115b1f)

  7. Social media is also saying the mother was previously deported during the Obama admin.

    harkin (e5c973)

  8. It goes without saying that the mom certainly thought she was doing right for the child she took, and I guess she thought she was doing right for the children she left behind too. My point here is not to judge her, but the media — because the misery of this child (whose crying face was splashed across newspapers all over the world) and the misery of the children she left behind (whose faces the world will likely never see) was not caused by the U.S. government. If it was caused by anyone, it was caused by her. That is not to judge her, but to judge the media which would have you believe instead that the crying face you have seen was Trump’s fault.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  9. harkin,

    In the WaPo story I linked, it says: “ICE said Sanchez was previously deported to Honduras in July 2013.”

    (Whether you consider WaPo reporting an ICE statement more authoritative than social media, I don’t know. I do, so I thought I’d pass it along.)

    Patterico (115b1f)

  10. Cthulhu shows obvious concern about teh fake news.

    Colonel Haiku (167903)

  11. That was a dirty trick Sanchez pulled, trying to get in-Country again!

    Colonel Haiku (167903)

  12. Because it’s an admission against interest.

    Narciso (3918c0)

  13. Because it’s an admission against interest.

    That probably has a lot to do with why I consider it more authoritative, yes.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  14. That was a dirty trick Sanchez pulled

    *rolls eyes*

    Patterico (115b1f)

  15. WaPo blames Krauthammer for the War in Iraq as a lead in to their obit. Stay classy!!!

    Colonel Haiku (167903)

  16. So all the children are perfectly fine and don’t cry or get upset when they’re ripped from their parent’s arms. Golly, what a relief that is! Thanks Patterico.

    No, you’ve maybe found the micro-truth, but blind to the bigger truth. The big picture is still horrible.

    The truth is, it must be bad since they don’t even let journalists in to photo their holding pins. That’s not democracy. Maybe if they let journalists in, we could get authentic photos, no?

    Look, you can be against the whole-sale migration of Mexico into America. Most people, including myself, want to prevent that. There should be limits in place. But you can’t do it this way. It’s far too cruel to innocent children.

    Tillman (d34303)

  17. horrible lol

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  18. Tillman, while stuffing his straw man to the point of bursting, completely misses the point yet again.

    Chuck Bartowski (bc1c71)

  19. So all the children are perfectly fine and don’t cry or get upset when they’re ripped from their parent’s arms. Golly, what a relief that is! Thanks Patterico.

    No, you’ve maybe found the micro-truth, but blind to the bigger truth. The big picture is still horrible.

    The truth is, it must be bad since they don’t even let journalists in to photo their holding pins. That’s not democracy. Maybe if they let journalists in, we could get authentic photos, no?

    Look, you can be against the whole-sale migration of Mexico into America. Most people, including myself, want to prevent that. There should be limits in place. But you can’t do it this way. It’s far too cruel to innocent children.

    What way can you do it?

    Patterico (115b1f)

  20. UPDATE x2: Time Magazine is standing by its fake cover.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  21. Pat, you’re the criminal justice expert, not me. I had one class in college, that’s it. But there must be some way. Have have other countries (in similar situations) handled it?

    Tillman (d34303)

  22. Kids cry and get upset when you tell them they can’t jump off the roof.

    Pious Agnostic (c45233)

  23. *How have…

    Tillman (d34303)

  24. Tillman,

    show a link of you giving a darn about holding illegals during the Obama administration. Till then, what you say is leftist politics as usual. You don’t give a crap about people except for how you can use them to obtain political power.

    NJRob (7ee997)

  25. “the misery of this child (whose crying face was splashed across newspapers all over the world) and the misery of the children she left behind (whose faces the world will likely never see) was not caused by the U.S. government.”

    – Patterico

    Well, it was the U.S. government who decided that she couldn’t come into America. So, an actual cause of her misery, if not the proximate cause (but arguably the proximate cause as well).

    Whether causing this girl’s misery is morally justified is a different question.

    Leviticus (efada1)

  26. “(Whether you consider WaPo reporting an ICE statement more authoritative than social media, I don’t know. I do, so I thought I’d pass it along.)”

    Thanks but the reason I referenced social media is because that is where I saw it said. I don’t remember who said it so I labeled it as such. Anyhow it seems they were accurate in this case.

    As to which is more authoritative, there are some social media I would trust more than the WaPo (e.g. reporting on Russians hacking the Northeast power grid).

    IOW, I don’t consider social media as one entity (i.e. I would not judge how authoritative your twitter account is based on the tweets of Amy Schumer) but treat each as individuals.

    harkin (e5c973)

  27. Quite literally ‘Fake News.’

    The feeding frenzy from all sides -particularly over the past two weeks- to keep The Beast fed has bordered on gluttony.

    And then there’s this:

    New Yorker cover shows migrant children hiding at Statue of Liberty’s feet

    The latest cover of The New Yorker takes on President Trump’s immigration policies, showing migrant children hiding at the feet of the Statue of Liberty.

    source- http://www.thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/393526-new-yorker-cover-shows-migrant-children-hiding-at-statue-of

    See if you can catch what’s not quite right with The New Yorker’s cover art. But then, the slow-news-summer has begun; ‘those days of soda and pretzels and beer.’

    “I really don’t care, do U?” – FLOTUS

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  28. But the girl’s father told The Washington Post on Thursday night that his child and her mother were not separated

    I heard that before yesterday, or rather I heard that some official forced her mother to put her down, and that was what she was crying about.

    Mark Simone on WOR said you children crying all the time at an airport or McDonald’s – I think that was on Wednesday.

    The thing is: Not everything that happens do you get pictures with.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  29. “One cannot permit unique opportunities to slip by for the sake of trifles.” — Erwin Rommel Every purse-snatcher

    nk (dbc370)

  30. really, I’d like a copy of your newsletter.

    https://twitter.com/john_sipher/status/1009978869464657921

    narciso (d1f714)

  31. Look, you can be against the whole-sale migration of Mexico into America. Most people, including myself, want to prevent that. There should be limits in place. But you can’t do it this way. It’s far too cruel to innocent children.

    Patterico (115b1f) — 6/22/2018 @ 10:13 am

    What way can you do it?

    You accept that a certain number of people, determined or desperate enough, “get away” with it. And it is not like nobody would, in any case, “get away with it.”

    When you reach the point that further enforcement would be too inhumane for you: YOU STOP

    And there’s no person who would not stop at some point before 100% effectiveness.*

    Not even with just and fair laws.

    With any law, there’s a tension between effectiveness and inhumanity. You could try chopping off the hands of thieves, or the death penalty for pickpocketing.
    ————-

    * They don’t put land mines on the U.S. Mexican border or in the Rio Grande, like is done in the waters around Hong Kong.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  32. 8. Patterico (115b1f) — 6/22/2018 @ 9:50 am

    — because the misery of this child (whose crying face was splashed across newspapers all over the world) and the misery of the children she left behind (whose faces the world will likely never see) was not caused by the U.S. government.

    Of course it was caused by the U.S. government, although many many people besides Donald Trump share responsibility. Didn’t Congress pass laws that could have this result?

    The difference bewteen Donald Trump and Barack Obama, though, is that Obama did these things very quietly, and Trump dared people to argue against the policy. And then passed the buck to Congress, and specifically, to Democrats in Congress. While praising politicians in Europe who would do much worse, and making false claims about what would happen in the alternative.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  33. Time is truly not to be trusted. For example this cover:

    https://timedotcom.files.wordpress.com/2017/03/trumpfinal.jpg

    Trump is not actually 500 feet tall, and he didn’t actually destroy the Washington monument.

    Davethulhu (fab944)

  34. Of course it was caused by the U.S. government, although many many people besides Donald Trump share responsibility. Didn’t Congress pass laws that could have this result?

    That this girl was tired and hungry? That her children in Honduras were sad because she left them?

    Patterico (115b1f)

  35. NJRob, you are in no position to send me on errands. If you don’t believe me, fine. I’ll get over it.

    Tillman (d34303)

  36. Maybe your man, Mr. Cruz, has a solution Pat. He came out against this too:

    Texas Sen. Ted Cruz said kids “should not be the victim of a broken illegal immigration system.”
    “All of us who are seeing images of these children being pulled away from moms and dads in tears are horrified. This has to stop,” he said. “We should keep children with their parents. Kids need their moms. They need their dads.”
    Cruz said he’s introducing legislation that will mandate that kids stay with parents, will expedite immigration proceedings and will mandate that asylum cases be heard within 72 hours, and case decided within two weeks.

    https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/18/politics/republican-party-family-separation/index.html

    Tillman (d34303)

  37. “I really don’t care, do U?” – FLOTUS

    Is she that stupid, or just that shrewish? Not that the one precludes the other. From stealing Michelle Obama’s speech, to slapping away Trump’s hand (many times), to high heels while visiting a flood zone, to this, it seems that her goal is to make every photo-op an embarrassment for Trump.

    nk (dbc370)

  38. Nancy Pelosi 2014:

    “During a Q&A that followed, Pelosi was asked whether the humanitarian crisis was being “politicized.” “Well, I hope that while some may have tried to politicize it, I hope that was not the case,” Pelosi said. Responding to a question about border security, Pelosi added, “I’m not going to take any bait on what one partisan said or the other.” “Why don’t we just put all that aside and talk about what we’re going to do to help these children and families,” she said.

    Nancy Pelosi 2018:

    Our message to Mr. Trump is, stop this inhumane, barbaric policy, rescind your actions and take responsibility for it instead of blaming it on other people…

    Well, if you want to psychoanalyze the President, there aren’t enough hours in the day for.“

    harkin (e5c973)

  39. No Tillman, I don’t believe you. Tour leftist behavior on hear speaks for itself.

    NJRob (7ee997)

  40. “Have have other countries (in similar situations) handled it?”

    How many other Americas do you think there are Tillman? There is no similar situation and never has been because there has never been a welfare State as wealthy as America bordered by a dozen+ third world countries.

    Until those crying about how cruel this is can articulate a viable solution I don’t think many people care what you think. Save your virtue signaling and solve the problem.

    Nate Ogden (223c65)

  41. Your leftist behavior on here speaks for itself. *

    NJRob (7ee997)

  42. “I really don’t care, do U?” – FLOTUS

    37. nk (dbc370) — 6/22/2018 @ 11:17 am

    Is she that stupid, or just that shrewish?

    I had the thought that maybe, since the last time she visited Texas she was criticized for wearing expensive clothing, (high heels in a flood zone) this time she put on the cheapest article of clothing she had.

    It of course can’t mean what it seems to mean. She went there to show that she “cares” and nobdoy forced her to go. It wasn’t her reaction to Donald Trump’s possible infidelity, either, or to her press coverage. It could be somebody else tried to sabotage her.

    Not that the one precludes the other. From stealing Michelle Obama’s speech, to slapping away Trump’s hand (many times), to

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  43. The situation with immigration law is not of the ends not justifying the means.

    It’s worse.

    The ends are INVENTED to justify the means.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  44. Tillman,

    This isn’t just about scoring partisan points for some of us. Sure, Cruz is showing great leadership and trying to improve a serious situation, but that doesn’t mean that situation would have been [insert political party you are rooting against]’s fault.

    Fact is, this whole situation comes from desperation. What is the cause of this desperation? Well it’s stuff back home, wherever that is. It’s choices made by parents. And it’s the effort to roll out the red carpet to import democrat votes. These are the factors that led to millions coming to our country illegally, with risk and criminal consequences.

    It creates a disaster that the press has only recently decided to make grandiose headlines about, and Trump likes to fight grandiose with grandiose, with that terrible First Lady jacket stunt, with his rhetoric, with all sorts of garbage. So we wind up with two sides of dishonest people fighting to outrage eachother, not really solving anything, and we can argue about it until we are blue in the face. But why did mom want to leave Honduras or Mexico? Why aren’t these countries decent enough places in 2018? There’s the real thing you need to fix if you’re truly concerned. Until you do, it will manifest a bunch of smaller problems that distract you from the real problem.

    Dustin (ba94b2)

  45. When asked which policy they prefer for how to handle families that are stopped for crossing the border illegally, two-thirds of the 1,500 surveyed said they support detention for lawbreakers and less than 20 percent responded that they support previous presidential administrations’ policy of letting the lawbreakers enter the country with a promise to return for a later court date. The poll was taken June 17-19, at the height of media outrage over the policy.

    When given a choice for how to handle illegal border crossing arrests, some 44 percent of Americans chose “hold families together in family detention centers until an immigration hearing at a later date.” Another 20 percent of U.S. adults chose detention options that would separate families. Only 19 percent chose to return to the policy of allowing people who cross the border illegally to go without detention on the promise they’d return for a court hearing at a later date.

    The Economist/YouGov poll shows an American electorate fare more serious about border enforcement than what the media conversation would indicate.

    http://thefederalist.com/2018/06/22/trumps-immigration-policies-are-actually-pretty-popular/

    Colonel Haiku (167903)

  46. capture the stakes of this moment

    Newest weasel words for “fake but accurate” news.

    Shameful.

    Patricia (3363ec)

  47. “That this girl was tired and hungry? That her children in Honduras were sad because she left them?”

    If we’re still talking about the little girl on teh cover, the drop in the average age when females reach puberty is officially off teh charts!!!

    Colonel Haiku (167903)

  48. 46… if they spent half the time resolving problems in good faith that they do with their flowery, artful attempts at spin, what a wonderful world this would be, Patricia.

    Colonel Haiku (167903)

  49. She also (reported) paid ~$6,000 to a coyote to get smuggled into the US:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5869829/Father-two-year-old-face-child-separation-crisis-speaks-out.html

    don’t have any resentment for my wife, but I do think it was irresponsible of her to take the baby with her in her arms because we don’t know what could happen.’

    The couple has three other children, son Wesly, 14, and daughters Cindy, 11, and Brianna, six.

    ‘The kids see what’s happening. They’re a little worried but I don’t try to bring it up that much. They know their mother and sister are safe now.’

    Denis said that he believes the journey across the border is only worth it to some degree, and admits that it’s not something he would ever consider.

    He said he heard from friends that his wife paid $6,000 for a coyote – a term for someone who smuggles people across the border.

    ‘I wouldn’t risk my life for it. It’s hard to find a good job here and that’s why many people choose to leave. But I thank God that I have a good job here. And I would never risk my life making that journey.’

    BfC (5517e8)

  50. The jacket, explained:

    https://fashionbyjeje.com/really-dont-care-do-u

    (in Italian, with English translation following)

    ….the military green jacket signed Berska … a parka that I immediately loved, especially the writing on the rear … I REALLY DO NOT CARE DO U?….

    ….we must remember that we are too often influenced by the opinions of others … that we often do in our choices affect not aiming at the target that we set …

    But the greats of the past and with their aphorisms make us realize that should not be so … there will always be people who will want to talk, to criticize us … both for sheer stupidity and is especially envy…

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  51. So true, Colonel.

    Patricia (3363ec)

  52. When American citizens are murdered by illegals, these characters don’t raise an eyebrow. Nor do those killings make the cover of Time magazine.

    DN (172f46)

  53. 49. BfC (5517e8) — 6/22/2018 @ 11:44 am

    49.She also (reported) paid ~$6,000 to a coyote to get smuggled into the US:

    That would be $3,000 for herself and $3,000 for her youngest child. She probably didn’t take the others because she couldn’t afford it.

    ‘I wouldn’t risk my life for it. It’s hard to find a good job here and that’s why many people choose to leave. But I thank God that I have a good job here. And I would never risk my life making that journey.’

    Now here’s the thing: The U.S. government could probably put the smugglers out of business by undercutting them on price. (not to mention offering a fast and safe trip)

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  54. Dustin, at 2: I completely agree.

    I mean, ethics aside, looking at it just pragmatically: what the ****? We’ve got the moral high ground on this issue; why squander it by basing it on an obvious and easily disproven lie? *That* does more harm to the cause we are fighting for (ending this obscene and abusive policy).

    Idiots.

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  55. Because they don’t aphrael, the cause they argue for is the elimination of any opposition, they think not entirely without merit, that demography is a key to this, along with indictrinatiin

    narciso (a0b92f)

  56. Leftists and media types (sorry for the redundancy) don’t show much outrage when illegals murder American citizens.

    DN (172f46)

  57. Distilled v2.0

    “This isn’t just about scoring partisan points for some of us. Sure, Cruz is showing great leadership and trying to improve a serious situation, but that doesn’t mean that situation would have been [insert political party you are rooting against]’s fault.”

    Impugning the intent and motivation of a lot of people, before giving himself the reacharound

    “Fact is, this whole situation comes from desperation. What is the cause of this desperation? Well it’s stuff back home, wherever that is. It’s choices made by parents. And it’s the effort to roll out the red carpet to import democrat votes. These are the factors that led to millions coming to our country illegally, with risk and criminal consequences.”

    Best of USA Today

    “It creates a disaster that the press has only recently decided to make grandiose headlines about, and Trump likes to fight grandiose with grandiose, with that terrible First Lady jacket stunt, with his rhetoric, with all sorts of garbage. So we wind up with two sides of dishonest people fighting to outrage eachother, not really solving anything, and we can argue about it until we are blue in the face. But why did mom want to leave Honduras or Mexico? Why aren’t these countries decent enough places in 2018? There’s the real thing you need to fix if you’re truly concerned. Until you do, it will manifest a bunch of smaller problems that distract you from the real problem.”

    He cares… he really, really cares!

    Colonel Haiku (f125a7)

  58. 52. DN (172f46) — 6/22/2018 @ 11:51 am

    When American citizens are murdered by illegals, these characters don’t raise an eyebrow. Nor do those killings make the cover of Time magazine.

    Would you care to substitute any other category of person for “illegals?”

    What about illegals murdered instead of American citizens or permanent residents, as happened inside an Orlando nightclub on June 12, 2016? (3 of the 49 people killed were illegally present in the United States.)

    They also make substitute crime victims in other places.

    https://www.npr.org/2014/01/20/263505387/police-banks-help-undocumented-workers-shake-walking-atm-label

    Damian estimates that at least two-thirds of the people here are undocumented, and that has made it a magnet for robberies over the years. Gangs know undocumented day workers are especially lucrative targets, he says.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  59. 54. aphrael (e0cdc9) — 6/22/2018 @ 11:54 am

    *That* does more harm to the cause we are fighting for (ending this obscene and abusive policy).

    Idiots.

    I don’t think the photographer was tring to affect policy.

    He was just trying to take apicture he culd sell, and he probably didn’t lie or mislead anyone, at least not intentionally.

    And TIME was trying to find a picture to illlustrate their point and sell magazines. The thing is, such pictures don’t readily exist. Some news organizations are more careful, and ethical about photographs. TIME also clearly created a photoshop.

    The New Yorker, at least, published a political cartoon

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  60. Why would that be, they are among the least economically secure:

    narciso (a0b92f)

  61. The news that this one fake photo created a fake narrative of a separated child should not be used to distract us from the very real fact that Big Media has created a fake narrative about a “separation policy.”

    WOMP WOMP

    Dave (445e97)

  62. @37. Meh. She’s a model with fashion smarts and she’s Wife Number Three; you’d like to believe she had a knock-down-drag-out with our Captain over Stormy and assorted tales about tail, then when directed to go and comfort the kiddies to cover the Captain’s ass, she struck back. Personally, believe the message was intended for him and he didn’t see it coming. When he saw it, he quickly spun it into a deflection as a usual hit on the media.

    _____

    In a related media moment, two of the three news cablers cut away from the ‘Angel Moms’ event and went back to chatter over displaced illegal immigrant children again. Americans murdered at the hands of illegal immigrants just isn’t as sexy as weepin’ widdle kiddies.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  63. An American mother would lose custody of her child for doing that. What mother who unselfishly loved her child would drag her child on a dangerous and illegal raft journey, to separate her, perhaps forever, even if not through death, from her father and siblings, for mere economic opportunity? Pardon me for assuming the mantle of Solomon, but her reasons can only be self-serving. did she expect the child would be a meal ticket, entitling this woman, for I don’t call her mother, to aid she would not otherwise receive?

    She laid out six thousand dollars that cheated her other children of material,support, not to mention her presence in their lives. EIther she cared nothing for them, or their futures, expected to be able to take food out of the mouths of Americans to funnel away from the states.

    TIme inadvertently does show the stakes….forever being expected to be outraged at Trump by means of expedient lies and made up stories, or choosing to insist on truth.

    SarahW (3164f0)

  64. Oh, Captain, sir; has Stephen Miller asked your good friends PM of Japan Shinzo Abe and Chinese President-For-Life Xi Jinping how problems with crowds and crying kiddies were managed in Nanking?

    “Bayonets!” – Col. Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain [Jeff Daniels] ‘Gettysburg’ 1993

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  65. We’ve got the moral high ground on this issue;

    Because the goal is virtue signaling, not to actually propose a solution.

    When you open your home, neighborhood and private schools to illegals, I’ll concede the “moral high ground.” Not until then.

    random viking (6a54c2)

  66. 63. SarahW (3164f0) — 6/22/2018 @ 12:23 pm

    An American mother would lose custody of her child for doing that

    Probably not. Removal is much too arbitrary, and it isn’t good for the child.

    What mother who unselfishly loved her child would drag her child on a dangerous and illegal raft journey, to separate her, perhaps forever, even if not through death, from her father and siblings

    mother who selfishly loved her child, but such is the case for most mothers unless the child faces death if they don’t separate. I don’t think you would weant mothers to be any other way.

    She couldn’t bear to be separated from such ayoung child. The child couldn’t also.

    expected to be able to take food out of the mouths of Americans to funnel away from the states.

    That part isn’t true. You won’t find an economist who would endorse such an idea.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  67. @33. Recall the flack TIME editors got for intentionally ‘darkening’ the mug shot of O.J. Simpson they slapped on their cover. Brian Williams pegged Trump rightly last evening as literally a child of the TIME-Luce era. The covers mean something to him– but for the rest of America, not nearly so much as it did decades ago. But in this era, where ‘fake news’ is hurled at the press daily, you’d think TIME editors would go the extra mile to not produce a cover which is quite literally ‘fake news.’ It’s a desperate, dying medium.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  68. IOW, I do judge her. ONly the most selfish of beings would not only abandon family and a husband with a good job, but risk the life of her two year old, to enjoy the US welfare state.

    SarahW (3164f0)


  69. We’ve got the moral high ground on this issue; why squander it by basing it on an obvious and easily disproven lie? aphrael


    I don’t know how you classify moral high ground but advocating illegal aliens to drag their children into the United States so they can qualify for government handouts at the expense of hard working American families is certainly not the moral high ground. No matter how much your decadent and corrupt power hungry party needs their votes to replace those millions you’ve murdered in the womb with your abortion policy. Don’t ever speak to us about “moral high ground” as long as your party supports abortion up till and including birth and as long as your party boos God.

    Rev.Hoagie (c5d6cf)

  70. NO Sammy, the baby would be placed in the custody of her father with the rest of the family. CHildren are taken from their mothers for far less, but very frequently when the mothers commit crimes that endanger their children.

    SarahW (3164f0)

  71. 65. random viking (6a54c2) — 6/22/2018 @ 12:33 pm

    When you open your home, neighborhood and private schools to illegals, I’ll concede the “moral high ground.” Not until then.

    Who’s talking about opening their home, neighborhod or even school? Were talkingg about the whole country. We’re talking about not preventing OTHER PEOPLE , from opening up their home, neighborhood and private schools to illegals. It’s not a requirement to oppose that policy for someone to offer help themselves.

    Preventing other people from extending charity is what the city of Sodom was about. They got really angry with Lot when he presumed to offer some hospitality.

    You don’t want to extend help to other people, fine. Leave other people alone and don’t make it a policy of the United States government to prevent it. Now that’s what this is about.

    What is this here with the need for straw men?

    There are straw men on both sides here, of course.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  72. SAmmy, if the mother takes one dollar in tax funded by her crime, she has cheated an American…all Americans. ANd no, a true mother takes separation over her selfish wishes, if it means the life of the child. Those raft journeys are treacherous and occupants drown with regularity.

    SarahW (3164f0)

  73. All she had to do, is stay where she had a right and obligation to remain. She let her baby feel danger, hunger and thirst, and imperiled the child’s life, and stiller that child’s right to know her siblings and father, because that woman wanted to take money from other people.

    SarahW (3164f0)

  74. Who’s talking about opening their home, neighborhod or even school? Were talkingg about the whole country.

    Yeah, Sammy, my kids and their public school are those OTHER PEOPLE you speak of. The tradesmen who must compete against low cost illegal labor are those OTHER PEOPLE as well. The people dealing with gangs are those OTHER PEOPLE.

    You have no moral high ground, if that’s what you’re after.

    random viking (6a54c2)

  75. Stiller =stole

    SarahW (3164f0)

  76. The “story” behind the photo (he had no idea what happened after the photo–Just a couple photos he could sell as “…symbols of what the U.S.-Mexico border has become under President Trump.”–Not even what the border has become under 8 years of Obama (mother had been deported back in 2013 under Pres. Obama) or XX years of Congressional/Presidential/Courts “as the adults” that created this…):

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2018/06/18/i-wanted-to-stop-her-crying-the-image-of-a-migrant-child-that-broke-a-photographers-heart/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.5048f5c3604a

    He took two shots, moments apart. He understood at once that they were the photos he had been waiting for — for hours, if not years. Both images would become symbols of what the U.S.-Mexico border has become under President Trump.

    And then the woman picked up her daughter, they walked into the van, the van drove away, and Moore never saw them again.

    He began to breathe very heavily and feel things he had not felt in years. He had to think back to his time in war zones and Ebola wards to remember a similar feeling.

    In his head, he weighed the girl’s chances. According to new federal policies, he said, she would be taken from her mother when the van reached its destination. They would not be reunited until their case had wound through the courts, and then likely only to return to the country they had fled.

    He wanted to be optimistic — to believe that for some reason the girl would not have to spend weeks or months in the state of mind he had witnessed for only a few seconds, when she stood by herself in the road.

    “I don’t know what the truth is,” Moore said. “I fear they were split up.”

    Anyway, the assignment was over. Moore filed his photos the next morning and flew home. Between then and now, he has seen his children.

    BfC (5517e8)

  77. “If it was caused by anyone, it was caused by her. That is not to judge her”

    Uh, no, by all means judge her. Judge her harshly and publicly to deter others. Otherwise loose women and the media will continue to make hay over the HOW COULD YOU DENY THIS STRONG WOMAN JUST BECAUSE SHE RIPPED APART HER FAMILY ON A WHIM CAN’T YOU SEE SHE’S HUNGRY AND TIRED (great womping opportunity when you see that happening BTW.)

    Dysphoria Sam (312848)

  78. The “story” is that the media lies. The media is partisan. The media in America today is no different than the media in Soviet Russia. Watch as this media giant admits it’s their job to hurt Trump.
    https://youtu.be/0yN547hv9LI

    Rev.Hoagie (c5d6cf)

  79. 69… Hoagie… I hereby nominate your promotion from reverend to Oracle… Oracle Hoagie.

    Colonel Haiku (f125a7)

  80. Here are some facts:

    http://www.newser.com/story/260979/girl-who-became-face-of-border-separations-wasnt-separated.html?utm_source=part&utm_medium=uol&utm_campaign=rss_top

    Plus, a border agent tells CBS News that the search of Sanchez took about two minutes, that he personally asked Sanchez how she and her daughter were doing, and that the girl stopped crying when her mom picked her back up…

    … In a Washington Post interview earlier this week, [Getty photographer John] Moore never says the mother and daughter were definitely separated, but he does say that, after he watched the child and mother climb into the Border Patrol van and be driven away, he thought: “I fear they were split up.” [the authorities weren’t exactly being very transparent] The Time piece on what Moore witnessed has since added a correction that notes the original article “misstated” what had happened and that the toddler “was not carried away screaming by US Border Patrol agents; her mother picked her up and the two were taken away together.” The girl and her mother are being held together at a facility in Texas while her asylum request is processed, per CBS.
    `

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  81. 72. SarahW (3164f0) — 6/22/2018 @ 12:51 pm

    72.SAmmy, if the mother takes one dollar in tax

    It’s costing a lot more money in taxes to handle it this way.

    funded by her crime,

    I think this is a bit garbled.

    she has cheated an American…all Americans.

    I don’t think so.

    ANd no, a true mother takes separation over her selfish wishes, if it means the life of the child. Those raft journeys are treacherous and occupants drown with regularity.

    They are dangerous because of U.S. government policy, which has been to make these journesy more and more dangerous, and Obama was aspecialist in that, but we’ll leave that alone. Mother love is a very strong thing and it’s not so unusual for a mother who takes risks herself, to impose the same risk on her child. You’d need to have a very intelligent, and dispassionate mother to find someone who would not. It doesn’t mean she would endanger her child in normal (and more usual) circumstances. And it remains traumatic for the chld to be sseparated from her mother.

    You could accuse any unmarried woman who does not give up her child for adoption (where letss say she would know it would have agood home) of the very same sort of thing. women want the best for their children – but they also want to be involved.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  82. The girl and her mother are being held together at a facility in Texas while her asylum request is processed, per CBS.

    Since they are from Honduras, they should’ve requested asylum in Mexico or Guatamala. Since they didn’t, they should’ve been turned back at the border on that basis.

    random viking (6a54c2)

  83. an 8 year old boy named pedro who has been incarcerated since july when he was picked up at the border with his family will have to represent himself in federal court as he has no lawyer. source the hill.com. how would you like to represent yourself in federal court without a lawyer if you were eight?

    wilsonsmith (efb41f)

  84. 74. SarahW (3164f0) — 6/22/2018 @ 12:56 pm

    . She let her baby feel danger, hunger and thirst, and imperiled the child’s life, and stiller that child’s right to know her siblings and father, because that woman wanted to take money from other people.

    Where do we get that? And if she gets money, surely the child benefits, too?

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  85. 64… at least the film reference is not more than a quarter century ago, Pops.

    Colonel Haiku (f125a7)

  86. And it remains traumatic for the chld to be sseparated from her mother.

    Agreed. It must be traumatic for the three children she left back in Honduras.

    random viking (6a54c2)

  87. 84. wilsonsmith (efb41f) — 6/22/2018 @ 1:30 pm

    an 8 year old boy named pedro who has been incarcerated since july when he was picked up at the border with his family will have to represent himself in federal court as he has no lawyer. source the hill.com. how would you like to represent yourself in federal court without a lawyer if you were eight?

    Thw worst part of it is, he doesn’t know what matters to the judge. But this is considered a civil matter.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)


  88. MIAMI, FL (The Miami Herald) – A Honduran national in the United States illegally has been charged with killing two women in Miami over the past three months and dumping their bodies on the street, police announced Monday.


    Do you think the media will go ape sh!t over these two girls being “ripped” from their family? Me neither.

    Rev.Hoagie (c5d6cf)

  89. “how would you like to represent yourself in federal court without a lawyer if you were eight?”

    I’d play it like Al Pacino in “And Justice For All”. Really ham it up.

    I had to outdo Pops with this one…

    Colonel Haiku (f125a7)

  90. how would you like to represent yourself in federal court without a lawyer if you were eight?

    I smell a pro bono opportunity for all the lawyers on this site who think they have the “moral high ground.”

    random viking (6a54c2)

  91. 87. random viking (6a54c2) — 6/22/2018 @ 1:32 pm

    It must be traumatic for the three children she left back in Honduras.

    So, the United States government (or that of Texas) has to add to it? It isn’t doing that in this case, but why justify something that isn’t happening? I was arguing with SarahW why the child should not theoretically be removed for child endangerment reasons. Now i believe that should not happen in many other cases.

    As for her other children, it is less traumatic for the other children because they are older. . She probably didn’t take the others because she couldn’t afford to.

    Now the woman apparently kidnapped the child from her husband. We don’t know what her reasons are for wanting to be in the United States. Apparently she was in the United States before.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  92. MIAMI, FL (The Miami Herald) – A Honduran national in the United States illegally has been charged with killing two women in Miami over the past three months and dumping their bodies on the street, police announced Monday

    If the world were better run, he would have done his killing in Honduras, and gotten away with it longer. But maybe he wouldn’t be able to fid any prostt=itutes there.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  93. We don’t know what her reasons are for wanting to be in the United States.

    If she was crossing the border to meddle in an election on behalf of Trump, we would know that. Any other reason, the media doesn’t care, nor does anyone claiming the “moral high ground.”

    random viking (6a54c2)

  94. If you are against rape and murder, you don’t fight it by concentrating on enforcing laws that have to do with WHO YIU ARE and not WHAT YOU DO

    And, by the way, you can do much better profiling than that.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  95. an 8 year old boy named pedro who has been incarcerated since july when he was picked up at the border with his family will have to represent himself in federal court as he has no lawyer. source the hill.com. how would you like to represent yourself in federal court without a lawyer if you were eight?

    That is total, complete and utter horsesh!t Fake News. 8-year olds do not “represent themselves” in court. He will have a guardian-ad-litem who will have a contract attorney or a public defender, and the guardian-ad-litem himself or herself will likely be a lawyer. That’s two lawyers.

    nk (dbc370)

  96. Here’s a product geared for teh Left: … will help consumers to not only lose weight but also improve brain function, look younger and increase overall stupidity… https://www.cbsnews.com/news/hot-dog-water-sells-for-37-99-a-bottle/

    Colonel Haiku (f125a7)

  97. 94, random viking (6a54c2) — 6/22/2018 @ 1:45 pm

    If she was crossing the border to meddle in an election on behalf of Trump, we would know that. Any other reason, the media doesn’t care, nor does anyone claiming the “moral high ground.”

    The media often leaves out, or never gets to, important parts of a stiry (or they appear only when they get very long) but the point is still, you don’t kowwhat it was, but it probably had something to do with having a destination to go to, and friends in the United States.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  98. SarahW I would guess she brought the one baby to facilitate her entry into the US.

    She was in the US before. Why does she periodically leave her family and then come back? How did she earn money the last time she was here? How do her other children feel about being abandoned?

    Patricia (3363ec)

  99. Patricia (3363ec) — 6/22/2018 @ 1:52 pm

    I would guess she brought the one baby to facilitate her entry into the US.

    We don’t know if that’s the advice they get. It would make a lot of sense now, but it might not have made so muich sense a couple of months ago. The standard thing they were doing was paying later, for chldren to be sent unaccompanied.

    If standard smuggler policy applied, she would have been charged double for that.

    She was in the US before. Why does she periodically leave her family and then come back?

    It wasn’t like that.

    I think she was deported against her will.

    http://dailycaller.com/2018/06/22/mother-time-cover-deported/

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2018/06/22/the-crying-honduran-girl-on-the-cover-of-time-was-not-separated-from-her-mother-father-says/?utm_term=.31dbb320391e&noredirect=on

    ICE said Sanchez was previously deported to Honduras in July 2013.

    How did she earn money the last time she was here?

    ICE apaprently dod not release any further details. (Re-entry after deportation is a felony, not amisdemeanor, so that’s maybe why ICE mentioned it.)

    If they put investigative reporters on thsi, the Washngton Post could probably find out what went on here.

    How do her other children feel about being abandoned?

    Probably hoping they could be re-united in the United States.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  100. but it probably had something to do with having a destination to go to, and friends in the United States.

    But, she applied for asylum— so that can’t be.

    random viking (6a54c2)

  101. We don’t know if that’s the advice they get.

    This is prima facie evidence of someone very much removed from the problem.

    random viking (6a54c2)

  102. OT…

    Just as was the case on 5/9, the same number of ducklings (9) dropped from a nest (the same one) in the foliage into the pool yesterday mid-morning. We kept them and the hen, fed them and kept our Cairn terrier away until this morning… when my wife and I escorted them to the lake a couple of blocks away, fending off a hawk along the way and the daddy drake was sittin’ on a dock of the bay waiting for all of them. They all hit the lake and within a minute, what must’ve been a large fish made a move on the ducklings and the drake moved incredibly fast to fend it off. And they swam away…

    What a treat it was the first couple of days, watching the mother running them thru drills and toughening them up! We’re hoping this bunch fares better than the last. Too many bass, catfish, hawks, owls, raccoons, honey badg… no, wait, not them… to deal with.

    Colonel Haiku (f125a7)

  103. Actually they appeared on Wednesday morning… before crossing teh border of our hearts… sniffle… sniffle…

    Colonel Haiku (f125a7)

  104. but it probably had something to do with having a destination to go to, and friends in the United States.

    101. random viking (6a54c2) — 6/22/2018 @ 2:15 pm

    But, she applied for asylum— so that can’t be.

    That’s why she applied fror asylum in the United Stateds and not in Mexico.

    People don’t just go anywhere.

    I’ll tell you a case in point.

    There was a man in Afghanistan who converted to Christianity. He had, I think, a sister in Germany. he got into Europe but was deported from Germany to Italy, because the EU has a rule about a person going to the first safe country he arrives in (that’s why many in 2015 did not want to be fingerprinted).

    He was not cut out to be a lone immigrant and went to Pakistam where his wife’s relatives lived.

    Just in case he would need to claim asylum again he kept arecord of his case on a USB drive,

    He would regularly go to an Internet cafe.

    Someone he was staying with discoveredd his drive, which he had left at home.

    He was murdered by his wife’s family.
    ——————————————–

    Now her asylum case is probably based on a generalized danger, and may not actually qualify under U.S. laws – it probably depends on the whim of the judge and on whether it is morning or afternoon and what fraction of claims are being granted that week or month. They grade on a curve.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  105. The press doesn’t seem to understand that by lying and stretching the truth, they give Trump exactly the cover he needs to call his problems ‘fake news.’

    Maybe they understand but they think Trump haters don’t care.

    https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/jun/22/cnn-msnbc-cut-away-trump-event-angel-families/

    BuDuh (fc15db)

  106. She didn’t really mean it.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  107. Everybody is knocking down straw men. It’s easier.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  108. It goes without saying that the mom certainly thought she was doing right for the child she took, and I guess she thought she was doing right for the children she left behind too. My point here is not to judge her, but the media — because the misery of this child (whose crying face was splashed across newspapers all over the world) and the misery of the children she left behind (whose faces the world will likely never see) was not caused by the U.S. government. If it was caused by anyone, it was caused by her. That is not to judge her, but to judge the media which would have you believe instead that the crying face you have seen was Trump’s fault.
    Patterico (115b1f) — 6/22/2018 @ 9:50 am

    How do we know that she was doing what she thought was best for the child she had with her or the ones she left behind?

    The only thing we can be sure of is that she was doing what she thought was best for herself. Bringing the one kid could have been just because she thought it would give her a better shot at working the system with her bs refugee claim.

    And, why not judge her? She was breaking the laws of this country. She is a criminal, and it is legitimate to judge her as such.

    Anon Y. Mous (6cc438)

  109. Asylum for….wanting a job. A highly paid job. Her nice car is not nice enough.

    Sorry, bye bye.

    Patricia (3363ec)

  110. @44. Thanks for the thoughtful response Dustin. I actually agree with a lot of what you’re saying there. I think that all this hyper-partisanship is causing this country a lot of needless pain, for one thing. The two parties need to work together or our country is, to an extent, broken. Let’s stop demonizing each other and make our country work better.

    Tillman (d34303)

  111. Federal immigration courts faced a backlog of more than 700,000 cases in May, according to the Transactional Records Access Clearinghouse, or TRAC, at Syracuse University. In some courts, the average wait for an immigration hearing was over 1,400 days; some hearings are being scheduled beyond 2021 before an available slot on the docket is found. nyt

    So yeah, that was the situation in place when zero tolerance was effected. And the implications of that situation upon thousands of children – separated from their parents under zero tolerance — was and is why so many folks were/are sickened by that change in policy. D’uh. A very human reaction, or so many humans seem to think, or feel, or react. And the photo of the tyke crying by the side of the road certainly was a powerful image to prompt the humanness to well up in those humans, as they came to give more than 2 seconds worth of thoughts to the consequences of the separations entailed by the adoption of zero tolerance as effected.

    Q! (86710c)

  112. Bonding in the Shadows of H8

    Colonel Haiku (f125a7)

  113. > but advocating illegal aliens to drag their children into the United States so they can qualify for government handouts at the expense of hard working American families is certainly not the moral high ground.

    It’s amazing to me how, in some minds, advocating against being cruel in the way we *choose* to enforce our laws is identical to advocating not enforcing the laws.

    Where did it come from, this belief that it’s *necessary* to be cruel in order to succeed?

    From the perspective of someone who doesn’t share it, it looks an awful lot like a celebration of cruelty for cruelty’s sake.

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  114. It’s amazing to me how, in some minds, advocating against being cruel in the way we *choose* to enforce our laws is identical to advocating not enforcing the laws.

    People look at how we choose to enforce our laws and adjust accordingly. If we choose to be less “cruel” regarding children with adults, don’t be surprised if more adults opt to drag children with them.

    it looks an awful lot like a celebration of cruelty for cruelty’s sake.

    … if you’re goal is to shame the other side rather than addressing the problem.

    random viking (6a54c2)

  115. My point here is not to judge her…

    And that’s fine, but I’m not above judging Ms. Sanchez as a bad wife and bad mother for breaking up her family and putting her youngest daughter at risk.

    Paul Montagu (54c2a3)

  116. or if your goal is to point out that the choices we have made as a country, regarding the implementation of this policy, are utterly abominable and should be abandoned and replaced with different ones.

    some of the worst aspects of this policy began under the Obama administration, although I wasn’t aware of them until now. This isn’t a cudgel to use to beat Trump; it’s an abhorrent policy that we should never have started and that we should stop immediately.

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  117. and should be abandoned and replaced with different ones.

    Replaced with what exactly?

    random viking (6a54c2)

  118. Yes, aphrael. Seeing comments like random viking’s, Dysphoria Sam’s, Hoagie’s, and others of Trump’s supporters here, I cannot blame TIME and the other anti-Trump media all that much for being on the opposite extreme.

    nk (dbc370)

  119. It’s a bizarre allegation, random viking, that I can’t oppose a policy of forcibly seperating parents from their children unless I allow both of them to live with me in my 12×12 room.

    the forcible separation of illegal immigrant kids from their parents is repulsive. it risks permanent psychological damage for the children involved.

    the repeated attempts to justify it are nauseating, and leave me convinced that none of the people so justifying it consider the children involved to be human. because i’m absolutely certain that if it were to happen to someone you cared about, you’d be furious — but you’re not furious, because you don’t care about these children.

    i’m aware that you’re going to twist it back and find some way to demonstrate that i don’t really care about the children, i just care about Trump, or making myself look good. it’s a nice deflection coming from someone who would defend this.

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  120. random viking, at 119, any of these would be better:

    * housing immigrant families together while processing their asylum applications, in facilities that house them and not ordinary run of the mill prisoners

    * deporting the families together and then processing their asylum applications

    * releasing the families into the community on pledge of attending a hearing

    * releasing the families into the community wearing ankle monitors to ensure that we know where they are

    there are no perfect solutions. but we’ve managed to find one of the worst, and claiming that there’s no alternative betrays either a lack of imagination or an infidelity to the truth.

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  121. It’s a bizarre allegation, random viking, that I can’t oppose a policy of forcibly seperating parents from their children unless I allow both of them to live with me in my 12×12 room.

    It’s a bizarre allegation, aphrael, that I can’t oppose a policy of leniency which results in 1) people like me, not you, living with the consequences, and 2) results in more of this behavior (i.e., hauling kids) not less.

    random viking (6a54c2)

  122. nk and aphrael, there are plenty of pro bono opportunities for these immigrants which I assume you’ll be taking advantage of.

    random viking (6a54c2)

  123. You’re welcome to support a policy that punishes children for the actions of their parents, in the hope of deterring other parents. From where I stand, that policy is an active and outright evil; it is no different than torturing a man’s son to punish the man for torturing someone else.

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  124. Standing in the Shadows of Love Bonding in teh Shadows of Hate by the Two Fops

    Bonding in the shadows of hate
    They’re getting ready now before it’s too late
    Can’t you see ‘em bonding in the shadows of hate
    They’re getting ready now before it’s too late

    They run their mouths and hot winds start to blow
    ‘Cause comments will follow ‘em they know
    Without teh hate, teh hate they need
    It’s slim pickings on what they feed
    ‘Cause we’re taking away all their reasons for livin’
    When we push aside all the hate they been givin’
    Now wait a minute
    Didn’t they vote for Hillary, now didn’t they?
    Didn’t they do the best they could now, didn’t they?

    So don’t you see ‘em
    Bonding in the shadows of hate
    They’re getting ready now before it’s too late
    Don’t you see ‘em bonding in the shadows of hate
    Trying their best to get ready now before it too late

    All alone
    They’re destined to be, with memories their only company
    It may come today, but they won’t know when it’s coming
    But it’s for sure they’ll catch a kick in the plumbing
    Now don’t their logic kind of amuse you?
    How can you watch ‘em cry after all they done for you
    Hold on a minute
    Used up all teh brains they had now, didn’t they?
    When you laughed they were always funny, weren’t they?

    Colonel Haiku (f125a7)

  125. From the perspective of someone who doesn’t share it, it looks an awful lot like a celebration of cruelty for cruelty’s sake.

    Only because the standards of cruelty have shifted in our era. An era of affluence and security. Why not just be kind to everyone in this new age? Because then the world spins out of control with unintended consequences.

    One thing that is true is that however laws on immigration are enforced, someone will be cruelly disappointed: either the ones who move heaven and earth to get here and are deported or the ones who can’t get a good job or get a modest apartment because of the inflow of cheap labor. Cesar Chavez knew that. We know that illegals have dreams, but we have dreams too. People sound angry and cruel because they are frustrated that very few leaders seem to care about that.

    Patricia (3363ec)

  126. * deporting the families together and then processing their asylum applications

    This is pretty cruel. You would send the poor child back to the country they fled?? It is almost as if you would use that type of policy to deter them from making a long and dangerous trek in order to force them to obey our laws and apply for asylum in their country of origin.

    BuDuh (fc15db)

  127. Do you find the policies of these particular parents to be “active and outright evil?”

    Chris Cabrera, U.S. Customs and Border Patrol agent and spokesperson for the National Border Patrol Council, said Tuesday agents have seen girls coming across the border as young as 12 years old who are put on birth control “because they know getting violated is part of the journey”.

    “When you see a 12-year-old girl with a Plan B pill or her parents put her on birth control because they know getting violated is part of the journey, that’s a terrible way to live,” Cabrera said. “When you see a four-year-old girl traveling alone with just her parents’ phone number written across her shirt. I mean, come on now, you know, something needs to be done.”

    https://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2018/06/19/border-patrol-immigration-plan-b-birth-control/

    BuDuh (fc15db)

  128. You’re welcome to support a policy that punishes children for the actions of their parents, in the hope of deterring other parents.

    Do we separate kids from convicted American citizen felons to deter other parents from convicting felons? If we were lenient, it would certainly become an exploited loophole. But, that’s not why we do it. We do it because it’s the law, which for some reason you want leniency only at the border.

    random viking (6a54c2)

  129. How many kids have died or been killed crossing the border illegally versus how many have died in detention?

    If Liberals cared at all about kids they would support deterrent and detention.

    Nate Ogden (223c65)

  130. If We Want to End the Border Crisis, It’s Time to Give Trump His Wall

    “……Which means to say that in less than three weeks, we will be here again, with another excruciating dilemma. Do we set up vast tent cities and camps to imprison families indefinitely, or do we simply let these families go free, and hope they show up for a future court date? Either way, we solve nothing fundamental and leave a huge incentive for those trying to enter the U.S. illegally to bring children with them when they do. And that does happen. There is fraud and trafficking and opportunism as well as valid family-based escapes from violence and persecution, and it can be hard to tell one from the other.

    As in everything, Trump makes things worse. His rhetoric, his callousness, his wanton lies all make a compromise harder. It’s completely understandable that Democrats do not wish to let him off the hook in any way before November. But there’s a big conflict here if you actually want to end the suffering, or get at the real problem. If you do not want to jail kids with their parents indefinitely, or to maintain the incentive for illegal migrants to bring kids along for the harrowing ride, you need some sort of congressional action and soon. There’s something deeply wrong, it seems to me, with expressing the view that what the government is doing is barbaric and yet allowing the underlying cause of it to continue for political reasons. If that’s the case, then Trump is not the only one using kids as pawns. Chuck Schumer is too.

    So give him his fu****g wall. He won the election. He is owed this. It may never be completed; it may not work, as hoped. But it is now the only way to reassure a critical mass of Americans that mass immigration is under control, and the only way to make any progress under this president. And until the white working and middle classes are reassured, we will get nowhere. ”

    http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/amp/2018/06/to-end-the-border-crisis-for-good-give-trump-his-wall.html?__twitter_impression=true

    harkin (e5c973)

  131. They virtue signal and coo about so-called dreamers, while decrying the half of their own countrymen they describe as deplorables out of the other side of their pieholes.

    Colonel Haiku (f125a7)

  132. The best way to deal with illegal alien invaders of any age is wait till we have a bus full then drive them back to the border and push them into Mexico.
    Build The Wall!

    Rev.Hoagie (c5d6cf)

  133. Don’t forget Colonel, we’re cruel.

    Cruel is the new racist.

    Rev.Hoagie (c5d6cf)

  134. From where I stand, that policy is an active and outright evil; it is no different than torturing a man’s son to punish the man for torturing someone else.

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

    These are empty words unless you commit today to having at least 2 migrant families live with you and depend on you for sustenance.

    Colonel Haiku (f125a7)

  135. Most of the left believes we need much more immigration, without limits, without a concern about skills, education or even determining the numbers we’re letting in. IMO, this is shortsighted and it’s evil. It’s an oligarchy they want to establish.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  136. build a wall and build it high your urchin problem goes bye bye

    happyfeet (28a91b)


  137. IMO, this is shortsighted and it’s evil. It’s an oligarchy they want to establish.


    It may be a lot of things Colonel but short sighted ain’t one of’em. Their goal is to fundamentally change our nation and this is part of the way they intend to do it. They are saying “American citizenship has no value, any a$$ hole who crosses the border is welcome”. Sovereignty is a matter of political will and its enforcement is a matter of national health. They are laying the groundwork for future democrat leftist voters with no idea of what America is about and who could care less. They are not coming to America to add value to our nation but to steal its wealth. Millions of second and third world low IQ socialists coming from socialist countries and only going to add to our ever growing socialist/leftist dilemma.

    We don’t need immigrants now and we certainly should NEVER accept illegal alien invaders who mock out laws.

    Rev.Hoagie (c5d6cf)

  138. In my opinion, the traitorous bastages that believe border enforcement is a cruel, immoral practice deserve no better than the Rosenburgs. We are being invaded by the globalists via unchecked immigration in a way no different in essence than if Russia was landing troop ships on the west coast. The silly nitwits complaining may as well be saying we shouldn’t resist else else children may be killed cry.

    We are in a fight for our very nation. You people signaling your virtue over the children need to place the blame on the parents putting them in the situation, and the government’s they are fleeing, not on a president or any other American politician that swore an oath to protect the country.

    North America is already the most multi ethnic place on the planet, why don’t you moral preeners go to any other continent on the planet and sell your multiculturalism there? Sell the Chinese on becoming a quarter African. Go to Africa and sell them on being a quarter white. Head to South America and tell them to be more Asian.

    We have enough of it.

    Unless a white majority Christian nation us too offensive for your high morals of course…

    the Bas (ca2d1a)

  139. @132 . Thanks, harkin. Good push on the Sullivan article. Interesting, and perhaps persuasive. Myself, I’ll give it a good mull.

    Q! (86710c)

  140. Do we separate kids from convicted American citizen felons to deter other parents from convicting felons? If we were lenient, it would certainly become an exploited loophole. But, that’s not why we do it. We do it because it’s the law, which for some reason you want leniency only at the border.

    That is truly a non comparison.
    Kids of felons are either living with a second custodial parent or rapidly transferred to the other parent, or placed with close relatives. And felon and kid are able to keep in touch.
    They’re not sent hundreds of miles away to be warehoused with dozens of other kids and without the ability to maintain even minimal contact with their family.

    kishnevi (20d062)

  141. That is truly a non comparison.
    Kids of felons are either living with a second custodial parent or rapidly transferred to the other parent, or placed with close relatives. And felon and kid are able to keep in touch.
    They’re not sent hundreds of miles away to be warehoused with dozens of other kids and without the ability to maintain even minimal contact with their family.
    kishnevi (20d062) — 6/22/2018 @ 6:31 pm

    What do you think the announcement by the major airlines is about? The reason they don’t want to carry the kids separated from their parents is to prevent them from being reunited with their families. Like most corporations, they agree with the leftists who want catch and release. Like you do.

    Anon Y. Mous (6cc438)

  142. Kids of felons are either living with a second custodial parent or rapidly transferred to the other parent, or placed with close relatives.

    Is that because the relatives are known to the US justice system?

    BuDuh (76face)

  143. Like most corporations, they agree with the leftists who want catch and release. Like you do.

    They don’t even want that, they want everyone unhindered by borders. It’s like when they say they just want sensible gun control, then really they want guns out of the hands of civilians altogether.

    They lie.

    the Bas (ca2d1a)

  144. “When”, not then.

    the Bas (ca2d1a)

  145. When incoherent network collides with incoherent interviewee:

    https://mobile.twitter.com/OutFrontCNN/status/1010311123747287040/video/1

    harkin (e5c973)

  146. Yes, aphrael. Seeing comments like random viking’s, Dysphoria Sam’s, Hoagie’s, and others of Trump’s supporters here, I cannot blame TIME and the other anti-Trump media all that much for being on the opposite extreme ginning up completely false situations, reportage, photos, allegations or impugning the motivation behind a desire to see America’s immigration laws enforced and our borders secured.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  147. FTFY nk.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  148. Certainly something in the right direction . . .

    Senators Introduce Legislation to Keep Families Together and Ensure the Integrity of Immigration Laws
    June 20, 2018

    Contact: Caroline Tabler or James Arnold (202) 224-2353

    Washington D.C. – Today, a group of senators led by Thom Tillis (R-NC), Marco Rubio (R-FL), Lindsey Graham (R-SC), Ron Johnson (R-WI), Tom Cotton (R-AR), John Cornyn (R-TX), Ted Cruz (R-TX), and Dean Heller (R-NV) introduced the Keep Families Together and Enforce the Law Act, which keeps families together while ensuring the integrity of our nation’s immigration laws. The legislation requires that children and their parents remain together during their legal proceedings.

    Original co-sponsors include Chuck Grassley (R-IA), James Lankford (R-OK), Deb Fischer (R-NE), Joni Ernst (R-IA), Jerry Moran (R-KS), Ben Sasse (R-NE), Pat Roberts (R-KS), Steve Daines (R-MT), Johnny Isakson (R-GA), Jeff Flake (R-AZ), Orrin Hatch (R-UT), Jim Inhofe (R-OK), John Thune (R-SD), Bob Corker (R-TN), Mike Crapo (R-ID), John Hoeven (R-ND), John Boozman (R-AR), Rob Portman (R-OH), and Mitch McConnell (R-KY).

    The Keep Families Together and Enforce the Law Act includes provisions to ensure the humane and fair treatment of migrant children and families by setting mandatory standards of care for family residential centers. Families will be ensured access to suitable living accommodations, food and water, medical assistance, and any other service necessary for their care.

    In addition to keeping children and their parents together, the legislation also keeps children safe by requiring children to be removed from an individual who presents a clear and present danger to the health and safety of the child, including: situations in which DHS cannot verify an individual is the parent of the child; a parent with a violent history of committing aggravated felonies; a child who is a victim of sexual or domestic abuse; a child who is a victim of trafficking.

    To prioritize the timely adjudication of family cases, the legislation authorizes 225 new immigration judges and requires the Secretary of Homeland Security and the Attorney General to prioritize resolving the cases of children and families in family residential centers.
    Unlike other proposals – which incentivize illegal immigration by codifying “catch and release” policies into law – this legislation actually solves the problem by keeping families together while also ensuring the integrity of our immigration laws.

    “Migrant children should not be separated from their families, and both sides of the aisle can agree that we must quickly and permanently address this problem. Our legislation provides the solution by clarifying federal law to ensure that families will remain together and receive good care as they go through the legal process,” said Senator Thom Tillis. “I look forward to working with my colleagues in the coming days and codifying this fair and commonsense solution into law.”

    “It is cruel to separate families. But it is also cruel and irresponsible to return to a policy that encourages parents to bring their children on a dangerous journey,” said Senator Marco Rubio. “This bill will allow us to change the law so that families will remain together while awaiting prioritized proceedings. We should pass it immediately and reunite families.”

    “I very much support this solution to a difficult problem,” said Senator Lindsey Graham. “Simply put, my goal is to make sure families are not separated, but prevent the rampant abuse of ‘catch and release’ where people are being released who never show up for their hearings. This bill prevents breakup for families, but requires adults to show up. This is the winning combination.”

    “This bill would protect children and ensure that families are not separated while their cases are being adjudicated in court, and would end the policy of catch and release of families at the border,” said Senator Ron Johnson. “We must stop incentivizing people to come to this country illegally. I hope that my Democrat colleagues in the Senate will work with us to advance this bill into law.”

    “This legislation would keep families together while their immigration status is determined instead of simply releasing illegal immigrants into our country,” said Senator Tom Cotton. “This is a very difficult situation, but our bill provides a simple solution, one that will both stop the separation of families and enforce our laws.”

    “Treating these families with compassion by allowing them to remain together and enforcing the laws on our books don’t have to be mutually exclusive,” said Senator John Cornyn. “This legislation allows children to stay with their parents while they await their court proceedings in a separate, safe facility. The Keep Families Together and Enforce the Law Act is a solution everyone can get behind, and I urge Democrats to join our efforts so we can end this crisis quickly.”

    “The crisis occurring on the border is one we’ve witnessed for far too long,” said Senator Ted Cruz. “Children have been the greatest victims of our broken immigration system. This must stop. Congress can come together and ensure that children are kept with their parents while they await a hearing. I hope that my Democratic colleagues will join us to end this crisis, enforce the rule of law, and keep families together.”

    “Nobody wants to see children separated from their families, period. That’s why I joined several of my colleagues in urging Attorney General Jeff Sessions to stop the practice of dividing families who have illegally crossed the border until Congress can pass legislation to keep families together,” said Senator Dean Heller. “The Keep Families Together and Enforce the Law Act is that legislation, and I was proud to help introduce it.”

    “This is a simple, straight-forward solution to a problem we all agree needs fixing,” said Senator Chuck Grassley. “It reflects the American people’s humanity and respects the rule of law by permanently ensuring that families can stay together in family residential centers while their cases are pending. This is exactly our purview as members of the legislative branch: make laws to address pressing issues. There is an urgent need to end the crisis, so I look forward to the bill’s rapid consideration.”

    “We are a nation that believes in the rule of law, the unity of families, and the protection of children; our immigration laws must reflect these values,” said Senator James Lankford. This common-sense bill keeps families together as much as possible at the border. Now is also the time to fix our outdated immigration laws to secure the border, address DACA, crack down on human trafficking, and also incentivize the legal immigration process.”

    “The targeted legislative proposal we are offering today focuses on immediately fixing this problem and keeping families together,” said Senator Deb Fischer. “It would expedite immigration court proceedings in these cases and help keep children safe during the process. This can become law and solve the problem if our colleagues choose to set politics aside – I hope they will.”

    “We can, and should, treat children and families in our immigration system with compassion, while enforcing our nation’s immigration laws. Everyone is working hard to keep these families together and find a long-term solution to address our flawed immigration system,” said Senator Joni Ernst.

    “The act of forcibly separating children from their parents is a clear sign of how broken our immigration system is and contradicts our values as Americans,” said Senator Jerry Moran. “Our priority must be the welfare of these children. These separations must end, and I urge my colleagues to support this legislation and promptly fix this circumstance.”

    “Three things are true,” said Senator Ben Sasse. “First, default family separation is cruel – kids belong with their moms and dads whenever possible. Second, our immigration policy is broken – dumb policies are magnets for human traffickers and the unsecure border is a national security risk. Third, Americans don’t use children as political hostages – anyone trying to use this humanitarian crisis for politics should be ashamed. I’ve called on the President to end this new, discretionary policy and I’m committed to working with my colleagues on legislative solutions as well. The Administration can change course today and Congress can pass this legislation today – let’s get this done.”

    “Protecting the children coming across our borders must be a priority,” said Senator Pat Roberts. “This common sense legislation ensures parents who can prove their relationship to the child are kept together as a family throughout immigration proceedings.”

    “Our bill immediately addresses the humanitarian crisis at our border,” said Senator Steve Daines. “Families should not be torn apart as they work their way through our legal system.”

    “We should not separate children from their parents at the border, and Congress and the administration should work to keep families together whenever possible while enforcing our laws and protecting the border,” said Senator Johnny Isakson. “Our porous borders combined with challenging conditions in other parts of the world have caused an influx of immigrants entering the country illegally. The Keep Families Together and Enforce the Law Act would help us confront this influx and improve the processing of immigration cases by adding judges and residential centers while also allowing families to stay together.”

    “The issue of family separation at the border demands a legislative solution,” said Senator Orrin Hatch. “We cannot continue to separate young children from their parents, but we also cannot continue with misguided, ineffective catch-and-release policies. This legislation provides the solution we need. It keeps families together while cases are processed without tying the hands of law enforcement.”

    “I’m proud to support this key legislation that would that would overturn the court case that requires family separation, permanently addressing the root cause of the crisis,” said Senator Jim Inhofe. “As we continue to improve our border security and build the wall, this legislation focuses on keeping families together and ensuring they receive proper care.”

    “While the issues surrounding our immigration system are complex, we can all agree that innocent children should be protected, and I am hopeful the administration will take executive action to halt the separation of families on our southern border,” said Senator Bob Corker. “Congress also must act and provide a longer term solution to the many challenges facing our nation’s immigration system. The Keep Families Together and Enforce the Law Act is an important step in the right direction.”

    Q! (86710c)

  149. How do you get past the flores settlement, this is the problem, a court that steadfastly ignores the law?

    Narciso (267def)

  150. Kardashian… Stallone… and now… Tom Arnold finds the key light.

    America- are you not entertained?!?!

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  151. No, guardians in interesting probably ant man and the wasp, but that’s just sad:

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5875505/FBI-agent-Sally-Moyer-seen-time-identity-revealed.html

    Narciso (267def)

  152. Yes, aphrael. Seeing comments like random viking’s, Dysphoria Sam’s, Hoagie’s, and others of Trump’s supporters here, I cannot blame TIME and the other anti-Trump media all that much for being on the opposite extreme.

    nk (dbc370) — 6/22/2018 @ 4:22 pm

    Exactly. This is just how people seem to want to communicate these days. And it’s not like the racism point isn’t 100% BS. Many of the Trump fans at this blog defended the use of “half-breed” as an expression of criticism for a person with one black and one white parent.

    “Why in the 1913 dictionary it doesn’t really come right out and say that’s offensive, yuck yuck!”

    Yeah, both fringes have taken over their movements. Both condemn the other for the same stuff they do, and they are well aware they are doing it. It’s a sport now.

    Dustin (ba94b2)

  153. You were ready to hang without need for a trial, quell surprise, Frankly the collapse of the entire enforcement framework was fine with You, to prove a point

    Narciso (267def)

  154. finally a mission these losers can maybe handle

    U.S. Navy drafts plans to house 25,000 immigrants at cost of $233 million

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  155. keyword maybe

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  156. You know what’s weird? A litigious Stormy Daniels and lawyer Avenatti haven’t gone after Benjamin Szemkus (Who?).

    Well, he’s a guy who claims he went to a recruiting party for the sex cult NXIVM in Connecticut in 2007. According to him, this party was attended by Miss Daniels, Anthony Weiner, Huma Abedin, Daniel Schniederman, Keith Raniere and Allison Mack. Oh, and some Yale chippies.

    I have to note that most of them are full blown perverts, so maybe it’s all a clever hoax.

    Frank Report

    Pinandpuller (89c2b4)

  157. Its,as reasonable as anything else, they were doing back then

    Narciso (267def)

  158. You may call it creative writing but he really nails the Abedin’s:

    Coming back in there were a few more arrivals. A petite Arabian woman with a far away stare came in with a few pretty women and then a fast sweaty man entered wearing a white dress shirt no tie. The Arabian was a bit ticked off Sweaty Man was running late but he snapped something back about 95 traffic then started working the room introducing himself. The Arab Woman had a look of Mystique and locked eyes with Me from across the room almost trance-like. I spoke to White Dress Shirt Sweaty Man he introduced himself as Anthony Weiner. He points at Arab woman saying, ‘That’s My Wife Huma.’

    Pinandpuller (89c2b4)

  159. I might just need a drink after reading this:

    George Will is making the argument to vote against Republicans in the upcoming midterm elections.

    http://thehill.com/homenews/393728-george-will-argues-for-voting-against-the-gop-in-midterms

    Tillman (d34303)

  160. The picture looks like an old Mad magazine cover

    mg (9e54f8)

  161. Later that night Weiner probably yelled “hey, that’s my wife!” the same way and in the same situation as William H. Macy in Boogie Nights.

    urbanleftbehind (868dc7)

  162. Mg, that reminds me, we should have a contest for best back inside cover fold-in message.

    urbanleftbehind (868dc7)

  163. June 22, 2018
    “The original version of this story misstated what happened to the girl in the photo after she taken from the scene. The girl was not carried away screaming by U.S. Border Patrol agents; her mother picked her up and the two were taken away together.”

    Time Magazine adds a correction to its cover story “‘All I Wanted to Do Was Pick Her Up.’ How a Photographer at the U.S.-Mexico Border Made an Image America Could Not Ignore/’This one was tough for me. As soon as it was over, they were put into a van. I had to stop and take deep breaths,’ Getty photographer John Moore said.”

    “Time doesn’t seem that distraught about its separation from the truth, but I’m assuming that’s because it sees its story as fake but accurate.”

    https://althouse.blogspot.com/2018/06/the-original-version-of-this-story.html

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  164. Someone should be keeping track of the number of “winning issues” the Democrats gin-up against Trump only to see their hopes and dreams dashed on the rocks of Fakebutaccurate.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  165. According to Ari Fleischer they didn’t mean to be Fakebutaccurate, Mr Colonel Haiku.

    Pinandpuller (564054)

  166. From the Clavichord to the Modern Piano

    Part I

    Part II

    Pinandpuller (564054)

  167. @159.’finally a mission these losers can maybe handle: U.S. Navy drafts plans to house 25,000 immigrants at cost of $233 million’

    $233 million? That’s the price of maybe a hundred Tomahawk cruise missiles! Oh those aviator bargain hunters; the ‘can-do carpet bombers’ now can do wall-to-wall-carpeting, eh, Mr. Feet?!
    ________

    @164.’I might just need a drink after reading this: George Will is making the argument to vote against Republicans in the upcoming midterm elections.’

    Champagne! Toast another Reagan-era-toady recognizing his relevance has evaporated along with the modern conservative movement. It’s a triumph; it’s Trump’s party now.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  168. It boggles my mind how many people seem to think that everyone can just come here and live and it will be kumbaya with no negative to those who live here. Borders exist for a reason. A world government does not.

    NJRob (b00189)

  169. Will was anti-Reagan ASPCA. He jumped on the bandwagon when he saw he could make money from it. Now he’s just going home to you and yours.

    NJRob (b00189)

  170. “Inherit teh Taint” from Paramount Studios coming to theaters Summer of 2020…

    “Special counsel Robert Mueller’s investigation may face a serious legal obstacle: It is tainted by antecedent political bias. The June 14 report from Michael Horowitz, the Justice Department’s inspector general, unearthed a pattern of anti-Trump bias by high-ranking officials at the Federal Bureau of Investigation. Some of their communications, the report says, were “not only indicative of a biased state of mind but imply a willingness to take action to impact a presidential candidate’s electoral prospects.” Although Mr. Horowitz could not definitively ascertain whether this bias “directly affected” specific FBI actions in the Hillary Clinton email investigation, it nonetheless affects the legality of the Trump-Russia collusion inquiry, code-named Crossfire Hurricane.

    Crossfire was launched only months before the 2016 election. Its FBI progenitors—the same ones who had investigated Mrs. Clinton—deployed at least one informant to probe Trump campaign advisers, obtained Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court wiretap warrants, issued national security letters to gather records, and unmasked the identities of campaign officials who were surveilled. They also repeatedly leaked investigative information.

    Mr. Horowitz is separately scrutinizing Crossfire and isn’t expected to finish for months. But the current report reveals that FBI officials displayed not merely an appearance of bias against Donald Trump, but animus bordering on hatred. Peter Strzok, who led both the Clinton and Trump investigations, confidently assuaged a colleague’s fear that Mr. Trump would become president: “No he won’t. We’ll stop it.” An unnamed FBI lawyer assigned to Crossfire told a colleague he was “devastated” and “numb” after Mr. Trump won, while declaring to another FBI attorney: “Viva le resistance.”

    The report highlights the FBI’s failure to act promptly upon discovering that Anthony Weiner’s laptop contained thousands of Mrs. Clinton’s emails. Investigators justified the delay by citing the “higher priority” of Crossfire. But Mr. Horowitz writes: “We did not have confidence that Strzok’s decision to prioritize the Russia investigation over following up on [the] investigative lead discovered on the Weiner laptop was free from bias.”

    Similarly, although Mr. Horowitz found no evidence that then-FBI Director James Comey was trying to influence the election, Mr. Comey did make decisions based on political considerations. He told the inspector general that his election-eve decision to reopen the Clinton email investigation was motivated by a desire to protect her assumed presidency’s legitimacy.

    The inspector general wrote that Mr. Strzok’s text messages “created the appearance that investigative decisions were impacted by bias or improper considerations.” The report adds, importantly, that “most of the text messages raising such questions pertained to the Russia investigation.” Given how biases ineluctably shape behavior, these facts create a strong inference that by squelching the Clinton investigation and building a narrative of Trump-Russia collusion, a group of government officials sought to bolster Mrs. Clinton’s electoral chances and, if the unthinkable happened, obtain an insurance policy to cripple the Trump administration with accusations of illegitimacy.

    Yes. Plus:

    What does this have to do with Mr. Mueller, who was appointed in May 2017 after President Trump fired Mr. Comey? The inspector general concludes that the pervasive bias “cast a cloud over the FBI investigations to which these employees were assigned,” including Crossfire. And if Crossfire was politically motivated, then its culmination, the appointment of a special counsel, inherited the taint. All special-counsel activities—investigations, plea deals, subpoenas, reports, indictments and convictions—are fruit of a poisonous tree, byproducts of a violation of due process. That Mr. Mueller and his staff had nothing to do with Crossfire’s origin offers no cure.

    When the government deprives a person of life, liberty or property, it is required to use fundamentally fair processes. The Supreme Court has made clear that when governmental action “shocks the conscience,” it violates due process. Such conduct includes investigative or prosecutorial efforts that appear, under the totality of the circumstances, to be motivated by corruption, bias or entrapment.

    In U.S. v. Russell (1973), the justices observed: “We may someday be presented with a situation in which the conduct of law enforcement agents is so outrageous that due process principles would absolutely bar the government from invoking judicial processes to obtain a conviction.” It didn’t take long. In Blackledge v. Perry (1974), the court concluded that due process was offended by a prosecutor’s “realistic likelihood of ‘vindictiveness’ ” that tainted the “very initiation of proceedings.” . . .

    The totality of the circumstances creates the appearance that Crossfire was politically motivated. Since an attempt by federal law enforcement to influence a presidential election “shocks the conscience,” any prosecutorial effort derived from such an outrageous abuse of power must be suppressed. The public will learn more once the inspector general finishes his investigation into Crossfire’s genesis. But given what is now known, due process demands, at a minimum, that the special counsel’s activity be paused. Those affected by Mr. Mueller’s investigation could litigate such an argument in court. One would hope, however, that given the facts either Mr. Mueller himself or Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein would do it first.”

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/muellers-fruit-of-the-poisonous-tree-1529707087

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)


  171. 120.Yes, aphrael. Seeing comments like random viking’s, Dysphoria Sam’s, Hoagie’s, and others of Trump’s supporters here, I cannot blame TIME and the other anti-Trump media all that much for being on the opposite extreme.
    nk (dbc370) — 6/22/2018 @ 4:22 pm

    “Time and the other anti-Trump media” are not supposed to compose “the opposite extreme”. They’re supposed to report the news, the truth, objectively. They have become the propaganda mouthpiece of the far left elitists. They are American Pravda. They support the end of America. They are the enemy. You should also know the “opposite extreme” to Time and their leftist ideologues is anybody right of Bernie Sanders or haven’t you noticed how extreme the extreme left has gotten?

    I can’t speak for Dysphoria Sam or random viking but only for myself and I’m a Trump supporter because I’m an America supporter or haven’t you noticed the type of people who hate Trump? What does Fonda, DeNero, Bee and Colbert support? It certainly isn’t America. People who hate Trump Hate America. BTW, I was not a “Trump supporter” until the leftists made me one. The louder you guys cry the more I support Trump. I know a lot of people like that.

    Rev.Hoagie (c5d6cf)

  172. Let’s face facts: enforcing the law against law-breakers is harsh, and it’s meant to be. Every one of these illegal immigrants has a sob story, and you have to be an [insert slang term for the rectum here] like me to not care what their sob story is.

    The only way to never separate such families is to take them, immediately upon being caught, put them on a bus, and send them straight back to Mexico, no questions asked.

    Don’t ‘process’ them, don’t ask them any questions, don’t do anything for them, just send them back. Tell Mexico that we are going to dump them across the border in Ciudad Juárez, Mexico can take care of them, and if they starve over there, they starve.

    We will never stop illegal immigration by being nice and kind; we can only stop illegal immigration by being heartless and tough.

    The Dana who is an (insert slang term for the rectum here). (9d97ce)

  173. Mr Tillman wrote:

    Look, you can be against the whole-sale migration of Mexico into America. Most people, including myself, want to prevent that. There should be limits in place. But you can’t do it this way. It’s far too cruel to innocent children.

    Yes, actually, we can do it that way, and we should do it that way. Law enforcement is invariably cruel, imposing a penalty on malefactors for breaking the law. When you think to make things softer, kinder, less cruel, you weaken deterrence.

    The coldly realistic Dana (9d97ce)

  174. And just to illustrate how radically left the leftists have moved in the last dew years….
    https://i2.wp.com/www.powerlineblog.com/ed-assets/2018/06/Who-Said-It.jpeg?resize=580%2C406

    Rev.Hoagie (c5d6cf)

  175. aphrael wrote:

    It’s a bizarre allegation, random viking, that I can’t oppose a policy of forcibly seperating parents from their children unless I allow both of them to live with me in my 12×12 room.

    ‘twould also be a bizarre claim that, because you won’t allow them to share your 144 ft² room, I should have to provide a domicile, and food, and water, and clothing, for them out of my tax dollars.

    Only strict enforcement, only cruel enforcement, of our border laws will stem the tide of illegal immigrants.

    The taxpayer Dana (9d97ce)

  176. aphrael wrote:

    random viking, at 119, any of these would be better:

    * housing immigrant families together while processing their asylum applications, in facilities that house them and not ordinary run of the mill prisoners
    * deporting the families together and then processing their asylum applications
    * releasing the families into the community on pledge of attending a hearing
    * releasing the families into the community wearing ankle monitors to ensure that we know where they are

    there are no perfect solutions. but we’ve managed to find one of the worst, and claiming that there’s no alternative betrays either a lack of imagination or an infidelity to the truth.

    The highlighted ‘suggestion’ is what the left want, of course, knowing damned well that few of them would ever actually show up for such a hearing, but would try to disappear into the community. The only one of your proposed ideas which is any good at all is the second, immediate deportation first, and processing the application for asylum second.

    Were it up to me, their applications for asylum would then be processed by throwing them into the dumpster.

    Yes, I do know what ‘asylum’ means, and I am no more sympathetic to such claimants than I am to ‘economic’ refugees. We should allow entrance only to those immigrants who can, and do, demonstrate the ability to support themselves once here. Asylum seekers are almost always going to be desperately poor, having left every means of supporting themselves back home.

    The heartless but nevertheless realistic Dana (9d97ce)

  177. Cruelty should not be the determining factor in the preservation of America. Those “innocent children” have been weaponized to be used to attack America. We did not do that. Their parents did that. They all need to be driven to the border and pushed back into Mexico. And when the Mexicans start bitching these folks came from Honduras tell them it’s their own fault for letting them cross Mexico but they ain’t getting in America.

    Rev.Hoagie (c5d6cf)


  178. We should allow entrance only to those immigrants who can, and do, demonstrate the ability to support themselves once here.


    Agreed but with one caveat: They should also want to assimilate and become American and speak American English.

    Rev.Hoagie (c5d6cf)

  179. WE absolutely must put an end to all immigration now. Build the Wall! It is a matter of America’s very existence.

    Mexican presidential candidate Andrés Manuel López Obrador (AMLO) called for mass immigration to the United States during a speech Tuesday declaring it a “human right” for all North Americans.

    “And soon, very soon — after the victory of our movement — we will defend all the migrants in the American continent and all the migrants in the world,” Obrador said, adding that immigrants “must leave their towns and find a life in the United States.”

    He then declared it as “a human right we will defend,” eluniversal.com reports.

    While the election is not until July 1, Obrador is by far the frontrunner.

    Yes, this douche is a socialist which only makes building The Wall more urgent as people generally flee socialist countries. And this pig thinks it’s a “universal right” to invade the US.

    Rev.Hoagie (c5d6cf)

  180. As usual amlo has got the cart before the horse, his policies will force Mexicans to depart in mass.

    Narciso (71ac81)

  181. The need to preserve America as we know it. Some people don’t understand the gravity of the situation, hence the mealy-mouthed, virtue signaling. No non-citizen has a “right” to enter this country. People of good faith had better unite on the need to secure our borders and limit the number of immigrants we allow in. The limitations should use skill-set, education, the ability to support themselves right out of the blocks as the qualifiers.

    Colonel Haiku (f125a7)

  182. But coronello, lewandowski said a mean thing, good grief can we get a grip?

    Narciso (71ac81)

  183. They are not cursed by early voting as much we are up here—get some rebar and redi-mix down to Nogales and Deming stat. On the other hand, Giuliani’s consultancy for AMLO in the early 2000s was probably one of his worst moments pre-CNN heel.

    urbanleftbehind (ca1f6b)

  184. Well dick Morris handled the pan contract, if you’ve read the cartel you should know they took amlo as an article of faith.

    Narciso (71ac81)

  185. Victory as an article of faith, you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him drink it.

    Narciso (71ac81)

  186. That inauguration day in ’06 was funny as hell though.

    urbanleftbehind (ca1f6b)

  187. @132. Actually, I think Andrew Sullivan was channeling me from five months ago, although our reasoning differs somewhat.

    Paul Montagu (54c2a3)

  188. the wall is the tangible representation of the will to enforce, as has been pointed out before the courts do what they with the actual law:

    https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-06-22/meet-mystery-fbi-agent-5-who-sent-anti-trump-texts-while-clinton-taint-team

    narciso (d1f714)

  189. So George Will is saying vote against the party that much more closely represents your views because they are too compliant to the president’s wishes and instead vote for the party whose policies are driving the country to ruin because they can prevent him from doing anything you might agree with?

    harkin (e5c973)

  190. The business of hating Trump supporters is growing. Sarah Sanders was 86’d from a restaurant.

    I look forward to the reactions here.

    AZ Bob (07f1eb)

  191. harkin, George Will is saying “vote democrat” because like all neverTrumpers he has decided it’s better to be ruled by leftists than side with America. He doesn’t want to make America great again. He apparently agrees with abortion, open borders, 59 genders, hate speech, weaponizing government against the people, the Deep State and so on. Will is now the enemy.

    Rev.Hoagie (c5d6cf)

  192. I saw that AZ Bob. Isn’t it amazing that when leftists act like bigots it’s okay?

    Rev.Hoagie (c5d6cf)

  193. Whenever I see photos like this photoshopped version of the kid with Trump, or the original photo of the kid, I think of Kirsten Dunst in “Wag the Dog” in the scene in which Dustin Hoffman hands her the bag of Tostitos.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  194. Still waiting for the open borders crowd to explain whether they believe borders exist and if everyone has a right to come here if they choose?

    NJRob (b00189)

  195. @174. More like he was one of the toadies who got the ‘bandwagon’ rolling:

    ‘Will helped Ronald Reagan prepare for his 1980 debate against Jimmy Carter. Immediately after the debate, Will—not yet a member of the ABC News staff—appeared on ABC’s Nightline. He was introduced by host Ted Koppel, who said “It’s my understanding that you met for some time yesterday with Governor Reagan”, and that Will “never made any secret of his affection” for the Republican candidate. Will did not explicitly disclose that he had assisted Reagan’s debate preparation, or been present during it. He went on to praise Reagan’s “thoroughbred” performance, saying his “game plan worked well. I don’t think he was very surprised”‘.- source wikiWill

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  196. 165.The picture looks like an old Mad magazine cover

    “What? She worry?!”

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  197. @196. The business of hating Trump supporters is growing…

    Yeah, from within the Trump White House:

    Another mess for Pruitt: Overstaying his White House welcome at lunch. Too many visits for lunch at the Mess earned a rebuke from the White House.

    EPA Administrator Scott Pruitt loves eating at the White House mess, an exclusive U.S. Navy-run restaurant open only to White House officials, Cabinet members and other dignitaries. But apparently he liked it too much, and the White House asked him to please eat elsewhere sometimes. -source, politico.com

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  198. After hours Trump…

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3PvcpWbUIg

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  199. Unsurprisingly (to me; I’m a fan), Heather Mac Donald, writing at CityJournal.org, has a concise take on the current border/immigration controversy that is spot on: Who’s Really to Blame at the Border?
    The current distress and hysteria is the fault of illegal aliens and their enablers in the courts
    . Key paragraph (boldface mine):

    Underlying this episode were several cardinal principles of left-wing activism: that favored victim groups must never be held responsible for their actions, and that policy should be made based on immediate claims of need, with no regard to long-term consequences. The reigning assumption during the family-separation meltdown was that the adults who brought children with them across the border had no responsibility for their subsequent plight. The only actor with agency was the federal government; it alone bore the blame for alien minors being placed in detention facilities. Yet the but-for cause of the child separation was the adult’s decision to cross illegally into the U.S., child in tow. If you don’t want to be separated from your or another person’s child, don’t cross the border illegally. Likewise, any whisper of immigration enforcement inside the border is inevitably greeted with cries that such enforcement would cause illegal aliens to be “fearful.” If you don’t want to fear deportation, don’t assume the risk of deportation, however slight that risk may be, by illegal entry.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  200. We are seeing a few articles about other kinds of separation of prents from children, although not , I think, in the tabloids who usually cheer it on and compalin not enough children were removed from their parents any time a small child gets killed by a caretaker. (usually a man living with the mother, who is neither the father of the chid or married to the mother. Sometimes by a mother who doesn’t love the child.)

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/19/opinion/children-border-separated-foster-care-trauma.html

    Their parents were, for the moment, unable to provide a safe home for them. But even when it’s necessary, removing children from their parents causes acute distress. I witnessed that suffering. It lived in my home.

    My older daughter began having nightmares that “the people” would take her away from us and give her to another family. She was inconsolable. “If it could happen to them,” she asked with the cleareyed logic of a 7-year-old, “why can’t it happen to us?”

    I tried telling her that it happens only to parents who don’t, or can’t, take care of their children. It happens only when parents aren’t doing what they’re supposed to do.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/22/us/family-separation-americans-prison-jail.html

    Advocates for criminal justice reform have argued that Americans appalled at the treatment of immigrant families at the border should realize that prosecutors and the police routinely separate children from their parents. It happens when parents or children are arrested, it happens when incarcerated women give birth — it can even be triggered when a pregnant woman fails a mandatory drug test, or when a child skips school. It comes with no warning, sometimes in the middle of the night….

    There are some 400,000 children in the foster care system, many of whom are prohibited from any parental contact. Of those, about 12 percent are housed in institutional settings or group homes.

    These children are typically taken by officials they have never met, without warning, then subjected to intrusive interrogations, medical examinations and sometimes strip searches, wrote Paul Chill, a law professor at the University of Connecticut, in a 2004 article about practices that experts say continue today.

    Some three-quarters of cases nationwide involve not abuse, but neglect, a “really broad umbrella” that “often just looks like poverty,” said Christopher Wildeman, a sociologist at Cornell University who studies the effects of paternal incarceration and foster care. “There’s no consistent evidence that removing kids is, on average, beneficial, and there’s substantial evidence that it does harm,” he said.

    Even a caretaker’s authorized use of medical marijuana use can be grounds for removing children. Martin Guggenheim, a law professor at N.Y.U. and a child welfare advocate, said many of the cases prove unfounded, and child protection agencies disproportionately go after poor black and Latino parents.

    I think they go after people without access to lawyers.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  201. SarahW @68 on 06/22/2018 @ 12:43 pm.

    IOW, I do judge her. ONly the most selfish of beings would not only abandon family and a husband with a good job, but risk the life of her two year old, to enjoy the US welfare state.

    That’s nto what her husband said she wanted to do:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/22/us/immigration-toddler-trump-media.html

    “She was looking for a better quality of life, a better future,” Mr. Varela told The Times on Friday. “She had mentioned to me that she wanted to leave. But she never told me about taking our daughter.”

    The couple has three other children: a son, Wesly, 14, and two daughters, Cindy, 11, and Brianna, 6.

    “She wanted a house and she wanted to have her own business,” said Mr. Varela, who works as a boat captain in Puerto Cortés. “Everyone here wants those things. I always told her to not leave, but everyone makes their own decisions.”

    He also said:

    Mr. Varela said he had been in contact with his partner’s family. If she is able to seek political asylum and stay in the United States, he said, “I will support her. If she gets status, then maybe we can visit and also get a positive status.”

    For now, he said, he is glad to see that the photograph of his daughter had made an impact. “I feel sad because of the image, but at the same time, happy,” he said, adding, “Look at what my daughter has come to mean to immigrants and the topic of immigration worldwide.”

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  202. Reunite and Deport!

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  203. Well he certainly what any goodwill he had; in previous interviews he seemed content to stay in Honduras.

    urbanleftbehind (cdf37a)

  204. “shat”, not what

    urbanleftbehind (cdf37a)

  205. Chris Christie still wants to be AG and he’s happy to trash Sessions to make it happen. How many Trump supporters who hate Trump-,conservative disagreements will condemn Christie for insufficient loyalty?

    DRJ (15874d)

  206. Great City Journal link, Beldar.

    DRJ (15874d)

  207. “She wanted a house and she wanted to have her own business,”

    Case closed. She is a criminal, and a bad mother, who risked her daughter’s life for money. She left her other kids behind. She stole the baby’s right to grow up with her family, or was liking to. SHe will be deported, because she came into the country illegally before, and wanting some money…economic increase, when her husband has a good job (he said so) isn’t a basis for asylum. She should be judged and scorned for the risk she took with that child and the trauma she did cause and harm she thought would result in her enrichment.

    SarahW (3164f0)

  208. She left her other kids behind.

    who else left her kid behind was mama obama

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  209. “Look at what my daughter has come to mean to immigrants and the topic of immigration worldwide.”

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146) — 6/24/2018 @ 1:44 pm

    She is the face of media lies, and the face of the “asylum” fraud. Be proud, Mr. Varela.

    random viking (6a54c2)

  210. That’s one way to keep Scott Pruitt out of the W.H. Mess Hall – just have Christie eat 1 hour ahead.

    urbanleftbehind (cdf37a)

  211. Trump regrets stopping zero tolerance. I agree.

    Trump should learn that listening to his family’s emotional feedback isn’t helping. It is good to be aware of and prepare for emotional responses — his family is Trump’s personal liberal polling center — but that should not replace reason.

    DRJ (15874d)

  212. Like JFK, he’s a pushover when it comes to pretty women.

    DRJ (15874d)

  213. 218. I was quotinmg what her fatehr said. The relevance of that is that, although he wouldn’t have done what she did, he is basically on the same side as her mother.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  214. I think Trump actually wants to lose on this issue. Any time he gets even remotely close to getting his way he asks for more.

    the latest is that he said twice – the second time more explicxitly, that he doesn’t want any more immigration judges. he just wants people caught crossing the borderr illegally to be sent back.

    This has been chaacterized as avoiding due proces, but that’s not true. There would be due process, more than in the Eisenhower Administrations’s Operation Wetback, because they would verify citizenship before doing anything.

    What that would be is abolishing the very concept of political asylum for certain people who reach the United States.

    That violates U.S. law, and a maybe a couple of international treaties, not to mention any kind of humanitarism.

    If Trump wants to argue that the choice is between sending some people back to the deaths and open borders, he’s going about it the right way.

    Where is it ever written that “catch and release” can be avoided?

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  215. 180. The taxpayer Dana (9d97ce) — 6/23/2018 @ 6:00 am

    Only strict enforcement, only cruel enforcement, of our border laws will stem the tide of illegal immigrants.

    You need to have a substantial death rate also, (at least a few percentage points) which, according to some people here, will not at all be the fault of the U.S. government.)

    And even that won’t get it down to zero.

    But, on closer examination, you said “tide.” The tide has already been stemmed. It’s less than 15,000 people a month. * In a nation with a population of some 325 million, that isn’t even a rounding error. It’s like about 0.0005% a year or a little more than 1 in 2,000.

    That’s no tide.

    * It had dropped right after Trimp became president, but it is now back up to 23016 elevels)

    As for saving the government money, imprisoning and feeding people and giving them medical care le is not the way to do it. Not to mention that’s it’s actually causing economic harm. Depriving some people of economic opportunity does not create greater availability of economic opportunity for everyone else; it just shrinks the economy.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  216. 224. * 2016 levels

    https://www.nationalreview.com/news/illegal-immigrant-families-prosecution-suspended-border/

    Of course. He can’t do anything else, as he is not allowed to keep children imprisoned with adults longer than 20 days, and not allowed to separate children from parents. So what he’s doing is not referring cases to DOJ. (Well he could take the order very literally)

    They weren’t prosecuting all cases even before, in spite of their PR.

    Here;s New York Governor Andrew Cuomo’s take on the executive Order, as printed in the New York Daily News on Sunday:

    http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/ny-metro-governor-andrew-cuomo-president-trump-family-detention-zero-tolerance-policy-20180623-story.html

    Governmentally, the Trump administration ‎either incompetently or diabolically created a currently unsolvable riddle. The President’s dual mantra of “tough on the border and not separating families” is presently unobtainable for him.

    If he detains the family, the children must be separated by the dictates of the long-held federal courts’ Flores consent decree, which mandates the length of time and conditions under which children can be held in detention facilities. In short, they may not be held in detention centers with their parents for longer than 20 days. This situation was exploded on April 7 when Attorney General Jeff Sessions went to the “zero tolerance” arrest policy, forcing child separation and an unprepared Department of Health and Human Services to shuffle children all over the country.

    The Flores decree is also why the President’s Executive Order creating “family detention centers” to unite children is a scam. The executive order was not the “reversal” the press heralded. It was a political pirouette. It was not a 180-degree turn, it was a 360-degree turn in which he ended where he started. The President appeared sympathetic but maintained his position.

    The executive order had two little-noticed caveats. It said “to the extent permitted by law,” which it is not. And it said Sessions should renegotiate the Flores decree to allow the executive order to be implemented, which has virtually no chance of success. The federal government has tried to renegotiate Flores before and failed. Even the plan of 20,000 children on Department of Defense bases was a scam because it too violates the Flores decree. In short, none of the President’s proposals are viable.

    Meanwhile more people are arriving at the border every day, making the problem worse.

    So what’s next? The President cannot solve the problem and he knows it. Only Congress can solve it by passing a law that specifically overrides the Flores decree. They will need Democrats to agree, which is highly unlikely (I hope). The law would either need to allow family detention centers akin to the President’s 20,000-capacity DOD camps (which would be a human rights atrocity not seen since the World War II Japanese internment camps), or stop arrivals by building the President’s wall (I’m sure the President’s preferred option). The third option is a supervised family-monitoring program such as those with legal counsels or American family custody programs, which are humane and proven to be effective (probably the Democrats’ preferred option). ..

    Now wait a second. One alternative is building a wall? That’s going to happen overnight?

    And you don’t have to go back to Japanese internment to have high capacity internemnt. That happened in 1975, at Camp Pndleeton with Vietnamese refugeees, or in several places in 1980, like Fort Chafee, Arkansas, with the Mariel boatlift. (in the case of the Vietnamese, the delay was mostly because of needing to find a sponser)

    The supervised family monitoring means release with ankle bracelets. That has about a 95% or 98% aoppearance in court rate. Without it, the rate is either about 74% or 20%, depending upon whom you believe.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  217. I think Trump actually wants to lose on this issue. This has been chaacterized as avoiding due proces, but that’s not true.

    soundcloud downloader (82bd05)


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