Patterico's Pontifications

11/22/2017

Reporter to Trump: Is An Accused Child Molester Better Than A Democrat?

Filed under: General — Dana @ 5:01 pm

[guest post by Dana]

To which President Trump responded:

Well, he denies it. Look, if you look at what is really going on, you look at all the things that have happened over the last 48 hours, he totally denies it. He says it didn’t happen, and you know, you have to listen to him also.

The defense and “re-endorsement” of Roy Moore by the president came during a brief Q&A with reporters after having been relatively quiet about the matter for more than a week.

President Trump listed off his reasons for believing Moore is the better candidate in the race:

“We don’t need a liberal person in there, a Democrat, Jones. I’ve looked at his record. It’s terrible on crime. It’s terrible on the border. It’s terrible on military,” Trump said. “I can tell you for a fact we do not need somebody who’s going to be bad on crime, bad on borders, bad for the military, bad for the Second Amendment.”

Tuesday’s public support of Moore comes on the heels of White House spokesperson Sarah Huckabee Sanders confirming to reporters that the president still believed Moore should step down if the allegations were true:

The president believes that these allegations are very troubling and should be taken seriously, and he thinks that the people of Alabama should make the decision on who their next senator should be.

The president said in his statement earlier this week that if the allegations are true then Roy Moore should step aside. He still firmly believes that.

So what caused Trump to no longer be troubled by the allegations, and not only defend Moore but embrace him as well? Possibly something personal:

President Donald Trump’s near-endorsement of Alabama Republican Roy Moore followed days of behind-the-scenes talks in which he vented about Moore’s accusers and expressed skepticism about their accounts.

During animated conversations with senior Republicans and White House aides, the president said he doubted the stories presented by Moore’s accusers and questioned why they were emerging now, just weeks before the election, according to two White House advisers and two other people familiar with the talks.

The White House advisers said the president drew parallels between Moore’s predicament and the one he faced just over a year ago when, during the final weeks of the 2016 campaign, Trump confronted a long line of women who accused him of harassment. He adamantly denied the claims.

The president’s private sentiments broke into the open Tuesday when Trump all but declared he believed Moore’s denials.

While the report suggests that President Trump viewed the Moore allegations through a personal lens when making his decision to defend the candidate, there is also another factor. And a troubling one at that:

President Donald Trump’s decision to embrace Roy Moore on Tuesday was rooted in several factors, but one of the biggest: the noise and confusion from a recent tidal wave of sexual harassment and misconduct allegations from Hollywood to media to politics.

“(It) made it easier and easier to stick with Moore,” a Republican source close to the White House said.

So, the justification for sticking with Moore was made easier because of the non-stop barrage of sexual misconduct allegations being made? So many allegations, in fact, that there is a desensitization happening as the behavior becomes normalized, thus making it easier to look the other way and cut loose of any principles. Because everybody is doing it.

But there is also this nugget of justification for sticking with Moore:

In the end, the officials said, Trump decided to do something familiar: Accept Moore’s denials — just as he delivered his own denials during the 2016 campaign.

“It’s the general consensus that Moore and his policies are better than a Democrat. This makes it about policy and not the sexual abuse allegations. The White House knows they cannot afford to lose an ‘R’ vote in the Senate,” a White House source familiar with the current thinking told CNN.

Just because they say it, does that make it so? Simply claiming that it’s only politics eliminates any question of morality? I don’t think so. As far as this White House is concerned, however, the moral question has been easily sidelined, and nothing of real value has been sacrificed to get to this point. Because a win in this election is so important, the support of Moore must be justified in any way possible.

So ultimately, in answer to the reporter’s question to President Trump of whether an accused child molester is better than a Democrat, the answer from this White House is a resounding yes.

(Note: I also believe that basic tribalism contributed to the decision to support Moore.)

As of today, the president has not committed to campaigning for Moore. He said he will announce his decision regarding that next week. Also as of today, Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell and House Speaker Paul Ryan, along with more than a dozen Senate Republicans have publicly called on Moore to drop out of the race. The campaign arm for Senate Republicans and the RNC have also cut ties with Moore.

(Cross-posted at The Jury Talks Back.)

–Dana

315 Responses to “Reporter to Trump: Is An Accused Child Molester Better Than A Democrat?”

  1. This was the White House last Sunday:

    “Whatever the facts end up being, the premises, of course, the principle, the incontrovertible principle, is that there is no Senate seat worth more than a child. And we all want to put that forward.”

    Dana (023079)

  2. Roy Moore doesn’t seem to be defending himself on the particulars of any accusation other than the thwarted rape of Beverly Young Nelson. Most of them, even if embarrassing to Roy Moore, are not something that needs strong defending against, except for the attempted seduction of Leigh Corfman at age 14.

    Of course all that, if it took place as described, occurred 40 years ago, and no child is in danger now.

    Nobody was in danger from Dennis Hastert either after about 1976 (except for his going easy on people like himself once he became Speaker of the House)

    Sammy Finkelman (57e37d)

  3. “Accused?”

    DRJ might want to read this, or then again maybe not.

    I just don’t know where you guys are going.

    Mike K (b3dd19)

  4. — Is an accused child molester better than a Democrat?
    — Yes. Next question?

    nk (dbc370)

  5. Anybody can be accused.

    nk (dbc370)

  6. I suppose someone hyperpartisan – the kind of person who refers to the Ku Klux Klan as the military wing of the Democratic Party – could say that the founder of the Democrat Party, Aaron Burr, was guilty of worse behavior with a 14-year old than Roy Moore is accused of.

    You can find it here if you dig deep into this article:

    http://m.startribune.com/when-new-york-city-was-a-battlefield-in-the-revolutionary-war/458093863/?section=variety

    Sammy Finkelman (57e37d)

  7. Dana,

    Are you supporting the Nancy Pelosi leftist in Alabama?

    NJRob (db2255)

  8. nk, how about “credibly” accused??

    Dana (023079)

  9. As in the the allegation made about his behavior toward a minor… (I assumed that it would be clear that this is the case in question because of the “child molester” part…)

    Dana (023079)

  10. The one who put Richard jewell in prison, allowing Eric Rudolph to run rampant for at least a year

    narciso (d1f714)

  11. Because yes, anybody can be accused, but when it involves a minor, and the story is well-sourced, and corroborated by other individuals, then it’s in a different league, in my book, than the other accusations.

    Dana (023079)

  12. Like amirault and faster and I forget the one in. California.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/ThomasWictor/status/933481373913948160?p=v

    narciso (d1f714)

  13. Have we lost the distinction between “allegation” and “evidence?”

    Had this come up in the primary or in any of the elections Moore has been involved in over 25 years, I would be far more interested.

    I just remember the hit job the WaPoo did on George Allen a few years ago. He gave them an opening with his stupid “Macaca” remark, but they ran with it, including supposed college “friends” remembering racist incidents with zero evidence. They elected Jim Webb.

    Larry Sabato, the supposed Republican polysci guy chimed in with another lie. I will never believe him about anything.

    Now, we have a hotly contested primary race with the allegations coming out only after the deadline to substitute another candidate has passed.

    Then the old warhorse Gloria Allred shows up with another of her last minute hit jobs, like the one she used on Beth Whitman a few years ago. The similarity to the attacks on Herman Cain is just too obvious.

    Those attackers vanished once he withdrew.

    The irony is just too delicious with Allred’s daughter defending Weinstein in Hollywood until he becomes too hot to handle.

    Look, Moore would not be my candidate but these hit jobs need to be stopped and the way to do that is to not reward them.

    This is how you got Trump.

    Mike K (b3dd19)

  14. 2017… Year of Virtue Signaling Puffery

    Colonel Haiku (fe83d4)

  15. Wasn’t Ted Cruz accused of infidelity?

    Would you prefer a Democrat to the accused Cruz, Dana?

    BuDuh (fc15db)

  16. All the news that we’re missin’

    Colonel Haiku (fe83d4)

  17. Have we lost the distinction between “allegation” and “evidence?”

    No one is saying he is guilty. The point is, with a very well-sourced story and any number of individuals corroborating it, and the allegation being one of sexual misconduct with a minor, shouldn’t the GOP at least take pause, and seriously consider what it says that it is sticking with this guy? At the very least?

    Further, the dozen Republican Senators have not claimed Moore is guilty either. What they are saying by their statements, is that it would be in the party’s best interest to drop Moore, and that this is not what the GOP is, nor should be about.

    No one has said he is guilty.

    Dana (023079)

  18. I guess what I want to know is, what exactly is the line that can’t be crossed and would cause you to agree with the dozen senators and voters who have decided they cannot support Moore?

    Dana (023079)

  19. How about actual evidence, not a big stage act on the today show, we have seem the gope being totally willing to sacrifice a seat for what looks like highmindedness but pique. That’s how veruca salt kept her seat.

    narciso (d1f714)

  20. Senators and voters decided that Obamacare deserved support.

    Should I blindly agree with them?

    BuDuh (fc15db)

  21. “Further, the dozen Republican Senators have not claimed Moore is guilty either. What they are saying by their statements, is that it would be in the party’s best interest to drop Moore, and that this is not what the GOP is, nor should be about.”

    My $.02… I’ll find them credible when they release all records related to payouts and allegations within their ranks. Time to come clean.

    Colonel Haiku (fe83d4)

  22. That’s Lisa murkowski, who now says she’s in favor of ending the individual mandate,

    narciso (d1f714)

  23. Joe Barton? Come on down!

    “You gonna find out mister, when you meet that Texas twister!”

    Colonel Haiku (fe83d4)

  24. The moment the GOP nominated a man with no morals and not even the pretence of integrity to run against a Democratic nominee who lacked morals and integrity, morality and integrity became irrelevant. So now Alabamans are poised to elect as senator who believes the rule of law and judicial process should be subordinated to personal interpretation of the Bible, and had no problem in publicly and flagrantly breaking his oath of office…

    Until the GOP goes back to being serious about integrity, this will continue. And they won’t go back to being serious about integrity, because that would involve forcing the Man With No Integrity to leave the Presidency.

    kishnevi (c81531)

  25. Et tu Dana??

    How about this — Trump claims he was falsely accused.

    Moore claims he is being falsely accused about events alleged to have happened 40+ years ago.

    Moore has been elected over and over again in the State of Alabama, and these charges have never been raised.

    Why does Trump have a moral obligation to roll over and give in?

    The key to your question is that phrase “ACCUSED Child Molester.”

    That means its not been established either in a court of law or the court of public opinion that he’s a child molester.

    The choice belongs to the citizens of Alabama, not a net-based lynch mob.

    shipwreckedcrew (56b591)

  26. Unless we can find a way to stop this it’s “The End of the World” with every election we don’t agree with, we are toast.

    Colonel Haiku (fe83d4)

  27. It doesn’t matter if they are a novice to politics (o’donnell) or experienced (akin), if their reputation is more libertine (trump) or an old testament prophet type (Moore) the party bigwigs the network which all too willing to selling out to Comcast, previously prince halal howls the whiphand.

    narciso (d1f714)

  28. What Mike K and narciso said. Evidence of guilt, sufficiently credible and of sufficient weight, not automatically believed accusations impossible to disprove because of the passage of time. For me. For the Alabama voters, any dang reason they dang well please when they go into the voting booth.

    Further, the dozen Republican Senators have not claimed Moore is guilty either. What they are saying by their statements, is that it would be in the party’s best interest to drop Moore, and that this is not what the GOP is, nor should be about.

    That’s just plain pitiful in my opinion. Cowardly. Unprincipled. Selfish. But I thought the GOP was just plain pitiful and should be mercifully put to sleep back in July 2016 so ….

    nk (dbc370)

  29. And shipwrecked crew and Haiku who posted their comments while I was typing mine.

    nk (dbc370)

  30. The point is, with a very well-sourced story and any number of individuals corroborating it, and the allegation being one of sexual misconduct with a minor, shouldn’t the GOP at least take pause, and seriously consider what it says that it is sticking with this guy? At the very least?

    I dunno. Would you prefer the GOP keep its skirts clean by surrendering every time the Democrats come up with some dubious claim?

    Do you by any chance remember Ted Stevens ?

    I don’t think the story is at “well sourced.” The girl has a history of misbahavior since childhood. Why was the mother in court ?

    What have the three ex-husbands said about her truthfulness ?

    She says he called her on her bedroom phone that did not exist.

    It turns out that there is substantial reason to doubt the account of Beverly Young Nelson. The evidence she presented — a yearbook allegedly inscribed by Moore — appears to have been doctored.

    Leigh Corfman is the only other person to have accused Moore of anything beyond dating and/or wanting to hang out with girls in their late teens. She did not make her allegations of molestation for 38 years, until just before an election with national implications. She has had a rocky life and does not seem particularly stable.

    That evidence consists of court records. Recall that, in Corfman’s account, Moore first encountered her outside a courtroom in which her mother was to appear at a custody hearing. Her mother asked Moore to wait with her, and he allegedly used the opportunity to get her phone number. After that, Moore allegedly called her multiple times, arranged two meetings, and attempted to arrange a third.

    The alleged phone calls all were made to the mother’s house (Leigh remembered taking them on a phone in her bedroom, but her mother says there was no phone in that room, which is almost surely correct). The alleged encounters all began with Moore picking her up in that neighborhood.

    The Washington Post, which broke the story, says the court hearing occurred in February 1979. Aaron Klein of Breitbart News pinpoints the date — February 21 1979.

    Here’s what the Post did not tell its readers. At the hearing, a judge ordered that Leigh Corfman move out of her mother’s house and take up residence with her father by March 4. In making this decision, the judge noted that Corfman had exhibited “certain disciplinary and behavioral problems.

    I have a slightly higher standard of proof required to believe these political hit jobs.

    Three divorces, three bankruptcies, and IRS liens.

    “Drag a $100 bill…..

    Mike K (b3dd19)

  31. Trump has to say he doesn’t believe the claims because he’s on record saying “You don’t cure a child molester.”

    DRJ (15874d)

  32. Three divorces, three bankruptcies, and IRS liens.

    Trump has had three marriages, dozens of lawsuits and liens, and his companies have had 6 bankruptcies. Does that make him equally unreliable, twice as unreliable, or more unreliable than his accuser?

    DRJ (15874d)

  33. As this, not his, accuser.

    DRJ (15874d)


  34. Reporter to Trump: Is An Accused Child Molester Better Than A Democrat?

    Yes. However a convicted child molester is not better than a Democrat. See how that works? We don’t punish a person before he’s convicted (in theory).

    Rev.Hoagie® (6bbda7)

  35. #32 Is any of that illegal?

    BuDuh (fc15db)

  36. @4.

    — “Mr. President! Is allying with a communist dictator to battle the Axis powers better than accepting fascist expansionism?”

    — “Yes. Next question.”

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  37. I have no problem with doubting the accuser’s story. I don’t know if it is true, although Moore’s past behavior seems strange. My problem is why anyone who doubts her can believe Trump, whose record is also littered with red flags.

    DRJ (15874d)

  38. No more illegal than any of Corfman’s divorces, liens or bankruptcies, BuDuh, but just as probative regarding trustworthiness.

    DRJ (15874d)

  39. Dr K, you believe the claims you want to believe and disbelieve what you want to believe…but Moore publicly and flagrantly broke his oath of office and rejected the concept of the rule of law long before this election. It’s a sign of how low politics has come that Moore could be considered for any office of public trust above the grade of janitor.

    BTW, you don’t seem to realize that Corfman’s behavioral problems make the story more believable. That’s exactly the kind of girl who would think going out with a much older man was a good idea.

    kishnevi (c81531)

  40. Trump thought Ben Carson was as pathological as a child molester, even though he was never convicted of anything. Apparently that’s how it worked for Trump when it came to people who opposed him.

    DRJ (15874d)

  41. Kirsten Gillibrand let the cat (or should it be “pussy”? out of the bag. This is about Trump. To move the bar so that the allegations against him will be enough to demand his removal. That’s why she threw Clinton and Franken under the bus.

    nk (dbc370)

  42. Al Franken is a serial butt grabber, according to two more women who are confirmed liberal supporters.

    We have the clear photo of him and Leann Tweeden from 2006.

    But then we have the much more contemporaneous allegation from the woman who said he grabbed her butt while her husband was taking a picture of the two of them. She happened to tell her husband right then what he did.

    Today there are two more women claiming that Franken grabbed their butt while they were taking a picture with him.

    Franken is fried because he hasn’t yet — and likely fears what might happen if he did — make a categorical denial of the allegations against him. He has not said “I have never grabbed the @ss of a woman I was standing with while our picture was taken.”

    He’s hunkered down, asked for a Senate ethics investigation — which he hopes will buy him time and let the claims pass — but I don’t think its going to work.

    He’s had his picture taken with constituents and supporters thousands of times. Who thinks we’ve heard from the only 3 who had their butts grabbed??

    shipwreckedcrew (56b591)

  43. Leigh Corfman was never important to anything or anyone in her whole miserable waste of a life but now she has a chance to bring down a former Alabama Chief Justice and future Senator, and everything we know about her says that she is exactly the kind of woman who would lie to do it.

    nk (dbc370)


  44. My problem is why anyone who doubts her can believe Trump, whose record is also littered with red flags.

    Seems to me you don’t want to believe Moore, DRJ. Who cares if Trump does? The one in question is Moore unless you’re a relentless Trump hater then of course your decision/opinion will depend upon and be the opposite of Trumps.


    37.I have no problem with doubting the accuser’s story. I don’t know if it is true, although Moore’s past behavior seems strange.


    I agree 100%. I too have no way of knowing if Moore is telling the truth so I’ll let the law sort it out. Meanwhile, Trump will influence my opinion not one tiny bit. As he usually does.

    Rev.Hoagie® (6bbda7)

  45. And you help him coverup , and you can run the new York times:
    https://t.co/prP3ZDi1ga

    narciso (d1f714)

  46. “Trump has had three marriages, dozens of lawsuits and liens, and his companies have had 6 bankruptcies. Does that make him equally unreliable, twice as unreliable, or more unreliable than his accuser?”

    If he was a lawyer, could he still practice law after all of that? I don’t know the answer, just asking…

    Colonel Haiku (fe83d4)

  47. @41. ‘Cept this cat’s got nine lives. Ask Harvey, Charlie… and Billy Bush.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  48. I read the Hanson essay a few days ago, Mike K. I simply cannot understand how what he says Trump has done compared to to what I’ve seen:

    After 10 months of governance, Trump’s deregulations, a foreign policy of principled realism, energy agendas, judicial appointments, efforts at tax reform and health care recalibration, cabinet appointments, and reformulation at the Departments of Education, the EPA, and Interior seem so far conservative to the core.

    With the exception of immigration and judges, which I have repeatedly given Trump credit for and for which I am grateful, the other things have not happened. And as we discussed yesterday, rolling back federal regulations is great but all the GOP candidates would have done that. passing legislation is the path to real change and that has been a bridge too far for Trump.

    On the rest, how has he changed foreign policy? Tax reform? ObamaCare? I don’t see it. Calling him conservative doesn’t make it so.

    DRJ (15874d)

  49. My point about Trump was a response to Mike K, who suggested that we shouldn’t believe Moore’s accuser because of her divorces, liens and bankruptcies. If those are reasons to question her trustworthiness, and they may be, then it is also true for Trump.

    DRJ (15874d)

  50. I’m fairly confident that Dr. Hanson provided example in that piece.

    narciso (d1f714)

  51. Does that make him equally unreliable, twice as unreliable, or more unreliable than his accuser?

    Your mind is obviously made up. Perhaps you, like Bill Kristol, have decided the Administrative State is preferable.

    Business bankruptcies, for an entrepreneur are not the same, as I suspect you know.

    I will not belabor the point further as I detect severe TDS.

    I also suspect the TDS brigade prefers Democrat obstruction to progress, although I don’t know why. Virtue ?

    Mike K (b3dd19)

  52. 37 — Moore’s past behavior seems strange.

    I think I’m going to have to beg to differ.

    Lets focus on 1979. Moore was 32 years old.

    He was born in 1947 in Gadsden, AL. At the age of 7 his family relocated to Houston. The family moved back to Alabama after 4 years, then moved to Pennsylvania, and ultimately back to Alabama where he graduated from high school in 1965. He then went to West Point. He graduated from West Point in 1969 at the age of 22, and entered active duty service in the Army, where most of his career was spent in various postings with MP units. He was discharged from the Arm in 1974 at the age of 27, and enrolled in law school. He graduated in 1977 at the age of 29.

    That is a relatively busy life up to age 30, maybe one that didn’t lend itself to marriage for him.

    But in the late 1970s in Alabama, why would it be inappropriate for a young man looking to settle down to focus his attention on females a decade or so younger?

    This is the deep south in the 1970s. I have NO demographic information in front of me, but I would be willing to bet a sizeable amount of money that the average age for marriage of a woman in Alabama in the 1970s was the late teens or early 20s. Moore’s home town that he returned to after law school had only 35,000 residents. What do you supposed the “pool” of “available” females between the ages of 28 and 32 was in that community? My guess is that it was pretty small.

    Would it be common for a man in his late 20s or early 30s to focus his attentions on girls in their late teens? Probably not.

    But does it qualify as “strange” — hardly.

    shipwreckedcrew (56b591)

  53. Have they sent Richard quest to investigate the matter in alabama (he has record of Tim practices back in the UK) then we have sherrod brown, from aha his mire dodger than a cottonmouth

    narciso (d1f714)

  54. — Doctor, I keep getting these boils on my butt.
    — You have recurrent furunculosis.
    — Oh, my God! What’s that?
    — You keep getting boils on your butt.
    — Doctor, I also don’t like the President.
    — You have TDS.
    — What’s TDS?
    — You don’t like the President.

    nk (dbc370)

  55. Meanwhile how did Laura bloomer cinr to have tmi picturesof Joe Barton?

    narciso (d1f714)

  56. So what caused Trump to no longer be troubled by the allegations, and not only defend Moore but embrace him as well?

    I don’t think the two positions are incompatible. He thinks Moore is better than the Democrat in terms of his politics, so Trump will support Moore until the accusations against him are established. When/If that happens, he thinks Moore should step down.

    Jim S. (ef9740)

  57. Point well taken.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  58. Business bankruptcies, for an entrepreneur are not the same, as I suspect you know.
    Except they are. You can’t pay your bills, and eventually you face a judge in bankruptcy. Unless you’re guilty of fraud, in which case you get to face a judge in criminal court. And Trump was a real estate developer, not an entrepreneur. He talked people into investing their money and then routinely went bust.
    In real estate,where money laundering investors are almost par for the course.

    Hanson’s article is mostly rhetoric that ignores the fact that Trump seems highly incompetent at getting his agenda made a reality.

    kishnevi (c81531)

  59. so Trump will support Moore until the accusations against him are established.

    And like the tribalists here, he will insist to his dying
    day the accusations were never established.

    Sad to see nk join the tribalists….

    kishnevi (c81531)

  60. The key to your question is that phrase “ACCUSED Child Molester.”

    That means its not been established either in a court of law or the court of public opinion that he’s a child molester.

    The choice belongs to the citizens of Alabama, not a net-based lynch mob.

    For Godsake, no one is saying that it’s been established in a court of law. And clearly, the court of public opinion in Alabama will make the ultimate decision on election day. That does not exclude anyone else from formulating their own opinions, including ones that may be contrary from another individual’s. Nor does expressing deep concern, or a preference that the GOP distance themselves from such a questionable candidate who has been accused, and whose alleged victim’s story has been credibly sourced story and corroborating statements equate to an accusation of guilt. Nor does it mean that those of us expressing such views are an “internet lynch mob”. You might as well say that only a selective group is allowed to opine on the matter. And one that agrees with you. No one has accused him of being guilty. No one has claimed that it has been established in a court of law that he is a child molester. And yet one can still have serious reservations about the man, and about a president that continues to support him. How is this not clear?

    Dana (023079)

  61. Sweet Home Alabama Sweet Thang in Alabama

    Big mouths keep on talkin’
    Tellin’ tales ‘bout where I been
    Sellin’ folks out in the south-land
    I miss ol’ ‘bamy once again and I think it’s a sin

    Well I heard McYertle talk about it
    Well I heard ole Mitch put me down
    Well, I hope McYertle will remember
    A southern man don’t need him around anyhow

    Sweet thang in Alabama
    Where the skies are so blue
    Sweet thang in Alabama
    Lord, I’m comin’ on to you

    In Birmingham they got the Gov’nor, boo-hoo-hoo
    They had him by his Curly Root
    Now young poon tang does not bother me
    An’ it wouldn’t bother you, tell the truth

    Sweet thang in Alabama
    Where the skies are so blue
    Sweet thang in Alabama
    Lord, I’m coming on to you, here I come

    Teh House and Senate got the Swampers
    they been known to take a buck or two (yes they do!)
    Lord they piss me off so much
    They’ll get what’s comin’ that much is true

    Sweet thang in Alabama
    Where the skies are so blue
    Sweet thang in Alabama
    Lord, I’m comin’ on to you

    Colonel Haiku (fe83d4)

  62. LOL. So, if the Dems support Teddy “the swimmer kennedy” or Bill “lewinsky” Clinton or Hillary “Bimbo Erruptions” clinton, why Patterico and his pals don’t have a problem.

    But if its a Republican? Why their “Morals” are just can’t take it. ’cause “Conservatives” should be above such mortal stuff.

    LOL. Does any sucker buy that?

    rcocean (a72eb2)

  63. Binary choice!!

    DRJ (15874d)

  64. shipwreckedcrew (56b591) — 11/22/2017 @ 7:01 pm
    Most law students have time for dating and romantic entanglement, no matter how intense their studies. (Been there, done that. If I had a social life and romantic entanglements, anyone can.)

    And Southern towns had plenty of eligible ladies in the 21-25 year old range. No need to dip down into the under the drinking age range unless you really wanted to.

    kishnevi (c81531)

  65. A grown man wanting to date high school cheerleaders and teenagers working at the mall is believable but also strange.

    DRJ (15874d)

  66. My battery lives.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  67. A grown man wanting to date high school cheerleaders and teenagers working at the mall is believable but also strange.
    DRJ (15874d) — 11/22/2017 @ 7:49 pm yes.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  68. And were assuming this, because the notion wee emplanted by the quickly gathered witnesses by the new worker and bezos

    narciso (d1f714)

  69. I’d go with creepy rather than strange.

    Dana (023079)

  70. I won’t argue with you.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  71. As I said, my view of Moore comes from the publicly demonstrated lack of integrity which eventually got him thrown off the bench. That he seems to have been a dirty old man while still wearing a younger man’s clothes is merely one more reason to oppose him, and if it was proved false, I’d still believe him unqualified for any public office.

    kishnevi (c81531)

  72. Harry Truman is supposed to have said of brutal Nicaraguan dictator Somoza: “He’s a bastard, but he’s our bastard.” This quote is attributed to Truman, FDR, and Nixon.

    I feel the same way about Moore. And, of course, Trump.

    Fred Z (05d938)

  73. And before I forget, happy Thanksgiving to all.

    Fred Z (05d938)

  74. My response would be to ask the reporter if he voted for Bill Clinton knowing that several women had accused him of rape.

    And yes that would be partisan. The question was partisan. It was NOT asked in any way in a sense of getting an answer, but rather to embarrass him and create partisan headlines. The only proper response to such tactics is a partisan rebuttal, making the reporter look foolish, hypocritical and partisan in the extreme.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  75. Patterico:

    You seem to invest Trump and Republicans with hyperpartisanship when they respond to questiosn like this, but for some reason you give the reporter a pass even though he was doing this as a thoroughly partisan Gotcha.

    Trump and his partisans are not a cause of division, they are a symptom of something that has existed for too long. Why don’t you write a post about the Democrats in the Senate and their slow walk of EVERY appointment if you want to rail about hyperpartisanship. The Beast’s name is Schumer.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  76. And also about the fact that the press doesn’t say squat about the Senate’s slow walk. Another cesspool of partisanship.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  77. (my mistake. Dana, not Patterico. I guess there might be some daylight between the two. Maybe.)

    Kevin M (752a26)

  78. The choice belongs to the citizens of Alabama, not a net-based lynch mob.

    Particularly in the midst of a moral panic.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  79. My problem is why anyone who doubts her can believe Trump, whose record is also littered with red flags.

    People believe Trump?

    Kevin M (752a26)

  80. Back at the swamp. Cia taken over by military. Who knew? Who cares? Trump tweets are mean and childish and I love the fact you lawyers can’t handle it.lmmfao and happy thanksgiving.

    mg (60b0f7)

  81. I am thankful the pant suit darling and her husband are nowhere near the Whitehouse. I am thankful all have exposed themselves as who they really are.

    mg (60b0f7)

  82. Kevin,

    I think your comment to Dana is unfair, although you of course have every right to feel that way and say it. But having blogged here before, I know that it is harder than it looks. I used to spend hours — literally — everyday reading various information sources, thinking about what I read, drafting/writing posts, verifying what I had written, proofreading what I had written, and attending to the details required by WordPress to publish my posts. And then I would read the comments and often respond.

    I promise you that after days and weeks and months and even years of doing this, the one thing I absolutely insisted on was writing about what I wanted to write. I bet Dana feels the same way, as do most bloggers. But the great thing is that anyone can blog and cover the stories they want to write about.

    DRJ (15874d)

  83. Words don’t bother lawyers, mg. Lawyers see people say and do weird things every day, but what bothers lawyers is the consequences.

    DRJ (15874d)

  84. Kevin,

    I think your comment to Dana is unfair, although you of course have every right to feel that way and say it. But having blogged here before, I know that it is harder than it looks. I used to spend hours — literally — everyday reading various information sources, thinking about what I read, drafting/writing posts, verifying what I had written, proofreading what I had written, and attending to the details required by WordPress to publish my posts. And then I would read the comments and often respond.

    I promise you that after days and weeks and months and even years of doing this, the one thing I absolutely insisted on was writing about what I wanted to write. I bet Dana feels the same way, as do most bloggers. But the great thing is that anyone can blog and cover the stories they want to write about.

    DRJ (15874d) — 11/22/2017 @ 10:36 pm

    How was Kevin being unfair. Dana and Patterico do tend to agree on everything. That’s all Kevin said. Do you disagree?

    Is that somehow an insult?

    NJRob (b00189)

  85. What are the consequence of Trump calling out that moron who uses his kids as pawns in his quest for legitimacy?
    People may see this Ball creature as a pathetic human?

    mg (60b0f7)

  86. Why don’t you write a post about the Democrats in the Senate and their slow walk of EVERY appointment if you want to rail about hyperpartisanship.

    This.

    By the way, I would be interested in reading it if Kevin wants to write it and offer it to Latterick as a guest post. I have no problem with the idea. My problem is the suggestion that they should write on other topics or have different opinions on the topics they write about.

    DRJ (15874d)

  87. Patterico, not Lutterick (who is that, Autocorrect?) And I’m so glad I no longer have to proofread.

    DRJ (15874d)

  88. What are the consequences of having a President who can easily be baited into argument with random people? If someone I knew did this, I would wonder why they have no impulse control, nothing better to do with their time, and whether they have rage issues or low self-esteem that makes them so emotional. I would worry that they would not get their work done or that they would not do a good job because they are so easily distracted, impulsive and emotional.

    DRJ (15874d)

  89. But maybe I have higher standards for my friends and family than Trump and his family have.

    DRJ (15874d)

  90. As one who has been suckered by republicans for over 65 years, and watched how they cowered for decades, it is a pleasure seeing someone in power tell the establishment and all their p.c. media goons to cram it sideways. Finally an A-hole with balls and the willing to engage the A-holes in D.C.

    mg (60b0f7)

  91. It is satisfying to tell people off, but generally it’s not productive.

    DRJ (15874d)

  92. When someone is unleashed with knowledge of how bad things are screwed up and how many people have been getting screwed one has plenty of ammunition to supply a kept down army happy. People have had it with the establishment and their give in tactics. Never been in a fight that was pretty.

    mg (60b0f7)

  93. Please tell me you don’t listen to Hal Turner, mg.

    nk (dbc370)

  94. Never heard of him, nk. Is he focused on nothingness like the republican party?

    mg (60b0f7)

  95. He’s the one that spread the rumor that Marine helicopters were flying over the CIA building.

    nk (dbc370)

  96. I have been lmao over that one, nk.

    mg (60b0f7)

  97. Does Hal speak Russian?

    mg (60b0f7)

  98. Conservatives of the libertarian persuasion along with neo-cons. movement conservative intellectuals and establishment republicans lost the last election when trump and cruz showed that evangelical christians and populists now are the ruling majority in the republican party. they were called white trash democrats before they moved to the republican party. the so called reagan democrats and their views are populist not libertarian conservative. the donors can no longer buy the nomination for a bush or a romney. step to the back of the bus populists are driving it now!

    neo republicans (ba7279)

  99. So, is Brian Banks, accused rapist, better than a democrat? You’d think that, for a republican, attempts to defend himself are immoral.
    So, let’s presume after the election, this turns out to have been a baseless hit job.
    What’s the response?
    Like Harry Reid after Romney lost, referring to the lie about taxes. “He didn’t win, did he?”
    At least, Reid had the grace not to giggle.

    Richard Aubrey (415087)

  100. The GOP is also racist for daring to field a candidate to oppose our historic first black preezy. And misogynist, for the same reason. Just ask Hillary!

    So, why not child molesters?

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  101. http://acecomments.mu.nu/?post=372645

    Dear White People:

    Make sure you fight with your family, on Thanksgiving, to appease BLM.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  102. http://neoneocon.com/2017/11/22/how-about-looking-at-some-backup-evidence-in-the-moore-allegations/

    Since the allegations against Roy Moore came out, I’ve been patiently waiting (without much expectation) for some more detailed discussions of the evidence against him.

    Waiting for employees of the Old Hickory House at the time to come forward. Waiting for photographs of the place. Waiting for a timeline of the allegations related to Moore’s movements and the accusers’ movements, and whether they dovetail with the timeline of the accusations. And so on and so forth.

    Nothing on the subject seem to be forthcoming from the computers of the esteemed journalists who broke the stories. Nothing from Gloria Allred…

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  103. It starts with stealing an election which leeds to stealing a feel from a womens bottom ending up in retirement.
    good-bye stu.

    mg (60b0f7)

  104. About time team republican join forces with the democrats and promote the dead ozone layer that was supposed to kill us years ago.

    mg (60b0f7)

  105. Why is Lois Lerner not in jail?
    Is it because team republican is in on it?

    mg (60b0f7)

  106. I want to be led by leaders that lie, cheat,steal and are sexual perverts. I ought to be a democrat.

    mg (60b0f7)

  107. (my mistake. Dana, not Patterico. I guess there might be some daylight between the two. Maybe.)

    Kevin M (752a26) — 11/22/2017 @ 9:07 pm

    and

    … Dana and Patterico do tend to agree on everything. That’s all Kevin said. Do you disagree?

    NJRob (b00189) — 11/22/2017 @ 10:46 pm

    I disagree, NJRob. I don’t agree with Patterico on everything. (But, so what if we did?) Perhaps you missed it, but just three days ago, I wrote a post about Lavar Ball and President Trump’s tiff. In the post, I made a point to clearly state:

    Additionally, it has been suggested that President Trump picking a fight with Lavar Ball had racist overtures:

    “The black man was not appreciative of what the white man did for him and it’s a dog whistle to say the least.”

    This doesn’t seem like the President Trump we’ve come to know on Twitter. Instead, as we’ve seen throughout his presidential run and time in office, the President is an equal-opportunity, thin-skinned reactionary when feeling publicly challenged, dismissed or criticized. Every race, gender and religion is a potential target for him, no holds barred. However, these specific comments may have also been red meat for those in his base who are indeed racist.

    However, in the comments, Patterico wrote:

    Additionally, it has been suggested that President Trump picking a fight with Lavar Ball had racist overtures.

    His initial tweet quoted in the post was done because the ball players were black.

    Patterico (1d97e4) — 11/20/2017 @ 7:57 pm

    Quite obviously, we are not in agreement. While we do tend to see eye to eye, there have been a number of issues over the years that we don’t agree upon. A huge difference that pertains to this new administration, is that while our host has, on any number of occasions, expressed a hatred for President Trump, I don’t feel that same way toward the president. While it’s true that President Trump frustrates me greatly for wasting precious time focusing his attention on trivial matters that don’t deserve the attention of the POTUS, and I find his utter lack of self-restraint and various character issues troubling, I don’t hate him, nor do I bear hatred in my heart for him. I realize that for a lot of commenters, criticism of Trump = hate in their book, but not in mine. If people’s own biases, preferences, defensiveness or whatever factor when making a determination that criticism of Trump = hate, I can’t help it. But it is not true as far as I am concerned.

    Dana (023079)

  108. Fun is typing in the name Al Franken sexual molester.

    mg (60b0f7)


  109. 110.Fun is typing in the name Al Franken sexual molester.

    That’s because you missed the (D) after Franken.

    Rev.Hoagie® (6bbda7)


  110. I realize that for a lot of commenters, criticism of Trump = hate in their book, but not in mine.

    Do you really believe that, Dana? I think the constant 24/7/365 cluster@#$k for a straight year joining with our enemies foreign and domestic to bust on Trump every time he farts = hate in my book.

    Rev.Hoagie® (6bbda7)

  111. good point, Rev.
    H. TG.

    mg (60b0f7)

  112. I think the constant 24/7/365 cluster@#$k for a straight year joining with our enemies foreign and domestic to bust on Trump every time he farts = hate in my book.

    I do, too. Also, the unwilllingness to see anything good in what he has done shows me a real blindness that is probably secondary to hate of a sort that comes from an inflated class consciousness.

    Jonathan Haidt has written about it.

    Haidt seems to delight in mischief. Drawing on ethnography, evolutionary theory and experimental psychology, he sets out to trash the modern faith in reason. In Haidt’s retelling, all the fools, foils and villains of intellectual history are recast as heroes. David Hume, the Scottish philosopher who notoriously said reason was fit only to be “the slave of the passions,” was largely correct. E. O. Wilson, the ecologist who was branded a fascist for stressing the biological origins of human behavior, has been vindicated by the study of moral emotions. Even Glaucon, the cynic in Plato’s “Republic” who told Socrates that people would behave ethically only if they thought they were being watched, was “the guy who got it right.”

    It’s interesting to see Haidt’s theories apply to the “right” as well as the left.

    The Trump haters seem to show another of Haidt’s theories about politics. He writes that “Disgust” is a characteristic of the conservative.

    Here is his explanation of Disgust and Trump hate.

    Many American voters, Haidt wrote,

    perceive that the moral order is falling apart, the country is losing its coherence and cohesiveness, diversity is rising, and our leadership seems to be suspect or not up to the needs of the hour. It’s as though a button is pushed on their forehead that says “in case of moral threat, lock down the borders, kick out those who are different, and punish those who are morally deviant.”

    Haidt, a professor at N.Y.U.’s Stern School of Business, argues that Trump

    is not a conservative, and is not appealing to classical conservative ideas. He is an authoritarian, who is profiting from the chaos in Washington, Syria, Paris, San Bernardino, and even the chaos on campuses, which are creating a more authoritarian electorate in the Republican primaries.

    In other words, the segment of the electorate drawn to Trump is especially receptive to mobilization at times of perceived disorder — of a belief in looming external threats, from the Islamic State to Syrian refugees to illegal immigration from Latin America.

    Noting that conservatives are preoccupied with notions of purity and disgust, Haidt also offers an explanation of some of the more remarkable oddities of Trump’s political approach in an online posting:

    If morality is about how we treat each other, then why did so many ancient texts devote so much space to rules about menstruation, who can eat what, and who can have sex with whom? There is no rational or health-related way to explain these laws. The emotion of disgust seemed to me like a more promising explanatory principle. The book of Leviticus makes a lot more sense when you think of ancient lawgivers first sorting everything into two categories: “disgusts me” (gay male sex, menstruation, pigs, swarming insects) and “disgusts me less” (gay female sex, urination, cows, grasshoppers).

    I took his Disgust test but came out 77% Democrat which is pretty much the opposite of th truth but I don;t think the test works for physicians, especially surgeons who deal with disgusting matters all the time.

    Anyway, that is my theory for why Patrick and DRJ and Dana are Trump haters,

    Happy Thanksgiving. Stay off the 405 if you are in LA. I’m in Tucson.

    Mike K (b3dd19)

  113. So human beings have an aesthetic sense. Who would have thought it?

    nk (dbc370)

  114. I don’t hate Trump. I want him to use his Presidency to accomplish the many, many things that need to be done and that he isn’t doing and doesn’t seem to understand. I believe the only way he will do these things is if Americans, especially people like me who voted for him, tell him what we want and hold him accountable.

    If I hated Trump, if I really thought he was incapable of accomplishing anything, then I wouldn’t bother talking about him. I would take my son to play golf, work in the yard, and research medical issues that interest me. But I haven’t given up on him and the internet lets everyone have the chance to make a difference.

    DRJ (15874d)

  115. I wrote my last comment before I saw Mike K’s comment. Happy Thanksgiving to you, too. I hope you can find some measure of happiness and peace in your heart.

    DRJ (15874d)

  116. Yeah, whatever… http://discoverthenetworks.org/

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  117. Hoagie,

    Sadly, I do believe that to be true with a number of people. Just count how many times a criticism of the president is met with an disdainful accusation of TDS.

    Consider Mike K’s comment just moments ago:

    Also, the unwilllingness to see anything good in what he has done shows me a real blindness that is probably secondary to hate of a sort that comes from an inflated class consciousness.

    Dana (023079)

  118. That is an interesting link, Mike K. You focus on the appeal of/to disgust, which seems to matter to Trump more than his supporters. But the authoritarian aspects of Trump’s appeal strikes me as spot on. What did you think about that?

    DRJ (15874d)

  119. Binary choice !!

    DRJ (15874d)

  120. A simple life is a happy life, right, Haiku?

    DRJ (15874d)

  121. Only you don’t seem that happy. I hope you have a Happy Thanksgiving.

    DRJ (15874d)

  122. How many of you upset Moore is condemned without a trial were chanting Lock her up! very recently?

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  123. Republican Rep. Scott Taylor of Virginia on Wednesday said he didn’t “feel comfortable” with Roy Moore’s response to allegations of sexual misconduct against him.
    “The 14-year-old girl that was there, I can tell you right now if it was my daughter, I’d break his face, I’d break his fingers, and I’d probably do a lot worse,” Taylor said.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  124. The democrat party looks like a blind cornerback in the Canadian Football League. Ben burnee bro, worry about your own perverts as you have uncountable numbers of sexual predators lurking in everyones business.

    mg (60b0f7)

  125. Haidt is a mildly left liberal, if there is still such a thing. He sees Conservatives and Republicans as a different tribe and looks at us as an anthropologist might. What is different is that he recognizes his own bias. His web site is one of my bookmarks.

    You focus on the appeal of/to disgust, which seems to matter to Trump more than his supporters.
    No, Haidt thinks Disgust explains conservatives and I think it probably applies to you and the other Trump haters.

    DRJ damns him with faint praise but it is still hate.

    and that he isn’t doing and doesn’t seem to understand.

    That is a way of saying “Trump is too stupid but I understand”. That is class based, It is interesting because Trump is a billionaire but he is still considered déclassé by people who hate him on both sides.

    Also just count how many times a criticism of the president is met with an disdainful accusation of TDS.

    It’s not “disdainful.” It is just an observation. There is a whole group on the right politically, and I don’t include Bill Kristol who seems to have gone off the cliff, who are disgusted with Trump because of his classless behavior, as they see it.
    I kind of agree. He is crude as only a wrong side of town billionaire could be.

    He is Rodney Dangerfield in “Caddy Shack.”

    What is important is that he has caught the tone of the middle class and many who used to be middle class. Why he wants to do this is kind of a mystery to me but I think he is the only Republican who could have defeated Hillary a year ago.

    She was so confident because she should have won. The culture in the US has been pretty much destroyed.

    The Administrative State rules and has its own interests, not ours, as its goals.

    Politics is corrupt, possibly irreversibly. The politicians are dependent on donors and donors have done very well in the Obama economy. The ZIRP has goosed the stock market to probably fatal altitude. It feels like 1929 to me.

    Can Trump fix it ? I don’t know but Cruz could not have. He also relies on donors.

    I attended a Steve Bannon lecture the other night. He is the guy who knows what needs to be done but I don’t know if it can be done. There was a lot of security at the Bannon lecture and he is in danger,. Some left wing woman accosted him in an elevator in New York this week.

    I just hope Trump still has his own security people around him. I don’t trust the Secret Service, aside from their incompetence.

    Mike K (b3dd19)

  126. Also, the unwilllingness to see anything good in what he has done shows me a real blindness that is probably secondary to hate of a sort that comes from an inflated class consciousness.

    And what’s wrong with that? You don’t need to be an elite to be an elitist. You can be the lowest the of the low and still want the best of the best for the leader of your country.

    But, like DRJ, I don’t hate Trump — not anymore than I hate 1973 Ford Pintos. I’m sad that we have a President that only inspires a feeling of relief that he hasn’t f***ed up too catastrophically yet.

    nk (dbc370)

  127. Mg. You are one of the many Chief Morons who torment rational conservatives like Patterico. Why do you hate him?

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  128. I don’t hate Trump. I just want to smash a cream pie in his face.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  129. I believe you Trumpets are Neo Trolls @ patterico.com

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  130. Even NRO sees it.

    Republicans are going to face tough midterm elections in 2018, whether they pass tax reform on not. But they probably will be able to point to some improvements in the quality of life of Americans even without passing big bills: a more secure border and dramatic drops in illegal immigration, the elimination of the Islamic State as a state, an unemployment rate around four and a half percent, a stock market that has increased 28 percent since Election Day 2016, and a more accountable and better-performing Department of Veterans Affairs. (Right now, more than 30 percent of VA appointments are made in the private sector, and one of the long-term ideas on the table is merging the VA programs with TRICARE, the Pentagon’s insurance plan that allows active-duty military personnel to use private health-care providers.)

    I hope you have as pleasant a Thanksgiving as I will.

    Mike K (b3dd19)

  131. The 73 Pinot was deliberately defective, Nk,I figure by the midterms they will be accusing some rep or senator of covering up a death. Ala condit or more suggestively scarborough, that medical examiner wee at best substandard.

    narciso (d1f714)

  132. So Haidt says conservatives have a higher sense of beauty and ugliness than liberals? I can go along with that. To the ancient Greeks, “good” and “beautiful” were the same word —kallos.

    nk (dbc370)

  133. Raising $2b on the backs of teachers?

    The Party of Grinch ruin Thanksgiving and Christmas because they can.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/11/22/house-republicans-have-a-little-known-plan-to-raise-taxes-on-teachers-by-2-billion/

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  134. The Republican Party is as dead as the 20 pounder in my oven.

    And their almost DONE

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  135. Ben burnee bro –
    I am not a republican. Everyone knows I want both parties to die.
    I would never vote for Moore. For a number of reasons. Seeing the establishment republicans fight for democrats is entertaining as well as suicidal for the party of stupid. Both parties ripping ones party apart is overdue.
    See a doctor about that bedwetting issue.

    mg (60b0f7)

  136. I am not a republican. Everyone knows I want both parties to die.

    Your self expression could improve. What’s the ratio? I’ve never seen the other side of your Midnight.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  137. I was never a chief, only a warrior in my tribe.
    I do not hate Patterico and I’m sure he knows that.

    mg (60b0f7)

  138. You must be new here

    mg (60b0f7)

  139. Well you’d think after 6 months of scribbling I could see some erosion. Take nk, for example. He just doesn’t like Trump. Everything else R is a- ok.

    You have not distinguished yourself.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  140. “who torment rational conservatives like Patterico.

    I would consider this foolish hyperbole but considering PP’s recent posts ‘tormented’ just might ‘splain it.

    How many of you upset Moore is condemned without a trial were chanting Lock her up! very recently?”

    You mean all those folks who let the election decide things?

    harkin (a9a478)

  141. Admit it. Just a lovers spat made you angry at you Party. You’ll be back.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  142. Yes. All 37 percent of you.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  143. Super-majority oppose the Orange Julius.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  144. But wait, I’ve got more. I don’t want Trump to fail. Not anymore than I would want my 1973 Ford Pinto to break down. Which is why I defend him, and will continue to defend him, from any attacks from the Left and unfair attacks from any quarter. And I pray for him in church on Sundays.

    nk (dbc370)

  145. Many moons will pass before the democrats come close to power again. The war on women you perverts have has been exposed.

    mg (60b0f7)

  146. Seewhutimean?

    You are time-stamped and sealed a Republican loyalist because the pervs are on one side only..lol.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  147. “… I’ve never seen the other side of your Midnight.”

    I would think it impossible, given your impacted cranium situation.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  148. To be fair though your myopia is a true disability and those coke- bottle eyeglasses are a problem too.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  149. See? Haiku is died-in-the-wool coming to mgs assistance (as he is able, lol)

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  150. Patterico doesn’t deserve this audience.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  151. mg needs no assistance. It’s that “kick me here” sign taped to your back, with the arrow pointing in a southerly direction, beenburned.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  152. You rumpublicans stick together.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  153. 100 days in to the Trump presidency and the Democrat Sexual Predators in the news leads republicans 100-1

    mg (60b0f7)

  154. I see that a new leftist troll has nothing else to do this morning.

    I actually agree that the Republican Party is in deep trouble.

    The Democrats are going to merge with the Democratic Socialists but the GOP has a serious problem with the populist wing that has no time for donors and their issues.

    The Whigs collapsed over slavery. The Republicans may collapse over corruption with donors and bureaucracies driving policy.

    Mike K (b3dd19)

  155. Just wait until Evangelicals pop their cherry.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  156. Sexual repression is a time bomb for sexy time.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  157. “He denies it.” Well, that’s it then. All over.

    Nine women and a slew of other people corroborating their testimony and his behavior. Then, on top of that, there are the judicial abuses causing him to be removed twice from the bench. He thinks he IS the US Supreme Court.

    But, nothing to see here. “He denies it.” That’s all we need to know.

    noel (b4d580)

  158. Its sad isn’t it, what’s the weather like in Tucson now?

    narciso (d1f714)

  159. what’s the weather like in Tucson now?

    Cool this morning but supposed to be 92 this afternoon. Hottest on record the paper says.

    This week has been gorgeous. Nice weather for walking the dog.

    Mike K (b3dd19)

  160. Wait. Wait.

    He “totally denies” the allegations. What more do we need?

    noel (b4d580)

  161. What more do we need?

    More Trumpytweets.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  162. Some of you can see the abuses of Ted Kennedy or Bill Clinton but for some reason…. Roy Moore…. he just doesn’t stir your passions.

    I didn’t appreciate any of those guys. In fact, I believed all of the accusations. Don’t blame me.

    So, tell us, why is Roy Moore’s behavior excused?

    noel (b4d580)

  163. So, tell us, why is Roy Moore’s behavior excused?

    What behavior? Trump just this morning healed our wounds with “I love you” making it all better.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  164. Dana @17. “Further, the dozen Republican Senators have not claimed Moore is guilty either. What they are saying by their statements, is that it would be in the party’s best interest to drop Moore, and that this is not what the GOP is, nor should be about.”

    But they can’t drop Moore – it’s too late. Alabama is not New Jersey. To speak of dropping Moore at this stage is total nonsense. Only Democrats would talk about it. A write-in campaign is also a non-starter.

    The choices for Republican Senators would seem to be:

    1. Endorse Doug Jones.

    2. Endorse voting for neither, which amounts to favoring Jones in a left-handed way (in this context which is directed at people who wold otherwise vote for the Republican.)

    3. Endorse Moore, but only if Mitch McConnell indicates he will probably be expelled from the Senate

    4. Endorse Moore, without any promise by McConnell except for an investigation, but on the premise he will probably eventually either be expelled from the Senate or cleared of whatever you consider to be disqualifying charges, and state what long ago behavior you consider disqualifying.

    5. Endorse Moore if he promises to resign if elected.

    6. Endorse Moore, given the circumstances.

    Sammy Finkelman (57e37d)

  165. but for some reason…. Roy Moore…. he just doesn’t stir your passions.

    Mary Jo is dead. Clinton was disbarred for perjury.

    The Moore evidence?

    Forgery on a yearbook that Allred will not allow to be examined.

    The uncorroborated story of a woman who appeared as part of a WaPoo hit piece that was timed to ensure the Democrat won the election.

    Not everybody is as eager to buy the hit job as you are.

    I wonder why ?

    It turns out that there is substantial reason to doubt the account of Beverly Young Nelson. The evidence she presented — a yearbook allegedly inscribed by Moore — appears to have been doctored.

    Leigh Corfman is the only other person to have accused Moore of anything beyond dating and/or wanting to hang out with girls in their late teens. She did not make her allegations of molestation for 38 years, until just before an election with national implications. She has had a rocky life and does not seem particularly stable.

    Ivanka Trump feels this is “no reason” to doubt Corfman’s account. Maybe not. But now, there is documentary evidence that may provide such reason.

    That evidence consists of court records. Recall that, in Corfman’s account, Moore first encountered her outside a courtroom in which her mother was to appear at a custody hearing. Her mother asked Moore to wait with her, and he allegedly used the opportunity to get her phone number. After that, Moore allegedly called her multiple times, arranged two meetings, and attempted to arrange a third.

    The alleged phone calls all were made to the mother’s house (Leigh remembered taking them on a phone in her bedroom, but her mother says there was no phone in that room, which is almost surely correct). The alleged encounters all began with Moore picking her up in that neighborhood.

    The Washington Post, which broke the story, says the court hearing occurred in February 1979. Aaron Klein of Breitbart News pinpoints the date — February 21 1979.

    Here’s what the Post did not tell its readers. At the hearing, a judge ordered that Leigh Corfman move out of her mother’s house and take up residence with her father by March 4. In making this decision, the judge noted that Corfman had exhibited “certain disciplinary and behavioral problems.”

    A few reasons.

    Mike K (b3dd19)

  166. Just a few of many…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  167. Perversion is a Democratic monopoly…BWAAAAAA….HAAAAAA!!!

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  168. Republicans have the morality monopoly and the super-righteous high ground..

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  169. You see…they attend Church

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  170. 11. Dana (023079) — 11/22/2017 @ 5:27 pm

    anybody can be accused, but when it involves a minor, and the story is well-sourced, and corroborated by other individuals, then it’s in a different league, in my book, than the other accusations.

    First of all, the worst accusations are not corroborated by someone else saying the same thing happened to them. It can fairly be established that Roy Moore was interested in teenage girls – he almost said it himself. These are thing we may consider wrong but they never were illegal.

    We don’t know if anyone attempted to tell a story but were found not credible, and if in that case there was a similar origin.

    Both the thwarted rape of Beverly Young Nelson and the attempted or incomplete seduction of Leigh Corfman are outliers.

    The thwarted rape of Beverly Young Nelson has lots of problems. The only thing that looks credible are her emotions. Many elements of what she said are illogical, improbable, or outright disputed.

    It’s better for Leigh Corfman (the 14-year old) Nothing has come up (but it could) to dispute her basic story, although the question of her telephone looks wrong. It needs fleshing out. (She says she had been reading Harlequin romances “for years” at age 14, but that’s a plausible thing.)

    But what doesn’t look right is the claim that this is not politically motivated. She stresses that she didn’t contact the Washington Post but the Washington Post contacted her, an had to beg her to go public, but this raises the question of who outed her, and if she minds. She said she gave an answer that she would go public if they fund other women, and, lo and behold, the Washington Post did! Now how? And this business of everybody saying they are Republicans? What’s that? They could be asked if they were for or against Roy Moore before. Now, logically, they have to say yes.

    Sammy Finkelman (57e37d)

  171. And we are all sinners, what is the objective evidence on the subject

    narciso (d1f714)

  172. There is now a bit more coming out that McConnell may have had in this affair.

    He had to know what rumors the Strange campaign had heard but could not find evidence for.

    Mike K (b3dd19)

  173. I think its a fair response,
    https://mobile.twitter.com/wpjenna/status/933412651136356352

    Its an example of paralepsis

    narciso (d1f714)

  174. I had been driving for hours to visit my ailing 89-year-old mom and didn’t realize how fast I was driving. I believe in the rule of law and I will pay the consequences,” Trump’s favorite judge said in a statement.

    At a hundred and nineteen mph you should have been thrown in the slammer, entitled bitch!

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  175. Believe the Moore lawyers and their distractions all you want, guys. I will believe Roy himself. “Not generally, no”.

    Do you need an interpreter for that answer?

    noel (b4d580)

  176. Off to Turkey overdose!

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  177. 183. noel (b4d580) — 11/23/2017 @ 10:20 am

    Believe the Moore lawyers and their distractions all you want, guys. I will believe Roy himself. “Not generally, no”.

    But that’s true. That being true, doesn’t make ALL the accusations true. It’s not like ALL the women are telling the truth or ALL the women are lying.

    I think whoever did this investigation of Roy Moore – and it wasn’t the Washington Post – the Washington Post was sold on the story, and first they were given the story about his charity – thought that what they had turned up wasn’t enough to eliminate Roy Moore, so they invented some new charges. Could even be a few of the close to innocuous ones.

    What I want to know is if the Washington Post was presented with any accuser whom they deemed not credible.

    Sammy Finkelman (57e37d)

  178. Roy Moore’s actions on the court are no worse than the Ninth Circuit’s, so who cares?
    At this point it’s the duty of lower courts to smack crap from the Supremes back in their face and make them spend time smacking it back.

    Ingot9455 (7ba6f5)

  179. Mike K (b3dd19) — 11/23/2017 @ 9:24 am

    a judge ordered that Leigh Corfman move out of her mother’s house and take up residence with her father by March 4. In making this decision, the judge noted that Corfman had exhibited “certain disciplinary and behavioral problems.”

    I think that, if the story is true, she is the one who suggested they go to his home!

    That would explain why this was all different than the others. Why they went to his home rather than somewhere public.

    But she expected something more like a candlelit dinner. Not undressing and a blanket. Roy Moore misunderstood what she wanted. She wanted a choice other than her mother and her father. And nothing physical.

    Sammy Finkelman (57e37d)

  180. 13. Mike K (b3dd19) — 11/22/2017 @ 5:41 pm

    Larry Sabato, the supposed Republican polysci guy chimed in with another lie.

    What was that lie? I don’t trust him anyway, I don’t remember the exact cause.

    Moore would not be my candidate but these hit jobs need to be stopped and the way to do that is to not reward them.

    That is a very important point.

    Otherwise, we’re setting ourselves up for politicians to be blackmailed in exchange for votes or something. There are certain things someone could have one wrong that it is worth it fulfilling what the blackmailer wants, but the carefully times revelations of things that happened 40 years ago that haven’t been repeated? We have to limit the subject matter of blackmail,

    Sammy Finkelman (57e37d)

  181. He suddently ‘remembered’ some slurs George Allen had eeputedcly made on the eve of the election.

    narciso (d1f714)

  182. DRJ damns him with faint praise but it is still hate.

    I don’t hate Trump. I don’t trust him because he lies and because he abandons his unsecured creditors when it helps his finances, but I certainly don’t hate him. He hasn’t hurt me and he doesn’t even make me angry, let alone mad enough to hate. But calling me a hater seems important to you, probably because it lets you ignore everything I say about Trump.

    Ignore me, Mike K. It is no big deal. But I hope you can deal with why you are so angry about this, because all anger comes from fear and you need to address that.

    DRJ (0280d9)

  183. And if my praise is faint, at least there is some praise!

    DRJ (0280d9)

  184. But she expected something more like a candlelit dinner. Not undressing and a blanket. Roy Moore misunderstood what she wanted. She wanted a choice other than her mother and her father. And nothing physical.

    But, you have to believe her that what she says happened, happened.

    There was a high school teacher on Orange County a few years ago who was accused by three 9th grade girls of molesting them. He was ruined but, at his trial. he was acquitted. I forget what the reason was but after the trial, the three girls said that they accused him to punish him for scolding them because they did not want to dress for Gym.

    She was an incorrigible 14 year old. How many judges award custody of a 14 year old girl to the father ?

    Did she ever tell her father ? Did she ever tell any of her ex-husbands.? They have been awfully silent on this.

    Nelson had a motive to punish him for ruling against her in her divorce. She wanted to contest the no-fault divorce and he ruled that she could not.

    Does Corfman have a motive ? Is any money involved ?

    Mike K (b3dd19)

  185. Happy Thanksgiving to everyone here.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  186. LOL. So, if the Dems support Teddy “the swimmer kennedy” or Bill “lewinsky” Clinton or Hillary “Bimbo Erruptions” clinton, why Patterico and his pals don’t have a problem.

    I realize this comment was left by a drive-by troll who will never see my response, but since nobody else has refuted it let me just point out that this assertion is 100% made up and has no basis in fact. I have numerous posts on this blog criticizing Dems for exactly that.

    This comment is further evidence of how the partisan mindset poisons people. This commenter can’t imagine that someone could actually object to rampant partisanship on both sides of the aisle. So if I criticize it on one side, the troll assumes that I excuse it on the other — because that is what he does in reverse.

    Patterico (517e82)

  187. probably because it lets you ignore everything I say about Trump.

    What you say is what tells me you hate him. I’m not “angry” and those who go on and on about how terrible Trump is sound a lot more like anger.

    I hope you have as nice a day as I am having.

    Mike K (b3dd19)

  188. Patrick, I strongly recommend you spend some time watching this video.

    Peterson is under serious attack in Canada and Haidt is a liberal Democrat who recognizes the dangers of bias.

    It is a marvelous conversation.

    Mike K (b3dd19)

  189. Also just count how many times a criticism of the president is met with an disdainful accusation of TDS.

    It’s not “disdainful.” It is just an observation.

    I choose to believe your claim that it is not disdainful because I can’t see your heart. But, if you were on the receiving end, you might see it differently. With that, any of us could scroll through the comments section on most Trump posts and see your reflexive judgement and dismissal of commenters who do criticize the president. While you claim it is not done with disdain, your observation certainly is a dismissive judgment made by you toward the criticizer. And these are not simply critiques about his boorishness or bombast, but also include his decision making strategies, his lacks of character, ethics, and principles, the issues he focuses on while at the same time ignoring vital ones, etc., as well as decisions he’s making that impact us all.

    Dana (023079)

  190. Larry Sabato, the supposed Republican polysci guy chimed in with another lie.
    What was that lie? I don’t trust him anyway, I don’t remember the exact cause.

    He and some other guys who said they were friends of Allen’s in college described him committing racist acts like smashing black people’s mailboxes from a car.

    As far as I know there was never any evidence of what would be a federal crime.

    Mike K (b3dd19)

  191. DRJ (and Dana, indirectly):

    Back in #77 I made two points, and DRJ had issues with the second one as being an off-topic issue. But he evaded the first one that was entirely ON topic, and reflected my dissatisfaction with the one-sided blame that this blog has taken, suggesting that Trump is the cause of the present unpleasantness.

    So I repeat:

    You seem to invest Trump and Republicans with hyperpartisanship when they respond to questions like this, but for some reason you give the reporter a pass even though he was doing this as a thoroughly partisan Gotcha.

    Why do you treat the reporter’s question as a perfectly innocent one, when the mainstream press (e.g. the WaPo) has declared Trump to be Public Enemy Number 1, and makes no bones about their animosity.

    The hyperpartisanship may be a feature of our time, but it has existed for the last couple of decades. Stop blaming Trump and his supporters for a reaction to a preexisting condition.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  192. Here is a thought experiment. It is 2020. President Trump has decided not to seek a second term in office and retire to Mar-A-Lago. The Republicans nominate Senator Moore as their candidate for President. At the same time, the Democrats have nominated socialist Bernie Sanders as theirs. So the race is Sanders v. Moore. IOW, the Scum-bag child molestor vs. the empty-headed socialist who would bring this country down to the level of Venezuela.

    Whom do you vote for?

    Bored Lawyer (fe5e63)

  193. Back in #77 I made two points, and DRJ had issues with the second one as being an off-topic issue. But he evaded the first one that was entirely ON topic, and reflected my dissatisfaction with the one-sided blame that this blog has taken, suggesting that Trump is the cause of the present unpleasantness.

    She, not he.

    Hyperpartisan Trump/Moore supporters, not Trump.

    You have to understand the argument before you can properly engage it.

    Patterico (517e82)

  194. these are not simply critiques about his boorishness or bombast,

    I have also criticized the same things and on this blog today.

    Come on ! Significantly, you edited my comment to remove this.

    It is just an observation. There is a whole group on the right politically, and I don’t include Bill Kristol who seems to have gone off the cliff, who are disgusted with Trump because of his classless behavior, as they see it.
    I kind of agree. He is crude as only a wrong side of town billionaire could be.

    He is Rodney Dangerfield in “Caddy Shack.”

    What is important is that he has caught the tone of the middle class and many who used to be middle class. Why he wants to do this is kind of a mystery to me but I think he is the only Republican who could have defeated Hillary a year ago.

    I have no interest in converting anyone on this blog and I have mostly stayed away since the election as I think there is a lot of anger.

    I also see quite a bit of projection. I have tried today to make serious arguments but all you see is that I am angry and

    I hope you can deal with why you are so angry about this, because all anger comes from fear and you need to address that.

    I am not afraid. I am actually content that I am old enough that I will not have to deal with what I see coming.

    However I do have children and grand children and I am concerned about them.

    Again, I hope you have as nice a day as I am having.

    Mike K (b3dd19)

  195. If there is a hero in the last decade, a person who has stood as a rear guard against hyperpartisanship (although he has largely failed) it would be Mitch McConnell. No, wait, let me explain.

    McConnell has, both in minority and majority, attempted to keep the Senate as a place of civil debate and decorum, where people may disagree but do not make it personal. Comity. He has largely failed, and has perhaps bent over backwards too far and too long, but he has TRIED to stop the Senate’s slide to a place where raw power prevails.

    Where has the hyperpartisanship come from? Almost exclusively from the Democrats. It probably started with the Bork hearings, but wasn’t really pronounced until W’s administration, where the Democrats decided that they were robbed in 2000 and that W would get no help whatsoever. Reagan, Bush Sr, and Clinton were all able to accomplish major legislation with bipartisan support.

    With W it started with filibustering judges. A new tactic that had been very rare before, Reid and Schumer decided they’d see what the GOP did if they just blocked any judge to the right of Gerald Ford. And the GOP did nothing but plead for comity, which the newly hyperpartisan Democrats took for weakness. Eventually both party’s squishes came together and negotiated away the President’s powers to appoint judges and the Democrats smiled. They’d gained the power to block appointments and legislation with very little cost.

    Fast forward to today, where the Dems, when in power, executed the nuclear option that the GOP had resisted. Now, they were using “blue slips” on every appointment and insisting of 40 hours of debate on EVERY SINGLE ADMINISTRATION NOMINEE below cabinet rank, and the Press is letting this go unremarked. Why? Because all the acting undersecretaries and whatnot are Obama appointees or career Democrat partisans and if it takes a week for each nominee to get a vote, they can sit out the clock on Trump.

    So far, McConnell has reacted slowly. The debate time has been cut, but is still being abused, and the blue slip system has been shelved. But McConnell is reluctant to eliminate the last vestiges of the old Senate even in the face of this hyperpartisanship.

    And it is sad indeed that folks who the right blame Trump for what Reid and Schumer have done.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  196. not sure if this matters but i need to stretch out on the whole Judge Moore case. First I do not feel or think the WP story is well sourced. That being said, it is still ok in many states for the legal age of consent to be 16 as it was and is in Alabama. Its neither weird, creepy or strange. Heck, is it weird to be in your 70s and marry someone in their 20s? For me I wouldn’t do it. If a young woman asked for my advise about it, I would recommend she NOT do it, but it is not immortal, illegal or a crime of any kind. Just not for everyone. Is it “creepy”? To me thats a subjective term. Was it “creepy” for anyone who has done it in history or in the USA? To me (and I hope to others) context is everything. If it is a guy who keeps divorcing his wife (or wives) as soon as she gets a little older, in order for him to always stay/feel young, so he must also have a wife in his 20s, yeah, to me its “creepy” (ALSO IMMORAL BUT I REALIZE NOT EVERYONE WILL AGREE WITH ME ON THAT ONE) . But you see, this is why the WP article was a hit piece: Its all about the “grey areas” and the “headlines”. It is trying to create a “cloud of doubt”. That isn’t good journalism its propaganda. There is no context to anything. For instance:

    In North America, the age of consent in Canada is 16. All U.S. states set their limits between 16 and 18. The age of consent in Mexico is complex. Typically, Mexican states have a “primary” age of consent (which may be as low as 12), and sexual conduct with persons below that age is always illegal. I am in NYS. Individuals aged 16 or younger in New York are not legally able to consent to sexual activity, and such activity may result in prosecution for statutory rape. New York statutory rape law is violated when a person has consensual sexual intercourse with an individual under age under age 17, who they are not married to. Now even though NYS is one year higher than Alabama, NY has one of the highest rape rates in the country. NYCity alone had over 2000 rapes in 2016. I realize a higher population but what i am trying to say just because a man in his 30s dated teenage girls at or near the age of 16, who were of the age of consent, even though he asked their parents permission, does not make him “creepy” or even “suspect of raping an underage girl”. States with a higher consent age are just as bad or worse as what is being implied about Moore.

    In regards to the woman who made the accusations she was either assaulted or raped at the age 16 or 17 in high school, and her yearbook proves it, I have had a big problem when I first saw it. As a person with an extensive artist background, and collect art; I study works for their authenticity, and the signed year book is clearly a forgery. At least 3 different hand lettering styles are present. Different inks. And her lawyer does not wish to hand over the yearbook to a neutral 3rd party to be analyzed. This accusers accusations are clearly suspect as a political hit. I do not need to hear about her personal life to know this accuser is mistaken or lying. And she has had help in her mistake/falsehood by others, possibly her lawyer.

    Happy Thanksgiving to everyone.

    Where Eagles Dare (8f562c)

  197. *And it is sad indeed that folks ON the right blame Trump for what Reid and Schumer have done.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  198. She, not he.

    Yes, of course. Cheap shot. Again you dismiss rather than engage.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  199. She was an incorrigible 14 year old.

    As I said last night, that makes her story more likely, not less: that’s the kind of girl who would think it a good thing to go out with an older (in her terms) guy.

    Nelson had a motive to punish him for ruling against her in her divorce.
    Except he didn’t. He signed off on a pro-forma motion made by her own lawyer.

    kishnevi (ec71b1)

  200. Honestly, Mike K, I just wanted to address that particular portion of your comment because when on the receiving end, it’s hard to believe that it’s done with anything less than disdain. But I am happy to give you the benefit of the doubt. Further, that one statement ties in so much with your continual accusations of TDS to those who criticize Trump. Can you see why your reflexive accusations of TDS could be construed as you holding in disdain those who criticize him?

    Dana (023079)

  201. Patterico,

    Do you REALLY believe that Trump supporters are a cause of hyperpartisanship? Or anything? This is a reaction, not a cause and if you don’t see that, you don’t see anything.

    Remember Bushhitler? If not, try Googling images.

    Remember who started the mass filibusters?

    Remember who resisted the nuclear option and who used it?

    Remember who started the politics of personal destruction?

    Remember who rallied behind a rapist and perjurer?

    And who was calling for comity the whole way? That the “GOPe” is now reviled by the Trump partisans because it refrained from responding to the Democrat’s hyperpartisan tactics.

    Trumpism is a reaction to an existing condition and getting rid of every last Trumpie will not change the way the Democrats have behaved for over a decade.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  202. Having said that, I have a turkey to get started.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  203. 201, Sanders…most likely to die sooner so long as Keith Ellison is not the Veep.

    urbanleftbehind (d68f50)

  204. Impeccable comic timing, Kevin.

    urbanleftbehind (d68f50)

  205. Every day.

    It seems like a daily occurrence. Trump does something outrageous. Then, like stuffing to turkey, his supporters say….. “well, so and so did the same thing”. Hillary did this. Bill. Ted. Somebody did something, somewhere, sometime just as bad.

    The problem is that it just keeps happening.

    Every day.

    noel (b4d580)

  206. She was an incorrigible 14 year old.

    As I said last night, that makes her story more likely, not less: that’s the kind of girl who would think it a good thing to go out with an older (in her terms) guy.

    Not only does it make her story more credible to me, it makes me also wonder that, if Moore set his sights on her was because he knew she was an incorrigible 14 year old, and therefore might be more easily accessible.

    Dana (023079)

  207. First the speech, then you get these incredible sammichs for your Thanksgiving…now say thank you.

    It is an honor to be here. I have to tell you, you know. The Coast Guard always respected, but if you’re looking at it as a brand, there’s no brand that went up more than the Coast Guard with what happened in Texas, and I would say in particular, Texas has been incredible. You saved 16,000 lives. Nobody knows that. 16,000 lives. In fact when I first heard the number, I said, you mean like 600? 500? 16,000 lives in Texas.

    So as bad as that hurricane was, and that was bad one. That was a big water job, right? It kept coming in and going back they couldn’t get rid of it. They’d never seen it. I guess it was the biggest water dump they’ve ever seen. But when you’ve got 16,000

    [inaudible, Trump turns around to face the crowd] big groups of people

    [inaudible, Trump turns back around] but when you’ve got 16,000, that’s really something. And then Florida hit. And you know that went very well, you know that went pretty well, right? The job you did in Florida. And then Puerto Rico. I really mean that, I think that there’s no brand of any kind, I don’t just mean a military brand, that’s gone up more than the Coast Guard. Incredible people. You’ve done an incredible job. I love coming in here and doing this with you today. I think it’s — we have to keep you very well fed. This is good stuff. It’s an honor. This is the first lady, you know.

    [Melania Trump: Happy Thanksgiving.]

    We went together to Texas. We saw what you were doing. You just followed that storm, right next to that storm. You saved so many people. I still haven’t figured out how people take their boats out into a hurricane. Some day you’ll explain it. Jean was just telling me they actually do it to to save their boat in many cases. They’re not thinking about their life. They’re thinking about their boats. They go out in a boat and think think they have a wonderful boat. They’ve had it for years. It can weather anything and then they have 25-foot waves crashing down. And that would be the end of that. You saved a lot of people. I want to thank you. On behalf of the whole country and on behalf of us, what a job you’ve done. Thank you very much.

    I’ll also take questions. Should we leave the media here? To do the questions or should we tell the media? It’s Thanksgiving. Let’s let the media stay. Anybody have any questions about the country, how we’re doing or any of those things? Wow. I love it when you don’t. That means you’re doing great. I love that. That’s the greatest. The press I know doesn’t have any questions. If you do, we won’t take them but that’s already. The press has plenty of questions.

    The country’s doing really well. Stock market, all time high. This is all good stuff. I just spoke to a lot of your friends in Afghanistan and Iraq. We spoke to the USS Monterey. Great ship, great missile ship. We spoke to a lot of different folks, from the Air Force, to the Army, just now, a little while ago at Mar-a-Lago. The telecommunication systems [inaudible] we go live to Iraq, live to Afghanistan, and it’s really incredible. I told them, our country is doing great. You folks are fighting so hard and working so hard. It’s nice that you’re working for something that’s really starting to work. We’ve cut back so much on regulation and all the waste and the all of the abuse.

    The stock market on Friday hit the all-time high. The highest it’s ever been, ever. In your whole long life, the stock market is higher than it’s ever been. And that means your 401(k)s and all the things you have. You know whether it’s, even if you’re in the military. You have a country that’s starting to turn. We want to have a strong country.

    We want have a country where I can buy new Coast Guard cutters and not have to worry about it, alright. And that’s what we’re doing, we’re building up wealth so we can take care of our protection. And we’re ordering tremendous amounts of new equipment, we’re at $700 billion for the military. And you know they were cutting back for years, they jut kept cutting, cutting cutting the military. And you got lean, to put it nicely, depleted was the word, and now it’s changing.

    The Navy, I can tell you, we’re ordering ships, with the Air Force I can tell you we’re ordering a lot of planes, in particular the F-35 fighter jet, which is like almost like an invisible fighter. I was asking the Air Force guys, I said, how good is this plane? They said, well, sir, you can’t see it. I said but in a fight. You know, in a fight, like I watch on the movies. The fight, they’re fighting. How good is this? They say, well, it wins every time because the enemy cannot see it. Even if it’s right next to them, it can’t see it. I said that helps. That’s a good thing.

    But I mean we have equipment that — nobody has the equipment that we have. And it’s sad when we’re selling our equipment to other countries but we’re not buying it ourselves. But now that’s all changed. And I said, the stuff that we have is always a little bit better too. When we sell to other countries, even if they’re allies you never know about an ally. An ally can turn. You’re going to find that out. But I always say make lives a little bit better. Give it that extra speed, a little bit — keep a little bit — keep about 10% in the bag. We have — nobody has what with we have. That’s what we’re doing. We’re really proud of the Coast Guard and I’m very proud — I walked in today and Jean said, the day I got elected, the following morning, they were putting up the statement that I made right on your front door and I came in and the first thing I noticed, of course, I said wow, look at that. I said, did you put that up just for me because I happen to be coming here today? And you did that the first day. That tells me something. That tells me something.

    Let’s go, fellas. Come on. Let’s get up here. Let’s get up here. Yeah. This is good stuff.” Trump then served sandwiches.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  208. The Navy, I can tell you, we’re ordering ships, with the Air Force I can tell you we’re ordering a lot of planes, in particular the F-35 fighter jet, which is like almost like an invisible fighter. I was asking the Air Force guys, I said, how good is this plane? They said, well, sir, you can’t see it. I said but in a fight. You know, in a fight, like I watch on the movies. The fight, they’re fighting. How good is this? They say, well, it wins every time because the enemy cannot see it. Even if it’s right next to them, it can’t see it. I said that helps. That’s a good thing.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  209. I thought that special head was worthy of repeat for our less enabled members.

    https://www.buzzfeed.com/tomnamako/trump-coast-guard-thanksgiving?utm_term=.trnJJ9W13#.sd8jj3wJW

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  210. Surely he’s playing us..

    Ben incredulous (b3d5ab)

  211. Can you see why your reflexive accusations of TDS could be construed as you holding in disdain those who criticize him?

    I can see your lip curl as you type that.

    Watch that video of Haidt and Peterson. It has some pretty good ideas about why a lot of right wingers (I’m libertarian) really dislike Trump and are contemptuous of those who support him.

    Also, you might read that VDH column about “Deplorables.”

    After 10 months of governance, Trump’s deregulations, a foreign policy of principled realism, energy agendas, judicial appointments, efforts at tax reform and health care recalibration, cabinet appointments, and reformulation at the Departments of Education, the EPA, and Interior seem so far conservative to the core.

    Illegal Immigration, Trade, and Realism
    In the few areas where Trump conceivably differed from his 16 primary Republican rivals—immigration, trade, and foreign policy—the 20th-century Republican/conservative orthodoxy was actually closer to Trump’s positions than to those of recent Republican nominees, John McCain or Mitt Romney.

    It’s not just me. There are a lot of people who are glad he is president, even over Romney who I donated more to than I ever have before.

    Mike K (b3dd19)

  212. Mike K,

    Let me assure you that my lip has never curled when I’ve spoken to you, even in heated disagreement. But I would kindly ask again, can you see why your reflexive accusations of TDS could be construed as you holding in disdain those who criticize him?

    Dana (55dc5b)

  213. It’s a miracle we’re still alive…

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  214. Much of this falls into knit picking like Conway’s pic at the black college cinfab, when one dials to Ellen, I refer to frank millers dystopian novella from the early 90s, which itself wee amabufrstation of Reagan derangement.

    narciso (d1f714)

  215. A manifestation, I citeccontemporary sources like Thomas wictor noted re Moore, this is nit definitive, who would think Barton would go off the rails.

    narciso (d1f714)

  216. The difference between genius and stupidity is genius has it’s limits

    -Einstein

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  217. Hoods think a Tea Party pervert would do a Wiener within such short proximity?

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  218. can you see why your reflexive accusations of TDS could be construed as you holding in disdain those who criticize him?

    Nope because I don’t think you are Deplorable while you mostly think those who would vote for and still support that terrible vulgar fellow are, if not deplorable, don’t deserve to be seen in polite company.

    After all, And these are not simply critiques about his boorishness or bombast, but also include his decision making strategies, his lacks of character, ethics, and principles, the issues he focuses on while at the same time ignoring vital ones, etc., as well as decisions he’s making that impact us all.

    See? Nothing good about that awful fellow.

    Watch “Caddy Shack” again. You may not realize it but you are in it.

    Mike K (b3dd19)

  219. , And these are not simply critiques about his boorishness or bombast, but also include his decision making strategies, his lacks of character, ethics, and principles, the issues he focuses on while at the same time ignoring vital ones, etc., as well as decisions he’s making that impact us all.

    Those are statements of fact, not opinion: after all that’s the essence of your Caddy Shack reference. Yet you can not see how Trump is damaging the conservative agenda by implementing it so badly. You just dismiss the idea as TDS.

    kishnevi (ec71b1)

  220. Kevin M 200:

    DRJ (and Dana, indirectly):

    Back in #77 I made two points, and DRJ had issues with the second one as being an off-topic issue. But he evaded the first one that was entirely ON topic, and reflected my dissatisfaction with the one-sided blame that this blog has taken, suggesting that Trump is the cause of the present unpleasantness.

    I think you are mistaken. Let’s review my comments responding to your comment 77. The first was my comment 84 that was, indeed, regarding an off-topic issue:

    Kevin,

    I think your comment to Dana is unfair, although you of course have every right to feel that way and say it. But having blogged here before, I know that it is harder than it looks. I used to spend hours — literally — everyday reading various information sources, thinking about what I read, drafting/writing posts, verifying what I had written, proofreading what I had written, and attending to the details required by WordPress to publish my posts. And then I would read the comments and often respond.

    I promise you that after days and weeks and months and even years of doing this, the one thing I absolutely insisted on was writing about what I wanted to write. I bet Dana feels the same way, as do most bloggers. But the great thing is that anyone can blog and cover the stories they want to write about.

    DRJ (15874d) — 11/22/2017 @ 10:36 pm

    In comment 86, NJRob referenced my comment 84 and asked:

    How was Kevin being unfair. Dana and Patterico do tend to agree on everything. That’s all Kevin said. Do you disagree?

    Is that somehow an insult?

    NJRob (b00189) — 11/22/2017 @ 10:46 pm

    I responded to NJRob at comments 88 and 89 that quoted you and explained that quote was the reason I went off-topic with you, not in any attempt to insult:

    88. [Kevin M said:]Why don’t you write a post about the Democrats in the Senate and their slow walk of EVERY appointment if you want to rail about hyperpartisanship.

    This. [Meaning this quote was what I was responding to.]

    By the way, I would be interested in reading it if Kevin wants to write it and offer it to Latterick as a guest post. I have no problem with the idea. My problem is the suggestion that they should write on other topics or have different opinions on the topics they write about.

    DRJ (15874d) — 11/22/2017 @ 10:58 pm

    89. Patterico, not Lutterick (who is that, Autocorrect?) And I’m so glad I no longer have to proofread.

    DRJ (15874d) — 11/22/2017 @ 10:59 pm

    I think you missed my comment 88 because it was responding to NJRob, but I did eventually address both points. Having said that, your initial comment was not directed at me and I don’t understand why you think I should have addressed your point. I say what’s on my mind and you say what’s on your mind. I am not as concerned about what Patterico and Dana blog about because it’s their decision, not mine.

    DRJ (15874d)

  221. This sounds useful for this thread. Any volunteers?
    https://lifehacker.com/you-should-get-drunk-and-cause-a-scene-today-1820680226/amp

    kishnevi (ec71b1)

  222. On this Thanksgiving Day, a traditional day for football, I am reminded of the old adage that Trump and his supporters have made their motto: The best defense is a good offense.

    DRJ (15874d)

  223. Yes, of course. Cheap shot. Again you dismiss rather than engage.

    Kevin M (752a26) — 11/23/2017 @ 11:48 am

    I don’t see it as a “cheap shot” to make sure you understand that someone you have shared this blog with for years is a female. If you did realize it and just forgot the s, then that’s different. Is that what happened? If so, I did not know that.

    And I did engage. I explained how you had my argument wrong. And then you ignored that explanation in your latest comment. How does that show an intent to engage in your part?

    Patterico (0170be)

  224. 233
    Offensive in more ways than one.

    kishnevi (ec71b1)

  225. Actually although I support Trump, I don’t have to say, and many Trump supporters do not say, “well, so and so did the same thing” to defend my support of Trump. In fact, most, if not all Trump supporters simply state that Trump is not a Clinton because he doe not act like a Clinton or any other type of politician. I believed Trump, and not his accusers, back in 2016, not because Bill Clinton “did it”, but because I believed the accusers were part of an orchestrated DNC-Clinton machine hit. The Access video was not looked at as “proof of anything” but simply cheap blow hard talk. Much like I have heard all my life. Clinton’s accusations are & were different. Clinton was accused for years of sex crimes or harassment even before he ran for POTUS. Clinton was ALSO committing his crimes while in office and all his accusers were women who knew him & had originally been DEMOCRAT supporters of him. Trump’s accusers showed up when he won the primaries and was pulling even or ahead of Clinton.

    Trump supporters have very good “instincts”. we can “smell a rat” because so many establishment politicians for decades have let us or our families before us, down. Whether its Ted Kennedy walking away from a drowning & pregnant Mary Jo and later sexually assaulting other woman, or a Bush 41 lying about taxes or a McCain stopping campaigning while ahead of Obama, to go back to DC because Bush 43 ask him to (wtf?), or when McCain & Bush & Rubio worked on illegal immigration compromises, or when McCain said to build the wall on the southern border and then didn’t do a thing to support it, or Romney also being ahead and then not turning out the vote or choking in the final debate with Obama, or a Biden & Pelosi being so called Catholics yet also being pro-abortion patriots, or Obama not answering when life begins at conception because it “is above his pay grade” (weak answer and definitely not qualified for being POTUS). A Trump supporter knows when “white man speaks with fork tongue”.

    Now that would cause the non-Trump supporter to state : “but Trump is a women-hater and a carnival barker salesman of the first class. If anyone speak with a fork tongue its him, no???” Well “no” he isn’t and “no” he doesn’t. Trump’s presidency and life is surrounded by strong & accomplished women. Its all because in many instances, because of image or his presentation or people simply don’t agree with his positions, he is criticized. But that doesn’t mean Trump is wrong or bad for the country or the Republican Party or simply “a non-Clinton Clinton.” The Democrats lost my father & many of his generation many years ago. The Republicans lost me and many others many years ago, and even though someone might say, well you liked Reagan but Reagan did not always do the “right thing” either, for many of us we didn’t feel lied to the way all of the other politicians I listed above made us feel when they failed us.

    For most if not all Trump supporters, we can tell Trump is in their fighting for what he ran on. Same went for Reagan. Even if they fail. We know its not a one man show and politics is also a team sport and we can tell who is not holding their own. Oh and its quite amazing that for those who believed the 2016 polls and were wrong, are now using polls to predict a Moore or Trump downfall, have simply not learned a recent history lesson: none of us are beholden to tell a poster the truth. The system doesn’t represent many of us (and i dont just mean blue-collar but also white-collar).

    The problem with those who critique Trump supporters is not that there is disagreement. Trump supporters love a good discussion, even a healthy argument. What we don like is to be mischaracterized by what motivates us. FOR INSTANCE: we don’t just have disagreements with Republicans but also Democrats. When we say “the Establishment” we do not mean just Republicans. We also do not like injustice or racism. We also do not all own or carry guns, even if we have a high regard & support for the 2nd Amendment. We also realize their his racism in the USA. We also know there is bigotry in the USA. BUT WE ALSO KNOW THE USA IS THE BEST COUNTRY ON EARTH. Many of us want family leave for the arrival of a new born baby. Many of us want small businesses to get the tax break just like the large corporation will/might get. we want the tax cuts to made permanent for individuals as well as corporations. We want strong military and support our vets and want people with pre-existing conditions to be covered. we want Social Security to be solvent. We want smaller government. We want the ability to fire bad or non-performing government employees. WE WANT WANT TERM LIMITS. We want the working class to have good paying jobs. We support standing at the National Anthem and support our cops and emergency responders. we like hip hop, country, pop and rock n roll. we don’t think legalizing pot is a good thing just because it can be taxed. We are good with medical pot or the use of hemp as a commodity but not commercial recreational pot use (but we dont think users should be punished the same way dealers should be punished). We have finally controlled drinking and driving now we have to deal with drugging & driving. We don’t think just because you smoke pot you don’t also drink alcohol. Drugs are for sickness and drinking is for enjoying a meal, abuse either and you end up dead or very sick. We want a clean environment and water, and we also want gas or oil pipe lines (however all lines should be above ground in case of leaks). Many of us have gay friends or family and support their human rights but that doesn’t mean we agree with gay marriage as a human right which can punish those if us who do not agree with gay marriage. If transgenders want to serve in a non-military role in the military, fine, but not as active duty soldiers and the government should not have to pay for their transition. We do not believe that both men and woman should register for the draft (that is not equality that is societal suicide). We do not believe a persons sex should define who they are. As per the director Luca Guadagnino:

    “I am a gay man,” he states flatly. “I’m attracted to men; I’ve always been. I live my life with a companion that is a man. I have admiration for the expression of a lot of LGBTQ artists today … but I struggle with the concept of defining a person by his or her sexual identity. It makes me so uncomfortable. I just don’t get it, and I don’t believe that the fight for civil rights – which is so crucially important – goes hand-in-hand with indictment of someone by his or her identity.”

    We believe southern generals were traitors (the south fired on Fort Sumter for goodness sakes!!!) but we also respect the southern communities to make their own decisions on how to represent that part of their history. We want to be independent from any countries for our energy needs. We believe in alternative energy sources as well as coal. We want the inner-cities and the farmers to have good jobs & policies and a good life. We like non-GMO or organic though we also like chicken McNuggets 😉 We do not believe in bailing out banks or corporations. Just like the little guy, the big guy has to fly on his or her own. We do not like when corporate executives give themselves huge raises yet lay off those same employees who helped them afford those hugh raises. We dont like illegal immigration. We want immigrants to keep & love their cultural familial roots but also want them to assimilate in USA culture and society. Colleges are way over priced. We hold FDR in high regard as well as Reagan. We also see the good points in the Presidencies of Teddy Roosevelt, Coolidge and Kennedy. We like Nixon but Reagan better. We like a strong military but not continual war. context is everything. Thats why the media (news or hollywood) tries to control it.

    we dont like being pigeon holed. we feel those who do that are “dumbing down” political discussions. A Trump supporter’s principles are based more on timeless basic principles of good vs bad, justice vs injustice, charity vs uncharitableness, empathy vs antipathy then modern fads of popularity, fashion or mass market populism. A Trump supporter (as well as Trump himself) understands even though Trump sells mass market baseball caps, he better provide THE RESULTS that the caps symbolize or it all means nothing. The caps are a MacGuffin that the audience & the director are all in on. While the mass-media are calling the caps and the creator & wearers of the caps derogatory names & insults, essentially putting them down, Trump supporters are simply going about their daily work and reading up on and listening to what is Trump’s plan the the future for they, their families and the USA. In their minds is the question “Is Trump going to let us down or not like SO MANY politicians in the past?” As usual, the media and the political establishment and their surrogates, were and are letting us down and not letting a political message different from their own to get out or even develop. So the Trump supporter listens and studies the situation even more. Just because the media states “Trump is failing” doesn’t make it so. My goodness, with so many presidents in the past we never heart anything about if their presidencies failed or not until they left office. If anything, Trump supporters give Trump more benefit of the doubt because we know the media and the establishment are so corrupt and bad: They would never let Trump ever have good press.

    we read and listen to alot of different opinions and sources. we want to see results but not just any results. Congress and the Supreme Court and past POTUS’ have let us down but the current POTUS has not. The current POTUS has had the most negative press coverage any of us have ever seen or read but it doesn’t matter. We know the news media of the establishment are for a USA that many of us have never heard of or want it to become.

    Hope everyone’s Thanksgiving is going well.

    Where Eagles Dare (8f562c)

  226. Never mind. I see you took it up in a subsequent comment.

    Do you REALLY believe that Trump supporters are a cause of hyperpartisanship?

    No. They are the cause of the current unpleasantness, in my view, by serving an an object example of hyperpartsianship (and not as its cause). They are disappointing to me because I am used to Democrats being the main if not only hyperpartisans.

    Patterico (0170be)

  227. This may be causal rather than associative but only as clubs wouldn’t which couldn’t have me as member.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  228. Remember when the scales fell off Paul’s eyes? The Sanhedrin were apoplectic.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  229. If only autocorrect could enable literate modes of expression. That would be a Christmas miracle.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  230. Yet you can not see how Trump is damaging the conservative agenda by implementing it so badly. You just dismiss the idea as TDS.

    I was unaware that Trump was the Speaker of the House or the Majority leader of the Senate.

    I am quite aware of years of GOP promises that, if we only had a Republican president, we would fix all those things like Obama are and tax reform and immigration.

    I am not all that pleased with his tendency to shoot from the hip at opponents but I watched Romney smile as he was gutted like a fish by Obama and Candy Crowley.

    Bankruptcies are another complaint of NeverTrumpers. How many entrepreneurs do you know ?

    How many bankruptcies of businesses are you aware of ?

    None of these were personal and none were Chapter 7, that I am aware of. Let me know if there were some where investors got cheated.

    I used to defend Bush but I am quitting now that the two Bushes tell us they voted for someone else than the GOP nominee.

    I have posted since 2009 that We should get out of Afghanistan.

    I was OK with Bush trying to make an Arab democracy in 2003 but it failed and it is time to quit.

    The Kurds, at least are allies. Iran and the Iraq regime are not.

    Now, my turkey is calling.

    Mike K (b3dd19)

  231. Where Eagles Dare,

    That is an informative comment and it seems like a comprehensive catalogue of your concerns, but what convinces you that other Trump supporters agree with your ideas? Also, what happens if Trump lets you down? What other leader or leaders do you believe in?

    DRJ (15874d)

  232. Mike @ 41..didnt you see his address to the Coast Guard? That’s not shooting from the hip. It’s self-immolation.

    Somebody get a fire extinguisher. He’s opening his cake-hole!

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  233. Bankruptcies are another complaint of NeverTrumpers. How many entrepreneurs do you know ?

    How many bankruptcies of businesses are you aware of ?

    None of these were personal and none were Chapter 7, that I am aware of. Let me know if there were some where investors got cheated.

    I am knowledgeable about business and individual bankruptcies, and about entrepreneurs.

    Bankruptcy creditors come in all kinds and sizes in both business and individual bankruptcies — big banks (usually secured creditors) down to small-town credit unions, big companies to small mom-and-pop businesses, large national and small local plumbers, electricians, cleaners, etc., and even friends and family members. Businesses hire little creditors and big creditors, but they typically have more creditors than individuals so there are more people hurt when they file bankruptcy.

    In addition, not everyone who does works for and bills a business assumes they won’t get paid and/or can afford to price it into their services and products. If anything, most people who work for businesses assume the businesses will be more responsible than individuals who hire them.

    Isn’t that true of you, too, Mike K? Did you see many individual patients who couldn’t pay their medical bills, but many businesses that did?

    It’s true that one use of bankruptcy laws is for entrepreneurs who try new ideas, suffer setbacks and need a fresh start in bankruptcy. I don’t think that applies to Trump, who had a consistent business model and used repeated bankruptcies when money ran low. He hurt many small creditors in his bankruptcies. He was allowed to do it but it is not admirable.

    DRJ (15874d)

  234. Also, do you understand the difference between investors and creditors? I don’t think we care if Trump’s investors lost money. They knowingly invested with him and investors can lose money. But creditors provide goods and services with the expectation they will be paid. Those are the creditors and debts Trump discharged in his bankruptcies that I sympathize with.

    DRJ (15874d)

  235. I was unaware that Trump was the Speaker of the House or the Majority leader of the Senate.

    Trump is President, which is even more important.

    DRJ (15874d)

  236. DRJ

    I would say its been about 9 months and Trump has until 2020 to see if he fully lets me down or not. Right now I am just trusting Trump to either put up or shut up. He is the new kid on the block. Most if not all of the other politicians & judges have shown me their true colors. Watching ether how they run their own states, or rule on court cases or what legislation they pass, if any.

    What convinces me that other Trump supporters agree with my ideas is that many if not all are policies that Trump ran on and we voted him into office on, he is either implementing or working with Congress to pass & then sign. Also i dont think my ideas are just supported by “Trump supporters”. I think a lot of Americans across a variety of political spectrums agree with them. Thats the problem with people that look at politics as an “us or them” dialectic. Society in the USA is past that. or maybe to better state: we should never have gotten taken down a road of “us or them” politics. Thats not what this country or any country of substance for that matter, was founded on. Thats where the media comes in. The more they keep us at each others throats, the more chaos, and the more disunity. In the end the media & big government have the big engines of science & technology to control since all we have is chaos & confrontation. The media (at least until this huge sex scandal thing shattered their appearance as “trusted agents of public opinion”) are only human and cracks in their “media empires” are showing. For instance, thats why the media will never post any positive stories about Trump. All they want is to create distrust about him so voters will eventually be disenchanted & take their trust & votes with them. The media dont care even if Trump supporters even vote. They would be just as happen for them to stay home. But Trump supporters aren’t like the media supposes: You know the philosophical thought experiment dont you? “If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?” Just because the media doesn’t talk about the good that Trump has & is doing doesn’t mean it hasn’t or doesn’t happen? People have a variety of modes of communication 7 perception. Most of it face to face, relation to relation. We didn’t need “the media” in the past to get good ideas across and we dont need them now.

    …and if Trump gets in in 2020 he will have another 4 years to either let me down or keep my support. With both parties, especially in DC, they have been very corrupt for a very long time. i don’t see a comprehensive Trump correction in only a year or even 2. Would be nice but Rome wasn’t built on a day. If Trump can chip away gradually and get it done slowly i am fine with that.

    Where Eagles Dare (8f562c)

  237. Right now I am just trusting Trump to either put up or shut up.

    Would it be too much to ask for both?

    Patterico (0170be)

  238. I don’t think that applies to Trump, who had a consistent business model and used repeated bankruptcies when money ran low. He hurt many small creditors in his bankruptcies. He was allowed to do it but it is not admirable.

    I’m sure, as an expert, you can come up with examples or links to examples. All I have seen is complaints from people who don’t like Trump.

    Mike K (b3dd19)

  239. Patterico

    Since the first amendment is for everyone, even POTUS, I am willing to allow him his outlet until I consider it just noise or lies or just words. He has provided results so I give him his space. All the other presidents were given it. They simply didn’t use the current media outlets to their fullest potential (except maybe Reagan who I think would have loved twitter. Reagan loved it all: radio, movies, tv…).

    Considering all of the politicians I listed above who failed or didn’t back up their word, and I listened to many a long winded speech that in the end didn’t amount to anything, I will give Trump the same courtesy I gave the other blowhards.

    For me all politicians are blowhards, pitchmen, or snake salesmen. Thats what strikes me as so ironic when i hear people who negatively critique Trump for being the same thing. If anything he came with life experiences & past performance job related skills to be a politician 😉

    Where Eagles Dare (8f562c)

  240. Trumps business model in casinos led to multiple bankruptcies:

    Trump claims that successful businesses file for bankruptcy all the time. At the debate he said “virtually every person that you read about on the front page of the business sections, they’ve used the [bankruptcy] law.”

    But the facts don’t back that comment up.

    Despite high profile examples, including General Motors (GM), Lehman Brothers and most of the nation’s major airlines, fewer than 20% of public companies with assets of $1 billion or more have filed for bankruptcy in the last 30 years, according to data from Bankruptcy.com and S&P Capital IQ.

    Trump has never filed for personal bankruptcy. But he has filed four business bankruptcies, which Bankruptcy.com says makes Trump the top filer in recent decades. All of them were centered around casinos he used to own in Atlantic City. They were all Chapter 11 restructurings, which lets a company stay in business while shedding debt it owes to banks, employees and suppliers.

    He makes no apologies for having much of his debt wiped out. “These lenders aren’t babies. These are total killers,” he said at the debate. “These are not the nice, sweet little people.”

    Not exactly. Trump has hurt little people, in and out of bankruptcy:

    At least 60 lawsuits, along with hundreds of liens, judgments, and other government filings reviewed by the USA TODAY NETWORK, document people who have accused Trump and his businesses of failing to pay them for their work. Among them: a dishwasher in Florida. A glass company in New Jersey. A carpet company. A plumber. Painters. Forty-eight waiters. Dozens of bartenders and other hourly workers at his resorts and clubs, coast to coast. Real estate brokers who sold his properties. And, ironically, several law firms that once represented him in these suits and others.

    DRJ (15874d)

  241. Most people can’t afford to sue or don’t bother suing over unpaid debts, just like most doctors don’t sue patients. There may be many more.

    DRJ (15874d)

  242. Trumps business model in casinos led to multiple bankruptcies:

    I’m sure you know the story of Atlantic City. Everybpdy went broke.

    filings reviewed by the USA TODAY NETWORK, document people who have accused Trump and his businesses of failing to pay them for their work.

    I have no doubt. Any judgements ? You people sure like accusations.

    Mike K (b3dd19)

  243. Judgments and settlements. He has sued and been sued more than the top 5 American real estate developers combined. Using the courts and threats of courts, including bankruptcy, is his business method. He’s allowed to do this but it isn’t something to admire, not is it typical of businesspeople.

    DRJ (15874d)

  244. “You people.”

    But we’re the haters.

    DRJ (15874d)

  245. combined. Using the courts and threats of courts, including bankruptcy, is his business method.

    OK. And you don’t like his method of governing either.

    Let’s see how things are in a year,

    Mike K (b3dd19)

  246. “You people.”

    But we’re the haters.

    DRJ (15874d) — 11/23/2017 @ 7:18 pm

    Yes, you are.

    Mike K (b3dd19)

  247. can you see why your reflexive accusations of TDS could be construed as you holding in disdain those who criticize him?

    Nope because I don’t think you are Deplorable while you mostly think those who would vote for and still support that terrible vulgar fellow are, if not deplorable, don’t deserve to be seen in polite company.

    After all, And these are not simply critiques about his boorishness or bombast, but also include his decision making strategies, his lacks of character, ethics, and principles, the issues he focuses on while at the same time ignoring vital ones, etc., as well as decisions he’s making that impact us all.

    See? Nothing good about that awful fellow.

    Watch “Caddy Shack” again. You may not realize it but you are in it.

    Mike K (b3dd19) — 11/23/2017 @ 1:46 pm

    Dana (023079)

  248. Like I said, mostly knit picking, so what policy choice do you object to, I admit supporting prince salmons agenda is a bit of a gamble. I think canceling tps for Haitians is an unforced error, but he hasn’t pushed strongly on the birder adjustment tax, then again he hasn’t made an aggressive targeted play for major reindustrialization

    narciso (d1f714)

  249. Oops. Sent too soon…

    can you see why your reflexive accusations of TDS could be construed as you holding in disdain those who criticize him?

    Nope because I don’t think you are Deplorable while you mostly think those who would vote for and still support that terrible vulgar fellow are, if not deplorable, don’t deserve to be seen in polite company.

    Now you are reflexively insulting me, claiming that I consider Trump voters, if not deplorable, at least not deserving to be seen in polite company. Well, that’s a rather deplorable assumption on your part. And I’m the you people in this? As I said upthread, I was happy to give you the benefit of the doubt regarding your TDS accusations not coming with disdain. But when it comes to me, no such benefit of the doubt is given, only insults. You have made this personal. Why is defending Trump so important to you?

    After all, And these are not simply critiques about his boorishness or bombast, but also include his decision making strategies, his lacks of character, ethics, and principles, the issues he focuses on while at the same time ignoring vital ones, etc., as well as decisions he’s making that impact us all.

    See? Nothing good about that awful fellow.

    Watch “Caddy Shack” again. You may not realize it but you are in it.

    Mike K (b3dd19) — 11/23/2017 @ 1:46 pm

    I think that there are serious concerns about the President. I think all of us have a responsibility to hold our elected officials accountable, in so much as we are able. Perhaps if he focused on getting legislature through, re-establishing conservatism, etc., etc. and stopped giving me so much to work with, we wouldn’t be having this conversation. I just don’t think a president should be off limits – no matter which side of the aisle.

    Dana (023079)

  250. Talking with Mike K is now unfortunately a waste of time. Do as I do and write him off.

    Patterico (0170be)

  251. Life’s too short to spend interacting with people who are (in JD’s memorable phrase) aggressively dishonest.

    Patterico (0170be)

  252. I’m sure you know the story of Atlantic City. Everybpdy went broke.

    Yes, and you would think that Trump would have realized that and found other projects….

    Guiding four businesses into bankruptcy takes a special kind of judgement. Not a good kind either.

    kishnevi (2dabdc)

  253. so what policy choice do you object to,

    His best achievements seem to those in which he has no input, and leaves the work to be done by his staff.

    kishnevi (2dabdc)

  254. That’s not an answer, now there seems to have been some movement onnisolating north Korea’s nuclear expansion, it would be easy to give up on Afghanistan, if we didn’t care about the consequences. Hariri was a figurehead presiding over a hezbollah controlled army, whose top commanders likely planned his fathers associations.

    narciso (d1f714)

  255. And I did engage. I explained how you had my argument wrong. And then you ignored that explanation in your latest comment. How does that show an intent to engage in your part?

    And you ignored mine, or read it in such a cramped way as to assume I was saying something I wasn’t.

    Trump, Trump supporters, the populist movement in general (includes some of Bernie’s people); all the same phenomenon. It’s a frustration with a system that seems (to them) to be all about the use of power for the benefit of a few and the People be damned.

    Whether it’s illegal immigration, or outsourcing of jobs, or environmentalist extremism or H1-B visas or endless wars to “nation build”, there are a lot of folks who feel left out (many who are left out), and they lined up behind the only guy willing to pull the temple walls down.

    These are folks who are FED UP with Republicans who did nothing while a hyperpartisan left ruined their lives and they are not really very interested in subtleties or decorum. To say that they are uniquely hyperpartisan misses the entire history of the 21st Century. They are reacting after a long train of abuses when no one else would. They are in many cases desperate.

    As someone who is horrified by Trump himself, I have had to examine how we got here, and it has become clear that we got here by telling people to wait past their ability to do so, and by not realizing the depth of their pain. In some cases by not caring, either.

    To go forward from here will require getting someone capable, who can address the issues that were ignored so long. Trump is just a place-holder, put there because no one else would act. If you don’t like Trump, pick someone else, but don’t hope for the status quo ante. That world is dead.

    I would love to see a Cruz-Trump contest in 2020. I expect everyone will be tired of Trump by then.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  256. Horrified, petrified (referencing Russell crowe in beautiful mind) in the same dead pan Tennessee drawl. Mcturtle just lumbers along like one of those galapagos denizens with no particular
    Are direction in mind.

    narciso (d1f714)

  257. And you ignored mine, or read it in such a cramped way as to assume I was saying something I wasn’t.

    Come on. Your response was in a subsequent comment, I saw it afterward, I saw it then, I responded, now you’re ignoring the response. Let’s stop the games, ok?

    Patterico (0170be)

  258. The funniest thing I’ve seen all day: @ #249:”Would it be too much to ask for both?”
    Thank you Pat.

    Tillman (a95660)

  259. democrats are bottom feeders
    republicans eat their own
    with your cesspools of knowledge
    Trump voters will MAGA

    mg (60b0f7)

  260. Actually, Patterico, it was in the original comment, which was quite clear about what I was talking about:
    (#77)

    You seem to invest Trump and Republicans with hyperpartisanship when they respond to questions like this, but for some reason you give the reporter a pass even though he was doing this as a thoroughly partisan Gotcha.

    Trump and his partisans are not a cause of division, they are a symptom of something that has existed for too long. Why don’t you write a post about the Democrats in the Senate and their slow walk of EVERY appointment if you want to rail about hyperpartisanship. The Beast’s name is Schumer.

    I thought this was quite clear that I understood that you were talking about his amen chorus. That I included Trump among them doesn’t change that.

    The point was, and still is, that you are giving everyone else a pass — such as the highly partisan gotcha reporter who got a high five back at the office from the rest of the highly partisan newsroom. This was a political attack, not a reporter with a question.

    Yes, the GOP is split between those who still seek comity with people who would send them to the wall, and others who are digging up their guns, but it is untrue that the GOP is the source of this partisanship. It’s been going on for years and a LOT of people are G-d damned tired of it.

    You are blaming the wrong people. Trump and his ilk are but a symptom of a very sick political culture.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  261. That the original post was misdirected at you, and not Dana, was a mistake. But honestly, you could easily have written every word.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  262. Someone ought to tell mitch mcconnell halloween is over and to take off the turkey mask.

    mg (60b0f7)

  263. Mike K @13:

    I just remember the hit job the WaPoo did on George Allen a few years ago. He gave them an opening with his stupid “Macaca” remark, but they ran with it, including supposed college “friends” remembering racist incidents with zero evidence. They elected Jim Webb.

    Larry Sabato, the supposed Republican polysci guy chimed in with another lie.

    189. SF: What was that lie? I don’t trust him anyway, I don’t remember the exact cause.

    190. narciso (d1f714) — 11/23/2017 @ 10:55 am

    He suddently ‘remembered’ some slurs George Allen had reputedcly made on the eve of the election.

    Mike K @199 11/23/2017 @ 11:24 am.

    He and some other guys who said they were friends of Allen’s in college described him committing racist acts like smashing black people’s mailboxes from a car.

    As far as I know there was never any evidence of what would be a federal crime.

    I don’t think I heard that before. That sounds like it’s the same lie, not another lie. If it was something smaller I could say that Sabato didn’t care about say, something that could be interpreted as an ethnic slur but when there was a controversy just threw some fuel on the fire.

    That he might just outright lie is something that is believeable, but I’d like to see a link or something that he actually claimed to have witnessed that (or just heard about it?)

    I think such vandalism would be more sadism than racism, though.

    Sammy Finkelman (57e37d)

  264. Author Tony Schwartz, who co-authored “The Art of The Deal” and is a contributor to :”The Dangerous Case of Donald Trump, was on CNN to discuss Trump’s recent rash of Tweetrage at Lavar Ball. Schwartz tells us what we already know – that Trump hates black people (I would also include brown people, women and most other minorities).

    Wottasurprise.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  265. You aren’t changing any minds here, Mike K.

    I understand you are worried about America’s future, so am I, but I’m not convinced Trump can help because I don’t trust him. You disagree and that’s fine, but it’s not fine to call people you’ve known online for years “haters.” You know we care about America. You’ve known us better and for longer than you’ve known Trump.

    I don’t care what you think about Trump, but please understand that the bridges you are burning here can never be rebuilt.

    DRJ (15874d)

  266. Yes, the GOP is split between those who still seek comity with people who would send them to the wall, and others who are digging up their guns, …

    Then I guess it’s official that I can’t be a Republican, because I’m not in either group. I think we must choose leaders with character, principles, and consistent policies. Those are the leaders who will make the changes we need to succeed.

    DRJ (0280d9)

  267. Now that we know Republicans and Democrats are both lacking in character, principles and consistent policies, we can blame them both.

    DRJ (0280d9)

  268. I think we must choose leaders with character, principles

    First we need an electorate who has an interest in being informed so they can make wise choices. Greece had the same problem.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)


  269. 277.You aren’t changing any minds here, Mike K.

    Of course he isn’t, DRJ, the minds are set in stone. In order that minds are changed it requires one admit he was wrong and I don’t see that happening. I believe Mike K. is just expressing why he thinks you all give Trump and unfortunately his supporters also the brown end of the stick.

    Right above Comrade Ben! quoted some dude Schwartz saying Trump hates blacks, browns, women an “most” other minorities. A broad statement unsupported by fact yet it goes sailing by as if by magic. In reality Trump has employed and done business with hundreds of blacks, browns and women and many women are in leadership positions in his companies. I take note to the “and most other minorities” added as a catch-all after thought less an Inuit construe Trump doesn’t hate him and feels his victimhood somehow diminished by non inclusion on the list.

    But Trump’s doing just what he was hired for. Plus, he’s got the left going crazy for a year and they stull can’t figure out what went wrong. Just look at the comments by comrade Ben! as an example. He keeps churning the same ole sh!t week after week with no introspection, no analysis and no plans for the future. Just scream at the sky, do drive by trolling and call people bad names. That’s all they got and it’s because Trump makes them CRAZY. If we actually had a Republican Party capable of working together like they love to do with Democrats we would be mopping up the floor with all these clowns from Pelosi to Schumer and their commie progeny. But they’re too busy finding a way back to minority status to keep their beni’s.

    Basically, Mike K. and I agree on this: Republican and conservative Trump haters will elect the next Democrat and leftist president. Maybe they will get on the cover of GQ

    https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-AO_FICf4xeY/WhI237afm8I/AAAAAAABRjI/U7SMHg3tfG0L_dmgMB7b_ZvZbUBsBt-SwCLcBGAs/s1600/1_190m_ozhne7o7Tt1tzhdamo1_1280%2B%25281%2529.jpg

    Rev.Hoagie® (6bbda7)

  270. I think most people want to be informed but there is a lot of information and it’s hard to get a handle on it if you are busy with everyday things.

    DRJ (0280d9)

  271. That Some dude ghost wrote Trumps book, hoagie.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  272. Yes they are kept busy with three part time jobs Drj but it’s also apathy.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  273. And the democrats indicted delay Perry and Paxton, the first didn’t stand up on appeal but mission accomplished anyways, ask bob Mcdonnell or Conrad black or the firm of Arthur anderson

    narciso (d1f714)

  274. Tony Schwartz would have to admit to 30 years of fraudulent royalties, and return them but he went.

    narciso (d1f714)

  275. Money laundering prosecution is too complex even for lawyers. Plenty of room for bulloney.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_DeLay_campaign_finance_trial

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  276. Thanks for reminding the sleepwalkers who the opposition is, Mike K. They need a wake-up call every now and then.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  277. I doubt I can change any minds (Even if I was trying to) that think like thsi.

    Life’s too short to spend interacting with people who are (in JD’s memorable phrase) aggressively dishonest.

    Patterico

    I guess you mean me, Patrick, and I don;t know what I have ever done to seem “dishonest” to you.

    DRJ, you may take “haters” as pejorative but what I see from some of you seems beyond the rational evaluation and into the “Disgust” phase of reaction.

    You might even note This column and the huge changes in Saudi Arabia this month, but I doubt you can handle this comment.

    His general view seemed to be that with the backing of the Trump administration — he praised President Trump as “the right person at the right time” — the Saudis and their Arab allies were slowly building a coalition to stand up to Iran.

    I don’t think that fits the story you are telling yourselves.

    Now, I will leave you alone since I am not welcome here.

    Mike K (b3dd19)

  278. They put the “con” in conservatism.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  279. Basically, Mike K. and I agree on this: Republican and conservative Trump haters will elect the next Democrat and leftist president. Maybe they will get on the cover of GQ.

    Trump will be responsible for that, if it happens, plus he would love being on the cover of anything.

    DRJ (15874d)

  280. The events in Saudi Arabia are important, especially if they result from an attempt to end corruption instead of shifting the beneficiaries of corruption. We’ll see. But we know that what is happening is an authoritarian approach to government, not self-government. What’s troubling is how Trump and some of his supporters seem to want that model used here.

    DRJ (15874d)

  281. I voted for Trump to keep Texas blue. He has to earn my next vote.

    DRJ (15874d)

  282. Wow… Freudian slip there… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0QhaBW73Sk

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  283. Yes, it was. To keep Texas from turning blue.

    DRJ (15874d)

  284. It’s a risk, an exclusively bottom up movement like the arab winter is too easily coopted by SalAfi, something gerson wehner and Kristol didn’t realize.

    narciso (d1f714)

  285. But it wasn’t Freudian. Do you actually believe I want Texas to be run by Democrats?

    DRJ (15874d)

  286. Because was the original union and Tory color, and red the color of labour and Marxist upheaval till 2000.

    narciso (d1f714)

  287. I voted for Trump because he was the GOP nominee and I want Texas to be led by Republicans. This vote was hard for me. I want Trump to succeed far more than you can imagine, but I don’t think he has it in him.

    DRJ (15874d)

  288. The original meaning of Black Friday was very different than today’s, Haiku, but it fits politics.

    DRJ (15874d)

  289. Now, I will leave you alone since I am not welcome here.

    LOL

    Patterico (0170be)

  290. There is a very interesting story brewing in Calif about the primary challenge being made against Diane Feinstein by the California Senate President, Kevin De Leon.

    Feinstein is 84, was first elected in 1992, and is a stalwart in Calif. Dem politics, especially in the Bay Area.

    But Calif politics at the state level has become dominated by Hispanic Dems, with the center of gravity being very much in Southern California, and they very much control the state and the party right now.

    De Leon is now caught up in a sexual harassment scandal that is starting to engulf Sacramento, and the center of the storm is De Leon ally — AND ROOMMATE — Sen. Tony Mendoza. This comes on the heels of 100 State Capitol staffers signing a letter decrying pervasive sexual harassment in Sacramento a couple weeks or so after the Weinstein affair broke into the open.

    Then on Nov. 11, three of Mendoza’s office staff went to the appropriate person in the State Senate to complain about Mendoza on behalf of the young staffer he had targeted, and while in the meeting they were handed termination letters on the letterhead of Chairman of the Senate Rules Committee Chairman — who by rule in the State Senate is the Senate President — De Leon.

    De Leon claims he was unaware of the allegations against Mendoza, and the firing of the 3 complaining staffers was unrelated to their voicing of complaints against Mendoza.

    De Leon’s campaign is going on the offense now by claiming that Feinstein has had 25 years in the US Senate to put in place protections for females from work place harassment, but has failed to do so. Quite a bold move, but maybe the only play they have given what is swirling around him.

    So Feinstein is in real delicate position in how she responds to the Franken matter, as it could have a big impart on her primary challenge which is only 8 months away.

    shipwreckedcrew (56b591)

  291. Meangurlism.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  292. Mike K says:

    I guess you mean me, Patrick, and I don;t know what I have ever done to seem “dishonest” to you.

    Then allow me to explain.

    You said:

    This is far more important to you than the fact that the rape allegation is a forgery and revenge on him for ruling against her in a divorce case in 1999.

    He did not rule against her. He rubber stamped a mutually agreed-upon dismissal of the case that was in no way a loss for her.

    Did you ever retract this or apologize?

    You said:

    Plus, Moore’s wife says the WaPoo was offering money for stories like this.

    This allegation came from Gateway Pundit, sourced to an anonymous Twitter account that claimed at various times that he had earned two, three, or four Purple Hearts. The account deleted all its tweets when people started to question the inconsistencies. In the end it turned out that the Twitter account had stolen a dead Navy SEAL’s identity. Meanwhile Moore’s wife has posted a passel of easily disproved nonsense.

    Did you ever retract this or apologize?

    You said:

    The woman who is alleged to have been the 14 year old who “dated” Moore is a Hillary staffer.
    Setup by WaPoo.
    Sorry to see so many Reps join the lynching.

    I repeatedly told you that the 14-year-old was Leigh Corfman and that it was another woman who was, not a Hillary “staffer,” but someone who had done sign-language interpretation for some political campaigns including Hillary’s.

    Did you ever retract this or apologize?

    You come on here and repeat stuff from the fever swamps of the Internet, and when it is shown to be bullshit, you pretend you have not seen the refutation. Instead you just move on to the next bullshit from Hoft.

    Dishonest.

    P.S. You also say continually that you are leaving and always come back. Your flounces are literally laughable at this point.

    Patterico (0170be)

  293. That’s a large squirrel deleon let loose, but state house politics is a lot like wrangling mangy flea bitten cats.

    narciso (9f4736)

  294. Patterico:

    Meanwhile Moore’s wife has posted a passel of easily disproved nonsense.

    Sounds like that, but there are other things that don’t sound like nonsense and as nk pointed outm an innocent person never expectinga charge like that would ot be prepared with a defense –

    That’s besides what everybdy who checks (does not include National ZReview’s Rich Lowry) can see – Roy moore was never the District Attorney of Etowah County for instance and if he lied to BYN and otehrs she should have discovered that long ago, and to say he lied would be an important allegation.

    https://nypost.com/2017/11/23/no-more-easy-escapes-for-predator-pervs/

    Lowry even has the spelling “Etiwah” County which comes straight from what Gloria Allred put out – no checking. She misspelled it in two different ways. She also had Elowah County.

    Besides what you can figure out for yourself, there are things that came from hannah Ford of the Moore campaign dated November 20, 2017. Or were they disproven?

    https://www.facebook.com/JudgeRoyMoore/posts/704454039752830

    The points raised are:

    1. Although they are not sure, there was probably no entrance at the back of the parking lot, where BYN says she initially thought Roy Moore might drive there (to explain why she was not alarmed until he stopped the car, or maybe it’s to explain Moore’s escape plan for after the rape) because the back of the parking lot did not reach the street, but the back yards of people, and people parked on the sides and there wasn’t even enough room in the back to turn a car around.

    2. The dumpsters was not where she said it was. They were on the side of the building, not the back. and there was no space to park between the dumpsters and the building. Workers would step out the side door and throw garbage right in.

    3. Olde Hickory House never closed as early as 10 p.m. The Goodyear tire place net door closed at 10 p.m. and their employees came over there to eat. So the restaurant should not have been closed at 10 p.m. (she might have claiemd it closed at 10 pm because that would possibly comply with alabama laws for the employment of minors)

    4. The minimum age for workers there was 16. She claims she started working there before her 16th birthday. Well, she could have lied about her age or even used somebody else’s name, but she doesn’t say that. Could be what she says about starting work there when she was 15 years old is true, but it requires explanation.

    5. Some former workers at the restaurant say they don’t remember BYN. I don’t know if anyone has been found who does.

    6. Two former waitresses and two former customers (one of whom knew Roy Moore from the sourthouse) say they never saw Roy Moore there. And Beverly Young Nelson said he was there practically every night (for what must be understood to be at least a two months circa October to December 1977.)

    In particular Rhonda Ledbetter who says she worked there from 1977 to 1979, said she never noticed him and she would have noticed anyone wearing a suit, as he presumably was. I mean working in a courthouse all day and all. Also, she doesn’t remember Beverly Young Nelson as working there. (You know, I think the Social Security Administration has records of anyone who worked on the books, which BYN can obtain and release.)

    7. The wait staff would not have interacted with someone who stayed at the counter, where she says he sat, but he would have been served by the bartender or a short order cook.

    8. There wasn’t any place around the restaurant that was dark. (BYN claimed he parked in a dark, isolated spot) People and cars were always around. The restaurant had wrap-around porch, with lights, like a racker barrel place, and there were lights all around.

    This is a weak point:

    9. Another waitress says she worked there during the summer of 1977 and never saw either Beverly nelson or Roy Moore there, and she would have known a regular customer. Well, you could say that was before either of them was there.

    Breitbart had some things about Leigh Corfman. The strongest seems to be the allegation that the cross streets she gives for where Roy Moore picked her up were not around the corner from her mother’s house but a mile away and across a highway.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  295. 292. DRJ (15874d) — 11/24/2017 @ 10:31 am

    292.The events in Saudi Arabia are important, especially if they result from an attempt to end corruption instead of shifting the beneficiaries of corruption. We’ll see.

    It sunds alittle similar to what’s taking plaxe in China, where power is being centralized and people are also being purged on corruption grounds. In Saudi Arabia they may also be looking to confiscate a lot of money for budgetary reasons. It’s enough to matter and the money is needed, owing to the drop in the pricce of oil.

    By the way, Venezuela is also trying the corruption angle for purges. And come to think of it, so did Mugabe in Zimbabwe although maybe he was asserting other reasons for firing people. The purgees purged him instead, after possibly consulting China.

    But we know that what is happening is an authoritarian approach to government, not self-government. What’s troubling is how Trump and some of his supporters seem to want that model used here.

    trump doesn’t seem to care about human rights anywhere (college basketball players caught shoplifting don’t count) except in Burma and taht’s probably because tghe whole matter has not caught his attention.

    Bangladesh si inching toward forcing ro at least encouraging refugees to return. Myanmar would like that – they can kill witnesses and certainly get them away from attention.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  296. 306 Sammy Finkelman

    I agree 100% with your analysis. The accusers in the hit job on Moore have so many holes in their stories. This is clearly DNC promoted. It has come out this week how the Washington Post reporter Janell Ross gave and participated in strategy briefings at a DNC gathering in California. Ross was on a panel “was sandwiched by a talk with liberal billionaire George Soros and a message by Democratic senator Amy Klobuchar (Minn.) on Russian interference in the 2016 election” This whole Moore story was initiated by the Washington Post .

    I posted comment 206 yesterday which included some of the following: …the signed year book is clearly a forgery. At least 3 different hand lettering styles are present. Different inks. And her lawyer does not wish to hand over the yearbook to a neutral 3rd party to be analyzed.

    Also her lawyer Allred was interviewed on CNN and she stumbled badly. Even Blitzer of all people called her out & didn’t let her slide.

    Moore supposedly was carousing at the “the mall” and that the mall then “banned him”. And now the person who was the mall manager back then said that never happened.

    The mall manager from 1981-1996 came out and said Moore was never banned so far as he knows. The time frame isn’t exact, but it would seem that something like that would be common knowledge for some time. The media reported the mall worker’s interview as if it were fact over all the major networks, but it was hearsay.

    Barnes Boyle, who was manager of the Gadsden Mall from 1981 to 1996, to his knowledge Moore was not banned.

    “To my knowledge, he was not banned from the mall,” Boyle told the news station. “We did have written reports and things. But to my knowledge, he was not banned from the mall,” Boyle told WBRC in Birmingham, Ala.

    Most of the accusations were in the 1970s but Moore was prominent and if he was banned in the ’70s, Boyle would likely have still known.

    Hope everyone found good deals this Friday and no one got hurt.

    Where Eagles Dare (30c9de)

  297. Oddly it doesn’t appear to be an ethnic but a sectarian issue.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rakhine_people

    narciso (d1f714)

  298. @293. I voted for Trump to keep Texas[from turning] blue.

    Pffft. So you voted for a man who boasted about sexual assault on the Access Hollywood tape as a matter of pragmatics over principles. Yet you endless preach the need to embrace just the opposite. Your hypocrisy is showing.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  299. @299. I voted for Trump because he was the GOP nominee and I want Texas to be led by Republicans. This vote was hard for me. I want Trump to succeed far more than you can imagine, but I don’t think he has it in him.

    Shouldn’t be hard at all for someone rigorously advocating character and principles over pragmatism.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  300. It was hypocritical of me.

    DRJ (15874d)

  301. @312. DRJ, you’re honest; you got class.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  302. Patrick has said the last word so I will leave and I have deleted the bookmark, as I did last year. I won’t return.

    When I quit Althouse for a few months because of the nasty comments before the election, some other commenters asked me to return.

    Nobody here ever did and I am not “flouncing.”

    A parting word on Trump though, Maybe you should get out more .

    This is pretty much a bubble.

    Goodbye.

    Mike K (b3dd19)

  303. Mike K,

    I was once accused of flouncing when I got upset here, although by elissa and not by Patrick. It stung in a Mean Girl way at the time but now I think it’s funny. It takes a real talent to flounce on the internet!I

    Goodbye and I wish you and your family well.

    DRJ (15874d)

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