Patterico's Pontifications

8/16/2017

No, the Government Should Not Censor White Supremacist Views

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 9:00 am

An incident like the one in Charlottesville emboldens the folks who want to control your speech. Nobody wants to speak up for Nazis, of course. The speech police seize upon such an environment to suggest that, hey, what would be wrong with having government ban white supremacist speech? Thus we get hot takes like this: Matthew Walther’s piece at The Week titled Censor White Supremacy. After some head-scratching citations to writers as disparate as Stanley Fish and John Milton, Walther presents this wrong-headed peroration:

Which brings us to the recent decisions by Go Daddy and Google to deny the Daily Stormer, a neo-Nazi publication, a home on their web hosting platforms. I have yet to see anyone find fault with this decision even though realistically speaking it amounts to censorship. This is in itself a good thing, though few people have acknowledged it as such. At present it is easy to ignore the elephant in the room by saying that these are private companies free to make their own decisions about what viewpoints can be expressed on web servers that they own and control. But there are only so many web hosting services. Suppose no one was willing to offer these Hitler fanboys room to air their grievances with African-Americans and Jews on the internet — suppose that they could find no publisher willing to reproduce their pamphlets and no one willing to sell them a Xerox machine and paper to distribute them on their own?

Would it still be okay? Why is it reasonable to pretend that an action that is licit and even commendable when taken by a corporation that will soon be worth $1 trillion would be unjust if an ill-defined entity called “the state” undertook it? The world in which the government enjoys a monopoly on coercion and corporations are not state entities whose actions would not be possible without a vast infrastructure and legal apparatus in which they operate is a fantasy. The procedural question of who is responsible for the censorship is beside the point. The only relevant one is whether it is laudable.

I for one am happy that the Daily Stormer is gone. People who agree with me need to ask themselves why they would have found it upsetting if the Department of Justice had shut it down.

Look. I could launch into a long historical discussion about the founding fathers and the reasons for the passage of the First Amendment, but for now I’m just going to keep this simple. When someone tells you that, when it comes to whether the government should be authorized to shut down speech, the only relevant question is “whether [the speech] is laudable” — ask yourself: Who gets to decide that?

In Matthew Walther’s mind, of course, the answer is simple. Matthew Walther will decide for you what speech is laudable. That’s not how he would put it, of course. He would launch into a long dissertation about societal norms and what every right-thinking person believes. But boil it down, and the answer will be that Matthew Walther decides. Because coincidentally enough, whatever system Matthew Walther advocates for choosing what is laudable, Matthew Walther will find himself in agreement with the results of that system.

But when you put the government in charge of censoring speech, that’s not how it works. The government will decide for you what is laudable. If you put the Department of Justice in charge of determining what is laudable, they’re going to use their standards, Mr. Walther. Not yours. Theirs.

And government officials’ standards about what speech is “laudable” tend to revolve around whether that speech makes said government officials look good or bad.

That is how it has worked for, oh, about all of human history. They don’t care about racism, or social justice, or any of that crap, Mr. Walther. They care about themselves.

I don’t know if Matthew Walther has noticed, but the fella who chooses who heads up the Justice Department these days is not the most virulent opponent of Neo-Nazism the world has ever seen. The speech Donald Trump considers least laudable, actually, is the speech that criticizes him.

That’s the guy you want to empower to shut down speech, Matthew Walther? Really?

And if you’re a supporter of Trump, all you have to do is imagine Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama wielding the power Mr. Walther wants to give them. If that doesn’t frighten you, nothing will.

And, by the way, the references in Walther’s piece to an “ill-defined entity called ‘the state'” demonstrate Walther’s fundamental error about the critical distinction between the state and society at large. Because “the state” is actually a very simple entity to define in this context. The state is defined as the folks who get to put you in jail when you don’t do what they say.

Society can shun you. The state can send men with guns to your front door to drag you to a small room with a nasty toilet, where they lock you up and don’t give you the key to get out.

That is the difference between society and the state, Mr. Walther. And it is nothing to shrug at.

We need to be sure that our anger at racism and murderous Hitler-worshippers doesn’t turn us into sheep who surrender control over our speech to the federal government. Condemn white supremacist views, to be sure. Shun those who don’t condemn virulent racism all you want. Deny Nazis access to your privately held property. It’s your right as an American.

But don’t give the feds the power to decide whether to let you speak or not, depending on what the President of the United States happens to think is “laudable.”

That would be a huge mistake.

[Cross-posted at RedState and The Jury Talks Back.]

231 Responses to “No, the Government Should Not Censor White Supremacist Views”

  1. What I most want government employees to do is sit on their hands until they are dismissed from their jobs.

    Andy (11847a)

  2. Which was the point of Tucson, to dismiss the tea party thanks to sheriff dupniks incompetence

    narciso (d1f714)

  3. Matthew Walther apparently doesn’t think Donald Trump’s Justice Department would shut web sites down, but one run by Democrats, who are more creative in the development of legal theories, might.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  4. The Dialectic begins the journey back, so let’s tamp that urge to control one’s behavior with some cautionary tales. Yes, overreach is possible, but the alternative?

    Ben burn (05b387)

  5. There’s very little ‘anti’ about the so-called Antifa. They’re fascists straight up. They come wielding clubs, wearing helmets and body armor, equipped with Mace and ready to use unrestrained force to suppress an opposition’s right to assemble.

    Refusing the right to speak or to assemble in demonstration are key elements of fascism, the others are one-party totalitarian rule, and control of the economy.

    As abhorrent as organized racial hatred is, it has long been a part of the American experience. To wish otherwise is compassionate, to pretend otherwise is to risk repetition of the ‘peculiar institution.’

    Monuments to Confederate soldiers are obviously not celebrations of slavery, no matter how many ignorant virtue signaling numbskuls persuade themselves to the contrary.

    Similarly, monuments to Union soilders are not celebrations of the violent subjugation of agriculture by industry. Nor are they a rebuke to Americans more loyal to their state than to an overreaching Federal government.

    The holocaust museum is a timely example. No one is calling for its destruction based on the claim it celebrates Hitler’s ‘final solution.’

    Monuments are reminders, gifts from the past to the present, they warn of the consequences of human error, the tragedy of heedless pride. Monuments encourage us to calm down, take a few deep breaths, think twice, and reject popular passions for the false panacea they represent.

    ropelight (072508)

  6. There are circumstances when it is appropriate for the state to silence or censor anti-social and counter-revolutionary elements and there are circumstances when such a policy would be short-sighted and counter-productive.

    It would be appropriate if the seditionists enjoyed significant credibility with a broad section of society and there was a danger that they would sway the masses into action against the government. For example, CNN, ABC, CBS, NBC, MSNBC, The Washington Post, The New York Times, The Los Angeles Times. Those organizations do represent a real danger to the government of President Trump and it would be the prudent course to censor them or shut them down altogether.

    However, it would be short-sighted and counterproductive to silence the small fringe groups since they do not seem capable of gaining significant popular support. It would drive them underground and make it harder to identify them and arrest them for their anti-social and subversive activities. It would be the more economical course of action to let them hang themselves out of their own mouths.

    nk (dbc370)

  7. maybe we can ask the government to just shut them down for a week

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  8. yes, about these ‘antifascists’

    https://twitter.com/Bencjacobs/status/897581891443974144

    narciso (d1f714)

  9. calling it “crashing” seems kinda tendentious

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  10. Monuments to Confederate soldiers are obviously not celebrations of slavery, no matter how many ignorant virtue signaling numbskuls persuade themselves to the contrary.

    The were built as celebrations of white supremacy. Most of the confederate monuments were built during Jim Crow and the resurgence of the KKK, and also during the civil rights era.

    https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/8/15/16153220/trump-confederate-statues

    Davethulhu (fab944)

  11. They were built when the South could finally afford to build them, after the devastation of the war and Reconstruction (which Reconstruction is better called looting).

    nk (dbc370)

  12. i just hope nobody involved in this on either side is gonna need a goddamn cake

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  13. The attachment to the Confederate flag by untoward rebel sympathizers should be enough to dissuade from adoration. Claims of one-issue historians can see it in a museum.

    Ben burn (4190e4)

  14. I for one am happy that the Daily Stormer is gone.

    Thing is, the Daily Stormer is not gone, it is merely forced underground, where the insanity feeds upon itself without the disinfectant of sunlight.

    Is Mr.Walther really that stupid??

    Patricia (5fc097)

  15. Monuments are reminders, gifts from the past to the present, they warn of the consequences of human error, the tragedy of heedless pride. Monuments encourage us to calm down, take a few deep breaths, think twice, and reject popular passions for the false panacea they represent.
    ropelight (072508)

    Well said! This is what some AfAm people said, in so many words, a few weeks ago about a Confederate statue they were protecting.

    Patricia (5fc097)

  16. They were built when the South could finally afford to build them, after the devastation of the war and Reconstruction (which Reconstruction is better called looting).

    My eyes just rolled up in my head so hard I think I sprained them.

    Davethulhu (fab944)

  17. yes, he is that’s why he writes for the weak. the left pretend themselves to be soft and
    cuddlly like mogwai, but they turn into gremlins like the baader and the brigatte,

    narciso (d1f714)

  18. On topic to Patterico’s post: He’s absolutely correct. It’s a tiny step between banning speech and making speech illegal (and punishable by law).

    Davethulhu (fab944)

  19. it was more like that interregnum, between the greek occupation, and the resumption of the civilan govts under tsaldaris,

    narciso (d1f714)

  20. I have been engaged in arguments in a couple of places online saying much the same thing.
    Defending the constitutional rights of the Neo-Nazi to speak, assemble peaceably, to petition the local (or even Federal) government for a redress of grievances. Because if they can be denied those rights, there is no logical reasoning that prevents the same thing from happening to me.

    The Left is now trying to tie all Republicans, all conservatives to them. This is being done to shame, to silence, to constrain opposition to them to what they have decided is acceptable speech. Neo-Nazis and white supremacists hate the Constitution. They are my enemy. But the same is true of Antifa. Both want to take away my rights. When I defend the rights of neo-Nazis to speak (and also the right of Antifa to speak), it is my own rights I am defending.

    Slippery slope argument? In form, yes. But it’s a valid argument. Once one group’s constitutional rights are taken away, there’s nothing to prevent it from happened again to others.

    Nothing.

    Evan Carter (550dba)

  21. 12, so OK then, how would you handle the period with regard to the defeated southern terrtores immediately after the war? Are you a Santo Domingo/Liberianist with regard to the freedman? I’m presuming your DNA was probably dispersed pretty far away from the scene at that point in history (my “F”s to give are rather limited but I am sensitive to the slippery slope issue in that Mexico and the Confederacy were fought by many of the same heads 15-19 years apart).

    urbanleftbehind (53100b)

  22. ropelight, they may have a “holocaust museum,” but no monument of Hitler himself.
    Monuments of people are created for adoration, not shame. Duh. See the difference?

    Tillman (a95660)

  23. I do believe that I have never read anything of Mr. P.’s with which I have agreed so wholeheartedly and completely.

    Q! (267694)

  24. James Holman writes a blog everyday for the WaPo, which goes out in a mass email to anyone who subscribes. Its a perfect embodiment of the liberal media lens on the events of the day. He never fails to espouse the left-wing media’s perspective on whatever is newsworthy.

    He summarized Trump’s statements yesterday as simply “moral equivalency” between Nazis and groups who protest Nazis.

    In his view, the “counter-protesters” at the incident on Sunday were no different than normal US citizens.

    He should watch the videos posted over at Powerline blog showing the Antifa group wearing all black, with shields, masks, and clubs.

    Same group responsible for riots in Seattle, Portland, and Berkeley.

    shipwreckedcrew (56b591)

  25. yes, Nazis come from that Germanic deviation into philosophies like hegel and comte, (well he wwas French but still) have to deny inalienable rights, this involves political economy, list, wagne and smoller, but also social relations, D’Souza points out how the Nazis borrowed the latter framework when crafting the Nuremberg laws, the black bloc has roots in the old left, particularly the
    Frankfurt school, whose key proponents were adorno, (from whence the typology of the authoritatian personality comes from) and Herbert Marcuse, the latter was a student of Heidegger, the Nazi gather of deconstruction,

    narciso (d1f714)

  26. Marcuse came up with the concept of repressive tolerance, properly understood, this was why thre free speech movement at Berkeley, was nothing of the sort,

    narciso (d1f714)

  27. Love the post Patrick.

    But, I would differ with the point that Gov’t officials only care about themselves.

    IMO, the idea of Gov’t sanctioned or punished speech would be detrimental for the same reason you identify with regard to Walther — Gov’t officials will likely determine speech to be “laudable” which fits with their world view, and will determine as speech deemed to be “detrimental” that which departs from their world view.

    The biases of individuals in the government is no more insidious than the biases of people outside the government — but both are biases nonetheless.

    But I absolutely agree with the point that condemnation of offensive speech is a matter for the public square, not the courtroom.

    shipwreckedcrew (56b591)

  28. narciso, you don’t know philosophy. Nietzsche is often cited as having an influence on Nazis, but you don’t even know that. Blow that smoke elsewhere.

    Tillman (a95660)

  29. see if this doesn’t sound familiar,

    http://www.marcuse.org/herbert/pubs/60spubs/65repressivetolerance.htm

    allan bloom was one of the first to chronicle the noxious impact of anti liberty philosophy on American intellectualism, he noted particularly the Frankfurt school

    narciso (d1f714)

  30. the nature of American progressive, begins at that starting line, so Wilson, the closest thing yo an American malan, (the founder of apartheid) who imbibed german philosophy, dismisses the import of the founding, because it prevents the accession of positive rights, I’m summarizing Levin’s argmentt

    narciso (d1f714)

  31. 29..my fault. I set him off with the emotionally-charged mention of Hegels Dialectic. His Snapchat research followed a goat.

    Ben burn (4d8860)

  32. now this latter interpretation, is based on karl popper’s view of hegel, but the same point optaina, marx who piggy backed off hegel, with a paper thin sketch of 19th industrial relations, comes to the wrong conclusion as well,

    narciso (d1f714)

  33. Germany today:

    “Public Holocaust denial is also prohibited and may be severely punished with up to five years in prison.[5] A decision of a court that assumes that a publication is violating another person’s personal rights may also lead to censoring (a newspaper for example can be forced not to publish private pictures).

    One official censoring body in Germany is the Bundesprüfstelle für jugendgefährdende Medien (Federal Review Board for Media Harmful to Minors). Although not de jure outlawed, media listed by this board may be purchased by adults only, and the exhibition (for sale) is usually also prohibited. While this indexing can grant publicity to some works, it is often tried to prevent in order to make the media available to a wider audience. Common methods for such a prevention include the removal of certain content (e.g., Nazi symbols) or the reduction of violent scenes in movies and games.”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_Germany

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  34. @34 DCSCA, see yonder.

    Q! (267694)

  35. Yes, ulb, that was the reason, to prevent Confederate resurgence, Sherman said so, but was the South devastated or not?

    nk (dbc370)

  36. @35. LOLOLOLOL That’s one way to stop bad press.

    “Oh yeah?! I’ll show ‘ya– I’ll quit you!!”

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  37. what is striking is she can’t recognize the enemy right in front of her,

    http://www.timesofisrael.com/british-pm-says-no-equivalence-between-fascists-and-their-opponents/

    narciso (d1f714)

  38. Am going to The House of Paul Revere one last time before govna baker has it burned

    mg (31009b)

  39. drowning us with dreck has the same purpose,

    https://spectator.org/the-endless-hazing-of-trump-by-sanctimonious-frauds/

    narciso (d1f714)

  40. 14.The attachment to the Confederate flag by untoward rebel sympathizers should be enough to dissuade from adoration. Claims of one-issue historians can see it in a museum.
    Ben burn (4190e4) — 8/16/2017 @ 11:07 am

    Now if we can get the same sentiment about communist flags and Che T-shirts from you we can all agree.

    23.ropelight, they may have a “holocaust museum,” but no monument of Hitler himself.
    Monuments of people are created for adoration, not shame. Duh. See the difference?
    Tillman (a95660) — 8/16/2017 @ 11:37 am

    Monuments if people are created for all kinds of reasons not just adoration. It’s not a religious relic. And here’s a statue of Lenin in Seattle. He was a communist mass murderer like Hitler. Feel the *adoration* of the Seattle leftists?

    https://kakistocracyblog.files.wordpress.com/2017/08/img_0494.jpg?w=700&h=525

    Rev.Hoagie® (630eca)

  41. What ‘crash? Both sides: hysteria. Desperate for reciprocity.

    http://dailycaller.com/2017/08/16/antifa-protesters-crash-heather-heyers-funeral/

    Ben burn (4d8860)

  42. Teri is damned if she does damned if she does not, the Independent was bitching that she didn’t call out Trump by name.

    urbanleftbehind (53100b)

  43. 42, they went full Phelps, pity.

    urbanleftbehind (53100b)

  44. I’m sure y’all would fight for John Brown monuments. It’s about the gLiberty.

    Ben burn (4d8860)

  45. The left, the media, the deep/dark state and all the usual suspects are just using a protest by a relatively small hand full of Nazi’s and/or white supremacists to paint ALL of us who are to the right of Maxine Waters as racists, bigots and separatists.

    Why don’t they ever go ape crap over BLM or NBPP, or even antifa but are ranting like crazy people about a few friggin’ Nazi’s. Who cares about Nazi’s? Do they affect policy? No! Do Leftists affect policy? Yes! So who’s more of an affliction upon the body politic?

    Rev.Hoagie® (630eca)

  46. “communist flags and Che T-shirts ”

    Are they municipal or state sanctioned/endorsed edifices? Or are they personal.property?

    Ben burn (4d8860)

  47. @35. It doesn’t register with The Donald that confederate monuments honor traitors to the United States.

    Try monuments to losers.

    That might just get through.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  48. GLIBERTARIAN
    (Sometimes “Glibbertarian”) From GLIB + libERTARIAN. A well-off or self-made individual who offers easy nostrums for complicated social and economic problems, usually centered around such premises as “A government program never helped anyone,” or “Government is the cause of, not the answer to, America’s problems.”

    A glibertarian response is frequently preceded by “Oh, just let this happen” or “Oh, all we need to do is . . . ” Sometimes these statements elucidate libertarian principles, if a bit superficially, but more often invoke knee-jerk responses that offer snappy, painless solutions from anything but government.
    “We have to get manufacturing back into this country.”

    “Oh, just let the magic of the market take care of that.”

    “What are we to do about illegal immigration?”

    “Oh, all we need to do is get these folks onto a market-driven salary and off all these government programs like public schools and health care.”

    sarcastically: “Where on earth did you get all these wonderful solutions?”

    “Oh, I’m a self-made man.”

    Original speaker sotto voce “A Glibertarian worships his own maker.”

    Ben burn (4d8860)

  49. I have a bumper sticker that says. your right you should never forget that you LOST!

    john lewiston (1aa8eb)

  50. i wanna see the Stone Mountain one before the taliban blow it up

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  51. Then you’ve got others, less well off, seamlessly voting against their own interests? I’d say it was self-sacrifice if I didn’t know better.

    Ben burn (4d8860)

  52. @46 Hoagie, Hoagie, Hoagie! Always good for a chuckle, you are. The left, the media, the deep/dark state and all the usual suspects … You forget in your bountiful Hoagieness, to include (e.g.,) the dark state … and … usual subjects which are (e.g.) the British PM, and the dozens of American Business Leaders of the Presidential Advisory Boards who found themselves forced to resign (and/or disband the Boards entirely), because His Greatness’ response(s) to Charlottesville was so blind, deaf and unremittingly vile as to cause them to throw up — to a man — in their respective mouths.

    You are a character! (Never change, dearheart, never ever ever change!)

    Q! (267694)

  53. Nobody wants to speak up for Nazis, of course.

    Remaining mute talking ’em down isn’t particularly constructive, either.

    Every day key and support staff stay on the job at the WH — Kelly, McMasters etc., sullies their integrity further as well as the legacy of past service and reveals a hollow content to their characters. ‘Country first’ don’t cut it when you’re repeatedly undercut and made ineffective.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  54. People like Kelley want to serve. They didn’t get where they are by quitting. But staying is quite damaging.

    Ben burn (4d8860)

  55. @55. Rommel learned that the hard way.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  56. Owing go community standards, people could erect their own phallus in the front yard, pole a rebel flag on their dually bumper and give a full-throated rebel yell. It’s their life to live.

    Ben burn (4d8860)

  57. Many German military made the decision to risk the ultimate sacrifice, but Rommel was a neverHitler who tried to serve Germany, but not Adolph. He failed to thread that needle.

    Ben burn (4d8860)

  58. Monuments if people are created for all kinds of reasons not just adoration. It’s not a religious relic. And here’s a statue of Lenin in Seattle. He was a communist mass murderer like Hitler. Feel the *adoration* of the Seattle leftists?

    https://kakistocracyblog.files.wordpress.com/2017/08/img_0494.jpg?w=700&h=525

    Ironically, the Lenin statue is private property. As such, it doesn’t represent a participation trophy for American traitors.

    Davethulhu (fab944)

  59. *state sponsored participation trophy

    Davethulhu (fab944)

  60. am waiting for the first ben burn bro or some dick head from sca telling me to take my flag down

    mg (31009b)

  61. Nobody is going to police your dirty underwear, mg.

    Ben burn (4d8860)

  62. @58. You mean, he was a loser?! 😉

    VP Pence stand by the President and stands by his words.

    Indiana born-and-bred.

    “New Ajax, laundry detergent, is whiter than white!” – Ajax knight, detergent ad, 1965

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  63. I’m curious about the new habit of calling Confederate statues “participation trophies”. Logically, one could say the same about the Viet Nam Memorial.

    Maybe it’s just a case of people being deliberately nasty instead of arguing calmly and dispassionately.

    Chuck Bartowski (bc1c71)

  64. Pence is heartbroken.

    Same face as orgasmic prayer.

    Ben burn (4d8860)

  65. skunk are actually very sweet and docile animals by nature and certainly not bitey or scratchy

    they don’t even like to spray unless they really have to cause of it takes them awhile to make more spray spray

    the spray instinct usually just kicks in if something charges at them (like a barkydog)

    if this instinct isn’t triggered, what the skunk will do is stompy stomp with his front paws to let you know he’s uncomfortable with this situation

    so keep an eye on them paws when you dealing with skunk

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  66. #64

    The Viet Nam Memorial commemorates the dead rather than glorifying the leaders. If the memorial was a statue of Robert McNamara, you’d have a point.

    Davethulhu (fab944)

  67. “. If the memorial was a statue of Robert McNamara, you’d have a point.”

    Allen Dulles..

    Ben burn (4d8860)

  68. The bastard child known as Northwest Indiana or the “Region” is kind of like Chicago’s Jersey.

    urbanleftbehind (53100b)

  69. alora smells better than skunk, happyfeet.
    need some?

    mg (31009b)

  70. @11 happyfeet

    Undocumented mourners.

    Pinandpuller (975b5d)

  71. Pence would be much more effective at the Republican congressional agenda. They just want a co-opted signer, not a supervisor.

    But the war on unbaptized heathens will ramp up.

    Ben burn (4d8860)

  72. @67. If the memorial was a statue of Robert McNamara, you’d have a point.

    There’s a memorial to MacNamara on nearly every street in America. We call the fire hydrants and America’s dogs routinely lift a limb to salute him, then decorate ’em several times a day.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  73. “No Free Speech for Fascists!”

    Ok, we’ll start by arresting YOU, you lefty fascist swine.

    C. S. P. Schofield (99bd37)

  74. Who said no free speech for fascists?

    Ben burn (4d8860)

  75. Just another leftie idiot being cute with definitions. It’s a go-to move by Progressives to fool people by changing the plain meaning of words. This is but the latest example.

    It is entirely frustrating to me that the Antifa/BLM agitators and rioters do their thang across the country and are never called on being violent without first having been attacked themselves. It is entirely unclear who started the violence in C’ville, but the group which is known to have done so all over and recently is presumed not to be the one which escalated a lawful assembly into the murderous riot which ensued. Madness.

    Also, I will begin to refer to law enforcement agencies who refuse to do their damn jobs and keep the peace as Islamic. Just as the “Religion of Peace” is no such thing, neither are the alleged peacekeepers directed by feckless politicians like McAuliffe.

    Ed from SFV (3400a5)

  76. “It’s a go-to move by Progressives to fool people by changing the plain meaning of words..”

    That’s YUGE!

    Ben burn (4d8860)

  77. Margaret Sanger must have a statue in Cambridge. meet you there ben burn bro

    mg (31009b)

  78. DAE remember the footage of newly minted VP Al Gore walking through Monticello? He looks up at busts of some of the Founding Fathers: “Who are these people?” Clinton’s look of disgust was priceless.

    I just watched it again. “The one on the right is George Washington.”

    Pinandpuller (975b5d)

  79. If you do not support the right of repugnant people to make repugnant speech you do not support the right to free speech in the slightest. There is no grey here.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  80. @64 Chuck Bartowski

    Wouldn’t the left call Grant et al fascist baby killers?

    Pinandpuller (975b5d)

  81. coexist sticker on your left bumper resist on your right, ben burn bro?

    mg (31009b)

  82. 81.If you do not support the right of repugnant people to make repugnant speech you do not support the right to free speech in the slightest. There is no grey here.

    Well, if not grey, perhaps a little smokey: the ol’adage of ‘don’t shout “fire” in a crowded theatre’ comes to mind– you may say you have the right, but when said, it can be deadly wrong.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  83. @66 happyfeet

    You don’t know how right you are.

    I have two baby skunks running around my place. I used to have zero tolerance for vermin but the worst they’ve done so far is eat some eggs so I didn’t kill them.

    I tried to make friends with one when it was newly weaned. It did the stompy stompy. I gave it some cat food. My neighbor offered to de scent one if I caught it. I think the key is to cut the red wire.

    Pinandpuller (975b5d)

  84. yes yes and if you stand still they can’t see you it’s like you have superpowers

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  85. The thing about Go Daddy and Google denying the Daily Stormer access to their web platforms is that its readers sense inherent acknowledgment from the Nutzi in the Oval Office and may very well feel that’s more than a fair trade-off.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  86. DCSCA

    Can you yell fire at a crowded Great White concert?

    Pinandpuller (975b5d)

  87. DCSCA

    If Trump had a big ship would you call that his Yahtzee?

    Pinandpuller (975b5d)

  88. thank you Mr. mg! I’m stocked up though

    i saw they were discontinuing pino and almost got some but I’m not opening new ones right now cause I’m packing the place up actually for a move in spring

    staying in chicago… just want a smaller place so i get less visits plus i think i’m allergic to this place – it has a mold issue downstairs in the garden units

    plus i want a balcony for my turts

    plus i don’t go into the office very much no mores so i can get a better place for less money further off the train lines

    plus my guest bed i bought for my friend F when we moved him to chicago from LA and he’s just keeping it here cause his building has an issue with vermin (bed bugs) and he’s about to get a new place where he can use it (no vermin), so the timing’s all working out nicely

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  89. @89. No.

    But he would.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  90. Pin: Trumps yachet belonged to Khashoggi and changing it’s name could be the source of all our bad luck.
    http://www.superyachtfan.com/donald_trump.html

    Ben burn (4d8860)

  91. Great post, Patterico. I have a few quibbles, in that you do not go far enough.

    To begin with, Walther’s argument is:

    1) Government is prevented by the 1st Amendment from censoring
    2) There are no restrictions on censorship by private companies
    3) Private companies have far more control in certain areas than the government ever did.
    4) Therefore, it should be OK now for government to censor.

    There is another resolution to this:

    4) Therefore private companies sometimes act as government and the 1st Amendment must be applied to them as well when they do so.

    We see all kinds of incorporation of this type:

    * Druggists must supply abortifacients to curstomers who want them, regardless of their personal beliefs.

    * The Catholic Church may not require lay employees to abide by Catholic ethics (and in fact, the ethics established by the state control).

    * Wedding cakes for SSM.

    * In general the Establishment Clause has been completely incorporated against private employers, as has the 14th Amendment.

    Why shouldn’t speech by employees within the workplace be protected?

    Why shouldn’t speech by employees, purely in their personal lives, be protected?

    Kevin M (752a26)

  92. 40 crew? Pedicure orderlies run amok!

    Ben burn (4d8860)

  93. 88, I often wonder if any victims of the Great White fire cracked wise about the E2 nightclub stampede 3 nights earlier.

    urbanleftbehind (53100b)

  94. 94, its Rawbin Laytch!

    urbanleftbehind (53100b)

  95. i like it how that one guy said it Mr. M

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  96. Quelled surprise:
    nypost.com/2017/05/26/tim-kaines-kid-hit-with-criminal-charges-after-disrupting-pro-trump-rally

    Now Spencer is a uva grad and in graduate school at the time of the duke lacrosse matter

    narciso (d1f714)

  97. “We need to be sure that our anger at racism and murderous Hitler-worshippers doesn’t turn us into sheep who surrender control over our speech to the federal government. Condemn white supremacist views, to be sure. Shun those who don’t condemn virulent racism all you want. Deny Nazis access to your privately held property. It’s your right as an American.

    But don’t give the feds the power to decide whether to let you speak or not, depending on what the President of the United States happens to think is “laudable.”

    That would be a huge mistake.”

    Amen. In the battle between liberty and tyranny – tyranny is easy, liberty is hard. Those who would take your liberty are on the wrong side.

    crazy (11d38b)

  98. My tribe tries to live without rancor, but admits it’s a challenge these days.*

    i haven’t had rancor since that crazy stalker chick at work was off her meds like almost three years ago

    rancor’s no good

    that’s why I admire President Trump’s equanimity

    but then he’s a very good leader

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  99. Trump Princess acquired for the bargain of $25 m. No doubt the crew was whittled down for budget. Captain doubles as swabby.

    Ben burn (4d8860)

  100. I wish he was a good teleprompter ‘reader’.

    That glazed look disturbs.

    Ben burn (4d8860)

  101. Amen. In the battle between liberty and tyranny – tyranny is easy, liberty is hard. Those who would take your liberty are on the wrong side.
    crazy (11d38b) — 8/16/2017 @ 4:11 pm

    I believe those who would take your Liberty are on both sides.

    Rev.Hoagie® (630eca)

  102. you know who seems like a big pervy white supremacist is fbi turdboy Robert Mueller

    he hasn’t hired any black people for his witch hunt at all!

    this is because he’s prejudice on black people

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  103. Skunks have rabies and they smell bad even when they don’t spray and they’re black and white and dig up your lawn and that makes it hard to tell them apart from Antifa.

    nk (dbc370)

  104. Rev. Hoagie, I hear you. Wouldn’t you say that puts them on the wrong side?

    crazy (11d38b)

  105. skunk rabies is good rabies though

    people hardly ever die from skunk rabies

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  106. 105.Skunks have rabies and they smell bad even when they don’t spray and they’re black and white and dig up your lawn and that makes it hard to tell them apart from Antifa.

    “Ooo-la-la. I would love to smell you.”– Pepe Le Pew [Mel Blanc] Warner Bros.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1mK9En8NvE

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  107. Southern Poverty Law Center

    On Monday, August 14, the Daily Caller very quietly removed white nationalist Jason Kessler’s contributions to the publication after the violence and chaos in Charlottesville. The white nationalist “Unite the Right” rally was organized by Kessler.

    But the white nationalist problem at Tucker Carlson’s Daily Caller, a conservative political outlet launched in 2010 as a “response” to the Huffington Post, is bigger than just Kessler. Throughout the 2016 election and since, the Daily Caller has not only published the work of white nationalists, but some of its writers have routinely whitewashed the Alt-Right, while one editor there is an associate of key Alt-Right figures. Two Daily Caller contributors, including a senior investigative reporter, were recently announced as speakers at the upcoming white nationalist H.L. Mencken Club conference organized by Paul Gottfried, a godfather of the Alt-Right.

    Ben burn (4d8860)

  108. 106.Rev. Hoagie, I hear you. Wouldn’t you say that puts them on the wrong side?
    crazy (11d38b) — 8/16/2017 @ 4:31 pm

    Yes, but unfortunately right now we’re surrounded. The media, especially CNN, is doing its best to paint everyone to the right of Stalin Nazis. Basically anyone who voted for PDT is now a Nazi.
    Is that a step up from being a racist, bigoted, xenophobic, Islamophobic, homophobe?

    Be a good Marxist or you’re an evil racist now. (Thanks, progressives!!)

    Rev.Hoagie® (630eca)

  109. We got Storm Trooper cells.

    Ben burn (4d8860)

  110. The spec, which marked the family research council fir death, which collaborated with hams fangirl Linda sarsour that denied Hirst alis fgm, those folk. Now interestingly kessler was occupy as late as last year and he was a for CNN cintributir.

    narciso (d1f714)

  111. lol Tucker’s been getting his white supremer on

    i bet his Fox News friends find that very admirable and special

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  112. you know where white supremers shop for value?

    that’s right they go to Walmart

    Walmart has tiki torches on sale this week plus you can get grape jelly! It’s good on toast – white supremers love their toast – you don’t wanna get between a white supremer and a toast what they just got out of the toaster and slathered up real good with a butter-like product from a tub and some good ole grape jelly from walmart!

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  113. Security detail for the Charnazis composed of Iraq war vets.

    Wtf were they fighting for?

    Ben burn (4d8860)

  114. looks like Adam Swart’s gonna be famous for recruiting Terry McAuliffe’s crowds in Charlottsville

    i wonder if Adam recruited that girl Heather

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  115. Rev. Hoagie. We may be surrounded, but they’re on the wrong side of history. The harder they push the more the mask slips.

    crazy (11d38b)

  116. *Charlottesville* i mean

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  117. @116. Wtf were they fighting for?

    The white to bear arms.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  118. Neo-Nazis are scum. Fascist leftwingers and neo-Marxists – especially violent ones like Antifa – are the scum of the scum. Until their fans in the media and the Democrat herd can find it within themselves to call it what it is, they’ll have no standing… either morally or ethically… to be worth listening to.

    Colonel Haiku (470cbb)

  119. “Definitions change. Principles Do Not and Should Not change.”

    Colonel Haiku (470cbb)

  120. Neo-nazis are gum.

    Leftists are Double-mint gum

    Ben burn (4d8860)

  121. Colonel: I’m busting you to pfc.

    Ben burn (4d8860)

  122. And the Government shouldn’t censor Calypso Louie Farrakhan and his followers speech or views either.

    Colonel Haiku (470cbb)

  123. I guess that s why tucker had fast aims furious Benghazi and Sanford right, whereas as every other outlet got it wring.

    narciso (d1f714)

  124. #117, happy, in addition to providing ‘Crowds on Demand’ does Adam Swart also offer the services of ‘Agents Provocateur’ to help make sure festivities stick to the script?

    ropelight (072508)

  125. oops no the whole Adam thing tracks back to Zero Hedge and they completely screwed up the story

    so ignore #117

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  126. I dont doubt it pikachu , just another brand of astroturf, found so e new vittles while you were away from here.

    narciso (d1f714)

  127. yes yes there’s a lot of moby action and astro turf to talk about in charlottesville the whole thing seems super phony and contrived

    but some idiot at ZH mixed it up with Charlotte NC

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  128. new vittles?

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  129. Apologies to BOC…

    Cities Aflame With Rock ‘n Roll Fascist ‘Holes

    Their hearts are black, and souls are cold
    Logic and speech drip with toxic mold
    Call ’em out they start to cry
    Their morals melt, then bloodshot eyes

    Oh, let bad burns, let bad burns start to roll
    Cities aflame with fascist ‘holes

    Piss bags and feces, forbidden by law
    Ball bats and clubs, you know what you saw
    Cities aflame with fascists ‘holes
    McCauliffe will plan it, the cops lose control

    Oh, let bad burns, let bad burns start to roll
    Cities aflame with fascist ‘holes

    Colonel Haiku (470cbb)

  130. Some new bodega between pico and El segundo
    http://www.breitbart.com/2nd-amendment/2017/08/16/piers-morgan-time-limit-second-first-amendments

    Why we call hi. Musket Morgan.

    narciso (d1f714)

  131. i’d rather shop at a bodega than set foot in a hateful racist walmart

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  132. In Chicago, Walmarts are bodegas. Except the one down by Clark and Diversey which is a boutique.

    nk (dbc370)

  133. i haven’t been to one here yet i was gonna go but not anymore

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  134. Margaret Sanger must have a statue in Cambridge. meet you there ben burn bro

    The KKK I think murdered about 4,000 blacks and whites before 1965.

    Planned Parenthood has killed about 20 million black children since Roe v Wade, with funding and applause from the Democratic Party.

    I’m waiting for BLM to do the math.

    harkin (34bcc6)

  135. BLM does not do math because it does not need to. When they shop with the EBT card, the receipt prints out the balance remaining.

    nk (dbc370)

  136. @137. And the Nazis killed 60 million in Europe.

    Thanks for playing, Comrade!

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  137. Somelives matter,yes they were almost entirely a white house initiative, with fuel from crumple Julian public relations

    narciso (d1f714)

  138. Hitler read eugenicist pamphlets while at lansbergh prison, just like he had read Henry fords the international jew, which was inspired by the turn of the century okrana created protocols of Zion fraud.

    narciso (d1f714)

  139. these pansy military cupcakes really need to learn to suck it up and stop being so whiny

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  140. Let’s make racism a felony and send them all to jail since the MSM has virtually abrogated the constitution.

    There should be plenty of empty cells due the large scale incarceration reduction for all other non-racial crimes.

    But if that takes too long with overloaded courts, then anyone who openly makes racist statements or associates with any group known to be racist may be executed on the spot by bat wielding, stone throwing masked members of Antifa or at least have their homes and work places vandalized and children terrorized.

    Charlottesville can serve as an inspiration and a go-by for future action.

    Any racist who loses his mind while being attacked and kills any Antifa will be drawn and quartered.

    william elbel (647cbe)

  141. Yes I don’t think butcoin will fix this:
    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-venezuela-animals-idUSKCN1AW2NN

    narciso (d1f714)

  142. @144. these pansy military cupcakes really need to learn to suck it up and stop being so whiny

    And now for something completely different: like, say, precision drilling!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25Qhbdijv5Y

    Squad! Camp-it-up!

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  143. @149. More importantly, Craig confirms on Colbert he’s back as Bond. James Bond.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  144. I though they has written him out ala George lazemby in the last one.

    narciso (d1f714)

  145. BTW, unless they are actively shutting down DNS references and blocking links, I don’t see how they stop someone from hosting a web site. Linux is free, computers are nearly free. There are probably some racist Linux grunts. All you need is a place to hook it in. There must be some place that doesn’t care.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  146. @151. Nope- he’s back in the saddle again.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  147. it’s important to do as many james bond movies as you can when Sony is in a weak bargaining position

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  148. Let’s make racism a felony…

    Let’s start foaming at the mouth and make fun of it instead:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VSTzGwkMiM&t=198s

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  149. Except for Spider-Man and baby driver they have laid a pterodactyl and we have the remake of jumanji and the Mark felt film tonloom forward to, yikes.

    narciso (d1f714)

  150. To look forward to, it’s not as bad as when they released the lone ranger and white house down but close.

    narciso (d1f714)

  151. @156. Sony. No baloney.

    Just spam.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  152. Could you imagine the mayhem and churning, had Craig said, “no I will not be reurning…it was time”, and then special unannounced guest Idris Elba or some “other Anglophone other showed up said, reporting your majesty.

    urbanleftbehind (847a06)

  153. @158. Postscript; speaking of which…

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_eYSuPKP3Y

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  154. That toilet is where aids was spawned…

    steveg (e8c34d)

  155. Elba’ s a cool cat, but he’s just not bond.
    David hardwood on the other hand might be able to pull it off.

    narciso (d1f714)

  156. So haverman lied again, what are the odds.

    narciso (d1f714)

  157. @92 Ben Burn

    The princess still belongs to a Saudi arms dealer and serves as a villain’s mobile headquarters.

    And the famous Luigi Stuchio? Never heard of him.

    Pinandpuller (975b5d)

  158. Hardwood he plays Martian manhunter. No it belongs to another saudi Prince who is building the next highest tower in the kingdom, he owns,3% of deutsch bank

    narciso (d1f714)

  159. @95 ULB

    Never heard of that either.

    Sort of like people who benefited from 911 like Paula Poundstone and Gary Condit.

    I saw Great White and Whitesnake in an arena. That’s why I don’t go to rallies to this day.

    Pinandpuller (975b5d)

  160. @105 nk

    All my skunks have Magic Johnson rabies.

    But you know, when I smell a skunk I really crave garlic bread. All sulfur compounds.

    Pinandpuller (975b5d)

  161. Ben Burn

    Are you alarmed by the White Menace? Or can you pass?

    Pinandpuller (975b5d)

  162. This was the stupid deck disco dave was dealing from

    https://pjmedia.com/trending/2017/08/16/wash
    ington-post-reporter-smears-iraq-war-vets-potential-extremists-shilling-hezbollah-terrorists/amp/

    narciso (d1f714)

  163. happyfeet

    Grape jelly is for sausage biscuits.

    Pinandpuller (975b5d)

  164. @120 DCSCA

    Whatever Bernie wants, Bernie Goetz.

    Pinandpuller (975b5d)

  165. 166, you’ve never been to live performance hell until you went to a Spanish language concert at the near-to-happyfeet Aragon Ballroom in Chicago. Lighters perilously close to curtains, kicker fights near the bar, and local youts of multiple shades waiting to mug you as you amble drunkenly back to your car which had to be parked several blocks away due to no dedicated parking.

    urbanleftbehind (847a06)

  166. @161. That toilet is where aids was spawned…

    Which is why it’s called Simi Valley.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  167. @162. IMO, Craig’s the best Bond since Connery. But then, he’s ‘In Like Flint’ w/t times.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  168. @171. ‘Take The A-Train’ – Duke Ellington

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  169. No Brosnan, Dalton was more faithful to the boks spirit, somewhat like the Warren Ellis graphic novels Moore was too unserious.

    narciso (d1f714)

  170. @176. Disagree IMO, but then the others likely suffered, as you note, from underwhelming scripts that merely lifted IF’s titles — and too many goofy gadgets– that was Moore’s unfortunate luck of the draw but in the 70s that was the draw, not the plots. ‘Course Connery set the standard- From Russia With Love remains my personal favorite w/You Only Live Twice a close second. FRWL made the commuter’s attache case chic back in the day. At least 4me these days at my age, Craig puts it all up on the screen. He fits well for this era.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  171. Craig would be good as Gavin Lyall’s Major Maxim, whom he resembles more than Fleming’s Bond. He’s ok as Bond; the movies I saw with him suffered more from bad writing than anything else. Although not as badly as the Brosnan movies. Hast du in deinem leben gesehen a military installation that blows up if you shoot it with a pistol?

    nk (dbc370)

  172. Casino worked because of the almost non stop action, quantum got stuck in inhospitable climes bolivia and Haiti, and virtue signaling, skyfAll recovered some.

    https://spectator.org/whose-side-is-he-on/?utm_source=American+Spectator+Emails&utm_campaign=8888697242-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2017_08_16&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_797a38d487-8888697242-104447141

    narciso (d1f714)

  173. @178- Interesting how we all have differing takes on it. The formula is what it is but good writing supplants gadgetry now. Given our world as it is today, gadgets are everyplace so there’s nothing special adding to them in the films. Skyfall’s – ‘gun and radio’ bit still gives me a chuckle. To my eye Craig just has a good delivery and the cold look; broke a few of the old Bond stereotypes, too. Surprised me; as when introduced a ‘blond Bond’ didn’t seem like it would fly. It’s a hard act to carry on now given half a century.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  174. I agree about From Russia With Love setting the standard.

    nk (dbc370)

  175. @179. Totally agree- and w/o Casino you’re lost in Quantum so you gotta seem them all. Haven’t seen Spectre yet but much enjoyed Skyfall.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  176. @181- Yeah, it’s still a good flick w/a good spy story line and captures that spy flavor from that era– it’s more or less ‘believable’ in the genre- night trains and secret coders.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  177. The book shows how anchored in the cold war it was, although there was the transition from Smersh to spectre. The corporate front of evil

    narciso (d1f714)

  178. @184. Yeah, it’s hard to transition from the books into screen plays for modern times; they don’t want to lock them in as ‘period pieces’ — which time will do on it’s own. Casino was much better than expected; Quantum seemed a little more introspective. Skyfall had personal appeal as I’d live in London so the half centered there was enjoyable to view if only to see old haunts and how the Tube had ‘improved’ — or in some places- not. LOL

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  179. There’s a whole long segue about halfway through spectre that makes you go hmm.

    narciso (d1f714)

  180. A very good period piece was the man from uncle, that borrowed most of the plot of the origin moonraker

    narciso (d1f714)

  181. lil marco is a mccain pooper wiper

    mg (31009b)

  182. ben burnee bro + jacksonian democrats = hitler

    mg (31009b)

  183. ben burnee bro – I get the feeling reading your posts you feel as important as the kids who stormed Normandy. Get the eff off your sister dip schlitz.

    mg (31009b)

  184. We’re way off topic, especially my who wants to make this about Ben

    Trump: semi-sentient bi-pedal billboard for GMO toxins.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  185. mg wants to make this about Ben

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  186. I am shocked to find agreement with happy feet on anything, but Baby Driver is tops.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  187. Pin: enjoy your tangents when they are in close orbit.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  188. There’s like 1.6 billion Muslims in the world and even a basis point of that in Jihadists is too much. The estimate is about 100,000.

    The Nazis we saw in Charlottesville probably have similar metrics. BTIM, the correlation between radicals and good people in percentage is similar.

    Is that an outrageous opinion?

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  189. Let me clarify…

    The good people in Trumps camp were not amongst the Nazis in Charlottesville. There were no good Nazis there.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  190. dailycaller.com/2017/08/16/in-their-own-words-the-radical-political-goals-of-anti-fascists

    narciso (d1f714)

  191. Whatever happened to uncle four Chang? This is why the alt-right should not be conflated with Nazis who are not necessarily joined at hip with confederate legacies not neoconfederates.

    urbanleftbehind (847a06)

  192. Remember their origin target was a gay Brit lapsed Catholic Greek curmudgeon, try saying that three tomes

    narciso (bbf9bc)

  193. 201.Remember their origin target was a gay Brit lapsed Catholic Greek curmudgeon, try saying that three tomes

    The “origin target” was white, Christian men and the Republic they created. The gay Greek was just used to set the example that *Freethink* will not be tolerated even by queers (the Q in LGBTQ) so it must once again be an acceptable name.

    The radical left wants to see our values and norms drowned in violence so that it has an excuse to eliminate free speech. It seeks to eliminate democracy by making the other side appear nightmarishly dangerous. It plots to impose a totalitarian system on the United States by empowering extremists to destroy the current system.

    And their opposite numbers waving swastika flags want the same thing. The difference is that they don’t control the Republican Party the way that the Alt-Left and black nationalists control the Democrats and compared to the vast numbers of college trained leftists they are few and far between. But you wouldn’t know that if you watched CNNMSNBCABCCBSNBC who constantly conflate “Nazi” and “white supremacist” with Republican, Trump supporter or lately, just white”.

    Rev.Hoagie® (630eca)

  194. By now, it should be dawning on Trump supporters that Trump is the worst possible spokesman for the positions they voted for. He’s the guy you wish was speaking for the other side.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  195. No the gay Greek would be a honeypot or a diversion, the better for antifa to shoot, spend, and expose their “wad”. Now either pole of 80s John Hughes high school fashion is like painting a target on your back.

    urbanleftbehind (847a06)

  196. I have a feeling NOBODY is going to bite in the Jihadist comparison..

    Ben burn (59d409)

  197. Muslims hate graven images. Many religions (judeo- Christian) prohibit.

    http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2017/08/stonewall_jackson_s_grandsons_the_monuments_must_go.html

    Ben burn (59d409)

  198. Milo Yiannopoulos is evidence that the alt.right are imitation Nazis, not real ones. The genuine Nazis purged “those people” from the Party in the Night of the Long Knives and rounded up the rest into concentration camps.

    And I suspect the original Nazis “loved” dogs in a different manner than David Duke’s and Richard Spencer’s followers do, but I don’t vouch for it.

    nk (dbc370)

  199. Tsking tsking whole they tear this country, brick by brick.

    narciso (bfe045)

  200. This isn’t about speech, this about the criminal dereliction of duty that both signed and McAuliffe shared, ‘you had one nob’ to keep the city safe, why isn’t he hounded till his last say in office.

    Trump had nothing to do with this, except signed let his hatred override whatever good judgement he ever had.

    narciso (bfe045)

  201. People have to buy a clue and get some persective
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08/17/van-ploughs-crowd-barcelona1/

    narciso (bfe045)

  202. What is up with the need to worship the Golden Calf?

    http://www.politico.com/story/2017/08/17/trump-confederate-monuments-tweets-241733

    Ben burn (59d409)

  203. 203… well said, Hoagie, and willfully ignored by so many.

    Colonel Haiku (470cbb)

  204. I believe the following stands by itself

    The wrong story is being reported and even Progressives are complicit in perpetuating a false narrative.
    There are ONLY two sides to this. The White Supremacists with their Republican enablers are the wrong side. Everyone else needs to pull together despite our differences.
    When I followed the call from Congregate C’Ville for clergy to come defend Charlottesville from Nazis l knew my belief in nonviolence was well grounded, solid. Frankly, I had no patience with anyone advocating violence to advance social justice (this is an issue of tactics not self defense).
    I am still stalwart in my devotion to nonviolence but now, after Charlottesville, the story is more complex and nuanced.
    Please bear with me, I believe this is important and will not be short.
    First what happened:
    We were called to help and many of us, perhaps a couple hundred, volunteered to risk arrest standing to prevent Nazis entering the park for a major rally designed to intimidate the community of Charlottesville.
    This rally to be was not an isolated event that could be ignored. This was to be the culmination of many weeks of intimidation. This town has been under siege. Bands of Nazi and KKK have been entering cafes or swaggering through the streets and following people to their cars with guns on display. The state has done nothing to protect Charlottesville citizens from threats. We could not allow this to become the new normal. We hoped that by taking a stand and being arrested for doing the state’s job, the state would be embarrassed into doing their job to protect people.
    Friday night almost a thousand people met in St. Paul’s Memorial Church for a Prayer Service in preparation to confront the next day’s racist rally. Nearly two hundred of us had received nonviolent civil disobedience training earlier in the day. We were prepared for arrest.
    Everything changed.
    Hundreds of Nazis surrounded a much smaller group of student protestors across the street from our church. The police did nothing. Nazis pelted students with flaming tiki torches. The police did nothing. A group of Nazis broke off and came outside our church to intimidate us and block our exit. We called the police. They did nothing.
    We were prepared for arrest but if the police do nothing that only leaves us at the mercy of the Nazis.
    Leadership had always emphasized that in addition to arrest there was the possibility of injury. With police inaction, the threat level was reassessed to likely injury, possibility of death.
    By morning monitoring of the situation increased the danger level again. We had hoped to have hundreds blocking access to the park. Facing police is one thing. Facing Nazis with police nearby to intervene is another story. Facing Nazis with police nearby who will NOT intervene is a whole another story.
    After standing in line before the militia as a relatively large group and sharing prayers or statements for justice, a smaller group proceeded to the stairs on the only open entrance to the park. 19 clergy and one atheist intended to symbolically block roving bands of Nazis from returning to the hundreds gathered behind us.
    A group of Nazis advanced towards us. A band of AntiFa stepped up to defend the clergy, we asked them to step back and allow us to make our nonviolent stand. They respected our request and reluctantly backed off. We were actually surprised they complied. They said that they disagreed with our tactics but appreciated and respected us. Respect breeds respect. After perhaps a hundred Nazis broke through our line we regrouped but an even larger Nazi force started towards us. The AntiFa rushed in and broke the Nazi charge. We did not ask for them. We were prepared to be beaten. However, we all respected that they defended us in love despite our disagreement on tactics. They certainly saved 19 clergy and me from a brutal beating and likely even death. They did what the police would not do all day. They defended innocent lives. I cannot criticize them for that. I thank them. When this happens again, we will ask them to stand down again but I will not paint them all with a broad violent brush. Many of these people are more like our fathers in WWII than the hooligans they are portrayed as.
    We don’t have to agree with each other.
    We don’t even have to understand each other.
    But to defeat the rising tide of White Supremacism in our country we much respect our allies in struggle and hopefully coordinate and cooperate but at least not cut each other down.
    That will be hard. We’re all angry and frustrated and frayed. Some of us will lash out. Try to understand when this happens. Try to receive the verbal blow and perhaps learn something. Maybe I need a good kick in the pants despite my good intentions. Maybe they’re just mistaken or lashing out. Either way shouting back won’t help.
    Let’s try to work together.
    I used to be a purist on nonviolence in protests. I still am but I’m not going to harshly judge people who may have saved my life out of love just because some were also itching for a fight with those who promote outright murder.
    It just might be the case that the civil rights victories of the 60s may have required Malcom X, MLK Jr. and Black Power in all its manifestations.
    I really don’t know but I ain’t judging anybody, including AntiFa, any more if they’re fighting for justice.

    https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=288035958271449&id=100011951417392

    Davethulhu (fab944)

  205. Stands like a pile of dog excrement, hardened by the elements, Cthulhu.

    Colonel Haiku (470cbb)

  206. “Not kidding….@wolfblitzer just said the Barcelona attack is a “copycat” of the Charlottesville attack.”

    http://ace.mu.nu/archives/371169.php

    Colonel Haiku (470cbb)

  207. Grudges MUST be cultivated to thrive as they do..

    Ben burn (59d409)

  208. Leftwing hyperbole and highly selective outrage are the orders of the day on the Left and for their Democrat/Marxist operatives with bylines in the Media.

    Colonel Haiku (470cbb)

  209. the coffee at Nazi Starbucks tastes burnt like they put their beans in an oven somewheres and just left them there

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  210. @215 has got to be one of the biggest bags of dog excrement I’ve read all day. If half of that crap was true the leftist media would have been smearing it up and down the news for a month. Where do you get this garbage from? Are you on some communist mailing list or underground propaganda blog?

    Rev.Hoagie® (630eca)

  211. I still believe in marketplace control over speech. Let’s say that the Jim Crow laws remained on the books, can anyone see a boyboctt, a rowdy one at that at a diner who refused service to a custonmer based soley on their skn color? The market will speak, the diner’s customers would let them know in uncertain terms that the behavior is not supportable by their patronage of eating at said diner who would rather quickly I imagine start hosting black diner’s specials~

    NEOCON_1 (b34f4c)

  212. 221 Rev.Hoagie® (630eca) — 8/17/2017 @ 12:16 pm

    .@215 has got to be one of the biggest bags of dog excrement I’ve read all day. If half of that crap was true the leftist media would have been smearing it up and down the news for a month. Where do you get this garbage from? Are you on some communist mailing list or underground propaganda blog?

    I cvan beleive this. The media is bad, but it isn’t only bad because of bias. It’s bad period. (the thing is,. though, to limit this to what he actually saw)

    Anyway, that Facebook post by a David Freedman contains glimmers of bias, so that means it is probably true. There are hints that the Antifa people are worse than he makes them out to be:

    A group of Nazis advanced towards us. A band of AntiFa stepped up to defend the clergy, we asked them to step back and allow us to make our nonviolent stand. They respected our request and reluctantly backed off. We were actually surprised they complied.

    Now, there had to be reason that they were so surprised. He doesn’t tell you, but that does tell you that there’s more.

    He claims the White Supremacists have Republican enablers, but he doesn’t tell you how in any way Republicans enabled them, unless that’s supposed to be something that we already “know” and goes without saying.. He does tell how Democrats enabled them, although he doesn’t call them Democrats.

    Bands of Nazi and KKK have been entering cafes or swaggering through the streets and following people to their cars with guns on display. [That sounds consistent, although worse, wth what happened near a synagogue on Saturday, and could be true – SF] The state has done nothing to protect Charlottesville citizens from threats. [Virginia has a Democratic Governor, Terry McAuliffe, aman very close to the Clintons, and in no way did the Republican state legislature tie his hands about this, or of he wants to say that, let him explain how. If he means the “state” in general, to mean the city government, that’s all run by Democrats] We could not allow this to become the new normal. We hoped that by taking a stand and being arrested for doing the state’s job, the state would be embarrassed into doing their job to protect people. [That sounds like the state in general. Every single responsible government official that he can mean was a Democrat or appointed by a Democrat – SF] Friday night almost a thousand people met in St. Paul’s Memorial Church for a Prayer Service in preparation to confront the next day’s racist rally. Nearly two hundred of us had received nonviolent civil disobedience training earlier in the day. We were prepared for arrest.

    Everything changed.

    Hundreds of Nazis surrounded a much smaller group of student protestors across the street from our church. The police did nothing. [the city of Charlottsville has a Democrat mayor, Michael Signer and I think all the members of the City Ciouncil are Democrats- SF] Nazis pelted students with flaming tiki torches. The police did nothing. A group of Nazis broke off and came outside our church to intimidate us and block our exit. We called the police. They did nothing. [Only Democrats were in charge- SF] We were prepared for arrest but if the police do nothing that only leaves us at the mercy of the Nazis.

    Leadership had always emphasized that in addition to arrest there was the possibility of injury. With police inaction, the threat level was reassessed to likely injury, possibility of death.
    By morning monitoring of the situation increased the danger level again. We had hoped to have hundreds blocking access to the park. Facing police is one thing. Facing Nazis with police nearby to intervene is another story. Facing Nazis with police nearby who will NOT intervene is a whole another story.

    So Republicans were the enablers?

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  213. I linked the source. Feel free to visit the guy’s Facebook and call him a liar, if that’s what you believe.

    Davethulhu (fab944)

  214. No this David Freedman is not a liar.

    But if you read what he says he’s pointed the finger at Democrats, and he’s not saying that Antifa was non-violent.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  215. The whole thing was actually maybe organized by a Democrat, operating under deep cover:

    This could sound crazy but that’s actually not so crazy to me. Because I think this is precisely the sort of thing that happened with two of he main leadrrs of the “militia” movement in 1993 and 1994, Linda Thompson, the black helicopter lady, and Robert Fletcher, of the Montana militia.

    http://www.businessinsider.com/who-is-jason-kessler-unite-the-right-charlottesville-2017-8

    Pro-Trump, far-right commentators are now trying to distance themselves from Kessler in the wake of the deadly Charlottesville riots, claiming that he was paid by the liberal philanthropist George Soros “to invite several neo-Nazi and KKK groups to smear everyone attending.”

    “Just did some digging and I found out that this little f–k was a leftist operative until when? You guessed it — November 2016,” wrote a commenter on the pro-Trump reddit group /r/The_Donald.

    This isn’t just the white supremacists and neo-Nazis. Rush Limbaugh mentioned that the Southern Poverty Law Center had said that, and here is what their website says:

    https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/individual/jason-kessler

    Rumors abound on white nationalist forums that Kessler’s ideological pedigree before 2016 was less than pure and seem to point to involvement in the Occupy movement and past support for President Obama.

    At one recent speech in favor of Charlottesville’s status as a sanctuary city, Kessler live-streamed himself as an attendee questioned him and apologized for an undisclosed spat during Kessler’s apparent involvement with Occupy. Kessler appeared visibly perturbed by the woman’s presence and reminders of their past association.

    This would not shock me, as I said, because two of the most important leaders of the militia movement early in the Clinton Administration in in 1993 and 1994 were ex-Democrats, or ex-radical left, and could have been operating under deep cover.

    I’d blame Ron Brown rather George Soros, though in 1988-1994 and we have no idea who could have directed or recruited Jason Kessler now.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  216. Here’s more from the Southern Poverty Law Center:

    Regardless of Kessler’s past politics, the rightward shift in his views was first put on display in November, 2016 when his tirade against Wes Bellamy began.

    Bellamy, a teacher at Charlottesville’s Albemarle High School teacher and Vice Mayor, first drew Kessler’s ire after organizing a press conference to call for the removal of a statue of Robert E. Lee in downtown Charlottesville on March 22, 2016. After a face-to-face encounter at a second rally protesting a UVA lecturer who referred to Black Lives Matter as a racist group, Kessler set his sights on having Bellamy removed from office.

    That November, Kessler posted an expose revealing lewd and offensive tweets and retweets made by Bellamy prior to entering office. Beneath a photo captioned with a reference to the racist “Kangz” meme that white nationalists typically employ to mock the Black Egyptian hypothesis, Kessler asserted that Bellamy’s tweets were proof of “anti-white bias.”

    Kessler has gone on to assert that Bellamy attained his position on the Charlottesville Board of Education because “Democrats … are political elitists, hiding behind Wes Bellamy … Bellamy is untouchable to them, no matter how ridiculously anti-white he is.”

    Kessler’s unearthing of Bellamy’s sexist, homophobic, and bigoted tweets did garner some coverage on the national scene. Relishing in the spotlight, Kessler pressed the attack…

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  217. ropelight at #223 in another thread (the Trump uniter thread)

    What he says is fairly consistent with what David Freedman wrote on Facebook, although I’m not sure if Freeman is talking about the same event. but both are before the car attack which happened later. Both speak of limited egress from the park and they both blame the police for what went wrong.)

    223. Longtime Clinton crony and Governor of Virginia, Terry McAuliffe, conspired with Charlottesville police and Antifa to set the stage for violence. They have blood on their hands.

    The police barricades were designed to allow only two exits from the park, both on the South side and into the waiting throngs of well armed Antifa thugs. Both exits inevitably funneled the two hostile sides into direct confrontation and resulted in equally predictable violent mayhem.

    The police ignored a safe escape route to the protected North side of the park, in the opposit direction from the waiting Antifa thugs, which is proof enough the police orchestrated the bloody confrontation by arranging to pit the two sides together in confined combat.

    This is yet another example of how the new Left operates: what they hate is what they have become.
    ropelight (072508) — 8/16/2017 @ 11:25 am

    David Freedman writes:

    After standing in line before the militia as a relatively large group and sharing prayers or statements for justice, a smaller group proceeded to the stairs on the only open entrance to the park. 19 clergy and one atheist intended to symbolically block roving bands of Nazis from returning to the hundreds gathered behind us.

    A group of Nazis advanced towards us. A band of AntiFa stepped up to defend the clergy, we asked them to step back and allow us to make our nonviolent stand. They respected our request and reluctantly backed off. We were actually surprised they complied. They said that they disagreed with our tactics but appreciated and respected us. Respect breeds respect. After perhaps a hundred Nazis broke through our line we regrouped but an even larger Nazi force started towards us. The AntiFa rushed in and broke the Nazi charge. We did not ask for them. We were prepared to be beaten. However, we all respected that they defended us in love despite our disagreement on tactics. They certainly saved 19 clergy and me from a brutal beating and likely even death. They did what the police would not do all day. They defended innocent lives. I cannot criticize them for that. I thank them….

    there';s adisagreement as to whether there was one entrances or two entrannces open, but if there were two, they were close together. Freeman could either have missxed it because of teh crowd or not counted it as separate.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  218. I appreciate your detailed posts, Sammy, but to me this is all conspiracy theory stuff. I don’t believe that McAuliffe issued a stand down order, or that the rally organizer is secretly a leftist, or that Soros financed the whole thing. According to the police chief, at a press conference, they weren’t prepared, and I also suspect that the rank-and-file police officers had a general disdain for both groups which manifested in their passive response.

    Also, ropelight is seriously underselling how well armed the protestors were. They were hardly lambs being led to the slaughter.

    The police chief also had this to say (regarding park entrances):

    Thomas said organizers of the Unite the Right rally did not follow what the chief said had been an agreed-upon plan that involved controlling the demonstrators’ access to Emancipation Park through a rear entrance.

    When rally attendees started coming in from all sides Saturday morning, the chief said, his officers had to alter their plans and transition into protective gear from the street uniforms they were wearing. Protesters and counterprotesters converged in some pitched battles in the streets before Charlottesville police, backed by Virginia State Police, quelled the fighting.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/charlottesville-police-chief-defends-officers-police-response-at-violent-rally/2017/08/14/23eff70e-8136-11e7-b359-15a3617c767b_story.html?utm_term=.088b06c030b0

    Davethulhu (fab944)

  219. 229. Davethulhu (fab944) — 8/17/2017 @ 2:58 pm

    appreciate your detailed posts, Sammy, but to me this is all conspiracy theory stuff.

    Just because something is a conspiracy doesn’t mean it’s wrong although there are a lot of wrong conspiracies.

    To assert that the white supremacists represent a serious threat to liberty is itself to assert conspirac, as is to assert that Trump has some sympathy for them.

    I don’t believe that McAuliffe issued a stand down order

    I don’t know what happened there. A lot of things coud have gone into that. At this point, it remains up in the air. It could have come in the form of expert advice. It could also be that somebody knew that expert advice was wrong.

    or that the rally organizer is secretly a leftist

    That’s quite possible. Or he may be for hire, or thought he could gain something on his own.

    The non-conspiracy version would have him changing his point of view sometime between 2013 and 2016, unless that’s all wrong about him having been involved with Occupy Wall Street and supporting Obama (kind of strange for a white racist)

    or that Soros financed the whole thing.

    I don’t see how anybody could be that specific.

    By the way another person whom I think was a double agent was David Brock. He set out to write a book about the Anita Hill leak, but instead wrote something called “The Real Anita Hill”

    Bill and Hillary Clinton may have been responsible for the leak. There was a round robin letter from Yale Law School graduates pressuring Anita Hill to come forward (because she’d claimed she’d been sexually harassed whenever she was asked why she left her job in Washington) I remember hearing about tis letetr during the hearings but can’t find a reference to it via Google. Now Bill and Hillary Clinton were both Yale Law School graduates. .

    And then, when the story breaks, Bill Clinton announced for president.

    By the way I think Anita Hill tried to come up with the mildest form of sexual harassment that would be consistent with her earlier vague claims. She sounded like somewhat forced into making these assertions in order to avoid claimes taht she had lied to people before.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  220. Davethulhu:

    According to the police chief, at a press conference, they weren’t prepared, and I also suspect that the rank-and-file police officers had a general disdain for both groups which manifested in their passive response.

    teh rank and file would not in any case have acted on their own.

    This was actually the third rally.

    They were relying on a refusal to grant the white supremacists a permit, even though anyone could have told whoever tried to deny the permit that that was legally unsound and could be overturned in court by “Unite the Right” if they had a lawyer.

    Since there supposedly wasn’t going to be a demonstration or a counter-demonstration nothing was prepared.

    The permit was actually revoked by the Governor while this was going on, but that didn’t stop anything nor did the police do anything then.

    Here’s from the Huffington Post version:

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/charlottesville-police-response_us_5991de97e4b090964298e5bc

    ….Police announced the rally had been deemed an unlawful assembly, and threatened to arrest anyone who did not disperse. Protesters and counter-protesters fanned back out into the streets.

    Now, there was nothing to prevent open confrontations between the factions. White nationalists and counter-demonstrators tore through Charlottesville’s historic downtown mall, many still carrying makeshift weapons, including large flagpoles and wooden signposts, which Stephens said are typically prohibited at protests.

    And there’s another thing:

    Longo couldn’t explain how a car was able to get through the crowded streets and onto the town’s mall.

    “I’m shocked, in disbelief that there was traffic anywhere near that level of pedestrian activity,” Longo said. “That street is typically shut down on weekends for events that occur on the mall. I can only assume that it wasn’t in this case, and why, I simply can’t answer that question.”

    Because supposedly Because supposedly there wasn’t going to any event there!

    The Antifa people were issued two permits but at a different location than the recently renamed Emancipation Park (formerly Robert E. Lee Park, maybe in the future Heather D. Heyer Park ) However they were very publicly out to confront (and also outnumber – that’s why so many non-violent people got involved) the other side.

    Now the police say they would have had no right to keep the Antifa people away because anyone can go into the park. I think the fighting anyway happened right outside the park.

    Also, ropelight is seriously underselling how well armed the protestors were. They were hardly lambs being led to the slaughter.

    ropelight doesn’t say they were unarmed. He says the police set up the fight.

    The police chief also had this to say (regarding park entrances):

    Thomas said organizers of the Unite the Right rally did not follow what the chief said had been an agreed-upon plan that involved controlling the demonstrators’ access to Emancipation Park through a rear entrance.

    So the theory was – who came up with this anyway? – that the pro-statue people would come in through only one entrance. They may have made the mistake of thinking “Unite the Right” was not interested in a fight, and/or they would control their members like they were under military discipline.

    When rally attendees started coming in from all sides Saturday morning, the chief said, his officers had to alter their plans and transition into protective gear from the street uniforms they were wearing. Protesters and counterprotesters converged in some pitched battles in the streets before Charlottesville police, backed by Virginia State Police, quelled the fighting.

    So while they were away changing uniforms thsi whole thing hapepned.

    There are numerous complaints that the police did not respond to any call for help. It sounds like somebody organzied the police response – into ineffectiveness. All teh police were at the park, where they only acted according to plan.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)


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