Patterico's Pontifications

1/31/2017

President Trump Nominates Neil Gorsuch!

Filed under: General — Dana @ 5:17 pm

[guest post by Dana]

The best news for Conservatives.

While Democrats are promising a vigorous battle, now is the time to savor the moment.

–Dana

UPDATE BY PATTERICO:

Tonight, I am proud of President Trump, without reservation. If I may plagiarize myself from a recent post:

In many ways, Gorsuch is the ideal successor to Scalia, as he shares many of Scalia’s attributes. He is an engaging and entertaining writer. He is an originalist, which is the only legitimate method of constitutional interpretation — but one that Scalia did much to make respectable. Gorsuch is an ardent textualist, like Scalia, and shares Scalia’s disdain for a reliance on fickle and often misleading legislative history.

I listened to Trump’s and Gorsuch’s remarks on my drive home, and was impressed by each. Listening to Gorsuch talk of how he clerked for Byron White and Anthony Kennedy (after Justice White retired) reminded me that I was at the Court for Justice White’s last day on the Court. Mrs. P. and I had prime seats, and today I realize that I was probably sitting only feet away from future Justice Gorsuch that day.

To those who got on my case for failing to predict the outcome of the election, let me remind you of two things. First: a lot of you thought the GOP was going to cave on Merrick Garland. I said they wouldn’t — and they didn’t. And to the more extreme of the NeverTrumpers: many of you said Trump would be horrible on Supreme Court nominations. I said I thought he would be very good — and he was.

I’ve rarely been more pleased to have two of my predictions turn out to be correct.

Always Generally trust content from Patterico.

What a great day for America.

— P

UPDATE x2 BY PATTERICO:

UPDATE x3 BY PATTERICO: Video.

UPDATE x4 BY PATTERICO:

[Cross-posted at The Jury Talks Back.]

172 Responses to “President Trump Nominates Neil Gorsuch!”

  1. Good for President Trump. The nation needs this, and the president needs this, too.

    Dana (023079)

  2. Bone tossed.

    Chew away.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  3. Wheres Patterico?

    Davod (f3a711)

  4. In his speech he put the word “independence” right next to the weasel word “collegiality”. What the. I’m a bit concerned about this guy. You can either be independent or collegial, not both. Correct me if I’m wrong, which I’m not.

    jcurtis (78cd0c)

  5. I’m sure he will be along, Davod. I just wanted to open a new thread, okay?

    Dana (023079)

  6. The MSNBC crowd believes this is going to fall ultimately to McConnell as the Dems likely won’t cast a single vote for Gorsuch.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  7. @3. Likely in his living room.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  8. That’s funny, DSCSA, CNN’s commentators just said that they believe he was likely to pick up a few Democrats.

    Dana (023079)

  9. Sen. Manchin has already said he won’t filibuster.

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  10. UPDATE BY PATTERICO:

    Tonight, I am proud of President Trump, without reservation. If I may plagiarize myself from a recent post:

    In many ways, Gorsuch is the ideal successor to Scalia, as he shares many of Scalia’s attributes. He is an engaging and entertaining writer. He is an originalist, which is the only legitimate method of constitutional interpretation — but one that Scalia did much to make respectable. Gorsuch is an ardent textualist, like Scalia, and shares Scalia’s disdain for a reliance on fickle and often misleading legislative history.

    I listened to Trump’s and Gorsuch’s remarks on my drive home, and was impressed by each. Listening to Gorsuch talk of how he clerked for Byron White and Anthony Kennedy (after Justice White retired) reminded me that I was at the Court for Justice White’s last day on the Court. Mrs. P. and I had prime seats, and today I realize that I was probably sitting only feet away from future Justice Gorsuch that day.

    To those who got on my case for failing to predict the outcome of the election, let me remind you of two things. First: a lot of you thought the GOP was going to cave on Merrick Garland. I said they wouldn’t — and they didn’t. And to the more extreme of the NeverTrumpers: many of you said Trump would be horrible on Supreme Court nominations. I said I thought he would be very good — and he was.

    I’ve rarely been more pleased to have two of my predictions turn out to be correct.

    Always Generally trust content from Patterico.

    What a great day for America.

    — P

    [Cross-posted at The Jury Talks Back.]

    Patterico (115b1f)

  11. @8- Yeah, whaddya expect. Their position is to hold fast in opposition as an affirmative vote on their political records is something they’d have to defend for the rest of their political lives given G’s age. Thing is, rump will likely have another seat or two to fill anyway.

    My position is page successfully turned in the media. Super Sunday approaches and President Trump presses on.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  12. Does he realize that along with the honor of filling the “Scalia” seat also goes the responsibility of taking on RBG as a special friend?

    elissa (904156)

  13. UPDATE x2 BY PATTERICO:

    Patterico (115b1f)

  14. @9. Which makes Weepin’ Chuckie and his Wiley Whips essentially impotent.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  15. I’ve been reviewing some old score cards and it appears at this early juncture that President Trump has out-performed every President in my memory, which goes back to Johnson. Go to this page if you want to be reminded of the piss-poor job The Gipper did in selecting his cabinet.

    At what point has Trump done enough of things he promised on the campaign trail, conservative things, to get the #NeverTrump folks to rethink their opposition?

    At some point, #NeverTrumpers simply become fellow travelers to the Left.

    ThOR (c9324e)

  16. Gorsuch uses contractions in his opinions. Scalia might be spinning in his grave.

    Alan (e40c75)

  17. Class I of the Senate will keep Schumer impotent through the ’18 election. Nobody is going to take a bullet for Chuckie.

    Rick Ballard (0c6bf8)

  18. Or that those slobbering Trump-lovers might be on to something.

    ThOR (c9324e)

  19. This guy looks too old. He has geezer hair and looks even older than Trump. He looks like he ain’t got longevity in his blood. Did his ancestors have long lives? Parents still alive? Sorry to be morbid but it’s important.

    jcurtis (78cd0c)

  20. What should impress/alarm/alert ideologues on all sides is pragmatist Trump is doing what he said he would do and keeping a New York executive’s pace. The bone was tossed for the ideologues gnaw on. Now, on to things that matter in the immediate.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  21. ” Correct me if I’m wrong, which I’m not.”

    – jcurtis

    That line is well worth stealing.

    ThOR (c9324e)

  22. #19 jcurtis, try using that google thing.
    Gorsuch is only 49 years old. He has premature “silver fox” hair.

    Cruz Supporter (102c9a)

  23. @ ThOR, #15:

    I admit to being very impressed with Gorsuch. It’s a good pick from Trump, and one that makes me very happy he’s president.

    And then you have to go and say this:

    At what point has Trump done enough of things he promised on the campaign trail, conservative things, to get the #NeverTrump folks to rethink their opposition?

    At some point, #NeverTrumpers simply become fellow travelers to the Left.

    Ah, well. We almost agreed on something. I guess I’ll take that.

    Demosthenes (09f714)

  24. Very gracious, Patrick.

    I am elated at the pick as well as the ceremony. I actually teared up when Trump said with obvious sincerity, this glorious nation.

    Patricia (5fc097)

  25. 16. Alan (e40c75) — 1/31/2017 @ 5:46 pm

    Gorsuch uses contractions in his opinions. Scalia might be spinning in his grave.

    I read in a newspaper the other day that contractions are used in things written for the ear, but not in things written for the eye., and that’s one way you can tell them apart.

    Same thing here maybe:

    http://www.mrmediatraining.com/2011/04/13/5-ways-to-write-for-the-ear-not-for-the-eye/

    Here are five ways you can write for the ear, not the eye:

    ….4. Use contractions: Barring the most formal speeches, oral delivery requires the use of contractions. “Do not” and “I will” work best for the eye. “Don’t” and “I’ll” work best for the ear.

    Sammy Finkelman (8a673f)

  26. You’re not happy with his other nominees, Demosthenes? Or that Trump, unlike virtually all pols, seems intent on fulfilling his campaign promises? And with remarkable alacrity, too!

    ThOR (c9324e)

  27. mom Reagan’s EPA chief

    That’s right. I remember the name Anne Gorsuch.

    But not what position she held.

    I wouldn’t have drawn the connection in any case, if I had remembered the name.

    Judge Gorsuch evidently was clerking in the Supreme Court in 1993 because he said Justice Byron White (the last judge from Colorado – Scott Pelley on CBS noted also that he’d led the NFL in rushing – is that right?) had introduced him to Judge Kennedy – White retired in the middle of a term.

    The way Judge Gorsuch has been described he sounds very good. Trump said he read decisions.

    Sammy Finkelman (8a673f)

  28. I did not watch the announcement and I’m very happy with the pick from what little I’ve read but on a side note, on Drudge it said Trump was “flying in the finalists”.
    This was for final interviews right? I mean he didn’t have them all sitting there and then hand Gorsuch a red rose I hope.

    Harkin (90be6e)

  29. We really have to tip our hats to Mitch McConnell for holding the line on the vacancy.

    Cruz Supporter (102c9a)

  30. Patterico @10, nicely said.

    There will be many bumps along the way I am sure. But I am so happy that at least most of us have found out that Donald wasn’t a stalking horse for his friend Hillary to let her win –and so happy that (especially after the primaries) he didn’t quit his campaign in failure or boredom or embarrassment. That would have changed everything.

    elissa (904156)

  31. Well, I don’t think this is very pragmatic. It’s something any ideologue would do. And that haircut. Really!

    nk (dbc370)

  32. Looks like he is a fly fisherman too. That’s a good sign in my book.

    AZ Bob (f7a491)

  33. So the #NeverTrump crowd is now split into

    1). See, this guy is old. He’s gonna die. He’s not been 100% consistent. We’re still right!
    2) See, I did say all along he’d make great SCOTUS picks. It’s everything else that I hated him for. Now I gotta run. Those other nits aren’t going to pick themselves, you know. We’re still (mostly) right!

    WTP (094b61)

  34. Thing is, this is likely going to come down to how big a pair Big Apple’s Schumer can swing against President New Yorker.

    If Chuckie can keep his own ‘wall’ solid and rally a denial vote as payback for Garland, Hardiman would likely get through as runner up and give Chuck some points on the board for’leadership.’ If Chuckie fails, he’s just a tear-stained empty suit for the next four years. So this is now political, not legal. Schumer can’t lose then wail he fought the valiant fight on this one.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  35. I’m concerned about his having clerked for White instead of Scalia or Rehnquist. I know that was a long time ago, but…

    Alan (e40c75)

  36. We can air our grievances Alan festivus later. But this is grand slam territory, and apart of it was in messing with hobby lobby and the sisters of the poor, Obama was ‘dealing with immutable forces of nature’

    Ed Rooney, cca chair (network 1976)

    narciso (d1f714)

  37. Well whizzer was the last sane. Dem supreme court justice,

    narciso (d1f714)

  38. I have a feeling that his Boulder ethos mixed with his Episcopalian priest woman (who sounds a little SF or NY or Chiraq off the rails) will come back to haunt Trump

    steveg (5508fb)

  39. #35 Alan, use the google thing.
    Gorsuch is from Colorado — so was Byron White.
    Gorsuch also clerked for a conservative judge by the name of David Sentelle.
    And Gorsuch’s mother was Reagan’s head of the EPA.
    This is a time to rejoice.

    Cruz Supporter (102c9a)

  40. Clerking for White is good.

    nk (dbc370)

  41. I’ll go out on a limb and say Gorsuch may have been set up by Trump’s team to placate ideologues but ultimately fail so Hardiman gets through on the second try. Trump doesn’t appear that Machiavellian but regardless of whether Schumer holds or chokes, it’s a win in the end for Trump.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  42. Jerry Falwell Jr. has been selected to lead Trump’s higher education task force. It’s a nice fit with DeVos wrt vouchers. It’s not exactly a union buster for teachers but it’s certainly going to cut into Democrat directed dues over time.

    Rick Ballard (0c6bf8)

  43. Here’s me sawing off that limb, DCSCA, saw saw saw. Gorsuch will be confirmed after much theatrical gnashing of teeth and rending of Dem garments– and without O’Connell going nuclear. It’ll be a win for Trump, Gorsuch, and America.

    elissa (904156)

  44. And again, it is good to see Trump governing as he campaigned. MANY of us were unconvinced of his bona fides, since he had had his feet in both camps for so long.

    This is an excellent choice. So good that the Democrats are left no path but Demogogue (sic).

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  45. So are Trump and Clinton still the same?

    NJRob (5530db)

  46. Thor – So far, DJT has out-Reaganed, Reagan.

    Now, try to think long-term. Let’s just see how DJT reacts when, not if…when the GOPe rats start feeding us all heaping doses of Dhimmicrat-lite legislation. Will he fight them, or accept the best deal he believes he can get? Will he revert to extra-constitutional means to get his way?

    The time to judge a person is not when things are going pretty good. DJT has a rotten personal history as a business titan when he ran into folks aligned against him. It would be a shock if he does not revert to type. That’s what human beings do.

    If he proves out to be a Reagan? I’ll be thrilled to proclaim such.

    Ed from SFV (3400a5)

  47. WTP, re: your #33 comment –

    Not all. I was one of those saying “Don’t pick Trump, he’s still a Democrat at heart and lying about his conservative principles.” (Because from what I could see of his actions, that’s what it looked like). I am VERY happy to have been proven wrong in this case!

    Robin Munn (8baaed)

  48. Been wanting to use this one for a while, Doritos Flying Pig [YouTube]

    Good a time as any (although I think there will be plenty of opportunity during the Trump presidency).

    papertiger (c8116c)

  49. Wizzer White wrote the dissent in Roe.

    I find nothing in the language or history of the Constitution to support the Court’s judgment. The Court simply fashions and announces a new constitutional right for pregnant women and, with scarcely any reason or authority for its action, invests that right with sufficient substance to override most existing state abortion statutes. The upshot is that the people and the legislatures of the 50 States are constitutionally disentitled to weigh the relative importance of the continued existence and development of the fetus, on the one hand, against a spectrum of possible impacts on the woman, on the other hand. As an exercise of raw judicial power, the Court perhaps has authority to do what it does today; but, in my view, its judgment is an improvident and extravagant exercise of the power of judicial review that the Constitution extends to this Court

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  50. #33: Everything you say except your first two points is correct.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  51. I second what Kevin M said about doubting Trump’s bona fides in the past. Like Kevin, I also was unconvinced during the campaign, partly because of Trump’s past actions (eminent domain, etc.) but mostly because of his unfair attacks against Cruz. But I’m very happy with this pick.

    Robin Munn (8baaed)

  52. DCSCA, stop being annoyed that Trump actually nominated a true originalist and not a social leftist.

    You cannot have it all. He kept his word.

    NJRob (5530db)

  53. Apparently Gorsuch had silver hair in his 20’s.

    At Neil Gorsuch’s 2006 investiture ceremony in Denver, his former law partner wanted to retire any suggestion that Gorsuch had dyed his hair gray to conceal the fact that at 39 he had become one of the country’s youngest federal appeals court judges.

    “When Neil came to our firm in 1995, he had gray hair,” said the law partner, Mark C. Hansen. “In fact, he was born with silver hair, as well as an inexhaustible store of Winston Churchill quotes.”

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/courts_law/neil-gorsuch-naturally-equipped-for-his-spot-on-trumps-supreme-court-shortlist/2017/01/28/91b00a46-e49b-11e6-a453-19ec4b3d09ba_story.html

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  54. The slams against White came mostly from the Left and law professors (but I repeat myself). He was no libertarian, you could even call him statist, especially on law and order issues, but he was a strict constructionist and conservative in the mold of Burger, Rehnquist and O’Connor.

    nk (dbc370)

  55. the huntress. Put it ‘don’t put your faith in politicians, they will dissapoint’ I’m sure he will as well but what he has been able to put forth has been impressive thus far.

    narciso (d1f714)

  56. Bless you Patterico – and thank you.

    Bill Saracino (ad0096)

  57. And I am still a NeverTrumper but I heartily welcome being pleasantly surprised when bad people do good things, and tickled pink to have been proven wrong.

    This comment is brought to you by Push Button Lilt, the only home permanent with foam.

    nk (dbc370)

  58. Much of the #NeverTrump position was that Trump was our weakest candidate, and the only major candidate who could lose to Hillary. He nearly did. But having won, a lot of #NeverTrump became #WellMaybe. The transition process and his appointments have gained him some support.

    But we are still “walking on eggshells.” We have no idea what will be coming out from Twitter, and a couple of these EOs have been rough around the edges (immigration) or bumper-sticker level silly (cutting two regulations for ever new one).

    Still the general trend is good. Walking the walk convinces people in a way that talking the talk does not.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  59. Who were all those people saying it didn’t matter who won between Mr Donald and that nasty Hillary woman? (LOL)

    Cruz Supporter (102c9a)

  60. And already the WaPo is talking about the filibuster as being the Bulwark of the Republic.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  61. Who were all those people saying it didn’t matter who won between Mr Donald and that nasty Hillary woman? (LOL)

    I never said that. I said that Donald was blowing the election and was the only candidate Hillary could beat. It turns out that Hillary was a worse candidate that I imagined and that Priebus’ people worked wonders. And still they barely won.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  62. A presidential term is four years, but a confirmation to the Supreme Court is forevah!
    Yay, President Mr Donald!

    Cruz Supporter (102c9a)

  63. Am reading that Durbin is for an up or down vote on the floor! No filibuster is likely, if true.

    Dhimmis may realize this is a hopeless hill upon which to fight. McConnell is almost certain to set a precedent by going nuclear. They will gamble that the next pick, probably a Kennedy replacement, will happen in a more favorable atmosphere, which could move McConnell off of his current certitude as to fighting for nominees. I think it would be a very shrewd and intelligent move by the Dhimmis.

    Ed from SFV (3400a5)

  64. Reagan is the favorite president for me in my lifetime by far. Even with his flaws it is hard for me to imagine any president better than him over all, or more suited and perfectly right for his time than Reagan was. But it is important also to keep in mind that he was president in a much different time–in a vastly different political and social milieu. And the world order looked a lot different then, and our country and countrymen seemed a lot different then. Some enemies of our nation and western civilization are still the same, but we also have some frightening new ones.

    Donald Trump is not standard issue politician (thank God) and is not a conservative ideologue. He’s going to spend money on infrastructure and other things to fulfill his campaign promises that many on the right are not going to like. He has some personal flaws that will probably cause him to make mistakes. I think in the fullness of time, though, we may see that he was the right president for this time kind of like Reagan was.

    elissa (904156)

  65. Open contest: Which Democrat Senator will first utter the words “Roll back the clock”?

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  66. OK, a third faction.

    You’re wrong about saying we’re wrong. See, we’re still right!

    WTP (094b61)

  67. Donald Trump is not standard issue politician (thank God) and is not a conservative ideologue.

    In retrospect, his strongest message during the campaign was that he was not part of the partisan standoff in DC, which had become VERY tiresome. And I expect on a few things (particularly health insurance & preexisting conditions) he is going to piss off the GOP. He has already said that LGBTQXYZ decisions and accommodations are not getting rolled back, and both parties have largely ignored it (although the LGBTQXYZ community still attacks him since they know no better).

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  68. Mr. President Trump makes the best choices

    I’ve always admired this about him

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  69. As someone reminded me, Ted Kennedy said terrible things about stouter, the most blank mange candidate imaginable

    narciso (d1f714)

  70. I think in the fullness of time, though, we may see that he was the right president for this time kind of like Reagan was.

    I sure agree with your sentiment tonight, elissa.

    Patricia (5fc097)

  71. he reminds me a lot of my dad

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  72. No, the main faction was:

    1. We don’t think he can win, in a slam dunk year. #WastedMoment
    2. We have no confidence that he will do what he says. #ConMan

    We were nearly right on #1, saved only by Hillary’s amazing incompetence.
    We are gaining some confidence now, but there was no reason to believe a man with Trump’s history of lying.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  73. Like I said, you’re still right.

    WTP (094b61)

  74. I just don’t like him.

    nk (dbc370)

  75. I think in the fullness of time, though, we may see that he was the right president for this time kind of like Reagan was.

    I would rather have run a Romney-with-balls. Trump remains the limited figure he is: incurious and ignorant of many things, egotistical and unreflective, impatient and bloody-minded. I won’t call him incompetent, but competence doesn’t exactly spring to mind either. A very mixed bag.

    It may work out, but I repeat: “walking on eggshells.”

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  76. Like I said, you’re still right.

    Glad you agree.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  77. Because, like 99% of America, you have your heads in Teh Matrix and see politics through a personality cult perspective.

    WTP (094b61)

  78. a Romney-with-balls

    lol

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  79. Kevin You twist yourself up into a pretzel like that, and your face is going to get stuck.

    papertiger (c8116c)

  80. And how long it be before the Dims (and their media lapdogs) say that Judge Gorsuch is “out of touch” with Americans?

    That’s the thing that REALLY gets me: Republicans have the White House, the Senate and the House. In addition, 33 states have Republican governors, and the party controls 32 state legislatures … and yet, the Dims (with the help of their media lapdogs) continue to insist that Republicans are the ones that are “out of touch.”

    Deuce Frehley (8afd8b)

  81. Judge Gorsuch is “out of touch” with Americans

    omg as if

    he went to harvard!

    he can stands in front of lakes with dwarves!

    he owns a pair of “blue jeans”

    his ball cap wears glasses!

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  82. ok that last one is kinda weird

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  83. You’re correct that all right leaning constitutionalist judges are painted as “out of touch” and “extreme”, Deuce. It goes with the territory. They’re very loud and obnoxious, but the media clearly has lost much of its persuasive power and the public has regained and decided to use much of its power as you pointed out.

    elissa (904156)

  84. what is this media of which you speak

    do they have hearty grog

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  85. i’m old enough to remember when that stalwart texan used up some of his political capital to nominate a lady named harriet miers

    Cruz Supporter (102c9a)

  86. @52. Hardly annoyed. This is the lone bone Trump has tossed to conservative ideologues. It’s a very pragmatic move so stop growling and chew on it to your delight. I’m all for it because the cout means nothing to Trump. And it’s likely all he’ll give them. But it’s the one they wanted.

    ‘Orignalists’ are myopic and I’ve always opposed the concept. But if you ascribe to adhering closely to the 250 year old quilled musings of land owning, horse-carriaged fops in silk pantaloons and powdered wigs who owned human beings, kept their women home churning butter, swilled warm ale from lead-pewter mugs washing down squirrel stew and peed in holes in the ground, more power to you. But the demands of a 21st century world has progressed far beyond the limited horizons of the 18th century universe. We have HDTV, too! Franklin would have traded a stove and bifocals for one!

    @43. We’ll see. But Trump doesn’t really care about the court, anyway, elissa. This was just another item to tick off the list of ‘I told you I’d do it’—- and timed nicely to change the topic in the media. Next up, Super Sunday. Trump’s on a roll. I’ve always felt tis bone was the one to throw to conservative ideologues and they’re pleased. See when the next one comes.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  87. Has anybody done any reconnaissance into the fever swamps this evening and is there anything to report?

    elissa (904156)

  88. == used up some of his political capital to nominate a lady named harriet miers==

    I will never understand that one.

    elissa (904156)

  89. @85. LOL ‘Trivial Pursuit’ in both name and game.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  90. So if an idealist tricks pragmatists into thinking that he’s a pragmatist does it make him a pragmatist because it’s the pragmatic thing to do?

    nk (dbc370)

  91. No caviling about the difference between an idealist and a whimsical flake.

    nk (dbc370)

  92. @90. The pragmatist threw the idealists a bone to chew. They barked, wagged tail and scurried off to chew on it. Now he can go eat his filet mignon dinner in peace.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  93. Kevin,

    he was not part of the partisan Republican standoff surrender in DC

    If we’d had a standoff, there would be something to signify the conflict. All we have to show for six years of Republican control of the House is an absence of any activity. Ditto two years of the Senate. Continuing resolutions are not a standoff when one Party set the standard for what was to be “continued”.

    Trump is the result. And he is a refreshing change. So far.

    BobStewartatHome (d1b2b6)

  94. It’s a rich vein of crazy, where do you want to start, Maddow who nearly spit pea soup?

    narciso (54b108)

  95. Are you saying Maddow was not prepared for this? She was expecting Larry Tribe?

    I kinda get why she was so crazed on election night because it genuinelyw as a surprise for her. But this?

    elissa (904156)

  96. elissa,

    Here is Schumer:

    SCOTUS justice must stand up to a Pres willing to bend the Constitution. Serious doubts on Judge Gorsuch’s ability to meet this standard.

    Dana (023079)

  97. That’s a knee slapper, there, Dana.

    elissa (904156)

  98. UPDATE x3 BY PATTERICO: Video.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  99. #87 elissa, I put on my grubby clothes, weathered boots, and clutched a rosary so I could stealthily observe the disorder over at The Daily Kos.
    My brief summary is that most of them are curently on suicide watch.

    (Oh please, Lord, grant each of them the courage to follow thru with it!) (LOL)

    P.S. After visiting that website, I feel like I need a shower and a treatment for head lice.

    Cruz Supporter (102c9a)

  100. Saw a nice quote from Gorsuch (and Scalia) in a tribute to Scalia after his death:

    “Judges should instead strive (if humanly and so imperfectly) to apply the law as it is, focusing backward, not forward, and looking to text, structure, and history to decide what a reasonable reader at the time of the events in question would have understood the law to be — not to decide cases based on their own moral convictions or the policy consequences they believe might serve society best. As Justice Scalia put it, “if you’re going to be a good and faithful judge, you have to resign yourself to the fact that you’re not always going to like the conclusions you reach. If you like them all the time, you’re probably doing something wrong.”

    http://www.nationalreview.com/article/444437/neil-gorsuch-antonin-scalia-supreme-court-textualist-originalist-heir

    harkin (afc7a6)

  101. That’s like walking into a colony of andromeda in a flight suit, not advisable.

    narciso (54b108)

  102. You were very brave to do that, Cruz Supporter. Thank you.

    elissa (904156)

  103. Caption contest on that video frame:

    Gorsuch thought-balloon: “That’s a pretty good toupee.”
    Mrs Gorsuch thought-balloon: “God, but our poodle is smarter!”

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  104. UPDATE x4 BY PATTERICO:

    Patterico (115b1f)

  105. Well, I’m probably not the most extreme of “NeverTrump” but I had little confidence in Trump for a Supreme Court nominee. Damn little.

    But this is probably the best I could hope for. I actually sat in the audience of a 10th Circuit panel oral argument that had Gorsuch on the panel, not knowing who he was at the time, in the Byron White Courthouse. (Can’t even remember the case, I was bored waiting for my trial call at the bankruptcy court across the corner)

    And my Con Law II professor in law school also clerked for Byron White, in that most trivial of coincidences.

    SPQR (a3a747)

  106. To quote Stephen Green – This is the second Supreme Court justice from Colorado, eat dirt Wyoming.

    SPQR (a3a747)

  107. Love it when President Trump plays fetch.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  108. Patterico, remind me again how Trump is the same as Clinton. How Supreme Court picks werent important and that Trump was a liar. Yeah, sure.

    Clinton would have picked Gorsuch too I’m sure.

    Like I’ve said for months…

    TRUMP > Clinton.

    No matter how you slice it.

    Thank God he won.

    Jack (bf892a)

  109. How Supreme Court picks werent important

    Fake news. Never said it. You’re making things up.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  110. #108

    Give him a minute and he’ll get back on the “hold his feet to the fire” program

    Not that it matters to Trump at all. Trump is the type of person that when his feet are held to fire, just adds more fire.

    I’ve not understood the whole Never Trump movement, but the host seems to have a good case of it. That said, he’s always been fairly stand up in giving credit when he decides it is due.

    My biggest issue right now with the host was the short hiatus from commenting on any Trump post that first ended with a *ding*

    steveg (5508fb)

  111. I wanted to ask for a show of hands, and this seems like the day we’re liable to get a few drunken confessions.

    So how many of you, despite the carping and grousing, after downing the bottle on election day, at 2:A.M. ended up pulling the lever for Coyote Ugly Donald Trump, the next morning chewing off your arm so as not to wake the “I Voted” sticker as you tip toed out of the room?

    You can tell me. I’ll keep it secret.

    papertiger (c8116c)

  112. Has anybody done any reconnaissance into the fever swamps this evening and is there anything to report?

    elissa (904156) — 1/31/2017 @ 8:01 pm

    Huffpo is foaming at the mouth.

    NJRob (43d957)

  113. What’s up with that, Jack? We’re having that rare moment when all planets have aligned. Enjoy this.

    papertiger (c8116c)

  114. @ ThOR, #26:

    You’re not happy with his other nominees, Demosthenes?

    No, not all of them. I’ve already expressed my thoughts on Tillerson elsewhere, for example. And although he doesn’t qualify as a nominee, I’ll never be happy with Steve Bannon.

    Or that Trump, unlike virtually all pols, seems intent on fulfilling his campaign promises?

    Being a man of your word is generally praiseworthy, and I’ll be the first to admit that I thought he wouldn’t be as much of one as he is proving to be.

    On the other hand, note the “generally” above. If I tell you that one of these days I’m going to poison your dog, and then I follow through, I doubt you’ll go around telling people that at least I’m an honest guy. Similarly, some of my objections to Trump were — and still are — based on the fact that some of his promises shouldn’t be kept. In these first few days in office, he has indeed announced plans to move ahead with his border wall, which I think is fine…by announcing a tariff on Mexican imports, which is not. I thought Mexicans were supposed to be paying for the border wall, but those tariff costs are just going to end up being passed along to Americans, as anyone with a basic grasp of Econ 101 knows. And don’t get me started on the “brilliance” of the travel ban, which is just not something that can be effectively enacted by EO.

    I admit that I’m liking Trump’s actions more than I thought I would. But some of what I’ve seen also supports my belief that I was right to be worried. I have warmed to the man…a bit…but I am still not a supporter of his. If he learns from these early missteps, while continuing to make choices like Gorsuch*, then I’ll probably vote for him for re-nomination and for re-election.

    Then again, if his more vocal supporters continue to be dipwads…

    * (This assumes Gorsuch will pan out. His record suggests he will, but after Roberts, I take every Supreme Court nominee’s record with a grain of salt. Roberts was no Souter…his record suggested he would be a careful, prudential conservative, which I thought would be fine even if I would rather have had another Scalia or Thomas. But no judicial conservative could have voted to uphold Obamacare, no matter the grounds.)

    Demosthenes (09f714)

  115. In reflection, I probably could have just posted this link to ThOR, and saved myself some time.

    http://www.redstate.com/absentee/2017/02/01/the-gorsuch-moment/

    Demosthenes (09f714)

  116. In other news that raid into yemen, may have been leaked by deep state figures

    narciso (54b108)

  117. The story comes from arkin, so caveat lector

    narciso (54b108)

  118. #114 Demosthenes,

    John Roberts didn’t have a very extensive paper trail at the time of his nomination, as pointed out by Ann Coulter in this column written in 2005.
    http://www.anncoulter.com/columns/2005-07-20.html

    He had only served as Judge for two years at the time he was nominated. On the other hand, Gorsuch has ten years on the bench.

    Ultimately, the election outcome was going to be between Mr Donald & that nasty Hillary woman.
    Gorsuch should be compared to whom that nasty Hillary woman might have nominated.

    Cruz Supporter (102c9a)

  119. Then again, if his more vocal supporters continue to be dipwads…

    You know who concurred with Roberts on Obamacare? Anthony Kennedy.

    You know who issued a general amnesty for illegals, encouraging the next wave of millions to invade and ruin forever my state, filling it to the effing brim with foreigners with no allegiance to the United States at all?

    (Poll:68 percent of Californians oppose calexit)
    Lookie there. A headline that got it 100% right. Californians oppose, the 32% of foreign imports you uniparty types stuffed our ballot boxes with are totally cool with Balkanizing our country.

    Don’t you dare strike a pose like you’re better than. I have forty six years of legislative and judicial activism that says different.

    papertiger (c8116c)

  120. Gorsuch should be compared to the Justice Trump promised he would appoint so people would vote for him and not the nasty Hillary woman.

    Gorsuch meets the comparison. End of discussion.

    nk (dbc370)

  121. If you’re going to sit back and keep your hands in your pockets* clutching your ill gotten loot collected from the brow of H-1b imports, judging by your voting history that suits me fine. Keep them there, moron.

    * do ass-less chaps have pockets?

    papertiger (c8116c)

  122. Mr. Trump has amazing appointing skills

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  123. Demosthenes (09f714) — 2/1/2017 @ 4:10 am

    If I tell you that one of these days I’m going to poison your dog, and then I follow through, I doubt you’ll go around telling people that at least I’m an honest guy. Similarly, some of my objections to Trump were — and still are — based on the fact that some of his promises shouldn’t be kept.

    At least you have this: Maybe it means that he won’t go beyond them.

    One of the things to worry about is something that wasn’t a campaign promise, but an approach – foreign policy vs a vs Russia. There’s always the danger that he might try to make an alliance with Vladimir Putin to fight ISIS – but it wasn’t a campaign promise. At least it wasn’t a campaign promise to do more than try. Donald Trump has repeatedly stated that he doesn’t know how this is going to go, but it wolld be a very good thing if he could work together with Russia against ISIS.

    Now, it is a fact that Russia wasn’t much interested in fighting ISIS, and U.S. strategy till now is to keep Russia out of it. They do too much random bombing, double cross people they are negotiating with, and their goal is to restore Assad to power in as much of Syria as he can get, and above all, prevent any entity too friendly to the United States and western democracies and general decency and respect for life (because they’ll be friendly with the United States) from controlling anything.

    The U.S. and Russia have, or had, quite different plans for what replaces ISIS, and because of that, and the Russian manner of combat, they can’t, or couldn’t, work together, except maybe to divide territory and air space. Now Trump has ordered the military to divise a plan to defeat ISIS.

    We don’t know where that’s going yet. Meanwhile, Russia seems to be restarting the fighting in eastern Ukraine.

    Sammy Finkelman (8a673f)

  124. What are you going to do with all that gold? If you can’t eat it then why did you hoard it for? Why didn’t you give it to your men, so they are ready to die for you?

    – the Mongol general, Halagu, to the king of Baghdad, Mustasim, after sacking the city [YouTube – Genghis Khan vs. The Muslims], upon collecting the hidden gold hoard gathered for 500 years by the Muslims.

    Then the General had the King stomped to death by horses. There’s a lesson in there for the captains of silicon valley, I think.

    papertiger (c8116c)

  125. A problematical campaign promise for Donald Trump:

    He has made close to contradictory promises regarding the “Dreamers” – to revoke DACA but also let the vast majority of them stay here legally (which could be resolved by a piece of legislation) The other shoe has yet to drop there.

    In these first few days in office, he has indeed announced plans to move ahead with his border wall,

    Dipping a toe into that, actually.

    which I think is fine…by announcing a tariff on Mexican imports, which is not. I thought Mexicans were supposed to be paying for the border wall, but those tariff costs are just going to end up being passed along to Americans, as anyone with a basic grasp of Econ 101 knows.

    There’s an argument being made that Americans won’t, because the value of the peso will drop, and so the goods will sell in the United States for the same price as before! But nobody can count on such things, and a drop in the value of the peso has all sorts of remifications. He’s actually left it up in he air how exactly it would be paid for.

    Republicans in Congress had proposed that the cost of goods sold not be deductible for imports, and the revenue from goods sold be excluded from income for exports, but Trump doesn’t seem to like that. Trump says it is too commplicated and it certainly results in businesses declaring profits to the IRS when they really had losses. A business would have to have two sets of books at a minimum. The one filed with the IRS would not be the one to show a bank. And anyway, that’s not targeted at Mexico.

    Sammy Finkelman (8a673f)

  126. If one believes vox; snorfle daca and dapa Wil not be renewed only current applications will be processed.

    narciso (54b108)

  127. Greetings:

    Me, I noticed that they kept Joe Biden away from the Judge’s wife.

    11B40 (6abb5c)

  128. Jeez, papertiger, is there any nationality that the Muslims do not harbor a grudge against?!

    Patricia (5fc097)

  129. That’s a rhetorical question. I recognize from prior experience.

    papertiger (c8116c)

  130. ==That’s a rhetorical question.==

    But Sammeh will answer it shortly.

    elissa (c919ad)

  131. The exact same ones that Lutherans do not harbor a grudge against.

    nk (dbc370)

  132. The exact same ones that Lutherans do not harbor a grudge against.

    I don’t think we know the same Lutherans.

    WTP (5b282a)

  133. We could start with the ones that killed 12 million people in concentration camps and spread out from there.

    nk (dbc370)

  134. Patricia (5fc097) — 2/1/2017 @ 8:42 am

    is there any nationality that the Muslims do not harbor a grudge against?!

    Latin Americans, most people in Afica south of the Bantu line * , Japanese, Koreans and Eskimos.

    Actually, they don’t seem to be too interested in attacking any eastern Asians, but you do have the cause of the Uighers against China. By “the” Moslems I suppose you mean radical Islamists.

    * The orange and green areas on this map:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:African_language_families.png

    Sammy Finkelman (8a673f)

  135. @papertiger:“What are you going to do with all that gold? If you can’t eat it then why did you hoard it for? Why didn’t you give it to your men, so they are ready to die for you?”

    Macchiavelli’s comment was that nations who have iron but not gold have no trouble collecting gold when they want it. Nations that have gold without iron can rent iron, but iron finds it easier to collect your gold than the enemy’s.

    Best of course to have plenty of your own, of both.

    Gabriel Hanna (64d4e1)

  136. Well, there was bombing in Argentina, but that was against Jews. You would probably have to exclude Jews from all those areas.

    Attacks are pretty widespread and depend upon opportunity and PR value, in my estimation.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Islamist_terrorist_attacks

    Patricia (5fc097)

  137. Another campaign promise Trump has not dealt with is to ceclare China acurrency manipulator. The problem is that it is manipulating the currency the other way now. The cureency may actually be undervalued relative to purchasing power – but that’s because when anybody gets a certain amount of money and security in China they often seek further security by trying to get the money – and themselves and/or their chidlren – out of the country and away from the possibly arbitary rule of the Chinese government.

    In other news, Trump again said today that he might personally intervene to stop Chicago gang violence. What’s he going to do? Prosecute gang leaders for income tax evasion? He could maybe arget certain areas, and let them plead guilty in exchange for leaving Chicago and supervised probation.

    He praised Frederick Douglass as a role model.

    Sammy Finkelman (8a673f)

  138. @Sammy: the cause of the Uighers against China.

    That’s a national issue more than a religious one (I’ve known some Uighurs). They want to speak their own language and follow their own customs and have some degree of self-determination. They’re not primarily religiously motivated.

    Gabriel Hanna (64d4e1)

  139. the cause of the Uighers against China.

    Gabriel Hanna (64d4e1) — 2/1/2017 @ 11:49 am

    That’s a national issue more than a religious one (I’ve known some Uighurs).

    It is, it is, it is. But a few terrorists may have latched onto it – as they are srarting to do, and more vigrously, in Burma, and the Chinese government is trying to accuse all opposition of being terrorists.

    A few Uighers were in Afghanistan and didn’t know what they were getting into, and were not indoctrinated, but wound up in Guantanamo and were finally released – with apprehension in the countries outside of the United States they were sent to.

    But by and large terrroists do not target Chinese, sp I really shod include Chinese as non-enemies. There are always different kinds of terrorists. The attacks in Argentina were actually done by the government of Iran.

    They want to speak their own language and follow their own customs and have some degree of self-determination. They’re not primarily religiously motivated.

    You’re talking about the people. However, terrorist organziaers may attempt to spread their net. However, they can’t do that very successfully in a tyrannical regime like that of China.

    The Chinese government might even want to help them along a little bit so they have something to complain about to show the west. But Vladimir Putin is the world champion in that regard.

    China might actually be secretly supporting terrorism (it is close to Pakistan’s rough mlitary intelligence agency) but they never want Chinse people to be attacked. Sometimes that’s a little difficult to manage, but there’s never any terrorist propaganda against China I think you can say.

    Sammy Finkelman (8a673f)

  140. @Sammy:the Chinese government is trying to accuse all opposition of being terrorists.

    True.

    But by and large terrroists do not target Chinese

    Yet. This probably has to do with the vigorous repression and retaliation that they know would result if they tried it.

    Gabriel Hanna (64d4e1)

  141. You note I said “the cause” I didn’t say the Uighers themselves.

    Sammy Finkelman (8a673f)

  142. The terrorists might be he recipient of Chinese money, very, very well laundered.

    Sammy Finkelman (8a673f)

  143. We could start with the ones that killed 12 million people in concentration camps and spread out from there.

    OK, so I don’t come here often but perhaps I misunderstand…or possibly it’s just the ‘not-logic’…are you saying Lutherans killed 12 million…or that they are cool with 12 million being killed?

    WTP (5b282a)

  144. WTP, it is more the latter (cool with). China is not attacked for the same reasons as Italy is not much attacked: propensity for retribution and, in Italy’s case, also the underworld’s role in trafficking.

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  145. Lutherans i have a Lutheran pesto recipe it’s so tasty and really helps you stretch that grocery dollar

    here is what you need: you need a package of pasta i like the whole wheat thin spaghetti

    ok start your water boiling while we throw all the sauce ingredients into the blender (remember not to go crazy on the water volume cause of the secret to ANY pasta is combining some of the starchy pasta water with the sauce)

    the only fussy thing you really have to have is fresh spinach – a cup or so but I don’t really measure anything on this one it’s kinda duh – so throw that in the blender

    then you add a drained can of peas

    a fistful of two of chopped walnuts (i favor two)

    some olive oil – maybe a quarter cup

    and then i just use garlic powder and a seasoning blend – getting the amount of garlic that’s to your taste is the only really thinky part of this process – by all means use fresh garlic I just really like how you can for reals get all this together while you boil the water and bam

    ok now use a cup or ladel to add just enough pasta water to your blender to get your stuffs to blend

    drain your pasta and combine – it’s ok to have pesto leftover you’ll figure something yummy to do with it

    it’s so good as is i usually eschew any parmesan and just add chicken breast i’ve done earlier in the week but shrimps or grilled vegetables are nice accompaniments as well

    praise Lutheran Jesus!

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  146. a fistful *or* two of chopped walnuts i mean

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  147. @WTP:are you saying Lutherans killed 12 million…or that they are cool with 12 million being killed?

    Lutherans (and Catholics) led by Adolf Hitler, yeah. Germans didn’t quit going to church from 1932 to 1945. They remained in the religion they had always had during those years.

    I don’t think nk is saying that Lutherans are somehow uniquely evil. I certainly don’t think that. We have this sort of legend that Germany got taken over by demons or something, which is easier than facing the reality that it’s rather ordinary people who can find it in themselves to perpetrate atrocities, and that this happens more often and more easily than we like to think.

    Gabriel Hanna (64d4e1)

  148. Look, I hate Lutherans as much as the next Methodist. And Baptists maybe more so. And don’t get me started on the (Roman) Catholics, Unitarians, Mormons, and Zoroastrians. And I don’t excuse Germans for being dumb-ass, know-it-all, Arbeit-Macht-Frei Germans. They toilet trained me for chrissakes. I have the scars. But to bring up their Lutheranism, as opposed to say, their appetite for limburger and onion sammiches and methadone, as a contributing factor to the mass murder of millions… ignoring that many more Germans put their lives on the line to stop old Uncle Adolph, as opposed to what I see coming from the Muzzie lands… is disingenuous hogwash.

    And I say this as someone who recognizes that most of the Muslims that I know (like five or something) have values, family and otherwise, that are much closer to mine than the vagina-hat or snowflake people.

    WTP (5b282a)

  149. 147. But they were really very secular.

    They were secular already in the 19th century.

    They never let religious values influence what they did.

    Once they were ready to support the First World War, anything was possible.

    Sammy Finkelman (6f9f42)

  150. @WTP:But to bring up their Lutheranism, as opposed to say, their appetite for limburger and onion sammiches and methadone

    This is fundamentally the point nk is making.

    ignoring that many more Germans put their lives on the line to stop old Uncle Adolph,

    Erm, no, not really. There were might have been hundreds, or thousands, working against him but millions were going along.

    Gabriel Hanna (64d4e1)

  151. Millions of Lutherans opposed Hitler. Countless (tens, hundreds of?) thousands died trying to stop him. Hitler was from a (Roman) Catholic family, BTW. Why not blame them for him? Or Mussolini more so. And buddhists for Hirohito. Granted, many many Muzzies oppose the ISIS, etc. But I don’t think quite so many Germans thought they were dying for Martin Luther and The Ninety-Five Thems.

    WTP (094b61)

  152. WTP, each man’s duty is the King’s, but each man’s soul is his own.

    felipe (023cc9)

  153. Oh, I blame Buddhists too. All told, within living memory, maybe as many as 80 times more Americans have been killed by Lutherans and Buddhists than have been killed by Muslims.

    nk (dbc370)

  154. nk (dbc370) — 2/1/2017 @ 3:15 pm

    You sly dog, “within living memory.”

    felipe (023cc9)

  155. How about atheism? Millions killed in the name of anti-religion. And on down the line. Humans are imperfect. But to deny that the culture and/or religion of the Islamic world is not the root of the problem, and I would even argue that it is the nomadic culture from which Islam evolved that has considerable bearing here, but in so far as thinking people are able to think, to say that one of these religions should be excused for the responsibility for the violence and suffering in this world, even within the Islamic world itself…absurd.

    Each mans duty is his own, btw.

    WTP (094b61)

  156. Atheists, too, but the numbers there are hard to determine. They say that there are no atheists in foxholes. And pagans. Let’s not forget pagans. How many Americans were killed by Indians?

    nk (dbc370)

  157. Well, WTP, I’ve thrown you the rope, but you’re the one has to climb out. You and nk have fun in there.

    Gabriel Hanna (64d4e1)

  158. 😉

    nk (dbc370)

  159. No rope necessary. If you believe that the relationship between Islam and ISIS level Islamofascism parallels that between Lutheranism and Nazism, the only hole is the one in your head.

    WTP (094b61)

  160. Luther’s fundamental insight was that faith alone saves, Calvin had the notion of the elect, and Henry tutor thought himself wise.

    narciso (d1f714)

  161. Norse gods like the thule society or hydra, he want keen on Christianity.

    narciso (d1f714)

  162. The Nazis used religion the same way Democrats use racism. Doctrine didn’t enter into it.
    They just needed a familiar hook to recruit enough rubes so they could plausibly claim a right to seize power.

    It’s how they ended up with incongruities like blond haired blue eyed Jewish volunteer Werner Goldberg on military recruiting posters.

    papertiger (c8116c)

  163. All told, within living memory, maybe as many as 80 times more Americans have been killed by Lutherans and Buddhists than have been killed by Muslims.

    nk (dbc370) — 2/1/2017 @ 3:15 pm

    Which shows our policy of not importing a bunch of Muslims has worked out really well.

    papertiger (c8116c)

  164. @ Cruz Supporter, #118:

    Yes, I agree with you on the paper trail. And we also agree that even if Gorsuch is another Anthony Kennedy, he’ll be better than a Hillary Clinton nominee, or Merrick Garland.

    @ papertiger, #119 and #121:

    I am not a fan of Anthony Kennedy either. So I have no idea why you are going after me. But since you are, I’ll just chalk you up as another Trumper that doesn’t understand how tariffs work.

    Demosthenes (09f714)

  165. Tie ballgame. Demos you’re missing a heck of a game on account of bygones.

    papertiger (c8116c)

  166. I can do more than one thing at once.

    Demosthenes (09f714)

  167. Good. Glad you’re not missing it. btw if it’s Kennedy my complaint was his ruling on Obamacare, not tariffs.

    Could be you’re doing two things at once, but none of them well.

    papertiger (c8116c)

  168. @ papertiger, #168:

    Well, since I wasn’t talking at all about Anthony Kennedy at #114, before you decided to go after me at #118 by railing about some of his past rulings, I had no idea what you were going on about. And since I had slapped Trump for his promise to build a wall and make Mexico pay for it (by sticking a tariff on imports that will only hurt American citizens), and your two replies had to do with illegal immigration into California, I figured the tariffs thing must have been what was really sticking in your butt.

    Demosthenes (09f714)

  169. Sorry, that should have been “go after me at #119.” Cruz Supporter was talking to me at #118, but he was both a) being civil, and b) demonstrating that he understood what I was talking about.

    Demosthenes (09f714)

  170. A tax on remissions, as suggested by derby y Ortiz, referenced earlier might be most effectivd

    narciso (d1f714)


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