Patterico's Pontifications

1/21/2017

Ken White on Punching Nazis

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 10:59 am



So Richard Spencer, a white nationalist, was giving someone an interview yesterday when someone came up and sucker-punched him. Here is the video:

I was in an online discussion yesterday with people who were debating whether this is awesome or bad. The general consensus seemed to be that it was awesome. I said it was bad.

Ken White has written a post about it which you should read in its entirety. He makes several sensible points. Ten in all. Let me quote the first five as a springboard for discussion.

1. Nazis are scum.

2. Principles are in a constant struggle with viscera. I want punching Nazis to be acceptable, and find the spectacle of Nazis getting punched to be viscerally satisfying. Jesus Christ and John Donne aside, Nazi suffering does not move me.

3. We have social and legal norms, including “don’t punch people because their speech is evil, and don’t punish them legally.” Applying those norms is not a judgment that the speech in question is valuable, or decent, or morally acceptable. We apply the norms out of a recognition of human frailty — because the humanity that will be deciding whom to punch and whom to prosecute is the same humanity that produced the Nazis in the first place, and has a well-established record of making really terrible decisions. You — the bien-pensant reader, confident that sensible punchers and prosecutors can sort out Nazis from the not-Nazis — will likely not be doing the punching or prosecuting. The punching and prosecuting will be done by a rogue’s gallery of vicious idiots, including people who think that Black Lives Matter should be indicted under RICO and that it’s funny to send women death threats if they write a column you don’t like.

4. In embracing a norm that sucker-punching Nazis is acceptable, remember that you live in a nation of imbeciles that loves calling people Nazis. Also bear in mind that certain aspects of our culture — modern academic culture, for instance — encourages people to think that you’re a Nazi if you eat veal or disagree with them about the minimum wage.

5. By the way, right now there are tons of people right now who would welcome an emerging social norm that it’s acceptable to punch, say, Black Lives Matter protesters. I know Nazis aren’t remotely comparable. You do too. They disagree. And you’ve handed them the rhetorical tools to defend themselves, and handed the broader populace an excuse to look away. Well done.

Now. I recognize that the comment thread is likely to devolve into a discussion about whether Richard Spencer is a Nazi. Ken White sets forth his points with the assumption that Spencer is one. I don’t really disagree — but if it makes you happier, everywhere he says “Nazi” you can substitute “white nationalist and racial separatist who claims he is not a Nazi but favorably quotes Nazi propaganda and wants to have an all-white state in North America.”

I don’t believe in sucker-punching those guys. What about you?

97 Responses to “Ken White on Punching Nazis”

  1. Those who approve of punching Richard Spencer open the door for lynching uppity negros.

    ropelight (82fc11)

  2. Sucker-punching anyone is a cowardly move, no matter how deserving they may be.

    JVW (6e49ce)

  3. this was way way way disproportionate to any conceivable thread the little man presented

    cowardly’s not even a good word

    the person what struck Mr. Spencer is stupid ignorant and lacking rudimentary self-mastery

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  4. If it’s okay for X to beat up Spencer, it must equally be okay for Spencer to beat up X.

    Part of the reason the real Nazis came to power was that they beat up political opponents. But their Leftist opponents were equally willing to beat up them up, and in the end that made the Nazis more palatable, because people who wanted law and order were willing to see an authoritarian impose order.

    Kishnevi (86e9bc)

  5. ugh i mean threat not thread

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  6. I support the death penalty in theory – some people have forfeited their right to be treated as human beings – but I don’t support the death penalty in practice because I don’t trust fallible human beings to decide who deserves to live and who deserves to die. I trust even less people who have no doubts as to their suitability for judging such matters. If you think you’re qualified to judge who’s free to speak and who’s not, you’re the last person I want making that decision because you’re almost certainly mistaken as to your qualifications.

    Jerryskids (16a4d5)

  7. == right now there are tons of people right now who would welcome an emerging social norm that it’s acceptable to punch, say, Black Lives Matter protesters.==

    I did not know this. And I do not believe this is true. I think people in general regardless of politics are not wanting to normalize vigilante justice behaviors at all. I do think most people want individuals in the violent, property smashing, fire setting, cop ambushing wing of the BLM movement to be better reined in and properly charged for actual crimes by the justice department and local police departments, and also that they not be so casually treated as sympathetic “mostly peaceful” demonstrators by vast swaths of media.

    So while I heartily agree with Ken’s larger conclusion about not sucker-punching, I can’t quite go along with some of the path he took to get there.

    elissa (c26030)

  8. Yes they arose of the freikorps which came as a reaction to failed communist insurgents, more representative was the shooting at the mil event

    narciso (d1f714)

  9. I think Ken’s argument is the right one, and I thank him for voicing the difficulty I’ve had in responding to this; I found it viscerally pleasing to see Spencer get punched *even though I know punching him was wrong*.

    aphrael (3f0569)

  10. you’re not supposed to hit

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  11. reminds me of Dave, the drive-by commenter, from the “Children of Republican Politicians Will Always Be Targeted” thread.

    Same level of moral rigor.

    papertiger (c8116c)

  12. Kisnevi, the National Socialist Workers Party members were “Leftists” also. They just didn’t think that Moscow should be their guiding light. Hence, “National”. And this played into the racial aspect of Nazi belief, which was an outgrowth of Progressive eugenics developed right here in the U. S. of A. by Woodrow Wilson and his followers. Who were Leftists too. Why join the “international” movement when everyone else was fit only for slavery?

    Just because the USSR and Germany went to war doesn’t mean that fundamental aspects of their ideology weren’t similar. Both countries were incapable of functioning without absolute central control. The Gestapo and the KGB were their outreach programs to the ordinary citizenry.

    BobStewartatHome (c24491)

  13. “Wheels” Roosevelt was a Nazi according to your loose criterion.

    papertiger (c8116c)

  14. Happyfeet: no, you’re not. And it’s a moral failing, I think, to take visceral pleasure in watching someone get hit. It’s no easy thing, to acknowledge that moral failing in myself.

    aphrael (3f0569)

  15. And the thug who threw the punch should be in jail right now. Hopefully he has some assets that can be seized to compensate the victim. But we give unions a wink and a nod for such activities, so the likelihood of this happening is probably strongly affected by locale.

    BobStewartatHome (c24491)

  16. In fact “Wheels” was the ultimate Nazi, because he was good at it. He made it work sans ovens.

    papertiger (c8116c)

  17. question what’s the moral difference between walking up and sucker-punching the idiot third-whirl commie slut-pope and walking up and sucker-punching Mr. Spencer?

    answer there is no moral difference

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  18. Did you catch the face on the assailant? He was wearing a mask, a bandanna, but I’m pretty sure it was ‘Dingy’ Harry Reid.

    papertiger (c8116c)

  19. Mr. aphrael i totally disagree

    it’s 100% ok if you take vicarious pleasure in this

    if it had been John McCain getting clocked instead of Richard Spencer I would’ve been like oh my gosh that is so pleasurable to see

    but the key thing is you’d never hit someone like that or encourage anyone else to

    and that’s as moral and decent as a pikachu gotta be

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  20. The compulsion to attack BLM thugs grows out of frustration with lack of enforcement by our authorities. There is a “social contract”, and if our authorities do not honor their duties under this contract, then all bets are off. This is the dangerous game Mr. Obama played for eight years. He undermined the trust the populace had for a fair and just legal system. Thank goodness Clinton wasn’t elected to compound the damage.

    BobStewartatHome (c24491)

  21. Naw. The key fact I think is if Aphrael were there he would have;

    A. prevented the assault by imposing himself between the attacker and the defenseless speaker.

    B. having failed that, aided in the capture of the assailant by grabbing “Dirty” Harry by the backpack.

    C. provided testimony toward the apprehension of the assailant by legal authorities.

    Maybe all of the above.

    papertiger (c8116c)

  22. Happyfeet, at 17: I agree that there’s no moral difference; both are equally wrong.

    > And the thug who threw the punch should be in jail right now

    Agreed, although I strongly suspect that it’s hard to identify him. How do you pick the right culprit out of a crowd, unless you caught him in the act?

    Which is to say, this is the kind of situation where I think there’s a real risk of apprehending the wrong person and railroading him so that *someone* is punished, and I wouldn’t be surprised if nobody who was there got a good enough look to be a reliable source of subsequent ID — unless the guy was apprehended in the act, which I think we would have heard about.

    aphrael (3f0569)

  23. Punching anyone – unless one is defending oneself – is unacceptable. That should be obvious. Punching people because you disagree with their speech or their written words can never be tolerated in a civil society. That shouldn’t even need to be said. The sucker-punching coward – face covered and quick to scurry away like the fascist rodent he is – ought to be identified and prosecuted for assault.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  24. I would certainly have done (C). I’d like to think that I’d have done (B), but it’s hard to know for sure if that’s an honest evaluation of my future behavior or an aspiration to which I would fail in practice. I’m unlikely to have done (A) because i’m unlikely to have noticed the assault coming.

    aphrael (3f0569)

  25. And it doesn’t – and shouldn’t – matter if the fellow sucker punched is a Nazi, or a Communist, or a progressive, or a conservative, or an LGBLT, or a nihilist, or a etc., etc., and so forth.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  26. That this is even up for debate is a sign of a sick society.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  27. That’s a sorry on-line bunch.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  28. We’re constantly told that fascism is descending on the right, and yet it somehow always manages to land and act-out on the left.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  29. “In November, the racism and anti-Semitism of the alt-right movement were on display in Washington when its members gathered to celebrate Trump’s victory.
    Atlantic magazine, which is recording footage of Spencer for a documentary, published a video of the same event showing audience members apparently giving the Nazi salute.
    “Hail Trump! Hail our people! Hail victory!” Spencer declared.
    His remarks then were filled with racist imagery — including references to “the black political machines” and Latino housekeepers — as he bashed Democratic nominee Hillary Clinton’s minority supporters
    .”

    — CNN 8 hours ago

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  30. How dare he!

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  31. In that light cair seems awfully ininterested in the white entitled crazy dowager march

    narciso (d1f714)

  32. As big a scumbag the Nazi’s are/were, they were pikers compared to Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot in killing people. The next sucker punch should be directed at one of the Soros financed a$$holes.

    oldgeezer (9a3891)

  33. Contrast this with the old clip of Buzz Aldrin clocking the fellow in the face who was following him around screaming that he was a fraud.

    There, Aldrin tried to avoid the guy for several minutes. That said, technically he punched someone who had not touched him and it could be considered assault and/or battery.

    But no jury would convict, and I probably would have rejected that case had it been brought to me.

    This one, I’d prosecute. But I hate Spencer and his views.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  34. Two out of three ain’t bad, Aphrael.

    papertiger (c8116c)

  35. As big a scumbag the Nazi’s are/were, they were pikers compared to Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot in killing people. The next sucker punch should be directed at one of the Soros financed a$$holes.

    There is the support for sucker-punching that I was seeing amongst the group I was discussing this with (as described in my post).

    As with so many other tactics, there are plenty of nasty and/or violent tactics supported by some people on the right as well as the left, as long as the target is someone we feel virtuous in disliking.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  36. It’s a moral wrong, but only to a moderate degree. People sometimes think (or assume without thinking about it) that if morality is objective, it doesn’t admit of degrees. But of course that’s false.

    Putting a dollar in a tip jar to support medical research is good, but it doesn’t make you a hero. Punching Richard Spencer in the face is wrong, but it’s not like stealing Tiny Tim’s crutches. Plus there’s the utilitarian value of proving enjoyment to the puncher and to many who see the incident in person and on video, which partially mitigates the wrongness of sucker punching the creepo.

    Brian Sament (f4801c)

  37. Punching a Nazi activates the Nazi’s right to defend himself.

    Do we want to go there?

    shipwreckedcrew (56b591)

  38. California rained/is raining on Obama’s “don’t let the door hit ya” parade.

    Obamas arrive in California for rain-delayed vacation
    – Los Angeles Times

    Strong rain and winds forced the plane carrying the Obama family to keep circling over the Palm Springs International Airport before it was finally diverted to March Air Reserve Base in Riverside County.

    The bringer of light has definitely left the building.
    http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/Kxw7Yzw680s/maxresdefault.jpg [Nelson Laugh jpg]

    papertiger (c8116c)

  39. “Should we use nasty, underhanded, violent, or otherwise savory attacks against the left when the left has used them against us first?” has been a recurring issue at this blog.

    My general answer is no.

    It has not always been a popular answer.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  40. No golf for you! – said the Palm Springs putt Nazi.

    We reserve Sunshine for ex-President’s with a legacy, Barry.

    papertiger (c8116c)

  41. Imminent violence is always descending on people who think BLM is a racist deplorable movement but falling on those who are knee jerk progressives.

    James (3e5abc)

  42. Trump is inaugurated and the California draught is lifted. Coincidence?

    Will Tulare Lake reappear?

    BobStewartatHome (c24491)

  43. @33. 100% Correct.

    Ol’Buzz had been trying to avoid this guy for a long time. He had been ‘invading his space’ and harassing him repeatedly in public– even while dining, challenging him about faking the moon landing and so on.

    But the sucker-punch thrown at John Glenn in 1990 was identical to this incident w/t kraut.

    You could probably find the tape clip on YouTube- I’ve seen it years ago- but this UPI story sums it up:

    On October 25, 1989 Senator John Glenn, D-Ohio was taping a television interview following a tree-planting ceremony at the Smithsonian Institution. Suddenly, a well-dressed man walked up and punched the Senator square on the jaw. The assailant, Michael John Breen, 31, was promptly arrested after being detained by a stunned Glenn. Breen later told authorities that in recent months he had dreams revealing future events, and that he only hit Glenn to gain attention for his revelations. Among these revelations was a vision of a massive earthquake in California which the government knew about but refused to warn residents of.
    An affidavit filed in U.S. District Court said Breen told officials that he was “guided” by God to try to alert Vice President Quayle about the coming events during a visit to the Capitol.
    According to police reports, Mr. Breen was charged with assaulting a member of Congress, a felony, and was held for psychiatric evaluation. His lawyer, Barry Stiller, declined to discuss the case but described his client as ”just a very nice young man who I think is a little confused.”
    Glenn’s only response, “I haven’t been hit like that in 30 years.”

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  44. With concealed carry you can bet I won’t get hit twice.

    jim (a9b7c7)

  45. All at once the clouds have parted. Light streams down in bright unbroken beams.” – [YouTube Jacob’s Ladder, Rush]

    Follow men’s eyes
    As they look to the skies
    [jpg]
    The shifting shafts of shining
    Weave the fabric of their dreams

    papertiger (c8116c)

  46. Madonna furthers the cause, today.

    “YES I’m angry, YES I’m outraged, yes I have thought an awful lot about blowing up the White House, but I know that this won’t change anything,” she explained to the crowd.
    “We must love one another or die,” Madonna continued, quoting the poet W. H. Auden.

    Before the singer led the crowd into a chant about being ready to make a sacrifice for change, she also let a few F-bombs slip on live television.

    “To our detractors that insist that this march will never add up to anything: F–k you!” she shouted, to the shock of the women standing behind her at the podium.
    CNN, which broadcast her remarks and performance live, were unable to bleep out the expletives on live television, according to reports.

    http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/music/madonna-blowing-white-house-article-1.2952443

    elissa (194766)

  47. No. Suckering punching a ‘Nazi’ is a very Polish move.

    “Let’s remember, Pearl Harbor…” – popular song, 1942.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  48. On the contrary, I believe the BLM types that I’ve seen speaking on TV are racist, dishonest and/or ignorant. This IMO makes them comparable to nazis (and KKK members).

    Harkin (dd820b)

  49. Not much for me to add here.

    1) Endorsing enthusiastically SWC’s Punching a Nazi activates the Nazi’s right to defend himself. Yes it does.

    2) Bob Stewart’s social contract is the only contract, binding on me, that other people were able to sign instead of me and somehow they are able to bind me to it. I’ve never understood “social contract” reasoning. Not Bob’s fault, of course, he didn’t make it up. I do agree with his real point, which is the problem of selective law enforcement, which degrades the rule of law that allows people to live their lives without face-punching.

    We’re getting dangerously close to the old system that different people are bound by different laws. When a Saxon face-punches a Briton, Saxon law applies, and he pays the weregild or whatever it was and if a Briton face-punches a Briton they do some other brehon law thing I can’t remember.

    3) Richard Spencer, if he is even a Nazi (I don’t think Patterico’s summary of his views is enough to make anyone a Nazi, even if those are Spencer’s real views), is out-numbered by leftists committing violence since the election by something like 100,000 to 1. And the media emphasizes any silly thing he does and uses it to tar 60 million people.

    Gabriel Hanna (f9a792)

  50. hey you leftered out this part

    She then changed her message to a message of love.

    “Choose love,” she told the crowd.

    if Madonna says for to choose love then I’m a choose love.

    I’m a choose it right now

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  51. this is me choosing love

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  52. I actually agree that there ought to be a state in North America where these folks can all go live.

    Perhaps Idaho.

    They’d have to renounce their American citizenship and figure out how they are going to get the imports they need and such, but in principle I see no reason why they can’t go live in a ghetto state if that’s what they want. Probably too much to expect them to put a swastika tattoo on their foreheads like Manson, so that we can all know them for what they are if they try to leave, but collecting them up in one remote place sounds like a good idea.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  53. Similarly some part of Mississippi for the black equivalent.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  54. @46. Interesting take on it, Elissa… on the other hand, watching the video, you can’t help but notice how handily Miss Chicken Legs of the 80s man-ipulates that microphone. She’s a ‘pro.’

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  55. “Should we use nasty, underhanded, violent, or otherwise UNsavory attacks against the left when the left has used them against us first?” has been a recurring issue at this blog.

    No. We should expose them for what they are instead. Civil rights were not won by fighting, but by exposing Jim Crow for what it was. This is harder for us, as we cannot rely on the media for getting the message out (quite the3 contrary), but with enough cameras it can be done.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  56. Sucker punching a ‘Nazi’ is a very Polish move.

    You mean like when the Poles attacked those German border posts in 1939, forcing Hitler to join with Stalin to obliterate Poland?

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  57. The answer to bad speech is better speech.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  58. Sucker punching Nazi death camp guards is OK though.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  59. “Perhaps Idaho”

    As the owner of a small farm in Idaho I have to say no thanks. It’s already changing for the worse but the main problem isn’t nazis or survivalists, it’s liberals from CA and WA.

    Harkin (dd820b)

  60. Seas of women wearing hats that (badly) model vulvas does not strike me as very classy. Maybe that’s just my personal bias though.

    elissa (194766)

  61. 59, Man in the High Castle might be not be in an alternate universe, merely deferred for a near century and with the Germans swapped out for Russians and Japanese swapped out for a Sino-Meso consortium.

    urbanleftbehind (8dd5fd)

  62. I want to speak up in defense of hitting, for reasons partly outlined by Patterico in the Buzz Aldrin (who happens to be a very good friend of mine, i.e., I met him at an event once) case. But I don’t have the time right now to outline my argument and do it proper justice. By the time I get to it, this thread will likely be stale, so it will probably have to wait for another time. But I’m willing to go on record as endorsing limited and controlled violence in some particular cases.

    JVW (6e49ce)

  63. And then there’s rocket surgeon Ashley judo.

    narciso (d1f714)

  64. Buzz Aldrin needs to choose love

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  65. You mean like when the Poles attacked those German border posts in 1939, forcing Hitler to join with Stalin to obliterate Poland?

    You prove my point; they were supposed to just screw in a light bulb.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  66. @60. It’s disheartening to see there’s so many unattractive women in America. Had they dolled up in Ralph Lauren and not Chez Goodwill, no doubt more heads would have turned to look and listen.

    “Mercy…” – Roy Orbison ‘Pretty Woman’ 1965

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  67. The sucker punch of Glenn outside the Smithsonian is identical to this as noted above.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  68. And many of those German troops trained in soviet russia

    narciso (d1f714)

  69. Mr White wrote:

    By the way, right now there are tons of people right now who would welcome an emerging social norm that it’s acceptable to punch, say, Black Lives Matter protesters. I know Nazis aren’t remotely comparable. You do too.

    Actually, I don’t know that Black Lives Matter protesters are not remotely comparable to Nazis. The Nazis had their Kristallnacht, while the BLMs broke plenty of glass themselves, primarily that of white or Asian storekeepers. The Nazis thought it was perfectly acceptable to beat, rob and sometimes kill Jews; the BLMs feel the same way about policemen. The BLM protesters are about where the Nazis were in 1931.

    The Dana who can see that both are scum (1b79fa)

  70. @adjectival Dana:The Nazis thought it was perfectly acceptable to beat, rob and sometimes kill Jews

    Freddie’s Fashion Mart. Nation of Islam. Etc.

    Gabriel Hanna (61adec)

  71. Mr M wrote:

    I actually agree that there ought to be a state in North America where these folks can all go live.

    Perhaps Idaho.

    They’d have to renounce their American citizenship and figure out how they are going to get the imports they need and such, but in principle I see no reason why they can’t go live in a ghetto state if that’s what they want. Probably too much to expect them to put a swastika tattoo on their foreheads like Manson, so that we can all know them for what they are if they try to leave, but collecting them up in one remote place sounds like a good idea.

    Kind of difficult to put them all in Idaho and then have them lose their American citizenship. Zacatecas is a state in North America; be a much better place for them.

    The geographic Dana (1b79fa)

  72. Aphreal: the hyperlink under your name is broken.

    The blogger Dana (1b79fa)

  73. Maybe he was really sucker punched for having a bad haircut.

    Look at the mileage Patterico has gotten out of posting this clip. ‘Nazis’ remain an endless source of entertainment these days.

    “Don’t be stupid; be a smarty; come and join the Nazi Party!” – Mel Brooks voiceover, ‘The Producers’ 1968

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  74. However desirable it may be to sucker punch a Nazi, doing to when he is peacefully giving an interview on camera is mindbogglingly stupid, as it allows him to paint YOU as an extremist.

    C. S. P. Schofield (99bd37)

  75. 73…yes. I still don’t understand why there would even be a debate about this. Punching people because you disagree with their speech or writings must not/cannot be tolerated in a civil society.

    One is defending oneself, sure, it’s is one’s right to do so. If you feel otherwise, check your knuckles for abrasions… They’re dragging on the ground.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  76. Buzz Aldrin needs to choose love

    happyfeet (28a91b) — 1/21/2017 @ 3:22 pm

    Buzz Aldrin earned his free pass when he went to the moon. He used it on someone who severely needed it. You are actually going to tell me you wouldn’t have done the same in a similar circumstance? Perhaps you’re obsequious to the point of servile, Happy, but I’m not.

    Bill H (971e5f)

  77. so you’re saying Buzz Aldrin doesn’t need to choose love because moon?

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  78. Its amusing when allies of the religious police like Linda sarsour, pretend to be prowoman. A fir Richard Spencer I try to think of him as little as possible.

    narciso (d1f714)

  79. As to the act depicted on the videotape, go heavy and stand by your work or go home. This is just punky.

    urbanleftbehind (8dd5fd)

  80. As previously noted, ‘Nazis’ make for an endless source of entertainment these days.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlmGknvr_Pg

    If these 8 minutes don’t make you laugh, you’re dead. BTW, try the brautwurst at the Axis Café.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  81. I agree with Patrick and Ken and I think that any of my fellow liberals who are OK with a violent response to anyone’s speech are very shortsighted. I would add that sucker-punching is cowardly, no matter what the political motivation is.

    Tim McGarry (be9b88)

  82. I’d laugh about the Nazi sucker punch, but if seated on a jury (which would never happen), from what I saw on the video, I’d have no choice but to convict

    steveg (5508fb)

  83. Does Van Jones, an avowed communist, deserve to get a punch to the face? His ideology has killed about 100 million people and impoverished hundreds of millions more.

    What about their sympathizers in government? Their followers?

    NJRob (43d957)

  84. Are you guys talking about this, about Buzz Aldrin?

    On September 9, 2002, Aldrin was lured to a Beverly Hills hotel on the pretext of being interviewed for a Japanese children’s television show on the subject of space. When he arrived, Apollo conspiracy proponent Bart Sibrel accosted him with a film crew and demanded he swear on a Bible that the Moon landings were not faked, insisting that Aldrin and others had lied about walking on the Moon. After a brief confrontation, in which Sibrel called him “a coward and a liar”, Aldrin punched Sibrel in the jaw, which was caught on camera by Sibrel’s film crew. The police determined that Aldrin was provoked and no charges were filed.

    You think it’s anywhere the same thing as the thug in this incident.

    nk (dbc370)

  85. @85. Not quite– the on camera sucker punch of John Glenn in late 1989 at the Smithsonian is a much better analogy. Likely overlooked by Patterico.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  86. Meanwhile, a man who urged mob violence against peaceful political opponents is now president of the United States.

    “Knock the crap out of ’em, would you? Seriously. Okay? Just knock the hell – I promise you, I will pay for the legal fees. I promise. I promise.” – Donald Trump at a political rally, February 1, 2016

    “I’ve actually asked my people to look into it, yes.” – Donald Trump on whether he would pay the legal fees of a supporter charged with assault for punching a non-violent protestor in the face, Meet the Press, March 13, 2016

    Impeach Trump.

    Dave (711345)

  87. Did they catch the guy who hit him?

    Davod (f3a711)

  88. “Knock the crap out of ’em, would you? Seriously. Okay? Just knock the hell – I promise you, I will pay for the legal fees. I promise. I promise.” – Donald Trump at a political rally, February 1, 2016

    Wasn’t Trump responding to the paid enforcers attacking peaceful Trump supporters?

    Davod (f3a711)

  89. NJRob asked:

    Does Van Jones, an avowed communist, deserve to get a punch to the face?

    Does he deserve a punch to the face? Yup, he sure does! Do you have the right to give him what he deserves, absent him assaulting you first? Nope, you sure don’t.

    The nuanced Dana (1b79fa)

  90. Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 1/21/2017 @ 12:25 pm

    “Hail Trump! Hail our people! Hail victory!” Spencer declared.

    — CNN 8 hours ago

    ——————————–

    You have to wonder who paid Spencer to do that. Of course that might mean he might (in principle) deserve punching even more than if he was sincere. But I think punching him was a manifestation of liberal fascism.

    Sammy Finkelman (8a31dc)

  91. C. S. P. Schofield (99bd37) — 1/21/2017 @ 4:53 pm

    as it allows him to paint YOU as an extremist.

    He won’t, because that would mean arguing that extremism is wrong.

    Sammy Finkelman (8a31dc)

  92. Either we believe in the rule of law or we don’t. It’s easy to apply this to the people we like or agree with, but much harder to those we don’t. And that is why the rule of law is so important. If ever the slippery slope argument applied, it applies to this.

    Rochf (877dba)

  93. Does he deserve a punch to the face? Yup, he sure does! Do you have the right to give him what he deserves, absent him assaulting you first? Nope, you sure don’t.

    The nuanced Dana (1b79fa) — 1/22/2017 @ 8:32 am

    Touche.

    NJRob (43d957)

  94. Ultra Close Up Views of the Apollo 11 Landing Site

    Images collected by the lunar reconnaissance orbiter, a NASA robotic spacecraft currently orbiting the Moon in an eccentric polar mapping orbit.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_Reconnaissance_Orbiter

    The landing gear/launch pad, footpaths of the astronauts, seismic recorder, laser target, flag pole, TV camera, and various sundries, are clearly visible.

    That guy who Buzz Aldrin punched, I want to punch him too.

    Would that be wrong?

    papertiger (c8116c)

  95. paper- it’s not wrong to want to punch people who deserve to be punched, like that guy. It’s just wrong to punch them.

    matt d (d4aa6f)

  96. Davod, it was not known/certified at the time of that rally incident that they were paid enforcers. They were not even wearing organizational shirts (e.g. SEIU purple, pink etc.), but were in plain street clothes. if such suspicion existed, the response should have gone no further then detention surrounding them to extent possible without striking blows and delivery via citizen arrest to on-scene law enforcement. Our paid enforcer radar was distinctly less operational in Winter 2016 as opposed to now. The black-clad auntie-basement-dwelling types that stormed the limo on Friday morning are much more obvious now and thus should get met with equal force.

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)


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