Patterico's Pontifications

5/30/2014

SWAT Team’s Stun Grenade Burns Child, Leaves Him in Coma

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 7:32 am

Awful:

A family is in shock after a SWAT team threw a stun grenade into their 19-month-old son’s crib during a midnight drugs raid, leaving the baby in a medically induced coma with severe burns.

Wisconsin mother Alecia Phonesavanh, her husband, Bounkham, and their children including toddler, Bou Jr., were visiting her sister-in-law in Atlanta, Georgia, when police raided the home early Wednesday.

Phonesavanh said officers threw a stun grenade, which landed in the sleeping child’s crib.

. . . .

Deputies said they bought drugs from the house and came back with a no-knock warrant to arrest a man known to have drugs and weapons, WSB reported. They arrested Wanis Thometheva, 30, during the raid.

Darby told WSBTV that the entire police unit is upset over the incident, which was an accident.

There is a horrible picture at the link which I do not care to reproduce here.

Don’t treat this like the cops intended this. They didn’t. When the story says deputies are distraught over this, I believe it. Cops don’t go into law enforcement to hurt small children.

But look: if you use stun grenades in the service of a no-knock warrant like this, tragedies like this are going to happen. The question that police (and members of the public who pay the police) have to ask themselves is this: is it worth this kind of risk to arrest people for the crime in question? If the crime is murder, you might have one answer. If the crime is selling drugs, you might have another.

And if the answer to that question (should we use this tactic knowing the risk?) is “no” . . . then don’t do it.

P.S. I might add: don’t sell drugs out of a house with children. It’s a rough and violent business and people get hurt, even when police don’t enter the picture.

118 Responses to “SWAT Team’s Stun Grenade Burns Child, Leaves Him in Coma”

  1. Ding.

    Patterico (9c670f)

  2. When the shooting starts the life expectancy of cops in swat gear is going to be counted in days.

    gary gulrud (46ca75)

  3. Which is more insidious, the sale of controlled substances, or storm troopers conducting combat missions within our borders?

    Colonel Haiku (833791)

  4. OT. Now that the search for MH370 is a total fiasco:

    it appears that the search is still going to focus on the southern, Indian Ocean route presumed since satellite data provided two possible arcs for Flight 370. The other would have taken the plane over land, and a rogue flight in that direction should have been picked up by military and/or civilian aviation radar.

    Because, WTF, we need time with our toys.

    gary gulrud (46ca75)

  5. What was the justification for the no-knock? That there was so little contraband in the house it could be destroyed when the police knock?

    The police didn’t intentionally throw a flashbang at a toddler, sure. But they intentionally threw a flashbang. I doubt very much an Indian or Pakistani family was going to return fire. Did they have evidence that contradicts my presumption and/or supported the use of flashbangs?

    JWB (c1c08f)

  6. I can’t wait for the first car-jacking of one of them armored troop carriers and all the flattened collateral damage.

    ‘effin NRA.

    gary gulrud (46ca75)

  7. chances are very very good that the uniformed dimbulb hyper-violent freakshow who did this will go wholly unpunished and start to draw his sweet sweet piggy pension at the age of 50 or so

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  8. Unless we’re talking about a large drug purchase, these no-knock warrants are really ridiculous. The militarization of our police departments is getting out of hand. I like how they BELIEVED there were weapons. We’ll eventually get to the truth—after the lawsuit is settled.

    I know the police have a tough job, but does every drug bust have to resemble an A-Team episode.

    Hadoop (f7d5ba)

  9. Atlanta. Nothing changes.

    nk (dbc370)

  10. Do these people never leave their home? Is there no way to effect, first the arrest of the suspect outside the home, and then the serving of the search warrant? How about send someone down in the sewer to capture the output of the home so that when the door is knocked on and the “evidence” is flushed, it is captured. Or turn off the water supply first so that only one flush is available. If the quantities of contraband are so small that one flush will dispose of it, is a SWAT raid warranted?

    Loren (1e34f2)

  11. In most things, what prevents accidents and abuse is the threat of being held responsible. When you allow nighttime no-knock raids with military tactics, in otherwise non-violent situations, AND have the judges and the officers personally immune to lawsuit, this is what happens.

    Kevin M (b357ee)

  12. Where’s Johnny Sutton when you need him?

    nk (dbc370)

  13. “Don’t treat this like the cops intended this. They didn’t. When the story says deputies are distraught over this, I believe it. Cops don’t go into law enforcement to hurt small children.”

    I beg to differ.

    The deputies intended to effect a no-knock raid.
    The deputies intended to perform this raid during late-night/early-morning hours.
    The deputies intended to do this raid using SWAT-style “dynamic entry”.
    The deputies intended to toss stun grenades at the onset of the raid.

    None of those actions were done in the spur of the moment. Each was decided upon well in advance of the actual event.

    One thing the deputies did NOT intend to do was conduct sufficient pre-raid surveillance to determine who was inside the residence prior to the raid. They did NOT intend to determine if any innocent parties might be put in harms way due to their actions.

    While that may not add up to the intent to severely burn a toddler, it does make a compelling argument that the deputies were completely indifferent to that possibility. Forgive me if I think the real cause of the deputies’ supposed anguish is the realization that they will now have to do a lot of extra paperwork and that this may affect their budget for more SWAT equipment in the future.

    TMW (f48f8c)

  14. Are there any limits on the tactics that can be used by police in no-knock warrants? Currently they have flashbangs, TESAR door-breachers, and machine guns. Why not just smash through the side of the house with a tank? Does the warrant set out the tactical limits, or does “no-knock” permit the police to use anything in their arsenal?

    Kevin M (b357ee)

  15. As a certified user of explosive distraction devices (‘stun grenades’) for more than 20 years, Rule #1 is that you do not deploy a device into a space that you have not personally visually checked for safety! (e.g., you do not just gain access and toss it in, you look for an open space on the floor and deploy it as close to that spot as you can)

    I’ve used explosive distraction devices over 100 times in all sorts of high-risk encounters. I’ve NEVER dropped one into a space that I didn’t personally look into first – including using a flashlight to get a quick glimpse – so I know it can be done without exceptionally endangering anyone, ESPECIALLY a suited-up Tac-officer with the element of surprise on their side. The only person I’ve every hurt was myself when I picked-up a deployed device too soon and it was still blistering hot. It didn’t take long for me to realize that was a mistake, but it did take care of that nasty fingerprint problem on my right-hand for a while.

    To do anything different is deliberate indifference, arguably approaching criminal misconduct, and there is simply no excuse for dropping a potentially deadly explosive device into a child’s crib!

    MJN1957 (d1de05)

  16. Excerpts from Hillary’s new book are reported by Politico:

    Those who exploit this tragedy (Benghazi) over and over as a political tool minimize the sacrifice of those who serve our country…I will not be part of a political slugfest on the backs of dead Americans. It’s just plain wrong, and it’s unworthy of our great country. Those who insist on politicizing the tragedy will have to do so without me.

    Nominations for Two-faced Horse’s Ass are open.

    ropelight (ebf04d)

  17. Shinsecki has resigned.
    And apparently, that is not a euphemism for “fired.”

    Obama says he “regrettably” accepted the resignation.
    Doesn’t Barack get that he should want to give the public appearance that he actually FIRED the idiot ?

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  18. Kevin @ 14. Searches and seizures cannot be “unreasonable”. I agree with TMW and MJN1957. A search that ends up with a flash-bang in a baby’s crib does not meet any standard of reasonableness. Not even Thomas’s.

    nk (dbc370)

  19. our country’s not all that great, sweetie pickles, and it’s increasingly unworthy of a lot of things

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  20. They could have set up another buy and busted this guy after the transaction, sans the MOUT assault. This was macho “my penis is huge, check it out” stupidity, not sound police work.

    They conducted a violent, dangerous no-knock raid tossing explosives into blind rooms and did not know a baby was in the house or where it slept so they could avoid injuring or killing it. Sorry, there’s no excuse for that. None. People need to be fired, but no one will be.

    SGT Ted (eed28b)

  21. On the bright side, happyfeet, the strawberries are starting to ripen.

    mg (31009b)

  22. The Deputies anguish is a natural reaction of people that know they fucked this one up real good and there is no real excuse for it.

    The next natural reaction should be to resign, or be fired.

    SGT Ted (eed28b)

  23. this is super easy Mr. mg I substitute stevia for the sugar and we put it on top of the 80-cal a serving breyer’s vanilla ice cream

    http://allrecipes.com/recipe/supreme-strawberry-topping/

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  24. It sounds crazy, but black pepper goes really well with strawberries. You can use it in a balsamic/strawberry/basil salad thingie, or even make a booze drink with it. Absolut peppar and fresh-strained strawberries, blended with a pepper rim.

    carlitos (e7c734)

  25. TMW @ 13, concur completely!

    More than likely, this incident was the result of everything you wrote, but also lackadaisical training and unserious leadership.

    I’ve been in the room many times during training exercises when distraction devices were deployed. If I didn’t see the eyes of the deploying officer when they did a quick-look into the room before the device came in, I failed them on the spot and they never touched a distraction device again until they passed next quals.

    I used training to develop new skills on my team, but I also used to condition proper execution of technical skills under stress. If one of my officers wasn’t doing it right in a low-stress training scenario, they sure as hell weren’t going to do it right in a high-stress, high-risk incident when it mattered. It wasn’t just the clear and obvious fact that innocents might get hurt, but the damned things just work better when they function in an open space on the floor! Dropping them onto/into a soft fluffy bed – occupied by a baby or not – reduces their effectiveness exponentially, PLUS it risks starting a raging fire that can consume everyone in the place…including the Tac Team!

    If one of my guys did this, they would probably be trying ME for assault on an officer – or worse.

    MJN1957 (d1de05)

  26. i’m bookmarking that

    (the part about the booze)

    the weekend’s coming up real fast here on the west coast, but I suspect you’ll get there before me Mr. c

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  27. MJN, it’s actually worse than that. From Access North Georgia

    According to the confidential informant, there were no children,” Terrell said. “When they made the buy, they didn’t see any children or any evidence of children there, so we proceeded with our standard operation.

    And

    I’ve talked to the D.A., I’ve talked to the GBI,” Terrell said. “I’ve given them the whole information and they say there’s nothing else we can do. There’s nothing to investigate, there’s nothing to look at.

    So there you have it, the modicum of procedure was followed so “hey, whuddya gonna do?” It’s not like occupancy can change over the course of hours or days.

    I’ve also got to agree with TMW. Maybe the more empathetic officers might have it nag a them. But I doubt we see any resignations from that SWAT team. And institutionally there is no remorse and that conversation you propose, Patrick, simply is not going to happen. Again,

    “The person I blame in this whole thing is the person selling the drugs,” Terrell said. “Wanis Thonetheva, that’s the person I blame in all this. They are no better than a domestic terrorist, because they don’t care about families – they didn’t care about the family, the children living in that household – to be selling dope out of it, to be selling methamphetamine out of it. All they care about is making money.

    The irony there is rich but the self-awareness and ability to shoulder complicity is quite poor.

    The truth is that while the more militarized wing of law enforcement might care about the safety of innocents, that concern is so far a distant second to their own perceived safety requirements. That’s why you get officers shooting at random trucks not matching the description of the truck they’re looking for, middle-aged women gun down in their cars, or shooting at 17 year-old couples making out in a school parking lot.

    Frankly this will continue until there is some real accountability for the actual officers involved be it criminal penalties or just losing their careers.

    wisco (39092e)

  28. When did Balko Start guest posting? And isn’t the title supposed to be; “Another Isolated Incident.”?

    Kidding aside. You’re assuming that there were drugs there and that their warrent was accurate. The story doesn’t say if they found any drugs.

    time123 (066362)

  29. law enforcement in america is a very corrupt and deviant enterprise

    it starts with the sick perverted twists at the FBI and the DEA and the ATF and gets more and more brutal and sick as you work your way down to the illiterate neck-tattooed openly-racist grassroots operations

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  30. They “found” drugs. I guarantee it. There’s no way they’d go in without a few nickel bags on them. If it had been New York they’d also have found a silenced pistol with the serial numbers ground off.

    nk (dbc370)

  31. Who was the victim? The people willingly buying drugs? Making decisions about their own bodies? Or the child hurt by a grenade tossed by a cop who has no regard for freedom or the rights of the individual?

    God damned statist country. No matter what happens to a cop, I can’t feel sorry for them. Tyrants who enforce unjust laws in an unjust country.

    CrustyB (69f730)

  32. This is what happens when you don’t have a dog for them to shoot.

    Why not just smash through the side of the house with a tank?

    Already doing that, if you’ll accept using a front-end loader.

    I want to know when the informant was in the house to know there were no kids there. A week before? Two weeks? These people have no kids to recognize that they move about and don’t stay where you put them?

    htom (412a17)

  33. Vlad Putin can’t be stopped, Boko Haram can’t be tracked down, and the southern border with Mexico can’t be stop-gapped, but if cattle belonging to a rancher in Nevada are grazing the wrong fields, or if Elian Gonzalez overstays his welcome, or if David Koresh reportedly has illegal guns, then damnit, we’re gonna send in the D-Day Invasion.

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  34. Reading about this, some additional details…

    1. The mother of the baby was staying with her sister after their house burned down. So instead of being homeless or asking for govt. help, they moved in with a relative to put a roof over the families head.
    2. An informant bought meth, (no report on how much) from this house prior, but they obviously did not have this house under observation.
    3. They guy they were looking for was found and arrested at another house without incident.

    So what we may have here is a snitch telling the cops he bought meth from some guy, who moved out when his wife’s family moved in (looks like a small house) and the police raided the house.

    In all of these cases, I see a huge mis use of resources. You have a dozen swat guys making overtime (I will pay 100$ if you can show me they were not on OT) who planned to spend at least 8 hours per officer on this raid, as opposed to two detectives camping out for a few hours to grab this guy when he went out for milk.

    I agree with the majority of the posters, this stinks…..

    Boca Condo King (ea984f)

  35. The problem is that they make general strategy for all raids, or all raids for a certain crime..

    Absent other considerations it will always be designed to protect the policemen.

    We get that also with people being handcuffed or searched.

    The reason for the stun grenade was the idea that maybe the drug dealer might take out a gun and fire. They really did suspect him of possibly intending to commit murder, but propbably base don nothing more than the type of illegal business he was in. There was probably no individual evaluation of the situation, still less if maybe he had a small child.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  36. 32. Elephant Stone (6a6f37) — 5/30/2014 @ 10:14 am

    if David Koresh reportedly has illegal guns, then damnit, we’re gonna send in the D-Day Invasion. </i

    The Waco search warrant was entirely fraudulant. They even made the mistake of having him refer to the LA riots BEFORE THEY HAPPENED

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  37. Reliance on informants, who may lie, is entirely the worst thing.

    You can’t rule out that theer is police corruption here – somebody wants to stop raids. the way you do that is by engineering a mistake.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  38. Well, we DO live in a police state. These things happen.

    DejectedHead (a094a6)

  39. If they “bought drugs from the house”, shouldn’t they have come with a house-mover so they could ‘take the house into custody’.
    Was there really a need to have a no-knock raid at Midnight, a ‘need’ that couldn’t have been met, say at 6am, after setting up a cordon to ensure that the ‘person of interest’ did not leave in the interim – or if he did leave, could be apprehended away from any possible ‘collateral damage’?

    ps. Tks for correcting the Comments Box problem that I mentioned yesterday.

    askeptic (8ecc78)

  40. Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 5/30/2014 @ 10:22 am

    Sammy, there were riots in L.A. in 1965

    askeptic (8ecc78)

  41. Habersham County Sheriff Joey Terrell has stated:

    “We keep asking ourselves, ‘how did this happen?’,” Terrell said. “No one can answer that – you can’t answer that. You try and do everything right. Bad things can happen. That’s just the world we live in. Bad things happen to good people.

    It seems MJM at #15 clear rule #1 answers Terrell’s question rather conclusively.

    ropelight (ebf04d)

  42. No, In the Waco search warrant affidavit, David Koresh was clearly supposed to be talking about the 1992 riots. Who was remembering it anyway, in 1992?

    I mentioned this in comment 80 in this thread:

    http://patterico.com/2014/04/25/apparently-concerns-about-federal-overreaching-are-now-racist/

    This reminds me of something in the Waco search warrant:

    https://www.firearmsandliberty.com/waco.affidavit.html

    ….. On December 7, 1992, I spoke with Special Agent Carlos Torres, BATF, Houston, Texas, who had been assisting me in a portion of this investigation. He related to me the results of his interview on December 4, 1992, with Joyce Sparks, Texas Department of Human Services, Waco, Texas….

    Ms. Sparks also said that on April 6, 1992, she visited the compound again. On this occasion she talked with David Koresh….

    …She said that during her conversation with Koresh, he told her that he was the “Messenger” from God, that the world was coming to an end, and that when he “reveals” himself the riots in Los Angeles would pale in comparison to what was going to happen in Waco, Texas…..

    If this story is true, David Koresh really was a prophet!

    The Los Angeles rioting took place

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Los_Angeles_riots

    from April 29 to May 4, 1992 after the date of this alleged conversation with David Koresh, which is stated in the affidavit to have taken place on April 6!! You think that’s supposed to be about the Watts riots of 1965?

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  43. The words “you think… etc.” were added now.

    If you check the dates in the waco warrant, you will see they track Bill Clintpon;s Presidential prospects, stopping in June when perot seemed to get into teh lead and not resuming until after the 1992 Presidnetial election in November.

    One of the leaders of the raid, and a key person who “improved” the warrant in beginning opf January 1993, by throwing in sex allegations, was Jay William Buford, head of the BATF in Little Rock. He was a Friend of Bill accoridng to the March 9, 1993 Wall Street Journal. Clinton sent Roger Altman to see him in front of a WSJ reporter who ws sthere to chronocile a day in the life of the president. And he wa sthe head of the BATF in Little Rock and one of the leaders of the raid, not just any old ATF agent.

    I think Clinton murdered most of the Branch Davidians to protect him. (Buford had also probably murdered three of his own men in order to make Koresh look bad. It was not because these three men, were assigned to Bill Clinton’s security as Clinton claimed in a speech on March 17, 1993, which is patent nonsense. That was just a red herring thrown out by Bill Clinton.)

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  44. Don’t treat this like the cops intended this. They didn’t. When the story says deputies are distraught over this, I believe it. Cops don’t go into law enforcement to hurt small children.

    Maybe not, but it’s inevitable when “no-knock” warrants are routine. They didn’t throw this grenade because of any resistance. They threw it because they wanted to overwhelm sleeping people before there could even be the possibility of resistance. Radley Balko chronicles “accidents” like this every week. So, they may not have “intended it” .. but they know their behavior makes these things inevitable and yet continue to engage in it.

    libarbarian (f6727c)

  45. Breaking News! Obama announces Tommy Flanagan will be his new press secretary.

    Colonel Haiku (3e6bf1)

  46. 17. Elephant Stone (6a6f37) — 5/30/2014 @ 8:38 am

    Doesn’t Barack get that he should want to give the public appearance that he actually FIRED the idiot ?

    That would give the impression that the original appointment was a mistake and Shinseki did a bad job, and that would reflect poorly on Obama.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  47. 26- Here’s the response for the drug seller.

    askeptic (8ecc78)

  48. When you’re a father with a now hurt baby and a wife who need you, you can’t just take your SKS and go pig hunting no matter how much you may want to.

    nk (dbc370)

  49. Why not just smash through the side of the house with a tank?

    that’s what the israelis do, in a war zone. the front door is often boobytrapped.

    Hamas taught them to do that.

    But they warn the entire populatrion of the neighborhood they are going into to get out.

    They used to sometimes let some resident of the area who claimed there were no terrorists or nmo booby trap there to go first through the froint door.

    But busybodies decided that was a war crime, [this was somebody in position to know the facts, who wasn't being forced to, trying to save his house!] so they don’t do it any more.

    Now it’s always: When attacking in a city (against terrorist groups) NEVER use the front door. Avoid streets too.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  50. Sammy #45,

    If Obama were to give the appearance that he fired Shinsecki, a good percentage of the moronic American public would probably think, “Hey, Obama’s doing something ! He fired the incompetent guy in charge of the VA ! Good for him ! Obama deserves four more years !!”

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  51. Sammy, since Koresh was a pretty smart guy and knew a little history, and if the quote is correct that on 6 April 92 he referred to the “LA Riots”, I’m pretty sure he was talking about the past as the Watts Riots were a marker in the violence of the Sixties. His only attempts to foretell the future had to do with Scripture, and the mythical Seventh-Seal.

    askeptic (8ecc78)

  52. Elephant Stone (6a6f37) — 5/30/2014 @ 11:16 am

    If Obama were to give the appearance that he fired Shinsecki, a good percentage of the moronic American public would probably think, “Hey, Obama’s doing something ! He fired the incompetent guy in charge of the VA ! Good for him ! Obama deserves four more years !!”

    Obama knows tht only some people might think the guy in charge of the VA was incompetent. he also knows there are many people who think Shinseki is not the problem. Shinseki leaving on his own is good for those people who think he is the problem. Obama firing him doesn’t add anything to that, but prevents backlash from people who think that is unfair, or besides the point.

    And prevents anyone who doesn’t already think Shinseki was a bad appointment from blaming Obama for appointing him.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  53. 50. askeptic (8ecc78) — 5/30/2014 @ 11:18 am

    Sammy, since Koresh was a pretty smart guy and knew a little history, and if the quote is correct that on 6 April 92 he referred to the “LA Riots”, I’m pretty sure he was talking about the past as the Watts Riots were a marker in the violence of the Sixties. His only attempts to foretell the future had to do with Scripture, and the mythical Seventh-Seal

    The quote is not correct. It was made up in December 1992 by someone who’d forgotten and didn’t bother to check, just when the LA riots occured. That was already seven months in the past.

    The April 6 date was chosen because that was probably the actual date of a visit by Joyce Sparks, and the last day she had visited there, so if you wanted her to put these words in David Koresh’s mouth, it had to be on April 6.

    Somebody just forgot it was a almost a month before the riots. They didn’t check.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  54. If somebody had referred to the “LA riots” on April 1992, nobody would have understood what they talking about.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  55. Since the ‘Watts Riot’ was not confined to Watts over its 6-day tenure, and that most people outside of a few newsies had no idea where ‘Watts’ was (or is), I am not as positive as you are about that.
    When we speak of the Riots in Detroit of ’67, do we talk about it as the ’12th Street Riot’?
    Highly doubtful. In fact, until 5 minutes ago, I had never read or heard that appellation.
    I’m sure there are other ‘disturbances’ from the Sixties that can be referred to by other names, but get short-handed to just the city-at-large in which they occurred.

    askeptic (8ecc78)

  56. http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/31/us/white-house-press-secretary-resigns.html?hp&_r=0

    Jay Carney is being replaced by his deputy press secretary, Josh Earnest.

    Mr. Obama, who announced Mr. Carney’s departure, said Mr. Carney would be replaced by the deputy press secretary, Josh Earnest.

    Mr. Obama called Mr. Earnest a person of “sound judgment and great temperament.”

    Mr. Carney, who fielded questions from the press moments after Mr. Obama left the podium, said the timing of his departure was uncertain.

    “I haven’t made any decisions yet,” Mr. Carney said. “I’m excited by some of the possibilities. I’m sure you guys will be among the first to know after I’ve decided what to do.”

    Did Obama acknowledge firing him, or not?

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  57. 54. The riots in Los Angeles in 1965 are referred to as the Watts riots in just about anythinbg I’ve read. They never were referred to as LA riots. Detroit and Newark are different stories.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  58. R.I.P. Jay Carney’s career

    Icy (3bb427)

  59. 56- Well, that’s it then, the HISTORIAN has spoken.

    askeptic (8ecc78)

  60. Stashiu asked Sammy the right question, one time.

    nk (dbc370)

  61. Jay Carney is being replaced by another liberal white male.

    DIVERSITY !
    EQUAL PAY AND EQUAL OPPORTUNITIES FOR WOMEN !!!!!!!!!!1!!
    Or something.

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  62. Nk @ 59.

    Stashiu asked Sammy the right question, one time.

    Where?

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  63. 56. 58. The idea that that Koresh quote in the Waco search warrant affidavit is referring to any other LA riots than the ones that occurred in 1992 is far-fetched.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  64. Well, I was just trying to live in your world, Sammy.

    askeptic (8ecc78)

  65. Icy… Here’s Carney’s replacement… http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pkYNBwCEeH4

    Colonel Haiku (560fd2)

  66. 63. I don’t look for the implausible explanation.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  67. This is Jay Carney’s actual replacement:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-eSpyhXse8

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  68. A few observations.

    First of all, these officers are not trained in the use of their toys or in anything remotely related to sane procedures.

    Here’s the police video of a pick-up team (?!?!) various local departments and and the Pima County Sheriff’s Office who apparently had never even trained together executing Jose Guerena in his Arizona home, solely on the word of a confidential informant.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jC-5gFnCBs0

    I only trained in Shipboard Security Engagement Tactics, so I’m not the authority that MJN or really any infantryman who patrolled the sandbox would be. But I do know how to clear a space, and the above isn’t it. I don’t even know where to begin to describe the multiple acts of stupidity in the video.

    Well, probably at the beginning. These lethal doofuses begin forming their undisciplined gaggle about 14 seconds into the video. At about 22 seconds you can hear someone say, “bang, bang, bang” which I suppose tells you something about the mindset of these yayhoos. But the important thing is that is the only audible sound these cops make. I defy anyone to tell me you can hear the cops announce themselves. Note Officer Friendly closest to the camera at about the 34 second mark. As you can tell by his arm movements he raises his weapon. In fact you can see his handgun appear to the left of his neck, pointing generally in the direction of his fellow officers to the left of the door. But no matter because as you can tell from the fact he never changes the position of his arm he keeps his weapon raised and pointing toward the front no matter how many cops wander aimlessly in front of his muzzle.

    And I do mean aimlessly, because I have no idea what they think they’re doing but a) neither do they and b) whatever it is they’ve never practiced it before. As the video continues apparently one guy checks the doorknob to find it locked. So some guy with the battering ram busts the door open. He takes his sweet time strolling back out of the way while the gaggle stands around, then while battering ram dude is mostly out of the way the gaggle wanders up to the door. They fill the doorway for a second or so before launching their fusillade.

    Toward the end of the video the point man with the shield drops to the ground. Probably do to all the cops who rush up to shoot past his head.

    This is what happens when you militarize the police force. Police forces then look for excuses to use these units whether they’re trained or not (and they’re mostly not), in order to justify their existence. And when the feds offer free military surplus toys to police forces, they can justify getting more stuff. Because, hey! Look at all the times they’ve “needed” them in the past.

    An Indiana Sheriff illustrates the paranoid mindset as he tries to explain why he needs an MRAP.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2633150/American-police-forces-benefit-millions-dollars-military-weapons-proof-vehicles-armed-forces-leave-Iraq-Afghanistan.html

    As American military forces return from Iraq and Afghanistan, one Indiana police station is benefiting from a mine-resistant vehicles once used to tour the war zone to combat a new breed of criminal with military training.

    ‘When I first started we really didn’t have the violence that we see today,’ Sgt. Dan Downing of the Morgan County Sheriff’s Department told Fox 59. ‘The weaponry is totally different now that it was in the beginning of my career, plus, you have a lot of people who are coming out of the military that have the ability and knowledge to build IEDs and to defeat law enforcement techniques.’

    OMG! Everybody panic! He needs an MRAP because… veterans.

    Everything he said is BS. If that was the case, why didn’t the cops need to armor up after WWII, Korea, Vietnam, or Desert Storm? Particularly after Vietnam because the weaponry hasn’t been “totally different” since the 1960s.

    And it’s the insurgents who are training to build IEDs.

    So what incidents does this Indiana lawman cite to justify his department’s acquisition of this hardware?

    Downing specifically recalled one incident with a barricaded gunman that could have benefited from such equipment in 2011.

    There was also in incident in 1997 in which two men wearing body armor and armed with automatic weapons tried to shoot their way out of the North Hollywood bank they’d just robbed.

    Police have been dealing with barricaded suspects since forever without military hardware. And the North Hollywood bank robbery wasn’t in his jurisdiction, wasn’t even in his state, wasn’t even within a thousand miles, and was nearly 20 years ago.

    What this tells you is, he has no actual need for this stuff. But what this also tells you is if he has a chance to use it he will in order to justify having it.

    This is a paranoid mindset. He has imagined some dramatic increase in violence, but can’t actually recount the incidents that would prove these threats are real instead of imaginary.

    And that mindset seems to be typical.

    http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2014/01/14/torrance-police-officer-will-not-face-criminal-charges-for-civilian-shooting-during-dorner-manhunt/

    “McGee’s actions are analyzed based on the totality of circumstances, which include McGee’s knowledge of Dorner’s previous threats and actions in the days and hours preceding these events, which gave rise to an atmosphere of fear and extreme anticipation,” according to Deputy District Attorney Geoffrey Rendon. “Those circumstances created a situation in which a reasonable mistake of fact, namely that Dorner was driving the truck, nearly resulted in a horrific tragedy.

    “Nonetheless, given the circumstances, as detailed above, we conclude that Officer McGee was justified in using force to stop the vehicle and in discharging his firearm. Therefore, prosecution in this matter is declined and this office will take no further action.”

    What this deputy DA cited as the factors that prompted this deputy to go on his own rampage is the very definition of unreasonable fear. Because they were paranoid, in at least two incidents they went on their own personal shooting sprees because they were afraid of Chris Dorner. In the above incident the deputy rammed and shot at (didn’t hit; sometimes its a good thing cops can’t shoot) a relatively small white dude in a black Honda Ridgeline.

    In the other deputies guarding the residence of one of the animals who is more equal than the rest of us animals shot up two hispanic ladies, one the middle aged daughter of her elderly mother, driving a green Toyota Tacoma as they delivered newspapers in his neighborhood.

    They were cleared as well because apparently unfocused “fear” is a justification to shoot at anything that moves if you’re a cop. And only a cop.

    Chris Dorner, it must be remembered, was a large young black man driving a Nissan Titan. These cops couldn’t even be bothered to identify the make of the vehicle, race, or gender, before opening up.

    And that’s cool with DAs across the country. No offense, Pat, I’m just pointing out the facts. The cops who murdered Jose Guerena were cleared. I have no idea what if anything will happen to the Georgia cop who was serving a probation violation warrant at a man’s home, and shot his son instead as he answered the door with a Wii controller in his hand when the cop knocked (and didn’t answer when the family asked “who is it?”). Another clear incident like the above when the cop failed to identify either the individual or the object before opening fire.

    Being in a state of panic, failing to identify what I’m shooting at, or in this case throwing grenades at, and feeling really, really bad about my gross negligence wouldn’t get me off the well deserved attempted murder charges in these cases. Because I’m not a cop. Ordinary citizens are held to a much higher standard than these militarized, paranoid cops.

    Steve57 (61329d)

  69. More from Josh Earnest:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrXbfdF2dI4

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  70. That last one only mentions Earnest tweeted and wrote an e-mail.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  71. The face behind the podium may change, but the lies will remain the same.

    askeptic (8ecc78)

  72. R.I.P. Jay Carney’s career

    Garbage! David Gregory better watch out. MSNBC will probably hire him and his wife to do a dual commie show. Didn’t snakehead and Mary Matalin have a brief show? Maybe it was a segment on a show!

    Hadoop (f7d5ba)

  73. There is a horrible picture at the link which I do not care to reproduce here.

    Why? Don’t you want the drug warriors to see their new mascot?

    CTD (662b4b)

  74. Don’t treat this like the cops intended this.

    At some point conduct becomes some criminally negligent that “intent” becomes a matter of semantics.

    CTD (662b4b)

  75. 40. Habersham County Sheriff Joey Terrell has stated:

    “We keep asking ourselves, ‘how did this happen?’,” Terrell said. “No one can answer that – you can’t answer that. You try and do everything right. Bad things can happen. That’s just the world we live in. Bad things happen to good people.

    It seems MJM at #15 clear rule #1 answers Terrell’s question rather conclusively.
    ropelight (ebf04d) — 5/30/2014 @ 10:48 am

    Also, “No one can answer that – you can’t answer that” if this is what passes for an after action review or “lessons learned” in copville.

    In the military you do extensive critiques of your performance (every carrier pilot’s landing is graded and the LSO debriefs every pilot he grades after a launch and recovery cycle on his performance) in order to improve. Especially if something goes wrong.

    But then in the military we were held accountable and as I noted in my previous comment, cops are not. So we can expect more of the kind of vapid response we get from Sheriff Terrell whenever the cops off somebody. Of course “nobody can answer that” if nobody is ever looking for answers. The fact that Terrell is unable to “answer that” doesn’t mean it’s unanswerable. It’s just that Terrell is too lazy or stupid to “answer that.”

    And who are these “good people?” Certainly not Terrell nor the criminally negligent cops in his department. The suspects and their families, and sometimes entirely innocent people, he plans on continuing to endanger?

    I don’t know how much of the shipboard tactics I was trained in would transfer to a police environment. For one thing, you can get to know every inch of your ship. So it isn’t like I’d ever dynamically enter a strange house. Although based on my training I’d want to know everything about that house, if I were to have to do it. Plus every ship comes with a nice, handy command post for this sort of thing; damage control central. Also ships have other options available. If no hostages are involved you can just flood the space. That will take care of terrorists right quick. But then we’d train for hostage situations. One training scenario was terrorists have taken over the bridge and are holding the captain prisoner.

    I’m sure some things transfer over, though. As MJM points out you don’t just blindly throw the stun grenade into the space; tossing it into the skippers lap as he’s handcuffed to the captain’s chair doesn’t exactly solve your problem. Nor does shooting him upon entry. You have to identify your targets. Which is the point of the flash bang; to give you a brief edge so you can identify your targets and shoot them before they can shoot you (although actual terrorists can train for that; there have been reports of terrorists with blood running out of their ears, waiting).

    More importantly, you train. Every man on the team knows his role intimately. They stack up in order of entry, and upon entry each one moves to his assigned objective. You don’t just talk about. You drill until you could practically do it in your sleep.

    I see no sign of any order in that police mob in the Guerena video. The guy with the shield is clearly supposed to be the first man in, but at some points he’s in the rear of the gaggle. The whole thing was clearly unrehearsed, amateurish, and undisciplined.

    This is an entirely different question from should the cops be doing these raids; my answer would be no. This is a question of are the cops even competent to be performing these raids. Based on the evidence in the above video and the fact that they’re throwing incendiaries into cribs with infants in them (along with a ton of other evidence which everyone should be grateful I’m not presenting in this missive), for the vast majority of them again my answer is no. They’re simply acquiring equipment they don’t know how to use, then inventing reasons to use it.

    Steve57 (61329d)

  76. I cannot accept that anyone qualified to use a ‘distraction device’ would throw a ‘distraction device’ into a room blind per the scenario the chief paints of a blocked door. Too freaking many problems with that idea, the grenade might be blocked by a heavy piece of furniture and now the police are charging into a room full of alarmed people who are presumably armed and dangerous, the room might be blocked by newspapers or other flammable materials and now the police are charging into a fire, the grenade might wind set fire to chemicals being used to cook meth and now the police are dealing with a cloud of toxic gas… . Even if we completely discount civilian safety, the police chief should fire a cop who threw a stun grenade blind (and do everything in the chief’s power to keep him out of police work) because he is a danger to everyone around him, police or civilian.

    max (4fdf98)

  77. If the burn victim had been the drug dealer, I doubt the cops would be feeling much mental pain and anguish. Some of these folk do such a horrid job of investigating … Murderapolis, back in the late 1980s, had a building under continuous surveillance for more than a week, and knew there were only two people there. The fire from the flash bang into the Christmas tree killed the two elderly owners, who hadn’t stepped outside (in the Minnesota winter) during the hours of 8:00am – Noon and 1:00pm – 5:00pm, the times when the continuous surveillance was conducted. They were home from church by 7:30am, and went to the grocery when their grandson took them after work. Just not there at all, to the cops.

    It’s the 99% that are giving the bad reputation to the 1% who don’t deserve it.

    htom (412a17)

  78. Steve57

    They were cleared as well because apparently unfocused “fear” is a justification to shoot at anything that moves if you’re a cop. And only a cop… And that’s cool with DAs across the country

    I gotta figure this is on account of DAs seeing themselves on the same “side” as LEOs. Shared goal to put away those responsible for crimes. If someone on your “team” does something monumentally stupid, you’re more likely to extend the benefit of the doubt into outright credulity than for someone on the outside. Of course, perhaps if you have to work with a group day in and out, maybe there are more mercenary considerations that go into the thought process. And there is the fact that in government at all levels intentions are given an outsized value compared to the private sector in evaluating outcomes.

    But for the officers on the street, I think more than fear or paranoia, the motivating factor is that they simply do not have to think past the first step. They just don’t have to consider the consequences of their actions because there is a bureaucracy behind them to sweep up the mess. So many departments and unions protect their people from deliberate malfeasance, that why should they bother with being criminally negligent about rules 2 and 4?

    wisco (39092e)

  79. I went to the link. Saw the pic. Whoever did that to the child needs to be charged with attempted murder. And I read this:

    Police said a multijurisdictional drug unit issued a warrant and organized the SWAT operation

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2643344/Horror-SWAT-team-throw-stun-grenade-toddlers-CRIB-drugs-raid-leaving-coma-severe-burns.html#ixzz33EfLsCl9
    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

    Was the “SWAT team” multijurisdictional as well? Because that was one of the problems (once you get passed the problem the raid should have never happened at all, and then the next problem of if the were going to do it they should have spent a couple of hours gathering intel and doing a little mission planning) with the Guerena raid. The crack operators on that little police special forces unit were from three small towns as well as the Pima County Sheriff’s Dept. The towns, if I recall correctly, were too small to support or even justify their own SWAT teams. And as far as I’ve been able to learn they never trained together. Which is clear in the video of that raid.

    Was that the case here as well? A quick search shows that Cornelia, GA has a population under 4k residents. In fact according to the Habersham County Sheriff’s Dept. website the county has a total population of barely approximately 49k residents. And amazingly, Cornelia is the largest town in the county. Was more than one of these tiny towns, too small for their own SWAT team, involved?

    Or did the Habersham County Special Response Team do this entirely on its own? It was created in 2013 according to the website, so they have several months of training under their belt.

    Oh, and as an added bonus, the Cato Institute’s interactive map of botched police paramilitary raids.

    http://www.cato.org/raidmap

    Steve57 (61329d)

  80. 76. max (4fdf98) — 5/30/2014 @ 2:12 pm

    the police chief should fire a cop who threw a stun grenade blind (and do everything in the chief’s power to keep him out of police work) because he is a danger to everyone around him, police or civilian

    The person he really should fire (or sue) is the person who taught himm to do that, or who taught the whole police department to do that.

    And the person who picked the teacher.

    And the person who recommended that training.

    Sammy Finkelman (b66da2)

  81. I occasionally go read the Volokh Conspiracy, now on the Washington Post site; today I went there and found an article on another WaPo blog:
    The Watch says that in 2009 this same police department killed Jonathan Ayers, a young pastor.
    The same DA (Rickman) investigated both the Ayers case and this one, in both cases quickly announcing that none of the police were at fault.

    In the Ayers case, Ayers’ widow hired an investigator who found that the officer who shot Ayers had no training in lethal force, and had not taken the firearms courses required for certification as a police officer.

    (Refer to the link if you want the full story.)

    Overall, it sounds very fishy.

    Ibidem (3ede5e)

  82. 78. I gotta figure this is on account of DAs seeing themselves on the same “side” as LEOs. Shared goal to put away those responsible for crimes. If someone on your “team” does something monumentally stupid, you’re more likely to extend the benefit of the doubt into outright credulity than for someone on the outside. Of course, perhaps if you have to work with a group day in and out, maybe there are more mercenary considerations that go into the thought process.

    wisco (39092e) — 5/30/2014 @ 2:23 pm

    Of course what you say is true. In the Torrance case I cited earlier, the assistant DA who declared a panicky officer’s shooting spree reasonable and justified actually went on to declare a whole different standard of self defense for police officers. If person A has threatened to kill cops, then the general atmosphere of fear allows them to try and kill persons X, Y, and Z.

    Try that line if you shoot through a door and kill a girl scout selling cookies, because an hour earlier your unhinged neighbor pounded on your door and threatened to get a gun and come back and kill you because your dog got out and pooped on his lawn.

    Think the DA will pronounce the killing reasonable and justified because of the atmosphere of fear creating heightened anticipation, as the assistant DA in the Torrance case did? Yeah, me neither.

    But then we also have to consider that a lot of prosecutors play fast and loose with the rules in order to get convictions. Recently a SC Supreme Court justice was in the news (again, no offense intended Pat, you strike me as scrupulously ethical) for threatening to take action against unethical prosecutors.

    Which struck a nerve among prosecutors, who now insist he recuse himself from all criminal cases. The state AG joined in and wrote this bizarre letter.

    http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/state_ag_joins_prosecutors_call_for_s.c._supreme_court_justice_to_be_recuse/

    …The attorney general said that Beatty’s “repeated admissions that the Court has previously ‘turned a blind eye’ to prosecutorial abuses, but now will not ‘protect your convictions,’ and instead will ‘take your licenses,’ could undermine public confidence in the Supreme Court.”

    Wilson characterized Beatty’s remarks as “confrontational and threatening” and added that “for him to leave each prosecutor with the impression that he or she is facing potential disbarment or other judicial sanction cannot help but harm prosecutors’ morale and discourage those who wish to make public service and prosecution their career….”

    No, Mr. Alan Wilson, it’s the reaction of prosecutors like you that undermines the public’s confidence in the legal system (one is hard pressed to call it a justice system). As noted in the comments at the link, each prosecutor is facing disbarment or other legal sanction every time they appear before a judge if they behave unethically. And it’s a high time they were reminded of that. But it’s exceedingly rare that a prosecutor is ever sanctioned by their state bar associations for unethical conduct. Apparently the AG of SC thinks the public can have confidence in the legal system because a rule that is virtually never enforced requiring prosecutors to behave ethically is on the books. But a judge threatening to enforce that rule undermines public confidence in that system. All the Attorney General of South Carolina did with his letter is confirm that unethical conduct among prosecutors is widespread. Otherwise, if they were already behaving ethically, threatening to enforce the ethics rules could have no impact upon their morale.

    So why wouldn’t DAs who see their job as putting the “right” people in jail damn the law or ethical rules circle the wagons to protect cops who behave stupidly, even criminally?

    Back to the Guerena video, I wanted to mention the most glaringly stupid part before anyone thinks I missed it. They didn’t go in. They just bunched up in the doorway. It’s why I mentioned when I was trained to clear spaces everybody stacked up in order of entry. Because you go through the freakin’ door. Since there was no perceivable order to these deadly clowns, I doubt they could have gotten through the door. Maybe that’s why they didn’t go in, because they were wedged in so tightly. But obviously not too tightly so that the guy with the shield could fall down.

    I was going to ask if this is some police thingy we didn’t learn in the Navy. Bust open the door, then stand in the doorway. Is it?

    Steve57 (61329d)

  83. 80. 76. max (4fdf98) — 5/30/2014 @ 2:12 pm

    the police chief should fire a cop who threw a stun grenade blind (and do everything in the chief’s power to keep him out of police work) because he is a danger to everyone around him, police or civilian

    The person he really should fire (or sue) is the person who taught himm to do that, or who taught the whole police department to do that.

    And the person who picked the teacher.

    And the person who recommended that training.

    Sammy Finkelman (b66da2) — 5/30/2014 @ 2:45 pm

    That would be the Sheriff, Joey Terrell. He needs to fire himself, since it was he who took the initiative to form his S.R.T. just last year.

    Steve57 (61329d)

  84. It’s the 99% that are giving the bad reputation to the 1% who don’t deserve it.

    this.

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  85. I think people dealing drugs out of a home with an infant in it are devoid of any culpability in this.

    JD (e5a0fa)

  86. from what i see, today’s cops are overarmed, under-trained, and massively out of control…

    this entire event reeks of poor training, appalling leadershit, excessive force and woefully inadequate training.

    the problem is, when you give wannabe fascists kewl new toys, they can’t wait to find an excuse to use them, and, if someone gets hurt, it’s the victim’s fault, not the thugs with the badges.

    hell, i had two LAPD cops draw down on me, in the middle of the day, while i was bare handed and only wearing shorts, t-shirt & shoes, while i was cleaning up a public right of way near my house.

    who knew that picking up trash was a death penalty offense?

    redc1c4 (abd49e)

  87. #85: do we even know for sure that drugs were being dealt there, or are there only allegations?

    absent a conviction, all you have is the word of people who blame others for the results of their irresponsible actions.

    redc1c4 (abd49e)

  88. For those wondering looks like the drug/weapons raid was a bust.

    Thonetheva faces no weapons charge in this week’s incident, and as for drugs, Terrell said officers found only residue in the home.

    So a CI’s word and not much else, other than a burned toddler. Sounds worth it. Of course they’re gonna nail that one on him.

    Habersham County Chief Assistant District Attorney J. Edward Staples said Thonetheva could also be charged in connection with the baby’s injuries.

    wisco (39092e)

  89. 15. …To do anything different is deliberate indifference, arguably approaching criminal misconduct, and there is simply no excuse for dropping a potentially deadly explosive device into a child’s crib!

    MJN1957 (d1de05) — 5/30/2014 @ 8:33 am

    I thought I’d go back to this it emphasize that I’m not slamming all cops. There are obviously very conscientious officers who care about doing their jobs ethically and are dedicated to public safety.

    Some goes for prosecutors.

    But there are plenty to whom that description doesn’t apply.

    Ibidem, I went to your link. Yes, it started out fishy, and the fish stink gets stronger by the minute. But it follows a pattern. The Guerena case, too, involved a confidential informant. Apparently Jose Guerena’s brother was involved in criminal activity. The police just assumed that Jose was as well, since the confidential informant linked Jose to his brother’s drug operation. They did no intelligence gathering of their own to confirm the CI’s information. They just took him at his word. As did the Habersham County Sheriff’s Dept. in this case.

    Had they gathered their own intel at least in the Guerena case they could have determined if their CI was telling the truth. They also could have determined that, since he worked at a mine in a remote area, there were lots of safer places to confront Guerena other than in his own home should that been necessary. But of course they didn’t bother. In the Guerena case it was just easier to lie that he had five felony arrests (he had none) with no convictions to get a search warrant.

    Of course in the Guerena case, as in the Ayers case at Ibidem’s link, the police tried to smear him after they murdered him. They tried to make him out as a bad guy because according to the police union spokesman he had “weapons, body armor, and a partial police uniform.”

    Yes, he had weapons. So do 50% of Americans. None of his weapons were illegal. The “partial police uniform?” He had a Border Patrol cap. As far as body armor goes I have no idea whether to believe these clowns considering how many times the changed their stories, with the police union lawyer sometimes giving a different story from the Sheriff’s dept. flack on the same day.

    But the guy was a Marine who had done a couple of tours in the sandbox. Would it be so strange if he had body armor? Am I the only one in America who remembers that Soldiers and Marines were dissatisfied with their issue body armor, and their families and friends were pitching in to privately purchase what they considered better armor like Dragon Skin? They were doing the same thing with mags for M9 pistols.

    And of note, it’s not illegal in most jurisdictions for most people to have body armor.

    All in all there’s a pattern that we see in these botched raids. Reliance on CIs, zero intel gathering by the cops, minimal if any mission planning, enormous training deficiencies, criminally negligent conduct resulting in serious injury or death, then a cover-up. And the cover-up, too, is typically sloppy. But it’s like the DAs know they can give the rest of us the finger.

    Steve57 (61329d)

  90. JD, it appears from the timeline supplied by the Sheriff, and the visiting family, that they were not in the house at the time the CI alleged that he made a drug buy at the house. The dealer was apprehended at a neighboring house where he had been staying since the visiting family arrived.
    The tragedy is that the Sheriff’s Dept made no effort to confirm who was, or was not, in the house in the intervening period from the buy to the raid.
    Sloppy police work which manifested itself in a tragic injury, and costs for the taxpayers of that county which could run into the million$ when all the dust settles.

    askeptic (8ecc78)

  91. Steve, if the Det’s on the case actually went out and did their homework, they wouldn’t have any time to chat up the tootsies at the local watering hole, and might have to spend more time with their wives and kids….
    Oh, the horrors.

    askeptic (8ecc78)

  92. wisco @87, I’d be curious to know what the residue was. Was it remotely connected to the drugs the CI said Thonetheva sold him? Meth, or pot?

    Clearly we’re not talking about a meth lab, since all they found was residue. If we can assume this crowd really did find any evidence and aren’t in full arse covering mode.

    Also a timeline would be nice. When does this CI say Thonetheva sold him the drugs? And when did the infant arrive in the home from Wisconsin? I would think it would be hard to charge someone with endangering a child, even if they were dealing drugs, if they sold drugs from a home before there were any children there to endanger.

    But then I don’t think like a thug or domestic terrorist. As increasingly law enforcement does.

    Steve57 (61329d)

  93. i don’t understand why we don’t know the name of the swat guy that mutilated the little baby

    are journalists as sloppy as cops, or is it vice versa?

    Maybe they trade off.

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  94. 87. JD, it appears from the timeline supplied by the Sheriff, and the visiting family, that they were not in the house at the time the CI alleged that he made a drug buy at the house.

    askeptic (8ecc78) — 5/30/2014 @ 5:06 pm

    Answers my question. It appears the murderous cops are just scapegoating the dealer for their own criminal negligence.

    Sorry if anyone finds that unduly harsh. I’m just looking at it from the perspective of who is the greater threat to my own well being. The meth dealer out in the countryside, or the militarized police who have a license to kill.

    Steve57 (61329d)

  95. the baby still has like a 50% chance of surviving Mr. 57

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  96. Flash-Banger ID: “We cannot divulge the identity of the officer as it is a continuing investigation and a personnel matter.”

    askeptic (8ecc78)

  97. 94. the baby still has like a 50% chance of surviving Mr. 57

    happyfeet (8ce051) — 5/30/2014 @ 5:18 pm

    Oh, well then, no harm no foul Mr. feets.

    Steve57 (61329d)

  98. they can’t release the name before the white wash dries completely.

    redc1c4 (abd49e)

  99. Maybe don’t have the pitcher on your slow pitch softball team toss the flashbang?

    My biggest beef with this is the: We followed protocol line of thought.

    As Mark Steyn pointed out today, the kids in Afghanistan would be brought up on charges and possibly courtmarshalled.

    Other than that, and assuming they got the right address, Do Not Sell Drugs Out of your HOME. I know the home office deduction sings a siren song there but really?

    steveg (794291)

  100. the cops aren’t even stepping up to pay the medical bills of the little baby they mutilated

    The family doesn’t have insurance. A family friend has set up a fund to help pay for Bou Bou’s medical treatment.

    Mutilating a little baby is one thing but compounding the worries of a worried sick family with worries about medical bills is just tacky.

    Get it together, losers.

    Atlanta should be deeply deeply ashamed.

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  101. Mr. askeptic my understanding is the investigation is over and Officer Baby Mutilator is on the beat taking no prisoners and looking forward to collecting a sweet sweet piggy pension at the age of like 45, 50 or whatever it is.

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  102. #91, Steve, who knows what the residue was? There’ve been no reports as to any drug lab verification and I seriously doubt any has been completed so far. For all we know at this point they could have found Gold Bond or Bigelow.

    JD@89, Do you have a link to that timeline? From reports I see that the raid took place shortly before 3am. Reports on the CI buy range from “hours before” to the day before. Which of course could be the same thing.

    wisco (39092e)

  103. 99. …Atlanta should be deeply deeply ashamed.

    happyfeet (8ce051) — 5/30/2014 @ 5:39 pm

    Minor quibble, this happened in Habersham County Georgia, population 49k give or take. So maybe the people of Atlanta, population 443k and change should feel ashamed, but they had nothing to do with it.

    Steve57 (61329d)

  104. Steve57 @ 83,

    SRT/SWAT capabilities ARE necessary, but they have to be used prudently with smart, rational leadership.

    My team would have been legally justified in using lethal force a documented 67 times in the period I commanded it (7 years) as determined by our thorough and legally-reviewed After Action Reports. We shot 17 people, only 3 of those were shot more than 2-times (our standard minimum engagement protocol) and none were shot more than 5 times. Every shot we fired but 2 hit a bad-guy/-girl, and one of those was caused by a faulty safety on a precision rifle (f’n Remington!!!)

    We used tactics that came from our experience and logic, not something we pulled out of our ass. I made-sure that I’d never have to stand in front of the public and tell them that we had shot-up a neighborhood and hit nothing but the ground, 2 houses, 3 cars, a dog, and a squirrel in the next county (true story about one of the other teams from a near-by city…well, except for the dead squirrel being in the next county).

    It is unconscionable to me to hear the ongoing stories like this one and others were dozens of rounds are fired and all are misses, people are shot 10′s-of-times, and houses are burned-down from tear-gas (FWIW, it isn’t just the local yahoos either. The FBI has made this particular tactic an art-form). It isn’t that I don’t understand that it can happen (I’ve set a car aflame with a distraction device while a hostage-taker and the hostage were still inside it!), but it happens so often now that it is looking like it is has become a deliberate tactic!

    That makes me sad because it is so wrong and SO unnecessary.

    Now that the pictures of the injured baby have come out, I got sick to my stomach thinking about how such a failure to follow the simplest safety rule (look before you throw) caused it, and how exceptionally easy it would have been to prevent it.

    Ugh…what’s happening to our public servants? …and why?

    MJN1957 (ced8e0)

  105. Appreciate the the recipe for that mighty tasty strawberry sauciness, happyfeet.
    Carlitos, I will try the pepper and berries.

    mg (31009b)

  106. a county with population 49k has a swat team?

    god bless america

    you are welcome Mr. mg if I wasn’t a useless lazy loser I’d go see about some strawberries right now

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  107. This is another Kathryn Johnston case, in my opinion. Totally bogus all the way through. As for charging the “dealer” with endangering a child, when he was not in the house and no drugs were found in the house — that’s Nifong. The family should contact the FBI about this. Send pictures of the baby. FBI agents have babies too.

    nk (dbc370)

  108. A few ideas that cross my mind (note: I’ve no idea how realistic these are, so please comment):
    1: NO MORE HEARSAY-even for warrants.
    The person alleged in a warrant request to originally have information about the suspect must swear to the accuracy of the facts reported under penalty of perjury.

    2: Corroboration if possible.
    If it’s not likely that they’ll be gone, at least 2 witnesses (see 1) must swear to facts which would separately be incriminating.

    3: If there was an incident, there was a cause. Acknowledge that cause. And if that cause was not in violation of procedures, you’d better have a good reason if you don’t change them.

    4: I wonder how much of a difference enforcement of a rule like the Pentateuch has for perjury would make: the punishment for a false witness is “as he thought to do to his brother.”

    Ibidem (3ede5e)

  109. MJN@103

    SRT/SWAT capabilities ARE necessary, but they have to be used prudently with smart, rational leadership

    I’m afraid that’s cold comfort for those of us on the other side of the line; hoping our jurisdictions have said same smart, rational leadership.

    What we need is clear laws (not policy)that dictates when such tactics can be used and preferably only in the direct attempt to save a life (other than the officers on the tac team). And then of course, real civil and criminal penalties for the very same officers who violate those laws and those responsible for them. Should the later actually happen, I would expect the map linked in #79 would dwindle to almost nothing in a very short time.

    wisco (39092e)

  110. 103. Steve57 @ 83,

    SRT/SWAT capabilities ARE necessary, but they have to be used prudently with smart, rational leadership.

    MJN1957 (ced8e0) — 5/30/2014 @ 5:59 pm

    We’re on the same sheet of music. If you go back through my comments, you’ll never find me arguing that these capabilities aren’t necessary. Just that police forces that employ these theoretical capabilities should actually have them.

    And if you don’t have the capability, don’t pretend you do.

    As far as I can tell for most police forces these types of units aren’t reflective of an actual need, but are prestige items. Consequently the goal is to have an SRT/SWAT team. But not actually to train one.

    I’ve commented before on the gulf between first world SOF/SPECWAR and the rest of the world. US SOF/SPECWAR, UK commonwealth SAS/SBS, etc., train to a very high standard. The rest of the world does not. They don’t have the budget. So when the Algerians have to take back a natural gas facility in the desert, or the Russians have to take back a Moscow theater or a Beslan school, their definition of success is very different from ours. What they call success results in the kind of casualty rate to hostages we’d call failure.

    I see a similar dynamic at play with the militarization of police forces. Does every rural or small town police force need a SWAT team? Can every police force afford a SWAT team? Is the tax base even there so these guys can train on the public dime?

    I don’t think so. I’m pretty sure Habersham County Georgia would be hard pressed to explain why it needs an SRT, since the need was only invented in 2013. That was my same beef with the Indiana Sheriff spokesman who brought up the 1997 North Hollywood shooting to explain why his county needs an MRAP in 2014. Because he can’t say that anything that actually happened in his town actually justifies an MRAP. It never happened. But it’s available so they want one, and unfortunately now they’re going to look for justifications to use it.

    If that’s your evidence, isn’t that evidence you have no need?

    My problem isn’t with police officers like you, MJN.

    Steve57 (61329d)

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    nike free run 2 norge (8a433d)

  112. #110

    Thanks. Instead of a go pro I’ll be duct taping the HTC to the kids forehead

    steveg (794291)

  113. a county with population 49k has a swat team?

    Well, somebody has to deal with the ‘skeeters.

    askeptic (8ecc78)

  114. MJN1957 — Your focused outrage shows that you are part of the 1% whose reputation is tarnished by those not listening to you, or ignoring what you’ve taught them.

    htom (5e323d)

  115. Police throwing an incendiary device into a suspected meth dealer’s place, meth explodes so I suspect these brain leaders wanted death. They just do not like the publicity of getting a toddler instead of their intended.

    jguy1957 (6560ae)

  116. Poor cops didn’t intend for this to happen?

    They’re supposed to intend that nothing like this ever happens.

    Effing incompetent awholes. Stick their kids in a room and take turns “intending” to miss them.

    bobby b (191130)

  117. “Sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice.
    – Eric Raymond

    Milhouse (b95258)


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