Patterico's Pontifications

12/20/2009

Protein Wisdom Alters Commenters’ Words to Mock Them

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 10:16 pm

Jeff Goldstein at Protein Wisdom has now taken to responding to people he doesn’t like by altering their comments to make them look stupid.

In this comment thread, we see these comments, purportedly from Patterico reader EricPWJohnson:

Eric Johnson Comment Altered

Eric Johnson Comment Altered 2

EricPWJohnson writes me to say that he did not write these words. He left comments, but they have been rewritten by Goldstein.

This also happened to me recently at Protein Wisdom. In a post that coupled my name with the terms “anti-Semite” and “asshole” (to better smear me on Google), we see this comment, purportedly by me:

Patterico Comment Altered Screenshot

That’s not what I wrote. The comment has been rewritten, under my name.

[UPDATE: See UPDATE x2 for yet another example of alteration — this time to commenter and Patterico supporter “Leo Tolstoy.”]

Anyone who comments at Protein Wisdom is potentially subject to this treatment — that is, if they leave comments critical of the site host.

In my case, my offense was posting comments at Goldstein’s site that quoted him making threats of violence to my commenters and various other people. This was done in response to Goldstein’s actions in posting several entries that have included my full name and job title (Los Angeles County Deputy District Attorney) coupled with the term “anti-Semitic.” Here is one example among several:

Patterico Anti-Semitic

The clear intent of these posts was to seed Google with disparaging references to me, that will (Jeff hopes) be found by people searching Google for my name and job title. It’s not mere argument; it’s an attempt to silence me through intimidation.

I decided to defend myself by putting on those threads (and several others, primarily where I had been slandered) comments that contain accurate quotes from Jeff Goldstein, with phrases like “I READILY ADMIT TO THREATENING TO BEAT CERTAIN PEOPLE’S ASSES” and “I’ll break him like a toothpick” and “I’d have no problem — and feel no guilt — about snapping their ACL” and “Just before I broke their fucking ankles” and “I would beat their ass without hesitation.” The content of the comments I left is here. It’s nothing but accurate quotes from Goldstein, designed to give casual Google surfers a picture of just who is writing these posts coupling my name and job title with (purportedly ironic) insinuations of anti-Semitism.

Goldstein evidently didn’t want me repeating his violent threats on the threads where he tried to slander me as an anti-Semite. So he has now taken to altering words posted under my name.

I have no idea how many times comments I left at Protein Wisdom have been altered. This one came to my attention only because commenter Pablo brought it to my attention (saying it was done for “lulz”).

I have seen behavior similar to this in the blogosphere only one time before — from a blogger calling himself the “Liberal Avenger.” I wrote about it at the time, and Cathy Young had this to say about the corrosive aspect of changing other people’s words:

Liberal Avenger’s “prank” is not only juvenile, unethical, and offensive; it is also dangerous to blog discourse. If people know that a blog administrator can tamper with comments at will, it could have a truly chilling effect on speech in the blogosphere. Any blogger, liberal or conservative, should take this very seriously indeed.

Commenter Bill Roper had this observation:

People with integrity think that editing someone’s comments in this way is always bad behavior.

People without integrity think that editing someone’s comments in this way is just fine, unless it is done to someone that they actually agree with.

I fall into the former category, and I pledge to you that I will not alter your words.

One thing is for certain, though: if this becomes an acceptable practice in the blogosphere, we are all at risk. I literally have no idea how many of my comments over the years have been modified at Protein Wisdom. Jeff Goldstein could have altered dozens or hundreds of my comments, for all I know. He might still be planning to.

When a blogger engages in behavior like this, how is one to trust anything posted at his site?

Like threatening violence, this is not a normal debating style. It’s a tactic designed to intimidate people who disagree with the blog host.

If you have commented there, it could happen to you, too.

UPDATE: Goldstein’s response is linked in the comments. He admits he altered EricPWJohnson’s comments. He admits he also altered comments from another supporter of mine going by “Leo Tolstoy.” But, he claims, Pablo is the one who altered my comment.

I don’t know why anyone would believe anything he says. But even if you did, he admits altering comments by my supporters — and he sanctions another person altering mine.

Again: it could happen to you. Maybe it already has.

UPDATE x2: As for “Leo Tolstoy,” I remember reading several measured comments by “Tolstoy” that took my position in this controversy, and told Goldstein he had acted badly. Here’s what Goldstein says about Tolstoy in tonight’s post:

I also altered the comments of “Leo Tolstoy” — who shouldn’t really mind, his being long dead. After Mr Tolstoy tried chewing up my bandwith by posting chapters from Ana Karenina, I didn’t much care what he had to say. I replaced long comments with things such as, “I adore ham.”

Reading that, you would get the impression you get is that “Leo Tolstoy” simply spammed chapters from the real Leo Tolstoy, and made no substantive comments. This is not the case. If it were, then would Goldstein alter one of his comments to complain that Tolstoy had run down Jeff Goldstein without having met him first?

Leo Tolstoy Screenshot

This could happen to anyone who comments at Goldstein’s site — that is, unless you agree with him. Then you’re probably OK.

UPDATE x3, HOPEFULLY FINAL UPDATE: Goldstein has now admitted changing around 270 links in almost 40 comments I made at his site. He admits doing this without any notice that the links had been changed.

What he doesn’t admit — but which is also true — is that he also changed the wording of several of my comments over there. For example, he added language to comments I left on posts written by Darleen Click and Dan Collins that makes it look like I criticized them as violent. I did not include that language; it was added by Goldstein, and it makes my comments look nonsensical. And again, there is no notice that the comments have been changed.

(He also has one of his minions trying to draw a false moral equivalence between his alteration of comments without notice, and a couple of instances where I changed comments with bracketed explanations, coupled with other examples that are even more misleading than that. The minion’s case appears compelling only until you click the links, at which point it falls apart and is revealed to be a dishonest smokescreen.)

More random evidence of widespread comment-altering without notice at Protein Wisdom: this comment was altered without notice, as caught by commenters here and here; alterations threatened by a
guest poster; an admission of over 100 alterations by Pub poster dicentra; and a commenter telling Goldstein that he disagrees with Goldstein’s practice of changing comments:

Which is why I’ve decided that the whole changing comments thing is such a bad idea. Not fisking them. Not adding snarky comments in brackets. But just flat out changing comments. Because if comments are what are causing the damage, then an accurate record is what is so necessary. Because if comments started getting changed, then anyone anywhere is vulnerable to being accused of something they didn’t do.

Now I think that you disagree with me on this. About the whole changing comments. Fair enough. On an earlier post I said that changing comments meant that we wouldn’t really be able to tell who was slandering and libeling people when it actually went to court.

And you responded that yes, the comments might be changed, but you kept a permanant record of the original on some sort of … internet tech…comment recording thingy. Which is good, but damages come from a public viewing of false facts, not a private one.

And it’s in the public verson of the comments where Goldstein’s alterations are not made clear to readers.

Which is why you can’t trust anything written at his site. Which is why I intend never to speak about it again. It is an utterly worthless site that has become nothing but the plaything of the site host, to fool the world about what you said by altering it without notice.

A site with so little integrity is not worth my time, or yours, and I’m sorry I wasted so much time writing about it in recent days. That ends, now.

251 Responses to “Protein Wisdom Alters Commenters’ Words to Mock Them”

  1. This whole thread has bored me to tears. UNTIL NOW.

    If a blogger is altering comments to make opposing commenters look stupid or intolerant AND THEN using these altered comments as evidence of same in blog posts …. I’d say the community should tell them to pack it in, they’re done. Compared to that, sock-puppets are benign.

    Anyone got some screen grabs or cache?

    Kevin Murphy (3c3db0)

  2. Alas! The Liberal Avenger is no more. He has gone onto other things.

    The Avenger's friend Dana (474dfc)

  3. It went beyond sock puppetry they were actually modifying my content 100%

    I was demanding that Jeff be specific about his latest rounds of non ironic threats….

    EricPWJohnson (9b7688)

  4. I haven’t followed this thread either but this sort of behavior is really sick. It’s bad enough that I was banned at Wash Monthly, and before that my comments would sometimes be deleted without notice so there would be other comments responding (usually nastily) to comments of mine that were gone. This is far worse. This is lying.

    Mike K (2cf494)

  5. This isn’t lting, Mike. This is forging, fraud and libel all rolled up into a new sin.

    Kevin Murphy (3c3db0)

  6. I’m also pretty sure, given the logins required to make these changes, that Protein Wisdom’s safe harbor against libel sleeps with the fishes.

    Kevin Murphy (3c3db0)

  7. So you’re 100% sure that he was actually editing your comments? That’s dumb. That’s dumb as hell. How could he think he’d get away with it? Dumb dumb dumb dumb stupid dumb.
    This doesn’t mean I don’t think Frey was acting like a vindictive jerk, but it does starkly show a crucial difference between the two. One is apparently dumb as a stump and one is not.

    Chaos (7c068a)

  8. As I understand it, Goldstein became obsessive over semantics and intentionalism, and then he started being attacked by an insane blogger, and then he went insane himself. It appears that there is a new sense in which insanity is hereditary

    I fear for Patterico.

    LTEC (f94006)

  9. It’s not sock-puppeting. The comments were left and then their content was altered.

    Patterico (1567c8)

  10. Either bring a lawsuit, or just proceed by ignoring this person Goldstein. Giving him any more attention at this blog appears to be just what he wants.

    Andrew (59b742)

  11. Chaos and Everyone

    I am currently working with several national retailers on site locations, Pat is working for the citizens of LA in a law and order public position

    altering our words – completely rewriting our posts is HUGELY dangerous and possibly damaging

    EricPWJohnson (9b7688)

  12. I’ve been ignoring the whole issue, but now? That’s just crazy wrong. The only time I’ve ever changed a commenter’s post is when the person asked me to correct a misspelling she was embarrassed about, which I did.

    Vivian Louise (643333)

  13. Eric, Patterico, no one said this was like sock-puppetry. I believe I said “Compared to that, sock-puppets are benign.”

    Kevin Murphy (3c3db0)

  14. I didn’t mean to minimize any of that eric, I was just struck much more by how stupid it is to do this thing in this day and age that my thoughts were dominated by that and consequently so was the comment. Im on my phone so I don’t really spend the time to comment on anything but my first impression. But still yes the two of you are held to standards of behavior that could be very damaged by a stunt like this. I dont think a Jayfree Gouldstine could pull off something truly harmful but someone else could if they thought they could get away with it.

    Chaos (7c068a)

  15. Either bring a lawsuit, or just proceed by ignoring this person Goldstein. Giving him any more attention at this blog appears to be just what he wants.

    Good advice from Andrew. What advice does Karl give you, John Patrick Frey? Maybe to do something everyone thinks you should do…

    Give up. Leave it. Pass. Quit. Throw in the towel. Before this gets past even your level of control.

    You’ve lost, and you can’t stand it.

    Quit. Now.

    You hoped to spam enough threads on PW (65 at last count) to cause Jeff G to ban you, so’s you could come back and make some lame ‘point’ or another. If Jeff altered the comments, you deserved the alterings, because you’ve been such an internet prick.

    Oh, from me, on Twitter:

    @Patterico Asst Deputy DA of Los Angeles John Patrick Frey descends into bloggy madness pro, personal lives to follow? http://bit.ly/5ZPB44

    …in reply to your name-bashing attack on Jeff Goldstein (which you did in reply to his g00gle bashing you; but his response was identical to your multi-post attack on RS McCain: what goes around, comes around. Learn it, or live it.)

    Enjoy!

    serr8d (10344e)

  16. Real World, Blogistan. Shit got serious.

    imdw (c06324)

  17. If Jeff altered the comments, you deserved the alterings, because you’ve been such an internet prick.

    So lying is justified because an adult male was annoyed and irritated by another adult male’s prickish behavior? And that the lying was done by someone you admire, you are willing to excuse it? That seems rather sycophantic, no?

    You see, that’s the difference between me, a commenter at Pattericos, and you, a commenter at PW: No matter how much I admire Patterico, if he’s caught in a bald-face lie, I would lose respect for him and most certainly, would not try to justify and rationalize it in any way because the bottom line is, he knows right from wrong.

    But perhaps Mr. Goldstein will behave honorably and come clean, asking his readers forgiveness. Perhaps…

    Dana (f64b7d)

  18. What the heck? Did I imagine I saw srraded8 (or some name like that) attempting to justify the lying of Mr. Goldstein? The comment now however, is gone.

    [My fault, Dana. Serr8d was put in moderation yesterday but used another IP to comment today. I’ll approve the comment you responded to but future comments by serr8d may be moderated if I see them. — DRJ]

    Dana (f64b7d)

  19. Patrick or Stashiu, would one of you please delete my #16 & #17, as I feel rather foolish now that the original comment I was responding to is gone. You really should give a girl a warning…

    Dana (f64b7d)

  20. its OK Dana…. i figured you’d hit him with the clue bat so hard that he vaporized. %-)

    redc1c4 (fb8750)

  21. I just got back so I’m still getting caught up. The comment by serr8d is in moderation by DRJ since serr8d left an earlier comment talking about Patterico’s job. You’re not crazy, the comment may be released (DRJ did the moderation and serr8d was kind enough to cut&paste the moderator comment over at PW.) The comment you saw may be released later, it’s up to DRJ (I’m not touching it). We rarely delete comments and yours does not reflect badly because everyone will understand.

    Stashiu3 (44da70)

  22. here’s something else to ponder: if they will alter comments, what won’t they alter? posts? facts in a story or report?

    sorry, but the vast sucking sound you heard a bit ago was every shred of credibility PW ever possessed disappearing into the void. everything on their site is now in question, unless verified from the outside. they might as well just close down.

    redc1c4 (fb8750)

  23. “What the heck? Did I imagine I saw srraded8 (or some name like that) attempting to justify the lying of Mr. Goldstein? The comment now however, is gone.”

    Pretty soon we won’t be able to believe anything!

    imdw (6c7db3)

  24. Dana,the comment you quoted was really the only one that mattered. I saw it too. Although red’s comment about the clue bat is even better.

    I don’t think I’m even surprised at this. Hopefully, it’s time for him to go back into hiding very soon. After a few days of blegging of course.

    PrimeTime (c2c6c2)

  25. Hmmm a Protein Wisdom Tresest about Alinsky and “the ends justify almost any means”. http://www.proteinwisdom.com/pub/?p=1931

    I really dig the justification for Rule 10 — “You do what you can with what you have and clothe it with moral garments” — for its utter moral bankruptcy. Here we get more of Alinsky’s formulation of morality as a posture that serves the end.

    From a http://proteinwisdom.com/?p=13309 we find:

    A free society cannot run this way. If information is power, those who control the information and its mainstream dissemination are in a position to act as the most important swing vote in any election. That the press has given up, at this late stage (and despite declines in readership and public trust), any serious attempt to report objectively suggests that we are now quite immersed in a battle for the very principles of a democratic republic. Progressives have decided that the ends justify the means — that lies in the service of greater truths (as defined by their own ideology) are both pragmatic and utilitarian measures to be adopted so that “we” can finally get things “right,” and accept government from a permanent political class, a new aristocracy, that will expand the federal government in ways that will protect us from ourselves, in the process, assuring that ever new generations will be reliable upon the good graces of the federal government for their survival.

    How progressive of Jeff.

    BfC (5209ec)

  26. I restored serr8d’s comment #15, and my apologies to Dana. I did not see her replies.

    DRJ (84a0c3)

  27. I approved Serr8d’s comment. Note the thuggish reference to my job.

    Patterico (1567c8)

  28. BfC, I don’t particularly want to go dumpster diving over at PW, but if JG actually wrote “…Progressives have decided that the ends justify the means — that lies in the service of greater truths (as defined by their own ideology) are both pragmatic and utilitarian measures to be adopted so that “we” can finally get things “right,”….“, then all he can respond with is the comment from the Left that always irritates folks:

    …that’s different

    Wow. Just wow.

    Also, altering comments to make the commenter “look bad” is not exactly mature. Defending that kind of thing? Again, wow.

    Eric Blair (c8876d)

  29. it must really suck to take your best troll shot, and have the recipient laugh at you….

    “serr8d” just got pwned.

    redc1c4 (fb8750)

  30. Stop obsessing. It’s creepy.

    John (62fb6f)

  31. Re. comment #15, I disagree with everything except the first three sentences.

    Andrew (59b742)

  32. Whatever remained of Godlstein’s integrity and sanity is circling down the bowl.

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (9eb641)

  33. I was able to keep pretty clean… Just do a google on a phrase like “the ends justify the means” and add “site:proteinwisdom.com”

    By the way, the first post is from user “dicentra” (whoever that is) and the second is from a article poster called “Jeff G.”…

    Sorry, I messed up the links:

    First Quote from dicentra’s article
    Second Quote from Jeff G.’s article

    BfC (5209ec)

  34. Stop obsessing. It’s creepy.
    Comment by John — 12/20/2009 @ 3:51 pm

    Every comment you’ve made is just like this. It’s creepy.

    Stashiu3 (44da70)

  35. I guess we restored it at the same time.

    Patterico (9c416d)

  36. Maybe Deb Frisch did not write those horrendous posts about Jeff’s family. Perhaps the comments were post-edited.

    Kind of easy to flush a reputation…

    BfC (5209ec)

  37. Well, this behavior of his is not acceptable.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  38. I hate to break this to you, but you’ve BOTH looked like morons through all of this. Maybe it isn’t obvious because you can both go into your corners and get sponged by your sycophants, but the only way one of you will manage to salvage a semblance of your manhood is by being the one with the sense to stand down and wash your hands of this whole embarrassing spectacle. The last one to open his pie hole loses.

    Steve (682c85)

  39. #38: i have to disagree: it evidently is, or they wouldn’t have done it…. or were you talking about regular, ethically grounded, rational people, instead of internet crazies?

    redc1c4 (fb8750)

  40. There is only one way to deal with tools like that and that is to make them a pariah and do NOT link to them and do not visit their site. They will eventually tire of writing for themselves and disappear.

    Jaded (018064)

  41. Eric B

    He completely changed my comments – wrote things I didnt write at all

    And On more than one comment and in the latter ones they changed – I was ASKED to RESPOND by HIM and his people only to have them completely change them where my Father, my mother, my daughter, her commanders and classmates at West Point, my business associates can all see these comments forever on the internet

    And I’m banned – who knows what they are doing to my answering their very own questions.

    This happened a few years back with a conservative blog that was trying to compete for the nasty class discourse award the tools at Lonestartimes changed my comments some years ago over the Ramos and Compean thing and linked some of my words to sites that are banned by Qtel and could have gotten me arrested in an Arab country and inprisoned as I am a part time resident of Qatar and they all knew it at the time

    Now we see Jeff trying to destroy Pats reputation and his personal life because Jeff says stupid things and no one can challenge him on it.

    Jeff can issue threats make comments like he’s going to snap people in two and he’s trained to do it

    Yet everyone is excusing the guy

    EricPWJohnson (9b7688)

  42. It is my current plan to let this post be the last one concerning Goldstein.

    He will never stop. As in March, I will have to be the one to stop the back and forth.

    He and his commenters will try to justify this. He will likely attempt to escalate again.

    But I do not dance to his tune. My mind can always change, but I am satisfied with what I have said.

    Patterico (9c416d)

  43. EPWJ, this is not a good situation. And the part that is weird is the faux-machismo shown by the defamers and alterers of comments.

    Especially in light of the criticisms made of lying about others. But, again, it appears to be different when they do it.

    All this really gives blogging a good name, huh?

    Eric Blair (0b61b2)

  44. Steve

    Really? Pat was a moron – how?

    Jeff and Pat disagreed over what rush Limbaugh met and then Jeff started in on Pat personally and kept on and kept on

    All Patterico has done – was to keep quoting Jeff’s threats and Pat didnt even get all of them a new bunch started and I came in and finally pinned Goldstein down and said = what EXACTLY do you mean?

    Thats it – totally it – oh darleen accused me of being an alcoholic – which hurts me in Qatar where some GCC residents appreciate the fact that I never ever drink

    And so many others – so stupid – Jeff still would not tell us EXACTLY what he meant with SPECIFICS

    And then Jeff said his threats were only in self defense that people at patterico have threatened and disparaged his good famiy

    So I asked him to give SPECIFIC instances where he was indeed threatened and to out these people

    thats when I was banned and my comments changed forever into something they deliberately did to cause me grevious injury as well as changing Pats as well.

    EricPWJohnson (9b7688)

  45. Now, I begin to see a pattern here, does Jeff work for the CRU in East Anglia?

    ropelight (b3725d)

  46. .

    Properly designed software would not encourage this, or at least, would acknowledge it has happened by
    — “This comment was edited by the site proprietor. To see the original comment, click here” —
    and provide a link to the original comment.

    I recommend you complain to WordPress that this is a seriously egregious “misfeature” on their part.

    You can register a complaint at the link below (registration required, but just use a “spam” address like a newly created one at Yahoo.com, if you want)

    http://en.forums.wordpress.com/forum/support#postform

    I’ve done so, but I recommend that you politely indicate that you plan to avoid all blogs that are wordpress based unless they indicate they’ve fixed this “misfeature”. The more people complain about this, the better.

    It would be good if PW would voluntarily not do what they have apparently done, but the fact is it shouldn’t be anything but damning of the site in question as an untrustworthy site, and the proprietor as an untrustworthy person.

    O Bloody Hell (8ca3a3)

  47. Must I really get into specifics EPWJ? He said, she said, drama, a million moving parts – I don’t give a crap at this point. Is it not sufficient to say that following this whole thing from an emotional distance has left me feeling embarrassed for everyone involved?

    Steve (682c85)

  48. It’s amazing that some are saying this is justified because of what a jerk Patterico is. Why is he a jerk? Well, because we’re really MAD MAD MAD is why!

    But his being a ‘jerk’ isn’t justified at all. Threats, racism, fraud comments… that’s justified by Patterico blogging his fucking opinions. We get it. OUTLAW.

    And now, Patterico should just ignore it. He shouldn’t blog repeatedly about it, so as to document it and get attention to it and hope that people looking into the matter get to the truth. He should just shut up and take it, because Jeff wants attention.

    No, Jeff doesn’t want attention. He’s responding to the fact that Patterico keeps on dusting himself off and stating his mind. Jeff’s tired, losing, and getting uglier, if that was even possible after threatening to break ankles or inventing a racism lie.

    Dustin (44f8cb)

  49. I have to wonder what an upstanding forthright observer of the Old Testament did to get him thrown out of Pajamas Media. Perhaps lie and falsify others’ work while threatening grievous bodily harm to his detractors?

    John Hitchcock (3fd153)

  50. Steve, if a tree falls in the forest and hits you on the head, does it make a sound?

    John Hitchcock (3fd153)

  51. Steve, if you think that everyone is equally embarrassing, then you really are not paying attention.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  52. steve, you’re embarrassing yourself. You don’t think people should stand up to bullies and put up a noisy fight or blog their opinions that threaten your fragile little mind.

    Patterico had an in depth set of arguments. People got heated in the exchange, but kept trying to persuade eachother. No shit a lot of people don’t care. That’s the nature of the internet. But that’s not equivalent to the threats, the racism slurs, the now fraud.

    TAKE A SIDE, or stay out of it. Making a point that you are upset with both sides, or otherwise equivocating, only makes the point that you cannot distinguish between truly horrible, immoral, unacceptable behavior, and someone being extremely repetitive or saying stuff you don’t agree with.

    Dustin (44f8cb)

  53. John, I think Jeff got dropped from PJM’s ad network when everyone did. PJM wasn’t making money, effectively overpaying bloggers. It sucked for everyone to artificially increase the lucrative side of blogging, and a lot of people thought it sucked.

    Of course, it was a contract, PJM followed it an even gave a lot of extra notice. PW wasn’t entitled to more than that. A fair deal wasn’t good enough for Jeff, because he is an egomaniac.

    Dustin (44f8cb)

  54. P.S. I’ve always despised wordpress. It’s some of the most incompetently written blogware there is. I cannot describe the number of times I’ve lost long, carefully written comments to the air as a result of its massive bugs.

    I usually avoid sites that use it, for that reason alone.

    O Bloody Hell (8ca3a3)

  55. Depending upon your WordPress version, the site owner only (Version 1.5+) or an administrator (Version 2.3+) can edit a comment. When LA edited a couple of comments a few years ago, while I thought it was one of his co-bloggers, only LA himself could have done it, due to the version he was using.

    I have edited comments on my site to include paragraph breaks for overly-long run-on comments, to correct spelling or a broken hyperlink, and in one case to delete a politician’s name that someone was trying to use my site to “out” as a closeted homosexual. I’ve also added a couple of YouTubes to other people’s comments, when all they could do was add the link. But when I do this, I always indicate it at the bottom of the comment.

    I’ve seen several instances in which our host has done the same thing, and indicated that he edited the comment; that’s a perfectly reasonable use of the function.

    The blogger Dana (474dfc)

  56. O Bloody Hell wrote:

    I usually avoid sites that use it, for that reason alone.

    Uhhh, OBH, this is a WordPress blog.

    The blogger Dana (474dfc)

  57. Goldstein is encouraging his commenters to collect the comments I have allegedly made there over the past 3-4 days and send them to him in a text file so he can publish them.

    And, they’re told, they need to “take sides.”

    No doubt there will be some I wrote and some I didn’t.

    Me, I’m going to enjoy Christmas. I don’t plan to respond to whatever grand response he is planning.

    Patterico (9c416d)

  58. He did not indicate that he had edited MY comment. Who knows how long it was like that before Pablo snickered to me about it. Who knows what other comments of mine he has changed.

    I am with family and resent the time already spent today on this. But this post had to be written, once I learned what was happening.

    Patterico (9c416d)

  59. Trainwreck of the crazy.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  60. Goldstein is encouraging his commenters to collect the comments I have allegedly made there over the past 3-4 days and send them to him in a text file so he can publish them.
    And, they’re told, they need to “take sides.”
    Comment by Patterico — 12/20/2009 @ 4:58 pm

    Umm… someone said he has login, so a username search will bring up every comment you’ve ever left there. He should be able to do that within minutes… and that’s if he is slow. Even if he doesn’t, it’s still quick and easy for an admin to do. As far as taking sides, sounds like anyone trying to continue at both sites is going to face a hard time at PW. Speaks for itself.

    Stashiu3 (44da70)

  61. Dustin

    They kept some bloggers let some go – converted them into writers

    EricPWJohnson (9b7688)

  62. “Uhhh, OBH, this is a WordPress blog.

    Comment by The blogger Dana ”

    All due respect to all the hard work put into this blog, but it doesn’t have the best reliability record of reliability or anything. Kinda goes with the territory of having huge, huge spikes in readership because you blog about stuff that appeals to an audience beyond a small number of idiots who think Jeff’s antics are interesting or tolerable.

    Dustin (44f8cb)

  63. Eric, thanks for clarifying. Just imagine if PJM had kept Jeff on. They would have a scandal that makes Jason Blair look like the pope.

    Whoever decided to keep Jeff out was doing PJM a pretty big favor.

    Dustin (44f8cb)

  64. Presenting, as true, a falsified version of your words to make them anti-Semitic (and then trumpeting, SEE? ANTI-SEMITE!), is libel.

    Mitch (e40959)

  65. It seems pretty safe to say that the actions of Mr. Goldstein place him several levels beneath pond scum, of the type that aggregates on the bottom of the pond.
    If his actions have tended to bring disrepute upon those whose words he has altered, he should be make to account for those actions in a Court of Law, and his site should be taken down.

    AD - RtR/OS! (1217bb)

  66. The final blow to JG’s sanity came when he realized that nobody, but nobody, was going to shell out $20/month for his turgid verbal navel-gazing at The Qor. Turns out there’s no market for pieces like his typical “Plow Through These Eight Thousand Words In Search of a Point” essay.

    gp (f596a1)

  67. They have truly turned into a group of whiny defensive heathers over there. A bigger group of sand-filled pussies and manginas I have not witnessed since I last lingered at one of the feminist blogs.

    Excuse my French.

    daleyrocks (718861)

  68. Ace and his moderators do it all the time. And it is done for laughs with people they find annoying. Probably a better approach is to stop posting on PW and, hope against hope, drop this silly blog fight.

    Dave (3dac88)

  69. Perhaps you could simply invite Mr Goldstein to visit you in southern California, for steaks cooked out in the back yard with that fabulous view you have, and bury the hatchet — hopefully not in someone’s head — on this matter.

    By the way, a comment of mine there. just about football, mind you, didn’t appear; I don’t know if that means I’ve been banned or it just went into moderation.

    The always helpful Dana (474dfc)

  70. I’ve removed PW from my side-bar. And I would rather invite JeffyG to a 6-hour sit-down on the far-northeast side of Chicago, especially this time of year. I don’t want to spend my time on sites that do JeffyG-type stuff and I don’t want to provide links to those sites.

    John Hitchcock (3fd153)

  71. TAHD,
    Comments can go into moderation at the software’s whim. This is one of the few problems I have with WordPress, which I like a lot.

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (9eb641)

  72. Comments that have gone into moderation on my site have nearly all been the result of my “bad word” list. If you “assume” something, you’ll get thrown into moderation because of a bad word. If you are polite enough to call me Mr Hitchcock, you’ll get thrown into moderation because of a bad word. Funny how that list captures a heck of a lot of stuff.

    John Hitchcock (3fd153)

  73. “Ace and his moderators do it all the time. And it is done for laughs with people they find annoying. Probably a better approach is to stop posting on PW and, hope against hope, drop this silly blog fight.

    Comment by Dave ”

    I think there’s a pretty significant distinction.

    Ace does not take comments quoting him and disputing his claims seriously, and then insert fake anti-semitism. Usually, the sock puppetting is obvious by the obfuscated IP thing at that blog, as well as the over the top humor (such as the Jeff G sockpuppet there being a ridiculous internet tough guy, and even noting that he’s a sockpuppet).

    Not that your comparison can’t be made, but I think there’s a huge difference. Not only is a substantive point being deleted, but replaced with something that makes Patterico quote the old testament for no reason and act like a nazi. I disagree that he can just walk away from that. At the very least, he has to point out that this is not him speaking.

    Dustin (44f8cb)

  74. Isn’t that defamation? Patterico’s a lawyer, why can’t he send a cease and desist?

    Audacity (2fd5ad)

  75. P.P.S. — WordPress is a total piece of garbage. The people involved are all jackasses and deserve to be confined to the dustbin of history.

    :-/

    “It’s not our problem. We could care less about the crappy design.”

    I will never, ever pay any attention to a wordpress.com blog ever again.

    Any site op that uses those incompetent “not my problem” pr**** is at best a complete fool.

    And I don’t think too much of wordpress.org either.

    O Bloody Hell (8ca3a3)

  76. PROTEIN WISDOM

    THE POWER OF HATE

    CATCH THE FEVER!!!!!

    IF YOU DISAGREE WITH US WE’LL SNAP YOUR ANKLES AND CALL YOUR BOSS

    FOR TEH UNITY OF TEH CAUSE!!!!

    cuz we know how language funkshunz

    daleyrocks (718861)

  77. Audacity,

    If there’s one thing the internet hates more than a toughguy troll liar, it’s a bona fide legal threat. Jeff’s tortproof, anyway. Spending $25,000 suing a penniless loser for his Xbox and discredited URL login would be waste of time when a blog post gets the point across that Patterico isn’t really responsible for whatever is attributed to him at PW.

    Dustin (44f8cb)

  78. It’s interesting that PW is on Patterico’s side-bar, albeit with a dead link.

    Kevin Murphy (3c3db0)

  79. This is it’s clear that JeffG doesn’t understand what it means to be a classical liberal. His response is classic leftist/Progressive; because he has access to teh truth, anyone who disagrees with him must be either evil or stupid. That’s why he so quick to attack reputations, tattle to employers, and make all sorts of outlandish comments. He’s become exactly what he purports to hate.

    Fritz (48e70e)

  80. I’m curious, does Patterico have legal recourse? I’m not saying that he should or would, but could he sue and win? Is there any legal precedent for a lawsuit based on a website admin changing a comment to cast the commenter in a bad light?

    Soothsayer (14eb1d)

  81. > > > I usually avoid sites that use it, for that reason alone.

    > Uhhh, OBH, this is a WordPress blog.

    Hence the term “usually”. Offhand, this is the only site i’ve paid regular attention to of late (and that’s only recently, even at that) which is associated with WP.

    Tygrr Express is a prime example. I was paying attention to that site for a couple weeks. About the fifth time I lost a comment post after working on it for a while, I quit bothering to pay any attention there.

    WordPress sucks, pure and simple.

    O Bloody Hell (8ca3a3)

  82. I’ll leave the pingback. I will add this: the comments from “Leo Tolstoy” were long, thoughtful comments arguing that Goldstein had behaved badly with respect to me.

    Before Goldstein altered them.

    Which he tries to justify by arguing that the real Leo Tolstoy is dead. Therefore altering the comments of a commenter using that name is fair game, apparently, in his view.

    Patterico (9c416d)

  83. Soothsayer,

    As pointed out, it would be silly to bring legal action over this.

    But it was necessary for me to write the post.

    Patterico (9c416d)

  84. For the record, Joe keeps trying to comment after being banned. I keep deleting them before they are seen… because he is banned. It’s not dishonest to delete comments from someone who is banned. I would post this over at PW, but I’d rather not have any direct contact. I would also leave a private moderator comment for Joe explaining all this, but serr8d already showed that those aren’t really private by cut&pasting it at PW. No problem, I don’t mind saying it in public. Joe is banned and his comments are not allowed here. Not because they’re nasty, ill-informed, or poorly-written… it’s because he is banned.

    Stashiu3 (44da70)

  85. OBH wrote:

    Hence the term “usually”. Offhand, this is the only site i’ve paid regular attention to of late (and that’s only recently, even at that) which is associated with WP.

    Ahhh, but you should visit my poor, humble site, which uses WordPress, true enough, but is very user friendly and a lot of fun too boot. Comments do go into moderation at times, almost always due to a mod queue word, but they always get released. And since one of my friends suggested that I post some cheesecake, I have even done that.

    I’m just shameless, I know.

    The Dana more than willing to troll for traffic (474dfc)

  86. Patterico,

    Thanks for responding. But I’m not asking if it would be silly or pointless or counterproductive to bring legal action–I’m asking if you, or someone in a similiar position to yours, could win such a lawsuit. Is there any precedent?

    I don’t know you, so I can’t say what I would do in your situation, but if someone were to change my comments to make me look anti-semetic or racist or even just plain old stupid, I would sue. I would sue to protect my reputation, and I would sue to dissuade others from doing the same thing to me or anyone else. I don’t know about legal precedent, but I can recognize the seriousness of the threat that this presents to the blogosphere.

    Soothsayer (14eb1d)

  87. ace does it to trolls who never post anything but insults and liberal blogosphere talking points

    chaos (7c068a)

  88. Jeff Goldstein appears to be a Class “A” asshole with much too much time on his paws.

    GeneralMalaise (a38f27)

  89. A lawsuit would prompt a(nother) blizzard of abuse… some of it from me.. “sack up, bitch” I think someone said….

    Anyway each person has their strengths and weaknesses and I dislike and like them both equally… and then I look in the mirror and remember that I can be an ass too…. consistency is my forte, I am ALWAYS an ass.
    Just kidding. I can be wonderfully gracious and kind…… *chirp*….. right? Hey, come on… so I made change in the salvation army pot for a fiver and somehow came out up $20.
    Not evil, just a bad person… I should make a bumpersticker

    SteveG (6fa662)

  90. My crew is guilty of altering comments, but only in the most obvious fashion. It’s not a serious place after all.

    As far as the chilling effect goes, it doesn’t work that well on trolls.

    I think my personal favorite was a guy who was really long-winded and I added at the end “and I really like the feel of shaven cats against my skin.”

    Aside from doing it to be obvious, it’s a low rent way to put points on the board.

    The Rude dog (1f4000)

  91. #91: Steve, you typoed “just a sad person”….

    HTH! HAND…………..

    %-)

    redc1c4 (fb8750)

  92. Sad as in “sorry assed…”?

    SteveG (6fa662)

  93. Now I hear that violence prone blogger Jeff Goldstein of Protein Wisdom is plumbing new depths of insanity, not that I am calling him violent or insane. I am expressly not calling Jeff Goldstein violent or insane.

    daleyrocks (718861)

  94. If only this whole episode weren’t so, and that you fellows could go back to a peaceful coexistence; a result I’m praying for…

    Bob Reed (99fc1b)

  95. if only, but alas.

    Actually, ignoring a disgraced and defunct PW is peaceful enough.

    Dustin (44f8cb)

  96. you tell me Steve; is “sad” the same as “sorry assed”, a condition which you obviously are willing to admit you possess?

    to me they aren’t necessarily the same, but then again, english is only my first language. please feel free to elucidate. are you just “sorry assed” but not “sad”, or are you both? inquiring minds want to know.

    redc1c4 (fb8750)

  97. Do we know for sure that it was Jeff that did this? It sounds more like Darleen. (I don’t visit there anymore. It’s too much like swimming in a sewer.)

    nk (df76d4)

  98. Pablo said he altered Patterico’s comment. I don’t know about the other ones.

    DRJ (84a0c3)

  99. Pablo. It makes sense. There’s bug#$%^ crazy Jeff, and loyalist Darleen, and crawly little worm Pablo.

    nk (df76d4)

  100. PW tw: Hive mind

    daleyrocks (718861)

  101. Patterico has updated this post.

    DRJ (84a0c3)

  102. Patterico, in law school or elsewhere, have you ever run across “The Rule in Spot’s Case”?

    Has anyone else? (I’m thinking of writing a post about it on my own blog, and I’m just curious if I’ll be writing on a blank slate.)

    Beldar (0f6381)

  103. […] I’d comment on his site, but either he or one of his sycophants would just change my words, mainly because they can’t think of anything intelligent to say. […]

    The Jury Talks Back » Honey, come quick! (e4ab32)

  104. As a reader of both Patterico and Protein Wisdom, I have been following this contretemps in slack-jawed amazement. I really don’t understand how two intelligent adults can lock themselves into such a silly waste of time. Two shark-like egos accompanied by a host of sycophant remoras, engaged in a monumental waste of time and energy.

    Meanwhile, our beloved Congress goes about its business of wasting our tax dollars and putting us on the path to ruin.

    But, hey, who am I to say what is more important?

    Alan (7f4930)

  105. […] I’d comment on his site, but either he or one of his sycophants would just change my words, mainly because they can’t think of anything intelligent to say. […]

    The Jury Talks Back » Quickly, to the blogs!! (e4ab32)

  106. I updated the post again, to address Goldstein’s comments about “Leo Tolstoy.”

    He is engaging in further escalation, as I expected he would. I do not plan to do so. I plan to enjoy the Christmas season. I hope all of you do as well.

    Patterico (4ef72a)

  107. Perhaps in the day of acoustically coupled modems, book chapters would “chew up bandwidth”, but in the day where things are measured in megabits/second that’s pretty weak stuff.

    Kevin Murphy (3c3db0)

  108. Nothing in my noggin, Beldar.

    nk (df76d4)

  109. Assholes, misfits, scoundrels abound in this digitized world of such instant gratification. There are far too many willing to invoke their biases against you at any time for any reason.

    But when a person takes on a public blog they take what I think is an oath. An oath pretty much based on what they will or will not allow to be posted on their site.

    Some won’t let you say fuck, or other words deemed offensive to the general audience they attempt to cater to. They set those rules and all desiring to post should abide by them. Most places I’ve hung around, most folks seem to do just that.

    When someone gets out of line, I see no problem with creative editing displaying [that such a phrase] is not exactly what the op wrote.

    But to just blatantly change the words of some other person? FUCK THAT!!!

    Oh and yes I have been a direct victim of such as well.

    Remember this, a site is only as good as those that participate and provide added content via comments.

    Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice,,,,, FUCK you and your site! Fallout to follow. EOL

    TC (0b9ca4)

  110. “Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice,,,,, make me a fried peanut butter and banana sandwich and don’t hold the bacon grease, Red.”

    – Fat Elvis, circa 1974

    GeneralMalaise (a38f27)

  111. Haven’t apprised myself of the particulars, of this virtual scrimmage. Nor … comments in the thread. Jiff G’s always been a smelly turd. Always will be. My direct (virtual) experience with Jiffypoop? Generally mirrors those … who have found him to be a person of low character. Without any redeeming qualities or integrity.

    Pictures from Pajamas Media First Thanksgiving.

    Since Alarming News “Ann Althouse has problems” post ..

    Pajamas Media involved in an internet war with a bunch of *ssholes.

    gosh …. do I feel stupid.

    The last provided (self) link, gives the most (relevant) clarity. The amazing thing? How many d o z e n s of posts I made. How many gallons of virtual ink I spilled, over the Pajamas Media freaks. In my first three months on the sphere [and yeah, some quite funny stuff there, in my archives/first three months … bellee dat! (those were the days … I even had readers)].

    Amazing.

    What were we talkin’ bout again?

    Elmo (435406)

  112. Usually, the sock puppetting is obvious by the obfuscated IP thing at that blog…

    While they post as sockpuppets, that’s not what I am referring to. They change the comments of people they find annoying. They’ve been doing it for years and it is not uncommon.

    ace does it to trolls

    Who is/is not a troll is subjective.

    This fight is doing no one any good. Patterico said he is dropping it. I hope he sticks to it. If not, maybe a 3rd party blogger can mediate an agreement between the two. Also, naturally, every one wants to defend their guy, but commenters at each blog are not helping by constantly throwing gasoline on the flames.

    Dave (3dac88)

  113. DRJ is one of the lesser-known delights at Chez Patterico.

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (9eb641)

  114. Christoph used a very bad insult against DRJ. Now he seems to have found a way to bypass the ban filter. Please ignore him until his new IP can be banned again.

    nk (df76d4)

  115. I guess I am not clear why a person who is banned would want to post to a site that banned him or her? It would seem to me the best course would be to write privately to the banner.

    Eric Blair (ddbceb)

  116. […] accuses Jeff of editing comments on his blog, because one of his was altered by a Jeff reader/colleague over at […]

    “Obsession Is a Young Man’s Game.” | Little Miss Attila (62389c)

  117. Christoph, you don’t seem “long-winded” and “only interested yourself.”

    Could it be that Goldstein is wrong about something? No, that can’t be it. He’s never wrong about anything.

    In the end, Christoph, I got you beat: Goldstein banned me after I p3wned him, threatened years ago to beat me me up, and continues to whine on various blogs that I comment here. Goldstein is such a touchy, little pansy.

    PS Oh, and stacy mccain is a racist, white nationalist and Goldstein champions his racism.

    timb (449046)

  118. Back to the part about banning and/or changing what people wrote… I like the idea of simply deleting everyhing they wrote (except the fact that they posted) and in it’s place, something like: “[username] violated the rules (or terms or decorum, etc.) of this site. The message has been deleted.”
    If someone continues such violations, then ban them.
    I also like the idea of unbanning when/if said person writes an apology.
    As for editing someone’s blog for any purpose other than spelling, a broken link, or they ask you to fix some fax pas; well the free-market should take care of that. I would hope anyone actively visiting that site rethink that idea.

    Corwin (ea9428)

  119. I like the idea of simply deleting everyhing they wrote (except the fact that they posted) and in it’s place, something like: “[username] violated the rules (or terms or decorum, etc.) of this site. The message has been deleted.”
    Comment by Corwin — 12/21/2009 @ 9:08 am

    I like that idea too.

    Stashiu3 (44da70)

  120. I could tell that comment wasn’t for reals Mr. Jacobs.

    happyfeet (2c63dd)

  121. oh. Mr. Johnson I mean. whichever, I could tell.

    It’s almost merry christmas here in Los Angeles.

    happyfeet (2c63dd)

  122. I see patterico has gone full Charles Johnson. Your crusade has grown tiresome. Finish the job and admit your exit from the conservative movement so we can ignore you just like your pal at LittleGreenNutballs.

    Brian G. (a7808f)

  123. I’m going out to dinner with a delightful PW commenter person I don’t think you ones would know from the recent contretemps cause of she’s not commented about that and also my sister and that guy that came with my sister. Glendale. Where should we eat? I will be wearing khakis and something clean.

    happyfeet (2c63dd)

  124. If the conservative movement were a Hebrew National Kosher Hot Dog:

    You can’t eat me, especially without mustard. You’re not a bodybuilder from Colorad who knows grappling arts.

    nk (df76d4)

  125. NG is on the case about the restaurant cause of it’s a slow day.

    happyfeet (2c63dd)

  126. Brazilian BBQ! here… I has never had

    happyfeet (2c63dd)

  127. Christoph has been re-banned, and comments by banned commenters are to be deleted per Patterico’s instructions.

    Stashiu3 (44da70)

  128. oh. here’s the link

    happyfeet (2c63dd)

  129. A poem that’s not a haiku.

    Why oh why can’t I
    Be a Teeanage Mutant Ninja Turtle
    And a consrvative blogger too?

    nk (df76d4)

  130. Sorry guys, I was out running an errand and that’s why the thread is so choppy now. I was getting caught up when I saw Corwin’s comment and replied. I didn’t realize it was about Christoph until after I had a chance to read the older comments. Those of you who were here saw that he wasn’t trying to bypass the ban, he got a new IP when he got back in-country and expected to be re-banned.

    Again, my apologies insofar as occasionally having a life (okay, not really… obligations). 😉

    Stashiu3 (44da70)

  131. I’m sorry to hear about the re-banning as well as the deletion of related comments pre-re-banning. (one a side note, I wonder if I should try to trademark that new word in hopes of garnering future fees for use???)

    Corwin (ea9428)

  132. Who is/is not a troll is subjective.

    Not the ones Ace does it to. There’s no subjectivity argument to be bandied around.

    While they post as sockpuppets, that’s not what I am referring to. They change the comments of people they find annoying. They’ve been doing it for years and it is not uncommon.

    They do it to people who are annoying for the purpose of being annoying and who do not comment at AoSHQ for any other purpose. And to people like Jayfree Gouldstine in what are very clear parodies that everyone understands are parodies and are not to be taken as the actual person’s words.

    By Jayfree Gouldstine’s own standards, no comment of Patterico’s, no matter how insulting or nasty, can possibly fit any standard justifying editing his comments to make him look bad. Especially if he is doing so in an attempt to link Patterico’s full, real name, and his job title, and the word “anti-semitic” in Google searches. That’s serious character assassination by fraud. It’s not what Ace does. Patterico, whatever his faults with his temper, doesn’t go to comment with the intent of just filling up space with drama. He may get caught up in the drama (and does), but he isn’t a troll like Palin Steele or any of the other members of Ace’s stable of punching bags.

    I see patterico has gone full Charles Johnson. Your crusade has grown tiresome. Finish the job and admit your exit from the conservative movement so we can ignore you just like your pal at LittleGreenNutballs.

    Now that’s just ridiculous. Other than getting into feuds with other conservative personalities in the blogosphere, Patterico has not suddenly started posting liberal agitprop about creationists or gay marriage or how “conservatives” are going to turn the GOP into a permanent minority party or any of the other things Chuckles Johnson has done. If being in the “conservative movement” on the internet means something other than believing in conservative principles, if it means you have to be all lovey-dovey with every other self-proclaimed conservative on the internet, then we’re not operating in the paradigm of the United States, we’re in the good ole USSR.

    chaos (9c54c6)

  133. I’m sorry to hear about the re-banning as well as the deletion of related comments pre-re-banning.
    Comment by Corwin — 12/21/2009 @ 10:34 am

    Technically, he wasn’t re-banned as he was never un-banned. I have to apply Patterico’s policy consistently though. I apologize for the inconvenience.

    Stashiu3 (44da70)

  134. I’m glad to see that Patterico knows what’s really important at this moment – his infantile pissing matchs with other bloggers. Let’s keep this post and its successors at the top of the page right through Christmas. It’s not like anything else is going on.

    Subotai (2fac73)

  135. happyfeet @ #126, we held our daughter’s UCLA grad dinner at one of her favorite restaurants, which was new to me and happily, I discovered exactly why it’s her fave. It’s an Armenian restaurant named Raffi’s Place.. It has a beautiful patio with fountains and heaters, and the portions are enormous. The menu is focused primarily on kebabs and salads. There is so much food that you can easily share selections. Highly recommend it.

    Dana (f64b7d)

  136. ok – they’re both on the menu and the car gets to vote – looks like they’re in walking distance from each other even… that patio sounds fun… the only thing is how Armenian and Glendale have become so synonymous but I’ll put a when in Rome spin on it.

    happyfeet (2c63dd)

  137. and belated congratulations!

    happyfeet (2c63dd)

  138. Christoph was never unbanned. He tried to get around the ban by posting from a new IP. His comments were deleted as soon as I learned of them.

    Patterico (9c416d)

  139. How about you just stop obsessing over the guy?

    Find a hobby, that’s my advice.

    mojo (8096f2)

  140. “I am currently working with several national retailers on site locations, Pat is working for the citizens of LA in a law and order public position

    altering our words – completely rewriting our posts is HUGELY dangerous and possibly damaging

    Read what you just wrote. Your continued participation is thus hugely dangerous and of questionable judgment. You make a choice to allow your publicly-published words to be altered by PW’s idiots and liars by leaving those words in their control.

    bobby b (4baf73)

  141. Since anyone with a blog can claim any ‘post’ as coming from anyone writing anything – it would seem to me, that the only thing that is hugely dangerous and of questionable judgement is life itself.
    For someone to post at a site is no more making a choice to allow someone else to alter the post than having someone purport that you wrote anything in the first place.
    (I admit, the above might be hard to follow)
    If blogs are not honest in leaving posts unblemished – that blog is not of any value (except for satirical purposes).

    Corwin (ea9428)

  142. Don’t post comments at Goldstein’s site (or even read it, for that matter), and don’t let him post here.

    Problem solved.

    VG

    Voiceguy (21bf12)

  143. And thank you. I’m flattered that you thought enough of my earlier response to quote it above.

    Good luck!

    Bill Roper (1b6c41)

  144. Voiceguy:

    That’s the plan for me.

    Solves MY problem.

    The next commenter who disagrees with him still has a problem.

    Patterico (9c416d)

  145. Wow, Goldstein has sunk down into Andrew Sullivan territory in terms of credibility.

    b (df882e)

  146. I ain’t saying nothing. But notice I am not saying in here.

    And that’s all I have to not say.

    Huey (b957d9)

  147. “If being in the “conservative movement” on the internet means something other than believing in conservative principles, if it means you have to be all lovey-dovey with every other self-proclaimed conservative on the internet, then we’re not operating in the paradigm of the United States, we’re in the good ole USSR.”

    You’re free to disagree with other conservatives, chaos. It’s just that if you do, your comments might get altered, and your commenters physically threatened, and your job threatened, and your private e-mails shared, and your positions routinely distorted. See how free you are to criticize conservatives?

    Me, I just speak my mind. I even defended McCain just the other day. Yet I am equated to Charles Johnson, who would never defend him.

    It’s Alinsky-style tactics. They know how to use them because they have familiarized themselves with the tactics. And they have no scruples about using those tactics themselves.

    If you disagree, they’ll use them on you too. Think my comments and Eric Johnson’s and Leo Tolstoy’s are the only ones subject to alteration?

    Really?

    Patterico (9c416d)

  148. Read what you just wrote. Your continued participation is thus hugely dangerous and of questionable judgment. You make a choice to allow your publicly-published words to be altered by PW’s idiots and liars by leaving those words in their control.

    Has he “continued” his “participation” at Protein Wisdom since? Your comment seems rather “drive-by scold”-ish without any foundation for it. He showed bad judgment by posting comments on a site that alters comments when he had no idea they did that? What now?

    chaos (9c54c6)

  149. You’re free to disagree with other conservatives, chaos. It’s just that if you do, your comments might get altered, and your commenters physically threatened, and your job threatened, and your private e-mails shared, and your positions routinely distorted. See how free you are to criticize conservatives?

    Me, I just speak my mind. I even defended McCain just the other day. Yet I am equated to Charles Johnson, who would never defend him.

    It’s Alinsky-style tactics. They know how to use them because they have familiarized themselves with the tactics. And they have no scruples about using those tactics themselves.

    If you disagree, they’ll use them on you too. Think my comments and Eric Johnson’s and Leo Tolstoy’s are the only ones subject to alteration?

    Really?

    There’s something weird about this comment. Actually just the last three sentences.

    chaos (9c54c6)

  150. Maybe I was unclear. I’m just saying that more comments have been altered there than simply mine and Eric Johnson’s and Leo Tolstoy’s.

    Patterico (9c416d)

  151. It’s nice of dicentra to weigh in with another deflection post today.

    LOOK OVER THERE……BUNNIES!!!!!

    Some of Patterico’s commenters have expressed violent thoughts on threads there, my boss and idol, is not alone on the internet in threatening people with explicit violent harm, even though he may have been ironic or something.

    The issue isn’t PP commenters, dicentra, but if you want to raise it you should answer the following:

    How many PW commenters have made similar comment to those you pulled out of context from threads at PP?

    BTW, thanks for correcting Jeff the other day for his incorrect views of intentionalism. That structure/context argument really saved his bacon. Good asspull.

    daleyrocks (718861)

  152. Don’t watch too closely while I pull these wabbits out of my hat. The whole facade could come crumbling down.

    ZOMG

    PURITY PURGES NOW!!!!!!

    COMITY FOR TEH CAUSE

    daleyrocks (718861)

  153. Nobody who reads this blog has ever heard of Jeff Goldstein–certainly nobody with a life. And yet every day he generates thousands of words here, all of them wasted. Enough.

    Kevin Stafford (abdb87)

  154. Apologies – The post referred to at the beginning of #154 attributed to dicentra appears to have been posted by Jeff and or Ishmael. I regret the attribution error.

    daleyrocks (718861)

  155. PW tw: mass delusion

    daleyrocks (718861)

  156. Comment by dicentra on 12/20 @ 11:22 pm #

    EPWJ was being a moron. He was only pretending to ask questions in good faith, but given his record of not having commented in good faith before, Jeff altered three of his comments (and copped to it right then and there) out of frustration with bad-faith actor

    All I asked was what EXACTLY did Jeff mean when he was going to snap peoples ankles and other physical threats and then wanted them to say things to his face and then wanted to seek revenge against the attacks on his family from people commentating here

    First I had heard of people attacking his family – especially since Debra

    So if they dont want to clarify their answer and intent about something that they themselves have commented on their own blog… Thats BAD FAITH?

    EricPWJohnson (0343e6)

  157. Eric

    All I asked was what EXACTLY did Jeff mean when he was going to snap peoples ankles and other physical threats and then wanted them to say things to his face and then wanted to seek revenge against the attacks on his family from people commentating here

    Well, here’s the problem:

    and then wanted them to say things to his face and

    try this: All I asked was what EXACTLY did Jeff mean when he was going to snap peoples ankles and other physical threats and then wanted them to say if they said those things to his face.

    So, the violence occurs if, and only if, the person were to say the same things they say on the internet to Jeff in person.

    If you don’t get the distinction, well, use that information as best you can as you go through life.

    If you need a video example: here’s Jim Rome playing the role of internet commenter and Jim Everett playing the role of Jeff Goldstein.

    Youtube clip.

    if you still don’t get Jeff’s points about violence, then seek professional help.-

    .

    BumperStickerist (4ccc78)

  158. — repost with one editing clarification, the strikethrough didn’t work –

    Eric

    All I asked was what EXACTLY did Jeff mean when he was going to snap peoples ankles and other physical threats and then wanted them to say things to his face and then wanted to seek revenge against the attacks on his family from people commentating here

    Well, here’s the problem:

    and then wanted them to say things to his face and

    try this:

    All I asked was what EXACTLY did Jeff mean when he was going to snap peoples ankles and other physical threats if they said those things to his face.

    So, the violence occurs if, and only if, the person were to say the same things they say on the internet to Jeff in person.

    If you don’t get the distinction, well, use that information as best you can as you go through life.

    If you need a video example: here’s Jim Rome playing the role of internet commenter and Jim Everett playing the role of Jeff Goldstein.

    Youtube clip.

    if you still don’t get Jeff’s points about violence, then seek professional help.-

    .

    BumperStickerist (4ccc78)

  159. If you still follow Goldstein and his psychotic threats of violence, his unmasking of “trolls” and other bloggers (Theristes), his exposure of personal information of those he does not like on the internet, his allowing Serr8d, for example, to send an email to a dissenter’s place of business to jeopardize that person’s employment….

    if you still follow Goldstein after acknowledging that he intends to beat up people for the words they wrote on the internet, after watching him defend “authorial” intent by telling us Patterico’s statement means what Godlstein says it does and not what the author says it does….

    if you still follow Goldstein after years of Doc Weasel disputes or the time he encouraged his supporters to post disparaging comments on a wrestling forum because the wrestlers and Goldstein disagreed about something arcane and stupid, or the time he insulted Dan’s brother publicly for the crime of helping Jeff for free, or the time he chased Karl away and started hating on Patrick for taking Karl in, or the fact that Jeff would be friends with a sick fuck like Pablo…

    then YOU should seek some sort of aid to help you with your bizarre attachment to a goon, bumper.

    Oh, and
    PS Stacy McCain once wrote an article calling slowing white teenage births a form of “white racial suicide.” As bad as Goldstein is, McCain is a weasel of even lower character. Link available upon request

    timb (449046)

  160. okay, it appears that jeff admits to altering some, labelling one in what i consider an inadequate way as altered. okay not 100% honest, but not the end of the world.

    also it appears that he didn’t alter what you wrote patterico, if i am following all of this. and if he is right, then i believe a correction is in order. blog ettiquette and all.

    A.W. (e7d72e)

  161. I don’t go there as a matter of habit, the smell of jasmine is hard to endure off a doeskin G-string and it looks I’ve been banned in any case, so I think I will just have a submarine sandwich for lunch while trying desperately to forget Darleen’s picture at Little Miss Atilla’s.

    nk (df76d4)

  162. A.W.,

    You are wrong. He has altered literally dozens of my comments.

    Comments of people who disagree with him are a toy for him to play with.

    Patterico (1aad26)

  163. Well, you will note, i used a few weasel words like “appear” etc. Because i was in part fishing for your side of it.

    Anyway, so i will chalk that up as “disputed.” the fact he changed other comments is undisputed, and so whether he did that to you is small potatoes by comparison.

    A.W. (e7d72e)

  164. Jim Rome needed bigger stage hands if he was going to run his mouth that way.

    Note to self:
    Hire some big fast guys

    SteveG (909b57)

  165. Actually, I still think a lot of this is the format.

    On a scale of 1-10 with ten being high, a statement spoken face to face can register about a “3” and the same statement by email or posted can register as an “8” on the Scoville Chili Pepper Heat Index

    SteveG (909b57)

  166. So, the violence occurs if, and only if, the person were to say the same things they say on the internet to Jeff in person.

    Not true at all. His statement regarding me included no such qualifier, stating that so much as meeting me would induce violent action.

    Scott Jacobs (d027b8)

  167. timb,

    @162: Links, please.

    Fritz (89bfa6)

  168. There is no term found on google for:

    “white racial suicide” site:rsmccain.blogspot.com

    Without the quotes–I did not see anything in the first few pages that seem anywhere close.

    And the following returns only three hits that refer to Sen. McCain:

    “white racial suicide” +mccain -john

    Someplace else? Not the quoted terms? Google Amnesia?

    BfC (5209ec)

  169. Potentially violent race-card playing blogger Jeff Goldstein attempts to rationalize his behavior in today’s Clerical Work post at Protein Wisdom. Only his most sycophantic supporters will fail to see through the transparent facade he erects to defend his miserable conduct.

    Squid starts the fun off – “I’ll admit that turning Pat’s lazy rhetorical ploy against him was a cheap trick on Jeff’s part”

    Exactly squid, especially since Jeff admitted on LMA that the allegations of anti-semitism were completely baseless. To claim that Jrff was using a parallel argument structure to that used by Patterico in his pieces on RSM fails from the start. Jeff just vindictively made the whole thing up to smear Patterico.

    How does Jeff rationalize it – “I had no intention of ever doing such a thing until Frey wrote a dedicated post about how “Jeff Goldstein Plays the Race Card.” He based that post on the mini-lesson I tried to teach him 7 months ago……I thought the point had been made and the dispute settled.”

    So Jeff thought the dispute was settled, which was why it was raised again in the middle of the night at LMA and he was forced to asmit he had no evidence for the charge of antisemitism, yet he proceeded with his post anyway, which is just the way he rolls. There is no parallel structure to Patterico’s discussion of RSM for discerning readers. The objective is purely a smear and at this point Jeff had already written five posts on the RSM matter slagging Patterico, hardly making him an innocent and disinterested observer.

    As Jeff pointed out in the 12/14 post Intentions, An Update:
    “But the careful and rigorous reader will notice that I haven’t denied Frey’s intent: he may, in fact, have never intended to call McCain a racist. Still, what I’ve shown is the necessity of his having done so, regardless of whether he meant to or not.”

    Incorrect, all Jeff has pointed out is that in order to accept Jeff’s position, one has to accept his argument of the necessity in Jeff’s opinion of having called RSM a racist by calling a statement racist. Jeff’s position enabled his supporters to claim victory but it is not the only position. WHAT? Just because Jeff says it is a necessity does not make it so, as Cassandra has persuasively argued. That Greenwaldian form of argument may intimidate some, but it is not necessarily persuasive. It is priveleging the authors intent, especially when the author has repeatedly stated his intent to be specifically otherwise.

    Nevertheless, Jeff ploughs on – “Frey never believed I was playing the race card; he was out to try to embarrass me. So I figured, if he wanted to pretend I was playing the race card, I’d pretend along with him.”

    See Jeff can read minds or is happy to make false allegations about others, but when they are turned back on him – WHOA!!!! It’s irony or sarcasm when Jeff does it, or never serious when he threatens bodily harm to people, but reverse the roles and LOOK OUT BELOW. Absolutely pitiful!!!

    Plus,”it turns out Frey was making copies of the comments as they appeared, which enabled him to repost them, against my wishes.”

    Oh, the humanity!! Copying comments. What will the fiend do next?

    Goldstein is so disinterested in this whole kerfuffle that he has written 17 posts on it so far, one more than Patterico since Goldstein jumped into the fray. It’s tough to say who is obsessing more, but I can tell which site’s commenters are more agitated and sound more like fringe libtards every day.

    daleyrocks (718861)

  170. Goldstein is so disinterested in this whole kerfuffle that he has written 17 posts on it so far,

    Well … you know … if you have nothing else to do all day ….

    nk (df76d4)

  171. Well … you know … if you have nothing else to do all day …

    I don’t know where he finds the time, actually…

    Those soap operas aren’t just gonna watch themselves you know…

    Scott Jacobs (d027b8)

  172. nk – I get a kick out of Goldstein’s sycophant’s calling Patterico obsessed when Jeff has written that many posts yet professes in the comment threads not to care about it.

    Who’s zooming who?

    The person I worry about most is Joe. He’s either going to do permanent damage to his tongue if this continues or he’s running up a huge battery bill servicing Jeff.

    Fetch, Joe, Fetch!

    daleyrocks (718861)

  173. No matter, my gunto will still remain a decoration in my daughter’s playroom.

    nk (df76d4)

  174. When Deb Frisch slipped through the cracks of the system, Jeff might have gotten the idea that he could do the same thing with his tough guy act. If he does go after Scott, I will be there to teach him different.

    nk (df76d4)

  175. nk – Cut ‘n Paste Joe makes drooling submorons look like Phds, but at least he’s found a home and a function. I just goes to show you if you can’t make it at McDonalds you can always make it as a blog pet if people will have you.

    daleyrocks (718861)

  176. Ishmael thinks he found something damning in Patterico’s treatment of deranged stalker Levi. Maybe Ishmael would like to point Levi at Jeff and he could become Deb’s successor if he thought Levi was treated unfairly. What an idiot.

    daleyrocks (718861)

  177. If he does go after Scott, I will be there to teach him different.

    You know better than that, nk.

    I will not be deprived my fun! :)

    Scott Jacobs (d027b8)

  178. You’ll have more fun watching him being denied bail and going to trial three months later for felony stalking, Scott, I promise.

    nk (df76d4)

  179. CIVILITY NOW!!!!!!

    None of this talk of hypothetical, ironic, sarcastic or intentional bodily interactions, if in fact they should ever speculatively occur, and I’m not saying that they everwould or should. IYKWIMAITTYD.

    Where’s my pie?

    daleyrocks (718861)

  180. Isn’t Jeff in the middle of a major clean up project of deleting comments from a troll he let run wild over a couple of years named Thor. The guy used proxy servers and multiple screen names.

    He also appears to be doing it to a bunch of the links that Patterico left over at Protein Wisdom Funny thing that. I thought Jeff was just bragging about having one of the most open blogs on the net.

    Now we hear about altering comments, deleting comments, removing links, threats of violence, bogus manufactured charges of anti-semitism. I can’t wait to see what’s next.

    daleyrocks (718861)

  181. timb

    this is actually a common discussion…

    ‘Journalist Eric Walberg blames the downfall of Europe on neoliberalism while author Michael Hoffman blames moral degeneracy. “The non-reproducing (i.e. self-exterminating) Whites of Europe and America live for luxury.”’

    There has been talk for years of blond hair and blue eyes disappearing by 2050 due intentionally low rates of reproduction by whites and high(er) rates by other races.

    Timb

    your version sounds like little more than a punched up version of the above

    SteveG (11baba)

  182. Goldstein On Little Miss Attila:

    December 10th, 2009 at 8:34 am

    “And for the record, Frey made anti-semitic statements. I don’t know if he’s anti-semitic or not. Perhaps I’ll do several posts on the subject and just, you know, throw the idea out there and see what people think.

    In a search for truth!

    Oh. Wait –”

    Except he admits there were no anti-semitic statements, it was something he ginned up in a heated conversation that he deleted or lost in a server translation or something else, or possibly a gag. Jeff never really gets his story straight.

    Exact parallel to the RSM situation I’m thinking! Mini-lesson. Hah!

    daleyrocks (718861)

  183. That quote I sent came from a bad source and I should not have used it…. I’ll find another one and pay more attention to the website rather than just “google”.

    SteveG (11baba)

  184. Everybody wave to Joe.

    Hi Joe!

    Merry Christmas Joe!

    daleyrocks (718861)

  185. Now we hear about altering comments, deleting comments, removing links, threats of violence, bogus manufactured charges of anti-semitism. I can’t wait to see what’s next.

    Fifteen minutes googling (googleing?) will show many of these charges going back as far as 2005. From liberal, conservative, and middle of the road political bloggers. With context and links if you’re so inclined to consider said charges.

    He’s a persecuted one, all right.

    PrimeTime (c2c6c2)

  186. I got an education on that one.
    Somethings that seemed possible, all mixed up in a hash.
    I don’t feel too bad….
    2050 is when the US Census projected “white” population growth would flatten or decline.

    The blonde hair dying out in the forseeable future thing is a hoax… but one that has fooled a number of major news outlets http://scienceblogs.com/gnxp/2006/03/delicious_ideas.php

    I guess it could be done theoretically if “blonde” was selected out of the breeding pool, which prompted comedians to advocate a selective blonde breeding program just to be sure… in the interest of preservation of course

    Yes some real kooks hang on the fringe of this hoax…. as would be expected.

    so i learned more about, and put to rest something I’d once heard and never looked at closely.

    whew

    I was about to start freezing my sperm… and since I’m blonde, you can only imagine how that plan would have gone…. the do it yourself home kit of: dry ice… bucket…. toilet seat lid…1,2,3 sit

    thanks timb

    SteveG (11baba)

  187. “Anyway, so i will chalk that up as “disputed.” the fact he changed other comments is undisputed, and so whether he did that to you is small potatoes by comparison.”

    There is no “whether” and no dispute. He has altered literally dozens of my comments. Dozens.

    Your words on his site are just a playtoy. He will change them to suit his whim. If you dare to disagree.

    Patterico (1aad26)

  188. Of course, I also think when your sentences routinely exceed 75-100 words, your meaning should be clear. One ought not be referred to years of previous verbosity in order to understand the meaning. Or context if you like that better.

    But hey, I’m no wanna-be failed previous linguist.

    PrimeTime (c2c6c2)

  189. My point, A.W., is that you can’t believe a thing these people tell you. They are liars who change your very words. Why are you believing the word of people so dishonest they would do that?

    Patterico (1aad26)

  190. Link to McCains article

    http://www.amren.com/ar/2002/03/index.html

    SteveG (11baba)

  191. SteveG, I found that disturbing to say the least.

    However, I did not see McCain’s name attached to it.Am I missing something?

    PrimeTime (c2c6c2)

  192. “My point, A.W., is that you can’t believe a thing these people tell you.”

    Patterico – They’ve already declared victory, time and again. Why can’t we believe them? They have studied how language works. They apply it inconsistently depending on who is on the other side of the argument. They privelege authorial intent and restate arguments or positions into statements or positions which were never made or taken and insist those were the only things the author could have meant or the only thought process which works.

    Holy manichean logic, batman! People should just take their footballs and go home instead of arguing over there. The supporting cast of harpies supports Jeff no matter how many times he contradicts himself in claiming he has addressed points and remained consistent. Then the greek chorus who doesn’t look closely enough to see or understand what he does chimes in and the cacaphony becomes deafening. Add to that the standard refrain of you don’t understand how language works followed by escalating personal insults if you persist in arguing and the pattern is well established.

    The deleting of comments is not new.

    daleyrocks (718861)

  193. “I was there. I saw it. I got it. But then Jeff wondered if it might not be misunderstood by lesser minds.”

    dicentra over at PW coming out with her latest explanation du jour for Jeff’s conduct. It’s nice that she can read his mind since Jeff still can’t get his story straight on what happened. dicentra has amazing powers of rationalization.

    daleyrocks (718861)

  194. I wonder if dicentra can alter comments over at PW in addition to Jeff. Her revisions of history certainly suggest she has that ability or perhaps she prefers to forget inconvenient things people with lesser minds keep bringing up. Rationalization is a bitch. Sometimes you forget what lies you have told on what threads.

    daleyrocks (718861)

  195. or perhaps she prefers to forget inconvenient things people with lesser minds keep bringing up. Rationalization is a bitch

    Jeff and his commenters are rather the blogosphere equivalent of Kate Gosselin and ‘reality’ tv. It’s rather amazing how much evidence they forget is out there for all to see.

    PrimeTime (c2c6c2)

  196. “However, I did not see McCain’s name attached to it.Am I missing something?”

    The pseudonym, Burke C. Dabney, is identical to a pseudonym he admitted (in an interview with Alan Colmes) using to post comments on Free Republic. McCain lived in D.C. at the time, as did the author.

    McCain has insinuated that he did not write the article, saying he has never used the term “racial suicide” in his life. And that he has 6 children, whereas the author of the article is said to have 4.

    I don’t know how many children he had when the article was published.

    Either it’s his article, or it was written by someone living in the same city, using a pseudonym he has used.

    Patterico (4ef72a)

  197. To me, it doesn’t read like his style at all.

    Patterico (4ef72a)

  198. To me, we should take his commnets apart just as we would someone posting at DailyKos or SadlyNo. To do anything else is to lose credibility.

    I may agree with some of the endpoints McCain and/or Goldstein come up with, but I will never be proud to have them on my side.

    PrimeTime (c2c6c2)

  199. Because they suck. The other McCain has seriously disturbing views.

    I believe it’s important to call everyone out on some things.

    McCain may hold some views that I hold also, but I still am not thinking we are on the same side.

    McCain sucks and Goldstein sucks.

    PrimeTime (c2c6c2)

  200. There is no “whether” and no dispute. He has altered literally dozens of my comments. Dozens.

    Your words on his site are just a playtoy. He will change them to suit his whim. If you dare to disagree.

    Comment by Patterico — 12/22/2009 @ 9:55 pm

    Prove it.

    BTW, the strawberries are in the refrigerator.

    darleen (fe8e8e)

  201. Prove it.

    He doesn’t need to. Several people on that site have admitted to changing the words of people who comment.

    It is your burden to prove that you will not do that, not our burden to prove that you may. You have shown that you are willing to, so we need prove nothing.

    Scott Jacobs (d027b8)

  202. scott

    I know facts are just not your thing, but “people” who admit “changing words” specifically laid out the rare circumstances underwhich (as thread authors) they would do it. IE Spam/threadjacking.

    Pat-SPAMMER-Frey has claimed HIS comments (dozens! DOZENS, I SAY!) have been altered. There’s a nice list of ’em he can go through at leisure and prove it. His assertion, his responsibiity.

    It is interesting, when Coburn is accused of wishing death on Byrd, when Chuck Norris is accused of wanting women who have abortions to be stoned, that LANGUAGE is just not important to faux-conservatives/Wolcottian pseudo-males like Frey and ilk as is blog etiquette as defined by Frey (by not honestly, since he has engaged in the same practice he now is obsessing over).

    darleen (fe8e8e)

  203. Fritz 171

    Here. Written under his admitted pseudonym Burke C. Dabney

    Ends with this wonderful paragraph:

    One might well wonder about indiscriminate anti-natalist propaganda when some groups in the country are already below replacement-level fertility. The “success” of such propaganda only accelerates the decline of the white population. If crusaders against teenage motherhood were serious, they would concentrate on the black and Hispanic girls who account for more than half of teenage births. Targeting whites as part of a general campaign is yet another form of racial suicide.

    [bolding is mine, naturally]

    RSM’s attitudes are pre-1970’s and wrong. He is a loathsome character.

    timb (449046)

  204. “…I know facts are just not your thing…”

    Oh, come on. This has gotten ridiculous.

    Scott deserves enough respect that you should not insult him. Words meaning what they do, and all. And whether you want to accept it or not, JG (who I have sent money to in the past, dammit, so I am not some partisan) went too far in his dealings with Scott. Just let it go.

    Let people hang out where they want, and quit with the tit-for-tat business.

    Eric Blair (ddbceb)

  205. Does Goldstein really deny that dozens of my comments have been altered over there?

    Really??

    Whatever. They have been. But I have lost interest.

    Patterico (1aad26)

  206. Sorry to be late, I see Patterico already talked about this (although, when I read it, I thought it sounded just like him)…

    And, SteveG, as long as peroxide exists, there will always be some blonds!

    Daley, your disdain for Goldstein and Joe is your most appealing character trait. Despite our disagreements, I think you have others, but nothing makes me as happy as when you turn your analytical skills on the vileness that is darleen and her gaggle of kooks

    timb (449046)

  207. Pat

    did you define what you meant by “altered”?

    Your WORDS (content) was not altered. But that your SPAMMING (same statement posted obsessively to long dead threads) ended up google-bombing yourself …

    well, I can see why that might be chapping your hide again. How DARE a blog/thread author not allow SPAMMING.

    heh

    darleen (fe8e8e)

  208. darleen

    oh, so its not a comment, its spam. i suppose it depends on what the definition of the word “is” is. sigh.

    And in case i am being too subtle, that is Bill Clinton BULLSHIT.

    Its your site and you can do what you want. You are entitled to that, but not to your own version of the facts.

    A.W. (e7d72e)

  209. I think we now have an admission that several of my comments were altered without notice.

    Justification: it’s only links that were altered without notice. (As this post documents, my words have also been altered without notice. Now numerous links have been changed .)

    Also, my comments (intended as a defense and not a Google bomb) have been defined as “spam” and thus subject to alteration.

    Comments by “trolls” are also subject to alteration. And “troll” can be defined as “someone who disagrees in a way we don’t like.” See Eric Johnson as one example.

    So if you disagree, you can be defined as a “troll” or “spammer” and have your words and/or links changed, with no notice to the reader.

    As I said: if you disagree, your words become playthings, changeable at whim, without any notice to readers that you originally said something different.

    Does anyone else see why I have come to see this as a pointless exercise?

    Patterico (1aad26)

  210. Certainly the exercise has a point, sadly. The point is that these people have descended into a whacky circle jerk of beclowndom.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  211. darleen,

    If I’m understanding you correctly, links were altered without any mention of the alteration. Are you contending that links are not part of a comment and can be altered freely as long as the words themselves are not changed? If someone were to change your earlier link to a different site, would that be okay? No need to explain that it wasn’t your original link or why someone decided to change it? I don’t believe your reasoning is as sound as you think it is. Changing any part of someone’s comment in bad faith or as retaliation speaks directly to the blog owner’s lack of credibility. If I were to engage in that type of behavior, it would reflect directly on Patterico. He would need to put a stop to it or people would reasonably assume he endorsed it. Justifying Pablo changing a comment means Jeff G. endorses it and reflects directly on him as the blog owner. These continued alterations just confirm that lack of credibility, putting every comment there under suspicion of having been tampered with. Don’t like it? Don’t do it.

    I remember someone complaining about a Google-bomb targeting their son started by a crazed, failed academic now living in someplace called you-gene. Of course starting a Google-bomb yourself, making a knowingly false accusation of antisemitism targeting someone you are angry at is different because… wait, give me a second… that’s right, it is just being kind enough to rephrase what they said. Jeff G. is turning out to be quite the kind fellow.

    Stashiu3 (44da70)

  212. All that said, I see that someone wrote Qor to complain about Goldstein’s behavior, and I want to make it clear that I disapprove of the decision of the person who wrote Qor. You can quote me on that. I don’t approve of people trying to make him suffer because of this dispute, and the actions I have taken have been intended as purely defensive. Do not write Qor unless it is to tell them that I do not want Mr. Goldstein fired from the site.

    Patterico (1aad26)

  213. I don’t even read serr8d or joe comments from the ban filter anymore. They get deleted as soon as I see them since they are banned. Complaints that their views are being suppressed should remember that they are banned. If either of them want to comment here, they should take it up with Patterico privately. Wait, no such thing with them…

    Just thought I’d share that. 😉

    Stashiu3 (44da70)

  214. Here is an interesting thought. Have I ever seen Patterico rethink a situation and state openly that he had been wrong?

    Yes, several times. That makes me trust his judgement, even when I disagree with him. I generally don’t see the man insult others, nor result to frequent “tough guy” talk.

    People can choose to post where they wish. But just as words matter, so do actions.

    Eric Blair (ddbceb)

  215. #216 says it all. I would like to think that JG and his friends would feel the same way, if the situation were reversed.

    Eric Blair (ddbceb)

  216. Patterico

    You are right about the loose definition of “trolls.” Yesterday, i mildly criticized Jeff and i get the label “concern troll.”

    A.W. (e7d72e)

  217. 211

    I’ve no real interest in the dispute beyond entertainment, but after reading the relevant article and comment threads on both sites something strikes me. You need to get a life outside sycophancy, darleen. Same applies to dicentra and a few other PW regulars. The PW threads are devolving into something disturbingly herdlike, paranoic, and irresponsible.

    The latest ploy by Jeff to try to get someone to independently run with the idea that his own actions did not backfire on him at QoR will no doubt be successful and is a case in point. Jeff is responsible for what he writes and his actions. He can demand that the audience consider linguistic subtleties in his prose all he wants but PW is not a venue that supports that and he does not intend that it be such a venue. His words on PW are interpreted at face value. If he chooses not to write succinctly and clearly, it does him no good to rail against the consequences of his ‘intent’ being misinterpreted by the reader.

    lurker (8cabba)

  218. I just realized what has been tugging at the back of my mind as I’ve been reading all this. It’s the growing resemblance in style and culture in the PW threads resembles Atrios if not the content and politics.

    Having said my piece, adios.

    lurker (8cabba)

  219. For the record, it wasn’t just links. My words were also changed in more than one instance.

    [UPDATE: To be crystal clear, my words were altered on several comments on the main Protein Wisdom site. I am not just referring to Pablo’s alterations at the Pub, but also to several of my comments left on proteinwisdom.com. No notice was given to readers of these alterations.]

    Patterico (1aad26)

  220. I just deleted a comment from nk because it appeared to have no purpose other than to revive a fight. I’m not interested in that. I point out that my words were altered, not to revive or continue a fight, but simply because it’s true, and I want that fact to be part of the record here.

    I won’t delete comments that relate to the subject matter of the post, subject to my usual guidelines, but I ask commenters not to make comments that have no purpose but to provoke. I’m tired of this, and uninterested, and hope not to have to talk about it again.

    Patterico (1aad26)

  221. I already knew that Patterico. It won’t happen again.

    nk (df76d4)

  222. After 225 comments, I hope somebody else is tired of it. The internet has more than its share of losers who can still punch keys on keyboards.

    Avoid them.

    If necessary, post a disclaimer.

    Mike K (2cf494)

  223. I want it to be on the record as well – my comments were completely rewritten – who knows what they are still doing to them over there

    And they confessed to doing it and they confessed that they did indeed do it and I deserved it by daring to disagree with them in BAD FAITH or to ask questions of their intentions when issuing physical threats?

    EricPWJohnson (35644b)

  224. Darleen

    Why touch anyone’s comments other than to delete them? Why? This is the problematic way you and Jeff were arguing – like with the Palin – Letterman thing. The issue is that you changed and in my case completely rewritten comments that your site invites for MONEY.

    Pure and simple – you guys blog for money, invite people into conversations, use the traffic involved to solicit donations and to build notoriety for future writing and consulting work.

    And then play the victim? Loudly, naturally and when you are caught red handed in front of everyone altering comments that you don’t want to respond to you blame the victim while playing the victim?

    Just hit the delete button.

    EricPWJohnson (35644b)

  225. Now batting cleanup, hindsight hero Duke Lowell.

    Merry Christmas Cut’n Paste Joe!

    daleyrocks (718861)

  226. Patterico – Re: Update # – There is no equivalency between what Goldstein penis remora Ishmael “dug up” on this site to prove that you regularly alter or delete comments. In the rare instances when comments are modified or deleted here, the current moderator typically notes the fact in the current thread. The reasons are typically breaches of blog etiquette such as Ehrenstein, banned commenters returning under new pseudonyms, deranged stalking such as Levi, and the like. Ishmael attempts with out success to make the parallel to PW where alterations and deletions are frequently done without notice, until the comment author or somebody else complains, as in this case.

    Yet another FAIL, as was the mini-lesson or whatever the current explanation is for the admittedly baseless anti-semitic smear Jeff decided to float out there as moral arbiter of the intartubes or grudge keeper, because FUCK YOU, or whatever. It’s become tough to keep track with all the gyrations over there, but the timeline is clear and 18 posts does not signal a lack of commitment on that blogger’s part nor of his drooling commenters.

    Merry XMas

    daleyrocks (718861)

  227. EPWJ… good lord, you’re a parody, right?

    and daley, didn’t anyone tell you that there’s no such thing as a “little bit preggers/hypocracy?”

    thought so

    Pat is pretending to decry what he never did before AND has also participated in.

    His “secret plan” to force JeffG off the internet, an obsession he conceived of last March is exposed.

    pity for you

    darleen (fe8e8e)

  228. hypocracy=hypocrisy

    darleen (fe8e8e)

  229. Merry Christmas Darleen.

    Didn’t anyone tell you 18 posts makes it all about Jeff, not Patrick and not really a mini-lesson. A mini-lesson is not something which has no basis in fact, which Jeff has readily admitted? Where exactly is the parallel to the RSM posts, Darleen? Need a mirror to see the hypocrisy?

    Ishmael’s posts are more dishonest than Jeff’s and that’s saying a lot. Deleted or edited comments on this blog are generally noted, while it takes prodding to do so at PW. You know that and I know that.

    Thanks for the drive by turd drop.

    daleyrocks (718861)

  230. poor daley

    your attempts to continue to defend Pat’s attempted google-bombing of JeffG’s own site (where he is still allowed to comment, even after he said he was trying to get banned) and Pat’s obvious hypocrisy makes any charge of PW readers as “syphocants” risible.

    you, little man, are the turd in the punchbowl

    but hey, cling to your delusions — they make you feel all warm and fuzzy. “Feelings” is the only thing Pat has been operating on for quite a while. Thinking, logic, reason, not so much.

    darleen (fe8e8e)

  231. Darleen,
    His “secret plan” to force JeffG off the internet, an obsession he conceived of last March is exposed.

    I’m sorry you have that misconception. Nobody (here at least) wants to force JeffG off the Internet. First Amendment and all that. Now as to whether he’s exercising his rights wisely, that’s another story. And Patterico has his First Amendment rights to state his opinion on that.

    Personally, I’d rather see both avoid any derogatory references to each other from now on, so they can focus on other topics. I think Patterico is willing. What about JeffG?

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (9eb641)

  232. Darleen – I’m a big fan of Ismael’s self-refuting posts. I like comedy. Click on the links he embeds some time and you’ll see what I mean. As for hypocrisy, I guess it’s in the eye of the beholder, because it is undeniable that Jeff changed both Johnson and Patterico’s posts without notice until both complained. If Goldstein ass-lampreys (I love that phrase Darleen)such as yourself cannot see that, your are indeed sorry little girls and should go back to your barbies. See, two can play at juvenile insults Darleen, no monopoly on the intartubes.

    Don’t forget the nine month record of snakiness toward Patterico on PW between March and December, which of course everyone should ignore to make this episode make it seem less about Jeff and his need to set the record straight as HIGH MORAL ARBITER OF TEH INTARTUBES, what with the completely false smears and 18 posts. Which excuse is he using today to explain his need, nay his obligation, his sacred duty to jump into the fray again Darleen? Cuz’ that’s the way he rolls, in sort of ironic way, of course.

    daleyrocks (718861)

  233. “your attempts to continue to defend Pat’s attempted google-bombing of JeffG’s own site (where he is still allowed to comment, even after he said he was trying to get banned) and Pat’s obvious hypocrisy makes any charge of PW readers as “syphocants” risible.

    you, little man, are the turd in the punchbowl

    but hey, cling to your delusions — they make you feel all warm and fuzzy. “Feelings” is the only thing Pat has been operating on for quite a while. Thinking, logic, reason, not so much.”

    Sigh. I had no secret plan. I said something in the heat of the moment, after having my words distorted for weeks. If I had a plan to drive Jeff Goldstein off the Internet, why did I avoid mentioning him at all, for months, even as he continued to pick at the scab by writing “Fuck Patterico” in threads having nothing to do with me?

    In fact, if anyone has a plan to harm someone in real life, it’s your crew, with your repeated threats to try to get me fired and such. Posting contact information for my employer? Check. Threatening to investigate whether I posted from work? Check. Numerous commenters saying my bosses should be notified about my behavior? Check. Coupling my name and job title with words like “anti-Semite”? Check.

    Not to mention the threats of violence.

    Nor were my comments intended as a Google bomb but rather as a defense against a Google bomb against me. But my intentions don’t count, do they?

    And please. To say I’m free to comment there is diningenuous in the extreme, given that if I do my words are subject to alteration without notice to the reader.

    (And don’t try to cite the posts of that liar Ishmael. Those posts are revealed as dishonest the second you click on any of his links.)

    I have put this behind me. I will not revive it despite the best efforts of your crew to revive it. I don’t know if you’re missing the drama or what, but as I say in my final update above, a site that engages in the behavior your crew has engaged in is not worth my time. I am done with this controversy and done with your site.

    Why are you trying to revive this fight, Darleen? It’s time to move on. Democrats are getting ready to shove a public option down our throats through reconciliation. Why not leave the politics of personal destruction behind and concentrate on the real issues?

    Patterico (424a94)

  234. If you can’t do this, Darleen, I’ll do it for you. I banned Joe for trying to start fights and I’ll ban you and anyone else who tries to continue this fight here. I haven’t banned you yet, but if you’re seeking martyr status — and I suspect you are; you love playing the victim — keep the fight going and I’ll happily ban you.

    In fact, I’m instructing Stashiu and DRJ that anyone from PW who comes over here trying to start fights should be banned and have their comments deleted.

    Deleted, not rewritten without notice. That’s how we roll here.

    Patterico (424a94)

  235. Finally: Darleen: that first hyperlink in your most recent post? It goes to a list of purported comments by me, yet several of those comments were rewritten. Not just the links but in several cases the words as well.

    For example, I never called you violent, yet my comments were rewritten so that I now appear to be making the accusation that you and Dan Collins are violent. I never made that accusation. It was added after the fact by someone who treated my words as playthings to be toyed with, without notice to the reader.

    This is why I am done with the site you post on and want nothing more to do with it.

    Now, let us speak of this no more. There are real problems in this country. Stop trying to get me fired and start trying to get Obama fired.

    Patterico (424a94)

  236. I hope Darleen climbs off her cross. We need the wood. That sick twist dicentra as well.

    daleyrocks (718861)

  237. poor pitiful little daley

    you’re not even worth it for me to “threaten” to slap your face (I’d be doing it on dicentra’s behalf — as a woman she’s more man than you’ll ever be, daley) … it would be kind of hard to find seeing how you have it buried all the time in Pat’s ass.

    darleen (fe8e8e)

  238. I find it ever more difficult to fathom why I ever found PW worthwhile and I have removed the dishonorable PW from my list of worthwhile links. Let them wallow in their mud. And, Darleen, please do come over to my site and use your foul language there so I can more readily ban you from my site. My daughter is a better, more worthwhile woman than you.

    And since you have this hate on for Patterico, quit visiting his site (which would mean you quit posting your idiotic nonsense on his site).

    John Hitchcock (3fd153)

  239. I have a thread ready-made for me to ban PW commenters over on my site.

    John Hitchcock (3fd153)

  240. Please do give it a rest, Darleen. I apologize for calling you a stupid bitch. And for questioning the respective beauty of your mind and face.

    As for this slap thing, I don’t go in for California “sensuality”, but for those who do I recommend that you keep it below the neck until you know each other really well. And have a safe word, such as “palomino”, always.

    nk (df76d4)

  241. Darleen,

    Give it a rest. Seriously.

    Patterico (424a94)

  242. Have a beer, Darleen. Take a breath. You can do it! This is not about you or your fancied victimhood. Heh.

    daleyrocks (718861)

  243. I just watched a movie “The Hidden Fortress”, one of Kurosawa’s best with Toshiro Mifune. There’s these two guys who are always at each others’ throats when they have nobody else to blame for their condition. When faced with a real enemy, they hug and protect each other.

    nk (df76d4)

  244. Darleen comes to a thread that’s been dead for ywo days, drops a few turds and then gets irate that people dare to respond. I think that says a whole lot more about Darleen than it does the commenters here.

    CIVILITY NOW!!!!!

    daleyrocks (718861)

  245. Yes, Daleyrocks, civility and maybe a little bit of humor, now. That’s how Patterico wants it (although I’m not sure about the himor part) and he’s paying for this party.

    nk (df76d4)

  246. See Darleen’s latest post over at PW. Venting about something or other. Sibstitute the word “Goldstein” for the word “liberal” in the quote pulled from her post below, and it it a nice summay of the most recent kerfuffle.

    ““Hate” is no longer what you do or say, but what a liberal says that you think and projects on to you. You are punished for what someone else claims you were thinking. It hardly makes sense, but it does serve a political purpose. You could call it Secondhand Hate.”

    daleyrocks (718861)

  247. I know that Protein Wisdom is a cesspool, Daleyrocks. Let them swim there by themselves.

    nk (df76d4)


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