ObamaCare: Lieberman, Nelson needle Reid’s trial balloon (and the CLASS Act)
[Posted by Karl]
The Hill feigned a little surprise over this:
Sens. Joe Lieberman (I-Conn.) and Ben Nelson (D-Neb.) both said a Medicare “buy-in” option for those aged 55-64 was a deal breaker.
***
Lieberman said Democrats should stop looking for a public option “compromise” and simply scrap the idea altogether.
***
If Democrats stick to relying primarily on the bill’s subsidies, the legislation would pass easily and with bipartisan support, Lieberman argued.
But how can anyone be surprised, after Sen. Bill Nelson (D-FL) already signaled his doubts about Reid’s Kennedy retread? Sen. Ben Nelson is a creature of the insurance industry from a state that has been Red since 1964. Sen. Joe Lieberman represents Connecticut, a state which — like Nebraska — is home to a number of major insurers and lukewarm at best on ObamaCare.
Lieberman apparently reiterated his opposition directly to Sen. Maj. Ldr. Harry Reid:
The pledge by Lieberman to oppose the bill represents a potentially huge setback for reform proponents, many of who saw the latest round of policy compromises as the last true chance to corral the needed votes. That said, leadership has several fallback options (none of them promising) should Lieberman follow through on the threat…
TNR’s Jonathan Cohn claims that Lieberman previously told Reid he could support the Medicare buy-in, but for sheer, unadulterated schadenfreude, you cannot beat Ezra Klein accusing ol’ Joe of being “willing to cause the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people in order to settle an old electoral score.” Democrats are quietly panicking over the possibility that Reid’s trial balloon will get a bad CBO score. But what the Nelsons and Lieberman (and Snowe, for that matter) are suggesting is that a good CBO score likely does not matter.
Indeed, the “public option” is not the only problem these senators have with Reid’s bill, either. Lieberman said that Ted Kennedy’s CLASS Act (a long-term care entitlement program that Sen. Kent Conrad called “a Ponzi scheme of the first order”) also has to come out of the bill. Ben Nelson has previously issued the same demand. And there were 51 votes to remove it — a majority, but not the 60 required under the current Senate procedure. Like the public option, Reid included the CLASS Act to appease his Lefty base, and will have to find a way to back out.
Emptywheel complains that relying primarily on the bill’s subsidies amounts to a bailout of the health care industry… and she is correct. Unfortunately, most of her friends on the Left do not want to confront the fact that Obama’s healthcare strategy has always been to buy off the interest groups, and to give up the public option as part of the deal. Consequently, they end up stamping their feet, demanding something they were never going to get, instead of joining a bipartisan coalition to kill a bill that whacks 68.4 million individuals, families, and single parents with incomes under $200K, and does nothing to meaningfully address the cost curve it claims to bend.
–Karl
Isn’t hte public option the most popular part of reform? There’s Lieberman for you. Can’t believe this guy was actually a Veep candidate.
imdw (e66d8d) — 12/14/2009 @ 7:48 amPay attention to Mickey Kaus in his scenario where the House simply passes the Senate bill and Obama signs it. That avoids the final vote on the reconciliation package. This would short circuit the process and nail the Senators who thought they could “vote for it before I voted against it.”
They are really desperate and will try to pass anything.
Mike K (2cf494) — 12/14/2009 @ 7:51 amHmmm, I really don’t need a CBO score to know that this entire bill from the opening word to the closing word is a piece of crap.
GM Roper (85dcd7) — 12/14/2009 @ 7:52 amBeing a Nebraskan, Nelson knows if he votes for this garbage hes done. He might already be on the way out for voting for Cloture.
Dopey (a812c5) — 12/14/2009 @ 8:05 am“They are really desperate and will try to pass anything.”
I like the idea of how a bill passing both houses, including the “60 votes needed for anything” senate, means that they are “desperate.”
imdw (8122a7) — 12/14/2009 @ 8:13 amThe various provisions of proposed healthcare legislation can be discussed and judged as more or less beneficial, but mostly they’re irrelevant.
A real reform effort would start with obvious measures to eliminate the problems plaguing Medicare now. Tort reform, portability between jobs and across State lines, the elimination of organized fraud to name but 3 of the many ways to improve care and lower costs.
If improvement of healthcare for American citizens was the real object, the agenda would be simple and straight forward. But that’s not the case because there is a semi-secret and hidden agenda behind Obamacare: Cloward/Piven.
Obamacare is a Cloward/Piven strategy designed to overload the US economy under the guise of reforming healthcare. By adding more and more beneficiaries to an already overloaded system you hasten it’s collapse. TARP, Stimulus, Cap and Trade are all part of the strategy. It’s the old story of the straw that broke the camel’s back. Obamacare is Cloward/Piven’s final bail of straw.
Cloward/Piven was first proposed in 1966 and named after Columbia University sociologists Richard Andrew Cloward and Frances Fox Piven, the “Cloward-Piven Strategy” seeks to hasten the fall of capitalism by overloading the US and State government bureaucracy with a flood of expensive programs and impossible entitlements, thus pushing the American economy into one financial crisis after another and finally into economic collapse.
That’s the medicine President Obama has in store for you. Caveat emptor!
ropelight (32df13) — 12/14/2009 @ 8:20 amI like the idea how bill cost/revenue guidelines can be given to the CBO to estimate against – but the CBO doesn’t do a second estimate on real time lines. Like asking how much will my new car cost if I only make the first three year’s payments on a five year loan. Wow, I just saved 40%!
Corwin (ea9428) — 12/14/2009 @ 8:21 amI like the idea of how a bill passing both houses, including the “60 votes needed for anything” senate, means that they are “desperate.”
Do you have anything to add to this blog, other than your inane prattle? Have you ever provided a link to a real, honest to goodness objective source for your many bloviations and obfuscations? Try it sometime, or else get used to 24/7 mockery from now on.
Dmac (a964d5) — 12/14/2009 @ 8:25 amMike K,
I’ve linked to stuff about the ping-pong strategy before. At this point, it might be their best strategy, but it’s problematic. First, the Senate has to pass a bill, which isn’t proving easy. Second, the Senate bill has to be able to pass the House (and the House bill passed more narrowly than people thought would be the case). While we assume that Nancy will always be able to break enough arms, I think that what would happen would be that Reid’s “manager’s amendment” would become the de facto House-Senate conference, and that would further complicate Reid’s already complicated job.
Karl (f07e38) — 12/14/2009 @ 8:52 am#6, I really hope you are wrong. But I’ve been feeling that way as well for quite some time. Much of what has been going on at the Federal level (and elsewhere) points to that agenda. The few times I’ve tried to talk to others about it, they seem to think that either I’m too paranoid, or if I really feel that way, why have any investments in stock etc.?
Corwin (ea9428) — 12/14/2009 @ 8:54 amI don’t have an answer.
These are odd times indeed. If they are successful, what’s next?
what is the most hilarious is watching the dems call lieberman a back stabber. takes one to know one, i guess.
A.W. (e7d72e) — 12/14/2009 @ 9:01 amThey are really desperate and will try to pass anything.”
I like the idea of how a bill passing both houses, including the “60 votes needed for anything” senate, means that they are “desperate.”
Comment by imdw
imdw, I’ve been treating you as a serious commenter. Was that a mistake ? Did you read my comment ? The House passed a different bill. There is a lot of difference in the preferences of the House Democrats and the Senate. The only reason to circumvent the normal process of passing a House bill and reconciling the two would be the fear that the public likes this bill less the more they see of it.
Secondly, can you tell me what the Senate bill does ? Dick Durbin is the assistant majority leader and he said on the Senate floor Saturday that he doesn’t know what is in the bill.
Do you ?
Mike K (2cf494) — 12/14/2009 @ 10:05 amMike K, imd-dummy could care less. He’s a democrap activist who is blind to reality, until he’s personally accosted for his endless propaganda in person.
PCD (1d8b6d) — 12/14/2009 @ 10:34 am[…] People in “fat cat”-infested houses shouldn’t throw stones Patterico’s Pontifications: ObamaCare: Lieberman, Nelson needle Reid’s trial balloon (and the CLASS Act) Texas For Palin: Elmendorf book signing draws crowd of over 2,000 Conservatives For Palin: Going […]
Sarah Palin, a Media Star; Obama, Media Liability « VotingFemale Speaks! (73d6c4) — 12/14/2009 @ 10:49 amimdw, I’ve been treating you as a serious commenter.
Obviously, you haven’t been paying enough attention to our own little TrollBot 1000, Mike. The thing just regurgitates whatever talking points it gets from Daily Kos.
Dmac (a964d5) — 12/14/2009 @ 12:36 pm“The only reason to circumvent the normal process of passing a House bill and reconciling the two would be the fear that the public likes this bill less the more they see of it.”
Mike makes a strong case. It’s hard to see why such a strong majority of democrats would be desperate to even get a bill passed, but nevertheless, they are having a lot of trouble and are using tactics that show they cannot reliably get votes. This things just barely passed the house, and has lost popularity since then.
Dustin (44f8cb) — 12/14/2009 @ 12:36 pmMike K, imd-dummy could care less. He’s a democrap activist who is blind to reality, until he’s personally accosted for his endless propaganda in person.
Comment by PCD
I have seen some fairly reasonable posts from him so I was trying to treat him as a reasonable person. I can’t understand that one, though.
Why would the Democats be trying so hard to pass a bill that no one but Reid and his staff knows the contents of ? Reid has already shown what a mental giant he is.
MR. RUSSERT: Why couldn’t you accept Clarence Thomas?
SEN. REID: I think that he has been an embarrassment to the Supreme Court. I think that his opinions are poorly written. I don’t–I just don’t think that he’s done a good job as a Supreme Court justice.
Later, when he was asked about that comment, he showed that he had no idea of what he was talking about.
That’s Harry Reid.
Mike K (2cf494) — 12/14/2009 @ 12:51 pmropelight is the only one here that knows what is going on.
The only thing stopping this is that Obama and his band of thugs didn’t keep enough bribe money back to buy off those that can be bought. And they started too late with too little.
But this much is true. The democrats are going to give something to Obama to sign into law and tack on whatever they want later. The only good thing about this monster take over is that it is too big to make work in less than three or four years.
All we can do it try and take back the government from these thugs,crooks and traitors and null and void all of these laws, bills, regulations and traitorous acts. But in order to do that we are going to have to clean out the house and the senate.
They are the problem.
It’s either that or another revolution.
Papa Ray
Papa Ray (4091d1) — 12/14/2009 @ 1:05 pmimdw, like most Democrats, do not know what is being proposed and don’t care.
In some cases, this is because the myth is more important than the reality.
In most other cases, it is because a large number of Democrats don’t care what is in the bill because they intend for it to be a stealth bill under the cover of which they later get what they really want. In other words, they don’t care what is in it because it does not matter what they tell the American people, they intend to deceive them.
SPQR (26be8b) — 12/14/2009 @ 1:27 pmSPQR, you have that right. Are you really a Roman ?
Mike K (2cf494) — 12/14/2009 @ 1:35 pmWhat good’s a revolution, papa ray? As long as we have free elections and the people buy into this extended campaign of more and more patently unsustainable entitlements… spending we all know is outright ridiculous and beyond our wealth… deficits we know are ruinous to capitalism and our children’s freedom and prosperity….
so long as they can keep voting for people who want to give them all this crap, what good would a revolution be?
Granted, many of the people don’t really want this health care ‘reform’, but a lot of them sure don’t mind the deficits or the idea of the government putting their health care on the national credit card for our kids to pay off.
We’ve got elections. I don’t think they are quite bad enough that Obama gains more than a couple of points. The revolution has to take place in the heads of Americans who realize that our present unemployment rate or benefit quality isn’t the main issue affecting our prosperity.
Dustin (44f8cb) — 12/14/2009 @ 1:44 pmMike K., no good sir. The origin of the nickname does relate to my interest in the history of the Roman Republic as well as a hobby of mine.
SPQR (26be8b) — 12/14/2009 @ 1:45 pmIt strikes me that Lieberman is trying to save the Dems from their own stupidity, not make life difficult for them.
Pay attention to Mickey Kaus in his scenario where the House simply passes the Senate bill and Obama signs it.
Fine, they can call it the “Elect A Republican Majority Act Of 2010”. This is a win/win for the GOP at this point.
Subotai (2c9b89) — 12/14/2009 @ 1:59 pm“The House passed a different bill. ”
And it would be desperate for them to pass another…
imdw (de7003) — 12/14/2009 @ 2:00 pmimdw, now you are intentionally avoiding Mike K’s point. More support for his doubt that you are serious.
SPQR (26be8b) — 12/14/2009 @ 2:03 pmDustin: “The revolution has to take place in the heads of Americans who realize that our present unemployment rate or benefit quality isn’t the main issue affecting our prosperity.”
Your correct. But, and this a big but. The ones that don’t know or care to know or would not understand or believe you if you told them:
Still vote.
And they vote for democrats because the democrats give them the best deal. Or so they think, but little do they know it is actually the worse deal. The Blacks in America have almost been completely destroyed by the democrats but if you talk to the average black on the street they are all for the government of and by Obama, and nothing you can tell them will convince them otherwise. As are millions on the left and a good margin of the Latinos. Even some middle of the road republicans still think Obama can save America. Not understanding nor will ever be convinced that there are forces behind Obama that are determined to change America into something not ever resembling what it once was.
Ever since the turn of the century the democrats and others have been trying to get a strangle hold on America to make her into what they think is best. Well, they have her by the neck now and it will be up to some American citizens to make them let go; because the rest of America is at the mall or just jamming and jiving right off the cliff with no worries.
Papa Ray
Papa Ray (4091d1) — 12/14/2009 @ 2:04 pmSPQR – further support for the above is not needed or required. That has long since been established.
JD (b537f4) — 12/14/2009 @ 2:06 pmWhat good’s a revolution…
It affords the opportunity for termination with extreme prejudice.
AD - RtR/OS! (cc5dea) — 12/14/2009 @ 2:17 pm“In most other cases, it is because a large number of Democrats don’t care what is in the bill because they intend for it to be a stealth bill under the cover of which they later get what they really want. In other words, they don’t care what is in it because it does not matter what they tell the American people, they intend to deceive them.”
It’s not saying much, but I have been following this bill more than any other.
I do like the folks telling me that Lieberman is saving democrats. That’s great advice and I wonder why more democrats don’t take advice like this? Right? I mean, of course we should listen to our former veep candidate.
imdw (5f60be) — 12/14/2009 @ 2:19 pm“…a large number of Democrats don’t care what is in the bill because they intend for it to be a stealth bill under the cover of which they later get what they really want…”
As in so much other legislation, the actual legislative language is relatively benign, but it is the regulatory framework created by the bureaucracy that will drive the country to despair, poverty, and perdition.
AD - RtR/OS! (cc5dea) — 12/14/2009 @ 2:23 pmComment by imdw — 12/14/2009 @ 2:19 pm
You quote my sentence but then do not address it at all. Nada.
SPQR (26be8b) — 12/14/2009 @ 2:26 pm“You quote my sentence but then do not address it at all. ”
I totally disagree. The Death Panels are totally not stealth or deceptive. And neither is the plan to fistgate your kids into the gay.
imdw (e031a3) — 12/14/2009 @ 2:29 pmSPQR – See? No further proof required.
JD (b537f4) — 12/14/2009 @ 2:33 pmAnyone who believes imdw is a serious commenter has not been paying attention to him. Anyone who realizes that imdw is not a serious commenter should not be paying attention to him.
Stashiu3 (44da70) — 12/14/2009 @ 2:40 pmSerious people respond to this:
“In most other cases, it is because a large number of Democrats don’t care what is in the bill because they intend for it to be a stealth bill under the cover of which they later get what they really want. In other words, they don’t care what is in it because it does not matter what they tell the American people, they intend to deceive them.”
seriously.
imdw (4dbe70) — 12/14/2009 @ 2:43 pmStash, just so you know, I’m putting effort into doing as you ask.
Dustin (44f8cb) — 12/14/2009 @ 2:48 pmDustin, it’s greatly appreciated and I did notice. I hope others follow your example in this.
Stashiu3 (44da70) — 12/14/2009 @ 2:52 pm“It strikes me that Lieberman is trying to save the Dems from their own stupidity, not make life difficult for them.
Pay attention to Mickey Kaus in his scenario where the House simply passes the Senate bill and Obama signs it.
Fine, they can call it the “Elect A Republican Majority Act Of 2010″. This is a win/win for the GOP at this point.
Comment by Subotai ”
You have a point. Joe, however, has nothing to lose and loves his country. He is making calculations politically, of course, but at the end of the day he doesn’t want to screw up the country too badly. He’s a very liberal democrat on domestic issues, but he knows this isn’t going to help the people.
I’m not sure what to make of the democrat’s long term strategy. Going for broke?
Dustin (44f8cb) — 12/14/2009 @ 2:55 pmComment by imdw — 12/14/2009 @ 2:29 pm
Thank you for proving my point with that.
SPQR (26be8b) — 12/14/2009 @ 2:56 pm“Joe, however, has nothing to lose and loves his country”
He has the support of the insurance industry to lose.
[note: fished from spam filter. –Stashiu]
imdw (55b119) — 12/14/2009 @ 3:02 pm“I do like the folks telling me that Lieberman is saving democrats. That’s great advice and I wonder why more democrats don’t take advice like this? Right?”
imdw – I’m glad you feel that way. Why don’t you fire off some emails to Democrat Senators suggesting that they listen to Lieberman for the good of the country? It can essentially be the same email, just change the addressee so it shouldn’t take too long.
Let us know what kind of responses you get.
daleyrocks (718861) — 12/14/2009 @ 3:02 pmSen. Ben Nelson is a creature of the insurance industry from a state that has been Red since 1964. Sen. Joe Lieberman represents Connecticut, a state which — like Nebraska — is home to a number of major insurers and lukewarm at best on ObamaCare.
Karl: I appreciate your honesty in delineating the real reason these men oppose the public option. They’re not unusual in putting state and Big Business before country, but it’s still aggravating, considering the public option is about the only thing in the bill a clear majority supports, based on polling.
All the Dems need for this bill to be is a good start, and Lieberman and his gang want to make sure it’s not even that.
Myron (6a93dd) — 12/14/2009 @ 3:03 pm“Why don’t you fire off some emails to Democrat Senators suggesting that they listen to Lieberman for the good of the country? It can essentially be the same email, just change the addressee so it shouldn’t take too long.”
I’m sure they know that the best plan is to get rid of one of the more popular parts of health reform. If only we would listen to right wing advice on how to make the democrats more popular!
imdw (35c051) — 12/14/2009 @ 3:14 pmKarl has only covered this canard about 80 times here. Repitition will not make it true.
Maybe “a good start” towards single-payer is what the people are rejecting.
JD (b537f4) — 12/14/2009 @ 3:21 pmI mean, of course we should listen to our former veep candidate.
I get the impression that this was meant as sarcasm, but I’m not sure why you’d assume that your (very liberal) former veep candidate is the enemy here.
What is the incentive for the Dems to pass politically unpopular legislation? The best argument I’ve heard is, “Do it for Obama, so he can look like a winner”.
I’m not sure why House and Senate Dems should be expected to fall on their swords just to help Obama look good, even assuming that passage of this bill would make him look good.
Subotai (a207ab) — 12/14/2009 @ 3:25 pm“If only we would listen to right wing advice on how to make the democrats more popular!”
imcw – Since Reid can’t get 60 votes for a public option and at least 56% of the public is against the bill and Obama’s favorable have declined to 44%, listening to conservative advice couldn’t hurt, could it?
daleyrocks (718861) — 12/14/2009 @ 3:29 pmIt’s not saying much, but I have been following this bill more than any other.
And of course with no evidence on offer, more hilarity from TrollBot 1000. It sounds like Melanie Griffith with her infamous baby talk persona – but without the intelligence.
Karl: I appreciate your honesty in delineating the real reason these men oppose the public option
I’m surprised that Moron hasn’t called Karl a liar at this point, since that’s his fallback specialty when challenged.
Dmac (a964d5) — 12/14/2009 @ 3:31 pmAll the Dems need for this bill to be is a good start
A good start towards what?
Subotai (a207ab) — 12/14/2009 @ 3:32 pm“imcw – Since Reid can’t get 60 votes for a public option and at least 56% of the public is against the bill and Obama’s favorable have declined to 44%, listening to conservative advice couldn’t hurt, could it?”
I think he should listen to the advice to forget 60 votes.
“And of course with no evidence on offer,”
Of course. When someone writes this:
“In most other cases, it is because a large number of Democrats don’t care what is in the bill because they intend for it to be a stealth bill under the cover of which they later get what they really want. In other words, they don’t care what is in it because it does not matter what they tell the American people, they intend to deceive them.”
Serious internet wants serious evidence.
imdw (e2084c) — 12/14/2009 @ 3:33 pmAwesome news – Harkin says the Medicare buy – in’s DOA:
http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/12/harkin-theres-enough-good-in-this-bill-without-medicare-buy-in-trigger.php
Now let’s watch Moron and his bootlicking stooge imadoofus spew this one into a total victory.
Dmac (a964d5) — 12/14/2009 @ 3:37 pmMore awesome – a key administrator admits that the savings attributed to the bill is utter BS:
http://www.commentarymagazine.com/blogs/index.php/rubin/196382
This gets better and better.
Dmac (a964d5) — 12/14/2009 @ 3:40 pm“Of course. When someone writes this:”
imdw – That’s Myron’s basic position. Are you calling Myron a liar? I thought you two were on the same team, the losers.
daleyrocks (718861) — 12/14/2009 @ 3:43 pm“Now let’s watch Moron and his bootlicking stooge imadoofus spew this one into a total victory.”
Yeah. Going with lieberman is total victory on health reform. That’s a nice spin….
imdw (4519c4) — 12/14/2009 @ 3:47 pmiamadimwit’s next non-mendoucheous comment will be its first.
JD (560084) — 12/14/2009 @ 3:55 pm“Going with lieberman is total victory on health reform.”
What is your definition of victory on health reform?
Subotai (a207ab) — 12/14/2009 @ 3:57 pm“What is your definition of victory on health reform?”
Paying for it like the GOP did with Medicare Part D.
imdw (565485) — 12/14/2009 @ 4:03 pmI suspect the economic and budget predictions about ObamaCare will be about as accurate as those of the prescription drug plan, the one that the Dems whined about not spending enough.
JD (560084) — 12/14/2009 @ 4:06 pmI wasn’t expecting an intelligent response, just letting you make a clown of yourself. And surprise!, you did exactly that.
You have as much interest in healthcare reform as you did in the Iraq war. They’re all just spitting contests to you, not things which have any intrinsic worth in themselves. Your notion of “victory” in any political contest is the Dems getting what they want. The details of what they want are meaningless to you.
Subotai (a207ab) — 12/14/2009 @ 4:11 pmPaying for it like the GOP did with Medicare Part D.
But one of their point people just admitted that the thing has no way in hell of paying for itself. So what are you proposing the Dems do, Mein Derriere?
Dmac (a964d5) — 12/14/2009 @ 4:13 pmThat response just proved that you don’t even bother to look at links, you just blather on to your next talking point, like the good little footsoldier you are.
Dmac (a964d5) — 12/14/2009 @ 4:14 pm“But one of their point people just admitted that the thing has no way in hell of paying for itself.”
This is why I advocate getting GOP support to pay for this like Medicare Part D was paid for by the GOP.
imdw (c3c479) — 12/14/2009 @ 4:16 pmAllow me to translate Imadweebs incoherent ramblings.
“I think that the Rethuglicans did some stupid things. And as a loyal lemming for the Democrat cause, I think that my party should be entitled to do things just as stupid, if not more so”.
Subotai (a207ab) — 12/14/2009 @ 4:29 pmHugh Hewitt is now saying that the public option and Medicare expansion are gone. Reporters are hearing applause from the Democrats caucus room. No press conference as promised.
Will the lefties vote for this in the House ? They might just to get something passed. They are desperate, as I said.
If it passes, the next step will be to run on it in 2010 and repeal it with a GOP majority in 2011 as the catastrophic care was repealed.
We have a family member who has a severe hematology condition that is just appearing. She might have leukemia. The local hematologists will not see her for three weeks even though she is very, very anemic.
I called a friend who is a professor at both UCLA and SC. He is going to find someone to see her this week. We were talking about this and he commented that some specialties are already seeing significant shortages and new doctors do not have the work ethic we had. Some of that is poor reimbursement although she has good insurance. Their offices and even the doctors themselves are adjusted to the HMO world and the poor Medicare payment and have shifted to lower gear.
This is the future, folks. This woman is under 60 and may have acute leukemia and we are having trouble finding someone willing to see her in less than three weeks.
The left calls Death Panels lies.
Mike K (2cf494) — 12/14/2009 @ 4:55 pmMike, best of luck for your friend.
There is a serious problem in the medical profession. We want new, more advanced, harder to perform techniques, and we want to pay less. as a result, I think the incentive (profit) is being yanked away from vital professions.
There really is a need for reforms. Is this like the need for education reforms, where the last thing the so called reformers want is an end to the call for reform?
Dustin (44f8cb) — 12/14/2009 @ 5:08 pmlistening to conservative advice couldn’t hurt, could it
Yes, Daley, it could, and has. The bill’s favorables are plummeting b/c the left is not liking any of the changes being made to get the likes of Lieberman, Nelson and Snowe. The right already hated everything, as usual, and the middle was increasingly skeptical.
Meanwhile Obama has indicated very clearly he will sign anything that has the words “health” and “care” on the top, so he is not particularly useful at this juncture.
I consider it perverse that essentially three people in a country of 300 million are single-handedly shaping legislation that will affect 1/6th of the economy. Reconiciliation, which would at least draw the support of 55 or 57 senators, now makes even more sense. Dems could take a rule from the GOP playbook, when it passed its tax cuts for the rich: 50+1 is enough.
Chris Matthews, who has been Mr. Accomodationist on this issue, even dropped the “R” word on his show tonight.
I suspect, however, they’ll just go with the handover of cash to the insurance company and call it reform. Grr.
Dems would have been better off with 58 votes. 60 is a chimera, fool’s gold.
Lieberman is an eel. He lied during the campaign when he said he would not dis Obama at the GOP convention, and he’s kept right on lying — even after Obama saved him in the caucus.
I say let the righties have him. He has all the character traits that would fit right in with that gang.
Myron (998393) — 12/14/2009 @ 5:24 pmMike: I am sorry to hear about your family member, but are you blaming her lack of treatment options on a bill that hasn’t passed yet? Does the government run HMO’s?
I guess we all have personal stories to prove our points, seeing as how the health care system is much more broad and complex than the debates people have about the health care system.
I had a co-worker who had a brain tumor about four years ago. She is a military wife, with Tricare insurance. Her surgeon at Duke happened to be the same one who operated on the late Sen. Kennedy. Her case was fortunately less threatening, and she posted a full recovery. So the notion that government-run care is completely worthless doesn’t wash with me, and I’m sure it doesn’t wash with her. Every health care system has its problems.
Myron (998393) — 12/14/2009 @ 5:31 pmMyron,
The problem is that Medicare and Medicaid has already created disincentives for doctors to practice as much. Why work 12 hours a day when you won’t earn any more money than if you work 8 hours a day? In some specialties (like hematology, which is something our children need) there aren’t very many hematologists to begin with — we have to travel 6 hours to get to the nearest specialist and 12 hours to get to one who is willing to treat our sons, and we have good insurance … and he’s older so we may not be able to find one once he retires. Many of the new doctors just don’t want to work as hard and if they do, they don’t want to take the hard cases.
DRJ (84a0c3) — 12/14/2009 @ 5:49 pmSo the notion that government-run care is completely worthless doesn’t wash with me, and I’m sure it doesn’t wash with her.
Then you’ll obviously have no problems asking Mike if you and your former co – worker both can get a conference call together and tell her how awesome her situation is, correct?
Come on, let’s see the courage of your convictions.
Dmac (a964d5) — 12/14/2009 @ 6:55 pmLieberman is an eel. He lied during the campaign when he said he would not dis Obama at the GOP convention, and he’s kept right on lying — even after Obama saved him in the caucus.
Unlike your hero, who has been steadfast with all of his friends and political allies when they’ve gotten into trouble with their past statements and behavior. Correct?
Dmac (a964d5) — 12/14/2009 @ 6:57 pmSo now the fanatics are attacking Lieberman’s wife.
Class acts.
SPQR (26be8b) — 12/14/2009 @ 7:22 pmLieberman is an eel. He lied during the campaign when he said he would not dis Obama at the GOP convention, and he’s kept right on lying — even after Obama saved him in the caucus.
What exactly are these big lies Lieberman told?
I say let the righties have him. He has all the character traits that would fit right in with that gang.
It’s cute how you always slip little comments like that in. How does the big Lieberman lies, whatever they are, compare to, oh, Obama saying he won’t sign a bill that adds to the deficit? Or Obama saying under “his” health care plan, “if you like your insurance, you can keep it”? Or that “lobbyists won’t find a job in my White House.” Or he won’t raise taxes one dime on anyone making under $250,000. Or…ah nevermind. Let’s not even get started on Biden, either Clinton, etc.
Gerald A (a66d02) — 12/14/2009 @ 7:40 pmReconiciliation, which would at least draw the support of 55 or 57 senators, now makes even more sense.
Trying to pass nationalized healthcare via the reconcilliation process would be a nuclear option, and would draw a nuclear response from the GOP.
Subotai (a207ab) — 12/14/2009 @ 9:16 pm“What exactly are these big lies Lieberman told?”
A recent one is support for a Medicare Buy-in.
“Trying to pass nationalized healthcare via the reconcilliation process would be a nuclear option, and would draw a nuclear response from the GOP.”
What would the nuclear response be? They don’t vote for anything? They end the filibuster? Plus reconciliation wouldn’t allow many of the features of health reform. No exchange, for example.
imdw (e2feb0) — 12/14/2009 @ 9:45 pm…and Myron’s favorite Boy – Toy chimes in like a loyal bootlicker. Get a room, this is getting out of hand.
Dmac (a964d5) — 12/15/2009 @ 6:36 am