Patterico's Pontifications

5/31/2009

Abortion Doctor Killed (Updated)

Filed under: Abortion,Crime — DRJ @ 10:51 am

[Guest post by DRJ]

A Kansas abortion doctor has been shot and killed in church:

“George Tiller, a Wichita doctor who was one of the few doctors in the nation to perform late-term abortions, was shot to death on Sunday as he attended church, city officials in Wichita said.”

Whoever did this is a fool. Not only does this hurt the anti-abortion cause and go against Christian teachings, but it validates the recent report warning of conservative domestic terrorists.

– DRJ

UPDATE: A suspect is in custody:

“[T]he suspect in the shooting of Dr. George Tiller is in custody in the Kansas City area. Wichita police say the man was arrested near Gardner, KS at around 2:00 Sunday afternoon.”

The suspect is described as “a white male in his 50′s or 60′s with grey hair that is balding in the middle. He is about 6’1″ and about 220 pounds and was wearing a white shirt and dark pants. The suspect was last seen in a light blue Ford Taurus, possibly an early 1990′s model. It has a K-State vanity plate and a Kansas license plate number 225 BAB.”

– DRJ

199 Responses to “Abortion Doctor Killed (Updated)”

  1. Jumpin the Gun a litle bit, maybe he just owed someone money, or was sleepin with Tony Soprano’s wife… wasn’t there a “Law and Order” episode
    like this???

    Frank Drackman (1ff0ad)

  2. Are you sure he was shot to death? Maybe it was a lightning bolt.

    Funeral Guy (f4df54)

  3. DRJ – I agree. The Obama justice department will use this as an excuse to further their political attacks on opponents.

    Abortions will only be reduced by societal change, by emphasizing the reality of the procedure. All this shooting does is distract from that.

    Apogee (e2dc9b)

  4. Frank,

    That’s a fair point. This could be something personal but the odds are it’s related to Tiller’s job performing late-term abortions. I’m confident that the overwhelming majority of right-to-life advocates do not support violence like this, and if Tiller was targeted by an anti-abortion activist it should not taint the entire movement. There are fools in every crowd.

    DRJ (2901e6)

  5. This is an isolated act by a deranged individual. To play politics with it could well backfire on the administration.

    Kevin Murphy (0b2493)

  6. Anti-abortion violence is extremely rare. NARAL used to track on their website, but I believe they took down the listings.

    I believe this the first murder of an abortionist since the late Barnet Stepian. ASIR, that was the late 90′s.

    Tiller himself killed more human beings than all anti-abortion zealots. Obamacare will kill more Americans than anti-abortion fanatics.

    To paraphrase the Chief Justice: The way to stop the killings, is stop killing human being.

    DavidL (02e14f)

  7. The deceased was previously shot twice in his arms, by abortion opponents. Therefore to call his murder “an isolated act by a deranged individual” is quite silly. He has been a marked man for some time.

    Curiously, according to figures that have recently appeared in the news, abortions are down — and out-of-wedlock births up.

    Bristol Palin is the new role model for today’s young people.

    That should please you greatly Mr. Murphy.

    David Ehrenstein (3da226)

  8. An isolated act, yes. But still, it’s the act of a murderer, not a “fool”.

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (0ea407)

  9. It doesn’t matter that it was one deranged individual – it’s the always hoped for ammunition of the pro-abortion crowd to make it a collective validation that all pro-lifers are a deranged group of people who continually deny others their right to choose. And now Dr. Tiller has been denied his right to choose life. It’s all the left needs to up their game.

    And yet it goes without saying that this does not change the fact that the murders Dr. Tiller committed were just as heinous, deplorable and wrong as he himself denied the right to life to untold numbers of babies. None of it is justified. But that will be conveniently lost in the outcry.

    Dana (aedf1d)

  10. Dana,
    Abortion is not murder under the law. That is your personal belief. Many people share your belief, many people don’t.

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (0ea407)

  11. IMO the two aren’t mutually exclusive, Bradley. He (or she) can be both a murderer and a fool.

    DRJ (2901e6)

  12. Domestic terrorist? RUFKM?

    Not only are the facts missing to make a judgment (ask Jose Maria Aznar) but where is the intent to terrorize?

    HeavenSent (1e97ff)

  13. DRJ, point taken. But simply describing the assailant as a “fool” minimizes the offense. Being a fool is not against the law.

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (0ea407)

  14. Well when some Muslim goes nuts, like that Egyptian in the LA Airport, he is called a lone wolf. But I know this will be made into something to slander pro life forces.

    The person who did this is a murderer and should be punished to the full extent of the law. Whether you consider Tiller a murderer of children is no defense.

    Joe (17aeff)

  15. David–

    Are you actually saying that a murder pleases me? If so, you WILL apologize.

    As far as Bristol Palin, she never even enters my thoughts. If she’s a role model for anyone, she’s a role model for left-wing strawmen.

    Kevin Murphy (0b2493)

  16. Not only are the facts missing to make a judgment (ask Jose Maria Aznar) but where is the intent to terrorize?

    Anti-abortion violence is one of the few acts of political violence that has a measurable effect. Unlike the latest bombing by, say, a separatist group, killing abortion providers leads to 1) fewer doctors willing to do the procedure, 2) increased security at clinics providing the procedure, and 3) the crowds outside the clinic seeming to those inside much more menacing, i.e. the very definition of “terrorism,” in that it terrorizes abortion providers every waking second of their lives. They’re not even safe in church anymore.

    So, all in all, it’s not just terrorism, it’s damn effective terrorism.

    SEK (072055)

  17. Obviously a nutjob, obsessed and deranged. And I hope for O’Reilly’s sake this isn’t one of his “co-bloggers”.

    SarahW (fdd722)

  18. Are you actually saying that a murder pleases me? If so, you WILL apologize.

    Kevin,

    I’m fairly sure that’s not what David E. meant, or I would not have approved his comment. (He gets moderated because he still not infrequently crosses the line, so only those comments that stay on the correct side of the line get approved.)

    Patterico (cc3b34)

  19. I agree with SEK: assuming (and we don’t know this yet) that the doctor was targeted because of his profession, this is terrorism — and it’s quite effective.

    Patterico (cc3b34)

  20. Abortion is not murder under the law. That is your personal belief. Many people share your belief, many people don’t.

    Slavery was also legal under the law at one time. Killing Jews was also a legal under Nazi Germany.

    And so it goes.

    Dana (aedf1d)

  21. My condolences and prayers go out to the Tiller family.

    Summary execution is wrong no matter what.

    That someone did this while the doctor was at church is doubly disgusting.

    kimsch (2ce939)

  22. Then by your definition even applying the law to criminals is terrorism since its intent is to change behavior by terrorizing them.

    Terrorism means something different to me and to be more precise it usually involves GROUPS who want GOVT TO CHANGE POLICIES and are willing to kill INNOCENT CIVILIANS in order to achieve some end.

    Mr Tiller is anything but an innocent civilian in this discussion and it is clear to me this is not about abortion but killing a 28 month baby.

    But again, it takes lawyers to confuse things with useless nuance.

    It would be like calling John Hinckley a terrorist or the guy who shot the Pope.

    HeavenSent (1e97ff)

  23. With that said, the offender should be fried.

    HeavenSent (1e97ff)

  24. Of course its really just like a really really really late term abortion…

    Frank Drackman (1ff0ad)

  25. Dana,
    Slavery was also legal under the law at one time. Killing Jews was also a legal under Nazi Germany.

    Such inflammatory rhetoric is especially inappropriate under the circumstances.

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (0ea407)

  26. Prosecute to the fullest extent of the law.

    Techie (9c008e)

  27. Killing Jews was also a legal under Nazi Germany.

    No, it wasn’t. There were moves to legally justify the euthanizing of the handicapped and mental patients, but by the time those propositions made it into bills, Hitler decided that it’d be best to wait until after the war to make it into law.

    But at no point was the killing of Jews legal.

    SEK (072055)

  28. I’ve updated the post because a suspect is in custody.

    DRJ (2901e6)

  29. it validates the recent report warning of conservative domestic terrorists.

    While I don’t condone murder as a political act, this is a reminder that Obama is the most divisive and radical figure of our time. The left knows this. In my opinion, to let the far left publish early predictions regarding conservative idealogical violence is simply letting them shape the dialogue. They cannot be accommodated to do this. I must respectfully disagree with this post while again stating that violence is not the answer. Barack Obama has done nothing to unite this nation or its political parties. Just the opposite.

    I will not let them get away with crowd incitement or public statements that promote their self-serving cover.

    Vermont Neighbor (efb5a9)

  30. Mr. Murphy I was clearly referring to Bristol Palin.

    David Ehrenstein (3da226)

  31. Bristol Palin is the new role model for today’s young people.

    Your trysts with sanity are brief, and leave you unchanged.

    Scott Jacobs (90ff96)

  32. #22 I think you mean 28 week baby. Killing is wrong. Babies, doctors, anybody. Hope this guy is NOT motivated by anti-abortion sentiment.

    Coming up: pop psychology about the frustrated neo-cons out of power…on a cable channel near you.

    ukuleledave (4e6cbb)

  33. on a cable channel near you.

    Pfft. As if I allow MSNBC anywhere near me.

    Scott Jacobs (90ff96)

  34. Killing of Jews as legal in Nazi Germany. Hitler WAS the LAW and he approved of the ” Final Solution”. Any counter argument is simply ignorant.

    Dennis D (ae900a)

  35. This is not a case of terrorism. This murder is an isolated situation unlike Obama pal Bill Ayers domestic terrorism.

    Dennis D (ae900a)

  36. Any counter argument is simply ignorant.

    Simply because he SAID to do it doesn’t actually mean it was legal. The statement is born by the fact that the laws back then did not – either overtly or by omission – make it LEGAL to kill Jews. It might well have been allowed and condoned, but it wasn’t LEGAL.

    There is a difference. I won’t hold you accountable, however, since you appear to be a complete moron.

    Scott Jacobs (90ff96)

  37. Such inflammatory rhetoric is especially inappropriate under the circumstances.

    Bradley, it’s disappointing that you reduce my statement to inflammatory rhetoric and deem to make a judgement as to the appropriateness of it under the circumstances. I thought more highly of you than that, and would have hoped you would also of me considering we have known each other for quite some time. I’m not quite sure why you would assume something cruel of me – or perhaps I’m misreading your tone….

    Given that, it goes without saying that the death of Dr. Tiller was unjustifiable murder and that the perpetrator should of course be fully prosecuted. Must I also add that murder of anyone is always heinous?

    My point in making my statement was in response to your statement that abortion is legal, as if that settles the abortion issue. Obviously as this issue continues to be one of the most provoking and divisive issues of our day, it indicates that although it is legal there is still an enormous amount of people who believe that that does not make it the morally correct decision. My point was that there have been matters in our history that were considered legal but certainly not morally correct and eventually, became illegal.

    Dana (aedf1d)

  38. Yes, 28 weeks. Apparently he presided over an abortion of women 28 weeks pregnant and somehow got off.

    Like I said, I suspect his murder has something to do with this case and the feeling by many that “enough is enough and if the law won’t do anything then I will.”

    Our politicians and legal system are out of wack. Real crime gets covered up under a blizzard of Political Correctness and criminals get treated like victims.

    Then you gt to hear “Pay your taxes and STFU from the likes of Biden and Special Interest Groups.”

    Something got to give and something did this morning.

    HeavenSent (1e97ff)

  39. The Left blaming “a movement” for this act by one deranged person is simply another example of their opportunistic distortion of the idea of individual responsibility and total hypocrisy.

    Where was leftist outrage over the murder of Theo Van Gogh, slain in the streets of tolerant Holland. Outside the utter silence and denial, there were cries to avoid generalizing about the Islamic community. And what happened after 9/11? Leftist paranoia about how an “entire group” would be demonized and persecuted in America.

    These people are children, and in any sane society would be marginalized and ignored. As it is, they control the machinery of public discourse.

    rrpjr (8888c8)

  40. this is a reminder that Obama is the most divisive and radical figure of our time.

    Translation: The President’s only “divisive” when my team’s not in power.

    Need I remind you that Bush was reviled by 50 percent of the country. How is that not divisive? Because it looks to me like it’s the country, only divided.

    SEK (072055)

  41. Patterico, it is domestic terrorism, and it will grievously hurt your whole cause.

    Just as Situationist Gianfranco Sanguinetti warned the international left, in his 1979 essay, that acts of terrorism always reinforce the powers of the State (his thesis was that State power and terrorism are mutually symbiotic and dependent on each other), the North American religious right is going to suffer great losses as a result of this morning’s terrorist act in Wichita. That, this time, the assassination attempt succeeded, and that it happened in the sanctuary of a church of a mainstream Protestant faith, will provoke a double whammy of shock and revulsion, including among tens of millions of Americans that do not like abortion, but likewise believe that assassination is obviously just as (or more) anti-life.
    The original assassination attempt on Dr. Tiller came eight months into the Clinton presidency. The parallel with today’s offense ought to be obvious: a pro-choice president takes office and the violent extremists go all crazy, whipped up by some of the same right wing radio talkers today as sixteen years ago.

    and..

    Just two-and-a-half years ago, Dr. Tiller was targeted with the usual vitriol by Fox News talker Bill O’Reilly, who falsely accused the doctor of performing late term abortions – legal to protect the health of the mother – to treat temporary psychological depression of the patient. Tiller denied the charge, and accused the then-attorney general of the state, Phill Kline, as being O’Reilly’s source for the claim. Kline had charged Dr. Tiller, in 2006, with 30 counts of administering abortions to minors and other crimes. The Court dismissed the charges. In 2007, Democratic Attorney General Paul Morrison charged Dr. Tiller on 19 counts. Two months ago, a jury acquitted the doctor on each and every charge.

    wheeler's cat (483126)

  42. I predict a 10-year setback for pro-life goals, just from this.
    In ten years the J-womb will be operational and the Bene Tleilax host wombs will make this discussion moot.

    wheeler's cat (483126)

  43. I guess I should blame all environmentalists for the Unabomber, who incidentally killed more members of my profession than anyone, put together, has killed abortionists.

    And who did not get the death penalty due to all the left-wing apologists. Hell. his hate speech is STILL up at the Washington Post site.

    Kevin Murphy (0b2493)

  44. ectogenesis
    In Japan, they can gestate goat embryos to term.
    Famed goat-blogger Mark Steyn must be thrilled.

    wheeler's cat (483126)

  45. Need I remind you that Bush was reviled by 50 percent of the country

    Reviled, you say? Talk about overheated rhetoric, you sound like Olberman on one of his typically – unhinged rants, or even worse, Errorstein. The only people who truly reviled Bush were the nutbags from the Left – the rest didn’t agree with his policies near the end of his second term. Hardly evidence of your characterization.

    Dmac (1ddf7e)

  46. Kevin, “they did it too” is not an excuse that will fly with the electorate.

    The predictable knee-jerk response from some in the pro-choice majority will be to attempt to demonize and link all Americans that define themselves as “pro life” as aiding and abetting this act of terrorism by having a mere opinion, just as George W. Bush and others attempted to link all oppositional dissent to the attacks of September 11, 2001. And while it is an absolute certainty that the Obama Justice Department will investigate and prosecute this latest crime – and criminal – to the maximum extent of the law, those that want to, like Bush, demonize dissent itself are not going to get much rhetorical backing from the President.

    The whole of the right will be tarred with this brush, whether they deserve it or not.
    I have argued (along with others) that inflamatory talkradio hosts are handing out free ammo to your enemies.
    Do you have a message?
    Your SNR is very low…..all I can hear is Beck and Rush and the Anger Whiggas.

    wheeler's cat (483126)

  47. Now, there’s a new target: Talk radio.

    “The Michael Savages of the world cause this kind of violence and, as much as we love free speech, we must put an end to this kind of incitement and inteolerance! This is America, not Nazi Germany”

    Or some such.

    Kevin Murphy (0b2493)

  48. w.c–

    Not my point, and you know it. The point is that blaming a whole viewpoint for a deranged individual is stupid, and if it is wrong in the Unabomber case, it’s wrong here.

    Kevin Murphy (0b2493)

  49. As far as what you hear in my posts, wc, the noise is in your ears, not my speech. I don’t even listen to those guys.

    Kevin Murphy (0b2493)

  50. It is a huge stretch to call this an act of terrorism.

    SGT Ted (c47cc2)

  51. Reviled, you say? Talk about overheated rhetoric, you sound like Olberman on one of his typically – unhinged rants, or even worse, Errorstein. The only people who truly reviled Bush were the nutbags from the Left – the rest didn’t agree with his policies near the end of his second term. Hardly evidence of your characterization.

    “Reviled” isn’t overheated in the least. I felt about him the same way certain conservatives feel about Obama, i.e. revulsion. People like the commenter I responded to don’t understand what it’s like to belong to the party on the outside looking in. They forget how they felt about Clinton — how they decided that, amidst great prosperity, he must be impeached because he lied about a hummer — and so they think that their feelings about Obama are both culturally unique (i.e. unlike what liberals felt about Bush) and historically unprecedented (i.e. ignoring how they felt about Clinton).

    And they’re wrong. The way that commenter feels about Obama? Myself a good half of the country felt that way about Bush.

    SEK (072055)

  52. Democrats reviled Bush because of Florida and never gave him a chance. They were robbed, you see.

    Not only did the rank-and-file of the Democrat Party revile hi, they HOPED HE’D FAIL. And the DP itself did everything in its power to MAKE SURE Bush would fail.

    Yet, the current President sees all criticism (e.g. Fox News) as beyond the pale.

    Kevin Murphy (0b2493)

  53. It doesn’t matter that it was one deranged individual – it’s the always hoped for ammunition of the pro-abortion crowd to make it a collective validation that all pro-lifers are a deranged group of people who continually deny others their right to choose. And now Dr. Tiller has been denied his right to choose life. It’s all the left needs to up their game.

    They’re going to do that anyway. This changes nothing in that regard, except they might be more shrill for a time.

    This might be considered apples & oranges, but when they express remorse for all the post-Prop 8 harassment against Christians & conservatives; when they apologize for all the babies Tiller killed in cold blood, maybe I’ll consider some remorse here.

    If & when, but not until.

    Darth Venomous (061378)

  54. SEK,

    I understand how people can look at things in different ways. For instance, to me, what Clinton did wrong is that he lied under oath. That may be a non-issue in your world but it’s a very big issue in mine.

    DRJ (2901e6)

  55. A horrendous act cannot be justified. It is unlikely that such an incident would have occurred had the pro-abortion, left-wing nuts advocated reasonable and measured legislation forbidding late term abortions.

    dave christensen (d4868a)

  56. That’s just whacky, dave christensen.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  57. A horrendous act cannot be justified. It is unlikely that such an incident would have occurred had the pro-abortion, left-wing nuts advocated reasonable and measured legislation forbidding late term abortions.

    I disagree with your conclusion. I think that for you to be correct there would have been many more murders by mainstream conservatives.
    the people who kill like this shouldn’t be thought of as representatives of either of the two major parties. they are dangerous nuts first and foremost.

    voiceofreason2 (11db5e)

  58. “George Tiller, a Wichita doctor who was one of the few doctors in the nation to perform late-term abortions, was shot to death on Sunday as he attended church”

    The guy was murdered whle he was attending church?

    Death penalty time.

    Dave Surls (16b4a7)

  59. Wow what nonsense. So if a vet is involved in a murder this validates the description of vets as terrorists?

    If someone murdered the head of an extermination camp would I be sorry? This is just another late term abortion. What kind of animal makes a living of killing babies?

    Hope he enjoys where he is going. I am sure the women’s right to use their bodies will have a very sympathetic jury among all those aborted babies.

    Thomas Jackson (8ffd46)

  60. Thanks SPQR. My view vindicated.

    dave christensen (d4868a)

  61. “Reviled” isn’t overheated in the least. I felt about him the same way certain conservatives feel about Obama, i.e. revulsion.

    But you fail to see the difference regarding what you personally feel as opposed to others who didn’t agree with Bush’s policies, yet weren’t consumed with hatred for the man himself. That’s an important difference, and it’s unfortunate that you don’t see that reality.

    I don’t hate Obama, and I didn’t hate Clinton – but do I oppose many of Obama’s policies? You betcha, but if I took your blanket statement I must hate then both with a passion on a personal level. This is the problem we see with much of the political discourse right now, and I don’t think that Obama’s churlishness and ridiculously thin – skinned responses to anyone who opposes his policies isn’t helping the matter. Say what you will about Bush, he never denigrated the nutbags who called him BushHitler/murderer on a daily basis. In fact, he always said that they had every right to protest his policies – would that Obama could show at least a semblance of the same class.

    Dmac (1ddf7e)

  62. Translation: The President’s only “divisive” when my team’s not in power.

    Need I remind you that Bush was reviled by 50 percent of the country. How is that not divisive? Because it looks to me like it’s the country, only divided.

    Nope. That dog won’t hunt. It’s a safe bet to call Barack Obama divisive. Although you might be right if I also called him racist, corrupt, narcissistic and dangerous.

    Party… Dems? Joe Biden has no ties to the Chicago thugocracy or radical black theology, which makes him more independent than BHo. Hopefully that highlights that my contempt is reserved for Obama and the financiers who installed him, along with his associates, his IL past, his power grab, naming czars, buying off GE for $2 Trillion in green money, disabling credit cards, promising transparency yet yanking every conceivable means of WH transparency. You and many of us agree: Bush disappointed a lot of people. But that’s the difference you’ll see… not one critical remark for Obama by the cult. Yet conservatives have not walked lockstep for any ONE politician, even now.

    Vermont Neighbor (efb5a9)

  63. Dana,
    Bradley, it’s disappointing that you reduce my statement to inflammatory rhetoric and deem to make a judgement as to the appropriateness of it under the circumstances. I thought more highly of you than that, and would have hoped you would also of me considering we have known each other for quite some time.

    You know I think the world of you, but . . . how can you deny that comparing abortion to slavery and the Holocaust is inflammatory?

    My point in making my statement was in response to your statement that abortion is legal, as if that settles the abortion issue.

    Here is what I wrote:
    Abortion is not murder under the law. That is your personal belief. Many people share your belief, many people don’t.

    That is not an attempt to settle the abortion issue. In fact, I specifically recognized there was disagreement on the subject. My point was — and I can do no better than repeat it — that abortion is not murder under the law. You would like to change that, but as of now, it is not murder.

    And that statement was made in response to your flat declaration that abortion is murder:
    And yet it goes without saying that this does not change the fact that the murders Dr. Tiller committed were just as heinous, deplorable and wrong as he himself denied the right to life to untold numbers of babies.

    My point was that there have been matters in our history that were considered legal but certainly not morally correct and eventually, became illegal.

    That is certainly true, but you said it more dramatically. If likening something to slavery and the Holocaust is not inflammatory, then nothing is. And when you bring in the Holocaust, which is part of German history, not our history, that’s a Godwin.

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (0ea407)

  64. dave christensen, evidently you don’t have a dictionary. That is not what “vindicated” means.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  65. “Where was leftist outrage over the murder of Theo Van Gogh, slain in the streets of tolerant Holland. “

    Why was rightest outrage when Matthew Shepherd was tied to a fence and beaten to death.

    Oh, I’m sorry, that was “a hoax,” wasn’t it?

    David Ehrenstein (3da226)

  66. Just two-and-a-half years ago, Dr. Tiller was targeted with the usual vitriol by Fox News talker Bill O’Reilly, who falsely accused the doctor of performing late term abortions – legal to protect the health of the mother

    This is a typical lie by a troll. Tiller was extremely controversial because he boasted about the number of late term abortions he did, some estimates are as high as 60,000. His recent acquittal probably led some poor unhinged person to do this. He aborted everyone who came to him and did abortions of viable fetuses every day. He was probably the worst example of a professional abortionist in the country. Killing him was foolish if done in a calculated manner. I suspect it was done by a deranged person. Or it was a personal matter unrelated to abortion, admittedly less likely.

    Mike K (2cf494)

  67. This is the problem we see with much of the political discourse right now, and I don’t think that Obama’s churlishness and ridiculously thin – skinned responses to anyone who opposes his policies isn’t helping the matter. Say what you will about Bush, he never denigrated the nutbags who called him BushHitler/murderer on a daily basis. In fact, he always said that they had every right to protest his policies – would that Obama could show at least a semblance of the same class.

    That’s on point for me.

    Vermont Neighbor (efb5a9)

  68. But Bushitler is evil, so he has no right to complain about protests!

    By holy contrast, the Obamessiah is working for our ultimate good, so any criticism of him or his policies is by definition an evil that must be stamped out.

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (0ea407)

  69. Patterico:

    I agree with SEK: assuming (and we don’t know this yet) that the doctor was targeted because of his profession, this is terrorism — and it’s quite effective.

    No, we don’t know for certain yet, but given that it is the sixth anniversary of Eric Rudolph’s capture, I have a hard time imagining it was random.

    fishbane (8b0d61)

  70. Curiously, according to figures that have recently appeared in the news, abortions are down — and out-of-wedlock births up.

    Good. I’ll take a baby being born to a single or unmarried parent over one being murdered any day of the week.

    Meanwhile, “Wheeler’s Cat”, given that extremists who support bombing police stations and murdering military members are allowed to teach public school children, a la Bill Ayers, without being accused of causing violence, it seems odd that radio talk show hosts are singled out. But that’s probably because Obama and the Left want to destroy the latter and support and endorse the former.

    North Dallas Thirty (7b12d9)

  71. Who knows who did this. I am willing to bet this guy made all kinds of enemies. If he was willing to screw over babies he would screw over anyone . So yes let us withhold judgment. AND EVEN if it turns out to be someONE in the anti abortion movement it is just ONE person

    j (ffafb5)

  72. [...] The news story is linked here by Stop the ACLU, Sweetness and Light and Patterico’s Pontifications. [...]

    Is the murder of abortion-performing doctors like George Tiller morally wrong? « Wintery Knight Blog (bd1ac8)

  73. This baby killing guy may have been in church but unless I’ve missed something like “I’ve found Christ and accepted Him as my Savior. I was wrong to provide abortions to all those women and I killed so many babies I can’t count them all”, he was no Christian.

    I don’t know what caused this guy to wack the murdering doctor or why he chose the church to do it in. I do know that two wrongs don’t make a right. He should have let the courts take care of him. But he probably didn’t trust the lawyers (go figure). Or perhaps he felt that this would be as acceptable as a late term abortion. Some people are just not stable, in case you haven’t noticed.

    Unfortunately the lefties will try to make this guy a martyr in order to persecute us pro-lifers. Good luck with that.

    PatriotRider (37b91c)

  74. Whoever did this is a fool. Not only does this hurt the anti-abortion cause and go against Christian teachings, but it validates the recent report warning of conservative domestic terrorists.

    Um, yeah. And the shooter also TOOK A HUMAN LIFE. Guess you forgot about that little aspect.

    nordstrom (964361)

  75. I am saying how this will be percieved and exploited.
    AllahP can’t even put up a thread on it cuz it will just fill up with hateful ugly comments about Dr. Tiller. Kinda like here.
    You always become what you most despise I guess.
    Losing has transformed the rightside commentariat into daily kos.
    The vitriol is absolutely equivalent.

    Thing is, I think this will set the pro-life cause back 10 years. The left will use this to validate the DHS report, and inflame moderates against the pro-life movement.
    In ten years the J-womb will be done and we’ll have operational ectogenesis. Pro-life will be just over, a movement without a cause. Any fetuses that get aborted can just be gestated in one of our swell new Bene Tleilax host-womb-vats.
    Problem solved!

    wheeler's cat (483126)

  76. Nordstrom,

    I don’t know if you read my posts often but I’m a law-and-order type who deplores murder. I can’t imagine the heartache and terror this family feels, and I feel sorry for them on a personal level. However, when it comes to blogging, I can’t recall any posts on killings that didn’t involve some larger issue. For example, the Joe Horn case raised questions about self-defense and this case raises issues about abortion and the public perception of domestic threats. Just because that’s my focus here doesn’t mean I’m insensitive to the personal tragedy this case represents.

    DRJ (2901e6)

  77. Yes, Dr. Tiller will be made into a martyr to smear all who oppose abortion as hateful extremists. It’s already happening.

    Characterizing Tiller and others who perform abortions as “murderers” committing a Holocaust only helps this demonization process. If you tell people abortion is like the Holocaust, someone is going to act on that belief. After all, who aware of Hitler’s evil wouldn’t have turned down the chance to kill him?

    Operation Rescue made the proper reply to the killing.

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (0ea407)

  78. Here’s the perfect proof of how utterly whacked the pro-choice side is, and the intellectual depths to which they will plummet:

    His accomplices know they have blood on their hands, which might explain why they were quick to issue statements today expressing disapproval of Tiller’s murder.

    Among them, the anti-abortion group Operation Rescue.

    You see? There is no possible position for an anti-choice individual to take. Either speak against those who speak against pro-choicers, or you are not to be allowed to condemn any harm that befalls a pro-choicer.

    Why haven’t even the radical Islamists figured this out? When Americans challenge those in the Religion of Peace who have failed to condemn (approx. 99%), to this day, the attacks of 9/11, the RI’s now have the perfect response, courtesy of the pro-choice movement.

    http://primebuzz.kcstar.com/?q=node/18662

    Ed from SFV (adfac7)

  79. http://www.christiannewswire.com/news/8967610531.html
    Randall Terry
    “George Tiller was a mass-murderer. We grieve for him that he did not have time to properly prepare his soul to face God. [Not that he's been murdered but that he didn't have time to pray first?] I am more concerned that the Obama Administration will use Tiller’s killing to intimidate pro-lifers into surrendering our most effective rhetoric and actions. Abortion is still murder. And we still must call abortion by its proper name; murder. Those men and women who slaughter the unborn are murderers according to the Law of God. We must continue to expose them in our communities and peacefully protest them at their offices and homes, and yes, even their churches.”

    duvel (63f90e)

  80. Is Randall Terry still affiliated with Operation Rescue? I thought they had parted ways.

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (0ea407)

  81. A point was made that late term abortions are legal. So what? Slavery was legal too once upon a time.

    Late term abortions for birth control are obviously evil, but also obviously that doesn’t excuse an act of premeditated murder. I hope the killer eventually gets the chair.

    Finally it’s interesting to note, this murder reinforces that laws banning firearm possession in churches are having the usual unintended consequences, of providing assassins the perfect place to find a room full of helpless targets.

    Brad (99723e)

  82. This is bad bad news.

    gp (e3032f)

  83. Dana & BJF – Just a comment on the disagreement between the two of you.

    BJF, your beef with Dana was that she was being dramatic? Seriously? Comparing the guys at Baskin Robbins who don’t give you enough jimmies on your ice cream to Nazis is a Godwin. Comparing the deaths of millions to the deaths of millions…NOT a Godwin. It’s the one time you can actually compare the flipping Nazis to anything appropriately. As Mike K. mentioned earlier – the abortion doctor in question admits to killing thousands of babies. While I’ve known Dr. K I’ve never known him to make outrageous and exagerated claims. If he says estimates of late-term abortions performed are in the tens of thousands, I’d say that it is appropriate to liken the doctor to Mengele. The doctor personally slaughtered tens of thousands of viable fetuses – what isn’t totally evil about that? How is that not actually like what the Nazis did? Color me baffled.

    Vivian Louise (c0f830)

  84. “What kind of animal makes a living of killing babies?”

    You tell me. We trained Central American soliders how to rip open pregnant women tear our the fetus and ram it on the end of their bayonets at our “School For the Americas.”

    David Ehrenstein (3da226)

  85. http://womensissues.about.com/b/2008/10/17/as-mccain-belittles-health-of-a-woman-and-abortion-these-three-know-better.htm

    “All three women told legislators they owed their health to late-term abortions and that a continuation of their doomed pregnancies posed grave health risks such as stroke, paralysis, infertility or even death….Watts, Stella and Wilson point out that in virtually all cases, late-term abortions are the only way to respond to unanticipated complications: the death of the fetus inside the womb, problems that mean the fetus can’t live outside the womb, or serious threats to the mother’s health.”

    Late term abortions: frequency in the US?
    http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/ib14.html

    duvel (62b020)

  86. “Specializing in Late Abortions for Fetal Disorders”
    And he’s betting getting death threats for years.

    http://coloradoindependent.com/30017/late-term-abortion-doctor-decries-tiller-killing-this-is-a-fascist-movement

    The doctor is right about the fascism.

    Duvel (63f90e)

  87. Whoever did this is a fool. Not only does this hurt the anti-abortion cause and go against Christian teachings, but it validates the recent report warning of conservative domestic terrorists.

    Um, yeah. And the shooter also TOOK A HUMAN LIFE. Guess you forgot about that little aspect.

    Comment by nordstrom — 5/31/2009 @ 4:43 pm

    Nordstrom

    What do you think the words go against Christian teachings refer to?

    Terry Gain (6b2a64)

  88. Vivian Louise,
    BJF, your beef with Dana was that she was being dramatic? Seriously?

    You know perfectly well what my beef was, and that it was not about being “dramatic”.

    Comparing the deaths of millions to the deaths of millions…NOT a Godwin. It’s the one time you can actually compare the flipping Nazis to anything appropriately.

    If you can’t discuss abortion without making Nazi analogies, then so much the worse for the strength of your position. Comparing something to the Nazis is not evidence. Your argument should stand on its own merits.

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (0ea407)

  89. Brother Fikes wrote:

    You know I think the world of you (the better looking Dana), but . . . how can you deny that comparing abortion to slavery and the Holocaust is inflammatory?

    I’d call it minimizing: abortion in this country alone has slaughtered more innocent people than were ever killed in the Holocaust.

    I’d compare Dr Tiller’s death to that of Antwun Parker: it was wrong to murder him, but it’s difficult for me to get too upset about it.

    The Dana who doesn't like murder, whether the victim has been born yet or not (474dfc)

  90. Many-named Dana,
    I’d call it minimizing: abortion in this country alone has slaughtered more innocent people than were ever killed in the Holocaust.

    Assertion is not proof, and you also lose on a Godwin.

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (0ea407)

  91. You know I think the world of you, but . . . how can you deny that comparing abortion to slavery and the Holocaust is inflammatory?

    BJF, thank you…but I really don’t give a rat’s ass if anyone sees comparing slavery and the Holocaust to abortion as inflammatory. It doesn’t move me one bit. Claim Godwin’s, claim rhetoric, claim whatever. I don’t care. And the reason I don’t care is because all the way down to the bone I believe abortion to be such a heinous and despicable act that it is no problem and even reasonable to liken it to evils that have been allowable, permissible and even lawful throughout history, whether in or out of our country because human life, no matter whose and no matter where, is simply that sacred.

    To conveniently claim Godwin or rhetoric is also to conveniently allow oneself to be able to ignore what may be something with validity and meaning.

    Dana (aedf1d)

  92. Watts, Stella and Wilson point out that in virtually all cases, late-term abortions are the only way to respond to unanticipated complications: the death of the fetus inside the womb, problems that mean the fetus can’t live outside the womb, or serious threats to the mother’s health.”

    This is nonsense. Even the OBGYN societies, which like all medical associations, tend to support abortion rights for complex reasons, will not say that D&X (the technical name) is medically necessary in any but rare cases. The health of the mother loophole has been used to prevent ANY attempt to rein in this infanticide.

    The only instance I know of where D&X might be needed would something like hydatidiform mole (a malignant placenta) but I have never heard of a case prior to delivery and most are associated with defective, non-viable fetuses. With a full term fetus, delivery by induced labor or a c-section would be preferable.

    Mike K (2cf494)

  93. Hello Dana,
    I’m glad you explained yourself. (Not that you ever have trouble doing so).

    I can suggest one reason from your perspective for going easy on the Holocaust comparison: It only works with those who already agree with you. If you’re going to persuade others that abortion is wrong and must be banned, comparing it to slavery and the Holocaust is a non-starter. To those who don’t already agree, it just looks shrill and extreme. And if Tiller’s slayer starts to talk in those terms in his defense . . . well, I hope you can see the problem. That is why I said Operation Rescue had the proper response. Operation Rescue avoided what, in my opinion, is inflammatory language.

    From my point of view, abortion is almost by definition one of those troubling subjects that can’t be neatly decided. I just don’t view a days-old embryo in the same light as a newborn baby or even a third-trimester fetus. They do not have the same capacity for consciousness or physical development.

    But if you believe on a religious basis that human life begins at conception, then that’s another matter entirely. In a secular society, however, a religious belief is not a valid reason for enacting a law.

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (0ea407)

  94. And I’ll add one other point: In this discussion of abortion, the most divisive issue of our time, those on all sides of the issue (with the exception of a couple of trolls), have been civil to those who they disagree with.

    Not bad for a crab grass blog!

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (0ea407)

  95. When reading of Tiller’s death I have the same thoughts as I did when the Supreme Court Justice who decided Roe v Wade died ( believe it was Brennan or Blackman ). I wish I could be there to hear the conversation between him and God. I imagine it begins with God saying ” I know you thought these deaths were legally right, but how could you think they were they morally right? What were you thinking? And why were you in church today? Were you making fun of me and these children?”

    I believe God will have no mercy on his soul. And that is the truest form of justice.

    Paul S (8ce79d)

  96. Dana – the reason I don’t care is because all the way down to the bone I believe abortion to be such a heinous and despicable act that it is no problem and even reasonable to liken it to evils that have been allowable, permissible and even lawful throughout history, whether in or out of our country because human life, no matter whose and no matter where, is simply that sacred.

    If that’s the case, then you need to get serious about your goals. You’ve told me your opinion of abortion, but I still don’t know what your goals are. Many people would like to be rich, but that’s not a goal. Goals are specific. What are yours?

    Do you want to see abortion made illegal? Where? All over the planet? Is illegality enough, or do you actually want to decrease the number of abortions, because the two goals aren’t the same. One involves legislation corresponding to an act, and the other involves reduction of the act. As we’ve seen in the ‘war on poverty’, legislation does not always correspond to reduction. The same could be said for the war on drugs.

    Have you assessed the validity of your goals? IOW, do you have an assessment of the percentage of the population that call themselves pro-life and the % that call themselves pro-choice? Do you believe that force can be used to stop abortions? If not, then what methods? Are there any Pro-Lifers who are also against government legislation, as I am?

    If you want change, then you have to communicate effectively – anger will not suffice, because anger is difficult to sustain without self-destruction. Unfocused anger will boomerang against you.

    Help me out here. I respect your intellect, and understand you’re upset, but I need more than that.

    Apogee (e2dc9b)

  97. Brother Fikes wrote:

    I’d call it minimizing: abortion in this country alone has slaughtered more innocent people than were ever killed in the Holocaust. (me)

    Assertion is not proof, and you also lose on a Godwin.

    Brother Fikes: Most histories of the Holocaust put the number of Jews murdered at roughly 6,000,000. The number of abortions is somewhere near 50 million, and even though there are some variations in the statistics, even the low estimates, the CDC reporting 36,856,096 legal abortions between 1970 and 2003, you’re still looking at many factors of magnitude in difference between Holocaust deaths and those performed in our nice, civilized abortion clinics.

    Depending upon what statistics you choose to use, we’re very close to the low estimate of the total number of people killed in World War II, not just the Holocaust.

    The only way you get around that is by claiming that unborn children aborted aren’t really people. Such arguments have been made by others, on a similar subject.

    The Dana who can count (474dfc)

  98. And yet it goes without saying that this does not change the fact that the murders Dr. Tiller committed were just as heinous, deplorable and wrong as he himself denied the right to life to untold numbers of babies.

    Dana,

    Please take this comment in the respectful manner in which it is intended. Without such a preface it might sound like I’m being hostile, but we go way back, and I know you’ll understand that this is not so.

    However, can you please answer me this honest question?

    If you truly believe that abortion is murder, why wouldn’t you want someone like this guy to be killed?

    Patterico (cc3b34)

  99. Why do people like duvel and wheeler’s/nishi seem to be practically gleeful, almost fetishizing this?

    JD (870a39)

  100. Bradley:

    I can suggest one reason from your perspective for going easy on the Holocaust comparison: It only works with those who already agree with you. If you’re going to persuade others that abortion is wrong and must be banned, comparing it to slavery and the Holocaust is a non-starter. To those who don’t already agree, it just looks shrill and extreme.

    I think this would be true if Dana wants to be like an attorney in a jury trial, and everyone reading this is on her jury. If that were the case, she would be very careful with her language to avoid alienating her jury.

    On the other hand, by drawing a comparison between abortion and the Holocaust, Dana has made it crystal clear she believes abortion is heinous murder. And I think clarity is preferable to consensus on threads like this, since we will never get everyone to agree on abortion.

    DRJ (2901e6)

  101. Patterico,

    One can believe that abortion is murder and still not want the abortionist killed. Especially if the murder of the abortionist is just that, a murder in its own right.

    kimsch (2ce939)

  102. Patterico – It is entirely possible to think someone is a murderer and not wish for them to be murdered.

    JD (870a39)

  103. So are we going to get a hypo on whether it was ‘worth it’ to waterboard anyone relating to this case?

    imdw (17e36e)

  104. The Dana who can count,
    The only way you get around that is by claiming that unborn children aborted aren’t really people. Such arguments have been made by others, on a similar subject.

    You’ve done it again, assuming something is proven when that’s the issue under discussion. Throwing in a numbers count on unrelated topics only convinces those who already agree with you.

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (0ea407)

  105. Brother Bradley, who I usually agree with, is right about this being the most divisive issue of our time. That is likely due to the fact that it was an issue that was taken away from the states, and the voters, and dictated from on high. Yet that is the same direction the Left wants same sex marriage to be decided. Sorry for the rambling …

    JD (870a39)

  106. Anyone who believes this isn’t an act of terrorism is ignoring the definition.
    Terrorism:the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, esp. for political purposes.
    Assuming that the suspect in custody, Scott Roeder, is the perpetrator, he was an active member of Operation Rescue, posted on their web site about confronting Dr. Tiller at his church, and had a post-it with the phone number of the organization in his car.
    He used violence to coerce other Drs from performing similar procedures for the express purpose of furthering his political beliefs.
    He should be prosecuted as a terrorist…

    Jon Hall (65dcc3)

  107. People that disagree with Jon Hall are terrorists. Holding a different view of the most divisive issue of our time makes you a terrorist. You krazy wingnuts support killers like this guy, McVeigh, and Rudolph, and the Christianist terrorist will just keep on going until they have their theocracy. Saved the drive-by’s the effort …

    JD (870a39)

  108. Dana argues passionately and consistently in regards to life at conception. It’s seems unlikely that a pro-lifer would want to determine the life span of another (the Dr.), or even justice as it’s meted out.

    Bradley wrote:

    I just don’t view a days-old embryo in the same light as a newborn baby or even a third-trimester fetus. They do not have the same capacity for consciousness or physical development.

    You, or the person affected, might be the father of that fetus. I only recently became pro-life because of the exact legislation tools being used to drop things down a slippery slope. I’m moving right.. before I was right with center leanings. Gary Graham’s pro-life essay actually pushed me to the place I was heading anyway.

    Vermont Neighbor (efb5a9)

  109. “People that disagree with Jon Hall are terrorists.”

    You are a genius.

    imdw (6eb217)

  110. DRJ,
    Dana is always crystal clear about her viewpoints. And I respect her willingness to be direct about what she believes. I hope she will continue to examine the issue.

    One of the big troubles with the “abortion-is-murder” argument was pointed out by Patterico: If you really believe it’s murder, then Tiller was a mass murderer who would continue to commit mass murder. In that case, one would logically have to approve of his killing, whether legally or not.

    Those who kill abortion doctors can, with some justification, say they’re being truer to their beliefs than those who say abortion is murder but don’t kill the abortion doctors. But when we accept that reasoning, we accept that people can be the judge of which laws they’ll obey and which ones they’ll violate. When everyone can do that, it amounts to having no laws at all.

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (0ea407)

  111. “If you truly believe that abortion is murder, why wouldn’t you want someone like this guy to be killed?”

    Can’t very well have people running around killing other people for doing things that are perfectly legal.

    That ain’t going to work.

    Dave Surls (49742a)

  112. “People that disagree with Jon Hall are terrorists.”

    You have a special kind of genius. Anyone ever call you that? “Special”?

    imdw (5f60be)

  113. imdw, with your contribution above in #101, I think you have no place criticizing others.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  114. Yet that is the same direction the Left wants same sex marriage to be decided.

    And I also think that’s wrong, although I support same-sex marriage. In particular, the LA Times is running propaganda stories on the subject. How embarrassing to be on the same side as them.

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (0ea407)

  115. You have a special kind of genius. Anyone ever call you that? “Special”?
    Comment by imdw — 5/31/2009 @ 7:27 pm

    Fess up, you’re one of President Obama’s speechwriters, aren’t you?

    Stashiu3 (460dc1)

  116. You do not “logically” have to approve of this murder, if you believe that he was a murderer. That was beneath you, Brother Bradley. Some people might, just might, believe that murder is wrong no matter who the victim is. That idea should not be so difficult to understand.

    Imdw – we need to hear your chirping like we all need a root canal.

    JD (870a39)

  117. He used violence to coerce other Drs from performing similar procedures for the express purpose of furthering his political beliefs.

    Well, the Black Panthers did the same at those Pennsylvania polling booths. Weapons included. And we know what the courts thought of that. Sorry, may be off topic. But the Obama crew reports to no one in how they coerce and bully to ram their tactics in place. That lawsuit by Tam Lauria(?). Dropped, due to heavy political and legal costs.

    Now back to the topic at hand. The unborn against Obama? A dangerous situation.

    Vermont Neighbor (efb5a9)

  118. Why is this bad? John Brown was no particular friend of the abolition movement. Would you people please read Lincoln’s Lyceum Address for goodness sakes?

    Fritz (05ef42)

  119. If you really believe it’s murder, then Tiller was a mass murderer who would continue to commit mass murder. In that case, one would logically have to approve of his killing, whether legally or not.

    I do not agree with your conclusion. It does not logically follow that if one believes abortion is murder that one would approve of the abortionist’s killing.

    Murder is murder. I don’t approve of anyone’s murder, whether the victim is born or unborn. Whether that victim is totally innocent, or innocent of crimes as defined by the laws of man, or the laws of God. Even if the victim is guilty of the violating the laws of man or God, it does not logically follow that I approve of that murder.

    kimsch (2ce939)

  120. http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/5/31/737357/–Suspect-Identified-in-Tiller-Assassination

    The Lawrence Journal-World and News relays that Kansas City station KMBC reported a post-it note with a phone number for Operation Rescue in his car at the time of his arrest.

    So a bombmaker, tax protester, member of the “sovereignity” movement, anti-abortion zealot and Operation Rescue member:

    TERRORIST

    duvel (62b020)

  121. I cannot concieve of anyone who thinks abortion is a wonderful thing. The phrase “necessary evil” springs to mind, but even that’s far too glib. Unwanted pregnancies simply shouldn’t happen. If proper precautions are taken such pregnacies wouldn’t occur.

    This of course would leave “unwanted pregnancy” under the rubric of “in cases of rape or incest or to save the life of the mother,” which I trust most of us agree is acceptable. But life is not perfect.

    The principle parties anti-abortion laws affect are poor women. Wealthy woman have ALWAYS had the ability to get an abortion, either through a well-paid-off professional or by going to some foreign clime where it’s legal.

    Meanwhile there’s The O’Reilley Factor.

    David Ehrenstein (3da226)

  122. duvel, ever look to see what phone numbers the Unabomber had?

    Its a stupid argument.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  123. Patterico – It is entirely possible to think someone is a murderer and not wish for them to be murdered.

    This is true. However, usually, one can trust in the law to take care of the matter and lock the person up for life. Also, you don’t know that the person will murder again.

    But if you believe someone is committing murders day in and day out, and you know that the law will do nothing about it, it seems much more likely that you’d support the killing of that person.

    It should be clear that I don’t support this view, but then, I don’t believe abortion is murder. I’m interested in exploring the viewpoints of those who do.

    If you liken such a person to Hitler (and why wouldn’t you, if you think abortion really is murder?), wouldn’t you want to save thousands of lives by killing that person?

    Serious question.

    Patterico (cc3b34)

  124. JD,
    You do not “logically” have to approve of this murder, if you believe that he was a murderer. That was beneath you, Brother Bradley. Some people might, just might, believe that murder is wrong no matter who the victim is. That idea should not be so difficult to understand.

    It’s not just murder that’s being alleged; two people here have likened abortion to the Holocaust, a genocide. That’s quite a different kettle of fish than a garden-variety murder. Would they or you have objected to attempts to kill those running the death camps because “murder is wrong, no matter who the victim is?”

    And if you object to the question, please remember it’s their analogy, not mine.

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (0ea407)

  125. Bradley,

    I don’t think they are being truer to their beliefs but perhaps they are being truer to your interpretation of their beliefs. You and Patterico are ultimately arguing these issues: Is there a duty to come to the assistance of a third party (e.g., an unborn child) whose life is in peril? Does that duty include killing the abortion doctor if that’s the only way to stop the abortion?

    I think God wants us to do everything we can legally and morally do to help others, but that doesn’t include risking our own souls by deciding to murder an abortion doctor. We can protest, urge pregnant mothers not to abort, and pray, but we can’t murder in His name.

    Of course, that calls into question any killings, including those done in self-defense and as a part of capital punishment. Like abortion, killing in self-defense and capital punishment are legal but that doesn’t make them moral. Maybe it’s the lawyer in me but on these issues I believe it’s a good compromise to pray for God’s guidance and follow man’s laws.

    DRJ (2901e6)

  126. Patterico,

    Murder is murder. It’s not up to me to end a murderer’s life. Period.

    kimsch (2ce939)

  127. “If you really believe it’s murder, then Tiller was a mass murderer who would continue to commit mass murder. In that case, one would logically have to approve of his killing, whether legally or not.”

    Bradley – The above excerpt from #107 is really beneath you.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  128. I’d much rather have his type of business outlawed than have him dead. He killed babies legally from a secular standpoint but I believe he was morally bankrupt. And, just like The One, going to church didn’t make him a Christian. Biblically there is no way a Christian could justify murdering the innocent. Period.

    So Mr. Tiller fits in well on a list all the mass murderers of history.

    PatriotRider (37b91c)

  129. I also enjoyed SEK’s visit to show us his mind reading prowess to lecture everybody on how we forgot what it felt like to be conservatives when Clinton was in the White House and what the real issue in his impeachment was, never mind the endless list of other scandals during his tenure. Nothing like a fresh dose of imagined intellectual superiority on a Sunday evening to start the week.

    DON’T YOU KNOW WHO SEK THINKS HE IS?

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  130. daleyrocks – Bradley – The above excerpt from #107 is really beneath you.

    If so, is Patterico’s 7:52pm beneath him? Because it seems pretty similar.
    If you liken such a person to Hitler (and why wouldn’t you, if you think abortion really is murder?), wouldn’t you want to save thousands of lives by killing that person?
    Serious question.

    Apogee (e2dc9b)

  131. I have a classmate who is a OB GYN in Oregon who found his name and address posted on an anti-abortion web site. I have no sympathy for the people who do this. However, Tiller was a very visible abortion supporter who seemed to revel in his notoriety. This one is pretty close to a “true, true and unrelated” answer. I am pro-choice but believe the right ends at 20 weeks. I also believe that many women who have had abortions come to the same conclusion later and they get no help from the pro-abortion zealots.

    Mike K (2cf494)

  132. Comment by DRJ — 5/31/2009 @ 7:55 pm-Maybe it’s the lawyer in me but on these issues I believe it’s a good compromise to pray for God’s guidance and follow man’s laws.

    If we had more lawyers that believed this way the system wouldn’t be broke. And I might even like lawyers. Alas…..

    PatriotRider (37b91c)

  133. DRJ,
    I don’t think they are being truer to their beliefs but perhaps they are being truer to your interpretation of their beliefs.
    They’ve said abortion is murder, and likened it to the Holocaust. That’s not an interpretation. It’s in their comments. Dana Of Many Names actually said likening abortion to the Holocaust is “minimizing” abortion.

    Maybe it’s the lawyer in me but on these issues I believe it’s a good compromise to pray for God’s assistance and follow man’s laws.
    The Holocaust was performed according to man’s laws, in this case Nazi laws. So if you think abortion is an evil equal to the Holocaust, and you are committed to following man’s laws, what is the principle that would allow for killing Nazis, and not abortion doctors?

    As with Patterico, this is a serious question. Some people have likened abortion with nazi genocide; I want to see how far they carry the analogy.

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (0ea407)

  134. PatriotRider – If we had more lawyers that believed this way…

    If we had more DRJ’s… come to think of it, she is my main argument in favor of human cloning.

    Apogee (e2dc9b)

  135. If you liken such a person to Hitler (and why wouldn’t you, if you think abortion really is murder?), wouldn’t you want to save thousands of lives by killing that person?

    Why can’t we just bribe the licensing board to revoke his license first? Or elect a President who will appoint anti-abortions judges? And a Senate who will confirm them? Killing people as a first resort is a bad habit.

    nk (157acd)

  136. I like that . . . More DRJs, more justice . . . and a higher tone to the conversation.

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (0ea407)

  137. I’ll caution everyone (and I think we’re doing pretty well so far) to be extra respectful and polite while conducting this conversation about such an emotional issue.

    I have a friend who believes abortion is murder and he’s quite frank: he believes it would be morally correct to kill the abortion doctor. He just doesn’t have the guts to do it.

    That’s a consistent view.

    To the people who say abortion is murder, but that you wouldn’t murder this fellow: let me ask another question: if you had Osama or another top al Qaeda terrorist in your sights, would you drop the bomb on him?

    If yes to that, but no to killing the abortion doctor, what’s the difference?

    Again, I believe abortion is wrong, and becomes more and more wrong the closer you get to live birth. But I don’t see it as murder, at least not in the early stages. When you get to late-term abortions, things start to get more black and white.

    Patterico (cc3b34)

  138. nk – Why can’t we just bribe the licensing board to revoke his license first?

    You are from Illinois.

    Apogee (e2dc9b)

  139. I guess I must be one of those whacky pro-abortionists. To me, the baby lives when it breathes, and not before; hence, properly done abortion can’t be murder.

    Dana, you’re welcome to your opinions and beliefs, but I do not believe you are entitled to compel others to act as if they have your beliefs, either by force or by law.

    Hopefully, his family won’t be reading this; they have my prayers and condolences.

    htom (412a17)

  140. nk actually made a very reasonable suggestion for those who oppose abortion:

    Or elect a President who will appoint anti-abortions judges? And a Senate who will confirm them?

    IOW, we have a democracy that allows the people to make such determinations. Short-term, judges may go against the popular will. In the long run, the consistently expressed will of the people ultimately prevails.

    For those of you who liken abortion to slavery, a similar compromise was made about slavery to get the Constitution approved. It was the best we could have achieved at the time without destroying the Union.

    In our system, the decision doesn’t always go our way. Accepting that fact is the price of democracy.

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (0ea407)

  141. Patterico,

    If I were still in the military and had Osama or another top Al Qaeda in my sights, I wouldn’t have any trouble pulling the trigger or dropping the bomb. I’d be in the military with an enemy of the People of the United States in range.

    It’s quite different with Dr. Tiller. He was never listed as an enemy of the People and the United States was not at war with him (and his people).

    The laws of Man and God. Murder is against both.

    kimsch (2ce939)

  142. “Why can’t we just bribe the licensing board to revoke his license first? Or elect a President who will appoint anti-abortions judges? And a Senate who will confirm them? Killing people as a first resort is a bad habit.”

    The anti-choicers have been throwing a lot against this guy.

    imdw (17e36e)

  143. Democrats reviled Bush because of Florida and never gave him a chance.

    Not that it’s relevant anymore, but Democrats reviled Bush because he ran as a moderate “compassionate conservative” and was nothing of the sort, implementing policies that ranged from stupid (tax cuts for the wealthy) to evil (misguided war in Iraq). I’m not particularly keen to debate those policies right now — in fact, I refuse to — I’m merely bringing them up because they’re part of the laundry list of complaints that led liberals to revile Bush.

    Yet, the current President sees all criticism (e.g. Fox News) as beyond the pale.

    That’s why he sent the National Guard to shut down the Tea Parties and advocated the burning of Ann Coulter’s books — except he didn’t do that.

    For instance, to me, what Clinton did wrong is that he lied under oath.

    About a blow job, DRJ, at the tail end of a fishing expedition that began with something about real estate and ended up being about a blow job. Lying under oath is wrong, absolutely, but he never should’ve been asked those questions while under oath, given the “scope” of the independent prosecution. Again, not wanting to rehash this, but for the Ralph Reed wing of the Republican Party in the ’90s, it was all about getting Clinton any way they could, no matter how absurd.

    For the record, I think people might be misunderstanding my larger point here. It’s not that people who bemoan the Obama administration belong to the lunatic fringe of the conservative party, but the opposite: what they see as excessive divisiveness is simply the product of feeling politically impotent under an administration they believe is hostile to their interests. Which is why I said, “Believe you me, I understand, I’ve been there.”

    But you fail to see the difference regarding what you personally feel as opposed to others who didn’t agree with Bush’s policies, yet weren’t consumed with hatred for the man himself. That’s an important difference, and it’s unfortunate that you don’t see that reality.

    What’s odd about this conversation is that normally it’s the other way around: people claiming the lunatic fringe of the left is obviously representative of the whole (“Look at how vulgar their comments are! That’s what the left’s like!”). I’m claiming that feelings of revulsion — feelings, not expressions, mind you — were more common than people on the right think, and I’m being met with the responses like, “Liberals didn’t hate Bush the way we hate Obama, because our hatred is unique, based upon what Obama’s doing to my beloved country.” Except, you know, it’s not unique. We were as angry and disenchanted as you are now.

    In fact, he always said that they had every right to protest his policies – would that Obama could show at least a semblance of the same class.

    Where, exactly, is Obama curtailing the freedom of speech?

    SEK (072055)

  144. I’m putting the questions to people in this thread:

    1) Do you believe killing an abortion doctor is morally justified?

    2) If you had an al Qaeda terrorist in the sights of your gun, would you pull the trigger? If you were the President and you were told one of our snipers had Osama in his sights, would you give the order to kill him?

    I’m most interested in the answers given by people who believe abortion is murder.

    Please answer the questions in that thread.

    Patterico (cc3b34)

  145. It’s quite different with Dr. Tiller. He was never listed as an enemy of the People and the United States was not at war with him (and his people).

    But if you believe abortion is murder, why *wouldn’t* he be an enemy of the people? Hasn’t he “murdered” more people than al Qaeda?

    I’m not trying to be argumentative; I’m trying to understand the distinction.

    I’d rather have it take place in the other thread, however, at this point.

    Patterico (cc3b34)

  146. “Why do people like duvel and wheeler’s/nishi seem to be practically gleeful, almost fetishizing this?”

    JD – This was a rhetorical question, was it not?

    Of course nishi and duvel are gleeful. They have ammunition with which to bach their enemies. Nishi’s mendouchousness continues apace.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  147. “If so, is Patterico’s 7:52pm beneath him? Because it seems pretty similar.”

    Bradley – He was asking a question. You were drawing a conclusion for somebody else which they have not expressed.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  148. You are from Illinois.

    Comment by Apogee — 5/31/2009 @ 8:13 pm

    You’re not kidding. There was one doctor who performed abortions, in Rockford, Winnebago County, and he and his wife were indicted for child pornography for having topless pictures of their two-year old daughter (a little while back when we still used film that had to be processed).

    nk (157acd)

  149. SEK<
    About a blow job, DRJ, at the tail end of a fishing expedition that began with something about real estate and ended up being about a blow job. Lying under oath is wrong, absolutely, but he never should’ve been asked those questions while under oath, given the “scope” of the independent prosecution.

    If “lying under oath is wrong, absolutely,” then why do you go to such lengths to trivialize the matter?

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (0ea407)

  150. 141 – answered on the other thread as requested.

    kimsch (2ce939)

  151. Bradley,

    You said this:

    Those who kill abortion doctors can, with some justification, say they’re being truer to their beliefs than those who say abortion is murder but don’t kill the abortion doctors.

    In my response, I intended to convey that I don’t believe murdering the abortion doctor is true to Christian beliefs, nor can a reasonable Christian argue that is the case. Even if there are times you can legally and/or morally kill someone, it is always wrong to murder in God’s name.

    In my view, this also answers Patterico’s question about killing Osama bin Laden. I don’t think God wants us to go to war but I consider killing al Qaeda members during war as a form of self-defense. However, although I pray that God will guide us to do His will, it is never right or moral to say God wants us to win or claim we are fighting in God’s name.

    DRJ (2901e6)

  152. http://www.adl.org/mwd/cocv1n3.asp

    “July 7, Kansas: Scott Roeder is sentenced to sixteen months in state prison for parole violations following a 1996 conviction for having bomb components in his car trunk. Roeder, a sovereign citizen and tax protester, violated his parole by not filing tax returns or providing his social security number to his employer.”

    Great, it ties in tea party types with killers of abortion doctors.

    Hawkins (414d47)

  153. daleyrocks,
    Bradley – He was asking a question. You were drawing a conclusion for somebody else which they have not expressed.

    I’m not sure what you meant by that, but 8:03 was Apogee, not me.

    As for my own views, they seem to parallel Patterico’s. (I did not see his comment before posting mine). I am especially concerned with those who say abortion is like the Holocaust, (if not worse). I hope those people reconsider their choice of words, because those words can be used to justify killing.

    Now I’m going to jump over to the new thread Patterico created for such topics.

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (0ea407)

  154. “So if you think abortion is an evil equal to the Holocaust, and you are committed to following man’s laws, what is the principle that would allow for killing Nazis, and not abortion doctors?”

    Bradley – We had declared war on Germany. Have we declared war on abortion doctors? We also declared war (or its equivalent) on Al Queda, so why not kill Osama. Our country is not a dictatorship like Germany, so the vast majority of its citizens have a tendency to avoid committing felonies, including killing abortion doctors, even if they revile the practice of abortion. It’s not rocket science.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  155. DRJ,
    However, although I pray that God will guide us to do His will, it is never right or moral to say God wants us to win or claim we are fighting in God’s name.

    You sound just like Sarah Palin! And I mean that as a compliment. It’s similar to Palin’s actual statement that expressed humility, not the Dowdified version.

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (0ea407)

  156. Bradley – Sorry. You are correct. 149 should have been addressed to Apogee.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  157. daleyrocks,
    Our country is not a dictatorship like Germany, so the vast majority of its citizens have a tendency to avoid committing felonies, including killing abortion doctors, even if they revile the practice of abortion.

    That is much like the statement nk made that I quoted approvingly. It draws the proper distinction between the atrocities of the Nazis and our own form of government. I just hope those who liken abortion to the Holocaust will admit to that distinction.

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (0ea407)

  158. No worries, daleyrocks@152.

    Now over to the new thread . . .

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (0ea407)

  159. Hawkins – tea party types

    Bomb components in his car trunk? Thank goodness he never lit off any actual bombs that killed people.

    Like the President’s friend, Ayers.

    Apogee (e2dc9b)

  160. I didn’t see Patterico’s request that we respond on another thread before I posted my last comment. Feel free to move or copy it over there if you want, but I won’t be able to rejoin the discussion until tomorrow at the earliest.

    And SEK, I don’t care what the subject of the lie was. Do you know how many trivial questions are asked in courtrooms everyday? Court procedures don’t allow lawyers to ask questions that answer the ultimate legal issue of the case, so they have to ask reams of seemingly insignificant or trivial questions that together make their case. If a witness can answer with a lie and not be sanctioned for it, it is no exaggeration to say this threatens the entire system. That the lying witness was a lawyer and the President makes it infinitely more damaging.

    DRJ (2901e6)

  161. “I’m not particularly keen to debate those policies right now — in fact, I refuse to”

    SEK – Typical chickenshit. Mischaracterize the policies and then declare thread over.

    Tax cuts for the wealthy is such a hackneyed pitiful description of what occurred I’m surprised you would even try to get it past people on this blog. Try tax cuts for everybody.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  162. Bradley,

    I accept it as a compliment but I think we are both trying to obey the Third Commandment.

    DRJ (2901e6)

  163. DRJ,
    I have my own criticisms about Palin, but what she said about faith and war was entirely unobjectionable, even from my atheist point of view. She was hoping we were on God’s side, and trying not to be presumptuous.

    The ginned-up version in the media had her spouting Bin Ladeneque crusader rhetoric. That was a palpable lie and smear, to make her sound like a fanatic.

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (0ea407)

  164. “And SEK, I don’t care what the subject of the lie was.”

    DRJ – The lie was told, if I recall correctly, in connection with discovery in the Paula Jones case, which Clinton tried to delay until after he left office. If I’m correct, it was not part of the grand and vast right wing conspiracy SEK elaborates above. That lawsuit was in process before Clinton took office.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  165. daleyrocks – Our country is not a dictatorship like Germany

    Yeah, back then Hitler was busy telling people how to design cars. Nothing like today’s America.

    Later in 1933, Adolf Hitler met with Ferdinand Porsche to discuss Hitler’s idea of a volkswagen. Hitler proposed a people’s car that could carry 5 people, cruise up to 62mph, return 33mpg, and cost only 1000 Reich Marks. This was an opportunity for Porsche to push his idea of a small car foward, as was it to help Hitler get a real people’s car for the citizens of Germany.

    Apogee (e2dc9b)

  166. Killing is wrong – in both the case of Tiller’s murder of thousands of third-trimester babies, and well as in the case of the murder of Tiller himself.

    Prayers? Yes – for both the thousands of babies killed by Tiller as well as Tiller himself and his family.

    Compunction of emapthy? Hard for me to work any up for Tiller.

    Now – why should there be such a ruckus over so small a thing as the life of one murderer, when we are at war with people who want to kill our entire country?

    Seems like making a mountain out of a molehill. Literally. This is not that important.

    Thomas Jefferson (e5cbf5)

  167. To me, the baby lives when it breathes, and not before; hence, properly done abortion can’t be murder.

    You, then, have no problem. Would you set the baby that survives a late term abortion attempt in the dirty instrument room until it stops breathing ? Our president advocates that. Have you ever done an abortion ? Have you seen 20 week fetuses trying to breathe ? They’ll keep it up for quite a while.

    It’s so easy to be certain of your beliefs when they are based on no experience at all.

    Mike K (2cf494)

  168. If you’re going to persuade others that abortion is wrong and must be banned, comparing it to slavery and the Holocaust is a non-starter. To those who don’t already agree, it just looks shrill and extreme.

    Again Bradley, I guess I don’t care what it looks like as I was not attempting to persuade you as I already know we are in opposition, but rather attempting to clearly re-explain myself as I felt you too easily dismissed my point by calling up Godwin and rhetoric. If my words offended, it was without intent but the result of my stance. I can accept that we are on opposite ends of the spectrum: I believe life is sacred from day one and we are created in the image of God, and you don’t. And I too hope you will seriously examine this issue.

    Apogee @ 6:53 p.m.

    Please know I’m not upset. BJF and I go back years and this issue never fails to bring out our differences but we usually still respect each other in the morning. And don’t misread a firm, unwavering stand as anger – instead it is always with a deep sadness when this subject arises. I haven’t read through all of your questions but wanted to address this briefly and round up my thoughts re your other questions.

    If you truly believe that abortion is murder, why wouldn’t you want someone like this guy to be killed?

    Patterico, I assume nothing but the best intentions of your questions. To be consistent, if I believe murder is wrong, why would I want him murdered? The next twist would be, if I believe him to be a murderer who will continue murdering, wouldn’t I want him murdered to protect others from being murdered? I wouldn’t. I can object to one’s taking of innocent life but would I not become the very thing I loathe if I believed he should have his life taken? Would that not be hypocrisy? What would make me any different from him then?

    The question is not easy and part of me suspects I may be too weak to see through my convictions which would not surprise me. Most of us are. But I think the point is to at least have a conviction and attempt to stand on it as firmly as one can. If one doesn’t believe abortion to be murder or that what is in the womb is not life, then I think there is an void of understanding how seriously pro-lifers take this matter.

    I believe abortion is wrong, and becomes more and more wrong the closer you get to live birth. But I don’t see it as murder, at least not in the early stages. When you get to late-term abortions, things start to get more black and white.

    Why do you believe it is wrong at the later stages? If it is because it’s a life that is being killed, is that not murder? If not, why not? In the ‘early’ stages, if it’s not murder, what exactly is it?

    Serious questions.

    Dana (aedf1d)

  169. You, then, have no problem. Would you set the baby that survives a late term abortion attempt in the dirty instrument room until it stops breathing ? Our president advocates that. Have you ever done an abortion ? Have you seen 20 week fetuses trying to breathe ? They’ll keep it up for quite a while.

    It’s so easy to be certain of your beliefs when they are based on no experience at all.

    It’s very easy to be sure when you have delivered live children and held a still-borne child. Say what you want, I’m out of this thread.

    htom (412a17)

  170. To me, the baby lives when it breathes, and not before; hence, properly done abortion can’t be murder.

    I have no idea what this means. Maybe it’s best you are out of the thread. You are incoherent.

    Mike K (2cf494)

  171. Add Hawkins to the list of people that seem gleeful about this.

    JD (870a39)

  172. Something happened to that quote.

    It’s very easy to be sure when you have delivered live children and held a still-borne child. Say what you want, I’m out of this thread.

    That is the quote.

    Mike K (2cf494)

  173. JD: Not at all, if anything I’m more concerned that this guy is a “Tax protestor” in addition to now a murderer

    It’s ammo for the HuffPo types who think all conservatives are a wrong word away from taking up arms against liberals.

    Hawkins (414d47)

  174. What’s scary and pathetic (and disgusting) about people like the murderer of Tiller — likely an ultra-rightist — or the loons who try to sabotage and hurt researchers performing experiments with lab animals, or leftists who are more indignant about George Bush than Sadaam Hussein (and, in turn, view the victims of the Butcher of Baghdad as mere statistics), is they believe their sentiments rest on a foundation of humaneness, decency, kindness, humanity.

    If such people instead proclaimed their actions, choices or preferences were due to their being vicious, heartless, inhumane SOBS (or POS), I’d say they at least weren’t deluding themselves and others.

    Mark (411533)

  175. Sorry for misunderstanding your comment, Hawkins. My bad. Those people you referenced don’t really need any ammo. They believed the same prior to this happening.

    JD (870a39)

  176. Please know I’m not upset. BJF and I go back years and this issue never fails to bring out our differences but we usually still respect each other in the morning.

    I respect you this evening! :-)

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes (0ea407)

  177. Hawkins, this is a McClatchy link, but it gives background on Roeder’s history as a “Freeman” anarchist. Gateway Pundit also has a PNG of a CNN archive news bit on his arrest in 1996.

    Grim stuff, mostly, but this was creepy AND amusing –
    Roeder met a fellow named leach while visiting Tillers FIRST shooter in prison. Leach is quoted:

    “He told me about a lot of conspiracy stuff and showed me how to take the magnetic strip out of a five-dollar bill,” Leach said. “He said it was to keep the government from tracking your money.”

    SarahW (fdd722)

  178. If “lying under oath is wrong, absolutely,” then why do you go to such lengths to trivialize the matter?

    Because if you started investigating me for wire fraud, then put me under oath and asked me whether I’d ever had lascivious thoughts about Actress X, it wouldn’t matter how much I respected the legal system, I’d be appalled by your abuse of it.

    And SEK, I don’t care what the subject of the lie was. Do you know how many trivial questions are asked in courtrooms everyday? Court procedures don’t allow lawyers to ask questions that answer the ultimate legal issue of the case, so they have to ask reams of seemingly insignificant or trivial questions that together make their case. If a witness can answer with a lie and not be sanctioned for it, it is no exaggeration to say this threatens the entire system. That the lying witness was a lawyer and the President makes it infinitely more damaging.

    In a neutral setting — that is, one in which politics isn’t an issue — I absolutely agree with you. But once you have overtly partisan figures involved, well, you end up impeaching the POTUS because he lied about marital infidelity, even though the person who pressed the issue (Gingrich) was on his third marriage and, I think we can all agree, has no room to speak when it comes to matters of infidelity. Seriously, if you can’t admit, all these years later, that the Starr prosecution was partisan driven nonsense — as even Starr himself has acknowledged — then you’re not in the position to speak even quasi-objectively about popular sentiment and Obama vs. Bush.

    P.S. All these Christian debates about the viability of a fetus sound odd to Jewish ears. Because all that silliness about “Judeo-Christian values” aside, you do know what the actual, Talmudic position on abortion is, don’t you? Because if conservatives did, I doubt they’d support Israel quite so strongly as they — who am I kidding? Hypocrites would be hypocritical come what may.

    SEK (072055)

  179. Heh. There really is a conspiracy theory about the anti-counterfit strips commenter ZARGON at instructables.com warns:

    “Sep 14, 2008. 10:45 AMZargon says:
    Truth be TOLD:

    The magnetic strip is a RFID and the agents of the imperial US govmt. use it to make sure you are not taking $$$ out of the country or carrying too much, according to them, at any given time. They have hand held and walk thru scanners… think airport here… and can tell from 25′ or more how much you have in your pocket as you walk by. Big Brother in action.
    So, one redeeming quality of this instructable could be, that if you remove all the strips from all of your cash you can carry as much as you want anywhere you want, without being arrested for the innocent act of carrying your own money in your own pocket or bag, or briefcase. :-)
    Thanks… I think I’ll do that to 100 – 100 dollar bills and see if I can get through the airport security ;-D”

    (not true, in case you’re worried. S.)

    SarahW (fdd722)

  180. He told me about a lot of conspiracy stuff…

    How come nobody wants to point out his link to the truther movement? Hardly a bunch of right-wingers.

    Apogee (e2dc9b)

  181. Oh fail, SEK. He was asked about fooling around with a WH employee in context of a sexual harrassment suit brought by a campaign staff member. It was a fair depo question and he was required to answer it truthfully if he answered it at all.

    He lied in a deposition on a question germane to the lawsuit.

    SarahW (fdd722)

  182. Apogee – I’ve seen a bunch of stuff on Roeder, hadn’t seen any truther link yet. I take it you have?

    SarahW (fdd722)

  183. He was asked about fooling around with a WH employee in context of a sexual harrassment suit brought by a campaign staff member.

    No, he wasn’t. He was asked about it in the context of . . . isn’t this all public record now? I suppose some folks aren’t too keen to relive the ideologically-driven idiocy of the ’90s, but this is all out there. He was asked about who he’d fooled around with in the context of a “clump spirit”-style investigation about a real estate transaction that’d soured. (Which, I should add, might’ve involved actual shenanigans, but we’ll never know, because all attention turned to a hummer in light of the moralistic “Contract with America.”)

    Oh fail, SEK.

    Connect the dots between Whitewater and Lewinski then please . . . or better yet, don’t. Because a decade and a half later, the absurdity of it all pales in comparison to other lies told in other circumstances, ones which actually led to the deaths of thousands of American soldiers, and if you press the issue, well . . .

    SEK (072055)

  184. So what is the “actual” Talmudic position on abortion?
    The rabbi decides?

    SteveG (c99c5c)

  185. Yeah, back then Hitler was busy telling people how to design cars.

    To be fair, the car that came from that was the VW Bug, arguably one of the most successful cars made.

    Connect the dots between Whitewater and Lewinski then please

    Huh?

    The depo that Pres Clinton lied at was about sexual harassment, not Whitewater.

    Because a decade and a half later, the absurdity of it all pales in comparison to other lies told in other circumstances, ones which actually led to the deaths of thousands of American soldiers, and if you press the issue, well . . .

    I will never cease to be amused by this canard.

    Please, SEK… List for me the lies that led to the war. Please, I dare you.

    Scott Jacobs (90ff96)

  186. “Connect the dots between Whitewater and Lewinski then please”

    I don’t know what that has to do with abortion doctors getting shot, but…

    “In August 1994 Starr was appointed by a three-judge panel to continue the Whitewater investigation, replacing Robert B. Fiske, who had been appointed by the Attorney General prior to the reenactment of the Independent Counsel law. The law conferred broad investigative powers on Starr and the other independent counsels named to investigate the administration, including the right to subpoena nearly anyone who might have relevant information. Starr would later receive authority to conduct additional investigations, including the firing of White House Travel Office personnel, potential political abuse of confidential FBI files,[7], Madison Guaranty, Rose Law Firm, Paula Jones law suit and, most notoriously, possible perjury and obstruction of justice to cover up President Clinton’s sexual relationship with Monica Lewinsky.”–wiki

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_Starr#Time_as_Independent_Counsel

    Dots connected.

    Dave Surls (49742a)

  187. So what is the “actual” Talmudic position on abortion?

    Steve, Google is your friend. Know, though, that Jews are an argumentative bunch, and that the Talmudic position on anything’s likely to be fraught with disagreement, and that babies might be sliced in halves, quarters, and gruesome &c…

    Please, SEK… List for me the lies that led to the war. Please, I dare you.

    I’m not even going to dignify this with a response. Put down the fucking talking points and deal with reality for a second, if you can.

    If you’d like to me to present the evidence that Powell thought legit but was, as Powell himself later learned, not the least legit, I can do that. Honestly, I’m almost sorta kinda alright with an administration attacking a country that it knows, but can’t prove, has stockpiled weapons of mass destruction . . . but that’s not what we’re dealing with here. What we have here is a case in which evidence was manufactured in order to justify a war against an enemy that was, admittedly, evil, but which wasn’t the evil enemy we should’ve been retaliating against if we wanted to make the world safer for Americans. You can blather on about every other thing until your jaws unhinge, but you’ll never be able to convince anyone with half a brain that the way to ensure the safety of Americans at home or abroad was to wage a war against a dictator who had nothing to do with anything whatsoever.

    So you can call it whatever you’d like, but if you can look at yourself in the mirror every morning and think, “By golly, me and every other American is safer because we went to war with Iraq instead of focusing our attention on Afghanistan,” well then . . . you’re an idiot who’s actively working to make sure more Americans die. Because . . . wait, my original point was that liberals hated Bush for his abuses of power, wasn’t it? You know, I only wish that I had proof . . .

    . . . but I know you have canned responses (“I dare you!” “He’s totally gonna step in it, he is, huh huh!”) and they’ll totally decimate any facts I present if you’re a fan of the last administration. It’s sad that anyone thinks we went into Iraq on the grounds we claimed, because as the sort of liberal who thinks we should’ve intervened in Darfur years ago, I can (and did) make a case for invading Iraq years before Bush and Cheney did . . . it’s just that in the aftermath of their botched invasion, I realized that doing the right thing for the wrong reason results in useless death. (I should’ve paid more attention to my Aristotle.)

    SEK (072055)

  188. If I were a different sort of commenter — you know, the one who liked to shove people’s faces in the irony of their own statements — I’d point out that the person refuting my contention that Clinton was hounded by ideologically blinkered idiots by quoting the following must be a liberal sock-puppet trying to make conservatives look bad:

    The law conferred broad investigative powers on Starr and the other independent counsels named to investigate the administration, including the right to subpoena nearly anyone who might have relevant information.

    Because if they were quoting that in order to prove that Clinton was beloved by all and not the target of anything, well then, they’d have to be an idiot to use that as evidence to the contrary.

    SEK (072055)

  189. In answer to Patterico & BJF & others who asked: How does someone opposed to abortion as murder treat abortionists? Specifically, how do you treat someone proudly and openly participates in the more egregious acts of genocide?

    As a Christian there is only one path – You pray for them, you work to outlaw that act, you try to talk to women who seek their services, you speak and write to convince others of your logic.

    There were many Christians in Europe who detested the Nazis and saw them for what they were and who acted according to their beliefs WITHIN their beliefs. Like the Ten Booms in Holland or the Huguenots in France – hiding as many Jews as possible and assisting the resistance in anyway they could.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corrie_ten_Boom
    http://www.chambon.org/weapons_en.htm

    What would I do if I had Osama Bin Laden in my sights and the ability to drop a bomb on his head? That’s easy. I’d drop it. Why? Because were I in a position to have bomb sighting equipment near my head in an area of the world where it would be likely to see OBL walk through I would be in the military and engaged in war. We can chat about just war theology later. Were I to see OBL walk in front of my sedan on RT 50 on my way to work, I’d call 911.

    What I would not do is run him over to kill him. I would also not shoot Dr. Tillman. Nor would I recommend either action or condone either action. Nor, like the many named Dana, do I mourn for either man.

    Vivian Louise (c0f830)

  190. Because all that silliness about “Judeo-Christian values” aside, you do know what the actual, Talmudic position on abortion is, don’t you?

    The fetus is not viable until it has graduated from medical school? (Ducks)

    nk (157acd)

  191. I did Google it.
    The word “actual” evidently meant something specific to your interpretation of what the Talmud says.
    I suspect that if you gave me your take on what the Talmud “actually” says, that I could use Google and find several authoritative opinions that differ from yours. Wouldn’t mean yours is wrong…

    SteveG (c99c5c)

  192. I’m not even going to dignify this with a response. Put down the fucking talking points and deal with reality for a second, if you can.

    Oh fuck no, asshole. You made the “Bush lied, people died” claim, so list the God Damn lies.

    Put something behind one of your asinine statements for once. Just because I’m requiring you to back up your snark doesn’t mean it’s talking points.

    Scott Jacobs (90ff96)

  193. Where, exactly, is Obama curtailing the freedom of speech?

    Comment by SEK — 5/31/2009 @ 8:26 pm

    1) Removing Chrysler dealers who donated to GOP candidates.

    2) Sending Truth Squads out in Missouri to stifle criticism.

    3) Issuing marching orders to the cult to disrupt an interview on WGN Radio.

    4) Targeting commentary of a private citizen and influential broadcaster.

    Also, see first 100 days for additional examples.

    Vermont Neighbor (efb5a9)

  194. I personally don’t care what happened to this
    doctor. Live by the sword die by the sword.
    He got what he deserved and is a disgrace to the
    medical profession.

    zena (d05174)

  195. What we have here is a case in which evidence was manufactured in order to justify a war

    SEK – That is a lie and you are a liar.

    JD (6675bb)

  196. But once you have overtly partisan figures involved, well, you end up impeaching the POTUS because he lied about marital infidelity, even though the person who pressed the issue (Gingrich) was on his third marriage and, I think we can all agree, has no room to speak when it comes to matters of infidelity.

    So it was okay for the President to lie about marital infidelity under oath?

    Are you aware that rape victims were asked about their past sexual history in rape prosecutions? And that if they lied, they could be prosecuted for perjury? Why is it that Bill Clinton gets a free pass to lie about his sex life, but women whose most intimate parts were violated were not free to lie about their sex lives?

    Michael Ejercito (365b6d)

  197. I have a friend who believes abortion is murder and he’s quite frank: he believes it would be morally correct to kill the abortion doctor. He just doesn’t have the guts to do it.

    And what does he say about the women who have had abortions?

    Michael Ejercito (365b6d)

  198. There’s a shortage of wire coat-hangers?

    What? Too soon?

    Scott Jacobs (90ff96)

  199. So it was okay for the President to lie about marital infidelity under oath?

    Of course it was okay! Clinton meant well, and he was on the right side, so we should overlook his technical offenses. It’s not lying if you’re a Democrat and you’re opposed by Neanderthal right-wing Republican extremists like Newt Gingrich. Because his opponents are so horrible, Clinton automatically is innocent.

    On the other hand, Bushitler is an evil warmongering neocon, so the worst should be assumed of him, even if the evidence doesn’t exist. Republicans are racist scum and are automatically guilty, unless they apologize for being Republicans and say nice things about Democrats.

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (0ea407)


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