Patterico's Pontifications

12/27/2008

Why So Many Civilian Casualties? The L.A. Times Will Tell You . . . Eventually

Filed under: Dog Trainer,General,Terrorism — Patterico @ 11:21 am

The L.A. Times reports over 200 are dead after Israel retaliated for Hamas rocket attacks. Here’s paragraphs one and two:

Israeli warplanes and helicopters bombarded military targets across the Hamas-ruled Gaza Strip today, retaliating for rocket fire into Israel but also inflicting a heavy loss of civilian life in the densely populated Palestinian enclave.

The midday waves of airstrikes killed at least 205 people, according to a Palestinian Health Ministry official in Gaza, making it the deadliest Israeli assault on Palestinian territory in years. Health Ministry officer Moaiya Hassanain estimated that one-third of the dead were civilian noncombatants and that an additional 350 Palestinians were wounded.

And paragraphs 14 and 15:

The Israeli military said the targets it attacked included Hamas security headquarters, training camps and weapons depots. In a statement, it said the “vast majority of the casualties are terror operatives.”

The military added that Hamas bore sole responsibility for any civilian casualties because it had located many of the targets “within civilian population centers.”

Sure does take a while to get to that part.

P.S. It’s too bad Obama isn’t president yet. This wouldn’t happen if he were in office.

386 Responses to “Why So Many Civilian Casualties? The L.A. Times Will Tell You . . . Eventually”

  1. Simple truth – If the Palestinians would unilaterally disarm, there would be no more killing. If the Israelis would unilaterally disarm, there would be no more Israel.

    Which side holds the key to peace?

    rls (14b9d3)

  2. The NY Times isn’t any better when it come to reporting on events in the Middle East. The following is from Barry Rubin, Jewish World Review, December 15, 2008.

    “After all, Iran’s president called for Israel to be wiped off the map, according to the official Iranian translation, and The New York Times publishes an article analyzing whether this ever happened.”

    Ropelight (d40bc3)

  3. Here’s a question for the moral equivocators out there: If locating their strategic sites within civilian areas does not prevent Israeli strikes, why then doesn’t Hamas move those sites away from civilian areas, so as to prevent the needless deaths of their fellow Palestinians? Don’t they care about their own people?

    Icy Texan (b7d162)

  4. Hamas’ Rockets are aimed at Israel. Israel’s rockets are aimed at Hamas. Too subtle a distinction for the dog trainer ya think?

    Ms. Judged (77dfcc)

  5. The lefties are putting their own spin on the story. I see four pro-truth comments and one equivocal out of 21. The left has now allied itself with militant Islam. Why ? Maybe because it is an enemy of the US. I can see no other reason as the Islamists are anti-gay, anti-woman, anti-abortion, anti-education and probably anti-union if they had any industry big enough to interest a union.

    The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Too bad that enemy is their own country.

    Mike K (2cf494)

  6. Perhaps a reference to “deadpan” humor isn’t quite as appropriate as it might be.

    However, I’m going to ask a question here that I asked Donald Douglas of the American Power blog: just how does Israel win?

    In 1948, in 1956, in 1967, in 1973 and in 1982, the Israelis thoroughly whipped the Arabs — and then agreed to cease fires which left the Arabs defeated in a battle, but never having actually lost a war, never having actually surrendered.

    The Arabs were left alive, and strong enough to regroup and fight another day.

    Further, seven years might as well be a generation as far as soldiers are concerned. The Arab soldiers who were beaten in 1948 were mostly replaced by 1956; the Arab soldiers Israel defeated in 1967 were, for the most part, not the defeated veterans of 1956.

    The majority of the fighters are young men, too young to have been in real combat last time around, and while they’ve taken a few punches, they’ve never been beaten.

    Let me be very clear here: Israel cannot be free and secure as long as the Palestinians are not physically removed from Gaza and the West Bank, and exiled to Jordan. Had Israel taken the hard path, and expelled the Palestinians following the 1967 war, thereby securing the land and shortening their defense perimeter, this could have been over a long time ago. Now there are so many Palestinians living there that expulsion is probably impossible.

    Let me be blunt again: Germany and Japan were defeated because we killed a large part of their fighting aged men, seriously wounded many more, killed many of their civilians, wounded many more, destroyed their infrastructure and their industry, and thoroughly ground them and their cultures into the dirt. We did not leave anything that could soon be reconstituted into a fighting force, nor leave them the means to rebuild their military structures in a threatening way, nor give them the freedom to even contemplate such actions. Brutal as that is, that is how you win a war.

    How can Israel defeat the Palestinians if she is unwilling to do what is necessary to defeat them?

    The somber Dana (556f76)

  7. Burying the lead is LAT 101. Why so obsessed over this joke of a newspaper? It is bankrupt, it has lost its best talent through retirement, death or scandal and it is a relic of a medium in flux.

    It is a dead newspaper.

    No savvy marketing director in hard times will waste precious ad dollars buying space in this rag. Really no one of any consequence (which speaks volumes about the city of Los Angeles– a sewer with zip codes—) reads it for breaking news or reports in it.

    Stop wasting energy picking at the corpse. We all know it stinks. Just bury it.

    DCSCA (d8da01)

  8. How can Israel defeat the Palestinians if she is unwilling to do what is necessary to defeat them?

    Rabbi Meir Kahane was right. So is this guy: Samson Blinded

    Horatio (55069c)

  9. Every single time rockets hit Israel from Gaza, move the northern wall south 10 meters.

    Al (93703e)

  10. The Dog Trainer believes we’re morons–but it forgets that some of us can “do the math”. In Paragraph 2, the Hamas “Health Minister Hassanian” says that 1/3 of the killed were civilian noncombatants; ergo 2/3 of the killed were something else. I suppose we can rule out the possibility that the other two thirds of the deceased were members of the Palestinian Marching and Chowder Society—so probably 2/3 were Hamas militants.

    Mike Myers (31af82)

  11. Over 3000 rockets launched from Gaza into Israel since the beginning of the year.

    Israel has just as much right to defend itself as any other country that is being attacked on a daily basis.

    I hope they hit them hard and don’t let up until they can be guaranteed that they will suffer no more attacks.
    Disarm or be destroyed.

    My concern is what this will do in Iraq.
    Sadarist and other anti-American forces will sieze
    on this and put Maliki in between a rock and a hard place.Pitting his support for the US(pro-Israel) against his support for Arab(anti-Isreal) independence could cause him a lot of trouble at the voting booth in the summer.

    Obama is getting the Messiah treatment with all the swooning press,books,photo ops,coins and almost every talking head expressing how great he is.
    We are going to find out real soon if all the blind admiration is justified.

    Baxter Greene (8035ae)

  12. You’re a complete fuckwit.

    Adi (93d50d)

  13. You’re I’m a complete fuckwit.

    Fixed if for you.

    kaf (6df233)

  14. Adi – Use your words. Did you have a point you wanted to make?

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  15. Pretend there is a line drawn through the You’re in comment 13. The button put the html code in the comment box but it didn’t seem to stick when posted.
    Darn.
    Anyhow, I’m pretty sure comment 12 is meant to be self-referencing.

    kaf (6df233)

  16. #

    You’re a complete fuckwit.

    Comment by Adi — 12/27/2008 @ 1:38 pm

    Who is “you’re”.
    This is such bold and comprehensive composition.
    Did someone steal one of your transformers little
    Adi,or are you just mad because your mother has sent you to your room?

    Baxter Greene (8035ae)

  17. It is a dead newspaper.

    Not quite dead; not until a stake is driven through it’s heart. Godspeed to those who are trying to do that.

    Old Coot (f036b5)

  18. “The left has now allied itself with militant Islam. Why ? Maybe because it is an enemy of the US.”

    That may be partially true. I also believe the left cannot possibly hold anyone but the US (and our allies) to any standard of decency. To do so would require too many admissions of failure wrt their world view.

    Chris (cefe13)

  19. I hope they hit them hard and don’t let up until they can be guaranteed that they will suffer no more attacks.

    There is nothing short of complete annihilation that will achieve that guarantee – and since the world will never allow Israel to do what any other country would’ve been expected to do on countless occasions, they’re screwed no matter what they do. As usual, it’s all the fault of the Joooos.

    Dmac (eb0dd0)

  20. “I’ll tell you what war is all about, you’ve got to kill people, and when you’ve killed enough they stop fighting.” Gen. Curtis LeMay

    TC (0b9ca4)

  21. The war aim of most Arabs is to inflict as many causalities as possible on their own civilians so they can garner sympathy from the stupid. The Arabs have learned it works time and again.

    Perfect Sense (9d1b08)

  22. There is nothing short of complete annihilation that will achieve that guarantee – and since the world will never allow Israel to do what any other country would’ve been expected to do on countless occasions, they’re screwed no matter what they do. As usual, it’s all the fault of the Joooos.

    Comment by Dmac — 12/27/2008 @ 2:34 pm

    I am hoping that Israel realizes that with the weapons it’s enemies have or are about to obtain that it can’t hit and pull back,hit and pull back.
    They are at the point now that if they want to survive,they are going to have to decimate their enemies.
    The UN brigade and the press are going to be against them anyway,but it is better to be alive and read the bias press than follow their appeasement policies and perish.

    Baxter Greene (8035ae)

  23. Meanwhile we and the sympathetic world continues to send aid to the poor, abused Palis. Bombs and flags to burn cost money. At least they breed like cockroaches so it seems sixty years as refugees has not diminished their libido. My liberal friends decry the genocide partaken by those durty Jooos upon the Palis.

    LGF has a story about one Kos Kid’s diary wondering why the progressive movement has not done more to vilify Israel and in support of Palistineans.

    How can we encourage the likes of Cindy Shehag and codepinko to emulate Rachel Corrie and stand in the way of the Israeli war machine and John Deere? I’d suggest that Michael Moore and others of the love islamos left might serve as human shields to protect Hamas and those innocents but their would be mass famine, given at how much food Fatboy would require.

    aoibhneas (0c6cfc)

  24. It is a dead newspaper.

    No, it’s just resting.

    navyvet (4c272e)

  25. Has the Kenesset ever debated the question of doing to the Arabs exactly what their leaders say they intend for Israel?

    Something like, do unto others, but do it first. The notion must have come up, and it does have biblical antecedents.

    Ropelight (d40bc3)

  26. Notice too that the paper states the civilian casualties as a narrative fact, without attribution to any source, while for the explanation, it resorts to disclaimer phrasing, such as “the Israeli military claims that…”

    If the media were actually even-handed about such things, it would report that “Palestinian (or Hamas) sources claimed there were many civilian casualties.” Because it lacks such a disclaimer, the article’s author (and its editors) are putting a subliminal seal of approval on the claims.

    PatHMV (8f436d)

  27. “… sympathy from the stupid…”
    When Islamists look up that phrase, they are referred to American Academic/Intellectual orginizations and their media/political allies.

    Maroons & Ignoranimusses!

    Another Drew (who will be known as AD in the coming year) (56c081)

  28. It will be interesting to observe the left throughout the Western World dealing with matters like this when the big, capitalist bully, the US, is headed by a liberal Democrat whose middle name is “Hussein,” whose heritage is African, and whose complexion is more Middle Eastern (or “Third World”) than European.

    “Progressives” already love to do contortionist routines in trying to make Ameria look like a greedy imperialist nation and societies like Palestine look like a humble, sad, misunderstood Third World community. So with their ridiculous moral equivalencies now also having to be extended to accomodate the political correctness of Barack Obama in the White House, expect even more amazing examples of distorted, nonsensical or hypocritical thinking and reactions.

    Mark (411533)

  29. The somber Dana: How can Israel defeat the Palestinians if she is unwilling to do what is necessary to defeat them?

    Horatio: Rabbi Meir Kahane was right. So is this guy: Samson Blinded.

    So is David Bogner (in 2006 and today): A Difficult Lesson.

    This is one time an Arab aggressor must be allowed to be beaten so badly that every civilized nation will stand in horror, wanting desperately to step in and stop the carnage… but knowing that the fight will only truly be over when one side gives up and finally admits defeat.

    Just as every person who had ever rescued that bully from admitting defeat helped create the cowardly brute I saw that evening in the bar, every well-intentioned power that has ever stepped in and negotiated a ceasefire for an Arab aggressor has helped create the monsters we see around us today.

    Paul (creator of "Staunch Brayer") (ed9791)

  30. Since Palestinian terrorists have murdered a bunch of Americans, I’m all for smashing the precious Pals, and driving them out of the West Bank, and Gaza…permanently.

    Hamas and Fatah are the enemies of my blood. I hope the Israelis slaughter the lot of them, and I hope that someday the United States government wakes up and helps them do it.

    Ditto for the barbarians in Hezbollah.

    Dave Surls (6edcc5)

  31. [...] Patterico commented on how The Los Angeles Times saves for well down the article the information that the vast majority of the casualties are terror operatives. [...]

    Common Sense Political Thought » Blog Archive » The war that cannot end (73d96f)

  32. Hamas are idiots but The Israeli assiult had been planned for months

    And even with Gaza in lockdown and bakeries making bread out of birdseed and people dying in hospitals for lack of equipment and medicine Hamas held the truce. But in truth their was no truce. The blockade is a weapon, and it never stopped killing.
    The Hamas attacks in the past week have killed one and injured 6. Correct me if you find another figure.

    Again: these are the settlers.
    Tell me what you see.

    sleepy (6b0755)

  33. The Israelis could have driven out the Palestinians after the 1967 war, driven the lot of them out, expelled them into Jordan, shortened their own defense perimeter, and added a lot of land to their small country. It would have been brutal, but it would have worked.

    Now there are something like 3 million Palestinians living there, and they’re breeding like rabbits; the problem for Israel gets worse every single day. The only reasonable option for the Israelis has come and gone, unused.

    The cynical Dana (556f76)

  34. Of course, after the Iranians attack Israel, there will be a whole lot fewer Pali’s too, who will be completely demoralized as they suffer at the hands of their co-religionists again.

    Another Drew (wwbkaADitcy) (d6787b)

  35. If Israel answered each rocket attach from Gaza in a timely way, world opinion would be overwhelming on Israels side. Israel’s inaction, followed by massive air strikes, works against it’s interest. Tit for tat. One Hamas missle should be followed immediately by one Israeli air strike.

    Jeb (68502b)

  36. David Ben Gurion, the first Prime Minister of israel:

    “If I was an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs. We come from Israel, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been antisemitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that?”

    Defend that statement

    sleepy (6b0755)

  37. “The Israelis could have driven out the Palestinians after the 1967 war, driven the lot of them out…”

    Never too late to correct past mistakes.

    Dave Surls (6edcc5)

  38. “Defend that statement”

    You first sleepy.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  39. “Defend that statement”

    Israel belongs to Jews/Christians.

    The Muslims stole it from us.

    We stole it back.

    Don’t like that?

    Tough.

    Dave Surls (6edcc5)

  40. C’mon, daley. How much do you want to bet that we all know “sleepy” by another name on this blog?

    Still, I do notice that not many of these mealy mouthed anti-Semites mention how Palestinians are treated outside of Israel. It would merit their attention. Lebanon comes to mind.

    http://www.un.org/unrwa/refugees/lebanon.html

    Except that, generally speaking, the only Muslims I hear criticism of by the Left are allied with Republicans. Despite their treatment of women, gays, and minorities.

    Nuance, friends. All things evil come from the West.

    Eric Blair (9294a8)

  41. “You first sleepy.”
    Actually I can’t. That was a bad choice of words on my part. I was trying to be snappy.
    The logic of the statement seems to comport with that of those who say that Zionism is racism. The statement is a defense of that.
    It continues
    “They may perhaps forget in one or two generations’ time, but for the moment there is no chance. So, it’s simple: we have to stay strong and maintain a powerful army. Our whole policy is there. Otherwise the Arabs will wipe us out.”

    Needless to say I don’t think Israeli Jews are ever going to be wiped out, nor would I ever say they should be. I’m a Jew after all; but not much of a Zionist, except maybe A Magnes Zionist
    Go read Jerry Haber. He’s a mensch.

    sleepy (6b0755)

  42. No Mr Surls. The Christians killed the Jews, then lent the survivors enough to go “back where they came from.” Nice Christians.
    Jews and Muslims got on fairly well in the old days. Not perfectly of course, but much better.

    And Mr Blair, I wonder how you’d respond if the Indians in Canada rose up and drove a few million Canucks down south (considering the land area we’d have to talk about larger numbers). How would Michiganders respond?
    I’m thinking refugee camps.

    sleepy (6b0755)

  43. Nice to know that sleepy is siding with the terrorists. SHOCKA

    JD (0232da)

  44. The Christians killed the Jews, then lent the survivors enough to go “back where they came from.”

    Got any sources to back that up?

    Paul (creator of "Staunch Brayer") (ed9791)

  45. Patterico or DRJ, please check the IP of sleepy.

    Paul (creator of "Staunch Brayer") (ed9791)

  46. Eric – AF/blah/etc./etc. claimed to be Jewish and anti-zionist if I recall correctly.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  47. Well, I am glad to hear that sleepy approves of the lack of basic civil rights that the government of Lebanon extends to the Palestinians in their many campus.

    Nuance, friends. Nuance.

    All we need is to understand our “opponents,” I realize. The problem is that it is all one way.

    But this was my very favorite quote:

    “…Jews and Muslims got on fairly well in the old days….”

    Hmm. I wonder what “old days” those were, precisely.

    The word dhimmi comes to mind. After all, the Jews knew their place and were happy, right?

    Mind you, sleepy would rail and carry on about similar statements about how well black and whites got along during the slave trading and slave owning days.

    But only evil Christians were involved in any intolerance, slave taking, or atrocities. I forgot.

    Eric Blair (9294a8)

  48. Freudian slip of mine, of course: I wrote “campus” when I meant “camps.” But it still applies….

    Eric Blair (9294a8)

  49. EB – Facts are just worn out old speed bumps for those that are servicing Teh Narrative. They might slow the troll down, for a moment, but they get right back up to speed.

    JD (0232da)

  50. “No Mr Surls. The Christians killed the Jews…”

    Yes, they have. And, Jews have killed Muslims, and Muslims have killed Muslims, and Christians have killed Christians, etc., etc., all of
    which is completely irrelevant.

    What is relevant is is that the Muslims stole the lands from Christians/Jews, and now that land has been stolen back.

    The Muslims don’t like that?

    Too bad…so sad.

    Dave Surls (6edcc5)

  51. Patterico or DRJ, please check the IP of sleepy.

    Yeah, these postings have the familiar stench of someone we all knew here previously, but no one was better for it.

    Dmac (eb0dd0)

  52. SHOCKA …

    Throw sleepy in with Mario, TMJ, turnip/sniffles/alphtard.

    Why is it that the same ones feel compelled, obsessed even, to continue to go to places where they are clearly not wanted. Nobody would do that in real life, on purpose.

    JD (0232da)

  53. I’m thinking refugee camps

    Only for those from Quebec.

    Another Drew (wwbkaADitcy) (d6787b)

  54. I’m thinking refugee camps.

    Oh yeah, just like the ones for all those “undocumented Americans.”

    Paul (creator of "Staunch Brayer") (ed9791)

  55. Muslims also believe per the new Caliphate,that much land has been stolen from them.
    Some of this land includes France,and parts of the continent of Africa.
    I guess the fashion queens and wine tasters of Paris need to start packing their bags since they are living on “stolen land”.
    They have already started “moving operations” in Darfur that the UN has been so successful in overseeing.
    This “stolen land” angle can be applied to just about every country on Earth.
    Don’t see that being the element that brings peace between Palestine and Israel.

    Baxter Greene (8035ae)

  56. ” #

    David Ben Gurion, the first Prime Minister of israel:

    “If I was an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs. We come from Israel, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been antisemitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that?”

    Defend that statement

    Comment by sleepy — 12/27/2008 @ 6:11 pm
    # ”

    To put it bluntly, fuck the Arabs. But to answer your nonsense sleepy or is it stupid, when are you going to demand that the Arabs leave every Middle Eastern and African country they conquered? I’m sure the Copts in Egypt would not mind the Arabs getting the hell out of Egypt. Or the Assyrians and Babylonians having the Arabs get the hell out of Iraq, the Kurds would love for the Arabs to get out of Kurdistan and so many others as well would love to see the Arabs out of their lands as well.

    Like I said, fuck the Arabs. Israel should stop fooling around and blast Gaza from end to end with artillery fire until they either die, leave or surrender. Total war, the Gen. W.T Sherman way. Make Gaza howl until the Arabs conclude ending the war is better than continuing to fight the war.

    cubanbob (409ac2)

  57. Sleepy in 36 above asked:

    Defend that statement.

    Sounds to me like it was spot-on; the Arabs are behaving exactly as Mr Ben-Gurion said they would.

    We have no evidence, no evidence at all, that the Palestinians would find living side-by-side with Israeli in peace an acceptable solution. The late Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, figuring that there was no way he could ever get an actual agreement with the Palestinians, started a process of simple evacuation without an agreement, leaving the Palestinians on their own, and withdrew all Israelis — including the forced removal of settlers — from Gaza.

    That was a small step, but had the Palestinians been willing to actually live in peace, they could have taken Gaza and at least tried to do something with it. Gaza has few resources, but it does have one: a beautiful beach, one which, if properly managed and with an infrastructure built, would attract wealthy Europeans. The only thing the Palestinians had to do was stop fighting, stop shooting at Israel from Gaza!

    They couldn’t even do that.

    The disappointed Dana (556f76)

  58. Sleepy wrote:

    The Christians killed the Jews, then lent the survivors enough to go “back where they came from.” Nice Christians.

    Too much of an over-simplification. The Zionist movement was started by Theodore Herzl long before the Nazis ever came to power, and a slow-motion immigration to the Levant was taking place while der Führer was still in jail. World War II simply accelerated the spread of Zionism, with the surviving Jews finally seeing that there was no place for them among the populations of Europe.

    The Jews did everything they possibly could to “fit in” with us good Christians. They (mostly) adopted Western dress, they (mostly) gave up their language for the local tongues, many changed their names, to better blend in, they went to the same schools and universities as the Christian locals — when allowed — and proved so successful that good, noble, egalitarian countries like the United States had universities which enacted Jewish quotas, so not too many Jews would get in. They basically adopted the go-along-to-get-along philosophy, tried to assimilate, yet it did absolutely no good. We blame Adolf Hitler and the Nazi regime, but the Nazis could have accomplished nothing were the German people not willing to go along and do their bidding.

    Anti-Semitism was an old, old European disease, one which existed long before the Nazis. It’s not like anti-Semitism was somehow a surprise part of the Nazi program: it’s all right there, in Mein Kampf, for anyone to read. Herr Hitler was probably the most honest politician in Europe at the time: he actually told people what he believed and what he wanted to do, and even the universities, the supposed bastions of liberal thinking, went over to the Nazis in a body.

    Theodore Harzl was simply more foresighted than most. It wasn’t so much that he saw what was coming, but that he recognized what was already there, and saw that it could only get worse.

    The historian Dana (556f76)

  59. “Sounds to me like it was spot-on; the Arabs are behaving exactly as Mr Ben-Gurion said they would.”
    And as you would as well.
    And their neighbors behaved the same way any other small states would when faced with a sudden influx of refugees- refugee camps.

    The defenses of Ben Gurion’s statements are defenses of racism (though the Palestinians and Jews are genetically almost identical). And Dana my comments were glib yes, but your “history” is just odd.. That you wrote it with a straight face is even stranger.

    “But to answer your nonsense sleepy or is it stupid, when are you going to demand that the Arabs leave every Middle Eastern and African country they conquered? ”

    The Arabs are from the middle east and they live nowhere else.
    But I suppose you mean “Islam” which came from the same deserts that brought us Judaism and Christianity, all foreign to Europe. If you want to bring back the druids feel free.
    As I child the only gods that interested me lived on Mount Olympus. I’ve always thought of prophets as ranting ideologues.

    sleepy (6b0755)

  60. The defenses of Ben Gurion’s statements are defenses of racism (though the Palestinians and Jews are genetically almost identical).

    That rules out racism then, doesn’t it?

    The Arabs are from the middle east and they live nowhere else.

    Really? Dearborn, Michigan will be interested to know that.

    Pablo (99243e)

  61. The defenses of Ben Gurion’s statements are defenses of racism

    RACISTS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    That was a SHOCKA, wasn’t it?

    JD (228b75)

  62. To answer sleepy, Ben-Gurion’s just stating a fact; there’s nothing to defend. Of course the Palestinians consider Israel to be ‘their’ territory. That doesn’t mean that it is. The world isn’t a fair place. India and Pakistan have claims on each others territory. Bin Laden wants Spain returned to Muslim control. Russia wants “its” territory in Georgia back. That doesn’t mean any of those claims are legitimate. (Of course, as with India and Pakistan, each side knows their own claims are legitimate and the other sides claims are bunk.)

    You deal with the world as it is now, not however your particular version of “justice” thinks it should be. Hamas is waging war against Israel, and is using its own military weakness and its civilian population as a shield. The question is, is a conventional military response appropriate for attacking an enemy that relies on irregular warfare and human shields? For the US and the rest of the civilized world (regardless of the actual countries involved), the response to that question has to be, “yes, when faced with an enemy that relies on irregular warfare and useus their own civilian population as human shields, regular military force is an appropriate response, and the responsibility for those civilian casualties lies with the party using them as shields.”

    Civilis (7b5c87)

  63. The Arabs are from the middle east and they live nowhere else.

    Really? Dearborn, Michigan will be interested to know that.

    Comment by Pablo — 12/28/2008 @ 7:38 am

    So would England!

    Mossberg500 (9fd170)

  64. The Arabs are from the middle east and they live nowhere else.

    Really? Dearborn, Michigan will be interested to know that.

    Comment by Pablo — 12/28/2008 @ 7:38 am

    So would England!

    Comment by Mossberg500 — 12/28/2008 @ 8:34 am

    So would every member nation of the European Union: The EU Wants to Increase Muslim Immigration and Internet Censorship.

    Paul (creator of "Staunch Brayer") (ed9791)

  65. And Dana my comments were glib yes, but your “history” is just odd.. That you wrote it with a straight face is even stranger.

    Maybe because facts are a foreign concept to you?

    Paul (creator of "Staunch Brayer") (ed9791)

  66. The Arabs are from the middle east and they live nowhere else.

    You obviously forgot about the massive migrations of Arab nationals to the entirety of Europe – as well as the influx into Canada and the US over the past few decades.

    Asshat.

    Dmac (eb0dd0)

  67. The Arabs are from the middle east and they live nowhere else.

    Several nations in northern Africa would be interested to learn that also…especially in Mauritania, since African Arabs own slaves there.

    Oh yeah, since you brought up racism, here is what Samuel Cotton found, and received threats from Nation of Islam members for daring to write about it:

    In 1995, the City Sun, an African-American newspaper, hired Samuel to investigate allegations of contemporary enslavement of black Africans in Mauritania and Sudan. Samuel’s conclusion was startling: chattel slavery of black Africans is still an entrenched problem in some African countries. He found that race was the determining factor in slavery, and that dark-skinned Muslims and black Christians are being held in bondage by lighter-skinned Muslims. Samuel found people willing to risk their lives in Africa to carry out strategies for resistance. He went undercover for 28 days to interview leaders of anti-slavery operations in Mauritania, as well as slaves and runaway slaves. In Mauritania alone, he estimates, there are 90,000 slaves, but the government suppresses all information and punishes any form of resistance. He explains, “I felt guilty doing the interviews because I knew I could get them (anti-slavery leaders) in trouble. But they kept telling me: ‘Our job is to die for this.’” Anti-slavery workers in Mauritania are often tortured, and are sent to prison. Sometimes they disappear.

    Paul (creator of "Staunch Brayer") (ed9791)

  68. ___________________________________

    It wouldn’t be as easy to dismiss the credibility and validity of the Palestinians if they (and, more tellingly, other Middle Eastern societies, for that matter) at least showed an ability to run a better managed, more decent, more stable nation. Of course, some will say, “but how can the Palestinians do that when the mean ‘ol Israelis keep their neighbors under lock and thumb?”

    Or the type of comment from those who’ll also say something along the lines of: “Mexico is a crime-ridden, forever-impoverished mess because Uncle Sam hasn’t been generous enough to it. Because Mexico’s neighbor to the north is imperialist and exploitative. Because it needs more foreign aid and TLC from the US,” or a reaction similar to that.

    Meanwhile, another way to determine whether the sentiments of a person observing the plight of societies worldwide are or are not blatantly foolish — if not idiotic — he or she can read the excerpt below and then ask him or herself:

    - Does this report bother me? If so, by how much?
    - Do I feel more repelled, equally repelled, or just a bit less repelled by Mugabe’s Zimbabwe than Bush’s America?
    - Do I feel more indignant towards, say, the US military and a Republican-run White House than the government of Zimbawe? Towards the countries of the industrialized First World compared with a nation like Zimbawe?
    - Do I believe that the people running Zimbabwe deserve the benefit of the doubt because they’re (a) underdogs, (b) non-imperalist, non-Western, (c) ultra-socialists, non-Western-conservatives, (d) an illustration of what happens because the US government isn’t generous enough, is too unilateral, is too distant from the UN, the ACLU, trial lawyers, the AFL-CIO, the NAACP, etc, etc?

    Today’s New York Times:

    Edna Madzongwe, president of the Senate and a powerful member of Zimbabwe’s ruling party, began showing up uninvited at the Etheredges’ farm here last year, at times still dressed up after a day in Parliament. And she made her intentions clear, the Etheredges say: she wanted their farm and intended to get it through the government’s land redistribution program.

    The farm is a beautiful spread, with three roomy farm houses and a lush, 55,000-tree orange orchard that generates $4 million a year in exports. The Etheredges, outraged by what they saw as her attempt to steal the farm, secretly taped their exchanges with her.

    “Are you really serious to tell me that I cannot take up residence because of what it does to you?” she asked Richard Etheredge, 72, whose father bought the farm in 1947. “Government takes what it wants.”

    He dryly replied, “That we don’t deny,” according to a transcript of the tapes.

    Zimbabwe’s handling of the land issue has had disastrous consequences. Since 2000, when Mr. [Robert] Mugabe [Zimbabwe’s 84-year-old liberation hero and president] began encouraging the violent invasion of the country’s large, white-owned commercial farms — once the country’s largest employers — food production has collapsed, hunger has afflicted millions and the economy has never recovered.

    Mr. Mugabe presents this redistribution as a triumph over greedy whites. But it set off a scramble for the best farms among the country’s ruling elite, who often had little knowledge or interest in farming, and became a potent source of patronage for Mr. Mugabe.

    By this year, the number of white-owned commercial farms dwindled to about 300 from 4,500. Even many of the remaining ones came under assault in this year’s bloodstained election season.


    ___________________________________

    Mark (411533)

  69. “‘ Italians are from Italy and they live nowhere else.’
    You obviously forgot about Brooklyn.”

    True… true

    I live down the street from a mosque, serving Egyptian, Lebanese, Palestinian and Bangladeshi nationals.
    Iran is not an Arab, and neither is Indonesia, which has the largest population of any Muslim country. India is home to 154 Million muslims, making it #3.
    And Sunni and Shia get along like Catholics and Protestants.

    sleepy (6b0755)

  70. No Mr Surls. The Christians killed the Jews, then lent the survivors enough to go “back where they came from.” Nice Christians.

    The Nazis were not Christian although many Christian Germans participated. Anti-Semitism has a long history but only the religion of Islam has it as part of its ideology.

    Jews and Muslims got on fairly well in the old days. Not perfectly of course, but much better.

    Yes, they got along as dhimmi, second class citizens. Most literature and commerce in Islamic lands were conducted by Jews or Christian Greeks. The Greeks were expelled from Turkey after WWI. If you study the history of Islam (and I’m sure you haven’t), you learn that Arabs actually accomplished very little except war. The Arab “Renaissance” of the 14th century was actually the result of Greek speaking Christians who did all the translations. Some of them had conveniently “converted” to Islam.

    And Mr Blair, I wonder how you’d respond if the Indians in Canada rose up and drove a few million Canucks down south (considering the land area we’d have to talk about larger numbers). How would Michiganders respond?
    I’m thinking refugee camps.

    Comment by sleepy

    You obviously have no sense of history. We have absorbed millions of immigrants with no disturbance and very little social disruption. The present wave of immigrants is composed of illiterate peasants yet they are treated well even if most of us wish they would go home. You have no idea what you are writing about.

    I would suggest a reading list for you but you don’t strike me as a student willing to learn.

    Mike K (2cf494)

  71. And Mr Blair, I wonder how you’d respond if the Indians in Canada rose up and drove a few million Canucks down south (considering the land area we’d have to talk about larger numbers). How would Michiganders respond?
    I’m thinking refugee camps.

    How about we look at how Egypt is responding to a sudden Palestinian influx: not only is the Egyptian Foreign Minister placing all blame on Hamas for the current situation in Gaza, Egypt itself has no interest in taking in Palestinian refugees: Egyptians open fire on Palestinians.

    (h/t: LGF)

    Paul (creator of "Staunch Brayer") (ed9791)

  72. We have absorbed millions of immigrants with no disturbance and very little social disruption.

    Time for a Bill Whittle quote:

    There is no more multi-cultural society on earth than the United States. The United States owns the patent on Coexisting religions and ethnicities. Drive half a mile though any major US urban area and you will see more ancient ethnic enemies living cheek by jowl in harmony than any other spot on the planet. Thursday morning water cooler conversations about Dancing with the Stars wallpaper over more ancient ethnic and religious murders than history has been able to record, and this despite Hollywood and the news media’s deepest efforts to remind you on a daily basis that the black or Hispanic or Asian or white friend in the next cube is secretly seething with racial hatred just beneath that placid veneer.

    Americans are able to coexist because they have subjugated, if not abandoned, those ancient religious and ethnic hatreds to join a larger family, that larger family being America. And this is why, if you truly value the idea of coexistence, you should be dead set against multi-cultural grievance and identity politics, which do nothing but pit one ethnic group against the others and reinforce, rather than dilute, ancient resentments and grievances.

    Paul (creator of "Staunch Brayer") (ed9791)

  73. Nine Israeli civilians have been killed by rockets fired from Gaza since September 2005.
    1,400 Palestinians in Gaza have been killed by Israeli security forces since that time,
    And Egypt is a US backed dictatorship. Why not ask the Egyptian people what they think?
    The rest is of the responses are racist blather and less history than myth. i.e.:
    “If you study the history of Islam (and I’m sure you haven’t), you learn that Arabs actually accomplished very little except war.”
    this is getting tiresome.

    Israel wanted a ceasefire while maintaining the blockade. Hamas signed on believing the blockade would end. It didn’t, but they held the truce. When the ceasefire expired as planned six months later Hamas returned to mortar attacks. Perhaps one person has been killed in those attacks.
    Israel’s response has killed hundreds.
    Read Ha’aretz, Barak planned the attack before the ceasefire and never negotiated in good faith.

    sleepy (6b0755)

  74. And Sunni and Shia get along like Catholics and Protestants

    Someone has never been to Belfast, or is being terribly ironic.

    Another Drew (wwbkaADitcy) (8cf528)

  75. First sleepy misrepresents the Ben Gurion quote and falsely accuses people who – unlike sleepy – understand Ben Gurion’s point as being “racist”. Then sleepy used the phrase “negotiated in good faith”.

    That’s pretty hilarious. Self parody reaches new lows.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  76. How did I misrepresent Ben Gurion’s quote?
    AD: Strictly speaking it wasn’t irony. But yes, I was thinking of Belfast.

    Here’s the Jerusalem correspondent for The Daily Telegraph.

    sleepy (6b0755)

  77. Nine Israeli civilians have been killed by rockets fired from Gaza since September 2005.
    1,400 Palestinians in Gaza have been killed by Israeli security forces since that time,

    Hello? Hello? Is this thing on? Did you even bother to read the post? Palestinian deaths are a direct result of Hamas locating its security headquarters, training camps and weapons depots deep within population centers.

    Hamas wants to maximize the number of civilian deaths — be they Israeli or Palestinian. If you don’t know that, you need to educate yourself on the history of the conflict.

    aunursa (e9b1f7)

  78. Nine Israeli civilians have been killed by rockets fired from Gaza since September 2005.
    – 1) The number is actually 10, and that’s ten too many. 2) Don’t forget to mention the 783 people injured by rocket attacks; but then, you didn’t really forget to mention it, did you? I guess being maimed, losing a limb or an eye, doesn’t count if you stay alive.

    1,400 Palestinians in Gaza have been killed by Israeli security forces since that time,
    – And they were all innocent, I know.

    And Egypt is a US backed dictatorship. Why not ask the Egyptian people what they think?
    – Define what you mean by “backed”. Also, note that the US welcomes and supports the rise of democracy in all parts of the world. I guess that you really have a problem with the incoming administration, since they have a policy of being on friendly terms with nearly every nation on earth.

    Israel wanted a ceasefire while maintaining the blockade. Hamas signed on believing the blockade would end.
    – By your own words Hamas believed something that they had no reason to believe.

    It didn’t, but they held the truce. When the ceasefire expired as planned six months later Hamas returned to mortar attacks.
    – How noble of them.

    Perhaps one person has been killed in those attacks. Israel’s response has killed hundreds.
    – It is nothing but a numbers game, right? It’s okay to launch rockets at civilian targets as long as they don’t cause too much damage, isn’t it?

    Icy Texan (b7d162)

  79. “Hello? Hello? Is this thing on?…
    “Hamas locating its security headquarters, training camps and weapons depots deep within population centers.”

    I’ll respond in kind; Gaza is a population center, and Hamas won the Palestinian elections.
    After which the US supported an attempted coup

    After failing to anticipate Hamas’s victory over Fatah in the 2006 Palestinian election, the White House cooked up yet another scandalously covert and self-defeating Middle East debacle: part Iran-contra, part Bay of Pigs. With confidential documents, corroborated by outraged former and current U.S. officials, the author reveals how President Bush, Condoleezza Rice, and Deputy National-Security Adviser Elliott Abrams backed an armed force under Fatah strongman Muhammad Dahlan, touching off a bloody civil war in Gaza and leaving Hamas stronger than ever.

    sleepy (6b0755)

  80. Gaza is a population center,

    You’re obfuscating. Gaza contains areas with higher population densities and lower population densities, just like every other populated region in the world. Hamas chooses to locate military targets within population centers, rather than within less-populated areas.

    and Hamas won the Palestinian elections. After which the US supported an attempted coup

    How is that relevant to Hamas’ decision to locate its military targets among the population centers?

    aunursa (e9b1f7)

  81. It takes a special kind of amorality to look at a conflict where one side targets civilians and the other side targets combatants and condemn the latter.

    But that’s sleepy evidently.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  82. I’ll respond in kind; Gaza is a population center, and Hamas won the Palestinian elections.

    So explain to us why Hamas is locating security headquarters, training camps and weapons deep in Gaza if it is a population center. Apparently they don’t care about their own civilians.

    Paul (creator of "Staunch Brayer") (ed9791)

  83. Oh, I see! Because they are a democratically elected terrorist group, that makes it okay for them to launch rockets and mortars targeted at civilians.

    Verrrrry interestink.

    Icy Texan (b7d162)

  84. “Of course the Palestinians consider Israel to be ‘their’ territory. That doesn’t mean that it is.”

    It is if they’re strong enough to hold on to it. If they aren’t, it isn’t.

    The only claim that Arabic-speaking Muslims have to Israel or the lands around Israel is is that they were once strong enough to take it by force.

    If they aren’t strong enough to retain control…too bad for them.

    Dave Surls (dd61e6)

  85. “Nine Israeli civilians have been killed by rockets fired from Gaza since September 2005.
    1,400 Palestinians in Gaza have been killed by Israeli security forces since that time”

    Sounds like the precious Pals are getting their asses kicked.

    That’s good.

    Dave Surls (dd61e6)

  86. Don’t those Zionist dogs know that the approved response to rocket attacks from Gaza is Israelis throwing their shoes at Gaza?

    nk (2f022a)

  87. Levy made a couple of excellent observations. Firstly, that “We now have no fewer than three U.S. generals in the region working on this issue– and none of them is doing anything that would count as de-escalation of the tensions.” Secondly, that what he had been learning from his Israeli compatriots was that Hamas had discernibly been trying to target military installations with its rockets, while it was Palestinian Islamic Jihad and the Popular Resistance Committees who had been sending rockets simply into the (populated) general vicinity of the city of Sderot. “Though Hamas,” he added, “has not intervened to stop them from doing that.”

    “Levy” is Daniel Levy:
    During the Barak Government, he worked in the Israeli Prime Minister’s Office as special adviser and head of Jerusalem Affairs, following which Daniel worked as senior policy adviser to then Israeli Minister of Justice, Yossi Beilin.

    Both Israel and Hamas have said they try not to target civilians. But then again the blockade targets civilians. Gaza is a ghetto in lockdown. The truce did not change that, but Hamas held the truce even while people were dying.

    I’m still waiting for someone to tell me how I misrepresented the quote from Ben Gurion,

    sleepy (6b0755)

  88. The rest is of the responses are racist blather and less history than myth. i.e.:
    “If you study the history of Islam (and I’m sure you haven’t), you learn that Arabs actually accomplished very little except war.”
    this is getting tiresome.

    I can certainly see how you would find it tiresome. I suspect you find history tiresome. I could supply a quiz but I don’t want to give you any credibility as you are a troll, posting under a false identity and making outrageous comments simply to get yourself noticed.

    Goodbye.

    MIke K (2cf494)

  89. Both Israel and Hamas have said they try not to target civilians.

    So what?

    That does not absolve Hamas from locating security headquarters, training camps and weapons depots in densely populated civilian areas, nor does the blame fall on Israel for targeting security headquarters, training camps and weapons depots in densely populated civilian areas…since that’s where Hamas located them.

    I see. You are for Hamas firing rockets at will for Hamas, with no Israeli response. Bloodthirsty warmonger.

    Paul (creator of "Staunch Brayer") (ed9791)

  90. I’m still waiting for someone to tell me how I misrepresented the quote from Ben Gurion

    Simple. You tried to claim it proved your argument when it actually proved ours.

    Paul (creator of "Staunch Brayer") (ed9791)

  91. sleepy, Hamas says that they don’t target civilians? And you repeat that with a straight face? I can’t fully express my disdain for you and your vile friends on this blog.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  92. sleepy, Hamas says that they don’t target civilians? And you repeat that with a straight face?

    Yeah, and I can dunk on Ben Wallace.

    I said so, so it must be true.

    Paul (creator of "Staunch Brayer") (ed9791)

  93. I’m still waiting for someone to tell me how I misrepresented the quote from Ben Gurion,

    – I’m still waiting for you to respond to even one of my detailed refutations of your silliness.

    Icy Texan (b7d162)

  94. I first thought that the Oslo Accords were proof that “Jews are smart” was a myth. But I have since cahnged my mind. If you are a sovereign state, hostile action against another sovereign state is war. And you better be prepared for collateral damage when your rocket-armed militias go to war.

    nk (2f022a)

  95. From LGF: Shocka: CAIR Speaks Up for Hamas.

    To no one’s surprise, the Council on American Islamic Relations, one of the main unindicted co-conspirators in the recent Hamas funding trial of the Holy Land Foundation, is working the “massacre” angle and blaming the citizens of the US for supplying Israel with weapons: CAIR Condemns Israeli ‘Massacre’ in Gaza.

    Chances that the LAT will bury this at least 15 paragraphs down or even report this:

    Note: CAIR is reduced to using press releases to issue these statements. The mainstream media seem much less ready to parrot CAIR’s propaganda lately.

    Paul (creator of "Staunch Brayer") (ed9791)

  96. “You tried to claim it proved your argument when it actually proved ours.”

    We come from Israel, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been antisemitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that?
    It seems to me he’s right, there’s no reason at all.
    What would you do in their situation?
    What does the statement prove to you?

    “Hamas says that they don’t target civilians? And you repeat that with a straight face”
    No. The man who said that with a straight face was a former representative of an Israeli Prime Minister.

    “That does not absolve Hamas from locating security headquarters, training camps and weapons depots in densely populated civilian areas,”
    Hamas is the government of Gaza. They run the city administration and the police force.

    GENEVA, Dec 28 (Reuters) – Hospitals in the Gaza Strip are overwhelmed and unable to cope with the casualties from Israeli air strikes, the international Red Cross said on Sunday.
    Gaza’s hospitals urgently need medical equipment and people are afraid to go into the streets, the International Committee of the Red Cross said. Nearly 290 people have been killed in two days of strikes Israel says were a response to rocket fire.
    “The hospitals are overwhelmed and unable to cope with the scale and type of injuries that keep coming in,” Marianne Robyn Whittington, an ICRC health delegate in Gaza, said in a statement from the organisation.

    The arguments here hinge on cheap moralism until they’re challenged by facts. Then the moralism turns into “might makes right.” Moral indignation turns to amoral indifference, on a dime.
    Think about that for a minute and read through the thread.
    The shallowness is really pretty shameful.

    sleepy (6b0755)

  97. Meanwhile, SPQR, the next post at LGF suggests that the AP published a staged Hamas photo.

    Paul (creator of "Staunch Brayer") (ed9791)

  98. Paul, dog bites man. AP is fauxtography.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  99. You have yet to challenge a single point that I made, sleepy. Shallowness?

    Icy Texan (b7d162)

  100. It seems to me he’s right, there’s no reason at all.

    And we also said there’s nothing to defend; it’s a statement of fact.

    No. The man who said that with a straight face was a former representative of an Israeli Prime Minister.

    Got a name, date, link?

    Which prime minister?

    Of course this ignores fact that if the Israelis had not put up a border fence, palestinian suicide bombers would still be blowing themselves up in malls and pizza parlors, killing and maiming civilians. Interesting how that’s conveniently “forgotten.”

    Hamas is the government of Gaza. They run the city administration and the police force.

    Oh, so the Palestinian military is run by mob rule?

    The arguments here hinge on cheap moralism until they’re challenged by facts. Then the moralism turns into “might makes right.” Moral indignation turns to amoral indifference, on a dime.
    Think about that for a minute and read through the thread.
    The shallowness is really pretty shameful.

    You shouldn’t talk about yourself that way.

    Paul (creator of "Staunch Brayer") (ed9791)

  101. I’m confused. Is it the city administration or the police force that is in charge of launching mortar & rocket attacks against civilian targets?

    Icy Texan (b7d162)

  102. Icy Texan, since they are all indistinguishable from criminal gangs, I don’t think even they know.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  103. And Sunni and Shia get along like Catholics and Protestants.

    The Troll’s increasingly unhinged posts remind me of what I used to read as a child, the collected works of Highlights for Children.

    Dmac (eb0dd0)

  104. I’m confused.

    No moral confusion whatsoever for Trollboy – it’s a very simple calculation: Jews Baaad/ Palestinians and all Arabs Good.

    Dmac (eb0dd0)

  105. On 18 December 1972, Operation Linebacker II commenced, with over 3000 sorties of B-52′s, and 40,000 tons of bombs dropped on the general Hanoi area, and lasted for 11 days, resulting in the North Vietnamese returning to the Paris talks, and penning a Peace Accord.

    Are the Israelis willing to continue their operation until Hamas finally says “Uncle”?

    If they want peace, they had better be willing to make war.

    Another Drew (wwbkaADitcy) (d8d174)

  106. Dmac, you like how he just skips right over why there was a blockade of Gaza.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  107. I’m still waiting for someone to tell me how I misrepresented the quote from Ben Gurion,

    Ben Gurion wasn’t describing an historical reality: he was describing the myth perpetrated in the Arab version “The Naqba.”

    And Arabs originally lived in a very small portion of the Middle East~The Arabian Peninsula, until they swept outward across the Middle East(although not really reaching the Levant, later known as TransJordan) and North Africa in an orgy of conquest and enslavement of the native populations inspired by the megalomania of Mohammed (may he continue to reside in Hell being buggered with a telephone pole).

    The Arabs have no more legitimate claim than I do, as a native born Texan, to the traditional lands of Israel (which has had a Jewish population living there continuously since Biblical times).

    Idiot.

    EW1(SG) (e27928)

  108. “Ben Gurion wasn’t describing an historical reality: he was describing the myth perpetrated in the Arab version The Naqba.”

    You lie like a rug kid. Or maybe you’re just making it up as you go along, like I.T.

    Ben Gurion: “They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that? They may perhaps forget in one or two generations’ time, but for the moment there is no chance. So, it’s simple: we have to stay strong and maintain a powerful army. Our whole policy is there. Otherwise the Arabs will wipe us out.”

    “The Arabs have no more legitimate claim than I do, as a native born Texan, to the traditional lands of Israel”
    Jews and Palestinians are genetically almost identical. Guess why.

    sleepy (6b0755)

  109. it’s like playing wack-a-mole with earnest defenders of the Confederacy.

    TTFN

    sleepy (6b0755)

  110. This just gets more and more hilarious.

    “…Jews and Palestinians are genetically almost identical. Guess why…”

    Would that be Ashkenazim, or Sephardim, that are “almost identical”?

    Another Drew (wwbkaADitcy) (d8d174)

  111. sleepy definitely sounds like blah/AF/JAR and whatever other names he’s gone under here. He’s just keeping the profanity under wraps for the time being.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  112. But then again the blockade targets civilians. Gaza is a ghetto in lockdown. The truce did not change that, but Hamas held the truce even while people were dying.

    Your mentality reminds me of the people back in 1992 who claimed the LA Riots (aka the “uprising”) were due to neglect and apathy from the upper echelons of America’s (of LA’s) economy and society. That the capitalist class had been too greedy and shortsighted, the middle class had been too busy and ignorant pursuing its livelihood elsewhere, the government hadn’t been caring and protective enough, and the police had been too racist and either too restrictive or not sympathetic enough towards people in the hood. IOW, everyone was to blame — or deserved the most blame — but the troublemakers and criminals (not to mention the misguided, wedded-to-the-Democrat-Party voters of the inner-city) themselves.

    When applying such a foolish mindset to the Middle East, will a person even be able to find one sincerely, legitimately negative thing to say about Palestine/Hamas?

    Probably not. Either that or they’re going to have to really stretch their supposed (read: ass-backwards) instincts of generosity and do-gooder-ism.

    BBC:

    Although a six-month truce between Hamas and Israel was agreed earlier this year, it was regularly under strain and was allowed to lapse when it expired this month.

    Hamas blamed Israel for the end of the ceasefire, saying it had not respected its terms, including the lifting of the blockade under which little more than humanitarian aid has been allowed into Gaza.

    Israel said it initially began a staged easing of the blockade, but this was halted when Hamas failed to fulfil what Israel says were agreed conditions, including ending all rocket fire and halting weapons smuggling.

    Mark (411533)

  113. How could Israel impose a total blockade upon Gaza when Gaza borders Egypt?
    Unless, of course, those pesky Pali’s can’t even stay on good terms with their fellow Arabs?
    Or, heresy upon heresy, perhaps the Arabs just don’t give a shit about the Pali’s except as some rabble-rousing symbol, which they would find a substitute for if perchance the Pali’s all died out, eliminating a headache for two peoples – the Israelis and the Arabs.

    Another Drew (wwbkaADitcy) (d8d174)

  114. More Arab love for the Palestinians here.

    Another Drew (wwbkaADitcy) (d8d174)

  115. “The Arabs have no more legitimate claim than I do, as a native born Texan, to the traditional lands of Israel”

    So do you have a legitimate claim to Texas because your’re native born? Don’t native born Israelis have a legitimate claim, or is it just based on some arbitrary amount of time native born inhabitants have occupied the land. I don’t think you’d give up your house to a Mexican descendent who occupied the land you currently inhabit, would you?

    Mossberg500 (9fd170)

  116. Wow. An idiot troll defending the Palestinians. Big shocker.

    Rob Crawford (b5d1c2)

  117. Yo, fuckhead. Your dishonesty is manifest~do not attempt to project your half ass lying onto me.

    EW1(SG) (e27928)

  118. You lie like a rug kid. Or maybe you’re just making it up as you go along, like I.T.

    Ben Gurion: “They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that? They may perhaps forget in one or two generations’ time, but for the moment there is no chance. So, it’s simple: we have to stay strong and maintain a powerful army. Our whole policy is there. Otherwise the Arabs will wipe us out.”

    So what?

    How does this quote refute EW1(SG)’s statement?

    Paul (creator of "Staunch Brayer") (ed9791)

  119. #111 Another Drew (wwbkaADitcy):

    Would that be Ashkenazim, or Sephardim, that are “almost identical”?

    Both. Jews, and their Arab cousins (in the evolutionary sense) are believed to have shared a small matrilineal gene pool at some time in the distant past, ie, about the time humanity moved outward from the “Fertile Crescent.” So a blue-eyed blond Ashkenazim and a black haired, dark eyed Sephardim share a genetic structure that uniquely places them in what is now the Middle East; as do the Arabs. However, in migrating away from the Fertile Crescent, they chose different paths~literally.

    #116 Mossberg500:

    So do you have a legitimate claim to Texas because your’re native born?

    According to my birth certificate issued by the El Paso National Bank, yes…along with the right to tell tall tales, a ten gallon hat, spurs and fleas.

    But I think you misread my comment: Jews have occupied the land continuously since Biblical times, no matter who the conqueror du jour happened to be. To claim that they “stole” it from anyone is, ah, disingenuous at best.

    EW1(SG) (e27928)

  120. And my apologies to all the gentle readers here for my use of vulgarity~being accused of lying by a liar does tend to bring out the sailor in me.

    EW1(SG) (e27928)

  121. Dmac, you like how he just skips right over why there was a blockade of Gaza.

    It obviously skips over anything and everything that doesn’t conform to it’s narrative. Teh evil Joos are entirely responsible for the Palestinian’s self – inflicted plight, period. They need to stand down and accept their utter annihiliation, because TrollBoy sez so.

    Discourse as lame as this type of Trollery has been out of fashion for many years at this point, but there are always new anti – Semitic converts to take up the discredited flag.

    Dmac (eb0dd0)

  122. “The hospitals are overwhelmed and unable to cope with the scale and type of injuries that keep coming in,” Marianne Robyn Whittington, an ICRC health delegate in Gaza, said in a statement from the organisation.

    Spoken like a credulous fool.

    Hamas ended the ceasefire although they had never fully observed it.

    The Palestinians have a long history of faking atrocities.

    And even civilian casualties have been faked especially when they were inflicted by their own side.

    The Rachel Corrie story is another example of the lies used by Palestinians on gullible or sympathetic media.

    Mike K (2cf494)

  123. So now the Iranian islamofreaks are calling on muslims to defend Palis? Why don’t muslims integrate the sixty plus years of rufugee status pali scunwads who breed like cucarachas into their own socities? I say feck off Iran and Ay-rabs in general. My libtard friends have catigated me for defending the dirty Joos who wreak genocide on the great Allah’s people. Jajaja.
    Drinking a little wine with my cheese and not feeling any pain.
    How Jack Klompus- where do your loyalties lie? The Iggles whupped Cowboy arse badly 44-6. All those fumbles returned for TDs was great. What do you say ex-Eagle, now Cowbuy WR? Eagles get the wildcard. Poor widdle America’s team…bwahhhh!!
    But seriously I am in south florida now and not a homer. How about those Dolphins turning things around though? Was hoping the Jets would kick their asses. I love it when ‘Fins choke though, but would something if they went far in playoffs.

    aoibhneas (0c6cfc)

  124. Mike K. – A group of us honor the memory of Racael Corrie by gathering every year for a celebration of her life on the day of her death at IHOP.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  125. daleyrocks, tell me where the meeting is and I’ll bring the bulldozer.

    I denounce myself.

    Mike K (2cf494)

  126. “at some time in the distant past, ie, about the time humanity moved outward from the Fertile Crescent.”
    Maybe you’re confusing the Fertile Crescent with Olduvai Gorge, in Tanzania. “Humanity” didn’t originate in the Fertile Crescent. And Jewish movement, as Ben Gurion notes, too place 2000 years ago, or 2500, if you want the more official count.
    Here’s the link you’re looking for.
    And blond haired blue eyed Jews are the result of intermarriage, or at least getting laid outside the tribe.
    “Israel said it initially began a staged easing of the blockade”
    Read the link to Haaretz The title of the article is:
    “Disinformation, secrecy and lies: How the Gaza offensive came about”
    It’s written by a Jew.

    sleepy (6b0755)

  127. Argumentation:

    “..It’s written by a Jew….”

    And post #127 is written by a troll.

    The point?

    Eric Blair (9294a8)

  128. 127 you are a horse’s ass, little parsnip. I know you monbats celebrate the memory of dear cretinous freakazoid rachel. Pity cindy shehag doesn’t join her in death. accidents do happen. Praise caterpiller tractors. God is good. Arabs are such wuss fighters straight up. They do better just blowing their sorry asses to smithereens and dead terrorist are not recidivists, eh? Why don’t you go to Gaza and be a human shield? The world’s IQ would improve with your demise. jajajaja. Assclowns of the world unite! Looks like Obama will continue the imperialistic wars. Jajaja. Death to pakistan? So sorry that your skanky ho’ rachel had to croak for her beliefs, albeit wrongheaded.

    aoibhneas (0c6cfc)

  129. Sleepy wrote:

    The defenses of Ben Gurion’s statements are defenses of racism (though the Palestinians and Jews are genetically almost identical). And Dana my comments were glib yes, but your “history” is just odd.. That you wrote it with a straight face is even stranger.

    Odd? Perhaps you can tell me where I erred; I assume that, by “odd,” you meant I had committed an error in that. Please, be specific.

    And it’s difficult for me to see any “racism” in Mr Ben Gurion’s statement; he stated what he thought the Arabs would do, based on Israeel’s actions, and said nothing about race or even culture. He seems to have gotten it right.

    The historically accurate Dana (556f76)

  130. Comment by sleepy — 12/28/2008 @ 5:18 pm

    sleepy, what are you arguing here? I don’t think you know anymore.

    Especially that second link, which refutes your “poor, put-upon Palestinians” line.

    Paul (creator of "Staunch Brayer") (ed9791)

  131. Sleepy wrote:

    And Sunni and Shia get along like Catholics and Protestants.

    Well, here in beautiful Jim Thorpe, Pennsylvania, St Joseph’s Catholic Church and St Paul’s (?) Lutheran Church are caddy-corner from each other at 6th and North Streets, and, at least thus far, neither one has lobbed a mortar at the other. And when another Lutheran Church burned down about ten miles north, “up the mountain,” rather than cheering the fact, our pastor asked for contributions to help the Lutheran Church rebuild.

    Perhaps you were thinking of the troubles in Ireland. If so, you should realize that those are political troubles that just happen to have a religious demarcation to them.

    The Catholic Dana (556f76)

  132. Sleepy wrote:

    Both Israel and Hamas have said they try not to target civilians.

    I’m curious: how does Hamas launch rockets rather indiscriminately across the border into Israel, rockets with no guidance systems, and try to avoid civilians?

    Another question: If Hamas is trying to avoid civilian casualties in firing rockets across the border, perhaps you could tell us what military objectives these rockets have? After all, if they are not targeting civilians, there must be a valid military target at which they are aimed. Could you tell us what these military targets are, or what military goals they hope to accomplish?

    Our friends on the left have been oh-so-upset that Israel has personally targeted terrorist leaders; somehow they seem to think that’s worse than going after the low-level fighters or the civilian populations among which they hide.

    The curious Dana (556f76)

  133. “God gave it to us”
    That was the only justification Ben Gurion gave. The rest of the quote is a list of reasons why Arabs would resist.

    As I said above, you’re flip-flopping between moral indignation and amoral extremism. So which is it? Morality or the Law of the Jungle?
    You seem to want to claim the Amoral High Ground but there’s no such thing.
    But if you’re arguing for the Jungle
    this is what you’re defending.
    Look closely
    So which is it? Do you care about “right” and “wrong” or not. Be honest, I’ll respect your response either way. The only thing I have no respect for in this imperfect world is hypocrisy.

    And please stop asking questions where the answers are in the posts and links above. Read them first and raise new questions if you want.

    sleepy (6b0755)

  134. Please don’t feed the troll. The answers are ignored and new items raised such as the Palestinians’ ability to provide fake news for willing media. The al Dura affair is one example. Lefty trolls are well known fellow travelers with Islamist terrorists. The Israelis turned Gaza over to the Pals and this is what they got. They actually left high tech greenhouses intact for a possible business opportunity for the Pals. They were immediately demolished. Dennis Ross has written that venture capitalists were ready to fund projects in the West Bank in 2000. All for nought. The Palestinians have a death wish. Hamas and the other groups have no idea how to govern.

    MIke K (2cf494)

  135. Sleepy, I think we should give you a chance. You are hereby promoted to Fantasy Secretary of State: what would you do, what solution would you propose, that you (seriously) believe both the Arabs and the Israelis could and would accept?

    The diplomatic Dana (556f76)

  136. I don’t argue with terrorist supporters. I just despise them as the craven evil that they are.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  137. The only thing I have no respect for in this imperfect world is hypocrisy.

    Plus the pile you habitually leave in your trousers each morning.

    Dmac (eb0dd0)

  138. The only thing I have no respect for in this imperfect world is hypocrisy.

    That’s rich, coming from a commenter that claims Jewish heritage, yet openly cheers for Muslims under orders to kill Jews on sight anywhere in the world.

    Paul (creator of "Staunch Brayer") (ed9791)

  139. Also, of course, the reason Hamas accepted the truce was on the understanding that the blockade would be lifted. It wasn’t.

    November 11 2008- The UN in the Gaza Strip says it will run out of food aid in two days unless Israel’s blockade – which it describes as “shameful and unacceptable” – eases.
    The UN refugee agency Unrwa, which distributes food to half of Gaza’s 1,5m people, called the blockade “a physical as well as a mental punishment”. Israel is now allowing a limited amount of fuel across the border, but it is still blocking food deliveries.
    It says it tightened sanctions because of rocket attacks by militants. The Islamist group Hamas, which controls Gaza, said the rockets were a response to an Israeli raid that killed six gunmen on 4 November. Gaza’s only power plant was closed on Monday, after Israel stopped fuel deliveries. Aid agencies estimate the new deliveries of fuel will run out within a day-and-a-half.

    There were small exchanges but the truce held.
    And far more Arab children than Israeli children have died over the past years. The blockade kills

    The World Health Organisation has reported 20 deaths in Gaza in the last three months of 2007 due to delays in accessing specialist healthcare. Five of the 20 casualties were children, including a five year-old boy with cancer whose treatment had been delayed for over two months. The Ministry of Health in the Gaza Strip has reported further deaths this year due to delays.

    SPQR: “I don’t argue with terrorist supporters.”
    You are a terrorist supporter.

    sleepy (6b0755)

  140. The blockade kills

    So do suicide bombers.

    Paul (creator of "Staunch Brayer") (ed9791)

  141. Morality or the Law of the Jungle?

    Either way, the camel-molesters lose.

    nk (2f022a)

  142. sleepy – craven and evil.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  143. “Do you care about “right” and “wrong” or not.”

    Sure. It was wrong for the Arabic-speaking Muslims to conquer Israel.

    The Israelis have repaired that wrong.

    And, once we’ve driven the Muslims out of other places that don’t belong to them (Alexandria, Damascus, Constantinople, etc.) more wrongs will have been righted.

    Glad to see you’re interested in such concepts.

    Dave Surls (64bca4)

  144. Gaza would have a peaceful and prosperous existance the moment that the Palestinians decide to live in peace with their neighbors. They have decided not to and they are reaping the consequences of their actions. Only craven and evil people make the distorted moral equivalencies we seen from the despicable like “sleepy”.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  145. sleepy claims he is a Jew, but I think that is only because he lives in a community with a large Jewish segment, and wishes to “fit in”. He is actually an Iranian, and having denied his religion (Islam) he has attained the status of apostate.
    All of the faith should react with jihad against him as an infidel who should suffer the wrath of the faithful.
    This I have decreed…
    signed The Grand Mufti of Kalifornia

    Another Drew (wwbkaADitcy) (d8d174)

  146. You are a terrorist supporter.

    You are an anti – Semite. Get out of here, Himmler.

    Dmac (eb0dd0)

  147. Hamas’s propaganda minister must have been killed because Hamas has not claiming that Israel is bombing wedding parties.

    Perfect Sense (9d1b08)

  148. “Humanity” didn’t originate in the Fertile Crescent.

    Nobody here said it did, dipwad.

    Maybe you’re confusing the Fertile Crescent with Olduvai Gorge, in Tanzania.

    Not bloody likely. That I am confusing the Fertile Crescent with the Olduvai Gorge, that is.

    And blond haired blue eyed Jews are the result of intermarriage, or at least getting laid outside the tribe.

    And just how many of your ‘friends’ did you have to poll to come up with that less than stellar insight?

    SPQR is right, but in addition to being craven and a bona fide supporter of evil, you’re dumber than a box of rocks as well.

    EW1(SG) (e27928)

  149. here
    From Gaza

    sleepy (6b0755)

  150. The only good Hamas member, is a dead Hamas member.

    Kill them all, let God sort it out.

    Another Drew (wwbkaADitcy) (d8d174)

  151. Sleepy, I’ll ask you again. Rather than hit us with a bunch of examples of how terrible this Israeli action is — we all know that war is bad and people get hurt and killed in war — tell us what your solution is.

    The pages of Foreign Affairs have been filled with proposed “solutions” to the Arab-Israeli conflict for decades; it seems that every academic, every diplomat, and not a few national leaders have written in the pages of that most prestigious of journals, yet none of them have been able to come up with anything that has worked, or come close to working.

    The entire problem can be broken down into two mutually exclusive goals:

    1 – The Israelis want to have a free, secure, Jewish state in part of the Levant; and
    2 – The Arabs see the entire Levant as their homeland, and want to control all of it.

    Both goals cannot be accommodated; those are intractable demands of the two sides, and for war to end, one side must win, and one side must lose.

    Now, please, tell me how you solve this.

    The persistant Dana (556f76)

  152. Lord love you, Dana. But you surely know that this kind of trollery isn’t about a solution that solves both sides, any more than Hamas has that in mind.

    Keeping in mind that Israel tried to accommodate the Palestinians, and was rejected by Arafat.

    Oh, wait, that must be more Jooooo propaganda.

    Dana, your two goals are indeed the issue, and our Leftward leaning friends won’t accept that fact.

    Anyway, it is amazing to me to see how missiles coming out of Gaza are of little interest to the Left, and missiles going into Gaza are suddenly of great interest to the Left.

    And here we thought it was about peace. What I see is a studied lack of interest in the actions and goals of one side, and a hypersensitive criticism of the other.

    This troll is yet another example.

    Eric Blair (9294a8)

  153. #153 The persistent Dana:

    2 – The Arabs see the entire Levant as their homeland, and want to control kill all of it Jews.

    Fixed that for ‘ya.

    EW1(SG) (e27928)

  154. “I’ll ask you again…”
    Again? Sorry, I must have missed it.

    A bi-national state, of course.
    I’ve never lived in a country that even pretended to be anything other than multi-ethnic. I don’t support the National Front, in England or France. I don’t support rightist nationalists in any country, but liberal American Zionists support Israel using the same logic Jean-Marie Le Pen uses in France. You want liberal hypocrisy? There it is.
    And as to how to achieve it, the Israelis are doing just that, by destroying any hope of a viable independent Palestine. Israel is becoming an apartheid state, full stop. A single state is going to be the only solution.
    It will happen, the only question is when.

    sleepy (6b0755)

  155. But, sleepy, Israel is a multi-ethnic state where Arabs have full citizenship rights living alongside Israeli Jews.
    A bi-national state cannot exist, for it would not be a “state”.
    Perhaps you want to revert to a U.N.Mandate status where everyone will be equally miserable?
    Since Israeli Arabs have the same rights and privileges as do Israeli Jews, where is the apartheid?
    Are Israeli Arab citizens being forcibly deported to other lands?
    You have some serious issue problems you need to work on before you try to suggest how others should believe, and live.

    Another Drew (wwbkaADitcy) (d8d174)

  156. A bi-national state, of course.

    The Palestinians already have a state — Jordan. Palestinians claim to desire a second state composed of the West Bank and Gaza.

    Now you’re telling us that’s not enough? They also need to have the land of Israel as well?

    There are 56 Muslim nations, and only one Jewish nation. When all Jews and Christians have equal rights in every Islamic country Jordan, then the world can consider a bi-national state for Israel.

    aunursa (e9b1f7)

  157. When all Jews and Christians have equal rights in every Islamic country including Saudi Arabia and Jordan, then the world can consider a bi-national state for Israel.

    aunursa (e9b1f7)

  158. The contradiction is that the average Israeli Arab has more rights in Israel, than the average Arab does in Jordan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, etc.

    Another Drew (wwbkaADitcy) (d8d174)

  159. “But, sleepy, Israel is a multi-ethnic state where Arabs have full citizenship rights living alongside Israeli Jews.”

    No. It is a “Jewish State” with an Arab population that is discriminated against in services and housing. The Jewish National Fund owns most of the land in Israel and it is leased out. There is very little private land ownership. Education and medical services for Arabs are weaker. They are second class citizens, in practice and law. There is a refugee population of ust under 4 million of which one million are in camps. The west bank has been under military occupation for 40 years. And Gaza is in lockdown.

    sleepy (6b0755)

  160. A troll writes, about Israel:

    “..It is a “Jewish State” with an Arab population that is discriminated against in services and housing….”

    Sort of like Lebanon, then. But that is different of course. It’s not run by Jooooooos.

    Scratch a Leftist, find an anti-Semite.

    Eric Blair (9294a8)

  161. #73 Comment by sleepy — 12/28/2008 @ 10:52 am

    Nine [should be ten, as corrected by Icy Texan #78]Israeli civilians have been killed by rockets fired from Gaza since September 2005.
    1,400 Palestinians in Gaza have been killed by Israeli security forces since that time…

    And yet Hamas terrorists keep pounding away. Aside from ideology or moral imperatives, this is a highly retarded tactic.

    In short, it is not working, but despite the bloodshed and lack of any tactical gain, they continue. The amoral mentality of the Hamas terrorists (and their supporters, apologists and sympathizers) is revealed.

    Pons Asinorum (5fa803)

  162. Comment by sleepy — 12/28/2008 @ 2:34 pm
    You lie like a rug kid. Or maybe you’re just making it up as you go along, like I.T.

    – Wow! Yet another non sequiter/ad hominem attack sentence . . . followed by not a single response to my deconstruction of your unsupportable points.

    The mark of a true chickenshit liberal.

    Icy Texan (b7d162)

  163. Oh, and guess what? A Palestinian rocket killed an Israeli construction worker today. But that’s alright because the NON-random Israeli attacks on Hamas MILITARY targets killed more people, right?

    Icy Texan (b7d162)

  164. The more Palestinians die the more world moves away from any defense of Israeli policies and the more isolated Israel becomes.
    And the death toll is nearing 300 to 1.

    IT: “Wow! Yet another non sequiter” [sic]
    No boychik, I gave the rest of what Ben Gurion said as context.
    The kid’s argument made no sense. The common understanding of that famous quote is clear enough. And you haven’t made one coherent point yourself so why respond?
    But here’s one by you, in re Egypt:
    “Define what you mean by “backed”. Also, note that the US welcomes and supports the rise of democracy in all parts of the world.”
    $50 billion later, taking stock of US aid to Egypt
    That’s just the first one to pop up. You could use google yourself if you cared to. I’m not going to waste my time answering every idiot rant.
    I’m wasting enough time as it is.
    And I’m tired of the insults. It would be nice I suppose if one of you could make one coherent argument that wasn’t founded on chest thumping racism, but you can’t. You call others criminals but your arguments begin with a crime that continues to this day: the expulsion of Palestinians from their homes. Don’t argue with me, argue with David Ben Gurion.
    If this country were under military occupation you’d all be defending suicide bombers. You’d be Hamas.
    That’s the joke.

    sleepy (6b0755)

  165. Whatever you say, Goebbels.

    Dmac (eb0dd0)

  166. The more Palestinians die the more world moves away from any defense of Israeli policies and the more isolated Israel becomes.

    Anyone who did not complain last week when Hamas launched 200 missiles at Israel is not in position to question the Israeli response.

    aunursa (1b5bad)

  167. sleepy – As far as I am aware there are just two conditions that Israel insists on for peace with Hamas, neither of which Hamas is willing to live with:

    1) Stop bombing and attacking Israel

    2) Recognize Israel’s right to exist

    Am I going to fast for you? It’s really quite simple if you think about it. If one side won’t stop attacking and has pledged the annihilation of the other, isn’t retaliation eventually to be expected? Can you make a case that “disproportionate” response of the type Israel is engage in is somehow illegal under international law? I don’t think you can.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  168. Evidently not tired enough of insults to stop using them.

    SPQR (72771e)

  169. It would be nice I suppose if one of you could make one coherent argument that wasn’t founded on chest thumping racism, but you can’t.

    You keep using that word, racism. Explain.

    Arab is not a race. Islam is not a race. Palestinian is not a race.

    Pablo (99243e)

  170. Using the language of rights the Unites States has a “right” to exist only as a republic. If it were to become a monarchy or dictatorship it would no longer have that right, though it would continue to exist: facts are facts. Saudi Arabia has no “right to exist,” it simply exists and we have to accommodate that fact. How much? That’s a question of the debate between necessity and morality.
    Israel is founded on a division between Jewish and non-jewish citizens relations defined as separate and unequal.
    There can be moral no justification for this. Israel -defined as the government and laws of Israel as they exist- has no more “right to exist” no more moral justification than the government of Saudi Arabia or Syria.
    Got me? It’s as simple as A-B-C.
    Your moral relativism is an obscenity.

    sleepy (6b0755)

  171. “Your moral relativism is an obscenity.”

    sleepy – The moral relativism is all yours.
    Take off your blinders.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  172. I’m not going to waste my time answering every idiot rant.
    I’m wasting enough time as it is.

    Yes and I have a solution. It involves you and a bridge and placing one back beneath the other.

    Most trolls lie but this one sounds like a CAIR member.

    Mike K (2cf494)

  173. We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.–That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, –That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

    sleepy (6b0755)

  174. Sleepy= Noam Chomsky wannabe.
    How much area in region does Israel take up? six per cent I think. They managed to transform a challenging environment into productive oasis. Gaza was ok until Palis took over and ruined whatever good it had.

    Bet Sleepy buys the stories of Joooos eating Arab babies and harvesting Pali organs. Palis only get most aid per capita, let’s give even more.

    aoibhneas (0c6cfc)

  175. Sleepy= Noam Chomsky wannabe.
    How much area in region does Israel take up? six per cent I think. They managed to transform a challenging environment into productive oasis. Gaza was ok until Palis took over and ruined whatever good it had.

    Bet Sleepy buys the stories of Joooos eating Arab babies and harvesting Pali organs. Palis only get most aid per capita, let’s give even more.

    aoibhneas (0c6cfc)

  176. Folks, this is just a troll…and probably one we have heard from before. The goal is to stir people up.

    Dmac has the right idea, with a hip-hop beat:

    I say “sleepy”
    You say “Nazi”

    It’s just as bright as its own posts.

    Notice how it never addresses how Palestinians are treated in Lebanon? Speaking of second class citizens. But that doesn’t count, because of the tiresome anti-Semitism it displays.

    Eric Blair (9294a8)

  177. Don’t they care about their own people?

    Comment by Icy Texan — 12/27/2008 @ 12:45 pm
    No they don’t. They are dogs. I commend the Israeli force for showing themselves true descendants of Abraham. I hope Obama is able to be that decisive when it comes to protecting US lives. This is war!

    love2008 (1b037c)

  178. No they don’t. They are dogs. I commend the Israeli force for showing themselves true descendants of Abraham. I hope Obama is able to be that decisive when it comes to protecting US lives. This is war!

    Is this supposed to be sarcasm? I can’t tell anymore.

    aunursa (1b5bad)

  179. In reviewing lovie’s recent posts, it seems that it needs to have its’ meds adjusted to smooth out the excessive poli-mood swings it is subjecting us to.

    Another Drew (wwbkaADitcy) (209453)

  180. “Notice how it never addresses how Palestinians are treated in Lebanon? ”

    Palestinians are in refugee camps in Lebanon. The are limited in their right of employment and discriminated against in any number of other ways. They are treated as unwelcome guests.
    I talked about this up the thread (early). Imagine Michigan not a a state but as a small country with a comparably large refugee crisis. And all this on a site where everyone goes on about illegal aliens?
    Again, this is all basic logic and politics.
    But I quote the Declaration of Independence and get called a Nazi.
    Brilliant.

    sleepy (954503)

  181. You quote the Declaration of Independence, but you single out the Jewish state and ignore the 52 Islamic states that treat Jews and Christians as second class citizens — except for Saudi Arabia and Jordan, where it’s illegal for Jews to be citizens.

    When you complain with equal vigor about the human rights abuses that are far, far worse than anything real or imaginary being done by Israel, then you will be taken seriously.

    aunursa (1b5bad)

  182. When you complain with equal vigor about the human rights abuses being done by Islamic governments against non-Muslims that are far, far worse than anything real or imaginary being done by Israel, then you will be taken seriously.

    aunursa (1b5bad)

  183. I grant to sleepy that he is not a NAZi…
    He is just a FOOL!

    Another Drew (wwbkaADitcy) (209453)

  184. AD, what disturbs me the most is how these palestinian terrorist apologists so clearly display a warped self-loathing to be able to parrot this garbage.

    SPQR (72771e)

  185. Comment by Another Drew (wwbkaADitcy) — 12/29/2008 @ 11:34 am
    Yes I am always taking my meds, religiously. I hope you are taking yours promptly. You know how it is when you miss it once.

    love2008 (1b037c)

  186. The troll was complaining above about all those wounded overwhelming the Gaza hospitals. This might be of interest.

    RAFAH, Egypt (AFP) – Egypt on Sunday blamed Hamas for not letting hundreds of Palestinians wounded by Israeli air strikes leave the Gaza Strip for treatment, with dozens of empty ambulances waiting on the border.

    More than 270 Palestinians have been killed and 600 wounded since Israel began hammering the Gaza Strip with air strikes on Saturday, but no wounded have yet left via Rafah, the Hamas-ruled territory’s only Arab border crossing.

    “No one has come in, we don’t know why they’re closed on the other side,” a senior border security official told AFP. Several plane- and truck-loads of aid are also waiting to be allowed into the Gaza Strip, a security official said.

    “The wounded are barred from crossing” into Egypt, Foreign Minister Ahmed Abul Gheit said in Cairo, blaming “those who control Gaza. We are waiting for the wounded to cross.”

    In the divided town of Rafah, the road leading to the border crossing was lined with 20 riot police vehicles, an AFP correspondent reported, with 40 ambulances and several pick-ups full of medicine waiting to cross into Gaza.

    Yeah, that Israeli blockade is terrible. Except this is the border with Egypt.

    A security official said that an Egyptian plane with 50 doctors on board as well as medical supplies had arrived in nearby El-Arish. Two Qatari aircraft carrying 50 tonnes of medical supplies were waiting at the same airport.

    Saudi Arabia’s King Abdullah has also ordered three planeloads of medical aid to the Gaza Strip via Egypt, MENA said, and offered to airlift the wounded.

    “The Rafah border crossing was opened by the Egyptians yesterday, but no Hamas people showed up” on the other side, an Israeli military spokesman said.

    This is Egypt, not Israel, mind you. Also, most Arab countries have condemned Hamas. They see Hamas as an arm of Iran and Iran is a threat. Ironically, the Hamas attacks on Israel may do more to solve the isolation of Israel in the Middle East than all the peace process. The Arab states are threatened by Iran. They supported Saddam because he was a defender of the Arabs. The Israelis may now take his place as the Arab states best defener against Iran. Remember, Syria is ruled by a Shia. Assad is a member of the Alawite sect which is Shia. I could see the Iran-Syria axis and their surrogates, Hezbollah and Hamas, bringing a reassessment of Israel by the Arabs, especially if Obama starts a pullback by the US.

    Mike K (f89cb3)

  187. Is this supposed to be sarcasm?

    Comment by aunursa — 12/29/2008 @ 11:29 am
    Nope. I have been more sober. (hic!)

    love2008 (1b037c)

  188. Sleepy offers no solution but the elimination of Israel. He can quote the Decleration of Independence, the Constitution, and the Gettysburg Address all he likes but he’s still a Nazi at heart.

    East Bay Jim (2fd7f7)

  189. Palestinians are in refugee camps in Lebanon. The are limited in their right of employment and discriminated against in any number of other ways. They are treated as unwelcome guests.

    For what, 60 years now? That’s some brotherly love.

    Meanwhile, checking in on the Palestinian president:

    In a news conference today from Cairo, Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas placed the blame for the violence in the Gaza Strip squarely on the shoulders of Hamas.

    Pablo (99243e)

  190. Comment by love2008 — 12/29/2008 @ 1:14 pm
    Error! Should read “I have never been more sober..”

    love2008 (1b037c)

  191. ““The Rafah border crossing was opened by the Egyptians yesterday, but no Hamas people showed up” on the other side, an Israeli military spokesman said.”

    Why was it closed earlier? Because it’s almost always closed. Hamas is accepting doctors and supplies but not evacuation. I;m not agreeing necessarily but it makes some sense: no capitulation.

    Here’s another Nazi, just like me, Nir Rosen

    “Once again, the Israelis bomb the starving and imprisoned population of Gaza. The world watches the plight of 1.5 million Gazans live on TV and online; the western media largely justify the Israeli action. Even some Arab outlets try to equate the Palestinian resistance with the might of the Israeli military machine. And none of this is a surprise. The Israelis just concluded a round-the-world public relations campaign to gather support for their assault, even gaining the collaboration of Arab states

    And another Israeli Jewish Nazi Amira Hass

    It’s a big prison, and it has been so for the last 18 years, because this policy is not new, it’s only accumulative. Just imagine that you are confined to a place and not allowed to leave . . . ever. When you are in prison, you know you have five years, 20 years, you have a date. Even if it’s forever, but it’s clear. Here people don’t know how long will this last and this is, I think, the main feature that dictates people’s lives, and the feeling of despair and being suffocated. Nobody can really live like this.

    sleepy (954503)

  192. GENEVA: The international Red Cross says three trucks carrying blood and other medical supplies have crossed into Gaza where hospitals are struggling to treat hundreds of people injured in Israeli attacks.
    The Geneva-based International Committee of the Red Cross says Palestinian Red Crescent ambulances from Jerusalem also arrived in Gaza on Monday.
    About 315 people in Gaza are estimated to have died and about 1,400 have been wounded in Israeli attacks since they began Saturday.
    ICRC spokeswoman Dorothea Krimitsas says the latest shipment of medical supplies follows an earlier delivery Sunday but is unlikely to cover the needs of Gaza’s hospitals.
    Krimitsas said an ICRC team was on its way to Gaza’s largest hospital to assess its needs.

    sleepy (954503)

  193. If sleepy/wheezy/dumby/whatever, had taken the link I provided in #115, he would have found this headline…
    Egyptians open fire on Palestinians

    With friends like the Egyptians, the Pali’s don’t need any enemies.

    Another Drew (wwbkaADitcy) (209453)

  194. and another thing….
    All I can say to the continuing campaign by the IDF against Hamas:

    GO! GO! GO!

    Another Drew (wwbkaADitcy) (209453)

  195. Hamas Promises Crucifixion For Traitors

    December 26, 2008: Hamas, the Islamic radical group that controls the Gaza, has enacted a new law that allows for Islamic punishments for those who violate Sharia (Islamic law). This includes cutting off the hands of thieves, whipping those caught drinking alcohol, and crucifying traitors (the new law has a broad interpretation of treason).

    Pablo (99243e)

  196. Sleepy: Quoting deranged Jews and Israelis to justify your hostility to Israel’s taking actions to defend her citizens against Palestinian terrorism is akin to quoting deranged American leftists to prove that the United States is the most tyranical and destructive country in world history.

    aunursa (1b5bad)

  197. But see, aunursa, that character thinks so already.

    Eric Blair (9294a8)

  198. Speaking of deranged:

    “…Again, this is all basic logic and politics….”

    Right. When an Arab does it, it is understandable. When a Jew does it, it is apartheid.

    Personally, I think it is a weird version of racism by the Left: the poor unenlightened Arabs just can’t be expected to be held to civilized standards, don’t you know? Besides, whatever the Arabs do is never their own fault or responsibility. The Joooos made them do it.

    Besides, the Arabs were the picture of comity and brotherhood until those nasty Christians arrived.

    The Narrative continues.

    Eric Blair (9294a8)

  199. I’m getting lazy. I’m outsourcing my writing now. This will be it for awhile

    Almost every Arab media outlet, even those bitterly hostile to Hamas, is running bloody images from Gaza. But as with the 2006 Hezbollah war, Arab responses are enmeshed within deeply entrenched inter-Arab conflicts, dividing sharply between pro-U.S. regimes and the vast majority of expressed public opinion. One key divide revolves around the portrayal of the Arab regimes, with one side blasting Arab governments for what they are calling complicity with the Israeli attack and the other trying to create the impression that Arab leaders are working to formulate a collective response. As protests escalate, this dividing line will likely intensify.

    I’m arguing with stupid racists. As with the silly legal hypothetical last week, which was cut and dried as far as the law is concerned, emotions are assumed to lead over intellect. The law as written in those cases was supposed to be unfair in some way. But it wasn’t unfair, only disinterested, as it was designed to be. But you like revenge. Frustration and anger over past wrongs [what they are I don't know] are the foundation for everything else. And the pleasure in that means saying
    “No, punk 1+1+5!” followed by a fist in the face.
    is your idea of being “right.” Cheap moralism or rank amorality, it’s ll the same. If this were a chess game it have been over long since. But it’s not. That’s something I keep having to remind myself.

    sleepy (954503)

  200. Skeezy will not be silenced until the concentration camps are immediately re – opened and are restored to full operational ability. They always come first for the Jooos…

    Dmac (eb0dd0)

  201. I’m arguing with stupid racists.

    Skeezy has mastered the art of projection, but not comprehension. Keep at it, Skeezy – you’ll get there someday; but watch out with that skinhead look, it only looks acceptable at tattoo parlors these days.

    Dmac (eb0dd0)

  202. “But I quote the Declaration of Independence and get called a Nazi.”

    You mean the declaration of independence that was written by a bunch of guys who sailed from Europe over to America, drove the Indians off their land and set up their own country where the Indians used to be?

    Or, are we talking about a different declaration of independence?

    Dave Surls (e856e7)

  203. Hey Dmac, Dave…

    Where have we heard this before:

    “..This will be it for awhile…”

    Hmmmm….

    Eric Blair (9294a8)

  204. And here is some clear thinking (and some familiar pro-Hamas arguments) from someone I guarantee is smarter and better informed than any given troll:

    http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2008_12_28-2009_01_03.shtml#1230579365

    Worth reading.

    Eric Blair (9294a8)

  205. Second verse, same as the first.

    Dmac (eb0dd0)

  206. Comment by Eric Blair — 12/29/2008 @ 3:47 pm
    I wonder if he’s taking a break to practice his “scratch” golf game, to have some quality time with his “Lake Woebegone” children, or does he have to spend some time overseeing that world-wide ex-im business?

    Sure does sound familiar in all of its’ denseness.

    Another Drew (wwbkaADitcy) (209453)

  207. I think that are some…multifaceted…trolls around here of late, AD.

    And honestly. Stealing sources from Greenwald? That’s just lazy.

    Eric Blair (9294a8)

  208. Sleepy responded:

    A bi-national state, of course.

    Perhaps you’ve forgotten why Zionism began, why Israel was formed as a particularly Jewish state. It is because, after 1,800 years in the diaspora, 1,800 years of trying to fit in and get along, we good Christians found every pretext there was to kill them. The Nazis were unique only in intensity and kill-ratios, but the entire history of western and eastern Europe is one splattered liberally with Tsarist pogromi and English killings and German dispossessions.

    The Jews finally chose to follow Theodore Herzl’s ideas because they realized that they would never be safe in anyplace where they depended upon the tolerance of others to guarantee their safety.

    A binational state in the Levant would soon be majority Palestinian. Have you noticed how tolerant that other Arab states are of dissenters, of non-Muslims?

    There would be no modern state of Israel today had other people proven trustworthy hosts.

    The historian Dana (556f76)

  209. Dear Dana… Just remember that between the facts and the brain of a troll you will find a series of filters. Howard Zinn comes to mind.

    And never ever forget that only Western civilization does bad things.

    Eric Blair (9294a8)

  210. Sleepy in #172, Israel has a right to exist, the United States has a right to exist, Iran has a right to exist, the right of each secured by conquest.

    Let’s be honest here: virtually every nation on earth — perhaps someplace like Iceland would be an exception — has the ruling people it does and the government it does because at some point the people in charge conquered the people who were running the place before them. We good Americans exist because white settlers moved here and conquered, exiled and mostly exterminated the Indian populations already here. That’s the way of the world. The entire Western hemisphere is that way.

    Israel has a perfect right to conquer the land it wants, just as the Palestinians have a perfect right to conquer the Israelis if they can. Given a choice, I’d rather see the Israelis conquer the Arabs than the other way around.

    The historian Dana (556f76)

  211. “Israel has a perfect right to conquer the land it wants, just as the Palestinians have a perfect right to conquer the Israelis if they can. Given a choice, I’d rather see the Israelis conquer the Arabs than the other way around.”

    My sentiments exactly.

    Dave Surls (e856e7)

  212. This brings it down to brass tacks:

    http://jeffreygoldberg.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/12/the_gaza_war.php

    Of course, it is written by a Jooooooo….

    Eric Blair (9294a8)

  213. Comment by The historian Dana — 12/29/2008 @ 4:48 pm

    Uhh, wasn’t Iceland settled by the Vikings?

    Another Drew (wwbkaADitcy) (209453)

  214. I hope you all saw this, for comic relief…

    http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/32311_Death_to_All_Juice#rss

    Eric Blair (9294a8)

  215. Comment by Eric Blair — 12/29/2008 @ 5:10 pm

    It’s sneezy!

    Another Drew (wwbkaADitcy) (209453)

  216. #166: abandon terrorism as a tactic, which by your own facts has failed (maybe try peaceful operations).
    #172: does not justify the murder of Israeli civilians.
    #182: easily solved by stopping Hamas terrorist operations designed to murder Israeli civilians.
    #193: easily solved by stopping Hamas terrorist operations designed to murder Israeli civilians.
    #194: easily solved by stopping Hamas terrorist operations designed to murder Israeli civilians.
    #201: easily solved by stopping Hamas terrorist operations designed to murder Israeli civilians.

    The Palestinian people are in trouble.

    I mean forget about right and wrong momentarily; strictly has a martial tactic, a loss- exchange of hundreds to one, for absolutely no material or tactical gain (indeed losses, if international aid-suspensions and economic growth-impediments are factored) is unintelligent. Yet they continue. Hatred does have the kind of power to overcome intelligent policy, and perhaps that is what is being played-out before us.

    If true, then the Palestinian culture is so warped and twisted, I think its subscribers cannot survive. Already this culture has begun by justifying murder (schoolbooks or videos developed for Palestinian children, for example) as part of its moral fabric.

    If the Palestinian people could abandon the idiotic “second intifada”, eliminate their true enemy Hamas (thereby immediately reducing the death-rate of their children), and return to peace; then they just might make it. Listen to terrorist supporter like Sleepy, the rate of suffering and misery will continue at an accelerated pace until the culture dissolves (as is inevitable under such circumstances).

    Pons Asinorum (5fa803)

  217. Not sure what I did, but these are links did not come through:

    …international aid-suspensions and economic growth-impediments…
    http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article4684.shtml

    …schoolbooks or videos developed for Palestinian children…
    http://www.pmw.org.il/

    Pons Asinorum (5fa803)

  218. What’s really the argument here? The Hamas don’t want peace with Israel. That will never happen. No one can solve this problem. No president nor world leader. This crisis has no end. There will never be peace in the middle east. The Hamas has only one aim, the destruction of the Jewish nation. That is a hatred that is ingrained in them from childhood. They will not stop till the achieve their stated objective. On the other hand, Israel won’t just fold their hands and wait to be the destroyed. So this won’t end. The person that will succeed in making peace in the middle-east is the anti-Christ. That will win him the trust and support of the world, including the jews. For a while until he reveals his true colors. This will make way for the worst genocide in human history. Worst than the holocaust itself. He will turn against the Jews and show himself to be the worst enemy of the children of Jacob. These things have been written. Nothing will change it. This conflict is nothing compared to the ones coming. But know this, your position on this conflict, who you support, reveals your place in these end times. Those who hate God, support all those who hate and seek the destruction of the Jewish nations. Those who support them (the Jews) are on God’s side. It’s your choice.

    love2008 (1b037c)

  219. “Uhh, wasn’t Iceland settled by the Vikings?”

    Yeah, but they didn’t have to conquer or drive out the locals before they settled it…seeing as how there weren’t no locals.

    Dave Surls (e856e7)

  220. Dave you’d blame the Jews for the destruction of the Warsaw ghetto. But they fought and died for freedom.
    That was the point. That was their victory.

    sleepy (6b0755)

  221. They still are fighting and dying for Freedom…(only this time, they are doing much better defending their people).

    Pons Asinorum (5fa803)

  222. How come so many “conservatives” on the Internet are actually Jews who think American blood has to be shed for Israel? Why do I give a shit about Israel? Seriously, why the hell should I give a shit abour your cousins in Israel? What happened in Europe is none of myt doing. Get the fuck over it, would you?

    Real American (f0643a)

  223. If the Arabs kill the Jews, why do I care? If the Jews kill the Arabs, why do I care? This is not my fight. They are not fighting for freedom. This is an old religious fight, and I couldn’t give a rat’s ass in hell who wins or loses, except that I want to stay the hell out of it.

    Real American (f0643a)

  224. Gosh, folks, who do you all think Real American sounds like? Maybe not. But you have to admit it sounds familiar!

    Eric Blair (9294a8)

  225. “How come so many “conservatives” on the Internet are actually Jews who think American blood has to be shed for Israel?”

    Real American – Actually a lot of conservative on the internet are not Jews but feel that supporting Israel is the right thing to do for the United States and that jihadi bois like the lying commenter sleepy is just typical of a species of self-loathing Jews who find it brave or politically correct to criticize Israel on the internet.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  226. This is not my fight. They are not fighting for freedom.

    No, a fight between Western Civilization and barbarism has nothing to do with freedom.

    Idiot.

    And as a postscipt, I recognize that totally inappropriate nic from someplace…but I can’t remember off the top of my head if it’s a moby, a troll, or just plain stupid.

    EW1(SG) (e27928)

  227. Going from “Horrible Leftist” to “Real American” is a bit obvious.

    Eric Blair (9294a8)

  228. What if I don’t give a shit about Jews any more or less than anyone else? Why the fuck should American lives be sacrificed for Jews halfway around the world? What interest is it of ours? There are lots of people who get a raw deal. Let them take care of themselves.

    Real American (f0643a)

  229. No, a fight between Western Civilization and barbarism has nothing to do with freedom.

    Since when are Jews “western civilization?”

    Real American (f0643a)

  230. “This is not my fight.”

    Hey, the Pals have murdered lots of Americans. So have their friends (Hezbollah, Al Qaida).

    Now, they all have to die.

    Dave Surls (a608a5)

  231. “Why the fuck should American lives be sacrificed for Jews halfway around the world?”

    Real American – Where is this happening right now?

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  232. ‘Since when are Jews “western civilization?”’

    Since Abraham had his little pow-wow with the Big Man Upstairs.

    Dave Surls (a608a5)

  233. “If the Arabs kill the Jews, why do I care?”

    Real American – Carter is that you? I thought you were supposed to be on tour with Mandela and Tutu. Say hello to Rosalynn for me Jimmy.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  234. Since Abraham had his little pow-wow with the Big Man Upstairs.

    Someone wants to get into a religious war, they’re on their own. Arabs, Jews, who the fuck cares? Americans need to stay out of it. Be neutral. Israel is fucked, and so are the Arabs, but the Arabs have oil.

    Real American (f0643a)

  235. “How come so many “conservatives” on the Internet are actually Jews who think American blood has to be shed for Israel?”

    Who’s a conservative? If I was a conservative on this issue I’d want to conserve Hamas and Fatah. But, I don’t want to conserve them, I want to liquidate them (that’s commiespeak for “kill them all”). On this issue I’m definitely a progressive.

    Dave Surls (a608a5)

  236. “Israel is fucked, and so are the Arabs, but the Arabs have oil.”

    SHEER GENIUS!!!!!!!!

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  237. Why the fuck should American lives be sacrificed for Jews halfway around the world?

    At least your antipathy to Israel isn’t predicated on a phony belief that you’re humane and compassionate. You’re an SOB, and you’re honest enough to admit it.

    What irritates me the most about liberals (aka “progressives”) who believe Palestinians (or Middle Easterners in general) deserve so much leeway and tears while Israel deserves nothing but a cold shoulder, is such people’s sense that their viewpoint is due to kind-heartedness, egalitarianism, and a respect for the supposed underdog. Irritating because such an ideology is anything but what they like to think it is.

    Mark (411533)

  238. [...] Read the original:  Comment on Why So Many Civilian Casualties? The L.A. Times Will Tell You . . . Eventually by Rob Cra… [...]

    Comment on Why So Many Civilian Casualties? The L.A. Times Will Tell You . . . Eventually by Rob Crawford | All About Fishing (23dec6)

  239. “Americans need to stay out of it.”

    Too late for that. Dozens of Americans have already been killed by Pal terrorists (and a whole lot more by Pal allies like Hezbollah and Al Qaida). Where the hell have you been for the past 35 years?

    Dave Surls (a608a5)

  240. #224 Comment by Real American — 12/29/2008 @ 9:36 pm

    Why do I give a shit about Israel?

    It begins with the Greatest Generation.

    They marched and fought together in a global war that today’s generation cannot even imagine. They bled and died in Europe in such numbers that their sorrow cannot be adequately expressed with written words. Then they liberated the concentration camps; so repulsive was this to these men (despite being hardened by the horrors of war), that they vowed that this – global war – would never happen again.

    They succeeded.

    Among the many things they did, was to create Israel and Jordan, as a matter of conscience and healing.

    Yes, this region of the world has been at war since before the birth of Islam and even before the birth of Judaism. Nevertheless, the Greatest Generation recognized that Peace must come here to this region (real peace that is not solely defined by “a lack of violence”). Their wisdom was based on their experiences of fighting a World War.

    We reject their wisdom at our peril.

    We Americans have decided not to squander what the Greatest Generation learned and crafted at such great cost. We decided to stand by a fellow democratic and free nation, try to build a world that rejects terrorism, and we decided to keep a promise made to these people.

    What happened in Europe is none of myt doing.

    The events of WWII were none of your doing, but the events of today are. Your lack of support for one side is by default support for the other side.

    Get the fuck over it, would you?

    It never ended, except for fools.

    Pons Asinorum (5fa803)

  241. Notice that there are two places in the Middle East where the folks who live there can vote about their future.

    Israel is one of those places.

    Iraq is the other.

    Notice the lack of support from the Left for either of those places.

    It’s interesting that the only places that Arabs can vote in the Middle East is either of those two locations.

    Eric Blair (9294a8)

  242. “Now, they all have to die.”

    Clarification: All the TERRORISTS have to die.

    Dave Surls (a608a5)

  243. Is it my imagination, or did all the trolls fall silent at about the same time?

    Eric Blair (9294a8)

  244. Well it is past their bedtime ;-)

    Pons Asinorum (5fa803)

  245. wow, I go out for a drink and look what happens.
    Just so you know, the Israelis originally helped support religious fundamentalist organizations as a way of undermining Fatah, which was and is secular.
    And of course the first terrorists in the middle east were the Stern Gang, who blew up the King david Hotel. Begin and Shamir started their careers as terrorists.

    And these lectures about freedom are just hilarious.

    off to bed

    sleepy (8e67a0)

  246. “And of course the first terrorists in the middle east were the Stern Gang”

    Obviously he’s never heard of the Romans, the Turks, or the Mongols.

    Big shock.

    Dave Surls (a608a5)

  247. Every “real American” supports Israel. Except of course the “fake Americans.”

    love2008 (0c8c2c)

  248. The King David Hotel house the British military command, making it a legitimate military target. The bombers called ahead to warn the hotel to evacuate.

    I challenge you to share the last time Hamas, Hezbollah, or any other Islamic terrorist group sought to avoid civilian casualties.

    aunursa (1b5bad)

  249. #249 sounds like a strawman sockpuppet.

    aunursa (1b5bad)

  250. sleepy is just chock full of obsolete anti-Israel propaganda and myths. He sounds like he woke up after doing a Rip Van Winkle starting in ’67.

    SPQR (72771e)

  251. Israel called Gaza residents to warn them before the bombing.

    Robert Spencer asks: When did Hamas warn Israeli civilians before bombing civilian areas? For that matter, when has any other nation sought to reduce civilian casualties by warning its enemies that it was about to bomb them?

    aunursa (1b5bad)

  252. And of course the first terrorists in the middle east were the Stern Gang, who blew up the King david Hotel.

    Sleepy/AF, you can’t mean that. Terrorism is as old as the middle-east. You may be referring to more recent tmes. How about the 1920s Arab riots culminating in the Hebron massacre?

    Irgun, not the Stern Gang, carried out the King David Hotel bombing. At the time the hotel was the British military headquarters. They telephoned warnings to the Hotel switch board, the Palestine (now Jersusalem) Post and the nearby French consulate in advance of the bombing.

    Stu707 (7fb2e7)

  253. love 2008, Israel reacts. Hamas wants the full destruction of Israel.

    It comes down to who teaches hate. Israel’s schools don’t have books calling for the extermination of a group. Palestinians need to change first. If it were only a land squabble….

    Vermont Neighbor (ceab4f)

  254. sleepy: The more Palestinians die the more world moves away from any defense of Israeli policies and the more isolated Israel becomes.
    And the death toll is nearing 300 to 1.

    – WHY? Because “the world” overwhelmingly supports the Palestinians and their tactics? Because it’s necessary for the sovereign nation of Israel to have support from most of “the world”? Does most of “the world” really think that unprovoked rocket attacks against random civilian targets is an acceptable way to conduct daily life? And the point of the death toll ratio is WHAT? to point out how complete the Palestinian terrorists’ disregard for the life & safety of their populace really is?

    you haven’t made one coherent point yourself so why respond?
    – And yet, here you are. Feel free to engage in actual back and forth debate, rather than just mainly launching non sequiturs and ad hominem attacks like a Hamas rocket sailing through the air without a specific target at the end of its flight.

    re Egypt: $50 billion later, taking stock of US aid to Egypt. That’s just the first one to pop up. You could use google yourself if you cared to.
    – I am well aware of how much US aid goes to Egypt; the implication that I have not bothered to research it amounts to a completely false accusation on your part. I asked you to define what you meant by saying that the US “backs” Egypt, since you said it in a context that suggests the US endorses some of the Egyptian government’s non-democratic, totalitarian methods of operation.

    I’m not going to waste my time answering every idiot rant.
    – But you will take the time to lob the insults? How generous of you!

    I’m wasting enough time as it is.
    – Consensus at last!!!

    And I’m tired of the insults.
    – See the comment above, and remember: Do unto others . . .

    It would be nice I suppose if one of you could make one coherent argument that wasn’t founded on chest thumping racism, but you can’t.
    – Ah yes. When in doubt, play the trump race card.

    You call others criminals but your arguments begin with a crime that continues to this day: the expulsion of Palestinians from their homes.
    – Killing and maiming innocents is an appropriate response to being expelled from ones home? Really? REALLY?

    If this country were under military occupation you’d all be defending suicide bombers. You’d be Hamas.
    – I wasn’t aware that anyone in Hamas had the stones to be a suicide bomber. I thought they were pretty well entrenched into hiding behind the skirts of women and the play areas of children when they launch their rain of terror. Also, they do not have a country that is under occupation.

    That’s the joke.
    – Not very funny. Don’t quit your day job.

    Icy Texan (b7d162)

  255. Comment by aunursa — 12/30/2008 @ 8:23 am
    Where do you stand? Are you pro-Israel or are you anti-Israel? As for me, I am pro-Israel. All true believers in the christian God are. Are you?

    love2008 (0c8c2c)

  256. So, now we are throwing fits… not about what information is included in stories, but where it appears in them? Wow. B*tch much?

    truthnjustice (c313be)

  257. At least your antipathy to Israel isn’t predicated on a phony belief that you’re humane and compassionate. You’re an SOB, and you’re honest enough to admit it.

    Neither the Israelis nor their neighbors gives a fuck about themselves or each other, so why should I care?

    What irritates me the most about liberals (aka “progressives”) who believe Palestinians (or Middle Easterners in general) deserve so much leeway and tears while Israel deserves nothing but a cold shoulder, is such people’s sense that their viewpoint is due to kind-heartedness, egalitarianism, and a respect for the supposed underdog.

    I don’t like any of them. Not the Jews, nor the Arabs. They are all a bunch of psychopathic killers. I don’t understand why the U.S. spends so much time catering to them. We should develop different sources of energy and then tell all of them to go fuck themselves.

    Among the many things they did, was to create Israel and Jordan, as a matter of conscience and healing.

    Truman recognized Israeli to pay off the Jewish lobby. Fine, but that doesn’t mean they’re the 51st fucking state. If Israel can’t get along with its neighbors, tough shit for them.

    We decided to stand by a fellow democratic and free nation, try to build a world that rejects terrorism, and we decided to keep a promise made to these people.

    No one ever should have made a single promise to Israel.

    The events of WWII were none of your doing, but the events of today are. Your lack of support for one side is by default support for the other side.

    I don’t care about the religious war in the mideast. There is no U.S. interest there other than to buy oil. Whoever decided that it was a U.S. obligation to keep Jews in the mideast was a fraud artist.

    Someone needs to tell the Jews of this country that it’s time to decide whether they are Americans or Israeli citizens. They cannot have it both ways. I am tired of the hijacking of this country to serve the interests of Israel. The only thing that matters in the mideast is oil, and if we had a brain it wouldn’t matter for very long.

    The Israelis have no right whatsoever to think that they have some sort of blank check guarantee from America. They should take care of themselves, goddamn it.

    Real American (f0643a)

  258. The vulgarity of your language fits well with the vulgarity of your “thoughts”.

    SPQR (72771e)

  259. Is “Real American” morphing back into “alphie”?

    Another Drew (wwbkaADitcy) (fa7341)

  260. Comment by Real American — 12/30/2008 @ 9:34 am
    You are so wrong. Don’t you know that one of the secrets of America’s greatness is her support for Israel? Don’t you know that the American Jews are largely responsible for a lot of things you enjoy here in America? As God told the Jews, “I will bless those that bless you and curse those that curse you..” America is blessed by the God of Abraham, because she blesses Israel. Stop exposing your ignorance!

    love2008 (0c8c2c)

  261. As for me, I am pro-Israel. All true believers in the christian God are.

    You are sounding more and more like a sockpuppet straw man…

    #179: “Don’t [Palestinians] care about their own people?” No they don’t. They are dogs.
    #249: Every “real American” supports Israel. Except of course the “fake Americans.”

    “A straw man sockpuppet is a false flag pseudonym created by a user with one point of view, but acts as though the puppet has an opposing point of view, in order to make that point of view look bad and generate negative sentiment towards that view. Such sockpuppets will typically advance foolish straw man arguments that their puppeteers can then easily refute. They often act in an unintelligent, uninformed, or bigoted manner. The effect is to discredit more rational arguments for the same side.”

    Where do you stand? Are you pro-Israel or are you anti-Israel?
    Feel free to Google aunursa and Israel to see where I stand.

    aunursa (1b5bad)

  262. More sleepy: Using the language of rights the Unites States has a “right” to exist only as a republic. If it were to become a monarchy or dictatorship it would no longer have that right, though it would continue to exist: facts are facts.
    – That’s a nice moral stance; one which, unfortunately, fails to take into account the reality of the way the world really works.

    Saudi Arabia has no “right to exist,” it simply exists and we have to accommodate that fact. How much? That’s a question of the debate between necessity and morality.
    – You almost sound like you support the president’s reasons for taking out Saddam. Interesting.

    Israel is founded on a division between Jewish and non-jewish citizens relations defined as separate and unequal.
    – Maybe you could point out the relevant sections of the Israeli Constitution?

    There can be moral no justification for this. Israel -defined as the government and laws of Israel as they exist- has no more “right to exist” no more moral justification than the government of Saudi Arabia or Syria.
    Got me?

    – Is that why Syria has “the right” to work towards wiping Israel off the map?

    It’s as simple as A-B-C.
    – Taking a moral stand is easy; dealing with reality on the ground is messy. You can yell at your children to behave until you’re blue in the face. The question is: What do you do to control them, WHILE allowing them to continue living thriving and growing?

    Your moral relativism is an obscenity.
    – Are you proclaiming yourself an isolationist? or are you just confused as to how conservatives measure up in the area of moral relativism?

    [quotes the preamble to the Declaration of Independence]
    – The point being that Israel governs Hamas-controlled areas, not the duly elected gov’t . . . you know, Hamas?

    Quoting Amira Hass: “Just imagine that you are confined to a place and not allowed to leave . . . ever.”
    – Is this the problem? Gaza needs its own airport?

    And of course the first terrorists in the middle east were the Stern Gang, who blew up the King david Hotel. Begin and Shamir started their careers as terrorists.
    – This from the same guy that quoted the Declaration. Was the Boston Tea Party a terrorist act?

    Icy Texan (b7d162)

  263. “The vulgarity of your language fits well with the vulgarity of your “thoughts”.
    What, as opposed to yours?

    The one a a half million men, women, and children of Gaza have been locked in for decades. They can’t leave; blocked by Israel on one side and Egypt on the Other. Israel is surrounded by 4 million refugees who’ve been thrown off their land in the name of racial purity. As Ben Gurion said: why should they accept that? No reason at all.

    Just as importantly, why would you defend it?
    Why do you defend concentration camps for people on their own land?

    sleepy (9d17de)

  264. “As Ben Gurion said: why should they accept that? No reason at all.”

    blah – Is your recommendation that they wipe out Israel or that they kick out Hamas and attempt to live in peace.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  265. Hey, Icy, you know this person is just a maroon. The whole goal is to reflexively troll for outrage, like a malignant little chatterbot. The person may not actually be an anti-Semite.

    It just plays one on blogs.

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  266. “Quoting Amira Hass: “Just imagine that you are confined to a place and not allowed to leave . . . ever.”
    – Is this the problem? Gaza needs its own airport?”

    IT – I think blah wears his own propellor beanie. He can fly anywhere with it, in his mind.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  267. sleepy defends an organization that states that the only solution to the “Palestinian Question” is through jihad. Sleepy: why do you defend religious murder?

    SPQR (72771e)

  268. Sleepy falsely claims that the palestinian refugees were expelled for “racial purity” then ignores the racial purity ideology of Hamas:

    “”The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. “

    SPQR (72771e)

  269. Israel is surrounded by 4 million refugees who’ve been thrown off their land in the name of racial purity

    If Israel threw out all the Arabs, why are there still a million or so Israeli Arabs? There is a spot in this conflict that has been through the ethnic cleansing thing though; Gaza.

    Pablo (99243e)

  270. Fixed that for ya: The one a a half million men, women, and children of Gaza have been locked in for decades. They can’t leave; blocked by Israel on one side and Egypt on the Other. Israel is surrounded by 4 million the descendents of 600,000 refugees who’ve been thrown off their land rejected every attempt at a peace due to their virulent anti-Semitism and the decisions of Arab leaders to use them as pawns.

    By the way, the answer to their problems is obviously to lob hundreds of missiles into Israel, so as to guarantee the response they received from the IDF? Even a grieving Palestinian child is smart enough to know that Hamas is to blame for the death of her sister.

    aunursa (1b5bad)

  271. Fixed that for ya: The one a a half million men, women, and children of Gaza have been locked in for decades. They can’t leave; blocked by Israel on one side and Egypt on the Other. Israel is surrounded by 4 million the descendents of 600,000 refugees who’ve been thrown off their land rejected every attempt at a peace due to their virulent anti-Semitism and the decisions of Arab leaders to use them as pawns.

    aunursa (1b5bad)

  272. Damn. Strikeout works in preview.

    aunursa (1b5bad)

  273. See, this is a good example of the problem. The troll posts something all about feelings (without research or perspective or even deep thought) and then everyone piles on with facts.

    I’m glad to see the references, since I found it interesting.

    But the Goal of the Troll is not to learn anything, but to slap or snark and move on (think David Letterman or Jon Stewart, but without a staff of writers).

    It brings it back to the real conceit of the Left: it is about feelings not fact. I don’t believe that this troll is interested in facts at all. Just fighting.

    Speaking troof to powder, once again.

    And I do believe that, of the three main trolls at present, there will be less than three different ISP designators.

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  274. Comment by aunursa — 12/30/2008 @ 9:58 am
    If you have been reading some of my comments you won’t be calling me a straw man sockpuppet. My views on Israel has always been the same. I don’t know the source of your confusion. I support Israel. Whether good or bad. They gave us the gospel. They gave us Jesus. They are still God’s people. I am not using sarcasm here. Or provide evidence that I am equivocating on this issue. If you can’t, an apology would be appropriate.

    love2008 (0c8c2c)

  275. The guy with the name so ironic that it isn’t funny at all wrote: Neither the Israelis nor their neighbors gives a fuck about themselves or each other, so why should I care?
    – Do you think that they should care? If so, then why don’t you care? Kinda makes you look like the asshole, eh? You might want to reassess and decide that they do care about themselves, and that their neighbors care about what goes on as well. The actions taken as a result of their concern definitely should come under question, but the blanket attitude “let them kill each other” doesn’t really help anything.

    I don’t like any of them. Not the Jews, nor the Arabs. They are all a bunch of psychopathic killers.
    – All of them, binky? Less hate could make you part of the solution, instead of . . .

    I don’t understand why the U.S. spends so much time catering to them. We should develop different sources of energy and then tell all of them to go fuck themselves.
    – Yes, we could PRETEND that isolationism is doable in this modern era, but then eventually playtime would be over.

    Truman recognized Israeli to pay off the Jewish lobby. Fine, but that doesn’t mean they’re the 51st fucking state. If Israel can’t get along with its neighbors, tough shit for them.
    – Any chance that it’s the neighbors that can’t get along with Israel? or does that not fit into your barely-disguised anti-Semitic conspiracy theory?

    No one ever should have made a single promise to Israel.
    – Yeah!!! Why have friends anyway? They’ll only let you down in the end. Happens EVERY time.

    I don’t care about the religious war in the mideast.
    – Yours is one of the more animated expressions of total disinterest ever written.

    There is no U.S. interest there other than to buy oil.
    – There’s no US interest there . . . other than the US interest there? Oxymoron much?

    Whoever decided that it was a U.S. obligation to keep Jews in the mideast was a fraud artist.
    – The more you say “Jews” rather than ‘Israelis’, the more the skin on your head is showing.

    Someone needs to tell the Jews of this country that it’s time to decide whether they are Americans or Israeli citizens. They cannot have it both ways.
    – They can’t be both Jews and Americans? American Jews can’t support Israel? To support Israel is to be a traitor to America? And here I thought that Americans have the freedom to support whomever they choose to support. Silly me.

    I am tired of the hijacking of this country to serve the interests of Israel.
    – And here I thought that we might, just might, have some common interests.

    The only thing that matters in the mideast is oil, and if we had a brain it wouldn’t matter for very long.
    – The ONLY thing? Shipping, other goods, the lives of the people that live there; any of these things ring a bell?

    The Israelis have no right whatsoever to think that they have some sort of blank check guarantee from America.
    – Who says that they think that? Who says that the check is blank?

    They should take care of themselves, goddamn it.
    – N.B.C. – nothing but class

    Icy Texan (b7d162)

  276. I apologize.

    Nevertheless, some of your comments about Palestinians and “real Americans” are not helpful to the cause of Israel.

    aunursa (1b5bad)

  277. Why do you defend concentration camps for people on their own land?

    – I didn’t know that impressionists were doing Jimmy Carter anymore. I guess if you wait long enough everything comes back into vogue.

    Icy Texan (b7d162)

  278. I like those folks better when they build houses and sit quietly next to Michael Moore.

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  279. #224: How come so many “conservatives” on the Internet are actually Jews who think American blood has to be shed for Israel?

    Not only do no conservatives think that American blood should be shed for Israel, no one in Israel wants American blood to be shed on their behalf. They are perfectly capable of defending themselves without American soldiers stationed there.

    aunursa (1b5bad)

  280. They’ll be quiet if Michael Moore sits on them.

    Icy Texan (b7d162)

  281. Nevertheless, some of your comments about Palestinians and “real Americans” are not helpful to the cause of Israel.

    Comment by aunursa — 12/30/2008 @ 10:43 am
    The “real American” I quoted was actually in referrence to the poster with that screen name. The anti-semitic American who hates all things jewish. The poster who calls himself “Real American.” I was pointing out the irony.
    Apology accepted and sorry for the misunderstanding.

    love2008 (1b037c)

  282. #247 Comment by sleepy — 12/29/2008 @ 11:34 pm

    wow, I go out for a drink and look what happens.

    Warm milk does not take that long to drink ;-)

    Pons Asinorum (5fa803)

  283. #259 Comment by Real American — 12/30/2008 @ 9:34 am

    (#242)We decided to stand by a fellow democratic and free nation, try to build a world that rejects terrorism, and we decided to keep a promise made to these people.

    No one ever should have made a single promise to Israel.

    Says you, but the Greatest Generation disagreed and subsequent generations of Americans see the logic and wisdom of supporting freedom and liberty – even if it is hard.

    Current Americans concur with the Greatest Generation, that global support of free nations is the best way to spread freedom and liberty, and prevent a global war (such as WWII that they fought and won).

    Pons Asinorum (5fa803)

  284. #259 Comment by Real American — 12/30/2008 @ 9:34 am

    (#242) Among the many things they did, was to create Israel and Jordan, as a matter of conscience and healing.

    Truman recognized Israeli to pay off the Jewish lobby. Fine, but that doesn’t mean they’re the 51st fucking state. If Israel can’t get along with its neighbors, tough shit for them.

    Although I am not Jewish, the anti-Semitism is obvious in your first sentence. As for the rest, you are: (a) factually wrong, Israel is not a state, and (b) you have failed to recognize that helping other democracies survive is absolutely imperative to our own self-interests (as noted above, repeatedly throughout this thread).

    Pons Asinorum (5fa803)

  285. #259 Comment by Real American — 12/30/2008 @ 9:34 am

    (#242)The events of WWII were none of your doing, but the events of today are. Your lack of support for one side is by default support for the other side.

    I don’t care about the religious war in the Mideast. There is no U.S. interest there other than to buy oil. Whoever decided that it was a U.S. obligation to keep Jews in the mideast was a fraud artist.

    I could care less about the religious reasons for war as well, but you are wrong about US interests being solely about oil. Our Country is more than just economic well being. We safeguard the Free World and if we fail or abdicate, it will be at our peril (yet another lesson learned by the Greatest Generation, but slowly being forgotten).

    Pons Asinorum (5fa803)

  286. #259 Comment by Real American — 12/30/2008 @ 9:34 am

    The Israelis have no right whatsoever to think that they have some sort of blank check guarantee from America. They should take care of themselves, goddamn it.

    Israel has not required American soldiers to shed blood for their cause. They can and do take care of themselves, perhaps more ably than most of our other allies. It is one of the better alliances we have made (as repeatedly demonstrated by American election, generation after generation).

    Pons Asinorum (5fa803)

  287. #259 Comment by Real American — 12/30/2008 @ 9:34 am (et al)

    Your knowledge of history is demonstratively flawed and as a result, your hard held conclusions are erroneous.

    Unfortunate.

    If it is hatred that has closed your mind, then understanding will elude you in this world.

    There are books, ideas, knowledge, wisdom, teachers, differing opinions, many facts, even more antidotes, but a complete comprehension of these wonders is denied to the hate filled mind.

    To leap from Practical to Elucidation requires an open mind, as a hate filled mind cannot withstand (nor formulate) wisdom.

    Perhaps we can agree on the last two sentences.

    Pons Asinorum (5fa803)

  288. Although I am not Jewish, the anti-Semitism is obvious in your first sentence.

    This is so typical. Anyone who doesn’t kowtow to Israel is an “antisemite.” It’s like when liberals call people a “racist.”

    Our Country is more than just economic well being. We safeguard the Free World and if we fail or abdicate

    The U.S. has no obligation to take Israel’s side in a 2,000+ year old fight for a scrap of land 8,000 miles away. This shit couldn’t possibly be less important to American interests.

    Says you, but the Greatest Generation disagreed and subsequent generations of Americans see the logic and wisdom of supporting freedom and liberty

    WW2 was not fought for Israel or for Jews. The U.S. entered that war after Japan attacked us and Germany and Italy declared war. This guarantee of Israel’s borders was never even REMOTELY a part of WW2. The attempt of the Jewish lobby to hitch hike on WW2 is a cheap fraud.

    Israel has not required American soldiers to shed blood for their cause. They can and do take care of themselves, perhaps more ably than most of our other allies.

    Israel is not, and never has been, a U.S. “ally.” They have never so much as lifted a finger for this country. All they have ever done in their entire history is TAKE from us.

    They are perfectly capable of defending themselves without American soldiers stationed there.

    Really? Then why the fuck did the U.S. government pay th4e entire cost of their Lebanon invasion? And why is the U.S. government taking Israel’s side against Iran, and why did the U.S. government do Israel’s biddding in Iraq?

    The U.S. should be NEUTRAL in the middle east. Let these people sink or swim on their own. The only thing Israel has ever done is attack our forces, spy on us, and sell our secrets to the Russians and the Chinese.

    America is blessed by the God of Abraham, because she blesses Israel. Stop exposing your ignorance!

    I do hope you were joking there.

    If so, then why don’t you care?

    I care because the Jewish lobby in the U.S. has changed U.S. policy from neutrality to being pro-Israel. The U.S. should never have done that. We have absolutely no business tilting toward either side in that fight. The Izzies and the Arabs hate each others’ guts. We should stand back and let them fight it out. It’s not our problem.

    I challenge you to share the last time Hamas, Hezbollah, or any other Islamic terrorist group sought to avoid civilian casualties.

    The Izzies are no different. They slaughter every Arab they can. This is a classic ancient middle eastern blood religious feud. We in America are the New World. The last fucking thing on earth for us to be doing is to be getting involved in a feud between Jews and Muslims. Why in hell should we give a shit?

    They can’t be both Jews and Americans? American Jews can’t support Israel? To support Israel is to be a traitor to America? And here I thought that Americans have the freedom to support whomever they choose to support. Silly me.

    Now YOU should read YOUR history: Specifically, the German American Bund, which was in trouble long before Dec. 8, 1941, when Germany declared war. The AIPAC is a foreign agent, and the Jews in this country who aid and abet them are working for a foreign power. They should be registered as foreign agents.

    I ask: Which side are you on? Are you an American, or do you think the U.S. is an appendage of Israel and should be sent out to do Israel’s bidding?

    Any chance that it’s the neighbors that can’t get along with Israel?

    You know what? I don’t really care, any more than I care whether the Hutus or the Tsutsis in Rwanda and the Congro are the aggressors. It’s not our problem. Why so much crap about Israel’s neighbors, friends, or enemies? No one has been able to tell me why we should care about 5 million Jews in Israel.

    Who says that they think that? Who says that the check is blank?

    The U.S. government paid 100% of the cost of Israel’s 2006 invasion of Lebanon. Why the fuck did we do that, other than because we kowtowed to a naked AIPAC power play from “dual citizen” traitors?

    Real American (2567f5)

  289. “The U.S. has no obligation to take Israel’s side in a 2,000+ year old fight for a scrap of land 8,000 miles away. This shit couldn’t possibly be less important to American interests.”

    It’s not a 2000 year old fight. The last time, they were fighting with the Italians. And they’ve had the hardest time with Christians (as Ben Gurion noted). My experience with anti-semitism has been with Christians. And just recently we had a vice presidential candidate who was smitten with a preacher who said the Jews in Israel are bombed as punishment for not converting to christianity; needless to say, she didn’t get the Jewish vote. But she’s very popular on this site. I hope she runs.
    She didn’t get the black vote either, but Puff the Magic Negro is a Republican hit.
    As Ed Koch said: “You don’t understand. Jesse Helms may hate the Jews, but he loves Israel.”
    And this site loves Jesse.
    So where were any of you guys 2000 years ago?

    sleepy (9d17de)

  290. The joint is sure jumping with the Usual Suspects.

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  291. Here’s a suggestion for the anti-Semite posting at #290: Why don’t you collect all that spittle frothing about from your deranged rants in a bucket and drown yourself.

    At least that way, you’d be making a positive contribution to the world.

    EW1(SG) (e27928)

  292. Come to think of it, the one posting at 291 could join the first one and do a lot for healing the world.

    EW1(SG) (e27928)

  293. I’ll ask you politely not to call me an anti-semite. I’m Jew.
    It like calling a black man a nigger.
    I lost family in the camps. and my uncle was a POW in Germany.
    Show just a little respect. Not too much, just enough.
    Thank you.

    sleepy (9d17de)

  294. Comment by EW1(SG) — 12/30/2008 @ 9:13 pm
    And we could celebrate the remarkable contribution to brotherhood and civility by buckets everywhere.

    Comment by sleepy — 12/30/2008 @ 9:32 pm
    Unbelievable, just unbelievable!

    Another Drew (wwbkaADitcy) (fa7341)

  295. AD, isn’t it a funny coincidence to see several instances of Personal Absolute Moral Authority in one evening from different posters?

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  296. Well, it must be something in the water, or the fry-o-later grease at Mickie-D’s.

    Another Drew (wwbkaADitcy) (fa7341)

  297. I said “a little… not too much, just enough.”
    I didn’t say play nice, but there’s one line I’d like not to cross.

    On with the insults. All around, believe me.

    sleepy (9d17de)

  298. I’ll put it another way, since I did respond with Palin et al.
    If you want to argue that my positions amount to anti-semitism
    go ahead. But the name calling at that level bugs me. If I’m guilty of it I apologize.

    sleepy (9d17de)

  299. “I lost family in the camps”

    Did they fall out of the guard towers sleepy?

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  300. As I said, there’s a line.
    “Did they fall out of the guard towers sleepy?”

    You going to police this one Pat, or just throw me out again when I use a four letter word?
    It’s the same every time.
    boring.

    sleepy (9d17de)

  301. #302 writes:


    You going to police this one Pat, or just throw me out again when I use a four letter word?
    It’s the same every time.
    boring.

    Hmmm. I don’t recall this person posting on this blog under this name getting banned.

    Was it before my time or has “sleepy” posted under another name?

    In any event “boring” is correct in many ways.

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  302. Each political party has their pets. The Democrats love the Bosnians. Why, I am not sure. But they dragged NATO (meaning the U.S., basically) into a war for them. And the Kosovars.

    The Democrats used to be the protectors of the Jews, but now the Republicans are trying to get their nose in there. Campaign money, obviously. The Republicans also love someone in Iraq. Not sure who, but it was worth $1 trillion.

    The Republicans hate the communists unless they’re the Chinese. They hate the Shiites if they’re Iranian, but not if they’re Iraqi. They hate the Muslims and beheading unless they’re Saudis, who are the most Muslim of all and behead more people in a month than al-Qaeda has beheaded in its entire existence.

    This website, like so many “conservative” ones, is rabidly pro-Israel and in favor of American security guarantees to Israel. Anyone who thinks that the Izzies and the Arabs are two scorpions in a bottle is an “antisemite,” which is supposed to make everybody spazz out in fear.

    Screw that. I don’t hate the Jews, here or there. It’s worse. I don’t give a shit about them. If they’re Americans, then being Jews is beside the point. If they’re not Americans, then being Jews is beside the point. It’s immaterial to me.

    It’s plain to see that the Izzies rabidly hate their neighbors, and vice-versa. The hatred grows and grows each year. They’re all in the hate business in the middle east. They always have been, and they always will be. The only interest the U.S. has there is to trade with them, i.e., buy oil.

    If middle easterners are starving, then as Americans who have lots of food and don’t like to see people starve will want to help feed them, at least for a while. If we can provide “our good offices” with diplomats, it gives the state dept. something to do, so what the hell.

    But the idea of actually taking a side among those fucking scumbags is dumber than dirt. Someone has to explain the “conservative” Israel fetish, because we sure as fuck know it’s not for “freedom.” The U.S, stands back and ignores freedom all the time.

    Is it “western values?” Bullshit. Israel doesn’t have “western values” any more than anyone else. What we’ve got is Jews in the U.S. with a shitload of money to give to politicians, and pretty much a hammerlock on the media, plus we’ve got the so-called christians who have swallowed the book of revelations heresies hook, line and sinker and think Israel is the key to the “second coming.”

    In short, it’s a perfect American marriage of stupidity, financial and political corruption, and religion. A three-way, if you will. The result is treason, not that any of the “conservatives” give a shit about that.

    Real American (2567f5)

  303. And just recently we had a vice presidential candidate who was smitten with a preacher who said the Jews in Israel are bombed as punishment for not converting to christianity; needless to say, she didn’t get the Jewish vote.

    Oh, but look at all the Jews who voted for Barack I-love-Jeremiah-Wright Obama. Then again, anti-Semitism is perfectly AOK if it’s dressed up with a lot of leftist sentiment.

    Sort of like all the idiots who nonchalantly accept (if not even admire) Fidel Castro’s or Hugo Chavez’s totalitarianism because its draped with “concern for the little man,” and “generous welfare benefits and free healthcare for all!!!”

    Mark (411533)

  304. Israel doesn’t have “western values” any more than anyone else.

    At the very least, Israel isn’t absurdly backwards and dysfunctional, both politically and socially, than most of the other portions of the Middle East. And nearer to home, and compared with nations like Mexico, which exude a stench of “Third World armpit,” Israel isn’t a big mess, a big joke.

    Mark (411533)

  305. Sort of like all the idiots who nonchalantly accept (if not even admire) Fidel Castro’s or Hugo Chavez’s totalitarianism because its draped with “concern for the little man,” and “generous welfare benefits and free healthcare for all!!!”

    Or the Chinese totalitarianism as long as there are profits for U.S. corporations and Chinese purchases of Treasurys. Or Saddam Hussein when he was a useful tool against the Iranians. Or al-Qaeda when they were a useful too against the Russians. Or the rabidly anti-freedom, anti-democracy, radical Muslim Saudis, when they supply a shitload of oil and oil profits.

    Everyone’s got their fetishes.

    Real American (2567f5)

  306. Was it before my time or has “sleepy” posted under another name?

    AF, NN, Blah, JAR are names Sleepy has used in the past. He has been banned in the past for excessive profanity.

    Stu707 (7fb2e7)

  307. At the very least, Israel isn’t absurdly backwards and dysfunctional, both politically and socially, than most of the other portions of the Middle East. And nearer to home, and compared with nations like Mexico, which exude a stench of “Third World armpit,” Israel isn’t a big mess, a big joke.

    Israel is an outpost of the Russian mafia. But even if they weren’t, it’s beside the point whether we “like” them. This isn’t high school. It’s what’s-in-it-for-us, and on that score I don’t think Israel has done anything for the U.S. that I can see. If by chance they have helped us, then it’s got to be balanced against their spying, their demands, their expense, and their risk. How in hell anyone seriously argues that the Israel “alliance” is a good idea is beyond me. The whole thing is a fraud and a clusterfuck from square one.

    Real American (2567f5)

  308. RA writes:


    “..Everyone’s got their fetishes…”

    Oh, I couldn’t agree more.

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  309. Oh, this site bans for “excessive profanity?” Who knew? I checked before I posted and there’s plenty of profanity from the peanut gallery here, but I guess that’s okay. Typical Internet true believers, it sounds like. One standard for yourselves and your friends, another for everyone else.

    Real American (2567f5)

  310. Hey, Stu707:

    “…He has been banned in the past for excessive profanity…”

    Prophetic words, perhaps.

    Seriously, is it certain that “sleepy” is the same as these other folks, or a guess? I believe that many of the current crop of trolls are just one or two people playing games. I could be wrong, but they seem to have a great deal in common, logistically.

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  311. Careful, “Real American.” You are starting to sound a bit like a banned person, “Horrible Leftist.”

    He/she/it got pretty loonie, though. Your last posts are more measured, with less “shocker” language.

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  312. Yeah, Eric, there are some people who aren’t putting on their kneepads every time someone says “Israel,” and who don’t run crying for momma every time someone calls them an “anti-semite.” It must really shock your lobotomized self to encounter someone who is fearless and independent, like this country used to be.

    In fact, I bet it scares the living shit out of you and your friends, because somewhere down deep you know that there are more of us — a lot more of us — than there are of you, just waiting for our time.

    Real American (2567f5)

  313. I’ll have to find this “Horrible Leftist.” Got banned, huh? Must have made too much sense for this crowd, maybe? I don’t think your crew knows the first thing about really being an American. You are knee-jerk parrots for someone else’s line of bullshit. It’s really sad, and kind of funny in a weird way.

    Real American (2567f5)

  314. Now, see, there you sounded just like “Horrible Leftist.” All that is missing is the creepy and juvenile “Ha ha ha ha” business. Sweeping generalizations, personal insults, the whole nine yards of cloth. Either you are just being a troll to get a reaction, or you are a pretty angry guy/gal/whatever.

    Lobotomized? Really? C’mon.

    Why not tamp it down a little? If you are so certain of your own correctness, and things are going your way so much, you want to avoid sounding so angry. In a couple of earlier posts, you actually were trending toward a more measured approach.

    Still, “..waiting for our time…” does sound pretty conspiratorial, however. I thought that this was the era of Hope and Change?

    I don’t want to fight or play troll games. “Your side” might prevail. It might not. But all the insults really don’t advance your cause one iota.

    And calling yourself “fearless and independent” is a bit much. But hey, good luck on that.

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  315. You see the world as bush v obama. I think they’re both fraudulent idiots. Bush is a fucking disaster. Every single thing he did was wrong. I’ve never seen a bigger disaster. Obama won’t be as bad (it’s almost impossible to be as bad as Bush), but he overpromised and it looks like he stuck himself in hock to the Izzies and to the coal companies, plus he’s going to let the banks get away with it.

    And you people here will be playing your typical games about the right-wingers being better, when in fact they’ve spent the last 13 years since Gingrich stealing everything that wasn’t nailed down. This whole country is run by traitors, shysters, and idiots who have no idea what it means to be an American.

    You and your flag waving idiot crew make me want to puke blood.

    Real American (2567f5)

  316. Fine. We are all the same here, of course. I get it. You know exactly what I think, along with everyone else here. We are idiots, and you, of course, are fearless and independent. Yup. It sure makes for a simple world.

    If you are made to want to puke blood by reading the blog, why not go elsewhere? Isn’t the energy better spent elsewhere?

    Unless you are just here to fight people and cuss. Come back tomorrow, if so. There are lots of posters here who enjoy the verbal Fight Club thing.

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  317. If you are made to want to puke blood by reading the blog, why not go elsewhere? Isn’t the energy better spent elsewhere?

    Thanks for showing your true colors, George Orwell. It’s all about the megaphone for you people, isn’t it? If calling them an “anti-semite” when they refuse to give Israel a wet sloppy one doesn’t work, then threaten to ban them for “excess profanity.”

    That doesn’t work? Call them an “angry troll” and tell them to leave. No wonder the largest political party is “independent.” More and more Americans look at you and the Democrats and wish you’d park your asses in a rocket ship and lift off.

    George, YOU are the unwelcome ones. YOU and your buddies are the ones who’ve stripped the economy clean bare, and still want to find another war to get into — for someone other than yourself to fight, I’m sure.

    Grow a brain cell and dare to think a thought that Big Republican Israeli Brother might not appreciate. If you dare, ya scared little rat.

    Real American (2567f5)

  318. Everyone’s got their fetishes.

    Obama won’t be as bad

    You and your flag waving idiot crew make me want to puke blood.

    Hmm. A combination of recent comments from you makes me suspect a hint of leftist (or “progressive”) sentiment. Not that there’s anything wrong with that (well, there actually is). It’s just that if you’re trying to play the hard-ass crank — perhaps an impression of a tobacco-chewing good ol’ boy, redneck and all — to conceal idiotic liberal preferences, then it’s time to come out of the closet.

    Mark (411533)

  319. I’ll have to find this “Horrible Leftist.” Got banned, huh? Must have made too much sense for this crowd,

    LOL.

    I just ran across this quote of yours. Anyone who wants to combine the word “leftist” with the word “sense”?

    Now I’m sure you’re a leftwinger.

    Clever masquerade while it lasted.

    Mark (411533)

  320. Hey, “Real American”….

    I wish you butterflies and rainbows. And lots and lots of Paxil.

    If you want to show how electronically tough you are, sure, c’mon back tomorrow when there are more people online and call folks names. Please start with Patterico. After all, you are tough. Independent. Intelligent. You know it all, and all of us—every one of us—is stupid and slavish and not in the know. Like you are.

    You betcha.

    You do like to pick fights, don’t you?

    Oh well.

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  321. The lying leftie at #295 says:

    I’m Jew.

    You’re no more Jewish than my cat.

    But you are an unrepentant liar.

    And as for calling me “kid,” my left little toenail has more life experience than you do. So, nice try, sport~

    Bzzt!

    EW1(SG) (da07da)

  322. And let me point out that my cat contributes much more to civil discussion than the scumbucket.

    At least my cat is honest.

    EW1(SG) (da07da)

  323. EW1(SF): they are just finishing up Trollfest 2008, sadly.

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  324. Whoops. (SG), I meant.

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  325. “It must really shock your lobotomized self to encounter someone who is fearless and independent, like this country used to be.

    In fact, I bet it scares the living shit out of you and your friends, because somewhere down deep you know that there are more of us — a lot more of us — than there are of you, just waiting for our time.”

    Real American – I don’t think anybody here is scared of you or shocked at your views. As the the numbers of people holding similar views, sure there are a lot of you, but most of you reach puberty and start growing up. Some of you take a lot longer than others and remain in the Democrat Party or call yourselves progressives. Others face reality and become conservatives.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  326. “You going to police this one Pat, or just throw me out again when I use a four letter word?
    It’s the same every time.
    boring.”

    There’s the response from sleepy I was hoping for. What a moron!

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  327. I’m pretty sure it is just HL all over again, daley. Or the woman who liked to cuss a lot. What was her name?

    It gets tiring, but that is the point.

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  328. Honest, daley, they don’t think before they post.

    DRJ and Patterico don’t seem to care, and it is their show.

    But yeah, “sleepy” kinda unmasked with that one.

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  329. BigBeautifulButterflyMcQueen or something?

    I know, DaBomzDiggityDogFaceGirl. Or was it that chica from New York?

    Eric – I don’t really care who Real American is but I think we’ve identified sleepy. He’s admitted he’s been banned before.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  330. #312

    Seriously, is it certain that “sleepy” is the same as these other folks, or a guess? I believe that many of the current crop of trolls are just one or two people playing games. I could be wrong, but they seem to have a great deal in common, logistically.

    Eric Blair, it would not be worth the time and effort to dig out posts under Sleepy’s former screen names and compare them to the current offerings. Israel has been a favorite whipping boy and they all use similar rhetorical devices.

    I agree that the trolls try to create the impression that their views are widely held. Sleepy/AF, etc. does not do that. His use of various screen names is to get around the bans.

    Stu707 (7fb2e7)

  331. Honest to God, I don’t get it. Patterico is pretty straight up. You write to him, make your case, and he is fair minded and temperate.

    Unless these are all head cases, or kids, I guess.

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  332. I think you are right, Stu707. The trollery gets old.

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  333. Stu707 – I don’t remember sleepy’s nn nick, but I’m with you on the blah/AF/JAR screennames.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  334. Daley,

    He only used NN once or twice. Pat told him to stop.

    Stu707 (7fb2e7)

  335. But why do all this? The answer was given by a recent troll: speaking their version of “truth” to the “power” that they perceive here.

    The real truth is that they like to fight. That’s it.

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  336. They also think they are smarter than everybody who disagrees with them.

    Stu707 (7fb2e7)

  337. Compensation for a quite different reality, I suspect.

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  338. Instead of writing about the post, let’s just write about how everybody with whom we disagree with are trolls. That about sums up the last ten posts on here.

    I think you should note this reality as you gear up to make your resolutions.

    truthnjustice (d99227)

  339. There goes that projection again.

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  340. Oh, and learn a new word. Life is more interesting when you know the definitions of more than 14 of them.

    truthnjustice (d99227)

  341. The word does seem to bother you. Hmmm.

    And it would be nice if you didn’t illustrate Stu707′s comment a couple of posts later.

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  342. But then, that is what trolls do.

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  343. So.. I guess you can’t come up with anything interesting to say about the post. Projection.

    truthnjustice (d99227)

  344. Now THAT was amusing.

    So, seriously, what is your position on CERN and the supercollider?

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  345. Projection.

    truthnjustice (d99227)

  346. Right.

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  347. Projection again. You’re on a roll.

    truthnjustice (d99227)

  348. See how awesomely dumb that is?

    truthnjustice (d99227)

  349. Hey, I thought you were the guy who was sensitive to insults?

    And an engineer who taught physics.

    I genuinely was interested in your thought on the Hadron Collider at CERN.

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  350. Or thoughts.

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  351. So, seriously, what is your position on CERN and the supercollider?

    Eric, how could you consider that this troll would know anything about such and issue;
    it’s not like he teaches physics, or is an engineer?

    You really need to lighten up…time for a change…it’s a New Year (almost).

    Why, who knows, Rush might even get a guest column at the Slimes, and join the MSM.

    Another Drew (wwbkaADitcy) (1b7d77)

  352. See how awesomely dumb that is?

    I dunno. Compared to your other stuff, it was pretty darn clever…

    Scott Jacobs (a1c284)

  353. I think you watch too much “Big Bang Theory”. It is a good show. These questions suggest that you have no idea what an engineer or a physics teacher actually knows. I am not a doctoral candidate in physics. I know what the CERN does and can spout off some of the theories it is built upon, but what do you want me to say?

    You are clueless.

    Oh, and projection.

    truthnjustice (d99227)

  354. AD, I genuinely was trying to get him to talk about something else.

    Maybe he is an engineer and teaches physics. If so, he probably knows a fair amount about the Collider and its recent controversy (great for high school student discussions, actually).

    I’m just tired of the trollery, and thought we could see something different.

    But you are right—I’m putting off posting grades. It always makes me sad. For some reason, the ones who do poorly trouble me more than the ones who work hard and do well.

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  355. I don’t respond to blasphemers.

    truthnjustice (d99227)

  356. Oh well.

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  357. What do you teach, Eric? That isn’t your name, is it? Where do you teach? Can you write me a 40,000 word paper about your teaching philosophy? I would appreciate it; I think it would help me stay away from total classroom failure.

    truthnjustice (d99227)

  358. Comment by Eric Blair — 12/31/2008 @ 11:38 am

    Grades…
    Yes, I know how you feel.
    In my scant experience at teaching, it was always the ones who I felt were trying, but just couldn’t assimilate the data, that made me very introspective as to whether or not I could have done something differently to facilitate their success.

    Another Drew (wwbkaADitcy) (1b7d77)

  359. Actually, I have answered those questions before. I have a PhD in the sciences, and teach undergraduates, primarily.

    And I have tried to be pleasant, and you are continuing to be rude. The “projection” line above was not intended toward you, but some of the folks like RA and his/her/its ilk.

    So let’s not play troll games anymore. If you want to be polite, okay. If you want to troll around, see you later, and I wish you the best.

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  360. Comment by liesntyranny — 12/31/2008 @ 11:40 am
    What a pompous ass!

    Another Drew (wwbkaADitcy) (1b7d77)

  361. It is probably a bit late for you to take the high road, EB… but ditto!

    truthnjustice (d99227)

  362. Moving on, AD, the recent issue in my classes (and I have talked to educators all over the country about this, and they all are finding what I am describing) has been what I call “chain studying.”

    Students don’t keep up with all of their classes. Instead, they focus on the next assignment—a paper due, an exam, etc. And like running downhill, it works for a time—unless you trip. In this case, until the end of the quarter or semester, when the students get pounded.

    Or if they get sick, etc.

    Many of the students I teach are premeds or predents (I teach genetics, mostly, and research techniques). They think that they can “cram” everything they need at the last minute, regurgitate for the exam, and move on. The trouble is, they have little retention, and that hurts them on the GRE or MCAT or DAT.

    So they take cram courses for those, too. Oh well.

    They are nice young women and men. Somewhere along the line, the students have learned this bad study habit. Maybe (and this is NOT a jibe at anyone) it is this “teaching to the test” business in secondary school. I keep trying different techniques to get them to keep up.

    It’s a moving target.

    Some of them buy into the “different learning styles” business. It might be true, but there is only one professor and a classroom full of students.

    At the same time, many of the students do well, and it is important to keep them in mind.

    Gotta go post grades, AD. Thanks for your note.

    Eric Blair (3e2520)

  363. #353 Why, who knows, Rush might even get a guest column at the Slimes, and join the MSM.

    (Sorry Another, couldn’t let that one slide…. you know me :) )

    How do you know Rush has not been asked to guest on “Your” MSM?

    I don’t know for sure either way, but unless you know otherwise…… I’m assuming he’s scared crap less of some in “your” MSM.

    Oiram (983921)

  364. If you want to know what Rush thinks about a subject, you can either listen to his show, subscribe to his website, and/or send him an email.
    The info that you receive through any of those acts might surprise you.

    Another Drew (wwbkaADitcy) (1b7d77)

  365. How do you know Rush has not been asked to guest on “Your” MSM?

    I don’t know for sure either way, but unless you know otherwise…… I’m assuming he’s scared crap less of some in “your” MSM.

    He’s been on CBS Evening News with Katie Couric and he’s been on Fox repeatedly. He seems to like having a microphone. Do you know of invitations he’s declined?

    Pablo (99243e)

  366. Comment by Pablo — 12/31/2008 @ 12:28 pm

    I would suspect he doesn’t even know what local radio station carries the broadcast of the
    “Excellence In Broadcasting Network”.

    Another Drew (wwbkaADitcy) (1b7d77)

  367. #367 Another, first you say: “Why, who knows, Rush might even get a guest column at the Slimes, and join the MSM.”

    I took you on your word on that one because your so smart.

    Then you tell me:
    “He’s been on CBS Evening News with Katie Couric and he’s been on Fox repeatedly. He seems to like having a microphone. Do you know of invitations he’s declined?”

    I’ve lost track of your latest definition of MSM, isn’t Couric and Fox MSM?

    I don’t know of any invitations that Rush has declined, I was assuming as I stated above that he has declined invitations, at least based on your insinuations that Rush wouldn’t join the “Slimes, MSM”.

    Oiram (983921)

  368. I would suspect he doesn’t even know what local radio station carries the broadcast of the
    “Excellence In Broadcasting Network”.

    Comment by Another Drew (wwbkaADitcy) — 12/31/2008 @ 12:36 pm

    Rush is on 640AM, But I mostly listen to Doug MCentire on KABC 790, but I certainly miss Laura Ingraham opposite Doug in the A.M. Where can I listen to Dr. Ingraham now? (seriously).

    Oiram (983921)

  369. You might want to keep track of who you’re talking to, Oiram.

    Pablo (99243e)

  370. For mariO,

    Here’s your listing for Laura I.

    Bakersfield KNZR 1560 5-8pm Mon-Fri
    Eureka KWSW 790 6-7pm M-F, 1-4pm Sat
    Eureka KINS 980am 3-4pm & 6-7pm M-F
    Isabella KQAB 1140 7-9am
    Los Angeles KGIL 1260 6-9am
    Modesto KFIV 1360 12-5pm Sat, 7-10pm Sun
    Modesto KMPH 840AM 6-9am M-F
    Palm Springs KPSI 920 2-4pm
    Redding KQMS 1400AM 3-5pm M-F
    Riverside-San Bernadino KMET 1490AM 5-6am, 6-9am M-F
    San Diego XESURF 540 6-9am M-F
    San Francisco KTRB 860AM 7-10pm M-F
    San Luis Obispo KPRL 1230AM 2-5pm M-F
    Sonora KVML 1450 3-6pm
    Susanville KSUE 1240 6-7pm M-F
    Victor Valley KIXW 960 6-9am

    PCD (7fe637)

  371. …at least based on your insinuations that Rush wouldn’t join the “Slimes, MSM”.

    Did someone insinuate that? I’m not seeing it.

    Pablo (99243e)

  372. Well, who knew…
    mariO lives in the Greater Los Angeles Basin.
    Probably a dedicated reader of the Dog Trainer?
    Which doesn’t seem to have had any positive influence on his intellect.

    Another Drew (wwbkaADitcy) (1b7d77)

  373. #290 Comment by Real American — 12/30/2008 @ 7:09 pm

    This is so typical. Anyone who doesn’t kowtow to Israel is an “antisemite.” It’s like when liberals call people a “racist.”

    More typical: a bigot who denies he is a bigot. This behavior is quite common among bigots, as they simply refuse to acknowledge hatred (in this case as demonstrated by his comments noted in #286). Instead the bigot insists upon justifying his behavior, not as extremist thinking, but as original, logical, and therefore morally valid judgment.

    It is not his stance that betrays is hatred, but his references to standard Klu Kux Klan doctrine.
    Compare his words to these and note the identical thoughts:

    http://www.kkk.bz/satanic_alliance_of_christians_a.htm

    http://www.mideastweb.org/us_supportforstate.htm

    Pons Asinorum (5fa803)

  374. # 290 Comment by Real American — 12/30/2008 @ 7:09 pm

    The U.S. has no obligation to take Israel’s side in a 2,000+ year old fight for a scrap of land 8,000 miles away. This shit couldn’t possibly be less important to American interests.

    As already noted, you have a flawed understanding of history so it is not surprising you do not understand (and probably never will). It is not an obligation. Feel free to re-read #242 with an open mind, if you can.

    <

    i>WW2 was not fought for Israel or for Jews. The U.S. entered that war after Japan attacked us and Germany and Italy declared war. This guarantee of Israel’s borders was never even REMOTELY a part of WW2. The attempt of the Jewish lobby to hitch hike on WW2 is a cheap fraud.

    Aside from the anti-Semitism (which you will no doubt deny) re-read #242 and #285 and note that no mention was made of Why the war was fought, but its aftermath; What should be done. Not sure if you failed to address the point because of careless reading or failure of thought.

    There were no other coherent points in you #290 post.

    Pons Asinorum (5fa803)

  375. Whew, just wanted to take out the trash before the New Year (made it by …that much). Thanks for the indulgence – it was very satisfying.

    Happy New Year!

    Pons Asinorum (5fa803)

  376. Comment by Pons Asinorum — 12/31/2008 @ 2:21 pm

    Did RA fit in the container?

    Another Drew (wwbkaADitcy) (1b7d77)

  377. Wow, what a load of tangential fertilizer I had to read to get through all 377 posts in one sitting. There have been so many tangents and tangents to tangents I’m not entirely certain how to respond. But here goes, anyway.

    Some time after WWII a piece of land was set aside for Israel and a piece of land just to the east was set aside for Palestine. The Arabs took control of that Palestine set-aside and gave it to Jordan, who subsequently ejected all the Palestinians.

    yada yada … all Arab countries attacking Israel … yada yada … Israel always winning despite “insurmountable odds” … yada yada …

    One of the countries that had been at war has signed a treaty ending that war. ONE OF THE COUNTRIES has ended the state of war with Israel. The rest of them are still officially at war with Israel. Iran, who feeds Hamas and Syria, is still at war with Israel and demands the total and complete annihilation of Israel. Syria supports Hamas and Hezbollah among other “death to Israel” terrorist groups with funding, training grounds and sanctuary. The Palestinians have never officially changed their charter–a charter requiring the total destruction of Israel–nor have they ever officially castigated Jordan for taking their land.

    Hamas does not want peaceful coexistence with Israel; Hamas wants total annihilation of Israel. There can be no peace where Hamas and Israel both exist. There can, on the other hand, be peace where Palestine and Israel both exist.

    And, yes, there are only two, count them, two democracies in the middle east–Israel and Iraq. And Iraq is in its fragile infancy as a democracy. No middle east country other than Israel affords jewish people full equal citizenship but Israel affords arab people full equal citizenship.

    Obviously Israel is to blame for all these countries and terrorist organizations attacking Israel. Obviously Israel is to blame for any and all collateral damage. Obviously without Israel, there would be no war in the middle east. Iraq under Hussein never attacked Iran, that’s a piece of conservative propaganda. Iraq under Hussein never attacked Kuwait, that’s a piece of US propaganda.

    It’s Israel’s fault, whatever “it” is. Oh, yeah, and the jews run all the central banks of the world, yeah, that’s it.

    John Hitchcock (fb941d)

  378. John Hitchcock – The Joooos also control all the media and Hollywood. You forgot to mention that, just sayin’.

    daleyrocks (5d22c0)

  379. Comment by Another Drew (wwbkaADitcy) — 12/31/2008 @ 2:23 pm

    Yes, but he did smell up the house for a while – see ya in the New Year AD, thanks for all the laughs, have a Happy New Year.

    Pons Asinorum (5fa803)

  380. Comment by Pons Asinorum — 12/31/2008 @ 4:04 pm
    Good fortune to you, Sir.

    Another Drew (wwbkaADitcy) (1b7d77)

  381. I found this interesting from Haaretz:
    The IDF has made frequent use of what is known as “knocking on the roof”: Militants are warned by phone when a residential building used to store arms will be bombed, and told to vacate the premised together with their neighbors. The weapons caches are hit only after the residents leave.

    Hamas has tried placing civilians on the roofs of such buildings when the phone call warning comes in. In these cases, the IDF fired antitank missiles near the building, and in a few cases the residents left.

    The reality – despite the bile of debris like sleepy – is that no military is as concerned about civilian casualties as the IDF.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  382. Comment by SPQR — 1/1/2009 @ 3:28 pm

    For, when you scratch the average IDF member, you find a civilian (reservist).

    AD (c5e3a1)

  383. 1.5 million men women and children have been locked in Gaza for decades all because if they were let out the white people [why not call them that?] would no longer be in their little white home.
    This is the Likud Party Platform

    The Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza are the realization of Zionist values. Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the unassailable right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel and constitutes an important asset in the defense of the vital interests of the State of Israel. The Likud will continue to strengthen and develop these communities and will prevent their uprooting.

    These are the settlers
    “Arabs to the gas chamber”
    These are the people you defend, Pat. DRJ. SPQR.

    sleepy (9d17de)

  384. Cleanup on aisle #385! Cleanup on aisle #385!

    Vrooop! Vrooop! Vrooop!

    Paul (creator of "Staunch Brayer") (ed9791)


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