Patterico's Pontifications

3/20/2008

The Clinton-Wright Photo and the “Truth about Trinity Church” Blog

Filed under: 2008 Election — DRJ @ 6:18 pm

[Guest post by DRJ]

Someone has started a blog in support of Jeremiah Wright and Trinity Church of Chicago. Entries include posts on John McCain’s pastor, Jeremiah Wright’s Presidential commendation during LBJ’s tenure, and why the UN agrees with Wright that America is racist.

In addition, the New York Times has published a photo of Bill Clinton with Jeremiah Wright taken at Clinton’s “I Repent” breakfast on 9/11/98 attended by religious leaders. The breakfast was held after Bill admitted he lied about Monica Lewinsky. The Times’ article states that the photo was provided by the Obama campaign.

However, Ben Smith at the Politico reported that the photo was originally posted at the “Truth about Trinity Church” blog but was taken down. (Smith: “Curious thing, these anonymous blogs.”)

The Clinton campaign had this terse response:

“The Obama campaign put this photo out? How pathetic.”

That about sums up the whole thing.

– DRJ

56 Responses to “The Clinton-Wright Photo and the “Truth about Trinity Church” Blog”

  1. The world’s supply of popcorn is going to be severely impacted by Democrat’s campaign and the DNC convention.

    bill-tb (26027c)

  2. Heh, Bill-TB. It might even make the ethanol crunch look like small potatoes.

    DRJ (a431ca)

  3. “UN agrees with Wright ”

    “Clinton’s “I Repent” breakfast”

    Simply too funny, DRJ.

    Dana (3e870d)

  4. Levi – Is that your blog?

    daleyrocks (906622)

  5. If were to caption that picture of Billy with Wright, it would be Billy saying: “Could you let go of my hand? I really need to use the restroom?”

    nk (34c5da)

  6. So this picture proves what about Wright? That he makes bad choices about presidential candidates?

    steve miller (0574db)

  7. The Times’ article states that the photo was provided by the Obama campaign.

    Now that’s rich.

    After working feverishly to disavow and downplay his twenty-year bond with Rev. Wright, Senator Obama’s supporters are now trying to shift blame to his primary opponent because the person to whom she is married once shook hands with Rev. Wright?

    And what the heck was Rev. Wright thinking anyway, shaking hands with the white supremacist leader of the U.S. of KKK-A?

    Chris L (645566)

  8. I is not surprising that a pastor to one of the largest black churches in Chicago would on occasion visit the White House for one political event or another.

    There is no way that can be equated to a 20 year tenure with that same church and pastor.

    So if someone from the Obama campaign is trying to paint Hillary by association, they are not going to get very far with that approach.

    SlimGuy (ea6549)

  9. The point is that Mr Wright is pretty ‘mainstream’ in his ministry
    as far as the black American churches
    go. I don’t see any problem with him
    venting his feelings regarding racism.
    ‘His’ experience with racism in
    this country is obviously very different
    than the average politically correct
    white persons experience. It is getting
    to the point in this country where it
    is almost a sin to think differently
    or voice a different perspective than
    mainstream white America. When black
    Americans decry racism in this country
    white America screams lack of patriotism
    i.e., that in condemning racists in America
    blacks are condemning America. Blacks know
    the difference, whites don’t want to know the
    difference. There are soooo many white
    racist ministers spewing racism in this
    country that it goes unnoticed by white
    America. If all the white people left
    their church every time one of their
    ministers said something politically
    incorrect or racist, the churches would
    be empty. Racism is accepted, anti-Americanism
    is not accepted. White Americans point to so-called black
    anti-Americanism to justify
    their racism. It is a very sad affair
    that this has resulted in Obama being blamed
    for Mr Wright’s views, or to expect him
    to leave his neighborhood church.. Where would
    he go…what church is politically correct enough?
    Maybe this is why it is better to leave politics
    out of the church. However, racism is more than
    a political issue. Racism is a moral issue.

    CM Knudsen (9af306)

  10. obama is a very clever politician. a once in a lifetime politician. that is why they will do everything to win the presidency. that is his racial pride. his revenge. maybe himself suffered from racism. he is very good at presenting himself. he is wise to know what to say, and when to say it. that is his expertise.
    they are very good at turning things around to put clinton in bad light. it makes me cringed that the rest of the american people, and the media buy it.
    if you open obama’s suitcase you will see the congregation jubilating.
    obama is trying to divert the attention now to the clintons. it is intellectually, politically motivated.

    MARRY (13d759)

  11. Didn’t Pastor Wright claim Bill Clinton ” Did Him Dirty”. So why would he attend?

    Dennis D (ae900a)

  12. A church is more than one pastor or minister, it is a congregation of your family, friends and neighbors, working together for the betterment and refinement of your community and neighborhood in the service of Christ. It would
    be very difficult for anyone to leave their neighborhood church and go off to attend another
    simply because one person, the pastor, had a bad hair day once in awhile. I wouldn’t do it.
    And I don’t think most people would do it. People who are committed to service in their own community among their family and neighbors certainly wouldn’t do it.

    CM Knudsen (9af306)

  13. C.M.Knudsen likens a Wright tirade of sedition, hate and prejudice to a “bad hair day” ?!?!?!

    Robert Dalton (6d2811)

  14. Pres Clinton invited very left wing preachers to his confessional to get support because they never condemn sexual sins. Rev Wright was egregious not in attacking racism, that is wonderful. His sin is lack of forgiveness and adding to the racism. Wright is wrong to preach hatred. His lies about AIDS and Whites will push racial healing back a decade.

    Gary Sweeten (80638b)

  15. Jeremiah Wright’s stated views amount to much more than a “bad hair day”, as per the comments of CM Knudsen. Jeremiah Wright’s comments enunciate a set of beliefs that approaches that of Nazism, and for much the same reasons. Race-based hatred is not a minor character flaw, nor is it justified by genuine grievances.

    Germany’s post-WWI suffering resulted in no small part from the harsh conditions imposed by the Versailles treaty. One could argue that this was a legitimate grievance. The Nazis falsely placed the blame for this grievance at the feet of “world Jewry”, and harnessed incipient (and open) anti-Semitism to their cause, inventing hideous accusations of ongoing crimes against the German people.

    Rev. Wright takes a legitimate grievance (slavery) and to a degree unfairly narrows the focus of the blame. Slavery is a stain on humanity. It has been practiced by all races, including Africans enslaving Africans. Whites enslaved blacks in this country, and this is a truly monstrous legacy. However, he chooses to blame the evil of slavery exclusively on white Europeans, and has invented or propagated ridiculous conspiracy theories “proving” that whites continue genocide against blacks to the present day. He is inflaming, and harnessing, incipient (and open) anti-white racism to his cause, inventing hideous accusations of ongoing crimes against the African-American people.

    Race hatred is insidious. It has led to the worst crimes ever perpetrated. Taken to its logical conclusion, it justifies murder and mayhem. It has been recently suggested that Jeremiah Wright’s views are considered “not far” from the mainstream views of black America. This is deeply alarming if true.

    One does not befriend evil, get married by evil, take one’s family to spend Sundays with evil over a 20 yr period, and then claim ignorance of the nature of that evil. Indeed, it is hard to see how one would not, to some degree, be infected by it.

    Rick S. (2830ac)

  16. It has now gotten to the point where American media outlet representatives (NYT, FOXNEWS, MSNBC, CNN and their self-righteous bombastic pundits), has, in spite of everything else, put itself in a plantation type position of thinking it has the RIGHT to establish some type of half-baked litmus test and guidepost for Patriotism, religious freedom and appropriate way of life, as some type of “Master slave overseer” of what is or isn’t appropriate for black people to say or listen to in their private moments. Black people “better” adhere to any white American position on what is “fair”, what is patriotic and what blacks are supposed to be doing in their places of worship or there is hell to pay for it. Those black folks “better explain to our satisfaction” anything “they” are uncomfortable with!?!? Any “mom, pop or grandma on the street who wonders why Obama, remained a member of Trinity Church in Chicago 20 years” can stuff it. Obama like any other U.S. Citizen doesn’t have to explain to anyone what his reasons are. (By the way, he did already, very eloquently.) Who knows what is “going on” and “being said” in anyone’s church (McCain, Bush, Cheney and Clinton included), if they attend one. These CONSTANT references to this bias is disgusting.

    Frannie (a50730)

  17. The nature of the conversation would be a nice thing to know, one can only assume… “Sure, I can introduce you to her, she’s right over here. Her name is Monica.”

    Nuclear Midnight (18725b)

  18. No Frannie, you are completely wrong. Obama does have to explain if he wants anyone to vote for him. If he wants to attend a church filled with hatred and racism, he can of course do so, he just isn’t going to be elected to office. And he shouldn’t be.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  19. #16: Any “mom, pop or grandma on the street who wonders why Obama, remained a member of Trinity Church in Chicago 20 years” can stuff it. Obama like any other U.S. Citizen doesn’t have to explain to anyone what his reasons are.

    You forget that Obama wants us to vote for him based on his judgement because of his lack of experience.

    We are presented with several bodies of evidence that exhibit poor quality judgement, the pastor association being merely the latest. And we are to simply ignore such a background.

    Riiiiiiiiight.

    Paul (249390)

  20. How many Catholics out there have left the Catholic church with all of the scandals in recent years (and there have been many)? Was anybody criticizing Giuliani for his bold affair? McCain’s affair story was all but whispered for a couple of days. Has Hillary left Bill because of his views and actions with other women? America has issues; let’s face it, and he who has no sin keep throwing stones. The real issue is that the fear a Black man leading America is the sad crisis we are faced with. They had to go back years to find indirect dirt on someone. This would happen even if Colin Powell was running! (Hate hasn’t changed; it simply put on a new garment).

    M.Tate (44ff6f)

  21. The real issue is that the fear a Black man leading America is the sad crisis we are faced with.

    No, M. Tate, the real issue is that we have a Black man with no governing experience seeking the presidency ask us to vote for him based on his judgement. Examples presented here on thisblog and many others of said judgement are of poor quality.

    See the difference?

    Paul (249390)

  22. I thought that Bill was ALREADY labeled a RACIST during the South Carolina primary. Is this photo from the Obama people intended to confirm that???

    Looks like Obama is finally throwing Granny AND Uncle Jeremiah under the bus!? How many more family members can he afford to trash???

    Barack (I hate my family) Obama (a78c0e)

  23. You should click on that link that “proves” McCain says the same thing Wright did and help me out here. I’ve listened to it twice and I still can’t find the part where McCain’s pastor said “God Damn America” or blames whitey for the AIDS virus. It equates abortion to genocide, which is obviously something pro choicers like myself disagree with strongly, but at least he isn’t making stuff up wholesale.

    Sean P (e57269)

  24. the photo of ex Pres Clinton with Rev Wright is
    just another example of the Clintons willing to do
    anything and use anyone for their own purposes. THOSE PRESIDENTIAL PAPERS PROVE hILLARY cLINTON NEVER SAT IN ON ANY CAbinet meetings. sHE WAS IN THE wHITE hOUSE THE SAME TIME AS mONICA lEWINSKY

    jan michalsen (c36902)

  25. I was not inclined to pay much attention to jan’s little rant, until the ALL CAPS SECTION. Then I realized how very serious of a statement it was.

    JD (75f5c3)

  26. Dalton,
    You missed the point…The Reverend Wright is not the church. The congregation in the community is the church. Reverend Wright isn’t the Pope…he’s a pastor or minister. He is not worshiped, and probably not even listened to very much on certain subjects…just like your old grand-father…Why don’t you give people credit to know the difference. Why don’t you get over your fear
    and practice some Christianity and reach out. Or are you like George Bush – too afraid to face your perceived demons for fear the demon may be you.
    I don’t think I have ever witnessed such bigotry and bias and outright cowardice as I have over the Reverend Wright situation. It certainly struck a chord of fear in a lot of people.

    CM Knudsen (9af306)

  27. RicK S..
    What did you say your definition of evil was?
    From your article it sounds like you believe evil may be any one but you. Racism is
    a fact in this country. We may have come a long
    way in the past 10 to 15 years but some very ugly and horrendous things took place in this country in regards to slavery etc and they are continuing up to today..

    You may be able to put Reverend Wright’s comments into better perspective if you imagined the Jews
    loving Germany and the German SS during the holocaust. There were Germans who felt the Jews should, and thought Jews were traitors and criminals because they didn’t.

    Apparently you have no idea or have never walked in the shoes of victims of racism. You condemn those who haven’t enjoyed the same blessings you have in this country. Ask an American Indian what they think of the government…
    Please get some perspective. When one says ‘God damn America’ they aren’t talking about the land, they are talking about the bitter experience they have had at the hands of the people in power of that country…who, by the way, were, and are, (in their treatment of minority people) acting outside of the laws of the beloved constitution, laws, and religions they claim to cherish.

    CM Knudsen (9af306)

  28. CM Knudsen writes: “I don’t think I have ever witnessed such bigotry and bias and outright cowardice as I have over the Reverend Wright situation. ”

    I agree, I’ve not seen such bigotry and bias in many years, until I read and listened to Rev. Wright. He had more bigotry, bias and whacky stupidity in his sermons than I’ve heard in many years. When Wright says “god damn America” he is not talking about his bitter experiences, he’s talking about whacky nutter conspiracy theories about events that never happened.

    By the way, Knudsen, my American Indian friends are the most patriotic people I know.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  29. SPOR

    You keep calling the victims the bigots, That’s like calling the Jews the bigots if they decry and display their outrage over the holocaust and treatment at the hands of the SS.

    I wasn’t talking about your Cherokee Indian friends. I was talking about Native Americans.

    Maybe the Reverend is getting senile and that’s where the nutty conspiracy theories are coming from. Is there any room in you to believe anything other than what Fox news pumps you full of i.e., fear and bigotry. Talk about knee-jerk reactions and thoughtless condemnation of a person over his listening to a mindless sermonizing rant. The era of witch hunting has truly returned.
    What is it you fear?? You should not fear at all, after all George Bush is the great protector. But you and some of the others on here sound terrified.

    You wrote:

    “He had more bigotry, bias and whacky stupidity in his sermons than I’ve heard in many years”

    What I’ve heard from Wright is nothing.
    Come to Idaho and listen to your white Aryan Brotherhood’s sermons. They march the streets in parades at times…And what they say makes Wright’s words pale by comparison. These boys know
    how to spew the hate and bigotry…trust me. And guess what? Everybody says they have a right to
    say and display as long as there is no violence and breaking of the law…because this is AMERICA.
    Explain why Fox isn’t all over the Aryans when it happens, like they are Wright. If you can.

    CM Knudsen (9af306)

  30. Knudsen, you really are a cute one. Your analogy with respect to Jews is a cheap, disgusting little bit of irrational excrement.

    It does not take “fear” to explain why I do not want to see a racist’s protege like Obama in the White House.

    I’ll assume that your little Cherokee remark was some sort of bigoted comment by you and mark it to confirmation of how low you are. My indian acquaintances are in fact Lakota Sioux ( one with two tours in Iraq ), and Navajo ( son and grandson of Pacific War Navajo talker in fact, one with two volunteer tours in Vietnam ).

    The Aryan Brotherhood are not mine. And since you seem to agree that Wright is on their level, you obviously also must conclude that people who associate with them – like Obama – are not fit for office. Fox is not all over the Aryans because they are not pushing forward a candidate for President for one of the two major political parties. This should be obvious to anyone able to tie their own shoes unassisted.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  31. SPOR
    I didn’t think you would be able to defend your
    bigotry, only with more of the same. There is nothing irrational in my comparison.
    And your patriotic American Indians serving in other lands are being discriminated against terribly at home. Ask your Indian friends about my reference to Cherokees, they will know what I’m talking about.
    Have you been fighting for your Indian friends here at home ….or just patting yourself on your back because you have Indian friends….whichof course proves you are not a racist bigot, doesn’t it?
    A couple of the kids in my family are on their 3rd and 4th tours in Iraq. I support them fully and support the draft. It would be nice if some of your war-loving patriotic leaders would send some of their kids to fight and give my nephews a little break. Anyone heard from Bush’s daughters lately, or Cheney’s daughter (?)

    Fox is not all over the Aryans because Fox can’t tell the difference between themselves and the Aryans, and neither can I.

    And it isn’t true that a particular person running for a major political party isn’t receiving the full support of the Aryans. It has happened in this election and in prior elections.
    No one pays attention because Aryans are just white nutcases.

    And the next time you see that Lakota Sioux Russel Means and his brother tell them hi for me.

    CM Knudsen (9af306)

  32. Knudsen, now I’m a bigot? Based on you pulling stuff from your alimentary canal evidently.

    The only bigotry I see here is yours.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  33. SPOR
    It is evident you have given your entire input and have nothing more of any interest to add so I will bid you farewell.

    CM Knudsen (9af306)

  34. Knudsen, I don’t bid you farewell, instead I merely scrape you off the bottom of my shoe.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  35. CM Knudsen….you support the draft…

    What draft???

    Oh, and since you have kids in their 3rd and 4th tours in Iraq, you support the troops…

    Do you support the MISSION???

    Did Obama serve??? How about Hillary??? If not, how can either have anything to say about how the military will/should be run??? With no experience, I guess both will just turn it into some quasi-police force, right???

    Now, I write this without reading any thing above your post at #31, and I do it to point out the falacies of your points. Everything you will/could/would say about my points above can and should be taken about yours…

    Next time, make an argument….

    Oh, and by the way, I guess you have black friends, so that you won’t be considered a racist, either, right? Do you have animal friends, so you won’t be attacked at home by the ALF???

    By the way, just so you know…I volunteered to be a Marine, and did that while there was a draft, and my number was 317, so I didn’t have to go at all….

    Semper Fi…sleep well while we guard the wall for you….

    reff (59b2ad)

  36. P.S…I’ve walked, as a white man, in the shoes of racism….experienced as black people beat me senseless for the privilage of being white….

    Happened twice in my life….and I was saved the second time by a black man….who put himself between me and the assholes….he told me something that shaped my character….

    “They’re not black, they’re assholes.”

    I’ve hated assholes all my life….and skin color has nothing to do with it….

    reff (59b2ad)

  37. Oh, Pleeezzze, I didn’t mean to draw so many of you out! It is obvious that you are very touchy about being called racist while you simultaneously call Obama a bigot for having a bigot for a preacher. No one has answered my question..
    or addressed my premises:

    1. A church is not the pastor
    2. pastors of congregations come and go & die
    3. A church is a congregation of your neighborhood community, family and friends, serving together for the betterment and refinement of the neighborhood community in service to God. Churches and congregations are
    meant to carry on, unlike people who will eventually die.

    I’ll add a few more:

    4. A church is a place of tolerance…not only tolerance for opinions we do like but understanding and tolerance for opinions we don’t like.
    5. A church is a place where we teach one another (everyone included) – where even the most educated come to realize there are things the very uneducated people can teach them and who are often surprised at how quickly the uneducated can learn from them, it’s a very vice-versa situation.
    6. A church is a place to lift one another up
    (and yes, even the pastors need lifting up and have need of learning)
    7. A pastor or minister is not exempt from needing to overcome his shortcomings
    8. Pastors and ministers are not infallible.
    9. Pastors and ministers are also sinners
    10.One of the biggest excuses some people use for failure to attend church is they don’t like their pastors viewpoints
    11. a church is also a refuge- a place where people are taught to forgive one another’s shortcomings with hope that their shortcomings will be forgiven. There should be a big sign on the wall -IF YOU CAN’T FORGIVE, YOU CAN’T ATTEND!

    Now, if you attend a church that doesn’t operate along these lines, then I certainly don’t think it will bear much fruit as far as uplifting your community. It may keep a community stable, but that is all.

    A church where there are simply listeners (to pastors) and not doers and actual teaching of one another, can usually be defined as places where people vent (through the pastors preaching) what they themselves are having trouble venting in the larger society. I believe that is why so much politics has been introduced into the churches.
    Wright’s type of political preacher (both black & white) may be what is keeping their communities from full explosion, or reaching critical mass as far as the race issue is concerned, and may actually be keeping the lid on a tight situation.
    That does not prove that the whole congregation is a congregation of bigots, simply that the congregation as a whole is collectively venting their sometimes very real frustrations about their treatment at the hands of the larger black/white society. The door swings both ways and there are too many instances of rage preaching to angry congregations on each side to single out Obama as a bigot based on what one preacher is saying.
    He is no more a bigot than anyone else, and from what I’ve seen, he is very tolerant and patient, even toward Hillary, which I would say is why people have qualified him as a saint.

    CM Knudsen (9af306)

  38. ” Ask an American Indian what they think of the government…”

    I am a card-carrying American Indian who read this thread through several times and maybe its just me but it feels as if you are attempting to generalize (in perhaps a discrimnatory way) a minority group to justify your position…almost as if you assume they will be bitter, angry, resentful about this America…but surely you don’t mean to use the American Indian to justify your point, nor do you mean to infer that there are those of us who have indeed experienced our share of slurs, and have watched family still existing on the rez, would think any other way than what you assume most minority groups would feel toward a country that betrayed us, stole from us, kept us down? Surely you don’t mean to to do that.

    I’m sure you don’t because there are those of us who look at this America and still believe with every fiber of our being that it is the greatest place in the world, and that freedom and democracy, although not perfect and threatened in this post-modern world, are still the strongest fibers of our country’s weave. And we are not stupid nor naive nor clueless. We just know what is out there, know what it could still be, and know that no where else are people given the endless opportunity to rise above, overcome, and make of their individual lives what they want it to be.

    And of course, of course, this is the hardest work of all. But there are those of that not afraid of that hard work required.

    Dana (fba430)

  39. reff:

    What draft? The draft in the minds of the American people who believe there are an endless number of fresh troops to send to the front. The real draft that is not there, but should be if we are to spend the next 100 years in Iraq. Ever thought about how many years get taken up in 3 or 4 tours of overseas war combat? Ever think about how many children are growing up without their mothers or fathers…not just a year or 2, but entire childhoods without parents, ever think of the divorce rate of people who have been separated too long. Ever think of the loss of education to young soldiers trapped for years by war? Ever think about the actual consequences? All you people who support this mission the way it is being conducted and support the so-called reason it was conducted need only to go to Iraq…you can join up at Blackwater USA. It’s a dot com. Or just enlist. Go to work for one of the American or foreign contractors in Iraq. If you support the war FIGHT THE WAR! Don’t tell me why you don’t or didn’t have to go. Or that you can’t! In other words, put up or shut up! Send your kids!! Send your grand-kids.
    Quit condemning people who don’t like the war. There are legitimate reasons for not liking this war, or any war.. but especially this war.
    The Generals tell you over and over there is NO MILITARY SOLUTION TO THIS WAR, that it has to be political!! You don’t listen.
    Instead you listen to George Bush & John McCain
    who apparently know more than the generals. Does Bush or McCain have more experience than the generals? You listen to a President who doesn’t have the nerve to face our enemies or talk to them – one who has had no war experience. A President who governs and leads you easily through your obvious fear as you stand shaking in your shoes.
    As for me, I’d rather have the Iraqi’s not be able to face us for talks, than us not able to face them. I think there is a reason for Bush’s refusal to go face to face with them in talks. He is a coward.
    You should think about that more closely. It may be that he simply can’t face them after what he has done.
    John McCain did serve in a war experience, but he too believes he knows more than the generals.
    Is this now the criteria for becoming POTUS – serving in the armed forces & convincing people you know more than your generals, the generals who are actually fighting the war?

    CM Knudsen (9af306)

  40. Dana,
    You should love this country, it belonged to your people long before it belonged to the rest of the people here…which it doesn’t actually…it belongs only to God.

    I did not mean to single the Indians out, but merely to add them to the long list of groups of people who are discriminated against by other groups in this society. The door swings all ways on discrimination. But the people in political power, have the greatest ability to discriminate, and the greatest responsibility to keep from discriminating against others. People who are lucky enough to be of the same gender and race (and religion) as the people in power are usually the greatest abusers at the expense of other minorities. It bothers me for people in power to condemn those who have suffered bigotry and racism simply because they are tired of hearing the victims ‘whining’ as they call it.
    I do think there needs to be a greater understanding and greater tolerance by those in power toward those who have truly suffered. You can bet that if the shoe were on the other foot, you would hear a great and tremendous outcry. I also think there needs to be an end to the use of the minority crutch to excuse lack of performance by certain groups.
    Above all there must be justice. People must be treated equally & fairly! There is absolutely no excuse for anything else in this country. Victims of injustice do not heal overnight, and this country is not going to heal overnight. And pointing the finger of blame will not solve the problem, but only make it worse. And for any group to merely pay lip service to the ideals which made this country great is not where it’s at.
    Those ideals absolutely must be put in place and acted upon for and by all people in this country, or the entire concept will erode. Many think it already has – beyond repair.
    Obama understands this. You people who are so defensive, and indignant about your racism, or lack of racism, are a big part of the problem. You have the entire problem centered in your self.

    There is no such thing as sloganizing this country into equality. Slogans like This is still the greatest and best democracy on earth , and This country isn’t perfect, but is better than any other country will not bring a successful resolution to our problems. It is going to take extremely hard and honest insight and hard, hard work to bring the American dream to all of the American people. Obama understands the depth of this problem in this country. Bush and McCain act as if there is no problem. Just lock them all up and throw the key away – that is their slogan.

    I just see where McCain has adopted a close derivative of Obama’s “Yes we can” campaign slogan… The same way Hillary did. If Obama is so bad, why are they all imitating him?

    CM Knudsen (9af306)

  41. #40, you miss my point. I suspect you selected American Indians and other minority groups because you believed them to be in such lock-step agreement with regard to the subject matter that your argument would automatically be supported by any who were reading the comments.

    When you stereotype and assume like this its like slights the individual thinker. Not all of us follow that lead. Some of us attempt to avoid the group-think reflex and work through matters individually. Our basic presuppositions with regard to race and bigotry and the state of man may also widely vary.

    #40, I “should love this country” but not because of who was here first, or what people in my lineage suffered and lost, nor because of what you think. I should love and do love this country because of a clear, unarguable recognition of what this country represents to me as a citizen so privileged to live here. I have been to other countries, and have seen firsthand that what exists there has paled in comparison. So for you to reduce this as mere slogans is demeaning. They are beliefs I hold dear. Simple, perhaps, but who are you to judge?

    Even with re to the American dream – you look to the government to make it happen for everyone. I don’t. Its not an entitlement. Its an available gift for every citizen (and apparently, non-citizen!) to take hold of. And thats where the immensely hard work comes in to play. There will though be obstacles – the frailties of human beings is pretty notorious but it doesn’t make the attainment impossible.

    I believe Obama is confused. He is trying to be too many things to too many men and has subsequently lost his own identity. And he also believes its the government’s responsbility to solve the issues of racism. While he may understand an aspect of the problem at large, I think he misses a huge part of it, too. And I just don’t believe he can solve doodley-squat. Again, the problem with looking to the government for sovling what is essentially, IMO, a moral problem, is like pushing the big rock uphill. Eventually, it will just roll right back down.

    Dana (fba430)

  42. Dana,

    You seem determined to argue and put things in my mouth and assume my attitudes. Much the same thing you accuse me of.

    Where do I claim that I expect the government to do it all. I have been in business all my life and am not in to handouts and have received none. I also have been a republican all my life…I also voted for Regan and every Republican who has run for office in this state since I have been old enough to vote…which is a long time. This is Idaho, Red State Republican…but not this time..not for me…I’m tired of the arrogance of this government who ignores the will of the people and trashes our rights and constitution with impunity and has exposed us to the world in shame.
    Think Abu Ghraib…Guantanamo…our own American prison system, our own SS style police force.

    I don’t expect the government to do anything except insure that equal Justice prevails through the courts and protect us from foreign invasion…which did not happen in the Iraqi war.

    You have written about Obama:

    While he may understand an aspect of the problem at large, I think he misses a huge part of it, too. And I just don’t believe he can solve doodley-squat.

    You have given your assessment of Obama, no doubt based on the same broad brush of generalizations you have painted me with i.e, – a liberal, bleeding heart and begging for every gov handout he/I can get and blaming the poor suffering hardworking Repubs who have only been trying to help while spending their tax money on all these programs…and no one appreciates it. Darn.

    Funny how no one seems to mind spending a billion dollars a week on the Iraqi war machine. That’s a pretty large government handout keeping the American Corporations & contractors going in another country and rebuilding what our gov keeps blowing up over there.
    But all those American and foreign contractors in Iraq are making it on their own No gov handouts there. Right!!! Our troops are coming home dead to keep those contractors going on war money.

    The present Administration is cashing in and looting the land and coffers of our gov and the Iraqi gov. Why do you think they keep talking about the enormous amount of treasure the war is costing the American people (tax-payer) (Bush claims the war is worth it) You should ask yourself who is being fed by this war and whose mouth is being emptied – and for whom is it worth it. And how long it will take us to pay China off, and a few other questions.

    Cheney was just asked by a reporter on CNN his opinion on the fact that two-thirds of the American public is against the war…His response, “So” followed by and a smirk to go with it.

    You have written about Obama:

    While he may understand an aspect of the problem at large, I think he misses a huge part of it, too. And I just don’t believe he can solve doodley-squat.

    Just which one of the other white people running for office understand all aspects…McCain? who doesn’t have a clue about the economy, and doesn’t claim to, and doesn’t even have a clue as to who is who in Iraq, and Iran…( he did sing a song – bomb, bomb, bomb, Iran – he’s a comic like Bush, compensates for his lack of knowledge with humor) – Hillary, who has a right hand man to help her with the economic situation – however, I believe they will find it very unlike what they faced the last time….and no one knows if we can count on them to pull it out again – or if she will even be able to find Bill when she needs his help, a woman who listened to the majority of ‘men’ on the invasion of Iraq…. The Hillary who seems to get rattled and desperate in tight situations (and does throw lamps)…danger sign? The Hillary who has no presidential experience – outside of covering her husbands bad behavior.

    Just what part of the problems at large don’t you think Obama has a handle on…In comparison to the others. He appears and is very educated, willing to listen, seems to have good judgement, and has integrity, and willing to explore different avenues to end the Iraq war disaster… which by now everyone (except Bush/Cheney/McCain) knows it was and is. Obama doesn’t rattle easily, appears to be able to remain calm and thoughtful not making snap judgements. Obama who has much of the world hopeful he will be elected because he may be able to restore some of the respect and admiration of the world that has been trashed by the Bush Administration and their radical cohorts…

    How anyone can even consider McCain is beyond me. McCain who worships the Bush war policy and actually appears to worship war. You won’t find anything coming from McCain different than Bush, except McCain is even more of a fanatic than Bush and a very narrow thinker, believing there is only one way to solve global problems and that way is with force. It makes me wonder if he is attempting to settle scores of sorts for being held captive by the ‘enemy’ in Viet Nam. Enemy being the operative word..He is even parroting Bush and adopting his arrogance and manner of speaking to other countries. He is now telling China (our banker, sigh) what and what is not acceptable behavior on their part.

    No, this time I will not vote Republican period, and I will vote for change.

    CM Knudsen (9af306)

  43. CM Knudsen,

    Please name one bipartisan bill on a controversial topic that Obama has initiated and sponsored in the Senate.

    DRJ (a431ca)

  44. I have a hard time believing that ole CM is a lifelong republican as he claims based on the standard lefty boilerplate in comment 42. It’s a good thing spittle doesn’t come through the internet.

    daleyrocks (906622)

  45. CM Knudsen, yikes. I admit it, I completely stymied by your comments.

    Dana (fba430)

  46. oops, should read, I am completely stymied by your comments….boilerplate, yeah, thats it.

    Dana (fba430)

  47. CM Knudsen,
    McCain loves war? Yeah, he longs for those days of broken arms, no medical treatment and constant beatings all due to war.

    Do you enjoy exposing your blatant ingornace?

    retire05 (9c1baa)

  48. Dana – I forgot to point out that lifelong Republican, CM, didn’t even spell Reagan right.

    I don’t buy the act.

    daleyrocks (906622)

  49. To whom it may concern:

    Talk about Ignorance! Take a typo and use it as proof that I’m a bleeding heart liberal. You might not buy it, but what I’ve said about my voting record is true and I can give any of you references to persons who absolutely know it. In fact when my brother and sister found out I was against the war – it is immoral and it’s breaking us, and voting for Obama if he gets the nomination, they have all but disowned me. My sister now refuses to discuss politics with me at all, and my brother pretty much has taken the same stance that you all do, that any deviation from absolute party line pro-Bush insanity is proof I’m a traitor and not fit for family functions- I thought this kind of thing only happened during the civil war, but found out I am wrong.

    However, I remain strongly pro-life, rabidly-anti abortion, rabidly anti-gun control – I believe that gun control is an abomination because it leaves a population and it’s children at the mercy of tyrants and invaders – and it’s own government gone bad, (think Ruby Ridge – right out my back door- and Waco – and Abu Ghraib – and Guantanamo again) I strongly oppose gay marriage, and taxes (again-remember, I’m in Idaho – everybody in Idaho hates taxes…don’t believe me? Just come here and ask anyone)
    But you are phoneys when you say you don’t like big government. You appear to love it when it serves right-wing causes!
    Let’s see, who got the big bail-outs by the Feds this week…oh yes, it was the banks, wasn’t it?
    Another place we absolutely differ. You all love absolute police (gov) power over the people. You all love huge brotherhoods of (secret style) police (dressed in black with dogs) and huge costly prisons to imprison your fellow citizens…etc…None of you seem to mind that kind of big time (extremely costly) governmental control. All of you ‘throw the keys away lovers of justice’ You are intolerant and bigoted and as blind as Bush, Cheney, & McCain are to the huge divides and enormous problems brewing and simmering right below the surface in this country. The only difference is that you may care, but Bush, Cheney, McCain don’t care. Isn’t this really the basis of your fear – the smoldering of so many injustices ready to erupt?

    Remember, where there is no justice, there is no peace! And won’t be! History proves it.

    What happened to your equal justice for all ideal…decide to throw that one out too – along with the Bill of Rights and half the Constitution? The Constitution and flag you wrap your self so proudly in!! Seems you have no problem trashing the Constitution as long as you are secure and protected by your corrupt judiciary? What hypocrisy.
    You are so over the edge radical and party-line absolute, that any sniff of a differing opinion is proof to you that a person is a rabid bleeding heart liberal – therefore evil. Shades of Salem.
    Proof of fear!!

    The truth is you are rabid intolerant fear-mongering robotic Bushite Republicans interested only in yourselves and your own selfish interests. And the truth is, if you don’t address your fears and cowardice and deal with this countries problems you will finish destroying this country and yourselves along with it.

    You have to remember where I come from – that Idaho is RED and votes RED. You also have to know that Idaho(and much of the west) voted Obama this time. You also should conclude that some of the Republicans that you’ve heard of switching to Obama are from Idaho. I am one of them! Jeeezzzz! What’s so hard to figure. You got a problem with that? Or have you thrown out freedom of speech too?

    CM Knudsen (9af306)

  50. Retire05:

    Of course McCain doesn’t long for war with him having to fight, and as President he wouldn’t have to fight. But his military experience and dogged determination to overcome his enemy (in Vietnam) may have skewed his judgement on the need to overcome militarily in Iraq…just a thought. It just seems that he doesn’t want a negotiated end…as the generals say must happen, but that he wants blood and a great military victory. The thinking about Vietnam is that we weren’t allowed to win militarily there. Maybe he doesn’t want a repeat….To me it seems obvious that McCain, like Bush, is determined at any cost to succeed militarily……something all the experts and generals say can’t happen.
    His whole Vietnam experience no doubt influences how he looks at the present situation…rightly or wrongly.
    McCain is acting as though the success of the Surge is proof that the war was justified. There is a big disconnect there. The Surge succeeding is not proof that the war was justified to begin with. I have not heard McCain say the war was a mistake and that we shouldn’t have gone there. He is as stubborn as Bush. I’ve always been taught that stubborn and stupid are synonymous.
    It seems some people are willing to go around like rabid dogs attacking and bombing any country that presents even the remotest threat to the US.
    The American public who puts up with this kind of policy (pre-emptive strikes ) do so simply out of fear and cowardice…and paranoia.
    -and the real enemy ( al Qaeda) knows that and uses it against us with delight. We need a change!

    CM Knudsen (9af306)

  51. Frannie..you are more than correct in your analysis of what is going on here. It is sad that black people will always know and acknowledge what has happened in this country. As soon as “White America” is called out even when they have discriminated, continue to have very strong feelings and doubt about a “Black Man” leading this country, can not understand blacks and or the God we serve. We want keep it moving but just the continued conversations and reports about Rev. Wright lets us know “White America” still are for the most part in denial about race relations. I remember hearing “I have a lot of black friends.” My best friend is black. So why???? What does it matter who are you trying to convince? Just as now….Senator Obama is so close to winning the presidency they don’t know what to do. “Watch out for tall buildings and bridges…..we are going to have and overflow.

    caf08 (de1dd3)

  52. Kudos CM Knudsen!!!

    caf08 (de1dd3)

  53. See what happens when you hit the nail on the head….it closes the coffin – and all the little bugs crawl away back into their holes.

    Thanks, caf08…VOTE OBAMA!!!

    CM Knudsen (9af306)

  54. That was your thumb, not a nail.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  55. It seems some people are willing to go around like rabid dogs attacking and bombing any country that presents even the remotest threat to the US.

    CM – Clinton bombed more countries than Bush. Is he one of those people? Who are these people of which you speak and what is your evidence?

    daleyrocks (906622)

  56. It’s sad when citizens exercising their vote for the highest elected office in this country choose to focus on the color of a candidate’s skin or their gender as opposed to the candidate’s qualifications for office or policies as cafo8 suggests above by supporting Obama because he is half black.

    daleyrocks (906622)


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