Patterico's Pontifications

11/2/2017

White House Lies About Trump Comments on U.S. Justice System

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 8:30 am



Yesterday Susan Wright quoted Donald Trump’s comments at a Cabinet meeting in which he called the U.S. justice system a “laughingstock.” Here are the relevant remarks from the official transcript:

That was a horrible event, and we have to stop it, and we have to stop it cold. We also have to come up with punishment that’s far quicker and far greater than the punishment these animals are getting right now. They’ll go through court for years. And at the end, they’ll be — who knows what happens.

We need quick justice and we need strong justice — much quicker and much stronger than we have right now. Because what we have right now is a joke and it’s a laughingstock. And no wonder so much of this stuff takes place. And I think I can speak for plenty of other countries, too, that are in the same situation.

(He followed that up with Twitter comments calling for the death penalty for the terrorist, which is stupid and will create issues for the prosecution, but gets him a quick chance to Look Tough on Twitter — and which is more important, after all?)

Amusingly, the White House spokeshole, Sarah F-word-abee Sanders, later denied Trump had said that, in an exchange with showboat Jim Acosta.

A few hours after Trump’s Cabinet meeting, CNN’s Jim Acosta asked White House press secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders, “Why did the president call the U.S. justice system a joke and a laughingstock?”

“That’s not what he said,” Sanders replied. “He said that process has people calling us a joke and a laughingstock.”

That is what he said. You can watch it yourself. CNBC put together video of both sets of remarks (set to annoying music).

Trump calls US justice system ‘a laughing stock,’ White House denies it from CNBC.

It seems like a prepared answer, which means she had to . . . prepare it. Which means she had to watch footage of Trump’s remarks and create a response.

Which means her response was a premeditated lie.

If the White House could stop lying, I could stop talking about how they lie.

The absolute best case scenario is that this is an accidental misstatement. In which case a) this woman is totally incompetent, and b) they need to fix it. But of course they won’t. Never ever admit error about anything. That’s their motto.

P.S. This is a post about White House lies, and not about what Trump said. But since people will discuss the latter in the comments, I’ll add a word about that. The justice system is not a laughingstock. But, to the extent that Trump’s remarks could be interpreted as the way the judicial system deals with the death penalty, his words have some justice. The treatment of the death penalty in this country (and in my state of California) is indeed a joke, with lawmakers not taking it seriously and throwing as many obstacles in the way of its enforcement as possible.

That does not justify lying, though.

[Cross-posted at RedState and The Jury Talks Back.]

162 Responses to “White House Lies About Trump Comments on U.S. Justice System”

  1. Our firm had a relationship with a lawyer on the other side of the country who often served as our local counsel for cases we had in his district (and vice-versa).

    He often told me a story about a young associate he was mentoring, whom he asked to sit in on a deposition in a case. During a break, she came up to him and said in shock: “That witness just lied! I cannot believe it!”

    To which he replied, sotto voce, “I am just shocked!’

    Bored Lawyer (998177)

  2. Note that the death penalty process in New York isn’t a joke; it’s simply been abolished outright.

    aphrael (3f0569)

  3. There’s federal jurisdiction, in this case.

    nk (dbc370)

  4. But let’s talk about Trump. He’s an idiot. There is not one criminal justice system in the United States. There are as many criminal justice systems as there is a federal government, a District of Columbia, U.S. territories and possessions, states, counties, boroughs, and municipalities put together.

    nk (dbc370)

  5. times 17.3.84 bb speech malreported africa rectify

    George Orwell’s 1984 can no longer be considered fiction.

    Dave (445e97)

  6. “laughingstock” is understating things

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  7. If Trump kept his promises, we wouldn’t need a criminal justice system:

    “The crime and violence that today afflicts our nation will soon come to an end. Beginning on January 20th, 2017, safety will be restored.”
    – Donald Trump, Republican National Convention, July 2016

    Dave (445e97)

  8. I agree about California and look forward to the day when “Death” Row inmates are released back into society with a gift basket from LA Mayor and Presidential Candidate Eric Garcetti along with a hearty “thank you for your service”.
    Maybe a nice press conference featuring Gov. Jerry Brown, Sen. Kamala Harris, Mayor Garcetti welcoming them home to your neighborhood given as members of the “smear and destroy your life squad” are poised at their keyboards ready to enforce policy regardless to harmfulness and idiocy.
    Because if you disagree with criminal release policies or Sanctuary policies regarding criminals, your life shall be destroyed while the criminal will be elevated and praised.

    I’m serious about the part where CA eventually moves to release death Row inmates and then whitewashes re-offenses by the released.

    I’ve got an old friend who is about 60, who has been in and out of the system his entire life beginning as a juvenile. He has never stayed out of jail or prison longer than 15 months and when he is out, I call him “Crime Wave”… he steals anything that isn’t bolted to the floor and guarded, he gets ahold of guns and sells a few and keeps the others to rob drug and beat drug dealers that don’t have permission from the cartel. He pays prison debt to Mexican groups by enforcing, and finances his own life by stealing thousands of dollars of your stuff and selling it for hundreds.
    He is always sent back via plea deal on the burglary charges, maybe felon in possession of ammunition, a non violent offender. He was recently sentenced to 1.5 years in Wasco and will be out in 7 months. He is an old and loyal friend, but the community will suffer loss of property and loss of safety when he is released and the politicians do not care.
    The DA here is a squish and only a couple of judges here are brave enough to sentence in a way that maximizes prison time.
    Outside the lens of cynicism, I do not understand the left’s obsession with releasing criminals and restoring their right to vote.

    steveg (e8c34d)

  9. our attorney general’s a castrated eunuch and acting attorney general Rod Rosenstein’s a key figure in the ongoing FBI corruption scandal

    I applaud President Trump for his honesty

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  10. I was a juror, once, on a drug possession case. Young dominican man was arrested for possession of nineteen fake bricks, and one real brick, of cocaine. Dude was obviously a courier. He was almost certainly replaced within the criminal organization within days of his arrest (and he didn’t testify, either, which kinda suggests that he was involved in a quid pro quo deal where his family would get taken care of in exchange for his silence).

    Dude got 20 years in prison.

    Because he was replaced within days, NY was no safer for him being off the street — but it will be paying to incarcerate him for decades.

    Not a good deal, I think.

    aphrael (3f0569)

  11. (That experience left me so angry that I now feel ethically compelled to inform attorneys on drug possession cases that I do not believe I can render an unbiased verdict. If they push me on why, I will request a private conference so as not to taint the rest of the jury pool, but I don’t think I can sit on such cases in good conscience).

    aphrael (3f0569)

  12. Trump:

    We have to get much tougher. We have to get much smarter. And we have to get much less politically correct. We’re so politically correct that we’re afraid to do anything. And that’s not only our country, that’s other countries too that are having very similar problems. And we have to get tough, we have to get smart, we have to do what’s right to protect our citizens. We will never waver in the defense of our beloved country — ever. And we’ll never, ever forget the beautiful lives that have been taken from us.

    That was a horrible event, and we have to stop it, and we have to stop it cold. We also have to come up with punishment that’s far quicker and far greater than the punishment these animals are getting right now. They’ll go through court for years. And at the end, they’ll be — who knows what happens.

    We need quick justice and we need strong justice — much quicker and much stronger than we have right now. Because what we have right now is a joke and it’s a laughingstock. And no wonder so much of this stuff takes place. And I think I can speak for plenty of other countries, too, that are in the same situation.

    Sanders:

    He said that process. He said the process has people calling us a joke and calling us a laughingstock. Look, I think, as I told Margaret, he’s simply pointing out his frustration of how long this process takes, how costly this process is. And particularly for someone to be a known terrorist, that process shouldn’t move faster. That’s the point he’s making and that’s the frustration he has.

    Not a problem.

    BuDuh (eab7a4)

  13. I think it’s a problem when the chief executive of a state calls that state’s process a laughingstock. I think it’s way less of a problem when a legislator does the same thing.

    *Because he is President*, Trump’s words *are and should be* held to a higher standard than the words of a legislator. Same is true of a governor. Or of a CEO (vs. members of the board of directors).

    This is leadership 101, in my book.

    aphrael (3f0569)

  14. Another reason our criminal justice system is a laughingstock: Donald Trump promised that he would institute severe forms of torture “a helluva lot worse than waterboarding,” but to date, he has not done so.

    Trump also promised that he would order summary execution of the wives, children, mothers, etc of suspected terrorists. But to date, no such killings appear to have taken place. The Las Vegas shooter’s brother was recently arrested for an unrelated offense, but his girlfriend, mother and other relatives have not yet been murdered by the government.

    Dave (445e97)

  15. Justice system? How about Tax reform

    The Republican Party is DOA.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  16. Trump likes to project. To accuse others of his own shortcomings. Who gets laughed at more? The criminal justice system or the orange-skinned, badgerheaded buffoon?

    nk (dbc370)

  17. Dave invented a blog comment Karaoke machine.

    Pinandpuller (6293b7)

  18. Can someone please infuse Charlie Manson’s guitar strings with polonium?

    Pinandpuller (6293b7)

  19. Laughingstock is always served as the soup du jour at the White House Mess but a Sarah Huckabee-Sanders briefing is most decidedly cruel and unusual punishment.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  20. All of the idiots who demand the police shoot perps in the leg must be ecstatic today.

    Pinandpuller (6293b7)

  21. Yeah but Huckabeast is still good breeding stock for Soupy Sales and White Fang.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  22. ay, yi, yi… Lucyyy!

    crazy (d99a88)

  23. Dave

    Those people were killed. The Sandy Hook Repatory Company is large and in charge.

    Pinandpuller (6293b7)

  24. 22, not to mention “broke brothas” and those who need “papers”

    23, we had 2 chances at that, but noooooo…

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  25. I miss Obama. He was always the smartest liar in the room.

    Pinandpuller (6293b7)

  26. You’re really gonna miss Trump.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  27. “Sarah F-word-abee Sanders”

    Hilarious!

    Tillman (a95660)

  28. As President, Trump has more power to change things than any person in the world. But throwing verbal stones at the court system is much easier than changing things he can actually change.

    DRJ (15874d)

  29. Greetings:

    Me, I’m thinking that Jim Acosta might want to worry about people calling him “a joke and a laughingstock”.

    11B40 (6abb5c)

  30. President Trump is making the Big Changes and I love him for it.

    Putting the US justice system on notice that everyone knows it’s a laughingstock is just professional courtesy.

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  31. At least the courts don’t resort to Twitter because they are bored or need attention.

    DRJ (15874d)

  32. Why are you defending the courts? They’re deeply flawed!

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  33. 29. That’s his shtick DRJ. Repeat what people are criticizing anything about – give them a voice even if the harsh words are born from ignorance and/or racism, it doesn’t matter. That’s his charm and some people love it. They think it’s “truth to power,” when most of the time it’s only exposing, and capitalizing on, our worst traits. This is nothing new from him, just more of the same.

    Tillman (a95660)

  34. https:twitter.com/uscourts?lang=en

    BuDuh (eab7a4)

  35. #10:

    20 bricks of cocaine isn’t a simple or possession case (yes, the fake bricks count. Selling fake drugs is still illegal). It’s a trafficking case. If it got all the way to a jury trial, I’m sure the police and prosecutors spent some time trying to flip the guy first. I imagine he was more worried about a cartel murdering his family than the potential prison time. If he knew he was only going to get a year in jail (with credit for time served), the prosecution wouldn’t have any leverage over him. So if a guy is bringing massive amounts of drugs into the country, what would you prefer the penalty be?

    Edoc118 (44edbb)

  36. The Obama Foundation was established in January 2014 to carry on the great, unfinished project of renewal and global progress. Officially established as an operating, 501(c)(3) nonprofit corporation, the Foundation is governed by a volunteer board of directors chaired by civic leader Martin Nesbitt.

    That didn’t take long. Let’s see how long it takes to amass and launder as much as The Clinton Foundation did (before it suddenly went out of business). The Kenyan has learned a lot Grasshopper. But he didn’t build that, Michelle did. The photo at their web site shows Michelle in a plaid flannel sack-dress, messed up hair and about 30 pounds heavier than last I saw her. But she’s still “elegant” in the eyes of the press I’m sure. Not like that homely Melania.

    Rev.Hoagie® (6bbda7)

  37. Why are you defending the courts? They’re deeply flawed!

    So is Trump. Why are you defending him?

    Chuck Bartowski (bc1c71)

  38. Because he’s a good pickle Mr. Bartowski.

    Mr. Gelertner is eloquent!

    I remain absolutely a supporter and a sympathizer of Trump. And you know, no president checks every box. I think his virtues far outweigh his faults. I do wish he would take the office and the history of the office more seriously than he does…

    Just the fact of getting elected was an extraordinary accomplishment. I mean, you could say it was the most culturally democratic moment in the history of the world. Never before has a great power spurned everything the elite — the intellectual and the social elite — knows, left and right, about who should be running the country. Never before has a great power said to hell with that. The dignity of the country is important and has a lot to do with the power of the country, but this is an emergency and we’re going to make use of the best candidate who’s out there. And the implications are enormous. The left believes that, since it refuses to report on the right, the right doesn’t really exist, that it’s just a bunch of uncollected morons with no serious thought.

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  39. *Gelernter* i mean

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  40. The only reason Trump won is because Hillary sucked Beamtenstippe. But keep on polishing that pig’s ear.

    nk (dbc370)

  41. i will!

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  42. Edoc118,

    the way the charges were explained to us, the fake bricks *did not count*. He was charged with simple possession of one kilogram of cocaine. We only know about the other bricks because it was impossible to tell the story of his arrest without mentioning them.

    It’s pretty clear from the testimony that he wasn’t importing them; he was making a delivery on someone’s behalf. Removing him from the equation didn’t help — he was replaced the next day. So how is NY state better off for paying for him to be in jail for twenty years?

    aphrael (3f0569)

  43. The only reason Obama won is because he’s black. There’s always a reason somebody wins. Trump is a douche on his own but he’s not a leftist like Sanders or Hillary!. That’s all we wanted, to stop the ever increasing move leftward. Please help us instead of bitching.

    Rev.Hoagie® (6bbda7)

  44. The good news is if you like your lawyer you can keep him.

    Pinandpuller (cdd685)

  45. So how is NY state better off for paying for him to be in jail for twenty years?

    So what do you suggest aphrael, a hearty handshake and a wave good-bye?

    Rev.Hoagie® (6bbda7)

  46. > The only reason Obama won is because he’s black.

    That’s really not true. That’s one of the things that contributed, but (a) a fair amount of the center was absolutely horrified by Palin, and (b) McCain’s behavior when he suspended his campaign and restarted it seriously undermined people’s faith in his judgment. I know people who were inclined to vote for him who changed their mind because of these two factors.

    Furthermore, in 2008, I think *any* Democratic presidential candidate would have won, because of the economic crisis — these things blow back on whoever is in power.

    aphrael (3f0569)

  47. John McCain is erratic and untrustworthy

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  48. Hoagie: I would have been content with a five year sentence, combined with some in-prison program aimed at helping him develop marketable skills so that his post-prison economic future had enough opportunity to provide him some path *other* than returning to a life of crime.

    aphrael (3f0569)

  49. So how is NY state better off for paying for him to be in jail for twenty years?

    The prisoner industry supports a lot of people. Very little is spent on the prisoners themselves. Only the most basic of necessities and sometimes not even that. The money goes to the guards and other staff, and to the provisioners and contractors.

    nk (dbc370)

  50. Off Topic: Judge tells lawyers of Manafort and Gates to politely shut up:

    US District Court Judge Amy Berman Jackson placed a gag order on attorneys in the case involving ex-Trump campaign officials Paul Manafort and Rick Gates due to all the media attention it’s getting.

    She said media attention surrounding the case was “fueled by extrajudicial statements of counsel.”

    “This is a criminal trial. It is not a public relations campaign,” the judge said .

    Now that’s an honerable judge! I hope she’s as white as snow so Captain Chaos can’t go racist on her.

    Tillman (a95660)

  51. @50 Broken window fallacy

    Davethulhu (fab944)

  52. No Republican was going to win in 2008. No way! If there had been even a slender chance, neither McCain nor Palin would have been the candidates. There would have been a real primary with qualified people vying for the nomination.

    nk (dbc370)

  53. I’m sorry but for Trump’s words as president to affect whether a lawful punishment could be carried out (or as in the Bergdahl case what sentence may result) pretty much demonstrates the point that our legal system is in fact a laughingstock. He is chief executive not Grand Poobah over the entire federal government.

    As president he should have the power to instruct that any offense that could result in execution be prosecuted as such, just as some other president could instruct that no such cases be brought or any point in between those extremes. As I see it, federal [prosecutors work for the people at the behest of the president, they have no independent duty of judgement that the president does not grant and if an individual prosecutor disagrees with the president’s will they can always resign.

    Soronel Haetir (86a46e)

  54. I know people who were inclined to vote for him who changed their mind because of these two factors.

    That really IS true. I know a lot of anecdotal stories too, like folks I know who voted for Obama ONLY because he is black, notwithstanding the entire black population of America who don’t know sh!t about politics so why do you think they voted for him? No history, no resume, no back ground, no notice at all but BOOM! he’s president. A nobody.

    So why did NY state sentence the guy to 20 instead of 5? Don’t lawyers make the laws? Oh, that’s right my bad.

    Rev.Hoagie® (6bbda7)

  55. I did feel bad for the kid Bill Clinton rushed back to AR to execute during the 1992 campaign . He saved his last meal desert for later.

    Pinandpuller (cdd685)

  56. Another reason the criminal justice system is a laughing stock:

    Donald Trump promised to institute the death penalty by executive order for anyone killing a police officer:

    “One of the first things I’d do in terms of executive order, if I win, will be to sign a strong, strong statement that would go out to the country, out to the world, that anybody killing a police man, a police woman, a police officer, anybody killing a police officer, the death penalty is going to happen.”
    – Donald Trump, December 2015

    Despite Trump’s solemn promise, made before a police organization, no such executive order has been issued.

    Dave (445e97)

  57. > So why did NY state sentence the guy to 20 instead of 5? Don’t lawyers make the laws?

    Because a politician in the 1970s ran on a tough on crime platform and got the legislature to adopt really draconian laws that haven’t really been softened in the meantime.

    I wouldn’t have been able to vote against him for at least two different reasons, and I no longer am a citizen of the state of New York so can’t vote to change this, but if I’d had the option while I was a citizen of that state, I would have.

    aphrael (3f0569)

  58. Hoagie

    Get laid or something..

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  59. 44 and 53, what irks me more is that the young black voters (the opposite of the middle age and elderly blacks who line up on the first day of early voting) appeared out of nowhere on Election Day of 2012 to basically say “yeah he aint all that, but we’re gonna keep him in”. I think this possum-playing was a concerted semi-national (e.g. subrosa like black twitter but in code) effort and it made fools of pollsters who had been predicting a landslide Romney victory down to a close Romney loss post Crowley debate into an absolute beating.

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  60. No Republican was going to win in 2008.

    Or in 2020. The New Whigs have flipped their wigs for tax reform

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  61. I don’t think that’s known yet, Ben burn. I think it’s entirely possible that the Democrats could lose as big in 2020 as they did in 2016 — likely, even, if we don’t understand why we lost in 2016, and there’s no real sign that we do.

    aphrael (3f0569)

  62. Brownback’s catastrophic imbibing of straight supply-side Sterno crippled his state, and the Center for American Progress immediately pointed out the similarities between what Brownback did in his state and what the Republican plan proposes to do to the country. Otherwise, the Republican plan is pretty much the same thing as David Stockman long ago said the first Reagan budget was: a Trojan horse to cut taxes on corporations and the wealthiest among us. From The Washington Post:

    The Tax Cuts and Jobs Act would lower the corporate tax rate from 35 percent to 20 percent and collapse the seven tax brackets paid by families and individuals down to four. It would create giant new benefits for the wealthy by cutting business taxes, eliminating the estate tax, and ending the alternative minimum tax. The Tax Cuts and Jobs Act would lower the corporate tax rate from 35 percent to 20 percent and collapse the seven tax brackets paid by families and individuals down to four. It would create giant new benefits for the wealthy by cutting business taxes, eliminating the estate tax, and ending the alternative minimum tax.
    http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/a13143156/republican-tax-plan/

    Wait until this shore hits the fan aphrael

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  63. Sh’t hits the fan

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  64. As I see it, federal [prosecutors work for the people at the behest of the president, they have no independent duty of judgement that the president does not grant and if an individual prosecutor disagrees with the president’s will they can always resign.

    As you see it is not how the Constitution sees it. Federal prosecutors, and all the federal courts except the Supreme Court, are creations of Congress, and the duties of the prosecutors and judges and the proceedings of the courts are in accordance with statutes passed by Congress.

    nk (dbc370)

  65. Not the demented whims of the Twitterer in Chief.

    nk (dbc370)

  66. I did feel bad for the kid Bill Clinton rushed back to AR to execute during the 1992 campaign

    He wasn’t exactly a kid, he was 41 years old. But simple-minded

    Chuck Bartowski (bc1c71)

  67. I think his virtues far outweigh his faults. I do wish he would take

    Trump has virtues?

    kishnevi (413847)

  68. To Ben:
    Re your comment @59
    Only a truly sick-minded person would say that. Even Trump doesn’t sink to that level.

    kishnevi (413847)

  69. urbanleftbehind @ 60

    Another factor: since young blacks are less likely to vote, the polls didn’t correctly judge how many of them would vote.

    kishnevi (413847)

  70. Well, my grandson stopped by my son’s house this morning I was just informed. He withdrew over 9 grand from his bank account, got two duffle bags of clothes and an old laptop and after a nice argument during which he called my daughter in law a “half breed” and my son a “white mans nigger” left to join a “civil rights group” in Washington, DC. He says there is a rally this weekend and will not return to the family until whites are made to pay for slavery. I thought we already did but whatever, I’m too old and too sad to argue any more. He broke my sons heart. I haven’t heard my son cry since he was ten years old. I knew this kid was being programmed. I really don’t know what to do.

    Rev.Hoagie® (6bbda7)

  71. Well, you could say, a joke could be your opinion, but a laughingstock only refers to other people’s opinions. In particular, he said, that was the opinion of the terrorists, i.e., ” so much of this stuff takes place.”

    It’s not clear exactly what, according to him, conveys that impression. Maybe that they aren’t hanged in a few weeks or less like Judge Lynch used to do in Oklahoma. (why that should deter terrorists who anticipate being killed on the spot is not explained.)

    The truth is he doesn’t make any sense.

    If he meant go after the terrorist leaders, we’ve been executing them without trial since Bush 43. Trump isn’t saying that. Trump isn’t saying anything that makes any sense.

    Sammy Finkelman (20d02d)

  72. Mr. Reverend you have to believe he’ll come to understand how much pain he’s causing and he will know shame and he will know contrition

    The rally this weekend though

    That’s antifa, no?

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  73. lol

    if a sleazy failmerican court says oh my goodness no death penalty for you, little terrorist

    who slaughtered 8 people

    (cause of what President Trump said!)

    they just confirm President Trump’s assertion that they’re a laughingstock

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  74. HUGE popo presence at Trump tower right now in chicago

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  75. You’re right kishnevi.

    I am sorry Hoagie.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  76. Sanders is a tool. Of all the hills to choose to die on, she chooses one the administration had, in a political sense, already won. Even McConnell took a stand by forcing judicial nominations through the Senate last week.

    Our justice system is the best in the world, so “laughingstock” is patently incorrect. Absurd? You betcha.

    Ed from SFV (3400a5)

  77. What was the purpose of the fake bricks? To cheat the retailer?

    Sammy Finkelman (20d02d)

  78. 67. He had tried to commit suicide, but as a result suffered brain injury.

    Sammy Finkelman (20d02d)

  79. It took 32 years to execute some random punk, more to the point, holder reversed the plea bargains, on the top 5 gitmo detainees so the families of the slain could be put through all this anguish again

    narciso (6341a4)

  80. Now domestic terrorists have been sent to gitmo, he is who turned up in JAmes Mitchell’s interrogation of Ksm, so he was given a,plea to testify against him, I don’t Asaipov is worthy of such treatment.

    narciso (6341a4)

  81. Narco:

    You seem agitated. Trouble stirring?

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  82. This is perhaps the worst aspect of Trumpism, the willingness to utter a bald-faced lie in the presence of hard evidence to the contrary. During the campaign Trump was repeatedly shown a tape of him saying “X” just a day earlier, and then he denied ever saying it. Not “What I meant was…” or “That was taken out of context, and…” but rather

    Trump> “Nope. I didn’t say it and anyone who says I did is a liar!”

    Reporter> “But…but…we just saw…”

    Trump> “Liar! Liar, Liar, Liar!”

    Kevin M (752a26)

  83. The Republican Party is DOA.

    Trump’s election was notice that both parties are on the ropes. He beat the best the GOP could offer,m then he beat the last old farts standing in the old Democrat Party.

    Note that the Democrat Party is now the Socialist Freaks Party and the GOP is being bent to Trump’s will. I hope for robust primaries in 2020 in both parties.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  84. Have you seen the tax from your had?

    Somebody’s gonna havta pay and it ain’t gonna be democrats, kevin.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  85. Tax from your hacks–

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  86. This us one fetus you’ll wish you’d aborted.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  87. He followed that up with Twitter comments calling for the death penalty for the terrorist, which is stupid and will create issues for the prosecution, but gets him a quick chance to Look Tough on Twitter — and which is more important, after all?

    Janet Reno said much the same thing, then denied it in much the same way, regarding McVeigh.

    Ms. Reno first suggested she would seek the death penalty in the case on April 19, the day of the bombing. “The death penalty is available, and we will seek it,” she said. A day later, she said of the then-unknown perpetrators, “We will find them, we will convict them and we will seek the death penalty against them.” Later, Ms. Reno’s aides said she meant only that the bombing was the kind of case in which prosecutors might seek the sanction of death.

    http://www.nytimes.com/1995/07/25/us/lawyers-want-reno-barred-from-death-penalty-decision-in-bombing.html

    Kevin M (752a26)

  88. My bad for not running the filter and treating Ben as if he were rational.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  89. “White House Spokehole Sarah F-word-abee Sanders, “

    Siriusly?

    harkin (b32ce9)

  90. Kevin M – the worst aspect of it is the not caring about the bald-faced lie, and the increasing tendency to believe that anyone who says something you disagree with must be lying.

    That was going on before, but it’s accelerated since the election, and it’s really tearing at the ability of the Republic to function.

    aphrael (3f0569)

  91. Rev.Hoagie® (6bbda7) — 11/2/2017 @ 2:17 pm

    I, too, have suffered similar calamity, and am saddened to hear of of your pain and your son’s pain. You have prodigal grandson. Do not give in to despair. Please be assured of my prayers and spiritual closeness to you and your family.

    felipe (023cc9)

  92. So how is NY state better off for paying for him to be in jail for twenty years?

    The fact that there will be a next criminal does not mean you want to stop this criminal. It used to be that, yes, folks did not want to deal with the costs of incarceration so they simply hanged all felons. It solves the cost problem AND the recidivism problem. What harm does selling 20 kilos of {heroin, cocaine, meth, fentanyl} do? People die, and not always the people taking the drugs.

    Would you say, “oh, if we lock up this rapist, there will just be another rapist; what’s the point?” ?

    Kevin M (752a26)

  93. This is perhaps the worst aspect of Trumpism, the willingness to utter a bald-faced lie in the presence of hard evidence to the contrary.”

    ___
    If you like your plan, you can keep it”

    And refrain from arguing ‘hard evidence’ was not then available. His own people admitted they had to lie to get it passed.

    “It was about a video”

    The targeting of conservative groups by the IRS was a problem isolated to one office”

    Etc. etc. etc.

    It cracks me up that after eight years of Obama people think the office of the President has somehow taken a step down.

    harkin (b32ce9)

  94. *The fact that there will be a next criminal does not mean you DON’T want to stop this criminal

    Kevin M (752a26)

  95. harkin,

    But Obama never denied saying “If you like your plan, you can keep it” right after the tape was played.

    Kevin M (752a26)


  96. My bad for not running the filter and treating Ben as if he were rational.

    Couldn’t handle a response?

    It’s very contagious hereabouts.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  97. I am so sorry, Hoagie. I haven’t faced the same thing you are, but I would do anything to help my sick child and stop his pain. I imagine you feel the same way about your son’s pain. It may seem like a small consolation but good can come from this. Hang in there.

    DRJ (15874d)

  98. That is rough, Hoagie. Hopefully some day – soon, it is hoped – your grandson will come to his senses and realize the people he has fallen in with are using him and others like him.

    Colonel Haiku (61b436)

  99. “If you like your plan, you can keep it”

    I am not defending Obamacare, which was (and is) a disaster, but this statement was substantially true. There was nothing in the legislation requiring people who had a typical group insurance plan to change it, and the majority did keep their existing plans (and doctors). In my opinion, his mistake was not adding some kind of “terms and conditions apply” disclaimer that the insurance companies themselves could decide to alter or withdraw certain plans for business reasons.

    This is a far cry from brazenly insisting that something recorded on videotape the day before never happened, or insisting that something completely made-up did happen, as the Dotard-in-Chief loves to do.

    Dave (445e97)

  100. Mao fan Boi, Dave sticks up for Obama’s cretinous lie, shocker

    narciso (d1f714)

  101. OBAMACARE was disastrous for inert Republicans resting on their failure to address healthcare until they had to…like now.

    One thing is for sure, healthcare will finally get the attention it deserved all along.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  102. Dave puts the “con” in conservative…

    Colonel Haiku (61b436)

  103. Cochrane and cookie remind me of this cognate:

    narciso (d1f714)

  104. It really is striking what the rizzotto press leaves out

    https://mobile.twitter.com/alimhaider/status/926237695130656768?p=v

    narciso (d1f714)

  105. Dave puts the “con” in conservative…

    Thanks for the ad hominem which refutes nothing I said.

    Conservatism requires honesty. Being opposed to Obamacare does not change the fact that Obama’s “keep your plan” statement was substantially true. Most people did keep their existing plans.

    It’s the same kind of over-generalization as “… family of four making $X a year will save $Y…” in relation to tax legislation. Even if it is a fair estimate of the typical case, there will be exceptions.

    Dave (445e97)

  106. 55. Rev.Hoagie® (6bbda7) — 11/2/2017 @ 1:34 pm

    So why did NY state sentence the guy to 20 instead of 5?

    Nelson Rockefeller.

    In the year 1970, 1973 he had the New York State legislature pass laws severely increasing the penalties for drug dealing. I don’t know exactly how he did it – maybe he negotiated it with the other two men in the room.

    http://content.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1888864,00.html

    But by 1973, calls for stricter penalties had grown too loud to ignore, prompting Albany to enact legislation that created mandatory minimum sentences of 15 years to life for possession of four ounces of narcotics — about the same as a sentence for second-degree murder. The statutes became known as the Rockefeller Drug Laws — a milestone in America’s war on drugs and the subject of one of the most abrasive legal tug-of-wars in the nation. The laws almost immediately led to an increase in drug convictions, but no measurable decrease in overall crime.

    http://www.npr.org/2013/02/14/171822608/the-drug-laws-that-changed-how-we-punish

    Rockefeller, New York’s Republican governor, had backed drug rehabilitation, job training and housing. He saw drugs as a social problem, not a criminal one.

    But the political mood was hardening…Late in 1972, one of Rockefeller’s closest aides, Joseph Persico, was in a meeting with the governor. He says Rockefeller suddenly did a dramatic about-face.

    “Finally he turned and said, ‘For drug pushing, life sentence, no parole, no probation,” says Persico.

    That was the moment when one of the seeds of the modern prison system was planted.

    Persico says Rockefeller decided that more progressive approaches to drug addiction had simply failed. The governor had heard about this new, zero-tolerance approach to crime while studying Japan’s war on drugs…

    …Rockefeller launched his campaign to toughen New York’s laws at a press conference in January 1973 — almost exactly 40 years ago. He called for something unheard of: mandatory prison sentences of 15 years to life for drug dealers and addicts — even those caught with small amounts of marijuana, cocaine or heroin.

    “I have one goal and one objective, and that is to stop the pushing of drugs and to protect the innocent victim,” Rockefeller said.

    They repealed, or altered the laws, in 2009:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/26/nyregion/26rockefeller.html

    aphrael’s case was probably before that.

    Then there’s the whole issue of what to do with people sentenced under the old laws. Prosecutors argue that sometimes people guilty of much more serious crimes were prosecuted under the druglaws because conviction was easier.

    Sammy Finkelman (20d02d)

  107. Sarah Huckabee Sanders is incompetent. She is not careful. She is not articulate. She is pugnacious, but cluelessly so. I watched her yesterday or the day before field a question about comments Trump had made about media criticism of him, in which the reporter asked her if Trump was planning to bring back the Fairness Doctrine. She looked like a drugged deer caught in the headlights, mumbling that she’s sure that Trump wants to be fair and is committed to fairness.

    Hanlon’s Razor says this misstatement is adequately explained by stupidity and therefore ought not be attributed to malice.

    Re Trump’s comments about the death penalty:

    If he had the slightest clue about the administration of criminal justice, he would know that in his home state, New York, despite the desires of the voters, there is no death penalty, and hasn’t been since 2004. He’s further ought to know that federal law in certain types of terrorism cases does indeed permit a death penalty — Timothy McVeigh having deservedly met that fate at federal hands.

    Therefore, the only place that this guy could be tried for capital murder would be in federal court, about which the POTUS damned sure ought not be talking about individual defendants’ relative guilt or innocence.

    Trumpkins*, this is an example of how your guy’s literal idiocy means that all his promises are meaningless. You can’t be a law and order POTUS while you’re making impossible the successful prosecution of our worst criminals.

    He can’t keep his mouth shut, and sometimes that’s a job requirement for the top job in the country.

    —–

    *(By “Trumpkin” I mean those who supported and voted for Trump in the GOP primary, and/or who’ve come to love and uncritically support him since, but I do not include those who merely held their noses while voting for Trump as an arguably less-worse alternative to Hillary Clinton.)

    Beldar (fa637a)

  108. I guess now we have to go back to Japan in the 1960s and earlier and see what the story is there. It might be drug dealing was strangled in its cradle.

    Sammy Finkelman (20d02d)

  109. Whether Trump said our system was a laughingstock or he approvingly quoted someone else making that statement is trivia. Yes, Sanders was wrong, but I cannot get excited about this. I am disgusted with the media. Rather than cover the important events during the Sanders press conferences, they focus on gotcha questions.

    P.S. – I would like to see terrorists who kill large numbers of people get the death penalty, and promptly. What’s wrong with Trump saying what many of us believe?

    David in Cal (2b55d5)

  110. 109. Sarah Huckabee Sanders s too young to remember the Fairness Doctrine, even if it was still mentioned in newspapers occasionally when her father was running for Governor.

    I don’t think Trump’s comments as to the death penalty matter other than they might be taken as guidance to the prosecutors, whom he has a legal right to guide, even if it isn’t done in public; or it might be taken as a sort of statement by the prosecution.

    Supposedly this statement could prejudice the jury. Really? In New York?

    Sammy Finkelman (20d02d)

  111. 111. Trump didn’t quote anyone saying the criminal justice system is a laughingstock. This is Trump inventing how other people – in this case, the leaders of ISIS and al Qaeda etc .- view things. He;’s including the European systems of justice also as something they are laughing at.

    Trump is also wont to claim that the leaders of foreign countries laugh at our trade policy or maybe it’s our trade negotiators.

    Sammy Finkelman (20d02d)

  112. Its a relic like an eight track tape. So it appears that manafort was operating in coppetation with us officials in the Ukraine in the interval mentioned.

    narciso (d1f714)

  113. In a way, Donald Trump is following the same political playbook that New York State politicians did when they got “tough on crime: Tougher penalties on the statute books as the solution.

    He’s been for tough penalties since about his first foray into public issues.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Park_jogger_case

    On May 1, 1989, real estate magnate Donald Trump called for the return of the death penalty when he took out full-page advertisements in all four of the city’s major newspapers. Trump said he wanted the ”criminals of every age” who were accused of beating and raping a jogger in Central Park 12 days earlier ”to be afraid.”[80] The advertisement, which cost an estimated $85,000,[80] said, in part, “Mayor Koch has stated that hate and rancor should be removed from our hearts. I do not think so. I want to hate these muggers and murderers. They should be forced to suffer … Yes, Mayor Koch, I want to hate these murderers and I always will. … How can our great society tolerate the continued brutalization of its citizens by crazed misfits? Criminals must be told that their CIVIL LIBERTIES END WHEN AN ATTACK ON OUR SAFETY BEGINS!” [81] In a 1989 interview with CNN, Trump said to Larry King: “The problem with our society is the victim has absolutely no rights and the criminal has unbelievable rights” and that “maybe hate is what we need if we’re gonna get something done.”[82]

    Lawyers for the five defendants said that Trump’s advertisement had inflamed public opinion. After Reyes confessed to the crime and said he acted alone, one of the defendants’ lawyers, Michael W. Warren, said, “I think Donald Trump at the very least owes a real apology to this community and to the young men and their families.”

    Sammy Finkelman (20d02d)

  114. narciso @114. What are you referring to? Is it something in another thread?

    Sammy Finkelman (20d02d)

  115. Edward j epstein, whose career began dissecting the sloppiness of the warren commission. (That story went down a rabbit hole) followed up with agency of fear, his polemic against drug prohibition, one of his bete noires was nelson Rockefeller, he notes his great grandfather, sold patent medicines.

    narciso (d1f714)

  116. “What was the purpose of the fake bricks? To cheat the retailer?”

    Oh, Sammy, you innocent. aphrael, too. This was the NYPD. Twenty real cocaine bricks were seized. Only one real one and nineteen fake ones made it to court. The other nineteen real ones probably never even made it to the evidence room.

    nk (9651fb)

  117. @ David in Cal, who asked (#111):

    I would like to see terrorists who kill large numbers of people get the death penalty, and promptly. What’s wrong with Trump saying what many of us believe?

    Nothing at all, as long as it’s in the context of general policy and legislation. Being pro-capital punishment, being in favor of shortening the long delays in that process — these are entirely legitimate political subjects for politicians to debate and run upon for office.

    The problem occurs when a sitting POTUS begins talking about a specific instance with a specific defendant. By constitutional definition, he sits atop the Executive Branch pyramid that includes the Attorney General, the Department of Justice, and its prosecutors; he is their ultimate boss and therefore the comments he makes are attributable to the government and its prosecutors.

    In general, prosecutors are barred from attempting to fan up public sentiment in the press before a trial. For example, the ABA’s Criminal Justice Standards (which have analogs in every state’s and the federal judicial systems) provides:

    Standard 3-1.4 Public Statements

    (a) A prosecutor should not make or authorize the making of an extrajudicial statement that a reasonable person would expect to be disseminated by means of public communication if the prosecutor knows or reasonably should know that it will have a substantial likelihood of prejudicing a criminal proceeding.

    (b) A prosecutor should exercise reasonable care to prevent investigators, law enforcement personnel, employees, or other persons assisting or associated with the prosecutor from making an extrajudicial statement that the prosecutor would be prohibited from making under this Standard.

    If prosecutors violate these standards through their pretrial public statements, that can result in charges being dismissed on grounds that the defendant has been deprived of his opportunity for a fair trial before an unbiased jury. And when the prosecutors’ ultimate boss — the POTUS — speaks about an individual defendant’s likely guilt or innocence, or the punishment that he ought to receive, it’s harder to imagine a greater likelihood of improper public bias.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  118. Basically the due process argument is: “I can never get a fair trial anywhere in the United States because the POTUS has already instructed every potential juror that they ought to convict me and have me executed based on his (the POTUS’) opinions.”

    Trump’s tweets are a potential get-out-of-jail-free card.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  119. I would like to see terrorists who kill large numbers of people get the death penalty, and promptly. What’s wrong with Trump saying what many of us believe?

    The problem is not really what Trump said: half of it was a rational criticism, the other half sheer stupidity. It took almost exactly two years to get to a guilty verdict for the Boston Marathon bomber, and a further month to officially sentence to death, and it is now (I presume, not having gone looking for that info) being appealled. Could the process be quicker? It’s rational to say it should be. But what exactly could be a stronger punishment? He was sentenced to death. Does Trump want him pulled apart by horses, like they did to French regicides circa 1600, or burn them at the stake like England (officially, at least) did to women who counterfeited money or killed their husband or employer (defined then as forms of treason) into the 18th century?

    But that’s not the problem. The problem is a WH press office that claims Trump did not say what he said: and did so when they could have easily said “he was talking off the cuff and he really meant….”–like any normal person would do.

    kishnevi (ceb37f)

  120. You know how often our host has spoken here about one of his pending cases?

    Exactly never.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  121. 96. Kevin M (752a26) — 11/2/2017 @ 4:39 pm

    But Obama never denied saying “If you like your plan, you can keep it” right after the tape was played.

    Obama said he thought it was true for most people.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/transcript-president-obamas-nov-14-statement-on-health-care/2013/11/14/6233e352-4d48-11e3-ac54-aa84301ced81_story.html

    Keep in mind that the individual market accounts for 5 percent of the population. So when I said you can keep your health care, you know, I’m looking at folks who’ve got employer-based health care. I’m looking at folks who’ve got Medicare and Medicaid. And that accounts for the vast majority of Americans. And then for people who don’t have any health insurance at all, obviously that didn’t apply. My commitment to them was you were going to be able to get affordable health care for the first time.

    You have an individual market that accounts for about 5 percent of the population. And our working assumption was — my working assumption was that the majority of those folks would find better policies at lower cost or the same cost in the marketplaces and that there — the universe of folks who potentially would not find a better deal in the marketplaces, the grandfather clause would work sufficiently for them. And it didn’t. And again, that’s on us, which is why we’re — that’s on me.

    So what he was saying was that only 5% of the people were affected by Obamacare, and the majority of them would find the new policy better. So say 60% That means only 2% of the people would not, and they’d be able to keep their plan because of the grandfather clause.

    Except that the insurance companies stopped offering those policies.

    Sammy Finkelman (20d02d)

  122. “…Because what we have right now is a joke and it’s a laughingstock.” -President Trump.

    Oh Captain, sir- a quart of strawberries is missing…

    “…An empty barrel makes the most noise…” – Chief of Staff John F. Kelly

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  123. I disagree with you, Beldar, in this case (not the general principle). By the time this goes to trial, Trump’s statement will have been submerged in the flood of Trumpisms. More pertinent to fair trial claims will be the wash of punditry such as was on CNN and MSNBC assuring us a terrorism conviction was a slam dunk sure thing for the prosecution.

    kishnevi (ceb37f)

  124. 118. nk (9651fb) — 11/2/2017 @ 6:17 pm

    Oh, Sammy, you innocent. aphrael, too. This was the NYPD. Twenty real cocaine bricks were seized. Only one real one and nineteen fake ones made it to court. The other nineteen real ones probably never even made it to the evidence room.

    That is possible – but it would be avery serious crime. And it could have happened anywhere in the chain of custody, not necessarily with the first policemen who seized he bricks. Could be with the people in the evidence room, who’d be the only ones who cold plan for it.

    And the DA’s office could have hidden the problem. But wasn’t this the Manhattan DA’s office?
    Or was this a federal case?

    If some policemen stole the cocaine, you would think the defense attorney could have taken some advantage of that fact in some way.

    Sammy Finkelman (20d02d)

  125. 119. Trump was advocating some kind of change in the law, and to the extent he wasn’t, he wasn’t saying anything that a prosecutor might not reasonably be expected to say in open court at some point.

    The thing about the defendant asking for the ISIS flag or flags – there were two – he left in the truck to be brought to his hospital room so he could hang them up, was actually in a document filed
    with the court.

    Reportedly he originally planned to fly them on the truck during the crime, but then decidd that taht would make him too conspicuous.

    Sammy Finkelman (20d02d)

  126. Here’s where Obama said it was true for 98% of the people (from the same press conference four years ago)

    PRESIDENT OBAMA: No. I think, as I said earlier, Major, my expectation was that for 98 percent of the American people, either it genuinely wouldn’t change at all, or they’d be pleasantly surprised with the options in the marketplace and that the grandfather clause would cover the rest. That proved not to be the case. And that’s on me.

    And the American people — those who got cancelation notices do deserve and have received an apology from me, but they don’t want just words. What they want is whether we can make sure that they’re in a better place and that we meet that commitment.

    And by the way, I think it’s very important for me to note that, you know, there are a whole bunch of folks up in Congress and others who made this statement, and they were entirely sincere about it. And the fact that you’ve got this percentage of people who’ve had this, you know, impact — I want them to know that, you know, their senator or congressman, they were making representations based on what I told them and what this White House and our administrative staff told them, and so it’s not on them, it’s on us. But it is something that we intend to fix.

    Sammy Finkelman (20d02d)

  127. @ kish (#125): I don’t agree that there is a flood of Trumpisms, and I also agree that there will also be a lot of general publicity that the defense could cite in arguing that he can’t get a fair trial. But quantity isn’t the point, and Trumpisms on other topics aren’t going to be discussed in the motion to dismiss based on these particular Trumpisms.

    When the POTUS pronounces on guilt and punishment for a particular individual, that individual’s constitutional presumption of innocence is pretty hollow. Our system has flaws that need to be addressed, but it isn’t a laughingstock in general. This prosecution, though, may become exactly that because of Trump’s intemperance and, as Patterico correctly argues, his insistence on making everything all about him, Donald Trump, all the time.

    Other presidents have known better for the most part. Recall that Obama took heat early in his first term for injudicious comments leading up to the “beer summit,” when he made pronouncements about Gates’ innocence in an on-going state prosecution. He took justifiable heat for that — which showed, among other things, how little the distinguished Senior Lecturer in Constitutional Law from the University of Chicago knew or cared about constitutional law and due process — and he at least learned from that mistake.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  128. ACK. Major editing error. Sorry, kish. In #130, I meant to write “I do [not don’t] agree that there is a flood of Trumpisms ….” Sorry for the confusion.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  129. Q The other thing I wanted to ask was that a few weeks ago, when the President sent out Twitters about the media, he suggested that equal time be applied. Now, to many people, that was a euphemism for the Fairness Doctrine, something that President Ronald Reagan helped eliminate and which Democrats, such as Leader Pelosi, have tried to revive. Is he seriously in favor of reviving the Fairness Doctrine? And I might add that its premier opponent of revival was a young congressman named Mike Pence.

    MS. SANDERS: I don’t know that he’s into the deep weeds of the Fairness Doctrine, but I know he certainly believes in fairness. And I think that he would like to see that applied, certainly, to his administration in a way that it probably hasn’t been so far.

    Easy.

    BuDuh (fc15db)

  130. When dis he stop Beldar, when he said trayvon was like his son, when he poured gasoline in ferguson.5

    narciso (d1f714)

  131. I am not defending Obamacare, which was (and is) a disaster, but this statement was substantially true.

    Dave, did you experience Obamacare personally in your life?

    Kevin M (752a26)

  132. Sammy Finkelman (20d02d) — 11/2/2017 @ 6:24 pm
    Except that the insurance companies stopped offering those policies.

    Yes, and IIRC, many if not most of the then-existing policies failed to meet the mandatory coverage laundry-list of the ACA, and so could no longer be offered by the insurance cos. Nor could they be revised into compliance, because if there were any changes to an existing policy it no longer qualified for grandfathering. …call it “Catch-ACA”.

    ColoComment (13c772)

  133. Conservatism requires honesty. Being opposed to Obamacare does not change the fact that Obama’s “keep your plan” statement was substantially true. Most people did keep their existing plans.

    Point me to the data that backs up your assertion, because my experience was very different than you describe. (Also, note that grandfathered plans were not eligible for tax credits. I guess that’s an asterisk to some.)

    Kevin M (752a26)

  134. If prosecutors violate these standards through their pretrial public statements, that can result in charges being dismissed on grounds that the defendant has been deprived of his opportunity for a fair trial before an unbiased jury.

    A situation that happened after Janet Reno said that the KC bomber was going to get the death penalty. She tried to walk that back, but it still came up at the trial (not that anything was going to pre3vent McVeigh getting what he got).

    Kevin M (752a26)

  135. Except that the insurance companies stopped offering those policies.

    Often because of an Obamacare provision allowing states to mandate certain coverage, and CA, for one, took that liberally. And, as I pointed out, no tax credits for the grandfathered plan, or any other off-exchange plan.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  136. Didn’t the last two years teach people the danger of overreacting to every atatement

    https://amgreatness.com/2017/11/02/trump-has-broken-the-apology-hypnosis-on-race/6

    Yes think of them as a signing statement, expressing an opinion nit a firm policy.

    narciso (d1f714)

  137. The thing that killed nearly all grandfathered plans was the mandatory inclusion of maternity coverage. Prior to that point it was an option, which the insurance companies rightly took to mean “we intend to have a pregnancy this year” and priced accordingly.

    No one outside of childbearing years had such a rider on their plan. But Obamacare required it, even for 60-year-olds, so nearly every existing plan was now illegal.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  138. Sorry about that, I mean this post:
    therightscoop.com/boom-nikki-haley-slams-cuban-regime-then-profoundly-apologizes-for-obamas-casual-cruelty

    narciso (d1f714)

  139. Dave, did you experience Obamacare personally in your life?

    I get my insurance through my employer (one of the largest in the state of California) and I experienced it making zero difference. If the size of my payroll contribution changed at all, it was not enough for me to notice it.

    I have no reason to think my experience was exceptional among similarly-situated people, which is to say, the majority of the full-time work force covered by group plans.

    You have explained that you had very negative experiences as a self-employed/-insured person, and I understand that.

    Dave (445e97)

  140. A rare flash of honesty from President Snowflake:


    Trump: “I’m the only one that matters.”

    Dave (445e97)

  141. He wasn’t exactly a kid, he was 41 years old. But simple-minded
    Chuck Bartowski (bc1c71) — 11/2/2017 @ 2:09 pm

    True. But Michael Skakel was arraigned in juvenile court and there had to be a ruling to try him as an adult, even though he was an adult when he was finally arrested. It’s almost like the system is a laughingstock.

    Pinandpuller (39e7a0)

  142. This is perhaps the worst aspect of Trumpism, the willingness to utter a bald-faced lie in the presence of hard evidence to the contrary. During the campaign Trump was repeatedly shown a tape of him saying “X” just a day earlier, and then he denied ever saying it. Not “What I meant was…” or “That was taken out of context, and…” but rather

    Trump> “Nope. I didn’t say it and anyone who says I did is a liar!”

    Reporter> “But…but…we just saw…”

    Trump> “Liar! Liar, Liar, Liar!”
    Kevin M (752a26) — 11/2/2017 @ 4:02 pm

    Trump’s not here to extablish [sic] who’s right and who’s wrong

    Real talk

    I give you defendant Robert Kelly

    NSFW

    Pinandpuller (39e7a0)

  143. @121 kishnevi
    By Eugene Volokh August 6, 2015

    By the way, apropos trial by combat, I thought I’d recommend again “The Last Duel,” a history book by Eric Jager (a UCLA English Department professor, but one whom I’ve only met a few times).

    The book is about the last judicial trial by combat authorized by the French central government, in 1386; it seems quite thoroughly researched, but it’s also a page-turner. It’s got friendship gone sour; a battle to the death; a complaining witness (the wife of one of the combatants, who had accused the other of rape) who would face immediate burning at the stake (on the grounds that she had been proved a perjurer) if her husband and champion was defeated; and a battle scene that shocked even me, after all the battle scenes I’ve read about and watched in movies.

    Pinandpuller (39e7a0)

  144. @129 narciso

    Trump didn’t demand a dead guy be executed? He really is growing in the office.

    Pinandpuller (39e7a0)

  145. But Obama never denied saying “If you like your plan, you can keep it”

    True, he just smiled and implied “And? You f**ked up, you trusted me. Now it’s the law”

    harkin (10a18c)

  146. 149. I think you and Chuck Bartowski are talking about two different cases.

    Sammy Finkelman (20d02d)

  147. My dad enlisted for WWII as a 17 year old who would turn 18 in boot camp.
    He says he knew full well that deserting his post could get him shot, but he was not raised to ever consider that as an option.
    My grandparents never would have considered any statement by a President to be an option for a get out of jail free card. My grandmother would have cried for her son, my grandfather would have smoked ten cigarettes and ground his teeth and they both would have felt ashamed that they had failed both their son and their country by raising a son who would desert his post. They would not have buried him in the town cemetery, but instead maybe quietly in a far corner of my great grandparents farm

    There is no doubt Bergdahl had a rough go during captivity. Afghans are notorious for buggering their captives and they used to send the families of Russian prisoners VHS tapes in the mail of their sons getting buggered and tortured, so I get that this idiot walked off post into a living hell, I wish Trump would have had the composure to stand down until after the sentencing.
    Now Trump knows, but for some reason I’m 50/50 on whether or not he can stop himself. Normally I do not care much about Trumps tweets. I do about that one.

    steveg (e8c34d)

  148. steveg,

    It’s a form of Tourette’s

    Kevin M (752a26)

  149. Well judge nance proved the point in spades.

    narciso (d1f714)

  150. I’d be more critical if I wasn’t a complete nutcase sometimes too… if I was President the #NeverStevers would be correct. My greatest accomplishment would be circumnavigating the globe in an aircraft carrier, treating it like a cruise liner while muttering “where’s the g-damn pool”

    steveg (e8c34d)

  151. “”I want to apologize to Times readers — and to Sarah Huckabee Sanders — for a description that was insensitive and failed to meet the standards of our newspaper. It also failed to meet the expectations I have for myself. It surely won’t be my last mistake, but this particular error will be scrupulously avoided in my future commentaries. I’ve removed the offending description,” Horsey said.”

    At least one time our host can learn from the LATimes:

    http://dailycaller.com/2017/11/03/liberal-columnists-attack-sarah-sanders-for-her-weight-southern-accent/

    harkin (b32ce9)

  152. I really don’t know what to do.
    Rev.Hoagie® (6bbda7) — 11/2/2017 @ 2:17 pm

    Prayer is always a good recourse.

    felipe (023cc9)

  153. Will the republicans help the dems rid us all of this disingenuous disappointment, or will
    the republic cease to exist/ function altogether?

    Stay tuned!

    Lester Same (bd0348)


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