President Trump’s Attorney: “Let Me Be Clear, The President Is Not Under Investigation”
[guest post by Dana]
And yet, President Trump just tweeted this on Friday:
This morning, President Trump’s attorney Jay Sekulow made a stop on the Sunday talk shows. On each show he contradicted President Trump’s claim of being under investigation. According to Sekulow, the President’s tweet was a response to an anonymously sourced report in the Washington Post, which claimed that the President is under investigation by special counsel Robert Mueller. But if this report is what what Trump was responding to, then why wouldn’t he deny that he was under investigation, rather than confirm the claim? Why would he validate the “lying media” and an anonymously sourced report? After all, President Trump told us that by using social media, he can go around the fake media. And yet, here he is confirming an anonymously sourced report in the “fake media”.
Here is his exchange with Jake Tapper:
“So the president said ‘I am under investigation’ even though he isn’t under investigation?” Tapper asked.
“That response on social media was in response to the Washington Post piece,” Sekulow responded. “It’s that simple. The president is not under investigation.”
“Well, I wish it were that simple but with all due respect, the president said ‘I am being investigated’ in a tweet, and people take his word on that,” Tapper pushed back.
After Sekulow insisted that the tweet was really an attempt to call out the Post for putting out a “fake report, the CNN host shot back that it didn’t appear to do that at all, and in fact, made it appear that Trump was confirming the story.
“But it is confusing because the president said ‘I am being investigated’ and you’re saying that the Washington Post report is wrong, but no one did more to confirm the Washington Post report than the president,” Tapper noted. “I mean, CNN had not confirmed the Washington Post report but then President Trump came out and said, ‘I am being investigated.’”
Trump’s attorney replied by pointing out how big Trump’s social media reach is and that the “simple explanation” is that the president was responding to a story based on anonymous sourcing.
Here is Chuck Todd’s interview with Sekulow on Meet the Press:
Here is John Dickerson’s interview with Sekulow on Face the Nation:
(Question: In this interview, when Sekulow claims that the President is not under investigation, host John Dickerson follows up by asking Sekulow how he knows that. Sekulow responds: “There have been no notifications from the special counsel’s office that the President is under investigation. In fact, to the contrary.” Is there a legal obligation for the President to be officially notified if he were under investigation?)
But Chris Wallace on Fox News Sunday may have had the most head-scratching interaction of all:
All of this is a bit confusing – which may actually be the intent. But at the very, very least, it is yet another indicator that Trump needs to stop tweeting if he does not want to continue to undermine his own presidency. He is by far his own worst enemy. And he just keeps on proving it.
(Cross-posted at The Jury Talks Back.)
–Dana
It seemingly never ends. Like it or not, we are all being pulled into this swirling vortex of confusion, subterfuge, and mental exhaustion. I guess the question is, who is doing the pulling.
Dana (023079) — 6/18/2017 @ 10:22 amWe had eight years of Obama saying “I didn’t know until I read it in the newspaper”
And now we have Trump saying the same thing (and not for the first time…).
You know how families sometimes stage “interventions” when a family member is addicted? Perhaps Ivanka, Reince, and the rest need to stage an intervention with Trump.
“Dad, we need to have a talk about this Twitter thing”
kishnevi (d764f4) — 6/18/2017 @ 10:32 amNoticed Mitch Mcconnell today… on a 2% milk carton.
mg (31009b) — 6/18/2017 @ 10:33 amKishnevi,
Perhaps if the family praised Trump more??
Dana (023079) — 6/18/2017 @ 10:43 amI agree that Trump should stop tweeting or at least run his tweets past his lawyers. But I think in this case he meant to say: “The media say that I am being investigated for firing the FBI director …”
The first three words are (probably) implied, but he should have made them explicit.
Sauropod (271cbd) — 6/18/2017 @ 10:43 amSo Sekulow’s story is that Trump’s tweet was like the boy accused of robbery and murder in My Cousin Vinnie? “I shot the clerk.” “Yes. When did you shoot him?” “I shot the clerk.” It’s a New York thing, you wouldn’t understand.
nk (dbc370) — 6/18/2017 @ 10:44 amI’m still catching up on my Sunday morning DVR’d talking heads, but thank you for this post, Dana.
So far I’ve only seen the Fox News appearance, about which I commented on another thread (but reprint here because I have an inflated sense of self-importance, but yeah, also for thread continuity):
I complimented Jay Sekulow here the other day, and I do in general have a good opinion of him. But his appearance as a Trump surrogate on Fox News Sunday this morning was a disaster for him and his client. Of course Chris Wallace asked him some tough questions, including some with bad premises that required correction. But Sekulow came across like a guy who’s so tightly wound right now that he might go postal at any moment, and the interview deteriorated into a very ugly back-and-forth that Wallace got the better of. A lawyer has to project confident, easy grace even when — indeed, especially when — under stress, and Sekulow did the opposite of that today in this interview.
Beldar (fa637a) — 6/18/2017 @ 10:44 amI should add that professionally, I’m entirely sympathetic to Sekulow, because I think he may well have the single most challenging representation yet of any lawyer in the 21st Century. He has grounds to be tightly wound. But stepping back and looking at it with such professional dispassion as I can muster, this performance was a D- at best — as he’ll likely conclude by early evening, if he hasn’t been fired (or, I guess, even if he has been).
Beldar (fa637a) — 6/18/2017 @ 10:47 amI was particularly disappointed when Sekulow was caught so flat-footed in trying to explain how he’s entitled to simultaneously be both Trump’s advocate, a role in which he can and should and must speak in public about Trump’s positions, and Trump’s private counselor, a role in which he can’t and shouldn’t and mustn’t speak in public about what Trump has told him privately or that he has told Trump.
This is sometimes a tricky concept for non-lawyers, including and especially clients, to grasp. I routinely point this out to my clients when they first hire me and continually thereafter, and I have a whole page on this exact thing on my professional website, in fact.
The conversation usually goes something like, “I have two different jobs I must do for every client. Right now I’m wearing my counselor hat,” I will tell them, “and I’m about to tell you in utter secrecy and candor about all the unfortunate and ugly things you need to hear and understand in order to make good decisions.
“But when I’ve done that as your counselor here in private, under cloak of attorney-client privilege, then I’m going to take off my counselor hat and put on my advocate hat, and then I’m your gladiator marching to your instructions. So when you hear me tell you in private a whole bunch of ugly or unflattering things that I will not ever be saying about you in public, don’t fret. Don’t worry that I don’t believe in you or your case. Take a deep breath and calm yourself, and remember that I’m experienced in wearing both hats, but never at the same time.”
Beldar (fa637a) — 6/18/2017 @ 10:58 amHe was trying to draw that distinction, I think, when he tried to contrast what he was doing with what Comey had done. But that’s too big a leap to take in one jump, and it just seemed incomprehensible. To use that comparison effectively would have taken a good 90 seconds to lay out, and he didn’t have that, and it wasn’t a big enough point to justify that much emphasis.
Beldar (fa637a) — 6/18/2017 @ 10:59 amWatched a little of the the Wallace interaction. Wallace was being an asshole. Sekulow gave him an opening, though, by speaking “My Cousin Vinnie” and not adding a few more words to his sarcastic hypothetical to make it crystal clear that it was a hypothetical. Wallace saw the low road and took it. Very bad. Terrible. Dishonest.
nk (dbc370) — 6/18/2017 @ 11:00 amIt would seem nearly Impossible to represent someone like Trump, who is erratic, unpredictable, self-indulgent, dishonest and quite willing to throw anyone under the bus – including his lawyers. A continual moving target, so to speak. How on earth does a lawyer handle that?
Dana (023079) — 6/18/2017 @ 11:00 am@ Dana: I’ve had this conversation more than a few times. It goes:
“What you’re doing makes it impossible for me to continue representing you. Unless this changes in the following ways” — and then, I have to be very specific, e.g.: “You authorize us to drop our settlement demand from the $1M you think I should win for you and the $10k that I believe would be a reasonable settlement demand in your circumstances — “then I will reluctantly have to resign as your lawyer. You deserve a lawyer whose advice you will at least consider following, and I’m no longer that guy, so I’d be hurting you to continue, and I won’t.”
And then yeah, sometimes you have to withdraw. That’s a hard decision to come to — especially if you’re still getting paid, the failure of which is the far more common reason for a lawyer to resign a representation and withdraw — but you are at huge and increasing risk if you postpone it unreasonably, and you really are disserving your client.
Beldar (fa637a) — 6/18/2017 @ 11:06 amI believe Mr Sekulow is a Messianic Jew so I’m sure he’s used to bucking conventional wisdom.
Pinandpuller (51f366) — 6/18/2017 @ 11:08 amWhat an obviously chickensh*t question! How pathetic and obvious! Tapper has now been thoroughly assimilated into the CNN culture, which is too bad. I used to respect him a little, sometimes.
Sekulow missed an opportunity, though. He ought have stood up straight and said, “Oh, Jake, you know that’s a premise I don’t agree with, but to answer your question, I’m more proud to have this client than any client I’ve ever represented or could represent!” And then you pivot to your talking point.
Never let ’em see you sweating.
Beldar (fa637a) — 6/18/2017 @ 11:11 amas he’ll likely conclude by early evening, if he hasn’t been fired (or, I guess, even if he has been).
Maybe he’s trying to be fired.
kishnevi (d764f4) — 6/18/2017 @ 11:11 amBut why is he Trump’s lawyer in the first place? From what I remember about him, he’s mostly focused on freedom of religion/speech/other BOR cases.
Apropos of a news spot I just heard:
Old US Navy: Berthing Spaces
New US Navy: Birthing Spaces
Pinandpuller (51f366) — 6/18/2017 @ 11:12 am“if he hasn’t been fired”
Sekulow’s reaction to being fired might well be FREE AT LAST. It’s not as if he’s going to get a medal for throwing himself on every grenade Trump casually tosses.
Rick Ballard (5397ef) — 6/18/2017 @ 11:12 amThere’s some version of that, by the way, that the lawyer can say of every client. Timothy McVeigh’s lawyer could and did say things to the effect of, “My client has a constitutional presumption of innocence and the government has not yet proven anything in court, as it has the burden of doing. I believe that everyone is entitled to competent representation, especially when they’re in the worst jeopardy, so I look forward to representing my client zealously within the bounds of the law so that justice may be done in court, regardless of what’s happening here in the media.”
Beldar (fa637a) — 6/18/2017 @ 11:13 amIf Trump does sour on anyone on his legal team, it would be a mistake to fire him or let him resign. You just decrease his public role immediately, and in a few days you reassign him to continuing duty in the basement of, say, the Department of Agriculture.
Beldar (fa637a) — 6/18/2017 @ 11:15 amThere is nothing of substance to the investigation, Chris, name the law he was supposed to have broken, by contrast you need a whole new volume of Blackstone to list all of red Queens violations.
narciso (715336) — 6/18/2017 @ 11:18 amMcveigh had clearly blown up a federal building entailing a whole slew of statutes and violations. By contrast comey and brennanbwete likely guilty of a host of fraud including mail in theirfisa presentation
narciso (715336) — 6/18/2017 @ 11:21 amThis is were people like Beldar lose me ….. only thing 99% of America heard is Trump is not under investigation.
All the other stuff is nearly irrelevant outside a Court of Law.
Most of us are past the point we take every transaction and micro dissect it to ascertain some grand point.
Bottom line, what I heard today from multiple news reports is, right now we nothing from Mueller to indicate he is being investigated for anything.
Tomorrow is tomorrow and lord knows Mueller will investigate Trump’s bowel movement for signs of an unpaid tax lien to prosecute for.
Blah (44eaa0) — 6/18/2017 @ 11:21 amI’m so sick of this passing as “journalism”:
1. Host makes a short speech, factually spun and crafted to match talking points of the Democrats.
2. Host doesn’t permit a response to his speech from the interviewee.
3. Host instead immediately pivots to a question on some different topic.
4. [Optional: If interviewee objects and tries to respond to Host’s speech, Host pretends he’s been personally challenged and counterattacks ad hominem.]
This is now standard operating procedure for all the networks, alas.
Beldar (fa637a) — 6/18/2017 @ 11:25 amI think Trump was assuming, at least for the purposes of the tweet, that he was under investigation, and he had reasonable grounds for assuming that, because Dan Coats and some others and not associated with the campaign but only associated with the White house had beev conacted by the special counsel’s office. It is even likely that his lawyers had concluded that, and even guessed that it concerned in particular the firing the FBI Director as an overt act, and possibly the only one.
Jay Sekulow thought it was his job to defend the tweet, but also not to concede that there was actually any investigation. Now he could have drawn that distinction very clearly but he didnb’t.
I assume he must be inexperienced in something like this – otherwise just say that while he doesn’t know for a fact that the president is under investigation, he is per the Washington Post, story and the president was operating under that assumption, and complaining how unfair that was.
Now Sekulow is saying that’s a legal issue – but Trump wasn’t making any legal complaint. I guess Selulow felt it had to be of a legal nature oor otherwise that tweet itself would be obstruction of justice. But how?
Sammy Finkelman (8cff4d) — 6/18/2017 @ 11:25 am@ Blah (#23): I agree that there is some percentage of Americans who heard what you say they did, and who would believe that regardless of anything they heard, and that you are among that percentage. I am equally sure that group isn’t 99% of Americans. This is what I meant the other day, re “broad brushes.” I could extend the metaphor to also include earmuffs and blinders like those the horses wear in Manhattan, but I want to husband my metaphor-mixing capital for better occasions. Happy Father’s Day to the fathers in your life, and to you if you are one, Blah.
Beldar (fa637a) — 6/18/2017 @ 11:29 amNow Trump was making a complaint about there being a contradiction here. One objection to that tweet could be that it wasn’t exactly Rosenstein who was investigating him, although he may have started it. Now here Trump may assume that appointing a special counsel means starting an investigation of him, and its timing and other things means it’s an investigating whether firing Comey was an obstruction of justice.
All very simple.
Donald Trump was just saying Rosenstein had wanted Comey fired and now his following his advice was probably the key element of rhe invesigation and how can that be?
Of course the distinction is that Trump didn’t really follow Rosenstein’s advice, but rather, knowing what Rosenstein thought (having been told that by the Attorney General, Jeff Sessions, he arranged a meeting, heard it verbally himself from Rosenstein and then Rosenstein write it up, and then used it as his justifcation, and explained it to members of Congress that way too.
Rosenstein was used here.
This all probably happened because Trump was anxious to fire Comey, probably because of something in his May 3 testimony (not apparently his almost completely wrong testimony about emails being on Anthony Wweiner;’s computer because Huma Abedin had forwarded them to Anthony Weiner’s computer fr the purpose of printing them. In reality they were either an intentional or accidental backup. Intentional would be to retain them in a place that would not be subpoenaed.)
What might have disturbed Trump was Comey seeming to be more sorry that he might have afffected the election by his Oct 27 statement than that he might have affected it by clearing Hillary in July. seeming to agree or tell members of Congress that it was a bad thing Trump was elected.
Anyway, I think maybe some people wanted to stop Trump from mentioning Russia when firing Comey and they cooked up this (not invalid) other reason. Have Rosenstein write out his thoughts and use that. Sessions and Rosenstein had discussed this before either one of them had been confirmed. It is not clear who knew this.
This was such a sudden twist that Trump couldn’t leave out of his farewell letter to Comey that he appreciated being told by him three times that he was not under investigation but (nevertheless he wanted to fire him.)
This later led Senator Marco Rubio and others to conclude that Trump’s motive was that Comey would not repeat in public that Trump was not under investigation in the Russia matter, although he had told that to him and to key members of Congress. Nobody knows in fact what trigerred it.
Trump is assuming that now the possibility that he fired him Comey to obstruct justice is what is under investigation.
Sekulow’s defense of the tweet was there was a conflict of interest between having recommended the firing of the FBI Director and then the same Department of Justice investigating whether following that advice was a crime. I’m not sure how well it follows actually or waht you do about it.
Sammy Finkelman (8cff4d) — 6/18/2017 @ 11:31 am@ sauropod,
But that’s the point: no one should have guess what he meant. No one should have to play “Guess what he really meant,” which really means make his words support one’s personal preferences and beliefs. If he is not doeciplined enough to keep his damn mouth shut, or in this case, keep his hands off his phone because it is in everyone’s best interest,, then he sure as hell is unlikely to have the necessary discipline to effectively govern and lead. This just doesn’t seem hard.
Dana (023079) — 6/18/2017 @ 11:33 amSay what you want about Trump, but that is a pretty interesting observation if he is – in fact- being investigated for Obstruction.
Clearly his prior statements were not enough, even Comey has stated as much…in sworn testimony if I remember correctly.
Even without Comey’s statement(s), it’d be more than a little absurd to claim that the single person in the known universe with the unreviewable, irrevocable, irreversible power to pardon any person who may-have or did commit a Federal crime at any time before, during, or after an investigation, prosecution, or sentence is somehow guilty of “obstruction” merely by uttering the words “I hope…”
MJN1957 (6f981a) — 6/18/2017 @ 11:34 amThe irony is that Sekulow wouldn’t have had to be trotting around the shows trying to defend Trump if Trump had just been disciplined enough to remain silent. He is his own undoing.
Dana (023079) — 6/18/2017 @ 11:36 amI would ordinarily ignore any snomymously sources story, but Mueller certainly isnt because he had colluded with comey in the past on at least one occasion
narciso (48ecae) — 6/18/2017 @ 11:36 amWe concern ourselves with fact, well the predicate for this investigation is utter fraud and Christopher Steele and crowdstrike should be indicted for all that entails
narciso (48ecae) — 6/18/2017 @ 11:42 am@ Dana, re this question in your post: “Is there a legal obligation for the President to be officially notified if he were under investigation?”
I’m hoping nk or swc or Patterico or someone else with more criminal law experience than I have will enlighten us on this. In particular, I know there are rules that law enforcement officials, including prosecutors, have to follow in their communications with someone who’s a “subject” or “target,” but I don’t know those rules and don’t want to guess. The rules are basically designed to prevent investigative/prosecutorial abuse from soft-selling someone’s jeopardy or misleading them to believe they’ve been assured that they’re home free and can talk without fear of it being used in court. Miranda fits in there somewhere, too, but many others can explain this better than I.
I think there’s a unique constitutional question, though, regarding whether a POTUS in particular is entitled to ask, and get an immediate and truthful answer, to the question of whether he’s the subject or target of any on-going investigation. If for no other reason, a POTUS needs to know that to decide whether he may need to take steps to set up Chinese walls, to ensure that he isn’t accidentally involved in it (assuming, of course, he doesn’t step in and terminate it). At some point, in theory, a POTUS could and should conclude that despite his belief in his own innocence, the pendency of the charges against him is making it impossible for him to fulfill his duty to preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution as the head of the Executive Branch, at which juncture he ought to resign.
Is there an independent obligation, therefore, of the POTUS’ subordinates in the DoJ, through the AG, to apprise the POTUS the moment he becomes the subject or target of an investigation? I don’t know of any law or even informal precedent on that, nor that it’s addressed in the DoJ’s formal rules or manuals or procedures. I can think of excellent policy reasons for making such a rule, though, and that actually would be a good thing to debate and clarify. I don’t know if it could be done by executive order or if it would need a formal DoJ rulemaking under the Administrative Procedures Act, with notice & opportunity to comment, etc.
Beldar (fa637a) — 6/18/2017 @ 11:45 amLois Lerner should be in the docket as should holder for their offenses but oddly they arent.
narciso (07df6b) — 6/18/2017 @ 11:46 amBut let’s pretend the Looney mensch is right because that never leans anywhere but alexandria.
narciso (07df6b) — 6/18/2017 @ 11:48 am23. Blah (44eaa0) — 6/18/2017 @ 11:21 am
The only thing a previously uninformed person would take away from this is that Trump probably committed illegal acts because he’s got a lawyer who can’t answer a simple straight question, like whether or not the president is under investigation. He both says no and yes.
What people don’t realize is that an innocent person, or more precisely maybe a person innocent of what he is being accused of, and not expecting anything, is more likely to have a bad lawyer hthan a guilty one, who’s prepared.
Sammy Finkelman (8cff4d) — 6/18/2017 @ 12:05 pmI think sekulow was way to civil to this travismockam, this is why scalia reacted they way he did to Alexis mortisons brief.
narciso (d1f714) — 6/18/2017 @ 12:08 pmRe the “What you’re doing makes it impossible for me to continue representing you”-speech (#13), I should add that I’ve had to give this speech more times than I can count on all my fingers and toes and several small multiples thereof. The number of times I’ve had to resign because the client persisted on the particular issue, I can count on one hand and have fingers to spare. You have to mean it when you say you will quit, and the client needs to believe you mean it. But that’s usually the proverbial “Come to Jesus” moment for most clients. (Excuse again the sacri- or irreligious phrasing, which is metaphoric and applies equally to atheists as to priests.)
Beldar (fa637a) — 6/18/2017 @ 12:14 pmSekulow kept on repeating, on Fox News Sunday, that Comey had violated attorney client privilege (and that he wouldn’t)
The FBI Director doesn’t have attorney client privilege with the president. How ignorant, or out of his field, is this lawyer?
There might be executive privilege, but that belongs to the president, and he can, under that doctrine, prevent anyone else from being compelled by subpoena to reveal what he said to the preisdent or the president said to him – but the person is free to talk on his own initiative (barring such complications as non-disclosure agreements, privacy rules, classification etc.)
Anything can be said by a member of Congress on the floor or in committee, or in a written official document, and how Congress might discipline its members depends on the political atmosphere maybe.
In politically controversial situations, executive privilege is often waived, and it doesn’t rest on solid constitutional ground.
Sammy Finkelman (8cff4d) — 6/18/2017 @ 12:14 pmOr Ronnie earl or John chisholm or Brenda Murray all were prosecutors nit prosecutors
narciso (d1f714) — 6/18/2017 @ 12:18 pmIn newscof teal import:
narciso (d1f714) — 6/18/2017 @ 12:20 pmhttp://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2017/06/something_is_fishy_about_uss_fitzgerald_story_we_are_getting_from_the_media.html
And cirbyn voted down the installation of sprinklers in council flats
https://mobile.twitter.com/Alexicon83/status/875966005918539776/photo/1
narciso (d1f714) — 6/18/2017 @ 12:27 pmTrump’s bark is worse than his bite. Sekulow was probably the wrong choice to send into battle with the Sunday gotcha gang who have spent the week being fed by chatty anonymous officials said to be “close to the investigation.” His aggressive defense of Trump’s innocence will likely save him even if he disappears for awhile. The Clinton gang had a better sense of when to send Carville, Begala or Lanny Davis out to which interview but then they are the home team.
While he’d benefit from barking less on twitter even if he does he’s unlikely to stay quiet for long. As long as Trump the person stays under attack Trump the president should be doing what only a president can do. Clinton proved the wisdom of “doing the work the people sent me here to do.” Trump should get to work making the government great again by putting the cabinet on the spot for their out of control employees and alumni.
Michael Goodwin makes an interesting point today that regaining control of DOJ that was lost with Sessions recusal and Rosenstein’s delegation to Mueller and possible recusal is a bigger problem than whatever Mueller’s doing. Replacing them would be more effective than firing or battling Mueller. Fight the right fight.
crazy (d3b449) — 6/18/2017 @ 1:18 pmTrump’s Tweets ‘Official Statements,’ Spicer Says
http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/trump-s-tweets-official-statements-spicer-says-n768931
Accordingly, per an official Donald John Trump Presidential tweet: “I am being investigated for firing the FBI Director by the man who told me to fire the FBI director! Witch Hunt!”
Yet his lawyer says he’s not.
So ‘witch’ is it, fellas?
“Never mind what I told you! I’m telling you!!” – Captain Morton [James Cagney] ‘Mister Roberts’ 1955
_____
Today’s Beldar The Bitter “Watergate, Watergate, Watergate” Words Of Wonder:
“Nixon bleeds people. He draws every drop of blood then drops them from a cliff. He’ll blame any person he can put his foot on.” – Martha Mitchell
DCSCA (797bc0) — 6/18/2017 @ 1:27 pm41. So if we end up with a chunk of North Korea, if our experience avenging the Maine is to be repeated, nk suggests we treat them even worse than Gangnam Style guy.
urbanleftbehind (6a358f) — 6/18/2017 @ 1:45 pmSmile. It’s Father’s Day. ‘Tie’ one on:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NePo9ooA6WM
DCSCA (797bc0) — 6/18/2017 @ 1:47 pmI am unable to find whether an official notification to the president of an investigation is required. Does anyone know??
Dana (023079) — 6/18/2017 @ 2:20 pmFor the benefit of Mr Don
We do Shakespeare on the lawn, 23 stab wounds!
The Partisans will all be there
Lately overheard in Times Square, “It’s a scream!”
Undertaxed men and nags, poofs and partners
Bigly sore losers, pants on fire
In this way Mr T emboldens the art world
The denigrated Mr T
Composes his tweets Saturday at Mar a Lago
The Partisans will wail and gnash
As Mr T flies through their balderdash, I don’t relate
Messrs. T and P, assure the patrons
Were not harmed in the production
And our friend DCSCA is there
To render the schmaltz
The end begins at
Half past a senator’s a$$
When Mr T hides his face
Without a laurel
And Mr T will take his place
Six liters light before Pompey
2,000 years in reflection
Sic Semper Donaldus for some
And tonight Mr T is top of the bill
Pinandpuller (16b0b5) — 6/18/2017 @ 2:23 pm@48. A means to an end, P&P! And in the end, they’ll all kowtow.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8Zzl_HH4XQ
DCSCA (797bc0) — 6/18/2017 @ 2:36 pm@39
IANAL, but isn’t it a sort of general principle in similar situations like admissibility of certain subjects in court, or refusing to testify due to self-incrimination, or non-disclosure agreements, that if the “privileged” party “opens the door” by discussing the matter, the privilege is lost?
Trump very publicly revealed details of his allegedly privileged conversations with Comey in the firing letter (“While I greatly appreciate you[sic] informing me, on three separate occasions, that I am not under investigation…”).
How can it be reasonable that Trump is allowed to cherry-pick elements of their private discussions that make him look good and Comey look bad, and broadcast them publicly, but Comey is not allowed to refer to those same unclassified conversations to refute and provide important context for Trump’s attacks?
Again we have a case where Trump might been on solid ground, if he hadn’t insisted on shooting his mouth off (it was reported at the time that his advisors told him not to include that non-sequitur in the letter, but he did it anyway, because he was so obsessed).
Dave (711345) — 6/18/2017 @ 2:43 pmI think the answer to that is “It depends.”
First we have to look at the 28 USC 600 — the law that created and governs special counsels (prior law called them special prosecutors. Section 600.8 concerns Notification and reports by the Special Counsel:
So the next place we need to look is the “Departmental Guidelines.” I assume that is for the Department of Justice. 28 USC 600.7. A Google searcg returns several documents that might be relevant, including Principles of Federal Prosecution, new guidelines from Attorney General Sessions regarding Charging and Sentencing Guidelines to Federal Prosecutors, and the US Attorneys’ Manual.
In 2002, the Congressional Research Service noted the Special Counsel law differed from its predecessor in several ways, including:
This is long so I will continue in another comment.
DRJ (15874d) — 6/18/2017 @ 2:43 pmIn my view, this comes down to whether investigating a President is a signigicant event that would require an Urgent Report under the DOJ guidelines. It might (from the CRS link in my last comment):
In addition, the AG or Acting AG may request an update at any time (I wonder if we stopped hearing from Rosenstein because he asked for an update? I doubt it since I don’t think he could allow Sekulow to contradict that, but who knows?):
There’s more at the link and I haven’t looked at the DOJ Manual, which is why it’s smart of Beldar to suggest people like swc weigh in. Thsee comments are just scratching the surface of an answer to Dana’s question, but it’s a start.
DRJ (15874d) — 6/18/2017 @ 2:44 pmEen if the Special Counsel notifies the Acting AG, that doesn’t necessarily mean the AG would notify the President. However, I would assume he would and I think the CRS analysis implicitly contemplates it would happen.
DRJ (15874d) — 6/18/2017 @ 2:52 pmThe Special Counsel statute (28 CFR 600.6, Powers and Authority) says
There is no mention of explicit duty to inform the targets of investigations in that statute. The only reporting and notification mentioned explicitly in the statute is to the AG.
But it sounds like whatever rules and procedures govern US Attorneys also apply to the Special Counsel, apart from this:
Dave (711345) — 6/18/2017 @ 2:56 pmSarnathed by DRJ!
Dave (711345) — 6/18/2017 @ 2:58 pm@48.- ‘It was 45 years ago today;
DCSCA (797bc0) — 6/18/2017 @ 3:05 pmGordon Liddy taught the band to play…’
@51- I think the answer to that is “It depends.”
Which make for quite a load in an adult diaper.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 6/18/2017 @ 3:08 pm58, DC Comics, don’t you know that adult diapers are actually being promoted as fashionable ladies undergarments to late boomers and early gen x-ers.
urbanleftbehind (6a358f) — 6/18/2017 @ 3:29 pmThe matters that are subject to “review and approval” procedures are set out in a Prior Approvals Chart of the US Attorneys’ Manual.
DRJ (15874d) — 6/18/2017 @ 3:32 pmMy last link is not an exclusive list. However, I think viewing this as a question of when a prosecutor needs to tell a target about an investigation isn’t very relevant as long as the Special Counsel provision requires notice and oversight by the Attorney General. Notice to the AG is likely going to happen much earlier than any notice to a potential target.
DRJ (15874d) — 6/18/2017 @ 3:36 pmIthen is the AG obligated to inform a president that he is being investigated?
Dana (023079) — 6/18/2017 @ 3:40 pmI have no idea and, unfortunately, I don’t have the time to look into it now.
Dana, most legal questions in cases called “of first impression” are not easy to answer. What makes the law predictable is years of legal cases where different courts rule in similar ways in cases with similar facts. Anything having to do with Special Counsel cases is essentially a case of first impression because there have been few/no cases under this relatively new law. So anything anyone says will be an opinion. I don’t think anyone can answer these questions for sure.
DRJ (15874d) — 6/18/2017 @ 4:20 pmTrump’s Tweets ‘Official Statements,’ Spicer Says
Yes. he started calling it that, now. That’s probably what it is. (It also means they, in their position, can’t chalenge them, but that could get ridiculous)
Sammy Finkelman (8cff4d) — 6/18/2017 @ 4:25 pm@48. Picture yourself in a bed and on Twitter;
DCSCA (797bc0) — 6/18/2017 @ 4:43 pmWith two scoops of ice cream and chocolate cream pies;
Somebody calls you, you answer quite slowly;
A girl with Slovenian eyes…
Thanks, DRJ, that makes sense.
Dana (023079) — 6/18/2017 @ 4:54 pmOrdinarily, law enforcement does not notify spontaneously a suspect that he is being investigated. To the contrary, they operate in secret with sealed warrants for wiretaps and snitches masquerading as accomplices. I don’t know whether there is a special rule for special counsel, or for the President, and therefore how much Mr. Sekulow’s repeated assertion that the President has received no such notification is worth.
I know that a person who suspects that he is a suspect, when overtly or covertly approached by law enforcement, has a right to demand to know whether he is being investigated for a crime and even enforce his Fourth and Fifth Amendment rights preemptively in court. Sam Giancana got an FBI agent held in contempt in a rule to show cause for violating an injunction limiting the FBI’s surveillance on him.
nk (dbc370) — 6/18/2017 @ 4:56 pmGreat research and analysis DRJ. It would seem the decision belongs to the acting AG who as Andy McCarthy has been pointing out the deficiencies in Rosenstein’s appointment of Mueller:
Meanwhile Pierre Thomas of ABC begins to walk back reports of investigation of Trump.
crazy (d3b449) — 6/18/2017 @ 5:09 pmBreaking: CNN reports London Metropolitan Police report vehicle collides w/pedestrians in London; several casualties.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 6/18/2017 @ 5:22 pmChris Wallace today resembled Kamala Harris in his interview of Sokulow interrupting and not letting him answer.
I skipped most of the NeverTrump comments.
Mike K (f469ea) — 6/18/2017 @ 5:27 pmI skipped most of the NeverTrump comments.
Good thing you did. I called Mike Wallace an asshole in my first one. Reading it might have upset you.
nk (dbc370) — 6/18/2017 @ 5:31 pmI have to disagree, Dana. Oh, not with the fact Trump is his own worst enemy. He certainly is. It’s the “by far” part of the statement. I’d have to say that the Congressional Republicans, Democrats, the LHMFM (but I repeat myself), and the bureaucratic state are all close second place runners-up.
Steve57 (0b1dac) — 6/18/2017 @ 5:32 pmWell, ok, it was my second one.
nk (dbc370) — 6/18/2017 @ 5:33 pmI know some people here see me as a Trump apologist, but add me to the group that was surprised when the media started to say Trump was verifying that he was under investigation.
Trump almost always tweets about news reports and I took his tweet as a poke at the Post.
First the Post and Media are all Russia all the time, then that gets blown up, so they immediately pivot to another fake news story about “obstruction” with fabricated, anonymous or dicey sources.
CNN’s Acosta showed how media does this embellishment… this was over the “Did Trump really visit Scalise” file.
Acosta took a WH Pool report of dubious lineage and renamed it “White House Sources” to give it gravitas.
The Post cited 5 “sources” and lets be clear, Trump has only verbal communication from the FBI that he is not the subject of an investigation. The FBI is like all cops… they lie whenever it suits them
Trump responds to the media so often that my default position is that first I think he is batting back at the media… wayyyy second is that he is actually referring to an active investigation.
In this particular instance I saw Trump’s tweet as a swat at the Post, not as affirmation of an investigation.
After this is busted they’ll pivot to the emoluments clause
steveg (e8c34d) — 6/18/2017 @ 5:47 pmnot with the fact Trump is his own worst enemy.
I am kind of pro-Trump but understand that he is unlike any American politician in a long, long time.
Maybe Huey Long might be a comparison.
Anybody who is willing to take on the Deep State, and do most of it with his own fortune, is going to be a little bit crazy.
I hope he wins and if he loses, we are all f**ked. I am older than almost all of you so I can say this with considerable equanimity as I will not have to live with the consequences if he fails and is overthrown.
Just be careful what you wish for…
Mike K (f469ea) — 6/18/2017 @ 6:10 pmHave I changed your mind about something, Mike K?
DRJ 5/20/2017, in a discussion with Mike K where he told me he wanted to hear “from people who know these people and don’t just rely on angry biased media for impressions”:
The same day, Mike K responded:
Was this you today at another website, Mike K?
DRJ (15874d) — 6/18/2017 @ 6:16 pmThe 14th brumaire seems to control, clearlynthere is no there, but that didn’t matte with delay, or walker or the huntress, same for quattrone and stephen hatfill
narciso (d1f714) — 6/18/2017 @ 6:19 pmI think the Sunday hosts exposed themselves today.
There is NO support for their position that Trump was confirming the fact of an investigation — other than their interpretation that Trump was confirming the fact of an investigation.
So when Trump’s spokesman comes out and says “He was responding to a news report saying he’s under active investigation according to anonymous sources”, and the best the news media can say is “We view his statement as indicating otherwise” — well, you know what they want the story to be, and what they would be disappointed in if the story turned out to be something else.
The words belong to Trump. Trump gets to provide meaning and context to his own words — the media doesn’t get to provide meaning and context to the words of others when what they provide has no factual support from another source.
shipwreckedcrew (56b591) — 6/18/2017 @ 6:26 pmYes shipwrecked was pointing to the absurdity of the whole thing, but we are supposed to act like ministry of silly walks is a real thing
narciso (d1f714) — 6/18/2017 @ 6:29 pm@ Mike K,
I don’t understand this. You seem to assume that some of us wish that he fails at the presidency. This couldn’t be farther from the truth, at least for me. I want Trump, as with any president, to succeed at leading our country into a more prosperous and peaceful period by working with Congress and enacting sound policies that represent Conservative ideals. I want to see Trump follow through on his campaign promises in order to have that success. Unfortunately, Trump keeps getting in the way of Trump and meeting those goals. That assessment is based on what we have seen so far. It is making an informed observation, not just hoping he fails and making an empty claim.
Dana (023079) — 6/18/2017 @ 6:32 pmSo srkuloe may not have used the right verbiage but one might as well be talking to cigar store indians
narciso (d1f714) — 6/18/2017 @ 6:33 pmThis is one of predicates for this investigation:
http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/22109
The dosssier was another, and grassley is zeroing in onthe source for that.
narciso (d1f714) — 6/18/2017 @ 6:39 pmDana doesn’t it concern you at all that if Trump is perceived as being successful, we will have more like him (i.e. corrupt, aggressively ignorant compulsive liars, who mock the handicapped, insult POWs and Gold Star families, inflame prejudice against religious and ethnic minorities, brag about brutalizing women, incite his supporters to commit political violence, etc).
Except the next Trump may not be a bumbling, incompetent Commandant Klink like the present one, but an efficient butcher and usurper of institutions like Trump’s idol and benefactor, Vladimir Putin.
To the extent he has any consistent philosophy, Trump is a nationalist/tribalist and would be unable to articulate even a single core principle of conservatism. But even if the man agreed with me right down the line on every last detail of policy, I would still oppose him to my last breath, because he is evil and unfit to lead a great and good nation like the United States of America. And he is destroying and discrediting the only philosophy and political party that can oppose the dangerous and destructive schemes of the left in the long term.
In my view, it’s like we are trapped in a car driven by a rather dim-witted seven year-old with ADHD, who is absolutely convinced (from playing video games) that he is the best driver in the world. I’m not inclined to praise him when he briefly drives on the right side of the street, or narrowly manages to avoid hitting things and running people over (he won’t listen to advice anyway, and criticism just makes him press the gas pedal harder). And despite your “make the best of it” attitude, it doesn’t seem to me like a good opportunity to run some needed errands, either. Rather, I want to get that kid out of the driver’s seat NOW, before he does irreparable damage.
Dave (711345) — 6/18/2017 @ 7:20 pm@56 DCSCA
Gordon Lightfoot maybe.
The legend lives on
From the Chippewa on down
About the big guy they call
“Sock It To Me”.
Pinandpuller (51f366) — 6/18/2017 @ 7:22 pmSo if the dossier and the crowdstrike report. Was fraudulent then its fruit of the poison tree?
narciso (d1f714) — 6/18/2017 @ 7:25 pmi love how i can click and hear real live propaganda sluts like cnn fake news jake tapper
but it makes me feel a little dirty
happyfeet (28a91b) — 6/18/2017 @ 7:26 pm“In my view, it’s like we are trapped in a car driven by a rather dim-witted seven year-old”
steveg (e8c34d) — 6/18/2017 @ 7:27 pmWhy are you bringing Obama into the conversation? Those 8 years are history
Lets stick to Trump
To paraphrase Edwin Starr, what is the GOP house and senate good for.
narciso (d1f714) — 6/18/2017 @ 7:29 pmYou’re the one who brought Obama into the conversation.
Dave (711345) — 6/18/2017 @ 7:31 pmwhy don’t the sleazy cnn jake tapper fake news propaganda sluts just ask corrupt fbi p.o.s. robert mueller what the eff he’s sucking up all these tax dollars investigating
happyfeet (28a91b) — 6/18/2017 @ 7:39 pmInartfully put pikachu but essentially correct.
narciso (d1f714) — 6/18/2017 @ 7:40 pmProbably because any moderately intelligent and even slightly well-informed person knows the answer.
Do you think Mueller appointed himself?
Dave (711345) — 6/18/2017 @ 7:50 pmDave,
Trump being perceived as being successful is not the same as actually having been successful, of course. And that is a problem because there are far too many willing to tout that which isn’t really a success as one, because they need to believe, need to have their vote validated, are delusional about the president, or maybe they are just that tribal. And these days it seems that given 8 years of Obama ruling by fiat, endless EO’s are considered successes.
Dana (023079) — 6/18/2017 @ 8:16 pmRepeat “I fired Comey because he would not tell the truth about the President of the United States. Truth was no investigation.”
That is all Trump needs to repeat from today till whenever.
It is true, it is also legal.
Blah (44eaa0) — 6/18/2017 @ 8:19 pmWe could discuss why the GOP. Ant be. Bothered with a wall, caner get its act together re tax reform. Or confirm the nominees he has proposed in a timely manner
narciso (d1f714) — 6/18/2017 @ 8:24 pmThe premise (that Comey wouldn’t tell the truth) is false. The decision was not his to make.
Immediately after the president made his request, Comey passed it to the Acting Deputy Attorney General. He received no response. When Trump inquired again, Comey encouraged him to have the White House Counsel contact the Acting Deputy Attorney General directly, “which was the traditional channel”.
It is abundantly clear from Comey’s earlier testimony to congress (before he was fired) that statements about who is or is not under investigation must be cleared by the Department of Justice. The FBI director doesn’t get to decide.
Dave (711345) — 6/18/2017 @ 8:42 pmComey has been using the power of his office to destroy lives for 15 years now,
narciso (d1f714) — 6/18/2017 @ 8:47 pm“but the person is free to talk on his own initiative” ….
Nope. Completely absolutely 100% wrong. Everyone who is in a conversation which qualifies for executive privilege is a fiduciary of the POTUS, owing duties of confidentiality much like those owed by a lawyer. But it can extend to non-lawyers. Just as I could be stopped by a civil injunction from carrying out announced plans to disclose one of my client’s confidences, a non-lawyer who is in the executive privilege group could be enjoined, and published by fines and jail for contempt of court.
Beldar (fa637a) — 6/18/2017 @ 8:52 pmThe privilege belongs to the POTUS. Only he can make valid decision whether to assert it or waive it. This is true for attorney-client privilege and executive privilege both.
Beldar (fa637a) — 6/18/2017 @ 8:53 pmAnd yes, executive privilege does indeed rest on solid constitutional ground.
Sheesh.
Beldar (fa637a) — 6/18/2017 @ 8:54 pmIncluding the eight years (2005-2013) that he didn’t hold any office? Wow.
The confirmation time for Trump’s appointees is running a bit longer than Obama’s but the real problem is that he has nominated less than 1/5 of the positions that need to be filled.
Out of 558 key positions requiring Senate confirmation, Trump has formally nominated only 94, with another 7 “waiting nomination” (which means the name has been announced but the paperwork hasn’t been filed so they can be officially considered).
And remember, he’s the greatest manager in the history of the universe…
“Nobody knows the system better than me. Which is why I alone can fix it.” – Donald Trump, Republican National Convention speech
When he said “I alone can fix it” he apparently meant that literally (i.e. he wasn’t going to bother appointing 80+% of the government’s political appointees).
Dave (711345) — 6/18/2017 @ 9:18 pmWhere is that written down?
Dave (711345) — 6/18/2017 @ 9:26 pm@ crazy, re #67: I don’t disagree with Mr. McCarthy, but there’s something important I think he didn’t discuss in the piece you linked.
The actual order appointing Comey is similar to, but slightly different from, that which appointed Patrick Fitzgerald, even though both were appointed in part under the special counsel regulation, 28 CFR part 600, drafted by the Janet Reno DoJ in 1999 in the weeks after Bubba’s acquittal in the Senate. Comey was brought in for Plamegate not from outside the DoJ, which is what 28 CFR part 600 actually contemplates, but from a remote U.S. Attorney’s office, that of the Northern District of Illinois (which includes Chicago), where he’d just finished the high-profile prosecution of Tony Rezko. They still had some funding that had been appropriated under the old independent counsel statute that expired in 1999, so as a bit of budgeting ledgerdomain, they paid Fitzgerald and his staff’s salaries and expenses out of that, at least in part. But they clearly didn’t either try to, or succeed in, making all the terms of Fitzgerald’s appointment fit 28 CFR part 600. Instead, the decision to pick a sitting U.S. Attorney, and to pay him out of the independent counsel funds, was treated as an administrative decision of the Attorney General made ad hoc and outside the normal federal regulations. So Fitzgerald’s original appointment, and then a supplemental one (made when they figured out the budgeting trick) restating his appointment, also cited, in addition to 28 CFR part 600, the more general statutes that set up the DoJ and make the AG its department head. A couple of years down the road, some internal auditor within DoJ had to re-examine this and bless the funding, and the resulting opinion confirmed: “Nope, this didn’t fully comply with 28 CFR section 600, but to the extent it didn’t, the variation was within the AG’s power and discretion, because he (and his principal, the POTUS) have discretion to grant variances from the normal rules that normally bind this executive department.
I think Mr. McCarthy would agree with me that there’s no doubt about whether the Mueller special counsel appointment is within Rosenstein’s (as Acting AG’s) statutory authority in assigning a foreign intelligence investigation to Mueller. He’s clearly correct that it’s not directly authorized by the special counsel reg, which by its terms only refers to “criminal investigations.” But Rosenstein was free to vary from it and appoint Mueller to do this even without a reg that specifically authorizes it, because that’s within the broader statutory authority that’s held by the AG and that pre-existed (and made possible) the rulemaking procedure that ultimately produced the special counsel regulation. And that’s what Mr. McCarthy left out of his piece that I thought an important omission.
The Mueller appointment likewise contains the same references to the enabling statutes that were used to support paying Fitzgerald even though he wasn’t from outside the DoJ and out of a fund originally intended to be used under a since-expired statute. And my hunch is that Rosenstein quite deliberately and knowingly chose to write the appointment, and in particular its specification of the matters being committed to Mueller’s jurisdiction, expressly and deliberately in terms of the pending foreign intelligence investigation. By that time, Rosenstein also knew that the foreign intelligence investigation had already spun off one or more (Flynn, Manafort, maybe others) criminal investigations, so the reg could directly justify at least that portion of what he was appointing Mueller to take over. But referring just to the foreign intelligence investigation — without mentioning Flynn or Manafort or anyone else — let Rosenstein remain as opaque as possible, giving the fewest possible hints to the extent of any ongoing criminal investigation(s).
Mr. McCarthy is right, of course, that this kind of specification of the special counsel’s appointment makes it much easier for a special counsel to go on “fishing expeditions,” or more specifically, to wander around looking for, or maybe looking to create, some process crimes (false statement, perjury, obstruction).
But I suspect that Rosenstein thought about this, concluded as I have (and as I think McCarthy would if asked directly) that Rosenstein had statutory authority to do it the way he did it, and that he’s legally correct even though it has the (intended) effect of saying less than would otherwise be said. Normally, as Mr. McCarthy points out, the appointment would need to specify the particulars of a criminal investigation, which would then rein in the prosecutor’s discretion, as well as giving the public and the target of the investigation formal public notice (via the appointment, which is a public document transmitted by the AG to the chair and ranking member of the House & Senate judiciary committees) of its scope.
Beldar (fa637a) — 6/18/2017 @ 9:29 pmErrata (#102): That ought to have read: “The actual order appointing Mueller is similar to, but slightly different from, that which appointed Patrick Fitzgerald ….”
Beldar (fa637a) — 6/18/2017 @ 9:30 pmAnd errata (#102): The next sentence ought have read: “Fitzgerald was brought in for Plamegate not from outside the DoJ …”
Beldar (fa637a) — 6/18/2017 @ 9:32 pmAnother point that seems to me overlooked in the executive privilege question is that Trump’s pressure on Comey was not an exercise of Trump’s presidential duties.
One school of apologism claims that saying “I hope…” was merely an idle expression carrying no official weight, which Comey was under no obligation to heed, and which therefore could not have been obstruction of justice. If so, then how is it a privileged presidential communication? According to this line of thought, Trump might as well have been talking about the weather.
Further, the president allegedly offered no justification for his request, apart from “Flynn’s a good guy”. The president has no power to secretly suspend faithful execution of the laws for “good guys” and the decision to pursue or abandon a particular investigation or prosecution is (based on everything I’ve read) the decision of the DoJ (with the FBI’s advice), not the FBI itself. So even if Trump’s request *did* carry official, presidential authority (as the apologists would prefer to deny), he had no power as president to make this particular request to the FBI director and the fact of it being made could not be privileged.
And to reiterate, before Comey divulged anything, Trump himself publicly revealed details of the conversations in question that were cherry-picked to make him look good and Comey look bad. It seems to me that if someone publicly discloses the content of a private conversation to discredit you, you are released from any obligation you may have had to preserve the confidentiality yourself.
Dave (711345) — 6/18/2017 @ 10:09 pmExecutive privilege doesn’t just extend to the executive discussions that you think are cool, Dave.
It extends to all confidential communications between the POTUS and his top advisers that is part of the POTUS’ seeking information and expressing reactions thereto, including but by no means limited to direct marching orders. They weren’t talking about baseball scores. Aspirational and well-intentioned or wicked and obstructive of justice, this conversation was part of both men’s jobs. That’s the end of the inquiry in terms of establishing the entitlement to claim privilege.
There’s a further, separate inquiry into whether this privilege, which is conditional, can be overridden, and in that context one does again have to consider not just whether it was a job-related communication but one so important to the functioning of the Executive that it can be kept privileged despite a compelling and urgent national interest in the communication being revealed — the Nixon tapes case being the SCOTUS touchstone on this.
Trump did not reveal in detail the substance of the communications, no quotes, no close paraphrases. I absolutely disagree with your waiver argument, but here’s something I’m 100% sure of: It wasn’t Jim Comey’s call, no more than it’s yours or mine, to take upon ourselves the role of the judge who someday might actually have to rule on that waiver question. Comey has no more right to conclude that his principal has already waived a privilege than he does to waive it on his own to begin with.
Beldar (fa637a) — 6/18/2017 @ 10:52 pmAre you a lawyer, Dave?
God help your clients if so.
Beldar (fa637a) — 6/18/2017 @ 10:54 pmDave I am baffled at why you think the POTUS is subordinate to or limited by regs which commit certain judgements to DOJ. He is not. He can disregard all of them if he wishes. Trump is not bound by anything created by Eric Holder or Janet Reno under prior administrations.
Shipwreckedcrew (f292fa) — 6/18/2017 @ 11:04 pm“(A)t the very, very least, it is yet another indicator that Trump needs to stop tweeting if he does not want to continue to undermine his own presidency. He is by far his own worst enemy. And he just keeps on proving it.”
– Dana
I understand why you say this and, until quite recently, I completely agreed. I not sure I do any more. My feeling is that Trump being Trump is exactly what the nation needs at this point. I think he should fire Mueller too. Trump is at his best when he is on offense. He should keep it up. Moreover, Clinton’s Lewinsky strategy is the example of how to weather a gathering storm. When Bill Clinton’s exploitation of Lewinsky became public knowledge, he appealed to his base and his base roared back in support. I think Trump will win if he does because his base, too, will roar in support and his opponents in the Republican party will, ultimately, cower. What Republican House or Senate member would be re-elected if they betray Trump. Not one. It would be political suicide.
ThOR (c9324e) — 6/18/2017 @ 11:09 pmThOR, it frightens me that there are almost certainly people who have Trump’s ear who are telling him what you just wrote (#109). It frightens me because if Trump were to fire Mueller tomorrow, he’d be impeached and convicted before Halloween.
You talk about his win in November, which was critical. Recall that it took him longer to secure the GOP nomination than any candidate since 1976, and that he continued losing important late states in the primary, like Wisconsin and Ohio, that he ended up carrying in the general. You are vastly overestimating the depth of his support even in the Republican Party, I believe. Regardless, you are definitely overestimating the depth of his support on the Hill. On the Hill, from the standpoint of individual GOP senators and members of Congress, they’re looking at 2018 and their own states and districts. In a red state that Trump lost in the primaries, there is no price for them to pay, and they’re not worried about being primaried from the right by some Trump revanchism wave. If he gets impeached and convicted, Trumpism shatters into a million pieces.
I had to remind myself recently when I was looking at these special counsel regs that Clinton’s senate acquittal was early in 1999, when he still had the better part of two years left on his last term. Now your best-case and desired scenario is to emulate Clinton’s last two years of relative impotency? Even Al Gore didn’t want Bubba to campaign with him.
Beldar (fa637a) — 6/18/2017 @ 11:31 pmNope. Physics professor.
Before that, you managed to go one whole post without any gratuitous personal insults, though, so you’re making real progress.
You said:
That is quite a strong assertion. I asked where that was written down and you didn’t deign to respond (it certainly isn’t in the constitution, and it almost certainly isn’t in any statute, so if you aren’t just making it up, it must be in one or more court decisions).
I skimmed both US vs. Nixon and Nixon vs. Sirica, and didn’t see anything resembling the obligations you describe for former government employees. Both those decisions (as I, an unworthy non-lawyer, understand them!) concern the president’s obligation (or lack thereof) to comply with subpoenas. I saw nothing concerning former federal employees being stripped of their First Amendment rights in unclassified matters, though.
I am truly interested to understand what authority you think places this obligation on Comey, that Trump can reveal cherry-picked information from their private conversations but Comey can’t refer to those same conversations to provide important context for the public attack on his integrity and competence.
Trump disclosed what he considered the single most important detail of those communications. In fact he characterized Comey’s exact words. I don’t see how you can say “not under investigation” isn’t a quote or close paraphrase, if that is in fact what Comey told him.
@108, SWC
I think you are surely right that the president can in principle change any rule created by previous administrations, but in a nation of laws, not men, there is a process for doing that, is there not? And it involves more than just an off-hand, undocumented remark in the middle of a 1-on-1 private meeting. The rules are written down so everybody knows what they are, and when you change the rules, you have to promulgate the new rule. Obviously that wasn’t done, so the existing rule would remain in effect.
Your suggestion seems to be that the president can arbitrarily and secretly change the procedures for administration of justice on a day to day basis, without leaving any paper trail. I can’t imagine you really believe that.
But do you then agree that Trump’s instruction to “let this go” was intended as an official instruction to a subordinate, and not simply a throw-away remark with no legal or administrative import? Otherwise how are any “regs” involving DOJ even relevant?
Dave (711345) — 6/19/2017 @ 12:33 amPlease take a moment to read this fabulous interview with the retiring Chairman Chaffetz. It’s from the Full Measure show, which is always worth your attention (Sunday mornings in syndication).
Chaffetz speaks directly as to the treachery and mendacity of the GOP leadership stalling reforms. DJT is up against a Marianas trench Deep State.
http://fullmeasure.news/news/cover-story/the-oversight-man-06-18-2017
Ed from SFV (3400a5) — 6/19/2017 @ 1:35 am@112
Yeah, that’s quite an indictment of … the Trump Administration.
Dave (711345) — 6/19/2017 @ 1:58 amRead it and weep, no Trumpers.
mg (31009b) — 6/19/2017 @ 2:23 amhttps://townhall.com/columnists/kurtschlichter/2017/06/19/if-the-left-wins-their-soft-coup-everyone-loses–but-mostly-them-n2342884
Lawyers are lower than whale crap and D.C. proves it every gosh darn day.
mg (31009b) — 6/19/2017 @ 2:27 amhttp://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2017/06/muellers_real_mandate.html
@111. I skimmed both US vs. Nixon and Nixon vs. Sirica, and didn’t see anything resembling the obligations you describe for former government employees.
Sirica? Nixon? Watergate? Whoa, Dave, we know how they like that referenced these days. Remember who and what you’re dealing with: frustrated ideologues who let their party get hijacked by someone who once openly characterized them as ‘the dumbest group of voters in the country.’ And proved himself right.
“I will appoint an attorney general who will reform the Department of Justice like it was necessary after Watergate. My attorney general will restore the integrity of the Department of Justice, which has been severely questioned.” – Donald Trump, October, 2016
https://trumppromised.us/promise/reform-the-department-of-justice
DCSCA (797bc0) — 6/19/2017 @ 2:59 am“I hope…” was merely an idle expression carrying no official weight…
Meh. Not in the Big Apple. The Junior Don blew that out of the water w/a tweet or two and an interview on Fox. When the Papa Don says ‘I hope’ something– there’s no ambiguity- he means get it done— and usually in a New York minute. Remember, they ‘had that thing’… gave him two weeks, no action so Comey’s was a canned fish.
Given the gilded, brassy lifestyle of the Trump family, you’d think they’d grasp why ‘silence is golden.’
DCSCA (797bc0) — 6/19/2017 @ 3:30 amWe must chase unicorns we know they exist
https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2017/06/19/we-need-robert-mueller-resignation-or-second-special-counsel-glenn-reynolds-column/102990890/
narciso (9b6052) — 6/19/2017 @ 4:38 amYes holder turned main justice into a band of firemen like in sanford and ferguson and brigands extorting banks but not convicting any guilty meanwhile he labored to give the 9/11 hijackers more privileges than their victims
narciso (9b6052) — 6/19/2017 @ 4:41 amHere’s another legacy:
narciso (9b6052) — 6/19/2017 @ 4:44 amhttps://www.buzzfeed.com/emaoconnor/the-man-who-secretly-taped-planned-parenthood-could-be?utm_term=.qv0pNy0Vx#.dlZNj0kEY
Too funny not to share:
Estleman, Loren D.. The Sundown Speech: An Amos Walker Novel (Amos Walker Novels) (p. 14). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.
nk (dbc370) — 6/19/2017 @ 5:16 amJust call them saboteurs
http://www.politico.com/story/2017/06/17/gop-obamacare-repeal-democrat-strategy-239668
narciso (9b6052) — 6/19/2017 @ 5:31 amDave,
Executive Privilege has two sources in the law: It is a doctrine that protects Presidential confidentiality as a matter of public policy, and it is a principle implied in the constitutionally mandated separation of powers. It has been generally recognized as a principle since George Washington, although Eisenhower coined the term Executive Privilege.
Not all scholars agree it exists but I think US vs Nixon resolved that it does. That case held that Presidential Executive Privilege exists but it is not an absolute right that may be outweighed by the “legitimate needs of the judicial process.” Specifically, the Court held that a court’s need for evidence in a criminal case might, in some cases, outweigh the President’s interest in asserting privilege:
DRJ (15874d) — 6/19/2017 @ 6:13 amIn short, US vs Nixon established that Executive Privilege exists and is due great deference by tge courtd, but it is not an absolute right. There may be limits or exceptions. In that case, the needs of a court in a criminal law case outweighed the President’s Constitutional and public policy interests in asserting Executive Privilege.
DRJ (15874d) — 6/19/2017 @ 6:19 amAs a footnote, my reading of US vs Nixon is that Executive Privilege exists as a matter of public policy (protecting confidentiality of executive discussions) and under the Constitution (protecting the President’s enumerated powers in national security, military, etc., which are owed special deference under the separation of powers doctrine).
US vs Nixon involved a criminal law case, not a national security or military matter, so it can be argued that the court held only the public policy doctrine of confidentiality applied — and it could be limited if there is a legitimate need by another branch of government for confidential Presidential communications. If so, then a President could still argue that the constitutionally-based Executive Privilege is an absolute right when it involves Executive Privilege asserted in connection with national security, military, etc., Presidential actions.
But I’m not a Constitutional scholar so take this opinion with a grain of salt.
DRJ (15874d) — 6/19/2017 @ 6:39 amWell, US v. Nixon was the executive privilege in the context of a criminal prosecution, after indictment, in a federal court. So, at the very least, the qualifier that the Court created is not yet ripe. We are still at the “trolling for whatever bites” stages of fishing expeditions by Congress and the special counsel. Far, far away from an indictment. I would say that US v. Nixon is distinguishable, at best helpful but not dispositive.
nk (dbc370) — 6/19/2017 @ 6:52 amThat’s hilarious, nk. I read some more of it online. The clients wanted a PI to promise not to carry a gun because they support gun control! I need to get that book. How did you find it?
DRJ (15874d) — 6/19/2017 @ 6:54 amChicago Public Library, DRJ. I’m a long time fan of Loren D. Estleman, more than 20 years, but until three days ago I only bought his westerns. The West attracts me a lot more than Detroit where his Amos Walker detective stories take place. I thought I’d give one from the library, The Lioness Is The Hunter, and I liked it, so I checked out this one too.
nk (dbc370) — 6/19/2017 @ 7:11 amDave (711345) — 6/19/2017 @ 12:33 am
It really was a throwaway remark, with the subtext at most being that if Comey didn’t, he might pardon Mike Flynn, but Comey repeatedly claimed in his testimony to several Senators that he considered it a direction, which he claimed in his prepared statement that he decided not to abide [by] except that, according to leaks by “law enforcement officials” to CNN on Feb 15, he did!
You could look it up:
In his prepared statement Comey wrote that he assumed that was all that the Michael Flynn request applied to:
This was reiterated the next day:
ttp://ktla.com/2017/02/16/fbi-not-expected-to-pursue-charges-against-michael-flynn-law-enforcement-officials/
Sammy Finkelman (8cff4d) — 6/19/2017 @ 8:25 amDCSCA (797bc0) — 6/19/2017 @ 3:30 am
Sammy Finkelman (8cff4d) — 6/19/2017 @ 8:32 amAnother tag not closed, or closed improperly, which equals nothing (this time blockquote)
That should have been:
I think what Donald Trump Jr. said was the opposite: That his father didn’t use circumlocutions like “I hope” when he wanted something done.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/trump-jr-tweets-president-stays-silent-comey-testimony-article-1.3231338
Sammy Finkelman (8cff4d) — 6/19/2017 @ 8:37 amTrump isn’t careful or accurate in his speech. Instead, he seems to say what he feels. His tweets may be more of the same. If so, they give us insight into how he feels at a given moment, but not something anyone can rely on. Unfortunately, since he’s the President, everything he says has meaning — even if it is unreliable or wrong.
DRJ (d35869) — 6/19/2017 @ 8:38 amComey tried to make it out that the reason that Trump wanted to speak to him privately was about the possible manufactured case against Mike Flynn (manufactured because they asked him questions when they already knew the answers) but the reason could have been because he wqanted to speak to him in secret about that day’s New York Times story and preventing leaks.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/14/us/politics/russia-intelligence-communications-trump.html
Comey did not write about this in his notes (he said he wanted to keep his notes unclassified) but he did go around and tell members of Congress that the story was almost entirely wrong.
Sammy Finkelman (b78e49) — 6/19/2017 @ 8:50 amthere are no memos, just whatever comey goldman richnan or wittes at the time.
narciso (9b6052) — 6/19/2017 @ 8:53 amBeldar @102.Thank you for taking a deeper dive into some of the many questions around the special counsel. I learn a lot and hope others do as well.
You’re probably right that the discussion is more about what “should” be done as opposed to what “can” be done lawfully. I’m sure I missed the finer legal points while trying to figure out whether this whole kerfuffle had a manufactured or legitimate basis and how any POTUS or DOJ should handle it regardless of political persuasion. McCarthy’s suggestion to tighten up the special counsel’s delegation makes a lot of sense and would clear up most of the fog surrounding this. His latest that impeachment is the proper method of presidential accountability and that Trump’s legal team is wrong to avoid discussing it also seems wise.
There has been too much lawfare and criminalization of politics for too long. Open-ended secret investigations and whispered accusations promoted and vouched for by anonymous officials and concerned politicians is doing more damage to our system of self-government than any amount of unwelcome foreign press reports promoted by bots and enthusiastic partisans. I’d like to see us get back to the rule of law and not the rule of innuendo.
crazy (d3b449) — 6/19/2017 @ 9:02 amI don’t think it’s accurate to say it’s manufactured if investigators asked Flynn questions to which they already knew the answers. That’s a good practice in an investigation because it lets the investigators test the credibility and truthfulness of the person bring questioned.
Perhaps you are confusing “manufactured” with entrapment, but that’s very different.
DRJ (15874d) — 6/19/2017 @ 9:06 amAfter delay Perry and Paxton you should know the noted if not the program.
narciso (9b6052) — 6/19/2017 @ 9:11 amyes yes we see this sort of goebbelsian sophistry all the time here
me i abjure it
happyfeet (28a91b) — 6/19/2017 @ 9:15 amWas this you today at another website, Mike K?
Michael K said…
“Every thing you point out is doubly true of Trump.”
Nonsense and that is why you people get no traction. The lies are too obvious these days.
Everybody knows everything about Trump. He has been a media figure for decades.
6/18/17, 8:26 AM
DRJ (15874d) — 6/18/2017 @ 6:16 pm
Of course it was me and you know that. Is this supposed to be some big insight ? Maybe you would prefer that I had qualified by adding, “But no one can read his mind. ”
What I meant and is still true, is that he has no secrets like Obama.
Mike K (f469ea) — 6/19/2017 @ 9:35 amYou are vastly overestimating the depth of his support even in the Republican Party, I believe. Regardless, you are definitely overestimating the depth of his support on the Hill. On the Hill, from the standpoint of individual GOP senators and members of Congress, they’re looking at 2018 and their own states and districts. In a red state that Trump lost in the primaries, there is no price for them to pay, and they’re not worried about being primaried from the right by some Trump revanchism wave. If he gets impeached and convicted, Trumpism shatters into a million pieces.
No, the country gets shattered into a million pieces.
Since I was here, anyway. I agree with you about the Republican Party, especially those full fledged members of the “Ruling Class” or would be members.
Mike K (f469ea) — 6/19/2017 @ 9:41 amExcept his taxes.
And the details of his loans through Deutsche Bank. Which seems to be the only lender who will do business with him, and recently pleaded to guilty to money laundering.
And all the things subject to numerous confidentiality agreements.
That there’s a lot of publicity about him is not that the same as he has no secrets.
nk (dbc370) — 6/19/2017 @ 9:49 am“There is NO support for their position that Trump was confirming the fact of an investigation — other than their interpretation that Trump was confirming the fact of an investigation.”
– shipwreckedcrew
I would be interested to see that statement mapped over to the textualism/intentionalism debates. How would a reasonable person interpret the actual words of Trump’s text?
Do you consider yourself a textualist, SWC?
Leviticus (efada1) — 6/19/2017 @ 10:00 amLOL at Mike K trying to have his cake and eat it too.
Leviticus (efada1) — 6/19/2017 @ 10:02 amShorts or skins people
https://pjmedia.com/trending/2017/06/19/trump-admin-begins-to-dismantle-obama-campus-rape-tribunals/
narciso (9b6052) — 6/19/2017 @ 10:03 amLOL at Mike K trying to have his cake and eat it too.
Leviticus (efada1)
I’m sure you mean something, even if only to yourself.
Trump is under attack by everyone outside his administration and by quite a few inside that he should have gotten rid of on day one.
Is that what you meant ?
Mike K (f469ea) — 6/19/2017 @ 10:05 amI would interpret his words not just by 140 characters in a tweet, but also by the context in which they were sent.
Was there an article in the WaPo the very morning of the tweet saying that anonymous sources have confirmed that Trump is under investigation for obstruction of justice?? Well, in fact, there was.
So, when Trump’s spokesman says “He wasn’t confirming anything, he was reacting to the news report that he was under investigation”, that’s the context that I put the comment in.
Had there not been such an article, then the comment would be open to continued debate.
But there was an article, so all the media has now is his comment in a vacuum, divorced from the actual context in which it was sent.
How’s this for textualism — “I did not stop beating my wife last night.”
Have I confirmed that I’m a wife beater?
shipwreckedcrew (56b591) — 6/19/2017 @ 10:06 amwe all know disgraced FBI mafioso Robert Mueller’s gonna do everything he can to fabricate a case against the president and anyone else he conceivably can
calling it an “investigation” or “inverstigating” does indeed put rather too fine a point on it
lying fbi trash gonna lie
this is how corrupt fbi bimbos like Mueller and Comey roll is all
do we really have to incessantly poodle-toot all the semantics
no we don’t
happyfeet (28a91b) — 6/19/2017 @ 10:09 amDACA is being altered (bounties?)?
http://www.yahoo.com/news/muslim-teen-killed-leaving-virginia-054812128.html
urbanleftbehind (5eecdb) — 6/19/2017 @ 10:14 am“Text”, within the meaning of textualism, is not the same as an internet text, I don’t think.
nk (dbc370) — 6/19/2017 @ 10:17 amshould have added this one as well to post 148 above:
http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/18/us/maryland-double-homicide-suspects-arrested/index.html
urbanleftbehind (5eecdb) — 6/19/2017 @ 10:18 am“text” refers to sleazy fbi interview memos written by random corrupt fbi bimbos that may or may not have any resemblance to what was said in the interview, which is never recorded
happyfeet (28a91b) — 6/19/2017 @ 10:19 am“Is that what you meant ?”
– Mike K
No, what I meant was that you tried to simultaneously claim that media is and is not a means to knowing someone, and DRJ called you out on it, and I think that’s funny.
Leviticus (efada1) — 6/19/2017 @ 10:24 am136. DRJ (15874d) — 6/19/2017 @ 9:06 am
Yes, but they didn’t have any other questions at the time for Flynn besides the ones they knew the answers to. Well, Come to think of it, there were some secondary questions about how the call was set up. They had (it’s been leaked but not officially confirmed) the complete transcript of the ccnversation that Flynn had with Kislyak which is most of what they asked him about, or ts where you had the possible crime.
Assessing Flynn’s credibility and truthfulness was important – though not for possible indictment, but for whether or not he should have that job as National Security Adviser (which wasn’t, strictly speaking, the FBI’s area of responsibility, but this is pretty important.)
But to make a criminal case out of that, when there was no underlying related crime? There were possible crimes, and big ones maybe, but not related to these conversations.
I think it hapepned more or less like this:
The whole thing started when President Obama imposed extra sanctions on Russia for their attempted interference in the election, including efforts, that got under way too late to have an effect, to interfere with the actual voting. (Hacking any votes themselves would be almost impossible to do, especially undetected. Nothing’s connected to the internet – you’d have to get to the voting material while they were in warehouses and then have it not detected by routine testing. They were quite a few steps away from anything like that. But closer was wrecking or confusing some of the voting by altering voter registration databases, or hacking the first reporting of the votes to make it look a little like it had been stolen,, or to help recounts get started. They were never able to get to first base with any of that. They started much too late.)
Part of the new sanctions was expelling some Russian “diplomats.” Obama and his entire team expected there to be retaliatory expulsions of Americans from Russia.
Then, Putin announces he’s not doing it and Trump tweets that was very smart of him.
So they asked for reports of conversation between important Russians and Americans. And were told he Kislyak had talked with someone. Or maybe that routinely reported. So anyway they asked who did Kislyak talk to? And Flynn’s name was unmasked. And then they asked what did they say. And they got a report and maybe atranscript of the conversation.
Now, anytime anyone looked at it they had to conclude the Logan Act (not negotiating with a foreign voter on behalf of the U.S. government when not in power) was not violated. Because Flynn had not made any promises – most likely because he was speaking on his own. He might have wanted to commit Trump to something but he hadn’t discussed it with Trump. So all he said was that if sanctions were imposed, it would be more difficult for Turmp to lift them. Some people might say he handled it superbly and prevented the retaliation in exchange for nothing.
Flynn did get fired after the second leak to the Washington Post – about the details of his conversation with Kislyak.
The first leak on Jan 12, was merely that a conversation had taken place. It was maybe speculated that it could have bene about sanctions but not specifically leaked that it was. Flynn got asked questions and denied that the subject of sanctions ever came up. Mike Pence was going to go on a Sunday morning talk show or two on Jan 15 and he was going to defend Mike Flynn, but because he already didn’t trust Mike Flynn (because Flynn had told him, or his people, that his son, Mike Flynn Jr. did not have a security cearance, when in fact he did) took the trouble to ask Mike Flynn personally and point blank if they had spoken about sanctions. And Flynn said no.
So Mike Pence went on TV and said the;d personally confirmed that with Mike Flynn.
So now the Obama holdovers and permanent people who know that it is a lie try to get Mike Flynn fired. And so they cooked up a criminal referral. The FBI goes into his office in the White House on January 24 and asks him about the conversation with Kislyak. Flynn denied talking about sanctions – mentions other subjects. Then they tell him: You know, we have a tape, or something close to that. Are you sure you want to stick with that – is that your final answer? And then Flynn says his memory isn’t all that good.
Two days later, a criminal referral is sent and forwarded by Acting Attorney General Sally Yates, with the claim that this is bad because the Russians could blackmail him. It’s more likely, of course, people in the U.S. intelligence community could blackmail him. Anyway, it goes to the White House counsel’s office.
…which looks at the transcript and concludes there is no violation of the Logan Act. And Donald Trump concludes that what Flynn did was all right, maybe even excellent. He ratifies what Flynn did on his own initiative. We’re only talking about this conversation, or series of conversations, of course.
And the Obama holdovers and people outside look, and they see that Flynn is not getting fired.
So there is a second leak to the Washington Post, much more clearly a felony, that says that in that conversation with Kislyak, Flynn talked about sanctions. Flynn gets asked about it. He can’t deny it like he did before, because he knows the FBI has a tape. So he engages in a lot of double talk and spin, with Spicer and Priebus and others, and within a few days he’s gone.
It’s not strictly entrapment, because nobody encouraged Flynn to lie. You might call it a sting operation – and a sting operation is a manufactured case. That’s what the FBI does with Islamic extremists whom they don’t have enough evidence to arrest.
Sammy Finkelman (8ac22c) — 6/19/2017 @ 10:25 am“How’s this for textualism — “I did not stop beating my wife last night.”
Have I confirmed that I’m a wife beater?”
– shipwreckedcrew
I don’t know – do you consider yourself a textualist?
Either way, why not just state “I have never touched my wife in violent way, ever”? Seems like that would be a far less stupid thing to say.
Leviticus (efada1) — 6/19/2017 @ 10:27 amDoes “context” extend to the assumption that Trump – the President of the United States, lest we forget it (and we would be forgiven for doing so) – might know better than the Washington Post whether he is or is not under investigation for obstruction of justice?
Lord knows he’s not shy about asking the DOJ about it, after all.
Leviticus (efada1) — 6/19/2017 @ 10:30 amis there anyone in the sleazy DoJ or at the corrupt FBI what has the credibility to make a believable statement about who or what is being investigated?
NO
they’re all poopy clowns
happyfeet (28a91b) — 6/19/2017 @ 10:34 am“since he’s the President, everything he says has meaning”
DRJ,
There isn’t much evidence supporting a contention Trump’s utterances have meaning wrt logic or rational thought. Intent is better measured by observing the degree of conditioned response among his supporters and opposition than attempting to discern anything regarding meaning in his communications. IMO – he’s doing a pretty good job in hammering home the wedge Obama selected to split the Democrat Party. The revolting prole segment isn’t particularly reliable over time but the Democrats have absolutely nothing on offer to incline their return.
IOW – he’s not trying to communicate anything to you or to me at all.
Rick Ballard (5397ef) — 6/19/2017 @ 10:38 amRick — I don’t think he’s trying to communicate anything to anyone with a lot of his texts. Its mostly just his commentary on events as they take place around him.
Having a comment represent a POV, and having a comment communicate factual information, are two different things.
shipwreckedcrew (56b591) — 6/19/2017 @ 10:42 amI think Trump’s tweet is more honestly viewed as an expression of exasperation and frustration, not a confirmation of any particular fact.
shipwreckedcrew (56b591) — 6/19/2017 @ 10:43 am134. narciso (9b6052) — 6/19/2017 @ 8:53 am
I think they are even supposed to be typewritten!
No, that was Mueller, in 2005:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/17/us/politics/james-comey-memos-fbi-culture.html
Mueller backed up Comey against Alberto Gonzales.
Mueller actually only backed him up – actually I’m not sure what he backed him up about. Maybe Ashcroft’s condition or that Comey had told him the same story he later told the House Judiciary Committee
See http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/17/washington/17inquire.html
They were typewritten in shorthand, (on a stenotype machine?) undated, and very heavily redacted.
Sammy Finkelman (8ac22c) — 6/19/2017 @ 10:58 amI would agree regarding the emotional venting aspect. Anyone who has ever seen a toddler banging a sippee cup on a high chair recognizes that aspect. I maintain, to the extent beyond the emotional venting, the intent is to stimulate and elicit conditioned response, particularly among the revolting proles. I don’t fault the intent, he knows his marks and there are plenty of them who have habitually voted Democrat.
Rick Ballard (5397ef) — 6/19/2017 @ 10:58 am@ shipwreckedcrew,
Piggybacking on Leviticus’s “far less stupid” point, why not instead be explicitly clear so that the risk of being misunderstood is minimized as much as possible?
Dana (023079) — 6/19/2017 @ 11:02 amperhaps this wife person is her own worst enemy
happyfeet (28a91b) — 6/19/2017 @ 11:03 amThe first one was written on a secure laptop Jan 6.
Yes, we don’t know when they were actually written. And very few people have seen them, and Comey seemed to want to be keeping them from the comittee.
I suppose Comey has some idea of how to prove it. They did exist by the middle of May. He also says he showed them to other people. And there might be copies in FBI files.
By the way, I suspect that in the May 11 leak, details from the Jan 6 meeting were put into the Jan 27 meeting. (I think his written testimony is more trthful than the leak, and things just make better sense that way)
Comey says he never did this with President Bush. Except that one was mentioned in a book. So he says that was actually a quick email. Two pages long??
http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2017/06/proof-that-james-comey-misled-the-senate-intelligence-committee.php
Sammy Finkelman (8ac22c) — 6/19/2017 @ 11:08 amNo, what I meant was that you tried to simultaneously claim that media is and is not a means to knowing someone, and DRJ called you out on it, and I think that’s funny.
Leviticus
One last time. Trump has no hidden history like Obama had, and still does for that matter.
On the other hand, nobody I know can read Trump’s mind.
You may think it cute to see a controversy where there isn’t one. I have never considered you a serious person so it doesn’t really matter.
I had considerable respect for DRJ until she seems to have gotten caught up in the NeverTrump hysteria.
Victor Davis Hanson seems to see it more my way.
if Republicans cannot act when they control both the Congress and the White House, then what good are they anyway as a party? And who, then, will shape the future trajectory of the country—a minority Democratic party, street theater, the likes of Maxine Waters and Stephen Colbert, Jeff Bezos and Mark Zuckerberg, campus bullies, the media, the universities, or Hollywood’s popular culture?
Mike K (f469ea) — 6/19/2017 @ 11:09 am162 — well in the case of Trump, he’s got a smartphone in his hand, a thought in his head, and 140 characters to work with. So he types it out and hits send.
And you want to parse the language. Talk about dancing angels and a pin.
shipwreckedcrew (56b591) — 6/19/2017 @ 11:23 amHe’s the President of the United States of America. Of course we want to “parse the language.” How low have our standards become, that incompetence becomes an excuse rather than a disqualification?
Leviticus (efada1) — 6/19/2017 @ 11:30 amI love the term “Fredocons.”
Now, pulling off the soft coup is going to be harder than they think. The establishment has not thought this out. They sort of assume that if they squelch Trump then everything somehow just goes back to them being in unchallenged control. Wrong.
Mueller can’t indict Trump – that stupid Constitution, always getting in the way! No, the goal is for Mueller and his crack team of committed liberal activist lawyers to generate some head-shaking, tsk-tsk, more-in-sorrow-than-in-anger, report claiming Trump “obstructed” the probe into Hillary’s Trump/Russia collusion lie that even the liberals reluctantly acknowledge never happened.
Mike K (f469ea) — 6/19/2017 @ 12:30 pmDRJ @ 136 I see your point. I was thinking about the chicken and egg question of where the whole Russia question started rather than simply the obstruction of Flynn when I wrote that and whether this all grew from legitimate questions arising from normal foreign and domestic collection or excessive curiosity from the last administration about the political opposition contacts and communications.
As far as the Flynn question is concerned, McCarthy’s point that “law-enforcement is not supposed to subject a person to the processes of a criminal investigation absent a good faith belief that a crime may have occurred. It is abusive to interrogate people, not to uncover a reasonably suspected crime, but to create a new crime” seems persuasive.
We all want to know what happened and punish any guilty parties as soon as we find out what actual crimes, if any, were committed. Combining the counter-intel probe and the prosecution of unknown crimes under an unaccountable outside party seems like the problem not the solution.
crazy (d3b449) — 6/19/2017 @ 12:41 pm@132. Trump isn’t careful or accurate in his speech. Instead, he seems to say what he feels
And that speaks to a core element of competence and the responsibilities which come with the job.
Neither was Nixon when the doors were closed, his hair down and de-Brylcreemed— and the tapes were recording. Even Halderman- who was one of the few aware of the taping system- had to verbally nudge Nixon occasionally with ‘careful’ to mind what he was saying to others unaware they were being taped. But when communicating to the country in a public forum he at least made an effort to sound coherent and not like a bowl of Campbell’s alphabet soup spilled out on the table.
@159. I think Trump’s tweet is more honestly viewed as an expression of exasperation and frustration, not a confirmation of any particular fact.
Except they’re designated ‘official statements,‘ per his press secretary, from the President. Trump tweets to connect with what he believes to be his base; his followers– those who know what ‘covfefe’ means. It’s become a fool’s errand.
___________
Today’s Beldar The Bitter ‘Watergate, Watergate, Watergate’ Words Of Wonder:
“I had no prior knowledge of the Watergate break-in; I neither took part in nor knew about any of the subsequent coverup activities; I neither authorized nor encouraged subordinates to engage in illegal or improper campaign tactics.” – Richard Nixon, televised Presidential Address, August 15, 1973
DCSCA (797bc0) — 6/19/2017 @ 12:48 pmThere isn’t any obstruction because there is no underlying criminal act, fonfvme a statute he was said to have biloated.
narciso (9b6052) — 6/19/2017 @ 12:53 pmThere isn’t any obstruction because there is no underlying criminal act, fonfvme a statute he was said to have violated.
narciso (9b6052) — 6/19/2017 @ 12:58 pmIt seems like there doesn’t need to be a statute that was said to be violated. Maybe that’s a bad law. It is only necessary to obstruct an investigation.
Sammy Finkelman (6f9f42) — 6/19/2017 @ 1:02 pm“I had no prior knowledge of the Watergate break-in; I neither took part in nor knew about any of the subsequent coverup activities; I neither authorized nor encouraged subordinates to engage in illegal or improper campaign tactics.” – Richard Nixon, televised Presidential Address, August 15, 1973
That was true.
Although one day, June 23, 1972, he did endorse a cover-up proposal, that never was carried out. That was to cover up infromation that was already known – the connection of the burglars to the Committee to re-Elect the President by getting the CIA to tell the FBI that something involving them might be revealed if they pursued some lead about money. The CIA declined to do so.
Nixon also, in March 1973, endorsed paying hush money to E Howard Hunt, but that was to cover up the break-in into Ellsberg’s psychiatrist’s office, which Nixon thought was a national security matter and not illegal, but politically controversial. John Dean asked Nixon to approve it after he had already turned over the money! He didn’t say Hunt should be paid to cover up what he knew about Watergate because Dean knew Nixon wasn’t interested in covering up anything about the Watergate break-in.
Sammy Finkelman (6f9f42) — 6/19/2017 @ 1:12 pm@174. Except it’s not. But you go on believing it is, Sammy.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 6/19/2017 @ 1:13 pmAnd while he didn’t give prior approval to illegal or improper campaign tactics, what was the point of appointing Donald Segretti to do “dirty tricks?”
And G. Gordon Liddy was put in charge of “intelligence.”
Sammy Finkelman (6f9f42) — 6/19/2017 @ 1:15 pmDCSCA (797bc0) — 6/19/2017 @ 1:13 pm
No, actually every word of that is true, except maybe for encouraging subordinates to engage in improper campaign tactics (which did not include the Watergate break-in) and mayeb didn’t include anything specific, but the Canuck letter was not sent without some kind of encouragement.
Sammy Finkelman (6f9f42) — 6/19/2017 @ 1:18 pmLeviticus (efada1) — 6/19/2017 @ 10:30 am
tehy woudn’t tell him and he kows not to ask except through his counsel.
Sammy Finkelman (6f9f42) — 6/19/2017 @ 1:20 pmSammy:
“I neither took part in nor knew about any of the subsequent cover-up activities” – that’s a lie- as the tapes proved.
“I neither authorized nor encouraged subordinates to engage in illegal or improper campaign tactics.” – that’s a lie- as the tapes proved.
“I had no prior knowledge of the Watergate break-in” – that remains uncertain, but the climate he created, the resources and assets made available for it to occur remain a certainty.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 6/19/2017 @ 1:22 pmLeviticus – sure, you can. But then you look like an idiot when he tells you what he meant, and you’ve got nothing to support your claim for an alternative interpretation.
shipwreckedcrew (56b591) — 6/19/2017 @ 1:27 pm“Sure I can” what? I’m reviewing the questions I’ve asked, and none of them has anything to do with “can” or “can’t.”
Setting that aside, are you telling me that I should take Donald Trump’s subsequent statements about his meaning at face value, without regard to the words he actually uses? Like Humpty-Dumpty – “when I use a word, it means just what I choose it to mean – neither more nor less”?
The “alternative interpretation,” for a textualist, would be the actual words he used.
This is why I’m asking about textualism, and whether you consider yourself a textualist.
Leviticus (efada1) — 6/19/2017 @ 1:40 pmSo, what’s not clear to me, SWC, is if the White House Press Sectary, upon being asked about Trump’s tweets, says, “The president is president of the United States,” Spicer said, “so they are considered official statements by the president of the United States,” then wouldn’t it stand to reason that the president typing out 140 characters is in essence, making an official statemen?
Spicer obviously contradicts the WH company line in this, but that just speaks to the problem of having a president prolifically tweet without a serious filter of discernment or discretion in place. And it will inevitably lead to confusion, as in the focus of this post. The WH and especially the president should expect this.
Dana (023079) — 6/19/2017 @ 1:47 pmNixon also, in March 1973, endorsed paying hush money to E Howard Hunt, but that was to cover up the break-in into Ellsberg’s psychiatrist’s office
One of Nixon’s worst weaknesses was saying things that he thought better of later, I’m reading Buchanan’s book about him. A great quote about Watergate was “Some sonoafabitch heard him say something walking out of the Oval Office and went and did it.”
Nixon also worried about his staffers’ families, something that Clinton or Obama would never do. Some of the money he gave them was to support the families when the salaries ended.
On Inauguration Day, Nancy Reagan called her Secret Service guy by his name. Roslyn Carter said to her, “You know their names ?” Nixon was a brooder and that was what got him.
Mike K (f469ea) — 6/19/2017 @ 2:01 pmIn response to your 167 about wanting to parse the language — all 140 characters of it.
I’m not a “textualist” when there’s a minimal amount of text to work with, and I know there is a ton of related info that gives context to the comment.
Others just want to ignore the context and derive meaning from 140 characters. I don’t find that to be of much use.
shipwreckedcrew (56b591) — 6/19/2017 @ 2:03 pmMy anonymous sources tell me Bob Mueller isn’t investigating Obama (yet)
Neo (d1c681) — 6/19/2017 @ 2:15 pm“I’m not a “textualist” when there’s a minimal amount of text to work with, and I know there is a ton of related info that gives context to the comment.”
– shipwreckedcrew
Fair enough. I appreciate the answer.
Leviticus (efada1) — 6/19/2017 @ 2:37 pmDave, you may be — probably are! — a terrific physics prof.
But more than half of what you think you know, or at least what you write here, about the law is pathetically wrong. DRJ has undertaken to point out just a few of the things you’ve gotten absolutely wrong. I feel no further such obligation.
Likewise, if you wish to continue to induce laughter from the lawyers, or better educated laymen, when you give us your … unique legal perspectives, I feel no further obligation to warn you of the likely consequences (which I concede are trivial, having only to do with your reputation or lack thereof as an anonymous commenter on this blog).
But when you affirmatively misstate the law, I’ll probably at least sometimes continue to point that out, and not in terms that you find flattering. Govern yourself accordingly, if you so care to, or not.
Beldar (fa637a) — 6/19/2017 @ 2:53 pmI’ll retract the hyperbole in #187. I haven’t counted or weighed your posts, and won’t attempt to verify the “half” estimation. Let’s just say “often” and leave it at that. Cheers.
Beldar (fa637a) — 6/19/2017 @ 2:58 pmDave, I’ll make one more try. I’m utterly unwilling to try to reeducate you about the law of principal-agent, the laws of fiduciary duty, the laws of privilege generally, or the laws of Executive Privilege specifically.
But I’ll take a moment to home in on one of your presumptions that makes your arguments ridiculous, if you’ll answer one preliminary question:
(a) Could the State of Texas strip me of my law license if I deliberately revealed the substance of a privileged communication? Assume I was acting on my own and without consent or knowledge of my client, and under no compulsion from a judge who’s heard and resolved my client’s potential privilege objections first.
Or:
(b) Do you believe instead that I’d have a First Amendment defense that would save me from losing my license?
Beldar (fa637a) — 6/19/2017 @ 3:16 pmMike K,
I respect your medical ability and experience, and always will. But it pains me when you claim I am insulted simply because you disagree with me. I don’t have a problem with disagreement. I have a problem with you linking Kurt Schlichter and calling people like me a Fredocon simply because we disagree with you about Donald Trump.
I realize Trump has made it popular to call people who disagree with him by insulting names, but that is not disagreement. It is rude and disrespectful, and the perfect way to make people who might agree with you stop listening.
DRJ (15874d) — 6/19/2017 @ 3:21 pmDave: the laws of physics rule supreme over the polarons and quarks spun from unstable ideologues; in our universe, 1+1=2, not 11.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 6/19/2017 @ 3:21 pmcrazy,
My comment about the use of the word “manufactured” was for Sammy, but I appreciate your ideas and am glad you want to discuss this.
DRJ (15874d) — 6/19/2017 @ 3:22 pmDCSCA,
So Twitter is Trump’s preferred venue to vent?
How sad that we elected someone who has to vent in public, sometimes every day, to maintain his sanity and/or his connection with his base. What you have described is no different than a teenager and his gang of followers — who have been around for decades. Only the medium has changed.
DRJ (15874d) — 6/19/2017 @ 3:31 pmOMG. Jared Speaks!!!
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/jared-kushner-speaks-washington-takes-notice-48142301
And now, with cape and cowl back from the cleaners, he’s flying off to the Middle East to make peace.
‘Here I come to save the day! That means that Mighty Mouse is on the way!’ – ‘Mighty Mouse’ Terrytoons, 1942
DCSCA (797bc0) — 6/19/2017 @ 3:32 pm@193- Seems so, DRJ– and unfortunately they’re ‘official statements’. At least Truman vented by cussing and wrote poison pen letters- -then stuck them in a drawer. Can’t picture Jefferson using Twitter given the economy of words; Franklin might have taken to it better for ‘stitch in time’ rhymes.
‘A countryman between two lawyers is like a fish between two cats.’ – Benj. Franklin
_____________
Breaking- NBC News reports Spicer May Move Out Of W.H. Spokesperson Role
“Mamma-Mia, that-za-Spicey meat-ta-ball.’ – Alka Seltzer TV commercial, 1976
DCSCA (797bc0) — 6/19/2017 @ 3:42 pmswc:
Trump is the President. You can’t act like his tweets are things he says in the bathroom when he’s mad at the world. But even if we have a special Trump Tweet Rule, he’s said the same free-wheeling things in his campaign and now in the White House.
At what point do we get to say to Donald Trump, “Your words matter”?
DRJ (15874d) — 6/19/2017 @ 3:49 pmYou certainly know how to bring back TV and advertising memories, DCSCA.
DRJ (15874d) — 6/19/2017 @ 3:50 pmcrazy,
You were right, it was your comment I was responding to. Sorry for the confusion and thanks for the reply!
DRJ (15874d) — 6/19/2017 @ 3:55 pmNo worries DRJ. I don’t know how you keep track of all the different comment threads as well as you do. I appreciate your efforts to keep me from embarrassing myself too much!
crazy (d3b449) — 6/19/2017 @ 4:14 pmTrump says thins that he doesn’t really think are true in his tweets. You can tell.
So of course he didn’t know for a fact that he’s being investigated and the question is ridiculous. It also seems like he’d like to maintain, for most purposes, that he’s not under investigation.
But more to the point, the argument was faulty. And not just because it is not actually Rosenstein who is, or would be, investigating him.
It’s because Rosenstein didn’t really tell him to fire Comey – Trump wanted to do this, and, having found out what Rosenstein thought, arranged for his advice to be written up.
Of course, it’s also true that that firing didn’t and couldn’t stop any fair investigation – Trump may have worried about an unfair one – unless he named a new FBI Director who would stop a good investigation, and Trump doesn’t know anybody who would do that for him.
Sammy Finkelman (8ac22c) — 6/19/2017 @ 4:25 pmAnother article about the Comey “I-only-wrote-memos-about-Trump” lie:
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/attorney-james-comey-may-have-misled-senate-committee/article/2625634#!
Sammy Finkelman (8ac22c) — 6/19/2017 @ 4:28 pm196 –DRJ:
Trump is the same guy now that he was on Nov. 7 — the day before he was elected.
There’s nothing magically transformative about winning an election — even an election for POTUS.
I believe that history will reflect that Trump will have transformed the Office of POTUS more than the Office of POTUS has transformed Trump.
Whether that’s good or bad awaits the happening of events not yet known.
shipwreckedcrew (56b591) — 6/19/2017 @ 4:31 pmcalling people like me a Fredocon simply because we disagree with you about Donald Trump.
I didn’t mean you and I ‘m sorry you took it that way. I use that term for GOP Congressmen who think they can play to the left and survive 2018.
I do think that quite a few of you here, especially Patrick, have gone off the rails about Trump.
I think he is crude and a little bit crazy to think he can take on the Deep State, which I am certain exists. I am a fan of Angelo Codevillo and have met him and read his books. I had friends who were orthopedic surgeons in DC for many years and I know all those people go to the same cocktail parties and the same clubs.
That is an inbred society and only a rather crazy, and rich, and fearless character like Trump would dare take them on.
I wish him well and doubt the Administrative State will be able to destroy him but I know they will very very hard and I don’t think very many of them care about what happens to the country while they try to do it.
Mike K (f469ea) — 6/19/2017 @ 4:32 pmYeah, that could be because you’re making shit up about what I think, Mike K.
Like this comment of yours:
I asked you if you were talking about me, but you never responded. But I think it’s pretty clear that 1) you were talking about me (I saw nobody else you could logically have been addressing) and that 2) you were totally 100% misrepresenting my views. So, having offered you the chance to say you were not talking to me, which you declined, I am now going to let you have it.
The post you were responding to said, in plain English: “Frankly, it’s a policy result I don’t like.” The policy result I was saying I didn’t like was the striking down of Donald Trump’s executive order.
So, you either lied about what I was saying in the post, or — far more likely — you read the post with the lazy eye of a Trumper, who eschews truth, detail, and facts, and goes straight for the ignorant, ill-informed insult . . . your approach of choice for the last several months.
You owe me an apology. Being a Trumper, you won’t give me one.
But it doesn’t change the fact that you owe me one. And that you ought to — OUGHT to, I say — be embarrassed.
Patterico (c60007) — 6/19/2017 @ 5:09 pmThere’s no style of comment I love more than the “”So [insert made-up shit here]. Got it” style of comment.
“So, Mike K, you believe Trump should be given the powers of a dictator. Got it.”
“So, Mike K, Donald Trump can literally do no wrong in your eyes. Got it.”
“So, Mike K, all leftists should be summarily shot, is your opinion. Got it.”
Yay this is fun
Patterico (c60007) — 6/19/2017 @ 5:12 pm@202- Trump is the same guy now that he was on Nov. 7- the day before he was elected.
Except now he’s under investigation.
Or is he?
Depends on when you read’em: ‘Tweet’-le-dee or ‘Tweet’-le-dumb.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 6/19/2017 @ 5:15 pm@17 Apropos of a news spot I just heard:
Old US Navy: Berthing Spaces
New US Navy: Birthing Spaces
Either way, sounds like ‘bunk.’
DCSCA (797bc0) — 6/19/2017 @ 5:19 pmthe lazy eye of a Trumper, who eschews truth, detail, and facts, and goes straight for the ignorant, ill-informed insult . . . your approach of choice for the last several months.
Lovely. The calm reasonable Patrick.
Got it.
Mike K (f469ea) — 6/19/2017 @ 5:24 pmI’m going to ask again because I would sincerely like to know:
What’s not clear to me, SWC, is if the White House Press Sectary, upon being asked about Trump’s tweets, says, “The president is president of the United States,” Spicer said, “so they are considered official statements by the president of the United States,” then wouldn’t it stand to reason that the president typing out 140 characters is in essence, making an official statement?
Spicer obviously contradicts the WH company line in this, but that just speaks to the problem of having a president prolifically tweet without a serious filter of discernment or discretion in place. And it will inevitably lead to confusion, as in the focus of this post. The WH and especially the president should expect this.
The reason I’m asking again is, if the Press Secretary is claiming that these are official statements, and Trump himself has said that tweeting is a way for him to avoid the fake media (who presumably lie about that he says/means/did/does, thus he would tweet what he means/what happened/tell the truth???), then shouldn’t we ascribe to his tweets the value that he and his press secty do?
The point being, this becomes a scrambled mess because in one situation we are supposed to take one tweet as an official statement, but quite possibly, when it gets him trouble or there is an unintended consequences, another subsequent tweet is not an official statement and we are to take it as such. How are we to know the difference in tweets?? Or do we wait for it to be something that someone blows up over, and then wait and see if there is denial??
It seems to be me that the seriousness and weight of what the POTUS says should be of importance, and not be written off when convenient. And it further seems to me that a sitting president would not want to play games of confusion with voters when there is so very, very much at stake.
Dana (023079) — 6/19/2017 @ 5:26 pmI swing by occasionally to see if the neverTrump temperature has declined.
I don’t read all the comments unless something catches my eye.
So, you were opposed to the court striking down his EO ? If so, I misunderstood and apologize.
Mike K (f469ea) — 6/19/2017 @ 5:26 pmyou think mueller the corrupt poopy fbi clown is actually a better choice to do fake investigation all up in it than the average corrupt poopy fbi clown cause he went to princeton with brooke shields got it
happyfeet (28a91b) — 6/19/2017 @ 5:29 pmWise words … but we can hope that stepping into an office like President and seeing/dealing with what Presidents have to do will cause Trump to become more humble, more serious about informing himself, and more willing to listen to other opinions. It hasn’t happened yet but it could. It’s a job that will bring out the worst or the best in people.
DRJ (15874d) — 6/19/2017 @ 5:32 pmFunny how that works:
http://www.judicialwatch.org/press-room/press-releases/judicial-watch-obama-nsc-advisor-susan-rices-unmasking-material-obama-library
narciso (d1f714) — 6/19/2017 @ 5:34 pmcorrupt poopy fbi clown MUELLER: My love there’s only you in my life
corrupt poopy fbi clown COMEY: The only thing that’s right robert!
corrupt poopy fbi clown MUELLER: My first love you’re every breath that I take
corrupt poopy fbi clown COMEY: You every step I make robert!
corrupt poopy fbi clown MUELLER: And I IIIII – I want to share all my love with you
corrupt poopy fbi clown COMEY: No one else will do robert!
happyfeet (28a91b) — 6/19/2017 @ 5:38 pmAttorney/Client privilege is not Executive Privilege. They may have superficial similarities, but barring some authority that equates the two (which you have effectively claimed, but never cited), I don’t see how your statements about the particulars of Attorney/Client privilege are material to Executive Privilege. Rather, they are question-begging.
You said
I asked you to cite the authority that imposes this burden on Comey, as a private citizen no longer employed by the government, who has never been in an attorney/client relationship with Trump, and you responded by reciting irrelevancies about your law license.
Had Comey, as FBI director, been subpoenaed to testify about their private conversations, I understand clearly that the president could have asserted executive privilege and attempted to prevent *compulsion* of Comey’s testimony about a private conversation by another branch of government. As DRJ kindly explained, and as I gathered myself from reading US vs. Nixon and Nixon vs. Sirica, (very broadly) the president can prevent compulsion of testimony about privileged discussions when there is not some other compelling interest to require it.
But that is not the relevant scenario here. Congress, or the Courts, compelling an executive branch officer to reveal private conversations with the president raises obvious separation of powers issues, but how does a private citizen voluntarily exercising their First Amendment rights raise any separation of powers issue? It doesn’t, because it can’t.
So I’ll ask one more time:
Where is it written down that Trump can decide what unclassified conversations Comey, as a private citizen, is and is not allowed to talk about of his own volition?
Your evasiveness on this simple question leads me to wonder if you are simply citing your own opinion as if it were settled law.
Dave (711345) — 6/19/2017 @ 5:44 pmlol
womanish and corrupt fbi p.o.s. james comey has a boatload of experience deciding which illegally-obtained conversations of American citizens deemed political enemies by obama can be widely discussed
happyfeet (28a91b) — 6/19/2017 @ 5:53 pmDo you read the POSTS that you choose to react to in a snide manner?
I said I disagreed with the policy decision IN THE POST.
Also, no, I was not opposed to the Court striking down the EO because I believed it was required to as a matter of law.
These are not difficult distinctions — if you’re actually trying to understand someone’s point of view, that is. Which, you are clearly not.
Patterico (c60007) — 6/19/2017 @ 5:56 pmI swing by your comments occasionally to see if your insults, unfailing devotion to Donald Trump regardless of the merits, and persistent mischaracterizations of other people’s positions have abated.
No improvement yet…
Patterico (c60007) — 6/19/2017 @ 5:58 pmOne can disagree with a court’s policy decision and yet agree that the court got the law right.
Now go back and re-read my comments with that short civics lesson in mind, and try again.
I mean, I appreciate the apology and all, but since it was for the wrong thing, I can’t accept it. As nice a gesture as it may have been…
Patterico (c60007) — 6/19/2017 @ 6:00 pmWhere is it written down that Trump can decide what unclassified conversations Comey, as a private citizen, is and is not allowed to talk about of his own volition?
The same place that says CIA agents can’t write their memoirs until forty years after they die? There are statutes, regulations, court decisions, and employment agreements, that govern the conduct of people in government jobs even after they leave those jobs.
As for executive privilege, DRJ did give us that education Beldar is referring to, with relevant excerpts from US v. Nixon. Testimonial privilege is pretty much the same, whether it’s attorney-client, priest-penitent, husband-wife, or executive. The difference that makes a difference is what government interest overcomes it, and the parts of US v. Nixon that DRJ posted tell us that about executive privilege.
nk (dbc370) — 6/19/2017 @ 6:00 pmBeldar@187
DRJ pointed out nothing that I’d “gotten absolutely wrong”.
DRJ@124
That nice summary agrees exactly with what I took away from reading US vs. Nixon and Nixon vs. Sirica. I have never denied, even for a moment, that executive privilege is a thing. The two Watergate cases dealt with the question before the courts at the time: was Nixon obligated to comply with the subpoena of his tapes?
They don’t say anything even remotely resembling this, though:
Dave (711345) — 6/19/2017 @ 6:01 pmThat is a comment on my policy view, not on my view of the law.
And I very, very, very plainly said I disagreed with the policy resulting from the court’s decision.
And I said so in a POST (not a comment) that YOU were reacting to (snidely).
My view is that someone making a snide comment about a post has a moral obligation to read the post. And if the post actually said the complete opposite of what the snide commenter claims it said, the snide commenter owes the blogger an apology.
It doesn’t mean the blogger will get one. But he is owed one.
Patterico (c60007) — 6/19/2017 @ 6:03 pmThe problem with this whole edifice is that its made of sand and just as permanent, the way I see it cimey us guilty of proferring false evidence like with the dossier and the crowdstrike report in order to secure a visa warrant on trumps campaign abc tradition staff.
narciso (d1f714) — 6/19/2017 @ 6:05 pmDana: So Spicer says something in response to a question, and Trump is bound by that? Spicer says they are “official statements”, and forever after Trump’s tweets are etched in stone as policy or admissions? Why?
Tweeting without discernment or discretion is a problem.
That doesn’t mean his tweet about being “under investigation” was meant BY HIM as a confirmation of a fact, rather than a statement of exasperation — HIS EXASPERATION — which in context it most clearly was.
The parlor game being played here is the journos saying “He confirmed he’s under investigation”. His response to their parlor game was, “You assumed that’s what I meant.”
He then provided a meaning that had context — the context of a newspaper article that same day CLAIMING he was under investigation based on anonymous sourcing.
In context, Trump’s explanation makes more sense to me that the pundit’s assumption.
shipwreckedcrew (56b591) — 6/19/2017 @ 6:06 pmI become not-calm when someone misrepresents my views in a snide manner. I never claimed I don’t.
But I was initially calm and reasonable. I asked, in the other post: “were you talking to me? Surely not!”
You did not respond. I thought, having made a snotty attack on me, you’d stick around to defend your position if I responded. But you didn’t.
Then, in this thread, you repeated a snide charge which in my view incorporated your misrepresentation of my post. So I let you have it, and I never promised to be calm under these circumstances.
You are arguing in the manner of a leftist troll here, Mike K, serially misunderstanding/misrepresenting your opponent’s position in a snide tone. You’re getting precisely the respect you’ve earned given your behavior.
I wouldn’t respond like this in response to a single snot-nosed remark, of course. This has been building up for a while and you know it. And you are responsible for it.
Patterico (c60007) — 6/19/2017 @ 6:08 pmDRJ — I think it has registered already. He’s already made the comment that its a lot tougher than he thought it was going to be.
Look at how 8 years of the Presidency aged the last 3 occupants. Clinton, Bush, and Obama were all relatively young men when first elected. And they aged far more than 8 years during their term in office.
I think Trump today is much more chastened and aware of the opposition than he was when he entered office. I think he understands much better that POTUS is not an emperor. “The Art of the Deal” isn’t enough to succeed.
shipwreckedcrew (56b591) — 6/19/2017 @ 6:09 pmThe problem is, what is workable screening regimen that could get past the 9th or 4th circus, none I can see because they don’t follow the law,, there was one judge in the third who did nit have any problem with this very narrow pause, but he is ignored because it does no good tip consider the law when it diesnt serve purpose. This is what Obama lectured at the university of Chicago.
narciso (d1f714) — 6/19/2017 @ 6:10 pmYa do?
What’s your evidence for that, exactly?
I assert that Trump is not chastened at all but is instead the same ignorant unchastened blowhard he has been his whole life.
I think there’s a lot more evidence for my position than yours, quite frankly. To the point where reading your quoted language made me laugh, out loud and mordantly.
Patterico (c60007) — 6/19/2017 @ 6:13 pmand sleazy corrupt Mueller’s number one job is to cover that up
that’s why they needed a sleazy corrupt ex-FBI p.o.s. to take the special prosecutor job
happyfeet (28a91b) — 6/19/2017 @ 6:14 pm228 — Well there’s a honest and thoughtful response.
Thanks for stopping by.
shipwreckedcrew (56b591) — 6/19/2017 @ 6:20 pmI remember what they put Ken Starr through. The mildest was showing him as Elmer Fudd going after the wascawy wabbit. Now it’s Mueller’s turn from people with different political viewpoints but the same level of decency.
Dave might appreciate this: There is no such thing as gravity. All masses suck.
nk (dbc370) — 6/19/2017 @ 6:20 pmIf Comey signed the FBI employment agreement, then he may have violated it.
(If he was really clever/sneaky, as director he presumably could have authorized disclosure of his memos to the cut-out before being fired though…)
Dave (711345) — 6/19/2017 @ 6:21 pm“a sitting president would not want to play games of confusion with voters when there is so very, very much at stake.”
Dana,
What does his gibberish put at stake? April Glaspie’s befuddlement of Saddam Hussein into believing he had the OK to invade Kuwait through the ambiguous usage of “no position” is an example of the type of serious error caused by lack of clarity but I seriously doubt whether Trump’s paroxysms of gibberish stimulate much more than derision.
Why should any reader put more thought into someone’s writing than the monkey who typed it?
Rick Ballard (5397ef) — 6/19/2017 @ 6:22 pmDana: So Spicer says something in response to a question, and Trump is bound by that? Spicer says they are “official statements”, and forever after Trump’s tweets are etched in stone as policy or admissions? Why?
Then Trump needs to say that Spicer got it wrong. Or at least admit most tweets are spontaneous combustions, and not thought out policy unless labelled as official statements.
kishnevi (4a421b) — 6/19/2017 @ 6:26 pmCould you amass the body of evidence demonstrating that Trump is chastened?
As evidence for my position I present: Trump’s Twitter account.
What do you have in response?
Patterico (c60007) — 6/19/2017 @ 6:27 pmAnd there might be a provision in that agreement, or in a regulation or statute, or in an administrative court or other court opinion, that says that he is bound by such other rules as are found in employee manuals, handbooks, and guidelines. I am not an expert on government employment law, so I can’t tell you for sure.
nk (dbc370) — 6/19/2017 @ 6:27 pmOT
I assume at least some of the people here are among the 198 million
http://gizmodo.com/gop-data-firm-accidentally-leaks-personal-details-of-ne-1796211612/amp
kishnevi (4a421b) — 6/19/2017 @ 6:29 pmComey doesn’t care about due process, this uS proven time and again, process crimes can be spring on a,target like Stewart or quattrine he brought the totches,to the whose,us. Atty kerfluffle in the end what came of it. His behavior on March 10, 2004 is another matter. As was that of his accomplice Jack goldsmith, who runs the lawfare site. That permitted Ben wittes subterfuge.
narciso (d1f714) — 6/19/2017 @ 6:36 pmI imagine everyone who is registered to vote, kishnevi.
You know what my complaint today, is? The internet with all that personal information about everyone, in secured and unsecured databases, has ruined the private detective business. The only thing that’s left for a gumshoe to do is go around with a camera to catch a guy dancing the lambada in a whiplash case.
nk (dbc370) — 6/19/2017 @ 6:37 pmThere is some truth in both SWC’s and Patrick’s positions.
Trump, being utterly ignorant, obviously *was* under the illusion that being President and wishing his rainbows-and-unicorns agenda into place would be effortless. In this one, singular, instance Trump even admitted that he was mistaken about that.
But he is incapable of seeing himself as a contributing factor to any problem. Everything is everybody else’s fault, and he is a perpetual victim. His attitude seems to be that if something requires actual effort on his part, then to hell with it. He’ll happily keep signing executive orders, as long as they don’t get in the way of his tee time, but that’s about it.
Dave (711345) — 6/19/2017 @ 6:39 pmthere’s far more evidence that corrupt womanish Comey obstructed justice in the hillary “matter” than there is of Mr. Trump even getting in the ballpark
i know it
you know it
and believe you me sleazy fbi mafioso Robert Mueller knows it
happyfeet (28a91b) — 6/19/2017 @ 6:39 pmI was not opposed to the Court striking down the EO because I believed it was required to as a matter of law.
These are not difficult distinctions — if you’re actually trying to understand someone’s point of view, that is. Which, you are clearly not.
OK. So I was right. Nice of you to acknowledge.
Mike K (f469ea) — 6/19/2017 @ 6:41 pmHow about you respond to the remaining blindspot in your analysis endorsing the 9th Circuit’s decision on the EO.
As I have posted here several times — with not a single responsive legal analysis having been made by you despite several invitations to do so — the “sequencing” argument upon which you have based your view doesn’t take into account the later amendment of 1152 which added the language now found in 1152(a)(1)(B), which provides that the “non-discrimination” language in 1152(a)(1)(A) shall not be construed to limit the discretion of the Sec. of State to determine the procedures for processing immigrant visas.
The factual background is that the new language passed by Congress was in response to the D.C. Circuit’s decision in a case (name escapes me right now) where Vietnamese nationals were not allowed to submit visa applications through the US Embassey in Hong Kong, even though other nationalities living in Hong Kong were allowed to do so. The DC Cir. found that the rule requiring Vietnamese nationals to return to Vietnam and submit their applications through the US consulate there discriminated against them based on nationality, in violation of 1152(a)(1).
In response, Congress amended 1152(a)(1), placing the non-discrimination language in (a)(1)(A), and inserting new language in (a)(1)(B), stating that the non-discrimination language — including national origin discrimination — did not apply to the Sec. of State’s discretion in determining procedures. In other words, the Sec. of State COULD DISCRIMINATE BASED ON NATIONAL ORIGIN in determining procedures for the processing of applications. The result of the statutory revision was that Vietnamese nationals were forced to return to Vietnam to apply for a US Visa, while nationals of other countries living in Hong Kong could apply for a US Visa in Hong Kong.
So, how did the Ninth Circuit deal with this argument — pretty much the same way you and the “immigration scholar” you relied on previously dealt with it — they danced away in a little pirouette in order to sidestep it and never deal with its actual implications on the legality of the EO.
Here’s what that brilliant piece of legal analysis by the 9th Circuit said:
“This provision governs the Secretary of State’s manner and place for processing applications.” FALSE.
It doesn’t “govern” anything. It says the previous section does not apply to the Secretary of State’s AUTHORITY in determining PROCEDURES.
That “authority” derives from the President. The “procedures” settled upon are not subject to the “anti-discrimination” provision of the previous section, i.e., they can discriminate based on national origin.
So, please tell me you have something more than the 3 9th Circuit judges you have fallen in behind.
shipwreckedcrew (56b591) — 6/19/2017 @ 6:42 pm235 — I’m not here to “amass bodies of evidence” to shake you from your well-considered and unshakable beliefs. I would be wasting my time.
shipwreckedcrew (56b591) — 6/19/2017 @ 6:43 pmDave,
There are several relationships that the law recognizes as deserving of special protections — privileges — when it comes to evidence/courts. Examples are the attorney-client privilege, doctor-patient privilege, spousal privilege, priest-penitent privilege, executive privilege, and in some states a reporter-source privilege.
The law generally treats privileges similarly and often uses the attorney-client privilege as an analogy:
The attorney-client relationship is a principal-agent relationship where the client is the principal and the attorney is the agent. (In addition to the attorney-client privilege, there is a separate duty of confidentiality.) Legally, the attorney-client relationship is considered a fiduciary relationship.
DRJ (15874d) — 6/19/2017 @ 6:54 pm245 — DRJ has this pretty much exactly correct. Most privileges are established in common law, and few are actually reduced to statutes anywhere.
In some instances the privilege rests with only one party to the relationship, and in some the privilege is mutual.
Its important to understand where it rests with only one party, because the other party subject to the privilege doesn’t have the ability to disclose information. Its not just that they can’t be compelled to produce information subject to the privilege, they can’t give up that information even if they wanted to.
shipwreckedcrew (56b591) — 6/19/2017 @ 7:02 pmOne hydrogen atom says to another, “Oh my god, I’ve lost my electron!”
“Are you sure?”
“I’m positive!”
Meh.
A dairy farm was looking for ways to increase their profits, so they hired a psychologist, an engineer and a physicist as consultants. After completing their initial studies, they all presented their reports.
The psychologist explained that cows associate the color green with the satisfaction of eating grass. Since happier cows would produce more milk, she recommended painting the walls of the facility green.
The engineer then laid out a set of blueprints and explained that by moving the walls of the milking stalls 4.2 cm closer together, they would be able to add an extra stall and increase productivity by 2%.
Finally, it was the physicist’s turn. He walked up to the blackboard, drew a giant circle, and began “Assume the cow is a sphere…”
(I tried hard to think of a way to replace the psychologist or engineer with an attorney, but drew a blank…the best I could come up with was that they hired a lawyer as the *fourth* consultant and that he recommended suing the psychologist and physicist for malpractice).
Dave (711345) — 6/19/2017 @ 7:04 pmThat’s a question so absurd I wonder whether you are being serious or disingenuous.
The privilege of a communication extends beyond the job tenure. Essentially, what you are asserting is that since Comey no longer has the job, he’s no longer required to respect Executive Privilege. By analogy, a lawyer who retires and becomes a private citizen is still not allowed to blab his clients’ privileged communications.
Chuck Bartowski (211c17) — 6/19/2017 @ 7:10 pmSo it is striking how evidence of this random unmasking has been obscure by the grishenko play.
narciso (d1f714) — 6/19/2017 @ 7:11 pmDave, you yourself guessed — correctly (#111) — that “if [I wasn’t] just making it up, it must be in one or more court decisions.” Then you went and read, apparently, two cases, from which you’ve decided that you know the extent to which privileges in general share some aspects and the extent to which they differ.
You’re wrong about that as I would be if I decided I could look up some aspect of your engineering profession — maybe via Wikipedia or “Engineering for Dummies,” but maybe from consulting some engineering text or treatise from which I could understand one or two pages after serious investment of time — and decided to do with it whatever type of engineering you do. I wouldn’t know what I don’t know, and that, my friend, describes you and the law perfectly.
If you start opining about engineering matters here, I won’t presume that you are making them up when you decline to take my hand and teach me to be a junior engineer. Deal?
In every single comment I have left here, I’ve quite carefully tried to specify whether I was talking about executive, attorney-client, work product, investigative, or other privileges (priest-penitent, husband-wife, doctor-patient, reporter shield laws, or whatever, including some of those that aren’t actually privileges but function like them in some respects). I’ve read cases about all those and more. I deal with privilege quite literally daily — all sorts of privileges. As I’ve written here before — perhaps you skipped or missed it — there are broad similarities in the ways that one can assert and waive privileges, even though whether they apply in the first place depends on the context and the specific privilege being asserted. You could indeed find many, many court opinions where the judges have reasoned by analogy in a deliberate attempt to harmonize, as much as practicable, the way privileges are handled. But I agree that to do that effectively, you’d actually need to devote more than a half hour or a half day or a half month to that study.
So I ask you on this, if you don’t want me to simply ignore you, as I obviously ought to do, to stop insisting that I educate you. DRJ gave you a more than adequate answer, with which I fully concur. Even the language she quoted here answers your question:
Well, you’re the guy who’s insisting on further discussion anyway, aren’t you? Subscribe to Westlaw, you can run some key number searches on executive privilege cases, and likewise on other privileges which are often discussed in the same breath, and I encourage you to read to your heart’s content to see all of those which discuss the circumstances under which executive privilege can be claimed. My paraphrase is exactly accurate, but (in conformity with other cases) it’s a little bit more precise. Is the communication private, something the POTUS has kept confidential? Is it between and among high Government officials and those who advise and assist them? Is it a communication made in the performance of their manifold duties? Well there you have it, Dave — written down quite helpfully for you by both the SCOTUS and DRJ and now by me.
But I do want an answer to my question, which is personal and specific to you. I repeat:
(a) Could the State of Texas strip me of my law license if I deliberately revealed the substance of a privileged communication? Assume I was acting on my own and without consent or knowledge of my client, and under no compulsion from a judge who’s heard and resolved my client’s potential privilege objections first.
Or:
(b) Do you believe instead that I’d have a First Amendment defense that would save me from losing my license?
Beldar (fa637a) — 6/19/2017 @ 7:12 pmDave is as passive aggressive as lovey perhaps not as lovey i think that his/her mame probably thought the practice was really relating the law.
narciso (d1f714) — 6/19/2017 @ 7:16 pmDave at 247. Legal fictions. Do you know that you own your home from the center of the Earth to the end of the Universe? There’s a poem about it, “Legal Fiction” by William Empson, but darn if I can find it on the internet. Did you know that XX can be male and XY female and you’ll be in trouble if you say otherwise? Yep, lawyers are probably the most guilty of committing alternate reality.
nk (dbc370) — 6/19/2017 @ 7:17 pmDave, even if I’m disbarred I will still owe a fiduciary duty to every client I’ve ever represented, forever, as long as I breathe.
Hope you never need a lawyer, but for pete’s sake, don’t react to him if you do like you’ve continuously bickered with and insulted the lawyers here who’re genuinely trying to inform you.
Beldar (fa637a) — 6/19/2017 @ 7:18 pmAnd yes, that’s written down. It was written down in the canons of ethics centuries ago. It is maintained today in, for example, the Disciplinary Rules of Professional Conduct that I practice under every day as a member of the Texas Bar, and on which I’ve lectured to other professionals. The agent-principal relationship between the POTUS and members of the Executive Branch stems from Article II and the Appointments Clause. I assure you that everything I’ve said is something that has indeed been written down somewhere and that I didn’t just make up. I get angrier at you with every insinuation you make, sir.
Beldar (fa637a) — 6/19/2017 @ 7:21 pmIf you want, Dave, for purposes of my hypothetical you can assume I’ve been hired by Trump as an Assistant White House Counsel, and the privilege at issue is indeed executive privilege, rather than attorney-client. Or not. It won’t matter for purposes of his thought experiment, which is (you might guess — see it coming? need more foreshadowing) about your spectacularly naive and flawed understanding of the First Amendment.
Beldar (fa637a) — 6/19/2017 @ 7:25 pmhttps://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jun/15/robert-mueller-trump-russia-investigation-team-members?CMP=share_btn_tw
Is Flynn cooperating? It would be irresponsible not to speculate
Spartacvs (2db708) — 6/19/2017 @ 7:31 pmHere’s the equivalent of some legal Cliff Notes on the fiduciary duties owed by government officials, Dave. This used to be taught in high school civics, but depending on when you went to high school, you might have an excuse.
Beldar (fa637a) — 6/19/2017 @ 7:32 pmSparty, one of the partners Mueller brought with him, Andrew Weissmann, prosecuted Arthur Andersen, destroying that major accounting firm. The conviction was thrown out by a unanimous SCOTUS. I don’t judge his whole career by that, nor conclude that he’s unfit for the role Mueller has put him in, which is probably limited to “greybeard consultations” over lunch. But the prosecution, which was once among the most prominent in the nation, is no longer a feather in Weissmann’s cap, and he had to sand down the notch on his six-shooter’s grip.
Beldar (fa637a) — 6/19/2017 @ 7:42 pmDRJ and SWC, thanks for your civil and helpful explanations.
But I note, even in the passage cited by DRJ (emphasis added):
That is the distinction that I have been trying to draw. I understand that certain communications are privileged in a court of law (or in other instances where people can be compelled to testify, like being subpoenaed by congress). But Comey wasn’t in court or subject to any subpoena when he added to the information Trump had already made public about their conversations.
If SWC’s elaboration on non-/mutuality is applicable in this instance, it removes that conceptual stumbling-block:
Is it obvious that privilege rested with Trump alone? In a conversation involving several officials, is only the most senior privileged? What about a conversation among co-equals (say, several cabinet members, with the president not present)?
Regardless, it seems to me there are still at least a couple “outs” for Comey:
1) Trump had already divulged details of the conversations, including the equivalent of “Comey told me …”
2) If Trump’s statements were attempts to obstruct justice, they would not be privileged.
Dave (711345) — 6/19/2017 @ 7:45 pmI give up. You are hopeless.
Beldar (fa637a) — 6/19/2017 @ 7:49 pmBeldar — the Enron prosecution ended up being quite a black eye for prosecutorial abuses after all the convictions were played out through appeal.
And some of the arguments advanced by Weissman, especially his pressing of a very aggressive interpretation of “corruptly” with regard to the destruction of documents, looking particularly troubling in retrospect. The conviction of Arthur Anderson as a corporation on that count destroyed the firm, and took 28,000 jobs with it. Weissman’s argument, which the judge accepted, divorced the issue of “criminality” from the act of document destruction under a long standing document retention policy followed by AA.
shipwreckedcrew (56b591) — 6/19/2017 @ 7:52 pm107.Are you a lawyer, Dave?
God help your clients if so.
Are you, Beldar? God help your clients if so and the briefs you prepare for them given the voluminous number of corrections to your own comments you have to post on these threads. Try ‘proofreading’ – “This used to be taught in high school… but depending on when you went to high school, you might have an excuse.”
Dave: consider contacting JPL; they might want to probe Beldar. Haven’t observed this much outgassing since Voyager swept past Io. 😉
DCSCA (797bc0) — 6/19/2017 @ 8:00 pm@258 Sounds like the ideal person to put the screws to Flynn.
I also hear Mueller is bringing on a specialist in flipping, and we’re not talking real estate.
Spartacvs (2db708) — 6/19/2017 @ 8:00 pmYes it looks like the equivalent of waterboarding for jay walking extreme overkill, enron has a poor business model,
narciso (d1f714) — 6/19/2017 @ 8:00 pmThere is no such thing as a “specialist” in flipping.
You’re just talking out of your ass.
shipwreckedcrew (56b591) — 6/19/2017 @ 8:01 pmWell everything they learned from law and order, which makes game of thrones take in body count
narciso (d1f714) — 6/19/2017 @ 8:04 pmAnswers:
[1] Yes, and I’m tempted here to quote Andy Dufresne, speaking to Warden Norton, but that would be rude. Read Article II for a start, then google “unitary executive.”
[2] People aren’t privileged. Communications can be privileged, depending. Every time I speak a word of confidential legal advice to my client, for instance, I’m creating a privileged communication. If I have two associates and they’re talking to each other, so they can talk to me, so I can talk to the client, that’s also covered by attorney-client privilege, plus an additional privilege called “work product.”
[3] The POTUS not be personally present; if the confidential communication is among his Executive Branch high officials per their delegated authority from him, in the performance of their duties, he owns the privilege and only he can decide whether to claim or waive it. There is zero doubt that “high officials” includes, at a bare and inarguable minimum, the POTUS’ cabinet appointees, the Directors of the CIA & FBI, and other such Article II agencies.
Ditto.
Ditto.
Comey is not a judge. He doesn’t get to rule on privilege claims, nor decide that his client’s privilege claim is waived. If a privilege, including executive privilege, is challenged on grounds that it is being asserted on a communication that was part of the commission of a crime, then that decision must be reserved for the judge who eventually rules on that challenge. Comey, under executive privilege, may no more usurp his principal’s decision to blab the details of their February 14 meeting than I would be free to go to the newspapers if my client who’s a capital murder case privately admitted to me that he was guilty. As they disbarred me, they would all laugh when I said, “But it’s okay — he’s guilty!
Further explanation, including case citations and a formal memorandum adequate for submission in court, available upon request and engagement at my standard hourly rates. No more troll-feeding for free from me.
Beldar (fa637a) — 6/19/2017 @ 8:05 pmErrata (#267): Sorry, those “Dittos” I meant to delete. Ignore them.
Beldar (fa637a) — 6/19/2017 @ 8:06 pm*capital murder defendant
Beldar (fa637a) — 6/19/2017 @ 8:08 pm@265
http://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN19A1CM
Spartacvs (2db708) — 6/19/2017 @ 8:10 pmDave,
I think you may be conflating the duty of confidentiality, which I think is a public policy issue, and the concept of privileges. Privileges are evidentiary issues that occur in court cases. Confidentiality applies whether or not there is a court case. It arises because of the special/fiduciary relationships discussed above. Further, with current and former government employees, non-disclosure agreements may also apply. Comey doesn’t have to be in court or under subpoena to have a duty of confidentiality or if he signed a NDA.
As for the “outs” you raise, they both involve reasons to waive executive privilege in court. That doesn’t erase the duty of confidentiality.
DRJ (15874d) — 6/19/2017 @ 8:10 pmDave, you have it backwards. In a court of law, it’s government versus government and it’s a matter of who has the stronger governmental interest in the particular instance — the judicial branch or the executive branch. When no other governmental interest is involved, the executive wins by a shutout.
And it’s the same with all fiduciary relationships — principal’s interest versus some governmental interest. Yes, absolutely, the privilege is all the principal’s, subject to governmental interest, and the agent has absolutely no rights regarding it except to keep his mouth shut unless his principal or the government tell him otherwise.
nk (dbc370) — 6/19/2017 @ 8:11 pmYou posted your five replies while I was drafting my response to SWC and DRJ (in which I conceded the substance of what you have been insisting, by the way).
I do appreciate your attempts at discussion, even laced with gratuitous venom as they are.
I don’t mean this as an insult, but I learned a lot more from the relatively brief (and civil) #245 and #246 than from your much longer and more emotional replies. I point this out only because if you are interested in communicating more information in fewer (and less fraught) words, you could learn from those examples.
Dave (711345) — 6/19/2017 @ 8:14 pm… nor does it extinguish the responsibility to abide by the terms of a non-disclosure agreement.
That’s why Comey’s actions, both with Hillary and Trump, have struck me as an attempt to be a quasi-whistle-blower. He wants the benefit of releasing information the way a whistle-blower would without exposing himself to any of the penalties.
DRJ (15874d) — 6/19/2017 @ 8:14 pmI think the converse he let one go, as he has in the mark rich and Berger investigation and he brings,down the hammer on the other, but it’s rare for his victims like quattrine and hatfill to speak; they’ve lost too much, consider the Raymond Donovan query.
narciso (d1f714) — 6/19/2017 @ 8:19 pmGive courtesy to get it, Dave. Quit implying that I’m making things up when I post about the law. You want less snark, use less snark.
Beldar (fa637a) — 6/19/2017 @ 8:20 pmI’ve never claimed concision as a virtue, although I admire it.
Beldar (fa637a) — 6/19/2017 @ 8:21 pmPeople still figuring out the corruption is the FBI and DOJ.
Blah (44eaa0) — 6/19/2017 @ 8:24 pmSparty, show me a reasonably seasoned prosecutor who doesn’t think he or she is an expert in witness flipping and I’ll show you some unicorns.
Beldar (fa637a) — 6/19/2017 @ 8:25 pm(I do that in civil practice. It’s really common.)
Beldar (fa637a) — 6/19/2017 @ 8:25 pmBeldar and swc could address this better than I, but I think we sometimes use the term Executive Privilege or Attorney-Client Privilege as a catch-all for the privilege and for the duty of confidentiality owed to a President or client. However, they are separate concepts. The Supreme Court in US vs Nixon mentioned both but limited its analysis to the privilege since it involved a subpoena in a court case.
As for mutuality of privileges, most privileges involve a principal and an agent. In those cases, the agent owes the duty of confidentiality to the principal, and only the principal can waive it. Examples are attorney-client, doctor-patient, priest-penitent, reporter-source (if the jurisdiction recognizes it), and the executive privilege. The only mutual privilege I’m aware of it the spousal privilege, where both spouses can assert it. But swc and Beldar do this for a living so they would be better at answering your questions.
DRJ (15874d) — 6/19/2017 @ 8:33 pmMeanwhile back at the ranch:
narciso (d1f714) — 6/19/2017 @ 8:34 pmhttp://www.babalublog.com/
The volume of sheer nonsense and wishful thinking on the parts of Trump’s enemies makes one volcano or two of smoke.
Crazy.
When we look back 20 years at how we lost control of this nation no doubt the Left will play lead actor in the drama but let me tell you the NeverTrumpers will be front and center in the second act of this drama. Man they so want to believe every idiotic comment that one wonders for their mental health.
Blah (44eaa0) — 6/19/2017 @ 8:38 pm270 — I don’t care what some idiot reporter writes. I “convinced” several dozen people to testify against “friends”, co-workers, etc., in my career. But I always had a personal line that I didn’t cross — I never made testimony against a family member a condition of cooperation. Some prosecutors do.
Weismann is nothing out of the ordinary in this regard. Its pretty easy to “flip” someone when you explain to them that they are going to jail, and its simply a matter of for how long. Cooperate = less time. Don’t cooperate = more time. They figure it out pretty easily.
This is a reporter working too hard to find a story angle where one doesn’t actually exist in real life.
shipwreckedcrew (56b591) — 6/19/2017 @ 8:38 pmBeldar & shipwreckedcrew
So neither of you want to comment on the suggestion that Flynn may be a cooperating witness?
Spartacvs (2db708) — 6/19/2017 @ 8:45 pmYes Brenda Murray used William Allen who was not a fellow of confidence to take down a passel of Alaskan state legislators and yes steven, quic custodie custodies if my Latin is right.
narciso (d1f714) — 6/19/2017 @ 8:45 pm@ swc (#284): That reminds me, thinking of it from the side of your opponents in your multi-defendant cases where someone pleaded and then testified:
There’s also sometimes a “common interest” or “pooled information” privilege among some litigants, on top of the others previously mentioned!
When I was in BigLaw, it was quite common in big, multi-party cases for the various defendants, through their respective law firms, to negotiate, draft, and then if necessary enforce the provisions of a formal joint defense agreement. Typically, such agreements expressly require every signee to commit that before volunteering to waive privilege on anything shared among defendants, the signee will first give the other signees due notice and opportunity to step in and object, and to get a ruling on that objection. Some have big liquidated damage penalties, but they’re all explicitly enforceable by injunction.
Nowadays, if I’m working with someone I trust, I usually reduce all that to about two sentences and commemorate it only through an exchange of emails. But documenting the agreement somehow, in advance, is essential if you intend to be able to rely upon it, as against your former co-litigant sharing common interests with you (needn’t be identical ones), when he flips.
Beldar (fa637a) — 6/19/2017 @ 8:53 pmNope. You were wrong. And you’re being either thick, or a jerk.
I don’t want to have this fight with you. I choose to remember the Mike K I met in person who seemed like a good guy. I choose to ignore whatever this is that you have turned into.
Patterico (c60007) — 6/19/2017 @ 8:53 pmI was in a [edited to delete expletive] six-week trial.
Patterico (c60007) — 6/19/2017 @ 8:54 pmWhich you knew.
And I am now on vacation with virtually no time for “responsive legal analysis.”
Patterico (c60007) — 6/19/2017 @ 8:55 pmMy comment, Sparty, is that I would be speculating, as are you and the source you cited. On this occasion I’m disinclined to speculate, even when labeling it as such. I don’t know what went on between them. I make no assumptions when it comes to Trump and his penchant for folly. Heisenberg’s cat is probably either already dead or still alive, but I don’t know which, and the box hasn’t yet been opened.
Beldar (fa637a) — 6/19/2017 @ 8:56 pmHappy belated Father’s Day, Patterico. Enjoy your vacation!
Beldar (fa637a) — 6/19/2017 @ 8:58 pmDid the trial turn out the way you expected.
Yes we’ve seen John Sirica got results Renata adler was one of the few who noted and that was 20 years later, Iran contra has it’s own abuses of power and then there was judge Walton of the Plame, the last was ostensibly about a real event but the motive was different
narciso (d1f714) — 6/19/2017 @ 9:04 pm@ DRJ, re #281: That’s all spot on, and the “common interest” privilege is another example of a shared privilege with multiple principals able to assert rights thereunder.
Beldar (fa637a) — 6/19/2017 @ 9:07 pmCorrect. The analysis is that this does not appear to be a provision that is reasonably read as undoing the previous law.
I addressed this in comments back in January. You may not have liked my answer. But to pretend I never gave one, because I did not repeat it here while in the middle of a trial or on vacation, would be a bit disingenuous. I’ll assume instead that you forgot my responses from January, so I’ll repeat them:
Here:
And here:
I don’t plan to re-argue this here in detail at this particular time, but I guess I can’t prevent you from raging that I ignored you when you knew for a fact that I had a lengthy trial going on until very very recently.
Patterico (c60007) — 6/19/2017 @ 9:08 pmLet’s say it turned out as I hoped. “Expected” would be a bit much.
Patterico (c60007) — 6/19/2017 @ 9:09 pmJust as a reminder, this exchange began with you (falsely) calling me an outright liar, and lecturing me about making stuff up, when I said (accurately) that Comey testified under oath that he had never leaked while FBI Director.
I proceeded to politely (“You are incorrect”) quote you chapter and verse, but never received an apology.
I also politely asked you to adopt a more civil tone, and the response (after I had just conclusively refuted your false charge of lying) was to accuse me of dishonesty again and vow to continue to argue in bad faith as long as it amused you.
But yeah, sure.
Dave (711345) — 6/19/2017 @ 9:13 pmIf people could stop jumping down my throat that would be cool. I’m not really in the mood.
Patterico (c60007) — 6/19/2017 @ 9:15 pmswc, my former firm, Weil Gotshal, represented Enron in its bankruptcy, but that was years after I’d left. I worked with Arthur Andersen extensively during the Greyhound bankruptcy back earlier in the 1990s, and I certainly developed a high respect for the firm’s capabilities and for the partner who was my damages expert in that case. Your comments about Weissmann’s role are absolutely consistent with everything I’ve heard when those cases were current, high-profile matters here in Houston, but I never was more than a remote spectator in any of those.
Beldar (fa637a) — 6/19/2017 @ 9:24 pmDave, I’ll look at those links if you fix them.
Beldar (fa637a) — 6/19/2017 @ 9:26 pm(The individual comment permalinks are the date & time tag highlighted at the bottom of each.)
Beldar (fa637a) — 6/19/2017 @ 9:28 pm@ Patterico,
Very good news indeed. And it’s great to have you back. It’s unfortunate that you had to come back to the rudeness. As such, maybe back burner all of this while you take a breather and enjoy some well deserved R&R with the family. It’s seems like a wonderful option.
Dana (023079) — 6/19/2017 @ 9:37 pmThanks. Not a bad idea.
Patterico (c60007) — 6/19/2017 @ 9:42 pmThe links worked for me in the editor, and they work for me now as posted.
I copied them from the date/time tag, just as you describe.
The site does not seem to put the comments at a predictable position in the browser window when you follow their links, though, at least in Chrome.
Dave (711345) — 6/19/2017 @ 9:42 pmI blame Trump for Patrick’s long and unwelcome hiatuses.
He promised to end crime and violence, which would give Patrick plenty of time to post, but like so many other Trump promises…
Dave (711345) — 6/19/2017 @ 9:48 pmOkay, Dave. I’m also not interested in becoming your HTML tutor, but I appreciate your effort and accept that you made them. I’ll try to respond.
Skimming, I see where I referred to you as intellectually dishonest on the post you linked, and I called your assertion that Flynn is a spy as being disingenuous, and I called some of your assertions fantasies. I stand on all that and make no apologies for it at all.
I do not see, and don’t recall using, the word “liar” or the phrase “outright liar,” and neither can I find that word or phrase in a text search of that post. So you’re putting words in my mouth. I try to be very careful about brandishing the liar finger, because making distinctions between things that are merely wrong and things that are the product of a deliberate intention to mislead is something I do in my day job daily — like you distinguish carefully between pounds and kilograms in your profession, I’m guessing (since I don’t know what kind of engineering you teach) — and if I get confused, the consequences for my clients might be as bad as your students’ clients if they mix up pounds and kilograms someday. When I brandish the liar finger at you, I assure you that neither you nor anyone will have to wonder. When I accuse you of it as a persistent character attribute, rather than a one-off, you’ll know that too.
Re your assertion that “According to sworn testimony, Comey leaked nothing while FBI director”: I had assumed, because you gave no dates or particulars, that you were referring to Comey’s Senate testimony on June 7, since you & I were writing here on June 14. I then saw, and didn’t dispute, your clarification that you were referring to his testimony instead on May 3, shortly before he was fired. Obviously, his testimony on May 3 could not cover his entire tenure as FBI Director. So if you want me to acknowledge that I didn’t catch that you were quoting from something other than the most recent hearing, I duly so acknowledge. I added that Comey’s preparation to become a leaker obviously preceded his departure from the FBI, when he took into his personal possession the copy of his Feb 14 memo that he then let his buddy read selected parts from to the press. If and to the extent you were arguing that the overall body of testimony shows that Comey is no leaker, or that you’re continuing to argue that, I continue to say: That’s inaccurate and disingenuous.
I have no idea which comment you think was my “vow to continue arguing in bad faith.” But see, that’s exactly the kind of putting words in my mouth that is an instant indicator to me, the proverbial red flag, of a troll. And you’re still spewing them.
Beldar (fa637a) — 6/19/2017 @ 9:59 pmIf you want to direct me to any other specific comments, Dave, you can use the comment numbers if you want, in lieu of trying to write a link that merely goes to the right page (but not a specific comment).
Beldar (fa637a) — 6/19/2017 @ 10:04 pmEnjoy your vacation — we can spar later.
I’m heading out on vacation tomorrow with 4 kids as well. Unfortunately, I’ve got to haul along a bunch of work or I don’t get paid.
shipwreckedcrew (56b591) — 6/19/2017 @ 10:18 pmHey, Dave, is comment #350 on the June 14th post the one that you just characterized (#297 in this thread) as my “vow to continue to argue in bad faith as long as it amused [me]”? I wrote:
That’s still true, but it’s hardly an admission that I’d been arguing in bad faith. In court, I’d say: “Objection to form, the premise is argumentative, move to strike,” to which the judge would reply: “Sustained and granted. The jury will disregard the reference to arguing in bad faith, and the witness need not answer. Next question.”
However, thank you for getting around, eventually, to your concession in #273 here. That was intellectually honest, if slow and grudging. Better late than never.
Beldar (fa637a) — 6/19/2017 @ 10:20 pmSafe travels, swc.
Beldar (fa637a) — 6/19/2017 @ 10:21 pmStill guessing, but I see that in #311 on the June 14 post, I said:
That’s a pretty precise statement, a deliberate modification on my part from the usual formulation about lying through half-truths. I see no reason to qualify or retract that now, either, but again — it’s not what you say I said. I did give you credit for quarter-truths, after all.
Beldar (fa637a) — 6/19/2017 @ 10:29 pm(And I meant to write “of which I’m accusing Dave is,” but I assume you weren’t misled by my typo.)
Beldar (fa637a) — 6/19/2017 @ 10:31 pmThe links in my post above, in order, are to comments 309 (by you, emphasis added):
Quoting 263 by me.
I defended my claim about Comey’s testimony and asked for civility in 330.
And you referred directly to my request (and dismissed it) in 350.
Dave (711345) — 6/19/2017 @ 10:57 pmYour quotes in #313 are accurate, Dave. Just not responsive.
May we assume from what’s not in #313 that you no longer accuse me of calling you an “outright liar”?
May we assume that you now concede that Comey is indeed a leaker, and begin that process while still FBI Director?
May we assume that you no longer accuse Flynn of being a “spy”?
Beldar (fa637a) — 6/19/2017 @ 11:14 pmIs this the day, in other words, that you can manage some sustained intellectual honesty, Dave? If so, I’ll happily keep my promise to stop mocking you.
Beldar (fa637a) — 6/19/2017 @ 11:15 pmNo, no and no.
Dave (711345) — 6/19/2017 @ 11:20 pmThen that day may come, Dave, but it’s not this day.
Beldar (fa637a) — 6/19/2017 @ 11:22 pmI do give you high marks for responsiveness and concision in #316. But yeah, still off the chart in intellectual dishonesty for a man of your evident intelligence.
Beldar (fa637a) — 6/19/2017 @ 11:30 pmOh, one more bit in your favor: I think you’re right, and that there’s something now amiss in Patterico’s webpage templates, because a while ago when I tried to create a link that ought to have resulted in a Chrome browser going to a particular comment, it did indeed take me to the right page but not to the right position to read that comment. I withdraw my comment about being your HTML tutor.
Beldar (fa637a) — 6/19/2017 @ 11:34 pmAnd if you’re going to have your web monkeys look at that, Patterico, I re-urge my respectful suggestion made years ago in your re-design that you put the commenter’s name and the date on the first line. I hate having to scroll down through a long comment before seeing who wrote it and deciding whether it’s worth reading. Of course, keep the alternating shading and your special yellow shading, which help a great deal too.
Beldar (fa637a) — 6/19/2017 @ 11:37 pm(I haven’t forgotten that someone — felipe? — wrote some kind of javascript or something that would automatically block comments from designated commenters, but sometimes, if in no hurry, I do at least skim comments written by one of the people I normally consider a waste of time to read, based on long and repeated experience. You’re not in that category yet, Dave, I’m not remotely bored with you.)
Beldar (fa637a) — 6/19/2017 @ 11:40 pmWell hmm, upon further review I note that Patterico’s own links to previous comments in #295 above do work properly when I click them, taking me to the intended January 29 post and the specific comments he was quoting. But my attempt to create a link here to comments on the June 14th post still won’t work. Perhaps it’s something to do with the comment moderation routines? I don’t know.
Beldar (fa637a) — 6/20/2017 @ 12:00 amWe sympathize across the pond
https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/politics/the-tory-party-is-more-useless-than-nasty
Recall the scrum against leadson for pointing out she has a stake in the future on the way may did not.
In the worst than feckless, that little burg in south Florida Sweetwater has been discovered to have been doing waterboarding along with the king John customary apptopriatin
narciso (d26172) — 6/20/2017 @ 4:45 amRemember they were the ones who poached Conrad black’s empire, and Jeb was adirector
For a time:
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-06-20/barclays-former-ceo-criminally-charged-over-qatar-fundraising
narciso (d26172) — 6/20/2017 @ 4:50 amCongratulations on your trial result, Patterico. Everyone is fortunate to have you on the job, especially Californians.
DRJ (15874d) — 6/20/2017 @ 5:29 amIs it possible that doctors just can’t contemplate the possibility that a court decision is right on the law but wrong on policy? That would explain Mike K’s remarkable obtuseness here.
Patterico (c60007) — 6/20/2017 @ 5:47 amThank you, DRJ. It was an interesting case.
Patterico (c60007) — 6/20/2017 @ 5:51 amI don’t know if it’s about understanding or lack of understanding, although legal issues (like medical issues) can be hard to understand and often require a lot of reading, re-reading and thought. But my feeling is he is concerned about what he sees, maybe even fearful, and that makes it hard to be dispassionate.
Doctors are trained to be clinical in life-and-death medical situations, especially when the patient and family are anxious and emotional, because they need to remain calm to make good decisions. Similarly, lawyers control their emotions when dealing with legal issues. It’s easier for doctors and lawyers to be dispassionate about issues they deal with every day, but that doesn’t necessarily transfer to every area of their lives.
It’s especially hard for all of us to do this with politics because we have no control over it, and it has become such an important part of our lives.
DRJ (15874d) — 6/20/2017 @ 6:43 amSomeday you should write a book, Patterico. I hesitate to ask you to share the details about what you do but I would love to hear more about it. I know you have some fascinating (to me) legal and human interest stories. Unfortunately, I’m sure your legal work also involves human tragedy but that is important to know about, too.
DRJ (15874d) — 6/20/2017 @ 6:46 amThe wife half of the San Bernandino shooters came in on a family unity immigrant visa (fiancee or spouse). Stupid, stupid, stupid when a court interprets the policy provision of granting visas without regard to nationality or religion to mean that the President has to allow them in from nations which are little more than terrorist training camps, notwithstanding an express provision that he can exclude certain classes of people he deems dangerous to the United States.
nk (dbc370) — 6/20/2017 @ 6:58 amIn for a penny, in for a pound. The Court did not interpret the law, it made policy. A policy that is is preferrable for a terrorist to come to the United States, than it is for a Hawaiian to be deprived of having his mother-in-law come live with him.
nk (dbc370) — 6/20/2017 @ 7:03 amIn other news
http://gcaptain.com/uss-fitzgerald-fault/
narciso (d26172) — 6/20/2017 @ 7:03 am*preferable*
nk (dbc370) — 6/20/2017 @ 7:04 amBack at the rsnch:
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/448781/resistance-regime-change-any-means-necessary-lies-leaks-violence
narciso (d1f714) — 6/20/2017 @ 8:14 amThe law is stupid. If more public yakkers were to accurately diagnose the problem — that Congress passed a dumb law — then the cure would be obvious: pass a new law.
But without a proper diagnosis, a cure is hard to administer.
(Trying to speak in language Dr. K can follow here, since the whole “policy vs. law” distinction goes whizzing over his head every time.)
Patterico (c60007) — 6/20/2017 @ 10:56 amPrivate-practice civil lawyers like me generally love to have doctor clients. Usually they can afford us. Usually they can follow what we tell them and participate actively in all phases of their representation. And because they generally are way brighter than average, and they know it, they (like many lawyers too, I hasten to add!) assume that their intelligence and professional judgment translate directly into things like long-term commercial leases, real estate investments, non-competition agreements, and all sorts of other commercial enterprises that, in turn, spin off legal work — either in setting them up or, as I more often do, attending to the consequences when they collapse. A friend of mine specializes in representing doctors in what he describes jokingly — including to them! he’s a ballsy guy! — as “DDDs,” meaning “dumb doctor deals.” And doctors also often seem to me to be inclined to hold grudges, or to defend principle, either of which translates into more paid work for me that a more short-term economically-focused client might order up. In short, doctors tend to be high-maintenance clients, but they compensate for that in profitability, measured both in terms of dollars and cents and in terms of the lawyer’s job satisfaction.
My experience in arguing politics with doctors, though, inclines me to the belief that they are more inclined than the average John Q. Citizen to go off on hobby-horse tangents and crank theories. (Totally true of lawyers, too, and perhaps more true of them than of doctors!) Again, though, there are compensations: They usually are articulate and well-educated, and they usually have some internal compass. I try to avoid arguing politics with someone who can’t ever be shamed, the truly shameless, because the argument will always end with them throwing their own feces at you; not many docs have done that, in my experience.
My ex is a physician, and we were together throughout her medical school and post-grad training, several years in which she was a medical educator, and then several years during which she was in practice. So I used to spend an inordinate amount of time among docs, and I generally enjoyed their company.
All of this is gross stereotyping on my part, and I’m genuinely not directing any of these remarks at Mike K or anyone else, but rather, musing in response to DRJ’s comments in #328.
Beldar (fa637a) — 6/20/2017 @ 11:30 amNow, you want high-maintenance clients? Try representing other lawyers!
Beldar (fa637a) — 6/20/2017 @ 11:33 amBeldar,
A family member who is also a lawyer has represented many local physicians. I think he would agree that DDDs (fantastic term!) are lucrative and provide recurring business. Some doctors seem to think that doing well in med school and their practices makes them skilled businessmen/women. Of course, as you suggest, plenty of lawyers think this, too.
My impression is that Mike K is not one of those doctors. I think he is very concerned about our country. I wish he could understand that most of us here are, too, but we don’t think Trump has the ability, intellect, or conservative principles to make a difference. Having more support is not going to fix Trump’s mistakes and deficits.
But I will join Mike K in hoping that Trump, as President, will be as successful and as conservative as he was when he campaigned.
DRJ (15874d) — 6/20/2017 @ 11:54 amA lawyer for a client? No way!
DRJ (15874d) — 6/20/2017 @ 11:54 amDRJ, I’m actually trying to expand the part of my practice in which I represent lawyers, especially on ethics issues. I’ve had a few engagements as “special ethics counsel” to respond to motions to disqualify, for instance, and I get a huge kick out of those. A few other cases defending lawyers accused of malpractice or other conduct — increasingly, those cases are moving from traditional negligence-based analyses to a fraud/undisclosed conflicts claims, which gets the plaintiff around the burden of proving a breach of the “reasonable professional” standard of care. But yeah, lawyers make very demanding clients. High maintenance, and they read their bills closely! I suppose I have a masochistic streak.
Beldar (fa637a) — 6/20/2017 @ 12:14 pmAs clients, lawyers also can be the most appreciative, on a well-informed basis, of the difference between adequate work and superb work — a double-edged sword, of course, but I respond well to carrots when they’re extra-juicy.
Beldar (fa637a) — 6/20/2017 @ 12:17 pmI can see that. I think it would be satisfying to help other lawyers when they get caught up with regulatory and administrative problems. I wouldn’t enjoy representing someone whosent actions clearly defrauded or hurt a client but denied it. Lawyers are supposed to represent the downtrodden and unpopular and I believe in that, but I guess this is my red line.
One more thought about doctors. I’ve mentioned before that members of my family have a rare disease, so we’ve seen many doctors over the years. As is common with rare diseases, the doctors’ suggested treatments and medications varied significantly. Some doctors adamamtly suggested treatments and medicstions that past experience said wouldn’t work. Now and then, I feel like that with Mike K. We both feel like we are right and we both think it’s important.
DRJ (15874d) — 6/20/2017 @ 12:30 pmStrangely, I don’t feel that way about other clients. They can be wrong and I would represent them. My prejudice is reserved for lawyers.
DRJ (15874d) — 6/20/2017 @ 12:31 pmWe belong to a very strange club.
Beldar (fa637a) — 6/20/2017 @ 1:28 pm313. Dave (711345) — 6/19/2017 @ 10:57 pm
It depends on the meaning of the word “authorize” as Beldar pointed out in 309 over there.
You can’t “authorize” a leak that is against the rules, or even illegal.
Sammy Finkelman (6f9f42) — 6/20/2017 @ 1:29 pmWe did have this leak:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/22/us/politics/james-comey-election.html
Sammy Finkelman (6f9f42) — 6/20/2017 @ 1:32 pmIt also depends on the meaning of the phrases “Trump investigation” and “Clinton investigation.”
There haven’t been any leaks about the Trump investigation, since according to Comey there was no investigation of Trump from at least Janaury 6 2017 through his firing, and if there was one before, there was no leak about it. So he obviously was not responsible for any leaks about it, even a leak that there wasn’t one. There was a leak that Comey wanted DOJ to say something.
There were some leaks about the Clinton investigation, but probably not with Comey’s approval, at least while it was going on.
Sammy Finkelman (6f9f42) — 6/20/2017 @ 1:33 pmLook at this:
Except that Comey said he had testified about it in closed session and that was nonsense. It came in the form of a russian intelligence analysis that claimed taht person A wrote to person B that person C (Debbie Wasserman Shultz) had emailed person D (at a Soros group) that Loretta lyunch would not let the e-mail investigation go too far.
Now we have leaks about that.
http://www.cnn.com/2017/05/26/politics/james-comey-fbi-investigation-fake-russian-intelligence
I think this is atotal lie. that’s not teh reason he did that.
More:
Sammy Finkelman (6f9f42) — 6/20/2017 @ 1:41 pmSean Spicer today, unable to say whether POTUS believes the Russians interfered with the presidential election of 2016.
Wow, I mean just WOW!
Spartacvs (2db708) — 6/20/2017 @ 2:29 pmNow and then, I feel like that with Mike K. We both feel like we are right and we both think it’s important.
I know no one here is interested in my opinion.
Is anyone interested in Victor Davis Hanson’s opinion ?
Did anyone notice GA-06 today ?
I go on to other blogs but come by once in a while to see if the frenzy has cooled off.
Mike K (f469ea) — 6/20/2017 @ 9:03 pmCidevilla who was in naval Intel and with Langley in the hottest day of the cold war,
https://amgreatness.com/2017/06/20/robert-mueller-needs-answer-crucial-questions-republicans-ask/
narciso (d1f714) — 6/20/2017 @ 9:07 pmMike K,
This is V D Hanson’s summary from the article you linked:
I agree with that. Most people here (except some of the progressives who comment) agree, too. In addition, I didn’t see anything in the article blaming conservatives, NeverTrump, or Republicans. Unless I missed something, it was about Democrats, progressives and the media.
I’m not trying to put words in your mouth but perhaps where you and I differ is that you (or if not you, then some Trump supporters) think I have a duty to support whatever Trump does because (1) he’s better than Hillary and (2) refusing to support Trump effectively makes me a Democrat/progressive. I disagree. Hillary lost and she doesn’t matter anymore. What Trump does matters because he is President, and I will support him when I agree with him and I won’t support him when I disagree with him. That doesn’t make me a Democrat or a progressive. (FWIW I think Handel’s win tonight and the high turnout in that race is partly due to Trump, and I’m glad she won. Good for them both.)
You quoted me in your last comment. Do you agree or disagree with what I said?
DRJ (15874d) — 6/20/2017 @ 9:23 pmTherevis nithu g to this investigation, so-called, ketvitvpersists like the trial of Joseph k, why do we bother with humoring esta Gaza bebrujas, yes one has to say it Spanish to make the point clearer, we know Richard Burr’s angle, we know mavericks,
narciso (d1f714) — 6/20/2017 @ 9:30 pmThis is hyperbole, isn’t it? The traditional way to oppose a president when you don’t have the legislative numbers is to attack his credibility and competence. That was done to Reagan, GHWB, Clinton, GWB and Obama. It is politics as usual.
The only difference is that in this case, due to inexperience, ignorance and immaturity, the president has decided to compete with his opponents to see who can damage his credibility and competence the most. And the president is winning that competition.
Is Hanson suggesting that Trump’s opponents should take pity on him because he’s so obviously out of his depth?
Dave (711345) — 6/20/2017 @ 10:10 pmthink I have a duty to support whatever Trump does
No, my only objection is to your, and Patrick’s language about him since he is the elected president. I could quote you an example from the other day when all this began but I am not that excited to go find it.
I was not originally a Trump supporter but became one as it appeared he was probably the only on who could defeat Hillary and even then I was surprised he actually did it.
I have a number of posts at Chicago boyz, where I mostly blog now, how I got to support him.
I don’t think Cruz, Patrick’s candidate, could have defeated her.
All I object to is the venomous tone of the anti-Trump rhetoric of you and some others here. For example,
the president has decided to compete with his opponents to see who can damage his credibility and competence the most. And the president is winning that competition.
Is he “winning that competition?”
I don’t think so. The anti-Trump Republicans seem to me to be made up of DC “lifers” who are happy as genteel losers in politics as long as their jobs are secure, and those who I find hard to understand who seem more dog in the manger types.
Anyway, I just hope the GOP Congress can finally take advantage of the GOP president and pass some legislation they’ve been promising for years.
Mike K (f469ea) — 6/21/2017 @ 7:41 amMike K,
I think you objected — you said I confirmed your impression — when I said Trump was “too small a man to feel anything but pity.” He is small in character and I do feel sorry for him.
DRJ (15874d) — 6/21/2017 @ 8:05 amThat is not a venomous tone. It’s an opinion and, at most, a disagreement.
DRJ (15874d) — 6/21/2017 @ 8:07 amBy the way, I’ve been criticizing the GOP establishment for years. I liked Cruz because he used to stand up to them, and I think he would have done it far more as President than Trump has. Your willingness to lump people like me into the same pot as DC Beltway insiders is questionable. In fact, not only do they support Trump, he listens to them.
DRJ (15874d) — 6/21/2017 @ 8:17 am“too small a man to feel anything but pity.”
That, when referring to the President of the United States, is a bit beyond an “opinion.”
You certainly have the right to your opinion but it is more than that and I think you know it.
That is why I said I think you and Patrick have gone off the rails in this.
There are lots of demeaning comments about Trump here which I think inappropriate but you all seem to enjoy and encourage them.
That is why I rarely comment here anymore and wonder if you will ever accept that what he is doing is something we needed.
Did you read that linked post above ? That was from December 2015. I doubt you will but I put up the link for anyone who wonders how one might become a supporter of Trump, given the alternatives.
Mike K (f469ea) — 6/21/2017 @ 8:40 amI try to read your posts at Chicago Boyz once or twice a month, so I had aleady read your link. I think you introduced me to Angelo Codevilla.
DRJ (15874d) — 6/21/2017 @ 9:31 amI don’t wonder how someone could be a Trump supporter. There are many valid reasons, and people I respect voted for him.
Can you understand why a conservative might not support Trump when he supports policies that aren’t conservative, or when he does things that demonstrate poor character?
DRJ (15874d) — 6/21/2017 @ 9:34 amThere are lots of demeaning comments about Trump here which I think inappropriate but you all seem to enjoy and encourage them.
I’m at a loss to understand why you think pointing out the fact that there is plenty of evidence to question the credibility and competence of Donald J. Trump is a demeaning comment. Or that saying that Trump is in his own worst enemy is venomous instead of being a mildly exaggerated description of the real state of affairs.
kishnevi (bb03e6) — 6/21/2017 @ 9:40 amWhat is my comment if it isn’t an opinion? It’s obviously not a threat so you must think it’s an insult.
Trump has poor character, and he has revealed this time and time again. That is not an insult, it’s a fact.
DRJ (15874d) — 6/21/2017 @ 9:41 amI make any number of demeaning comments about the Trump. I also called Obama a Stuttering Cluster*** Of A Miserable Failure (SCOAMF) among other things, and Bush 43 was more often that not The Shrub to me. I don’t consider that I’m committing blasphemy. They’re not deities. When Trump rises to the dignity of his Office, I’ll refer to him with the dignity the Office deserves.
nk (dbc370) — 6/21/2017 @ 10:05 amI think certain folks have falled into the trap of thinking that if one is not for Trump one is against him.
I adhere to the view that for the ultimate health of this country, both the Left and Trumpism must be defeated, because Trumpism is ultimately simply another form of Leftism gussied up in nationalist guise.
kishnevi (bb03e6) — 6/21/2017 @ 10:10 amAnd my view if there is nothing of substance, let’s not bother (Yes the mix is ironic)
Boris grishenko (b50707) — 6/21/2017 @ 10:14 am[Obama] cannot be parodied. Every attempt meets an example of his incredible self absorption.
Mike K (2cf494) — 4/15/2010 @ 8:41 am
A lot of Obama’s personal approval is residual from the electing of a black president. His failure will not be a good example and so the exposure of it will be fought bitterly.
Mike K (2cf494) — 3/1/2009 @ 10:53 am
Obama has only arrogance.
Mike K (dc6ffe) — 5/16/2013 @ 8:46 pm
If they pass such bill and send it to Obama, he will look like the liar he is if he doesn’t sign it.
Mike K (90dfdc) — 11/23/2014 @ 8:37 am
Obama is the old Chicago machine with a cute costume.
Mike K (2cf494) — 9/19/2008 @ 9:21 am
[The Obama’s] are grifters who pulled off one of the great scams in American history.
Leviticus (efada1) — 6/21/2017 @ 10:23 amMike K (b5c01a) — 7/27/2014 @ 10:57 am
Is any of that, when referring to the President of the United States, a bit beyond “an opinion”?
Leviticus (efada1) — 6/21/2017 @ 10:25 amLeave Donald Trump Alone!!!1!!11!
Leviticus (efada1) — 6/21/2017 @ 10:27 am331. nk (dbc370) — 6/20/2017 @ 7:03 am
Didn’t the court say that it was preident who made policy in excess of the discretion given to him by law – that immigration policy doesn’t just belong to the president; and that if a president had the authority to deny admission to a class of aliens whose admission would be detrimental to the United States – well there had to be a rational basis for believing that to be true; and that it was subject to judicial review, and that it doesn’t look like the president would be able to meet that test.
Sammy Finkelman (2b1acb) — 6/21/2017 @ 11:08 amLeviticus, I can see how your feelings are hurt by those observations about Obama.
I don’t have your energy (I work) so I will just have to link to where I found out about Obama’s background.
It was February 2008.
Several months before Obama announced his U.S. Senate bid, Jones called his old friend Cliff Kelley, a former Chicago alderman who now hosts the city’s most popular black call-in radio program.
I called Kelley last week and he recollected the private conversation as follows:
“He said, ‘Cliff, I’m gonna make me a U.S. Senator.’”
“Oh, you are? Who might that be?”
“Barack Obama.”
Jones appointed Obama sponsor of virtually every high-profile piece of legislation, angering many rank-and-file state legislators who had more seniority than Obama and had spent years championing the bills.
“I took all the beatings and insults and endured all the racist comments over the years from nasty Republican committee chairmen,” State Senator Rickey Hendon, the original sponsor of landmark racial profiling and videotaped confession legislation yanked away by Jones and given to Obama, complained to me at the time. “Barack didn’t have to endure any of it, yet, in the end, he got all the credit.
See how that goes ?
Trump is often crude and uncouth but most of the attacks on him are dishonest, like the Russian nonsense.
Don’t you think if Democrats had real scandals involving Trump we would have heard them by now ?
Mike K (f469ea) — 6/21/2017 @ 11:24 amI adhere to the view that for the ultimate health of this country, both the Left and Trumpism must be defeated, because Trumpism is ultimately simply another form of Leftism gussied up in nationalist guise.
You certainly have every right to your opinion although I think this is self defeating nonsense but go ahead.
As I have said, I generally go elsewhere for discussion these days.
There is so much pathology in California, for example, which used to be Patrick’s focus.
Mike K (f469ea) — 6/21/2017 @ 11:30 amNice pivot, Mike. Next time you get a coffee break or whatever, maybe you can tell us whether it’s okay or not okay for us to call the President of the United states a liar and question his character. Some of us are confused by your apparent double-standard, in this regard.
Leviticus (efada1) — 6/21/2017 @ 11:38 amMike K,
He could shoot a man in the street and some would insist it wasn’t a ‘real scandal’. Trump’s die hards, the ones saying it’s inappropriate to laugh at Trump, are not credible on whether the scandals are real or not.
Leviticus’s point wasn’t that he was upset that you wounded poor Obama. You’re being hypocritical.
You complain that it’s not appropriate to enjoy/tolerate criticism of the Dear Leader when it’s someone you like, but you rolled around in tons of criticism of the last president when it wasn’t someone you like.
That your reaction is to start talking about Leviticus’s career is unfortunately typical of partisans these days. There’s no need to get personal. You’re the one complaining about free speech, not him.
Just look at the things you criticized Obama for: machine politics, arrogance, flip flops on promises. Do you really think those are real issues, or do you only think they were real if Obama exhibits them?
Dustin (ba94b2) — 6/21/2017 @ 11:40 amListen to yourself. You’ve built up conservatives in your mind as this ultimate evil, blamable for everything.
All to avoid the truth: the guy who won the election is accountable for the mess he’s created. The people who warned you he was going to be this bad are not at fault when he really is this bad. Listen next time. This nation had a great opportunity last year, and instead went with a celebrity blowhard crook.
No kidding the guy who compares his political opponents to child molesters, bashes their wives as ugly, blames them for murdering JFK, creeps into locker rooms, gropes women, and abhors free speech will have a very difficult time getting anything done in our system of government. This is his fault.
Dustin (ba94b2) — 6/21/2017 @ 11:52 amHere is a guy who has every right to criticize Trump.
See what he says.
Trump’s die hards, the ones saying it’s inappropriate to laugh at Trump, are not credible on whether the scandals are real or not.
First, I’m not a Trump “die hard.” He was elected. Remember that ?
What I see here is a lot of excessive rhetoric that doesn’t correspond to reality. Trump is not ““too small a man to feel anything but pity.”
You meant that as an expression of contempt, if not hate.
I don’t care if you laugh at him but that is not what you are doing.
Is Hanson suggesting that Trump’s opponents should take pity on him because he’s so obviously out of his depth?
Of course not and you know better.
It’s OK. You guys have your own little echo chamber and I will leave you to it.
Meanwhile, Trump and the rest of is are trying to enact a Republican agenda.
You remind me a little of the Colonel McCormick isolationists in 1941.
Mike K (f469ea) — 6/21/2017 @ 11:56 amWow, that was a pretty quick coffee break for a workin’ man. Do you get em every half hour, or are you still on your lunch break?
Leviticus (8c06a6) — 6/21/2017 @ 12:19 pmAnyway, any update as to whether it’s okay or not okay for us to call the President of the United states a liar and question his character?
Leviticus (8c06a6) — 6/21/2017 @ 12:21 pmMike K:
I meant what I explained to you, repeatedly, that I don’t hate Trump. I pity him because he has a poor character: He bullies people to get what he wants, he enjoys making fun of others, he calls people liars but gets offended and attacks when he is called out for lies, and he has said his goals are to get even.
Trump is President and I want him to succeed when he acts like a competent, committed conservative (unlike you, who wants him to enact a Republican agenda). That’s certainly an understandable goal but it’s not my goal. I don’t like Trump or trust him, but I still complimented him when he nominated Gorsuch and recently when he terminated DAPA. I gave him credit weeks ago for trying to change the Middle Eastern alliances, especially in Saudi Arabia, and yesterday for helping keep the Georgia Congressional seat.
At this point, it seems you refuse to believe anyone who disagrees with you about Trump, and that you specifically won’t believe I have principles and sincere concerns that motivate me. That is sad. I am a conservative who believes in the Constitution and trying to keep campaign promises. I’m not a fan of someone who promotes the art of the deal instead of principles. I’m not going to say Trump is great when he ignores or backtracks on his campaign promises — to stop funding PP, repeal ObamaCare, end DACA, build a Wall, stay out of Syria — and acts like the law and the Constitution are inconveniences. I will hold Trump accountable the way I would any President.
DRJ (15874d) — 6/21/2017 @ 12:59 pm@ DRJ (#352), who wrote in part:
It won’t surprise you that I agree with this, but I point it out as an example of the concision with which you put things. Spot on.
@ Dave, who wrote (#354):
You almost always overplay your hand, sir. So often, as with the comment at #354, I’ll read something you’ve written and think, “Well, that’s interesting but here’s my substantive response that I’d offer in a good-faith conversation.”
For instance, I think I agree with you in large part that there’s not (yet) a difference in kind between the scorn and delegitimization efforts being directed at Trump now by Dems, as compared to that directed at Obama by Republicans or at Dubya by Dems or at Clinton by Republicans before that. I see it as a spectrum, with 10 being the literal re-enactment of Julius Caesar and literal blood flowing down Pennsylvania Avenue. At the other extreme would be the coronation of a POTUS as the new President for Life and the formal subordination of the other two branches of government to his despotic rule. Fortunately for the country, we’ve never yet hit a 10 or a zero, and the needle hasn’t pegged either stop at either extreme: George Washington walked away after two terms, and Nixon resigned.
Under this sort of analysis, I’d argue that the Dems have now swung the needle farther toward the number 10 than it ever got during Dubya’s two terms, even though the Dems swung the needle farther for Dubya than they had for Bush-41, whom only the moon-battiest ever suggested be impeached.
And then I come upon a piece of disingenuous nonsense like your question whether Hanson’s suggesting that Dems take pity on Trump, or your insistence that Flynn is a spy, or your insistence that Comey isn’t a leaker — preposterous stuff, but you seem very stubbornly stuck on it once you’ve said it — that spoils my mood toward civil engagement with you like the proverbial turd in the punchbowl.
Maybe you just intend these as rhetorical sallies, as “positions one might argue” that you don’t expect us to take you as seriously arguing. That’s an okay rhetorical device, if you so flag it.
Eddie Haskell wasn’t a stupid guy, but he never had any clue of when he crossed the line from smarmy to insufferable. Did you watch that show as a kid, Dave? Don’t be Eddie Haskell. To the extent you can avoid it, you might earn some respect and have some decent interchanges here. Most of the solid regulars here haven’t given up on you and started just ignoring you yet, and I’d genuinely enjoy having more commenters here who can hold up their side (without being Eddie Haskell). I intend this in a constructive spirit, sir, but I do acknowledge that you’re nevertheless likely to take offense, because no one enjoys even constructively intended criticism.
I’m anything but shameless myself (although I’m pretty well defended against attempts). If I thought you were shameless, I’d not bother with further communication. And I’m not impliedly demanding any concession or agreement from you about any of this; I’m well content if you merely read it and try to consider it with an open mind, even if you reject my words.
@ nk (#364): I don’t recall you, me, DRJ, Patterico, or anyone else ever accusing Trump of stuttering. In all the gush of word salad he spews, there’s very rarely a stutter, which is actually quite remarkable if you think about it. And re the SCOAMF acronym, I never heard anyone defend Obama on the first letter. “I-I-I-I — let me be clear about this! I-I-I-I ….” He was smooth enough with the teleprompter, but why he ever got a reputation for being a gifted orator, I never understood.
Beldar (fa637a) — 6/21/2017 @ 12:59 pmBut you have single-handedly brought me back to the main website to comment about Trump.
DRJ (15874d) — 6/21/2017 @ 1:01 pm(And no, I’m not insensitive to people who have no control over their speech patterns and stutter as the result of a medical or neurological or even psychological cause. Obama isn’t a true stutterer; if he were I’d not mock him for it. I mock him instead because he could, if he used an orator’s self-discipline, have been smooth as he was when he read from the teleprompter. He was a lazy public speaker because he could depend on his base to treat everything from his lips as nectar and mana.)
Beldar (fa637a) — 6/21/2017 @ 1:05 pm@ Mike K: Don’t shortchange the implied compliment in #381!
Beldar (fa637a) — 6/21/2017 @ 1:11 pmMike K,
I think you missed his point, perhaps deliberately because it was effective.
DRJ (15874d) — 6/21/2017 @ 1:14 pmQ. What do you call human garbage that has been elected President of the United States?
A1. Mr. President.
A2. Human garbage.
I think Mike K would choose Answer 1. (Unless we are are taking about Obama.)
Me, I go with Answer 2. But then, I have never been the sort to be impressed by titles.
I consider my answer to be more typically American. But I could be wrong about that. Any way you slice it, it’s still my answer.
Patterico (3f8f5f) — 6/21/2017 @ 5:27 pmMr. Trump is not human garbage
you are incorrect cause that’s not even true
He’s a good man, and much better than obama, who was a poopy and turdy jew-hating soros toady.
like me on facebook
happyfeet (28a91b) — 6/21/2017 @ 5:40 pmIt’s not an echo chamber, and I doubt you’ll leave us to it.
You’ll keep coming, failing to deliver the apology you so patently owe me, and clucking your tongue at the terrible disrespect I show to the venerable and so honorable Donald J. Trump.
You can’t stay away — any more than you can acknowledge that you were wrong and apologize for misstating my position. It’s who you are now. And that’s a shame.
Patterico (3f8f5f) — 6/21/2017 @ 5:47 pmSince he is in fact a liar of immoral character, it’s cool with me. You might make snowflakes like Mike K upset though. He demands a certain respect for people elected President. Who are Republicans.
Patterico (3f8f5f) — 6/21/2017 @ 5:52 pmOr claim to be. Claiming to be is good enough.
Patterico (3f8f5f) — 6/21/2017 @ 5:53 pmI suspect Mike K wants to be banned so he can run around the Internet complaining that he got banned here. It’s not going to happen, Mike K. You and your (currently dishonest and nasty, I hate to say) commentary will always be welcome here. If being banned is your sole goal in hanging around insulting me and lying about what I say, that goal will not be achieved.
It’s sad to see what’s happened to you, though. You were once a gentleman and honest. Now you lie about me. It’s a stark and very disappointing change.
Patterico (3f8f5f) — 6/21/2017 @ 5:59 pmPatrick, thank you far an example of how NeverTrumpers cannot see that you and we have won.
It is just amazing that you resemble Colonel McCormick in 1941. You would betray the secret that won the battle of Midway to punish Trump.
It’s an interesting example of psychology.
Mike K (f469ea) — 6/21/2017 @ 7:54 pmDRJ, do you still deny this is hate ?
Mike K (f469ea) — 6/21/2017 @ 8:00 pmThat didn’t take long.
Patterico (3f8f5f) — 6/21/2017 @ 8:01 pmI too think it was deliberate. There is a pattern developing. It is consistent.
Patterico (3f8f5f) — 6/21/2017 @ 8:03 pmTake that short statement as an example. It is clasic trolling. DRJ has denied hating Trump. I have admitted it while acknowledging I am not proud of hating anyone. Absolutely nothing has changed, and absolutely nothing has been said to undermine our positions. But with these few words, an increasingly trollish and unpleasant person can pee on the blog and force people to either expend a bunch of words pointing out why this is nonsense, or let a false implication stand.
The tactics of a leftist. I guess Trumpers are serious about adopting the underhanded tactics of the left and this is one example. Happyfeet’s simplistic repetitive cultish ramblings are another form of leftist tactic.
Patterico (3f8f5f) — 6/21/2017 @ 8:09 pm380. Beldar (fa637a) — 6/21/2017 @ 12:59 pm
Sammy Finkelman (2b1acb) — 6/21/2017 @ 8:14 pmBut with these few words, an increasingly trollish and unpleasant person can pee on the blog and force people to either expend a bunch of words pointing out why this is nonsense, or let a false implication stand.
Patrick, I have stayed away during the worst of your Trump hysteria.
It’s OK. I don’t have to be here.
I just think it is interesting to see the psychology illustrated here by you, mostly. I asked DRJ if she still denied that there was Trump hatred as an obvious phenomenon here. She can say she doesn’t hate him. She just uses expressions that strongly suggest it but I will accept her denial.
I think you folks are an interesting example of something that is mostly limited to Democrats.
It has led a few of their supporters to shoot at Republican Congressmen in hopes of overturning the majority.
The Democrats frantically tried to defeat a fairly weak candidate in GA 06 to punish Trump.
I just wonder what you would do.
If you don’t ban me from looking, I will come by without commenting. I certainly would not want to be responsible for any heart attacks or other conseqeunces of unrequited rage.
I have always been a bit interested in pathology, even psychological versions.
I wish you well.
Mike K (f469ea) — 6/21/2017 @ 8:30 pmYou folks would rather have Hillary as president and anti-Gorsuch on Supreme Court. Why?
brylun (60e4f2) — 6/22/2017 @ 3:22 amPresident Trump is ruining the democrat party. Cheers.
mg (31009b) — 6/22/2017 @ 3:45 amwhoever this “patterico” commentor is, he or she appears to be having somr sort of mental breakdown. sad..
Joe Maga (1b57be) — 6/22/2017 @ 4:00 am— What does it mean to be a Trumpkin?
nk (dbc370) — 6/22/2017 @ 4:15 am— A person so deeply in love with Trump that he thinks that anybody else whose heart (and other parts of his anatomy) do not burn fiercely with the same love is crazy.
There is no such thing as banning someone from looking. And trolls like you don’t stop commenting. That’s what makes you a troll. (Well, that, and deliberately misstating my position, and refusing to apologize even when it’s been carefully explained to you.)
You are a troll now. That’s what you do. It is in your nature. You will not stop. You’ll continue to push away those you were close to, and tell yourself it’s everyone else’s fault but your own. What you won’t do, for sure, is stop commenting.
Patterico (3f8f5f) — 6/22/2017 @ 4:56 amMike K, you accused me of supporting the Ninth Circuit’s policy when I specifically said I disagreed with it. Then I explained it to you and you continued to assert it even after the explanation.
It may not be a psychological disorder, but it is dishonest of you.
Patterico (3f8f5f) — 6/22/2017 @ 5:15 amAt first I thought it was a misunderstanding, but now I think it’s deliberate.
And for someone with your distinguished commenting background, that is a disappointing conclusion for me to reach. But that’s where we are.
Patterico (3f8f5f) — 6/22/2017 @ 5:19 amFor my part, I get upset when people I thought I knew disappoint me. I need to get over that.
Patterico (3f8f5f) — 6/22/2017 @ 5:21 amMike K:
That’s beyond trolling. IMO it’s defamatory to imply Patterico is a traitor and compare him to someone who published military secrets in WWII simply because he doesn’t like Trump.
And we aren’t NeverTrump. We support him when he does conservative things.
DRJ (15874d) — 6/22/2017 @ 5:47 amlong-time reader first-time caller
hi you guys i’m a axe my question then listen to the answer on the air cause i’m driving to walmart in my pickemup to get a new snorkel set for my new backyard stock tank pool
ok so do you think it’s weird how as we’ve seen the fake news propaganda slut media ratchet their fake news propaganda up to unprecedented levels, some blogs what used to focus intensively on exposing fake news have dialed back significantly on this focus?
man i think it’s kooky but what does it mean ok bye you guys mega dead toes
happyfeet (28a91b) — 6/22/2017 @ 5:55 amMike K 391,
Are you aware your link is not about McCormick? It goes to an Althouse comment.
DRJ (15874d) — 6/22/2017 @ 6:00 amsoftly softly pitter-pat a certain credulousness crept in and snuggled up in the kitty bed for long naps where skepticism once rested vigilantly
happyfeet (28a91b) — 6/22/2017 @ 6:09 amHere is the story of McCormick and his newspaper’s reports on Midway, for those who are interested.
DRJ (15874d) — 6/22/2017 @ 6:12 amAnd here is a layman’s psychological analysis of McCormick. Briefly, he was a conservative Republican during Roosevelt’s New Deal who owned and ran the Chicago Tribune until his death in 1955. He was (not surprisingly) a strong supporter of free speech and the press. He was also from an influential and wealthy family, pro-American and an isolationist.
DRJ (15874d) — 6/22/2017 @ 6:26 amIf Trump had been President, instead of FDR, he would have tweeted it out before the Tribune did. And his Executive Order to intern enemy aliens would have resulted in three bewildered Javanese families wondering what he had against Indonesians.
nk (dbc370) — 6/22/2017 @ 6:37 amMike K, it’s odd to me that so many Trump fans deny that’s what they are. As though this is some sort of tactic to convey this degree of devotion (and hostility to critics) is a mainstream thing folks show even if they don’t really support Trump. After all, you’re just saying this because Trump was elected.
But no, you have an excessive level of support for a politician if you’re this upset that he’s being criticized, much of which is by nice folks who have ideological complaints you obviously understand. You’re a smart guy… I’ve been reading you for years.
Own what you’re doing here. You’re beating the drum for a politician. If you don’t want to own that, consider that you should relax on doing it. I’ve been more passionate about politics than I need to be before. It’s easy to get there with the best intentions but it’s miserable. Politicians let you down, and the regular folks out there who had complained should be respected. This is where I always get frustrated, not only with Trump fans, but a lot of the politically zealous: they lack respect. It’s why I always got tired of Haiku when he was so crazy for Romney. He just couldn’t bring himself to respect people who weren’t right there with him.
Maybe I’m wired differently.
Dustin (ba94b2) — 6/22/2017 @ 6:50 amToday in Iowa, Trump called for immigrants to be banned from welfare for 5 years:
i support this and I think is is a direct consequence of Trump’s inability to implement his travel ban. It appears — or at least I hope — he’s learning to come up with better, more carefully crafted policies that he will roll out in prepared speeches instead of random tweets. (He is still tweeting about fake news, Democratics, and Russia, but his tweets about his speech in Iowa are benign. Yea!) Hopefully this time he won’t screw up an important policy with unscripted bombast.
DRJ (15874d) — 6/22/2017 @ 7:09 amaustralia is very careful about not letting in a bunch of riff-raff and they even snookered obama into taking a bunch of undesirables off their hands
happyfeet (a037ad) — 6/22/2017 @ 8:24 amNew Zealand has a BMI upper limit. For both exclusion and deportation.
Do you think they don’t want them looking too tasty to the Maoris?
nk (dbc370) — 6/22/2017 @ 8:57 amYou are hilarious today, nk. Did you eat your Wheaties?
Interestingly, even though it happened 75 years ago, McCormick and his Midway story are still in the news, and also the courts. And bloggers who are literally related to the people involved are writing fascinating posts about them.
DRJ (15874d) — 6/22/2017 @ 9:12 amIt occurs to me that Trump may have tweeted he was being investigated because he saw it on TV and believed it and/or it made him angry.
That would be ironic, if true. The most powerful man in the world (who has access to the highest level secrets and people who will jump to provide them to him) may have watched a TV report (from sources he repeatedly claims provide FAKE NEWS!), and then he tweeted about it and hurt only himself.
DRJ (15874d) — 6/22/2017 @ 9:19 amActually, I’m in a bad mood, DRJ. My mechanics, that I trusted, have moved on and I had to take my car to the
nk (dbc370) — 6/22/2017 @ 9:36 amdealerstealership. You know what that means. Triple what the repair is worth. I’m really sublimating.I am so sorry, nk. I do understand, in a backhanded way. Yesterday I took my favorite car to my favorite mechanic and even though I know I am going to have to pay a lot of money for the repairs it needs, I was happy because I know I can trust him to do a good job at a fair price. It doesn’t often make me happy to spend money but I am happy about this, and I would be unhappy to be in your shoes.
DRJ (15874d) — 6/22/2017 @ 9:46 amThank you, DRJ. I’m ok. If nothing else, car dealers make feel better about having defended child molesters, drug dealers and prostitutes, in my early career.
nk (dbc370) — 6/22/2017 @ 10:08 amnk, I always take my car to the dealership. Half the time they would have to fix for free because of the warranty. And their prices seem to be about the same as everyone else for routine stuff.
Can you get hold of your old mechanic? Unless he’s passed on the great garage in the sky, he can at least suggest someone you can go to.
kishnevi (2f2588) — 6/22/2017 @ 10:21 am419-421, what you feel about mechanics, I feel about dentists. Im a bit nervous that my own regular dentist has joined the exodus out of Illinois, seeing that I’ve had 2 appointments need to get pushed back.
urbanleftbehind (5eecdb) — 6/22/2017 @ 10:21 amI never take my car to a dealer any more. I have a mechanic I trust and that is worth a lot.
Actually, I just remembered that I did have to take it to the dealer to get a radio replaced because my mechanic could not do that. Not a good experience.
Patterico (3f8f5f) — 6/22/2017 @ 10:23 amYup. I get upset when I allow someone to push my buttons. It usually happens only with people who have enough of a background that I think they can be reached. I can dismiss someone who has always been a troll very easily. Someone who I know is capable of not being a troll, but acts like one and persists — I let that upset me too much.
I am going to work on it. Life is too short.
Patterico (3f8f5f) — 6/22/2017 @ 10:29 amUnless he’s passed on the great garage in the sky
The owner did, and I don’t know where the mechanics went.
nk (dbc370) — 6/22/2017 @ 10:34 amhttp://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/jun/19/noncitizen-illegal-vote-number-higher-than-estimat
narciso (d1f714) — 6/22/2017 @ 10:43 am418. DRJ (15874d) — 6/22/2017 @ 9:19 am
Well, something like that is presumed to have hapepned with the “wiretapping” allegation directly or indirectly. It all started with Mark Levin two days or so before.
The question is, when he tweeted that, did he doubt its truthfulness? He could still tweet like that even if so. Uncertainty about the truth has not stopped Trump before.
Sammy Finkelman (f61675) — 6/22/2017 @ 10:47 amTrump has now announced:
But, he added, who knows, maybe somebody else recorded them.
Sammy Finkelman (f61675) — 6/22/2017 @ 10:55 amIt helps to keep in mind that that there are also those who will inevitably be disappointed in us as well. Such is the affliction of human frailty we bear. The mark of the fallen man belongs to us all. Recognizing that in ourselves first makes it less upsetting when we see it in others. In fact, it reminds us of our own imperfections and the work we need to do as we stumble through life on our feet of clay.
Dana (023079) — 6/22/2017 @ 10:57 amAlthough the context seems to limit its applicibality, there is a teaching in the Talmud that might apply to many things and many people everywhere: that if you find a person who consistently and loudly accuses other people of a specific fault, you may be sure that person himself suffers from the same flaw.
kishnevi (2f2588) — 6/22/2017 @ 11:14 am“Oho!” said the pot to the kettle;
“You are dirty and ugly and black!
Sure no one would think you were metal,
Except when you’re given a crack.”
“Not so! not so!” kettle said to the pot;
nk (dbc370) — 6/22/2017 @ 11:29 am“‘Tis your own dirty image you see;
For I am so clean – without blemish or blot –
That your blackness is mirrored in me.”
This is true.
That said, I do not accept that my behavior has been or ever will be such that I deliberately go around misstating people’s positions as a trolling device. If I start to disappoint in that way, let me know because that’s when it’s time to hang it up.
Patterico (3f8f5f) — 6/22/2017 @ 3:28 pmThat won’t ever happen.
DRJ (15874d) — 6/22/2017 @ 3:54 pmAnd we aren’t NeverTrump. We support him when he does conservative things.
DRJ (15874d) — 6/22/2017 @ 5:47 am
Please forgive me if I doubt this.
I am trying not to pick fights but it seems hard around here,
I would strongly suggest, although I doubt anyone will take my advice, that you read Pat Buchanan’s new book about Nixon.
I know no one here is interested in my opinion but, if anyone should by chance be interested, read that book. It explains a lot.
Now, I will leave you all alone. I know you do not want my participation. Like HuffPo.
Mike K (f97920) — 6/22/2017 @ 4:34 pmPatrick,
Oh gosh, I certainly wasn’t suggesting that that has been the case, or will be the case. Rather, I was simply assessing that all of us, at one point or another, disappoint. It doesn’t have to be the result of anything calculated or deliberate, but just simply being human and all the frailties and fallibility that entails. It’s an important distinction. One that I didn’t think I needed to make but am glad to make here.
Dana (023079) — 6/22/2017 @ 4:47 pmI did not think you’d were insinuating that, Dana.
Patterico (3f8f5f) — 6/22/2017 @ 5:05 pmnk – St. Nicholas Magazine 1876?
mg (31009b) — 6/22/2017 @ 5:19 pmLove it
kishnevi (2f2588) — 6/22/2017 @ 11:14 am
I think Abba Eban said that at some point in the United Nations, but I didn’t catch or don’t remmeber where that was from. This is going to be hard to track down.
Sammy Finkelman (f61675) — 6/23/2017 @ 3:29 pmISIS blew the 800 or so year old grand mosque in Mosul where Baghdadi first proclaimed himwelf caliph. It’s an important principle of the Islamic religion never to destroy amosque, which sometimes creates trouble. (ISIS claimed the United States bombed it)
Iraqi troops were anticipating it. One thing to remmeber here is, with ISIS what counts is how suddenly their defeat comes. Raqqa is not heir last stronghold. That’s to the southeast.
Sammy Finkelman (f61675) — 6/23/2017 @ 3:49 pmI think Trump almost doesn’t remember why he mad ethat first “tapes” tweet. It was to prevent Comey from making up accusations against him, at least when he had to testify. It also maybe forced him to testify.
Sammy Finkelman (f61675) — 6/23/2017 @ 3:50 pm