Patterico's Pontifications

4/14/2025

Oval Office Meeting Today Was. . . Unbelievable, To Say The Least

Filed under: General — Dana @ 5:53 pm



[guest post by Dana]

What?? An American president told El Salvador’s President Bukele that our “homegrown” criminals should be deported to his prisons and that Bukele will need to build five additional prisons because what he has isn’t going to be enough:

To be clear, an American president is suggesting that we start renditioning Americans to prisons in foreign countries. If the foreign nationals, who were here legally, yet were picked up and sent to CECOT, didn’t get their due process, do you really think the “homegrown” (Americans) that some Trump loyalist decides they need to go, will get their due process? The whole thing is just unbelievable, un-American, and illegal. Does this mean that American citizenship is provisional now? Are we all going to share this particular brand of vulnerability, being subject to the whims of a corrupt president and his corrupt administration?

Now I know some of you are going to tell me, stop overreacting, he was just joking. Oh really? This is the same administration that decided to have Salvadoran Kilmar Abrego Garcia deported to El Salvador, despite an immigration court order against him being sent there because of the risk of persecution. This is the same administration that sent a gay hairdresser who was not a gang member to that hellhole. This is also the same administration that made the decision to pay El Salvador $6 million a year to take Venezuelan deportees and alleged (Tren de Aragua and MS-13) gang members to CECOT. Some of whom had never been convicted or even charged with a felony. Why would anyone think laws would be followed given what has happened?

Which reminds me: As you know the Supreme Court last week ordered the Trump administration to “facilitate” the return of Abrego Garcia. The administration believes it has no legal obligation to return Abrego Garcia. So, today, during the Oval Office meeting, Bukele said he is not asking for Abrego Garcia to be returned to the U.S., thus he couldn’t be returned. What?? Read the crazy rationalization below.

First, the set up:

The Justice Department has conceded in court documents that Abrego Garcia was deported to El Salvador due to an “administrative error.” The Supreme Court said last week that the U.S. must “facilitate” his release.

That simply means that if El Salvador asks to send him back, the U.S. has to help, administration officials argued today — not that the U.S. has to do anything proactive to rectify its error.

“If they wanted to return him, we would facilitate it, meaning provide a plane,” Attorney General Pam Bondi said in the Oval Office.

What happened today:

El Salvador’s president, Nayib Bukele, said he’s not asking.

“The question is preposterous,” Bukele said at the White House today. “How can I smuggle a terrorist into the United States? I don’t have the power to return him to the United States.”

Finally:

The two leaders have created a circular logic in which no one has the ability to do what the Supreme Court said must be done.

The Justice Department is also arguing in legal filings that courts don’t have the power to dictate specific steps to the executive branch. So, effectively, no one can initiate this process.

This is utterly preposterous. And it’s not rocket science. Remember that $6 million dollars Trump is paying Bukele? If Trump was seriously interested in following the Court’s order, he could easily threaten to cut off the millions of dollars until Bukele returns Abrego Garcia to the U.S. I’m pretty sure Bukele would find a way to get it done asap.

This is happening right in front of us, without fear or shame or concern about legalities. And without accountability for defying a court order.

—Dana

162 Responses to “Oval Office Meeting Today Was. . . Unbelievable, To Say The Least”

  1. Hello.

    Dana (d63ad5) — 4/14/2025 @ 5:54 pm

  2. > If the foreign nationals, who were here legally, yet were picked up and sent to CECOT, didn’t get their due process, do you really think the “homegrown” (Americans) that some Trump loyalist decides they need to go, will get their due process?

    Obviously not.

    > The whole thing is just unbelievable, un-American, and illegal.

    Not to mention profoundly immoral and evil.

    > Does this mean that American citizenship is provisional now?

    Yes.

    > Are we all going to share this particular brand of vulnerability, being subject to the whims of a corrupt president and his corrupt administration?

    Apparently, yes.

    The constitutional Republic has fallen. Welcome to the soft dictatorship.

    aphrael (3456ea) — 4/14/2025 @ 7:10 pm

  3. We can house trumpsters in cuba, nicuragua and yemen after 2028!

    asset (a01ca7) — 4/14/2025 @ 7:14 pm

  4. Maybe hit US citizens with drone strikes instead of deporting them, so that folks can feel more comfortable with it.

    lloyd (ad7579) — 4/14/2025 @ 7:27 pm

  5. @4 To many trumpsters all the drones flying around there would be a lot of collateral damage when they tried to vote. Maybe everyone vote by mail?

    asset (a01ca7) — 4/14/2025 @ 7:30 pm

  6. I forgot to put this in the post, but how is it that Trump can unilaterally designate that $6 million be taken out of Treasury to pay to Bukele without Congressional approval or an actual law stating it is to be done?

    Dana (10fad2) — 4/14/2025 @ 7:38 pm

  7. Maybe hit US citizens with drone strikes instead of deporting them, so that folks can feel more comfortable with it.

    lloyd (ad7579) — 4/14/2025 @ 7:27 pm

    U.S. citizens shouldn’t comfortable with foreign nationals legally here being picked up and deported to a hellish prison in a country that we may be illegally paying the government to hold them there for us. And god forbid actual American citizens be sent to the same place . And none given their legal right due process.

    Dana (b1d0fc) — 4/14/2025 @ 7:43 pm

  8. I guess I should’ve used a sarc tag.

    lloyd (805477) — 4/14/2025 @ 7:58 pm

  9. “How can I smuggle a terrorist into the United States? I don’t have the power to return him to the United States.”

    He – in fact they both are – insulting our intelligence with that.

    Sammy Finkelman (975ccb) — 4/14/2025 @ 8:15 pm

  10. > If the foreign nationals, who were here legally, yet were picked up and sent to CECOT, didn’t get their due process, do you really think the “homegrown” (Americans) that some Trump loyalist decides they need to go, will get their due process?

    That’s exactly what Supreme Court Justice Sonia Sotomayor said could happen as an example of a “horrible.’

    Of course, Trump is a long way from doing that.

    Sammy Finkelman (975ccb) — 4/14/2025 @ 8:35 pm

  11. Timothy Snyder…

    1/4. On the White House’s theory, if they abduct you, get you on a helicopter, get to international waters, shoot you in the head, and drop your corpse into the ocean, that is legal, because it is the conduct of foreign affairs.

    2/4. The entire practice of the Holocaust of the Jews involved zones of statelessness. It is easier to move people away from law than it is to remove law from people. Almost all of the killing took place in artificially created stateless zones.

    Paul Montagu (84042b) — 4/14/2025 @ 8:58 pm

  12. how is it that Trump can unilaterally designate that $6 million be taken out of Treasury …

    Start here: https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2011/05/20/136505202/congress-presses-obama-on-libya-as-60-day-war-powers-deadline-arrives

    BuDuh (b9a166) — 4/14/2025 @ 9:15 pm

  13. @lloyd why does Obama having done a bad thing (which theoretically he could’ve been investigated and charged for after his administration was over, or sued by the family over, though not any more because performed as part of his duties as president) excuses Trump doing a bad thing?

    Nic (120c94) — 4/14/2025 @ 9:39 pm

  14. He’s trying to gaslight you into thinking that everyone was fine with it.

    Davethulhu (4f2710) — 4/14/2025 @ 10:24 pm

  15. Donnie is a fickle boy.

    Putin can’t be too pleased with him playing footsies with a younger dictator of the sultry Latin type.

    nk (bb1548) — 4/15/2025 @ 2:54 am

  16. Here’s the latest DHS counsel filing on Garcia:\https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.mdd.578815/gov.uscourts.mdd.578815.74.0_2.pdf

    One thing I’ve noticed is that it appears that because of his MS13 affiliation (a designated terrorist organization), his protective order doesn’t apply.

    whembly (b7cc46) — 4/15/2025 @ 6:13 am

  17. In terrorem, literally “in fear” but meaning for the purpose of scaring people.

    Sturm Gruppe Lippenfüller wants all this publicity. To scare people. Illegals into self-deporting and others to just scared.

    “Plump Lips” was already running her own publicity campaign, herself posing for the cameras in El Salvador, even before the Garcia “oopsie”.

    nk (314b65) — 4/15/2025 @ 7:49 am

  18. Patterico, 4 days ago…

    Many people are, in my view naïvely, claiming that Trump would not choose to take on the Supreme Court in the Abrego Garcia case because it’s a loser for him. I think he may see this as a chance to establish possibly the most important principle of his entire presidency. 1/

    Add up everything that Trump is claiming: he can decide who is an alien enemy with no judicial review; he can “mistakenly“ deport people to a foreign prison without consequence; and (he hopes) he can convince the courts not to interfere when he says he can’t get them back. 2/

    If he can establish those three points, he will have the ability to effectively throw any critic of his, citizen or no, into a foreign prison for potentially the rest of their lives. And no court can stop him. All that remains is finding agents who will carry these orders out. 3/

    I think the Supreme Court’s decision in the Abrego Garcia case hints that six justices may allow Trump to get away with failing to bring Abrego Garcia back, by claiming either that Bukele won’t do it, or that it harms foreign policy interests too much to make him really try. 5/

    Meanwhile, what’s the downside in stonewalling? Trump‘s base likes the concept of torturing brown people, and as Ed Whelan points out, fighting the return of Abrego Garcia serves his interests in other ways [which is that Garcia would give a firsthand account of conditions in the prison, likely violating the 8th Amendment]. 6/

    It is, of course, possible that my cynicism is misplaced. But I rarely go wrong by assuming the worst about Donald Trump. The antics of DOJ today do much to confirm my suspicions, I think. 7/

    Continued defiance would also have the pleasing side effect of giving Trump the chance to test the Supreme Court’s resolve in a low-stakes case. I think he senses weakness in their tributes to the importance of foreign policy, and not forcing him to “effectuate“ the return. 8/

    Paul Montagu (84042b) — 4/15/2025 @ 8:19 am

  19. This is one of Andy McCarthy’s better pieces, in part he lays out a few facts that were new to me, and his reasoning is solid, IMO.

    Among the most laughable of Bukele’s claims today, and of the administration’s undoubtedly choreographed failure to correct him, was that he has no power to return Abrego Garcia to the United States. As I detailed in the column today, when Bukele’s own Ministry of Public Affairs announced the agreement with the Trump administration to take custody of federal prisoners, it specified that (a) the agreement was for temporary detention, a period of just one year, and (b) that by the conclusion of that period, the United States would make a final “decision on [the detainees’] long-term disposition” (emphasis added).

    Consequently, it is the basic assumption of the agreement Bukele himself negotiated with Secretary of State Marco Rubio that the United States government maintains ultimate control over the detainees currently held in Bukele’s prison. That necessarily means those prisoners could end up back in the United States.

    And pay no attention to Bukele’s inane misdirection: The agreement does not contemplate that he or his government would physically bring (or “smuggle”) prisoners back into the United States; it contemplates that his government will, sometime in the next year, turn the prisoners over to American agents (probably in San Salvador), or transfer the prisoners at the direction of the Trump administration (or, perhaps, keep them in El Salvador for some additional period of time, assuming the Trump administration pays for it — as it has paid $6 million for the current arrangement).

    Tellingly, Bukele’s remarks apparently did not delve into the terms of his custody cooperation agreement with the Trump administration.

    Bukele also did not claim that the Salvadoran government had brought charges of any kind against Abrego Garcia. Such a development would not excuse the U.S. government’s illegal repatriation; there is a legal process under federal law for extraditing a person (whether an alien or a citizen) to face foreign charges. On that point, there has been a good deal of loose talk by the Trump administration that Abrego Garcia is a member of MS-13, but that claim has never even been charged in court, much less proven. There was no indication today that El Salvador has formally accused Abrego Garcia of MS-13 membership.

    To be clear, because Abrego Garcia is a removable alien, it would not be necessary to establish his MS-13 membership in order to deport him legally. Of course, if the DOJ and DHS could establish Abrego Garcia’s MS-13 membership, then the Trump administration could remove him under immigration law because MS-13 (since February) has been formally designated as a terrorist organization. But as of now, Abrego Garcia denies that he is a member of that gang, and our government has not proved that he is. Indeed, as Judge Paula Xinis and the Fourth Circuit have detailed, the evidence that the government presented on that point is weak; and in the proceedings before Judge Xinis, the DOJ withdrew a claim that Abrego Garcia is a danger to the community, a reversal that is hard to believe the DOJ would make if it had convincing evidence of MS-13 membership.

    If Abrego Garcia is returned to the United States, the government would have to prove that he is a member of MS-13 in order to deport him under the terrorism designation. As I’ve explained in connection with the Venezuelan deportees the administration accuses of membership in Tren de Aragua, a court would not question the State Department’s designation of a terrorist organization, but the alien would be entitled to mount a habeas corpus challenge to the government’s allegation that he is a member of the designated group and thus subject to deportation.

    Assuming the government lacks sufficient evidence to connect Abrego Garcia to MS-13, it may still deport him because he is a removable illegal alien. It just may not deport him to El Salvador. That point, as I’ve previously noted, raises the question of whether AG Bondi could revisit and reverse the immigration judge’s 2019 withholding of removal ruling. That’s a complicated issue, so I’ll address it in a separate post.

    After Bukele said “smuggle”, no one in the Oval Office challenged his comment, and “smuggle” would imply that the US did not want Mr. Garcia returned, which is the opposite of “facilitate” in the Supreme Court decision.

    Paul Montagu (84042b) — 4/15/2025 @ 11:32 am

  20. One thing I’ve noticed is that it appears that because of his MS13 affiliation (a designated terrorist organization), his protective order doesn’t apply.

    whembly (b7cc46) — 4/15/2025 @ 6:13 am

    An affiliation not supported by any direct facts.

    The allegation appears to stem from two documents that were introduced before (immigration judge Elizabeth) Kessler: a federal I-213 form (Record of Deportable/Inadmissible Alien), filled out by ICE, and a form generated by the Prince George’s Police Department, called a Gang Field Interview Sheet (GFIS). The latter had been entered into the Prince George’s Police Department database at 6:47 p.m. on March 28, 2019—about four hours after police met Abrego Garcia for the first time—according to Abrego Garcia’s recent complaint.

    The government has not introduced either the I-213 or GFIS form in its defense of Abrego Garcia’s recent legal proceedings. The descriptions of those documents provided here are based on characterizations of them provided by Kessler in her ruling and Abrego Garcia’s current attorney in his complaint.

    Apparently relying on the assertions of the I-213 form, which, in turn, apparently relied on the assertions of the GFIS, Judge Kessler wrote: “The Respondent was arrested in the company of other ranking gang members and was confirmed to be a ranking member of the MS-13 gang by a proven and reliable source.”

    But Kessler—even while crediting the government’s claim of gang membership—acknowledged that the two documents were, in at least one respect, glaringly “at odds” with one another. The federal I-213 form claimed that Abrego Garcia had been detained “in connection with a murder investigation,” while the GFIS form said he and the others had been arrested because they were “loitering outside of a Home Depot,” as Kessler wrote.

    Kessler found that both documents were admissible in immigration court, notwithstanding the objection of Abrego Garcia’s then-attorney, Chicas, who protested that he’d not been permitted to cross-examine the detective whose accusations seemed to underlie both.
    ………
    ………(S)he found ICE’s accusation about his gang membership “trustworthy.” She continued:

    Although the Court is reluctant to give evidentiary weight to the Respondent’s clothing as an indication of gang affiliation, the fact that a “past, proven, and reliable source of information” verified the Respondent’s gang membership, rank, and gang name is sufficient to support that the Respondent is a gang member, and the Respondent has failed to present evidence to rebut that assertion.

    Kessler did not explain in her ruling what she meant about Abrego Garcia’s clothing. But Abrego Garcia’s recent complaint, by attorney Sandoval-Moshenberg, fills in that eyebrow-raising detail—as well as several others:

    The GFIS explained that the only reason to believe Plaintiff Abrego Garcia was a gang member was that he was wearing a Chicago Bulls hat and a hoodie; and that a confidential informant advised that he was an active member of MS-13 with the Westerns clique. … According to the Department of Justice and the Suffolk County District Attorney’s Office, the “Westerns” clique operates in Brentwood, Long Island, in New York, a state that Plaintiff Abrego Garcia has never lived in.

    So the uncross-examined detective’s accusation came from an unidentified informant who was also, perforce, uncross-examined—a second layer of hearsay.
    ………
    Then the complaint adds yet another disturbing detail:

    His attorney also contacted the [Prince George’s Police Department] Inspector General requesting to speak to the detective who authored the GFIS sheet, but was informed that the detective had been suspended. A request to speak to other officers in the Gang Unit was declined.

    In the recent Maryland federal court litigation, the government has not contested, through introduction of evidence, any of the specific accusations of Abrego Garcia’s complaint. ………
    ………

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 4/15/2025 @ 11:56 am

  21. “One thing I’ve noticed is that it appears that because of his MS13 affiliation (a designated terrorist organization), his protective order doesn’t apply.”

    The protective order applies until a court (not DOJ) says it doesn’t apply.

    Davethulhu (14e9e4) — 4/15/2025 @ 12:19 pm

  22. Yet another attempt to bypass due process.

    Davethulhu (14e9e4) — 4/15/2025 @ 12:19 pm

  23. As noted in the McCarthy piece, it was never proven in court that Garcia was affiliated with MS-13.
    Rather, the judge in the 2019 case ruled that “the Court finds the Respondent credible”.

    Paul Montagu (84042b) — 4/15/2025 @ 12:26 pm

  24. Will Chamberlain
    @willchamberlain
    The story of Kilmar Abrego Garcia is not about the wrongful deportation of a Maryland father. It’s about the abuse of our immigration system by illegal migrants, the lawyers who help them lie, and the nonprofits who agitate to keep them in the country.

    Abrego Garcia crossed into our country illegally in 2012 – by his own admission. He did not apply for asylum. He didn’t show up at an embassy or at a port of entry to go through any kind of legal process. He just crossed.

    Finally, the authorities found him in 2019, after he’d been living in the country illegally for seven years. He was set to be deported. He asked for bond – it was denied, because there was evidence that he was a member of MS-13, and he could not prove that he was not a danger to the community.

    And yet somehow, this longtime illegal alien, who was denied bond, managed to avoid being deported. How?

    By concocting what, by any objective measure, looks like a preposterous set of lies.

    Abrego Garcia claimed that if he were deported, his life would be in danger. You see, he claims that he fled El Salvador in 2011 because his mother’s pupusa business was being extorted by the Eighteenth Street Gang. And yes, that pupusa business closed, but no matter – the Eighteenth Street Gang was still threatening to kill him in 2019, he claimed.

    Sure, he had no corroborating evidence whatsoever to back up his fantastical and highly convenient claims. No matter – an immigration judge said ok, granted him withholding of removal, and sent this removable illegal alien – who another immigration judge had found was likely in MS-13 – back into our community.

    What on earth happened here? The indictment of our immigration system is not that now, 13 years after his initial illegal crossing, Abrego Garcia has finally been returned to his home country. The scandal is that he was able to stay here so long illegally – and that EVEN AFTER HE WAS DETAINED BY ICE, he managed to stay in the country for six further years. Somehow, on the verge of being sent home, he managed to figure out exactly what to say to stay in the country.

    This was always a sham. And if the Democrats want to make him a martyr, Republicans should lean in. Because he’s not an example of how our country wrongs illegal aliens; he’s an example of how illegal aliens and their lawyers make a mockery of our country.

    100% correct

    NJRob (eb56c3) — 4/15/2025 @ 12:51 pm

  25. Did they rulethat the respondent was credible in his claim that he was not a member of MS-13? Or only that he was credible in his fear of Barrio 18?

    BuDuh (b9a166) — 4/15/2025 @ 12:54 pm

  26. “100% correct”

    especially this part:

    “an immigration judge said ok, granted him withholding of removal”

    Davethulhu (14e9e4) — 4/15/2025 @ 12:59 pm

  27. This is why I started following McCarthy and stopped following Chamberlain on the X. McCarthy…

    But as of now, Abrego Garcia denies that he is a member of that gang, and our government has not proved that he is. Indeed, as Judge Paula Xinis and the Fourth Circuit have detailed, the evidence that the government presented on that point is weak; and in the proceedings before Judge Xinis, the DOJ withdrew a claim that Abrego Garcia is a danger to the community, a reversal that is hard to believe the DOJ would make if it had convincing evidence of MS-13 membership.

    In court, the judge concluded that “the Court finds the Respondent credible” and there was sufficent evidence and testimony for the judge to rule that returning him to El Salvador would be an endangerment. The Trump DOJ could’ve appealed that ruling but never did so.

    Paul Montagu (84042b) — 4/15/2025 @ 1:01 pm

  28. For those interested, here’s the start of a liveblog of the latest court hearing: https://x.com/rparloff/status/1912217820458545478

    Davethulhu (14e9e4) — 4/15/2025 @ 1:47 pm

  29. “The Jews went East.”

    Kevin M (6a8b2d) — 4/15/2025 @ 2:55 pm

  30. The constitutional Republic has fallen.

    It survived the Civil War, Jackson and FDR — all of which were said to be its doom. Trump is a lesser threat.

    Kevin M (6a8b2d) — 4/15/2025 @ 2:58 pm

  31. We can house trumpsters in cuba, nicuragua and yemen after 2028!

    This is really the point that needs to be made. Karma is a bi*ch.

    Kevin M (6a8b2d) — 4/15/2025 @ 2:59 pm

  32. foreign nationals legally here

    So, this guy was a legal immigrant? Or just here on some kind of waiver? It matters in the same way that citizenship does. Conflating someone who goes through official channels with someone who came by misused exception does this discussion no good at all.

    Kevin M (6a8b2d) — 4/15/2025 @ 3:04 pm

  33. And god forbid actual American citizens be sent to the same place . And none given their legal right due process.

    I repeat again: Trump will go too far. If he did that, could the GOP fail to impeach and convict? If they did not, and it was left to elections, there would be no GOP when they were over, and the victors would be holding trials tribunals.

    Kevin M (6a8b2d) — 4/15/2025 @ 3:07 pm

  34. Patterico is correct when he says one can never judge Trump too harshly. The last 3 months have shown that. I cannot understand why he still has supporters.

    That being said, I have more faith in the Supreme Court. I cannot believe that Thomas can countenance such, given his history, let alone the rest of them not named Alito.

    Trump can get this guy back any day he demands it. His failure to do so marks him as responsible. God help him if the guy dies down there.

    Kevin M (6a8b2d) — 4/15/2025 @ 3:15 pm

  35. The easiest way to get him back is for the courts to block ALL deportations under ANY law until he is returned.

    Kevin M (6a8b2d) — 4/15/2025 @ 3:17 pm

  36. https://nypost.com/2025/04/15/us-news/trump-admin-wont-be-held-in-contempt-over-kilmar-abrego-garcia/

    A federal judge who ordered the Trump administration to return an alleged MS-13 gang member wrongly deported to El Salvador last month ruled that she would not hold any government officials in contempt for violating her order — for now — but warned against further “gamesmanship.”

    US District Judge Paula Xinis said that the federal government failed to provide evidence detailing their efforts to return Kilmar Abrego Garcia back to the United States by April 7 after he was shipped off to El Salvador’s hellhole lockup CECOT.

    “There will be no tolerance for gamesmanship or grandstanding,” she said at a hearing in her Greenbelt, Maryland, courtroom.

    And just what is she going to do without holding somebody in contempt? Of course contempt is an extreme measure.

    “To date, what the record shows is that nothing has been done. Nothing.”

    The opposite.
    Trump is encouraging Bukele to continue to imprison Kilmar Abrego Garcia. That should be obvious to anyone with common sense and it’s almost open. Of course the government’s lawyers refer to report nothing has been done.

    Xinis called Tuesday’s hearing to question Justice Department lawyers over its disregard of court orders – including one from the US Supreme Court — to return Abrego Garcia, who was deported on March 15, against an order granting him asylum in the US.

    They were possibly or probably not aware of the standing order not to deport him at the time, but were aware they were being sued on behalf of all of them.

    Sammy Finkelman (e4ef09) — 4/15/2025 @ 3:18 pm

  37. @33 Sorry kevin latest polling shows 71% of republicans consider themselves maga (maggots) Ignorant southern white trash ex-democrat populists have taken over the republican party. Half the upper middle class/wealthy now vote social liberal democrat. AOC/Bernie are packing them in at their rallies. Minority males are leaving democrat party for trump not traditional g.o.p.

    asset (515298) — 4/15/2025 @ 3:20 pm

  38. Kevin M (6a8b2d) — 4/15/2025 @ 3:15 pm

    Patterico is correct when he says one can never judge Trump too harshly.

    Yes, you can. Like I wouldn’t imagine he is being paid off by somebody..

    But you can never rule out flagrant dishonesty.

    The last 3 months have shown that. I cannot understand why he still has supporters.

    AM Talk radio.

    God help him if the guy dies down there.

    My question is:

    If Stephen Miller says:

    https://nypost.com/2025/04/14/us-news/trump-el-salvador-president-say-deported-maryland-man-cant-be-brought-back-to-us-question-is-preposterous

    hite House deputy chief of staff for policy Stephen Miller chided Monday that it was “very arrogant, even for American media, to suggest that [Trump] would even tell El Salvador how to handle their own citizens.”

    (Something which is not true. The United States comments on human rights all the time, and is careful not to deport members of al Qaeda to bad conditions and didn’t send Nazis back to places where they could not get a fair trial)

    But if so why are they reporting that he is in good health if it of no concern to the United States?.

    Sammy Finkelman (e4ef09) — 4/15/2025 @ 3:28 pm

  39. The easiest way to get him back is for the courts to block ALL deportations under ANY law until he is returned.

    Kevin M (6a8b2d) — 4/15/2025 @ 3:17 pm

    Since immigration judges are employees of the Justice Department, I don’t see that happening. And the federal courts would have no legal basis to do so.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 4/15/2025 @ 3:29 pm

  40. Note: The Administration has reversed itself (at least for the public record – maybe not in court) on whether there was any error in deporting him.

    n an initial March 31 filing, the Trump administration stated that Abrego Garcia’s removal was due to an “administrative error” and a “clerical error,” since the October 2019 order was still in effect.

    Miller denied that claim Monday, stating that the error rested with the Justice Department lawyer who submitted the filing and was later removed from the case by Bondi.

    “That’s a big fact that all of you, most of you, have gotten wrong,” Miller told reporters ahead of Bukele’s meeting with Trump. “No one was mistakenly sent anywhere.”

    “The only mistake that was made is a [Justice Department] lawyer put an incorrect line in a legal filing [and has] since been relieved,” he said. “[Abrego Garcia] is an illegal alien. He was deported to El Salvador.”

    And people on the right keep on flatly calling him a criminal.

    Bukele, following the US classification of MS-13 as a terrorist group, called him a terrorist yesterday.

    Totally begging the question.

    But people are afraid to stick their necks out and say that is innocent because they genuinely do not know and until they do, this will go on.

    But this looks like all those cases where someone was convicted of murder who turns out to be innocent

    Sammy Finkelman (e4ef09) — 4/15/2025 @ 3:35 pm

  41. https://www.usnews.com/news/u-s-news-decision-points/articles/2025-04-15/trump-explores-sending-u-s-citizens-to-prison-in-el-salvador

    President Donald Trump says his attorney general, Pam Bondi, is looking into whether it would be legal for him to expel U.S. citizens who commit certain violent crimes to El Salvador, where he has shipped hundreds of alleged immigrant gang members to be held indefinitely in a notorious prison.

    Presumably he is talking about sending people convicted of crimes to private or foreign prisons outside the country.

    This wasn’t just yesterday. He’s been talking this up for awhile.

    https://www.politico.com/news/2025/03/21/trump-foreign-prison-threats-civil-rights-groups-027162

    Trump suggested on Truth Social that people charged with attacking Tesla could serve time in “lovely” prisons in El Salvador.

    President Donald Trump has repeatedly floated sending American prisoners to serve prison sentences outside the country — this time threatening the people charged with vandalizing Teslas.

    Sammy Finkelman (e4ef09) — 4/15/2025 @ 3:45 pm

  42. Kevin – the dude will die there, and it will not effect Trump in the slightest.

    There is no line whatsoever that he can cross where the Republicans in Congress will lift a finger to stop him.

    aphrael (38d789) — 4/15/2025 @ 3:49 pm

  43. There was no indication today that El Salvador has formally accused Abrego Garcia of MS-13 membership.

    Under martial law, they don’t need to.

    But the agreement that they would leave in one year applies to Venezuelans – but some Salvadorans were included.

    Sammy Finkelman (e4ef09) — 4/15/2025 @ 3:52 pm

  44. Like I wouldn’t imagine he is being paid off by somebody..

    Why not? His integrity?

    Kevin M (a0e048) — 4/15/2025 @ 5:52 pm

  45. There is no line whatsoever that he can cross where the Republicans in Congress will lift a finger to stop him.

    There is, and he will cross it.

    Kevin M (a0e048) — 4/15/2025 @ 5:55 pm

  46. The funny thing about Trump and DEI:

    Many who oppose DEI do so because they don’t like the “Equity” thing, the idea that “we” should nudge outcomes to achieve social justice. They have no real issue with Diversity or Inclusion, as those are acts of opportunity.

    TRUMP, however, dislikes Diversity and Inclusion, but loves the idea of Equity. Only his version is to give advantage to working class white folks at the expense of everyone else. It may be why he wants to annex Canada — lots more white people (the reverse of the Great Population Replacement idea that he also believes motivates Democrats).

    Kevin M (f8fd9d) — 4/15/2025 @ 6:01 pm

  47. Trump is not a Conservative, he’s a Radical. IF this was 1968, he’d be Abbie Hoffman (or maybe Lincoln Rockwell). He wants to destroy the current system and replace it with one that he just knows everyone would thank him for.

    Kevin M (f8fd9d) — 4/15/2025 @ 6:03 pm

  48. There is no line whatsoever that he can cross where the Republicans in Congress will lift a finger to stop him.

    There is, and he will cross it.

    Kevin M (a0e048) — 4/15/2025 @ 5:55 pm

    And congressional Republicans will still not lift a finger.

    Rip Murdock (3652c9) — 4/15/2025 @ 7:12 pm

  49. “the dude will die there”

    Wishcasting.

    lloyd (bd1ccb) — 4/15/2025 @ 7:26 pm

  50. lloyd learned a new word

    Davethulhu (313240) — 4/15/2025 @ 7:38 pm

  51. > > “the dude will die there”

    > Wishcasting.

    Really, lloyd?

    You’re honestly suggesting that i *want* this guy to die in CECOT?

    I don’t want him there at all. I want him brought back to the United States and the people who “accidentally” sent him there and then ignored a court order to bring him back thrown in prison for their violation of his civil rights.

    And here you are claiming that I want him to die because I see no path for him to ever be released, given the intransigence of both our government and the Salvadoran government on the matter.

    Go F— yourself.

    aphrael (8d5172) — 4/15/2025 @ 7:50 pm

  52. Here’s someone who died, murdered by a “Maryland man” who, like Mr. Garcia, never should’ve been in the country. But, Ms. Morin doesn’t get 1/1000th bleeding heart concern that you reserve for someone who found a judge to help him game the system seven years after he entered illegally. Your sanctimony is nowhere to be found regarding Democrats who did nothing while these murders were happening. But, let’s condemn Republicans for their reaction to a death that hasn’t happened but you’re oddly predicting. I’ll bet you didn’t even know who Ms. Morin was.

    lloyd (6fd3b8) — 4/15/2025 @ 8:01 pm

  53. Your sanctimony is nowhere to be found regarding Democrats who did nothing while these murders were happening.

    Murders and violent crime fell dramatically between 2021 and 2024.

    Murders were down almost 16% last year alone, and violent crime fell 3.3% overall.

    It is a MAGA fantasy that “Democrats did nothing while these murders were happening.” In fact, instead of wasting resources to brutalize people like Mr. Abrego Garcia, with no criminal history, the Biden administration focused on the more dangerous.

    In 2023, Biden’s Enforcement and Removal Officers “arrested 73,822 noncitizens with criminal histories; this group had 290,178 associated charges and convictions with an average of four per individual. These included 33,209 assaults; 4,390 sex and sexual assaults; 7,520 weapons offenses; 1,713 charges or convictions for homicide; and 1,655 kidnapping offenses.”

    In 2024, “ICE removed more people without legal basis to remain in the United States than it did in any other fiscal year since 2015.

    ICE continued to prioritize its enforcement resources by arresting noncitizens with criminal convictions or pending charges. Over 81,312 (71.7%) of the 113,431 arrests were of noncitizens with criminal convictions or pending charges.”

    Dave (b068d3) — 4/15/2025 @ 10:41 pm

  54. I don’t know who’s whining more about this guy. The snowflakes over at DU/media or here! When I was growing up in oklahoma in the 1950’s some children knocked on are door selling christmas cards in august to pay for their mother’s operation. This was before medicade (socialized medicine) We were poor ;but bought a couple of cards. We drove the children to the hospital to pay what they earned to the hospital. When they went to their mother’s room a nurse told another nurse don’t waste oxygen on her she has no money to pay! We on the left have to be hard to put up with this. We will cut flesh to cut meat. This is why no quarter asked or given.

    asset (320254) — 4/16/2025 @ 12:51 am

  55. On Rachel Maddow show tonight she had a whistleblower IT guy from dept. of labor who explained what is behind doge. It is not fraud and waste or even looking for illegal aliens ;but looking for sensitive and proprietary information. Also depositions and private law firms information to use against trump’s enemies.

    asset (320254) — 4/16/2025 @ 1:00 am

  56. Here’s someone who died, murdered by a “Maryland man”…

    Look! Squirrel!

    Mr. Victor-Hernandez got due process under law and he was rightfully convicted.

    Mr. Garcia didn’t murder Ms. Morin (or anyone else, and not convicted of any other crime) yet he is denied due process by a president who pledged to defend and uphold the Constituion. Funny that.

    Paul Montagu (84042b) — 4/16/2025 @ 4:31 am

  57. In 1938, German diplomat Ernst vom Rath was assassinated by Herschel Grynszpan, a 17-year-old German-born Polish Jew living in Paris. This provided Schicklgruber’s fvckboys with a pretext for Kristallnacht.

    Different century, different continent, same fvckboy thinking.

    nk (83e176) — 4/16/2025 @ 4:37 am

  58. For man also knoweth not his time: as the fishes that are taken in an evil net, and as the birds that are caught in the snare; so are the sons of men snared in an evil time, when it falleth suddenly upon them. — Ecclesiastes 9:12

    nk (83e176) — 4/16/2025 @ 5:07 am

  59. Jennifer Vasquez either lied to the court when she submitted evidence for a domestic violence protective order against Mr Garcia or she is lying now on the GoFundMe claiming he is an excellent husband as over $162K has poured in.

    You should report this out, ABC.

    Did Andy get punked or is this for real?

    Not that I want to condem the Maryland man over something unrelated to his credibility.

    BuDuh (4214e4) — 4/16/2025 @ 6:34 am

  60. Paul, maybe you can scribble “Squirrel” on Rachel Morin’s headstone.

    lloyd (ad7579) — 4/16/2025 @ 7:07 am

  61. Mr. Victor-Hernandez got due process under law and he was rightfully convicted.

    No, Paul, he wasn’t. He had an arrest warrant for murder of a woman in El Salvador, but was let through Biden’s porous border. He was accused of assault of a mother and her nine year old daughter in Los Angeles, but somehow made it to Maryland. Because he wasn’t taken into custody, charged and convicted, he went on to take away Morin’s due process and constitutional rights. Thanks to Democrat policies that your squirrel Mr. Garcia excuses you from even acknowledging.

    lloyd (64c365) — 4/16/2025 @ 7:22 am

  62. The thing that is interesting (and perhaps important) is why the Trump administration so badly wants to enshrine in law the government’s ability to make a deportation mistake and do nothing about fixing it.

    It’s reasonable to presume that they want to make lots more mistakes. Then, well, oopsie.

    Appalled (70c982) — 4/16/2025 @ 7:56 am

  63. Seriously lloyd, you’re trying the change the subject from due process to airing your grievances about brown-skinned illegals committing crimes on American soil. Biden’s incompetence and indifference was a suckass policy, there’s no argument about that.

    Victor-Hernandez was tried and feloniously convicted by by jury in a court of law, just like your Orange Leader, which is the American way, so your denial is noted. Hopefully, Victor-Hernandez will get the maximum sentence for denying Ms. Morin’s fundamental right to live.

    As I might have said before, there’s no equivalency like a bogus equivalency.

    Paul Montagu (84042b) — 4/16/2025 @ 9:37 am

  64. Absolutely tone deaf.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 4/16/2025 @ 9:37 am

  65. And congressional Republicans will still not lift a finger.

    Then they will lose 100 seats.

    Kevin M (c96dc5) — 4/16/2025 @ 9:53 am

  66. Meanwhile, in El Salvador (source Axios):

    Driving the news: Van Hollen told reporters he asked El Salvador Vice President Félix Ulloa during a meeting Wednesday why Abrego Garcia is being held if both U.S. courts and the government of El Salvador have found no evidence that he’s a member of the MS-13 gang.

    “His answer was that the Trump administration is paying El Salvador, the government of El Salvador to keep him at CECOT,” the senator said.

    What he’s saying: Van Hollen said he asked to see Abrego Garcia or to speak to him on the phone to check on his condition.

    The vice president told Van Hollen he needs to make earlier provisions to visit CECOT, the senator said. Asked if he could visit Abrego Garcia if he returns next week, the vice president said he can’t make that promise, per Van Hollen.

    The Maryland senator asked to speak to Abrego Garcia on the phone, and Ulloa said he cannot arrange that but can try to do so if the American embassy asks.

    Basically, the Trump administration is in active defiance of a court order. They may or may not choose to lie about it.

    See also the events in the Boasberg case, where he has ruled that there is probable cause that Trump is in contempt of his order. That contempt can be cured by ensuring that the Venezualians incarcerated in El Salvador have access to due process. (To ensure, you know, that they are really gang members like the administration says.)

    Appalled (70c982) — 4/16/2025 @ 11:55 am

  67. There is no line whatsoever that he can cross where the Republicans in Congress will lift a finger to stop him.

    There is, and he will cross it.

    Kevin M (a0e048) — 4/15/2025 @ 5:55 pm

    What’s the line, Kevin M?

    Dana (fa224a) — 4/16/2025 @ 12:04 pm

  68. you’re trying the change the subject from due process to airing your grievances about brown-skinned illegals committing crimes on American soil.

    “brown-skinned”

    LOL

    My beef is with white-skinned Democrats and their white-skinned apologists who think the world revolves around their squirrel du jour.

    lloyd (bd1ccb) — 4/16/2025 @ 12:16 pm

  69. Dana,

    I’m not Kevin M. I don’t know what starts the preference cascade. My best guess is that if a judge tries to TRO Trump’s tariffs, Trump will defy and, just possibly, some Republicans will find the courage to oppose.

    Looking at each new outrage, it is best to go with the slight shoulder shrug (Rip Murdock style) and realize the GOP wont likely do anything. I just believe there will be the one time when that view is wrong.

    Appalled (70c982) — 4/16/2025 @ 12:17 pm

  70. The “Maryland man” has been promoted to “citizen”

    “My hope is to visit Kilmar and check on his wellbeing and to hold constructive conversations with government officials around his release,” Van Hollen said Tuesday, according to NBC News. The senator, who is pushing for a meeting with El Salvador President Nayib Bukele, believes the Central American leader “will reconsider when he understands the full story of this illegal detention.”

    “I don’t think he wants to essentially be the president who’s kidnapped the United States citizen ,” Van Hollen told reporters, referring to Abrego Garcia’s detention in El Salvador.

    However, Abrego Garcia never had legal status while living in the United States, much less American citizenship.

    lloyd (bd1ccb) — 4/16/2025 @ 12:25 pm

  71. Appalled (70c982) — 4/16/2025 @ 12:17 pm

    and realize the GOP wont likely do anything. I just believe there will be the one time when that view is wrong.

    It’s ben said that the GOP will do something when Trump’s (doing a good job approval) rating in the polls drops into the 20s.

    Sammy Finkelman (e4ef09) — 4/16/2025 @ 12:25 pm

  72. My best guess is that if a judge tries to TRO Trump’s tariffs, Trump will defy and, just possibly, some Republicans will find the courage to oppose.

    Looking at each new outrage, it is best to go with the slight shoulder shrug (Rip Murdock style) and realize the GOP wont likely do anything. I just believe there will be the one time when that view is wrong.

    Appalled (70c982) — 4/16/2025 @ 12:17 pm

    It’s not a shoulder shrug, it’s being realistic about public opinion and congressional politics.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 4/16/2025 @ 12:30 pm

  73. there is no line whatsoever that he can cross where the Republicans in Congress will lift a finger to stop him.

    There is, and he will cross it.

    Kevin M (a0e048) — 4/15/2025 @ 5:55 pm

    ————————

    And congressional Republicans will still not lift a finger.

    Rip Murdock (3652c9) — 4/15/2025 @ 7:12 pm
    ——————————–
    Then they will lose 100 seats.

    Kevin M (c96dc5) — 4/16/2025 @ 9:53 am

    Hyperbolic.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 4/16/2025 @ 12:36 pm

  74. #68

    My beef is with white-skinned Democrats and their white-skinned apologists who think the world revolves around their squirrel du jour.

    The world revolves around Trump’s squirrel de jour. That is his second term in a nutshell.

    Appalled (70c982) — 4/16/2025 @ 12:40 pm

  75. @74 Shorter Appalled: Democracy sucks.

    lloyd (bd1ccb) — 4/16/2025 @ 12:44 pm

  76. Paul Montagu (84042b) — 4/16/2025 @ 9:37 am

    airing your grievances about brown-skinned illegals committing crimes on American soil.

    Trump himself said that there’s many more home-grown people committing crimes than illegals (because he dropped the idea of EL Salvador building more prisons to hold them) and that the same thing should happen to both of them.

    https://rollcall.com/factbase/trump/transcript/donald-trump-remarks-bilat-nayib-bukele-el-salvador-april-14-2025

    Thank you. Thank you. Well, it’s an honor to be here in the Oval Office with the president and leader of the free world. We’re very happy and we’re very eager to — and we’re a small country, but if we can help, we will do it. And we actually — that was the journalist call it, murder capital of the world into the safest country in the Western Hemisphere — if they saw the — president, you have 350 million people to liberate.
    Donald Trump 00:01:56-00:02:17 (21 sec)
    Weak (1.095)

    But to liberate 350 million people, you have to imprison some. That’s the way it works, right? You cannot just free the criminals and think crime’s going to go down magically. You have to imprison them, so you can liberate 350 million Americans that are asking for the end of crime and the end of terrorism….

    ….Question 00:24:42-00:24:46 (4 sec)
    No Signal (0)
    Would the United States be willing to pay for those facilities to be open if [Inaudible]
    Donald Trump 00:24:46-00:25:16 (30 sec)
    No StressLens
    I’d do something. We’d help them out. Yeah, we’d help them out. They’re great facilities, very strong facilities and they don’t play games. I’d like to go a step further. I mean, I said it to Pam. I don’t know what the laws are. We always have to obey the laws, but we also have homegrown criminals that push people into subways, that hit elderly ladies on the back of the head with a baseball bat when they’re not looking, that are absolute monsters.
    Donald Trump 00:25:16-00:25:23 (7 sec)
    No Signal (0.773) I’d like to include them in the group of people to get them out of the country, but you’ll have to be looking at the laws on that…)

    Question 00:36:33-00:36:42 (9 sec)
    No Signal (0)
    And just a follow up question, a clarification. You mentioned that you’re open to deporting individuals that aren’t foreign aliens, or criminals to El Salvador.
    Donald Trump 00:36:42-00:36:43 (1 sec)
    No StressLens
    Love it.
    Question 00:36:43-00:36:46 (3 sec)
    No StressLens
    Does that include potentially US citizens, fully naturalized Americans?
    Donald Trump 00:36:46-00:37:07 (21 sec)
    No Signal (0.74)
    If they’re criminals and if they hit people with baseball bats over their head, that happened to be 90 years old. And if they rape 87-year-old women in Coney Island, Brooklyn, yeah, yeah, that includes them. Why, do you think they’re

    they = American citizens. He agrees with the ACLU on that point. That they are not

    a special category of person? They’re as bad as anybody that comes in. We have bad ones too.
    Donald Trump 00:37:07-00:37:38 (31 sec)
    No StressLens
    And I’m all for it, because we can do things with the president for less money and have great security. And we have a huge prison population. We have a huge number of prisons and then we have the private prisons and some are operated well, I guess, and some aren’t. But he does a great job with that. We have others that we’re negotiating with too, but no, if it’s a homegrown criminal, I have no problem.
    Donald Trump 00:37:38-00:37:58 (20 sec)
    No Signal (0.484)
    Now, we’re studying the laws right now. Pam is studying. If we can do that, that’s good. And I’m talking about violent people. I’m talking about really bad people, really bad people, every bit as bad as the ones coming in. And I made the statement when I heard about this a long time ago now, four years ago.
    Donald Trump 00:37:58-00:38:17 (19 sec)

    Sammy Finkelman (e4ef09) — 4/16/2025 @ 12:52 pm

  77. Hyperbolic.

    In 2010 the Democrats lost 63 seats over Obamacare. Trump is way more annoying, and the GOP’s fecklessness is a prime target of the voter’s ire.

    Kevin M (54c6bd) — 4/16/2025 @ 12:56 pm

  78. Trump was even worried about losing Elise Stefanik’s seat in a special election) (Note: special elections tend to have a greater chance of party switch because the difference between the incumbent party and the opposition turnout is greater, and because it carries little or no chance of changing party control of the body for which the election is held)

    But he thinks the public will change once they see how much good his tariffs (and/or trade negotiations) are doing.

    Sammy Finkelman (e4ef09) — 4/16/2025 @ 1:06 pm

  79. #76 Shorter lloyd: Habeas corpus sucks.

    Appalled (70c982) — 4/16/2025 @ 1:07 pm

  80. 76. Trump to Bukele:

    “Home-growns are next. The home-growns. You gotta build about five more places. It’s not big enough.”

    With that, Trump is saying that home grown violent criminals outnumber migrant criminals by 5 to 1. (and that’s of course, minimizing he degree of outnumbering.)

    Sammy Finkelman (e4ef09) — 4/16/2025 @ 1:11 pm

  81. “Trump himself said that there’s many more home-grown people committing crimes than illegals (because he dropped the idea of EL Salvador building more prisons to hold them) and that the same thing should happen to both of them.”

    Trump oversold either the quantity or ease of rounding up “criminal aliens” (probably both), which is one of the reasons why we’re going through this.

    Davethulhu (14e9e4) — 4/16/2025 @ 1:41 pm

  82. Hyperbolic (that Republicans will lose 100 seats in the midterms over some outrage that Trump has done).

    In 2010 the Democrats lost 63 seats over Obamacare. Trump is way more annoying, and the GOP’s fecklessness is a prime target of the voter’s ire.

    Kevin M (54c6bd) — 4/16/2025 @ 12:56 pm

    We’ll see what happens over the next 566 days. About the only thing that would spark congressional Republican outrage is if Trump shot someone on the White House lawn on television and then denied it. Certainly his broadly supported deportations, attacks on elite institutions, etc. won’t do it.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 4/16/2025 @ 1:47 pm

  83. Trump oversold either the quantity or ease of rounding up “criminal aliens” (probably both), which is one of the reasons why we’re going through this.

    Davethulhu (14e9e4) — 4/16/2025 @ 1:41 pm

    Trump shouldn’t have limited himself to “criminal” aliens.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 4/16/2025 @ 1:48 pm

  84. It’s easy to collect people to jail when you can include people who don’t fit the description.

    And wen you wait for them to come to you, rather than go looking for them, except when you want to grab a lot of people at one time.

    Sammy Finkelman (e4ef09) — 4/16/2025 @ 1:51 pm

  85. ………. About the only thing that would spark congressional Republican outrage is if Trump shot someone on the White House lawn on television and then denied it. ………

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 4/16/2025 @ 1:47 pm

    It would depend on who that “someone” was.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 4/16/2025 @ 2:00 pm

  86. The administration believes it has no legal obligation to return Abrego Garcia.

    The Administration (except for Pam Bondi) is pretending the Supreme Court upheld a judge’s order to facilitate “his return.”

    But the judge ordered them to facilitate his release from custody.

    Once out of jail, getting him to the United States should be no problem.

    The judge is doing something before getting to contempt. Deposing people, or letting Garcia’s lawyers depose people as to who did and is doing what, It likely won’t reach the stage of contempt.

    Sammy Finkelman (e4ef09) — 4/16/2025 @ 2:04 pm

  87. The Administration (except for Pam Bondi) is pretending the Supreme Court upheld a judge’s order to facilitate “his return.”

    But the judge ordered them to facilitate his release from custody.

    That answers the puzzle of why the Administration publicized Bukele’s ridiculous answer about smuggling him to the United States.

    They wanted people to think that the judge had ordered them to facilitate “his return

    They had a legal defense for doing nothing about that but not for not trying to get him out of prison.

    You notice that return is never in quotes.

    They actually eventually confused the judge herself about what she had ordered them to “facilitate.”

    Sammy Finkelman (e4ef09) — 4/16/2025 @ 2:11 pm

  88. Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 4/16/2025 @ 1:48 pm

    Trump shouldn’t have limited himself to “criminal” aliens.

    He (or Homan) doesn’t actually. But he doesn’t talk about it because he wants popular approval.

    Ans he pretends there are so many vicious criminals – and also people released from mental institutions.

    Donald Trump 00:02:44-00:03:16 (32 sec)
    No StressLens
    Well, we had a terrible thing happen. We had an administration that allowed people to come in freely into our country, from not only South America but from all over the world, many from the Congo, in Africa, Asia, all over the world, Europe, rough parts of Europe. And they came from prisons and they came from mental institutions and they came from gangs, the gangs of Venezuela and other places.
    Donald Trump 00:03:16-00:03:43 (27 sec)
    Weak (1.018)
    And hundreds of thousands and even millions of them came. 21 million people all together, but many of the people that came just a tremendous percentage of them were criminals, in some cases, violent criminals. We had 11,088 known murderers. Half of them murdered more than one person. This was allowed by a man who, what he did to our country is just unbelievable, so we’re straightening it out.

    See: https://www.factcheck.org/2024/09/trump-vance-wrong-about-illegal-immigrant-murderers/

    It’s true that there were 13,099 noncitizens convicted of murder, as of July 21, who were not being detained by the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement.

    But the “vast majority” of them entered the country prior to the Biden administration and had their custody status determined “long before this Administration,” the Department of Homeland Security said in a statement, noting that many were in prison. Also, the noncitizens include those who entered the country legally, such as green-card holders.

    And many as children, so they are really “home grown”

    Sammy Finkelman (e4ef09) — 4/16/2025 @ 2:22 pm

  89. @83Congressional republicans threaten to sue billboard companies if they don’t take democrat campaign signs down in vulnerable republican districts intimidating the billboard companies into taking them down.(DU) Democrat party will whine instead of taking direct action to please donors.

    asset (0290f9) — 4/16/2025 @ 2:30 pm

  90. I saw two articles, ne in the New York Times one in the Wall Street Journal that give background on Bukele and EL Salvador

    https://www.nytimes.com/2025/04/09/world/americas/ronald-johnson-ambassador-el-salvador.html

    https://www.wsj.com/opinion/el-salvadors-bukele-is-a-china-ally-foreign-policy-trade-latin-america-181ece4b

    Sammy Finkelman (e4ef09) — 4/16/2025 @ 2:43 pm

  91. The withholding of removal is outdated (but now there is something new) and the Biden Administration report on Bukele’s deal with gangs was outdated (it broke down in 2021)

    Sammy Finkelman (e4ef09) — 4/16/2025 @ 2:44 pm

  92. a 2021 petition for protection from domestic violence filled out by Abrego Garcia’s wife, Jennifer Vasquez, which was obtained first by DailyMail.com, states that the alleged MS-13 member beat his wife multiple times over the years.

    In November 2020, Abrego Garcia hit Vasquez with his work boots, and in August 2020 he hit her in the eye, causing her to get a black eye, according to her petition.

    That same day Abrego Garcia started driving quickly, scaring his wife, as their one-year-old was in the back seat. ‘In the recording you can hear him yelling, insulting me, driving extreme fast,’ Vasquez told authorities.

    Later that day she left the residence they shared after being ‘afraid to be close to him,’ her request continued.

    Then in May 2021, after an argument at a gas station, the Salvadorian migrant punched and scratched his wife, ‘leaving me bleeding,’ Vasquez wrote.

    ‘I have multiple photos/videos of how [violent] he can be and all the bruises he has left me,’ she wrote…

    … The temporary protective order was deemed credible and was signed off on by Maryland Judge Lakeecia Renee Allen, the forms show.

    BuDuh (bd0933) — 4/16/2025 @ 6:23 pm

  93. If it was because she referred him to a bad hair transplant surgeon, he could run for President:

    In her 1990 divorce deposition, Ivana Trump described a similar assault that she said occurred shortly after her husband’s scalp-reduction surgery. She claimed that Trump pushed her to the floor and pulled out handfuls of her hair. Ivana initially described what followed as a rape, but later walked back on the claim. In a 1993 statement, she said, “On one occasion during 1989, Mr Trump and I had marital relations in which he behaved very differently towards me than he had during our marriage. As a woman I felt violated … I referred to this as a rape, but I do not want my words to be interpreted in a literal or criminal sense.”

    During the couple’s divorce proceedings, Trump dismissed his wife’s version of the incident as “obviously false”.

    nk (c35edf) — 4/16/2025 @ 7:28 pm

  94. “Maryland man”been busy.

    lloyd (9623c5) — 4/16/2025 @ 7:28 pm

  95. From the same report:

    Her newly uncovered testimony comes the same day that the Department of Justice released a report indicating Abrego Garcia was an active gang member.

    According to documents released Wednesday by Trump’s Attorney General Pam Bondi, Maryland police stated in a 2019 report that they believe the Salvadorian was a member of MS-13.

    During the interaction, authorities found Abrego Garcia alongside other MS-13 members outside of a Home Depot in Maryland. At the time, he was wearing a Chicago Bulls hat and a hoodie, which police say is indicative of gang activity.

    The associates he was with were confirmed MS-13 members and one of them even discarded two containers of cannabis once they saw authorities approaching, according to the report.

    Upon further investigation, Prince George’s County police determined Abrego Garcia was an active member of the cartel.

    ‘Officers contacted a past proven and reliable source of [information], who advised Kilmar Armando Abrego-Garcia is an active member of MS-13 with the Westerns clique,’ the PGPD wrote. ‘The confidential source further advised that he is the rank of ‘Chequeo’ with the moniker of ‘Chele.‘

    lloyd (9623c5) — 4/16/2025 @ 7:31 pm

  96. “At the time, he was wearing a Chicago Bulls hat and a hoodie, which police say is indicative of gang activity.”

    Oh no I have a cousin who’s a gang member

    Davethulhu (37ddfb) — 4/16/2025 @ 8:06 pm

  97. BuDuh (bd0933) — 4/16/2025 @ 6:23 pm

    That could be a reason to deport him somewhere that isn’t El Salvador after he’s had his day in court.

    Paul Montagu (84042b) — 4/16/2025 @ 8:29 pm

  98. Oh no I have a cousin who’s a gang member
    Davethulhu (37ddfb) — 4/16/2025 @ 8:06 pm

    No, Davethulhu, you’re confused. Antifa pussies wear helmets and masks.

    lloyd (9623c5) — 4/16/2025 @ 9:11 pm

  99. The associates he was with were confirmed MS-13 members and one of them even discarded two containers of cannabis once they saw authorities approaching, according to the report.

    It was just a meet up to talk NBA.

    lloyd (9623c5) — 4/16/2025 @ 9:14 pm

  100. Only the most hardened gang members smoke weed.

    Davethulhu (37ddfb) — 4/16/2025 @ 10:14 pm

  101. Same trump, different case.

    We already saw it with the rigged and stolen Dominion machines 2,000 mules Fulton County ad nauseaum.

    Tell it to the judge, finger-sniffers! If you dare.

    nk (c35edf) — 4/17/2025 @ 3:32 am

  102. Seems like there’s plenty of compelling evidence that this guy was a jerk and should’ve been deported. The Tromm administration didn’t present any of it in court as they were legally required to do so given the judges order that the man not being deported to El Salvador. Lloyd, what’s your explanation for why they failed to obey the law? Do you think they did it because they were just incompetent? Do you think they did it because they don’t care if they obey the law or not? Also, because they didn’t follow the law the judge has ordered them to facilitate his return. Do you think the Trump administration has made a good faith effort to do so? I I don’t. But maybe I’m wrong if you think I’m wrong and they have made a good faith effort to return him or to facilitate his return. Why do you think that?

    Time (22768d) — 4/17/2025 @ 6:42 am

  103. Is it compelling that a judge’s recorded holding, upheld by a second judge’s recorded holding (during an appeals process), found that Garcia is a member of the MS-13 gang?

    Is it compelling that the withholding order” did not dispute that Garcia was a member of the MS-13 gang?

    Or should courts not be trusted unless they only issue favorable rulings? Sounds Trumpish.

    BuDuh (74c28a) — 4/17/2025 @ 7:22 am

  104. Time (22768d) — 4/17/2025 @ 6:42 am

    Honest answer: Incompetence, followed by stubbornness mixed with a little of not giving a sh1t.

    What is your explanation for the problem that Trump is attempting to fix, albeit incompetently? Millions let in with ease, then obstruction and delay when deporting even one dude. Is this incompetence or malevolence? You didn’t seem interested enough to ever ask this question. For years now.

    What’s the explanation for ignoring ICE detainers on known criminals, so they can be deported? Incompetence or malevolence? You never seem to ask.

    What do you call this game where the world revolves around one guy, who we need to move heaven and earth for, turn over every stone, while nobody knows who Rachel Morin was, or cares? Why is she a squirrel, while Garcia has Senators making trips to check on his well being and calling him “citizen”? Is it incompetence or malevolence ? Do you have a name for this game, Time, other than just your normal partisan Democrat schtick?

    lloyd (cc2471) — 4/17/2025 @ 7:40 am

  105. Lloyd,

    As I commented to you previously (some threads ago), I am fine if the guy is brought back, and then deported again using proper procedures. (I don’t know what those are in this case, so I don’t know if it is merely an administrative decision to reverse his do not deport status, or simply getting Guatemala or Honduras or Costa Rica or Nicaragua to take the guy).

    There have been assertions that this guy is MS-13, but the evidence of this presented in the actual court records for this case is not strong. I don’t care to litigate it, because it does not have anything to do with the central principle that the administration deported someone through an administrative error and have taken no steps to ameliorate that error, even though the Supreme Court said that they should take steps to do so. That’s what is in play, here. The right to ship noncitizens to an El Salvador jail without regard to whether that is proper under the law is the fight the Trump administration is fighting tooth and nail for.

    JD Vance was very explicit in his tweeting the other day — the administration feels due process is not due to noncitizens who entered illegally. That’s not the law, and the administration does not get to be lawless because of feels.

    Appalled (70c982) — 4/17/2025 @ 8:18 am

  106. There have been assertions that this guy is MS-13, but the evidence of this presented in the actual court records for this case is not strong.

    You have seen the entire court record? Please link.

    BuDuh (74c28a) — 4/17/2025 @ 8:44 am

  107. it does not have anything to do with the central principle that the administration deported someone through an administrative error

    The administration is claiming that a saboteur in the DOJ included the “administrative error” language in the court filing and that the saboteur is now on leave and no longer participating in the case. The MS13 membership is essential for the terrorist designation that overrides the withholding order.

    The side that opposes the 2019 rulings by the judges, both primary and appellate, should do a better job than simple defaming of the court.

    “Tee hee, a Chicago Bulls jacket? Tee hee hee, what a stupid couple of judges. That judicial system is totally corrupt! Those judges are dupes that wield the rubber stamp stupidly!”

    BuDuh (74c28a) — 4/17/2025 @ 8:59 am

  108. Hi BuDuh,

    When I talk about the record in this case, I am looking here:

    https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/69777799/abrego-garcia-v-noem/

    That’s all the stuff that has been submitted to the District Court judge. This does not (frustratingly) include complete records of the initial proceedings against Abrego Garcia. If you look at this, you are stuck with the plaintiff’s description of the initial case against him. I would have thought the government would have brought this to court.

    Appalled (70c982) — 4/17/2025 @ 9:45 am

  109. Lloyd, Thank you for answering.

    I think he problem has been created for the following reasons.
    1. Incompetence
    2. Refusal to properly fund the system.
    3. Disagreement about the extent to which the US should provide asylum to ppl from south and Central America in need.
    4. Trade offs that no one likes.

    I honestly don’t care about this guy one way or another. I do care that the executive branch follow the law and make good faith efforts to correct mistakes when they’re found as well as make a good faith effort to follow court orders. Being ‘stubborn’ about mistakes isn’t acceptable, neither is ‘not giving a crap’.

    You see this as the world revolving around one guy, I don’t. I see it as the executive branch following the law is an end in and off itself.

    This is especially true when they’ve admitted they made a mistake and the President is openly musing about deporting citizens to prisons in other countries.

    Time (98e450) — 4/17/2025 @ 9:51 am

  110. The Bund thinks this is about Abrego Garcia, it’s not, it’s about America. And the fact that this administration (in the infinity example) doesn’t care about the Constitution and US Laws.

    Immigration, Economy, Defense, Healthcare, Speech, literally every one has been adjudicated to be breaking the law.

    But but but, some other administration did an illegal and unconstitutional thing, so the only solution is to be the most illegal and unconstitutional to make sure that “we get ours”.

    Colonel Klink (ret) (96f56a) — 4/17/2025 @ 9:55 am

  111. New documents detail government’s case that mistakenly deported man was a gang member

    The Trump administration released documents Wednesday that revealed new details in the case of Kilmar Abrego Garcia, a Maryland man deported to El Salvador a month ago in what a government lawyer called an “administrative error.”
    ……….
    The Justice Department shared records, not previously made public, detailing how police officers in Maryland assessed Abrego Garcia was a member of the MS-13 gang during an arrest in 2019. He had no criminal history at the time, which the documents also state, and his attorneys have denied that he is a gang member.

    In a document titled “gang field interview sheet,” the Prince George’s County Police Department detailed how in March 2019 it approached Abrego Garcia along with three other people for loitering at a Home Depot parking lot in Hyattsville. Abrego Garcia said in a court filing that he was there looking for day labor work.

    Police said he was wearing “a Chicago Bulls hat and a hoodie with rolls of money covering the eyes, ears and mouth of the presidents” on the bills.

    The officers said such insignia — indicating “ver, oir, y callar” or “see no evil, hear no evil and say no evil” — was “indicative of the Hispanic gang culture.” The officers said they consulted with a reliable confidential source, who “advised that [Abrego Garcia] is the rank of ‘Chequeo’ with the moniker of ‘Chele’” in the gang.
    …………
    Police determined during the 2019 arrest that two other people who were with Abrego Garcia in the Home Depot parking lot were gang members, citing one man’s criminal history and another man’s tattoos, as well as information from an unidentified person who was a “past proven and reliable source of information.”
    ………..
    Another document released Wednesday, from the Department of Homeland Security in 2019, said police identified two men, one of whom was Abrego Garcia, as being having been previously detained in a murder investigation. Abrego Garcia denied being connected to a murder investigation, the documents say, and he was never charged.

    A page of the document includes a contradiction — at one point it says Abrego Garcia did not claim a fear of returning to his country, but later it says he did claim fear of returning to El Salvador.
    ……….
    “The reason for the Respondent’s arrest given on his Form 1-213 does appear at odds with the Gang Field Interview Sheet, which states that the Respondent was approached because he and others were loitering outside of Home Depot,” the document said, but it added that it still found the allegations of his gang membership to be supported.

    Abrego Garcia responded that “there is no reliable evidence in the record to support” that he is a member of MS-13 and that the allegation “is based on hearsay relayed by a confidential source.”
    …………
    Aside from the new documents, the Department of Homeland Security posted on social media earlier Wednesday that Abrego Garcia’s wife had sought a temporary protective order against him in 2021. The case was ultimately dismissed. ……..
    ………..

    Neither the confidential source or the police officers testified in 2019 immigration hearing about Abrego Garcia’s gang affiliation; yet the DOJ’s immigration judge accepted it as fact. Apparently the police detective who completed the Gang Field Interview Sheet (which is the only evidence of related to MS-13) later pleaded guilty to leaking information about on-going investigations to a prostitute that he was paying in exchange for sexual acts.

    The career DOJ immigration prosecutor who made the admission of “administrative error” has since been fired by the Justice Department.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 4/17/2025 @ 10:00 am

  112. The issue here is the conflation between “deporting” and “sending to a gulag”.

    Davethulhu (14e9e4) — 4/17/2025 @ 10:07 am

  113. @112, Is calling an El Salvadoran Work Camp/Prison a Gulag incorrect? Honest question, my understanding is that we’re imprisoning ppl in a prison with no due process. Which seems counter to the values our country is based on….at least if you believe in what the constitution says.

    Time (98e450) — 4/17/2025 @ 10:24 am

  114. Rip, I think calling this guy a saboteur is a hyperbole boarding on an outright lie. But I have no problem with the DOJ firing him for insufficiently advocating the governments position.

    1. Anyone has a right to do that with their lawyer.
    2. From what I’ve seen (IANAL) he could have provided similar, factual, answers that didn’t make his client look back.
    3. If he was so frustrated with his clients actions / lack of good faith effort to comply with the order he could have (and should have) refused to represent the case or resigned.

    I’d fire my lawyer if they made me look like a dishonest a-hole to the judge.

    Time (98e450) — 4/17/2025 @ 10:29 am

  115. Calling it a “torture camp” makes whembly sad, so I picked a different term. It’s absolutely a prison and this is where the whole “due process” thing lies. Trumpists want to call it “deporting” but it’s actually “imprisoning”. This doesn’t just apply to Garcia, it applies to every one of the people sent there. Garcia is just the one that caught attention.

    Davethulhu (14e9e4) — 4/17/2025 @ 10:32 am

  116. I’d fire my lawyer if they made me look like a dishonest a-hole to the judge.

    Time (98e450) — 4/17/2025 @ 10:29 am

    Too much candor.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 4/17/2025 @ 10:35 am

  117. They are circulating some assertions about Abrego Garcia all over:

    1) That he admitted in court he was a gang member – or maybe it is that he did not contest it when applying for withholding of removal in 2019.

    2) That his wife accused him of beating her (true but it has no legal consequences since she withdrew her request for an order of protection

    3) That he was detained for two hours in Tennessee on December 6, 2022,for having 7 other people in his car on suspicion of human smuggling. The Tennessee police contacted the FBI and the FBI said release them after first asking for photographs. (He was apparently driving them from Texas to Maryland but his driver’s license was not valid)

    4) That he had a tattoo on his hand, that, according to Tom Homan, was absolutely a gang tattoo because an expert on gang tattoos showed him a picture of a tattoo alleged to be on Garcia’s hand and said it was a gang tattoo.
    {This tattoo has not been mentioned before. We don’t even know that that’s a tattoo that’s really on Abrego Garcia’s hand and not a hoax. You have to dig a little into this to find out that’s it’s not been confirmed that he really has such a tattoo. All you have is claim by Tom Homan that he has such a tattoo which it turns out he did not verify its truthfulness at all..}

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/opinion/tom-homan-says-he-saw-something-proving-abrego-garcia-is-absolutely-ms-13/ar-AA1D4IEh

    “I talked to an MS-13 expert today who also showed me pictures of his [Abrego Garcia’s] hand, where he says, ‘Absolutely the tattoo on one of his hands was absolutely an MS-13 gang tattoo.’ Nothing questionable about it. Two judges said he’s [an] MS-13 member. ICE says he’s [an] MS-13 member. Intelligence community says he’s [an] MS-13 member. El Salvador says he’s [an] MS-13 member.

    El Salvador, of course, does not claim to have any independent confirmation of his belonging to a criminal gang as far as I know, but someone told Senator Chris Van Hollen that El Salvador was being paid to hold him (which may be wrong in his case – I wouldn’t consider that statement worth much.)

    5) That Democrats have picked a very bad hill to die on. And they’ll lose out.

    More from Homan’s interview on Fox News:

    “As far as all the people who are speaking out against this, I cannot believe for a minute there’s that many stupid people in the world. Now, AOC on the smart meter, she’s a zero. We’ll give them that. But I can’t believe these people really believe what they’re saying. They’ve got to be just pushing the narrative for political reasons. They can’t be that dumb to think that this person isn’t an MS-13 gang member and a public safety threat.”

    Even if he were at one time a gang member he’s not a public safety threat! People drop out of crime. He had a source of legitimate income. He hasn’t been arrested for that kind of crime, and most repeat criminals eventually get arrested.

    Sammy Finkelman (e4ef09) — 4/17/2025 @ 10:42 am

  118. If you look at this, you are stuck with the plaintiff’s description of the initial case against him

    And you are also stuck with the court’s decision.

    Garcia had 7 years, before getting caught in 2019, to make all the claims he made in his asylum hearing. Separately he had 5 years after his two removal hearings to prove to the court that he was not MS13.

    Time ran out on this dude because of his own actions. Now he gets a hero’s parade because clearly the court, in 2019, failed to do its job. Yet no one has evidence that they did indeed fail.

    I am not bugged by the argument that the deportation was flawed; I mostly agree.

    It does bother me that the 2019 court is so impugned. Even more so, I don’t understand the reasoning that once he was nabbed, he should be automatically afforded a second appeal of the 2019 ruling, when he made no such attempt for five years.

    BuDuh (74c28a) — 4/17/2025 @ 10:42 am

  119. 115. Davethulhu (14e9e4) — 4/17/2025 @ 10:32 am

    It’s absolutely a prison

    Its the biggest prison in the world. At least among admitted prisons. (I can’t speak for the Chinese gulag (Laogai) or the ISIS related people held in Syria)

    And Bukele plans now to double its capacity.

    and this is where the whole “due process” thing lies. Trumpists want to call it “deporting” but it’s actually “imprisoning”. This doesn’t just apply to Garcia, it applies to every one of the people sent there. Garcia is just the one that caught attention.

    Because he is not Venezuelan, like most of them (who were being held there because Venezuela would not accept them) and because there was a standing order forbidding his removal from the United States.

    Sammy Finkelman (e4ef09) — 4/17/2025 @ 10:49 am

  120. BuDuh (74c28a) — 4/17/2025 @ 10:42 am

    the 2019 ruling, when he made no such attempt for five years.

    He won! He didn’t need to challenge is alleged membership in MS-13 because at that time it did not make things worse for him. In fact it maybe made things better because the grounds for preventing his deportation was that the 18th street gang ( Barrio 18) considered him an enemy. I’m not too clear on this. It might need to be combined with police corruption and/or indifference in El Salvador

    Besides, the 2019 judge didn’t need more than clear and convincing evidence and is not an Article II judge but an employee.

    Sammy Finkelman (e4ef09) — 4/17/2025 @ 10:56 am

  121. Article III judge.

    His best strategy was to wait until the government sought to deport him.

    Look at this:

    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/new-documents-government-case-mistakenly-deported-abrego-garcia-gang-rcna201665

    Another document released Wednesday, from the Department of Homeland Security in 2019, said police identified two men, one of whom was Abrego Garcia, as being having been previously detained in a murder investigation. Abrego Garcia denied being connected to a murder investigation, the documents say, and he was never charged.

    That is, he denied ever having come under suspicion of murder, and the claim is apparently untrue – he was never a suspect or ever detained in that connection.

    Sammy Finkelman (e4ef09) — 4/17/2025 @ 11:03 am

  122. When the Asylum judge discussed the Barrio 18 gang, what did he specifically say, or address, regarding Garcia’s membership, as determined by a separate court, in MS13?

    BuDuh (74c28a) — 4/17/2025 @ 11:05 am

  123. Calling it a “torture camp” makes whembly sad, so I picked a different term. It’s absolutely a prison and this is where the whole “due process” thing lies. Trumpists want to call it “deporting” but it’s actually “imprisoning”. This doesn’t just apply to Garcia, it applies to every one of the people sent there. Garcia is just the one that caught attention.

    Whembly can be very sensitive. But if it’s not a torture camp you shouldn’t call it that. The realty is bad enough, no need to exaggerate.

    Time (98e450) — 4/17/2025 @ 11:11 am

  124. If they were not stubborn about this, it could come out that the process thy use is, at best, extremely sloppy, and most of the people on the terrorism watch list aren’t terrorists.

    It’s a strange thing to do anyway with any terrorist “fish” you catch: Throw them back into the sea. Probably without interrogating them and making it in their self-interest to co-operate..

    This case could be the key to opening up a whole can of worms.

    Sammy Finkelman (e4ef09) — 4/17/2025 @ 11:12 am

  125. I am not bugged by the argument that the deportation was flawed; I mostly agree.

    It does bother me that the 2019 court is so impugned. Even more so, I don’t understand the reasoning that once he was nabbed, he should be automatically afforded a second appeal of the 2019 ruling, when he made no such attempt for five years.

    BuDuh (74c28a) — 4/17/2025 @ 10:42 am

    Weirdly I agree with BuDuh about impugning the court.

    Time (98e450) — 4/17/2025 @ 11:13 am

  126. Time (98e450) — 4/17/2025 @ 11:11 am

    But if it’s not a torture camp you shouldn’t call it that. The realty is bad enough, no need to exaggerate.

    Unfortunately, lawyers do that all the time, and they also have expanded and stretched beyond all reason the definition of torture (so that, for instance, in U.S. prisons, solitary confinement is torture) so there may e sort of justification for that word..

    Sammy Finkelman (e4ef09) — 4/17/2025 @ 11:17 am

  127. Sotomayor says:

    …The Government
    remains bound by an Immigration Judge’s 2019
    order expressly prohibiting Abrego Garcia’s removal to El Salvador because he faced a “clear probability of future persecution” there and “demonstrated that [El Salvador’s] authorities were and would be unable or unwilling to protect him.” App. to Application To Vacate Injunction 13a. The Government has not challenged the validity of that order.

    That order, is, of course, way out of date, but till it’s removed, the government remains bound by it. And he could challenge its revocation or come up with new grounds for spending his removal. (like the lack of habeus corpus in EL Salvador, and the U.S. government having poisoned the mind of he government of EL Salvador against him – if you want to give Bukele any credit.)

    I don’t know what the judge actually said in 2019 about why the 18th Street gang would target him.

    They had extorted his mother’s business, but I read that, by that time, it had closed down (but that apparently was not in the court record.)

    I don’t know what the judge said, if anything, about his putative membership in MS-13, – what the judge said is merely reported secondhand in summary – but I said that maybe it could even work to his advantage.

    Of course he could be targeted if he was known to have been deported from the United States because it would be assumed by the 18th street gang that he had friends or family in the United States and therefore access to money.

    Sammy Finkelman (e4ef09) — 4/17/2025 @ 11:45 am

  128. I wonder if Davethulhu cares about gulags and torture camps as much as he cares about the budget deficit.

    lloyd (627173) — 4/17/2025 @ 12:47 pm

  129. No idea, both are important. Interested to see what all the Doge activity actually results in.

    Time (98e450) — 4/17/2025 @ 12:50 pm

  130. Interested to see what all the Doge activity actually results in.

    Time (98e450) — 4/17/2025 @ 12:50 pm

    So far the federal government is spending more (+$154 billion), not less, compared to the same time period (January-March) last year.

    ………
    A Wall Street Journal analysis of daily financial statements issued by the Treasury Department found government spending since the inauguration is $154 billion more than in the same period in 2024 during the administration of former President Joe Biden.

    DOGE claims cuts of $150 billion so far, but the Journal analysis found those efforts have yet to affect the bottom line.

    And while the government’s income—taxes and revenues including tariffs—is also up, it isn’t enough to keep pace with higher spending.
    …………
    This year Social Security payments are $32.7 billion higher since Trump took office.

    The increased costs are driven mainly by nearly 1.3 million new beneficiaries in the past year and a mandated 2.5% cost-of-living adjustment. ……

    Medicare and Medicaid spending are similarly outpacing levels from a year ago, growing by about $29 billion since the inauguration. Increased enrollments and rising healthcare costs are helping fuel this growth. ……..
    ……….
    The U.S. has paid out $25.5 billion more in interest since Trump returned to the White House than in the same period in 2024. Rising interest rates and a growing national debt contribute to higher interest costs.
    ……….
    Federal salary payments are $2.8 billion higher than a year ago in part because of a Biden-approved 2% pay raise in January. Additionally, thousands of other employees who took buyout offers remain salaried through September.
    ……….
    DOGE notched a few victories in a handful of the more than 100 spending categories tracked in the daily Treasury statement.
    …………
    “I think the net effect of DOGE on federal spending, at least insofar as we can track it in the daily Treasury statement, has been pretty small,” said Don Schneider, deputy head of U.S. policy at Piper Sandler. “It will take time for those savings to accumulate, but it will also be dependent on the administration prevailing in court over some of these actions.”
    ###########

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 4/17/2025 @ 1:19 pm

  131. The link for post 130 has charts showing the spending increases.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 4/17/2025 @ 1:24 pm

  132. #125

    I agree with Time and BuDuh about the unavailability decision of the 2019 court that denied this guy bond. We really have not seen the evidence that convinced the judge (maybe that’s what DoJ released). Maybe we can get Davethulu on board….

    Appalled (70c982) — 4/17/2025 @ 1:30 pm

  133. Based on the two newspaper articles I linked to @90:

    El Salvador broke with Taiwan in 2018 and recognized Beijing.

    Nayib Bukele takes office in 2019.

    White House declares war on El Salvador’s violent gangs, including MS-13.

    Trump names Ronald Johnson Ambassador to El Salvador. He gets close to Bukele. He posts photos on social media of their families spending weekends together and tweets highlighting their “personal friendship.” He says his wife is “co-ambassador” and sometimes uses her as a translator.

    Sept. 2019: Trump administration signs an agreement with El Salvador to require Central American migrants traveling through El Salvador to seek refuge there instead of the United States, signed weeks after Mr. Johnson arrived

    2020: Bukele accused of secretly colluding with local gangs. He is accused by Salvadoran media of agreeing to give perks and better treatment to imprisoned gang members, like visits from prostitutes and cellphones. In exchange, the report said, the gangs would reduce homicides [killings dropped 45 percent from 2019 to 2020] and give their support to Mr. Bukele’s party in the coming election.

    Johnson defends him.

    Salvadoran law prohibited politicians from negotiating with them. And when Bukele became president in 2019, he vowed he would go hard on the gangs, like no leader before.

    Six Republican congressmen write a letter to the Salvadoran president saying they were “troubled by reports that the government of El Salvador could be legitimizing MS-13.”

    Bukele dismisses the letter on national television, saying the U.S. representatives who signed it “don’t represent 5 percent or 3 percent of Congress.”

    El Salvador’s attorney general raids the bureau of prisons, seizing hard drives, log books and CCTV footage, according to media reports at the time.

    Without clear reason, a U.S. Embassy staff member investigating the government’s potential ties to the gangs is sent home early.

    (In a Senate committee hearing in March 236,, Mr. Johnson (who has been nominated to be Ambassador to Mexico) said the U.S. official investigating the administration’s relationship with the gangs was dismissed because he was having “unauthorized meetings” with journalists,

    According to two former American officials, the ambassador regularly told embassy staffers not to pursue any projects that may upset Mr. Bukele and jeopardize the agreement, which he said was an important bilateral achievement.

    2021: Bukele creates a national award for Mr. Johnson just before he departed as ambassador, which remains El Salvador’s highest honor and has only been given twice.

    February: Bukele’s party wins a majority in Congress and swiftly dissolves the Salvadoran investigative unit looking into the gang negotiations.

    In November 2021, the government secretly frees a top MS-13 leader from prison, despite a U.S. extradition request.

    December: U.S. Treasury Department sanctions two senior Salvadoran officials after its own investigations concluded they had orchestrated covert agreements with gang leaders.

    Several months into 2022: Agreement with the gangs breaks down and murders rise. Government quickly imposed a state of emergency that remains in place today, mobilizing police and the military forces to carry out mass arrests.

    2023: The U.S. State Department wrote a report on the lack of due process for the accused and the horrendous conditions (including what they call tirture) in Bukele prisons.

    El Salvador issues 60,000 visitor visas to Ecuadoreans and 32,000 to travelers from India. This is for migration. Most of those “tourists” are smuggled through Guatemala to the U.S. border.

    The government’s budget and use of funds is opaque.

    China completes the construction of a glitzy new national library in old San Salvador and a modern fishing pier with an amusement park on the Pacific Ocean. Both are stated as gifts to the Salvadoran people from China.

    2024:. Bukele critics have been silenced.

    Bukele violates the constitution in 2024 when he runs for re-election.

    The Turkish company Yilport was given a no-bid contract to run the two largest port concessions in the country for 50 years

    Sammy Finkelman (e4ef09) — 4/17/2025 @ 1:40 pm

  134. By the way, given all the noise generated by Trump’s administration, some important details about the defiance of the order to attempt to bring Abrego Garcia home slipped out in Van Hollen’s first news conference yesterday:

    https://www.rev.com/transcripts/maryland-senator-goes-to-el-salvador

    Now, the courts of the United States have said there’s no evidence to support the charge that he’s part of MS-13, so I asked the vice president whether or not El Salvador has any evidence that he’s part of MS-13 or has committed a crime. So I asked the vice president, if Abrego Garcia has not committed a crime and the US courts have found that he was illegally taken for the United States and the government of El Salvador has no evidence that he was part of MS-13, why is El Salvador continuing to hold him in CECOT? And his answer was that the Trump administration is paying El Salvador, the government of El Salvador, to keep him at CECOT.

    Absorb that a second. This guy was sent by mistake. (Steven Miller says otherwise, but folks that make representations to the court have all said his transportation to El Salvador was an administrative error). He’s sitting in jail — not because of an crime committed in El Salvador, but because we, the US government, asked El Salvador to park him there.

    So, you’d think it wouldn’t be hard to get him out of the El Salvador jail — because he is there at US request. Welp, here is Van Hollen again:

    There’s no evidence that they’re complying with that order. In fact, the United States Embassy here has told me they’ve received no direction from the Trump administration to help facilitate his release.

    The government wants this precedent so very badly. They want the right to disappear people. They need to lose — not just in court but in public opinion. If they don’t — we slouch further to the lawless dictatorship, where the government gets to do anything it wants to anybody it wants.

    Appalled (70c982) — 4/17/2025 @ 2:10 pm

  135. Rip, thank you for that.

    Time (22768d) — 4/17/2025 @ 2:26 pm

  136. But spending this year will be (should be) based on the budget passed last year. Next year will be the one to watch.

    Time (22768d) — 4/17/2025 @ 2:27 pm

  137. Now, the courts of the United States have said there’s no evidence to support the charge that he’s part of MS-13,

    Not quite.

    In 2019, something that was not really a court, accepted the claim that he was a member of MS-13

    No tattoo apparently was mentioned there, only clothing, but Tom Homan claims that someone showed him a picture of a hand tattoo claiming it was of Garcia and averred that was absolutely a gang tattoo.

    I think they’re playing poker with Congress and the public. And maybe the press but the press is fee..

    The poker game is pointless except maybe they hope it will fall out of the news before they lose.

    In the meantime, members of the Administration will be forced to testify or go into contempt. They wont lie under oath for this case

    Sammy Finkelman (e4ef09) — 4/17/2025 @ 2:46 pm

  138. They wont lie under oath for this case

    Are you 4Imprint certain?

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 4/17/2025 @ 2:51 pm

  139. Ouch!

    ……….
    In a unanimous ruling, (a Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals) three-judge panel from Virginia called on the Justice Department to prove its allegations that Abrego Garcia was an alleged criminal and member of the notorious MS-13 gang in a court of law, rather than spouting them to the press and in filings without evidence.

    “It is difficult in some cases to get to the very heart of the matter,” wrote Judge J. Harvie Wilkinson III, a Ronald Reagan appointee, in the 4th Circuit’s order.

    “But in this case, it is not hard at all,” Wilkinson said. “The government is asserting a right to stash away residents of this country in foreign prisons without the semblance of due process that is the foundation of our constitutional order. Further, it claims in essence that because it has rid itself of custody that there is nothing that can be done. This should be shocking not only to judges, but to the intuitive sense of liberty that Americans far removed from courthouses still hold dear.”
    ……….
    The DOJ filed its emergency motion to stay Xinis’ order with the 4th Circuit on Wednesday night, along with court documents saying it would be appealing a recent order from U.S. District Judge James Boasberg that said there was probable cause to bring forward criminal contempt charges for the government’s alleged refusal to follow his order to return Venezuelan immigrants who were deported with Abrego Garcia on March 15.
    ……….
    Wilkinson and the 4th Circuit said while they “fully respect the Executive’s robust assertion of its Article II powers,” it would be wrong to overstep Xinis and stay her order.

    “We shall not micromanage the efforts of a fine district judge attempting to implement the Supreme Court’s recent decision,” Wilkinson said. “The Supreme Court’s decision remains, as always, our guidepost. That decision rightly requires the lower federal courts to give “due regard for the deference owed to the Executive Branch in the conduct of foreign affairs.”
    ………..
    “The government asserts that Abrego Garcia is a terrorist and a member of MS-13. Perhaps, but perhaps not,” Wilkinson said. “Regardless, he is still entitled to due process. If the government is confident of its position, it should be assured that position will prevail in proceedings to terminate the withholding of removal order.”
    ##########

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 4/17/2025 @ 3:05 pm

  140. Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 4/17/2025 @ 3:05 pm

    Related:

    A federal judge ordered an “intense” two-week inquiry into the Trump administration’s refusal to seek the return of a man who was wrongly deported from Maryland to a notorious prison in El Salvador.

    “To date, what the record shows is that nothing has been done. Nothing,” U.S. District Judge Paula Xinis said at a court hearing Tuesday.

    Xinis’ order sets up a high-stakes sprint that may force senior Trump administration officials to testify under oath about their response to court orders requiring them to facilitate the return of Kilmar Abrego Garcia to the United States. Each day that passes, the judge noted, is another day Abrego Garcia spends improperly detained in a maximum security mega-prison.

    “We’re going to move. There will be no tolerance for gamesmanship or grandstanding,” the judge said. “There are no business hours while we do this. … Cancel vacations, cancel other appointments. I’m usually pretty good about things like that in my court, but not this time. So, I expect all hands on deck.”
    ………….
    In a written order granting “expedited discovery,” Xinis said four senior officials from the Department of Homeland Security and the Department of State will have to sit for depositions by April 23 — essentially out-of-court interviews in which the officials will have to answer questions under oath from Abrego Garcia’s lawyers. Those officials include Joseph Mazzara, the acting general counsel at Immigration and Customs Enforcement, and Michael Kozak, the senior official in the State Department’s Bureau of Western Hemisphere Affairs.
    …………
    Justice Department attorney Drew Ensign argued that a joint appearance in the Oval Office Monday by President Donald Trump and President Nayib Bukele of El Slavador demonstrated that the issue had been raised with “the highest authority” in that country and there was no hope of getting Abrego Garcia back.

    But Xinis noted that Bukele’s comments came in response to a question from a journalist, not a U.S. official. She also scoffed at Bukele’s dismissive comment that he could not “smuggle” Abrego Garcia back into the U.S. The judge called Bukele’s answer “non-responsive” as a legal matter.

    The Trump administration’s decision to lean on that exchange, she said, underscored the need for her to press for sworn testimony and more facts.

    The Justice Department appears likely to throw up a series of legal obstacles to the depositions, including claims of confidentiality for executive branch discussions and legal advice. Ensign objected to any fact-finding by the court, and he asked Xinis to give the administration time to appeal her interpretation of the scope of the U.S. government’s obligations.

    However, Xinis said the Supreme Court had made “very clear” that the U.S. government was obliged to work to release Abrego Garcia from custody in El Salvador.

    “I’m cleaving as closely as one can cleave to the Supreme Court,” the judge told Ensign. “There is, in my view, nothing to appeal. Now, we get to the facts.”
    …………

    It was the Justice Department’s appeal of this ruling to the Fourth Circuit that was denied (see post 139.)

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 4/17/2025 @ 3:32 pm

  141. If the government is confident of its position,

    The 2019 government was confident, but I guess that isn’t evidence.

    Does everyone believe that all MS13 affiliation findings made prior to a certain date need to be doubly appealed before any action can be taken against any of its members who reside in the US illegally? Should any convictions get the same treatment? Automatic appeals for everything… again and again?

    Are the immigration courts that wrought with fraud??

    BuDuh (74c28a) — 4/17/2025 @ 3:38 pm

  142. The 2019 government was confident, but I guess that isn’t evidence.

    What was the testimony (and other evidence) that gave the government its confidence??

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 4/17/2025 @ 3:48 pm

  143. What was the testimony (and other evidence) that gave the government its confidence??

    Ask them.

    I can’t do your work for you…

    Do you need to double check all of their cases? Maybe you should. Feel free, since you apparently don’t trust the court. Let me know how corrupt the system is.

    BuDuh (74c28a) — 4/17/2025 @ 5:19 pm

  144. Ask them.

    I can’t do your work for you…

    Do you need to double check all of their cases? Maybe you should. Feel free, since you apparently don’t trust the court. Let me know how corrupt the system is.

    BuDuh (74c28a) — 4/17/2025 @ 5:19 pm

    Since at 2019 immigration hearing no testimony was presented, I just wondered what gave the government their “confidence” that the MS-13 allegation was true.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 4/17/2025 @ 5:30 pm

  145. I can’t do your work for you…

    You made the claim, that “the 2019 government was confident”.

    Paul Montagu (84042b) — 4/17/2025 @ 5:31 pm

  146. I can’t do your work for you……


    😉
    Yet you asked me to do the same a few days ago.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 4/17/2025 @ 5:31 pm

  147. And what was your answer?

    Derp.

    BuDuh (74c28a) — 4/17/2025 @ 5:43 pm

  148. And what was your answer?

    Derp.

    BuDuh (74c28a) — 4/17/2025 @ 5:43 pm

    I provided you with Dana’s links. After that I took leave from Patterico to enjoy my evening.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 4/17/2025 @ 5:46 pm

  149. You made the claim, that “the 2019 government was confident”.

    Are you suggesting that they weren’t confident initially here and the appeal here?

    You have evidence that they were winging it?

    A less than confident court dropping opinions left and right is a pretty scary thing. How many judges are you wary of, Paul?

    BuDuh (74c28a) — 4/17/2025 @ 5:47 pm

  150. And you didn’t say anything derpy when you took your leave..

    I am ok with your engagement level. I just figured I’d ask every now and then to see if you are going to change for the better. I have hope.

    BuDuh (74c28a) — 4/17/2025 @ 5:50 pm

  151. Are you suggesting that they weren’t confident initially here and the appeal here?

    No, I’m not that suggesting that. You made a claim.
    We don’t know their level of confidence, just that they presented information on clothing and from a confidential source in court.

    This would be a worthwhile issue to address after Mr. Garcia is returned and has his day in court.

    Paul Montagu (84042b) — 4/17/2025 @ 6:06 pm

  152. Are you suggesting that they weren’t confident initially here and the appeal here?

    You have evidence that they were winging it?

    A less than confident court dropping opinions left and right is a pretty scary thing. How many judges are you wary of, Paul?

    BuDuh (74c28a) — 4/17/2025 @ 5:47 pm

    The documents at your links aren’t “opinions” in the sense of findings of fact. One is rejection of a bond application and the other is a dismissal of his appeal, both issued by Department of Justice offices. As I noted before, Judge Kessler is not a federal judge in the sense of being confirmed by the Senate and having lifetime tenure; she is part of the DOJ’s Executive Office for Immigration Review, as is the hearing officer who denied the bond appeal.

    At best Judge Kessler took the statements from the DOJ immigration attorney and the documents from the Prince Georges detective (the Gang Field Interview Sheet (GFIS) and his Form 1-213, which contradicts the GFIS), at face value without any inquiry into their truthfulness; as well as the description of his clothing. See here for more details.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 4/17/2025 @ 6:22 pm

  153. Either the judge has confidence in the evidence presented to him or the judge doesn’t.

    I hope that a lack of confidence would fall under a presumption of innocence for the accused.

    You disagree?

    BuDuh (74c28a) — 4/17/2025 @ 6:23 pm

  154. dismissal of his appeal,

    And I assume you read why they dismissed his appeal?

    BuDuh (74c28a) — 4/17/2025 @ 6:25 pm

  155. I think Buddha is right that this guy is a jackass. And that the court rightly found that. And ruled that he couldn’t lawfully be deported.

    Time (ebd7e2) — 4/17/2025 @ 7:07 pm

  156. Hit post too soon. Can’t be deported to El Salvador.

    Time (ebd7e2) — 4/17/2025 @ 7:08 pm

  157. I hope that a lack of confidence would fall under a presumption of innocence for the accused.

    Confidence is your thing, and I don’t see where “presumption of innocence” applies. It’s already confirmed that he’s a “removable alien”.
    The issue is whether he stays here per the October 2019 ruling or is shipped to a country not named El Salvador or the ruling is rescinded, but he should be returned to face that justice.

    Paul Montagu (29158f) — 4/17/2025 @ 7:59 pm

  158. Wilkinson’s ruling that denies a DOJ stay is something to behold.

    Paul Montagu (29158f) — 4/17/2025 @ 8:20 pm

  159. Nope, these guys will never arrest and detain American Citizens…well, white ones.

    A U.S.-born citizen was arrested in Florida on Wednesday and charged with illegally entering the state as an “unauthorized alien.” Twenty-year-old Juan Carlos Lopez-Gomez was detained for a day at the request of the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement, despite his mother producing his birth certificate and Social Security card at a court hearing.

    Leon County Judge LaShawn Riggans inspected the birth certificate during a court hearing on Thursday, confirmed it was “an authentic document,” and said she found no probable cause for the charge, the Florida Phoenix reported. But a state prosecutor said that because ICE had asked the local jail to hold Lopez-Gomez, the court did not have the authority to grant his release.

    “This court does not have any jurisdiction other than what I’ve already done,” said Riggans.

    “I wanted to tell them, ‘Where are you going to take him? He is from here,’” Lopez-Gomez’s mother Sebastiana Gomez-Perez told the outlet after the hearing. “I felt immense helplessness because I couldn’t do anything, and I am desperate to get my son out of there.”

    Still in jail at this moment.

    Colonel Klink (ret) (96f56a) — 4/17/2025 @ 8:57 pm

  160. https://x.com/nayibbukele/status/1913035243918864742

    This is a mockery

    BuDuh (74c28a) — 4/17/2025 @ 9:46 pm

  161. Today:

    U.S. citizen released from jail after arrest under Florida’s new anti-immigration law

    BuDuh (74c28a) — 4/17/2025 @ 10:02 pm

  162. Two other men who were in the car with Lopez-Gomez, the driver and another passenger, also made their first appearances on the same charge on Thursday. The driver was also charged with driving without a license.

    No Bulls jackkets.. thank god.

    BuDuh (74c28a) — 4/17/2025 @ 10:06 pm

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