Patterico's Pontifications

1/30/2025

Trump Talks American Airline/ Black Hawk Crash Last Night

Filed under: General — Dana @ 10:20 am



[guest post by Dana]

What we know for sure:

An American Airlines regional jet went down in the Potomac River near Washington, D.C.’s Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport after colliding with a U.S. Army Black Hawk helicopter on Wednesday night, with no survivors expected amid the extremely cold and windy conditions.

Sixty-four people were on board the plane, which departed from Wichita, Kansas.

The collision happened around 9 p.m. when the PSA Airlines Bombardier CRJ700 regional jet was on approach to the airport.

There is speculation, of course, but we are cautioned to wait for an investigation:

I’m a hawk pilot. I’ve flown the NCR airspace. I’ve got about as much knowledge as you can have save for being one of the VIP fliers out there. Here’s me, not commenting, waiting for a proper investigation to be done. Take a hint. The world doesn’t need your uninformed aviation hot take.

Clearly some individuals didn’t want to wait for an investigation to be concluded (let alone barely begun), and have even decided that DEI policies were to blame for the crash:

—Dana

111 Responses to “Trump Talks American Airline/ Black Hawk Crash Last Night”

  1. Hello.

    Dana (ddacde)

  2. Every accusation is an admission.

    If stupid Hitler talks, he’s 1) wrong 2) probably lying…in every case.

    It doesn’t matter if it’s a tragedy with 67 fatalities, or the ladyman making his fries.

    Colonel Klink (ret) (96f56a)

  3. @2 Colonel Klink (ret) (96f56a) — 1/30/2025 @ 10:27 am
    “Godwin this, Godwin that”
    That’s all I see…

    whembly (b7cc46)

  4. Waiting for some reporter to cut to the chase and just ask, “So you’re saying this accident is the result of desegregation?”

    john (142c21)

  5. Granted, this is a “communist” link but, as they say, facts don’t have a left-wing bias.

    On Tuesday, January 22, the Aviation Security Advisory Committee’s members received a memo from the Trump administration saying that the Department of Homeland Security was getting rid of the membership of all advisory committees in a “commitment to eliminating the misuse of resources and ensuring that DHS activities prioritize our national security.” At the same time, Trump also fired the heads of the Transportation Security Administration and the Coast Guard.

    Congress mandated the aviation committee in 1988, after the PanAm Flight 103 bombing over Lockerbie, Scotland. After Trump’s move, the committee technically continues to exist but has no members to examine safety issues in airlines and airports. Its membership consisted of key groups in the aviation industry, from major unions to representatives from major airlines, as well as a group associated with victims of the PanAm bombing.

    Obviously, Trump’s sunsetting the committee had nothing to do with last night’s crash, but they’ll be needed to make recommendations about the air traffic situation in and around DC.

    Paul Montagu (3fa619)

  6. Paul Montagu (3fa619) — 1/30/2025 @ 10:48 am

    The FAA has also lacked an Administrator since January 20th; Trump announced an acting head today; the position requires Senate confirmation.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  7. >“Godwin this, Godwin that”

    The President has jumped in asserting that this was obviously a result of DEI programs, without waiting for any evidence of that. When asked about it, he said that it’s just common sense which unfortunately many people don’t have.

    It’s pretty clear the man is a f*cking racist, and I am baffled at how you don’t see it.

    aphrael (dbf41f)

  8. While Trump is railing about DEI and such, this crash happened under the watch of DUI hire, Pete Hegseth.

    Elect a con man, get the clown show. Trump’s performance today is scarcely different from his factless nonsense about Hamas using American-imported condoms for bomb-making.

    Donald Trump: “We identified and stopped $50 million being sent to Gaza to buy condoms for Hamas. And you know what’s happened to them? They’ve used them as a method of making bombs.”🤡🤡
    (he literally made this sh-t up)

    Paul Montagu (3fa619)

  9. “Godwin this, Godwin that”
    That’s all I see…

    To be more exact:

    “I lose! I lose!”

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  10. This was caused by flying a helicopter through the glide path of incoming flights.

    STUPID EFFING HELICOPTER PILOT!!!1!!!

    Even when told to alter course to avoid the plane (by going behind it) the pilot apparently turned to try to pass in front of it.

    And he really should have been nowhere near that altitude. I bet he was trying to show off.

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  11. “So you’re saying this accident is the result of desegregation?”

    Question: Which president ordered the military to stop playing games and actually desegregate?

    Answer: Eisenhower. Truman’s order was largely gamed by having a separate “colored” company in each regiment. Ike told them to disburse colored officers and troops throughout and stop enforcing Jim Crow on Southern bases.

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  12. The FAA has also lacked an Administrator since January 20th

    What has that to do with air traffic controllers? Do you think they were all discombobulated by a lack of an Administrator? Half of them probably couldn’t name the old one.

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  13. DUI hire, Pete Hegseth.

    HE was never charged with DUI. There is a false rumor that originated on a satire page. But it’s false.

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  14. @7

    >“Godwin this, Godwin that”

    The President has jumped in asserting that this was obviously a result of DEI programs, without waiting for any evidence of that. When asked about it, he said that it’s just common sense which unfortunately many people don’t have.

    It’s pretty clear the man is a f*cking racist, and I am baffled at how you don’t see it.

    aphrael (dbf41f) — 1/30/2025 @ 11:08 am

    You have it backwards.

    DEI programs, itself, are racist.

    But, hey, Democrats like you are still salty when a Republican freed the slaves.

    whembly (b7cc46)

  15. OTOH, we should be buying condoms for Hamas. Also, paying for lower sex reassignment surgery if done in Israeli hospitals.

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  16. HE was never charged with DUI.

    It wasn’t intended to be literal, Kevin. His drunkenness among colleagues is documented.

    Paul Montagu (1888f5)

  17. @17

    His drunkenness among colleagues is documented.

    Paul Montagu (1888f5) — 1/30/2025 @ 12:04 pm

    Not on the job.

    whembly (b7cc46)

  18. What an embarrassing clown. Still not as stupid as his “they’re eating the pets” lie.

    Time123 (296c59)

  19. I wonder if he’s just lying because it’s convenient, or if he got confused that the “black” in “Blackhawk” has a racial / DEI meaning?

    Let’s take a poll, is it more likely Trump is lying or stupid?

    Open to another option if any of his supports can articulate a plausible one.

    Time123 (296c59)

  20. The people who can’t believe Trump’s stupidity for intimating that DEI might have contributed to the accident, seem to nonetheless know for sure that it did not.

    Harcourt Fenton Mudd (0c349e)

  21. Decades ago, a PSA 727 flying into San Diego collided with a cessna on a training flight in broad daylight. same sad result.

    Small planes should not be permitted near commercial airport flightpaths unless commercial traffic is an hour away.

    Harcourt Fenton Mudd (0c349e)

  22. Not on the job.

    False.

    Paul Montagu (3fa619)

  23. @22

    False.

    Paul Montagu (3fa619) — 1/30/2025 @ 1:48 pm

    LOL!!! The NewYorker.

    Nope. Miss me with that.

    whembly (b7cc46)

  24. “seem to nonetheless know for sure that it did not.”

    Surely Trump wouldn’t make the accusation without evidence. I’m sure he just forgot to show it.

    Davethulhu (14e9e4)

  25. @19

    I wonder if he’s just lying because it’s convenient, or if he got confused that the “black” in “Blackhawk” has a racial / DEI meaning?

    Let’s take a poll, is it more likely Trump is lying or stupid?

    Open to another option if any of his supports can articulate a plausible one.

    Time123 (296c59) — 1/30/2025 @ 1:33 pm

    Maybe stop trying so hard to feed your animus by pulling things out of your nether region?

    Here’s a far more plausible one:
    DEI is, at it’s roots, a Marxist concept designed to specifically divide people into racial groups and to give cover to Democrats push racist policies.

    Because race, being the all consuming qualities sought out by the prior Democrat administration, rather than competencies for the job at hand, is not that far-fetch to presume that we’re not sending our “best” in these situations.

    In sure, DEI is a principle that can, and likely, cause loss of preventable lives.

    Your visceral reaction to presume racial animus in Trump’s part, simply tells me that your priorities are out of whack.

    Trump’s been on the job for all of 5 minutes. We are still feeling the effect of the prior administration’s maladministration and it’s going to take more than 5 minutes for the Trump administration to figure out what the F truly happened.

    whembly (b7cc46)

  26. @24

    Surely Trump wouldn’t make the accusation without evidence. I’m sure he just forgot to show it.

    Davethulhu (14e9e4) — 1/30/2025 @ 2:00 pm

    Surely he wouldn’t accuse the Border Patrol for whipping those illegal migrants.

    …oh, wait.

    whembly (b7cc46)

  27. Dave, He just thinks his supporters are stupid enough to assume “back”hawk means it’s a DEI thing.

    Time123 (296c59)

  28. Whembly, I’m making fun of him and his defenders because they not doing what you said and waiting to find out what happened before declaring it DEI.

    I just can’t decide if it’s driven more by stupidity or dishonesty.

    Time123 (296c59)

  29. “Surely he wouldn’t accuse the Border Patrol for whipping those illegal migrants.”

    So was that bad, or was it ok? you can’t have it both ways.

    Davethulhu (14e9e4)

  30. @28

    Whembly, I’m making fun of him and his defenders because they not doing what you said and waiting to find out what happened before declaring it DEI.

    I just can’t decide if it’s driven more by stupidity or dishonesty.

    Time123 (296c59) — 1/30/2025 @ 2:06 pm

    The probably is, people don’t wait till all the facts are here.

    It’s an emotional response.

    It’s a human response to find a the culprit, and honestly, DEI isn’t a bad one to latch on to imo.

    whembly (b7cc46)

  31. @29

    So was that bad, or was it ok? you can’t have it both ways.

    Davethulhu (14e9e4) — 1/30/2025 @ 2:12 pm

    No, no.

    I’m absolutely having it both ways.

    You don’t get to push an obviously false premise milking that toxic cow, and then when you’re team is out of power demand some strict adherence to the facts.

    No.

    FO with that BS.

    whembly (b7cc46)

  32. “You don’t get to push an obviously false premise milking that toxic cow, and then when you’re team is out of power demand some strict adherence to the facts.”

    yes, instead you demand a strict adherence to the facts when you’re out of power, then push an obviously false premise milking that toxic cow. I understand now.

    Davethulhu (14e9e4)

  33. I’m just playing by your rules. (I never accused the border patrol of anything, so you’re strawmanning me in addition to everything else).

    Davethulhu (14e9e4)

  34. @29, it was bad. It was dishonest and bad leadership and since Biden did something bad nothing anyone else ever does or did can ever be criticized….I think that was the point…..

    Time123 (1de579)

  35. Furthermore, it’s simply a fact that the ATC was short-staffed due to ridiculous diversity quotas (aka DEI-ism) that saw thousands of qualified applications thrown in the garbage by the previous administration.

    HOWEVER, we don’t know what truly happens.

    Until then, there is only speculations.

    As speculated, if DEI hiring policies caused the ATC staffing shortages and the ATC stagging shortages are, in part, (speculation so far) then the effects of the DEI hiring policies are absolutely to blame.

    Speculatively, and allegedly.

    This isn’t some intricate Sherlock Holmes speculation.

    whembly (b7cc46)

  36. Whembly, So should I put you down for Trump being Stupid? Seems like you’re saying he’s stupid but that its understandable for him to jump to baseless conclusions and share them in a national press conference because saying it was caused by an unqualified minority is a human thing to do.

    Time123 (1de579)

  37. Toddler mother and grand mother arrested and taken to immigration jail for being illegal aliens for speaking spanish. Problem they were all american citizens. (DU)

    asset (0d71e1)

  38. @33

    (I never accused the border patrol of anything, so you’re strawmanning me in addition to everything else).

    Davethulhu (14e9e4) — 1/30/2025 @ 2:30 pm

    lol.

    Ok.

    whembly (b7cc46)

  39. @37, link?

    Time123 (1de579)

  40. Surely he wouldn’t accuse the Border Patrol for whipping those illegal migrants.

    Or accuse Trump inspired militias of terrorizing FEMA, or accuse Texas National Guard of letting migrants drown….

    lloyd (77510e)

  41. @36

    Whembly, So should I put you down for Trump being Stupid? Seems like you’re saying he’s stupid but that its understandable for him to jump to baseless conclusions and share them in a national press conference because saying it was caused by an unqualified minority is a human thing to do.

    Time123 (1de579) — 1/30/2025 @ 2:33 pm

    Yes, it’s dumb.

    Yes, it’s understandable and the painful loss of life, it’s all to easy to try to assign blame.

    Yes, its easy to make the case that the previous administration’s policies has made us unsafer with their policies.

    Welcome to the ugly parts politics.

    Political leaders will respond even without knowing the full facts and speculate.

    Here’s my shocked pikacu face.

    whembly (b7cc46)

  42. @35, Also, Whembly you’re doing the thing where you defend Tumps most recent stupidity because he’s on your team. Which seems to be pushing you to take some contorted positions. Are you sure you don’t just want to say something like “Yeah it was stupid of Trump to jump to conclusions because we don’t have any facts, but given what I know i won’t be shocked if his wild guess turns out to be right” or something similar?

    Time123 (1de579)

  43. Cross post. Seems like you took my advice before i even offered it.

    Time123 (1de579)

  44. Time123, just quit the BS and cut to the chase. Trump and all of us who voted for him are racists. Quit wasting everyone’s time.

    lloyd (77510e)

  45. @40 Also:
    “Trump fired all the IGs.” -Time123

    lloyd (77510e)

  46. Political leaders will respond even without knowing the full facts and speculate.

    Bad ones will. Good ones will urge calm and not fling baseless accusations that further divide us. But the voters had bad options and picked a lying sack of grievance so this is what we get. Mencken was right.

    Time123 (1de579)

  47. Hi Lloyd, I disagree with your comment in 44. While it’s common to universalize from your own perspective i don’t think everyone that voted for Trump is racist.

    I notice in 45 you seem to be confused about hyperbole again? Can you be clearer on what part you still don’t get?

    Time123 (1de579)

  48. Trump and all of us who voted for him are racists.

    Trump is not a racist. He is, however, quite stupid.

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  49. And he really should have been nowhere near that altitude. I bet he was trying to show off.

    Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/30/2025 @ 11:44 am

    In the middle of the night?

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  50. >DEI programs, itself, are racist.

    President Trump sees an accident and, without doing any investigation or letting the investigators have time to do an investigation, *assumes* that the reason for the accident is that *obviously* someone involved was inappropriately promoted or hired because of their race. It’s just common sense, right?

    The fact that he’s fixated on that and jumping to that conclusion without any evidence says something about *his* views on race — obviously the guilty party isn’t white and was promoted or hired unjustifiably.

    How is that not racist? It’s *possible* that this is true, but the evidence-free assumption that it’s true condemns Trump.

    aphrael (dbf41f)

  51. OK, maybe he’s a racist, too.

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  52. > The probably is, people don’t wait till all the facts are here.

    > It’s an emotional response.

    Sure, except that:

    (a) the nature of the emotional response indicates a lot about the person having it, and

    (b) any leader worth their salt as a leader doesn’t say this sort of thing publically without evidence to back it up.

    aphrael (dbf41f)

  53. His drunkenness among colleagues is documented.

    Paul Montagu (1888f5) — 1/30/2025 @ 12:04 pm

    Not on the job.

    whembly (b7cc46) — 1/30/2025 @ 12:55 pm

    Just wait.😉

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  54. > Trump and all of us who voted for him are racists.

    I don’t think all of Trump’s supporters are racits. I think it’s abundantly clear that Trump is.

    aphrael (dbf41f)

  55. @47 I get that you lied Time123, with the facts right in front of you. At least in Trump’s case the facts aren’t in yet.

    lloyd (77510e)

  56. @51 LMAO Love the timing.

    Time123 (1de579)

  57. it’s simply a fact that the ATC was short-staffed due to ridiculous diversity quotas

    Source?

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  58. In the middle of the night?

    To the passenger. Although since there was only one of those maybe not.

    But as it happens, the real fault was flying at 200 feet altitude in front of the runway approach. That flight path should be excluded. At the very least he should cross that at a much higher altitude than a landing plane is likely to be (e.g. 1000 feet).

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  59. To be fair to Hesgeth, a person who can avoid being drunk at work (even from the “hair of the dog”) and gets no DUIs might just be a binge drinker and not an alcoholic. Alcoholism is far more than occasionally getting sh1t-faced. Alcoholism is an addiction and like all addictions it’s immune to attempts to control.

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  60. @55 so you thought my statement, with a link to news article that provided the details was an attempt to deceive you and not an exaggeration for effect? And you think this despite my prompt acknowledgement of that actual number, and prompt apology for misleading or confusing you?

    I’m at a loss for what else I can say to rectify the situation.

    But I do appreciate you acknowledging that Trump is lying.

    So let’s see, Whembly, Kevin and Dave voting for “stupid” Aphreel is voting Racist, and you’re voting for Trump is lying.

    Seems like a wide split.

    Time123 (1de579)

  61. But I’m glad we can all agree he’s doing a terrible job on this Crash.

    Time123 (1de579)

  62. At least in Trump’s case the facts aren’t in yet.

    Why this doesn’t bother Trump is a mystery. Of course this is a LOT like Biden blaming every gun crime on the NRA and the Supreme Court. The facts don’t matter when you are preaching to the choir.

    Or maybe I misread. Are you arguing that the facts might eventually support what Trump said, in some sort of reality-alignment?

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  63. I don’t think the helicopter pilot was showboating. The helicopter crew was conducting a “Continuity of Government” training mission details here which (i’m assuming here) is an activity that needs to be done quickly and may possibly involve cutting some corners. I think that maybe this particular route needs to be re-evaluated.

    Davethulhu (14e9e4)

  64. This is probably a better link, more detail.

    Davethulhu (14e9e4)

  65. @57

    Source?

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/30/2025 @ 2:53 pm

    Google is your friend.
    https://viewfromthewing.com/diversity-in-the-skies-faas-controversial-shift-in-air-traffic-controller-hiring/v

    whembly (b7cc46)

  66. ATC staffing shortages has been a longstanding problem; the FAA barely breaks even between new hires and retirements, so they are permanently behind the 8-ball. Candidates need to obtain a security clearance, pass medical exams and background checks, and be willing to relocate to anywhere in the US. The FAA training alone can take several months, followed by 2-3 years of on the job training before becoming certified.

    Like most air traffic control towers, the one at Reagan National Airport was understaffed:

    Staffing at the air traffic control tower at Ronald Reagan National Airport was “not normal for the time of day and volume of traffic,” according to an internal preliminary Federal Aviation Administration safety report about the collision that was reviewed by The New York Times.

    The controller who was handling helicopters in the airport’s vicinity Wednesday night was also instructing planes that were landing and departing from its runways. Those jobs typically are assigned to two controllers, rather than one.
    ………..
    Like most of the country’s air traffic control facilities, the tower at Reagan airport has been understaffed for years. The tower there was nearly a third below targeted staff levels, with 19 fully certified controllers as of September 2023, according to the most recent Air Traffic Controller Workforce Plan, an annual report to Congress that contains target and actual staffing levels. The targets set by the F.A.A. and the controllers’ union call for 30.
    ………..

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  67. Here’s another:
    https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2024/may/14/dei-has-jeopardized-air-safety/

    whembly (b7cc46) — 1/30/2025 @ 3:13 pm

    Hardly a neutral source. It’s an an op-ed by Adam Laxalt.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  68. Google is your friend.
    https://viewfromthewing.com/diversity-in-the-skies-faas-controversial-shift-in-air-traffic-controller-hiring/v

    whembly (b7cc46) — 1/30/2025 @ 3:12 pm

    Vacation Discounts for Sex and New Award Alert Email Option?

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  69. Google is your friend.
    https://viewfromthewing.com/diversity-in-the-skies-faas-controversial-shift-in-air-traffic-controller-hiring/v

    whembly (b7cc46) — 1/30/2025 @ 3:12 pm

    Vacation Discounts for Sex and New Award Alert Email Option?

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/30/2025 @ 3:26 pm

    Apparently not for your argument. LOL!

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  70. 24: Davethulu – – I hope he has evidence as good as the media that wondered all thru 2024 “why Biden” didn’t get credit” for the terrific economy, while admonishing us that Joe was sharp as a tack and the GOP was relying on “deepfakes.”

    BTW did he say it was “caused” by DEI or only use the accident to remind people that DEI had wormed its way into the FAA and he was abolishing it?

    Harcourt Fenton Mudd (0c349e)

  71. @10

    This was caused by flying a helicopter through the glide path of incoming flights.

    STUPID EFFING HELICOPTER PILOT!!!1!!!

    Even when told to alter course to avoid the plane (by going behind it) the pilot apparently turned to try to pass in front of it.

    And he really should have been nowhere near that altitude. I bet he was trying to show off.

    Did you look at the DC helicopter Chart? The helicopter pilot was off by only a hundred feet. Had he been a hundred feet lower and a little farther east the two aircraft would have missed each other. It’s probable that the helicopter pilots mistook another airplane for the RJ. There was an American Airlines Airbus A319 in trail behind the RJ.

    https://skyvector.com

    purplehaze (2ff7c0)

  72. I meant to include this link

    purplehaze (2ff7c0)

  73. purplehaze (2ff7c0)

  74. LOL!!! The NewYorker.

    Denial noted, and it’s not the first time.

    Paul Montagu (3fa619)

  75. aphrael (dbf41f) — 1/30/2025 @ 2:49 pm

    President Trump sees an accident and, without doing any investigation or letting the investigators have time to do an investigation, *assumes* that the reason for the accident is that *obviously* someone involved was inappropriately promoted or hired because of their race. It’s just common sense, right?

    Trump didn’t do that. He talked only about the FAA wanting to hire people with disabilities.

    Sammy Finkelman (e4ef09)

  76. purplehaze, thanks for that link. Very informative.

    Nate (cfb326)

  77. Purple haze. Thank you for the informative comment.

    Time123 (296c59)

  78. Trump cannot stop campaigning. He needs to maintain his popular support in order to keep his Congressional support. He must keep pitching to the suckers and be careful not to wise up the chumps.

    Besides, what else can he do half as well?

    nk (430d00)

  79. Harcourt Fenton Mudd (0c349e) — 1/30/2025 @ 3:41 pm

    BTW did he say it was “caused” by DEI

    He didn’t say it was caused by DEA. I think that at first he thought it was the hiring of bad air traffic controllers that was responsible for the accident but by the time he gave the press conference he knew that ATC and the American Airlines pilot probably had no responsibility for the accident and he was careful not to say that. But he had a beautiful pearl (the argument that the FAA was incredibly stupid under Biden) and he didn’t want to give it up.

    I found Trump well informed (better informed than his appointees) except for not knowing what “Continuity of government” had to do with the reason for practice flight at night by the Blackhawk helicopter. He seemed to think it had something to do with the change in administrations or maybe was just another word for training. He also thought that the height of the plane and helicopter should have been different. But I think the plane was landing and this constantly changing height.

    Trump was quite knowledgeable about aviation (he owns a plane or two and one ran an airline for a short while) He said helicopters could stand still in the air or move up and down front and back and sideways.

    Military pilots called radio stations and were saying that w told the helicopter to avoid the airplane, and asked if they saw it and they said they did, they were looking at the wrong airplane. Maybe ATC should have said American Airlines or gave its position – like say at 8 O’Clock.hen ATC

    The crash took place over the river (400 feet up?) because the helicopter was flying a course, north to south along the river. At least at some point in the past someone had been careful to s
    select a route that was only over water.

    Sammy Finkelman (e4ef09)

  80. I think “Continuity of government” is about testing preparations for another 9/11.

    Sammy Finkelman (e4ef09)

  81. Some things should not be tested out.

    Sammy Finkelman (e4ef09)

  82. A confluence of events:

    ……..
    The Covid pandemic worsened a nationwide shortage of air traffic controllers, only for demand for air travel to soar once passengers returned. Politically motivated government funding showdowns made it harder to train new workers and replace outmoded safety equipment. And the agency at the center of it all, the Federal Aviation Administration, spent extended stretches without a permanent leader — while investigators expressed warnings about a spike in near-collisions at airports.
    ………
    The country had seen a steep spike in near-collisions involving commercial airplanes at airports, with five incidents in 2022 and 11 incidents in 2023 in which at least one passenger-carrying airplane came close to colliding with another plane or ground vehicle, according to the FAA’s database that tracks these events.

    Though 2024 had seen just one airport close call that aviation regulators classified as serious, the FAA was still investigating some incidents before the year’s end. Two passenger jets also had a near-collision scare at Reagan National last year, though the FAA classified the event as less dire.
    ……….
    The airline industry has called the air traffic control system “broken,” while an independent panel of aviation experts blamed “recurring gridlock” in Congress for making it harder for the FAA to do its job. The FAA has also faced repeated questions since 2018 about whether it’s applying rigorous enough scrutiny to plane manufacturers such as Boeing, following a pair of deadly accidents in Asia and Africa during Trump’s first term and a non-fatal blowout of a plane’s door panel over Oregon last year. (No Boeing aircraft were involved in Wednesday’s collision.)

    The FAA has turned its attention to its workforce shortage in recent months — the agency, with about 45,000 employees, is understaffed by about 3,000 controllers nationwide — with ongoing efforts to increase the pipeline of air traffic controllers with collegiate partnerships and maximum training at its academy in Oklahoma. But officials have conceded that workforce won’t start seeing net gains for some time.
    ……….
    The FAA has also not seen a steady continuity of leadership.

    Former Administrator Mike Whitaker stepped down just before Trump’s inauguration, after little more than a year into his five-year term atop the aviation agency. Before Whitaker took the job in October 2023, a series of acting chiefs had filled the role for 18 months, a vacancy that stretched out while GOP lawmakers questioned the qualifications of former President Joe Biden’s first pick for the job, Denver International Airport CEO Phil Washington.
    ………

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  83. The ATC system should be privatized, as it is in numerous countries such as Canada, the UK, Germany, Australia, Switzerland, and New Zealand. It would result in greater efficiencies and faster adoption of new technologies. The Clinton Administration made such a proposal:

    The corporate approach to privatization would enable the (proposed) USATS to correct inefficiencies and bypass bureaucratic red tape that plagues the present ATC system. The Clinton Administration’s proposal to create a federal air traffic control corporation essentially would shift responsibility from the FAA to the private sector – a major policy change designed to foster system modernization and increase efficiency without sacrificing safety. As envisioned by the Administration, a United States Air Traffic Services (USATS) corporation would be a financially independent, autonomous organization within the Transportation Department. Air traffic control, under the government’s plan, would be removed entirely from the Federal Aviation Administration and the corporation would be empowered to develop its o y rules pertaining to flight of aircraft within the ATC system. The FAA, however, would retain the authority to approve and implement such rules and continue to ensure regulatory compliance regarding operation of the overall system.

    References removed. But of course it never happened and we are stuck with a system developed in the 1930s.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  84. Privatizing ATC will increase the cost to airline passegengers and probably exacerbate a pilot shortage. The cost of flying is most other countries is much more expensive than here and for that reason foreign pilots train here.

    THE COSTS OF PRIVATIZING
    AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL
    AND HOW IT WILL IMPACT
    AIRLINE TRAVELERS

    Lawmakers and consumers should understand that a move to privatize ATC would likely
    formalize silos between divisions within the FAA, add unforeseen transition costs and
    increase operational costs within the industry. It could also result in additional taxes on
    airline fuel and other air travel necessities, as has been seen in some other countries.

    Privatizing ATC would also likely lead to a rise in the cost of airline tickets in the US.
    Consumers in Canada faced a 59 percent increase in ATC fees on airline tickets. In the
    United Kingdom air traffic control fees rose 30 percent, while fees remained relatively
    constant in the United States with six percent growth. These increases prompted
    Canadians to cross the border in search of cheaper airline tickets.

    Effects of privatizing ATC could also place a greater financial strain on smaller airports that
    serve rural communities and other populations located outside major urban centers.
    If those smaller airports were forced to limit flights or close due to high costs, many would
    be forced to drive much further to large urban airports in order to access the same service
    they are currently accustomed to receiving around their communities.

    https://www.european-flight-academy.com/en/location-usa

    After having studied a lot of theory and having passed your theoretical exam at the Luftfahrtbundesamt (LBA, German Federal Aviation Office), great things await you: You can go to the USA for a few months to learn how to fly in visual flight. In cooperation with United Aviate Academy (UAA), Lufthansa Aviation Training (LAT) conducts one of the practical training phases (single-engine phase) at the tradition-rich flight-school campus in Goodyear (Arizona, USA). In this training phase, as well, we are oriented by the highest standards of quality. A core team of Lufthansa Aviation Training works jointly with UAA to ensure that the training on site runs smoothly.

    UAA is a wholly owned subsidiary of United Airlines that trains future pilots for United Airlines and that has been cooperating with LAT in the field of pilot training since the close of 2021.

    purplehaze (2ff7c0)

  85. I read about the idea of privatizing air traffic control before (supposedly to make it safer, but that would depend on how exactly it is privatized) but didn’t read the idea that air traffic control would cost more money. Is that a function of something more than just being a bigger, more robust, system?

    Sammy Finkelman (e1abca)

  86. There was only one ATC handling the helicopter (plus some planes) and not the standard of two, CBS said.

    Sammy Finkelman (e1abca)

  87. ATC Privatization Pitfalls: Point by Point

    @87

    I read about the idea of privatizing air traffic control before (supposedly to make it safer, but that would depend on how exactly it is privatized) but didn’t read the idea that air traffic control would cost more money. Is that a function of something more than just being a bigger, more robust, system?

    Sammy Finkelman (e1abca) — 1/30/2025 @ 8:24 pm
    I read about the idea of privatizing air traffic control before (supposedly to make it safer, but that would depend on how exactly it is privatized) but didn’t read the idea that air traffic control would cost more money. Is that a function of something more than just being a bigger, more robust, system?

    Sammy Finkelman (e1abca) — 1/30/2025 @ 8:24 pm

    Rips argument is that privatization will result in greater efficiencies and although he didn’t say it reduce costs. The counter argument is that it won’t. It’s a private monopoly and the government is still involved. The other issue is who pays for what and who benefits from it. Most proposals that I’ve heard of propose user fees.

    Supporters of privatization often point to other countries that have taken similar steps, namely Canada and the United Kingdom, but close examination proves they should be warnings not validators.

    According to the Delta Airlines study, Canadian flyers faced a 59-percent increase in ATC fees on airline tickets and the U.K. saw a 30-percent jump following privatization.

    Since 1998 Canadian ATC has seen their revenue go up by around 21 percent while flight volume actually decreased by 16 percent, per the Delta Airlines study. The GAO also found that following privatization, many Canadian general aviation pilots in rural areas faced an increase in fees.

    Additionally, a 2015 study conducted by industry consultant Bob Mann showed that the FAA-run system is already more efficient than the Canadian counterpart to the tune of 8 cents per mile.

    Sen. Jerry Moran (R-Kan.) highlighted the unintended consequences and broken promises that came with privatization in Canada. “Proponents point to Canada as the model for how ATC privatization ought to be accomplished, but general aviation in Canada continues to pay not only aviation taxes but user fees as well, the industry has not received the fair treatment originally promised from privatization,” said Moran.

    Similarly, the United Kingdom has seen a decline in airport services outside of London and required a multi-million-dollar taxpayer bailout after the post-9/11 downturn. According to a 2015 study by the U.K. Airports Commission, privatization has hurt access to aviation in rural areas of the United Kingdom, and has had a detrimental effect on local economies.

    purplehaze (2ff7c0)

  88. @39 NBC hispanic.

    asset (20529b)

  89. D.E.I. comes from affirmative action. Back in the late 1960’s when black people were burning down a city a week. One week newark the next week detroit and returning black vietnam vets were joining militant groups like the black panthers and black liberation army to use their military training to strike back at institutional racism. The white powerful elites who run this country (called deep state now) decided if we give black people jobs in the building they might not burn the building down! What a concept. Writing soul brother on window of tiffanys or sax fifth avenue wasn’t working to well. The donor class pushing D.E.I. was a lot cheaper then letting Bernie Sanders and AOC take over the democrat party with their 15$ dollar minimum wage and 70% income tax.

    asset (20529b)

  90. Purple Haze, I’m really loving your comments and participation. Thank you for sharing what you know.

    Time123 (199990)

  91. Asset, It’s like the Romney —> Trump path for the Dems.

    “If centrists like Biden can’t win and accomplish something, and if our political opponents label any democrat as a godless communist, we might as well vote for the extreme members of out party and see what they can do.”

    I can see it happening. Harris sucked in almost every way, but she was to the left edge of center left. AOC and Sanders aren’t.

    Time123 (199990)

  92. @75

    Potomac Mid Air UPDATE 1/30/25

    purplehaze (2ff7c0) — 1/30/2025 @ 4:04 pm

    Very informative purple. Thanks for this.

    whembly (b7cc46)

  93. purplehaze (2ff7c0) — 1/30/2025 @ 7:55 pm

    Users, not the taxpayers, should pay. Why should the ATC be subsidized by non-flying taxpayers?

    Rip Murdock (3644d2)

  94. ATC controllers are still using paper strips to track aircraft. The FAA has been trying to implement its Next Generation Air Transportation System (NextGen) since 2007 and it isn’t scheduled to fully implemented until 2030, by which time the FAA would have spent $35B installing technology will probably be obsolete.

    Rip Murdock (3644d2)

  95. @95

    Users, not the taxpayers, should pay. Why should the ATC be subsidized by non-flying taxpayers?

    Rip Murdock (3644d2) — 1/31/2025 @ 6:50 am

    Because they benefit from it. Privatized ATC will be nothing more than a government sanctioned monopoly that is still regulated by the government and controlled by special interests rather than competitive market forces. I gotta give Delta Airlines credit for standing out from the crowd. Some functions of ATC are already outsourced.

    https://www.natca.org/federal-contract-tower-air-traffic-controllers/

    Sean Wright (05dea1)

  96. @95

    Users, not the taxpayers, should pay. Why should the ATC be subsidized by non-flying taxpayers?

    Rip Murdock (3644d2) — 1/31/2025 @ 6:50 am

    Because they benefit from it. Privatized ATC will be nothing more than a government sanctioned monopoly that is still regulated by the government and controlled by special interests rather than competitive market forces. I gotta give Delta Airlines credit for standing out from the crowd. Some functions of ATC are already outsourced.

    Federal Contract Tower Air Traffic Controllers

    Purplehaze (05dea1)

  97. Rip Murdock (3644d2) — 1/31/2025 @ 7:07 am

    In addition, relying on congressional appropriations is ridiculous for an enterprise that can be run like business, unlike many other government operations. It took three temporary reauthorizations of FAA’s funding authority before a long-term reauthorization was enacted in May 2024.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  98. Purplehaze (05dea1) — 1/31/2025 @ 8:58 am

    The FAA has been doing such a bang-up job so far that we can’t change, huh?

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  99. Privatized ATC will be nothing more than a government sanctioned monopoly that is still regulated by the government and controlled by special interests rather than competitive market forces.

    That’s just the nature of the service. But a privatized ATC would be free of government personnel rules, be able to reallocate resources with congressional approval, and implement technological change faster than taking 23 years.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  100. Privatized ATC will be nothing more than a government sanctioned monopoly…….

    No different than private utilities are monopolies that are sanctioned and regulated by the government.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  101. Correction to post 100:

    But a privatized ATC would be free of government personnel rules, be able to reallocate resources without congressional approval…..

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  102. But a privatized ATC would be free of government personnel rules, be able to reallocate resources without congressional approval…..

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/31/2025 @ 9:20 am

    That isn’t necessarily true. Case in point the airlines and The Federal Aviation Administration Reauthorization Act of 2010 and the 1500 hour rule. If there was ever reason why Congress shouldn’t be involved, the 1500 hour rule is it.

    https://www.congress.gov/bill/111th-congress/house-bill/5900/text

    The meat and potatoes of it is on the last two pages.

    Purplehaze (05dea1)

  103. Purplehaze, You have a lot of knowledge this. Thank you for sharing.

    Time123 (17fa64)

  104. Time123 (17fa64) — 1/31/2025 @ 11:09 am

    Since we’re talking about ATC, It might come as a surprise to you and others that many airports in this country don’t have air traffic control towers.

    Accident: Jetblue A320 at Hayden on Jan 22nd 2022, tail strike on takeoff, B350 on short final in opposite direction There is a link to the NTSB’s final report in the linked article.

    At 1156, the JetBlue flight crew announced on CTAF that they had received their clearance and would be departing on “runway one zero”. Within 5 seconds, the King Air’s flight crew reported they “had a king air on final two eight” and that they “had been calling.” JetBlue’s flight crew replied on CTAF that they thought the King Air was “8 or 9 miles out”, to which the King Air replied they were 4 miles out, “even less than that.”

    The JetBlue first officer, (pilot monitoring (PM)) stated that they looked for the airplane both visually and on their onboard traffic alert and collision avoidance system (TCAS) and did not see any air traffic. JetBlue flight crew acknowledged the King Air, looked for traffic approaching runway 10, and announced on CTAF that they were beginning their takeoff from runway 10 at HDN. The King Air’s flight crew replied that they were on a short final and “I hope you don’t hit us.” According to ADS-B data, when JetBlue taxied onto runway 10 the King Air was on a reciprocal course 4.91 nautical miles from JetBlue.

    JetBlue’s crew increased thrust for takeoff about 1157. About 11 seconds later, just prior to the 80 knots call out, the PM asked the PF if the King Air was on runway 28. The captain (pilot flying (PF)) asked “is he?” to which the PM said “Yes, he is on 28, do you see him?” to which the PF said no. After the event, the JetBlue first officer explained that he observed traffic directly ahead on the TCAS during the takeoff run and pointed it out on the display to the captain.

    About 20 seconds after JetBlue started their take off on runway 10, the flight crew of the King Air asked JetBlue if they were going to do a quick turn-out, to which they replied, “yes sir.” Concurrent to this conversation, JetBlue’s captain pitched the airplane up, 24 knots before rotation speed, to avoid the approaching King Air and subsequently struck the tail of the airplane on the runway’s surface. He began a climbing right turn away from the traffic indicated on the TCAS. JetBlue’s captain and first officer both stated they never visually acquired the approaching King Air. According to ADS-B data, when JetBlue began its right turn after departure from runway 10 the King Air was on a reciprocal course with 2.27 nautical miles of separation between the converging airplanes. See figure 2.

    Based on FDR data, the tail strike occurred about 1157, the crew continued their departure procedures and discussed if they experienced a tail strike, initially deciding to continue the flight to FLL. At 1203, they asked the flight attendants what they felt in the back of the airplane, to which the flight attendants stated they felt a tail strike. At this time, the aircraft was about 16,000 feet in altitude. Within 2 minutes of getting the flight attendant feedback, about 20,000 feet altitude, they contacted the airline’s maintenance controller for guidance although the aircraft had not annunciated any warnings regarding a pressurization issue. About 5 minutes later, when climbing through 26,000 feet, the maintenance controller recommended they land immediately so the airplane could be inspected for damage. They leveled the aircraft at FL310 and decided to divert to DEN, where they made a safe landing.

    Operations at non towered airports

    Nontowered airports—those not served by an operating air traffic control (ATC) tower—are much more common than towered fields. In fact, nearly 20,000 airports in the United States are nontowered, compared to approximately 500 that have towers.

    Purplehaze (05dea1)

  105. Transcript of the press briefing Trump held at the White House about the D.C. aviation disaster yesterday morning:

    https://www.rev.com/transcripts/trump-speaks-on-d-c-plane-crash

    Sammy Finkelman (e4ef09)

  106. After the crash of TWA Flight 800, and after 9/11 it took some considerable length of time to get recordings of air traffic control exchange.

    But now there are people who keep track of them

    https://www.liveatc.net

    That’s why we know this:

    https://www.newser.com/story/363523/air-traffic-control-gave-seemingly-ordinary-instruction.html

    Man Admits Flying Drone That Hit Firefighting Plane Opinion: Wildfires Taught Me a Lesson About Help South Carolina Readies for Third Execution in 4 Months Key Inflation Indicator Rose in December Details of 67 Killed in Potomac Plane Crash Are Coming Out Day Before Potomac Crash, a Near-Miss How to Watch Concert for California Wildfire Relief Air Force Takes Over Deportation Mission Senate Confirms Burgum FAA Says Controller Had Two Assignments At Site of 12-Story Condo Collapse, a New 12-Story Condo Trump Blames DEI for Role in Plane Crash
    US /
    Potomac plane crash
    Air Traffic Control Gave ‘Seemingly Ordinary’ Instruction
    Moments later, the two aircraft collided over the Potomac

    By Rob Quinn, Newser Staff
    Posted Jan 31, 2025 11:34 AM CST

    Air Traffic Control Gave ‘Seemingly Ordinary’ Instruction
    Boats work the scene of an aircraft collision near Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport, Thursday, Jan. 30, 2025, in Arlington, Virginia. (AP Photo/Alex Brandon)
    See 2 more photos
    Staffing levels at Reagan National Airport’s air traffic control tower were below normal during Wednesday night’s tragedy, according to the FAA, but retired American Airlines pilot Richard Levy tells NPR that he can find no fault with the instructions the controller gave both aircraft. The Wall Street Journal reports that the controller “relayed a seemingly ordinary inquiry and instruction” just after 8:47pm.

    “PAT25, do you have the CRJ in sight? PAT25, pass behind the CRJ,” the controller asked the Black Hawk helicopter, using the aviation shorthand for Canadair Regional Jet to refer to the American Airlines Bombardier jet that was moments away from landing.

    The pilot responded that he saw the jet and would use “visual separation,” meaning that he “would keep an eye on the aircraft and make sure he was staying a safe distance away,” per the New York Times. It’s not clear, however, whether the pilot was looking at the correct aircraft, NPR notes.

    There were two airliners of the same type in the vicinity – one taking off and one landing. It was the one that was landing that the helicopter crashed into.

    Seconds later, the two aircraft collided. A scream of “Oh my…!” could be heard in the background of transmissions as air traffic control scrambled to reroute flights to other airports, the Journal reports.

    An alert sounded from the control tower at 8:48pm, the Washington Post reports. “Crash crash crash. This an alert 3. Crash crash crash.”

    The airliner was exactly where it was supposed to be. The helicopter was where it is never supposed to go.

    Sammy Finkelman (e4ef09)

  107. There was a near miss the previous day, and the ATC made what turned out to be a fatal decision by directing the airliner to a different than usual runway,

    Sammy Finkelman (9b4d3c)

  108. Trump got a question on Rwanda – an almost ignored war – and seemed knowledgeable – at least familiar with the situation.

    He actually seemed solemn much of the time in that press briefing,

    He grades reporters on their questions. As good or bad.

    Sammy Finkelman (9b4d3c)

  109. The Black Hawk pilot is responsible for the disaster. Too high and out of the corridor.

    Kevin M (a9545f)

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