Inauguration Day
[guest post by Dana]
Well, it’s Inauguration Day. Donald Trump has promised that he will make close to 100 executive orders today:
“Within hours of taking office, I will sign dozens of executive orders — close to 100 to be exact — many of which I will be describing in my address tomorrow,” Trump said to a crowd of donors and allies at a pre-inauguration dinner Sunday.
He added, “With the stroke of my pen I will revoke dozens of destructive and radical executive orders and actions of the Biden administration, and by this time tomorrow, they will all be null and void.”
One thing we can be relatively sure of, is that Trump will not end the war in Ukraine today or tomorrow, as he promised. But didn’t we already know that his Big Talk is just cheap talk, and anyone can blather about anything at anytime. Consider what his incoming team said:
“Let’s set it at 100 days and move all the way back and figure a way we can do this in the near term to make sure that the solution is solid, it’s sustainable, and that this war ends so that we stop the carnage,” retired Lt. Gen. Keith Kellogg, Trump’s pick to serve as special envoy to Ukraine, told Fox News last month.
Sen. Marco Rubio, R-Fla., Trump’s choice for secretary of state, told senators. . . that forging a peace deal between Ukraine and Russia will be “very difficult.”
“This will not be easy,” Rubio said. “Conflicts of this nature that have historical underpinnings to it are going to require a lot of hard diplomacy and tough work, but that’s something that needs to happen.”
Anyway, I’m relieved to know that both Donald and Melania Trump are looking out for our nation’s good as they each released their own cryptocurrency just days before the inauguration. Note:
During the campaign, his family launched a cryptocurrency company called World Liberty Financial – which aims to lead “a financial revolution by dismantling the stranglehold of traditional financial institutions”, and is also selling a crypto coin.
The new Trump coin was launched from Trump Organization affiliate CIC Digital LLC, which is linked to previous sales of crypto collectable NFTs launched in 2022 that made millions of dollars. . .
“This Trump Meme celebrates a leader who doesn’t back down, no matter the odds,” the website said.
Thousands protest in Washington against Trump.It included a disclaimer noting the coin is “not intended to be, or the subject of” an investment opportunity or a security and was “not political and has nothing to do with” any political campaign, political office or government agency.
Yet, a wise man issued a warning not just about the cryptocurrency matter, but what is an apt warning at large, regarding Trump’s tenure:
It’s not mere grifting for cash, but a freeway for corruption. Buy & sell the presidency from anywhere in the world. As I’ve warned, it’s not what’s hidden that destroys the democratic system, but what’s done in the open. Bending norms, exploiting loopholes, & breaking laws that have no working mechanism for punishment (other than impeachment…) degrades the democratic system more than simply being a crook. It’s not cutting through bureaucracy, it’s corruption that destroys accountability & trust.
On this day, I’m thankful for the peaceful transfer of power. And I do hope for the best outcomes for the U.S. in the next four years. Given the world’s tenuous grasp on peace, may we maintain our robust relationships with allies across the globe. But forgive me for not being too optimistic. With all that we experienced and witnessed with our 45th president, it’s difficult to be excited about our 47th president.
—Dana
Hello.
Dana (f1a254) — 1/20/2025 @ 8:51 amThe nightmare of the past 4 years is finally over
NJRob (039c00) — 1/20/2025 @ 9:02 amFOUR MORE YEARS!1!1!!!
What could go wrong?
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/20/2025 @ 9:04 amThat hat!
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/20/2025 @ 9:05 amIn all fairness, Trump has a unique opportunity to have learned both from his first term, but also from defeat and opposition. Truly he needs someone behind him to say “momento mori”, but still I expect this term to be less chaotic than the first.
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/20/2025 @ 9:08 am@3
Much better than the last 4 and a hypothetical Harris/Walz administration that’s for sure.
whembly (477db6) — 1/20/2025 @ 10:15 amI think that even the “historians” will view Trump’s second term far more effective than his first. They may quibble about the policies.
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/20/2025 @ 10:30 amTrump is now ragging on the J6 committee, giving Biden unintentional cover.
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/20/2025 @ 10:33 amTrump preparing sweeping pardons for Jan. 6 defendants, with commutations for violent offenders
………
The planned commutations for those who attacked police goes well beyond what many of his allies anticipated he would be prepared to extend to the Jan. 6 defendants — and paves the way for potentially hundreds of supporters, some sentenced to years behind bars for vicious assaults on police — to be released in the coming days.
………..
In addition to the commutations, Trump plans to extend full pardons to his supporters who were not charged with engaging in violence on Jan. 6. Sources tell ABC News that some of Trump’s top advisers have been pushing him for days to issue these sweeping pardons.
………..
Sources tell ABC News that hundreds of individuals currently serving prison time for violent offenses they committed on Jan. 6 will be freed as a result — and the commutations will likely extend to two of the most high-profile defendants charged in connection with the attack, Oath Keepers Founder Stewart Rhodes and Proud Boys leader Enrique Tarrio.
Trump is expected to further direct the incoming attorney general to move to dismiss all pending indictments against Jan. 6 defendants who have not yet had their cases fully adjudicated, which would shutter roughly 470 ongoing cases, according to recently released numbers by the District of Columbia U.S. Attorney’s Office.
Rip Murdock (57fc2b) — 1/20/2025 @ 11:49 am…………
Of the nearly 1,600 individuals have faced charges associated with the Capitol attack, according to figures released by the U.S. Attorney’s Office, 608 individuals have faced charges for assaulting, resisting or interfering with law enforcement trying to protect the complex that day, the office said. Approximately 140 law enforcement officers were injured during the riot, the DOJ has said.
…………
The difference between Trump’s coming J6 pardons and Biden’s midnight pardons is that Trump’s will name the crimes or activities for which the pardon is granted. Biden’s were so wide that tax evasion, sale of secrets, conspiracy, foreign agency or influence peddling are all off the table.
“No one is above the law”
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/20/2025 @ 12:12 pm— Joe Biden (King’s “X”)
It might be fun to charge Fauci or James Biden with being a foreign agent and let them demur citing the pardon.
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/20/2025 @ 12:15 pmAgain, beating a dead horse. Specificity isn’t a requirement.
Rip Murdock (57fc2b) — 1/20/2025 @ 1:36 pmI hope that we can all agree that the sum total of all this is double plus ungood. I see the prior administration as awful, and this just marginally less awful.
But that in no way means good.
I am watching friends of mine on social media—good people (in one case, a married couple with grandchildren)—call each other vile names for being on either side of this pungent garbage.
Why not hope for better? I don’t know how we can get there, but our current situation is a slide downhill.
I wish every single commenter the very best wishes for the coming years.
Simon Jester (c8876d) — 1/20/2025 @ 2:03 pm@14
I echo this.
You’re good dude Simon.
whembly (477db6) — 1/20/2025 @ 2:24 pmwhembly, I see so many people broken over politics. I remember Nixon very well. And Reagan. And so much else.
We are still good people, even when we disagree. Or can be.
Simon Jester (c8876d) — 1/20/2025 @ 2:32 pm#13 Simon, when Obama was sworn in the first time, I wished he would succeed as president, because that would be best for the nation. (I added that I did not expect that he would, because he was unqualified — obviously. He did somewhat worse than I predicted.)
I don’t recall whether I did the same in 2017, though my thinking on the subject has not changed.
There was less reason for hope in 2013, and less reason, now, because we have records to look at. Both men appeal to our tribal instincts, and depend for their support on dividing us. (Obama sneakily, Trump blatantly.)
Our enemies are delighted by these divisions.
I fear that we are going to have to rely on the skill of Mitch McConnell, among others, and, possibly, the 25th Amendment to protect us.
One positive sign is that the Supreme Court has restored our Civil Rights laws, which makes some kinds of conflicts less likely.
I am so sorry about your friends, and I wish you the best in this coming year.
Jim Miller (12e4fb) — 1/20/2025 @ 2:36 pmJim, did you ever read “A Canticle for Leibowitz“? In this SF novel, in the aftermath of a nuclear war, there was a deliberate move away from reason and thought…people called one another simpletons as a compliment:
I fear we are experiencing not exactly Miller’s nightmare, but an echo.
Simon Jester (c8876d) — 1/20/2025 @ 2:46 pmMusk needs to be a little more careful about his arm movements. People make take it wrong, or take it right.
Paul Montagu (7d07c9) — 1/20/2025 @ 2:49 pmSimon – Yes, I have read that classic book, and have been thinking about it in recent years. Especially since the reductions in nuclear weapons stopped when the Loser came into office.
(Links omitted.)
Jim Miller (12e4fb) — 1/20/2025 @ 3:05 pm@Simon@13 I can understand that a gay person or a woman in a red state or a person from coal country might be vocally furious at a person who voted for the other side because they feel as though they are in actual danger from one side or the other. I don’t understand it from a person who is not in a position where they feel endangered. Disliking intensely or being inconvenienced by a politician is not, IMO, a reason to alienate your loved ones.
Nic (120c94) — 1/20/2025 @ 3:14 pmNazi smear on Musk
steveg (626b3a) — 1/20/2025 @ 3:23 pmJust what was so wonderful about the 46th President? He was what brought Trump back by making Trump, in retrospect, look good.
DN (ee4b9a) — 1/20/2025 @ 3:33 pmAgain, beating a dead horse. Specificity isn’t a requirement.
Neither is being honest, nor not taking a bribe for the pardon a requirement. But I would comment on such.
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/20/2025 @ 4:06 pmI actually think that this 2nd term will be much more stable than the first. It’s not the end of the Republic. It may be the end of progressivism. It may result in a setback to the administrative state. It may signal a hiatus of favoritism to the upper-middle-class. It may, in short, not be what you want.
But you’ll get over it.
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/20/2025 @ 4:13 pmNic: you wrote the following
I agree wholeheartedly. My parents and brother (all passed away) were uber conservative. They gave me trouble about my own more lukewarm libertarian beliefs for decades. Mind you, not trying to debate or understand me, but unfairly criticizing and insulting my own values. My brother got past it, as did my father. I finally got past the hurt and would simply reply “I love you” to them. Because I did, and I do, no matter what they believed politically.
So when I got to graduate school, and was treated like I was a terrible person for my very moderate views, it reminded me of growing up.
The good part of this is that I have resolutely insisted that every student in my classroom or my research lab is treated politely and kindly, no matter their politics. Period.
Anyway, when I see people trying to hurt their own loved ones, it makes me so very sad.
Simon Jester (c8876d) — 1/20/2025 @ 4:14 pmKevin M, I have no crystal ball, but there may be something like a 3rd centrist party rising. Who knows?
Simon Jester (c8876d) — 1/20/2025 @ 4:15 pmWhere? The American “first passed the post, winner takes all” political system naturally supports a two-parties. The rare instances when there have been multiple parties in the past,one of the major parties has been dying. At this time, neither the Democrats nor Republicans are anywhere near political extinction, as evidenced by the narrow margins in the House and Senate.
Rip Murdock (57fc2b) — 1/20/2025 @ 4:23 pmNic,
I don’t really care about how some Pollyannas feel, just because they believe what the scaremongers tell them. Things that won’t happen: They won’t be rounding up gays and putting them in camps, they won’t be telling folks they can’t dress weirdly, they won’t be overturning Obergefell.
Back in 2016, Trump said he thought that Obergefell was settled law. He hasn’t said otherwise since. People who believe he is somehow going to overturn that are scaring themselves unnecessarily.
They might refuse to let men pretend they are women to get all the trophies, but complaining about that while using the word “fair” seems hypocritical and overwrought. They might not allow permanent physical changes (by surgery or medicine) to minors’ sexual features. That might be harmful, or it might be good. But policy you don’t like isn’t the end of the world.
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/20/2025 @ 4:25 pmI think you’re right, with Congress and the courts backing Trump, there be fewer avenues for dissent.
Rip Murdock (57fc2b) — 1/20/2025 @ 4:26 pmGeez, Rip. You can’t even let one of the most honest brokers here have some room to speculate?
You have to play whack-a-mole on everyone. Chill out.
Simon, good to see you. I hope you are well.
BuDuh (ac9b17) — 1/20/2025 @ 4:28 pmPost 29 in context:
I think you’re right, with Congress and the courts backing Trump, there be fewer avenues for dissent, both internally within the Republican Party and externally among voters at large.
Rip Murdock (57fc2b) — 1/20/2025 @ 4:30 pmsteveg (626b3a) — 1/20/2025 @ 3:23 pm
In the last most recent speech by Donald Trump, at the end of which he signed some executive orders (but none on immigration, though he mentioned it in his speech) and signed no J6 pardons, I saw shots of Ivanka and Jared Kushner and I think somebody else, put their hand over their heart, but they didn’t move their arm away like Elon Musk did. Musk actually thrust it out. I wonder if anyone told him to do that.
Sammy Finkelman (c2c77e) — 1/20/2025 @ 4:33 pmI am, BuDuh. Thank you.
Of course I have no idea what the future holds. Social media is still running the show, and seems to really promote extreme views.
But…
Kevin M, I have been struck by the percentages of the overall public that don’t agree with what “the Clerisy” seem to think (that is, what I hear on campus every day, each day).
I guess it comes down to the future not being as horrible as our nightmares, or as beautiful as our daydreams.
Or so I hope.
Simon Jester (c8876d) — 1/20/2025 @ 4:34 pmIt begins. Henry Tarrio, the former Proud Boys leader who sentenced to 22 years behind bars for seditious conspiracy, was just released from prison, the first of Trump’s J6 pardons and one of the worst J6 pardons.
Paul Montagu (7d07c9) — 1/20/2025 @ 4:35 pmWhere? The American “first passed the post, winner takes all” political system naturally supports a two-parties [system].
This is unfortunately true. What happens is that the two parties become malleable, and there is much gnashing of teeth when that happens. “How can you DO THAT to MY party!?!” But these changes aren’t permanent — Goldwater’s 1964 takeover of the GOP didn’t hold. McGovern’s takeover of the Democrat party also failed. Reagan and Clinton succeeded, and Trump seems to hold sway. The jury is out on MAGA, he may be as unpopular as Biden 4 years from now.
I would like to see something other than FPtP, at least at the legislative level. One vote-multiple winner districts would at least smear the results (and make all gerrymanders impossible). I don’t think that ranked-choice will have much effect, other than letting 3rd parties pretend to have a chance.
The only thing that COULD happen in the current system is a one-off independent challenge, like TR’s or Perot’s, but when those fail they usually result in victory for the odd-man-out (e.g. Wilson & Clinton) so it’s a crap shoot at best.
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/20/2025 @ 4:36 pm*aren’t necessarily permanent.
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/20/2025 @ 4:37 pmMcConnell is not in the best of health these days (really no different than Biden); one of these days he will permanently freeze up. He’s a backbencher with views out of sync with today’s Republican Party.
The likelihood of a cabinet who owe their jobs to Trump (including VP Vance) declaring him disabled is just as likely as VP Harris doing the same to Biden. Which is to say not at all.
Rip Murdock (57fc2b) — 1/20/2025 @ 4:41 pmIF a real third party did arise, threatening a major, it would likely be the MAGA Party splitting off in 2028 because the GOP didn’t chose the MAGA nominee.
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/20/2025 @ 4:41 pmPaul
Jonah Goldberg- no fan of Trump
“The thing at the 55 second mark, where he grabs his chest and says “my heart goes out to you” is supposed to be a deliberate Nazi salute? Sorry, not buying it.”
Google the video and add the context and no, Musk doesn’t need to be careful
steveg (626b3a) — 1/20/2025 @ 4:42 pmMarco Rubio is confirmed.
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/20/2025 @ 4:46 pmThe easiest one to confirm, though one wonders a) how much authority he will really have; and b) how long will he last in the job.
My speculation: less than two years.
Rip Murdock (57fc2b) — 1/20/2025 @ 4:51 pmI will also speculate that all of Trump’s cabinet nominees will be confirmed.
Rip Murdock (57fc2b) — 1/20/2025 @ 4:54 pmThe things that most disturb me are
1) The normalizing of anti-vax idiocy.
2) The attack on birthright citizenship
3) Pardons of violent criminals and seditious conspirators.
I wonder whether the extent of today’s pardons reflects displeasure with Biden’s shameful self-serving blanket pardons.
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/20/2025 @ 4:57 pmI will also speculate that all of Trump’s cabinet nominees will be confirmed.
Tulsi will not be confirmed. Hegseth will be. RFK Jr will require unanimous GOP support and I don’t think he’ll get it.
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/20/2025 @ 4:58 pmtrump does appeal to simpletons you can say, Every recent stupid trope was repeated in his inaugural address except for the purchase of Greenland. When he mentioned renaming the Gulf of Mexico the Gulf of America, Hillary Clinton was seen laughing,(I wouldn’t know if that laugh was sincere)
The worst thing he said, which he kept repeaating many times during the day was hat other countries (he didn’t name any except Venezuela, by citing a putative statistic that crime was down 74% there) were releasing “millions” of people from
jails and insane asylums (!) and sending the0 t6 them to the United States and that countries from all over the world were. At least he gave the total number of such people he would deport as being in the millions. As if the Mexican drug cartels would transport them for free. I read a column where somebody said that not a one of the Venezuelan asylum seekers he interviewed (last year or in 2023?) were actually coming directly from Venezuela.
They all had work permits from Colombia and even citizenship in Brazil and they all tore up such documents right before entering the United States.
They had worked for years in those countries (and presumably were immigrating for the usual reasons – to make more money, advance the education or careers of their children or to go where most of the rest of their family went) Indeed how else could they have saved enough money to pay for their passage?
And Trump says they are criminals released from jail, and even more absurd, people let out of mental institutions, which can sound scary to people. Now gang members have joined the (secondary) migration.
Sammy Finkelman (c2c77e) — 1/20/2025 @ 4:59 pmKevin M #43: I agree heartily. The hardest part for me is listening to people who have no training in biology carrying on about vaccines. I mean, I guess it is how lawyers feel when I carry on about laws.
Sigh.
Simon Jester (c8876d) — 1/20/2025 @ 5:04 pmA safe prediction: Rubio will be the only member of Trump’s cabinet that will receive a majority of Democrat votes (he was confirmed unanimously.) It’s possible that John Ratcliffe as DCI might receive a majority of Democrats on the floor (his nomination cleared the Senate Intelligence Committee 14-3), but the CIA isn’t a cabinet department.
Rip Murdock (57fc2b) — 1/20/2025 @ 5:05 pmThe Rubio vote gives me hope, a little bit. 99-0. So Team R cannot claim Team D is uniformly partisan. At least for now.
Simon Jester (c8876d) — 1/20/2025 @ 5:06 pmNot sure why my post 49 is moderated.
Rip Murdock (57fc2b) — 1/20/2025 @ 5:08 pmAt Trump’s inauguration rally, he said:
The audience applauded his announcement.
Dana (77fb05) — 1/20/2025 @ 5:11 pmIt was a major theme of Trump’s campaign, so probably not.
Rip Murdock (57fc2b) — 1/20/2025 @ 5:11 pmYour comment was released, Rip. I don’t know why it was in moderation.
Dana (77fb05) — 1/20/2025 @ 5:12 pmThis past election showed moderates were more than willing to drift towards MAGA given the alternative, and right now there is a better than even chance the trend continues.
The MAGA candidate is very likely to be JD Vance even though he is more moderate than Trump. Gavin Newsom will be pushing the CA crazy hard in the primary- which will be a bright red flag for moderates.
steveg (626b3a) — 1/20/2025 @ 5:14 pmThe Democrats can’t avoid having at least some CA crazy permeate their run, no matter who they eventually choose.
Question is how much CA stink Newsom can put on Shapiro (who could win PA and its 19 EC votes)
It’s weird that when I reworded my comment it sailed through.
Rip Murdock (57fc2b) — 1/20/2025 @ 5:14 pmSounds like a more aggressive version of:
NJRob (eb56c3) — 1/20/2025 @ 5:16 pmHere is the pardon order.
Dana (50af5d) — 1/20/2025 @ 5:18 pmThis means that 500-plus MAGAs who were guilty of violence, either assaulting law enforcement or damaging Capitol property, were given full pardons by Trump, an expected unpatriotic un-American act.
Paul Montagu (7d07c9) — 1/20/2025 @ 5:24 pm@kevin@28 Roe was settled law as well. I can’t blame gays for thinking that religious conservatives would like to end their marriages, or that they might like the freedom to punch a gay dude for coming on to them (seriously, just say no, that’s what girls do when men they aren’t interested in come on to them). (Pollyanas are people who are hopelessly optimistic, not hopelessly pessimistic. 😛 )
Nic (120c94) — 1/20/2025 @ 5:26 pmI think Gabbard has a fighting chance, given her confirmation conversion on Section 702. Most Republicans believe that the President deserves to have the cabinet he wants.
As to RFKJr., he may get some Senate Democrat votes.
Rip Murdock (57fc2b) — 1/20/2025 @ 5:27 pm@Rob@55 ??
Nic (120c94) — 1/20/2025 @ 5:28 pmAll but 6 of the people in jail on charges related to January 6, 2021 (whose cases are being reviewed) are being released from jail tonight. People were waiting outside the jail for hours. The Bureau of Prisons was given a list shortly after noon, which means before Trump signed something in the Oval Office. All those being released got a full and unconditional pardon.
Sammy Finkelman (c2c77e) — 1/20/2025 @ 5:30 pmUhhhh, no.
Rip Murdock (57fc2b) — 1/20/2025 @ 5:31 pmPaul Montagu, it is a disgrace that Trump has done this. And that he listed Stuart Rhodes first makes his point loud and clear.
This is a step moving away from the rule of law and toward a new day where people can be relieved of their convictions, because they were on the side of the president.
Dana (b6d07b) — 1/20/2025 @ 5:32 pm@kevin@28 Roe was settled law as well
That is preposterous. Things that are “settled law” aren’t featured in 50 years of political-donation scare letters and every single Supreme Court nomination hearing. How many times do you think they asked prospective justices about, say, Loving. Even the most contentious Warren Court decision (Brown) was old news in 10 years.
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/20/2025 @ 5:36 pmBiden’s pardon of Fauci covers from 2014 to now. What has Fauci been doing for all these years?
NJRob (eb56c3) — 1/20/2025 @ 5:37 pmThe J-6 trials were all star chamber show trials. They convicted people of attacking police who never touched a police officer. A pox on those trials.
NJRob (eb56c3) — 1/20/2025 @ 5:40 pmUhhhh, no.
Were they pardoned for any crimes they might have committed, or only those related to the events of January 6th?
That is not a blanket pardon, it is limited to specific acts.
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/20/2025 @ 5:40 pmThe first things Trump signed after being sworn in were five folders. One contained a list of some 22 Cabinet appointees. Another, 47 subcabinet appointees. A third said who would be acting in various positions. A fourth was 15 commission chairmen or members. The fifth was one that said that on any Presidential inauguration day, U.S. flags would be flown at full staff.
Trump signed one time for each folder.
Rubio was confirmed (without even a committee vote) because Democrats agreed to waive the rules by unanimous consent.
Sammy Finkelman (c2c77e) — 1/20/2025 @ 5:40 pmFauci, otoh, was pardoned for any offense against the United States he might have committed over a 10 year period. Can’t you see the difference? If not, I can’t help you since I can’t draw pictures here.
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/20/2025 @ 5:42 pmFrom the order:
Since Trump doesn’t have an Attorney General, everyone will need to wait awhile for the official paperwork. Pam Bondi’s committee vote (let alone the full Senate vote) hasn’t been scheduled yet.
Rip Murdock (57fc2b) — 1/20/2025 @ 5:43 pmThis is a step moving away from the rule of law and toward a new day where people can be relieved of their convictions, because they were on the side of the president.
What kind of step were Biden’s pardons?
Note: I am not at all happy with the Proud Boys pardons, but there are lots of bad pardons. The idea of blanket pardons for all the ex-President’s cronies and helpers is far more injurious to the Rule of Law than a bad pardon. How is Stuart Rhodes pardon worse than Marc Rich’s?
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/20/2025 @ 5:46 pmI see from Dana’s link that Stuart Rhodes (and others) got a commutation of sentence to time served, not a pardon.
Sammy Finkelman (c2c77e) — 1/20/2025 @ 5:46 pmSince Trump doesn’t have an Attorney General
There is an acting AG: James McHenry
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/20/2025 @ 5:48 pmcommutation of sentence to time served, not a pardon.
So, they are still federal felons and still seditious conspirators, with all the loss of rights that entails.
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/20/2025 @ 5:49 pmRob, except for the few who were guilty of seditious conspiracy, your fellow MAGA zealots were caught on tape.
Dana, there were only 14 commutations out of the lot, so even the worst of the worst J6 criminals are out of jail, and the rest were fully pardoned for their crimes. This is actually worse than I expected, because the violent MAGAs caught a break. This is the Trump Morality in all its glory.
Paul Montagu (7d07c9) — 1/20/2025 @ 5:56 pm@kevin@64 You haven’t noticed people trying to figure out ways to overturn oberfell?
Nic (120c94) — 1/20/2025 @ 6:00 pmFrom your original post:
Neither the “crimes or activities” were described in the pardon order, just the “events that occurred at or near the United States Capitol on January 6, 2021.”
The order is hardly specific, it’s about as obtuse as one can get. I’m sure it was deliberately written as vague as possible so that Trump wouldn’t be signing a document describing what his supporters really did on his “Day of Love.” For all the “crimes and activities” the pardon order described, it could have been jaywalking or spitting on the sidewalk.
I know you’re focused on Biden’s pardons, but the Biden and Trump pardons are separate issues. Whether one is blanket or not is irrelevant.
Rip Murdock (57fc2b) — 1/20/2025 @ 6:03 pmhttps://apnews.com/article/leonard-peltier-biden-pardons-eba525b713f2ec739b84aa4426366775
and
https://www.governor.virginia.gov/newsroom/news-releases/2025/january/name-1039284-en.html
Anyone complaining about J-6 pardons is ignoring reality. They supported a man who gives aid and comfort to actual evil.
NJRob (eb56c3) — 1/20/2025 @ 6:04 pm18, Paul: It was more of a Klingon Salute.
Harcourt Fenton Mudd (aa94a8) — 1/20/2025 @ 6:41 pmAh, the Nazi’s excusing the Nazi from acting like a Nazi. Full on Nazi salute by Elongated Muskrat too. Pardoning the brown shirts is just another confirmation.
The level of moron that thinks stupid Hitler is anything other than a stupid Hitler is a deluded Nazi, not just a member of the American Bund party.
How does it feel to be a Nazi shill?
Huh, Panama, Mexico, Greenland…Canada. Probably Panama is the first invasion, bombing runs in Mexico begin next week.
Colonel Klink (ret) (96f56a) — 1/20/2025 @ 6:43 pmGoing to be a long 4 years for some people.
NJRob (eb56c3) — 1/20/2025 @ 6:45 pmNeither the “crimes or activities” were described in the pardon order, just the “events that occurred at or near the United States Capitol on January 6, 2021.”
You are not this dense, Rip.
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/20/2025 @ 6:56 pm> Going to be a long 4 years for some people.
Including every trans person in the country.
The federal government has apparently decided that psychologically torturing queer people is the right way forward for all of us.
aphrael (dbf41f) — 1/20/2025 @ 6:56 pmI think the J6 pardon may have the effect of being a self-pardon for any criminal activity he may have been engaged in on January 6.
aphrael (dbf41f) — 1/20/2025 @ 6:57 pmClink needs to change his handle to Godwin.
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/20/2025 @ 6:58 pmI think the J6 pardon may have the effect of being a self-pardon for any criminal activity he may have been engaged in on January 6.
He was not charged with such, so what does it matter?
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/20/2025 @ 6:59 pmNote that several news organizations are conflating the birthright citizenship thing to mean “children of immigrants” not “children of illegal immigrants.” The first one has no constitutional chance, but then Trump didn’t say it. The second, well, he did, and maybe.
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/20/2025 @ 7:01 pmNeither the “crimes or activities” were described in the pardon order, just the “events that occurred at or near the United States Capitol on January 6, 2021.”
That is an “activity.” If the constitution barred blanket pardons (as it probably does in reality), then this would be allowed,a s would Carter’s draft-dodger amnesty and Johnson’s Confederate amnesty. What should not be allowed are “any federal crime committed in the last decade” type GOoJF cards.
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/20/2025 @ 7:05 pm>The first one has no constitutional chance, but then Trump didn’t say it. The second, well, he did, and maybe.
The theory under which this is constitutional is rank nonsense because it requires “subject to the jurisdiction thereof” to mean two different things at the exact same time. Unless we’re also going to say that we can’t prosecute illegal immigrants for crimes committed within our borders because they aren’t subject to our jurisdiction.
But that doesn’t matter, because all that matters now is power and rage. and until the rage burns out, nothing can be done and anyone who tries to stand in its waywill be immolated.
aphrael (dbf41f) — 1/20/2025 @ 7:10 pmNot did Trump’s pardon name the other 1,500 persons who were pardoned.
Rip Murdock (57fc2b) — 1/20/2025 @ 7:11 pmNot did Trump’s pardon name the other 1,500 persons who were pardoned.
Did I say it did, or should? Carter did not name all the draft dodgers.
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/20/2025 @ 7:14 pmI guess I got hung up on your phrase “Trump’s will name the crimes or activities……” I took you too literally; but then again I shouldn’t have expected Trump to do so. Especially after your desire to amend the Constitution to do so.
Rip Murdock (57fc2b) — 1/20/2025 @ 7:18 pmaphrael,
I am of two minds about this. I agree with your reading of 14. It would take a constitutional amendment to carve out illegals. This Supreme Court might find a way to allow an act of Congress to “enforce” the law in that particular way. But it sure as sh1t isn’t subject to an EO.
Now, should children born to a mother illegally present have birthright citizenship simply as a matter of equity?
On the one hand, people who are seriously intent on becoming Americans ought to be welcomed if possible. But it’s not possible to welcome everyone, and if we tried we’d double our population in 10 years and living conditions would crater for everyone. We can’t be the world’s lifeboat. And allowing children to become anchors has been shown to be a problem.
So, my answer is no.
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/20/2025 @ 7:24 pmWhy do you think indulging mental illness is a good thing? Are you pro-anoxeria or other mental illnesses?
NJRob (eb56c3) — 1/20/2025 @ 7:27 pmThis something we agree on-specificity in pardons is not required- whether it’s the names receiving a pardon or what the pardon is for.
Rip Murdock (57fc2b) — 1/20/2025 @ 7:30 pmUnfortunately no one would have standing to challenge any type pardon.
Rip Murdock (57fc2b) — 1/20/2025 @ 7:34 pm> Why do you think indulging mental illness is a good thing? Are you pro-anoxeria or other mental illnesses?
I don’t think that being transgender is a mental illness, and I think that your insistence that trans individuals are mentally ill is nothing more than a schoolyard bully attack against people you don’t like and have no empathy for.
aphrael (dbf41f) — 1/20/2025 @ 7:52 pmHow long before you go back to calling gay people mentally ill, too, NJRob?
aphrael (dbf41f) — 1/20/2025 @ 7:53 pm> Now, should children born to a mother illegally present have birthright citizenship simply as a matter of equity?
Once the door is open to denying citizenship to *any* person born in the country, there will be no secure place to draw the line, and the line will move with the whims of the day.
Half a century from now *none* of our citizenships are secure if this barrier is breached.
aphrael (dbf41f) — 1/20/2025 @ 7:55 pmGood thing this site has an archives feature. A lot of these comments aren’t going to age well when the hoped for apocalypse doesn’t happen.
lloyd (3e3bf1) — 1/20/2025 @ 8:11 pmMaybe Trump has a Sharpie that will tell everyone that Spain is a BRICS nation. Sigh. We elected ignorant.
Paul Montagu (7d07c9) — 1/20/2025 @ 8:14 pm“We have been pardoned today not for breaking the law, but for upholding it.”
Joint statement by Liz Cheney and 2016 election denier Bennie Thompson.
Some time ago, someone here was pretty confident Liz would refuse a pardon. Maybe I’ll search the archives.
lloyd (54553b) — 1/20/2025 @ 8:20 pmLiz Cheney said she would refuse a pardon.
Paul Montagu (7d07c9) — 1/20/2025 @ 9:06 pmOh, she had a change of heart.
Peter Navarro and Steve Bannon weren’t afraid of going to prison. Liz, who put them there, is afraid of her own fake bravado.
lloyd (54553b) — 1/20/2025 @ 9:48 pmThe pardon power is fine. It shouldn’t be changed or curtailed. It should be merely tweaked:
In a presentational election year, no pardons allowed starting October 1 through the next 111 days. (That takes it through Jan 20.)
The president should be allowed to pardon whoever for whatever reason. He just shouldn’t be able to hide it from voters. Let the voters decide these things. Even a lame duck president would have to weigh the political cost to his party.
lloyd (54553b) — 1/20/2025 @ 9:57 pmI don’t think that being transgender is a mental illness
I certainly would not want to make a case either way for “ALL.” I guarantee you that some are mentally ill, and some are not.
What I do think is whack-a-doodle is biological men wanting to compete in women’s sports. It makes a travesty of the idea of competition and ignores the very basis for the division of sports by sex. It’s pathetic and contemptible.
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/20/2025 @ 10:22 pmLiz Cheney said she would refuse a pardon.
One for the strangest things is that there are allegedly rules that prevent her refusal. This, a group blanket pardon, which has ZERO history before yesterday, has rules. Who knew?
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/20/2025 @ 10:25 pmFrom what I’m reading, Trump has ordered the passport service and Social Security to not provide documents to US-born persons whose parents are illegals. If true, this would effectively strip persons, some of whom are adults, of their previous US citizenship. The first district court that hears this will enjoin.
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/20/2025 @ 10:37 pmAllahNick…
I hope Catoggio is wrong, but we’ve seen this movie before.
Paul Montagu (7d07c9) — 1/20/2025 @ 10:41 pmThat’s pretty funny, lloyd, casting a scuzbag like Navarro and criminal like Bannon as heroes.
Paul Montagu (7d07c9) — 1/20/2025 @ 10:43 pmDown is up.
More Catoggio…
Any bad actor who wants to curry favor with Trump just needs to buy into Sh-tcoin. This is graft on a whole new level.
Paul Montagu (7d07c9) — 1/20/2025 @ 10:47 pmI guess in one sense these pardons are the decent thing to do. Trump pushed his Big Lie, and people got in trouble for believing it.
Trump should have been punished by the voters for pushing the Big Lie, but he wasn’t.
norcal (a72384) — 1/20/2025 @ 11:02 pmHas trump arrested anyone here yet? For NJRob, Lloyd, Budah and the rest of the magas here. You got your chance if trump blows it you know what happens next as the corporate establishment liberal democrats and their donor class masters wont be able to run interference against the left.
asset (6ecfa7) — 1/21/2025 @ 12:11 amSo it’s really all about you. Got it.
NJRob (eb56c3) — 1/21/2025 @ 5:01 amJon Stewart, with a nod to Musk at the mid-7:00 mark. Also noted (at the 9:40 mark) is Trump not placing his hand on the Bible (and I’m guessing it was one of those Trump Bibles at $60 a pop) but it didn’t look like fingers on his left hand were crossed while swearing the Oath.
Paul Montagu (7d07c9) — 1/21/2025 @ 5:40 am@85
He can’t… this is all he has left.
whembly (477db6) — 1/21/2025 @ 6:25 amAt least Trump didn’t do these pardons the ch!chensh!t way… he did this at the beginning of his term and not 5 minutes before his term ends.
whembly (477db6) — 1/21/2025 @ 6:32 amA brave thing would have been if he had issued the pardons in January 2021. What is he risking now, safely behind the skirts of the electorate and the Presidential immunity decision and Constitutionally limited from another term?
nk (7ec855) — 1/21/2025 @ 7:14 amIt is interesting to note the choice of backdrop in the rotunda — Trump was flanked by statues of Grant and Lincoln, two of the most radical Republicans, both of whom used federal troops to enforce their will.
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/21/2025 @ 7:17 amA brave thing would have been if he had issued the pardons in January 2021
Indeed. It might have got him convicted in that impeachment trial though, being the only one left to punish.
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/21/2025 @ 7:18 amLike aphrael pointed out above, even these pardons are a haystack hiding the needle that is his own self-pardon by virtue of the broad language used.
Not that there is much likelihood that the next administration will reinstate his case four years from now, but who knows what keeps him awake nights?
nk (7ec855) — 1/21/2025 @ 7:25 amI hope Catoggio is wrong, but we’ve seen this movie before.
He may be correct, but what of it? The American people could have chosen Harris. They didn’t. The real questions is, with such a grotesque offering by the GOP, the Democrats could not manage a counter.
The answer of course is that their last four years had been grotesque on stilts, with massive gaslighting of the public to try to hide it, starting with Biden himself and continuing to his opening up the borders and the treasury to predictable, if not orchestrated, gaming.
Perhaps, for a change, Cattagio could write about how all that Covid-recovery money was paid to fraudsters and how magic words got millions of “refugees” into the country. Because it wasn’t a surprise to all those grotesque Trump supporters. How did Nick miss it?
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/21/2025 @ 7:26 amLike aphrael pointed out above, even these pardons are a haystack hiding the needle that is his own self-pardon by virtue of the broad language used.
As *I* pointed out, Trump has never been accused of a J6 crime, so why would he NEED a pardon that was limited to that day and those acts? If that was what he wanted, he could have widened it like Biden did, so to cover the entire 2020 election.
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/21/2025 @ 7:28 am@123
But Kev!
You see?!?! It was an insurrection!
Why can’t you see what I’m seeing?!?!
–Anti-Trumpers… possibly.
whembly (477db6) — 1/21/2025 @ 7:41 amUS withdraws from WHO.
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/21/2025 @ 7:41 amYou see?!?! It was an insurrection!
It was an insurrection, but Trump was never charged.
The DC case involved a pattern of electoral fraud and any reference there to the J6 activities was only to buttress the overall fraud case.
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/21/2025 @ 7:43 amIn other inauguration news, if you move your hand from your chest to fully extend your arm, you are a Nazi. True fact!
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/21/2025 @ 7:46 amQuiz: Who said this? And when?
lloyd (c952b9) — 1/21/2025 @ 7:48 am(iv) The indictment also contains various allegations regarding Trump’s conduct in connection with the events of January 6 itself. The alleged conduct largely consists of Trump’s communications in the form of Tweets and a public address.
nk (7ca270) — 1/21/2025 @ 7:49 amSyllabus, p. 6, Trump v. United States, Slip Opinion.
Syllabus, p. 6, Trump v. United States, Slip Opinion.
Worth saying twice.
nk (7ca270) — 1/21/2025 @ 7:51 amI cede you your victory but not your history.
nk (7ca270) — 1/21/2025 @ 7:53 am@126
It was a protest that a small segment of the crowd rioted.
The idea that it was an “insurrection” is farcical and anyone perpetuating it is only do so out of partisan animus without any sense of good-faith interpretation of what constitutes a true insurrection.
You’d also have to convince yourself that Jack Smith didn’t charge Trump with insurrection because “he didn’t want to”, which flies in the face of how truly overzealous the Special Counsel was.
whembly (477db6) — 1/21/2025 @ 7:59 amyes, nk, but those are not crimes charged, just backup for the fraud charges. As in “SEE! He was still doing it!!!” A pardon for J6 events would not help him. Of course, he doesn’t need help given the Supreme Court’s immunity ruling.
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/21/2025 @ 8:12 amYou’d also have to convince yourself that Jack Smith didn’t charge Trump with insurrection
No, because Trump did not participate in the activities, and his comments were arguably ambiguous. Now, I would have been satisfied with an insurrection charge, but I would have been allowed nowhere near the jury.
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/21/2025 @ 8:14 amI cede you your victory but not your history.
I cede your reference, but not its relevance.
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/21/2025 @ 8:15 amTrump renames America to “Greater America” to honor his MAGA promise.
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/21/2025 @ 8:29 amOK, maybe I’m joking.
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/21/2025 @ 8:29 amHere’s the link to the entire opinion. https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/23pdf/23-939_e2pg.pdf
nk (5dba55) — 1/21/2025 @ 8:38 amYou want pages 28-30.
#136 In Robert L. Forward’s Rocheworld, Quebec has broken away from Canada, and the remaining Canadian provinces have joined the US, forming the “Greater United States of America”.
I enjoyed an earlier version, The Flight of the Dragonfly, enough so I bought the full version, but have not gotten around to reading it. (The publication history is, shall we say, interesting.) But then I like “hard” science fiction more than most readers.
Jim Miller (5e3734) — 1/21/2025 @ 8:54 amNo, I get that nk, but I don’t see any allegation that any of his Jan 6th actions were criminal, just that they fit within a pattern of fraud. But you’ve obviously done a lot more work on this than I care to. Was there a specific charge regarding Trump’s actions at the Insurrection? If not, then I don’t see how that would be affected by yesterday’s pardon/amnesty. And, as you’ve pointed out, the Supremes have pretty much immunized him anyway.
Now, Donald Trump Jr may have benefited.
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/21/2025 @ 9:05 amIn Robert L. Forward’s Rocheworld, Quebec has broken away from Canada, and the remaining Canadian provinces have joined the US, forming the “Greater United States of America”.
There are a number of SF stories with that kind of backdrop. And I think Forward is right that any anschluss of that sort would also have Quebec going its own (or rejoining France).
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/21/2025 @ 9:06 amHarry Turtledove has an alt history series where the US, after the Confederacy won its independence, eventually annexes Canada by force.
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/21/2025 @ 9:09 amThere’s also a 2004 alternate history documentary (complete with faux commercials) C.S.A.: The Confederate States of America (2017):
The CSA builds the Cotton Curtain to prevent slaves from fleeing into Canada. It’s available on Youtube and other platforms.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/21/2025 @ 9:26 amThe correct date is 2004.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/21/2025 @ 9:26 amLink?
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/21/2025 @ 9:31 amTrump’s redefinition of citizenship also includes children of immigrants who are lawfully, but temporarily, located in the US (Section 2(2).
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/21/2025 @ 9:44 amLink?
Yeah, sorry. Too much, too fast and changing a lot.
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/21/2025 @ 9:49 amThe electoral interference indictment has been dismissed, so what it says is irrelevant; and it is highly unlikely Trump will be reindicted four years from now. At the end of his term he will be an elderly man (82) with possible memory problems, and would be a more sympathetic figure in front of jury.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/21/2025 @ 9:52 amSo what are the rules for a group pardon?
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/21/2025 @ 9:52 amTrump’s redefinition of citizenship also includes children of immigrants who are lawfully, but temporarily, located in the US (Section 2(2).
Yes. Earlier reports had either said all non-citizens or just illegals. Now they say it included children born to people on guest visas (tourist, student, etc). If the Constitution said “All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/21/2025 @ 9:53 amsubject to the jurisdiction thereofowing allegiance thereto” he’d have a point. But it doesn’t.This misreading of the 14th Amendment is a reaction to a common way to gaming the system that has gutted attempts to enforce immigration laws. Before Biden’s corruption of the system, the “anchor baby” thing, where we were reluctant to expel parents of minor US citizens, was the main exploitation allowing illegals to remain.
Trump is attempting to defeat this by brute force. It won’t work, although he may raise the issue to the point if figures in the midterms.
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/21/2025 @ 10:02 amSo what are the rules for a group pardon?
The argument I read was that, since it was of a group, individuals could not choose whether to accept or not. It struck me as odd, not only for there being no previous occasion for a rule, but also a self-serving excuse for those who wanted to have it both ways. I guess the Carter-era draft amnesty might have some precedents, but I’d be surprised if someone actually demanded to be prosecuted for something they were actually guilty of.
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/21/2025 @ 10:05 amRIP Garth Hudson, keyboardist and last surviving member of the Band (87):
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/21/2025 @ 10:36 am@151
Understand that the intent of the EO *is* to take this up to SCOTUS.
The “Under the jurisdiction of” is the crux of it all.
Ordinary understanding at the passage of the 14th Amendment meant what “allegiance” does the alien hold? It’s a wordsmith term of art. Not whether the state/federal government’s laws applies to the alien (ie, definition of jurisdiction today). Similar how the 2nd amendment is commonly misinterpreted.
IF folks advocating that “jurisdiction” means, “if you’re here, our laws applies”… it’s a redundant rationale because OF COURSE if you’re in another country, that country’s laws applies to you. I seriously doubt it needed to be said in that manner. So, to me, it’s a term of art of the times that, again, ‘Under the jurisdiction of’ really means what loyalties the illegal alien holds (ie, where they come from).
The whole rationale of the “the jurisdiction of” was born out excluding the native Indians, diplomats and invaders from the 14th. Not an illegal alien in today’s sense. (although, an argument could be made that illegal aliens are ‘invaders’)
The question wasn’t even considered at the time of the 14th Amendment as to how to handle offspring’s of illegal aliens in the country. So, it’s a situation that isn’t as clear cut as it should, even when there’s multiple court cases *touching* the peripheral question at hand.
I don’t think it’s clear that the Executive can do this by EO.
I do think Congress has a much stronger case to pass legislation to explicitly deny birthright citizenships to illegal aliens.
If all that happens to this EO, is for SCOTUS to strike it down and signaling that’s its a political question for Congress to answer, then this EO exercise is worth it.
whembly (477db6) — 1/21/2025 @ 10:55 am151, Kevin: whatever the outcome, we’ll get well publicized court decisions.
And if a present day Justice Brennan like Sotomayor decides–that coming across the border –on land, or by air as a birth tourist, –when one is 9 mos along makes the kid a US citizen, fine: Then we have it out in the open.
If people w/o any past allegiance to the US can gain citizenship and a niagra of benefits for their kid with no tax payment history, no service, no loyalty, nothing bur a well-times airline ticket, –then we’ll have an issue ripe for adjustment by the appropriate method.
Trump is at least setting it up for the People to decide, and that’s more than sobbing John Boehner, Clipboard Paul Ryan or the exerable Dennis Hastert ever did.
Harcourt Fenton Mudd (0c349e) — 1/21/2025 @ 10:56 amPaul Montagu (7d07c9) — 1/20/2025 @ 5:56 pm
There might be an additional 6 who were not released or pardoned, who cases are under review, and those with cases pending are still in jail.
https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/national/capitol-riots/jan-6-capitol-riot-defendants-dc-jail-pardons/65-9cba026d-ce9a-4c2e-ae0f-fe5a9b92c581
Sammy Finkelman (baadeb) — 1/21/2025 @ 11:06 amAs I said, if the 14th read “and owing allegiance thereto”, what Trump is doing would be perfectly OK. But it doesn’t say that. Maybe it should, but it doesn’t, and I don’t see how the Court can make it read that.
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/21/2025 @ 11:06 amNote that all of the violent offenders — all of them — have spent a year or more in prison already. This isn’t “scot-free.” Yeah, probably not enough, but it’s not like it was a surprise.
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/21/2025 @ 11:12 amIf you have a link, I would like to read it-sounds interesting. The Supreme Court has allowed defendants to waive a pardon. There are arguments that blanket pardons are unconstitutional; “to be valid, the pardon must list the specific crimes insulated from criminal liability.” However, there are also arguments that a specificity requirement is not required by the Constitution: “there is no evidence in the record of the Constitutional Convention or subsequent ratifying debates that anyone thought the grant of pardon power was qualified by a specificity limit.”
Unfortunately, these arguments are confined to academia, as n one would have standing to challenge a presidential pardon.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/21/2025 @ 11:16 amNone of the J6ers pardoned/commuted had this ordeal totally “wiped clean”.
They still suffered pre-detention, trials, monetary expenses, loss of jobs, etc…
So, “scott-free” isn’t the appropriate vernacular here. That’s what Biden did to his family when he pre-emptedly pardoned them.
whembly (477db6) — 1/21/2025 @ 11:19 am@157
According to the writers of the 14th, ‘and owing allegiance thereto’ is the same term of art as ‘Under the jurisdiction of’. So there’s no need for the writers to repeat themselves in a different manner.
whembly (477db6) — 1/21/2025 @ 11:23 amKevin, under your interpretation how were Indians not “subject to the jurisdiction thereof?” Why were Indian citizenship acts necessary?
BuDuh (4214e4) — 1/21/2025 @ 11:23 amnk (7ec855) — 1/21/2025 @ 7:25 am
It would be in his interest to release the Jack Smith report, because nobody who investigated this, assigned any blame to Trump for planning the storming of he Capitol. Indeed they came very close to proving the opposite, especially by the fact that it threatened to uin his real plans for January 6, and he knew it, and by the fact that his real plans included going to the Capitol himself to address the crowd and to lobby members of Congress in person. Testified to by Cassidy Hutchinson who wasn’t pardoned by either president.
But they (partisan investigators) even though they could not pin any responsibility for the storming of the Capitol on Trump, still wanted to blame Trump for “inciting” it, and so were not interested in determining the truth as to who planned it.
Some people were convicted of planning it in advance. The trouble is some people in Trump’s circle (still) were probably co-conspirators. Steve Bannon maybe?
Biden’s pardons involved creating a haystack to surround a needle (his family)
Sammy Finkelman (baadeb) — 1/21/2025 @ 11:34 am* threatened to ruin his real plans for January 6,
The (doomed to failure) vote in Congress to reject Electoral votes, which the Jan 6 committee alluded to as little as possible.
Sammy Finkelman (baadeb) — 1/21/2025 @ 11:36 am162. The 14th amendment specifically excluded Indians not taxed.
Sammy Finkelman (baadeb) — 1/21/2025 @ 11:38 amExcluded them from what, Sammy?
Here is a resource: https://constitution.congress.gov/constitution/amendment-14/
BuDuh (2e2fb6) — 1/21/2025 @ 11:53 amBuDuh (2e2fb6) — 1/21/2025 @ 11:53 am
Automatic citizenship by birth. Well it says from being counted for representation in Congress, but presumably these are most of the people not subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, unless it was a mistake not to initially recognize Indians living outside areas governed by the United States as citizens.
https://constitution.congress.gov/constitution/amendment-14
Why are they not to be counted? As for why the language in Section 1 is broader than Indians not taxed that is because you have some other possibilities.
Sammy Finkelman (e4ef09) — 1/21/2025 @ 12:23 pmThere are not any anchor babies from a legal point of view (hardship exceptions from removal do not include children) but there are anchor spouses.
Sammy Finkelman (e4ef09) — 1/21/2025 @ 12:26 pmWill you connect those dots a little more clearly for me, Sammy? It sounds like you are saying they are subject to the laws of the United States, as part of Section 2, but they are not considered citizens in Section 1 because they are not subject to the laws of the United States.
Would substituting “allegiance” fix this conflict?
BuDuh (2e2fb6) — 1/21/2025 @ 12:28 pmI’m going to wait for Kevin to jump in before I post again.
BuDuh (2e2fb6) — 1/21/2025 @ 12:30 pmNative Americans weren’t fully citizens of the United States until the Indian Citizenship Act of 1924, their tribes were considered “separate sovereigns” and not subject to the “jurisdiction” of the United States:
Footnotes omitted.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/21/2025 @ 12:38 pmThanks for the assist, Rip.
BuDuh (2e2fb6) — 1/21/2025 @ 12:41 pmhis web page contains an incomplete list of the executive orders President Trump signed on Day 1 of his administration:
https://nypost.com/2025/01/21/us-news/two-jan-6-prisoners-andrew-and-matthew-valentin-released-from-dc-jail-after-trumps-day-1-pardon
Page down or search for “wasted no time”
This was printed on the right side of page 11 of today’s New York Post.
Some didn’t make any headlines, like withdrawing from the WHO.
Tik-Tok, interestingly, got only a 75 day extension and it’s apparently not the same thing the law provided for.
It seems like Biden already had signed several ” immigration orders from the Biden administration, including one that narrows deportation priorities to people who commit serious crimes, are deemed national security threats or were stopped at the border” This was reversed.
Sammy Finkelman (e4ef09) — 1/21/2025 @ 1:13 pmBuDuh (2e2fb6) — 1/21/2025 @ 12:28 pm
Their numbers could be estimated or possibly were known or maybe they were counted in the Census. The 14th amendment provided for a reduction in the number of members of Congress a state got
This was never enforced, and was superseded by the 15th amendment which was de facto violated. Till then the franchise could be legally limited in a state to white people or people who had never been slaves..
Sammy Finkelman (e4ef09) — 1/21/2025 @ 1:21 pmNews item: 18 states sue the Trump Administration over the “birthright citizenship” Executive Order.
More:
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/21/2025 @ 1:27 pmWhen 77,302,580 voters tell you that bugfukkery works, who cares what 18 State Attorneys General have to say?
nk (57524b) — 1/21/2025 @ 2:55 pmKevin, under your interpretation how were Indians not “subject to the jurisdiction thereof?” Why were Indian citizenship acts necessary?
The Indian nations were officially autonomous, even on the Rez. The reality may have been different, but both the government and the tribes wanted to maintain the fiction.
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/21/2025 @ 2:59 pmI’m going to wait for Kevin to jump in before I post again.
Note that my reading of the 14th is the traditional one: words matter and the words they used only exclude persons who are not strictly subject to US jurisdiction. Tribal members on the Rez, diplomats, possibly people in international transit lounges. But immigrants, regardless of their status, are subject to US law. If they don’t believe that, they should try driving a 100MPH through a school zone.
Trump’s (not my) interpretation seems to hinge on whether the parents owe allegiance to the USA. Persons admitted as immigrants have agreed to do so, tourists and people here without leave, not so much.
If Trump’s version prevailed, and it wasn’t retroactive, I could live with that. But I don’t think that’s what the Constitution says, and if people don’t like that I offer them Article V.
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/21/2025 @ 3:10 pmIf a non-taxed Indian went off the reservation and had their baby in downtown LA, would that baby have had Birthright citizenship?
I have no idea but some of the language in the Indian citizenship acts make me believe the answer is no.
I don’t think the Indian Nations ever had 100% sovereignty when it came to certain laws applicable to the geographical US. Under the notion the “subject to the jurisdiction thereof” referenced abiding by US laws, the Indians were always covered under section 1 of the 14th.
Where they did have clear sovereignty was with their own citizenship within the tribe. That is the real conflict. This is why, to me, the jurisdiction component meant allegiance.
We will see.
BuDuh (4214e4) — 1/21/2025 @ 3:16 pmCatoggio often sustains Patterico’s judgment that he is the best writer on the internet.
https://thedispatch.com/newsletter/boilingfrogs/american-grotesque/
norcal (a72384) — 1/21/2025 @ 3:20 pmIf a non-taxed Indian went off the reservation and had their baby in downtown LA, would that baby have had Birthright citizenship?
Well, things have changed so most of that is obsolete. I think that all Native Americans are now citizens, and taxed, wherever they are. Native Americans vote in federal elections at least. Not sure if they are considered residents of a state if they are on the Rez.
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/21/2025 @ 3:24 pmdoing favors for your relatives is less ominous than doing favors for people willing to commit political violence in your name.
You see, I don’t see that as the difference. Biden’s pardons were GOoJF cards for ANY act they MIGHT have committed. These are a first in US history, and lawless in the extreme.
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/21/2025 @ 3:26 pmBiden’s pardons were GOoJF cards for ANY act they MIGHT have committed. These are a first in US history, and lawless in the extreme.
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/21/2025 @ 3:26 pm
Trump’s malignancy is also a first in history. Maybe Biden took Trump seriously about putting Cheney and his other enemies in jail.
norcal (a72384) — 1/21/2025 @ 3:33 pmdoing favors for your relatives is less ominous than doing favors for people willing to commit political violence in your name.
Also, some of those pardons were for people who directed the actions of government. Considering that the entire MAGA movement is an, um, insurrection against the administrative state, immunizing leading agents of said state is ominous in itself.
Let’s say that Trump’s DOJ takes actions against people they claim aren’t citizens any more, causing irreparable harm, then Trump gives DOJ officials their own blanket pardons. Do you see it now?
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/21/2025 @ 3:35 pmTrump’s malignancy is also a first in history.
And here we have it. The, um, Trump card. Only bad presidents should be limited by the law, good presidents should have more latitude. And this we call The Rule of Law!
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/21/2025 @ 3:36 pmSo it is possible that the running theory of the breadth of Wonk Kim Ark is also obsolete.
BuDuh (4214e4) — 1/21/2025 @ 3:36 pmMaybe Biden took Trump seriously about putting Cheney and his other enemies in jail.
Nothing the J6 committee did was actionable. Even if the entire process was politically corrupt, they are protected by the Constitution already. Even more so than the President is.
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/21/2025 @ 3:38 pmSo it is possible that the running theory of the breadth of Wonk Kim Ark is also obsolete.
Mr Ark was not an Indian.
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/21/2025 @ 3:39 pmIndian tribes were treated like foreign governments when the US government and the tribes negotiated treaties:
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/21/2025 @ 3:51 pmSo what do we about Roman Catholics, regardless of where they or their parents were born, who not only obey but tithe to the Vatican, a foreign sovereign state?
nk (57524b) — 1/21/2025 @ 3:53 pmCharles Curtis had something to do with extending citizenship to Indian tribes.
Jim Miller (771bd3) — 1/21/2025 @ 3:57 pmFinding something better than Wikipedia is tough and I don’t have the time to dig too deep.
In 1871, a few years after The 14th was ratified, congress passed one of the Indian Appropriation Acts.
They were clearly subject to US Law in 1871. Arguably they were subject to US Law earlier, but this 1871 language and its close proximity to the passing of the 14th makes for a tidy argument that simple obedience to US Law was already covered in The Nations at that time.
They were not automatically given citizenship because of a lack of allegiance. Similar to a visiting pregnant foreigner’s cargo.
Here is the government’s reference to the code noting that it stems from 1871: https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/USCODE-2012-title25/html/USCODE-2012-title25-chap3-subchapI-sec71.htm
Cheers
BuDuh (4214e4) — 1/21/2025 @ 3:57 pmGood grief.
BuDuh (4214e4) — 1/21/2025 @ 3:58 pmMore allegations against Pete Hegseth (which he denies):
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/21/2025 @ 4:24 pmOuch!
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/21/2025 @ 4:39 pmMay I suggest something that will help clarify the discussion on birthright citizenship?
The disputants here should answer these two questions:
1. Is birthright citizenship guaranteed by the US Constitution?
2. Should it be guaranteed by the US Constitution?
FWIW, most nations in North and South America have birthright citizenship; most nations in the old world do not.
(For the record, my answers are yes and yes. If I understand the Loser correctly, his answers are no and no.)
Jim Miller (771bd3) — 1/21/2025 @ 4:40 pm1.yes, for some.
2.yes
tribalism and division were in your rear view mirror.
BuDuh (2e2fb6) — 1/21/2025 @ 4:56 pmLast line should have started with “I thought…”
BuDuh (2e2fb6) — 1/21/2025 @ 4:57 pmMaybe. But if he thought Trump had the power to put them in jail, regardless of the law, a pardon isn’t going to help them. What Biden likely took seriously was their legal exposure to a partisan DOJ, something he is intimately familiar with.
As for Cheney and the J6 committee, having already put their enemies in jail it’s not a question of taking them seriously or not.
lloyd (76e94d) — 1/21/2025 @ 6:59 pmLOL!
Rip Murdock (57fc2b) — 1/21/2025 @ 7:55 pmIf I start at a shorter portion of your LOL link, how do I navigate to the missing page?
Start here, Rip: https://www.whitehouse.gov/about-the-white-house/
BuDuh (2e2fb6) — 1/21/2025 @ 8:06 pmRip’s on a non-story bender.
lloyd (e3319a) — 1/21/2025 @ 8:08 pmLloyd, would you test this for me?
Here is the archived Trump 45 page:
https://trumpwhitehouse.archives.gov/about-the-white-house/the-constitution/
It opens fine for me. If I go to the address back out “Trump” and type in “Biden” I get the archived Biden page. If I then back out “Biden” and put “Trump” back in, it takes me to a 404 error. Weird.
Maybe it is my device. I tried it a few times.
BuDuh (2e2fb6) — 1/21/2025 @ 8:20 pmHey, guess what, stupid Hitler is evil. And if you voted for evil, guess what that makes you? That is all.
bu..bu..bu..whatabout squirrel.
Colonel Klink (ret) (96f56a) — 1/21/2025 @ 8:23 pm194: Rip M: Sober people who never got drunk in a strip club, bungled our war in Vietnam, elevated Pronouns over hypersonic missiles, left $8 billion in rifles, helicopters and other equipment in Afghanistan, lost control of the border, and cancelled the F-22.
But I am supposed to be worried about some guy who someone named Danielle says did pass out in a strip club?
You remember what Lincoln said about Grant and his drinking? “Find me the brand he drinks and send a case to my other generals.”
Harcourt Fenton Mudd (66ed28) — 1/21/2025 @ 8:32 pm@HFM@206 I feel like Nixon might’ve gotten drunk in a strip club. Pronouns are free. I have them, you have them, everyone has them at no cost. I’m sorry you disapprove of the way some people use theirs, but they are free and do not require anyone to make a choice over pronouns vs. missiles. The border is the same mess it’s been my entire lifetime, so Nixon again? I really do feel he might’ve gotten drunk at least a couple of times in a strip club. Have you looked into why the F-22 got cancelled?
Hegseth had an anemic military career. He is no Ulysses S. Grant.
Nic (120c94) — 1/21/2025 @ 9:17 pmCoast guards first female commandant Adm. Linda Fagan fired by trump. The purge begins! Democrats should demand birthright citizenship for all trumpsters should be removed starting with republicans in congress and supreme court when they regain power.
asset (2aacf5) — 1/21/2025 @ 9:45 pmSo what do we about Roman Catholics, regardless of where they or their parents were born, who not only obey but tithe to the Vatican, a foreign sovereign state?
Yeah, American Catholics are good at obeying the Vatican. No abortions, only 3 shakes at the urinal, etc.
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/21/2025 @ 11:46 pm1. Is birthright citizenship guaranteed by the US Constitution?
Nearly absolutely. Diplomats are probably the largest exempted group as they are NOT subject to US jurisdiction.
2. Should it be guaranteed by the US Constitution?
To the same degree? Not sure. I see no reason why it should cover non-immigrants, for example. Since most countries also have descent-citizenship, it creates dual-citizenship in many cases. People who intend on returning home want their child to be a citizen of the home country. Allowing US citizenship to be acquired this way does the USA no good, and sometimes harm due to gaming.
The real question is for extralegal immigrants who would normally be returned home when found. The degree that this is a meaningful issue is the degree to which our immigration enforcement doesn’t work. It is unreasonable to uproot child born and raised here later in life. But at the age of two or three it’s not so terrible.
Trump’s suggested process, which would affect some 40 year-olds, is terrible, no good and awful. Also unconstitution as we see above in 1).
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/21/2025 @ 11:58 pmHegseth had an anemic military career. He is no Ulysses S. Grant.
I see no point in Hegseth. My question would be “Why? In a nation of 300 million, can’t you do better?”
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/21/2025 @ 11:59 pmLeonard Peltier sentence commuted. So biden did some good in the end. He was convicted because he refused to testify against the actual killers.
asset (2aacf5) — 1/22/2025 @ 12:00 amMy reaction with RFK Jr would be slightly different “In a nation of 300 million, it’s unlikely you could do worse”
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/22/2025 @ 12:00 amEven the WSJ…
These weren’t “all star chamber show trials”. These traitors were caught on tape.
Paul Montagu (7d07c9) — 1/22/2025 @ 4:05 amasset, Biden’s pardon of Peltier was in direct contradiction of his FBI Director…
Biden cemented his place in history that, for all their conduct in their final 70 days, the 46th president is 2nd worst.
Paul Montagu (7d07c9) — 1/22/2025 @ 4:31 amhttps://pjmedia.com/catherinesalgado/2025/01/21/exclusive-fbi-whistleblower-who-exposed-j6-weaponization-speaks-out-on-pardons-n4936217
The weaponization of the DOJ against the American people must be punished.
NJRob (eb56c3) — 1/22/2025 @ 5:13 am–Donald J. Trump, hypocrite and horrible human being, January 7th, 2021
Paul Montagu (7d07c9) — 1/22/2025 @ 5:23 amSteve Friend is one of those MAGA traitors, putting his allegiance to Trump above his country.
Paul Montagu (7d07c9) — 1/22/2025 @ 5:34 am@217 A standard for violent protesters was set before Jan6, and the punishment of violent Jan6 protesters easily exceeded that standard, even with Trump’s pardons. Just one of many examples:
Portland Antifa rioter charged with assaulting police has case dismissed after 30 hours community service
What we’re seeing is just the same partisan, hypocritical outrage we’ve always seen.
lloyd (e3319a) — 1/22/2025 @ 6:19 amSerbia is the next country where Trump will have a financial conflict of interest while president. At least the country is a NATO member, a partly free democracy and not strategically consequential.
Kushner’s comment that he “talked with several brands” rings a bit hollow.
Paul Montagu (7d07c9) — 1/22/2025 @ 6:31 amThen how did Biden expel the Russian diplomats?
BuDuh (2e2fb6) — 1/22/2025 @ 7:05 am@220 Paul, just change the names to “Biden” and “Hunter” and these magically become baseless allegations without evidence.
lloyd (95a8a8) — 1/22/2025 @ 7:06 amSerbia is not a NATO country. It acknowledges two allies: “God and the Greeks.” No joke.
nk (57524b) — 1/22/2025 @ 7:29 amDiplomats aren’t subject to US laws (meaning they cannot be tried in US courts for ordinary crimes), but are subject to the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations.
Rip Murdock (57fc2b) — 1/22/2025 @ 7:31 amSo that is the jurisdiction distinction the framers of the 14th meant when they wrote the amendment?
Wow! So simple.
BuDuh (2e2fb6) — 1/22/2025 @ 7:33 amI wonder if Trump already dumped the MLK bust in the trash. Like last time.
Good times.
lloyd (95a8a8) — 1/22/2025 @ 7:40 amJustice like the molotov cocktail lawyers who got 18 months and 12 months respectively?
How much time was served?
NJRob (61c1ce) — 1/22/2025 @ 7:41 am14th Amendment clearly didn’t mean anchor babies or tourist babies. Those changing the meaning of the words are no different than those lying about the “general welfare” clause or the 2nd Amendment not meaning the people of the United States.
NJRob (61c1ce) — 1/22/2025 @ 7:43 amHistorical enemies of the FBI:
— Bank robbers
— Sex traffickers (Mann Act)
— Kidnappers (Lindberg Law)
— Nazi saboteurs
— Spies
— Communists
— Organized crime
— KKK (Civil Rights Act)
— Terrorists
Not good company, MAGA.
nk (57524b) — 1/22/2025 @ 8:11 am@228
Correct.
https://www.heritage.org/immigration/commentary/birthright-citizenship-fundamental-misunderstanding-the-14th-amendment
Advocates of granting birthright citizenship to anyone born in the United States
In the Slaughter-House Cases, 83 U.S. 36 (1872), the court ruled:
This was further confirmed by the Court in 1884 (in Elk v. Wilkins, 112 U.S. 94) when the Court stated that the idea of birthright citizenship did not apply to Native American tribes which were nonetheless within the borders of the United States:
“[The Fourteenth Amendment] contemplates two sources of citizenship, and two sources only: birth and naturalization. The persons declared to be citizens are ‘all persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof.’ The evident meaning of these last words is, not merely subject in some respect or degree to the jurisdiction of the United States, but completely subject to their political jurisdiction, and owing them direct and immediate allegiance. And the words relate to the time of birth in the one case, as they do to the time of naturalization in the other. Persons not thus subject to the jurisdiction of the United States at the time of birth cannot become so afterwards, except by being naturalized, either individually, as by proceedings under the naturalization acts; or collectively, as by the force of a treaty by which foreign territory is acquired. Indians born within the territorial limits of the United States, members of, and owing immediate allegiance to, one of the Indian tribes (an alien though dependent power,) although in a geographical sense born in the United States, are no more ‘born in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof,’ within the meaning of the first section of the Fourteenth Amendment, than the children of subjects of any foreign government born within the domain of that government, or the children born within the United States, of ambassadors or other public ministers of foreign nations.”
In short, the court recognized that the tribal lands were within the legal jurisdiction of the United States, but this did not mean that everyone born within those borders was automatically granted citizenship. Those tribal members believed to be subjects of “foreign” tribal governments were therefore not “subject to the jurisdiction” of the United States in a way that conferred automatic citizenship.
Congress further reinforced the court’s interpretation by adopting new legislation granting citizenship to all tribal members in 1924. Had the Fourteenth Amendment really granted automatic citizenship to everyone born within the borders of the United States, no such legislation would have been necessary.
whembly (ca6c2a) — 1/22/2025 @ 8:16 amThere’s an interesting thing there, the words are written and the meaning is obvious…like the 2nd amendment.
But, when your evil, and you lie about everything…
Colonel Klink (ret) (96f56a) — 1/22/2025 @ 8:23 am@231
Apparently not to you.
whembly (ca6c2a) — 1/22/2025 @ 8:30 amhttps://pjmedia.com/catherinesalgado/2025/01/21/exclusive-fbi-whistleblower-who-exposed-j6-weaponization-speaks-out-on-pardons-n4936217
Interesting commentary from a former FBI whistleblower.
whembly (ca6c2a) — 1/22/2025 @ 8:31 amYou fed him. Now you own him. Good luck.
BuDuh (2e2fb6) — 1/22/2025 @ 8:33 amI’m okay with this change by Trump. The American flag itself should stand for equal treatment.
Paul Montagu (c49ccf) — 1/22/2025 @ 8:36 amI stand corrected!
Paul Montagu (c49ccf) — 1/22/2025 @ 8:38 amOf course, this part of Trump’s 1/7/2021 statement is a bald-faced lie:
Because Trump didn’t order any deployments the day before, let alone “immediately”.
Paul Montagu (c49ccf) — 1/22/2025 @ 8:40 amBiden cemented his place in history that, for all their conduct in their final 70 days, the 46th president is 2nd worst
So, where is Buchanan then, who lobbied the Court to decide against Dredd Scott, then slept through the beginning of Civil War?
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/22/2025 @ 8:41 amThen how did Biden expel the Russian diplomats?
That’s all you can do to diplomats; tell them they are no longer allowed to remain here.
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/22/2025 @ 8:43 am14th Amendment clearly didn’t mean anchor babies or tourist babies.
Heck, it probably didn’t even mean the children of slaves, who never correctly applied for admission in the first place!
/sarc
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/22/2025 @ 8:45 amBad faith is alive and well in these comment threads.
Paul Montagu (c49ccf) — 1/22/2025 @ 8:45 amJust like there’s no evidence that foreign income to Hunter and James was illegal, there’s no evidence that foreign income from Serbia and a UAE billionaire to Jared and Eric and Donald is illegal, it’s just all scuzzy and yet another financial conflict of interest for an already financially conflicted president.
I’m okay with this change by Trump. The American flag itself should stand for equal treatment.
I’m not as it allows some other message-flags.
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/22/2025 @ 8:48 amHistorical recipients of pardons:
– Nixon
– Marc Rich
– Paul Manafort
– Roger Stone
– Hunter Biden
– Biden family and spouses
– Liz and the J6 Committee
Not good company, NeverTrump.
lloyd (76e94d) — 1/22/2025 @ 8:53 amBTW, lloyd, regarding that trans freakshow Joshua “Eva” Warner, he got off way too easy by the feds, but the bigger questions are these: Where was the Portland PD? Where was the Multnomah County Prosecutor? It was in their jurisdiction and not on federal property.
Actually, prosecutor question answers itself, because the office deliberately passed on prosecuting rioters in summer 2020, which only made the problem worse for Portlandia, but soft law enforcement in Area A shouldn’t justify soft law enforcement in Area B.
Paul Montagu (c49ccf) — 1/22/2025 @ 8:55 am@241 Look who you’re talking to….why would you expect anything else from Lloyd?
Time123 (05b75b) — 1/22/2025 @ 8:56 amSo it isn’t called a “One Flag Policy,” as Paul’s article notes and quotes?
You will find that detail in the very first line of the article.
BuDuh (2e2fb6) — 1/22/2025 @ 8:56 am@245 Glad to see Time123 got his ad hominem toys back.
lloyd (76e94d) — 1/22/2025 @ 9:08 am@229 nk, you forgot a couple:
– parents at school board meetings
lloyd (76e94d) — 1/22/2025 @ 9:09 am– Catholics
It is that simple. As the Supreme Court said in Wong Kim Ark, there are only three classes of children not subject to the jurisdiction of the United States:
My emphasis. In addition, federal law (8 U.S.C. § 1401) states who is a citizen of the United States:
See also Defining “American” by U.S. Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals Judge James C. Ho (appointed by President Trump in 2018.)
Footnotes omitted.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/22/2025 @ 9:32 am“Sober people who never got drunk….blah blah blah”, all of which is irrelevant to the present. No, you’re not supposed to care. But one or two Republican Senators might and that could doom his nomination. Similar accusations cost Senator John Tower his chance to be SECDEF.
Never in a million years can anyone compare Pete Hegseth with General Grant (except for their drinking.)
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/22/2025 @ 9:40 amIf I use your link and search for “constitution”, all I see are Trump’s executive orders. I just found it funny that the White House website deleted a history of the Constitution the same day President Trump 47 was violating his oath and the Take Care clause of the Constitution.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/22/2025 @ 9:55 amEmbarrassing
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/22/2025 @ 10:40 am:
Thing about Trump and his everything everywhere all at once first day is that it causes the criticism to be very scattershot. Whether Trump did or did not have the Constitution linked on the POTUS website isn’t that important. A good Trumper can always look at the back of his Bible for a copy.
I found this article — on the pardons — interesting. It explains why VP Vance gave a different story about the pardons to the media.
https://www.axios.com/2025/01/22/trump-pardons-jan6-
Appalled (734ded) — 1/22/2025 @ 10:43 amTHIS can’t be bad:
Disagreements with Elon Musk prompted Ramaswamy’s ‘DOGE’ exit
Anything involving the words “Ramaswamy” and “exit” is presumed to be good.
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/22/2025 @ 10:50 amSimilar accusations cost Senator John Tower his chance to be SECDEF.
John Tower had more going for him dead drunk than Hesgeth has cold sober.
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/22/2025 @ 10:53 amHistorical recipients of pardons:
Why did you leave out the convicted
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/22/2025 @ 10:55 amtraitorsseditious conspirators? Or people who tried to kill cops?subject to the jurisdiction thereof
This is the class of people who can be arrested for not paying a parking ticket, and no others.
I *might* entertain a question about illegal aliens in a sanctuary city where due process stops when their status might be compromised.
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/22/2025 @ 10:58 am“SoftBank has well under $10B secured. I have that on good authority.”
C’mon. In this heady envoronment all you ahve to do is say “A.I.” and they throw billions at you.
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/22/2025 @ 11:01 am“Never in a million years can anyone compare Pete Hegseth with General Grant (except for their drinking.)”
Of course it was all the smooth, bland, non-drinking types that detested Grant from the outset.
Rip, the problem with Never Trumpers is their constant agonizing over Trump’s “imperfect people,” stemming from their failure to grasp that there are no perfect people. Not to the Left.
Nixon was evil, Ford was stupid, Reagan was an “amiable duce” and a warmonger, while Bush and Romney were both Hitler. Paul Ryan was going to push grandma off a cliff, Kavanaugh was an ice cube throwing rapist, and Barret was a– “eewww, a Catholic.”
Caspar Weinberger was indicted, Don Rumsfeld (a very good SOD, was ridiculed and chased out), and here we are with Hegseth and Never Trumpers are moaning because “he drinks” and someone named “Danielle,” a friend of his ex wife ays he’s a drunk—-“isn’t there someone better?” Better than who? The people who have reduced the military to a T-group?
No one will be good enough for the left. Why are they are so opposed to Hegseth? Because he might go to a hospital for 3 weeks and not tell anyone?
Why don’t Never Trumpers suck it up for a change, put Hegseth in there and see how it goes. Stop premptively surrendering to every outburst.
Harcourt Fenton Mudd (0c349e) — 1/22/2025 @ 11:04 am“The people who have reduced the military to a T-group?”
Have you served, Mudd? I have, and my son is currently in the Navy. You don’t know what you’re talking about. The current state of the military is a direct result of pointless wars of the last 25 years.
Davethulhu (14e9e4) — 1/22/2025 @ 11:15 am@256
“It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer.” – William Blackstone
whembly (ca6c2a) — 1/22/2025 @ 11:39 amWhembly, I’m enjoying your exchange with RIP about birthright citizenship. It’s informative. thank you both for the discussion.
Time123 (ae7b06) — 1/22/2025 @ 12:00 pm@261, This is an argument for due process and enforcement of our rights. The rights of the seditious and violent Trump supporters weren’t violated, Trump and his supporters just don’t like it when the process produces results they dislike and he’s using his power to prevent that.
Time123 (8b3427) — 1/22/2025 @ 12:04 pm260: Davethuhlu: before I gave any weight to your claims, I would obviously have to know if you have ever been drunk in a strip bar, since that is evidently something so rare that its now a Career Disqualification. And if you ever made your wife fearful of violence (not according to you, but to a sister-in-law), since that is evidently also a new standard for competency about military matters.
As to me, that no, !A but not called up; only my WWII uncles served (all in combat-one did not survive the war), and one in Vietnam–combat – -as an LRRP.
But given that we do not have operable hypersonics (but the Chinese and Russians do), but do have well developed and well funded pronoun departments, and not enough F-22’s, but do have billion dollar littoral ships that are 100% useless, but a very limited number of 155 MM shells, I am not ready to defer to anyone in or out of uniform, esp the brass who let this happen.
The issue is whether being drunk in a strip bar is a basis not to make someone SOD: any input on that?
Harcourt Fenton Mudd (0c349e) — 1/22/2025 @ 12:07 pm“but do have well developed and well funded pronoun departments”
you’re a moron
Davethulhu (14e9e4) — 1/22/2025 @ 12:19 pmBecause Biden had no knowledge of any of those pardons when he pardoned the NeverTrumpers.
But, I’ve jotted down your request to lump Liz & Co with traitors and those who attack cops.
lloyd (76e94d) — 1/22/2025 @ 12:27 pm@263
I disagree.
This is where I and many stands:
https://x.com/KurtSchlichter/status/1881524660262859239
The purpose of the pardons is to aggressively punish the lawfare used against these people. Being actually guilty of something non-trivial doesn’t mean that you can’t have also been egregiously over-prosecuted and had your rights violated in the course of prosecution. That happened to all of these people.
Also keep in mind that it isn’t like all the J6ers got away with it “scott free” via the pardon.
They lost time while being jailed.
They lost income.
They lost jobs.
They lost reputation.
Their conviction is still on the books and public (unless appeals are successful).
So, there were punishment levied against the J6ers for their actions and that bell cannot be unrung.
The more pernicious uses of the Pardons are the likes of what Joe Biden did when he pre-emptively pardoned his family and the J6 committee. To me, that’s a far more abuse of the pardon powers, than even Trump’s pardon of the violent J6ers.
whembly (ca6c2a) — 1/22/2025 @ 12:33 pmCoast Guard Rescue Swimmer Disappointed He Can No Longer Work From Home.
lloyd (76e94d) — 1/22/2025 @ 12:33 pmSo I watched the video of Musk doing a Nazi salut. Seems intentional and not some kind of editing trick.
Any theories about his intent? Just really high? Wanted to flex on other CEO that he’s so big he can get away with it? Had some other intention such as ‘giving his heart away’ and just didn’t realize how dumb it would look?
Time123 (ae7b06) — 1/22/2025 @ 12:33 pmWhemby, Biden should have been impeached as soon as he pardoned Hunter. We’re in agreement on his abuse of the pardon power.
The claims about the J6 stuff being unfair are garbage. Same request as before that you provide any specific examples of abuse or J6ers being treated differently than similarly situated defendants.
Time123 (8b3427) — 1/22/2025 @ 12:37 pmElongated Muskrat is actively supporting the 2025 Notcies all over the world. Weirdly all places where he has business issues.
Colonel Klink (ret) (96f56a) — 1/22/2025 @ 12:39 pmYou’re late to the thread. Look up.
lloyd (76e94d) — 1/22/2025 @ 12:40 pm@269
Yeah, maybe there was something to that Zina Bash conspiracy theory. It all makes sense now.
lloyd (76e94d) — 1/22/2025 @ 12:44 pm265: Davethulhu: Using “you’re a moron,” to dismiss arguments you can’t respond to substantively is definitely helpful, and a class act. I understand your positons much better. Thanks! Hope you’re feeling better!
Harcourt Fenton Mudd (0c349e) — 1/22/2025 @ 12:48 pm“Any theories about his intent? Just really high? Wanted to flex on other CEO that he’s so big he can get away with it? Had some other intention such as ‘giving his heart away’ and just didn’t realize how dumb it would look?”
He did it because he has the mentality and impulse control of a 2010 era 4-chan poster.
Davethulhu (14e9e4) — 1/22/2025 @ 12:55 pm@270
The numbers wasn’t there in Congress.
We’ve been over this many times and I’m not about to repeat myself. I don’t know how else I can give you.
One easy one to point out is the riot at Lafayette Square…you know, when Trump was mocked when SS sent him to a secured area at the Whitehouse?
Tell me how many officers were hurt there.
Then tell me how many arrest/prosecutions were made.
Here’s an exercise I’d recommend – try to steelman my position. Actually do some research in support of my positions and then get back to me.
whembly (ca6c2a) — 1/22/2025 @ 1:00 pm269. Time123 (ae7b06) — 1/22/2025 @ 12:33 pm
It was intentional, but probably not intended as a Nazi salute.
Most likely: Somebody tricked him into doing it and he did not realize it could be interpreted as a Nazi salute.
Ivanka and Jared Kushner did half of it (the part about holding your hand over your heart.)
This was no dog whistle. Dog whistle to whom, and why?
Any theories about his intent? Just really high? Wanted to flex on other CEO that he’s so big he can get away with it? Had some other intention such as ‘giving his heart away’ and just didn’t realize how dumb it would look?
Sammy Finkelman (e4ef09) — 1/22/2025 @ 1:02 pm@276 Also, tell me if there were any property damage or the likes and if there were any arrest/prosecutions.
whembly (ca6c2a) — 1/22/2025 @ 1:03 pmHe was tricked into doing it. And somebody involved was ready to go, or it could have passed unnoticed. I don’t think it was apractical joke.
Sammy Finkelman (e4ef09) — 1/22/2025 @ 1:04 pm@275
Meanwhile, ya’ll ignoring all the Democrat examples of doing the same thing.
Do we want to apply the same rules to everyone?
Or, maybe, just maybe… some we should understand the context and not simply godwin every single thing our political opponents does.
If you had integrity… maybe that is what we’d do.
whembly (ca6c2a) — 1/22/2025 @ 1:06 pm“Here’s an exercise I’d recommend – try to steelman my position. Actually do some research in support of my positions and then get back to me.”
why don’t you do the opposite and come up with a reason why there weren’t a lot of arrests
Davethulhu (14e9e4) — 1/22/2025 @ 1:08 pm@281 w
No.
Because people like ‘you’ always approach these things a bad faith.
SO, no… you don’t get a cookie.
whembly (ca6c2a) — 1/22/2025 @ 1:10 pmWhembly, Acccording to the DOJ there were 156 arrests / prosecutions from that riot.
Seems like a pretty significant LEO response that would stand to invalidate your position of a 2 tier justice system.
Time123 (8b3427) — 1/22/2025 @ 1:10 pmPaul Montagu (7d07c9) — 1/21/2025 @ 5:40 am
There were two Bibles that Donald Trump had been prepared to swear on.
https://www.keranews.org/2025-01-20/the-backstories-of-the-bibles-that-trump-and-vance-had-on-hand
It was used twice by Barack Obama and by Trump in 2017.
But they were running about twenty minutes behind schedule, and it was decided t skip some or postpone certain events (I think playing if some music) Chief Justice John Roberts wanted to have the swearing in as soon as possible after 12 noon, and he plunged ahead, (in case of what?) not giving Melania, who was holding the bibles, any time to get up and give the Bibles to Donald Trump. (And of course Donald Trump didn’t perceive anything essential to be missing)
Sammy Finkelman (e4ef09) — 1/22/2025 @ 1:11 pm@283 Good start. Dig deeper.
What were the charges, conviction and punishment.
Do that first. Get all that information, and then set it aside.
Once you have that, do the same for the J6ers and compare.
whembly (ca6c2a) — 1/22/2025 @ 1:13 pm“Meanwhile, ya’ll ignoring all the Democrat examples of doing the same thing.”
Like who? and don’t just pick a still photo of someone with their arm held out
Here’s some additional context though
https://x.com/BartoSitek/status/1882081868423860315
Davethulhu (14e9e4) — 1/22/2025 @ 1:13 pm@280, Whembly, I’m not saying his intended message with HH. I doubt that it was. I’m asking what other ppl thought he meant. I think Dave has a good take, he’s an immature Troll…but Sammy’s idea that he was just putting his hand on his heart and then flailing about has merit…dude is known to use recreational drugs….
Time123 (8b3427) — 1/22/2025 @ 1:14 pm“Because people like ‘you’ always approach these things a bad faith.”
lol, always the same
Davethulhu (14e9e4) — 1/22/2025 @ 1:14 pm@285, I’ve looked at charges for the J6ers. They’re consistent with other similarly situated defendants.
Ppl who push the narrative you like ignore that, and how differences in circumstances may justify different outcomes, such as the J6ers that were planning violent sedition getting harsher sentences.
Time123 (17ec22) — 1/22/2025 @ 1:18 pm@286, that’s a pretty compelling argument for HH being the intended message….but still consistent with him trolling.
Time123 (17ec22) — 1/22/2025 @ 1:20 pm@288
Yup. I’m good at calling your bs.
whembly (ca6c2a) — 1/22/2025 @ 1:22 pm“that’s a pretty compelling argument for HH being the intended message….but still consistent with him trolling.”
I feel that Popehat’s “Rule of Goats” applies.
Davethulhu (14e9e4) — 1/22/2025 @ 1:25 pmTime’s link only mentions one person by name, Brennan Sermon. A search of his name yields only this.
Can’t find anything else. No prosecution, sentence or conviction. If there was any, I assume it would be easy to find. If this is the most high profile case, it’s a garbage argument.
(There’s also what I linked @219.)
lloyd (76e94d) — 1/22/2025 @ 1:27 pmFor observers, certainly, but I’m curious what ppl think his intentions were.
Time123 (8b3427) — 1/22/2025 @ 1:27 pm@289
I’m not ignoring anything.
I’m just not willing to take things a face value, especially on a politically charged topic as this.
Look, even the Supreme Court smacked down the Biden-era’s attempt to use a statutory law that was meant to prevent companies from tampering evidence (18 U.S.C. § 1512(c)(2))when supoena’ed to elevate many of the J6er’s to a felony indictment:
https://www.scotusblog.com/2024/06/justices-rule-for-jan-6-defendant/
This, RIGHT HERE, is indicative that the Biden-era DOJ overcharged/overprosecuted the J6ers.
Does it not?
whembly (ca6c2a) — 1/22/2025 @ 1:28 pm@294
He’s not an F’n nazi. He was waving at the crowd.
Please people have some decency.
He’s on the spectrum (aspergers), and is a very awkward man.
Fer crying out loud, he went to Auschwitz with Ben Shaprio recently:
whembly (ca6c2a) — 1/22/2025 @ 1:32 pmhttps://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/elon-musk-says-jewish-association-auschwitz-visit-sees-almost-no-antis-rcna135271
@295, Looks like restraint to me. Rather then charge the vast majority with seditious conspiracy with with with trespassing and interfering with documents. Those are also easier to charge. If you look at the penalties you’ll find modest fines and probation…which is consistent with restraint and not over charging.
Time123 (17ec22) — 1/22/2025 @ 1:33 pmFor Trump being a Putin stooge, he’s sucking at his role bigly:
https://nypost.com/2025/01/22/us-news/trump-tells-putin-to-end-ukraine-war-now-or-else-we-can-do-it-the-easy-way-or-the-hard-way/
That doesn’t sound like someone who’s a Putin flunky.
whembly (ca6c2a) — 1/22/2025 @ 1:35 pmI didn’t say he was a nazi. But he repeatedly made a gesture that is indistinguishable from a Nazi salute…it’s not a subtle motion and he hasn’t made it before AFAIK
Time123 (8b3427) — 1/22/2025 @ 1:36 pmIn short, one Wong makes a right.
Paul Montagu (074d4e) — 1/22/2025 @ 1:40 pm/ dad joke
@297
Did you @ the wrong post, because that doesn’t even make sense.
The Biden DOJ pursued applying 18 U.S.C. § 1512(c)(2), a felony, to nearly every J6er as a way to overcharge the defendent.
Let me remind you what 18 U.S.C. § 1512(c)(2) really means:
It only applies to cases involving evidence tampering that obstructs an official proceeding.
The Biden DOJ fought all the way to SCOTUS to be able to charge the J6er so that they can apply this contorted interpretation of this statute to all J6ers…even the ones who only peacefully walked the halls and left.
So, no, you are 100% wrong that the Biden DOJ show “restraint” then. In fact, it’s truly laughable to declare there was any “restraint”.
whembly (ca6c2a) — 1/22/2025 @ 1:42 pm@301 and @Time123
whembly (ca6c2a) — 1/22/2025 @ 1:45 pmThe overcharging the J6er, ie 18 U.S.C. § 1512(c)(2), very obviously strong armed many J6ers to plea out… because they know they won’t get a fair trial and could face an even more severe punishment. Defendant takes the plea not only because they committed the crimes… but in fear of facing a long prison term in such hostile courts.
LOL! I’m sure that scenario was extremely unlikely.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/22/2025 @ 1:49 pmYes, and it was easier and a ‘lesser’ charge than seditious conspiracy, which in my opinion would have been justified, if harder to prove in court.
If you investigate you’ll see that my statement about the associated sentences are accurate.
Time123 (8b3427) — 1/22/2025 @ 1:49 pmAre you somehow unaware that prosecutors routinely offer defendants the opportunity to plead guilty to lesser charges and that if going to trial carries risk?
Also, your stuff about a fair triall is more garbage.
Time123 (8b3427) — 1/22/2025 @ 1:52 pmThe proof will be in the pudding. I’m sure after Trump’s meeting with Putin Trump will find some way to walk back his post, or may be just deny he ever said it. Trump has already missed his deadline of ending the Ukraine war in one day.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/22/2025 @ 1:57 pm@305
Vehemently disagree.
When you have District DC judges making political anti-Trump statements and hyperbolically describes the J6ers, they’re not getting a fair trial.
Miss me with all that bs.
Furthermore, you’re stubborningly ignoring SCOTUS smacking down the Biden DOJ usages of 8 U.S.C. § 1512(c)(2) to elevate many indictments to felonies (whereas most would only be misdemeanors).
Why?
Why are you ignoring that?
Is it because it completely undermines your position that the Biden DOJ shown “restraint”?
whembly (ca6c2a) — 1/22/2025 @ 1:58 pmThere were other felony charges available to charge. They picked that one because it was easy to prove and likely less inflammatory than using seditious conspiracy.
Time123 (8b3427) — 1/22/2025 @ 2:00 pm“Are you somehow unaware that prosecutors routinely offer defendants the opportunity to plead guilty to lesser charges and that if going to trial carries risk?”
It’s an article of faith to these people that the J6 defendants have been uniquely wronged, rather than this being a feature of the criminal justice system.
Just at random, have this example:
https://www.ljlaw.org/blog/prosecutors-overcharge-defendants-to-scare-them-into-guilty-pleas/
This just one example, a smallish law firm in Baton Rouge. I could easily find many more.
Davethulhu (14e9e4) — 1/22/2025 @ 2:07 pmTime123 (8b3427) — 1/22/2025 @ 1:14 pm
My idea was that maybe somebody instructed him to do this, (put your hand over your heart and then reach out embrace the whole audience) and maybe also tried with Ivanka and Jared Kushner, except all they did was put their hands over their hearts..
Sammy Finkelman (e4ef09) — 1/22/2025 @ 2:08 pmFor someone who was a “Putin flunky” during his first term I have no idea where you get your optimism.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/22/2025 @ 2:12 pm299. Time123 (8b3427) — 1/22/2025 @ 1:36 pm
As I said, somebody who knew what would or could be interpreted as, tricked him into doing this, and had some confederates on the Internet ready to point that out and maybe an influencer or two to help.
Sammy Finkelman (e4ef09) — 1/22/2025 @ 2:13 pmCompletely lacking in any evidence at all.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/22/2025 @ 2:14 pmRip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/22/2025 @ 1:57 pm
Trump had to know he was unlikely to do this, but bet that either it would happen (just like it sort of happened with the release of the hostages in Gaza) and if so everyone would remember he had predicted it, or it would not happen and everybody would forget his prediction.
As time when on he saw he couldn’t do anything to make it happen and stopped mentioning it.
But he did keep up his vague threat about what would happen if the hostages were not released. His envoy is said to have also pushed Netanyahu to make a deal except this is basically the same incomplete deal that Netanyahu accepted months ago.
Sammy Finkelman (e4ef09) — 1/22/2025 @ 2:19 pm313. Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/22/2025 @ 2:14 pm
Except that that would explain it, and that there were other people close to Trump who made a similar gesture (putting the hand over the heart and taking it away)
Do you have a better explanation?
That Elon Musk intended to give a Nazi salute makes no sense.
Sammy Finkelman (e4ef09) — 1/22/2025 @ 2:23 pmAlso that he had never done it before as far as Time123 knows.
Sammy Finkelman (e4ef09) — 1/22/2025 @ 2:24 pmRip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/22/2025 @ 1:49 pm
Why? Elon Musk (or Trump) has no enemies?
Sammy Finkelman (e4ef09) — 1/22/2025 @ 2:26 pmI think Elon Musk was told to wave to the crowd. (not embrace like I said earlier.)
That would account for him using only one hand (or arm)
Sammy Finkelman (e4ef09) — 1/22/2025 @ 2:31 pmMusk’s gesture speaks for itself.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/22/2025 @ 2:32 pmMusk (and Trump) aren’t that stupid to be tricked.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/22/2025 @ 2:35 pmhttps://www.nationalguard.mil/News/Article/2466077/dod-details-national-guard-response-to-capitol-attack
Except that that happened without Trump’s personal involvement or awareness of it. But I suppose you could justify saying that with the theory that all actions by an Administration are actions of a president. And it is very bad habit of many administration PR people to claim credit that doesn’t belong.
Sammy Finkelman (e4ef09) — 1/22/2025 @ 2:35 pmI doubt anyone knows how many times Musk does something. Who is keeping count?
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/22/2025 @ 2:36 pmRip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/22/2025 @ 2:35 pm
You really have that much confidence in Musk?
Who often rushed ahead with stupid suggestions (counting on reversing himself, in whole or in part if it turns out to be wrong.
In this case Trump didn’t need to be tricked, except maybe in letting a trickster get involved in the event planning. And Ivanka and Jared were not fully tricked.
Sammy Finkelman (e4ef09) — 1/22/2025 @ 2:38 pmThis has never been noticed before. Musk would not have done it before because if he had it would have been called to his attention that placing his hand over his heart nd then waving as big as possible to the crowd could look like he was making a Nazi salute.
Sammy Finkelman (e4ef09) — 1/22/2025 @ 2:40 pmA straight armed wave? He needs lessons from beauty queens.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/22/2025 @ 2:42 pmRip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/22/2025 @ 2:32 pm
It cannot mean what it could seem to mean.
You think Trump would like it?
Sammy Finkelman (e4ef09) — 1/22/2025 @ 2:43 pmHe didn’t become the richest man in the world by being stupid, or letting others trick him.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/22/2025 @ 2:44 pmRip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/22/2025 @ 2:42 pm
Yes he does, but the crowd was not just in front of him but on all sides.
Sammy Finkelman (e4ef09) — 1/22/2025 @ 2:44 pmI have no idea.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/22/2025 @ 2:44 pmIf that is true, then the appropriate gesture would using both arms in a hugging gesture, not a straight arm gesture.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/22/2025 @ 2:45 pmWhy not?
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/22/2025 @ 2:46 pm@308
No. You are giving too much deference to the Biden DOJ.
I would argue that there were NOT “other felony charges” available.
They had to contort themselves to fit a square peg (18 U.S.C. § 1512(c)(2)) into the round hole (J6er), because it was the easiest pathway to slap a felony charge that which eventually got smacked down by SCOTUS.
The mere fact the Biden DOJ tried to force the application of 18 U.S.C. § 1512(c)(2) is strong evidence of malicious prosecution.
whembly (ca6c2a) — 1/22/2025 @ 2:47 pm“He didn’t become the richest man in the world by being stupid, or letting others trick him.”
He’s the Henry Ford of our generation.
Davethulhu (14e9e4) — 1/22/2025 @ 3:13 pmThat was quick:
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/22/2025 @ 3:17 pmOuch!
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/22/2025 @ 3:17 pmHenry Ford was stupid, with his plans to end World War I, with his anti-semitism, and with his extreme opposition to unions.
To get rich, you only have to get a few things right.
Sammy Finkelman (ddfda6) — 1/22/2025 @ 5:02 pm204.
Another place you can get this is:
https://web.archive.org/web/20240714080642/https://www.whitehouse.gov/about-the-white-house/our-government/the-constitution
Sammy Finkelman (ddfda6) — 1/22/2025 @ 5:07 pmThat’s the old Biden website.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/22/2025 @ 5:16 pmThe numbers that count:
Ouch!
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/22/2025 @ 5:55 pmOuch
BuDuh (4214e4) — 1/22/2025 @ 6:15 pmDouble ouch
BuDuh (4214e4) — 1/22/2025 @ 6:19 pm339: Rip: Its cute that you relied on the figure that watched it on legacy media, versus on X. And omitted the views on X. Kind of like reporting the number of letters a business received while ignoring the emails. Ouch, as someone might say
Harcourt Fenton Mudd (2d275d) — 1/22/2025 @ 6:51 pmFair use of copyrighted material without consent of the copyright owner requires selective editing of articles. As far as streaming, there was nothing in article with specific numbers. If either of you can find that data, feel free to post it. I don’t do social media like X, Meta, etc.
Rip Murdock (8907f7) — 1/22/2025 @ 7:18 pm“Views on X” is a meaningless stat. It counts a view if you scroll past it in your feed.
Davethulhu (0a60a6) — 1/22/2025 @ 7:18 pmHahahahahahahaha hahahahaha hahahahahahahahajanahahahah!!!!!
Nothing stopped you from fair reading of the article. And your unfair reading made you clench and say “Ouch!”
Hahahahaha a!!!
At least Dave is going for some sort of a technical cop out that he can’t prove.
+1 Dave.
BuDuh (4214e4) — 1/22/2025 @ 7:22 pmMy 6:15 was from your article. “Over 30 million” isn’t specific enough? Even though 30 million is a guaranteed?
Ouch again..
BuDuh (4214e4) — 1/22/2025 @ 7:28 pmNo; I’d like to see that aggregate broken by streamer (including demos), like my posted article did for the nets. In any event, both can be true-declining legacy viewership and high streaming viewership. But since Trump got his celebrity start on TV, I’ll bet he’s disappointed in his ratings.
Rip Murdock (8907f7) — 1/22/2025 @ 7:37 pmPretend Facts not in evidence, Mr Real World.
LOL
BuDuh (4214e4) — 1/22/2025 @ 7:39 pmI’m not asserting a fact, just stating an opinion.
Rip Murdock (8907f7) — 1/22/2025 @ 7:47 pmThere’s a big difference.
Rip Murdock (8907f7) — 1/22/2025 @ 7:48 pmOk…
BuDuh (4214e4) — 1/22/2025 @ 7:56 pm@215Democrats voted to pardon or commute Leonard Peltier in 2020 as well as to vote trump out. Republicans did the same for their side when they voted for trump. Has the price of eggs gone down yet?
asset (ab1ff3) — 1/22/2025 @ 7:57 pmA comment from Catoggio about Bolton…
What makes Trump’s decision to cancel Bolton’s Secret Service protection all the more callous and contemptible is that Mike Pompeo is still protected by our country, at a cost of $2 million a month, and it’s immoral and cruel and dare I say fascist, all because of political differences.
Paul Montagu (3bccc6) — 1/22/2025 @ 10:06 pmDavid French has a little more on Trump’s wrongheaded EO on birthright citizenship, linking to Vladeck. Bottom line, it’s not just about Wong v. Ark, because birthright citizenship is also statutory law (8 USC 1401, which Trump can’t cancel with a lower-powered EO), and there are two other Supreme Court cases that affirm Wong v. Ark. And for all the MAGAs and Trump crying “invasion”, no it ain’t, that’s MAGA hyperbole.
Paul Montagu (3bccc6) — 1/23/2025 @ 8:24 amCredit where due to Trump, because he’s right to classify the Houthis as a Foreign Terrorist Organization.
Paul Montagu (3bccc6) — 1/23/2025 @ 9:09 amWell, now that the Houthi’s are on that list, we can start raining hell down on them, since it’s obvious that this was definitely keeping the US from striking them on the daily.
Other than the thousands of strikes over the last few years, 500 in one week, and the last a couple of weeks ago.
But I’m confused:
So we (and NATO and regional allies) have been pounding them for years, Biden removed them in 2021, but added them back too, all while, again, hitting them with airstrikes, sending in SOCOM ground forces, etc.
stupid Hitler actually had EO’s that do things, and then there are the pardons, not just his brownshirts, but a drug/human/weapons trafficker, money launderer, who paid $750k to have 5 people killed.
Colonel Klink (ret) (96f56a) — 1/23/2025 @ 9:47 amThe WaPo is discovering the terrible economy, now that Biden is gone:
In the ‘Great Stay’ economy, Americans feel stuck
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/23/2025 @ 10:38 amThe problem with Wong v Ark and other citizenship cases is that they were decided in VERY different times. The practical changes in travel, where it does not take months (and great expense) to go from Beijing to San Francisco, are meaningful. In 1880, going from Europe to America was onerous, with most immigrants in the barest of berths for just about all the savings. Now? $500 will get you an airplane seat.
Courts do look at contemporary reality when deciding cases. I don’t think they will side with Trump, but those 19th century cases aren’t the slam dunk you think they are.
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/23/2025 @ 10:45 amKevin, the two Supreme Court cases that affirmed Wong v. Ark were decided in 1982 (Plyler v. Doe) and 1985 (INS v. Rios-Pineda).
Paul Montagu (3bccc6) — 1/23/2025 @ 12:07 pmThat didn’t take long. A Reagan-appointed judge shot down Trump’s EO on birthright citizenship, and without reservation…
Paul Montagu (3bccc6) — 1/23/2025 @ 12:15 pmThe judge is wrong and his decision should be stayed.
NJRob (9f04fe) — 1/23/2025 @ 2:16 pmKevin, the two Supreme Court cases that affirmed Wong v. Ark were decided in 1982 (Plyler v. Doe) and 1985 (INS v. Rios-Pineda).
INS vs Rios-Pineda may have mentioned Ark, but it affirmed nothing involved in that holding. What it was, was a case about when the 7-year residency period mattered, and the decision was that you could not count the time following a denial of an expulsion appeal when appeals of the denial were pending.
Plyler v Doe is also off-point. It held that the children of illegals have an equal protection right to attend public schools. The decision did not depend on the citizenship of the minors, as equal protection applies to “persons” and goes at AT LENGTH to assert that the citizenship status of the minor is immaterial. As such, it does not have a dog in the Ark hunt.
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/23/2025 @ 2:36 pmPeggy Noonan looks at Trump’s first few days. She’s in fine form.
Donald the Wonder Horse
He is living in most of our heads, rent-free. And we know what he’d like to do with real estate that he’s got rent-free. He’ll sublet it to all kinds of folks.
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/23/2025 @ 2:42 pmThe judge is wrong and his decision should be stayed.
It won’t be. Watch and learn. The weight of 14th Amendment jurisprudence is such that ONLY the US Supreme Court can retcon the precedents.
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/23/2025 @ 2:47 pmRight, that Reagan-appointed judge must be a socialist or something.
Paul Montagu (3bccc6) — 1/23/2025 @ 2:53 pmVladeck in the link above has the appropriate references…
Paul Montagu (3bccc6) — 1/23/2025 @ 2:57 pmBut I have to say that US v Wong Kim Ark isn’t completely the answer here (and how this got called “Wong v Ark” here is a mystery).
The decision muddies the waters as much as it clears them up. Kim’s citizenship apparently depends on his parent’s long-term lawful residence and upon him not having ever renounced his allegiance. One might argue that some of the facts used to assert his citizenship are immaterial, but they were cited in the decision of the court.
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/23/2025 @ 3:08 pmPaul, that’s mere dicta. It has nothing to do with the Plyler case as it did not matter whether the children had been born here, of if they arrived last week from Mexico. Texas could not excluded them from their public school. It is also dicta in the Rios case, having no bearing whatsoever on the decision, which was actually not even about immigration per se. It was about not allowing a residence period to run during repeated and vexatious appeals.
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/23/2025 @ 3:14 pmIn short, Vladeck is hoping you don’t read the cases he’s citing.
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/23/2025 @ 3:16 pmTemporary restraining orders aren’t appealable.
Rip Murdock (c222c5) — 1/23/2025 @ 3:31 pmWhat are the odds against the Supreme Court overturning birthright citizenship? I’d say at least 10-1, but would be interested in hearing guesstimates from lawyers on what would be a fair bet.
Jim Miller (91e356) — 1/23/2025 @ 4:12 pm> The judge is wrong and his decision should be stayed.
Didn’t you object when lower court decisions overturned the supreme court precedent on gay marriage from the 70s under the theory that only the supreme court could do that?
Why is this different? Or do you just pretend to care about process arguments when they align with your outcome preferences?
aphrael (dbf41f) — 1/23/2025 @ 4:17 pmHere’s an odd fact: All residents, except for diplomats and people resident under student or tourist visas, must register for the draft. This includes people illegally resident. Illegal residents, however, cannot volunteer for the Army, but may be drafted (if there was a draft).
So, there may be some argument for excluding children of tourists and non-immigrant students from birthright citizenship, as their parents do not intend long-term residence and they have citizenship in their parent’s country. I don’t think the 14th Amendment countenances this distinction, but it was a category that did not really exist in 1866, so original intent is muddy.
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/23/2025 @ 4:18 pmExtra credit, naturally, if you can predict the Supreme Court vote on birthright citizenship.
Jim Miller (91e356) — 1/23/2025 @ 4:37 pmIn favor of current law: all but Alito.
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/23/2025 @ 4:52 pmIn favor of current law, except for Alito, Kavanaugh, and Thomas.
aphrael (dbf41f) — 1/23/2025 @ 4:56 pmThomas is unlikely to gut that part of the 14th Amendment. Kavanaugh is unlikely to risk bad press.
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/23/2025 @ 5:09 pmAs long as Trump is issuing orders, he ought to empanel a commission to investigate the response to the L.A. Fires. Some of the details are pretty ugly and it’s likely the state is going to whitewash it. Hopefully, the commission would be chaired by someone who isn’t MAGA. Maybe Liz.
New issues:
In Altadena, the part of the city east of Lake Avenue was evacuated pretty quickly. No one died there.
People living west of Lake were not even warned until 3AM, even though some houses there had been burning for hours. 17 people died there.
Extra credit: What do you suppose the historical significance of Lake Avenue was?
Kevin M (a9545f) — 1/23/2025 @ 5:17 pmDicta gave cover for Judge Cannon to blow up a valid criminal case.
Paul Montagu (3bccc6) — 1/23/2025 @ 5:21 pmWhat is the legal argument that children of illegal immigrants born in the United States aren’t “subject to the jurisdiction thereof”?
What is the legal theory that allows a President to reinterpret a Supreme Court’s decision by Executive Order?
Rip Murdock (c222c5) — 1/23/2025 @ 7:17 pm@371
I’d say it’s an easy 6-3 decision that birthright citizenship is not overturn, but doesn’t apply to illegal aliens.
I feel like I’m repeating myself, the key phrase to consider there when considering who is a “natural-born citizen” is “subject to the jurisdiction thereof.”
The argument is that illegal immigrants are subject to a foreign sovereignty, are therefore not subject to U.S. jurisdiction, and thus the citizenship clause above does not apply.
The “subject to the jurisdiction thereof” clause, is either ignored or misinterpreted by birthright citizenship advocates, has to have some meaning or it wouldn’t have been included, and the number of children of foreign diplomats being vanishingly small, we can assume it extended beyond that extremely rare case (so rare as hardly to be worth mentioning). What was meant by the clause was that you had to be subject to no other sovereign.
Senator Jacob Howard drafted the citizenship clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. Here is what he said it meant: “This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers accredited to the Government of the United States, but will include every other class of persons.” (Emphasis added.) Well, if we value honesty, that right there should settle it. Congressman John Bingham, sometimes called the father of the Fourteenth Amendment itself, held that its meaning was that “every human being born within the jurisdiction of the United States of parents not owing allegiance to any foreign sovereignty is, in the language of your Constitution itself, a natural born citizen.” (Emphasis added.)
Beyond this evidence, two Ivy League professors, Peter Schuck and Rogers Smith, in Citizenship Without Consent: Illegal Aliens in the American Polity, published by Yale University Press, make a compelling case that the Fourteenth Amendment does not mandate birthright citizenship.
The two scholars begin a Summer 2018 article in National Affairs this way: If an unauthorized alien gives birth to a child on American soil, is the child automatically a United States citizen? Americans have long assumed that the answer is yes — that the child is a birthright citizen regardless of the parent’s legal status, and that such citizenship is required and guaranteed by the Constitution. But a closer examination of the matter suggests that this answer is actually incorrect, and that birthright citizenship for the children of immigrants here illegally is better understood as a matter for Congress and the American people to resolve. What makes their conclusion especially interesting is that Schuck and Smith describe themselves as scholars who “strongly favor even more legal immigration than the U.S. now accepts, and a generous amnesty for those now here illegally.” So even though their conclusion runs counter to their personal political beliefs, and they are not Trump sympathizers in the least, they contend that the evidence is so strong against birthright citizenship that scholarly honesty compels them to say so: “The fact that many opponents of birthright citizenship for the children of unauthorized parents harbor anti-immigrant views does not mean that their bottom-line position is wrong.” They argue that because the Constitution does not mandate birthright citizenship, the matter may be regulated by congressional statute instead.
There was no “illegal immigration” problem at the time the Fourteenth Amendment was drafted, so (even though we have the testimony of Jacob Howard, which would seem to settle the matter), Schuck and Smith suggest using the example of Native Americans to shed light on the issue: The framers vested such discretion [regarding the citizenship question] in Congress with respect to Native Americans, whose presence in the country (which of course long predated that of the framers themselves) was manifestly accepted. This was recognized in the 14th Amendment’s own text, a long line of treaties with the tribes, and legislation regulating their citizenship. We doubt the framers would have denied Congress that same policy choice with respect to a group whose very presence in the country — by definition — violates federal law. Basic constitutional protections for this group would certainly have been granted, as in Plyler. But automatic citizenship without public debate and congressional consent would probably not have been. [Emphasis added.] This is one very good reason that history matters. Not so much because we can always draw neat little “lessons” from it, but because if we have a deep knowledge of history we will be better equipped to respond to shysters trying to pull one over on us.
whembly (5b24be) — 1/23/2025 @ 7:51 pm@381 crap, the link to x failed. The above blurb was from @ThomasEWoods
whembly (5b24be) — 1/23/2025 @ 7:53 pm@379
Bull CaCa.
Judge Cannon rightly shut down the case when she found that Jack Smith was improperly tapped as special prosecutor and when the government refused to give Judge Cannon any recourse that the government could “cure” that defect.
Jack Smith was not a valid special counsel as he wasn’t nominated by the President and confirmed by the Senate.
And I sure as hell don’t want Trump tapping Mike Davis or Alina Habba or William Shipley as a special counsel either.
That pathway is madness.
Dicta my ass.
whembly (5b24be) — 1/23/2025 @ 7:59 pm@380
See my post @381
1) the question was never tested in front of SCOTUS.
2) since it’s not tested at SCOTUS, and Congress hasn’t passed a statutory law…President can issue EO to instruct the administration to certain interpretation.
3) it’s all moot as it was obvious that this is merely a vehicle to get this controversy in front of SCOTUS for final ruling.
whembly (5b24be) — 1/23/2025 @ 8:02 pmIf it is true that the children of illegal immigrants are not “subject to the jurisdiction” of the United States, then they cannot be prosecuted for any crimes.
Rip Murdock (c222c5) — 1/23/2025 @ 8:02 pmI can see a scenario where this doesn’t come before the Supreme Court. If the various Circuit Courts of Appeal all agree that the Trump EO is unconstitutional, then there wouldn’t be a circuit split to resolve.
Rip Murdock (c222c5) — 1/23/2025 @ 8:05 pm@385
You. ARE. Misinterpreting. This. Again.
“subject to the jurisdiction” is NOT about whether current laws applies to the person.
“subject to the jurisdiction” is whether that person be subject to another sovereign or owed allegiance to another sovereign.
See the distinction?
whembly (5b24be) — 1/23/2025 @ 8:16 pmWhatever happened to The Living Constitution we were always lectured on?
lloyd (621625) — 1/23/2025 @ 8:17 pm@386
Circuit split isn’t the only way a case can be brought to SCOTUS.
whembly (5b24be) — 1/23/2025 @ 8:17 pmCongress did enact 8 U.S.C. § 1401 which states:
And the Civil Rights Act of 1866 states
Rip Murdock (c222c5) — 1/23/2025 @ 8:19 pmWhat is the evidence that children of illegal immigrants owe “allegiance to another sovereign”?
Rip Murdock (c222c5) — 1/23/2025 @ 8:22 pmThomas E. Woods is a racist and Confederate sympathizer. I wrote about him at RedState, back when GW Bush was prez.
Paul Montagu (3bccc6) — 1/23/2025 @ 8:37 pmRegarding the 14th Amendment, Jon Adler is a great source on the subject (and for conservative-leaning environmental issues…
Paul Montagu (3bccc6) — 1/23/2025 @ 8:44 pm