Patterico's Pontifications

6/14/2024

Weekend Open Thread

Filed under: General — Dana @ 8:44 am



[guest post by Dana]

Let’s go!

First news item

President Biden is right in this:

“I’m extremely proud of my son Hunter. He has overcome an addiction, he’s one of the brightest, most decent men I know,” Biden said during a news conference on the margins of the G7 summit.

“I am satisfied that I’m not going to do anything — I said I’d abide by the jury decision. I will do that. And I will not pardon him,” he added.

Second news item

Russian court, and ultimately Putin, proves to the world yet again just how vile an entity it is:

Russian prosecutors said they have approved an indictment of Evan Gershkovich, the Wall Street Journal reporter held in Russia for over a year, falsely accusing him of espionage and referring his case to a trial court, where he could face a series of secret, closed-door hearings.

. . .

In a statement Thursday, Russian authorities falsely said that Gershkovich was gathering information about a defense contractor on behalf of the Central Intelligence Agency. In fact, Gershkovich was on a reporting assignment for the Journal.

Third news item

The House votes:

The House voted Wednesday to hold Attorney General Merrick Garland in contempt of Congress, escalating a fight over audio recordings related to the President Biden’s handling of classified documents.

Garland has defied subpoenas from the Republican-led House Judiciary and Oversight committees demanding that the Justice Department hand over the audiotapes of the president’s interview with special counsel Robert Hur as part of their impeachment inquiry.

Mr. Biden asserted executive privilege over the recordings of Hur’s interviews with the president and the ghostwriter of his book as the committees moved forward with contempt resolutions against Garland in May.

Fourth news item

In Supreme Court news:

In a 6-3 ruling on ideological lines, with the court’s conservatives in the majority, the court held that an almost 100-year-old law aimed at banning machine guns cannot legitimately be interpreted to include bump stocks.

Writing for the majority, Justice Clarence Thomas said that a firearm equipped with the accessory does not meet the definition of “machinegun” under federal law.

. . .

Even with the federal ban out of the picture, bump stocks will still not be readily available nationwide. Eighteen states have already banned them, according to Everytown for Gun Safety, a nonprofit gun-control group. Congress could also act.

Note: “Under former President Trump, the ATF attempted to ban the attachment, called a “bump stock,” after a gunman used it in the 2017 Las Vegas shooting — the deadliest mass shooting in U.S. history. Now, they will be back on the market again.”

Fifth news item

From JVW: Trump is playing to win as he endorses Larry Hogan for Maryland’s open Senate seat:

Asked by Fox News reporter Aishah Hasnie whether he’d support Hogan’s bid, Trump replied: “I’d like to see him win. I think he has a good chance to win. . . . I know other people made some strong statements, but I can just say from my standpoint, I’m about the party and I’m about the country. And I would like to see him win.”

Trump’s surprising sudden approval of Hogan comes after the Senate GOP nominee defended a New York jury’s recent conviction of the former president in the Stormy Daniels hush-money case.

JVW is optimistic: “Of course, he may renege on his endorsement tomorrow or anytime thereafter, but for the moment he seems to understand he has to unite all of the GOP to in in November.”

Sixth news item

Oh:

Seventh news item

Nauseating fealty to Trump is alive and well as Trump visits Washington D.C.:

The former president spent the day just blocks away from the U.S. Capitol to attend a slate of meetings with GOP allies.

First, he huddled with House Republicans at the Capitol Hill Club. The meeting was behind closed doors, but multiple sources told ABC News the former president praised House Speaker Mike Johnson as doing a “good job.”

Trump also criticized the Department of Justice as “dirty bastards” as he aired grievances about his legal challenges.

. . .

Later on Thursday, Trump met with Senate Republicans at the National Republican Senatorial Committee headquarters. After the meeting, he touted party unity in on-camera remarks but took no questions from reporters.

“This is an outstanding group of people. I’m with them 1,000%, they’re with me 1,000%. We agree just about on everything and if there isn’t, we work it out,” Trump said.

a show of force, Trump was joined by a large group of senators, including Sens. Rick Scott, Josh Hawley, Lindsey Graham, Ted Cruz, Marsha Blackburn, and many others. Sens. Tim Scott and J.D. Vance, two vice presidential hopefuls, were also there to support Trump.

“We want to see just success for our country,” Trump said. “And we don’t have success right now.”

Have a great weekend.

—Dana

437 Responses to “Weekend Open Thread”

  1. Hello.

    Dana (45ce28)

  2. Posted on a previous thread:

    The Supreme Court’s ruling on the bump stock ban (which really was an unserious attempt on the part of the Trump ATF, to be seen as doing something after the LV massacre), gives hope that onerous Federal firearms regulations will meet the same fate.

    I would add that states should not be able to impose more restrictive firearm regulations than the federal government.

    Rip Murdock (3a971e)

  3. Trump may be endorsing Larry Hogan, but Hogan is not endorsing Trump, so it’s fair question as to how long Trump’s endorsement will last due to Larry’s “disloyalty”.

    Paul Montagu (d40e94)

  4. First news item-

    Biden also said at the same time that he will not commute any sentence that H. Biden receives.

    Rip Murdock (3a971e)

  5. LOL! Trump’s endorsement of Larry Hogan is the kiss of death in Maryland. It show up in every campaign ad.

    Rip Murdock (3a971e)

  6. If anything, the Garland contempt vote shows that the Republicans have the votes to impeach President Biden.

    When will that happen?

    Rip Murdock (3a971e)

  7. https://www.politico.com/news/2024/06/08/joe-biden-aides-family-business-dealings-00161476#

    For years, Joe Biden shared a bookkeeper with his son, Hunter. He also shared a personal lawyer with his brother, Jim. And when Jim Biden wanted to know more about one of Hunter Biden’s associates, he hired the former head of Joe Biden’s Secret Service detail to investigate.

    Since 2019, Joe Biden has repeatedly distanced himself from his family’s business dealings, saying that he has never so much as discussed them with his relatives or with anyone else. But House impeachment inquiry interviews, public records and emails reviewed by POLITICO show that members of his inner circle were regularly enmeshed in those dealings: Many of the president’s closest staffers and advisers have doubled as his relatives’ business associates, both during and after their stints working for the man at the center of the Biden family orbit.

    Those overlaps reflect an all-in-the family approach to business and politicking that dates back a half-century to the president’s first Senate bid, run primarily by his parents and siblings. Since then, his political patrons have at times forged business ties with his relatives, who in turn have converted some of their business partners into campaign supporters. And over a lifetime in public life, some of the president’s aides have taken on roles as surrogate members of the tight-knit Biden clan.

    The Bidens’ approach complicates their efforts to distance the president from his family’s ventures.

    As Jim and Hunter Biden’s foreign dealings have caused controversy and several of their business partners have been convicted of federal fraud and corruption crimes in recent years, any potential links between their business dealings and the president have come in for renewed scrutiny.

    To allay concerns about any intermingling of their affairs, the Bidens have said that they observe strict interpersonal firewalls to avoid discussing business among themselves.

    But with so many former and current aides in the mix — and with the surfacing of private communications in which Jim and Hunter Biden suggest they represent their powerful relative in business matters — onlookers are forced to take family members at their word that those firewalls always held.

    When even politico is being more honest about Biden’s lies than NeverTrumpers are.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  8. The extended video of Biden doesn’t make him look any better. It makes him look old and lost. He easily gets distracted and starts wandering. Like a cat with a spotlight.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  9. Nothing in the Politico article provides any evidence of illegality on President Biden’s part.
    Influence peddling by Hunter or Jim Biden or former aides is another question, and the article points out that their have been successful prosecutions.

    As I pointed out above, the House has demonstrated it has the votes to impeach the President. Why hasn’t that happened?

    Rip Murdock (3aaf7e)

  10. #9

    As I pointed out above, the House has demonstrated it has the votes to impeach the President. Why hasn’t that happened?

    Um, because they don’t really have the votes. The vote for holding Garland in contempt is an easy vote because it doesn’t distupt anything. An impeachment of Biden will be litigated and will get Representatives in Biden favoring didtricts plenty of bad press at the wrong moments.

    Appalled (c3fd24)

  11. When politics trumps principle (pun intended) it just shows how cynical the House impeachment “inquiry” was.

    Rip Murdock (3aaf7e)

  12. Whatever Biden’s alleged lies, they will never rise to the level of trying to overturn a legitimate election and fomenting violence at the U.S. Capitol. A sitting president essentially trashed the peaceful transfer of power, thus disrupting the process and the nation.

    Dana (04a914)

  13. Um, because they don’t really have the votes.

    If there isn’t a majority of Republicans on the House Judiciary Committee in favor of impeachment with all the “evidence” they and the House Oversight Committee have uncovered, then the whole effort has been a waste of time.

    Rip Murdock (3aaf7e)

  14. I very much hope that Hunter does what is required to stay clean and sober. Time will tell. People change quite a bit (for the better) in that process. Mainly because people who don’t change, don’t stay sober.

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  15. Whatever Biden’s alleged lies, they will never rise to the level of trying to overturn a legitimate election and fomenting violence at the U.S. Capitol. A sitting president essentially trashed the peaceful transfer of power, thus disrupting the process and the nation.

    Dana (04a914) — 6/14/2024 @ 11:40 am

    Hate Trump all you want, it doesn’t mean you should excuse or dismiss Biden’s behavior nor his totalitarian actions.

    NJRob (cfd33d)

  16. Sixth news item:

    This is literally spin, from both camps. There are a lot of cameras going, of course, and I’d like to think that videos wouldn’t be suppressed to help Biden. But then no one knew FDR was in a wheelchair ….

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  17. The House doesn’t have the votes because Rob’s link doesn’t show evidence that Joe committed a crime, nor does Comer’s pile of statements and documents. If/when real evidence of a real crime in office comes forth, I’ll support his impeachment.

    Paul Montagu (383f45)

  18. #13

    If there isn’t a majority of Republicans on the House Judiciary Committee in favor of impeachment with all the “evidence” they and the House Oversight Committee have uncovered, then the whole effort has been a waste of time.

    I’m comfortable with that argument. I think some of the whistleblowers at the beginning of the hearng were useful.

    Appalled (c3fd24)

  19. @13 @18: Those hearings are still useful, as it exposes ‘bad behaviors’ that otherwise wouldn’t have been known to the public.

    Case in point: the Benghazi hearing. While the outcome of those hearings really didn’t do anything to the Obama Administration… the information coming out really did a number to Hillary Clinton’s electoral changes when she had TS info on her home brew server.

    IF the only thing to come out of this current impeachment investigation is simply to highlight how the Bidens facilitated a influence peddling business… that’s fine with me.

    At least voters gets a change to weigh in on it when they vote.

    whembly (86df54)

  20. *At least voters gets a chance to weigh in on it when they vote.

    Jeez… can we get an edit button or no?

    whembly (86df54)

  21. Jeez… can we get an edit button or no?

    You don’t have one?

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  22. Just kidding.

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  23. https://x.com/MattWalshBlog/status/1800975768501334397?

    Should be front page news on any conservative site.

    The mental illness of this murderer rings clear. Why was this hidden? What was the purpose?

    NJRob (cfd33d)

  24. Those hearings are still useful, as it exposes ‘bad behaviors’ that otherwise wouldn’t have been known to the public.

    The only thing that has come out of the impeachment “hearings” is how little (if any) evidence exists of “bad behavior” on the part of President Biden. They either failed to include testimony to that effect, or descended into chaos or displayed H. Biden’s porn collection.

    Not very enlightening.

    Rip Murdock (3aaf7e)

  25. (An impeachment hearing) displayed H. Biden’s porn collection.

    In front of the “vaunted” IRS whistleblowers yet.

    Comedy gold!

    Rip Murdock (3aaf7e)

  26. I saw tq=wo banks which posted notices that they will be closed on Wednesday June 19, and now also the Brooklyn Public Library, I thought Juneteenth was a Monday holiday,

    In 2022 and 2023 it came out on Sunday and Monday, That would have been observed on Monday anyway,

    Sammy Finkelman (c2c77e)

  27. What bothers me no end are the cheerleaders for the two standard bearers. They are as bad as the demonizers.

    Fact is, this election is about an…excrement sandwich. And we will all have to eat one. Sad but true.

    The question is, how much excrement and how much bread on your sandwich can you tolerate?

    Simon Jester (e3c7b1)

  28. @25 Rip Murdock (3aaf7e) — 6/14/2024 @ 2:59 pm
    Sure, let’s ignore Hunter Biden’s former business partners whom, under oath, testified in Congress that Joe Biden was the “brand”.

    Let’s ignore the numerous shell companies the Bidens have whereby America’s enemies funnels millions of dollars to the benefit of the Bidens.

    Let’s ignore that there’s a Hunter Biden email directing everyone that 10% goes to “The Big Guy”.

    Let’s ignore the numerous suspicious activity banking reports, highlighing the sheer amount of money the Biden’s were getting.

    But, sure, the Biden’s are squeaky clean.

    :thumbs up:

    whembly (86df54)

  29. @28

    What bothers me no end are the cheerleaders for the two standard bearers. They are as bad as the demonizers.

    Fact is, this election is about an…excrement sandwich. And we will all have to eat one. Sad but true.

    The question is, how much excrement and how much bread on your sandwich can you tolerate?

    Simon Jester (e3c7b1) — 6/14/2024 @ 3:12 pm

    After being force-fed the excrement done by the Democrats/Biden Administration…

    GOP/Trump can’t be any worse…

    whembly (86df54)

  30. whembly (86df54) — 6/14/2024 @ 3:14 pm

    So what if Hunter (and James) Biden’s business associates “testified in Congress that Joe Biden was the “brand”.” It’s called influence peddling, and says nothing about President Biden’s personal culpability. If the evidence is so obvious and overwhelming, why can’t the Republicans rustle up enough votes to even draft impeachment articles for a Judiciary Committee vote?

    Neither Hunter or James Biden are President, nor are they campaigning to be President. The House Committees have produced no direct evidence of the President’s involvement, which why James Comer is reduced to sending criminal referrals to the DOJ (for Hunter and James Biden, not the President), in the hopes that a Trump DOJ will investigate.

    SAD!

    Rip Murdock (3aaf7e)

  31. Sure, let’s ignore Hunter Biden’s former business partners whom, under oath, testified in Congress that Joe Biden was the “brand”.

    Let’s ignore the numerous shell companies the Bidens have whereby America’s enemies funnels millions of dollars to the benefit of the Bidens.

    So in the other thread, you actually said we should ignore Covid response, because TRUMP, we should ignore his tariffs, because TRUMP, we should ignore the criminal convictions, civil fines ($500M), banning of his companies from doing business in NY, all for fraud and lying, banging anything with a pulse regardless of his marrital status. Things Trump himself did.

    But Biden bad because his kid may be trading on his name. Maybe you should remember the Donald’s kids were part and parcel to some of the fraud, and have been trading on daddy’s name their whole life too, but because TRUMP, nah.

    Colonel Klink (ret) (96f56a)

  32. https://www.newsmax.com/newsfront/justice-department-contempt-biden-classified-documents/2024/06/14/id/1168799/

    Bannon and Navarro in jail for the same “crime.”

    Being a leftist means the rules don’t apply to you and you can twist them to jail your political opponents.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  33. Bannon and Navarro are a couple of errand boys aspiring to be henchmen, while Merrick Garland is the Attorney General of the United States, duly appointed and confirmed by the Senate, and former Chief Judge of the DC Circuit Court of Appeals, ranked Number Ten among United States Judges and outranked only by the Justices of the Supreme Court.

    The crapweasels who held him in contempt in order to get Trump’s endorsement in their reelections are not fit to wipe his ass.

    nk (271437)

  34. Here’s an idea:

    There’s a debate coming up. What questions should be asked?

    If you favor one candidate, what question would you ask YOUR candidate about some position of theirs that you are uncomfortable with? Or are you just a “ditto”?

    If you are truly neutral (e.g. Rip’s declaration of not voting), what would you ask BOTH candidates about a common position of theirs with which you are uncomfortable? Suggestions: No changes to Social Security or maintaining protectionist tariffs.

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  35. — What is your name?
    — What is today’s date?
    — What city are we in?
    — Who is the President of the United States?

    nk (271437)

  36. The question is, how much excrement and how much bread on your sandwich can you tolerate?

    Come Jan 20th, 2025 we will all get to eat sh1t morning and night. The only difference is whether we will use our Left hand or our Right.

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  37. — What is your name?
    — What is today’s date?
    — What city are we in?
    — Who is the President of the United States?

    Reagan was asked those after he was shot and he got them all right.

    The Gold Standard.

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  38. Let’s ignore the numerous shell companies the Bidens have whereby America’s enemies funnels millions of dollars to the benefit of the Bidens.

    Let’s ignore that there’s a Hunter Biden email directing everyone that 10% goes to “The Big Guy”.

    Shell companies are perfectly legitimate investment vehicles. Every property I have owned has been purchased through a LLC; celebrities use them all the to hide the true identity of the purchaser.Again, so what if “millions of dollars” has benefited the “Bidens.” The question is whether President Biden himself has benefited, at best the evidence for that is murky.

    I daresay I could send an email saying “remember, 10% goes to Whembly.” But it doesn’t mean it’s true:: 10% of what, and what is the corroborating evidence? Do bank records show 10% of specific transactions being transferred or laundered through shell companies to President Biden’s accounts? Hunter’s email sounds like more an attempt to impress clients about his access to the President than anything else.

    The House Judiciary and Oversight committees have made a great case against Hunter and James Biden about influence peddling than any illegality by the President.

    Rip Murdock (3aaf7e)

  39. There’s a longstanding (40 years) DOJ policy not to prosecute high ranking officials in the Executive Branch for contempt of Congress when the president has invoked executive privilege:

    2007-former Bush Administration WH Counsel Harriet Miers and WH Chief of Staff Joshua Bolten over the firing of US Attorneys;

    2012-Attorney General Eric Holder over Operation Fast and Furious documents

    2013-Lois Lerner over IRS investigations

    2019-AG Bill Barr and Commerce Secretary Wilbur Ross over the 2020 census.

    Sources: here pp. 39-53; and here.

    Rip Murdock (3aaf7e)

  40. https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/iran-installing-starting-cascades-advanced-centrifuges-tensions-high-111117279

    Iran has started up new cascades of advanced centrifuges and plans to install others in the coming weeks after facing criticism over its nuclear program, the United Nations’ atomic watchdog said Friday. The U.S. called the moves “nuclear escalations.”

    Spinning up new centrifuges further advances Iran’s nuclear program, which already enriches uranium at near-weapons-grade levels and boasts a stockpile enough for several nuclear bombs if it chose to pursue them. However, the acknowledgement from the International Atomic Energy Agency did not include any suggestion Iran planned to go to higher enrichment levels amid wider tensions between Tehran and the West as the Israel-Hamas war rages in the Gaza Strip.

    The IAEA said its inspectors verified Monday that Iran had begun feeding uranium into three cascades of advanced IR-4 and IR-6 centrifuges at its Natanz enrichment facility. Cascades are a group of centrifuges that spin uranium gas together to more quickly enrich the uranium.

    So far, Iran has been enriching uranium in those cascades up to 2% purity. Iran already enriches uranium up to 60%, a short, technical step away from weapons-grade levels of 90%.

    Iran also plans to install 18 cascades of IR-2m centrifuges at Natanz and eight cascades of IR-6 centrifuges at its Fordo nuclear site. Each of these classes of centrifuges enrich uranium faster than Iran’s baseline IR-1 centrifuges, which remain the workhorse of the country’s atomic program.

    Tehran did not immediately acknowledge the decision. However, it comes after Iran threatened to take action following a vote earlier this month at the IAEA’s Board of Governors that censured Iran for failing to cooperate fully with the agency.

    While some continue to make excuses for the doddering old fool, we move one step closer to Armageddon.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  41. Bannon and Navarro are a couple of errand boys aspiring to be henchmen, while Merrick Garland is the Attorney General of the United States, duly appointed and confirmed by the Senate, and former Chief Judge of the DC Circuit Court of Appeals, ranked Number Ten among United States Judges and outranked only by the Justices of the Supreme Court.

    nk (271437) — 6/14/2024 @ 4:18 pm

    Some animals are more equal than others… except when it comes to the former President. Then it’s Orange Man Bad.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  42. We will know when Iran has begun to make weapons-grade material. Israel will tell us, either with words or with actions.

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  43. A suggestion: An amendment that would have the opposition party pick the Attorney General.

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  44. https://nypost.com/2024/06/14/opinion/of-the-51-top-spies-who-smeared-the-post-not-one-has-regrets/

    Nearly four years after 51 former top intel officials smeared The Post and misled the nation about Hunter Biden’s laptop, not one has any regrets — even though the FBI and Justice Department have confirmed the computer’s authenticity and federal prosecutors even cited it as evidence in the first son’s gun case.

    Indeed, the 51 “spies who lied” in a letter falsely suggesting the laptop report was “Russian disinfo” are proud of deceiving Americans, with a lawyer for some even calling their deception “patriotic.”

    No: They sold out their own credibility for a mess of pottage by intentionally misleading the public, and giving pro-Biden media outlets an excuse to dismiss and censor The Post’s 2020 election-eve scoop, as well as offering Joe Biden an escape hatch on the issue in his then-upcoming debate with Donald Trump.

    Again: A host of top intelligence community leaders effectively lied to the American people “for their own good”; after that, how can anyone trust any “information” the IC offers?

    And how does the IC justify all the billions the taxpayers spend on it, when its leaders manipulate the public instead of serving it honestly?

    Yet when Fox News asked, not one of the 51 even pretended to regret their deception, instead hiding behind more weasel words: The letter “only” said emails from the laptop had “the classic earmarks of a Russian information operation,” they pleaded.

    They lied to influence the election and wouldn’t hesitate to do it again.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  45. https://hotair.com/john-s-2/2024/06/14/maduros-effort-to-win-the-election-relies-on-abuse-of-power-n3790311

    A leftist hero doing whatever it takes to cling to power… by any means necessary.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  46. Egalitarianism is leftism of the worst kind.

    Justice should be administered to each person according to that person’s individual merits without regard to diversity, equity, and inclusion. People are not interchangeable. The lowest common denominator is dehumanizing. Anything which makes people fungible is dehumanizing.

    Even the Orange Man thinks he deserves special treatment as a former President and current candidate for President, and I agree with him. Where we part is that I think he is getting all the due individual regard he merits, and he thinks he deserves more.

    nk (4746ab)

  47. They lied to influence the election and wouldn’t hesitate to do it again.

    NJRob (eb56c3) — 6/14/2024 @ 5:57 pm

    Two things can be true. Yes, they were wrong to sign that letter, and yes, Trump is an authoritarian conman.

    norcal (c7f7e3)

  48. Even the Orange Man thinks he deserves special treatment as a former President and current candidate for President, and I agree with him. Where we part is that I think he is getting all the due individual regard he merits, and he thinks he deserves more.

    Some would argue that he should get more attention, but not in the way he would like.

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  49. Two things can be true. Yes, they were wrong to sign that letter, and yes, Trump is an authoritarian conman.

    So can three, adding that all politicians are scum. It’s just that some are more attentive to the Invisible Hand of the voters than others.

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  50. Let’s ignore the numerous shell companies the Bidens have whereby America’s enemies funnels millions of dollars to the benefit of the Bidens.

    Yes, let’s ignore the 250 shell companies of the family business, let’s ignore the 593 personal LLC’s, let’s ignore the billions of dollars funneled through the organization from foreign investors, let’s ignore the half a billion in fraud and lible penalties, let’s ignore the dozens of felony convictions, let’s ignore the other 60 felony charges, let’s ignore all of that.

    Wait, that seems to be a lot to ignore, and that only get’s you back to a failed president on job performance. Huh, but let’s ignore that.

    Colonel Klink (ret) (96f56a)

  51. Like I hinted in the preceding thread, you think you got a case against Biden, build it like Bragg build his case against Trump. Name-calling from the other side of the playground fence is for fifth graders.

    nk (4746ab)

  52. @33. This is a lie. Bannon didn’t invoke executive privilege. He didn’t show up and claimed “potential” executive privilege.

    Time123 (2d34e6)

  53. Time,

    I didnt claim he did. So you are lying by putting words in my mouth.

    Much easier to argue a strawman than defend your double standards.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  54. I expect an apology.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  55. I didnt claim he did. So you are lying by putting words in my mouth.

    No, but you linked to an article that did, and then said

    Bannon and Navarro in jail for the same “crime.”

    So yeah, you absolutely did.

    Gaslight much?

    Colonel Klink (ret) (96f56a)

  56. NJRob, I’m sorry the article you linked is lying. I’m also sorry you lacked either the intelligence or integrity to realize that prior to my pointing it out.

    Time123 (1f7487)

  57. They were all held in contempt of Congress. 1 is not being prosecuted for the crime. It’s clear as day.

    You two will continue to lie because it’s what you do.

    Carry on being yourselves.

    Mobys gotta Moby.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  58. Maybe one is a former federal judge who has no criminal history, one has a domestic violence conviction, a fraud conviction and a money laundering conviction.

    The other one ignored the subpeona, went on the TV and told morons that the president was claiming executive privilege, which a) Trump didn’t b) Trump wasn’t president. Was also ordered to return documents to the national archives, which he refused to do as well.

    Neither one had been a government official for years.

    Also, for contempt of congress to be a criminal offense, guess who has to vote on it. If the house can get a motion to the floor, doubtful, get a majority of members to vote to hold in criminal contempt, impossible, then by all means do it. Since none of those things are happening, the best thing to do is to lie to all the ignorant hicks and get them to try to convince other ignorant rubes.

    But that’s MAGA, biggest bunch of crybabies I’ve ever seen.

    Colonel Klink (ret) (96f56a)

  59. Well said Clink. The Modern GOP is based on spite. It’s sad really.

    Time123 (417041)

  60. Lots of squirrel and has nothing to do with why the DOJ is ignoring Garland being held in contempt by the House. But carry on carrying water for the left.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  61. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/biden-plan-undocumented-immigrants-legal-status-10-years-in-u-s-married/?linkId=469729544

    Biden continuing to break the law and act as a totalitarian, ignoring that it’s Congress who passes laws in this country.

    Now the usual suspects will come by and say that it’s perfectly conservative to do this and that you don’t need Congress or the rule of law to do so.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  62. Bills of Attainder are forbidden by Article I, Section 9 of the Constitution. The House vote to hold Garland in contempt has no legal force. It cannot have legal force. It can only be a recommendation.

    nk (2672eb)

  63. R.I.P.: Edward Stone, 88, CalTech professor and JPL physicist. He is survived by his creations, Voyager I and II.

    Edward C. Stone, the visionary physicist who dispatched NASA’s Voyager spacecraft to run rings around our solar system’s outer planets and, for the first time, to venture beyond to unravel interstellar mysteries, died on Sunday at his home in Pasadena, Calif. He was 88.

    His death was confirmed by his daughter Susan C. Stone.

    Inspired by the launch of the Soviet satellite Sputnik in 1957, while he was a college student, Dr. Stone went on to oversee the Voyager missions 20 years later for the Jet Propulsion Laboratory, which the California Institute of Technology manages for NASA.

    Twin aircraft, Voyager 1 and Voyager 2 were launched separately in the summer of 1977 from Cape Canaveral, Fla. Almost five decades later, they are continuing their journeys deep into space and still collecting data.

    Dr. Stone was the program’s chief project scientist for 50 years, starting in 1972, when he was a 36-year-old physics professor at Caltech. He became the public face of the project with the double launch in 1977.

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  64. Bills of Attainder are forbidden by Article I, Section 9 of the Constitution

    The House (and/or the Senate) has the inherent power to compel testimony by arrest and incarceration. The Supreme Court ruled on that a while back in Jurney v. MacCracken

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  65. I ran across this joke collection at Wikipedia.

    There are a few that I hadn’t heard before. And, for some reason, it doesn’t include one of my favorites:

    A Russian gets drunk and begins marching around Red Square, shouting, “Putin is a madman, Putin is a madman.”

    Naturally he is arrested, given a quick trial, and sentenced to eleven years in the Gulag.

    Why eleven years? One year for insulting Russia’s leader, ten years for revealing a state secret.

    Many years ago, I heard a slightly different version of the joke (fool insead of madman) told about Khrushchev.)

    Jim Miller (e42194)

  66. “instead”

    Jim Miller (e42194)

  67. The Modern GOP is based on spite. It’s sad really.

    Disagree. Frustration, anger and hate. A natural progression leading to the Dark Side.

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  68. Hate Trump all you want, it doesn’t mean you should excuse or dismiss Biden’s behavior nor his totalitarian actions.

    Hate liberals all you want, it doesn’t mean you should excuse or dismiss Trump’s behavior nor his totalitarian actions.

    DRJ (496584)

  69. I agree with what Rob wrote. I wish he could agree with what I wrote.

    DRJ (496584)

  70. Peter Navarro and Steve Bannon can’t claim executive privilege, only the president can do so. Navarro claimed that Trump invoked EP in a conversation, but had no written proof.

    In Bannon’s case he wasn’t working in the White House at time of the insurrection (he left in 2017). And Jeffrey Clark, representing former President Trump, told the FBI that Trump never invoked EP over Bannon’s testimony.

    In addition, it is an open question as to whether a former president can claim the privilege, as it generally applies only to the current President.

    Rip Murdock (3aaf7e)

  71. Bills of Attainder are forbidden by Article I, Section 9 of the Constitution

    Declaring someone in contempt of Congress is not a Bill of Attainder. If it were, it would also direct conviction and punishment, none of which appears in a contempt citation. Persons cited for contempt are then charged by a grand jury and on trial.

    Rip Murdock (3aaf7e)

  72. I agree with what Rob wrote. I wish he could agree with what I wrote.

    DRJ (496584) — 6/15/2024 @ 9:22 am

    I wanted DeSantis as the nominee. Still prefer him. Not my choice.

    NJRob (fa94ac)

  73. Correction to post 72:

    In Bannon’s case he wasn’t working in the White House at time of the insurrection (he left in 2017). And Justin Clark, representing former President Trump, told the FBI that Trump never invoked EP over Bannon’s testimony.

    Rip Murdock (3aaf7e)

  74. Rip Murdock (3aaf7e) — 6/15/2024 @ 9:24 am

    So if anyone left Navarro and Bannon holding the bag, it was Trump.

    Rip Murdock (3aaf7e)

  75. I chose DeSantis over Trump, too, but I still don’t chose the Fraudulent Orange Felon.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  76. So if anyone left Navarro and Bannon holding the bag, it was Trump.

    Just like all those J6 “patriots” that Trump didn’t pardon.

    ——–

    Of course if he had protected everyone else the impeachment trial might have ended differently.

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  77. Of course if he had protected everyone else the impeachment trial might have ended differently.

    Kevin M (a9545f) — 6/15/2024 @ 10:53 am

    LOL!

    Rip Murdock (3aaf7e)

  78. Assumes facts not in evidence.

    Rip Murdock (3aaf7e)

  79. Assumes facts not in evidence.

    “might” should have been your first clue.

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  80. 51 Worm tongues who penned and signed a misleading letter in order to influence the defeat of a presidential candidate hide behind nuance. “all the classic earmarks”. Which is why the rubes down state in the Walmarts hate them.
    Those people speak like the lawyers that spawned the first “what do you call 10,000 lawyers burning in the fires of hell” joke and then they laugh at – mock – their lesser marks- “I never said it was Russian misinformation, you are the one who fu-d up and interpreted that the way you did because you trusted me”

    The 51 have all the classic earmarks of unrepentant professional liars and I will be treating them accordingly

    steveg (6a1707)

  81. Little words like “all” and “might” are interesting.

    A word like “all” as in “all the classic earmarks” leads one to assume facts not in evidence, but “might” leads one to further due diligence

    steveg (6a1707)

  82. @82

    The 51 have all the classic earmarks of unrepentant professional liars and I will be treating them accordingly

    steveg (6a1707) — 6/15/2024 @ 12:34 pm

    …and those to championed these liar’s positions.

    whembly (a43e5a)

  83. LOL!

    The Vermont Republican Party is prohibited from backing a candidate with a felony conviction, according to the party’s publicly posted rules.

    That is now a bit of a problem, since the presumptive Republican presidential nominee was recently convicted on 34 felony counts.

    “The state committee will not support or promote any candidate for elective office who … is a convicted felon,” read the rules….…..
    ………..
    It’s unclear if such a rule will affect how Vermont’s GOP delegates vote at the Republican National Convention in July.

    Former U.N Ambassador Nikki Haley won all of Vermont’s delegates but suspended her campaign in March; she has since endorsed Trump. ………
    ………….

    Rip Murdock (3aaf7e)

  84. she has since endorsed Trump.

    Ignores facts in evidence.

    She has pointedly not endorsed. Saying she intends to vote for him, but that he needs to do things to bring her supporters on board is not the same as suggesting her supporters should vote for Trump. This is merely your spin.

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  85. Unlikely to succeed:

    …………..

    In a 36-page emergency motion filed late Tuesday, Steve Bannon asked the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit for a reprieve from a district court ruling last week ordering him to report to federal prison to begin serving a four-month prison sentence by July 1.
    …………..
    Bannon was convicted by a jury in July 2022 on two counts of contempt of Congress, for defying a subpoena for documents and a deposition. The jury took less than three hours to deliberate. Before trial, U.S. District Judge Carl Nichols barred Bannon’s anticipated defenses at trial, largely finding them irrelevant to the charges.

    The inability to mount his defense as he saw fit is what Bannon intends to raise before the nation’s high court should he get that far.
    ……….
    “He could not inform the jury about what actually happened — i.e., that he relied in good faith on his lawyer’s advice and believed his actions were in compliance with the law — even though this allowed the government to argue with impunity to the jury that Mr. Bannon had ‘ignore[d]’ the subpoena and ‘thumb[ed] his nose’ at the Select Committee,” the Tuesday motion argues.
    ………….
    In denying the defendant his preferred defense, Nichols, a Trump appointee, said he was bound by precedent that defined the term “willfully” in the contempt of Congress statute as “intentionally.”

    In early May, a three-judge panel on the D.C. Court of Appeals endorsed Nichols’ understanding of the “willfully” precedent — setting the stage for prosecutors to finally request lifting the stay of Bannon’s sentence, which the lower court obliged.
    ……………

    “If Mr. Bannon is denied release, he will be forced to serve his prison sentence before the Supreme Court has a chance to consider a petition for a writ of certiorari, given the Court’s upcoming Summer recess,” the motion continues. “There is also no denying the political realities here. Mr. Bannon is a high-profile political commentator and campaign strategist. He was prosecuted by an administration whose policies are a frequent target of Mr. Bannon’s public statements. The government seeks to imprison Mr. Bannon for the four-month period leading up to the November election, when millions of Americans look to him for information on important campaign issues.”
    #########

    The appeals court wrote:

    ……..Bannon did not comply (with the subpoena from the January 6 Committee and)—he knew what the subpoena required but did not appear or provide a single document. Bannon was later convicted of violating the contempt of Congress statute, 2 U.S.C. § 192, which criminalizes “willfully” failing to respond to a congressional subpoena.

    Bannon insists that “willfully” should be interpreted to require bad faith and argues that his noncompliance does not qualify because his lawyer advised him not to respond to the subpoena.

    This court, however, has squarely held that “willfully” in Section 192 means only that the defendant deliberately and intentionally refused to comply with a congressional subpoena, and that this exact “advice of counsel” defense is no defense at all.
    …………

    Paragraph breaks added.

    Rip Murdock (bc5e38)

  86. she has since endorsed Trump.

    Ignores facts in evidence.

    She has pointedly not endorsed. Saying she intends to vote for him, but that he needs to do things to bring her supporters on board is not the same as suggesting her supporters should vote for Trump. This is merely your spin.

    Kevin M (a9545f) — 6/15/2024 @ 1:45 pm

    1. The sentence fragment “ she has since endorsed Trump” is a quote from the article, not my comment (though I agree with it.)

    2. Haley has said she will vote for Trump. That’s a personal endorsement. Most of her Republican voters will probably vote for Trump as the party’s nominee; she won’t have to do anything to encourage them. The rest were Democrats who will vote for Biden.

    Rip Murdock (bc5e38)

  87. Sorry for the formatting. I miss the preview function.

    Rip Murdock (bc5e38)

  88. She has pointedly not endorsed. Saying she intends to vote for him, but that he needs to do things to bring her supporters on board is not the same as suggesting her supporters should vote for Trump. This is merely your spin.

    A distinction without a difference.

    Rip Murdock (bc5e38)

  89. As I see it, there are multiple levels of support, where “voting for” is the lowest level (which isn’t an endorsement), and “endorsing” is a higher level, and the highest is whatever the hell Tim Scott is doing.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  90. Bill Barr has been said to have endorsed Trump, by saying that given the binary choice between Biden and Trump, he will vote for Trump, saying Trump’s policies will take the US in a better direction than Biden’s.
    Fair enough. It’s not a universal endorsement of the whole of Trump although I extrapolated it out to mean Barr thinks whole of Trump will do less damage than whole of Biden.

    What about Jan6, what about….? Barr and Haley have experienced Trump in all his flaws better than 0.99999999 of US voters and still think he is better than the other choice.
    They have, by experience, earned the right to their conclusions. They know Trump as President better than I do by 99,9999999% because they worked with him as President
    I don’t know for a fact why some nevertrumpers need to tear those two down because of “Trump”, but I do know many cults or cultures coalesce around a belief they have identified beelzebub.

    steveg (6a1707)

  91. To clarify, “voting for” can just mean you think the other guy is worse, which is where Bill Barr is at. I take “endorsing” is a positive affirmation that the candidate is the best choice, not the least worst.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  92. Everyone not with us is against us and must be diminished, demeaned, shamed and expelled

    steveg (6a1707)

  93. 92. Remoras may or may not be afraid of the shark — who knows how remoras think, anyway — but they have no other meal ticket.

    nk (02745c)

  94. Im not sure why everyone is so defensive about Haley’s endorsement of Donald Trump; in the end it was entirely predictable. Trump knew back in 2021 this would happen: first “she criticizes me, (then) she uncriticizes me about 15 minutes later……” . She always been wish washy about Trump.

    Her decisions have always been based on what was best for Nikki Haley at that particular moment (and mostly wrong).

    Rip Murdock (bc5e38)

  95. Her decisions have always been based on what was best for Nikki Haley at that particular moment (and mostly wrong).

    See here for an example.

    Rip Murdock (bc5e38)

  96. Paul Montagu (d52d7d) — 6/15/2024 @ 2:34 pm

    We’ll see if Haley actively campaigns or fundraises for Trump. I’m sure she’ll do either if she feels she needs to get into MAGA’s good graces. I’m sure Haley fan club will try to justify it somehow.

    Rip Murdock (bc5e38)

  97. Trump’s personal flaws are an open book, but I don’t know for certain if Biden is the better person or simply the more guarded person. I lean towards the latter because the palace guards regularly lie to me about things as obvious as the President Biden’s steeply declined cognitive abilities. “Never been sharper”. The Presidents sons laptop and business dealings, “Russians!!!!”. The Presidents daughters diary where Dad Joe comes off as a creep who showers with his daughter- “FAKE!!!”

    I’m more suspicious of Biden than Trump

    With Trump if there was another former Miss Sodomy 2009 runner up affair lurking out there wouldn’t be shocked at all.
    More Real Estate financial statement license taken? Yes
    Crude sexual advances in his past Yes.
    The list goes on and on
    Does it bother me Trumps resume or in this forum, rap sheet goes on and on?
    Yes, but to use the rap sheet as a metaphor, I know what type of crimes Trump is likely to commit and the severity level.

    Bothers me more if a rap sheet is redacted and/or sanitized- Biden’s rap sheet is clean, but it is redacted and appears sanitized

    steveg (6a1707)

  98. The Presidents daughters diary where Dad Joe comes off as a creep who showers with his daughter- “FAKE!!!”

    That’s why the House Judiciary or Oversight Committees need to call as a witness to testify under oath (and in public) as to truth or falsity of her diary entries.

    Rip Murdock (bc5e38)

  99. need to call Ahley Biden as a witness………..

    Rip Murdock (bc5e38)

  100. In a timeline of the Trump presidency there should be inflection points that nevertrumpers can point to that damaged the country-

    4 years is a long time, so lets start with 2017

    2017 Trump outrages 1-10 via The Hill

    1. Firing James Comey
    2. Charlottesville
    3. Travel Ban
    4. Came out against NFL taking a knee
    5. Called Nork Leader “Little Rocket Man”
    6. Controversial condolence call where Trump was said to have said the deceased “knew what he signed up for” at some point in the call
    7. Indictments of Manafort and Flynn
    8. After Kristen Gillebrand caalls for Trump to resign due to sexual allegation against him, Trump says Gillebrand had come to him in the past “begging for money” and “would do anything for it”. Media claims Trump was using sexual innuendo. He denies
    9. Presidential Spokesperson Sean Spicer inflates the size of the inauguration crowd ” “this was the largest audience to ever witness an inauguration, period, both in person and around the globe.”
    10. Anthony Scaramucci

    steveg (6a1707)

  101. My inflection points are simple: Trump’s 2019 extortion of Ukraine’s President Zelensky and the 2021 J6 coup. The latter means Trump is no longer an option for me.

    DRJ (f65e25)

  102. I include in the J6 coup all the legal machinations designed to return Trump to office with no basis.

    DRJ (f65e25)

  103. 10 worst things 2018
    With the mute button on, the Trump presidency is a pretty good one from a conservative policy perspective. “Marc Thiessen”
    But:

    (my comments are in)
    1. Pull out of Syria will cause resurgence of ISIS (troops are still there and ISIS is here)
    2. Planned withdrawal from Afghanistan will go badly (actual ground did go very badly under Biden’s plan. Am assuming Biden had his own)
    3. Segregated migrant children at border (this happened before Trump with Obama and continues today with Biden. There are practical reasons for this)
    4. News conference in Helsinki with Putin (Trump fails to excoriate Putin over the attempted murder of a Russian dissident living in Britain
    5. Murder of Jamal Khashoggi Trump is right that a breach with Saudi Arabia is not acceptable, because there is no other counterweight to Iran in the Mideast. But it was unseemly to declare that “It’s all about ‘America First'” and “We’re not going to give up hundreds of billions of dollars in orders.”
    6.Graceless handling of Sen. John McCain’s funeral. “Trump didn’t like McCain, but when you’re the president, you must honor people you didn’t like”
    7. Drove away suburban voters (?)
    8. His misuse of power turned critics into martyrs. (Revoked former CIA director John Brennan’s security clearance and CNN White House correspondent Jim Acosta’s press pass)
    9. Offensive tweets continued to undermine his presidency. Calling former White House aide Omarosa Manigault Newman “a dog” and Stormy Daniels “Horseface” – among countless offensive tweets – is not just unpresidential, it drives away potential supporters who like his policies but then are reminded how much they don’t like Trump.
    10. Shithole Countries comment blew up negotiations for a deal that would have given Trump his border wall. He made a bold offer to Democrats – putting not just legal status but a path to citizenship for nearly 1.8 million young immigrants on the table. Then his comment undermined Democrats who were serious about cutting a deal and gave those who were not a pretext to walk away.

    steveg (6a1707)

  104. DRJ
    Those are good ones,
    I’m working on top ten 2019

    steveg (6a1707)

  105. 10 worst things Trump 2019
    Daily Kos version (I condensed the remarks and my remarks are in ()

    10. Trump lies about Ukraine call, lies about Biden’s Shokin boast*
    9. Packing courts with unqualified judges
    8. Kicked people off food stamps
    7. Placed gag rule on Title X (abortion)
    6. Tariffs
    5. Russian Conspiracy
    4. Relationships with international civil rights violators “Trump said that he gets along better with these people than media journalists. ”
    3. Abandoned Kurds (they have more or less an autonomous state now within Iraq and Syria)
    2. Ukraine aid scandal*
    1. Trump immigration policies. “This is how genocides start. From day 1, Trump has been laying the foundations for a genocide. We must stand together and stand strong to close the ICE concentration camps.”

    * Denotes points where DRJ agrees with the Daily Kos
    I understand if you have to explain a joke, its not funny. I figured DRJ would get it but am explaining it for others

    steveg (6a1707)

  106. Britain’s Tories facing ‘electoral extinction

    ……………
    The latest voting intention from (the polling firm) Savanta for the Sunday Telegraph shows Labour take a 25-point lead on the Conservative Party- with Sir Keir Starmer’s party on 46 per cent of the vote, and the Conservatives on 21 per cent.
    ……………..
    The analysis and modelling based on more than 40,000 surveys indicate Labour is ahead in 456 seats, with the Tories taking just 72.
    …………..
    Chris Hopkins, political research director at Savanta said the polling shows this election could be “nothing short of electoral extinction for the Conservative Party”.
    ……………
    ………….. Reform UK has recorded their highest vote share in a Savanta poll since party’s official creation in January 2021 with 13 per cent of the vote.
    ………….

    Some polls indicate that Reform UK can win as many as seven seats.

    Rip Murdock (dd5d29)

  107. 10 worst things 2020. Back to Thiessen because most pundits and outlets went whole Presidency at close of 2020
    (my remarks)

    10. Pardoned Blackwater contractors
    9. He vetoed the bipartisan National Defense Authorization Act. Trump vetoed $741 billion in military spending and a 3 percent pay raise for our troops over an unrelated issue
    8. Drew down Troops in Syria and Afghanistan
    7.Threatened to veto a Coronavirus relief bill
    6. Waited too long to shut down travel from Europe
    5. Fought with reporters during coronavirus briefings
    4. Reluctance to embrace masks cost lives (science is still studying this over multiple scenarios)
    3. Not dispensing vaccines fast enough
    2. Lost winnable election and then refused to accept results
    1. He discussed imposing martial law at an Oval Office meeting. The suggestion by Michael Flynn that Trump declare martial law and use the military to re-run the election in swing states is insane (Insanity claim understood. military people also have plans for the invasion of Peru. Peru still seems OK, martial law was not declared)

    Final Thiessen thoughts. (I believe the Georgia referenced by Thiessen below is the same Georgia where Trump faces charges)
    One of the worst things Trump did is not on the list because the results are not yet in: He has barely lifted a finger in Georgia to save Republican control of the Senate. He is so focused on overturning the presidential election that he could very well hand Democrats control of the Senate on Jan. 5 — and with it, unchecked power to reverse his achievements and enact a radical agenda. If that happens, Trump will leave the White House in infamy.

    steveg (6a1707)

  108. I really don’t care about private sexual practices or even whether they are cash-register honest. Neither one of those things affects what presidents do.

    If I have to choose between a forthright communist who is determined to bring us all to the collective, or a sleazeball, skirt-chasing, lying assh0le who thinks people should have the liberty to be skirt-chasing sleazeball lying assh0les (or whatever else floats their boat) I’m not really interested in what an honest man the Communist is since their beliefs should be an enemy of all.

    Yes, character matters, but other things do too.

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  109. 10. Trump lies about Ukraine call, lies about Biden’s Shokin boast*

    This is a problem, and shows Trump’s self-involvement.

    9. Packing courts with unqualified judges

    I read this as “judges to the right of RGB.”

    8. Kicked people off food stamps

    The law did that. Obama had told his bureaucracy to ignore the law, and not just here.

    7. Placed gag rule on Title X (abortion)

    There’s this whole big Internet where you can find out anything you want, even false things.

    6. Tariffs

    Biden enacted more.

    5. Russian Conspiracy

    Mostly made up.

    4. Relationships with international civil rights violators “Trump said that he gets along better with these people than media journalists. ”

    Please rephrase.

    3. Abandoned Kurds (they have more or less an autonomous state now within Iraq and Syria)

    Obama abandoned them first when he gave the Iraq victory away.

    2. Ukraine aid scandal*

    Repeating number 10?

    1. Trump immigration policies. “This is how genocides start. From day 1, Trump has been laying the foundations for a genocide. We must stand together and stand strong to close the ICE concentration camps.”

    Bite me.

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  110. 10. Pardoned Blackwater contractors

    Tough titties.

    9. He vetoed the bipartisan National Defense Authorization Act. Trump vetoed $741 billion in military spending and a 3 percent pay raise for our troops over an unrelated issue

    And what happened? They passed it again with that unrelated issue resolved.

    8. Drew down Troops in Syria and Afghanistan

    Obama called and wants his 2012 foreign policy back.

    7.Threatened to veto a Coronavirus relief bill

    Festooned with pork. Should have stood firmer, too.

    6. Waited too long to shut down travel from Europe

    But was nearly Hitler when he did the same from China too soon.

    5. Fought with reporters during coronavirus briefings

    Is there film?

    4. Reluctance to embrace masks cost lives (science is still studying this over multiple scenarios)

    Presidents cannot order people to wear masks. Not clear that governors can, either.

    3. Not dispensing vaccines fast enough

    I am willing to bet my house that he would have preferred to do it before the election.

    2. Lost winnable election and then refused to accept results

    Well, OK. This is true. Nor did he accept that it was his own damn fault for telling supporters not to vote by mail.

    1. He discussed imposing martial law at an Oval Office meeting. The suggestion by Michael Flynn that Trump declare martial law and use the military to re-run the election in swing states is insane (Insanity claim understood. military people also have plans for the invasion of Peru. Peru still seems OK, martial law was not declared)

    Which went nowhere, and could go nowhere. But yes, he was unhinged. He says he’s better now. I am waiting to see how well Biden transfers power to the would-be dictator if Trump wins.

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  111. I was going to list Pathogens and Parasites in Dog Poop (from sources across the web) but what for? You have your reasons, and I have mine.

    nk (02745c)

  112. https://www.rgj.com/story/news/politics/elections/2024/06/13/jane-fonda-jill-biden-reno-rally/74092991007/

    Nevada’s residents must be so proud to support Biden and this endorsement truly shows what he supports.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  113. Here’s the deal. This isn’t HR and and we don’t have the EEOC looking over our shoulder.

    nk (02745c)

  114. Here’s the other deal. Where Trump is not lackluster, he is cringeworthy. In his Presidency and in his entire life. Biden is likewise lackluster, but there’s exponentially less cringe. In his Presidency and in his entire life.

    nk (02745c)

  115. @113 Jane fonda never killed anyone and wanted us out of vietnam. My lai is on your side.

    asset (28ed5b)

  116. Rip Murdock (bc5e38) — 6/15/2024 @ 3:23 pm

    Nikki made clear that she’s running for his SecState, and nothing else, but I doubt he would consider her. Too uppity.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  117. CNN panel of 16 experts Top 10 Trump abuses of power

    1. Subverting the 2020 election
    “political coup d’état against our Constitution.”
    “His actions since the election have threatened the very existence of our constitutional democracy”

    2. Inciting an insurrection
    “This in and of itself puts Trump in the lowest circle of hell among America’s presidents, along with the likes of James Buchanan and Andrew Johnson”
    “Trump denies responsibility.”

    3. Abusing the bully pulpit
    ““Trump abused the bully pulpit to intimidate witnesses, literally bully people and spread disinformation. It’s never been done on the scale that he did it,” said Michael Gerhardt, a law professor at the University of North Carolina who testified as a Democratic witness in favor of impeachment in 2019”

    4.Politicizing the Justice Dept.
    “While most of these abuses were rhetorical in nature, he took some overt actions that triggered scrutiny from criminal investigators, like his 2017 firing of then-FBI Director James Comey”

    5. Obstructing the Mueller Investigation
    Mueller: “If we had had confidence that the President clearly did not commit a crime, we would have said so.
    Michael Zeldin “there were one or two incidents that were strong and prosecutable obstruction crimes, including when Trump ordered his White House counsel to write a memo falsely stating that Trump never ordered him to fire Mueller.

    CNN Fact checks Trump on saying he did not order McGahn to fire Mueller
    From multiple interviews with McGahn and others, the report states that after news broke saying Trump had ordered McGahn to fire Mueller, “the President … sought to have McGahn deny that he had been directed to remove the Special Counsel.” McGahn rejected this command and “insisted his memory of the President’s direction to remove the Special Counsel was accurate,” the report states.

    Later, in a conversation with McGahn, Trump asked, “Did I say the word ‘fire’?” McGahn replied, “What you said is, ‘Call Rod (Rosenstein), tell Rod that Mueller has conflicts and can’t be the Special Counsel.” Trump replied that he never said “fire” and merely wanted McGahn to bring Rosenstein’s attention to the perceived issue and leave it to him, according to the report.

    McGahn, however, understood Trump as saying “Call Rod. There are conflicts. Mueller has to go,” the report says.

    (“Did I say the word fire?”) (sometimes when discussing legal options with legal counsel they might have to explain to a layman that calling Rod and telling him Mueller has conflicts and can’t be Special Counsel may seem OK to you, but legally it could be construed as obstruction, so we aren’t gonna do that)

    6. Abusing the pardon power
    “I thought Bill Clinton abused the pardon power at the end of his term. But what we’re seeing from Trump makes Clinton look trivial in comparison,” said Diamond, from the Hoover Institution, referring to Clinton’s controversial pardons to associates and allies on his last day in office.

    7. Ukraine affair and cover up
    “This clearly looked like an extremely inappropriate quid-pro-quo offer,” said Susan Rose-Ackerman, a law professor at Yale University who has written books about political corruption.

    8. Loyalty oaths and personalizing government
    This is an abuse of power, the experts said, because it subverts the loyalty that Trump and his aides are supposed to swear to the constitution.
    “We only have a limited window into how much he tried to bully, manipulate, distort and threaten officials who were just doing their constitutional duty,”
    said Nancy Gibbs, a presidential historian and former editor in chief of Time Magazine who now runs Harvard University’s political research shop. (but lets not let that stop us from speculating)

    9. Firing whistleblowers and truth tellers
    Fired Vindman (nobody likes a smug self righteous snitch- well maybe George Conway does)
    Trump also removed inspectors general that uncovered wrongdoing by his administration, and fired Chris Krebs, the top election security official who publicly debunked his voter fraud conspiracies.

    10. Profiting off the Presidency
    Trump was the first billionaire to ascend to the presidency.
    Trump temporarily turned over control of his company to his adult sons, which he said his lawyers cleared from a conflict-of-interest standpoint.
    The biggest issue, the experts said, was the appearance of a massive conflict of interest. (appearance)

    Trump spent considerable time at his own properties and golf clubs, substantially raising their profile, and even making money from the federal government along the way. Trump’s company billed the US government millions of dollars, including for Secret Service agents to stay at his properties while protecting him. (Heaven forfend he stay at his own properties, all Presidents stay at their own properties. Trump’s happen to be resorts and hotels and he likes going to them)

    This was yet another situation where Trump skirted norms and benefited from the fact that the laws on the books aren’t really designed to deal with a president with his own global business.

    “What Trump figured out – the autocrats that I study, like Orban in Hungry, Erdogan in Turkey and Bolsonaro in Brazil, they all do this – they operate in this space where no law actually prohibits, but soft norms govern. And because there is no law, it’s hard to hold them to account. That’s how democracies collapse,” said (hyperventilated) Scheppele, the Princeton expert on failed governments.

    steveg (6a1707)

  118. on a local weather note, we have had nearly had 45 days of cool mostly foggy weather. Often with no clearing at all and some days where the sun came out at around 4PM and then the fog rolled back in after 6PM. Maybe 2-3 full sunny days, but they were very cool day.
    Yesterday foggy and drizzle. Today? Fire Weather and high winds. Neither Trump nor Biden can do a darn thing about it but only one of them says he can change the climate. Oddly, on this subject I trust the guy who has been said to have lied the most about the most of any President we’ve ever had.

    steveg (6a1707)

  119. Nikki made clear that she’s running for his SecState, and nothing else, but I doubt he would consider her. Too uppity.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d) — 6/15/2024 @ 6:24 pm

    Her foreign policy positions as she outlined at her Hudson Institute speech are diametrically opposed to MAGA’s world view. But I’m sure they can be placed in the closet if she was offered the job.

    Rip Murdock (dd5d29)

  120. Nikki wouldn’t let something like principles stand in the way of her ambition. She’s proved that her entire career.

    Rip Murdock (dd5d29)

  121. Former Detroit Mayor Kwame Kilpatrick, who was released early (20 years early) from federal prison by then-President Donald Trump, has formally endorsed Trump according to the Detroit News

    steveg (6a1707)

  122. Her foreign policy positions as she outlined at her Hudson Institute speech are diametrically opposed to MAGA’s world view. But I’m sure they can be placed in the closet if she was offered the job.

    She won’t be offered the job, and I’m sure she knows that, given where she made her foreign policy talk.
    No, she’s positioning herself for 2028, and in a different lane than DeSantis.
    I know you don’t like her, Rip, and she’s not my favorite, but right now she’s the GOP’s best post-Trump candidate, and she’s betting that 2025 will be the start of the post-Trump era, an era that Liz Cheney talked about when she said…

    “There will come a day when Donald Trump is gone, but your dishonor will remain.”

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  123. Ricky Gervais on celebrity and politics

    https://x.com/i/status/1799852947796308009

    steveg (6a1707)

  124. Nikki wouldn’t let something like principles stand in the way of her ambition. She’s proved that her entire career.

    There’s probably 500 posts here saying that, all yours. Talk about “facts not in evidence.”

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  125. Why do I find so many of today’s media celebrities to be aggravatingly insufferable? Here’s a clip of 57-year-old Anderson Cooper, scion of the Vanderbilt family, professing that he had until that very moment never before eaten a hot dog with mustard. What the hell is wrong with these people?

    JVW (6e6347)

  126. Happy Father’s Day to all the dads out there.

    NJRob (fb3ee0)

  127. Thanks, Rob.

    Nate (cfb326)

  128. “The Transfer of Power”

    There is always discussion in any election year of what might happen if the other side wins the White House. Such talk has been typically limited to Washington chatter and private speculation, as much of the energy has focused on helping one’s party win the election and develop wish-list policy plans.

    But the early timing, volume and scale of the planning underway to push back against a potential second Trump administration are without precedent. The loose-knit coalition is determined not to be caught flat-footed, as many were after his unexpected victory in 2016.

    If Mr. Trump returns to power, he is openly planning to impose radical changes — many with authoritarian overtones. Those plans include using the Justice Department to take revenge on his adversaries, sending federal troops into Democratic cities, carrying out mass deportations, building huge camps to hold immigrant detainees, making it easier to fire civil servants and replace them with loyalists and expanding and centralizing executive power.

    Ian Bassin, the executive director of Protect Democracy, said the planning for how to resist such an agenda should not be seen as an ordinary policy dispute, but as an effort to defend fundamental aspects of American self-government “from an aspiring autocrat.”

    “He is no normal candidate, this is no normal election, and these are no normal preparations for merely coming out on the wrong side of a national referendum on policy choices,” Mr. Bassin said.

    It is not hard for me to imagine an insurrection far greater than J6 challenging Congress to deny Trump the election.

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  129. “these are no normal preparations for merely coming out on the wrong side of a national referendum on policy choices”

    I really have difficulty believing this statement is in defense of democracy. “We had to destroy the village in order to save it” was similar thinking.

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  130. You don’t need a cannon to squash a bug.

    Even “caught flat-footed” in 2016, and with both chambers of Congress Republican, the Democrats more than held their own.

    Trump only knows how to run his mouth and the lickspittles he takes on to actually run things only know how to stroke him.

    nk (02745c)

  131. So…Trump has communicated that he’s objectively pro-Putin, the mass-murdering child-abducting terrorist, saying “it’s gotta stop”.

    Trump attacks Zelenskyy: “He’s the greatest salesman of all time … he announces he needs another $60 billion. It never ends. It never ends. I will have that settled prior to taking the White House as president-elect. It’s gotta stop.”

    If Trump stops the aid, Putin and cultural genocide win. It’s practically expected that the evil GOP nominee is on the side of the evil Russian authoritarian.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  132. I more expect that Europe will decide they cannot rely on America and to intervene to some extent. They would be right to treat this as the pre-war era and no longer “post-war.”

    Trump is forcing all kinds of re-alignments.

    And, atain, Trump will go too far and get impeached a third and final time as GOP Senators discover that there are worse things at home than crossing Trump. Their cowardice will be our salvation.

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  133. Fat fingers today.

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  134. Trump will go too far and get impeached a third and final time as GOP Senators discover that there are worse things at home than crossing Trump.

    I doubt the Senate will get the chance to vote on a third Trump impeachment. As you’ve said, the next president will have a majority in Congress, and I really doubt there will be enough House Republicans willing to cross Trump.

    Rip Murdock (dd5d29)

  135. So, Trump can round up all the “Mexicans” and their American-born children into camps then force them at bayonet-point into Mexico and the Congress will do nothing?

    He’s already talked of camps, and he’s already said he doesn’t think the 14th Amendment covers children of illegals. How far could he take that and still have America’s support?

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  136. He’s already talked of camps, and he’s already said he doesn’t think the 14th Amendment covers children of illegals. How far could he take that and still have America’s support?

    Kevin M (a9545f) — 6/16/2024 @ 9:59 am

    I’m sure Congress will either do nothing or pass the necessary legislation to allow Trump to implement his proposals. In a recent poll, half of Americans favor mass deportations.

    Rip Murdock (dd5d29)

  137. Americans will be fine with mass deportations right up until the agents raid their homes and take their housekeepers or nannies away.

    Rip Murdock (dd5d29)

  138. Rip thinks most Americans have housekeepers or nannies.

    How cute.

    NJRob (fb3ee0)

  139. So, Trump can round up all the “Mexicans” and their American-born children into camps then force them at bayonet-point into Mexico and the Congress will do nothing?

    He’s already talked of camps, and he’s already said he doesn’t think the 14th Amendment covers children of illegals. How far could he take that and still have America’s support?

    Kevin M (a9545f) — 6/16/2024 @ 9:59 am

    Why do say this like it’s a bad thing?

    Rip Murdock (dd5d29)

  140. Because … checking notes … because it is a bad thing.

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  141. Because … checking notes … because it is a bad thing.

    Kevin M (a9545f) — 6/16/2024 @ 11:34 am

    Apparently a lot of Americans don’t.

    Rip Murdock (dd5d29)

  142. Tim Scott just took himself out of the running as Trump’s VP.

    Rip Murdock (dd5d29)

  143. The June 27 debate between Joe Biden and Donald Trump will be simulcast on Bloomberg radio.

    Sammy Finkelman. (c2c77e)

  144. > He’s already talked of camps, and he’s already said he doesn’t think the 14th Amendment covers children of illegals. How far could he take that and still have America’s support?

    All you have to do is declare that the people who don’t support it aren’t actually Americans, and then you have 100% support.

    aphrael (1797ab)

  145. Larry Hogan is still not voting for Donald Trump despite Trump endorsing him for the U.S. Senate.

    Sammy Finkelman (c2c77e)

  146. Trump, in a meeting with House Republicans (but not in the meeting with Senate Republicans floated the idea of abolishing the federal (personal?) income tax and replacing it with a tariff on all imports,

    It is said that would require a 70% tariff, but not satisfied with that, the Biden Administration is arguing over 100%.

    Sammy Finkelman (c2c77e)

  147. The Thursday, June 27 debate on CNN between President Joe Biden and former President Donald Trump will be simulcast on Bloomberg radio (1130 AM in New York.

    Sammy Finkelman (c2c77e)

  148. Larry Hogan is still not voting for Donald Trump despite Trump endorsing him for the U.S. Senate.

    Sammy Finkelman (c2c77e) — 6/16/2024 @ 12:29 pm

    1) The kiss of death in Maryland-the endorsement will be in every Democrat campaign ad.

    2) For now-I’ll bet if it’s a close race Hogan will change his mind.

    Rip Murdock (dd5d29)

  149. Hogan could vote for Trump and get away with it. Who would know if he doesn’t announce it, secret ballot and all.

    Rip Murdock (dd5d29)

  150. Because … checking notes … because (mass deportations) is a bad thing.

    Kevin M (a9545f) — 6/16/2024 @ 11:34 am

    Why is it a bad thing. It’s called law enforcement.

    Rip Murdock (dd5d29)

  151. > Why is it a bad thing. It’s called law enforcement.

    How do you know if any specific individual is an illegal immigrant? You kinda have to stop and detain them and make them prove they aren’t an illegal immigrant, right?

    So … we’re talking about a large army of roving inspectors demanding papers from people based on … what, exactly? the color of their skin? the language they are speaking? the way they look?

    There’s no way to enact mass deportations without massive civil liberties violations.

    aphrael (1797ab)

  152. @153

    There’s no way to enact mass deportations without massive civil liberties violations.

    aphrael (1797ab) — 6/16/2024 @ 1:18 pm

    Sure there is…

    If they’re working, then the employer must ensure that they’re hiring citizen.

    If the employer fails to do so, then government can sanctions said employer.

    whembly (a43e5a)

  153. Whembly — can you connect the dots between “the employer ensures they are hiring a citizen” and “we know this individual should be deported as part of a mass deportation plan”?

    (Note, too, that I think a law which requires that I get government approval before I pay any individual for their labor is *already* a violation of civil liberties.

    aphrael (1797ab)

  154. He’s already talked of camps, and he’s already said he doesn’t think the 14th Amendment covers children of illegals. How far could he take that and still have America’s support?

    Kevin M (a9545f) — 6/16/2024 @ 9:59 am

    All the way.

    A nearly six in 10 majority of voters say they would favor, in principle, a new government program to deport all undocumented immigrants living in the U.S. illegally.

    (That isn’t purely partisan, it includes a third of Democrats. It rises to nine in 10 Republicans.)

    A similarly sized majority would have local law enforcement try to identify those living in the U.S. illegally, and just under half (48-52) support the idea of setting up large government detention centers to sort out which people ought to be deported.

    Ending “birthright citizenship” would require either a constitutional amendment or a reinterpretation of US v. Wing Kim Ark by the Supreme Court.

    Rip Murdock (6e5f95)

  155. How do you know if any specific individual is an illegal immigrant? You kinda have to stop and detain them and make them prove they aren’t an illegal immigrant, right?

    I have no idea what a future Trump Administration has in mind, but I’m sure they will have substantial public support for whatever they do.

    Rip Murdock (6e5f95)

  156. @155

    Whembly — can you connect the dots between “the employer ensures they are hiring a citizen” and “we know this individual should be deported as part of a mass deportation plan”?

    No, the employer’s only role is to be that “gatekeeper” to ensure citizens/legal resident are hired.

    As far as I know, there’s no reporting duty by the employer when they identify non-citizen/non-legal resident.

    I don’t think we even need to “round up” illegals for deportations. Just ensure that they don’t have easy way of getting legal work and most would self-deport.

    whembly (a43e5a)

  157. @156

    Ending “birthright citizenship” would require either a constitutional amendment or a reinterpretation of US v. Wing Kim Ark by the Supreme Court.

    Rip Murdock (6e5f95) — 6/16/2024 @ 1:30 pm

    Congress can pass a law stating as such. No need for amendment nor judicial fiat. (although, it’ll take a few years to be applied as NGOs will sue and will likely need a favorable SCOTUS ruling).

    whembly (a43e5a)

  158. Congress can pass a law stating as such

    Congress can also pass a law reinstituting slavery or banning guns. Doesn’t mean it will ever take effect.

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  159. Birthright citizenship is due to an incorrect interpretation by the Supreme Court. Congress passing a law clarifying it is much needed.

    We can start deporting every illegal alien that commits a crime and go from there.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  160. Birthright citizenship is due to not wanting jackasses to say that freed slaves aren’t citizens because their parents weren’t citizens, although they tried anyway. The only wiggle-room is children of diplomats or maybe people passing through airports.

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  161. Why not just declare citizenship is only for descendants of the Mayflower? I mean, if there are really no rules…

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  162. Congress can pass a law stating as such. No need for amendment nor judicial fiat.

    Under what constitutional authority? It generally takes an amendment to overturn an interpretation by the Supreme Court.

    Show your work.

    Rip Murdock (6e5f95)

  163. whembly (a43e5a) — 6/16/2024 @ 1:53 pm:

    Clarification to post 164:

    Under what constitutional authority? It generally takes an amendment to overturn an interpretation of the Constitution by the Supreme Court.

    Could Bruen and Heller, the Supreme Court’s interpretation of the Second Amendment, also be overturned by a statute?

    Rip Murdock (6e5f95)

  164. Birthright citizenship is due to an incorrect interpretation by the Supreme Court. Congress passing a law clarifying it is much needed.

    A 148-year old Constitutional amendment has been the victim of “incorrect interpretation”? Um, no.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  165. Trump ain’t deporting no more illegals than Obama did. He won’t even try. The hospitality industry won’t let him. Viva Las Vegas! The food producers won’t let him. The trades won’t let him. The licensees of the Trump brand worldwide won’t let him. Home Depot won’t let him. His kids won’t let him.

    If he does anything, it will be what he does best which is lie about doing something while doing nothing. Nothing about Putin, nothing about China, nothing about North Korea.

    nk (bb1548)

  166. https://thehill.com/opinion/immigration/4034157-why-birthright-citizenship-may-not-apply-to-children-of-undocumented-immigrants/

    Just like nuclear weapons are not covered by the 2nd Amendment, illegal aliens who deliberately break our laws to come here have progeny that are not covered by the Ark decision.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  167. > illegal aliens who deliberately break our laws to come here have progeny that are not covered by the Ark decision.

    If the argument is that illegal aliens are not subject to the jurisdiction of the US, and therefore their children are not natural-born under the definition of the fourteenth amendment, then it also follows that we cannot prosecute those same illegal aliens for any criminal acts (because they are not subject to our jurisdiction). We can expel them, but we can’t imprison them as punishment for murder, fine them for speeding, or otherwise hold them to our legal process, because they’re not subject to our jurisdiction.

    If you aren’t willing to agree to that, then you don’t actually think these people aren’t subject to our jurisdiction, and you’re trying to invent a distinction where the phrase doesn’t have its plain meaning, but rather some ahistorical contrived meaning that suits your political ends.

    aphrael (99fd6b)

  168. @169: Exactly.

    My only quibble with current understanding involves children born to passers-by and/or citizenship tourists. The idea of birthright citizenship is to ensure that the progeny of hose who live in our country are themselves citizens, even if their parents are not. People who come to have a baby but have no intention of living here themselves should be excluded as they are only incidentally and momentarily subject to US law.

    Children born in-flight over US territory, or in an international transit holding area are not ipso facto subject to our laws and should not qualify as citizens barring other valid factors, which I would narrow.

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  169. The items in 170, ARE currently part of US law and Congress can change them. Not so much things that are facially covered by the black letter words of the 14th Amendment.

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  170. Even for citizenship tourists — either they are subject to our jurisdiction while they are within our borders or they aren’t. if they *aren’t*, then we also can’t prosecute them for vandalism or drunk driving, we can simply eject them … because they’re not subject to our jurisdiction.

    if we draw in some arbitrary line that says that *some people* are subject to our jurisdiction fully, while *other people* are *partially* subject to our jurisdiction and therefore can be criminally prosecuted without their children having birthright citizenship, we end up opening a major loophole that will eventually be abused, because there’s no principled basis in law for drawing the distinction.

    aphrael (1797ab)

  171. Trump ain’t deporting no more illegals than Obama did. He won’t even try. The hospitality industry won’t let him

    If he does try, he might have support at first but when the troop are leveling whole blocks of North Hollywood (with attendant collateral damage) to go after armed resistance, support will wilt.

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  172. because there’s no principled basis in law for drawing the distinction.

    There certainly is: intention to live here. An illegal immigrant still intends to be an immigrant.

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  173. The truly fun case will come when a foreign national born in the USA to tourists is sent an income tax bill by the IRS. All US citizens are subject to US income tax, however (and wherever) derived.

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  174. > There certainly is: intention to live here.

    Sure, but there’s absolutely no reason to believe that this distinction mattered to the people who drafted the fourteenth amendment, which means the only reason we have for picking this distinction rather than some other distinction is that it’s politically popular today.

    It’s a line being crafted in the present and injected into the past because we want it today, not because it was actually there in the past — which means the amendment’s utility in preventing future arbitrary action is weakened by it.

    aphrael (1797ab)

  175. > support will wilt.

    Only among those who show themselves, by their reactions, to not be true Americans, and therefore worthy of (prison/deportation/etc) for their crimes against America.

    aphrael (1797ab)

  176. Real Americans will support the crackdown on Fake Americans, and that’s all that matters.

    [yeah, i’m being sarcastic here, but fundamentally this *is* the fascist playbook — whip up support against some tribe of alleged outsiders, bring the full force of the state down on them and on *anyone who supports them*, and use that to gin up popularity among members of the tribes that hate the targeted tribe. there’s no reason to believe it’ll play out any differently here.]

    aphrael (1797ab)

  177. If Trump wins and he isn’t too ham handed about it, he could leverage blue urban discontent with criminal illegal aliens and regain cooperation between major metro PD and ICE.
    Take a page from the host and deport criminal aliens first.
    Will Trump be ham handed- absolutely, but will he have learned from his last term? I think so.
    His ham handedness will work well when he is calling up (leveraging the hell) out of the nations that refuse to allow flights with deportees to land. Money will change hands in the right places, foreign aid will be threatened, whistleblowers will be lining up to snitch, but planes will be landing, deportees disembarking.
    If Trump wins, his success will be dependent on people hell bent on committing career suicide, but he still might be able to pull it off.

    steveg (152010)

  178. Sure, but there’s absolutely no reason to believe that this distinction mattered to the people who drafted the fourteenth amendment

    Nor did air travel. In 1865, casual transcontinental travel wasn’t even fantasy. People who came to America were going to be here for a while. We didn’t even have immigration laws at that point.

    We have always adapted those parts of the Constitution to modern times. Guns include weapons with rifled barrels, the press includes television and speech includes the Internet.

    Adapting the 14th Amendment to issues brought by air travel doesn’t seem so hard. Immigration and tourism can be separated. Intent is not hard to discern, we do it all the time.

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  179. My concern isn’t that intent is hard to discern, it’s that injecting the concept into something that is currently a bright line rule opens the door for abuse in the future – and those abuses are potentially far more harmful than what this injection is attempting to fix.

    aphrael (1797ab)

  180. aphrael (1797ab) — 6/16/2024 @ 5:26 pm

    Irrational projection coupled with biting sarcasm doesn’t complement you.

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  181. Real Americans will support the crackdown on Fake Americans, and that’s all that matters.

    I think you give the 0.1% of rabid haters too much power. I could make the same attack on the Hamas boosters, except that they WERE using that playbook. To them, everyone who didn’t support them was a genocidal Zionist even if they weren’t Jewish.

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  182. > Irrational projection coupled with biting sarcasm doesn’t complement you.

    Maybe not, but given that we’re dealing with a political movement that is happily endorsing someone who openly tried to steal an election, there’s no longer any basis for assuming that that politician, or the movement supporting him, will respect *any* lines whatsoever. The only reasonable assumption at this point is that there are *no* barriers which Trump or his supporters are willing to respect.

    I deeply wish that it were not so.

    > projection

    Really? I think my engagement over the years has demonstrated that this is an inappropriate description. But I guess it’s easier for you to accuse those who disagree with you politically of “projection” than it is to accept that your onetime allies have lost their mind and are no longer guided by any sort of restraint on their political actions.

    aphrael (1797ab)

  183. BTW, given the pro-Hamas nonsense and the vitriol expressed, I think that the Electoral count for Trump and/or his inauguration will be fraught far worse than the relatively peaceful J6 activities.

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  184. The Hamas supporters that are loudly denouncing Biden as evil incarnate are somehow going to disrupt a Trump election or inauguration? At this point the Hamas-supporting left would *prefer* Trump to Biden because, in their view, Biden is already an accomplished genocidaire, and Trump is at worst a potential one.

    aphrael (1797ab)

  185. The Hamas supporters that are loudly denouncing Biden as evil incarnate are somehow going to disrupt a Trump election or inauguration? At this point the Hamas-supporting left would *prefer* Trump to Biden because, in their view, Biden is already an accomplished genocidaire, and Trump is at worst a potential one.

    Nice avoidance. But there are similarly radical people on the far Left who will be 1000x more concerned about Trump than you are, and inclined to direct action. Antifa is if anything more active and violent than the Proud Boys ever were.

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  186. > But there are similarly radical people on the far Left

    Maybe, but you specifically named the Hamas supporters, so it’s really not avoidance to point out that the Hamas supporters are incredibly angry at Biden right now.

    If you’re going to level accusations at specific groups of people, it’s not avoidance to counter the accusations as applied to that specific group, and it’s goal-post moving and sealioning to immediately divert to some other group of people that weren’t included in the initial accusation.

    > But there are similarly radical people on the far Left who will be 1000x more concerned about Trump than you are, and inclined to direct action.

    Then, if and when the threat manifests, the Biden administration should use the bully pulpit to shut them down, and whatever federal officials have jurisdiction should arrest them.

    aphrael (1797ab)

  187. …but given that we’re dealing with a political movement that is happily endorsing someone who openly tried to steal an election, there’s no longer any basis for assuming that that politician, or the movement supporting him, will respect *any* lines whatsoever. The only reasonable assumption at this point is that there are *no* barriers which Trump or his supporters are willing to respect.

    Not only is this reasonable, but it logically follows actions by Trump and his followers that we have been witness too. To deny this is to remain willfully deluded.

    Dana (0f103e)

  188. The WaPo newsroom doesn’t like Bezos’ move to the center.

    Incoming Post editor tied to self-described ‘thief’ who claimed role in his reporting

    LONDON — The alleged offense was trying to steal a soon-to-be-released copy of former prime minister Tony Blair’s memoir.

    The suspect arrested by London police in 2010 was John Ford, a once-aspiring actor who has since admitted to an extensive career using deception and illegal means to obtain confidential information for Britain’s Sunday Times newspaper. Facing potential prosecution, Ford called a journalist he said he had collaborated with repeatedly — and trusted to come to his rescue.

    That journalist, according to draft book chapters Ford later wrote recounting his ordeal, was Robert Winnett, a Sunday Times veteran who is set to become editor of The Washington Post later this year.

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  189. The truly fun case will come when a foreign national born in the USA to tourists is sent an income tax bill by the IRS. All US citizens are subject to US income tax, however (and wherever) derived.

    Kevin M (a9545f) — 6/16/2024 @ 5:23 pm

    I’m sure most babies born of birth tourists don’t stay in the US long enough to have a job. They leave with their parents.

    Rip Murdock (6e5f95)

  190. Not only is this reasonable, but it logically follows actions by Trump and his followers that we have been witness too. To deny this is to remain willfully deluded.

    If so then he’ll be impeached. You seem to think that courts will look the other way and that government employees will willfully defy court orders, risking their jobs and pensions.

    Trump cannot do anything that the People will not stand for. Look at Nixon, who won a 49-state landslide only to lose it all with a FEW dumb moves.

    Even Biden has tried to go outside the law and nothing doing.

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  191. I’m sure most babies born of birth tourists don’t stay in the US long enough to have a job. They leave with their parents.

    And eventually they get a job in Hong Kong or Bahrain. And it’s ALL taxable under US law.

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  192. And eventually they get a job in Hong Kong or Bahrain. And it’s ALL taxable under US law.

    Kevin M (a9545f) — 6/16/2024 @ 7:18 pm

    First the IRS needs to find them to send that bill.

    Rip Murdock (6e5f95)

  193. Given that the Center for Immigration Studies estimates (as of 2020) that 33,000 babies annually receive US citizenship through birth tourism, it seems hardly worth it for the IRS to pursue them with tax bills as they grow older. This is a fraction of the number of babies born to illegal immigrants.

    Rip Murdock (6e5f95)

  194. Education time again after reading posts here. Who would be more upset with trump win. Left base of the democratic party or corporate establishment clinton/biden/dnc democrats? Remember the latter can only whine and gnash their teeth while the former’s motto is the same as Malcolm X by any means necessary so they can deal with the problems.

    asset (44614d)

  195. I’m sure most babies born of birth tourists don’t stay in the US long enough to have a job. They leave with their parents.

    And eventually they get a job in Hong Kong or Bahrain. And it’s ALL taxable under US law.

    Kevin M (a9545f) — 6/16/2024 @ 7:18 pm

    I believe that’s false. I don’t have time to look it up now so I won’t swear to it, but between exclusions and credits, IIRC most US citizens living and working abroad are more likely to owe U.S. income tax on none of their foreign earnings than on all of it.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  196. answer to 196 corporate establishment third way d.n.c. democrats with trump win because they lose their power and being discredited as biden shills the left takes over the democrat party leaving them to wander in the wilderness with hillary. The left does not have power now so they lose nothing and have every thin to gain in taking over the democrat party. Should be a fun fight!

    asset (44614d)

  197. Boris Johnson, having been born in the US, had to pay a rather large sum to the IRS, after he profited from selling a property in London. (He then gave up his American citizenship.)

    Jim Miller (20bc20)

  198. @169

    > illegal aliens who deliberately break our laws to come here have progeny that are not covered by the Ark decision.

    If the argument is that illegal aliens are not subject to the jurisdiction of the US, and therefore their children are not natural-born under the definition of the fourteenth amendment, then it also follows that we cannot prosecute those same illegal aliens for any criminal acts (because they are not subject to our jurisdiction). We can expel them, but we can’t imprison them as punishment for murder, fine them for speeding, or otherwise hold them to our legal process, because they’re not subject to our jurisdiction.

    If you aren’t willing to agree to that, then you don’t actually think these people aren’t subject to our jurisdiction, and you’re trying to invent a distinction where the phrase doesn’t have its plain meaning, but rather some ahistorical contrived meaning that suits your political ends.

    aphrael (99fd6b) — 6/16/2024 @ 3:45 pm

    “subject to jurisdiction” doesn’t mean what you think you mean. It’s not “since you’re here, you are impacted by our laws”.

    It means, what’s your allegiance or home country of origin.

    United States v. Wong Kim Ark was about something else, but that case had dicta (I believe that’s what this is called) that reinforces the current legal interpretation that is birthright citizenship.

    whembly (86df54)

  199. …sauce to post 200:
    https://constitutioncenter.org/education/classroom-resource-library/classroom/14.4-primary-source-united-states-v-wong-kim-ark-1898#:~:text=The%20Citizenship%20Clause%20establishes%20the,and%20to%20no%20other%20country.

    The Citizenship Clause establishes the principle of birthright citizenship, but there are exceptions to this general rule; the key language reads “subject to the jurisdiction thereof”; this means that the non-citizen must owe full allegiance to the United States and to no other country. “

    whembly (86df54)

  200. @195

    Given that the Center for Immigration Studies estimates (as of 2020) that 33,000 babies annually receive US citizenship through birth tourism, it seems hardly worth it for the IRS to pursue them with tax bills as they grow older. This is a fraction of the number of babies born to illegal immigrants.

    Rip Murdock (6e5f95) — 6/16/2024 @ 7:55 pm

    Honestly, most of these “birth tourism” are so that they can get the benefit of US passports. These are mostly wealthy families that travels, and having a US passport opens a lot of doors in international travels. I would wager that most don’t ever move permanently back to the US.

    whembly (86df54)

  201. @201 In other words… birthright US Citizenship was only barred, at the time, to:

    …only foreign diplomats, foreign armies and native tribes.

    whembly (86df54)

  202. Nice summary of the facts whembly.

    Time123 (4353a3)

  203. I dislike censorship, but I like both irony and stupid PPL being visibly stupid. (That last is one of the tiny pluses of listening to Biden speak extemporaneously. Not always with what he says, sometimes because he’s talking to random shrubbery.)

    The article below comes from a place I know well and hits all three.

    Book called “Ban This Book” banned in Florida School District. The article has a link to the school board meeting, but not transcript and I haven’t listened to it. I probably won’t have time to but if any of you serious nerds researchers want to do so and come back with additional insight I’d be in your debt.

    For awareness this is a chapter book written for readers 8 and older. That’s 2nd grade which is when my kids started moving into non-fiction at school and began reading chapter books. They read the Diary of Ann Frank 2 or 3 years later in 4th/5th grade.

    Alan Gratz’s children’s book “Ban This Book” was published in 2017. Seven years later, his novel for kids ages 8 and older is at the center of a debate over book banning after a Florida school district last month took took the title literally and banned the book.

    The Florida school district of Indian River County, home to the city of Vero Beach, last month voted to remove “Ban This Book” from its shelves. In removing the book, the school board overruled its own review committee, which had recommended that the school district retain the novel….

    Gratz said that when “Ban This Book” was published [in 2017 Time123], the most frequently banned books were works from series such as “Harry Potter” or “Captain Underpants,” [in He may be correct, but this was a quote of his, not a fact from the article and is worth some skepticism. I know there was conversation about that at the time but haven’t seen data Time123]with some critics objecting to the descriptions of witchcraft or attitudes toward authority….

    Gratz said…”The big theme of ‘Ban This Book’ is that nobody has a right to tell you what book you can or cannot read, except your parents,”

    I think this silly act of censorship is an outgrowth of the moral panic about gays in school from a few year ago. It was a silly panic at that time that went away once it wasn’t useful in fundraising and scaring ppl into voting for republicans. The remnants are things like this that will have very little impact on much of anything beyond censorious petty officials making the world slightly worse for ppl under their control.

    The article talks at length about the impact of banning on authors, which is worth a read if you’re interested but isn’t my main focus or concern.

    I post of lot of short snarky comments that aren’t really intended for much of a serious response and don’t take a lot of work, I type them with my thumbs. I’ve tried to put some work into this one since I do think free speech is important enough to merit serious discussion as there are often legitimate competing interests that need to be considered and balanced. In this case I think the school board got it badly badly wrong. This book as been out for 7 years. The impact of this book in schools isn’t a risk that needs to be predicted. It’s zero. we know that because no one has found any harms actually caused by this book, or even other like it.

    Time123 (4353a3)

  204. Hey my formatting worked ok and the comment is readable! Hopefully my spelling and grammar are likewise good. 😀

    Time123 (4353a3)

  205. I was told by a semi-retired diplomat that members of the Saudi royal family have also engaged in “birth tourism”, because they want a place to flee to, should there be a revolution in their home country.

    Jim Miller (99e7f1)

  206. What gets “messy” are those illegal aliens who discards their IDs prior to arrival.

    What also gets “messy”, is that the longer they stay here, the less likely their able to go back home, especially if they start having children here.

    There’s no easy black & white solution here, and despite whatever polls that favors deportations, when the rubber meets the road, actual massed deportations will be both untenable, legally challenging and will publicly be unpopular when enacted.

    Whatever else you may thing, simply stated massed deportations is simply not pragmatic.

    If I had the power to make proposals, I’d do the following:
    1) mandate e-verify to all employers. (this is to disincentivize illegal immigration for work)

    2) prosecute employers who flouts this law. (this is to disincentivize illegal immigration for work)

    3) work with employers who need temp laborers for simple work-visa program so that immigration-for-work is done in an orderly fashion, and they go back home. (this is to encourage legal pathways for temp work)

    4) prosecute NGOs that actively encourages illegal immigrations (a huge problem, yes that includes some churches)

    5) work with not only Mexico, but in just about every central American country to play ‘host’ to those seeking asylum/economic migrations. There’s a lot of juice to squeeze there and while expensive, should be cheaper than US hosting asylum/economic migrations while status is adjudicated.

    6) reform the pathway to citizenship, so that it’s not so arduous. I’m not advocating that it should be “easy”, but reform it enough so that people seeking to immigrate don’t just throw their hands up in the air and make the calculous that it’d be better to illegally immigrate than to work the within the system.

    7) At some point, give the remaining illegals a new form of permanent resident green-card with stipulations that they cannot vote in state or federal elections AND they must pay back taxes for last “x” years (negotiated by legislature) and to continue paying taxes going forward. If they want to participate in our elections, they must go through acquiring citizenship.

    8) And lastly, and probably most importantly – somehow encourage/enforce that English is the primary language for official government purposes. If we’re going to encourage immigration, then a common language is a great assimilator to US culture. (note, I’m not advocating that we ban other languages, just that official government business is ONLY in English with very few exception of allowing translation). I’m not sure this runs afoul to 1st Amendment principles… it shouldn’t, but I know there will be court challenges. The state should have strong “state’s interest” in encouraging English (and ASL) as the primary language for myriad of reasons.

    whembly (86df54)

  207. > prosecute employers who flouts this law.

    When grandma hires a dude at the home depot to help load her car, should she be required to verify that the dude is here legally, and what should the penalty be if she doesn’t?

    aphrael (49b982)

  208. > I’m not sure this runs afoul to 1st Amendment principles… it shouldn’t, but I know there will be court challenges

    It’s probably more vulnerable to equal protection challenges if people can’t access government services because they don’t speak English.

    aphrael (49b982)

  209. @209

    > prosecute employers who flouts this law.

    When grandma hires a dude at the home depot to help load her car, should she be required to verify that the dude is here legally, and what should the penalty be if she doesn’t?

    aphrael (49b982) — 6/17/2024 @ 7:29 am

    Is grandma in a business?

    No?

    Then, not that.

    whembly (86df54)

  210. @210

    > I’m not sure this runs afoul to 1st Amendment principles… it shouldn’t, but I know there will be court challenges

    It’s probably more vulnerable to equal protection challenges if people can’t access government services because they don’t speak English.

    aphrael (49b982) — 6/17/2024 @ 7:30 am

    Solution:
    Learn English.

    Publicly make it known to the world that this is an expectation.

    whembly (86df54)

  211. @205 Time123 (4353a3) — 6/17/2024 @ 7:03 am
    Can you buy the book?

    IF the answer is yes, then it’s not banned.

    Stories like this irked me, as it’s abusing words to connotate more sinister rationale.

    whembly (86df54)

  212. > Learn English.

    The overwhelming majority of immigrants do. English competency and literacy is basically universal among *second-generation* immigrants. Among first-generation immigrants, English competency varies, but it’s largely a factor of:

    * do working immigrants with families have the *time* to focus on learning English?

    * do retired immigrants have the mental capacity to pick up fluency in a new language?

    Refusing to provide services to people who haven’t learned English because of the two obstacles i’ve listed above seems mean-spirited to me.

    aphrael (99fd6b)

  213. > Is grandma in a business?

    Your original statement said *employers*, not *businesses*.

    But this just moves to a different problem! How do you define “business”? I’m reasonably certain your answer will be that it’s obvious, but for a law we need a specific definition because “it’s obvious” just leads to lawsuits when different people have different opinions of what it obviously is.

    The California Government Code defines it like this:

    > “Business entity” means any organization or enterprise operated for profit,

    So arguably the day laborer that grandma hires is a business, and if we change the situation so that grandma is hiring a day laborer to move the refrigerator she’s selling because she’s buying a new one, well, then she *is* a business by that definition.

    One trick that government regulators often use to get around this problem is to define the covered entity by number of employees, but then that also just encourages entities to creatively construct themselves to stay under the threshold.

    aphrael (99fd6b)

  214. https://x.com/elishawiesel/status/1799171563083702701?s=46

    My mother came to the US in the early 50s, after having been a refugee across Europe who narrowly avoided the Nazi death camps. She was a passionate Zionist, and upon seeing the racism that existed in the Jim Crow era, she quickly became a card-carrying NAACP member and began regularly attending civil rights protests.

    Our family is betrayed beyond words that the NAACP is asking the United States government to end its military of support for Israel. The Jewish people are fighting for our lives against an enemy that has raped, butchered and murdered our family members, and has announced it’s intention to do so again and again.

    Shame, shame, shame on you
    @NAACP
    .

    The American left is in lockstep with Hamas. Never again.

    NJRob (66760c)

  215. @214

    > Learn English.

    The overwhelming majority of immigrants do. English competency and literacy is basically universal among *second-generation* immigrants. Among first-generation immigrants, English competency varies, but it’s largely a factor of:

    * do working immigrants with families have the *time* to focus on learning English?

    They’ve made the time to illegally migrate… they can make the time to learn English.

    * do retired immigrants have the mental capacity to pick up fluency in a new language?

    Make. The. Time.

    It’s fundamental ask and frankly, not as big as a burden you’re making it out to be.

    Refusing to provide services to people who haven’t learned English because of the two obstacles i’ve listed above seems mean-spirited to me.

    aphrael (99fd6b) — 6/17/2024 @ 8:28 am

    Not my problem.

    This must be an expectation.

    We shouldn’t bend over backwards to those seeking to illegally immigrate.

    Learning English should be the most basic, of basic requirements.

    whembly (86df54)

  216. @215

    > Is grandma in a business?

    Your original statement said *employers*, not *businesses*.

    But this just moves to a different problem! How do you define “business”? I’m reasonably certain your answer will be that it’s obvious, but for a law we need a specific definition because “it’s obvious” just leads to lawsuits when different people have different opinions of what it obviously is.

    The California Government Code defines it like this:

    > “Business entity” means any organization or enterprise operated for profit,

    So arguably the day laborer that grandma hires is a business, and if we change the situation so that grandma is hiring a day laborer to move the refrigerator she’s selling because she’s buying a new one, well, then she *is* a business by that definition.

    One trick that government regulators often use to get around this problem is to define the covered entity by number of employees, but then that also just encourages entities to creatively construct themselves to stay under the threshold.

    aphrael (99fd6b) — 6/17/2024 @ 8:34 am

    My whole premise is to reduce the incentives that would want illegal migrants to come here.

    Mee-maw looking for some help here and there isn’t what I’m talking about.

    whembly (86df54)

  217. > > * do retired immigrants have the mental capacity to pick up fluency in a new language?

    > Make. The. Time.

    The issue for the 90 year old isn’t the lack of time, it’s the lack of mental ability.

    People’s ability to develop fluency in new languages declines as they age.

    aphrael (99fd6b)

  218. > Mee-maw looking for some help here and there isn’t what I’m talking about.

    So how do you craft the definition of the rule to encompass what you care about and exclude these cases you think are absurd, in a way that isn’t simply open to abuse by those who want to avoid the law?

    aphrael (99fd6b)

  219. > We shouldn’t bend over backwards to those seeking to illegally immigrate.

    Particularly when it comes to the elderly, i’m speaking of *legal* immigrants, too. My friend who is married to a chinese-american woman who sponsored his mother in law to immigrate legally — mother-in-law is *never* going to be fluent in English because it’s outside her capacity given her age.

    aphrael (99fd6b)

  220. * do working immigrants with families have the *time* to focus on learning English?

    IF they want better job opportunities they will find the time. Not speaking English is a huge disqualifier for many positions.

    * do retired immigrants have the mental capacity to pick up fluency in a new language?

    Only our insane system allows the immigration of the elderly.

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  221. whembly (86df54) — 6/17/2024 @ 6:19 am

    Based on your understanding, do you now concede that “birthright citizenship,” as commonly understood, cannot be changed through legislation but would require a constitutional amendment or reinterpretation of Wong Kim Ark?

    In Wong Kim Ark, the Court held that a man born in the United States in 1873 to parents who were Chinese nationals acquired citizenship at birth under the Fourteenth Amendment. The parents were ineligible to naturalize under the law of the time, but they had established “permanent domicil and residence in the United States.” The Court reasoned that the Citizenship Clause should be “interpret[ed] in light of the common law” and grounded its holding in the common law principle of jus soli or “right of the soil.” Pursuant to that principle, “every child born in England of alien parents was a natural-born subject, unless the child of an ambassador or other diplomatic agent of a foreign state, or of an alien enemy in hostile occupation of the place where the child was born.” The Court interpreted the “subject to the jurisdiction thereof” requirement in the Citizenship Clause to mean that the federal government could deny citizenship to people born on U.S. soil who fell within these two narrow, common law exceptions.
    ……….
    ……….Wong Kim Ark does not plainly address whether the Citizenship Clause prohibits the denial of birthright citizenship to the children of alien parents who are unlawfully present or who, while permitted to be in the United States on a temporary basis (e.g., for business or tourism purposes), lack lawful permanent resident status under the INA. Yet Wong Kim Ark clearly interprets the “subject to the jurisdiction” requirement to allow the federal government to carve out only the narrow exceptions discussed above to the general rule of birthright citizenship. Because none of these exceptions permits the denial of birthright citizenship based on the alienage of parents who are not diplomats, the case is most often interpreted as barring the federal government from accomplishing such denial through any means other than a constitutional amendment.
    ……….

    Source

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  222. When grandma hires a dude at the home depot to help load her car

    Did you know that here in New Mexico — where 48% of the population is Latino — there is no such Home Depot “hiring hall.” Why? Most of the Hispanic population descends from families here before the Mexican Cession. Illegal immigration is not a factor here.

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  223. The parents were ineligible to naturalize under the law of the time, but they had established “permanent domicil and residence in the United States.”

    My point a while back, and why I see the 14th Amendment inclusion stopping before we get to citizenship tourists.

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  224. Is grandma in a business?

    No?

    Then, not that.

    whembly (86df54) — 6/17/2024 @ 7:32 am

    Why should that be a limiting factor? Plenty of illegals work as domestics, wouldn’t the lack of enforcement encourage illegal immigration?

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  225. Particularly when it comes to the elderly, i’m speaking of *legal* immigrants, too. My friend who is married to a chinese-american woman who sponsored his mother in law to immigrate legally — mother-in-law is *never* going to be fluent in English because it’s outside her capacity given her age.

    aphrael (99fd6b) — 6/17/2024 @ 8:59 am

    She should be rejected.

    NJRob (66760c)

  226. The current immigration system prioritizes elderly dependents of current residents over the young and able-bodied. Coupled with the quota system, in many years ONLY dependents are admitted and young workers are excluded.

    Unsurprisingly, this leads to illegal immigration as for many desperate people it is the only option.

    Fix the law. While spouses and children should get priority, aunts, uncles and parents bring little to this country except expense. Favor the young who want to make a life here.

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  227. @223 Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/17/2024 @ 9:12 am
    No, I do not concede that.

    Birthright citizenship is an amalgamation of 14th Amendment, common law and judicial rulings (there are several).

    Congress can, and should, define how birthright citizenship should be done.

    Wong Kim Ark was a controversy because Congress haven’t, and still has not, pass laws governing such.

    Now, do I think that’ll ever happen? I doubt it, but the avenue is there.

    whembly (86df54)

  228. @220

    > Mee-maw looking for some help here and there isn’t what I’m talking about.

    So how do you craft the definition of the rule to encompass what you care about and exclude these cases you think are absurd, in a way that isn’t simply open to abuse by those who want to avoid the law?

    aphrael (99fd6b) — 6/17/2024 @ 8:57 am

    Start with any entity that has a business license or non-profit license.

    The other thing government can mandate is that insurance do NOT have to cover claims if business/nonprofit are found to have hired illegals.

    whembly (86df54)

  229. @226

    Why should that be a limiting factor? Plenty of illegals work as domestics, wouldn’t the lack of enforcement encourage illegal immigration?

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/17/2024 @ 9:17 am

    I would start there.

    Don’t be held hostage to the perfect.

    whembly (86df54)

  230. @227

    Particularly when it comes to the elderly, i’m speaking of *legal* immigrants, too. My friend who is married to a chinese-american woman who sponsored his mother in law to immigrate legally — mother-in-law is *never* going to be fluent in English because it’s outside her capacity given her age.

    aphrael (99fd6b) — 6/17/2024 @ 8:59 am

    She should be rejected.

    NJRob (66760c) — 6/17/2024 @ 9:24 am

    I’m going to disagree with you here.

    Let’s advocate for a little pragmatism.

    She’s not going to be fluent, but she’ll be able to “get by”.

    If she needs help with government services or the likes, she has her family to help with any translation issue, or pay for services to help her with that.

    All of that must be understood when endeavoring to move to a different country, and the host citizen shouldn’t be EXPECTED to pay for translation services, imo.

    The exception, which is current law, is when seeking healthcare services. I disagree with this law, but its a long-standing law that healthcare organization is required to offer translators when delivering care to those whose english isn’t their 1st language.

    whembly (86df54)

  231. I’m in an subculture where English is the second language. The first generation immigrants who are immersed in the subculture have English skills that vary considerably from minimal (some key words here and there) to OK. Very rare to find fluency This is because they go to work 40-60 hours a week with other immigrants and the language on the job has become-in this case- Spanish. The language at home is the same but varies. Varies because if there are school aged children, there is English in the home, maybe English on the TV- but if it is a household of young male adults who work together and are sharing an apartment, it is Spanish. Some of them will study English, but that depends on the level of education, quality of that education they got back in Mexico. Guatemala etc.
    Quality of education is important because we take for granted simple things like how to assemble and organize study materials. How to go about teaching myself a lesson. I used to wonder why these guys didn’t all have a dictionary. Why didn’t they make a “cheat sheet” of commonly used words like pala = shovel, terms like tape measure = cinta metrica (we say “tape” and they use slang “metro” but you get my point).
    If I take my education background to mexico, I take some pretty good skills with me. I buy a dictionary, I try to learn new words that I need every week. I study how to speak beyond the present tense, and I know how to look that up and how to find study materials. We take that for granted because it was granted as a birthright to us by our nation. The immigrant may, or may not have been granted a good education, in the construction industry at my end see a lot of bad to mediocre grades 1-5

    Finally, or maybe first, it comes down to IQ, the level of intellectual curiosity they have and temperament. The smarter guys climb the ladder and find ways to solve the English problem along the way, but their English is often very work-centric in the same way my Spanish is very work centric because I spend 40 hours a week talking about construction in Spanish and very little outside that. IQ doesn’t always come with moderate to high curiosity levels, but people that have that obviously do well at learning English.

    I’m leaving out the people who have that rare gift of language aptitude. My niece speaks multiple languages and dialects, she has a natural affinity for it, but she is also well educated, curious and motivated so when she goes to Kazakhstan to teach French and Spanish at the international school, she still prepares to learn the local language using skills she was taught in a good elementary school

    steveg (45f9f3)

  232. RIP, it’s very common to put a “floor” on compliance and reporting laws. It would be the norm, not the exception that an individual wasn’t required to comply with such law but a business that had a payroll of over 1 million was.

    Time123 (5562df)

  233. Whembly, what word would you use to describe an elected body telling a library they had to remove a book from their shelves?

    Time123 (5562df)

  234. One thing that would cut illegal immigration would be for us to stop buying so many illegal drugs from nations with weak (and, often corrupt) governments. The damage done to those nations by our consumption of these drugs should shame all of us.

    Jim Miller (23cd39)

  235. @235

    Whembly, what word would you use to describe an elected body telling a library they had to remove a book from their shelves?

    Time123 (5562df) — 6/17/2024 @ 10:08 am

    Exactly that… they removed a book from a library.

    I’ll agree with you that they’re over-reacting, but I don’t agree with loaded terms.

    Its like arguing whether or not what J6er did amounted to an “insurrection”.

    That’s a loaded a term.

    We both can agree that the violent J6ers deserves to be punished… but, using the term “insurrection” over-dramatized it to the point that people waste time arguing in semantics, and people loses sight was actually happened.

    whembly (86df54)

  236. @236

    One thing that would cut illegal immigration would be for us to stop buying so many illegal drugs from nations with weak (and, often corrupt) governments. The damage done to those nations by our consumption of these drugs should shame all of us.

    Jim Miller (23cd39) — 6/17/2024 @ 10:51 am

    So, we should what?

    Legalize all drugs?

    Go to war with the cartels?

    Need a little more what we should be doing…

    whembly (86df54)

  237. Let’s advocate for a little pragmatism.

    The first bit of pragmatism would be “don’t import old people.”

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  238. Removed and prohibited from buying another copy….seems like that’s equivalent to “banned”.

    Time123 (5562df)

  239. Less ‘definitionally’ here’s how Marshal University described what happened in CA with Huck Finn.

    2022
    After parent complaints about the use of racist epithets in To Kill a Mockingbird; Adventures of Huckleberry Finn; The Cay; Of Mice and Men; and Roll of Thunder, Hear My Cry, the Burbank (CA) Unified School District superintendent removed these titles from required classroom reading lists. Following a review committee’s recommendation, the superintendent also banned the use of the N-word in all school classes. The titles are available for individual reading and teachers can use then with small groups after the teacher has undergone training on facilitating conversations on racism, implicit bias, and racial identity. The district will also review reading lists every eight years.

    In response to concerns raised by students and parents, Of Mice and Men, The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn, and To Kill a Mockingbird were temporarily removed from the mandatory reading list of the William S. Hart Union High School District in Santa Clarita (CA). While the books remain in school libraries, teachers can no longer use them as part of their curricula. The district is accepting input students, teachers, and parents as they set criteria for what should be on mandatory reading lists. No timeline has been provided for when the criteria will be revealed or utilized.

    Seems like calling what happened in FL is consistent with the common use of the word ‘banned’.

    Time123 (4353a3)

  240. I’m going to disagree with you here.

    Let’s advocate for a little pragmatism.

    She’s not going to be fluent, but she’ll be able to “get by”.

    If she needs help with government services or the likes, she has her family to help with any translation issue, or pay for services to help her with that.

    All of that must be understood when endeavoring to move to a different country, and the host citizen shouldn’t be EXPECTED to pay for translation services, imo.

    The exception, which is current law, is when seeking healthcare services. I disagree with this law, but its a long-standing law that healthcare organization is required to offer translators when delivering care to those whose english isn’t their 1st language.

    whembly (86df54) — 6/17/2024 @ 9:48 am

    I disagree. It doesn’t benefit our society at all to encourage “family unification ” and is.just one more excuse to not assimilate and to come illegally and get amnesty.

    If you are coming here, it’s to leave your past behind
    Don’t forget that about 30% of Ellis Island immigrants were rejected and sent home.

    NJRob (66760c)

  241. NJRob, Where did you get your 30% figure? When I looked it up I got a 2%. Here’s another link to 2%, but doesn’t specify how they arrived at it.

    I disagree. It doesn’t benefit our society at all to encourage “family unification ” and is.just one more excuse to not assimilate and to come illegally and get amnesty.

    If you are coming here, it’s to leave your past behind
    Don’t forget that about 30% of Ellis Island immigrants were rejected and sent home.

    NJRob (66760c) — 6/17/2024 @ 12:17 pm

    If an immigrant’s papers were in order and they were in reasonably good health, the Ellis Island inspection process lasted 3 to 5 hours. The inspections took place in the Registry Room (Great Hall) where doctors would briefly scan every individual for obvious physical ailments. Doctors at Ellis Island soon became very adept at conducting these “six second physicals.” By 1916, it was said that a doctor could identify numerous medical conditions (ranging from anemia to trachoma) by simply glancing at a person.

    The ship’s manifest log, initially filled out at the ship’s port of departure, contained the immigrant’s name and answers to 29 questions. This document was used by the legal inspectors at Ellis Island to cross-examine during the legal inspection. Contrary to popular belief, interpreters of all major languages were employed at Ellis Island, making the process efficient and ensuring that records were accurate.

    Despite the island’s reputation as an “Island of Tears” the vast majority of immigrants were treated courteously and respectfully, free to begin their new lives in America after only a few short hours on Ellis Island. Only two percent of the arriving immigrants were excluded from entry. The two main reasons for exclusion were a doctor diagnosing an immigrant with a contagious disease that could endanger the public health, or a legal inspector was concerned an immigrant would likely become a public charge or an illegal contract laborer.

    Time123 (4353a3)

  242. #238 We should study what has worked — and what hasn’t worked — in other nations, and experiment to find tactics that will work here. (For example, British Columbia has tried harm reduction, and is now giving it up.)

    We should use our technological strengths to, for example, develop detection devices for fentanyl and its precursors.

    Jim Miller (291f38)

  243. RIP, it’s very common to put a “floor” on compliance and reporting laws. It would be the norm, not the exception that an individual wasn’t required to comply with such law but a business that had a payroll of over 1 million was.

    Time123 (5562df) — 6/17/2024 @ 10:07 am

    So I guess the dozens of (probably) illegals I see on the weekends hanging out on the sidewalk at my local Home Depot and U-Haul are safe. Good to know.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  244. I don’t understand why so many here are opposed to strict enforcement of the immigration laws. Enforcement should not be pleasant.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  245. I want to open by saying I hope Hunter Biden stays sober and lives a happy joyful life. Smart people- even the smartest person Joe Biden knows- do dumb things

    “Hunter Biden had narrated the audiobook version, and prosecutors played portions of it in court, allowing jurors to hear the defendant in his own words discussing his use of crack cocaine during the same period as the gun purchase. That undermined Biden’s argument that he didn’t knowingly violate federal prohibitions on drug users owning firearms.”

    Was he sober when he did the reading for the audiobook? There goes the MENSA application, “6 years of college down the drain”

    And to think I laughed at rappers who recorded themselves freestyling details of crimes. “come on man!”

    steveg (45f9f3)

  246. It’s one thing to enforce them at the border, or soon after an illegal entry. It’s quite another to enforce them after 20 years of residency, building a life with the reasonable expectation that the law would never be enforced.

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  247. 246. Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/17/2024 @ 1:17 pm

    I don’t understand why so many here are opposed to strict enforcement of the immigration laws. Enforcement should not be pleasant.

    How about this reason:

    https://www.newser.com/story/351782/report-greek-coast-guard-left-migrants-to-die.html

    Report: Greek Coast Guard Threw Migrants Into Sea

    BBC says it has analyzed more than a dozen disturbing incidents

    The Greek coast guard caused the deaths of dozens of migrants by turning them back in leaky boats or even throwing them into the sea, according to a BBC investigation. The BBC says it looked at 15 incidents from 2020 to 2023 that resulted in 43 deaths and spoke to a handful of survivors. One Somalian man said three people in his group died after they reached the island of Chios and the military handed them over to the coast guard. “They threw me zip-tied in the middle of the sea. They wanted me to die,” he said. The man said he managed to float on his back until he was rescued by the Turkish coast guard.

    “They heard us all screaming, and yet they still left us.” The BBC says the incident with the largest loss of life occurred after the motor cut out on a boat carrying 85 migrants off the coast of Rhodes. A Syrian man says they called the Greek coast guard, which took them to Turkish waters and put them in life rafts. He says a valve on his life raft wasn’t properly closed and at least eight members of his group died, including his children. “We immediately began to sink, they saw that,” he said. “They heard us all screaming, and yet they still left us.”

    Of course, Donald Trump (or the Democrats) wouldn;t do this.

    They’d outsource it to Mexico and other countries and pay them to do this.

    The Biden Administration already has gone easy or considered going easy on Venezuela in an attempt to gain co-operation.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-01-30/venezuela-to-stop-accepting-us-deportees-if-sanctions-renewed

    https://medium.com/the-diplomatic-pouch/analysis-american-sanctions-eased-venezuelan-migration-increased-2a7a76e10946

    Strict enforcement of immigration law destroys every other human value.

    (but it seems the Biden Administration is incompetent even at amorality.)

    Sammy Finkelman (e4ef09)

  248. steveg (45f9f3) — 6/17/2024 @ 1:31 pm

    And to think I laughed at rappers who recorded themselves freestyling details of crimes. “come on man!

    When Hunter Biden recorded that audiobook, he never expected to be prosecuted – and he (and/or his legal and political advisers) wanted the focus to be on the drug use – which he freely confessed to and maybe even exaggerated – to excuse everything else.

    Sammy Finkelman (e4ef09)

  249. 246. Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/17/2024 @ 1:17 pm

    I don’t understand why so many here are opposed to strict enforcement of the immigration laws. Enforcement should not be pleasant.

    How about this reason:

    Report: Greek Coast Guard Threw Migrants Into Sea

    I really don’t think even the Trump administration would ship immigrants out to see and feed them to the sharks.

    What evidence is there that Mexico would do that to its own citizens?

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  250. It’s one thing to enforce them at the border, or soon after an illegal entry. It’s quite another to enforce them after 20 years of residency, building a life with the reasonable expectation that the law would never be enforced.

    Kevin M (a9545f) — 6/17/2024 @ 1:34 pm

    Sounds like a Democrat talking point.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  251. It’s one thing to enforce them at the border, or soon after an illegal entry. It’s quite another to enforce them after 20 years of residency, building a life with the reasonable expectation that the law would never be enforced.

    Kevin M (a9545f) — 6/17/2024 @ 1:34 pm

    Lack of enforcement doesn’t create an implied contract that it won’t happen in the future.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  252. Lack of enforcement doesn’t create an implied contract that it won’t happen in the future.

    It does to people with souls.

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  253. SAD!

    ……….
    Instead of a minimal-security prison camp, where many nonviolent offenders serve their time, Steve Bannon – now a right-wing podcaster with a following of loyal Trump supporters – is set to report next month to the low-security federal prison in Danbury, Connecticut, one of the sources told CNN.
    ………..
    ………..Bannon isn’t eligible for the lowest-level prison setup because he still has a pending criminal case against him in New York, where he is fighting the charges and set to go to trial in September. That case accuses him of defrauding donors in a fundraising effort branded the “We Build the Wall” campaign for a border wall between the US and Mexico.
    ………..
    The prison in Connecticut where Bannon will live houses a large number of white-collar criminals, but it also may house violent and sex offenders in its men’s population.

    It doesn’t have cells, and instead houses its inmates in open pods. Yet it does have a noticeable barrier — referred to colloquially as “the wall” — between the prison facility and the outside world, which prison camps don’t have.

    More than 1,000 male prisoners are in the Danbury facility. Its much smaller adjacent prison camp for women was immortalized in a former prisoner’s memoir that inspired the TV show “Orange is the New Black.”
    ……….
    His time in federal prison is likely to run through October if no appeals court intervenes, the person said.
    ……….

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  254. Congress has a duty to address immigration in a strategic manner, they’ve punted for generations. This as lead to the executive branch playing whackamole on what to do where and how. Banning poor people at the border, doesn’t just mean turning them down, but housing and re-housing them till they get sent home. Every story starts with sorrow and potentially ends in tragedy. Most of the US’s history with immigration was to convince people to come, heck, we were bribing them with 160 acres till the late 1850’s. It really started probably in the 60s and really became a polyanna at least in the 80’s and 90’s.

    It’s going to be complicated, so guess who I doubt will be putting up much of an effort.

    Colonel Klink (ret) (96f56a)

  255. Lack of enforcement doesn’t create an implied contract that it won’t happen in the future.

    It does to people with souls.

    Kevin M (a9545f) — 6/17/2024 @ 2:20 pm

    Where in immigration law does it make an exception to enforcement for persons that resided here for more than X years? I recall you saying in the past that laws on the books should be enforced “good and hard,” no matter what the impact would be. Going soft?

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  256. The NY Senate primary was cancelled. No contest. In fact no voting for anything where I live.

    Sammy Finkelman (e4ef09)

  257. Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/17/2024 @ 2:33 pm

    Where in immigration law does it make an exception to enforcement for persons that resided here for more than X years?

    Many people would like that, but it doesn’t thanks to a OPR campaign that has been going on for 50 years . They used to pass amnesties. The last was in 1986.

    There do exist hardship deferments, because if it didn’t the law would probably standardize it.

    Sammy Finkelman (e4ef09)

  258. CNN panel of 16 experts Top 10 Trump abuses of power

    1. Subverting the 2020 election
    “political coup d’état against our Constitution.”

    A coup in search if a legal theory one judge called it,

    “His actions since the election have threatened the very existence of our constitutional democracy”

    We’re not there yet. He would have to get 2/3 of Republican elected officials to go against the constitution (since Democrats occupy offices too)

    2. Inciting an insurrection
    “This in and of itself puts Trump in the lowest circle of hell among America’s presidents, along with the likes of James Buchanan and Andrew Johnson”

    He did not incite an insurrection or even a riot. Although the second impeachment resolution claims that.

    Sammy Finkelman (c2c77e)

  259. Why is it not surprising that Trump’s former “spiritual advisor” is a pedo.

    Morris told the Christian Post: “In March of 1987, this situation was brought to light, and it was confessed and repented of. I submitted myself to the Elders of Shady Grove Church and the young lady’s father. They asked me to step out of ministry and receive counseling and freedom ministry, which I did.”

    Despite his admission, Morris will continue to be a primary speaker at the church on weekends and his son, James Morris, will assume his father’s senior pastor duties next year.

    Morris was never criminally charged and by the time his accuser decided to explore legal action, she was advised the statute of limitations for criminal or civil action had probably expired.

    Of course he didn’t get kicked out of the church, nor charged.

    There’s probably no video of them being together. Anytime a megachurch pastor wants to be your friend, run away screaming.

    Colonel Klink (ret) (96f56a)

  260. Traditional trump family values pedo!

    asset (e3f804)

  261. Anytime a megachurch pastor wants to be your friend, run away screaming.

    This appears to be a common bigotry among Democrats and if you want to know why evangelicals support Trump, look no farther.

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  262. Another criminal alien rapes and murders. Crickets from the usual suspects.

    NJRob (66760c)

  263. This appears to be a common bigotry among sane people and if you want to know why child rapists support Trump, look no farther.

    Accuracy matters.

    Colonel Klink (ret) (96f56a)

  264. Klink nonresponsive to Kevin’s accurate remarks, but he takes the side of radical leftist asset.

    So conservative of him.

    NJRob (66760c)

  265. As you and Kevin say, I’m against child rape. Now, you could have said wow, child rape bad, but you didn’t.

    So by your logic, your lack of comment against child rape must mean that MAGAts and the GOP are 100% pro child rape.

    Colonel Klink (ret) (96f56a)

  266. @245, No, they’re probably breaking the law and could be prosected for that. It’s also likely that anyone hiring them is breaking the law as well. But if you’re going to create a policy that requires compliance reporting it’s a good idea to set it up so that it can be followed. A roofer that hires 3 day laborers when he has a big job likely has no real way to comply with verification requirements, a golf club with a large grounds crew, kitchen staff, and cleaning staff likely can. Write the law such that it can possible be enforced.

    I’m not opposed to strict enforcement of sensible laws. To me that means it’s possible to follow them and there’s some consistency in their prosecution. What we don’t want is arbitrary and harsh application of laws that are obviously not possible to follow.

    We also need enforcement to be ‘just’ and not have correcting one wrong (someone being in the country illegally) result in the creation of another wrong, bankrupting / incarcerating someone for not following reporting rules that have no means of following.

    Time123 (4353a3)

  267. > This appears to be a common bigotry among Democrats and if you want to know why evangelicals support Trump, look no farther.

    Is it really different from the common bigotry among evangelicals that gay men are just groomers out to molest children, so you should keep gays away from your kids at all costs?

    aphrael (99fd6b)

  268. @247, Buddy you and I have a very similar sense of humor. 😀

    Time123 (4353a3)

  269. @254 Kevin and Rip, as I said before, we don’t want laws that fix one injustice by creating another. When that is the result of the application of law we probably need a different law. If we don’t get one we see reluctance to apply the law which weakens the rule of law in general.

    Time123 (4353a3)

  270. NJRob is right, Evangelicals support Trump in large part because they feel disrespected and believe that voting for him allows them to send a message of disrespect to a self styled elite that has shown them contempt and disrespect.

    To send this message they’ve abandoned many of the values they used to hold dear, or at least claimed to hold dear, and become another cultural tribe, less and less moored to the teachings of Christ.

    Time123 (4353a3)

  271. But if you’re going to create a policy that requires compliance reporting it’s a good idea to set it up so that it can be followed. A roofer that hires 3 day laborers when he has a big job likely has no real way to comply with verification requirements, a golf club with a large grounds crew, kitchen staff, and cleaning staff likely can. Write the law such that it can possible be enforced.

    Make all the excuses you want but there is an easy way to comply with the law, it’s called E-Verify.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  272. I will note though that Klink said Mega Church pastor, and not evangelical.

    Time123 (4353a3)

  273. Colonel Klink (ret) (96f56a) — 6/17/2024 @ 5:00 pm

    Doubling down on bigotry. If it was 1933, this would be about Jews and usury.

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  274. As you and Kevin say, I’m against child rape. Now, you could have said wow, child rape bad, but you didn’t.

    No, I didn’t say that because it goes without saying. Projecting child rape onto megachurch pastors is a far different thing. BTW, do you have a second example?

    Once could just as accurately have said “Democrat politicians”:

    Arizona Democrat Convicted on Child Sex Abuse Charge

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  275. To send this message they’ve abandoned many of the values they used to hold dear, or at least claimed to hold dear, and become another cultural tribe, less and less moored to the teachings of Christ.

    It’s something going around. Biden’s support comes from people who’ve mostly abandoned the things they used to care about, and Trump supporters much the same (e.g. balanced budgets and peace through strength).

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  276. Off-topic:

    TIME Magazine jumps the shark:

    Homelander: Superhero of the Year

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  277. Col.

    From the article you linked, it looks like the father of the girl and the church decided to handle it internally.
    That is very typical. The protocol followed is as described in the article. The “sinner” is supposed to bring themself and their sin(s) to the Elders of the Church and the offended party. The “sinner” is supposed to leave all leadership positions (which was done according to the article). The church and the offended party then agree on if the ‘sinner” gets thrown out of the Church which happens, but is rare because repentance and forgiveness are a big part of Christianity. If the “sinner” is allowed to stay in the church, there is usually classes, readings, counseling etc like we see were done in the article. Its kind of like the probation and diversion programs secular institutions like the courts use for drug, alcohol, domestic violence etc. Morris was probably put on a pretty short leash probation with a pretty heavy load of religious stuff to do. The guy claims he’s told everyone all along the way for the past 35 years, and churches aren’t going to crucify him for it now
    Judeo Christian literature is full of spiritual leaders, the real chore is finding one without a checkered past.

    I do not attend church and mega churches are not my preferred place to worship, but in 2014 it was estimated by USC Center for Religion and Civic Culture that 765,000 Californians attended megachurches every Sunday.

    It is hard to say if mega church pastors are more prone to flaming out than regular pastors, or if it simply is more sensational when they do. In any case this is sort of the reverse of the usual way scandals work.
    They keys here are:
    No cover up
    Sin brought to Church and to offended party
    Church protocol followed
    Rehabilitative protocols followed

    As far as the Church is concerned you are forgiven, but expected to continue forward aware. It is very much like the awareness of an alcoholic 35 years sober. Aware, but sobriety is the way of life now

    The woman involved says she forgives the man, but she thinks he should have gotten a lifetime ban from church leadership. I see her point, but 35 years ago, this is textbook how it was done and here we are now and unless someone(s) come out of the shadows with new stories, the dad and the church elders have to call it a win.

    steveg (45f9f3)

  278. Oh, I know this is “church policy”, still doesn’t mean that there shouldn’t have been a single moral person to said f-that and went straight to the police.

    Covering up child rape makes you a scumbag. She was 12, the elders and her family covering it just makes them scumbags too.

    Colonel Klink (ret) (96f56a)

  279. o by your logic, your lack of comment against child rape must mean that MAGAts and the GOP are 100% pro child rape.

    Colonel Klink (ret) (96f56a) — 6/17/2024 @ 5:07 pm

    You’re the one giving Pedo Joe aid and comfort.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  280. A “moral person” is one who goes to the police and not the church elders? Pretty secular.

    “Covering up” is like making it so no one knows. Everyone knew.

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  281. A “moral person” is one who goes to the police and not the church elders? Pretty secular.

    “Covering up” is like making it so no one knows. Everyone knew.

    Yeah, exactly

    Colonel Klink (ret) (96f56a)

  282. Like steveg, I do not attend church and if I did it would not be a megachurch. But I make an attempt to understand people different than myself. Not all do, relying instead on prejudice and self-righteousness.

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  283. This isn’t hard, covering up child rape is evil, period. That you seem to be contorting yourself to see “both sides” of child rape seems to be a strange hill to be fighting. But hey, you do you, but not the kid.

    Colonel Klink (ret) (96f56a)

  284. We should have the utmost trust in the DOJ:

    An ex-Biden White House appointee and current Democratic candidate for a county commissioner seat in Texas allegedly created a dummy social media account to post bogus racist comments about himself.

    Patel’s campaign website says he previously worked for the Department of Justice’s Criminal Division in the Public Integrity Section

    steveg (45f9f3)

  285. Col Klink

    Isn’t the most important part of a cover up a cover up

    steveg (45f9f3)

  286. Col Klink

    I read the article you linked and can’t find a cover up.

    “Pastor Robert has been open and forthright about a moral failure he had over 35 years ago when he was in his 20s and prior to him starting Gateway church. He has shared publicly from the pulpit the proper Biblical steps he took in his lengthy restoration process.

    It’s a mega church, so its thousands of people were made aware.

    I submitted myself to the Elders of Shady Grove Church and the young lady’s father. They asked me to step out of ministry and receive counseling and freedom ministry, which I did.”
    Morris’s accuser said while she had forgiven him for the sexual abuse, she did not believe he should have returned to ministry. I completely understand

    “The two-year restoration process was closely administered by the elders at Shady Grove church and included him stepping out of the ministry during that period while receiving professional counseling and freedom ministry counseling. Since the resolution of the 35-year-old matter, there have been no other moral failures.”
    Seems overly broad to say about another human, but I’m sure we are about to find out.

    steveg (45f9f3)

  287. You go to your elders when a church member is in an adulterous relationship, or when there’s a conflict between members over this or that.

    If someone committed a serious crime like diddling a child, you bypass the elders and deacons and go straight to the police.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  288. The “spiritual advisors” at Narcotics Anonymous meetings include guys who traded/received or both sexual favors behind the dumpsters at WalMart for meth, while underage and/or with underage people. They often draw the biggest crowds

    steveg (45f9f3)

  289. This isn’t hard, covering up child rape is evil, period. That you seem to be contorting yourself to see “both sides” of child rape seems to be a strange hill to be fighting. But hey, you do you, but not the kid.

    Colonel Klink (ret) (96f56a) — 6/17/2024 @ 6:20 pm

    Please quote your remarks on Ashley Biden’s abuse by her dad.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  290. It’s whatabout squirrel. Please quote either of the parties admitting to it on video. Or just maybe your infowars idiocy is just that, a malformed brain input.

    Colonel Klink (ret) (96f56a)

  291. Project Veritas provided the alleged diary to the National File when Project Veritas had reservations about publishing it.

    Project Veritas, court testimony indicates, paid $40,000 for this alleged diary. As reported by The Associated Press in August 2022, the document had come into the possession of two individuals after one moved into an apartment previously occupied by Ashley Biden.

    The two individuals, Harris and Kurlander pleaded guilty to conspiracy to transport stolen property across state lines in their sale of the document to Project Veritas. PV founder James O’Keefe stated his organization could not confirm the diary received belonged to Ashley Biden.

    We know what side of the evil line you’re on. The side where all the other biggly braned jeenyusses live.

    Colonel Klink (ret) (96f56a)

  292. Lack of enforcement doesn’t create an implied contract that it won’t happen in the future.

    It does to people with souls.

    Kevin M (a9545f) — 6/17/2024 @ 2:20 pm

    Governments don’t have souls; fortunately, they are cold, heartless bureaucracies.

    Supreme Court Rules Against Migrants in Dispute Over Deportation Hearing Notices

    The Supreme Court sided with the federal government on Friday in a dispute over what information immigration officials must provide migrants about their deportation hearings.
    ………….
    Justice Samuel A. Alito Jr. wrote the majority opinion, joined by four of the court’s other conservatives.

    He cautioned that the decision “does not mean that the government is free of its obligation” to provide immigrants with notice of deportation hearings. Rather, he wrote, it blocked immigrants from seeking to challenge removal orders “in perpetuity based on arguments they could have raised in a hearing that they chose to skip.”
    ……………
    The dispute before the court stemmed from a group of cases brought by immigrants who challenged their deportations, claiming they never received proper notice of their court hearings. Although the circumstances of each case varied, in each instance the government failed to provide a single notice to appear with information about the time and place of the deportation hearing.

    In each case, the migrant failed to show up for the hearing and was ordered deported. Each person challenged the deportation.
    …………..
    (One of the petitioners, Moris Esmelis Campos-Chaves) said that he received an initial notice for a deportation hearing, but that it did not include a date and time. Later that year, the immigration court mailed a notice with the details of his hearing to a Texas address that he had given to immigration officials. When he failed to show up at the hearing, an immigration judge ordered him deported.

    In September 2018, he asked to reopen his case, arguing that he had never received the details of his hearing and that his children would face exceptional hardship if he were deported.
    ……………
    The lawyer for the government, Charles L. McCloud, argued that a decision in favor of the migrants would mean that “an avalanche” of cases could be tossed back into the immigration system and that such a ruling “threatens to unsettle hundreds of thousands” of deportation orders the courts have issued for decades.
    ………….

    Rip Murdock (6e5f95)

  293. A “moral person” is one who goes to the police and not the church elders? Pretty secular.

    That’s a false choice. If clerical justice is important to you, by all means go to the church and get it. But under no circumstances is that a substitute for criminal justice. Knowing of any failing to report to criminal authorities the rape of a 12 year old girl is monstrous.

    lurker (c23034)

  294. Knowing of and failing….

    lurker (c23034)

  295. Klink tries and pretend, like with the Biden laptop, that the diary wasn’t verified and confirmed.

    No surprise.

    Biden is a pedo

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  296. Ahh, whatabout squirrel peeps. Why little lie when you can prove your biggly brane jeenyus with Yuuje lies. Confirming Jersy stereotypes.

    Colonel Klink (ret) (96f56a)

  297. Your lack of literacy and desire to defend Pedo Joe is noted.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  298. Your lack of…oh why bother…peep…peep…peep

    Colonel Klink (ret) (96f56a)

  299. Abrahamic religions all believe that their God has superior judgement over man, that God is perfectly just and Gods judgements in matters of sins are precisely, perfectly measured, so I get your point about monstrous but those people don’t see clerical justice as a substitute. They believe man’s criminal justice system is an inferior imitation of the real thing, particularly inferior for sins committed within the church body. The “Church” has really wrestled with this over the last 35 -50 years with the Catholic church sex scandals and the lawsuits bringing the extent of sexual abuse to front and center of international conversations. I know churches that have policies that boil down to ” you must repent, and ask forgiveness, we do forgive and together with other churches have a prison ministry in every facility around the state and we suggest you attend” but those were very rare 35 years ago.

    steveg (45f9f3)

  300. The offended woman thinks that the guy should not ever have been put into church leadership again. I tend to agree with her, but it was 35 years ago, she was a minor and her dad (Happy Fathers Day, I hope) made a decision. I can’t fault Dad either, obviously a man deeply involved in the church 1989 who probably believed then and maybe still believes now that a group of fellow believers bringing a man together before God for judgement is superior to the criminal justice system. That gets done in churches today and the ‘sinner” is then released to the criminal justice system for its judgement. Christians believe that ensures the punishment, rehabilitation, overall outcome for everyone is superior to what otherwise might have been if simply left to the hands and judgements of men.

    steveg (45f9f3)

  301. In any event this was a far better outcome than, say, Chappaquiddick.

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  302. Ahh, in the great before times, when all things were tremendous.

    “If you don’t test, you don’t have any cases,” Trump said at a June 15 roundtable discussion at the White House. “If we stopped testing right now, we’d have very few cases, if any.”
    It’s a talking point the administration is emphasizing. Vice President Mike Pence reiterated it during a phone call to Republican governors that evening, recommending they use the argument as a strategy to quiet public concern about surging case tallies in some states. It’s also a variation on a tweet the president sent earlier in the day.

    With that in mind, we wanted to dig deeper. We reached out to the White House for comment or clarification, but we never heard back. Independent researchers told us, though, that the president’s remarks are not only misleading — they’re also counterproductive in terms of thinking through what’s needed to combat the coronavirus pandemic.

    The stable jeenyus.

    Colonel Klink (ret) (96f56a)

  303. @263 you mean like jesse duplantis who told his mega church that god wants him to have a 4th bigger jet or they will burn in hell like orel the robber roberts use to do?

    asset (241e24)

  304. That gets done in churches today and the ‘sinner” is then released to the criminal justice system for its judgement.

    That’s all I’m saying.

    Christians believe that ensures the punishment, rehabilitation, overall outcome for everyone is superior to what otherwise might have been if simply left to the hands and judgements of men.

    Again, do both if you want. Just don’t think the clerical is permission to avoid the criminal. It’s not.

    lurker (c23034)

  305. Or maybe I’m wrong. Maybe we should refer honor killings to exclusive adjudication by the local imam.

    lurker (c23034)

  306. Absent new information, that Church probably feels this is a real good example of what God centered Church discipline should yield, warts and all. I even know the sermon. “They had no idea the man would build this church etc etc when they forgave and worked with him as a 20 something year old etc etc.” It’ll take 30 minutes and have a bunch of bible verses, a joke or two, an anecdote. One of the jokes will be an inside church running gag, and if its a hot day and no air conditioning like in the old days, the mix of perfumes, colognes, gingivitis should drive everyone out of the building but they’ll stay. Not my thing, but can still have respect for people who get together once a week to be reminded the world doesn’t revolve around themself. Maybe some of that will rub off on Trump

    steveg (45f9f3)

  307. lurker. Hello.
    Churches often deal with theft and embezzlement in house today. I think murder has been placed into the human realm by Christian churches, Jewish Synagogues, for a long time now.

    Sexual “sins” of all sorts including the sins of infidelity, sins of homosexuality, fornication were regularly dealt with in house by Christian churches even back when they were criminally illegal in our justice system.

    “Sins” of spousal rape, spousal violence, what is now statutory rape that were not illegal at the time were also recognized as sins and dealt with within the church.

    In rural areas the church held the area together better than one or two lawmen could.

    Of course all of this varied church to church but my point is to try to understand the civil, social functions the church historically performed in the US and view it though that lens. The criminal justice system has evolved in the US and so has the church. They haven’t evolved in tandem, they never arrive at the same place at the same time.

    For example, Delaware had the age of consent at 7 back in 1880 and many churches refused marriages, highly discouraged these unions within the church and outside the church, but later on churches would ignore or extend “Romeo and Juliet” laws by marrying 21 year old guys (or older guys) to pregnant 15 year old (or younger) girls. That marriage was often the preferred outcome for the criminal courts and for the parents of the girl. “Handle it through the church, get married before God and we will call it no harm, no foul”

    steveg (45f9f3)

  308. There are sins and there are crimes. The church handles the former; the justice system handles the latter. Both have a role to play in child rape. This seems more like the church shielding its pastor from the justice system.

    DRJ (f65e25)

  309. Further, does “everyone know” when churches deal with crimes within the church community?

    DRJ (f65e25)

  310. Meal ticket ministries and meal ticket politics, time-honored attestations to human gullibility. In comparison, the Trump phenomenon ranks somewhere between Beanie Babies and the Nehru jacket.

    nk (bb1548)

  311. @291

    This isn’t hard, covering up child rape is evil, period. That you seem to be contorting yourself to see “both sides” of child rape seems to be a strange hill to be fighting. But hey, you do you, but not the kid.

    Colonel Klink (ret) (96f56a) — 6/17/2024 @ 6:20 pm

    Please quote your remarks on Ashley Biden’s abuse by her dad.

    NJRob (eb56c3) — 6/17/2024 @ 7:45 pm

    @Klink, NJRob has a good point.

    If you believe *more* should’ve been done to that pastor (and I agree with you! The police should’ve been involved!), then your lack of condemnation of President Pedo is appalling.

    whembly (86df54)

  312. Not everybody wants to give Donnie a cookie.

    nk (bb1548)

  313. On the subject of America’s religious history, there’s the story of the Second Battle of Adobe Walls. That was in Hutchinson County, Texas, I believe.

    The Comanche shaman Quenatosavit (Comanche: Kwihnai Tosaabitʉ; lit. ’White Eagle’) organized a Sun Dance and promised the Comanche, Kiowa, and Cheyenne warriors that he had made them bulletproof. So they confidently surrounded the buffalo hunters camped at Adobe Walls.

    Unfortunately for the Indians, the buffalo hunters were infidels with absolutely no respect For Native American religion. They killed 15 warriors and wounded many more. One named Billy Dixon shot an Indian warrior with his buffalo gun from nearly a mile away. Just up and shot him. You can imagine what it did for the confidence of the rest.

    Afterwards, the shaman was renamed by the Comanche from Kwihnai Tosaabitʉ (English: White Eagle) to Isatai’i (Wolf’s Vulva). Such is fame.

    nk (bb1548)

  314. https://www.thefp.com/p/coleman-hughes-derek-chauvin-george-floyd
    …where Mr. Hughes responds to Balko.

    Good read.

    whembly (86df54)

  315. Pedo President charge brings back some memories:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yu9IdxshAkc

    If Trump declared he was Satan in the middle of 5th Avenue while shooting a machine gun at women and children while claiming Presidental immunity, some of you all would still be crying b-but Biden!! He’s Satan, too!

    Appalled (12a057)

  316. Or maybe I’m wrong. Maybe we should refer honor killings to exclusive adjudication by the local imam.

    Nobody died, and the church did not advocate rape. Besides those two slight differences, you might have a point.

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  317. Not everybody wants to give Donnie a cookie.

    Oh, I DO. But he’d be ill-advised to eat it.

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  318. Klink tries and pretend, like with the Biden laptop, that the diary wasn’t verified and confirmed.

    Confirmed by whom? Did Ashley Biden issue a statement or testify confirming its contents?

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  319. She confirmed the diary was hers.

    Rip playing the Biden laptop playback to a T.

    Anything to protect pedo Joe.

    NJRob (97fe35)

  320. NJRob (97fe35) — 6/18/2024 @ 9:28 am

    In order for President Biden to be prosecuted or impeached, she will need to testify that the diary entries are true.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  321. Biden has done many troubling things with women and girls. Being an important politician helps protect him but the real problem is that, to my knowledge, there are no cooperating complainants.

    But that doesn’t mean there is a basis to not want to vote for him. I get it. It is how many women feel about Trump.

    DRJ (496584)

  322. Anything to protect pedo Joe.

    NJRob (97fe35) — 6/18/2024 @ 9:28 am

    You overestimate the influence of anything posted here.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  323. If Ashley Biden’s diary is such an open and shut case against the President, why hasn’t the House Judiciary or Oversight Committees scheduled hearings on her bombshell allegations? You think it would be a great opportunity to publicly destroy the President with testimony from which he would never recover.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  324. RIP legendary French actress Anouk Aimée (92):

    …………
    Her big break was Fellini’s arthouse film La Dolce Vita, one of the most acclaimed movies in Italian cinematic history, in 1960. Three years later she would appear in his film .

    It was her starring role in Lelouch’s 1966 film A Man and a Woman which is said to have made her into an icon of doomed romance. And it earned her a Golden Globe and a Bafta award for best actress, as well as an Oscar nomination.

    It was the first time that an actor or actress had been Oscar-nominated for a French-language performance. She lost out to Elizabeth Taylor who won for Who’s Afraid of Virginia Woolf? but A Man And A Woman did win the award for best foreign language film.
    ……….
    Aimée was renowned for her beauty, as well as her acting talent.

    She was considered “one of the 100 sexiest stars in film history”, according to a 1995 poll conducted by Empire magazine.
    ………

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  325. Ouch!

    New York’s Court of Appeals, the top court in the Empire State, on Tuesday unceremoniously jettisoned Donald Trump’s appeal to lift the gag order in his hush-money case, weeks after the former president was convicted of 34 felony counts in Manhattan.

    Without elaborating further, the court tossed the appeal without costs “upon the ground that no substantial constitutional question is directly involved,” yet another blow to the Trump team’s lingering efforts to undo Acting New York Supreme Court Justice Juan Merchan’s gag order, which ordered the defendant to “refrain” from “making or directing others to make public statements about known or reasonably foreseeable witnesses,” jurors, court staff, and the Manhattan District Attorney Alvin Bragg’s (D) staff in the case.
    ………
    After the verdict but before sentencing, Trump lawyers renewed their efforts before Merchan, asking the judge to lift the gag order, a request that DA Bragg vehemently opposed.

    The Trump team argued that “because the trial has concluded,” the “stated bases for the gag order no longer exist.”

    The prosecution and the defense are still waiting on the judge to rule on that latest bid to lift the gag.
    ##########

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  326. Rip Murdock (bc5e38) — 6/15/2024 @ 1:54 pm

    SAD!

    There is simply nothing Steve Bannon can say that is new or would support any “substantial question” resulting in a reversal of his contempt of Congress conviction or warranting a completely new trial, according to a new motion from federal prosecutors filed on Monday.
    ………
    Bannon primarily argues that the “mental state required for contempt of Congress presents a ‘substantial question’ justifying release” but prosecutors say he “does not address the issue in context of potential panel rehearing or rehearing en banc” but instead merely “focuses his argument on how he thinks the Supreme Court might view (Licavoli v. United States, 294 F.2d 207 (D.C. Cir. 1961)),” prosecutors wrote.

    Mafioso Peter Licavoli was held in contempt of Congress despite the fact that his lawyer told him not to appear for testimony about mob crime in the 1950s. Long standing precedent has since established that people who “willfully” refuse congressional subpoenas can be penalized regardless of their reason.
    …………
    Despite Bannon’s insistence, they say there exists “no evidence that, at the time of his subpoena, President [Donald] Trump did anything more than give vague directions about ‘potentially’ privileged information, which did not amount to an assertion of executive privilege.”
    ………….
    “Rather, (then Trump attorney Justin Clark) made clear that he had not suggested total noncompliance and that he did not believe Bannon was immune from testifying,” Monday’s motion states.
    …………
    “The application of settled legal principles to new facts does not create a substantial question of law,” (prosecutors) wrote.

    Bannon has quibbled with the government over the meaning of “willfully,” suggesting it can only mean “with knowledge that his conduct was unlawful” but prosecutors say that “willfully” is dependent on the context in which it appears and that the context in Bannon’s case means the word can be construed as “deliberately” and “intentionally.”
    ……….
    Bannon’s defense to ignoring the Jan. 6 committee subpoena has rested on his claim that he received this advice from attorney Robert Costello but again, prosecutors say, the Supreme Court has repeatedly found that those people who “refused to answer ‘in good faith on the advice of competent counsel’” did not entitle them to a new trial because a defendant’s “mistaken view of the law is no defense.”
    ………
    Moreover, as the Jan. 6 committee itself reminded Bannon when first making their requests: most of the topics tied to the subpoena had “nothing to do with any communications with President Trump and indeed concerned events long postdating Bannon’s service in the Executive Branch.”
    ………
    No reasonable jury could conclude that Bannon operated in good faith when he ignored the subpoenas, the motion underlines.
    ………
    “Like the length of his sentence, Bannon’s role in the political discourse is simply not a relevant factor under 18 USC 3143(b)(1). Bannon also cannot reconcile his claim for special treatment with the bedrock principle of equal justice under the law. Even-handed application of the bail statute requires Bannon’s continued detention,” the motion concludes.
    ………

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  327. Your tax dollars at work:

    U.S. Pier for Gaza Aid Is Failing, and Could Be Dismantled Early

    Officials hope a looming deadline will pressure Israel to open more land routes into the territory, which is facing extreme levels of hunger.

    The $230 million temporary pier that the U.S. military built on short notice to rush humanitarian aid to Gaza has largely failed in its mission, aid organizations say, and will probably end operations weeks earlier than originally expected.

    In the month since it was attached to the shoreline, the pier has been in service only about 10 days. The rest of the time, it was being repaired after rough seas broke it apart, detached to avoid further damage or paused because of security concerns.

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  328. But that doesn’t mean there is a basis to not want to vote for him. I get it. It is how many women feel about Trump.

    Yeah. It is really amazing how people focus on Biden’s handsiness but neglect Trump’s sexual assaults and trollop chasing. I wonder if Trump has ever had sex where money did not change hands.

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  329. @324 DRJ, I don’t think anyone wants to vote for Biden who isn’t named “Biden”. It’s just when you look at the likely alternative slobbering threats and lies in the corner while grifting his supporters you start to think about the ‘least bad’ alternative.

    Time123 (4eb369)

  330. whembly (86df54) — 6/14/2024 @ 3:14 pm

    Let’s ignore that there’s a Hunter Biden email directing everyone that 10% goes to “The Big Guy”.

    But Hunter had every reason to lie about that and falsely laim he was going to hold 10% for “the big guy” And Joe Biden did not have a reason at that time (2017, when he was out of office) to keep his name off the record.

    And this accusation contradicts the claim that he gave 50% (half of his salary) to Joe Biden (based on a probably deliberate Steve Bannon misinterpretation of something Hunter Biden wrote – he was probably referring to something in the past probably in connection with repaying some loan his father gave him years before)

    Same thing with supporting his family for 30 years. His nuclear family !That was in a text message to his daughter January 3, 2019,)

    Sammy Finkelman (c2c77e)

  331. Why 2024 stinks:

    https://www.thebulwark.com/p/this-is-why-youre-exhausted-by-politics

    Items 1 and 2 are about the Trump “revolution”. Item 3 makes me feel the world has passed me by, and that’s a good thing:

    Item 1 — representative sample:

    Unlike normal revolutionaries, the Trumpist revolutionaries risk nothing. If their gambit succeeds, then they overturn the Constitutional order. And if it fails? They go back to their boats, and trucks, and good-paying jobs, and iPhones.

    Maybe a few hundred of them will see jail time for breaking the law. But those who merely demand that others break the law risk nothing.

    What’s more, this revolution has discovered that it gets as many bites at the apple as it likes. All defeats and setback are temporary. The movement lives to fight again. They can lose a dozen times—they only have to win once more.

    You can see why this revolution is so appealing. It carries the allure of the glorious struggle, without any downsides, and with as many mulligans as they want.

    Item 2 sample

    In sum: While the revolutionaries get to have their glamorous Götterdämmerung, over and over, the forces of the status quo have to defend against wave after wave of challenges. And it doesn’t matter how many authoritarian attempts are beaten back. There’s always another one looming.

    That is why you’re exhausted.

    And let’s be honest about human nature: Breaking things is fun. Especially when you don’t experience any consequences. But running around putting out fires, and cleaning up broken glass, and asking people to stop breaking things? That is not fun. It is enervating.

    So while the revolutionary feels like a hero, you feel like a scold.

    Item 3

    The mom was torn. To reach the influencer stratosphere, the account would need a lot more followers—and she would have to be less discriminating about who they were. Instagram promotes content based on engagement, and the male accounts she had been blocking tend to engage aggressively, lingering on photos and videos and boosting them with likes or comments. Running them off, or broadly disabling comments, would likely doom her daughter’s influencer aspirations.

    That was a reason to say no. There were also reasons to say yes. The mom felt the account had brought her closer with her daughter, and even second- and third-tier influencers can make tens of thousands of dollars a year or more. The money could help pay for college, the mom thought.

    The mom said yes. And with that, she grew to accept a grim reality: Being a young influencer on Instagram means building an audience including large numbers of men who take sexual interest in children. . . .

    Read the whole thing — and please don’t slit your wrists afterwards.

    Appalled (12a057)

  332. I think it’s very clear that the core Trumpists view themselves as revolutionaries, and that in their eyes their revolution is restoring the system, reclaiming it from nefarious forces who have taking capture of it … while in the eyes of the core anti-Trumpists, their revolution is destroying the system and replacing it with something that is quite definitely *not* a form of liberal democracy.

    Trumpists think the Republic has been destroyed and needs a revolution to save and restore it; anti-Trumpists think the Trumpists are trying to destroy the system.

    aphrael (99fd6b)

  333. What I see of the core Trumpists is that they like their sex vicarious and illicit. Trump’s innumerable escapades, pictures of Hunter with hookers, apocryphal diaries suggesting incest, and random rapes in the news.

    nk (bb1548)

  334. #335 Y’know, I always thought the revolutionists without consequences were a left wing college thing. Judging by the pro-Hamas kiddy riots, it still is to a certain extent. Kind of hard to accept it has become a right wing way of life now.

    Appalled (88a1a3)

  335. Charmin did try to mollify them with scalloped tear perforations on their toilet paper (for real) but apparently it did not last. Maybe a new Cheetos flavor?

    nk (bb1548)

  336. They’re not revolutionaries. They’re snivelers and nags, chronic malcontents, and they have always been around. The only thing that changes is what they’re bitching and moaning about at any given time.

    nk (bb1548)

  337. And if it fails? They go back to their boats, and trucks, and good-paying jobs, and iPhones.

    After two or three years, they find out they’re wrong (or right)

    There is no terrorist attack committed by people from Uzbekistan Tajikistan or some other place in the former Soviet Union.

    Girls’ sports are or are not destroyed. Or maybe slightly damaged.

    Inflation does or does not fade away.

    Electrical power blackouts are or are not caused by the proliferation of electric cars that are sent to auto graveyards for unsold cars.

    Crime gets slightly better or worse. The economy gets better or worse.

    Some stupid idea makes life worse or not.

    People in schools or wanting to attend them are or are not forced to sign on to things they do not believe.

    Neighborhoods are or are not wrecked.

    And things can come true or not come true for irrelevant reasons.

    Sammy Finkelman (e4ef09)

  338. aphrael (99fd6b) — 6/18/2024 @ 12:53 pm

    Trumpists think the Republic has been destroyed and needs a revolution to save and restore it; anti-Trumpists think the Trumpists are trying to destroy the system.

    Trumpists think some institutions have been destroyed and now promote bad things – they think
    the Republic (and fair elections) are going to be destroyed unless Trump is elected. And of course immigration will destroy the United States.

    Anti-Trumpists think the world will be destroyed if we don’t completely get rid of oil and natural gas in less than 6, or 26 years, and ideas that are quite new are the only way to think.

    A lot of people don’t pay attention to the arguments or are undecided.

    Sammy Finkelman (e4ef09)

  339. The only thing that changes is what they’re bitching and moaning about at any given time.

    And their vast numbers.

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  340. 338. nk (bb1548) — 6/18/2024 @ 1:42 pm

    Charmin did try to mollify them with scalloped tear perforations on their toilet paper (for real) but apparently it did not last.

    I saw it advertised but did not see it.

    I wonder if they were hoping for Rabbinical certification that it was kosher to tear on Shabbos even initially (from the start) (There is, I think, a brand in Israel with no perforations) but were afraid to call attention to it because they feared they’d be attacked by anti-Semites.

    Sammy Finkelman (e4ef09)

  341. Child diddler Robert Morris has resigned.
    Shining a light on this instead hiding it in an elder conference room is the better course.
    This reminds me a little of the child abuse at Kanakuk, that Nancy French was trying to expose. Too many secrets.
    On a good note, Ms. French is free of cancer, “even microscopically”.

    Paul Montagu (1e8339)

  342. 334. Appalled (12a057) — 6/18/2024 @ 12:20 pm

    Read the whole thing — and please don’t slit your wrists afterwards.

    I read it in the newspaper.

    The article did not quite make it clear what the attitude of the mother.

    I think she initially wanted the site for girls, but she (and her daughter) were attracted to the money and were now hoping for interest from men without however it resulting in stalking or too much sexual interest in her daughter.

    Sammy Finkelman (e4ef09)

  343. SAD!

    Shares of Trump Media & Technology Group fell nearly 10% on Tuesday, continuing the stock’s tumble following the conviction of former President Donald Trump, the company’s majority shareholder.

    The stock closed at $31.31 Tuesday, on much higher than average trading volume of 7.52 million shares.

    Shares of Trump Media, which trades under the ticker “DJT,” are down about 40% since May 30, when a New York jury found Trump guilty of 34 felony counts of falsifying business records.

    Tuesday’s sell-off coincided with a June 18 deadline that could see some of the company’s investors exercise stock warrants.
    ……….
    “If TMTG disagrees with President Donald J. Trump about the scope of his obligation to use, or first post on, Truth Social, TMTG lacks any meaningful remedy with respect to such disagreement,” the amended (registration statement) read.

    Such a scenario, the company cautioned, “could have a material adverse effect on the business and/or operations of TMTG.”

    The warning came just weeks after the former president — who uses Truth Social almost exclusively to make his public statements — joined the social media app TikTok.

    Truth Social, meanwhile, has struggled to maintain its small user base. The social media site’s average number of monthly visits from May 2023 to April 2024 was 39% lower than the previous 12-month period, according to digital intelligence platform Similarweb.
    …………


    TMTG’s shares have fallen an additional 9% in after hours trading to $28.35 per share.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  344. > Anti-Trumpists think the world will be destroyed if we don’t completely get rid of oil and natural gas in less than 6, or 26 years, and ideas that are quite new are the only way to think.

    I doubt even a majority of the anti-Trumpists *here* think that. Yeah, there’s a chunk of the left who thinks that, but that’s not the driving force behind anti-Trumpism.

    The driving force behind anti-Trumpism is the belief that Trump, *as an individual*, is manifestly unfit to hold any public office whatsoever, and that his personal pathologies combined with the degree of blind loyalty he induces means that handing him power again will inevitably lead to him doing things that destroy the *structure* of the government, with the support of adoring fans, in ways that will permanently change the character of our governance and be impossible to undo on the time horizon of a lifespan.

    Some people who believe this also believe what you say, not all do, and the ones who do aren’t even a majority.

    aphrael (99fd6b)

  345. Link for post 346.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  346. Too good to check…

    In honor of Noam Chomsky’s views on the Cambodian and Bosnian genocides, please deny his death ever happened and call everyone mourning it a bloodthirsty lying warmonger.

    Paul Montagu (6a638f)

  347. On a good note, Ms. French is free of cancer, “even microscopically”.

    Good. There are a lot of cancers that are curable today.

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  348. Shares of Trump Media & Technology Group fell nearly 10% on Tuesday, continuing the stock’s tumble following the conviction of former President Donald Trump, the company’s majority shareholder.

    That’s not the reason it fell. The company registered more than 14 million new shares, and you are seeing the effects of that dilution.

    The stock price of Trump Media plunged by more than 17% in after-hours trading Tuesday after the Truth Social app owner said its registration of additional shares had been declared effective by the Securities and Exchange Commission.

    Trump Media, which trades under the DJT ticker, had seen its share price slump by nearly 10% during the regular trading day.

    The SEC’s declaration authorizes early investors in Trump Media to exercise public warrants they hold in the company, whose majority shareholder is former President Donald Trump.

    Trump Media in a prospectus filed Tuesday with the SEC said that up to 14,375,000 additional shares would be issuable upon the exercise of those warrants.

    https://www.cnbc.com/2024/06/18/trump-media-shares-plunge-17percent-with-newly-available-shares-set-to-dilute-stock-value.html

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  349. The driving force behind anti-Trumpism is the belief that Trump, *as an individual*, is manifestly unfit to hold any public office whatsoever,

    yes that’s true, but I was thinking of beliefs that are wrong.

    and that his personal pathologies combined with the degree of blind loyalty he induces means that handing him power again will inevitably lead to him doing things that destroy the *structure* of the government,

    Inevitably? That’s too much. You can say that’s a possibility.

    Inevitably maybe that he will do something unconstitutional.

    Trump can’t change the structure of government There are the courts, and none of the judges he appointed from 2017 through 2020 will go along.

    Even in Hungary, the locus classicus of illiberal democracy, someone emerged from Prime Minister Viktor Orban’s Fidesz party (possibly related to a divorce) named Peter Magyar, is becoming a big opposition figure. He is focuing on corruption, especially the misuse of billions of euros in European Union funds and the pardon of man who covered up pedophilia at a sate run children’s home or corruption, particularly the and Hungary’s tilt toward Russia.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/17/world/europe/hungary-magyar-orban.html

    If people get away with things they always think they can get away with more. And then something happens.

    In India Narenda Modi lost votes and in South Africa the Democratic Alliance joined a coalition with the ANC.

    Sammy Finkelman (e4ef09)

  350. with the support of adoring fans, in ways that will permanently change the character of our governance There are not so many adoring fans. They haven’t captured the election machinery in many places.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/06/us/politics/nevada-election-clerk-trump.html

    This in a sparsely populated county (Esmeralda County) where Trump got 82% of the vote! That’s where they went looking for fraud and dishonest election officials or equipment.

    TYhe recall effort failed due to technicalities.

    and be impossible to undo on the time horizon of a lifespan.

    The place where we see people trying to lock in bad (or controversial) policies are on the left.

    Sammy Finkelman (e4ef09)

  351. There is one true thing Noam Chomsky said:

    Colorless green ideas sleep furiously

    You think they are beaten back dead but they come back again. How many years have we had the same stupid ideas about an emergency or about trivial efforts, not even arounding error, preventing terrible climate change?

    Sammy Finkelman (e4ef09)

  352. Kevin M (a9545f) — 6/18/2024 @ 11:38 am

    Trump’s sexual assaults and trollop chasing. I wonder if Trump has ever had sex where money did not change hands.

    It can’t both be true that he engages or engaged in sexual assault but money always changed hands.

    Sammy Finkelman (e4ef09)

  353. The New York State court system has taken down the transcripts of the Trump trial despite the guilty verdict. I was alerted to that by a New York Daily News editorial, but I think they were unavailable last week except I thought that might be a temporary glitch..

    It’s still available at the New York Times (and the Washington Post) and they were better (easier to search through) at the New York Times

    Except they can’t be cut and pasted using normal software..

    https://www.nytimes.com/article/trump-hush-money-trial-transcripts.html

    Sammy Finkelman (e4ef09)

  354. Ukraine negotiations at the start of the war:

    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/06/15/world/europe/ukraine-russia-ceasefire-deal.html

    Documents reviewed by The New York Times shed light on the points of disagreement that would have to be overcome.

    The documents emerged from negotiating sessions that took place in the weeks after the start of the war, from February to April of 2022. It was the only time that Ukrainian and Russian officials are known to have engaged in direct peace talks.,,,

    An examination of the documents shows that the two sides clashed over issues including weapons levels, the terms of Ukraine’s potential membership in the European Union, and specific Ukrainian laws on language and culture that Russia wanted repealed. Ukraine’s negotiators offered to forgo NATO membership, and to accept Russian occupation of parts of their territory. But they refused to recognize Russian sovereignty over them.

    I think the true sticking point was that Russia wanted the sanctions lifted. (and it didn’t want other countries to come to its defense if attacked again

    …At the time, little about these peace negotiations was known, and what has leaked out in the two years since has been shoehorned into wartime talking points by each side. Mr. Putin contends the West pressured Ukraine to reject a peace deal; Ukraine’s Foreign Ministry says that “if Russia wanted peace in 2022, why had it attacked Ukraine in the first place?”

    The Times is publishing the documents it obtained in full. They are treaty drafts dated March 17 and April 15, 2022, showing the two sides’ competing proposals and points of agreement; and a private “communiqué” at in-person talks in Istanbul on March 29 that summarized the proposed deal.

    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/06/15/world/europe/ukraine-russia-peace-negotiations.html

    President Vladimir V. Putin had referred to the 2022 talks as a foundation for any future deal, but shifted to a harder line on Friday, demanding Ukraine cede territory that is not even under Russian control. Ukrainian and Western officials have long suspected that Russia would not be willing to settle for anything less than the full subjugation of Ukraine.

    Sammy Finkelman (e4ef09)

  355. It can’t both be true that he engages or engaged in sexual assault but money always changed hands

    Definitely not all of them, but a few of them. There was the porn star, the other porn star, that’s a few hundo, plus court costs and other various legal fee’s, there’s Carroll and that’s at $90M to her case alone, which seems to be a lot.

    Then there were the claims from his first wife, the Epstein “model”, the Houraney lady, Zervos, all chose to drop their court cases after discussions with Trump’s legal team.

    I’m sure he paid other’s, had a few other youthful indiscretions, youthful discretions, and generally the life of a carefree 70’s rich kid with bonespurs that claims in his own words that avoiding STD’s was his own private Vietnam.

    When you’re that rich and powerful, everything has a price tag, Him, Clinton, Gore, Gates, Musk, they’re all of a type.

    So, sex is going to end up costing him hundreds of millions of dollars, which is fine, he has it, and the MAGAts love him for it. It shows how super green he is.

    Colonel Klink (ret) (96f56a)

  356. Everybody breaks the law in Venezuela, but the law is almost only used against political opponents – people who merely help a campaign a little

    https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/16/world/americas/venezuela-election-corozo-pando-empanadas.html

    ….Corina and her sister Elys Hernández have emerged as unlikely political folk heroes just as Venezuela is heading into its most competitive election in years.

    Their transgression? Selling 14 breakfasts and a handful of empanadas to the country’s leading opposition figure. The government’s response came just hours later — an order forcing the sisters to temporarily shut down their business…

    ,,,But their business is just one of several that have felt the strong arm of the government after offering everyday services to President Nicolás Maduro’s main political opponent, María Corina Machado.

    Ms. Machado, a former legislator and longtime critic of Mr. Maduro, isn’t even running, but she is capitalizing on her popularity to campaign alongside and on behalf of the leading opposition presidential candidate.

    …In late May, Ms. Machado stopped at Pancho Grill with her team in between campaign events, buying breakfast and posing for pictures with the Hernández family.

    But the opposition leader had barely left when the sisters received new visitors: two tax regulators and a National Guardsman, who said they were temporarily shutting the business down.

    The sisters had failed to keep accounting books or declare their earnings, among other issues, the officials told them.

    The sisters did not dispute these accusations. But in their two decades in operation, they had never received a visit from the tax agency, they said. And in a region where such infractions are commonplace, no one else in town was inspected that day.

    The Hernández family was told the restaurant would be shut down for 15 days.

    See also:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/14/world/americas/rocio-san-miguel-detention-venezuela.html

    Sammy Finkelman (e4ef09)

  357. The New York Times ran a few articles that mention opposition to Hamas in Gaza.

    Donkeys get called Yahya Sinwar. They curse Hamas. Say both Israel
    and Hamas do not care who gets in the way when they fight. The quotes are invariably anonymous but they are made. One person sees it as Hamas climbed up a tree and doesn’t know how to get down

    Sammy Finkelman (e4ef09)

  358. It can’t both be true that he engages or engaged in sexual assault but money always changed hands.

    As we have seen, it does so afterwards. Usually in large amounts.

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  359. @317 if you vote third party like me you don’t have to worry who is the lesser of two evils.

    asset (522ed2)

  360. @330 biden would send the tax dollars directly to dearborn michigan if he could.

    asset (522ed2)

  361. #360 That’s quite unfair to donkeys. Off hand, I can’t think of any animal that would deserve to be compared to the Hamas leader.

    Jim Miller (8d7f07)

  362. Sammy, here’s a good synopsis of the 2022 peace negotiations. Basically, Putin gets what he wants and Ukraine must be left defenseless from future attacks. Pretty much anyone in the West (and Ukraine) saw that this was a non-starter.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  363. Say Hey, RIP Willie Mays (93).

    Rip Murdock (6e5f95)

  364. My peace plan: Ukraine joins NATO and Russian has 2 weeks to get out.

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  365. My peace plan: Ukraine joins NATO and Russian has 2 weeks to get out.

    Kevin M (a9545f) — 6/18/2024 @ 6:57 pm

    My guess would be that NATO would say no thanks.

    Rip Murdock (6e5f95)

  366. If NATO wanted Ukraine as a member they would have joined by now. NATO wants to preserve Ukraine as a buffer state.

    Rip Murdock (6e5f95)

  367. My peace plan: Ukraine joins NATO and Russian has 2 weeks to get out.

    Kevin M (a9545f) — 6/18/2024 @ 6:57 pm

    LOL! And if they don’t?

    Rip Murdock (6e5f95)

  368. NATO could never accept a nation as a member when two of its regions are under enemy occupation.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  369. > My peace plan: Ukraine joins NATO and Russian has 2 weeks to get out.

    You willing to go to war with Russia in two weeks if Russia says no to that?

    Russia won’t believe the threat and will call our bluff, and it will be the worst crisis in international relations since 1914 (if not earlier).

    aphrael (1797ab)

  370. The question should have been not “Are we willing to go to war with Russia” but is Russia willing to go with us. The entire problem with out Ukraine policy is that we didn’t start in 2014 with “GTFO.”

    This entire fearful reaction is exactly what Putin wants. The flip side of “Peace through strength” is “War through weakness.” And we exude weakness. After Ukraine falls (and it will, given our feckless creeping into this thing), we will be talking about going to war for Estonia. Then Poland. Then comes the conflagration because we didn’t stop Putin at Crimea.

    Until we are willing to go to war to stop aggression, we will get more aggression. It’s really very simple.

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  371. Biden’s plan is the old man’s plan: in a little while it won’t matter any more. So, he loses the war slowly, hoping either to avoid the consequences, or at least to be able to blame someone else. It may be the GOP that throws in the towel, but it will have been Biden who lost it first. He already has.

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  372. @374 Go tell putin the good news! He just gave away part of his country to china as he is running out of everything.

    asset (1a3c04)

  373. 361 It can’t both be true that he engages or engaged in sexual assault but money always changed hands. Kevin M (a9545f) — 6/18/2024 @ 5:26 pm

    As we have seen, it does so afterwards. Usually in large amounts.

    The only ones where Trump agreed to pay were cases of voluntary coitus, although Trump is still denying it happened.

    He’s been accused by some but was not sued and didn’t pay (including an impossible accusation on Braniff Airlines)

    He got sued by one person for denying her claim of an incident in a store, and then for the alleged incident itself.

    Sammy Finkelman (c2c77e)

  374. Biden thinks that if Ukraine utterly loses the war that will not be the end of Russian aggression, but if he freezes it the war will be contained, and he’s afraid to let Ukraine gain too much on Russia, and especially to have the war affect Russian territory.

    It works out that, by him, the best course of action is to keep the war going until Putin (or somebody else in charge of Russia) decides to end the war.

    Putin thinkss that if worst goes to worse, he can always end the war on acceptable to him terms.

    Sammy Finkelman (c2c77e)

  375. @asset What are you talking about about Russia giving away some territory to China?

    Sammy Finkelman (c2c77e)

  376. Kevin M (a9545f) — 6/18/2024 @ 10:02 pm

    The question should have been not “Are we willing to go to war with Russia” but is Russia willing to go with us.

    The answer is no, unless maybe it would be all over for Putin if not.

    The entire problem with out Ukraine policy is that we didn’t start in 2014 with “GTFO.”

    In 2014 he was deterred from doing more, and did what he did t keep Ukraine out of Nato by not letting it haave defined boundaries, but in 2021 he decided when he saw how anxious Biden was to finish with Afghanistan, that there was no risk of war with the United States and/or NATO if he invaded Ukraine and tried to topple its government. He’s still afraid to invade a NATO country, like Estonia or Poland.

    Sammy Finkelman (c2c77e)

  377. Trump claims he could end the war in Ukraine while still president-elect (sort of like the way Reagan freed the hostages in Iran? Iran made the best deal it could while Jimmy Carter was still president)

    Sammy Finkelman (c2c77e)

  378. Trump claims he could end the war in Ukraine while still president-elect

    Most likely by telling Zelensky to drop dead. But who knows. Trump is, if anything, mercurial and self-involved. He may decide that telling Putin to GTFO is in his interest.

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  379. He may be thinking of how Eisenhower ended the Korean War. Settle or status quo or he’s going to escalate. Saying it would happen while he is still not yet president sounds like it is something like scaring Putin about what he might do.

    It would be in Trump’s interest to be credited with ending the war in a more or less satisfactory way

    Sammy Finkelman (c2c77e)

  380. After Ukraine falls (and it will, given our feckless creeping into this thing), we will be talking about going to war for Estonia. Then Poland. Then comes the conflagration because we didn’t stop Putin at Crimea.

    Since the US is bound by a treaty to defend those countries, our involvement is a given (unless Trump is President, then all bets are off).

    If the West gives Putin your “two week” ultimatum, and he laughs, how do you expect the West, including the US, to
    respond? Commit combat forces to the battlefield?

    Your answer should be “yes.”

    Rip Murdock (6e5f95)

  381. Kevin M is channeling Douglas MacArthur during the Korean War.

    Rip Murdock (6e5f95)

  382. Kevin M is channeling Douglas MacArthur during the Korean War.

    I knew two soldiers who had to fight their way back from Chosen after Truman decided to favor diplomacy over his troops. Those bridges should have been blown. Thousands of US servicemen died because they were not.

    More would have died without Fox Company holding a hill.

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  383. @Kevin M: Where were those bridges (in Korea, in China or over the Yalu River between China and Korea?) and when was this?

    I didn’t know there was an issue over destroying bridges.

    Sammy Finkelman (c2c77e)

  384. Since the US is bound by a treaty to defend those countries, our involvement is a given

    Why should Putin believe that now? And yes, today it would be hard to get him to believe any such ultimatum, but that is only because the last three presidents have been such weenies.

    Obama merely protested in 2014. On Trump’s watch it was all deniable “partisan” activity, which Trump didn’t oppose. In 2022, Biden had an opportunity to draw a line, placing US air power at Ukraine’s disposal as Putin mobilized. Instead, he attempted to get Zelensky to flee.

    That gave Putin the green light where a threat of US involvement would have made him consider the downsides of conflict with the US, but instead we, like Brave Sir Robin, ran away.

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  385. I didn’t know there was an issue over destroying bridges.

    They were over the Yalu

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  386. For a book on the magnificent stand of Fox Company, holding open the Marines’ line of retreat from Chosin, see The Last Stand of Fox Company

    November 1950, the Korean Peninsula: After General MacArthur ignores Mao’s warnings and pushes his UN forces deep into North Korea, his 10,000 First Division Marines find themselves surrounded and hopelessly outnumbered by 100,000 Chinese soldiers near the Chosin Reservoir. Their only chance for survival is to fight their way south through the Toktong Pass, a narrow gorge that will need to be held open at all costs.

    The mission is handed to Captain William Barber and the 234 Marines of Fox Company, a courageous but undermanned unit of the First Marines. Barber and his men climb seven miles of frozen terrain to a rocky promontory overlooking the pass, where they will endure four days and five nights of nearly continuous Chinese attempts to take Fox Hill. Amid the relentless violence, three-quarters of Fox’s Marines are killed, wounded, or captured.

    Three MoH were awarded. There is, as you see, some dispute about who was responsible for all those Chinese.

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  387. I heard something on WABC radio show between 5 and 6 pm and don’t know what’s true,

    Guest said that Hezbollah flew a drone over Israel taking pictures (to show they could bomb)

    Israel then bombed and killed the man in charge of HEzbollah’s drones.

    3. Hezbollah fired some things into ISrael.

    4. Israel or its defense minister , said that if war broke out the action against Hezbollah would be terminal and Hezbollah would not survive it and Lebanon would be devastated (or words to that effect)

    5. Hezbollah said if the Israeli Air Force took refuge in Cyprus and bombed Lebanon from there, Hezbollah would consider itself at war with Cyprus,

    6. Guest notes that Turkiye claims northern Cyprus,

    7. Guest says Greece might get involved,

    Houthis claim to have sunka Greek warship but they didn’t. Very little commerce is going through the Suez Canal. Shipowners actually make more money going around Africa (maybe only if insurance requires?)

    Meanwhile a meeting about Iran between US and ISrael has been cancelled because Netanyahu released a video in which he said US was not supplying everything to Israel. This was said in anearlier sepaarate segment of the orogram,

    Sammy Finkelman (c2c77e)

  388. Kevin M (a9545f) — 6/19/2024 @ 3:12 pm

    I doubt there would be any political support among the American public or Congress for direct US intervention during the pre-invasion phase of the Ukraine war. As far as I recall no major politician, of either party, advocated using the Air Force to deter Russia. If the US had “(placed) US air power at Ukraine’s disposal as Putin mobilized”.

    Practically speaking, the US would never place its military at the disposal of a foreign nation, particularly one that is not a NATO member or major ally. The joint military commands with South Korea or NATO are headed by American generals.

    Secondly, the US would certainly have needed to be ready to kill (or be killed by) Russians if Putin called our bluff. And in fact in the end Russia may not have been deterred at all anyway. I’m sure Putin would know that the US would not have attacked the Russian homeland, as that would have been a declaration of war.

    The US has drawn its line, and it’s the border between Ukraine and Poland, Slovakia, Hungary, and Romania.

    Rip Murdock (b10aa6)

  389. Way to argue semantics instead of the idea.

    Secondly, the US would certainly have needed to be ready to kill (or be killed by) Russians if Putin called our bluff.

    Yes, of course. Why does Putin think he can treat us like a paper tiger? Because we are a paper tiger.

    Kevin M (744866)

  390. Meanwhile, Louisiana is requiring classrooms display the Ten Commandments. They claim it’s because they’re foundational documents, but they don’t require the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution or the Bill of Rights.

    Louisiana Requires All Public Classrooms to Display Ten Commandments

    Gov. Jeff Landry signed legislation on Wednesday requiring the display of the Ten Commandments in every public classroom in Louisiana, making the state the only one with such a mandate and reigniting the debate over how porous the boundary between church and state should be.

    Critics, including the American Civil Liberties Union and the Freedom From Religion Foundation, vowed a legal fight against the law they deemed “blatantly unconstitutional.” But it is a battle that proponents are prepared, and in many ways, eager, to take on.

    “I can’t wait to be sued,” Mr. Landry said on Saturday at a Republican fund-raiser in Nashville, according to The Tennessean. And on Wednesday, as he signed the measure, he argued that the Ten Commandments contained valuable lessons for students.

    “If you want to respect the rule of law,” he said, “you’ve got to start from the original law giver, which was Moses.”

    Kevin M (744866)

  391. While I understand this, I think it’s a terrible idea and by itself unconstitutional. There is some place for the Commandments in a larger discussion of Law and government, but this is pretty much an in-your-face attempt to see what the Supremes might allow.

    Kevin M (744866)

  392. As for Ukraine, there is substantial tension among “We must stop Russia here, or Putin will attack NATO next”, “We won’t put Americans in harms way” and “We’ll fight for every inch of NATO land.”

    I suspect those who argue all these points will be the first to say “we can’t take the risk” when he attacks the Baltic states. Unless of course Trump is president and caves to Putin, in which case they’ll be all gung ho.

    Kevin M (744866)

  393. 390 What that guest said falls apart when he mentions Cyprus. He also said something even more incredible: That he hoped Trump would visit Iran like he visited North Korea, Trump did not go into North Korea, not by more than a few inches anyway. He met Kim Jong Un in Singapore and in Panmunjon in the DMZ where it is always 1953,

    Sammy Finkelman (c2c77e)

  394. I heard on the CBS Evening News that they think it could be constitutional because the money for the plaques will be raised by private donation, But if it is privately paid for, how can it be required?

    Sammy Finkelman (c2c77e)

  395. there is substantial tension among “We must stop Russia here, or Putin will attack NATO next”, “We won’t put Americans in harms way” and “We’ll fight for every inch of NATO land.”

    Welll, it makes sense if you add “we can stop Putin in Ukraine without using American troops.”

    Sammy Finkelman (c2c77e)

  396. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

    In Gitlow v. New York the SCOTUS decided holding that the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution had extended the First Amendment’s provisions to apply to the governments of U.S. states

    As decided in Trump v. Anderson before the SCOTUS this year in enforcing these rights as defined by the 1st and 14th Amendment.

    “The terms of the Amendment speak only to enforcement by Congress, which enjoys power to enforce the Amendment through legislation pursuant to Section 5. This can hardly come as a surprise, given that the substantive provisions of the Amendment “embody significant limitations on state authority.” Fitzpatrick v. Bitzer, 427 U. S. 445, 456 (1976). Under the Amendment, States cannot abridge privileges or immunities, deprive persons of life, liberty, or property without due process, deny equal protection, or deny male inhabitants the right to vote (without thereby suffering reduced representation in the House). See Amdt. 14, §§1, 2. On the other hand, the Fourteenth Amendment grants new power to Congress to enforce the provisions of the Amendment against the States.”

    Colonel Klink (ret) (96f56a)

  397. Way to argue semantics instead of the idea.

    Secondly, the US would certainly have needed to be ready to kill (or be killed by) Russians if Putin called our bluff.

    Yes, of course. Why does Putin think he can treat us like a paper tiger? Because we are a paper tiger.

    Kevin M (744866) — 6/19/2024 @ 7:12 pm

    Similar to how the US left out South Korea when it drew its defensive line around Japan after WW II (which allowed the USSR and China to encourage North Korea to invade the South), the fact that NATO didn’t immediately allow Ukraine as a member encouraged Russia’s invasion.

    I don’t think you will see “who lost Ukraine” from the Republicans. As I’ve pointed out before, polls show little interest in Ukraine as an important issue among Americans. They are more concerned about immigration, the economy, and crime.

    “Coulda woulda shoulda” arguments are a waste of time. You can’t change the past.

    Rip Murdock (b10aa6)

  398. Trump ready to hang another scalp conservative bob good losing to trumpster populist. Down goes good!

    asset (939a56)

  399. Here’s a post by the estimable Beldar, refuting the obscene comparison, made here by NJRob and by countless MAGA faithful elsewhere, between Alvin Bragg’s prosecution of Donald Trump and the Soviet purges under Lavrentiy Beria. If I missed that someone else already pointed to Beldar’s post, apologies for the duplication.

    H/T: our host on Twitter.

    lurker (c23034)

  400. I heard on the CBS Evening News that they think it could be constitutional because the money for the plaques will be raised by private donation,

    Hillbilly reasoning and jailhouse lawyering of the kind that had Bill Clinton claiming that what he and Monica Lewinsky were doing was not sex. Louisiana does share a border with Arkansas.

    nk (bb1548)

  401. They already promote religious symbols of leftist faith all the time. I don’t see the issue.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  402. Bragg campaigned in 2021 promising to continue trying to hold Trump “accountable,” noting that in the New York attorney general’s office he had sued Trump “more than a hundred times.” In 2023, seven years after a particular Trump misbehavior, but just in time to influence this year’s election, Bragg indicted Trump for “34” felonies. One dead misdemeanor (falsifying business records; the statute of limitations has long since expired) was resuscitated and carved into 34 slices. These were inflated into felonies by claiming they were done to facilitate a crime. (Bragg often has a progressive’s penchant for reducing felonies to misdemeanors — e.g., some first-degree robberies are now charged as petty larcenies.) Bragg says:

    George Will

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  403. The “foundational documents” claim is even more risible. Louisiana was a colony of France, which said France was the birthplace of The Inquisition (yes, that “The Inquisition), founded under and named after Louis XIV who may or may not have been persecuting the followers of Moses (if there were any left in France by then), but was definitely persecuting the followers of Martin Luther and John Calvin having revoked the Edict of Nantes.

    nk (bb1548)

  404. Don’t you know, lurker, that Beldar is now a “leftist source”, maybe even a “moby”, for standing athwart the Orange Felon.

    Paul Montagu (0cdb7f)

  405. NJRob–

    How do you feel about the Espionage Act charges in Florida and how the judge is stringing things out there?

    Seriously, if Trump-appointed judges didn’t spend so much time putting the brakes on other charges that should be heard before the election, these New York charges would have been delayed, perhaps indefinitely. People who play games with the law consistently have things like this happen to them. See also that great American, Al Capone.

    Appalled (f40950)

  406. I heard on the CBS Evening News that they think it could be constitutional because the money for the plaques will be raised by private donation, But if it is privately paid for, how can it be required?

    Sammy Finkelman (c2c77e) — 6/19/2024 @ 7:29 pm

    The source of funding is irrelevant; it’s the fact that the 10 Commandments are posted in public schools. Louisiana knows this, and they are inviting a constitutional challenge.

    Supporters of the law, in defending the measure, have leaned on the 2022 US Supreme Court decision in Kennedy v. Bremerton School District, which gave a high school football coach his job back after he was disciplined over a controversy involving prayer on the field. The Supreme Court ruled that the coach’s prayers amounted to private speech, protected by the First Amendment, and could not be restricted by the school district.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  407. Putting on the brakes is what? Allowing objections and due process?

    NJRob (4a7021)

  408. the obscene comparison, made here by NJRob and by countless MAGA faithful elsewhere, between Alvin Bragg’s prosecution of Donald Trump and the Soviet purges under Lavrentiy Beria

    They are not directly comparable of course. Neither in substance or degree. The only similarity is in that the defendant was identified before the crime was found. After that there is quite a lot of divergence.

    The most risible thing about this case was not this, however. It was the NY law that gives the prosecution so much latitude on escalating (limitation-expired) misdemeanors into felonies, and fuzziness about the required proof. Stalin and Beria were not big on “proof.”

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  409. @403:

    I really should remark about the stereotypes here, but I won’t because it’s so spot-on.

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  410. The “foundational documents” claim is even more risible. Louisiana was a colony of France

    And where is Code Napoleon in all this?

    This is just a legal troll, intending to see how that decision on a coach leading prayers before a game can be extended. A more incremental approach would have included hymn-singing in class or something.

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  411. Kevin M., the self-appointed scold.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  412. Today’s Supreme Court opinions roundup:

    In Moore v. United States, the court rules 7-2 that the 2017 “mandatory repatriation tax,” which required taxpayers who owned shares in foreign corporations to pay a one-time tax on their share of the corporation’s earnings, does not violate the Constitution.

    The court rules 6-3 in Chiaverini v. City of Napoleon that valid criminal charges do not create a categorical bar on a subsequent malicious prosecution claim.

    In a victory for federal prosecutors, the court rules (6-3) in Diaz v. United States that expert testimony that ‘most people” have a particular mental state is not an opinion about the defendant and therefore does not violate federal evidentiary rules.

    In Gonzalez v. Trevino, the court (in an unsigned per curiam decision, with a dissent by Justice Thomas) agrees with Sylvia Gonzalez that requiring her to provide examples of people who also mishandled a government petition but were not arrested “goes too far” in her suit alleging that she was arrested in retaliation for speech protected by the First Amendment.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  413. U.S. Redirects Air-Defense Missile Deliveries to Ukraine

    The Biden administration will rush the delivery of air-defense interceptors to Ukraine by halting delivery to allied nations, the White House said.

    President Biden hinted at the move last week during the Group of Seven meeting in Italy, saying, “We let it be known to those countries that are expecting from us air-defense systems in the future that they’re going to have to wait.”
    ……….
    While the administration wouldn’t say how many interceptors it would send, a senior U.S. official said Ukraine would be given priority over the next 16 months, and the missiles would be delivered to Kyiv as they come off the assembly line. Ukraine will receive interceptors for both Patriots and the National Advanced Surface-to-Air Missile System, or Nasams.
    …………
    Among the nations that had contracts to buy interceptors and likely will be affected are South Korea and the United Arab Emirates, a congressional official said. ………

    Kirby declined to say how many countries were affected by reprioritizing the air-defense deliveries. He said it wouldn’t affect Israel or Taiwan.
    ……….
    On Thursday, Romania said it would also send a Patriot system.
    ……….

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  414. Going down, down, down:

    A weekslong sell-off of Trump Media picked up speed Thursday afternoon, with shares of former President Donald Trump’s company falling around 13% in another volatile trading session.

    The company behind the conservative social media app Truth Social, which appears on the Nasdaq as DJT, was trading at around $27.50 per share at midday.

    That price is more than 40% lower than it stood at the start of June, when Trump Media stock cost just over $49 a share.

    The company’s declining price comes during a period of massive trading activity. More than 8.3 million shares of Trump Media had already changed hands as of noon ET on Thursday, a figure that is more than double its average volume and highly unusual for a company that generates very little revenue.
    ………..
    Trump’s 114,750,000 shares in the company, worth more than $5.6 billion at the beginning of the month, would be worth around $3.2 billion based on Thursday’s stock moves.
    ………

    As of this moment, DJT is down nearly 14.5% (at $26.80 per share) on a trading volume of more than 10 million shares.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  415. Two judges in the 11th Circuit, one of them a GW Bush-appointed chief judge, urged Aileen Cannon to not accept the criminal case against the ex-president who appointed her.

    But Judge Cannon, who was appointed by Mr. Trump, wanted to keep the case and refused the judges’ entreaties. Her assignment raised eyebrows because she has scant trial experience and had previously shown unusual favor to Mr. Trump by intervening in a way that helped him in the criminal investigation that led to his indictment, only to be reversed in a sharply critical rebuke by a conservative appeals court panel.

    Paul Montagu (d4d407)

  416. #411

    Oh dear, NJRob. You do have a unique vision of what Cannon is doing:

    https://www.msnbc.com/deadline-white-house/deadline-legal-blog/aileen-cannon-trump-classified-documents-trial-rcna155847

    And why must the court spend so long pondering Trump’s belief that, as far as any criminality is concerned, he is immune from everything?

    You sound like one of those GOP Senators on a news show when asked about acceptance of the 2024 election results.

    Appalled (f40950)

  417. I forgot Sutherland was in this 1978 classic.

    BTW, he was great in Pride & Prejudice.
    I just finished watching Bass Reeves on Paramount, and I couldn’t help noticing how aged he looked.
    RIP.

    Paul Montagu (d4d407)

  418. Thanks, Paul, I was trying to remember where I’d seen him recently.

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  419. Don’t you know, lurker, that Beldar is now a “leftist source”, maybe even a “moby”, for standing athwart the Orange Felon.

    Thanks for the heads up. Being one myself, you’d think I’d recognize my fellow mobys, but no deal. For example, I could have sworn George Will was a leftist water carrier to be assiduously ignored. Today apparently he’s as impartial and trustworthy as Aileen Cannon. I need a moby scorecard.

    lurker (c23034)

  420. “Harmless error” may satisfy Federal minimal due process requirements, but States may choose to hold their prosecutors to a stricter standard and make prosecutorial misconduct reversible error per se without need for the defendant to show actual prejudice.

    And, of course, the courts struggle with both approaches. We saw that with Trump’s Atlanta case. That’s why they get paid to wear the black robe and pound the the little wooden hammer.

    nk (bb1548)

  421. It may have made a difference (contrary to the opinion Beldar quotes) if there was a risk that the case would be dropped, which is areal risk these days. The prosecutor running for re-election however may have been misleading the voters about that. The case presentation itself apparently showed nothing wrong possibly because the elected official was not personally involved in any case.

    But creating a case against Donald Trump is not the main part of his appeal. It’s that no crime was alleged or an insufficient description of the crime.

    Bragg did say something in an interview. But while it may be the case he set out to indict Trump for something that’s not really grounds for appeal independent of the merits of the case.

    The real story is how Bragg dropped what the people who worked for him [- who went to work for him just to prosecute Trump thought was a good criminal case (evaluation of property worth) and went for this one. It was probably Matthew Colangelo, “who joined Bragg’s prosecution team after having worked at that Justice Department and the New York attorney general’s office, where he investigated the Trump Foundation. ” who selected this case I think maybe because it would not threaten to create a precedent for some political donors. It was unique to Trump.

    https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/manhattan-da-bragg-secured-trump-conviction-testify-gop-led-judiciary-rcna15656

    I don;t think there was collusion between DOJ and Bragg. I think there wass collusion between Democratic political operatives and Bragg – amd also with Fani Willis.

    Sammy FInkelman (e4ef09)

  422. Appalled (f40950) — 6/20/2024 @ 11:46 am

    And why must the court spend so long pondering Trump’s belief that, as far as any criminality is concerned, he is immune from everything?

    They don’t want to ponder that. Aware that anything they rule could be a precedent, they want to work out just where there is immunity and where there is not.

    They should say there is immunity for official acts unless there is an allegation of a dishonest motive (like being bribed to make an appointment) which must be proven.

    Sammy FInkelman (e4ef09)

  423. “Harmless error” may satisfy Federal minimal due process requirements, but States may choose to hold their prosecutors to a stricter standard and make prosecutorial misconduct reversible error per se without need for the defendant to show actual prejudice.

    OK, but for purposes of the alleged misconduct in question, it’s academic. As Beldar explained, there was no misconduct, since Bragg never expressed the intention to prosecute, imprison or otherwise “get” Trump, of which he’s accused. Saying anything at all about Trump’s case was imprudent, but expressing an intention to continue his predecessor’s investigation and follow the facts where they lead, while affirmatively refusing to predict where that might be, is hardly improper.

    lurker (c23034)

  424. RIP Donald Sutherland (88):

    Donald Sutherland, an actor with cross-generational appeal who starred in hits including “M*A*S*H” and the “Hunger Games” movie franchise, has died, (Kiefer Sutherland) said Thursday. He was 88.
    ……….
    The Canadian actor had a career that spanned seven decades. His big break came in the 1967 film “The Dirty Dozen,” where he played one of a dozen convicted murderers sent to assassinate German officers during World War II.
    ………
    Other films include “Invasion of the Body Snatchers” and “Animal House,” both in 1978, and “Buffy the Vampire Slayer” in 1992.

    To younger audiences, he was known for his turn as the antagonist President Snow in the “Hunger Games” franchise from 2012 to 2015.

    He said in 2012, “I’ve made over 130 films and I loved every role I’ve ever played, even the tyrannical villains.”
    ……..

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  425. Donald Sutherland was great in HBO’s The Undoing, which came out a mere four years ago. He played the father of Nicole Kidman’s character.

    norcal (6f0bd9)

  426. I liked his role in “Dirty Sexy Money” a fine show done in by a writer’s strike.

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  427. Pinto: OK, so that means that our whole solar system could be like one tiny atom in the fingernail of some other giant being Giggle. This is nuts! That means that one tiny atom in my fingernail could be…

    Jennings: …could be one tiny little universe!

    Pinto: Can I buy some pot from you?

    [Handed his first joint]

    Pinto: I won’t go schizo, will I?

    Jennings: It’s a distinct possibility.

    lurker (c23034)

  428. @415 Thats my job! By the way down goes bob good va.-5 Trump gets another conservative scalp!

    asset (0f6ed7)

  429. @433 Good! Bragg should be prosecuting trumpsters for sedition and insurrection!

    asset (0f6ed7)

  430. https://hotair.com/karen-townsend/2024/06/21/two-illegal-aliens-from-venezuela-rape-and-kill-12-year-old-girl-in-houston-n3790670

    Biden’s illegal alien invasion continues to pay dividends by raping and murdering.

    How many more need to be sacrificed on the altar of open borders?

    NJRob (ae9ae5)

  431. Good! Bragg should be prosecuting trumpsters for sedition and insurrection!

    asset (0f6ed7) — 6/21/2024 @ 3:23 am

    You support leftist terrorism. We know that already.

    NJRob (ae9ae5)

  432. @436 leftist terrorism is anything you disagree with.

    asset (a52307)


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