Patterico's Pontifications

5/22/2024

More EU Members To Recognize A Palestinian State

Filed under: General — Dana @ 7:08 am



[guest post by Dana]

Three member-states of the United Nations have announced that they plan to recognize a Palestinian state:

Ireland, Spain and Norway announced on Wednesday that they would recognise a Palestinian state on May 28, saying they hoped other Western countries would follow suit, prompting Israel to recall its ambassadors.

The individual leaders explained their reasoning for the decision:

Spain’s Prime Minister Pedro Sanchez said the move was aimed at accelerating efforts to secure a ceasefire in Israel’s war with Hamas in Gaza.

“We hope that our recognition and our reasons contribute to other western countries following this path, because the more we are, the more strength we will have to impose a ceasefire, to achieve the release of the hostages held by Hamas, to relaunch the political process that can lead to a peace agreement,” he said in a speech to the country’s lower house.

Ireland’s Prime Minister Simon Harris…added that Ireland was unequivocal in recognising Israel’s right to exist “securely and in peace with its neighbours”, and calling for all hostages in Gaza to be immediately returned.

In Oslo, Norwegian Prime Minister Jonas Gahr Store said the only possible political solution between Israelis and Palestinians is “two states living side by side in peace and security”.

Both Norway and Ireland referenced the 1967 borders.

As you can imagine, Israel was less than pleased with the decisions.

And speaking of a “two-state solution,” I read this with great interest:

So you want to recognize the state of Palestine? By all means. Go ahead. Just make sure to note that since Palestine is a state, no-one living in it is or can be or will be recognized by your country as a “refugee from Palestine”, that you are therefore defunding UNRWA, that there is no such thing as a “right of return” into another sovereign state in which one has never been a citizen or ever lived.

If you’re not ready to so as a package, then please don’t pretend that the purpose of recognizing Palestine is to promote “a two state solution”. Given that there was never a moment in the last century when there was an Arab Palestinian vision of peace and two states where one of the states is Jewish – which means acceptance that no-one is a “refugee from Palestine” when already living there or as citizens of Jordan and other countries, and that there is no such “right of return” into the territory of the sovereign state of Israel of people who were never its citizens – then now might be a great time to start clarifying that.

A recognition of a state of Palestine is a great way to finally clarify – is the other state in the “two state solution” the Jewish state of Israel? Or, is it, as Palestinians continue to believe, a temporary aberration that will revert to being Arab in due course?It is high time to ensure that any vision of peace by two states means that one of these two state is Jewish. And if not, it would be nice to finally know that your country recognizes Palestine because it believes that “from water to water Palestine will be Arab” – the original Arab version of “From the River to the Sea” – and that there is no room for Jewish sovereignty anywhere. Precisely the vision that animated Hamas October 7th attack and the continued support it enjoys among Palestinians. If this is why your country is recognizing Palestine, it would be a good time for Israel to finally know that.

If not, if you genuinely believe in a two-state solution where one of the two is Jewish, then get off your bum and make it clear – that recognition of Palestine comes with a strong declaration and policy that no-one living in it is or can be or will be recognized by your country as a “refugee from Palestine”, that you are therefore defunding UNRWA, that there is no such thing as a “right of return” into another sovereign state in which one has never been a citizen or ever lived. Then we’ll know you’re serious. Anything else is lazy virtue signaling, worthy of an Anthropology student in the US, not a government of a proper country.

—Dana

17 Responses to “More EU Members To Recognize A Palestinian State”

  1. Hello.

    It seems there is a big (and wishful thinking) assumption being made that Palestine wants a two-state solution. I think, to the contrary.

    Dana (8e902f)

  2. Absolutely correct there.

    This x-user einatwilf nailed it.

    Both Hamas and Israel has to want a two-state solution. It takes two to tango…

    whembly (86df54)

  3. The two state solution has essentially been rejected in left wing circles. The left likes to compare the palestinian authority to the fake states that were created when South Africa was trying to retain white rule. This is why our college kids believe such utterly stupid things.

    Hamas is not Palestine — it is the ruling political machine in Gaza. Like Nazis and ISIS they have to lose early, often and hard to realize they aren’t going to get what they want, EVER. As long as they hope for final victory over democratic weaklings, they will continue to push their evil maximalist solutions.

    Appalled (aa0edd)

  4. Hamas still wants a one-state solution, a Palestinian state where the Israeli state no longer exists.

    Paul Montagu (40b0d6)

  5. Israel does not want a two-state solution, and I don’t believe Palestinians do either. Of course, the west sees that as the only option and almost has to because there doesn’t seem to be any other avenue towards some kind of peace. But honestly, I don’t think the two states solution is going to be any kind of solution at all because It would be so complicated on the Palestinian side (who is on charge, Who makes sure that they are not still working in conjunction with terrorist, why does anyone think that Hamas would willingly step back or stand down, who are the gatekeepers?).

    Dana (7f4079)

  6. The current government of Israel has core members that want a single Greater Israel encompassing no less than Israel, the West Bank, the Golan Heights and Gaza. Some of them are quite open about the “need” to remove Arabs from their land.

    And of course Hamas, etc, have been open about their similar plans. The difference? Israel has to power to do it, has had that power for quite some time, and has (mostly) not done so.

    A two-state solution can work, but not if the other state is run by the Palestinians who have no moderation left in them. It would have to be a protectorate of an Arab state with too much to lose by effing around. I don’t see that happening — those few Arab states don’t want the risk and our administration is a bunch of short-term thinking ward heelers.

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  7. who is on charge, Who makes sure that they are not still working in conjunction with terrorist, why does anyone think that Hamas would willingly step back or stand down, who are the gatekeepers?

    It would have to be the Saudis. They have both the carrot and the stick.

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  8. who is on charge, Who makes sure that they are not still working in conjunction with terrorist, why does anyone think that Hamas would willingly step back or stand down, who are the gatekeepers?

    It would have to be the Saudis. They have both the carrot and the stick.

    Kevin M (a9545f) — 5/22/2024 @ 11:19 am

    Saudi Arabia, or any other Arab state, doesn’t want to be seen riding into Gaza on the back of an Israeli tank. Their self-interests don’t include Gaza.

    Arab nations’ reluctance to commit to providing troops or funding for Gaza was clear immediately after Blinken’s remarks (at the World Economic Forum meeting in Riyadh), when the foreign ministers of Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia said that before they would agree to participate in any peacekeeping operation, there must be clarity on the pathway to a Palestinian state. They cited the scale of devastation in Gaza and the possibility that foreign forces would be seen as new occupiers without a viable plan for lasting peace.

    Saudi Foreign Minister Prince Faisal bin Farhan al-Saud declined to say whether his country would contribute to a security force without a commitment to a two-state solution from Israel, a notion that would require the government of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to reverse its position.
    ……….
    Most significant, Netanyahu’s far-right government remains opposed to a Palestinian state and the ceding of territory, potentially dooming the agreement that Israel’s closest ally, the United States, is seeking to clinch.

    Egyptian Foreign Minister Sameh Shoukry acknowledged his country’s willingness to take part — with a big caveat.

    “Of course, we’re willing to play a role fully in whatever [form] it takes,” he said. “But that role and what we will accept in terms of risks and rewards will be subject to the overall evaluation of the end result and whether it is consistent with our aims.”
    ……….
    Most significant, Netanyahu’s far-right government remains opposed to a Palestinian state and the ceding of territory, potentially dooming the agreement that Israel’s closest ally, the United States, is seeking to clinch.

    Egyptian Foreign Minister Sameh Shoukry acknowledged his country’s willingness to take part — with a big caveat.

    “Of course, we’re willing to play a role fully in whatever [form] it takes,” he said. “But that role and what we will accept in terms of risks and rewards will be subject to the overall evaluation of the end result and whether it is consistent with our aims.”

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  9. Sorry for the repetition in post 8. It should read:

    who is on charge, Who makes sure that they are not still working in conjunction with terrorist, why does anyone think that Hamas would willingly step back or stand down, who are the gatekeepers?

    It would have to be the Saudis. They have both the carrot and the stick.

    Kevin M (a9545f) — 5/22/2024 @ 11:19 am

    Saudi Arabia, or any other Arab state, doesn’t want to be seen riding into Gaza on the back of an Israeli tank. Their self-interests don’t include Gaza.

    Arab nations’ reluctance to commit to providing troops or funding for Gaza was clear immediately after Blinken’s remarks (at the World Economic Forum meeting in Riyadh), when the foreign ministers of Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia said that before they would agree to participate in any peacekeeping operation, there must be clarity on the pathway to a Palestinian state. They cited the scale of devastation in Gaza and the possibility that foreign forces would be seen as new occupiers without a viable plan for lasting peace.

    Saudi Foreign Minister Prince Faisal bin Farhan al-Saud declined to say whether his country would contribute to a security force without a commitment to a two-state solution from Israel, a notion that would require the government of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to reverse its position.
    ……….
    ………Hamas is likely to survive as an insurgent group. Most significant, Netanyahu’s far-right government remains opposed to a Palestinian state and the ceding of territory, potentially dooming the agreement that Israel’s closest ally, the United States, is seeking to clinch.

    Egyptian Foreign Minister Sameh Shoukry acknowledged his country’s willingness to take part — with a big caveat.

    “Of course, we’re willing to play a role fully in whatever [form] it takes,” he said. “But that role and what we will accept in terms of risks and rewards will be subject to the overall evaluation of the end result and whether it is consistent with our aims.”
    ……….

    In my opinion, it is too soon to talk about what will happen after the current Israel-Hamas War. This war will continue at least into 2025.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  10. The holdup on Arab participation are the West Bank settlements, all of which would have to go, and Likud cannot even consider slowing their increase. They will wait for Likud to fall.

    Kevin M (a9545f)

  11. There is an interesting video out there of a Palestinian flag rolled out before the kick off of an Iranian soccer game and people go all Philadelphia and start booing and some yelling “stuff that flag up your a**”

    steveg (c7df5c)

  12. The holdup on Arab participation are the West Bank settlements, all of which would have to go, and Likud cannot even consider slowing their increase. They will wait for Likud to fall.

    Kevin M (a9545f) — 5/22/2024 @ 12:01 pm

    And a separate Palestinian country.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  13. There was a science fiction story from the 1980s I cannot find. It is written in the Rudyard Kipling style. You have a clearly Hindi family conversing. The youngest child asks his mother to tell the story of how they came to their new home.

    The mother tells of the people who lived there, fighting constantly over things that seemed to make no sense. Finally, the “White Queen” said enough, and threw everyone out, allowing new folks to create a bit of Hind in this green and gracious land. It took much gold and many tears, but it happened.

    “But what is this place called,” asked the child.

    “Why, New Hindustan,” replied the mother.

    “No, no, the old name, the funny one.”

    “Oh,” replied the mother. “Northern Ireland.”

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  14. It could help people think clearer to say there is a state of Palestine.

    Sammy Finkelman (e4ef09)

  15. It could help people think clearer to say there is a state of Palestine.

    Sammy Finkelman (e4ef09) — 5/22/2024 @ 2:44 pm

    Only in their imagination.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  16. The current government of Israel has core members that want a single Greater Israel encompassing no less than Israel, the West Bank, the Golan Heights and Gaza. Some of them are quite open about the “need” to remove Arabs from their land.

    Meir Kahane was prescient

    In some of his writings, Kahane argued that Israel should never start a war for territory but that if a war were launched against Israel, Biblical territory should be annexed.[81] However, in an interview, he defined Israel’s “minimal borders” as follows: “The southern boundary goes up to El Arish, which takes in all of northern Sinai, including Yamit. To the east, the frontier runs along the western part of the East Bank of the Jordan River, hence part of what is now Jordan. Eretz Yisrael also includes part of Lebanon and certain parts of Syria, and part of Iraq, all the way to the Euphrates River.”[79] When critics suggested that following Kahane’s plans would mean a perpetual war between Jews and Arabs, Kahane responded, “There will be a perpetual war. With or without Kahane.”[82]

    “From the River to the Sea, Israel needs to be Muslim free.”

    Ex Pat (b80dfd)

  17. Palestinian state on the west bank good idea unless you want Israel’s likud party to steal it. Gaza as I have said many times egyptian control is the only workable solution which will cost $$$ to make them do it.

    asset (1fba3e)

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