Patterico's Pontifications

12/8/2023

Weekend Open Thread

Filed under: General — Dana @ 11:07 am



[guest post by Dana]

Let’s go!

First news item

Sen. John Fetterman irks both sides of the aisle over his reasonable statements on the border. This after he angered Democrats for his unequivocal support of Israel:

As stalled immigration negotiations imperil U.S. aid to Ukraine and Israel, Sen. John Fetterman (D-Pa.) is blaming not only Republicans but also members of his own party for what he described as a reflexive political resistance to a border security deal.

“I hope Democrats can understand that it isn’t xenophobic to be concerned about the border,” Fetterman said in an interview. “It’s a reasonable conversation, and Democrats should engage.”

Fetterman…urged Democrats to acknowledge the large numbers of migrants streaming across the southern border. He cited the nearly 270,000 border encounters that U.S. Customs and Border Protection reported in September.

“Honestly, it’s astonishing. And this isn’t a Fox News kind of statistic. This is the government’s,” he said. “You essentially have Pittsburgh showing up there at the border.”

About the crisis at the Southern border:

Second news item

Drink our coffee but if you have to use the bathroom and are a Jew, forget about it:

California coffee shop workers were filmed denying a Jewish customer access to the restroom after she complained it was filled with antisemitic graffiti — telling her “Free Palestine” and accusing her of wanting to use the facilities because “Israel loves taking private property and saying it’s their own.”

Three employees at Farley’s East in Oakland stood in front of the bathroom and told a distressed-sounding woman filming them that she had to leave.

“I want to go in the restroom,” the woman repeatedly implores the staffers, who tell her it’s private property even while confirming she was a customer who’d eaten there.

A male staffer then smiles as he tells her: “I know Israel loves taking private property and saying it’s their own, but we gotta have … ”

As the woman again says that she “was a patron here and I have a right to go into the restroom,” the man replies, “And we have a right to refuse service.”

When an employee of a neighboring business steps in to offer the use of her company’s bathroom next door, the woman filming replies firmly: “No, I want to use this one. I should not be excluded and other people allowed.”

Third news item

United Nations’ Secretary General Antonio Guterres officially requests a “humanitarian ceasefire” be declared:

Israel responds:

Israel’s U.N. Ambassador Gilad Erdan said the secretary-general invoked Article 99 to pressure Israel, accusing the U.N. chief of “a new moral low” and “bias against Israel.” “The secretary-general’s call for a ceasefire is actually a call to keep Hamas’ reign of terror in Gaza,” Erdan said in a statement.

How is Erdan wrong?

Fourth news item

Ousted speaker of the House announced he is resigning from Congress:

Former House Speaker Kevin McCarthy, who was ousted from his role by a faction of his own party earlier this year, will resign from Congress at the end of the month, he said on Wednesday.

“I have decided to depart the House at the end of this year to serve America in new ways,” McCarthy wrote in an op-ed published in The Wall Street Journal. “I know my work is only getting started.”

A report from the Los Angeles Times provides a further look into McCarthy’s spending habits. Although legal, it is nonetheless revealing:

Rambling above the rust-colored cliffs of the Palos Verdes Peninsula, the Terranea Resort is known for its ocean views, world-ranked spa and villas that can command $3,000 a night or more.

From 2012 through last June, McCarthy’s PAC shelled out more than $1 million on hotels, private air travel and eateries, the FEC records show. That’s more than double the combined total spent by the leadership PACs of the seven other lawmakers who’ve held the top House and Senate positions for their parties during all or part of that period, according to the Times analysis.

Leadership PACs are subject to fewer spending controls than other campaign accounts. In fact, the FEC determined earlier this year that those committees are free to use their money on personal expenses, without limits…

The Terranea outlays by McCarthy’s leadership PAC totaled about $124,000 over a 2 ½-year stretch ending in 2018, a period during which he served as House majority leader. In the same time, a second McCarthy committee rang up bills of about $116,000 at the hotel compound. The combined $240,000 pencils out to an average of $8,000 a month.

Fifth news item

President Biden in a bind about Ukraine and Israel aid tied to U.S. border:

When President Joe Biden sent his request to Congress last month for aid to Ukraine and Israel, he included a request for more money to help with security at the border with Mexico, a sweetener intended to both address a crisis and win over support of Republicans.

But the move has now left Biden in a box.

On Thursday, however, Senate Republicans showed no sign of backing down.

Senior Biden administration officials have told both sides in the negotiations that the White House is open to making it more difficult to gain asylum in the United States, according to four people familiar with the matter. One such measure would impose a stricter definition for migrants to meet when they claim they need refuge because they fear persecution in their home countries.

But Republicans say that is not enough. They want the United States to impose policies that would make most migrants ineligible for asylum and require them to wait in Mexico until their case is processed.

The impasse has left the heart of Biden’s foreign policy — support for the war in Ukraine — hanging in the balance.

Meanwhile, Ukraine continues to defend against Putin’s invasion, for its own sake and for the sake of the free world:

Possible fallout if a deal isn’t done by the end of next week, for uh, less than noble reasons:

If there is a deal, it must be hammered out by next Friday, which lawmakers appear to regard as the drop-dead date because getting out of town for the holiday break is the highest priority. Still, I maintain that it would be the height of irresponsibility if Republicans balk at appropriating funds for lethal aid to support Ukraine’s war. Not only is it an abdication of America’s duty to provide for its own security as one of its most reckless antagonists marches through Europe, it would also save Joe Biden’s bacon.

Biden has throttled lethal aid to Ukraine from the outset of Russia’s second invasion. He has hemmed and hawed and given in to Ukraine’s request for this platform or that long past the point at which it would have meant the difference on the battlefield. Biden would love to outsource the consequences of his reluctance to Republicans, and he will do just that if the GOP fails to support the popular Ukrainian cause. Congressional Republicans shouldn’t give Biden the out he wants.

Sixth news item

The man who would be king gives Americans a look at his priorities. Same as every other one: I’M A VICTIM!!!:

All of these Biden “Political Opponent” Lawsuits against me could have been brought 3 years ago, but the slimeballs brought them right in the middle of my very successful campaign for President. The J6 Fake Case, where the Obama appointed, Trump Hating Judge, Tanya S. Chutkan, actually had the audacity to schedule the trial THE DAY BEFORE SUPER TUESDAY (always considered the biggest of all Primary days), has been put into serious question when most of the Unselect Committee’s evidence was deleted and destroyed. This illegal act, that would have shown the GUILT of Crazy Nancy Pelosi, and others, should end this Biden Witch Hunt. Our FAILING NATION is now becoming a BANANA REPUBLIC. MAGA!

Meanwhile, Trump managed to perk up the ears of everyone who fears a second Trump presidency with his latest comments to Sean Hannity:

As Donald Trump faces growing scrutiny over his increasingly authoritarian and violent rhetoric, Fox News host Sean Hannity gave his longtime friend a chance to assure the American people that he wouldn’t abuse power or seek retribution if he wins a second term.

But instead of offering a perfunctory answer brushing off the warnings, Trump stoked the fire.

“Except for day one,” the GOP front-runner said Tuesday night before a live audience in Davenport, Iowa. “I want to close the border, and I want to drill, drill, drill.”

P.S. Imagine if Trump were to win the election, what his staff might look like

Seventh news item

This is gut-wrenching and horrific, but I think it’s a must-read. Especially for Western feminists who continue to remain silent about the vicious sexual abuse of Israeli women on Oct. 7. (By the way, it only took 8 weeks for the the United Nations Women group to finally condemn Hamas for their vile mistreatment of Israeli women on Oct. 7)…

Eighth news item

Liz Cheney on whether she’ll enter the 2024 presidential race:

Former Republican Wyoming Congresswoman Liz Cheney suggested on “CBS Mornings” on Thursday that she won’t mount a third-party presidential run if it helps former President Donald Trump in the 2024 race for the White House.

“I won’t do anything that would help him,” she said, when asked about possibly running as a third-party candidate.

Speaking of Cheney, I am currently halfway through her new book, Oath and Honor: A Memoir and a Warning. It is a riveting examination of the Jan. 6 insurrection, the villains (looking at you, Kevin McCarthy and Mike Johnson), and the dangers of a second Trump presidency. From the prologue:

This is the true story of the moment when American democracy began to unravel. It is the story of the men and women who fought to save it, and of the enablers and collaborators whose actions ensured the threat would grow and metastasize. It is the story of the most dangerous man to inhabit the Oval Office, and of the many steps he took to subvert our Constitution.

Ninth news item

The horrific shooting of three Palestinian friends walking in Vermont over Thanksgiving weekend, has left one of them paralyzed from the chest down, per the victim’s mother:

Hisham Awartani, one of the three Palestinian college students who were shot while walking in Vermont over Thanksgiving weekend, is paralyzed from the chest down after a bullet became lodged in his spine, his mother said…

Awartani and his two longtime friends from the Israeli-occupied West Bank – Kinnan Abdalhamid of Haverford College and Tahseen Ali Ahmad of Trinity College – were out for a walk on Saturday in Burlington, chatting as they often did in English and Arabic, when they were shot, according to Burlington Police Chief Jon Murad. Two of the men were also wearing traditional Palestinian scarves known as keffiyehs at the time of the attack, he said.

In addition to Awartani’s life-altering spinal injury, the two other men were shot in the upper torso and lower extremities and hospitalized in the ICU, according to police. Both of the victims have since been released from the hospital.

Note:

The suspect in the attack, 48-year-old Jason J. Eaton, was arrested Sunday and charged with three counts of attempted murder, to which he has pleaded not guilty. Authorities say they haven’t determined a motive in the attack but have said they are investigating whether the incident was motivated by hate.

Tragic in every way.

–Dana

611 Responses to “Weekend Open Thread”

  1. Hello.

    Dana (932d71)

  2. Dust off the 2013 immigration reform bill from the Gang of Eight, update whatever needs updating, and put it to a vote.

    Sam G (8d2ed1)

  3. RE #9: he’s paralyzed from the chest down, not the waist.

    Sam G (8d2ed1)

  4. No interest in Hunter Biden bring indicted for multiple felonies that the DoJ tried to grant him immunity from?

    NJRob (15296c)

  5. Well, then we’d have to discuss that he’s already paid the back taxed, fees and fines; and that the only reason he’s being charged is his last name is Biden. Anybody else (like Roger Stone) would not be.

    Sam G (8d2ed1)

  6. taxes*

    Sam G (8d2ed1)

  7. Thx, Sam G @ 3.

    Dana (932d71)

  8. Second news item:

    This saddens me. I worked for a company headquartered in downtown Oakland, and when I would go up to the office I enjoyed going to Farley’s East for a pre-work breakfast and coffee. I know Oakland is totally left wing insufferable, but I always thought the people at Farley’s Easy were nice and friendly.

    JVW (b5091e)

  9. “Dust off the 2013 immigration reform bill from the Gang of Eight, update whatever needs updating, and put it to a vote.”

    Democrats would love that. Had that bill passed, it would’ve allowed millions of lawbreakers to jump the line, and 11 years later we would have exactly the same problem we have now. Pass some equivalent of it now and the problem will just get worse. Democrats simply don’t want to solve the problem and, other than bad PR in election years, they have no incentive to.

    As it stands, anyone claiming amnesty gets a work permit that will last years because that’s how long it takes to get a final ruling even if everyone knows the claim is bogus, and most are. Democrats have known this for years and have stonewalled any attempts to address it. This won’t change. They’ll hold it hostage when threatened with stonewalling something they really care about, like every other country’s territorial integrity.

    lloyd (c5e7b9)

  10. “the only reason he’s being charged is his last name is Biden.”

    Democrats and their NeverTrumper fellow travelers had the past seven years to set a good example in this regard. You didn’t. Too bad, that’s what happens.

    lloyd (c5e7b9)

  11. Meanwhile, back in California, Governor Newsom deals with a $68 billion projected deficit as the many new programs started with the influx of pandemic money continue to spend, while the income is back to normal.

    First up to be cut, the $25/hour minimum health worker wage that was announced with such fanfare a few months ago. My prediction: government employers will get a carve-out. But I suspect this won’t make much of a dent.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  12. “the only reason he’s being charged is his last name is Biden.”

    All these years and he never thought to change it, too.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  13. Had that bill passed, it would’ve allowed millions of lawbreakers to jump the line

    What line? By the time the current law has allowed in all the uncles and grandparents and other connected people with legal priority, the entire quota from Mexico is all used up. We INTENTIONALLY import dependents and turn away workers.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  14. Dana,

    That’s the man who would be “Kim” rather than “king” in your Item 6. (As much as I love Sean Connery and Michael Caine)

    Appalled (cdca0a)

  15. Trump Indictment Watch:

    A federal appeals court in Washington, D.C., on Friday upheld but narrowed the gag order that had been imposed on former President Donald Trump in his election interference case prohibiting him from making critical comments about potential witnesses and prosecutors.

    “We agree with the district court that some aspects of Mr. Trump’s public statements pose a significant and imminent threat to the fair and orderly adjudication of the ongoing criminal proceeding, warranting a speech-constraining protective order,” the appeals court ruled. “The district court’s order, however, sweeps in more protected speech than is necessary. For that reason, we affirm the district court’s order in part and vacate it in part.”

    The new version of the gag order bars Trump and his lawyers from making “public statements about known or reasonably foreseeable witnesses concerning their potential participation in the investigation or in this criminal proceeding.”

    It also upheld the section of the order prohibiting Trump and his lawyers from making public statements about lawyers in the case, court staff, special counsel staff or their family members………

    “The record shows that Mr. Trump has repeatedly attacked those involved in this case through threatening public statements, as well as messaging daggered at likely witnesses and their testimony,” the ruling said. “The unique megaphone a defendant wields, amplified by social media, ramps up the risk of public and press reactions and attention capable of altering or swaying witnesses’ participation in the trial or the content of their testimony. The risk is particularly significant that public statements about certain witnesses’ involvement in the case may intimidate other potential witnesses from providing testimony, encourage them to alter their testimony, or dissuade them from cooperating with investigators.”
    ………..
    ……….. “Mr. Trump is a former President and current candidate for the presidency, and there is a strong public interest in what he has to say. But Mr. Trump is also an indicted criminal defendant, and he must stand trial in a courtroom under the same procedures that govern all other criminal defendants. That is what the rule of law means.”
    ………..
    “Delaying the trial date until after the election, as Mr. Trump proposes, would be counterproductive, create perverse incentives, and unreasonably burden the judicial process,” the ruling said.
    ………..

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  16. “the only reason he’s being charged is his last name is Biden.”

    All these years and he never thought to change it, too.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 12/8/2023 @ 12:54 pm

    Hunter should have changed his last name to Trump.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  17. Hunter should have changed his last name to Trump.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 12/8/2023 @ 1:09 pm

    Instead of Chinese money he could have received Arab oil money.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  18. #9 shots fired at synagogue in albany ny thursday. Now their using guns! It will get worse.

    asset (425c6f)

  19. when mr trump gets his rightful mulligan and ascends to power once more, all of those illegal squatters and their squatter children who pretend to be AMERICANS will find themselves waiting for deportation in the relocation camps. that will be a good day to be a white AMERICAN, and a friend of mr trump.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  20. @19 Huey long thought that too. Roosevelt saved america in 1932 from communist revolution and civil war. Folks were storing food in jars in kansas and Iowa for when the communist revolution came as the left was opening up food warehouses to distribute food to the hungry. Read a social history of the machine gun it goes into the general strikes going on and shows the mother jones was a person not just a magazine!

    asset (425c6f)

  21. RIP actor Ryan O’Neal (82). Best known for his roles in What’s Up Doc?, Paper Moon, and Love Story, he played an unconvincing getaway driver in The Driver.

    Rip Murdock (5ad73d)

  22. #9 shots fired at synagogue in albany ny thursday. Now their using guns! It will get worse.

    asset (425c6f) — 12/8/2023 @ 1:17 pm

    The Tree of Life Synagogue massacre was worse; 11 killed and 6 wounded.

    Rip Murdock (5ad73d)

  23. No one was killed or injured in Albany.

    Rip Murdock (5ad73d)

  24. No one was killed or injured in Albany.

    But guns!

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  25. @19 Huey long thought that too. Roosevelt saved america in 1932 from communist revolution and civil war.

    Actually, it was Dr Carl Weiss that saved America. And not a single statue of him anywhere.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  26. Putin’s sends a wet kiss and big spasibo to House Republicans (and flip-floppers like Lindsey Graham) for refusing to pass a deal on military aid to Ukraine. My party isn’t just a cult (well, 60% of it is), they’re on the side of evil and war crimes. Well done. Reagan is spinning in his grave, at high RPMs.

    I’ve talked to Ukrainians who have recently been to the frontline. Their soldiers are outgunned. They have to ration their shots because they don’t have enough ammunition. Putin’s army is killing them every day. The urgency of getting them more ammunition is real. No more politics when lives are at stake.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  27. But guns!

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 12/8/2023 @ 2:54 pm

    Another “prohibited person” gets hold of a gun. How can that happen?

    /s

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  28. Putin’s sends a wet kiss and big spasibo to House Republicans (and flip-floppers like Lindsey Graham) for refusing to pass a deal on military aid to Ukraine.

    Unreliable allies are worse than enemies. But the pathology of the Trump Party goes beyond that. They have no vision, no values, only the peeves of an orange baboon.

    nk (c21586)

  29. Where Are All the Anti-Trump Republicans?

    At a Hoover Institution conference (in Palo Alto) last week…….Sen. Joni Ernst (R-Iowa) …….. said afterward that the former president is dominating the lead-off Iowa caucuses: “It’s all Trump.” Yet Ernst explained she could not intervene to try to stop him in her home state because she’s concerned about “jeopardizing our first in the nation” nominating status.
    ……….
    (Also at Stanford was New Hampshire Gov. Chris Sununu, who) is widely expected to back Nikki Haley. But for all the movement toward Haley in recent weeks, it remains to be seen whether she has the political dexterity and bigness of spirit to forge the disparate coalition needed to even threaten Trump.

    ………She’s yet to call her former South Carolina rival, Sen. Tim Scott, or approach Chris Christie, people familiar with the situation tell me. If Haley is serious about thwarting Trump, she needs to win the backing of her opponents and that means setting aside her resentment toward Scott — a perfunctory text isn’t sufficient — and having a serious conversation with Christie before they fracture the anti-Trump vote in New Hampshire.
    ………
    ……… For all the obsessive coverage about who wealthy GOP donors fancy, it’s Republican primary voters without college degrees who are the defining bloc in this race. Trump’s enduring grip on them is why he’ll be so hard to defeat and why GOP leaders are so reluctant to cross him.
    ………
    But it’s the quiet from so many of the party’s lawmakers, former candidates and biggest names that’s most revealing.
    ………..
    Republicans like (Sen. James Lankford (R-Okla.)) are plainly unenthusiastic about Trump but will avoid weighing in on the primary and then when he wins the nomination offer some version of saying they’ll support the party’s nominee because that’s who the voters selected. Then, should Trump be found guilty of crimes, the same Republicans will be asked if they still support the nominee now that said standard-bearer is a felon. Then the same question will be asked again if and when he’s sentenced to prison.
    ………..
    “If virtually all the GOP governors and senators were to say they would not support Trump, even in the general, I don’t think his poll numbers would be harmed, at all,” Romney told me. “They might even get better. I think the MAGA base dislikes our elected elites as much or more than they dislike Democrats.”
    ………..

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  30. https://twitter.com/ImMeme0/status/1732026636000747772

    Virulent racist Henry Rodgers tells all black people they have no humanity for the simple reason that they are black.

    He’s just one step short of calling for their extermination.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  31. @25 Lindsey Graham: “Everybody behind me will vote to aid Ukraine if we can get the border right.”. It was Biden who linked border chaos to Ukraine aid. He thought Republicans would roll over by simply throwing more money at his border mess. He didn’t figure that Republicans actually wanted to fix the problem he created. Sucks for him and our territorial integrity, not just Ukraine’s. Maybe he should stop putting our security last.

    lloyd (fff737)

  32. Well, lloyd, not to burden you with my problems, but today I went to the mall to pick up a couple of Christmas gifts for my family. One from Nordstrom’s and one from the Apple store.

    Nordstrom’s did not have what I wanted, so did I say “The heck with it, I am not buying the Apple store gift, either, until Nordstom’s gets me what I want”?

    Of course not. I bought what I was after from the Apple store and when I got home I ordered what I wanted from Nordstrom’s online.

    That’s how adults get things done.

    Preventing Russia from taking over Ukraine is important to America. Maybe not as important as border security, I will not argue that, but important. Those dipwiddles should be looking at how to get both things done, instead of holding each one hostage for the other.

    nk (c21586)

  33. I know that “Congress has the power of the purse” is an aphorism. But power not used wisely is dangerous to the user. Like pulling the pin on a hand grenade and not throwing it.

    nk (c21586)

  34. Biden linked it, the GOP held it hostage.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  35. Granted, Israel is also worthy of aid, but they don’t have the same sense of urgency as Ukraine, and they’re not a military disadvantage as Ukraine is, far from it.
    But there is a common link between Israel and Ukraine, and it’s Iran, i.e., the theocratic terrorist state that is supporting the Russian terrorist state and is supporting the the Hamas terrorist organization. Our funding Israel-Ukraine doesn’t just put Russia and Hamas on their heels, it puts us on a more aggressive footing with Iran, which is long overdue, and which my party is delaying.
    More from McFaul, former US Ambassador to Russia.

    For us Americans who care about Ukraine, this week was disappointing. Tragically, the U.S. Senate failed to pass a new supplemental bill that would have provided $60 billion in additional assistance to Ukraine (as well as important new aid to Israel). By all accounts, a solid majority of U.S. Senators support new aid to Ukraine. The bill stalled, however, when Republican senators tried to add amendments to the bill that would fundamentally change our immigration laws. As they probably already knew, these amendments were unacceptable to the Biden Administration and Democratic senators.

    It’s not like this bill just showed up last week. This last-minute hijinx blew it up and delayed it into 2024, which is a blow to our longtime Ukrainian friends because time is of the essence.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  36. Biden’s hostage means as much to him as the kidnapped Israeli baby or grandmother means to Hamas. He can’t even do hostage taking right.

    On that note, even though it is effectively surrounded by a large impenetrable moat Britain has its own very serious problem with migrants and a problem with a party that doesn’t give a damn. The Conservatives summarized their problem and ours in one succinct tweet. Most of their migrants transit through France, which no one in their right mind thinks is a country to flee from to gain asylum in the UK. None of it ever had to do with persecution and asylum, either here or there. Labour and the Democrats have known this for years. Sunak is rolling over, but fortunately Republicans aren’t. Britain has a worthy successor to the Iron Lady in Suella Braverman.

    lloyd (fff737)

  37. big spasibo to House Republicans (and flip-floppers like Lindsey Graham) for refusing to pass a deal on military aid to Ukraine.

    How about a big hug from Maduro to the Democrats for allowing his continued invasion of Texas.

    Just as reasonable. The issue here is that Biden is willing to let Ukraine rot in order to continue open borders. If he really cared about Ukraine, he’d find some way to jut a deal for what the party in control of the House wants.

    I expect that he’ll try to send Ukraine the money anyway and some people here will carry his water.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  38. @32: This is probably the worst analogy in the history of analogies. Assuming, of course, that you intended it to make sense.

    It’s more like this: I want an iPad from the Apple store. The Apple store wants some of my money. I don’t want to give them any of my money, so I throw a fit in the middle of the store, and scream and scream and scream.

    Many onlookers say that the Apple store people are just mean and they should give me the damn iPad.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  39. That’s how adults get things done.

    Preventing Russia from taking over Ukraine is important to America. Maybe not as important as border security, I will not argue that, but important.

    This is how children throw tantrums.

    Please tell me how the Biden folks will give up on the border mess (that they actually like), for free, when they won’t do it now in exchange for something they really want.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  40. How about a big hug from Maduro to the Democrats for allowing his continued invasion of Texas.

    Maduro isn’t sending Venezuelans to the US, Kevin (nice mischaracterization), he’s driving them out of Venezuela because of his failed socialist experiment.

    I remember a time when Fidel drove his fellow Cubans off his island prison because of his failed communist experiment, and the US took them in (under Reagan even), and now these Cubans have grown up and become Republicans who, ironically, helped a populist xenophobe like Trump win. Strange times.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  41. @32: This is probably the worst analogy in the history of analogies. Assuming, of course, that you intended it to make sense.

    Only to those who view the future of America, and of Western civilization, as a partisan tiff for the next year or so, and have no vision for what they have stood for in history, stand for now, and what they must continue to be for many generations to come.

    nk (c21586)

  42. Maduro isn’t sending Venezuelans to the US, Kevin (nice mischaracterization), he’s driving them out of Venezuela because of his failed socialist experiment.

    And Putin isn’t backing the Republicans, either. As I said, it was about as fair.

    Why is it a bridge too far to address the GOP’s issue with the Southern border at the same time. It could be win-win, but Biden wants lose-lose.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  43. Only to those who view the future of America, and of Western civilization, as a partisan tiff for the next year or so, and have no vision for what they have stood for in history, stand for now, and what they must continue to be for many generations to come.

    So, in your opinion not a single GOP Senator gives a crap about American values?

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  44. Not even Mitt Romney?

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  45. Since the left wants the destruction of America, you might want to turn your anger towards them.

    And if you want to talk about history, they don’t care. That’s just what a bunch of racist, white guys did.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  46. Why is it partisan to want unfettered “immigration” to stop, but NOT partisan to want it to continue?

    And why is it so important to continue the inflow that Biden will throw Ukraine under the bus to accomplish it?

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  47. So, in your opinion not a single GOP Senator gives a crap about American values?

    I have never been to Nacogdoches.

    nk (c21586)

  48. https://legalinsurrection.com/2023/12/cair-executive-director-i-was-happy-to-see-hamas-terror-attack-on-israel-on-october-7/

    AWAD: “It’s truly honoring to be here another time to speak of a platform that I believe is probably the widest and most effective platform for American Muslims and people of other faith traditions and the pro-Palestine movement to honor support the work for Palestine in the United States. The recent month and a half has shown the importance of what we can do, what we have done, and what needs to be. The subject of this discussion is Gazan context. The transformation that affected the region. I would like to let Dr. Osama Abu Irshaid (ph) to focus more on the region, on the transformation in the region. And I’m sure he will touch on issues and areas beyond the region. I would like to acknowledge the following. That when we talk about Gaza and it transformed the region I believe it also has transformed the world. The world beyond its borders. But I don’t want Gaza to stay abstract in people minds. Gaza — I would like to break it down to the following. Gaza, the people. Gaza, the men. Gaza, the women. Gaza, the children. Gaza, the leadership. Gaza, the history. The people of Gaza who we have, and many people around the world, started to learn are not only under siege, they’re not in the largest open prison in the world but they are in the largest concentration camp in the world. And that would break any society, would break any people, will starve any people, will destroy the morale and hope of any people. Sixteen years, thirty years, fifty six years, in fact, as deep — as deep in history as 75 years old since 1946, the people of Gaza more than any part of Palestine have endured the most, the harshest, the most destructive weapon system that has been created by superpowers, including the United States. The people of Gaza by any material calculation, they would have been history, they would not have resisted, they would not have stayed alive, they would not have done what they have done for so many decades. So, I hope, unlike so many people who only woke up to October 7th, the people of Gaza have been aware and living every day of October 6th, 5th, 4, 3, 2, 1 and September 30th and all the way to 1956. The people of Gaza only decided to break the siege, the walls of the concentration camp, on October 7. And yes, I was happy to see people breaking the siege and throwing down the shackles of their own land, and walk free into their land, which they were not allowed to walk in. (Cheering and Applause) And yes, the people of Gaza have the right to self-defense, have the right to defend themselves, and yes, Israel, as an occupying power, does not have that right to self-defense. (Applause) And this is not me emotionally speaking. This is what the international law says. That an occupying power has no self-defense from the territory it occupies, while we hear the entire world, hypocritical world is denying occupied the right to self-defense and granting the right to be aggressive to the occupier.”

    Just a reminder that CAIR was an unindicted co-conspirator for the 9/11 attacks on America.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  49. Suspended USCIS asylum officer and anti-Semite Hamas supporter Nejwa Ali isn’t wasting any of her taxpayer paid vacation time. Mayorkas and Biden keep signing her paycheck stubs. It’s the intersectionality of immigration and terrorism, incompetence and malevolence.

    lloyd (fff737)

  50. And Putin isn’t backing the Republicans, either. As I said, it was about as fair.

    Kevin, Putin is thrilled that a number of House Republicans–and now Senate Republicans–are opposing military aid to the country he’s trying to conquer and absorb.

    You and I know that if Vlad’s friend Donald tries to work his 24-hour peace deal (in the off chance the Orange Psychopath is elected), it really means that he’ll strong-arm Zelenskyy into making massive territorial concessions for the sake of a phony short-lived “peace”, and the Trumpist claque will go right along, in part because if Biden is for it then Trump & Co. are agin it. That, and there’s a disturbing strain of xenophobia running through the Right Wing these days.

    We–my GOP–are the baddies here.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  51. Putin is thrilled that Biden and the left consider supporting the invasion of America to be more important than stopping Putin from toppling Ukraine.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  52. Why is it a bridge too far to address the GOP’s issue with the Southern border at the same time. It could be win-win, but Biden wants lose-lose.

    I’m saying it’s a bridge too late, for the GOP to pull this last-minute poison pill. Like I said, it’s not as if this proposal showed up just a week ago.

    If this was a way to leverage more border concessions from Biden, it was a lousy way to do it, because the Ukrainians have the will but we’re denying the means to prevail over a terrorist state, because of a domestic squabble that’s been simmering for decades.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  53. Putin is thrilled that Biden and the left consider supporting the invasion of America to be more important than stopping Putin from toppling Ukraine.

    There’s the problem right there, that the intolerant Right Wing calls the southern border problem an “invasion”.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  54. We are the baddies. Three-fifths of my party is in the bag for the Chief Baddie.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  55. “We are the baddies. Three-fifths of my party is in the bag for the Chief Baddie.”

    The “baddies” are offering Ukraine aid AND border security. The “good guys” won’t go along because they only want one, so we get neither. That sums it up.

    The fact that border security is a “concession” for Biden puts it in boldface.

    lloyd (211000)

  56. In this I agree with Boot

    It’s not often that I feel ashamed to be an American. But I was ashamed this week when the Senate refused to support a supplemental spending bill that would provide about $61 billion in urgently needed aid for Ukraine (along with $14 billion for Israel and $20 billion for border security). All of the Senate Republicans, even those who have previously supported Ukraine funding, voted to filibuster the bill. Their stated position: They won’t provide a penny for Ukraine unless Democrats agree to a sweeping, draconian overhaul of the United States’ immigration laws.

    I’m sorry, that’s not how a serious political party — or a serious country — behaves during a world crisis. It’s like saying to President Franklin D. Roosevelt in 1941: We won’t support aid to Britain as it battles the Nazis unless Democrats repeal the Social Security Act or rewrite the labor laws.

    Of course, most Republicans in those days were opposed to aiding Britain: A majority of Republicans in both houses voted against the Lend-Lease Act, enacted in early 1941, which allowed the U.S. government to provide critically needed war supplies to Britain and other nations deemed “vital to the defense of the United States” without demanding payment in cash. Thank goodness that in those days both houses were controlled by Democrats — and Senate rules did not require a 60-vote supermajority to get anything done.
    […]
    Yet now both leaders have taken the position that — as Johnson wrote this week — “supplemental Ukraine funding is dependent upon enactment of transformative change to our nation’s border security laws.” Good luck with that. The last time Congress enacted a major, bipartisan immigration bill was in 1986, when Reagan was in the White House. Lawmakers from both parties have been laboring for decades to craft another major bill. A decade ago, the bipartisan “Gang of Eight” thought they were close, only to have the deal fall apart. So it’s hard to take Republicans at face value when they insist on making aid to Ukraine dependent on breaking through decades of legislative logjams on immigration.

    Why are they linking the two? The excuse heard from Republicans is that they can’t in good conscience support funding to defend Ukraine’s borders when our own borders are so insecure. They think that by invoking the common word “borders” they can pretend that the United States and Ukraine are in analogous situations. That would be true only if the Mexican Army were invading the southwestern United States to annex Arizona, New Mexico and Texas while announcing plans to march on Washington and destroy the United States as a sovereign country.

    Needless to say, that hasn’t happened. What is happening is that millions of desperate immigrants are trying to enter the United States, legally and illegally, in pursuit of freedom and economic opportunity, just like the ancestors of most native-born Americans. The spike in undocumented immigration is a serious problem that needs to be addressed, but it can hardly be said to threaten the United States’ survival in the same way the Russian invasion threatens Ukraine’s.

    I’m not ashamed to be an American, but I am ashamed about this GOP that I no longer recognize, and which I may not have recognized in 1941.

    What is conservative about a party that worships a mentally ill con man? What is conservative about likening an actual invasion involving an actual army to a shoddily managed border policy? I seriously doubt we’d have been in this current breakdown situation without the Chief Baddie’s influence and bullying.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  57. Pleasant update to item two:

    Farley’s East apologized in a Facebook post published on Wednesday. The post referred to the graffiti as “hate speech.” Read the full apology below:

    “Dear Community, In response to the recent incident at our family-owned cafe, we want to offer an acknowledgement [sic] and a sincere apology. As context, hate speech graffiti was written in our bathroom. We do not support hate speech; this does not reflect our values. After a customer used the bathroom and wished to return to document the graffiti, they were initially denied access and then allowed to enter the bathroom to film the graffiti. We apologize for this error and the distress caused to the customer. We’ve taken corrective measures with our staff and removed the offensive graffiti. We’re not anti-Semitic; we value diversity and inclusivity. We’re committed to ongoing staff training for a safe and welcoming environment. Thank you for understanding that we are a small business doing our best to operate a community business in a difficult environment.”

    They’ve also apparently decided to close for a couple of days, so perhaps the problem with obnoxious staff runs a lot more deeply than previously realized.

    JVW (3d0504)

  58. Hostages die in botched IDF rescue attempt. Netanyahu wont tell hostage families what happened to their love ones in botched attempt ;but that wont get him out of it!

    asset (79dae8)

  59. Kevin, Putin is thrilled that a number of House Republicans–and now Senate Republicans–are opposing military aid to the country he’s trying to conquer and absorb.

    OK, so give up with the Putin-tossing and answer this:

    Why is it so important to continue to allow unfettered “immigration” that Biden is willing to cut off aid to Ukraine. The GOP has NOT said they won’t do it, they just have something they want more.

    Why is Biden risking Ukraine over something that will cost him the election and put Trump in power?

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  60. I’m saying it’s a bridge too late, for the GOP to pull this last-minute poison pill. Like I said, it’s not as if this proposal showed up just a week ago.

    But they’ve just discovered that Ukraine needs more money?! This dog won’t hunt.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  61. And why is it a poison pill? You still have not defended Biden’s intransigence.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  62. There’s the problem right there, that the intolerant Right Wing calls the southern border problem an “invasion”.

    I am not the “intolerant Right Wing” and I consider it an invasion. Aided and abetted by Joseph Biden. You have gone so far around the anti-Trump curve that you are now viewing moderate Republicans as the “far right.”

    Mitt Romney voted against the Ukraine aid, too. Is he a Trumpie now? Or are you just blind?

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  63. Best known for his roles in What’s Up Doc?, Paper Moon, and Love Story, he played an unconvincing getaway driver in The Driver.

    AKA John McEnroe’s father-in-law.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  64. In 2016 democrat party lost white voters to trump and republicans. In 2004 kerry lost latinx vote to dubya at behest of unions and have not made that mistake again! In 2018 AOC wins thanks to latinx. Immigrants are now the democratic base for the future. Citizenship them up and away we go! The people who whine don’t vote democrat and the people who do vote democrat don’t care.

    asset (79dae8)

  65. It isn’t an invasion. There isn’t any foreign government or military leader involved. They are not trying to push us out or take our land. They are not trying to remove our government or make systemic changes and current estimates are below those of the mid 2000s.

    It’s been the same d@mn problem for 50 years and you want them to solve it in 2 weeks as part of a foreign aid bill when the House can’t even commit to the possibility of passing anything that might pass the Senate?

    Nic (896fdf)

  66. It’s been the same d@mn problem for 50 years and you want them to solve it in 2 weeks as part of a foreign aid bill when the House can’t even commit to the possibility of passing anything that might pass the Senate?

    The flip side of your argument is that the Democrats will always have a reason for why it’s not the right time to address illegal immigration. I’m always a bad prognosticator on how these things end up, but having acknowledged that, I don’t think the GOP will look so bad in independents’ eyes if they demand action at the border in return for Ukraine funding. As Kevin M posits, a lot of voters are going to wonder what Joe Biden and Co. have against securing the borders. Especially since his own FBI director is out there talking about how the threat of terrorism in the U.S. is the highest that it has been in years.

    JVW (e9ad69)

  67. We made the same points to republicans and they agreed with us on social security and medicare ;but told us I agree but I have to vote against every democrat on the ballot over gun rights! Democrats and independents even some moderate republicans say exactly the same thing about abortion! Your side ignored the issue in both 2022 and 2023 elections and didn’t work. In many states swing states like az abortion will be on the ballot. Immigration, crime and inflation along with the social dog whistles like transgenders will be trumped by abortion and now trump’s crazyness. you have no answer for abortion so you ignore it. What is your answer to vote democrat or use a coat hanger?

    asset (79dae8)

  68. Yeah, what leaders were part of the barbarian tribes that led to the fall of Rome?

    And yes, the government of Mexico and other nations are directing people to America and breaking the law by not holding them in the first “safe” nation as required when requesting asylum.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  69. The left promised to stop illegal immigration when they agreed to amnesty with Reagan. They’ve broken every promise ever since.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  70. After a customer used the bathroom and wished to return to document the graffiti, they were initially denied access and then allowed to enter the bathroom to film the graffiti.

    So she was not wetting her panties because she needed to pee; she ws wetting her panties because now she had something to put on Tik Tok.

    And the stupid employees gave her more fodder with their antisemitic comments, but Mensa geniuses do not work at those kind of places.

    And we got fooled again by tabloid crap on the internet.

    nk (c21586)

  71. I think the Democrats know they are weak on border security. That isn’t a mystery. They know they have to do more before next fall to blunt that vulnerability. But they also know that Ukraine funding is popular.

    It would seem like we are set up for a deal. What minimally do both sides want that can get through both houses? The GOP still wants this as an election issue. Democrats want some pathway to legalization or citizenship. They also want humane treatment for people looking for a better life. The GOP won’t support anything that looks like amnesty. Progress requires some sort of adult compromise. It’s not clear that our current political environment supports that.

    AJ_Liberty (d399e4)

  72. Nic (896fdf) — 12/9/2023 @ 12:00 am

    Well said, Nic.

    felipe (79693d)

  73. NJRob (eb56c3) — 12/9/2023 @ 5:30 am

    We, absolutely, must secure our borders against illegal immigration because, while not led, the resulting harm could be similar to a led invasion. Why does the rest of the world have borders and seek to secure them?

    felipe (79693d)

  74. This Ramirez cartoon picturing the Loser in his den gave me some grim enjoyment.

    Enjoyment, because it is good to see the truth depicted, however unpleasant, when so many others are refusing to face simple facts.

    Jim Miller (99a2be)

  75. I don’t think the GOP will look so bad in independents’ eyes if they demand action at the border in return for Ukraine funding.

    I may be only one Independent, but you have it exactly right, JVW.

    felipe (79693d)

  76. And the stupid employees gave her more fodder with their antisemitic comments, but Mensa geniuses do not work at those kind of places.

    And we got fooled again by tabloid crap on the internet.
    nk (c21586) — 12/9/2023 @ 5:55 am

    Ha! Sadly, though, yes they do. Like Ptolemy, the possession of a great intellect is no guarantee against being wrong.

    felipe (79693d)

  77. Or poor. Or [fill this in].

    felipe (79693d)

  78. Yeah, what leaders were part of the barbarian tribes that led to the fall of Rome?

    If only Stilicho had had bone spurs.

    nk (c21586)

  79. unfettered immigration

    Pull the other one. Since Eisenhower’s Operation Wetback, it has been the Republican lapdogs of rich jerkoffs who have stymied efforts to cut off cheap, illegal labor, and to prevent illegals from becoming legal and coming out of the shadows because that would make them no longer cheap.

    These particular whining GOP puppies now in Congress don’t even have that much of a rationale. Basically ineffectual and marginalized, not content with their $1 million per year sinecures and perks, they want to flex a little muscle and make sure that the morons who elected them to their phony-baloney jobs in the first place vote for them again.

    nk (c21586)

  80. $1 million *plus* Do you know they give themselves free cars?

    nk (c21586)

  81. @65 “It’s been the same d@mn problem for 50 years and you want them to solve it in 2 weeks as part of a foreign aid bill when the House can’t even commit to the possibility of passing anything that might pass the Senate?”

    Ukraine-Russia has been the same d@mn problem for 200+ years. So what?

    We didn’t have unworkable asylum rules until recently. Trump had effective Remain in Mexico and prop 42 policies just a few years ago, which Biden tossed. We didn’t have Democrat run cities begging for migrant relief until this administration. We didn’t have unaccompanied minors, babies and toddlers fending on their own as smugglers toss them over the border. We didn’t have taxpayer funded charter flights routinely delivering lawbreakers to their destinations. We didn’t have border patrol acting as baby sitters rather than doing their job. We didn’t have calls to fingerprint migrant kids to address sex trafficking. We didn’t have a massive fentanyl problem. These are all new developments, from the past few years.

    The border is not the same d@mn problem it’s been. What’s been the same the past 50 years is Democrat opposition to doing anything about it. And, they’re so determined to not do anything about it they’ll stop Ukraine aid.

    lloyd (c4154f)

  82. Why is it so important to continue to allow unfettered “immigration” that Biden is willing to cut off aid to Ukraine.

    I reject the premise, that it’s “unfettered”, which akin to the false trope that socialists use when they talk about “unfettered capitalism”.

    I agree that fundamental and comprehensive immigration reform is necessary, but throwing in a major policy-changing immigration bill that should appropriately take months to negotiate, not a few weeks, all the while denying Ukrainians the weapons they need to stop Putin’s terrorist missile/artillery attacks, this is not good faith, particularly since the last time we actually passed such legislation was when Rob didn’t even have pubic hair.

    What the GOP is doing is exactly what Putin wants. Why is my party catering to a hostile expansionist imperialist power like Russia? Why are we Republicans tacitly accepting his form of terrorism yet so outraged about Hamas terrorism? Israel lost 1,200-1,300 since 10/7, Ukraine has lost hundreds of thousands in 22 months from this illegal unprovoked invasion.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  83. OK, so give up with the Putin-tossing and answer this:
    […]
    Why is Biden risking Ukraine over something that will cost him the election and put Trump in power?

    One, I won’t “give up with the Putin-tossing”. He and Xi are our two largest geopolitical foes and our foreign policy shouldn’t be about helping him succeed in his very real, very physical invasion. He either needs to lose and GTFO or, at worst for us, be stuck in an unwinnable territory-ceding quagmire.

    Two, the top definition of invasion in every dictionary is “an act or instance of invading or entering as an enemy, especially by an army”, so I’ll take your description of the southern border as an “invasion” as unhelpful hyperbole.

    Three, regarding your question about Biden’s foreign policy on Ukraine-Israel, why have so many Republicans rejected a foreign policy that Reagan built? Regarding the southern border, this is a funding bill, not landmark legislation, which is why I called it a poison pill. Trump had GOP majorities in both houses and he couldn’t get a deal done. I support a lot more money for the southern border and lot more enforcement. But this is a divided government and that means that anything substantial will take time, and time is not on the Ukrainians’ side with their dwindling supplies.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  84. Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 12/8/2023 @ 5:05 pm

    Related:

    With fewer than 40 days until the Iowa caucuses, leading Senate Republicans believe the 2024 GOP presidential primary is already over, with former President Donald Trump sitting comfortably atop the polls and his rivals more interested in squabbling with each other.
    …………
    “The cake is baked,” Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.), one of Trump’s top allies on Capitol Hill, told HuffPost on Thursday about the state of the presidential race.

    “I think this is over,“ added first-term Sen. Eric Schmitt (R-Mo.), another Trump backer. “The sooner you get to the [GOP’s 2024] convention the better, but I think he’s got the nomination in hand.”
    ………..
    “I think it was over before it began,” said Sen. Mitt Romney (R-Utah), adding that former South Carolina Gov. Nikki Haley “has a shot, but a very long shot” at snagging the nomination.

    “I think Trump is the presumptive nominee………….Romney said.

    ……….. Trump’s decision not to participate in the presidential debates starved his rivals of political oxygen, insulating himself from potential missteps and allowing them to go after each other instead.
    ……………
    The fact of the matter is that Republican voters still love Trump, and GOP elected officials are slowly coming to grips with the fact that they may need to get on board with his campaign sooner or later.

    Sen. Katie Britt (R-Ala.)………..became the latest senator to back Trump’s 2024 bid, offering yet another sign of which way the political winds are blowing in the GOP.
    …………
    Minority Whip John Thune (R-S.D.), the No. 2 Republican in the Senate, said he was “not ready to draw” the conclusion that the primary is basically over. ………

    “To me, it doesn’t feel locked down,” (Sen. Cynthia Lummis (R-WY said) of the GOP race. “I do think there could be an Iowa surprise, but I don’t know if it will carry on past Iowa, that’s the thing.”

    And Sen. Bill Cassidy (R-La.), a Trump critic and a physician, suggested the presidential race could be upended in either major party by a surprise medical issue with Trump or with President Joe Biden.
    ……………
    If someone is depending on a health scare affecting either Presidential candidate to change the dynamic of the presidential race, that is a sign of desperation.

    Rip Murdock (5ad73d)

  85. Polling has consistently shown declining support (if not outright opposition) for aid to Ukraine among Republican voters,, so the House and Senate Republicans are using this standoff as an opportunity to achieve its end.

    Rip Murdock (5ad73d)

  86. The statement in italics in post 85 should not have been blockquoted.

    Rip Murdock (5ad73d)

  87. US life expectancy began falling in 2014, because:

    The average life expectancy in the United States has been on a decline since 2014. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention cites three main reasons: a 72% increase in overdoses in the last decade (including a 30% increase in opioid overdoses from July 2016 to September 2017, but did not differentiate between accidental overdose with a legal prescription and overdose with opioids obtained illegally and/or combined with illegal drugs i.e., heroin, cocaine, methamphetamine, etc.), a ten-year increase in liver disease (the rate for men age 25 to 34 increased by 8% per year; for women, by 11% per year), and a 33% increase in suicide rates since 1999.

    Two presidents, Obama and the Loser, failed to act effectively against the opiod disaster, and President Biden is failing.

    And so have Congresses controlled by both parties.

    Jim Miller (99a2be)

  88. It isn’t an invasion. There isn’t any foreign government or military leader involved. They are not trying to push us out or take our land. They are not trying to remove our government or make systemic changes and current estimates are below those of the mid 2000s.

    Invasion (noun)

    1. an act of invading, especially incursion of an army for conquest or plunder
    2. the incoming or spread of something usually hurtful

    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/invasion

    Definition 2 works for me.

    As far as “taking over land” roughly half of the city of Los Angeles is now Spanish-speaking, up from about 20% in 1980. The influx has had an impact on rents, traffic and homelessness, and control much of the city’s politics. Hispanics now constitute the largest ethnic group in California.

    Are they imposing control by military force, no. But that’s a pretty cramped definition of “imposing control.”

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  89. #85 “We didn’t have a massive fentanyl problem. These are all new developments, from the past few years.”

    Here are some numbers:

    Opioid-involved overdose deaths rose from 21,089 in 2010 to 47,600 in 2017 and remained steady through 2019. This was followed by a significant increase in 2020 with 68,630 reported deaths and again in 2021 with 80,411 reported overdose deaths.

    There is enough blame to go around, Obama, the Loser, the Congresses during this period, and many state and local governments.

    Jim Miller (99a2be)

  90. Correction: #82 rather than #85 in previous comment.

    Jim Miller (99a2be)

  91. Now, I do favor immigration, and rather more than the current law anticipates (although it appears to allow far more than anticipated, given the blind eyes involved).

    But unlimited immigration is a problem, and given the way that legal immigration has effectively stopped due to a lack of manpower, this crap is intolerable.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  92. The problems of 44 million Ukrainians don’t amount to a hill of beans in this crazy, mixed-up world. But at least we will have Covfefe.

    I must be having a senior moment trying to talk about American values and western civilization in the same breath with the Party of Trump. Like reading the Torah at the Nuremberg rally.

    nk (c21586)

  93. It’s been the same d@mn problem for 50 years and you want them to solve it in 2 weeks as part of a foreign aid bill when the House can’t even commit to the possibility of passing anything that might pass the Senate?

    No, and that’s not what is being asked. What is being asked is that the loopholes in refugee rules that Biden has manufactured, and exploits, be closed. Just moving back to “remain in Mexico”, rather than being paroled into the USA with a work permit, is enough.

    Or do you really believe that all these people are flooding in because their home governments want to kill them, and not, say, because our streets are paved with gold? Allowing them in if they say some magic words, that they are coached to say, is at best disrespectful. Biden’s “solution”, to give Immigration more money to process them in faster, is extremely disrespectful. And disingenuous.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  94. Homelessness and open borders are not unrelated. In the past, countries have had shantytowns. Now we just spend enormous sums to prevent that, and wring our hands about how unexpected this all is.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  95. I must be having a senior moment trying to talk about American values and western civilization in the same breath with the Party of Trump. Like reading the Torah at the Nuremberg rally.

    This is offensive. You are calling people here Nazis (and/or Trumpists) because they don’t agree with you.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  96. Polling has consistently shown declining support (if not outright opposition) for aid to Ukraine among Republican voters,, so the House and Senate Republicans are using this standoff as an opportunity to achieve its end.

    All Bien has to do is accept a change in refugee processing and he can have all the Ukraine money he asks for. Is it a “holdup”? Sure. But for Biden to act like, after a lifetime in politics, that a holdup is beyond the pale is risible.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  97. Paul Montagu (d52d7d) — 12/9/2023 @ 8:02 am

    Not once have you discussed why Biden is risking the VERY important aid to Ukraine over some dialing back of the out-of-control refugee policy.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  98. Paul Montagu (d52d7d) — 12/9/2023 @ 8:02 am

    “Invasion” has definitions other than “military force.” Even the top definition relegates that to “especially”, allowing for non-military definitions. And the second definition is far move inclusive.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  99. nk,

    You have gone so far over the edge here, that it’s really uninteresting to read your posts. Didn’t use to be the case.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  100. A lot of that going around, Kevin.

    nk (c21586)

  101. Not once have you discussed why Biden is risking the VERY important aid to Ukraine over some dialing back of the out-of-control refugee policy.

    You didn’t like the answer, Kevin, which is a you problem, not a me problem.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  102. All Bien has to do is accept a change in refugee processing and he can have all the Ukraine money he asks for. Is it a “holdup”? Sure. But for Biden to act like, after a lifetime in politics, that a holdup is beyond the pale is risible.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 12/9/2023 @ 8:44 am

    I thought pairing Ukraine aid with Israel and Taiwan was a sure thing?

    Rip Murdock (5ad73d)

  103. Kevin M (ed969f) — 12/9/2023 @ 8:42 am

    Being called a “Nazi” is risible, but why is “Trumpist” when 60% of Republican voters support him? Isn’t that close to a consensus?

    Rip Murdock (5ad73d)

  104. You didn’t like the answer, Kevin, which is a you problem, not a me problem.

    You never answered, which I admit I didn’t like. You just said ”
    Putin” and “not an invasion” but nowhere did you say that continuing the problem on the southern border is worth giving up Ukraine, which is the Biden position.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  105. Being called a “Nazi” is risible, but why is “Trumpist” when 60% of Republican voters support him? Isn’t that close to a consensus?

    Because I am quite clearly not one, so lumping me (or Romney or McConnell) in with people like Vivek and MTG is indeed risible.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  106. I thought pairing Ukraine aid with Israel and Taiwan was a sure thing?

    Well it is, but I thought that “protecting the US border” would be too.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  107. This isn’t just the whackos like MTG. This is reasonable centrists like Mitt Romney voting to block Ukraine funding until Biden gives up his mass immigration push.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  108. The cloture vote failed, 49-51, with EVERY GOP Senator (plus Bernie) voting no (Schumer changed his vote to no to allow reconsideration).

    The GOP only needed 41 votes — they did not HAVE to present a united front, but they did. Democrats talk about how Putin is smiling, rather than deal with the GOP concerns.

    Senate Republicans meanwhile, have accused Democrats of not taking their concerns to heart when they’ve made their position clear all along.

    “I don’t think they are [taking us seriously enough],” Sen. John Cornyn (R-Texas) said earlier this week. “It may take a failed cloture vote for them to realize we’re serious, and we’re prepared to do that.”

    https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/4345952-ukraine-israel-funding-senate-republicans/

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  109. It all makes me pretty much cynical

    It’s hard to say that Biden has done nothing: The FY23 government funding package that President Biden signed into law provided Border Patrol with $7.153 billion — a 17 percent increase from the year before. Additionally, the funding package provided $65 million for 300 new Border Patrol agents, $60 million for 125 new personnel at points of entry; and $230 million for technology like autonomous surveillance towers. Is upping the amount of money here doing nothing or wanting open borders?

    The reality too is that it was the Trump administration that tightened sanctions on Cuba, Venezuela, and Nicaragua, exacerbating the macroeconomic crises that have led hundreds of thousands to flee and arrive at the southern border. We don’t need forever aid to central and south america, but throwing money at a beautiful wall misses the mark as well.

    The GOP cut the number of legal pathways to immigration (49% by 2021), even the most highly skilled workers. This shouldn’t excuse coming illegal but we do have a macroeconomic pull that we get distracted from addressing with a hyperfocus on walls. Maybe I missed it, but I don’t recall massive fines against companies who used illegals being prominent during Trump’s term. A lot of this is bad theater.

    90% of fentanyl is brought into the country by Americans through legal points of entry. Again, it doesn’t excuse Mexico for its role, but it does seem like we are focusing on 1% of the problem all of the time.

    Border security should be decoupled from Ukraine. Putin is applauding the squeeze on Ukraine. Who would have thought the GOP would become Putin’s not-so-secret weapon?

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  110. Casey DeSantis encourages election fraud:

    …….….
    “We’re asking all of these moms and grandmoms to come from wherever it might be — North Carolina, South Carolina — and descend upon the state of Iowa to be a part of the caucus because you do not have to be a resident of Iowa to be able to participate in the caucus. So moms and grandmoms are going to be able to come and be a part and let their voice be heard in support of Ron DeSantis.”

    Florida’s First Lady made the comments on the Fox News Channel.
    ………..
    …………. This comes after Gov. DeSantis suggested that Iowa should hold caucuses in Florida, an idea that got no traction.
    …………

    Uhhh…no:

    The Republican Party of Iowa swiftly sent out a reminder after Florida first lady Casey DeSantis called for out-of-state supporters of her husband, Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis’ presidential campaign, to participate in the Iowa caucuses.
    ………..
    “Remember: you must be a legal resident of Iowa and the precinct you live in and bring photo ID with you to participate in the #iacaucus!” the party wrote on X.
    ………..

    Casey DeSantis made the comments while sitting next to her husband, and he failed to correct her. Who’s running the campaign?

    Rip Murdock (5ad73d)

  111. @JVW@66 and that might be true, they might never want to address it but if they don’t one of three things will happen. 1. It never gets bad enough that there are consequences in not addressing it. 2. The Rs end up with enough majority at some point to address it. 3. It gets bad enough that Ds start losing seats over the issue.

    The thing is, I don’t think the Rs really want to address it either. There’ve been plenty of times that they could and didn’t. I think this is all basically grandstanding.

    @NJRob@69 You have heard of Attila the Hun, yes?

    @lloyd@82 We aren’t trying to solve Ukraine v Russia, Ukraine is, we are just supporting them in their efforts. We have had a number of bad or ineffective policies over time that had similar or different bad results and none of them have solved the problem, including Trump’s set of them. There wasn’t a significant change in the number in the US under Trump either. It is the same d@mn problem.

    @Kevin Here’s where Biden was willing to go.
    Here’s what the House republicans wanted in order to commit to passing it. I don’t know that the Ds were the ones being unreasonable on the issue.

    Nic (896fdf)

  112. 2024 Iowa Republican Presidential Caucus RCP Polling Averages:

    DeSantis: -29 behind Trump
    Haley: -32

    Based on the current polls, Trump, DeSantis, and Haley will win the majority, if not all, of the delegates.

    Days until Iowa caucuses: 37

    Rip Murdock (5ad73d)

  113. From The Hill: “Biden said he’s asked Congress for billions of dollars in funding for additional border agents, more immigration judges and more asylum officers. He did not detail what changes he would support in border policy. The White House has denied it considered offering permanent changes to asylum laws in exchange for support for Ukraine aid, an idea that caused instant backlash among immigration advocates.”

    Billions more for judges and asylum officers isn’t to stem the tide. It’s to clear the backlog so that more can come through. More money for border agents is only because they’ve run out of baby sitters. Meaningful reform is going to come with asylum rules changes, and Biden would have Ukraine aid cut off before he’d touch any of that.

    Republicans have approved well more than $100billion of Ukraine aid to this point. In return for that, Biden and the Democrats have done nothing at the border except make it worse. And, they’ve made it clear that making our nation’s border security better is a “concession” on their part. Tells you everything about their warped mentality.

    lloyd (0833c2)

  114. Kevin M (ed969f) — 12/9/2023 @ 8:44 am

    Even if the Administration accepted all of the Republican border demands, they would find other reasons to block aid to Ukraine. The Republican Party In Washington is reflecting its base and just doesn’t support aid for Ukraine (or Israel, as evidenced by tying aid to the poison pill of reductions to IRS funding.) Like Trump, they are practicing transactional politics.

    Rip Murdock (5ad73d)

  115. @112 “There wasn’t a significant change in the number in the US under Trump either. It is the same d@mn problem.“

    You didn’t include any hard data to back that up, because the data doesn’t support you. There were 1.6 million migrant encounters in 2021, 2.5 million so far in 2023. In 2019 there were just over 400,000, and if you want to dismiss that as Covid related, it was just over 800,000 in 2018. This wasn’t just happenstance. Trump had actual policies, Remain in Mexico and Title 42, that were effective. He also appointed judges who did not twist the law to stymie enforcement.

    But, I agree it’s the same d@mn problem: Democrats who don’t want to fix the issue. Been a problem for decades.

    lloyd (0833c2)

  116. Breaking:

    Two-way superstar Shohei Ohtani announces he is signing with the Dodgers
    …………
    In a blockbuster announcement Saturday, Ohtani agreed to a 10-year, $700 million contract with the Dodgers, according to a statement posted on Instagram, bringing the two-time most valuable player across town after his historic six-year stint with the Angels.

    And though he is expected to be limited to only designated hitting duties next season, after undergoing his second Tommy John surgery in September, the Japanese star still represents one of the biggest player acquisitions in the Dodgers’ storied history, transforming their already star-studded lineup with arguably the most dangerous hitter in the sport.
    ………..

    Happy days are here again……..

    Rip Murdock (5ad73d)

  117. https://thefederalist.com/2023/12/06/report-u-s-sets-record-for-most-single-day-border-apprehensions/

    The United States reportedly set a new record for the most single-day migrant encounters at its southern border, marking another historic casualty brought about by President Biden’s open border policies.

    According to Customs and Border Protection (CBP) sources who spoke with Fox News’ Bill Melugin, “there were more than 12,000 migrant encounters” at the U.S.-Mexico border on Tuesday, including “10,200+ Border Patrol apprehensions of illegal immigrants, amongst the highest daily totals for BP ever recorded.”

    These figures do not include “gotaways,” or illegal immigrants who managed to evade capture by CBP.

    NJRob (51fb0c)

  118. @lloyd@116 Illegal immigrants in the US have been generally between 10 and 11.5 million over the last 15 or so years.

    In the article you linked, the increased encounters were mostly due to repeat encounters with people because we were chucking people back and they were trying again, rather than people who actually made it into the country for asylum purposes.

    Nic (896fdf)

  119. In a column titled “Smart Politics, for Once”, Allahnick had this to say about Ukraine and the border:

    the normally hawkish cohort in that conference sounds willing to join Johnson in roadblocking Ukraine funding unless Democrats give them something on border enforcement. What that “something” might be is a matter of negotiation—or was a matter of negotiation, I should say—but at a minimum Republicans want to require asylum-seekers traveling to the U.S. via other countries to apply for asylum in those other countries first and to limit the White House’s ability to use humanitarian “parole” authority to release migrants into the country temporarily.

    This is normally the point where staunch Reaganites like Mitt Romney and Lindsey Graham would clear their throats and scold the MAGA bloc for providing aid and comfort to Vladimir Putin by placing conditions on aid to Ukraine. Victory is too important to be waylaid by domestic policy haggling! Not this time, though. “Eventually, you’ve got to have the border fight. I’m not going to support any of this stuff until I know what’s going to happen with our own border,” Graham said last month of new military aid. Romney was even more emphatic, warning Democrats that until they’re prepared to end the practice of releasing thousands of migrants per day into the United States, no Ukraine deal will be done.

    Thanks in part to Mike Johnson, the notoriously fractious and ungovernable Republican congressional conference is—dare I say it?—united. The MAGA bloc gets border enforcement; the hawks get Ukraine support. Everyone’s happy.

    https://thedispatch.com/newsletter/boilingfrogs/smart-politics-for-once/

    norcal (038d55)

  120. @119 I don’t think you read your link.

    “The new estimates do not reflect changes that have occurred since apprehensions and expulsions of migrants along the U.S.-Mexico border started increasing in March 2021. Migrant encounters at the border have since reached historic highs.”

    Look, don’t trust me. Trust what your Democrat mayors and governors have been saying.

    lloyd (0833c2)

  121. Jim Miller (99a2be) — 12/9/2023 @ 6:22 am

    I loved that Ramirez cartoon, Jim, right down to the cascading red tie. It took me a moment to understand the wall mounts, but then I loved them, too. Ramirez is quite talented.

    I fear that political cartoons are an underappreciated art form these days.

    norcal (038d55)

  122. @lloyd@121 From the article you linked, that migrant encounters at the border were not increased individual encounters, they were repeat encounters from people we chucked out. The difficulty with sending illegal immigrants to random places is that they don’t currently have a system in place to process or house them, it was obviously just a publicity stunt, since Texas sent them to CA once, but stopped when he realized that CA does have the capacity to handle his idiot stunting and just rolled it’s eyes at him and kept moving. Katie Hobbs is asking for a reopening of a border crossing.

    Nic (896fdf)

  123. @70 That was corporate establishment democrats and their labor union allies not the left.

    asset (a3549c)

  124. @123 And, why was the border crossing closed? It was in the link, but I’ll help: “Customs and Border Protection shuttered the port of entry on Monday to redirect the staff there to help the Border Patrol
    process the flood of migrants who are asking for asylum.”

    There’s also Hochul and Pritzker and the Democrat mayor of El Paso.

    Dismiss it all you like.

    lloyd (ad8113)

  125. @74 “WE”?

    asset (a3549c)

  126. Kevin McCarthy’s Next Gig?

    ………
    “I believe Donald Trump will win, I believe that Republicans will gain more seats in the House, and that Republicans will win the Senate,” McCarthy told CBS News’ Robert Costa in a prerecorded preview of an upcoming interview.

    “I will support President Trump,” he said when asked whether his warm words were an endorsement of the former president.
    ………..
    In another sign of warmth towards the former president, the California Republican also said that he would serve in a Trump cabinet — if he gets a good spot.

    “In the right position, if I am the best person for the job, yes,” McCarthy said. “I worked with President Trump on a lot of policy. We worked together to win the majority.”
    ………….

    Rip Murdock (5ad73d)

  127. Rip Murdock (5ad73d) — 12/9/2023 @ 1:36 pm

    It beats moving back to Bakersfield.

    Rip Murdock (5ad73d)

  128. Desatan on nbc interview says ballot measures on protecting abortion rights are a big problem for anti-abortionists. They have to stop voters from being able to vote on abortion measures! Biden and corporate establishment democrats say shame on you! Democrats need to run somebody for president who tells rethugs you try and stop people from voting we will give you a post natal abortion!

    asset (a3549c)

  129. Liz Magill has resigned the presidency of the University of Pennsylvania and will return to being a professor at the law school. Good Heavens, I had no idea that she was a law professor. It makes her convoluted testimony look even more puzzling.

    JVW (1ad43e)

  130. Why are the 14th Amendment lawsuits seeking to bar Trump failing?
    ………..
    More than seven challenges have failed — most notably in Colorado, Michigan and Minnesota — due to court rulings ranging from procedural inconsistencies, questions about whether the judicial branch had power to enforce the ban and dispute over whether the president is considered an “officer of the United States” as required by Section 3 of the 14th Amendment.

    None of the challenges has been upheld thus far.
    …………
    That’s due in part, (legal experts told ABC News) to a number of previously undecided questions, including whether Section 3 is considered “self-executing”– meaning that elections officials wouldn’t need special permission from lawmakers to disqualify Trump from the ballot — or the precise application and definition of the “officer” language in the provision.

    The lawyers ABC News spoke with also said that varying timelines regarding individual states’ primary ballot certification processes are a barrier to disqualifying Trump under the clause.
    ………….
    Some also said the challenges could have been rejected because of the “anti-democratic” argument – that judges might be weary of meddling with voters’ options in the 2024 election, especially if the matter hinges on a such a politically charged question.

    “I can’t imagine that judges are eager to do this. Even judges who may not like Trump — judges in Michigan or Minnesota or Colorado — realize that people have a right to vote for the candidate of their choice,” said Josh Blackman, one of two conservative law professors who authored the widely cited paper that popularized the argument that Section 3’s reference to “an officer of the United States” does not include the president. Blackman wrote an amicus brief in support of Trump making that argument ahead of the Colorado Supreme Court hearing.

    …………. “Who wants to be the judge that disqualifies the leading presidential candidate on the Republican ticket? I mean, who wants to be that judge?”
    …………..

    My guess is that if Supreme Court takes up any of these cases they will punt and declare it a “political question.”

    Rip Murdock (9a3b4c)

  131. I’m glad Ms. Magill is out. It’s her university and countless others that contributed to this awful statistic and gave permission to extremists to hate Jews.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  132. Bring out the 🍿 :

    ……..
    “I will say and I still say that having any client get on a stand with a gag order as limited or large as this is a First Amendment violation,” (former Trump attorney Alina Habba) argued in an interview with Fox News’s Martha Maccallum. “And you should not respect the court and give them the opportunity to hear you.”

    “But, he is going to take the stand regardless and he will navigate it,” she added.

    The attorney explained that while she didn’t want to block the former president from speaking on his behalf, he wouldn’t be able to give his testimony “fully and completely” under the gag order, which bars Trump and his counsel from speaking about the staff of the judge overseeing the case.

    “I would never discourage the former president from testifying, because quite honestly, our plan up until now was to have him testify, he always wanted to testify and he should testify,” Habba said. “When he has nothing to hide, it’s the best thing you could do is put this great witness on that is going to stand up and tell you the truth.”
    ………….
    Trump is expected to take the stand on Monday as the defense’s final witness.
    #########

    Rip Murdock (9a3b4c)

  133. It sounds like Liz Magill was going to be booted had she not resigned, and I’m sure she read the tea leaves.

    JVW (1ad43e)

  134. @lloyd@125 It isn’t dismissal that there is a problem, it just isn’t a new problem. It’s the same problem. If it’s going to get better, it isn’t going to be in a two week negotiation as part of a foreign aid bill. It also isn’t going to be a my way or the highway bill like HR 2 that the House was demanding. And ATM I don’t think there’s an actual will to fix it, I think it’s all grandstanding. Rs have had chance in the past to fix it with comprehensive plans. Ds have had chances in the past to fix it with comprehensive plans. Rs and Ds together have had chances in the past to fix it with comprehensive plans. It never gets fixed. I don’t think enough people actually want it to get fixed, regardless of the letter after their names.

    Nic (896fdf)

  135. I had no idea that she was a law professor. It makes her convoluted testimony look even more puzzling.

    I can, lawyers are always making hairsplitting arguments defending their clients.

    Rip Murdock (9a3b4c)

  136. That McCarthy, Cheney and others choose to stay in DC rather than move back to their districts is indicative of how addicted people get to the DC world and how disconnected they have become from the people they claimed to represent. I get it. I don’t expect AOC to retire to her district when her career tops out either

    steveg (2e32cd)

  137. She is not a lawyer, she is an academic. With the occupational arrogance of academics. They do not care if they persuade, they do not care if they are even understood. They speak and will not be gainsaid. Law professor will return her to her comfort level.

    nk (bb1548)

  138. Rip
    I can see that too. Lots of smart people talk in circles when they know that answering definitively and succinctly could get them in trouble.
    “I can’t tell them what I know, what I did, what I believe, what my intentions were, so I’ll just talk around it all”
    The rules and political scheming of Congress allow people to give unresponsive answers, there are no repercussions for answering yes or no questions with a meandering filibuster

    steveg (2e32cd)

  139. The chair of UPenn’s board of trustees has also resigned.

    Rip Murdock (9a3b4c)

  140. Question: Why were there no leaders from public universities at the House hearing? The protesters at UC Berkeley, for example, were just as antisemitic as those at Harvard, MIT, and Penn.

    Rip Murdock (9a3b4c)

  141. No interest in Hunter Biden bring indicted for multiple felonies that the DoJ tried to grant him immunity from?

    Well, it makes it more likely that he will plead the Fifth Amendment if he testifies before the House Oversight Committee.

    Rip Murdock (9a3b4c)

  142. Stefanik knows how to pick low-hanging fruit.

    Public universities enjoy political protection. Their Boards of Trustees are political appointees as are their top administrators. Not to mention that they are state governmental institutions. Whole lot of worms in those cans.

    nk (b769c8)

  143. Even if the Administration accepted all of the Republican border demands, they would find other reasons to block aid to Ukraine.

    No, they will not. Not all of them. You are smearing some very good people here.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  144. It’s hard to say that Biden has done nothing: The FY23 government funding package that President Biden signed into law provided Border Patrol with $7.153 billion — a 17 percent increase from the year before. Additionally, the funding package provided $65 million for 300 new Border Patrol agents, $60 million for 125 new personnel at points of entry; and $230 million for technology like autonomous surveillance towers. Is upping the amount of money here doing nothing or wanting open borders?

    But this money was for increasing the speed of admission of the “refugees” not for reducing their numbers, or anything of interest to those who want the travesty mitigated.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  145. Shohei Ohtani signs with Dodgers, for $700 million over 10 years.

    Shohei Ohtani just signed a lucrative contract with the Los Angeles Dodgers and becomes yet another MLB player to join the list of highest-paid athletes. Ohtani inked a 10-year deal worth $700 million, which makes it the richest contract in baseball history. He surpassed Mike Trout’s $426 million contract with the Los Angeles Angels to earn that distinction.

    Even though he won’t be able to pitch in 2024 due to an elbow injury, Ohtani is still the most valuable player in baseball, and he got paid like it. Last season, Ohtani hit .304 and led the AL in home runs with 44 while also driving in 44 runs. In his 701 career games, Ohtani has clobbered 171 homers and added 437 RBIs.

    Of course, Ohtani isn’t just getting paid for his hitting. In his 86 career starts on the mound, Ohtani has posted a 38-19 record with an ERA of 3.01 and 608 strikeouts. There just aren’t any players like him, and the Dodgers paid up to get his unique two-way skillset.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  146. Nic (896fdf) — 12/9/2023 @ 11:59 am

    Nic, the GOP has been asking for these things for over a year now, and Biden ignored them. Now, he can’t. This is how things are done today in polarized Washington. Up to now all Biden has offered is more money to let the refugees enter faster.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  147. May 15, 2023 is when that House bill was introduced. Not December 7, which is when Biden offered a little bit of it to get past the Senate vote.

    In any event, getting everything that the House leadership wants isn’t going to happen, nor is it what the Senate demanded.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  148. @Kevin@147 The GOP has been having a screaming fit for over a year, not sitting down to serious negotiations. And the house GOP is still having a screaming fit. Yes, HR2 was offered in May, however the terms of it are what Johnson said he wanted from the Senate GOP for maybe passing the aid bill.

    Nic (896fdf)

  149. @149 “The GOP has been having a screaming fit for over a year, not sitting down to serious negotiations.”

    What specifically don’t you like about HR2, other than it was cooked up in the midst of a screaming fit?

    lloyd (75b525)

  150. https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/washington-secrets/record-50m-immigrants-in-us-spiked-by-illegal-surge-under-biden

    And thats only what the left acknowledges.

    And if you claim legal immigration isn’t high enough, then many more must be illegal.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  151. No, they will not. Not all of them. You are smearing some very good people here.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 12/9/2023 @ 4:06 pm

    I am speaking of House and Senate Republicans, not anyone here.

    Rip Murdock (9a3b4c)

  152. Hostages die in botched IDF rescue attempt while held captive by Hamas.

    FIFY. Hostage deaths, whatever the circumstances, are the responsibility of Hamas.

    Rip Murdock (9a3b4c)

  153. Whopping 67 Percent of Debate Watch Party Says Trump Won It Despite Not Attending
    …………..
    NBC News Campaign Embed Nnamdi Egwuonwu talked to four of those 27 voters who “on their own, organized a straw poll,” (after Tuscaloosa Republican debate) and NBC’s Meet the Press shared the voter rundown on Twitter/X:

    ……….. Nikki Haley: 1
    Former New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie: 1
    Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis: 2
    Vivek Ramaswamy: 5
    Trump, despite not being on stage: 18

    Egwuonwu spoke to one of those voters and asked him about what moment “left a mark” on him during the debate:

    What left the mark for me was Nikki Haley being called out for being the warmonger that she is. ……….But they talked too much about Trump, a man that wasn’t on the stage but ruled the stage tonight.

    ………….

    Rip Murdock (9a3b4c)

  154. @lloyd@150

    Sec 102- A border wall all along the US Mexico border is unnecessary, expensive, not very functional in it’s current design, and in places probably illegal, plus it cuts off water to farmers and would have to go across a reservation, which it may not be allowed to do. It would also likely imminent domain a lot of land.

    Sec 103 Same problems, only now it requires they solve them in 7 days or less. DHS being required to waive all legal requirements in construct (yes, this sounds very safe.).

    Sec 104. Seems fine.

    Sec 105. This is a bunch of gobblty gook with very little meaning.

    Sec 106. I”m pretty sure they already have communication devices, but OK?

    Sec 107 100 million in bonuses to border patrol agents for just existing as border patrol agents. (given the requirements for qualifying, thats probably 10s of thousands per agent) Also the phrase “southwest border” is not defined. And I think they should be able to rescue people if necessary.

    Sec 108. Sure.

    Sec 109. Having a schedule is good, though I imagine they already have one.

    Sec 110. So. Much. Pork.

    Sec 111. This is a major staffing issue.

    Sec 112. This is an eco-system destruction problem. Also you’ll get river bank erosion, which may undermine The Wall.

    Sec 113 Sure. Plans are good.

    Sec 114. Nope nope nope. This is a major invasion of privacy.

    Sec 115. This makes things worse. One of the major sources of illegal immigrants is visa overstay.

    Sec 116. I have generalized constitutional concerns about the government collecting DNA from anyone who is not convicted of a crime.

    Sec 117. Sure, updating manuals is good. Though not likely to actually address the problem of narcotics smuggling.

    Sec 118. This is either not possible under the time constraints or will require a number of new hires to make it happen.

    Sec 119. This is, er, very optimistic regarding the state of of criminal databases and the likelihood of foreign countries to give us free access to them. Probably not actually possible.

    Sec 120. How many people are using their arrest warrant to enter a secure airport area? But sure?

    Is that enough, or would you like me to continue?

    Nic (896fdf)

  155. I am speaking of House and Senate Republicans, not anyone here.

    You are speaking of people like Mitt Romney.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  156. ……….. Nikki Haley: 1
    Former New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie: 1
    Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis: 2
    Vivek Ramaswamy: 5
    Trump, despite not being on stage: 18

    The troll poll

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  157. Nic, the Senate is not debating that House bill. Believe it or not, the House and Senate are run by two separate groups.

    In the Senate it’s mostly Republicans, headed by Mitch McConnell who dislikes Trump as much as Trump dislikes him.

    In the House it’s mostly MAGA. Different party. They just got through kicking their coalition partner (the GOP) to the curb.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  158. The GOP has been having a screaming fit for over a year

    I guess this means you think their concerns are immature and childish. Figures.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  159. @Kevin @158/159 They both have to pass the bill. And I think they way they have been expressing their concerns has often been via excessive displays of emotional manipulation.

    Nic (896fdf)

  160. https://twitter.com/RNCResearch/status/1733259355347144791

    Joe Biden. And many here will vote for him.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  161. And I think they way they have been expressing their concerns has often been via excessive displays of emotional manipulation.

    As opposed to those that say how much Putin likes his stooges.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  162. Joe Biden. And many here will vote for him.

    If Trump is the nominee, you betcha. Try not to make that mistake.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  163. The troll poll

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 12/9/2023 @ 6:16 pm

    It’s an unscientific survey of one debate viewing party, nothing more.

    Rip Murdock (9a3b4c)

  164. @153 I don’t think the hostages families will consider that a good enough answer when a continued ceasefire would bring out more hostages to keep it going. Over 17,000 palestinian civilians have been killed and even Israel admits the south of gaza is so full of refuges hits hard to targets with out killing women and children as collateral. How many dead palestinian children will be enough for you? Kill them all they will just grow up to be terrorists anyway?

    asset (263f99)

  165. In the Senate it’s mostly Republicans, headed by Mitch McConnell who dislikes Trump as much as Trump dislikes him.

    The same Mitch McConnell who voted to acquit Trump during his impeachment trial?

    Rip Murdock (9a3b4c)

  166. https://freebeacon.com/biden-administration/hunter-biden-whistleblowers-claim-complete-vindication-after-bombshell-indictment/

    The IRS investigators who blew the whistle on Hunter Biden’s business dealings are claiming “complete vindication” after the embattled first son’s indictment on felony tax evasion charges.

    The bombshell indictment is largely consistent with details brought to light by Gary Shapley and Joseph Ziegler, IRS investigators who worked on the Biden probe. Shapley and Ziegler provided Congress with records showing Biden evaded millions of dollars in taxes on his foreign business income and took deductions for personal expenses.

    According to the indictment, Biden failed to pay $1.4 million in taxes from 2016 to 2019 and instead spent millions of dollars “on drugs, escorts and girlfriends, luxury hotels and rental properties, exotic cars, clothing, and other items of a personal nature.”

    “In short, everything but his taxes,” the indictment says.

    Biden allegedly deducted personal expenses from his taxes, including a $10,000 payment in 2018 to a Los Angeles sex club. He deducted $683,212 in payments to “various women” and $188,960 for “adult entertainment” from 2016 to 2019, according to the indictment. That information matches what Shapley and Ziegler told Congress in May.

    Shapley, Ziegler, and their attorney say the 56-page indictment validates both the IRS investigation and their decision to blow the whistle.

    The indictment is a “complete vindication” of the probe, Shapley and Ziegler said in a statement.

    “Eight months ago we did something ordinary people don’t do: we risked our careers and reputations to bring the truth out of the shadows and into the light,” the pair said. “We were moved solely by our consciences, yet faced continual attacks.”

    Their attorney, Tristan Leavitt, said Biden would not be facing felony tax changes if they had not revealed details of the probe.

    “I​​f the whistleblowers hadn’t come forward, this *clearly strong* case would have died a quiet death,” said Leavitt, the president of Empower Oversight.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  167. Well, then we’d have to discuss that he’s already paid the back taxed, fees and fines; and that the only reason he’s being charged is his last name is Biden. Anybody else (like Roger Stone) would not be.

    Sam G (8d2ed1) — 12/8/2023 @ 12:30 pm

    He hasn’t paid anything. Are you talking about his Hollywood Sugar Daddy?

    What’s he getting in return?

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  168. https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/todays-blacklisted-american-the-university-of-washington-proudly-says-no-whites-need-apply/

    The investigation’s report was obtained by the National Academy of Scholars (NAS), which noted that the department rejected the recommendations of its hiring committee expressly because one candidate recommended was white, and then arbitrarily rearranged the rankings so that all five positions would be filled with people of “color,” as the department’s own Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion office so proudly notes, even now.

    This racist hiring practice was then used as the template for a handbook [pdf] to set these discriminatory policies in stone, guaranteeing that future hiring practices continue to exclude whites and especially white men. As noted by the City Journal,

    The University of Washington is a racist cult that indoctrinates its students in anti-American behaviors.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  169. I don’t think the hostages families will consider that a good enough answer when a continued ceasefire would bring out more hostages to keep it going.

    Israel (and the US for that matter) has a blind spot when it comes to hostage negotiations. Israel has released thousands of terrorists in exchange for a few dozen hostages over the years. This last go round was no different. Hamas et. al. know how to play on the emotions of the Israeli people.

    The deaths of Israeli hostages and Palestinian civilians are the responsibility of Hamas and related groups and no one else.

    Rip Murdock (9a3b4c)

  170. Hamas started this war, but Israel is going to end it on their terms. How long it goes on, and how many civilians are killed, is up to Hamas.

    Rip Murdock (9a3b4c)

  171. You are speaking of people like Mitt Romney.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 12/9/2023 @ 6:15 pm

    Correct; and you’re point? Romney doesn’t represent the Republican voters who oppose Ukraine aid. In fact, he’s a dead man walking by not running for reelection. He’s abandoned the fight.

    Rip Murdock (9a3b4c)

  172. Those adamantly opposed Trump as President (and I am one of them) should ask themselves why Republican party leaders aren’t leading the charge against his nomination but instead have surrendered.

    Rip Murdock (9a3b4c)

  173. @171 thats an excuse that the families and many others in Israel wont except. 268 palestinians have been killed on the west bank by settlers and the soldiers protecting their stealing of more palestinian lands. Did you see who Israel released in exchange? Most were women and children held in Israeli prisons for years with out charges or trail. Two boys who were held for years were eleven and twelve and arrest for throwing rocks at settlers stealing home and land. They were being held in case Israel needed a prisoner exchange.

    asset (263f99)

  174. @155 Nic: “Is that enough, or would you like me to continue?”

    Please continue. You only went through Division A. The meat of the bill is in Division B, Title I, all sections.

    So far though, it doesn’t sound like much of a screaming fit. It’s a shame the Democrats in the Senate didn’t come back with anything other than DOA.

    lloyd (7718c0)

  175. @174 so they don’t get primaried. Republican election officials like board of supervisors are not running for reelection to be replaced by trumpsters who say they will vote for trump regardless of the votes in az.

    asset (263f99)

  176. thats an excuse that the families and many others in Israel wont except…….. </blockquote

    That’s too bad, but it’s the way it’s going to turn out.

    Did you see who Israel released in exchange? Most were women and children held in Israeli prisons for years with out charges or trail. Two boys who were held for years were eleven and twelve and arrest for throwing rocks at settlers stealing home and land. They were being held in case Israel needed a prisoner exchange.

    Future terrorists.

    Rip Murdock (cf4efa)

  177. @178 future terrorists. Sow the wind reap the whirlwind.

    asset (263f99)

  178. Rip Murdock (9a3b4c) — 12/9/2023 @ 7:07 pm

    Even Mitt Romney concedes that Trump will be the nominee. He doesn’t need to worry about a primary challenger, yet he is doing nothing to prevent Trump’s nomination.

    “I think it was over before it began,” said Sen. Mitt Romney (R-Utah), adding that former South Carolina Gov. Nikki Haley “has a shot, but a very long shot” at snagging the nomination.

    “I think Trump is the presumptive nominee and has been from day one,” Romney said.

    Rip Murdock (9a3b4c)

  179. @178 future terrorists. Sow the wind reap the whirlwind.

    asset (263f99) — 12/9/2023 @ 8:08 pm

    Which is why they should never have been released.

    Rip Murdock (cf4efa)

  180. asset (263f99) — 12/9/2023 @ 7:34 pm

    I’m not talking about local governments-I’m referring to national Republican Party leaders. They’re the ones who are tut-tutting about how bad Trump is but are not leading any effort to confront his lies about the 2020 election and what a Trump future will bring.

    Once Trump is nominated, they will have no right to complain.

    Rip Murdock (9a3b4c)

  181. @lloyd@176 No commentary on the actual concerns?

    Sec 121. Babies. Do you have any idea how many vaccines the military is required to receive? *rolls eyes in military brat*

    Sec 122. a) who wrote that sentence? Why only for perishables? And how are they using an app to inspect goods b) Why are they using the app to schedule appointments? They are only allowed to use it to inspect only perishable goods. (this section was written horribly)

    Sec 123. Shouldn’t this be DHS?

    Sec 124. Why just in securing the (poorly defined) SW border?

    Sec 125. Impossible because much of this information doesn’t exist.

    Sec 126. There are situations where EVs might be cheaper and more effective. This is just partisan nonsense.

    Sec 127. I’m pretty sure this is required elsewhere already.

    Sec 128. Is this talking about shooting down Mexican drones? I’m pretty sure we aren’t supposed to shoot across the border.

    PART B

    Sec 101. Apparently the old law had bad formatting? Please pause for a grammar and punctuation update.

    Sec 102. in which they follow the editor’s instructions to “rephrase”

    Sec 103. People who need asylum only need it if they are at a designated entry point. Desperate and afraid people are both knowledgeable and never ever make desperate decisions.

    Sec 104. This entire thing seems ripe for abuse if they made the wrong person mad.

    Sec 105. This seems silly. It is to our advantage if a person who has been granted the right to stay in the country is able to work and support themselves and pay taxes. Also immigration bureaucracy is a mess. Requiring renewal every 6 months is not going to make it any better and it created an unnecessary underclass of people who are here legally, began working legally, but were not able to get renewal in a timely manner.

    Sec 106. *laughs* OH noes not enough asylum fees! Must charge 50$!. In case you aren’t aware, immigration requires an immigration physical, which can only be done by a special immigration doctor at an immigration clinic and costs $1000 and they don’t take insurance.

    Sec 107. This whole thing is a mess that is either ignorant or unconcerned with the realities of life and politics outside the US. There are countries where the entire government functions “outside it’s official capacity.”

    Sec 108. Resided needs to be defined here. Part 3 is a mess. Not all parents are responsible ones.

    Sec 109. Ignores that the circumstances in a country may change.

    Sec 110. More editing instructions.

    Sec 111. unfunded mandate.

    Nic (896fdf)

  182. BTW, Penix might not have won a Heisman but his outfit was an excellent gesture, and purple to boot.
    Winning a national championship would be a good way of showing those voters wrong.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  183. Correct; and you’re point? Romney doesn’t represent the Republican voters who oppose Ukraine aid. In fact, he’s a dead man walking by not running for reelection. He’s abandoned the fight.

    Project much?

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  184. I expect, when they do pass the Ukraine bill, that GOP will have got what they wanted. Is Ukraine important? Of course it is. Is not letting 2 million people a year enter (through a immigration loophole because the progressives think it’s to their advantage) important, yes, it is too.

    Which is more important? Can’t say, but plenty of people here seem to be able.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  185. @183 “No commentary on the actual concerns?”

    You must have missed it. Read my comment again. Here’s more:

    I’m glad you were able to demonstrate, on your own, that you take this attempt by the Republicans to fix real problems with the asylum process about as seriously as Democrats have. Thanks for taking the time.

    lloyd (7718c0)

  186. @lloyd@187 Oh, I did read your comment. You didn’t comment on my actual concerns. And I see that you haven’t done so again. It was a bad attempt and bad law, I suspect because in several places they weren’t trying to write law, they were trying to write politics. If they make a better attempt, I’ll be glad to review that one for you.

    Nic (896fdf)

  187. Things written by the House Freedom Caucus are low-hanging fruit. Pretty much like any law written by The Squad.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  188. @Kevin@189 I don’t disagree, but lloyd wanted to know what my thoughts were on HR2, so I obliged him by sharing them.

    Nic (896fdf)

  189. @190 Ah of course, if not for punctuation and grammar issues, the legislation would be fine. Unserious.

    lloyd (7718c0)

  190. @lloyd@191 No. I stated where the various issues were in the run down. Grammar and punctuation were what was being corrected in those sections. I was not critiquing them for grammar and punctuation, I was summarizing what was in those sections. Did you not read the law?

    Nic (896fdf)

  191. @182 Similar problem primaried if running hounded and family threatened if not. As NON- ignorant southern white trash and native american I know these people. This is how they treat black people and jews. They are just applying it to republican politicians who are not use to being treated like sub human vermin.

    asset (263f99)

  192. I have a problem with this conclusion: today’s polls suggest that Trump can in fact win.

    My problem is that downplays the tsunami that is rushing towards our shores. I’ve seen little attack ads against Trump thus far. I’ll admit that I don’t search for them on-line or know what is running in Iowa or New Hampshire. But suffice to say that if we don’t see them in the primary, they will explode on the scene in the general election. We will see unconscious Capitol police being dragged helplessly out of the Capitol with a cut to Trump sitting passively watching it for hours in the White House….and now suggesting pardons for those convicted.

    We will see ads of Trump extolling the genius of Putin after he started his invasion of Ukraine…the genius of Hezbollah attacking Israel post Oct 7. We will see ads of Trump’s closest national security advisors saying he is unfit for the office and that he plans to recklessly turn his back on NATO and S. Korea. We will see ads of Trump claiming special rules when it comes to sexual assault….and how he paid off porn stars for sex while circumventing campaign finance laws…and his infamous “grab them by the pu$$y”. We will see ads showing classified documents stored in bathrooms and Mar-a-Lago closets because Trump could not concede that he was obliged to give them back.

    Then, while the tsunami grows, we will have the earthquake of an ex-President being put on trial for J6 obstruction and conspiracy. His principle witnesses against him will be Republicans, mostly ones from his administration. We will have daily reminders of his awfulness followed likely by a conviction. Any interlocutory appeals to the Supreme Court will likely not go his way. Damage control will require the horrible discussion of self pardons and questioning of the legitimacy of our justice system. We will be warned that MAGA zealots will head the DoJ, FBI, CIA, and will sit as his #2. The idea that Trump will not hemorrhage support is inconceivable. 50% of the country is not radicalized. Hell, 50% of the GOP is even a stretch.

    Then, we get the start of a second trial where the evidence seems even more incontrovertible. By this point, Trump will be unable to constrain his outbursts and social media reactions. He will implode and act more unhinged and extreme…because that’s what desperate unhinged people facing potetial incarceration do. This will even build a significant resistance in the GOP to eject him from the ticket. Polls in October will crater. His electability will be nil. It’s hardly a stretch to consider it.

    Now we could see legal delays and even a hung jury. We could see Biden have a stroke. We can see an economic downturn or an international crisis bungled by team Biden. There’s no guarantees…but to imply there’s no tsunami of bad Trump news approaching is unrealistic. At some point right-wing media will even have to acknowledge it and choose how to address its reality. There is a reckoning approaching….we should accept the probability of it.

    I can’t make a $100M ad buy or generate mass mailings for GOP voters. Deep pockets are needed to make the dual case of unelectability and unfitness. Will we yet see them before the tsunami hits? Or will Trump’s inevitability argument win out?

    AJ_Liberty (d082cd)

  193. Correct; and you’re point? Romney doesn’t represent the Republican voters who oppose Ukraine aid. In fact, he’s a dead man walking by not running for reelection. He’s abandoned the fight.

    Project much?

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 12/9/2023 @ 9:25 pm

    I’m not a Senator with political influence. Romney was.

    Rip Murdock (9a3b4c)

  194. Ouch!

    Rip Murdock (9a3b4c)

  195. So, now the campus antisemitism story has become “Republicans pounce

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  196. I can’t make a $100M ad buy or generate mass mailings for GOP voters. Deep pockets are needed to make the dual case of unelectability and unfitness. Will we yet see them before the tsunami hits? Or will Trump’s inevitability argument win out?

    AJ_Liberty (d082cd) — 12/10/2023 @ 7:35 am

    As I wrote above:

    Those who adamantly oppose Trump as President (and I am one of them) should ask themselves why Republican party leaders aren’t leading the charge against his nomination but instead have surrendered.

    From the first link:

    ……………
    (Trump) may never have been beatable. For all the obsessive coverage about who wealthy GOP donors fancy, it’s Republican primary voters without college degrees who are the defining bloc in this race. Trump’s enduring grip on them is why he’ll be so hard to defeat and why GOP leaders are so reluctant to cross him.
    ……………….

    Rip Murdock (f97e54)

  197. So, now the campus antisemitism story has become “Republicans pounce“

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 12/10/2023 @ 8:18 am

    Turns out they were right.

    Rip Murdock (f97e54)

  198. Those who adamantly oppose Trump as President (and I am one of them) should ask themselves why Republican party leaders aren’t leading the charge against his nomination but instead have surrendered.

    They surrendered in 2015 and nothing has changed since. A few briefly tried to dump Trump after J6, but those same deep-pocket donors demanded a second surrender.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  199. Kevin M (ed969f) — 12/10/2023 @ 8:25 am

    If the Republican political or corporate leadership can’t or won’t stop Trump, then Trump will inevitably be the nominee.

    Someone (Haley, DeSantis, Christie) needs to show some heretofore unknown political support that eats into Trump’s lead. So far they are cannibalizing from each other, and nothing from Trump. His polling leads have not diminished.

    Rip Murdock (f97e54)

  200. So far Haley, DeSantis, and Christie have the Republican college educated, professional, wine and cheese crowd, but they’re not Trump’s base.

    Rip Murdock (f97e54)

  201. So far they are cannibalizing from each other

    That should stop. Even if they have to draw lots. Since only two of them will be in the next debate, on NBC, I’d suggest that they make that debate be the decider.

    Christie is running on ego and bile at this point. Vivek is there as Trump’s assassination insurance.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  202. Will we yet see them before the tsunami hits? Or will Trump’s inevitability argument win out?

    Since the other candidates cannot seem to attack Trump, and even Christie isn’t buying anti-Trump ads, I’d suggest a “Pick Someone Else” PAC running non-denominational anti_trump ads.

    Where is the Lincoln Project when you need them?

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  203. Christie is running to sell books.

    NJRob (6d4815)

  204. Christie is running to sell books.

    Most expensive book tour in history.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  205. Fast forward to next September when the Republican parties in swing states are suing to replace multiple-felon Trump on the state ballot, over the opposition of Democrat election officials.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  206. https://thehill.com/opinion/criminal-justice/4350910-with-hunters-indictment-democrats-face-a-moment-of-maddening-truth/

    T]he evidence has only mounted against President Biden. It is now clear that Biden lied when he maintained as a candidate, and later as president, that he had no knowledge of his son’s business dealings with foreign interests. Even Hunter himself contradicted the president on this claim.

    It is also now clear that he lied in denying that his son never made money in China. The indictment confirms massive transfers from Chinese sources.

    It is also clear that Hunter was engaged in raw influence peddling. This included threatening at least one Chinese businessman that his father was sitting next to him and would retaliate against him if he did not send millions to the Bidens.

    President Biden also lied when he claimed this week that he had not had any “interactions” with his son’s business associates. There are emails, audiotapes and testimony now disproving that claim.

    Millions of dollars flowed to Biden family members through a labyrinth of shell companies and accounts. Hunter Biden sent emails saying that up to half of his income went to his father while they used shared accounts and credit cards for expenses.

    Even Biden associates now admit that they were selling “the Biden brand” and influence with Joe Biden. Advocates simply argue that they were merely selling the “illusion” of influence.

    It is now time to see if a single Democratic member will stand against corruption and support an inquiry into the president’s role and later cover-up of this corruption. That includes the use of White House staff to spread false claims and attack critics.

    NJRob (6d4815)

  207. So whatTV if Biden lied to the public about his relationship with Hunter’s businesses (I’m not conceding he did). If the lies were under oath, then he should be impeached. But if the lies weren’t, they shouldn’t be impeachable; if that’s the new standard then every president from now on should be impeached.

    Rip Murdock (f97e54)

  208. DeSantis is an over-ambitious, nasty, political hack. Haley is out of her league but you can’t blame a girl for trying. Christie is a loser with nothing better to do, spending other people’s (his donors’) money to get him out of the house. Ramasalami is not worth thinking about.

    I’d vote for Trump before voting for any of them, and I cannot imagine any circumstances under which I would vote for Trump. I would leave the box blank.

    Trump forced me to vote for a couple of second-raters like Biden and Harris, but just that once. He will not get me to do it again with anybody else.

    nk (b769c8)

  209. So far they are cannibalizing from each other

    That should stop. Even if they have to draw lots. Since only two of them will be in the next debate, on NBC, I’d suggest that they make that debate be the decider.

    They’re cannibalizing from each other because there are few policy differences between them. Their supporters aren’t Trump supporters from the start. Until DeSantis, Haley, adopt Trump’s policies, there’s no reason for Trump’s supporters to change candidates. The Lilliputians will remain Lilliputians because they’re not Gulliver.

    Rip Murdock (f97e54)

  210. The RNC, seeing that their debate conditions could become irrelevant, since they had no more debates scheduled anyway and since all the important candidates except Donald Trump were going to participate in other debates, withdrew their prohibition on participating in non-RNC sponsored debates,

    Sammy Finkelman (c2c77e)

  211. Desantis’ entire campaign is based on Trump being considered unsuitable for public office by enough Republican voters to enable him to become the chief contender, and then becoming the next bestv choice of would-be Trump voters.

    Sammy Finkelman (c2c77e)

  212. Curious, the American right-wing fascination with a right-winger like Viktor Orban, and the Heritage Foundation is now clearly right-wing, joining right-winger Tucker Carlson into Orban’s fan club.

    Last March, the Heritage Foundation cut a deal with the Danube Institute, which is owned by the Hungarian government (they’ve made no deals with other foreign think tanks). In October 2022, Heritage was in Ukraine’s corner, supporting US efforts to supply them aid. After March 2023, their views aligned with Orban’s. It’s unclear if or how cash went int Heritage coffers after that arrangement. They’ve also aligned with Trump’s populist politics, dispensing with traditionally conservative positions.

    This week, Orban’s allies are having closed-door meetings with Heritage, and some of the attendees will include “Republican members of Congress”.

    The meeting will take place against a backdrop of tense debate in Washington over Ukraine’s future. Last week the White House warned that, without congressional action, money to buy more weapons and equipment for Kyiv will run out by the end of the year. On Wednesday Senate Republicans blocked an emergency spending bill to fund the war in Ukraine.

    A diplomatic source close to the Hungarian embassy said: “Orbán is confident that the Ukraine aid will not pass in Congress. That is why he is trying to block assistance from the EU as well.”

    Orbán is a frequent critic of aid to help Ukraine against the Russian invasion. Seen as Vladimir Putin’s closest ally inside the EU for the past few years, he was photographed smiling and shaking hands with the Russian president two months ago in Beijing.

    Orban is trying to veto 50 billion Euro in EU aid to Ukraine, basically acting as Putin’s European agent.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  213. Desantis’ entire campaign is based on Trump being considered unsuitable for public office by enough Republican voters to enable him to become the chief contender, and then becoming the next bestv choice of would-be Trump voters.

    Sammy Finkelman (c2c77e) — 12/10/2023 @ 10:44 am

    How’s that working out?

    Rip Murdock (f97e54)

  214. NJRob (eb56c3) — 12/9/2023 @ 6:37 pm

    He hasn’t paid anything. Are you talking about his Hollywood Sugar Daddy?

    Yes he is, but it counts as a payment by Hunter Biden. The Mafia used to do this too occsionally.It is acceptable to the IRS for someone else to pay your income taxes — in any case Hunter probably paid the money and he got the money in the form of a loan, so it is not taxable. It will be if the loan is forgiven. Hunter is probably also being charged interest at the minimum rate. I am sure they lawyer has an endgame figured out,

    What’s he getting in return?

    Joe Biden as president. He could want that for any number of reasons.

    Sammy Finkelman (c2c77e)

  215. ……..The Republican Party In Washington is reflecting its base and just doesn’t support aid for Ukraine………

    Rip Murdock (5ad73d) — 12/9/2023 @ 12:17 pm

    ……….
    A new Pew Research Center survey, conducted Nov. 27 to Dec. 3, 2023, among 5,203 members of the Center’s nationally representative American Trends Panel, finds that:

    48% of Republicans and Republican-leaning independents say the U.S. is giving too much aid to Ukraine. This share is up modestly from June, when 44% said this, and is substantially higher than it was at earlier stages in the war.
    …………
    In the first weeks of the war, Republicans were only 4 percentage points more likely than Democrats to say the U.S. was providing too much aid to Ukraine (9% vs. 5%). Today, Republicans are 32 points more likely to say this.
    …………..
    ………….. Democrats are more likely than Republicans to say Russia’s invasion is a major threat (40% vs. 27%)……….
    …………
    ………… A majority of Democrats (59%) approve of the administration’s response, while 22% disapprove. In contrast, a slightly larger majority of Republicans (63%) disapprove of the administration’s response, while 21% approve.
    ………….

    Rip Murdock (f97e54)

  216. I remember when Trump was held liable for fraud for his Trump University scheme, and ordered to pay $25 million to his victims, but he didn’t actually pay a penny. His billionaire Vegas hotel business partner, Phil Ruffin, made the payout, saying that he owed Trump $28 million in “back-fees”. Fortuitous timing for Trump.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  217. https://www.thecollegefix.com/niu-hosts-seminar-on-ending-white-linguistic-hegemony/

    Black students should not be penalized for using “Black Language” and college courses should critically interrogate “white linguistic hegemony and anti-Black linguistic racism,” said a scholar who gave a presentation recently at Northern Illinois University.

    “People’s language experiences are not separate from their racial experiences,” the University of Michigan’s April Baker-Bell told an online audience during a November workshop for faculty and graduate students at Northern Illinois University.

    The way black language is “devalued in classrooms reflects how Black lives are devalued in the world,” she told attendees. “Similarly, the way we think about this notion of standard mainstream English is directly connected to the invisible way that White culture is often deemed normal, neutral, and superior in the world.”

    Destroying literacy one college seminar at a time. Send your children to institutions of indoctrination and turn their brains to mush.

    NJRob (6d4815)

  218. “I’m not a Senator with political influence. Romney was.”

    Trump supporters don’t watch Meet the Press or CNN and don’t read NYT op eds. They watch Fox and though Brett Baier can ask tough questions, team Fox…as illustrated by the Dominion discovery…understands what content it needs to deliver to its viewers and how to spin the day’s politics. Talk Radio is equally disinterested in promoting Romney’s “Trump Derangement Syndrome”. Trump supporters will also be dubious of Never-Trumpers making what they view as a self-serving argument. So the question becomes how do you break into that bubble when there is a praetorian guard of financial interest trying to keep people out? Frankly, it still might not be possible…though that doesn’t mean don’t try.

    Historically people do decide late in many primary contests. I think you need to flood the airwaves (TV, phone, and internet) with tsunami 101. Trump is unelectable. He has too much baggage. His actions were inexcusable on J6. He caused his own problems with the classified documents case. He’s too chaotic with his decision-making. He’s lost all of his good advisers and doesn’t have the talent left to check his worst impulses. The polls having him beating Biden don’t reflect the negativity of a trial plus the fallout from his other court cases. His NATO hang-up is dangerous to national security. He doesn’t respect the limits of the Constitution and it will just keep getting himself in trouble. The country can’t afford a perpetually wounded President, one who may very well be convicted before inauguration, and one who is also facing state charges that have no hope of a self pardon.

    This is the chisel. There will be pushback. The media will not throw away their meal ticket and their proximity to power easily. But the argument needs to be made….through a forum people will consider….by people that they have some hope of trusting. Trump supporters take everything personally. Coax, don’t scold.

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  219. I’m not a Senator with political influence. Romney was.

    Rip Murdock (9a3b4c) — 12/10/2023 @ 7:54 am

    What would you have Romney do? He voted to convict Trump when Trump was impeached. He has publicly criticized Trump many times. He will turn 77 before his term is concluded. I say job well done, and enjoy your old age with your family and friends. Plus, his voice will carry more weight if he retires than it would if he loses a primary a la Liz Cheney.

    Trumpers, with their cartoonish understanding of politics, get all giddy just thinking about Cheney.

    Besides, you can’t lead Republican voters to places they don’t want to go.

    norcal (23b995)

  220. Oops. I just violated AJ’s advice about coaxing instead of scolding. I resolve to do better.

    norcal (23b995)

  221. “Orbán is confident that the Ukraine aid will not pass in Congress. That is why he is trying to block assistance from the EU as well.”

    The Polish trucker’s blockade, which is supposed to exclude military,medical and some food shipments, but which is causing prolonged delays of everything, is more serious,

    I think some Republicans want Ukraine aid nit to pass (and they can maniopulate the negotiations) because a disaster will harm Biden’s re-election chances.

    It is possible that a bill will pass, but the Democrats would be trading permanent changes in law for a temporary continuation of Ukraine aid. Then the same issue will happen all over again because none of this will stop border crossing. The Republicans are sort of claiming that by making the United States look unwelcoming, people will change their minds. It takes a long time to do that and two or three month’s worth are already on their way. It will cause the balance to tilt in favor of completely illegal and uninspected entries, however.

    The mainstream Republicans are blaming Biden for linking the two subjects, but Ukraine aid was in danger anyway. Are they saying that when the Democrats put immigration into the bill, it was like sharks smelling blood in the water?

    If more aid to Ukraine fails to, Russia will not gain ground, because it is so incapable, but more Ukrainians could be killed. Putin will not invade a NATO country and European countries will increase their aid.

    If Ukraine aid fails, I expect a continuing resolution will also fail because Biden will be in no mood to sign a continuing resolution or appropriation bill without aid o Ukraine.

    The Democrats say Biden has given them most of what they want on asylum but won’t give in on humanitarian parole,

    Sammy Finkelman (c2c77e)

  222. For those who pooh pooh the idea that Trump would be more dangerous in a second term:

    The core fallacy in all of these rationalizations about the allegedly low risk of a second Trump term is that he’s the same guy as he was in his first term. He didn’t do anything too nutty policy-wise back then. Why would we think he’d do something nutty policy-wise next time?

    The answer: Because he’s not precisely the same guy as he was in his first term.

    By and large, he is that same guy. That’s how Democrats and Never Trumpers were able to see the wolf coming the first time. Trump is Trump is Trump. You don’t need a degree in political history to recognize his type.

    But he’s worse now than he was then. He’s old, and age takes away some self-restraint. He’s terrified about going to prison and enraged at those trying to send him there. He’s gorged himself for years on lavish right-wing propaganda about his own greatness and the depravity of his enemies. He’s cocooned in a thick bubble of slavish yes-men who treat him like a king. He’s en route to a much more decisive primary victory than he enjoyed in his first run and presides over a party in which there’s no longer any meaningful dissent to his leadership.

    In 2016, Trump had an actual political program. In this cycle, his program is personal revenge. Implicitly and eventually explicitly, the highest purpose of his presidential campaign will simply be to place him beyond the reach of the law. If he wins on those terms, he’ll interpret it as a mandate from the people to indulge his “retribution” instincts. A country willing to hand him a “get out of jail free” card is willing to let him do anything, he’ll reason—not unreasonably.

    And because he’ll be term-limited as president (in theory!), he won’t care if it turns out that he misunderstood that mandate.

    Take it from those of us who spotted the wolf approaching once before: It’s rabid this time.

    https://thedispatch.com/newsletter/boilingfrogs/beer-track-and-meth-track/

    This is from Nick Catoggio, whom our host has deemed the best writer on the internet. Nick is spot-on.

    norcal (23b995)

  223. The evidence has only mounted against President Biden

    Nobody cares. Look at the way that some ignore Trump’s many crimes to focus instead on Biden’s son. Ignoring innuendo and speculation about Biden will be MUCH easier.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  224. Yes he is, but it counts as a payment by Hunter Biden.

    The current charges against Hunter Biden include actions AFTER his previous debts were paid. As late as 2020, he was filing (or not filing) false returns.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  225. How’s that working out?

    No plan survives contact with the enemy.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  226. For those who pooh pooh the idea that Trump would be more dangerous in a second term

    Some cabinet ideas

    Secretary of State: Vivek Ramaswamy
    Secretary of the Treasury: Jared Kushner
    Secretary of Defense: Rand Paul (or maybe Marianne Williamson)
    Surgeon General: Robert F Kennedy Jr
    Secretary of Education: Elsie Stefanik
    Attorney General: Sidney Powell

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  227. What would you have Romney do?

    Spend some of that Bain Capital money on independent advertising outlining the dangers of nominating Trump.

    Rip Murdock (f97e54)

  228. Besides, you can’t lead Republican voters to places they don’t want to go.

    norcal (23b995) — 12/10/2023 @ 12:01 pm

    That I agree with, which a lot of people fail to understand. Trump voters, irrespective of what his future criminal trials portend, will vote for him anyway.

    Rip Murdock (f97e54)

  229. “Oops. I just violated AJ’s advice about coaxing instead of scolding. I resolve to do better.”

    Haaa. Too funny. You do fine!

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  230. WSJ National Poll 12/9/23

    ………
    (President Joe) Biden lags behind Trump by 4 percentage points, 47% to 43%, on a hypothetical ballot with only those two candidates. Trump’s lead expands to 6 points, 37% to 31%, when five potential third-party and independent candidates are added to the mix. They take a combined 17% support, with Democrat-turned-independent Robert F. Kennedy Jr. drawing the most, at 8%.

    Unhappiness with Biden is pervasive in the new survey, though much of it appears among Democratic-leaning groups who might still back the president on Election Day. …….
    ………
    The poll finds some evidence that while views of Trump have long been fixed among the public, voters hold a dim view of some of the former president’s qualities, which the Biden campaign could amplify. Voters say that the word “corrupt” applies more to Trump than to Biden, and Biden is seen by more voters as honest. A felony conviction for Trump, who faces 91 charges in four criminal prosecutions, would shift the head-to-head ballot to give Biden a slight, 1-point lead, within the poll’s margin of error, the survey finds.
    ……….
    “If this race is about policy and performance, then Donald Trump has a significant advantage,” said (Republican pollster Tony Fabrizio), who also works for a Trump super PAC. “If this race is about temperament and character, things like that, then Biden has an advantage.”
    ……….
    While the poll finds Trump with a dominating lead in the Republican primary, with nearly 60% support, it suggests that Nikki Haley would be the stronger general-election candidate. Haley, a former South Carolina governor and U.N. ambassador, tops Biden in a test match-up by 17 points, 51% to 34%, compared with Trump’s four-point lead.

    Ron DeSantis, the Florida governor, ties Biden at 45% each. DeSantis had led Biden by 3 points in a Journal survey in April.
    ……….
    Third-party and independent candidates complicate the picture. The Journal survey finds that Kennedy would draw more support from Trump than from Biden, but that other possible candidates would take an even greater share of voters from Biden. These candidates must meet ballot-access requirements that vary by state, and the final ballot lineup in each state isn’t yet known.
    ……….

    As AJ_Liberty is fond of mentioning, polls this far out from the election (in this case, 331 days) will not be indicative of the final result. In addition, polls including independent candidates are highly speculative, since they need to actually qualify for individual state ballots.

    From the poll:

    (REPUBLICAN PRIMARY VOTERS) If the Republican Presidential (Caucus/Primary) were held today, for which of the following candidates would you vote?

    Donald Trump ….59%
    Nikki Haley……15
    Ron DeSantis…..14
    Vivek Ramaswamy ..4
    Chris Christie …2
    Undecided………6

    And (if the election was held today, and you voted for Donald Trump) would you say your vote is more a vote FOR Donald Trump OR a vote AGAINST Joe Biden?

    FOR Donald Trump…..40
    AGAINST Joe Biden …32
    Both …………….27

    And (if the election was held today, and you voted for Joe Biden) would you say your vote is more a vote FOR Joe Biden OR a vote AGAINST Donald Trump?

    FOR Joe Biden ……….21
    AGAINST Donald Trump….51
    Both ……………….27

    See page 16 at the poll link for similar questions regarding Ron DeSantis and Nikki Haley.

    Rip Murdock (9fbe8a)

  231. Haley, a former South Carolina governor and U.N. ambassador, tops Biden in a test match-up by 17 points, 51% to 34%

    Not that this matters to MAGA, which has never been about “winning elections” but about “pwning the Dems”

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  232. It’s almost like there is an agenda other than what we think there is….

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  233. Haley, a former South Carolina governor and U.N. ambassador, tops Biden in a test match-up by 17 points, 51% to 34%

    Not that this matters to MAGA, which has never been about “winning elections” but about “pwning the Dems”

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 12/10/2023 @ 3:37 pm

    Among the politer terms they use for her is“NikkiMcRomBush”.

    Rip Murdock (f97e54)

  234. RIP, David Drake, military SF writer, 78

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  235. What do you expect from a pack of incels.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  236. If MAGA is 40% of the GOP, which itself is 30% of the electorate, then they only comprise 12% of voters. It looks like Nikki could win the general election without them. THe actual Republcian Party could benefit from that.

    “Kiss my ass, MAGA!”

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  237. Rip Murdock (9a3b4c) — 12/9/2023 @ 2:05 pm

    Sad!

    In an eleventh-hour reversal, former President Donald Trump announced Sunday he will not go back on the witness stand in the $250 million civil fraud trial against him and his company.

    “I have already testified to everything & have nothing more to say other than this is a complete & total election interference (Biden campaign!) witch hunt” so “I will not be testifying on Monday,” Trump said in an all-caps, two-part post on his social media platform Truth Social.

    Trump had been scheduled to testify Monday as one of the final defense witnesses in a trial that has lasted two months and is entering its final week of testimony.
    ………….
    Trump was under no obligation to testify since it’s his own defense case. His son Eric Trump similarly backed out of testifying this past Wednesday, which the elder Trump said in a social media post on Tuesday night he’d directed him to do.
    …………
    ………. (I)n his Truth Social posts on Sunday, writing in all-caps: “I have very successfully & conclusively testified” in the AG’s “rigged trial against me.” “The only fraud committed was by the highly partisan & out of control judge, & racist A.G.,” he claimed.
    ………….

    Rip Murdock (f97e54)

  238. Kevin M (ed969f) — 12/10/2023 @ 6:10 pm

    The only problem is that Haley needs to win the nomination first.

    Rip Murdock (f97e54)

  239. The only problem is that Haley needs to win the nomination first.

    Yeah. Four more years of Joe Biden then. If Trump is only 4 points up, when the economy is getting better and Trump’s PR is about to tank, Biden will beat Trump in a landslide.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  240. It’s said that the latest GOP debate was a ratings disaster, but for The CW it was the best rated show in 5 years.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  241. @238 “If” maga is 40% Another 35% are populists who like trump about 1/3 of which support desatan. This is important the rest is not. Biden was elected president by 43,000 votes az, ga. and wi. all trump has to do is get them and a billion votes for biden in california will mean squat. Ad mi, va. and pa. and that is where the 2024 election will be decided. I keep saying the ;but the never trump dreamers ignore reality.

    asset (93b58b)

  242. Ewwwww……

    Rip Murdock (f97e54)

  243. Kevin M (ed969f) — 12/10/2023 @ 6:24 pm

    Comparing the ratings of the first three debates with the last one isn’t really fair. The fourth debate was livestreamed on an obscure news site and even more obscure teen-oriented network. Its ratings on the CW are high only relative to its regular shows, whose shows are usually in the cellar.

    Rip Murdock (f97e54)

  244. Four more years of Joe Biden then. If Trump is only 4 points up, when the economy is getting better and Trump’s PR is about to tank, Biden will beat Trump in a landslide.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 12/10/2023 @ 6:19 pm

    Not necessarily:

    If it is held, Trump’s 4-point lead over Biden would be a significant impediment for the current president, as Trump won the White House in 2016 and nearly won in 2020 while trailing significantly in the national popular vote. This suggests that only a Biden lead of several points in national surveys would give his campaign comfort that it could win in enough states to build an Electoral College majority.

    Rip Murdock (f97e54)

  245. RIP, David Drake, military SF writer, 78

    May he rest in peace. I had not realized that he was that old.

    I enjoyed his books at some point in my life, but like I heard on a mini series on Roku, you can never read the same book twice. The book has not changed, but you have.

    nk (40f66d)

  246. you can never read the same book twice. The book has not changed, but you have.

    nk (40f66d) — 12/10/2023 @ 7:29 pm

    Does that include books by Mark Twain? Somehow I doubt it. 😁

    You quote him with a facility that belies a single reading.

    norcal (520473)

  247. @246 for democrat to win they have to be up 2 to 3 points at minimum. Clinton was up 3 points and lost. If trump is up by even 1 point he wins big.

    asset (93b58b)

  248. I believe that it was Roughing It that I told you I have been reading on and off since I was a kid and always finding something new in it. Same book, same words, but me with a different perspective on the events Twain relates, and a different understanding of what the words mean and what they evoke.

    nk (40f66d)

  249. @245: Yes, my point.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  250. Mark Twain’s writings were things of many parts. Combat SF not so much.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  251. Over the years I have re-read many books, mostly SF. Some of them hold up (e.g. the 1961 publisher’s version of Stranger in a Strange Land (as opposed to the terrible, no good “uncut” version)) some don’t (e.g. Foundation).

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  252. Biden’s party is at best moderate supporters of Israel like me who consider dealing with hamas is a necessary evil considering the collateral damage to civilians. That is half the party. The other half want ceasefire now and it is growing with every newscasts showing dying children. Israel better hurry up if it wants to get rid of hamas. Most here are strong supporters of Israel who say what ever it takes and how long it takes and while were at it get rid of the anti semites on collage campuses. You are in a minority with little power to persuade the corporate establishment deep state and their figurehead joe biden. By the way their was a reason vulnerable private collage presidents were grilled and not state schools who have political friends who could hit back hard.

    asset (93b58b)

  253. nk (40f66d) — 12/10/2023 @ 8:40 pm
    Kevin M (ed969f) — 12/10/2023 @ 10:03 pm

    I agree. I have never re-read the any of IA’s science fiction. His ideas are great, but his writing of dialogue is one dimensional to me. All his characters seem to have the same vocab and use the same idioms. I have re-read some of his non-fiction, though.

    felipe (5e2a04)

  254. Biden’s people are saying to the news media that there’s a difference between answering a poll question and casting an actual vote.

    In other words, they are saying that a percentage of people who answer polls are answering strategically: Saying they would vote for Trump in order to try to get the Democrats to name another nominee. But they wouldn’t actually vote for for Trump over Biden.

    Sammy Finkelman (b434ee)

  255. The start of The Foundation is pretty good, but Asimov spoiled it at about the time he introduced the Mule.

    Incidentally, neither Foundation, or much other science fiction like Star Trek, anticipated the idea of a black hole at the enter of the galaxy, even after the idea of black holes was around.

    Sammy Finkelman (b434ee)

  256. According to Sid Rosenberg, Trump is beginning to think he could carry \new \york (which I’ve read bbefore0

    Meanwhile, Trump is trolling people on the word “dicTATOR”

    Sammy Finkelman (b434ee)

  257. @174

    Those adamantly opposed Trump as President (and I am one of them) should ask themselves why Republican party leaders aren’t leading the charge against his nomination but instead have surrendered.

    Rip Murdock (9a3b4c) — 12/9/2023 @ 7:07 pm

    Because it’s not their job.

    It’s YOUR job to do so.

    It’s MY job to do so.

    It’s EVERYONE HERE’s job to do so.

    These politicians, whether in leadership or not, are put on their seats because of the voter’s will.

    Just because they’re in leadership doesn’t always mean they’re going to do exactly what you want them to do.

    IT’S up to US to weigh and measure them every election, and it’s ONLY at the polls where we can hold them to account.

    whembly (5f7596)

  258. asset (93b58b) — 12/10/2023 @ 6:34 pm

    Biden was elected president by 43,000 votes az, ga. and wi. all trump has to do is get them

    A candidate never has a special appeal or campaign that affects just strategically placed voters. So this talk of 43,000 voters is wrong.

    and a billion votes for biden in California will mean squat.

    The Dem vote is so concentrated geographically that that factor is more important than the effect of general ticket system

    Sammy Finkelman (b434ee)

  259. @ asset Hamas stoppd the prisoner exchanges. It was a Black Friday sale – now Hamas wants the release of all of their prisoners and n end to the war.

    Sammy Finkelman (b434ee)

  260. Because it’s not their job.

    It’s YOUR job to do so.

    Where is Mayor Daley when we need him?

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  261. Trump’s favorite bit from Hamilton:

    You’ll be back, soon, you’ll see
    You’ll remember you belong to me
    You’ll be back, time will tell
    You’ll remember that I served you well
    Oceans rise, empires fall
    We have seen each other through it all
    And when push comes to shove
    I will send the National Guard to remind you of my love!

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  262. This, all of this:
    https://www.nationalreview.com/2023/12/the-ongoing-campaign-of-anti-trump-subterfuge/


    But that’s different from abusing investigative processes and leveraging the presumed professionalism and moral authority of current and former national-security and law-enforcement officials for a political campaign against one man.

    The vapors over Trump saying he’s going to target his enemies is rich coming from people who have targeted their enemy by any means necessary for years now.

    It goes without saying that Trump is a provocateur who freaks out his opponents even when he’s on relatively good behavior. And his conduct after the 2020 election was genuinely alarming and deeply wrong. Trump shouldn’t even be saying he’s going to target his enemies, let alone actually do it if he takes power again.

    Yet the coverage of his statements makes it sound as though we are starting on a fresh playing field, where everything has been strictly by the book since 2016.

    You’d never know that back then, top law-enforcement officials began a poorly predicted investigation into Trump-campaign officials, lied to the FISA court, connived to win appointment of a special counsel, and then, that special counsel — puffed up by the press with “walls are closing in,” “only Mueller knows” coverage — kept his investigation going well after he knew there was nothing there.

    It’s unmentioned that in 2020, two weeks before Election Day, former national-security officials, some of whom were highly respected, put their names to a letter meant to mislead about the Hunter laptop; Biden, from the debate stage, lied about that laptop and his son’s business dealing; and Twitter censored the story and much of the rest of the media treated it as a non-event at best.

    And, oh yeah, Biden Justice Department officials and Democratic prosecutors are currently trying to put the other side’s leading contender for the White House in jail. As a warm-up act, they are also attempting to kneecap his business in a trial, or “trial,” in which the verdict has already been decided.

    Almost all these charges are unworthy, dubious, or imprudent, but that hasn’t stopped Trump’s pursuers, most of whom have wanted their trials to start, for some reason, in March right after the Republican nomination will probably be decided.

    Trump’s critics would be on firmer ground objecting to his declared campaign of vengeance if they had been willing to forebear during any of these episodes; if they had ever insisted on neutrality or fair play; if they’d been willing to look beyond the man they loathe and make judgments based on truth and professional standards.

    Instead, they’ve lit a fuse while pretending that they’re opposed to pyrotechnics, with consequences as yet unknown.

    whembly (5f7596)

  263. Yeah, all those criminal charges are just made up. Right.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  264. Kevin M (ed969f) — 12/10/2023 @ 12:49 pm

    Secretary of State: Vivek Ramaswamy
    Secretary of the Treasury: Jared Kushner
    Secretary of Defense: Rand Paul (or maybe Marianne Williamson)
    Surgeon General: Robert F Kennedy Jr
    Secretary of Education: Elsie Stefanik
    Attorney General: Sidney Powell

    Vivek Ramaswamy would not get confirmed. Maybe trade negotiator. Jared Kushner Secretary of State, despite the nepotism, and Congress would make that possible in order to prevent somebody worse. Maybe Steven Mnuchin again Secretary of the Treasury. Trump wouldn’t try Sidney Powell – besides she’s been convicted. Elise Stefanik is almost a normal Republican, except she’s hooked her star to false claims of stealing the election.

    Lots of people sponsored by Russia in consultation with the Heritage Foundation, abd Steve Bannon and Stephen Miller approving everyone connected with law enforcement and immigration.

    I know this is a joke.

    Sammy Finkelman (c2c77e)

  265. @266

    Yeah, all those criminal charges are just made up. Right.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 12/11/2023 @ 9:12 am

    …and you continually misses the point.

    whembly (5f7596)

  266. Meanwhile, the LA Times soft-pedals the antisemitic march down Wilshire Friday night.

    “Mostly peaceful”

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  267. I expect any Biden-Trump general election to become nasty and probably violent.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  268. How is Jack Smith “the administration”?

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  269. Des Moines Register/NBC News/Mediacom Iowa Poll 12/11/23:

    ……….
    A new Des Moines Register/NBC News/Mediacom Iowa Poll shows 51% of likely Republican caucusgoers pick Trump as their first choice for president, up from 43% in an October Iowa Poll.

    DeSantis, who was tied with Haley at 16% in October, has gained 3 percentage points to pull away from her in second place with 19%.

    Haley had seen a burst of momentum in Iowa between August and October, growing her share of support from 6% to 16% following well-received debate performances. …….
    But those efforts have not resulted in a bump in the latest Iowa Poll, and she remains flat at 16% — even as other candidates have dropped out.

    “The field may have shrunk, but it may have made Donald Trump even stronger than he was,” said pollster J. Ann Selzer, president of Selzer & Co., which conducted the Iowa Poll. “I would call his lead commanding at this point. There’s not much benefit of fewer candidates for either Ron DeSantis or Nikki Haley.”
    ………
    According to the poll, 73% say they believe Trump can win against Biden, regardless of his legal challenges. That’s up from 65% in October.
    ……..
    Trump has grown his lead over his next-closest competitor from 27 percentage points in October to 32 points now. His lead is the largest in the Iowa Poll’s history at this point in the race for a competitive GOP contest.

    The former president leads with every demographic group tested in the Iowa Poll.
    ……….
    Trump does best among those without a college degree (61%), those with an income of less than $50,000 (61%), men 65 and older (66%) and white men without a college degree (66%).

    Among evangelicals, Trump leads with 51% (up from 44% in October). …….
    ……….
    Even among his weakest demographic groups, Trump still leads his competitors.

    That includes independents — 36% of whom say Trump is their top choice for president. Another 23% pick Haley, 17% are for DeSantis, 8% are with Christie and 7% pick Ramaswamy.
    ………
    ………Trump is viewed favorably by 72%, after getting 66% in October. And he is viewed unfavorably by 28%, compared with 32% in October. Just 1% are not sure.
    ………
    Among those who name Trump as their first choice for president, 70% say their minds are made up, while 30% could be persuaded to support someone else.
    ……….
    Among Trump voters, it’s 45% (who are enthusiastic about their first choice)— about on par with the 47% who said the same in October.
    ………
    For Haley, 21% of her supporters are extremely enthusiastic, compared with 19% in October. …….

    Selzer said the poll represents, for Haley, a “what could be termed a failure to launch” after showing momentum going into the October poll. That lack of enthusiasm could be a possible cause, she noted.
    ………..

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  270. whembly —

    Do you think anyone should be prosecuted for 1/6? Do you think Trump — who wanted what happened — be prosecuted for 1/6?

    The existential problem for any candidate in the GOP is that they can’t seem to answer these questions in a way that makes sense to us Independents or, indeed, gives anyone in the primary to vote for them and not Trump.

    I saw an interesting Ex-Twitter thread from a DeSantis supporter which essentially argued that, no matter what Trump supporters want, Trump will be tried in March and convicted by a biased (his opinion) DC jury. Do Trump’s people have a plan for that? What do they do when states use that conviction to keep Trump off the ballot?

    Appalled (6f108c)

  271. Appalled (6f108c) — 12/11/2023 @ 10:41 am`

    Trump will be tried in March

    It probably won’t start s soon and will last for month

    and convicted by a biased (his opinion) DC jury.

    He may not be convicted, and any conviction will rest on questions of law, not fact.

    Do Trump’s people have a plan for that?

    Just say the jury was biased, or that the instructions given to the jury were wrong – all he has to say is cite the same grounds he will use for appeals.

    And

    That this was a plot on the part of “crooked Joe Biden” who may be impeached by then by the House for good measure – on grounds of trying to protect his son from prosecution if nothing else.

    This goes directly to the question of political control of the Department of Justice prosecutions, which Trump will be charging.

    What do they do when states use that conviction to keep Trump off the ballot?

    They won’t.

    To do that, a state would have to pass a special law keeping Donald Trump off the November ballot. It is back letter law that a state can do that.

    Of course this will happen only in states that Trump is not likely to carry (but he’ll claim that he could carry them) and he will charge that Democrats are trying to rig the election, and maybe gain votes in places like Nevada and Minnesota and Iowa.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  272. asset (79dae8) — 12/8/2023 @ 10:47 pm

    Hostages die in botched IDF rescue attempt. Netanyahu wont tell hostage families what happened to their love ones in botched attempt

    Isn’t it too soon?

    There’s a report by Jake Novak from his contacts in Israel that an I elite unit has been put on alert – training – which makes sense because the period of time when they are closing in on hostage takers is the most dangerous for any hostages there.

    What could help is if:

    1) The people holding the prisoners are not the same ones who held them all the time or at least not the same ones who kidnapped them – so they will have not much bad to testify against them

    2) If they are given a realistic opportunity to surrender

    3) And told that the later in their captivity anything bad happens to any hostage, the more priority will be given to punishing the perpetrator.

    4) If they realize that so long as they guarding any prisoner they won’t have to fight, although they will have a problem in trying to be in a safe place.

    5) And they could even get the death penalty.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  273. Rip Murdock (9a3b4c) — 12/9/2023 @ 6:43 pm

    Israel has released thousands of terrorists in exchange for a few dozen hostages over the years. This last go round was no different.

    What!!?

    It was a Black Friday sale, which lasted seven days.

    Only 3 prisoners for every Israeli, and not very important prisoners at that.

    Hamas probably didn’t even care about the prisoners they got freed, or about the supplies they got into Gaza, but wanted the ceasefire so they could escape to other positions. An important provision was no Israeli drones over northern Gaza for certain periods.

    Now Hamas wants to go back to the regular price, but it will have to be a going-out-of-business sale in which the captors will just get their own lives.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  274. This, all of this:
    https://www.nationalreview.com/2023/12/the-ongoing-campaign-of-anti-trump-subterfuge/

    Almost all these charges are unworthy, dubious, or imprudent,

    whembly (5f7596) — 12/11/2023 @ 8:46 am

    I’ve lost respect for Rich Lowry. It’s a shame he was chosen to become the editor-in-chief of National Review. National Review had it right back in 2015/2016 with its issue titled “Against Trump”. After that, I gather the magazine started hemorrhaging subscribers who had joined the cult of Trump.

    I suspect that Lowry’s primary concern is to have as many subscribers as possible, and since Trumper Republicans outnumber Never Trumper Republicans, he’s going to sing the tune of those who will pay the most money.

    I further postulate that this is one of the reasons Jonah Goldberg and David French left National Review to start The Dispatch.

    Yes, I know there are still some writers at NR who are critical of Trump, but for the editor to say these things is disappointing.

    norcal (cc7077)

  275. Sammy —

    Watch Michigan, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania should Trump be convicted of 1/6 charges. This is when the 14th Amendment provision becomes a live issue.

    Appalled (fd95b5)

  276. Also, it’s going to take the Supreme Court to delay the March Trump trial through a failure to act on a significant issue. You honestly think they will waste time dodging the question?

    Appalled (fd95b5)

  277. Kevin M (ed969f) — 12/8/2023 @ 6:33 pm

    How about a big hug from Maduro to the Democrats for allowing his continued invasion of Texas.

    Maduro was threatening to invade Guyana (he even got a referendum passed endorsing his claim to half of Guyana

    https://www.riotimesonline.com/maduros-referendum-rejects-international-mediation-with-guyana

    I thought the border was settled by President Grover Cleveland in 1895.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezuelan_crisis_of_1895

    Well, starting in 1895.

    But it seems Maduro has pulled back.

    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/latino/guyana-agrees-talks-venezuela-territorial-dispute-pressure-brazil-othe-rcna129004

    These migrants don’t hurt the United States — they hurt Venezuela, or
    would if Venezuela was run differently. The USA is shooting itself in the foot the way it treats migrants.

    Now Maduro even got some sanctions lifted in return for agreeing to accept some migrants back.

    https://www.foxnews.com/politics/biden-admin-makes-exceptions-to-sanctions-on-venezuelan-airline-to-allow-deportation-flights

    Biden admin makes exceptions to sanctions on Venezuelan airline to allow deportation flights

    Flights started in October as administration dealt with surge in encounters

    ….The Treasury Department’s Office of Foreign Assets Control has authorized transactions for Conviasa, a Venezuelan national airline, to allow otherwise-sanctioned transactions, including repairs, for aircraft belonging to the state airline for deportation flights.

    The airline was sanctioned by the Trump administration, with officials saying the Maduro regime uses the airline “to shuttle corrupt regime officials around the world to fuel support for its anti-democratic efforts.” The sanctions include anyone who interacts with the airline.

    The move by the Treasury Department does not lift those sanctions, and the airline remains sanctioned, but the authorization does allow a limited exception for “all transactions ordinarily incident and necessary to the repatriation of Venezuelan nationals from non-U.S. jurisdictions in the Western Hemisphere to Venezuela,” per the Office of Foreign Assets Control. The move was first reported by the Miami Herald.

    It’s part of a more aggressive push by the administration to curb illegal migration from Venezuela, which has been one of the top sources of migrants in recent years. The Department of Homeland Security announced in October that it was starting deportation flights directly to Venezuela as the U.S. deals with a surge in encounters of Venezuelan migrants at the southern border.

    Biden has no principles. It’s just politics to him, but he’s guilty of what Bob Dole called malpractice of politics.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  278. 270. Appalled (fd95b5) — 12/11/2023 @ 12:01 pm

    Also, it’s going to take the Supreme Court to delay the March Trump trial through a failure to act on a significant issue. You honestly think they will waste time dodging the question?

    No, but trials can be delayed over other questions. Trump is just making his motions one at a time.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  279. You honestly think they will waste time dodging the question?

    Appalled (fd95b5) — 12/11/2023 @ 12:01 pm

    My bet is that Supreme Court will dodge 14th Amendment/ Section 3 questions by ruling it is a “political question” to be decided by Congress.

    Rip Murdock (2c0dee)

  280. Whew, I had to check twice that Rich Lowry actually wrote that piece. Once he says “Russia collusion hoax”, I know who he’s writing for and it’s not for non-hyper-partisans. It’s sad.

    Appalled, I agree. Trump should have been impeached and removed for J6. The senators who failed to do their duty are responsible for the impending tsunami of that trial and any violence and chaos it creates. Trump supporters and hyper-partisans cannot look out that far. They soooo want the drama of more Trump that they no longer think about the danger to our institutions or even winning. It’s like a dog chasing a bone off a cliff: Get That Bone!!

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  281. Los Angeles continues to struggle with homelessness, despite all the money they spend to help. And the one thing that no one can mention is the stress that unfettered immigration has on the infrastructure.

    It’s just all a mystery.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  282. My bet is that Supreme Court will dodge 14th Amendment/ Section 3 questions by ruling it is a “political question” to be decided by Congress.

    It won’t be made any less toxic by waiting until after Trump wins the election.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  283. Appalled (fd95b5) — 12/11/2023 @ 11:58 am

    Watch Michigan, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania should Trump be convicted of 1/6 charges. This is when the 14th Amendment provision becomes a live issue.

    The 14th amendment is just lawfare, but a state has the right to choose its electors any which way it wants.

    I don’t think any state disqualifies any person from being listed, except some (I heard this might true of Colorado) may disqualify electors from being pledged to someone constitutionally ineligible for the office of president (e.g. Barack Obama)

    If anyone wants to knock Trump off the ballot, they’re going to have to pass a state law doing that before November 5,2024. And they can do that knocking him off by name unless they want to make it more general in order to avoid setting a political precedent.

    A state could also specifically add a slate of Electors, or authorize any group to add a slate without bothering with signatures and the like..,.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  284. Almost all these charges are unworthy, dubious, or imprudent,

    The New York ones are, and as I said when they were announced, they are being used as cover for the serious ones that came later.

    In order of likelihood of conviction:

    1. The FL documents case. Trump’s best chance here is that the judge dismisses or delays.

    2. The GA election racketeering case. I guess it’s possible that Trump can escape the convictions of most of the others, but the DA is getting more than a few people to flip.

    3. The DC J6 case. Smith is playing this close to the vest, so it’s hard to gauge Trump’s peril, but the recent filing where he asserted more involvement by Trump makes this a bit better bet.

    4. The NY civil fraud case. The judge is going to lose a lot of appeals here since many of his rulings on “fact” have been counter-factual (e.g. the worth of properties).

    5. The NY hush-money case. Trump will be convicted of a couple of misdemeanors at best.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  285. 283. AJ_Liberty (5f05c3) — 12/11/2023 @ 12:13 pm

    Trump should have been impeached and removed for J6.

    The Democrats insisted on charging Trump with things he didn’t do. He didn’t incite that crowd with his speech at the Ellipse.(apparently only Dick Cheney, maybe, was worried)

    Better would have been simply for his persistent efforts to change the election results. You could argue about whether that went so far as to merit impeachment and removal, but at least the factual basis would be true.

    Mitch McConnell probably thought Trump was finished anyway. He was not.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  286. Giuliani is going on trial today for damages related to defamation (which he already conceded) of 2 Georgia election workers in Fulton County.

    They were the only people actually accused of having participated in the alleged vote stealing plot.

    Otherwise, it’s an alleged plot with no actors.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  287. What I hope to see is, should Trump become the presumptive nominee then be convicted of felonies, that there is an alternate GOP Convention then battles to get the alternate nominee on state ballots along side of, or in place of, Donald Trump.

    14th Amendment, the NJ election rule, 3rd party access to ballots, whatever.

    Would that be a sh1tshow? You betcha. But I can tell the sh1t from the Shinola, and the GOP needs to separate from the MAGA Party, even if we lose this one.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  288. 67. lurker (cd7cd4) — 12/9/2023 @ 12:32 am

    Our host weighs in.

    I could not see what it said on several computers.I just saw a big X.

    Finally, I got this here:

    Patterico
    @Patterico

    Yet another reason today’s GOP is repulsive.
    Quote
    Jennifer Griffin
    @JenGriffinFNC
    ·
    Dec 8
    Update: Russia fires cruise missiles at Kyiv for first time in nearly three months as Putin allies on Russian State TV praise Congress for not passing Ukraine aid.
    11:48 PM · Dec 8, 2023
    ·
    1,687 Views

    By the way, I now see an X at the top of every post. It seems to be a link to Twitter

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  289. Giuliani is going on trial today for damages

    What a fool.

    Giuliani originally faced a July 25 deadline to reimburse the mother and daughter, and as a sanction for failing to repay them by that date, Howell said the jury may be instructed to “infer that [Giuliani] is intentionally trying to hide relevant discovery about his financial assets for the purpose of artificially deflating his net worth” when determining the amount to award Freeman and Moss.

    I wonder if he’s defending himself. He is expected to take the witness stand.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  290. #282

    Rip,

    My bet is that Supreme Court will dodge 14th Amendment/ Section 3 questions by ruling it is a “political question” to be decided by Congress.

    The 14th Amendment question is not ripe — as they say. I don’t think any of the states are going to be comfortable keping Trump off the ballot without a conviction.

    I think folks are wrong when they assert the March Jack Smith trial will be delayed. Sure, Trump wants that to happen. But the Supremes are in the Rule of Law business. They depend on the President faithfully executing the laws of the US. Why cut a break to the guy who puts that at risk?

    Sammy #288,

    The fake elector scheme would have had to have been the basis of impeachment over the election results, and that didn’t seem to be fully understood yet. The GOP Senators who voted against impeachment did not, at any rate, cast a vote based on fine distinctions of the sort you draw. They were either courting the MAGAs or just honestly afraid of them.

    Appalled (6f108c)

  291. Kevin M (ed969f) — 12/11/2023 @ 12:38 pm

    What I hope to see is, should Trump become the presumptive nominee then be convicted of felonies, that there is an alternate GOP Convention

    Who would be the delegates?

    It won’t be a walkout since almost all the delegates would be Trump delegates.

    It could be that some state parties could vote not to put Donald Trump’s name on the ballot in their state.

    If they wanted to co-ordinate, I’d expect a lot of private phone calls and Zoom meetings.

    then battles to get the alternate nominee on state ballots along side of, or in place of, Donald Trump.

    No, no no. The local Republican party just secedes from the national party. Won’t happen anywhere except possibly Alaska and Utah.

    Otherwise, it’s just anybody.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  292. Appalled (6f108c) — 12/11/2023 @ 12:44 pm

    The GOP Senators who voted against impeachment did not, at any rate, cast a vote based on fine distinctions of the sort you draw. They were either courting the MAGAs or just honestly afraid of them.

    Yes, you’re right. It was political for most of them. They never quite got to the merits.

    But something true might have had a chance combined with an argument that Trump’s political career wasn’t over.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  293. On Asimov and Heinlein:

    The influence of Asimov continues, with three new “Foundation” stories, by Bear, Benford, and Brin. (I picked up one of them, but haven’t read enough of it it to decide whether I like it, and whether it fits well with the originals.)

    Asimov also — among many other things — produced two joke collections. The first is better than the second, but the second ends with a goodbye to readers, as he knew he would not live much longer.

    I think this joke was in the first: A young Jewish man goes to apply for a job as an announcer at a radio station. When he comes back, his family asks him: “Did you get the job?”
    “No”.
    “Why not?”
    “Because they’re p-p-p-p-prejudiced”, he stutters.

    (Now here’s the odd thing: Many years ago, when I was teaching — badly — at a slum school in Chicago, I heard that joke — except it was told me by a black fellow teacher, and the young man was black.

    Not being Jewish or black, I wouldn’t tell either version of the joke — without first explaining where I got it.)

    Heinlein’s “The Man Who Sold the Moon” inspired both Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk, which is pretty good for a single story. (I love it, but it didn’t make me want to become a billionaire so I could go to the moon,)

    I’m probably in a minority in this, but in general I like Heinlein’s earlier stories better than his later ones, and think his “juveniles”, like “Farmer in the Sky” and “Have Spacesuit–Will Travel”, are good reading for adults, too. (The first tries to get the science right; the second is more playful.)

    Recently, I came up with this comparison of the two: When I read Asimov, I often come to bumps, where I wish he had done a little re-writing to smooth out the prose. With Heinlein, I also come to bumps, but for the opposite reason: The dialog of many of his characters is too slick, too smart. (Arthur C. Clarke usually hits the happy medium, for me, anyway.)

    Jim Miller (a8dbed)

  294. The fake elector scheme would have had to have been the basis of impeachment over the election results, and that didn’t seem to be fully understood yet.

    It was understood in Congress, where they had to vote on it.

    Not just fake electors- disqualifying electors.

    One way Trump had to win (which did not involve Mike Pence doing anything) was for both Houses of Congress to reject the Electoral votes of Arizona, Georgia, Michigan, Nevada Pennsylvania and Wisconsin -just enough to reduce Biden’s totals below Trump’s and then rule vote that a majority of the votes cast, not of potential votes was enough to win and declare Trump the winner 232-227.Wasn’t going to happen.

    Mike Pence agreeing todo what Donald Trump wanted would have reversed the default (count them) but Trump still would have lost.

    Not by enough to et impeached for trying it, though. The Jan 6 storming of the Capitol could act as a motivator maybe to get him out of politics. He created the crucial vote.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  295. Preventing people from voting for Trump by taking him off the ballot through a novel and strained interpretation of the 14th amendment is authoritarian and nakedly undemocratic. This is not about residency rules, age, a missed deadline or some objective criteria. It’s not about the law. He is not charged with insurrection. He would be taken off because those in power want him off, and there are those who would cheerlead it without reservation. You are worse and more dangerous than the people you profess to be against.

    lloyd (0bba9f)

  296. @260 the other states will vote as they did in 2016/2020 so special appeal is irrelevant.

    asset (ae9960)

  297. @289. “Otherwise, it’s an alleged plot with no actors”

    Dec 6:

    “A Nevada grand jury on Wednesday indicted six Republicans who submitted certificates to Congress falsely declaring Donald Trump the winner of the 2020 presidential election in their state, making Nevada the third to seek charges against so-called “fake electors.”

    JRH (14e837)

  298. Doesn’t look like anyone has brought this up yet: the National Retail Federation admitted to fabricating information stating that the majority of retail theft/shrink was due to organized retail crime.

    https://twitter.com/JuddLegum/status/1734206569888268697

    Sam G (8d2ed1)

  299. #298

    If Trump is convicted of a felony (or felonies) related to January 6, that will also be a novel and unique situation. We live in a society where, in many states, a convicted felon does not have the right to vote. That includes Trump’s home state of Florida. So, it’s less of a stretch to exclude him than it might appear at first blush..\

    Unless he is convicted, I don’t think it’s appropriate to remove him from the ballot. That would be novel and strained, and I hope Colorado doesn’t do it.

    Appalled (03f53c)

  300. People don’t get convicted of felonies for the sole purpose of taking away their vote.

    lloyd (1b6a3f)

  301. @273

    whembly —

    Do you think anyone should be prosecuted for 1/6?

    Anyone who assaulted the police should definitely be prosecuted.

    Anyone else who wasn’t violent, but got charged were overcharged imo.

    Do you think Trump — who wanted what happened — be prosecuted for 1/6?

    Criminally charged? No.

    Impeached on J7 for dereliction of his duty as POTUS? Absolutely. As his actions were politically objectionable, rather than criminal.

    The existential problem for any candidate in the GOP is that they can’t seem to answer these questions in a way that makes sense to us Independents or, indeed, gives anyone in the primary to vote for them and not Trump.

    That’s just it, AJ, I reject this framing.

    It’s NOT an existential problem.

    Trump isn’t really the disease.

    He’s “a” symptom of the disease.

    I’ll distill this down to something non-Trump voters can understand:
    It’s not that Trump himself is this super amazing person/politican that most of his voters are voting for him. Sure, there’s a small minority of his voters who thinks he walks on water, but again, those voters are the minority.

    Trump gets most of his support because he’s not “them”. Them could be:
    -establishment GOP (ie, Paul Ryan, Mitch McConnell, John McCain, Mitt Romney, Bushes, etc…)
    -Big Business GOP (Chamber of Commerce)
    -Not any Democrats, for any reasons

    Basically, Trump was the “choose your own destructor” candidate that represent that most of the GOP voters simply don’t like old, status-quo GOP party.

    Its unfortunate that the “old, status-quo GOP party” (which I’ll throw in the #NeverTrumpers) has refuse to acknowledge this in any meaningful way.

    I saw an interesting Ex-Twitter thread from a DeSantis supporter which essentially argued that, no matter what Trump supporters want, Trump will be tried in March and convicted by a biased (his opinion) DC jury. Do Trump’s people have a plan for that? What do they do when states use that conviction to keep Trump off the ballot?

    Appalled (6f108c) — 12/11/2023 @ 10:41 am

    I’m sure they have a plan. Not sure, if they’d be successfull.

    Hence why I’m a DeSantis honk. At least he doesn’t have that baggage.

    whembly (5f7596)

  302. @277

    This, all of this:
    https://www.nationalreview.com/2023/12/the-ongoing-campaign-of-anti-trump-subterfuge/

    Almost all these charges are unworthy, dubious, or imprudent,

    whembly (5f7596) — 12/11/2023 @ 8:46 am

    I’ve lost respect for Rich Lowry. It’s a shame he was chosen to become the editor-in-chief of National Review. National Review had it right back in 2015/2016 with its issue titled “Against Trump”. After that, I gather the magazine started hemorrhaging subscribers who had joined the cult of Trump.

    I suspect that Lowry’s primary concern is to have as many subscribers as possible, and since Trumper Republicans outnumber Never Trumper Republicans, he’s going to sing the tune of those who will pay the most money.

    I further postulate that this is one of the reasons Jonah Goldberg and David French left National Review to start The Dispatch.

    Yes, I know there are still some writers at NR who are critical of Trump, but for the editor to say these things is disappointing.

    norcal (cc7077) — 12/11/2023 @ 11:51 am

    Lowry is not even defending Trump.

    You can still criticize many transgressions that Trump has committed, while at the same to admonish his critics for abusing their positions in their zeal to “get Trump”.

    He’s seeing the “big picture” that I’ve been harping on.

    Take Trump out of the equation for a bit.

    Do you think things will go back to “normal” like the things were prior to Trump being POTUS?

    Whether or not you think Trump deserves whatever happens to him, you’d have to be worry about the precedent that is being set by these Democrat officials.

    Right now, they’ve done the “tat”.

    Will the next GOP POTUS bring the “tit”?

    whembly (5f7596)

  303. Kevin M (ed969f) — 12/11/2023 @ 9:44 am

    I expect any Biden-Trump general election to become nasty and probably violent.

    It could become violent maybe after the election, but before? That could affect votes.

    Sammy Finkelman (c2c77e)

  304. Whembly you are being perfectly rational and logical. Many on here write what they do to manipulate and incite others. They aren’t interested in any Republicans winning.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  305. https://www.breitbart.com/middle-east/2023/12/11/iran-rejects-two-state-solution-demands-end-of-israel/

    Iranian Foreign Minister Hossein Amirabdollahian said on Monday that Iran and Israel have only one thing in common: neither believes in a “two-state solution” for the Palestinians.

    Other Iranian officials jumped in to clarify that Tehran believes all of Israel should be given to the Palestinians, annihilating the Jewish state.

    Amirabdollahian told a forum in Doha devoted to the Israel-Hamas war that a state of “Palestine” should be created via referendum, with “only descendants of those who lived there prior to 1948 being permitted to vote.”

    The Iranian foreign minister was not referring to the descendants of Jews who have lived in the area since ancient times — he meant holding a “referendum” in which only the Palestinians would be allowed to vote. Iranian state media portray this proposal as a “peaceful” resolution to the Palestinian problem, but in practice, it would amount to the Palestinians voting to dissolve the state of Israel.

    Amirabdollahian underscored this point by sarcastically observing that neither Iran nor Israel truly believes in a “two-state solution.”

    “Israel is occupying the Palestinian land, and we believe that a two-state solution will not help to resolve the Palestinian issue,” he said.

    Biden and Obama’s “friend” Iran.

    Keep supporting leftists.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  306. Netanyahu allowed 360 million dollars a year in cash to flow from qatar to hamas (after giving bibi his cut) Netanyahu had to give permission for cash payments. Other governments would only allow food aid and medical supplys NO cash.

    asset (57e0ba)

  307. Biden campaign says polls showing him doing badly is because most voters think biden is a corrupt senile old fool and don’t want him to run! They say these voters wont vote for trump. How about like me voting for jill stein like I did in 2016 costing clinton presidency.

    asset (57e0ba)

  308. Trump Indictments Watch:

    Special counsel Jack Smith on Monday filed a petition with the U.S. Supreme Court seeking a writ of certiorari before judgment, asking the justices to leapfrog the U.S. Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit and decide “as expeditiously as possible” whether former President Donald Trump actually does have “absolute immunity” from prosecution.
    ………
    “It is of imperative public importance that respondent’s claims of immunity be resolved by this Court and that respondent’s trial proceed as promptly as possible if his claim of immunity is rejected. Respondent’s claims are profoundly mistaken, as the district court held. But only this Court can definitively resolve them. The Court should grant a writ of certiorari before judgment to ensure that it can provide the expeditious resolution that this case warrants, just as it did in United States v. Nixon,” Smith wrote.
    ………
    “It is of paramount public importance that respondent’s claims of immunity be resolved as expeditiously as possible — and, if respondent is not immune, that he receive a fair and speedy trial on these charges. The public, respondent, and the government are entitled to nothing less,” Smith wrote. “Yet if this case proceeds through the ordinary — and even a highly expedited — appellate process, it is unclear whether this Court would be able to hear and resolve the threshold immunity issues during its current Term. For that reason, the government seeks a writ of certiorari before judgment to afford this Court an opportunity to grant review now and ensure that it can timely resolve the important immunity question presented here.”
    ………
    ………Smith noted that the Special Counsel’s Office “is concurrently filing a motion to expedite proceedings in the D.C. Circuit.”

    “As that motion explains, the government is seeking prompt resolution of the appeal in time to allow this Court to hear and decide the case this Term in the event the Court opts not to grant the petition for a writ of certiorari before judgment,” the special counsel said. “If the Court grants review, the government respectfully requests that it establish a schedule for briefing and argument that would allow the case to be resolved as promptly as possible. Alternatively, if the Court opts not to grant review immediately, the government respectfully suggests that it consider postponing action on the petition pending further proceedings in the court of appeals, so the Court could grant certiorari immediately upon the issuance of a decision by that court.”

    Later in the afternoon on Monday, the Supreme Court granted Smith’s concurrent petition to expedite their decision on the writ and ordered Trump to submit arguments by 4 p.m. on Dec. 20.
    #########

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  309. Between 1991 and 2022 the Supreme Court granted 22 “writs of certiorari before judgment” with 7 grants in 2022 alone.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  310. Wishful Thinking:

    Wall Street’s top GOP donors are slowly realizing that former President Donald Trump is all-but-certain to clinch the presidential nomination. While billionaires and their strategists continue to throw Hail Marys, they’re also thinking about when to throw in the towel.

    “The street still hopes for somebody else,” Thomas Peterffy, the GOP megadonor and founder of Interactive Brokers, told POLITICO from the sidelines of the Goldman Sachs U.S. Financial Services Conference last week.

    ………If Haley, Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis or another Republican fails to overtake Trump, Peterffy said, he still hopes for a brokered GOP convention — which hasn’t happened since Thomas Dewey was on the ballot in 1948 — or a viable, as-yet unannounced No Labels candidate.
    ……….
    Peterffy’s comments reflect the collective angst of Wall Street Republicans whose views on Trump are completely divorced from those of the GOP base, according to conversations with more than a dozen bankers, attorneys, political consultants and asset managers. There was a period when it seemed as though Trump might fade; allowing a younger, calmer alternative to take his place. Instead, the opposite happened.

    A series of criminal indictments have had no effect on his popularity. Some believe it crystallized his support. Now, unless Haley or DeSantis pull off the impossible — or if there’s a deus ex machina event that upends the political world — high-dollar GOP donors will soon face an uncomfortable decision as to how to proceed.
    ……….
    Clearly, there’s an appetite for a Republican with Trump’s zeal for light-touch regulation without the accompanying baggage. That’s why donors pumped tens of millions of dollars into DeSantis’s Florida campaign when he was widely viewed as Trump’s most viable challenger. Now, many are pinning their hopes on Haley — a former South Carolina governor whose poise on the debate stage won the praise of power brokers like JPMorgan Chase CEO Jamie Dimon and Bridgewater Associates founder Ray Dalio.
    ……….
    (Haley will) have to outperform DeSantis in the Iowa caucus and run a strong enough campaign in New Hampshire to pierce the notion of Trump’s inevitable victory, Eric Levine, a New York attorney and Haley fundraiser, told POLITICO.
    ………
    Levine’s confidence in Haley’s path is not universally held. ……..
    ……….

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  311. Monmouth University National Poll 12/11/23:

    ………..
    In a Biden-Trump rematch scenario, just over 4 in 10 registered voters say they will either definitely (31%) or probably (11%) vote for the Democratic incumbent and, in a separate question, the same number will definitely (29%) or probably (13%) support the former Republican president. Trump is doing a little better at holding onto his 2020 voters than Biden. Based on poll respondents’ self-reported vote in the last election, 91% of 2020 Trump supporters say they will vote for him again compared with 85% of 2020 Biden voters who say the same about him.

    About one-quarter of the electorate expresses any level of enthusiasm for the possibility of a replay of the 2020 contest. …….
    ………
    About half the electorate will definitely not vote for Biden (49%) and a nearly identical number will definitely not vote for Trump (48%). ……

    One in five voters indicate some likelihood of casting a vote for Kennedy in a presidential contest that features Biden and Trump. This includes 6% who say they definitely will vote for Kennedy and 15% who probably will. If all these voters followed through on what they are now telling pollsters, their support for Kennedy would cost each major party nominee 14% of their current base. However, focusing just on those who will definitely vote for Kennedy, Biden loses just 4% of his current support and Trump loses only 3%. …….
    ………
    Currently, 24% of American voters have a favorable opinion of Kennedy while 34% hold an unfavorable view. Despite his family pedigree, Democrats (55% unfavorable) are much more likely than Republicans (17% unfavorable) to have a negative opinion of Kennedy. While other voters have no opinion of the activist and lawyer, only 13% say they have never heard of Kennedy.
    ……….

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  312. “I don’t think it’s appropriate to remove him from the ballot….I hope Colorado doesn’t do it.”

    Colorado would never vote for Trump…so it’s not exactly relevant. If it was Arizona, Georgia, or Michigan….maybe it matters. I’ve not bought the legal argument…and I doubt the Supremes will either. It’s too much power for a secretary of state and the due process is at best fuzzy.

    AJ_Liberty (1fc244)

  313. I realize many people here think Trump is a Putin toady, but Biden managed this war to give Russia and Putin what they’ve always wanted. The Donbas plus a buffer, the left bank of the Dnipro all the way to the Sea of Azov, and Crimea which was stolen in 2014 is now secure. Granted, Russia also wanted to topple Zelensky and install a puppet, and that did not happen, but Biden either bungled the war material management or he BF’d the Ukrainians, maybe, probably, both. We will still need to arm the Ukrainians, but they won’t be able to retake territory (will be lucky to defend what is left for the next 10 years). The rebuilding money will get wasted and the Chinese now know that they’ll have Taiwan within 10 years whenever they want it.
    Venezuela is thinking it can take Guyana’s oil, the Houthi’s think they can close the Red Sea, Iranian proxies can lose to Israel and Iran is still empowered because they all know we just want to manage, not win.

    steveg (20d689)

  314. @316 china can take taiwan when ever it wants. Putin thought that too. We are slowly re-arming taiwan with weapons we normally refuse to give them. Remember when hitler tried to invade england in 1940? Our navy and airforce is designed to deal with problems like this not fight hamas or houthis. Go on the internet and google taiwan invasion.

    asset (57e0ba)

  315. Anyone want to defend netanyahu giving cash in bags to hamas. Neftali bennett said we would only give gaza humanitarian aid like food and medical supplies NO cash for bibi to skim.

    asset (57e0ba)

  316. Families of several held hostages including americans asked to attend White House lighting of Menorah ;but were refused invitations. CNN Must be worried about the muslim vote in Detroit with biden’s low poll numbers.

    asset (57e0ba)

  317. @312

    Between 1991 and 2022 the Supreme Court granted 22 “writs of certiorari before judgment” with 7 grants in 2022 alone.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 12/11/2023 @ 5:51 pm

    insert

    whembly (f79c62)

  318. That should’ve been “So there’s a chance?!?” from Dumb & Dumber.

    whembly (f79c62)

  319. I’m probably in a minority in this, but in general I like Heinlein’s earlier stories better than his later ones, and think his “juveniles”, like “Farmer in the Sky” and “Have Spacesuit–Will Travel”, are good reading for adults, too. (The first tries to get the science right; the second is more playful.)

    Double Star, Citizen of the Galaxy, Tunnel in the Sky all still work. His stuff from the 50’s is pretty much all good. His later work is hit and miss, although The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, Friday and Time Enough for Love stand out. I’d add Stranger to that, but the only readable version of that is now long out of print, which is odd for a Hugo-winning book.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  320. Wordle in 2 for the second time this week.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  321. Colorado would never vote for Trump…so it’s not exactly relevant.

    In the primary it would be, and I think that’s what the current case was about.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  322. Whom will Woulda Coulda Donnie blame for his 2024 loss, I wonder. I don’t see him retiring the con.

    nk (bb1548)

  323. 145. Kevin M (ed969f) — 12/9/2023 @ 4:08 pm

    But this money was for increasing the speed of admission of the “refugees” not for reducing their numbers, or anything of interest to those who want the travesty mitigated.

    Increasing the speed of processing would presumably reduce the number admitted. What Republicans want is something like denying all claims to asylum fr one year.

    Sammy Finkelman (c2c77e)

  324. DeSantis finally graduates from Ken Doll gonies to something bigger by directly criticizing Trump.

    Trump denigrates military service by claiming it is “braver” that he debated Hillary Clinton than what soldiers endure on the battlefield.

    Debating isn’t “brave”; it’s the bare minimum any candidate should do. Hiding from debates, on the other hand, is an example of cowardice.

    Trump lies all the time, but it’s a dead cert when he puts “sir” in a sentence. I’m only surprised that Trump didn’t say the general had tears in his eyes when saying “sir”.

    But it’s all too little, too late. My party is going to nominate a soon-to-be convicted felon as Standard Bearer. I usually agree with Catoggio and his latest is no exception: “Barring an act of God or Tanya Chutkan, the Republican presidential primary is effectively over.” I’d love to be proven wrong.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  325. Come with me and you’ll be
    In a world of pure imagination
    Take a look and you’ll see
    Into your imagination

    We’ll begin with a spin
    Traveling in the world of my creation
    What we’ll see will defy
    Explanation

    That might even explain all of Trump’s small donors. It’s the money they no longer need for psychedelics.

    On the flip side, he is as likely to be a dictator meting out retribution as he was in balancing the budget, replacing Obamacare, and building the Wall. His threats are as much a snake oil samesman’a spiel as his promises.

    nk (dc6849)

  326. A little more from Catoggio.

    Committed anti-Trumpers do have a habit of falsely catastrophizing about him, and it’s certainly true that he’s not an ideologue in classic dictatorial form.

    But so what?

    His first term did in fact end in catastrophe, and not just any catastrophe but one that confirmed the core Never Trump insight into his character. We warned that he would cross the Rubicon if given power, and he did. No, he’s not a Russian spy. And there’s no “pee tape.” But if you feared that his twisted narcissism and admiration for foreign strongmen would lead him to subvert democracy once it threatened his own prestige, come collect your winnings.

    Character is destiny. When his critics warn about “dictatorship” in his second term, they’re warning that he won’t be able to resist crossing the Rubicon again. How that’ll look exactly, we can only wonder—defying court orders? sending the military to confront American citizens?—but that he’ll do it isn’t in doubt. Because he already has.

    Character is destiny.

    And personnel is policy, we know what personnel he’ll hire, and it’s why he should never step foot in the White House ever again, and it’s why I remain confounded and frustrated that my party will nevertheless give him that shot.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  327. Increasing the speed of processing would presumably reduce the number admitted.

    NO, it could increase the speed of admitting. It might also increase the speed of adjudicating, but there is a long parole between those two events with no guarantee that the person admitted will show up for the second part.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  328. The Trump opponents are making the same mistake that was made in 2016: holding on past the point where opposition matters. If there is more than one opponent on the NH ballot, Trump is the nominee.

    And I will blame Chris Christie, again, for screwing it all up. Again. This is what, 3, for him? It would only be DeSantis’s first, but enough that I would be unable to support him in the future.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  329. The Trump opponents are making the same mistake that was made in 2016: holding on past the point where opposition matters.

    Case in point.

    If there is more than one opponent on the NH ballot, Trump is the nominee. And I will blame Chris Christie, again, for screwing it all up.

    The winner of the New Hampshire primary isn’t predictive of either the Republican or Democratic party’s presidential nominee:

    The winner in New Hampshire has not always gone on to win their party’s nomination, as demonstrated by Republicans Leonard Wood in 1920, Harold Stassen in 1948, Henry Cabot Lodge Jr. as a write-in candidate in 1964, Pat Buchanan in 1996, and John McCain in 2000, and Democrats Estes Kefauver in 1952 and 1956, Paul Tsongas in 1992, Hillary Clinton in 2008, and Bernie Sanders in 2016 and 2020.

    From 1952 to 1988, the person elected president had always carried the primary, but Bill Clinton broke the pattern in 1992, as did George W. Bush in 2000, Barack Obama in 2008, and Joe Biden in 2020. In 1992, Clinton lost to Paul Tsongas in New Hampshire; in 2000, George W. Bush lost to John McCain in New Hampshire; in 2008 Barack Obama lost to Hillary Clinton; and in 2020 Joe Biden lost to Bernie Sanders.

    Since Christie is only polling above 3% in NH, he will be hardly to blame if Trump wins other primary contests.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  330. https://mynorthwest.com/3942486/rantz-seattle-student-failed-quiz-for-saying-men-cant-get-pregnant/

    Yet another example of leftist utopia where a student fails a test for speaking the truth out loud. Public schools teaching that people other than men have male sex organs and that people other than women can get pregnant.

    This is what public schools are brainwashing our kids into believing. It’s their faith. Establishing their own religion.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  331. @329

    Character is destiny. When his critics warn about “dictatorship” in his second term, they’re warning that he won’t be able to resist crossing the Rubicon again. How that’ll look exactly, we can only wonder—defying court orders? sending the military to confront American citizens?—but that he’ll do it isn’t in doubt. Because he already has.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d) — 12/12/2023 @ 9:04 am

    “Because he already has” what?

    What did he do?

    whembly (5f7596)

  332. Since Christie is only polling above 3% in NH, he will be hardly to blame if Trump wins other primary contests.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 12/12/2023 @ 10:37 am

    According to the 538 NH polling averages:

    Trump 44%
    Haley 19%
    Christie 12
    DeSantis 8
    Ramaswamy 7

    If all of the non-Trump candidates dropped out (except for Haley) my prediction would be that Christie’s 12% would go to Haley; DeSantis’s 8% would be split between Trump and Haley; and Ramaswamy’s 7% would go to Trump. So:

    Trump 55%
    Haley 35

    Haley still comes up short; She needs to eat into Trump’s 44%. Even with DeSantis’s full 8% wouldn’t be enough. Christie has nothing to do with it.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  333. Defied court orders.
    Sending federal forces to confront American citizens.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  334. I question for you, Rob:

    If tomorrow in a freak accident your penis is lopped off, do you stop being a man?

    I think most people would agree you do not. The difference between sex and gender might be one you don’t understand (it’s tricky for most people), but it’s a concept worth learning about and this quiz wasn’t wrong. Not all men have penises.

    Nate (24e30b)

  335. Since Christie is only polling above 3% in NH, he will be hardly to blame if Trump wins other primary contests.

    By failing to give in and allow consolidation, he will be delaying the point where consolidation matters. Trump could have been stopped in 2016 if Rubio had not held out for his Hail Mary in Florida (he lost there anyway) and if Kasich’s ego had not had him going on through May.

    Even after Super Tuesday, Cruz had the upper hand in a two-way contest.

    ——–

    But sure, maybe it’s over, but a contest with Christie, Haley and DeSantis still running is utterly hopeless.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  336. Trump 55%
    Haley 35

    Still, it’s a contest going forward as a lot of energy would go into Haley’s challenge. Further, you fail to consider what portion of Trump’s support is from “winner” voters who might look at someone else who is an actual contender.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  337. Not all men have penises.

    But even a biological man without a penis cannot bear children. No matter how hard you try to twist it.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  338. Meanwhile, after the GOP was totally trashed for delaying Ukraine aid, President Biden makes noises about cutting off aid to Israel. Disavowing a long-time ally is bound to make Putin smile.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  339. Kevin M (ed969f) — 12/12/2023 @ 12:32 pm

    Meanwhile, after the GOP was totally trashed for delaying Ukraine aid, President Biden makes noises about cutting off aid to Israel. Disavowing a long-time ally is bound to make Putin smile.

    Biden has given Israel a deadline for finishing military operations in Gaza, which Israel thinks it can meet, partly because they’ve come up with new plans. I don’t know whether that deadline is based upon politics or upon appropriations.

    But there’s a danger from Hezbollah in Lebanon.

    Biden may just be trying to scare Congress, knowing that aid to Israel is more popular than aid to Ukraine.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  340. Character is destiny.

    And personnel is policy,

    Correct.

    But there’s no way to misuse the military.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  341. In the state of Washington, the teach is correct

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  342. @337

    Defied court orders.

    Oh, so more of the same federal bureaucracy tug of war with the judiciary, as just about every other Presidential administration.

    Sending federal forces to confront American citizens.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d) — 12/12/2023 @ 11:32 am

    During the summer of riot? Really?

    All of this is indicative that a hypothetical 2nd Trump administration means he’s going to be a “Dictator” because “he’s done it before”????

    You and Cottagio has simply lost the plot.

    Stop having the vapors, it’s not a good look.

    whembly (5f7596)

  343. Since Christie is only polling above 3% in NH, he will be hardly to blame if Trump wins other primary contests.

    By failing to give in and allow consolidation, he will be delaying the point where consolidation matters.

    As you have pointed out previously, not all of the anti-Trump vote would go to a single candidate-a DeSantis or Ramaswamy voter is not a Haley voter. Their votes would more likely go to Trump, as those candidates are similar to Trump than Haley.

    Further, you fail to consider what portion of Trump’s support is from “winner” voters who might look at someone else who is an actual contender.

    Most polls have shown that Trump’s voters are more enthusiastic about their candidate and are more likely to say their vote is locked in (no matter what). Polls have showed that Trump has fewer supporters looking at someone else while there are more DeSantis and Haley voters looking at someone else than are supporting them. For example, in New Hampshire:

    More than 8 in 10 Trump supporters (83%) say their choice is definite, compared with 29% who back other candidates, including roughly a quarter of Haley’s supporters (27%) and Christie’s backers (25%)……nearly two-thirds of likely GOP primary voters (63%) say they’d be at least satisfied with Trump as the nominee, greater than the share saying the same about any other major candidate.

    And in Iowa:

    Seventy percent of Trump supporters say their minds are made up — the highest of any candidate……more than three-quarters of likely Republican caucusgoers say he is either their first choice, their second choice or someone they are actively considering supporting. …….Less than one-third (30%) of DeSantis’ supporters say their minds are made up, while more than two-thirds (70%) say they could still be persuaded to support someone else. ……Just over one-third of Haley’s supporters (34%) say their minds are made up……. About two-thirds (65%) say they could be persuaded to support someone else.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  344. Right-wing media has normalized Trump’s lies. And they help bail him out of “dictator for a day” and “termination” of the constitution comments too…or for calling for the execution of Mark Milley. Most elected GOP politicians echo the spin and have not called for a reckoning on his impending legal entanglements. The polls then just reinforce the bad behavior of the media and politicians. This is the ecosystem. Too few on the Right want to discuss the potential of having a candidate who will be a convicted felon….as if everything else that comes with that can be spun away.

    When the first trial starts to spin up…there will be a come-to-Jesus moment…maybe multiple ones. I fear the reaction those moments will excite.

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  345. You and Cottagio has simply lost the plot.

    Said the partisan who still pathetically uses “Russia collusion hoax” in a sentence. You and Rich Lowry.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  346. Kevin the quiz was on sex vs gender. I don’t think there’s anyone “trying” to claim that biological males can have babies. I’ve never heard anyone make that claim.

    I think maybe you are misunderstanding sex vs gender as well.

    Good thing this teacher is helping clear things up for the younger generation!

    Nate (24e30b)

  347. @349

    You and Cottagio has simply lost the plot.

    Said the partisan who still pathetically uses “Russia collusion hoax” in a sentence. You and Rich Lowry.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d) — 12/12/2023 @ 1:47 pm

    There were no Russian collusion with Trump campaign. Ergo, it’s a “hoax”.

    You and rabid Democrats keep pushing this.

    Keep ignoring reality.

    whembly (5f7596)

  348. you can never read the same book twice. The book has not changed, but you have.

    nk (40f66d) — 12/10/2023 @ 7:29 pm

    Sorry, nk! I completely missed what you meant. I took “never read the same book twice” literally. Of course we re-read books, but we get different things from them on subsequent readings. Hence, it’s not the “same” book.

    norcal (c159a9)

  349. You can still criticize many transgressions that Trump has committed, while at the same to admonish his critics for abusing their positions in their zeal to “get Trump”.

    whembly (5f7596) — 12/11/2023 @ 3:07 pm

    I agree with this. Some people did abuse their positions in their zeal to get Trump.

    The fact remains that Trump, with his Big Lie about the 2020 election, has blown a gaping hole in the foundation of our Republic.

    norcal (c159a9)

  350. Many on here write what they do to manipulate and incite others. They aren’t interested in any Republicans winning.

    NJRob (eb56c3) — 12/11/2023 @ 4:29 pm

    That does not describe me. I’d vote for any Republican, other than Trump or Ramaswamy, over Biden. I believe that some of the questionable things DeSantis has said were just efforts to court the MAGA contingent.

    norcal (c159a9)

  351. @353

    The fact remains that Trump, with his Big Lie about the 2020 election, has blown a gaping hole in the foundation of our Republic.

    norcal (c159a9) — 12/12/2023 @ 2:05 pm

    Humor me with this.

    Where/what/how is this “gaping hole” in our foundation of our Republic?

    whembly (5f7596)

  352. Where/what/how is this “gaping hole” in our foundation of our Republic?

    whembly (5f7596) — 12/12/2023 @ 2:09 pm

    If people don’t have faith in elections, then they will be okay with a strongman taking over. Trump wants to be that strongman.

    Did you see his tweet about wanting to terminate the Constitution? If Obama or Biden had said that, you’d never hear the end of it from Fox News, Tucker, and talk radio.

    norcal (c159a9)

  353. If tomorrow in a freak accident your penis is lopped off, do you stop being a man?

    I think most people would agree you do not. The difference between sex and gender might be one you don’t understand (it’s tricky for most people), but it’s a concept worth learning about and this quiz wasn’t wrong. Not all men have penises.

    Nate (24e30b) — 12/12/2023 @ 11:55 am

    Get some help.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  354. I think maybe you are misunderstanding sex vs gender as well.

    I think that I am refusing to see the difference. It’s not me that is misunderstanding reality, it’s you that is putting up fictional constructs upon it.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  355. But there’s no way to misuse the military.

    You’ll have to, um, put that in context. Vietnam comes to mind.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  356. Norcal,

    the left is deliberately destroying trust in our elections. They refuse voter ID, claim whenever Republicans win it’s because they cheated and disenfranchised minorities or that they want to put them back in chains.

    How soon you forget.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  357. Gender is a literary term that has to do with masculine and feminine descriptions. Sex refers to a man or a woman.

    But it figures the left continues to destroy the language in the name of indoctrination.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  358. Nic,

    Do you think it’s a good idea to tell young children that they can change their “gender” if they want? Pretty sure they are clueless and look to adults for guidance. Giving them guidance that is based on a fantastical ideology seems wrong.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  359. Right-wing media has normalized Trump’s lies. And they help bail him out of “dictator for a day” and “termination” of the constitution comments too…or for calling for the execution of Mark Milley.

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3) — 12/12/2023 @ 1:03 pm

    Some people are so caught up in right versus left that they can’t see Trump for the true danger he is. I sometimes wonder if they’d prefer a dictator with the “right” policies over a lefty who was elected.

    norcal (c159a9)

  360. @356

    Where/what/how is this “gaping hole” in our foundation of our Republic?

    whembly (5f7596) — 12/12/2023 @ 2:09 pm

    If people don’t have faith in elections, then they will be okay with a strongman taking over. Trump wants to be that strongman.

    Who’s at fault here regarding the lack of faith in elections?

    Couldn’t the shenanigan during the covid-era be the culprit?

    Saying Trump wants to be that “strongman” is projection.

    Trump is a braggadocious blowhard who’s incapable of doing the hard work to become this “strongman” or “dictator”.

    He’s just wants the prestige of the Presidency and bask in it’s glory.

    Did you see his tweet about wanting to terminate the Constitution? If Obama or Biden had said that, you’d never hear the end of it from Fox News, Tucker, and talk radio.

    norcal (c159a9) — 12/12/2023 @ 2:18 pm

    No.

    But, I did see he said wanted to be a “dictator” only for 1 day. But he was joking. I guess that’s where all these stories of “TrUmP iS gOiNg To Be A dIcTaToR yOu GuYs!?!”

    But, again, you ignored my initial question:
    How has (Trump) blown a gaping hole in the foundation of our Republic in comment @353???

    whembly (5f7596)

  361. Norcal,

    the left is deliberately destroying trust in our elections. They refuse voter ID, claim whenever Republicans win it’s because they cheated and disenfranchised minorities or that they want to put them back in chains.

    How soon you forget.

    NJRob (eb56c3) — 12/12/2023 @ 2:24 pm

    That is also wrong. Two wrongs don’t make a right.

    norcal (c159a9)

  362. How has (Trump) blown a gaping hole in the foundation of our Republic in comment @353???

    whembly (5f7596) — 12/12/2023 @ 2:29 pm

    By convincing so many people that he actually won the election. If we can’t agree on election results, then we don’t have much of a country.

    norcal (c159a9)

  363. @363

    Some people are so caught up in right versus left that they can’t see Trump for the true danger he is. I sometimes wonder if they’d prefer a dictator with the “right” policies over a lefty who was elected.

    norcal (c159a9) — 12/12/2023 @ 2:27 pm

    I see Biden and most of the current crop of the likely Democrat POTUS candidates much, much worse than a 2nd Trump term.

    But, yes, that’s how it works in some country norcal.

    ‘Tis why, I’ve been yammering about ya’ll getting behind DeSantis.

    I just want to win in 2024. We cannot afford another Biden administration.

    whembly (5f7596)

  364. @366

    How has (Trump) blown a gaping hole in the foundation of our Republic in comment @353???

    whembly (5f7596) — 12/12/2023 @ 2:29 pm

    By convincing so many people that he actually won the election. If we can’t agree on election results, then we don’t have much of a country.

    norcal (c159a9) — 12/12/2023 @ 2:31 pm

    That’s silly.

    We’ve survived 2016. How many time you hear from Democrats that Trump’s election as illegitimate?

    Hell, the Bush v. Gore in 2000 was much more contentious, and that’s because much of the media was almost exclusively Democratic leaning.

    The United States of America has gone through these hotly contested elections and weathered the storm just fine.

    Have a little faith.

    whembly (5f7596)

  365. Did you see his tweet about wanting to terminate the Constitution? If Obama or Biden had said that, you’d never hear the end of it from Fox News, Tucker, and talk radio.

    norcal (c159a9) — 12/12/2023 @ 2:18 pm

    No.

    whembly (5f7596) — 12/12/2023 @ 2:29 pm

    Here you go:

    “A Massive Fraud of this type and magnitude allows for the termination of all rules, regulations, and articles, even those found in the Constitution. Our great ‘Founders’ did not want, and would not condone, False & Fraudulent Elections!” he said.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-63851751

    He said it a year ago. People who only pay attention to right-wing media may not know about it.

    My mom hadn’t heard about it. She is a 50+ year John Bircher who loves the Constitution. When she found out Trump said that, she switched her support to DeSantis.

    norcal (c159a9)

  366. We’ve survived 2016. How many time you hear from Democrats that Trump’s election as illegitimate?

    Hell, the Bush v. Gore in 2000 was much more contentious, and that’s because much of the media was almost exclusively Democratic leaning.

    whembly (5f7596) — 12/12/2023 @ 2:36 pm

    Those were bad, but J6 and the fake certifications surrounding the 2020 election were much worse.

    norcal (c159a9)

  367. @369 norcal (c159a9) — 12/12/2023 @ 2:37 pm
    Ah, I remember that.

    Trump is a blowhard who makes up absolute crap all the time.

    He threatens to do ‘x’ but never gets there.

    He’s an awful President who can’t get out of his own way of meaningful GOP progress without putting aside his own ego.

    …and I’ll still take him for 2nd term over any Democrats. Bide was supposed to be bring “the adult” back to the Whitehouse. He utterly failed that metric.

    A 2nd Trump term will be more of the same of the 1st, which if people were honest about the kitchen table topics…were much better under Trump’s administration than at any point under Biden’s.

    But I want to win, and win convincingly.

    Vote for DeSantis! Convince your peers to vote for DeSantis!

    I would say, vote for DeSantis as often as you can! But, that’s illegal… 😉

    whembly (5f7596)

  368. @370

    Those were bad, but J6 and the fake certifications surrounding the 2020 election were much worse.

    norcal (c159a9) — 12/12/2023 @ 2:42 pm

    Wholeheartedly disagree.

    whembly (5f7596)

  369. @372 But, that’s simply an opinion.

    We’re still a country now, aren’t we?

    We can survive these turbulently contested elections.

    whembly (5f7596)

  370. Trump’s infatuation with Viktor Orban is also telling. The fact that he specifically brings him up in campaign speeches….even when though the average voter doesn’t really know who he is….tells me he wants to start seeding what he would like to emulate. Now some might say, well, looking at the steel grip Orban has on Hungarian politics, isn’t that a good thing? In terms of civil liberties and a pluralistic democracy…it’s a bit concerning. Anyone eager to emulate Orban is someone looking to be king. That’s a problem.

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  371. @334 You get what you pay for. You want low local taxes mostly leftys will work for chump change that is paid. Their is a vast teacher shortage especially in red states where the pay is lower and classes are bigger. When fascists like desatan try to run roughshod over the education system with their right wing propaganda the teacher shortage counters this because if the democrat teachers go on strike or quit their is no one to replace them. When kansas tried to replace low paid teacher shortage with people who did not have teaching credentials mostly attracted child molesters and perverts. Same thing happened in az with charter schools.

    asset (cd406a)

  372. I vote DeSantis because he is a non-starter with the blacks, who I think could turn Trump into their LBJ 2.0, if he lets all the rapper praise get to his head. He actually seems to like nobody, which is good enough for me.

    urbanleftbehind (32e313)

  373. 287 292 Re: Giuliani

    He still seems to believe it. Outside the courthouse Giuliani said what he said about those two election workers was true.(he had some time earlier said he was not going to dispute that it was false but was not disputing it was false for the sake of argument, in order not to have a trial about that.)

    https://www.newser.com/story/343781/judge-giuliani-may-have-defamed-plaintiffs-again.html

    Giuliani told reporters that he doesn’t regret his past comments about Ruby Freeman and daughter Shaye Moss. “Everything I said about them is true,” he said. “They were engaging in changing votes.” Giuliani—who has already been found liable for defamation—said he planned to prove that his allegations were true,

    The only thing true is that somebody else brought video to his attention and claimed it showed election workers stealing votes.

    US District Judge Beryl Howell said the remarks “could support another defamation claim,” CNN reports. She said his remarks were “negative, quite defamatory statements about them yet again.” In court Tuesday, she asked Joseph Sibley how he could reconcile his client’s remarks with his opening statement, in which is said there is “really no question that these plaintiffs were harmed.” “I can’t control everything he does, your honor,” Sibley said, adding, “I think Mr. Giuliani is well aware of the law of defamation.” Later in the day, he said, “My client likes to talk a lot, unfortunately,” per the Guardian.

    Sibley said the trial has “taken a bit of a toll” on his client. “He’s almost 80 years old,” he said. “There are health concerns for Mr. Giuliani.” In testimony Tuesday, Moss said she was an outgoing person before she became the target of election conspiracy theories but she now rarely leaves her home and has panic attacks and nightmares after receiving threatening, racist messages. the AP reports. “I’m most scared of my son finding me and or my mom hanging in front of our house on a tree having to get news at school that his mom was killed,” she said. Freeman and Moss are seeking tens of millions of dollars in damages, which Sibley says “is the civil equivalent of a death penalty.”

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  374. NY State high court orders Democrats to create a new gerrymander

    Powered by a new liberal majority, the State Court of Appeals effectively wiped out the highly competitive map that helped Republicans flip four seats and win the House majority. It said the neutral lines, which it had imposed just last year, were meant only to be a temporary fix.

    Note that this is the NY Times lamenting the loss of the “highly competitive” map.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  375. @343 Netanyahu has just been talking to putin and has been reluctant to support ukraine especially at first. Where has biden disavowed Israel? He wont even disavow the the bottle deposit crook netayahu and the racists palestinian land stealers in the likud party.

    asset (cd406a)

  376. Again, it is possible to eliminate all gerrymanders with multiple-representative districts.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  377. That is also wrong. Two wrongs don’t make a right.

    But three do.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  378. @352 Heisenberg uncertainty principal.

    asset (cd406a)

  379. Their is a vast teacher shortage especially in red states where the pay is lower and classes are bigger.

    Some of that has to do with school systems that have 75% of salary going to non-teachers, and like amounts of money never getting to the classroom.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  380. @360 How soon you forget. About 15 years ago democrat party said ok you want ID to vote we will have a national voter ID that you have to show to vote. RethugliKKKans said NO! We want state IDs that we can manipulate and change rules to keep as many minorities as possible from voting. With federal ID to many minorities couldn’t be stopped from voting. In some states we can stop blacks from voting even if they only have a misdemeanor or owe fines that would go away under federal ID. In texas you can vote with hunting or fishing ID ;but not state collage ID. That would allow them to vote!

    asset (cd406a)

  381. 378. They had to do quite a lot to get this result:

    1) Get Chief Judge to resign

    2) Refuse to confirm -initially refuse to even vote on – the Governor’s first nomination and indicate whom they would and would not confirm.

    3) Get one judge to recuse herself

    4) Have the new chief judge replace (for this case) the recused judge instead of just having six judges hear the case.

    Basically they ruled that the special master’s work was only for 2022.

    I think the commission could deadlock again.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  382. But, that’s simply an opinion.

    We’re still a country now, aren’t we?

    We can survive these turbulently contested elections.

    whembly (5f7596) — 12/12/2023 @ 2:47 pm

    I hope your faith turns out to be correct.

    For the most part, I think we agree. Apart from Trump or Ramaswamy, I think any of the other Republicans are preferable to Biden.

    My take is that Trump and Ramaswamy are grifters who bring out the worst in people, on both sides. Furthermore, they are grifters who would be happy to be authoritarians.

    I do not believe that Trump will be so inept this time around. He and his cronies learned their lessons from the last go round. He will surround himself with yes-men, and appoint judges who are personally loyal to him. And if he gets some high-ranking military officers on his side, all bets are off.

    I don’t think he will heed the Federalist Society as much. After all, some of those judges recommended by the Federalist Society (including Justices on the Supreme Court) shot down Trump’s bogus lawsuits contesting the election.

    I think electing Trump again is playing with fire in a way that is much more dangerous than having lefty policies. England, Sweden, and New Zealand all used to be more socialist (and with much higher taxes) than is the case now.

    norcal (c159a9)

  383. 384. asset (cd406a) — 12/12/2023 @ 3:22 pm

    NO! We want state IDs that we can manipulate and change rules to keep as many minorities as possible from voting.

    Really college students, who may not want to change their driver’s licenses or state IDs.

    A Supreme Court decision from 1972 says a person cannot be required to reside in a state for more than 30 days in order to be eligible to vote.

    Not allowing college IDs to be used is a workaround around this.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  384. @380 what would end gerrymandering is percentage of vote totals that still allow districts If you get 50 % of vote you get 50% of represenitives say 10 congress people rep. 50% dem. 40% lib. 10% 5 rep. 4 dem. 1 lib. State leg. same.

    asset (cd406a)

  385. @383 Thats the way it is and doesn’t solve lack of teacher issues and would actually make it worse (lack of advancement) Desatan and the rethugs have a dilemma.

    asset (cd406a)

  386. @387 college id was texas issue and brought up as example. The much bigger issue is using state ID regulations to stop minorities from voting. A national voter ID would insure only citizens vote without petty state rules like floriduh’s rules preventing people with felony convictions from voting after voter passed law allowing them to vote. Or misdemeanor traffic violations preventing you from voting. Mississippi is trying to pass a law if you owe child support you can’t vote!

    asset (cd406a)

  387. norcal (c159a9) — 12/12/2023 @ 3:26 pm

    And if he gets some high-ranking military officers on his side, all bets are off.

    They need to get confirmed by the Senate. You think there won’t be people looking out for this? And he would need more than some.

    I don’t think he will heed the Federalist Society as much.

    It will be the Heritage Foundation, in consultation with Russia.

    Or maybe not:

    https://freebeacon.com/elections/trump-campaign-swats-down-heritage-foundation-transition-effort-led-by-longtime-desantis-ally

    Trump Campaign Swats Down Heritage Foundation Transition Effort Led by Longtime DeSantis Ally

    Foundation president Kevin Roberts has lauded DeSantis’s ‘courage,’ praised governor’s education policies

    ….The Trump campaign distanced itself on Monday from a transition project led by the Heritage Foundation and other aligned groups that have broadcast their efforts to screen staffers for a second Trump administration and root out dissenters via social media posts.

    Apparently, Trump didn’t like that Putin was trying to hedge his bet.

    (The Heritage Foundation has probably been bribed by Russia. It’s working with Hungary to cut off aid to Ukraine)

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/dec/10/hungary-viktor-orban-republicans-ukraine-aid Allies of Hungary’s far-right prime minister Viktor Orbán will hold a closed-door meeting with Republicans in Washington to push for an end to US military support for Ukraine, the Guardian has learned.

    Members of the Hungarian Institute of International Affairs and staff from the Hungarian embassy in Washington will on Monday begin a two-day event hosted by the conservative Heritage Foundation thinktank. Of course, they’re also for cracking down on asylum requests, because this will also cut the United States off from defectors and other information.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  388. . Of course, they’re also for cracking down on asylum requests, because this will also cut the United States off from defectors and other information.

    That sentence is mine. The previous lines were supposed to be blockquoted. I think this anti-immigration hard line is coming from Russia.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  389. @380 what would end gerrymandering is percentage of vote totals that still allow districts

    Much simpler (and I know leftists hate simpler) is to elect 2 or 3 reps from a district, with voters getting only one choice. From some districts (e.g. San Francisco) you may get 3 from one party, but most place you will get a mixture and most voters will have someone who represents them. You will also get less polarization, even in that SF district.

    The issue we face are both polarized representatives and the feeling that “my vote doesn’t count” which happens a lot when districts are gerrymandered. If 80% of voters had someone they voted for in the legislature, it would be a lot easier to accept what the legislature does.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  390. norcal (c159a9) — 12/12/2023 @ 3:26 pm

    And if he gets some high-ranking military officers on his side, all bets are off.

    They need to get confirmed by the Senate. You think there won’t be people looking out for this? And he would need more than some.

    Last time around he had Michael Flynn in his pocket, an ex-general who, if I remember correctly, was willing to help Trump institute martial law / suspend the inauguration of Biden while the voting machines were “examined”.

    If Trump wins, and the Republicans have a majority in the Senate, I can see Trump appointing high-ranking officers who are loyal to him instead of the Constitution. We already know what Trump thinks of the Constitution.

    I’d rather play it safe, and not have Trump or Ramaswamy anywhere near the White House.

    norcal (c159a9)

  391. Sununu endorses Nikki Haley

    Gov. Chris Sununu of New Hampshire endorsed Nikki Haley for the Republican presidential nomination at a campaign event Tuesday evening, casting her as a fresh face for the party who could take on the elites in Washington and move the nation past the “nonsense and drama” of former President Donald J. Trump.

    “We are all in for Nikki Haley,” Mr. Sununu said to loud cheers at a ski area in Manchester, adding that her momentum was “real” and “tangible” and that her poll numbers and ground game have been “absolutely unbelievable.”

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  392. Sununu endorses Nikki Haley

    The Trump opponents are making the same mistake that was made in 2016: holding on past the point where opposition matters. ……..

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 12/12/2023 @ 10:24 am

    Sununu endorses Nikki isn’t exactly a no-brainer. From your link:

    Given his popularity and his proven ability to win as a Republican in a state that leans Democratic, Mr. Sununu could help sway the moderate Republicans and independents whom Ms. Haley is counting on to give her a strong showing in New Hampshire’s first-in-the-nation primary on Jan. 23.

    Endorsements are overrated. DeSantis’s endorsements in Iowa by Gov. Kim Reynolds and Bob Vander Plaats have done little to staunch his campaign’s bleeding. But in Haley’s case at least it could consolidate the wine and cheese crowd. At best this endorsement will cannibalize from Christie’s support, but will do nothing to cut into Trump’s base.

    As I pointed out above, even if Haley consolidated the Christie vote and all of the DeSantis vote (which would be extremely unlikely), she will still come in second (Ramaswamy’s supporters are in the Trump camp). She will still receive some delegates, so it won’t be a total loss.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  393. Correction:

    Sununu endorses Nikki isn’t exactly is a no-brainer.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  394. Endorsements are overrated. DeSantis’s endorsements in Iowa by Gov. Kim Reynolds and Bob Vander Plaats have done little to staunch his campaign’s bleeding

    So, you say that endorsements of fading candidates don’t help and extrapolate that to endorsements of rising candidates. Sorry, I’m not buying. If Sununu had endorsed DeSantis it might not have helped DeSantis, but it would have been severe blow to Haley’s momentum.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  395. A NH result like

    Trump – 50
    Haley – 30
    DeSantis – 8
    Christie – 7
    Vivek – 5

    would end several campaigns

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  396. Vivek will stay in until Trump stops funding him.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  397. Kevin M (ed969f) — 12/12/2023 @ 6:02 pm

    Haley’s momentum is only among the NH wine and cheese crowd. Sununu‘s endorsement won’t do anything to diminish Trump’s lead. Two different sets of voters.

    I wouldn’t be surprised to see the NH results similar to your breakdown-which would prove that Sununu‘s endorsement couldn’t put Haley over the top-or stop Trump.

    Rip Murdock (f97e54)

  398. Haley is a rising candidate only paper, cannibalizing support from other non-Trump candidates in an open primary state. She really hasn’t dented Trump’s support.

    It remains to be seen whether she can take votes away from Trump in a primary where Democrats and independents can’t participate.

    Rip Murdock (f97e54)

  399. @396 vander plaat orders his “church ladies” to vote for who ever pays him the most money, in this case desatan.

    asset (35c2c0)

  400. Texas supreme court orders woman with dying fetus not to have abortion. In kentucky woman with dead fetus asking court for abortion. Even republican women will have to vote democrat as this horror saga continues. Ken paxton is lucky a squish like biden is in the white house.

    asset (35c2c0)

  401. CBS news: Israelis demonstrate against netanyahu for allowing Qatar to give cash payments (in bags) to Hamas to buy weapons to kill Israelis. So the crook can get his cut.

    asset (35c2c0)

  402. How much fraud is there with mail in voting?

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  403. “She really hasn’t dented Trump’s support.”

    What tactic should Haley be using to erode Trump’s support?

    AJ_Liberty (aa1c83)

  404. “She really hasn’t dented Trump’s support.”

    What tactic should Haley be using to erode Trump’s support?

    AJ_Liberty (aa1c83) — 12/12/2023 @ 8:48 pm

    I have no idea, but once ( or if) Haley consolidates the anti-Trump vote, she will need to find some way to do so. Being anti-Trump is currently a minority position among Republican voters.

    Rip Murdock (f97e54)

  405. RIP actor Andre Braugher (61). Starred in Homicide: Life On The Streets, one of my favorite TV shows; and in Brooklyn Nine-Nine.

    Rip Murdock (f97e54)

  406. @406 This was a problem for trumpsters. For many years republicans have run on voter fraud even though most who are caught do it are republicans as I have chronicled here. Because republicans over the years have made voting more difficult under the guise of preventing voter fraud to suppress democrat votes it is really hard to do. In AZ your mail in signature is checked against your registration signature and if they don’t match you are called down to county recorder to match signatures or your vote doesn’t count. If counted your name is put in county computer that you voted so you can’t vote twice. The best the trumpsters could come up with was that people left without voting because they were changing ink in the ballot printer and it took to long. Ballots printed by printing company had the printers logo on ballot and the trumpsters wanted those ballots thrown out and not counted. Had this been done a congressman and a superintendent of public instruction and several state legislators all republicans would have lost! Sydney powell admitted that she made up lies about the voting machine company at her trial for defamation and said nobody believes somebody like her!

    asset (35c2c0)

  407. AJ_Liberty (aa1c83) — 12/12/2023 @ 8:48 pm

    If Haley intends to hold out until Trump implodes, she will probably be disappointed. Trump can win or come in second in primaries, racking up delegates, even while on trial. Huge numbers of voters will have cast their ballots in advance of Super Tuesday and primaries beyond before a verdict is reached in the election interference case.

    Rip Murdock (f97e54)

  408. Rip, you keep making the same mistake over and over — you assume that Trump’s support is solid and there is no bandwagon component.

    If there is another game in town, I’d expect him to lose up to a quarter of his current support, especially if that other candidate looked much stronger against Biden.

    The only thing certain about static analysis is that it’s wrong.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  409. I could not see what it said on several computers.I just saw a big X.

    Sammy, I have an unhealthy attachment to my Windows 7, but I sometimes wonder if you aren’t still running Windows 95. Here’s the Jennifer Griffin tweet that elicited Pat’s opinion that the GOP is “repulsive”:

    “Update: Russia fires cruise missiles at Kyiv for first time in nearly three months as Putin allies on Russian State TV praise Congress for not passing Ukraine aid.”

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  410. @412 If trump supporters were traditional conservative economic libertarian free trade reagan republicans instead of populists you might have a point. Indictments grab um by the ….. had no effect. Just as they stood by the fuhrer as the russian tanks rolled in! As sun tzu said no your enemy and yourself like I do, you need not fear the outcome of a hundred battles. If you no neither you will always lose. Clap please. For the umpteen time reagan invited the ignorant southern white trash racist democrats into the republican party at philadelphia mississippi in 1980 where the three civil rights workers were murdered by these same racists. Trump hates the same people they hate and desatan pretends to hate with that fake alfred e. newman smile. Why do you think the 70% of the party who are populists and loathe never trumpers will change? Remember vote early and often for curly who was elected boston mayor from a jail cell. Many have been elected after felony convictions and some even from jail cells. You are not a populist so you don’t understand. I do as I am non-ignorant southern white trash and native american and have lived among all my 74 years. I remember segregation and how people were treated with poor white people like me treated a litle better ;but not much. Standing in line for hours at county hospital waiting to be seen with a thousand other people as before medicare regular hospitals didn’t have to treat you. People died in line waiting to be seen though fortunetly not when I was in line with my family. This breeds hate though they hate the wrong people.

    asset (35c2c0)

  411. @413 america firsters and islolationists like charles lindbergh praised hitler. Nothing new and they were republicans too!

    asset (35c2c0)

  412. @408 &411, If Trump is convicted, it would take Biden dying…maybe….for Trump to win the 2024 election. There’s no way moderates, independents, and law-and-order conservatives will vote for him.

    This will be made real in polls as the trial concludes, likely before the convention in Milwaukee. Trump certainly has an advantage at the convention to fight to hold the nomination. But we would be in truly unprecedented times and it’s likely that many voters will have buyer’s remorse. Will they choose to lose to Biden versus go in a different direction? Maybe.

    Current polls only reflect today’s spin on the narrative. That charges are political and that the events surrounding J6 might have been wrong, but they weren’t illegal. Those polls don’t convey the wear and tear of evidence that will come out and the likely weak defense response. I predict opinions will change. There’s nothing about J6 that is noble. The imagery of Trump fiddling while Capitol police are dragged unconscious down the Capitol stairs will be devastating.

    As you agree that there is no clear strategy that Haley should be employing right now, the only action left is to wait for opinion to shift and be ready as the alternative. That means maximizing her vote count…and not shooting herself in her foot because you want to see her do it. She remains a better general election option than DeSantis and I think early voting will prove that out.

    AJ_Liberty (cac332)

  413. Rip, you keep making the same mistake over and over — you assume that Trump’s support is solid and there is no bandwagon component.

    If there is another game in town, I’d expect him to lose up to a quarter of his current support, especially if that other candidate looked much stronger against Biden.

    You’re assuming Trump supporters are rational voters, I am not. They want their retribution and “dictator for a day,” and only Trump can provide that. The polls for the past six months haven’t shown any movement away from Trump, in fact his support has grown.

    His supporters have consistently said he is the best candidate against Biden. There is no reason to believe Trump voters will support anyone else (all other being equal). For Trump supporters, he is the only game in town.

    As we have seen with the impact of indictments, I expect to see his polling strength grow rather than shrink during any trials.

    If….. I expect…….

    Rip Murdock (f97e54)

  414. Gonna go to Sarasota!
    Gonna find myself a threesome!

    The Sarasota Police Department is investigating a woman’s accusation that Christian Ziegler raped her at her apartment in October. Police documents say the Zieglers and the woman had planned a sexual threesome that day, but Bridget Ziegler was unable to make it. The accuser says Christian Ziegler arrived anyway and assaulted her, according to the documents.
    ….
    Bridget Ziegler has long been active in conservative politics. She was a champion of the DeSantis-backed law known by critics as “Don’t Say Gay,” which restricts teaching of sexual and gender material in early school grades. Moms for Liberty, which she co-founded in 2021, aims to inject more conservative viewpoints into schools, restrict transgender rights, battle pandemic mask mandates and remove books the group objects to from school classrooms and libraries.

    In addition, DeSantis appointed Bridget Ziegler to the new Central Florida Tourism Oversight District that oversees Walt Disney World’s operations. That panel – which replaced one controlled by Disney – was created by the Legislature at DeSantis’ request after Disney objected to the “Don’t Say Gay” law. The board currently is the subject of state and federal lawsuits over control of the huge theme park outside Orlando.

    Some folks complain about the hypocrisy. To quote Bill Clinton, close but no cigar. It’s Florida Republicans peddling swamp gas as eu de conservatism. These are DeSantis’s close cronies and they pretty much define him and his sicko party.

    nk (dc6849)

  415. AJ_Liberty (cac332) — 12/13/2023 @ 4:20 am:

    …….many voters will have buyer’s remorse.

    I’ve had buyer’s remorse just about every time I’ve voted. 😉 Haley has already been “shooting herself in her foot” on her own. All you need to do is wait a few days.

    So far the primary polls have been remarkably consistent for Trump, with the only changes among the Lilliputians. We’ll see in a few weeks if the current polls are “spin” or not. If Trump wins in Iowa and NH, then I guess not.

    Since the first major trial won’t start until the day before Super Tuesday, it will have little impact on the campaign. Some 800+ delegates will be chosen on that date, with many voters casting their ballots in February. They may have “buyer’s remorse”, but that’s the price you pay for voting early.

    No matter the media hype, it is way too early to predict a general election result, given the variables of any Trump trials, convictions/acquittals, and whether RFKJr. (or some other candidate) can get on a significant number of state ballots. It’s a toss up.

    As you agree that there is no clear strategy that Haley should be employing right now…….

    I have reconsidered, and believe she will start adopting “Trump lite” policy positions, agreeing with him but adopting a less extreme approach. Of course, this could bring accusations of “me-tooism” and flip flopping……..But it will be ineffective, since why would a Trump voter vote for a “lite” version when they can vote for the real thing.

    Rip Murdock (f97e54)

  416. Nailed it.
    https://www.nationalreview.com/2023/12/lame-ducks-and-dictators/


    In the real world, the danger of Trump is not an excess of order but the absence of it. This problem is very likely to be compounded by the fact that he would be elected as a lame duck. In fact, electing him again puts the final expiry date on his influence over the Republican Party, thus slowly freeing people to try more brinksmanship with him.

    The effect of opinion pieces such as Kagan’s and Coppins’s — the intended effect — is to soften the ground for extralegal resistance to an elected Trump administration. They license people to treat the bumbling distractible lech in the Oval Office as if he were a person who thinks infinitely — and therefore represents an immediate physical and political peril to us all. It allows people to shake their fist at a TV-addicted buffoon but feel like they are standing up to the politburo under Stalin.

    Unfortunately, the obvious lesson Providence wishes to teach us with Trump is that in our age, heroism begins in self-effacement and humility. Who wants to learn that?

    whembly (5f7596)

  417. https://www.foxnews.com/politics/hunter-biden-appears-on-capitol-hill

    Hunter Biden pulled a Steve Bannon.

    Anyone want to guess if the DOJ will prosecute Hunter for refusing a Congressional subpoena?

    It does put Merrick Garland is a spot.

    Bueller? Bueller?

    whembly (5f7596)

  418. Ouch!

    Rip Murdock (f97e54)

  419. whembly (5f7596) — 12/13/2023 @ 8:40 am

    Hunter Biden’s response: Take a number and get in line.

    Rip Murdock (f97e54)

  420. https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/washington-secrets/coming-clean-1-in-5-admit-2020-election-fraud

    About 20% of 2020 voters now claim they took advantage of election laws that loosened up because of the coronavirus crisis to commit fraud, including filling out ballots for others, according to a shocking report being unveiled Tuesday.

    Some admitted they voted in states they don’t live in, and others said they let somebody else fill out their mail-in ballots, neither of which is allowed.

    HOW THE AI BOOM COULD BOOST ENERGY USE AND CARBON EMISSIONS

    “For the past three years, Americans have repeatedly been told that the 2020 election was the most secure in history. But if this poll’s findings are reflective of reality, the exact opposite is true. This conclusion isn’t based on conspiracy theories or suspect evidence, but rather from the responses made directly by the voters themselves,” said Justin Haskins, director of the Heartland Institute’s Socialism Research Center.

    “The 2020 election was unlike any other in history as tens of millions of Americans voted by mail due to the COVID-19 pandemic. At the time, many experts warned that massive mail-in voting could result in widespread voter fraud. Unfortunately, these concerns were prophetic, as the results of this poll clearly show that a large number of voters did indeed fraudulently cast ballots in the 2020 election,” Heartland Editorial Director Chris Talgo added.

    Election fraud? What election fraud?

    NJRob (de583a)

  421. You’re assuming Trump supporters are rational voters, I am not.

    No, I am assuming that *some* of them are. There is an unpersuadable core, of course, but quite a few people answer “Trump” to pollsters for different reasons: resignation, orneriness, ignorance of alternatives and bandwagon effect to name a few.

    In states where there is active campaigning Trump’s numbers are lowest; this indicates that people can be persuaded and are being persuaded. Add to that any possible disruption of the “inevitability” argument and you have Trump possibly joining the Hillary 2008 campaign.

    Democrat 2008 polling (also graph) showed Hillary winning every poll through January 2008, but then losing IA, SC and NV while barely winning in NH. Later, Edwards dropped out and almost all his delegates with to Obama.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  422. Some folks complain about the hypocrisy. To quote Bill Clinton, close but no cigar. It’s Florida Republicans peddling swamp gas as eu de conservatism. These are DeSantis’s close cronies and they pretty much define him and his sicko party.

    nk (dc6849) — 12/13/2023 @ 6:12 am

    Nonsense. DeSantis told them to step down.

    NJRob (de583a)

  423. with went.

    I have whole-word typos.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  424. Unfortunately, the obvious lesson Providence wishes to teach us with Trump is that in our age, heroism begins in self-effacement and humility. Who wants to learn that?

    It’s not something that you learn, it’s something that comes from character.

    But yes, Trump is being cast as Emmanuel Goldstein by some, and ironically this makes him more attractive to those that want to burn it all down.

    Better to portray him as he is: a chaos agent whose bumbling incoherence over 4 years cost them countless opportunities and portends to do so fro another 4 years regardless of who wins in 2024.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  425. Election fraud? What election fraud?

    Or is it polling fraud? I’d like to see the crosstabs with their actual party registration.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  426. In states where there is active campaigning Trump’s numbers are lowest; this indicates that people can be persuaded and are being persuaded.

    What states show Trump’s poll numbers are declining? Not Iowa. Not New Hampshire. His numbers have been relatively stable over time. It doesn’t matter if they are lower than his national average, he still leads his opponents by a substantial margin.

    I daresay that the current Republican electorate is far more committed than the Democratic electorate of 15 years ago.

    Rip Murdock (f97e54)

  427. I doubt Hillary had a 20+ lead over Obama in any state in 2008.

    Rip Murdock (f97e54)

  428. I doubt Hillary had a 20+ lead over Obama in any state in 2008.

    I give you links, I give you graphs, and all I get is “I doubt”?

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  429. And as I pointed out previously, a more Haley and DeSantis voters are considering other candidates than are committed to them.
    The percentage of Trump supporters who are solidly behind him is much higher than those considering other candidates.

    Rip Murdock (f97e54)

  430. What states show Trump’s poll numbers are declining?

    The are both 10 to 20 points under the national polls, which shows that some HAVE been persuaded by campaigns. Given another candidate a better likelihood to compete and you will see more defections.

    For someone who professes to be against Trump, you seem to be cheering him on pretty hard and spinning every doubt his way.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  431. Kevin M (ed969f) — 12/13/2023 @ 10:03 am

    It’s still irrelevant to 2023.

    Rip Murdock (f97e54)

  432. Trump’s supporters have a passion all their own.

    Rip Murdock (f97e54)

  433. The are both 10 to 20 points under the national polls, which shows that some HAVE been persuaded by campaigns. Given another candidate a better likelihood to compete and you will see more defections.

    Voters in Iowa and NH do have choices, and so far they have chosen Trump. He doesn’t need a majority to win.

    Rip Murdock (f97e54)

  434. For someone who professes to be against Trump, you seem to be cheering him on pretty hard and spinning every doubt his way.

    In absence of actual facts that Trump supporters are persuadable, it may seem that way. My argument is that they aren’t persuadable, as polling has shown they are more committed to their candidate than supporters of Haley or DeSantis, combined with his relatively stable polling.

    We’ll see if his support holds after Iowa and NH vote.

    Rip Murdock (f97e54)

  435. If Trump supporters were persuadable, you would see a steady decline in his poll numbers. That just doesn’t exist (at least in Iowa and NH).

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  436. Kevin: “In states where there is active campaigning Trump’s numbers are lowest”

    Rip: “What states show Trump’s poll numbers are declining?”

    Aren’t those two different points?

    Rip: “Since the first major trial won’t start until the day before Super Tuesday, it will have little impact on the campaign.”

    You don’t think an impending trial-of-the-century won’t grip most media sources for the month leading up to it? Speculation and analysis will run rampant. It certainly may keep solidifying people in their bubble…but there are moderates and independents….Trump can’t win without them. He sat while the Capitol was sieged. The actual legal indictment aside, people will be reminded how horrible a person he is.

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  437. New Wisconsin poll finds Ron DeSantis in 38-point hole

    ………..
    The Public Policy Polling survey of 502 likely voters, conducted Dec. 11-12, found former President Donald Trump with three times as much support as the Florida Governor.

    “Just as he has nationally, Trump has strengthened his position in Wisconsin over the course of the last six months. He now has 54% support compared to 16% for Ron DeSantis, 15% for Nikki Haley, 5% for Chris Christie, and 4% for Vivek Ramaswamy,” reads a polling memo, which goes on to suggest the former President has gotten stronger throughout the campaign.

    “That 38 point lead for Trump more than doubles his 16 point advantage from our June poll. Since then his support is up 13 points, DeSantis’ is down 9 points, and Haley’s is up by 10.”
    ………

    Wisconsin’s winner take all primary for 41 delegates is on April 2nd.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  438. AJ_Liberty (5f05c3) — 12/13/2023 @ 10:47 am

    How different will the media coverage be from what it has already been-it’s been rehashed over and over again since Trump was indicted. The January 6th indictment coverage is already baked in the polls. Trump supporters don’t care-for them it was a “perfect day.”

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  439. Kevin: “In states where there is active campaigning Trump’s numbers are lowest”

    Rip: “What states show Trump’s poll numbers are declining?”

    Aren’t those two different points?

    Yes, and I think whether Trump’s poll numbers are declining is more important than whether they are lower than his national numbers. That is to be expected since the national numbers include Trump strongholds in the South and other regions, while individual state polls encompass a smaller population. It doesn’t matter if Trump’s state polling numbers are lower than his national numbers, what is important is how his state polling numbers are behaving. They aren’t declining, they are holding steady, which tells me that his supporters are not being persuaded to jump ship. And he doesn’t need a majority of votes to win delegates, a plurality will do.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  440. Heh…

    /in Bill Clinton’s southern voice…

    “I did not have financial relations with that father” https://t.co/XEQKHpg76B

    — zerohedge (@zerohedge) December 13, 2023

    whembly (5f7596)

  441. No candidate save Christie was willing to go scorched earth on Trump, they’re all hedging their bets, for to go scorched earth on Trump is to also forfeit a future in MAGA land. Even Haley still calls him a “friend,” (last time I checked). “To be the man you got to beat the man,” to quote the great Ric Flair. Nobody wanted it bad enough.

    JRH (14e837)

  442. Oh, and don’t forget the meek, cowed hand-raising, when asked if they’d support Trump even if indicted on felony counts. Truly inspirational.

    JRH (14e837)

  443. @446 JRH (14e837) — 12/13/2023 @ 11:24 am
    tbf, DeSantis has been going to town against Trump lately.

    First, by pointing out that Trump’s focus is going to be divided by trying to campaign vs. having to sit in federal court for his trials.

    This is most recent criticism:
    https://www.nationalreview.com/news/desantis-blasts-trumps-offensive-comments-about-debating-clinton-after-access-hollywood-tape-release/?utm_source=recirc-desktop&utm_medium=homepage&utm_campaign=hero&utm_content=related&utm_term=first

    DeSantis, nor anyone else don’t need to go to “scorched earth” on Trump. Just continue to contrast and compare.

    Scorching earth is also not a viable pathway, because if a non-Trump candidate wins the nomination, they’ll need the Trump supporter’s votes in the general.

    There’s no need for the candidates to commit Hari-kari.

    whembly (5f7596)

  444. About 20% of 2020 voters now claim they took advantage of election laws that loosened up because of the coronavirus crisis to commit fraud, including filling out ballots for others, according to a shocking report being unveiled Tuesday.

    I think this is probably a poll with slanted questions. Others would be family members.

    What’s the situation in places that case all votes by mail?

    Sammy Finkelman (c2c77e)

  445. “The January 6th indictment coverage is already baked in the polls.”

    Wanna bet.

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  446. FLASHBACK: Joe Biden Called On Justice Department To Prosecute Anyone Defying Congressional Subpoenas

    “I hope that the committee goes after them and holds them accountable.”

    lloyd (58fc57)

  447. Nailed it.
    https://www.nationalreview.com/2023/12/lame-ducks-and-dictators/

    In the real world, the danger of Trump is not an excess of order but the absence of it.

    whembly (5f7596) — 12/13/2023 @ 8:28 am

    I guessed that it was either Rich Lowry or Michael Brendan Dougherty who wrote that article before I clicked.

    There is a great comment under that article, whembly. I rarely quote a comment from another site, but this one is too good to ignore.

    BlackScholes

    3h

    MBD makes the very popular of late — fret not, Trump’s too incompetent, undisciplined, scatterbrained and lazy to be an actual dictator — argument. But he leaves out some unique factors that’ll play a pivotal role in a second Trump term.

    For starters, there’s the avoiding prison factor. Plus the constitutional crisis which likely accompanies it. Consensus view on the Mar-a-Lago national defense documents and obstructing justice case is bleak. Even Bill Barr and Andy McCarthy think they’ve got Trump dead to rights.

    McCarthy also thinks it’s likely he’s convicted of some of the charges in the DC case scheduled to start on March 4th and last 2-3 months. Conviction in June and incarceration in August is a real possibility.

    In this Bizarro World scenario, I assume Trump is transferred from jail to the Capitol for his swearing in ceremony on Inauguration day. A convicted felon as POTUS whose campaigned on retribution.

    Can a POTUS preemptively self-pardon himself? If SCOTUS rules yes, the above the law implications are boundless. What happens if a POTUS orders his AG to drop ongoing federal cases against him? What if it’s a non-Senate confirmed acting AG lackey appointed for this sole purpose?

    What happens if a POTUS orders his DOJ to attempt to get state AGs to do the same? What happens on the first day of trial if they refuse? I could go on for hours.

    But the path to an infuriated above the law dictatorial POTUS without the restraints of reelection nor a Republican Congress willing to hold him accountable isn’t difficult to envision.

    I sincerely hope those who say “fret not” about a second Trump presidency have no reason to regret their stance down the road. To me, it’s playing with fire.

    norcal (82dad4)

  448. Wisconsin’s winner take all primary for 41 delegates is on April 2nd.

    Campaigning starts in March, as does the trial.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  449. I have to agree with AJ though — even if Trump has the nomination “locked” at convention time, I have a hard time believing that they will nominate a man facing (effectively) life in prison as their candidate. It would not only be Trump losing, but down-ballot would be a slaughter and most delegates have some interest in not be among the “outs.”

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  450. fret not, Trump’s too incompetent, undisciplined, scatterbrained and lazy to be an actual dictator — argument.

    This is not a solid argument for nomination, you know.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  451. “The January 6th indictment coverage is already baked in the polls.”

    Wanna bet.

    Indeed. I think it will be more a case of “Who knew?” What IS baked into the polls is “he’s inevitable.”

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  452. DeSantis, nor anyone else don’t need to go to “scorched earth” on Trump. Just continue to contrast and compare.
    …….
    whembly (5f7596) — 12/13/2023 @ 11:48 am

    For DeSantis or Haley not to go “scorched earth” on Trump while he is going “scorched earth” against them is a recipe for losing. “Compare and contrast” against Trump is a losing political strategy. What is the evidence it works?

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  453. Wisconsin’s winner take all primary for 41 delegates is on April 2nd.

    Campaigning starts in March, as does the trial.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 12/13/2023 @ 1:20 pm

    Voting will also start in March.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  454. @451

    I sincerely hope those who say “fret not” about a second Trump presidency have no reason to regret their stance down the road. To me, it’s playing with fire.

    norcal (82dad4) — 12/13/2023 @ 12:55 pm

    Of course it’s playing with fire with Trump.

    We’re on F’n fire NOW with Biden administration and the current crop of Democrat leadership.

    What does that say about Democrats?

    whembly (5f7596)

  455. @450

    FLASHBACK: Joe Biden Called On Justice Department To Prosecute Anyone Defying Congressional Subpoenas

    “I hope that the committee goes after them and holds them accountable.”

    lloyd (58fc57) — 12/13/2023 @ 12:42 pm

    I’m going to figure this out when I can.

    The date from which Bannon refused to comply till his indictment date.

    Clock’s ticking…

    whembly (5f7596)

  456. “The January 6th indictment coverage is already baked in the polls.”

    Wanna bet.

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3) — 12/13/2023 @ 12:18 pm

    I’ll take that bet. I doubt Trump’s national poll numbers don’t dip below 50% before the trial starts.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  457. @456

    For DeSantis or Haley not to go “scorched earth” on Trump while he is going “scorched earth” against them is a recipe for losing. “Compare and contrast” against Trump is a losing political strategy. What is the evidence it works?

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 12/13/2023 @ 1:55 pm

    We don’t know yet, because there hasn’t been any vote casted yet.

    But, it’s not a stretch to think that non-Trump candidates need to navigate a way to campaign against Trump without disparaging the Trump voters.

    No matter how you slice it, GOP Presidential nominees cannot win the General without the OG Trump voters.

    whembly (5f7596)

  458. Trump Civil Litigation Watch:
    ………..
    IThe appeal heard by U.S. Circuit Judges Jose Cabranes, Denny Chin, and Maria Araujo Kahn — appointed by Presidents Bill Clinton, Barack Obama, and Joe Biden — related to Trump’s failed efforts to jettison another lawsuit brought by writer E. Jean Carroll, whom Trump was found civilly liable in May of sexually assaulting in the 1990s and defaming decades later when he denied her accusations.

    “Is presidential immunity waivable? And if so, did Defendant waive it? The answer to both questions is yes,” the appellate judges concluded, since Trump failed to raise that “affirmative defense in his answer” to Carroll’s defamation complaint.
    ……….
    The three-judge panel began by walking through the history of the “presidential immunity” defense from civil liability, pointing to Nixon v. Fitzgerald and Clinton v. Jones:

    Presidential immunity is a defense that stems from “the President’s unique office, rooted in the constitutional tradition of the separation of powers and supported by our history,” and entitles the President to “absolute . . . immunity from damages liability for acts within the outer perimeter of his official responsibilities.” For example, the Supreme Court held in Nixon v. Fitzgerald that presidential immunity protected former President Richard Nixon from a lawsuit by an ex-Air Force employee who alleged that Nixon fired him in retaliation for testifying before Congress about cost overruns. Conversely, the Court held in Clinton v. Jones that presidential immunity did not shield President Clinton from civil liability for actions allegedly taken when he was Governor of Arkansas because they were not official presidential acts.

    The Second Circuit panel found “Nixon hurts, not helps, Defendant’s case” that the immunity argument “is a jurisdictional defense and is thus nonwaivable.”
    ……….

    “All in all, Defendant provides no case that turns on whether presidential immunity is jurisdictional, much less one holding that it is jurisdictional, and Nixon — described by Defendant’s counsel at oral argument as the ‘main case’ and ‘the only binding precedent’ on presidential immunity — points in the opposite direction,” the ruling continued, before summarizing the court’s view:

    To summarize: notwithstanding scattered references to “jurisdiction” in some presidential immunity cases, the Supreme Court has indicated that immunity defenses are not jurisdictional, and that presidential immunity is to be treated like other forms of immunity that Defendant does not dispute are waivable. …….

    ……….

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  459. For DeSantis or Haley not to go “scorched earth” on Trump while he is going “scorched earth” against them is a recipe for losing. “Compare and contrast” against Trump is a losing political strategy. What is the evidence it works?

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 12/13/2023 @ 1:55 pm

    We don’t know yet, because there hasn’t been any vote casted yet.

    Treating Trump with kid gloves hasn’t worked. He still dominates the polls.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  460. Can a POTUS preemptively self-pardon himself? If SCOTUS rules yes….

    Why (and how) would the SCOTUS get involved if Trump pardons himself? Who would have standing to challenge it?

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  461. even if Trump has the nomination “locked” at convention time, I have a hard time believing that they will nominate a man facing (effectively) life in prison as their candidate.

    Thwarting the voters will much?

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  462. @464

    Can a POTUS preemptively self-pardon himself? If SCOTUS rules yes….

    Why (and how) would the SCOTUS get involved if Trump pardons himself? Who would have standing to challenge it?

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 12/13/2023 @ 2:21 pm

    SCOTUS won’t take it up, as POTUS pardon power is plenary.

    However, I can certainly see Congress impeach/remove him for this.

    whembly (5f7596)

  463. @463

    Treating Trump with kid gloves hasn’t worked. He still dominates the polls.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 12/13/2023 @ 2:17 pm

    If polls ends up being wrong, how will you go on?

    whembly (5f7596)

  464. #467

    Fret not. Rip will always go on.

    Appalled (e77e15)

  465. @468

    Fret not. Rip will always go on.

    Appalled (e77e15) — 12/13/2023 @ 2:43 pm

    Good, good…

    I just hope the polls are wrong.

    I don’t want a Trump v Biden part deux election… **stamps feets**

    But, if the polls are vastly wrong.

    LOTS of introspection about polls.

    Here’s the thing: Polling is an industry. They’re selling something to someone.

    Work your way back from that, and maybe we shouldn’t put too much stock in polls to begin with.

    whembly (5f7596)

  466. However, I can certainly see Congress impeach/remove him for (a self-pardon).

    whembly (5f7596) — 12/13/2023 @ 2:32 pm

    Only if the Democrats control the House, and I doubt they could get 66 votes in the Senate. The Republican MAGA caucus would cheer, not condemn, a Trump self-pardon.

    If polls ends up being wrong, how will you go on?

    whembly (5f7596) — 12/13/2023 @ 2:33 pm

    I will be just fine. I don’t care who leads the Republican primary polls, it’s just that Trump’s lead is so large and enduring (despite four indictments, etc.) it is unprecedented in American political history. Those who construct fantasies about how to thwart Trump during the campaign or at convention don’t take this loyalty into account. Anti-Trumpers don’t accept the fact that Trump’s base is unique to him and not the Republican party per se.

    I find it hard to believe that a convention that consists of a majority of Trump delegates would change their minds and deny him the nomination. His supporters would never vote for DeSantis or Haley because they will not provide the retribution they seek.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  467. whembly (5f7596) — 12/13/2023 @ 2:49 pm

    What would yo do if the polls are right?

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  468. @471

    What would yo do if the polls are right?

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 12/13/2023 @ 2:59 pm

    Pick myself back up and do the hard work convincing folks that a 2nd Trump term is a much better alternative to continuing the policies of Biden/Democrat policies.

    whembly (5f7596)

  469. whembly (5f7596) — 12/13/2023 @ 3:08 pm

    As I suspected; but why would you need to convince people after Trump was re-elected?

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  470. @434 No break down in poll on party affiliation? Republicans like ann coulter have admitted to voting twice and woman in az was prosecuted for voting for mitt romney twice. Republicans tend to be more crooked so a little there ;but trumpsters in an anonymous poll where they wont get prosecuted will lie and say the cheated to skew the poll. Changing results of elections nil.

    asset (b46007)

  471. @432 in 2016 hillary had a 20+ point lead over bernie sanders in michigan primary and lost election.

    asset (b46007)

  472. @438 No your enemy. sun tzu. To many never trumpers no neither their enemy or themselves especially here.

    asset (b46007)

  473. Like Sun Yat-sen wrote in his classic treatise “Maintaining Your AOC Doll At Optimum Inflation”, in cave man days, if you ordered three from Column A and two from Column B, and did not get a free egg-roll, you could eat the waiter.

    nk (40e396)

  474. @448 In az and I am sure places with mail in ballot signature is check against registration signature before being counted. Some older voters who’s signature changes over time have to come in to recorders office and confirm signature.

    asset (b46007)

  475. One easy way to improve mail ballot security: have a Scantron-type PIN field on the envelope.

    Sam G (4e6c22)

  476. @477 somebodies upset!

    asset (b46007)

  477. @479 In Pennsylvania you have to sign the outside of the envelope to be counted as republican survey found out that more democrats then republicans forget to sign out side envelope.

    asset (b46007)

  478. I think that Trump’s insanity has advanced so far that it will make no difference to him whether he is actually elected President. No matter the outcome of the election, he will be THE REAL PRESIDENT, having won in a landslide.

    If he ever has brushes of lucidity, they will only extend to the subjunctive mood, claiming that he could and would have fixed the deficit, ended all the wars, permanently secured the border, and solved the Earth’s energy problems, if not stymied by RINOS, Deep State, Jack Smith, and judges “who hate Trump”.

    nk (40e396)

  479. Recordings describe 2020 Oval Office photo-op where Trump was briefed on fake electors and January 6
    ……..
    Over several hours of interviews last week, (Kenneth) Chesebro provided Michigan investigators with extraordinary details of how a legal memo he wrote for ((Jim Troupis, a former Dane County Circuit Court judge)) in Wisconsin transformed into a nationwide operation to overturn the results of a presidential election, according to the audio obtained by CNN.
    …………
    According to the audio, members of Nessel’s team peppered Chesebro with questions about senior Trump campaign operatives, and zeroed in on how they directed the fake electors in Michigan.

    Investigators asked about former Trump lawyer Rudy Giuliani, his ally and former NYPD commissioner Bernie Kerik, Trump campaign official Mike Roman, current Trump lawyer Boris Epshteyn, Trump 2020 campaign lawyers Matt Morgan and Justin Clark, and others.

    Chesebro said “it was very fluid,” but all of these players were involved.

    Michigan investigators asked Chesebro detailed questions, including: Who designed the fake certificates that the GOP electors signed? Who was responsible for recruiting the Michigan participants? How did the signed certificates get from Lansing to D.C.?

    He pointed investigators to Giuliani, who “was pushing the idea of alternate electors very strongly,” and said Kerik “handled a lot” of the organizational activity in Michigan. Roman was “really effective at carrying out operational matters,” Chesebro said, so he was picked to be the point-person to help with the “whipping” operation on a state-by-state basis.
    ………
    “It’s clear that Troupis personally, told the President there was zero hope for Wisconsin,” Chesebro recalled to the Michigan prosecutors. “Part of this message, I think, (was) crafted to try to get him to concede or just you know, give up this long shot challenge.”
    ………
    At Trump’s infamous speech on January 6, he told the crowd that “we won Wisconsin” and falsely claimed Democrats facilitated 91,000 “unlawful votes” via dropboxes and 170,000 “illegal” votes through mail-in ballots. Many of these same allegations were raised – and dismissed – in the lawsuit Troupis took to the Wisconsin Supreme Court.
    #########

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  480. @432 in 2016 hillary had a 20+ point lead over bernie sanders in michigan primary and lost election.

    asset (b46007) — 12/13/2023 @ 3:19 pm

    Reference to prior year elections are really irrelevant to 2023. No previous candidate really inspires the devotion of MAGA supporters for Donald Trump. The demographics are different, especially when comparisons are made with Democratic voters.

    Hillary didn’t “lose” the election in the 2016 Michigan primary. She came in second to Sanders (by 1.42%), but still received 63 delegates to Sanders’ 67. Hardly a blowout.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  481. Trump J6 trial delayed

    A federal judge on Wednesday put on hold all of the proceedings in former President Donald J. Trump’s trial on charges of plotting to overturn the 2020 election as his lawyers asked an appeals court to move slowly in considering his claim that he is immune from prosecution in the case.

    The separate but related moves were part of an ongoing struggle between Mr. Trump’s legal team and prosecutors working for the special counsel, Jack Smith, over the critical question of when the trial will actually be held. It is now scheduled to begin in Washington in March.

    On Wednesday morning, Mr. Trump’s lawyers asked the federal appeals court to avoid setting an expedited schedule as it considered whether to dismiss the election subversion charges based on the former president’s sweeping claims of executive immunity.

    In a 16-page filing that blended legal and political arguments, the lawyers asked a three-judge panel of the court not to move too quickly in mulling the question of immunity, saying that a “reckless rush to judgment” would “irreparably undermine public confidence in the judicial system.”

    “The manifest public interest lies in the court’s careful and deliberate consideration of these momentous issues with the utmost care and diligence,” wrote D. John Sauer, a lawyer who is handling the appeal for Mr. Trump.

    On Wednesday afternoon, the trial judge overseeing the election case, Tanya S. Chutkan, handed Mr. Trump a victory by suspending all “further proceedings that would move this case towards trial” until the appeal of the immunity issue is resolved.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  482. Kevin M (ed969f) — 12/13/2023 @ 4:18 pm

    That pretty much cinches it that the trial won’t happen until summer 2024 (during the convention). Great split screen; the convention nominating Trump while he exits the courthouse.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  483. Only if SCOTUS takes a long time to decide. Otherwise there’s no reason a trial cannot proceed as planned.

    SamG (4e6c22)

  484. @481 it’d still be more secure. As you noted: signatures change over time, and a PIN set during registration just makes sense

    SamG (4e6c22)

  485. Justices to Decide Scope of Obstruction Charge Central to Trump’s Jan. 6 Case
    ………
    At issue is whether the government can charge defendants in the cases under a federal law that makes it a crime to corruptly obstruct an official proceeding. The law is at the heart of the prosecutions of many members of the pro-Trump mob that sought to block the congressional certification of Joseph R. Biden Jr.’s victory in 2020. It is also a key part of the federal indictment accusing Mr. Trump of plotting to remain in power despite the will of the voters.

    ………The Supreme Court’s ultimate ruling, which may not arrive until June, is likely to address the viability of two of the main counts against Mr. Trump. And it could severely hamper efforts by the special counsel, Jack Smith, to hold the former president accountable for the violence of his supporters at the Capitol.

    The court’s eventual decision could also invalidate convictions that have already been secured against scores of Mr. Trump’s followers who took part in the assault. That would be an enormous blow to the government’s prosecutions of the Jan. 6 riot cases.
    ………
    Two of the four counts in the federal election interference indictment against Mr. Trump are based on the obstruction charge. He has been accused of personally obstructing the certification proceeding at the Capitol on Jan. 6 and faces a separate count of conspiring with others to obstruct the proceeding.

    The Supreme Court’s review, while potentially damaging to the indictment, would not affect the other two charges against Mr. Trump. ……
    …….

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  486. Only if SCOTUS takes a long time to decide. Otherwise there’s no reason a trial cannot proceed as planned.

    SamG (4e6c22) — 12/13/2023 @ 4:26 pm

    Given the news above, it is highly unlikely that the election interference trial would proceed before the Supreme Court has ruled on the obstruction charge.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  487. The perfect gift for your Trumpist relative.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  488. @481 it’d still be more secure. As you noted: signatures change over time, and a PIN set during registration just makes sense

    Everyone would use 1234

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  489. that more democrats then republicans forget to sign out side envelope

    Clearly this means that Republicans are smarter. There are lots of ways to do this better, but as long as we insist on coddling the technologically-declined we are stuck with these 19th century methods.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  490. Best method I’ve heard to validate the vote without imposing additional technology is to use banks and their teller machines. You get mailed a paper with a QR code, and take it and your picture ID to a voting machine at your bank or at an official voting site. The code gets you the proper ballot and you and your ID are photographed and the ID is matched against the code.

    Then you vote. Once.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  491. Banks are involved because they know how to make this crap work.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  492. @477 nk I forgot to ask where you get one? I also need a Hailie Deegan one. She is my little race girl who is going to be the first woman to win a nascar cup race as she has already won 3 nascar races in lower series.

    asset (baf8e0)

  493. Of course it’s playing with fire with Trump.

    We’re on F’n fire NOW with Biden administration and the current crop of Democrat leadership.

    What does that say about Democrats?

    whembly (5f7596) — 12/13/2023 @ 1:57 pm

    Trump is going to pose a Constitutional crisis with his convictions / self pardons / ignoring state AGs / and probably even ignoring the Supreme Court.

    A Constitutional crisis is a bigger fire than anything Biden is doing.

    norcal (2a0769)

  494. “I don’t care who leads the Republican primary polls”

    Are you sure about that? It does seem to be your thing.

    AJ_Liberty (d031c1)

  495. The circuit court has already accepted an expedited appeal re the immunity issue – and due to the Trump legal team’s complaint about their response due date of 12/26 it’s been set for 12/23.

    DOJ on 12/30, Trump reply on 1/2.

    SamG (4e6c22)

  496. A self-pardon is obviously not going to fly, if you read the Founder’s discussions about pardons and reservations about a criminal executive pardoning people. If they had even once considered a “self-pardon” they would have left the power with the Senate.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  497. DOJ on 12/30, Trump reply on 1/2.

    Given that, I see no reason why the judge cannot restart her proceedings.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  498. A self-pardon is obviously not going to fly, if you read the Founder’s discussions about pardons and reservations about a criminal executive pardoning people.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 12/13/2023 @ 10:05 pm

    My concern is that if the Supreme Court rules against Trump regarding a self-pardon, or anything else for that matter, he will just ignore the Court’s ruling. If he can ignore election results and summon mobs, he can ignore the Supreme Court. I don’t want to see a showdown like that.

    norcal (909c7b)

  499. I think this is probably a poll with slanted questions. Others would be family members.

    What’s the situation in places that case all votes by mail?

    Sammy Finkelman (c2c77e) — 12/13/2023 @ 11:57 am

    Filling out a family member’s ballot is still illegal. Try again.

    NJRob (bd6253)

  500. Filling out a family member’s ballot is still illegal. Try again.

    Since Sammy hasn’t, I will. Try again.

    Filling out a family member’s ballot, your family’s or anybody else’s family’s, is not illegal. Your local rules may require you to disclose that it was with assistance, identify the assistant, and have him sign something.

    I have assisted a family member with voting and I have seen volunteers at my precinct assist others. Fill out a ballot, put in an envelop, drop in a box (early) voting, as well as two in a booth, fill out ballot, hand to election judge voting.

    nk (1ab1f5)

  501. @473

    whembly (5f7596) — 12/13/2023 @ 3:08 pm

    As I suspected; but why would you need to convince people after Trump was re-elected?

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 12/13/2023 @ 3:12 pm

    I wasn’t talking about post-General election. I was talking about during the General election.

    Polls, imo, are mercurial and can flux quite a bit. The outcome is not written in granite, no matter what the polls says.

    whembly (5f7596)

  502. Polls measure sentiment at the time of the response. Anyone that says otherwise is mistaken/lying.

    Usually phrase the questions as “if the election was held today” or “if you intend to vote who do you intend to vote for…l

    They can ask questions about how firm your opinion is…but new info/events can change things.

    That said Trump is clearly the most popular primary candidate today.

    Time123 (c29514)

  503. @495

    Banks are involved because they know how to make this crap work.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 12/13/2023 @ 5:52 pm

    I bring this up every now again and remain perplex why people don’t respond enthusiastically to this idea.

    Use the existing ATM/teller machines to accept/process votes.

    Most states has State IDs that the ATM machines can read to identify the person. The voting registration department can facility voting communication, education and provide a voting-year specific PIN number.

    Then, go to any ATM machine during voting period and cast your vote.

    If we trust the “system” to handle our money accurately, what’s the opposition to leverage this “system” to handle our vote?

    whembly (5f7596)

  504. @497

    Trump is going to pose a Constitutional crisis with his convictions / self pardons / ignoring state AGs / and probably even ignoring the Supreme Court.

    Objection, calls for fact not in evidence.

    A Constitutional crisis is a bigger fire than anything Biden is doing.

    norcal (2a0769) — 12/13/2023 @ 6:43 pm

    Well… * takes a loooong drag of my cig * that’s like… your opinion maaaaan.

    I think it’d be more of the same of his 1st team, and since he’d be a lame duck…even more neutered.

    I’ll take a neutered Trump over Biden administration.

    Would rather it be Haley or DeSantis though.

    whembly (5f7596)

  505. @500

    A self-pardon is obviously not going to fly, if you read the Founder’s discussions about pardons and reservations about a criminal executive pardoning people. If they had even once considered a “self-pardon” they would have left the power with the Senate.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 12/13/2023 @ 10:05 pm

    Kev, the various founders did consider whether or not POTUS may self-pardon himself.

    And, in the end, chosen NOT to limit it in the founding documents.

    That’s because they viewed Congress’ impeachment powers as enough “check” against an abusive President.

    whembly (5f7596)

  506. @502

    A self-pardon is obviously not going to fly, if you read the Founder’s discussions about pardons and reservations about a criminal executive pardoning people.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 12/13/2023 @ 10:05 pm

    My concern is that if the Supreme Court rules against Trump regarding a self-pardon, or anything else for that matter, he will just ignore the Court’s ruling. If he can ignore election results and summon mobs, he can ignore the Supreme Court. I don’t want to see a showdown like that.

    norcal (909c7b) — 12/13/2023 @ 10:25 pm

    Seriously doubt SCOTUS would intervene as, the plaintiff would need to have standing.

    Who would have standing?

    Furthermore, it’s widely understood that the POTUS’ pardon powers over federal crimes are plenary, so the courts could deem that as “non-justiciable”.

    whembly (5f7596)

  507. Our entire Constitution was infused with checks and balances, so it makes no sense that any person under law gets to be the judge in his own case.
    For the reasons here, I think Supreme Court would strike down a self-pardon.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  508. @511

    Our entire Constitution was infused with checks and balances, so it makes no sense that any person under law gets to be the judge in his own case.
    For the reasons here, I think Supreme Court would strike down a self-pardon.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d) — 12/14/2023 @ 8:07 am

    I’m familiar with that article.

    I don’t think SCOTUS would even take it up because there’s no clear limiting factor (pardoning federal crimes). Nevermind the standing issues with such a case.

    The best way to reign this idea is, imo, is either a Constitution amendment expressly forbidding that (doubtful), or Congress voraciously impeaches and removed the president.

    whembly (5f7596)

  509. Polls, imo, are mercurial and can flux quite a bit. The outcome is not written in granite, no matter what the polls says.

    whembly (5f7596) — 12/14/2023 @ 7:34 am

    Trump’s polling in the Republican primary race has been remarkably consistent since at least April/May 2023, at both the national level (where DeSantis is about to fall into third place) and in Iowa and New Hampshire (where DeSantis is in fourth place). They haven’t been “mercurial” at all.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  510. Our entire Constitution was infused with checks and balances, so it makes no sense that any person under law gets to be the judge in his own case.

    For the reasons here, I think Supreme Court would strike down a self-pardon.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d) — 12/14/2023 @ 8:07 am

    Who would have standing to challenge a self-pardon? That is not discussed in the linked article.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  511. Who would have standing to challenge a self-pardon?

    The prison guards’ union?

    Just kidding. Well, no, not really. I’m not an expert on qui tam law, but private individuals can bring actions on behalf of the government, when the DOJ does not.

    nk (1ab1f5)

  512. Standing: how about his federal jury, the judge, the prosecutor. All have problems, but the SC will want to weigh in. They will find an argument to take it. The idea that “Trump’s Justices” will protect him is laughable. They have their position; they don’t need him.

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  513. Private individuals would need to show that they “”suffered an “injury in fact.” This means the injury must have been caused in some way by the actions of the defendant, and the court must be able to provide a form of redress.” An individual would need to show that they had a personal stake in the outcome, not “when all they can claim is that they have an interest or have suffered an injury that is shared by all members of the public.”

    Source

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  514. Standing: how about his federal jury, the judge, the prosecutor.

    Ridiculous. On what grounds could they challenge a self-pardon? They will not have been personally injured if Trump pardons himself. Such a challenge will be dismissed out of hand.

    Whembly is right-the only constitutional response would be impeachment and removal from office, but I doubt the House would impeach, or the Senate convict. Even if the Republicans take control of the Senate, there won’t be 66 votes to remove Trump from office.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  515. @516

    Standing: how about his federal jury, the judge, the prosecutor. All have problems, but the SC will want to weigh in. They will find an argument to take it. The idea that “Trump’s Justices” will protect him is laughable. They have their position; they don’t need him.

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3) — 12/14/2023 @ 9:00 am

    What is the federal crime a hypothetical POTUS is breaking when pardoning him/herself?

    Start there.

    Then, embrace the idea that not ALL BAD ACTS are in fact penal crimes. In fact, many bad acts are simply moral fails. Or, even political failings.

    To me, a self-pardoning is an outrageous political act of abuse that an Impeachment & Removal is the most appropriate mechanism for prosecution and future deterrence.

    whembly (5f7596)

  516. See Dick run. See Jane run.

    The government is not “all members of the public”. It is The Government.

    A qui tam action vindicates a governmental interest, not a general public interest, and there is a valid governmental interest in enforcing the criminal laws of the United States.

    I am not saying that it’s cut and dried. But there are private actions to enforce EPA rules and even to collect taxes, that are not barred by an elementary understanding of “Cases and Controversies”.

    nk (1ab1f5)

  517. @511 “Our entire Constitution was infused with checks and balances, so it makes no sense that any person under law gets to be the judge in his own case.”

    A Constitution inundated with safeguards against prosecutorial overreach, as our Constitution is, would absolutely allow a president elected by the people to pardon himself. And, if you prefer, pardon his son.

    lloyd (ba10a3)

  518. I don’t want to see a showdown like that.

    If he’s elected, I see no hope for avoiding it. Acquiescing is worse. If it takes the US Marine Corps to pry him out of the WH, so be it.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  519. I have assisted a family member with voting

    As have I. But I will note that assisted living homes and such are rife with children voting their parents ballots with little attention to their parent’s desires. It’s too easy and integrity is not.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  520. Kev, the various founders did consider whether or not POTUS may self-pardon himself.

    Please give me a link. Their deliberations were published, and there are also the Federalist Papers. Either the Paper #, or the date of the discussion at the Convention, will do.

    I have repeated searched for that. There was long debate over whether placing the pardon power in the Executive was better than placing it in the Legislature. There were people who so disliked that a President could pardon his thugs that they walked out, but no mention was made of him pardoning himself.

    Prove me wrong.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  521. And, in the end, chosen NOT to limit it in the founding documents.

    The question was about having an exception for treason, not self-pardons.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  522. Seriously doubt SCOTUS would intervene as, the plaintiff would need to have standing.

    Who would have standing?

    Jack Smith.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  523. The point being is that the SC would want to make a ruling and would find a way. If they dismissed on standing, they had better be unanimous.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  524. @525

    And, in the end, chosen NOT to limit it in the founding documents.

    The question was about having an exception for treason, not self-pardons.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 12/14/2023 @ 10:52 am

    IF you’re referring to what I believe was Edmund Randolph’s warnings, yes you’re right, but c’mon guys use common sense. The founders were well aware that POTUS “would” have the power to pardon himself in the context of these debates, and that at ANY TIME, they could’ve added more restrictions than already discussed.

    whembly (5f7596)

  525. @526

    Jack Smith.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 12/14/2023 @ 10:54 am

    You’re going to have to elaborate on this… I don’t see the connection.

    @527

    The point being is that the SC would want to make a ruling and would find a way. If they dismissed on standing, they had better be unanimous.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 12/14/2023 @ 10:58 am

    Why?

    whembly (5f7596)

  526. @ Kevin M (ed969f) — 12/14/2023 @ 10:49 am
    https://teachingamericanhistory.org/document/gerry-mason-and-randolph-decline-to-sign-the-constitution/

    I’ve bounced around this site, please, you do the research yourself.

    whembly (5f7596)

  527. I have assisted a family member with voting and I have seen volunteers at my precinct assist others. Fill out a ballot, put in an envelop, drop in a box (early) voting, as well as two in a booth, fill out ballot, hand to election judge voting.

    nk (1ab1f5) — 12/14/2023 @ 7:09 am

    Words not used in the discussion for $100 Alex.

    You were not filling out the ballot.

    NJRob (f45fe5)

  528. @ Kevin M (ed969f) — 12/14/2023 @ 10:49 am
    After quick search, you can narrow it down to Federalist Nos. 69 and 74.

    whembly (5f7596)

  529. whembly (5f7596) — 12/14/2023 @ 7:41

    If we trust the “system” to handle our money accurately, what’s the opposition to leverage this “system” to handle our vote?

    what an atM does is not secret, and a person can give his card to somebody else or ee=ven create an authorized user.

    You could deposit $1 or $5 into a bank account or mail a check for every vote, and that wouklld prevent somebody having their vote stolen.

    Sammy Finkelman (c2c77e)

  530. I’ve bounced around this site, please, you do the research yourself.

    Your the one that made the claim. Now you tell me to do the research to disprove you? [rude words deleted]

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  531. But I see nothing new in the link you posted — it’s a subset of the discussions in Farrand’s Records.

    The pardon power was controversial, particularly regarding treason, but also in concentrating it in the hands of the Executive it could be misused by a criminal president to pardon his minions. But NOWHERE was a self-pardon discussed and had they thought it possible they probably would have gone with the Senate-vote alternative.

    Historically, going back to Britain, there had never been such an attempt and even schemers like Elbridge Gerry (who also left without signing) didn’t think of it.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  532. Presidential self-pardon is the twin brother of Presidential immunity and their sister is Article I, Section 3, Clause 7:

    Judgment in Cases of Impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from Office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any Office of honor, Trust or Profit under the United States: but the Party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to Indictment, Trial, Judgment and Punishment, according to Law.

    So I read all that as saying that the President can neither avoid prosecution nor pardon himself.

    nk (1ab1f5)

  533. @537 “but the Party convicted” means impeachment happens first, rendering the pardon power moot.

    The Founders gave deference to the will of the people, and this is no different.

    lloyd (a6b452)

  534. So I read all that as saying that the President can neither avoid prosecution nor pardon himself.

    nk (1ab1f5) — 12/14/2023 @ 12:45 pm

    Article II, Section 2, Clause 1:

    The President shall ……. have Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offences against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment.

    There are only two limitations to the President’s pardon power: offenses against the United States, meaning only federal crimes, and cases of impeachment.

    The (Supreme) Court wrote (in Schick v. Reed 1974) that the broad power conferred in the Constitution gives the President plenary authority to ‘forgive’ [a] convicted person in part or entirely, to reduce a penalty in terms of a specified number of years, or to alter it with certain conditions.
    ……….
    Congress generally cannot substantively constrain the President’s pardon authority through legislation, as the Court has held that the power of the President is not subject to legislative control. Congress can neither limit the effect of his pardon, nor exclude from its exercise any class of offenders. The benign prerogative of mercy reposed in him cannot be fettered by any legislative restrictions. (see Ex Parte Garland 1866).

    Historically:

    There was little debate at the Constitutional Convention of the pardon power, though several exceptions and limitations were proposed. Edmund Randolph proposed reincorporating an exception for cases of treason, arguing that extending pardon authority to such cases “was too great a trust,” that the President may himself be guilty, and that the “Traytors may be his own instruments.” George Mason likewise argued that treason should be excepted for fear that the President could otherwise “frequently pardon crimes which were advised by himself” to “stop inquiry and prevent detection,” eventually “establish[ing] a monarchy, and destroy[ing] the republic.” James Wilson responded to such arguments by pointing out that if the President were himself involved in treasonous conduct, he could be impeached…….

    Footnotes omitted.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  535. Where’s Scalia when we need him?

    Or, that it was a safeguard against the English writs of attainder (criminal conviction and criminal penalties imposed by a legislative body) and, simultaneously, foreclosure of a claim of double jeopardy.

    nk (1ab1f5)

  536. My 540 was to lloyd’s 538.

    nk (1ab1f5)

  537. @534

    I’ve bounced around this site, please, you do the research yourself.

    Your the one that made the claim. Now you tell me to do the research to disprove you? [rude words deleted]

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 12/14/2023 @ 12:32 pm

    Demanding exacting citation because you don’t like how it undermines your position isn’t going to get you far Kev.

    @536

    But I see nothing new in the link you posted — it’s a subset of the discussions in Farrand’s Records.

    The pardon power was controversial, particularly regarding treason, but also in concentrating it in the hands of the Executive it could be misused by a criminal president to pardon his minions. But NOWHERE was a self-pardon discussed and had they thought it possible they probably would have gone with the Senate-vote alternative.

    Historically, going back to Britain, there had never been such an attempt and even schemers like Elbridge Gerry (who also left without signing) didn’t think of it.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 12/14/2023 @ 12:40 pm

    Kevin, I’m going to try to be as charitable as possible here.

    This has never been tested by the judiciary, so you and I don’t know for sure what’s going to happen.

    But to say that self-pardons, itself a corrupt act mind you, was never discussed as a possibility by our founding founders is simply myopic.

    There are oodles of analysis, papers and studies about this very subject and I will spend “some” of my time to try to point out, that yes, self-corrupt dealings by POTUS with respect to pardon powers were debated:
    https://arizonastatelawjournal.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Eckstein-Colby-Final.pdf

    James Iredell,
    later a Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court and a proponent of a strong
    executive pardon power, argued as a delegate at the North Carolina ratifying
    convention that the power should be placed with the Executive Branch—the
    body “possessing the highest confidence of the people.”63 Iredell addressed
    the critics’ arguments that the President might abuse the pardon power to
    obscure his guilt in criminal conduct by stating that it is irrational to argue
    that it should not exist just because some Presidents may try to abuse it.64
    Iredell argued that “[w]hen a power is acknowledged to be necessary, it is a
    very dangerous thing to prescribe limits to it.”65 Iredell’s view was similar to
    Alexander Hamilton’s—that the President’s restraint upon abusing of the
    pardon power was the risk of tarnishing his reputation.66

    Paul posted a link from AEI article supposings that POTUS could not self pardon, but here’s an AEI article where he could:
    https://www.aei.org/articles/trump-has-the-power-to-pardon-himself-but-that-could-get-him-impeached/


    Randolph argued that “the prerogative of pardon in these cases was too great a trust. The President may himself be guilty. The Traytors may be his own instruments.”

    James Wilson responded: “Pardon is necessary for cases of treason, and is best placed in the hands of the Executive.” Wilson, however, suggested that a president could still be prosecuted for treason. “If he be himself a party to the guilt he can be impeached and prosecuted.” Randolph’s motion lost by 8 states to 2.

    In publicly responding to Randolph’s claim when the Constitution went to the states for ratification, Hamilton provided a second, broader justification for the pardon power and rejected limits on its self-dealing use.

    So, to recap, YES our founding founders discuss scenarios that an abusive POTUS, in naked self-dealing, may be able to self-pardon. And that, public perception and the impeachment process would be a sufficient backstop against a hypothetical abusive pardons.

    Is that enough citation for you?

    Why are you so agitated about this?

    whembly (5f7596)

  538. Seriously doubt SCOTUS would intervene as, the plaintiff would need to have standing.

    Who would have standing?

    Jack Smith.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 12/14/2023 @ 10:54 am

    No, he wouldn’t. Smith would need to show that he “”suffered an “injury in fact.” This means the injury must have been caused in some way by the actions of the defendant, and the court must be able to provide a form of redress.” He would need to show that he had a personal stake in the outcome, not “when all they can claim is that they have an interest or have suffered an injury that is shared by all members of the public.”

    Smith would not suffer a personal injury by a Trump self-pardon, nor could he sue on behalf of the public.

    See here.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  539. The Founders gave deference to the will of the people, and this is no different.

    Find something — ANYTHING — that suggests that a president can pardon himself. Other than some musings from Trump partisans.

    If such a power existed it would make all post-impeachment prosecution impossible because even a VERY stupid president would pardon himself during any Senate vote he might lose.

    So, nk’s point is quite apt.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  540. @544

    The Founders gave deference to the will of the people, and this is no different.

    Find something — ANYTHING — that suggests that a president can pardon himself. Other than some musings from Trump partisans.

    Please point out in Article II, Section 2, Clause 1 of the Constitution where he cannot.

    Now I’m demanding an explicit citation.

    Or, you can admit that you have a different opinion.

    Up to you.

    If such a power existed it would make all post-impeachment prosecution impossible because even a VERY stupid president would pardon himself during any Senate vote he might lose.

    So, nk’s point is quite apt.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 12/14/2023 @ 1:17 pm

    Except the pardon powers is expressly prohibited for impeachment.

    How are you missing this?

    whembly (5f7596)

  541. Find something — ANYTHING — that suggests that a president can pardon himself. Other than some musings from Trump partisans.

    If such a power existed it would make all post-impeachment prosecution impossible because even a VERY stupid president would pardon himself during any Senate vote he might lose.

    So, nk’s point is quite apt.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 12/14/2023 @ 1:17 pm

    The absence of an explicit bar to presidential self-pardons in the Constitution suggests it would be permissible. Again, how could it be challenged in the courts, given that no one would suffer a particularized harm by a self-pardon by Trump to create standing? You are correct that it would make post-impeachment prosecution impossible, but that’s just the way our system would work. Nk’s point may be apt, but it is constitutionally incorrect.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  542. A President, foreseeing that he would lose in the Senate and be removed from office, would pardon himself preemptively to at least avoid criminal prosecution.

    nk (1ab1f5)

  543. nk (1ab1f5) — 12/14/2023 @ 1:36 pm

    If a president is elected as a convicted federal felon, he would pardon himself whether or not he faced impeachment.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  544. @544 “If such a power existed it would make all post-impeachment prosecution impossible because even a VERY stupid president would pardon himself during any Senate vote he might lose.”

    Pardoning himself before being indicted would a clever trick for any president. If you think the Constitution was written with deference given to prosecutors, you have a lot more work to do. Impeach first, then indict, judge and punish, just as it says.

    lloyd (a6b452)

  545. @547 nk (1ab1f5) — 12/14/2023 @ 1:36 pm
    Okay, I see what you and Kevin are saying.

    Yes, a POTUS could theoretically pardon himself to avoid prosecution after being removed from office.

    whembly (5f7596)

  546. @550 well… technically, he’d have to do it right before the Senate votes to remove him from office, but I hope you got my drift.

    whembly (5f7596)

  547. If the indictment happened before being elected president, then the people have spoken. They apparently didn’t think much of the indictment or conviction. Too bad prosecutors don’t rule the world.

    lloyd (a6b452)

  548. I had a long long post and it was eaten by my internet going down. The gist of it is that there was CONSIDERABLE discussion over several months at the Convention regarding the pardon power.

    In June, mid-August and mid-September the brought it up and hashed and rehashed several problems. All information from Farrand, volumes 1 & 2.

    The initial reading (June 18th & 19th) had a treason exception.

    In late July, the “Committee of Detail” returned a version that had dropped the treason exception and added the impeachment exception.

    On August 25th, it was proposed that pardons would require the consent of the Senate, but that was rejected 8-1.

    On August 27th, the issue of limiting pardons to follow conviction came up, but was withdrawn (clearly showing that permitting pardons prior to conviction was intended)

    On September 10th, Mr Randolph took the floor to argue several points:

    Mr. Randolph took this opportunity to state his objections to the System. They turned on the Senate’s being made the Court of Impeachment for trying the Executive — on the necessity of ¾ instead of ⅔ of each house to overrule the negative of the President — on the smallness of the number of the Representative branch, — on the want of limitation to a standing army — on the general clause concerning necessary and proper laws — on the want of some particular restraint on Navigation acts — on the power to lay duties on exports — on the Authority of the general Legislature to interpose [564] on the application of the Executives of the States — on the want of a more definite boundary between the General & State Legislatures — and between the General and State Judiciaries — on the the unqualified power of the President to pardon treasons — on the want of some limit to the power of the Legislature in regulating their own compensations.

    Again the pardon power is a problem. I note the small size of the House was a concern even then.

    On September 15th, Randolph was back at it:

    Mr Randolph moved to “except cases of treason”. The prerogative of pardon in these cases was too great a trust. The President may himself be guilty. The Traytors may be his own instruments.

    Col Mason supported the motion.

    Mr Govr Morris had rather there should be no pardon for treason, than let the power devolve on the Legislature.

    Mr Wilson. Pardon is necessary for cases of treason, and is best placed in the hands of the Executive. If he be himself a party to the guilt he can be impeached and prosecuted.

    This last bit is instructive as it makes utterly no sense if a self-pardon was even considered.

    They went on:

    Mr. King thought it would be inconsistent with the Constitutional separation of the Executive & Legislative powers to let the prerogative be exercised by the latter — A Legislative body is utterly unfit for the purpose. They are governed too much by the passions of the moment. In Massachusetts, one assembly would have hung all the insurgents in that State: the next was equally disposed to pardon them all. He suggested the expedient of requiring the concurrence of the Senate in Acts of Pardon.

    Mr. Madison admitted the force of objections to the Legislature, but the pardon of treasons was so peculiarly improper for the President that he should acquiesce in the transfer of it to the former, rather than leave it altogether in the hands of the latter. He would prefer to either an association of the Senate as a Council of advice, with the President.

    Mr Randolph could not admit the Senate into a share of the Power. the great danger to liberty lay in a combination between the President & that body —

    Col: Mason. The Senate has already too much power — There can be no danger of too much lenity in legislative pardons, as the Senate must con concur, & the President moreover can require ⅔ of both Houses

    Mr Randolph’s motion was not agreed to and he did not sign the resulting document for reasons he had previously stated.

    Kevin M (034d52)

  549. Pardoning himself before being indicted would a clever trick for any president.

    That assumes he knows he has committed a crime before he leaves office (Presidents cannot be indicted while in office).

    For instance, the Court has indicated that the power may be exercised at any time after [an offense’s] commission, reflecting that the President may not preemptively immunize future criminal conduct. (Ex Parte Garland 1866)

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  550. And I’ll excerpt this point out from my last:

    Mr Wilson. Pardon is necessary for cases of treason, and is best placed in the hands of the Executive. If he be himself a party to the guilt he can be impeached and prosecuted.

    This last bit is instructive as it makes utterly no sense if a self-pardon was even considered.

    Kevin M (034d52)

  551. Pardoning himself before being indicted would a clever trick for any president.

    Nixon was pardoned before he was indicted. Why didn’t he self-pardon just before resigning?

    Kevin M (034d52)

  552. Why doesn’t EVERY president self-pardon on the morning of his last day in office?

    Kevin M (034d52)

  553. Nixon was pardoned before he was indicted. Why didn’t he self-pardon just before resigning?

    Kevin M (034d52) — 12/14/2023 @ 2:06 pm

    Nixon was never indicted; he was named as an “unindicted co-conspirator.”

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  554. @558: Unresponsive and immaterial.

    Kevin M (034d52)

  555. Nixon was never indicted; he was named as an “unindicted co-conspirator.”

    No one is indicted for an offense they have already been pardoned for. Ford gave him a blanket pardon. Nixon, in theory, could have given himself a blanket pardon as he boarded the helicopter.

    Kevin M (034d52)

  556. @558: Unresponsive and immaterial.

    Kevin M (034d52) — 12/14/2023 @ 2:12 pm

    You are the one who said:

    Nixon was pardoned before he was indicted. Why didn’t he self-pardon just before resigning?

    Kevin M (034d52) — 12/14/2023 @ 2:06 pm

    And as said, Nixon was never indicted. It’s “unresponsive and immaterial” only because you have the facts wrong.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  557. Ford gave him a blanket pardon.

    Which was a mistake. The Justice Department should have filed their draft indictment of Nixon, but the pardon prevented it. Nixon got off scott free.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  558. Biden halts sale of 20,000 assault rifles to Israeli settlers. They will have to use other weapons to murder west bank palestinians when stealing their land.

    asset (09d958)

  559. The problem with the standing question is that Trump can bypass it by stepping down via the 25th amendment and allowing his elevated lackey VP to pardon him instead. It really comes down to the people not voting for someone who will likely need a pardon….and then might not escape state felony charges. The Constitution only works for an electorate that is not corrupt. Right now, we’re looking to test that. Trump deserves his due process and day(s) in court. Evidence and argument should win out.

    The current standing precedent CAN be set aside or modified by the Court. It’s not intended to be a straight jacket that prevents consideration of highly unusual cases. Little has been written by scholars on the current standing topic other than it will be difficult under current precedent. It’s further complicated by the above end run that the Court obviously recognizes. Play with fire….this is how things you value burn. No way will independents elect a felon.

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  560. Nixon had to testify truthfully regarding others who were charged, and he did. He could not plead the 5th, and he couldn’t be pardoned for future perjury.

    Kevin M (034d52)

  561. The problem with the standing question is that Trump can bypass it by stepping down via the 25th amendment and allowing his elevated lackey VP to pardon him instead.

    Yes, although Congress could plug that hole by creating a “Commission on Presidential Fitness” to take over from the Cabinet.

    Kevin M (034d52)

  562. @540 Burning in hell.

    asset (09d958)

  563. Why didn’t he self-pardon just before resigning?

    It was unresponsive since you ignored the operative part of the post, above.

    Kevin M (034d52)

  564. Nixon, after being told by House and Senate Republicans — yes, really, Republicans — that he would be impeached and removed, went away quietly. He was a patriot who did not want more turmoil in the country.

    Trump is not a patriot. He is Putin’s retribution on America for the collapse of the Soviet Union.

    All these legalistics we are kicking around won’t be worth a whit if he is elected.

    All the pezzonovantes in the country will be looking to keep things running smoothly. To avoid a civil war. To avoid the breakup of America. If for no other reason than that America has been very, very good to them.

    So they will let Trump be sworn in, and put on dog and pony shows for their constituencies, and let time deal with Trump, praying that he does not bulldoze them out of their comfort zones in some way or other before it does.

    nk (5427e4)

  565. And as said, Nixon was never indicted. It’s “unresponsive and immaterial” only because you have the facts wrong.

    You also cannot parse a simple English sentence. “Pardoned before he was indicted” does not mean he was indicted, but that he was pardoned before there was any indictment.

    I had left it to the reader to realize that indicting someone after they are pardoned never happens. I guess I needed to spell that out.

    Kevin M (034d52)

  566. He is Putin’s retribution on America for the collapse of the Soviet Union.

    Putin did not create Trump. Trump is a spoiled rich brat that does what he wants. Trump does not consider what Putin wants, any more than he considers what Melania wants.

    Kevin M (034d52)

  567. @513 the difference between trumpsters and never trumpers is in their different delusions. Both have trump derangement syndrome but different kinds. As one who sees both good and bad in trump I neither love him or hate him. If he wins it all ;but assures AOC the presidency as corporate establishment democrats will be completely discredited and the left takes over the party.

    asset (09d958)

  568. Kevin M (034d52) — 12/14/2023 @ 2:37 pm

    I realized my interpretive mistake when I posted about how Ford’s pardon was a mistake-he should have at least let Nixon be indicted befor pardoning.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  569. Michigan appeals court: Trump ‘must’ be on presidential primary ballot

    Donald Trump “must” appear on Michigan’s 2024 presidential primary ballot, the state Court of Appeals ruled Thursday, rejecting lawsuits seeking to disqualify the former president for an alleged violation of an insurrection clause in the U.S. Constitution.

    But Trump’s qualification for the general election ballot remains an open question because he has not yet won the Republican nomination, making it a “purely hypothetical” debate that courts cannot yet resolve, the three-judge panel wrote in a 21-page opinion upholding lower court orders.
    ……….
    ……..(W)hich candidates appear on the primary ballot is a decision ultimately left to political parties under Michigan law, the appeals court ruled Thursday, noting the Michigan Republican Party has already listed Trump as an eligible candidate.

    “The Secretary of State must place Trump on this ballot, regardless of whether he would be disqualified from holding office by the Insurrection Clause,” said the opinion from Judges Anica Letica, Michael Riordan and Thomas Cameron.
    ……….

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  570. @573: Sorry for being so pissy, Rip. I’m terribly frustrated with my bouncy internet today.

    Kevin M (034d52)

  571. “The Secretary of State must place Trump on this ballot, regardless of whether he would be disqualified from holding office by the Insurrection Clause,” said the opinion from Judges Anica Letica, Michael Riordan and Thomas Cameron.

    This is probably correct legally. But it portends a trainwreck if he is nominated.

    Kevin M (034d52)

  572. The insurrection clause comes up AFTER someone is elected. It could be before someone is sworn in.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  573. In presidential primaries, a satte may set its own rules, and aparty is free to use different ones. The Republican Party generally abides by state law.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  574. The insurrection clause comes up AFTER someone is elected. It could be before someone is sworn in.

    Please show your work. Particularly how a disqualified person gets on the ballot.

    Kevin M (034d52)

  575. 563.
    asset (09d958) — 12/14/2023 @ 2:27 pm

    Biden halts sale of 20,000 assault rifles to Israeli settlers. They will have to use other weapons to murder west bank palestinians when stealing their land.

    So you know that there’s been a series of (mostly failed) terrorist attacks on Israelis in the West Bank and Jerusalem since October 7, ranging from rock throwing, through automobile crashing, to something worse. There Israelis have been killed.

    https://www.israeltoday.co.il/read/over-1300-palestinian-terror-attacks-in-west-bank-since-october-7

    …Sharp rise in Palestinian violence almost completely ignored by Biden administration as it focuses on bogeyman of “Jewish extremism.”

    By Israel Today Staff | Dec 12, 2023 at 11:00 am

    …Data published by Channel 14 News on Monday shows that in the nine weeks since Hamas launched its cross-border attack from the Gaza Strip, an astonishing 1,388 attacks have been carried out by Palestinians in the disputed territories, including 569 cases of rock-throwing, 287 attacks with explosives, 143 Molotov cocktail assaults and 70 terrorist shootings.

    Three Israelis—a civilian, a soldier and a Border Police officer—have been murdered in Judea and Samaria since Oct. 7.

    In addition, at least 52 Israelis sustained injuries, according to Channel 14. The report said 16 people were wounded by rock-throwing, 10 sustained gunshot wounds, eight were violently attacked by Palestinians, and two were injured in a car-ramming attack.

    At least 15 members of the security forces were wounded during counterterrorism raids in Judea and Samaria, while one Israeli was moderately injured as he neutralized a Palestinian terrorist.

    In the first six months of 2023, Rescuers Without Borders (Hatzalah Judea and Samaria) recorded a total of 3,640 acts of terror throughout all of Israel. Palestinian terrorists killed 28 people and wounded 362 others between Jan. 1 and July 1, 2023, the emergency service said….

    And now there are plots in Europe.

    Sponsored no doubt by Iran but using Hamas members in Germany (where it is outlawed) – and a second independent plot in Denmark.

    https://www.newser.com/story/343886/germany-says-hamas-planned-attacks-in-europe.html

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  576. Sammy, asset has a point. The people settling the West Bank are pretty much Irgun types who see nothing wrong with running Arabs off their God-given land. The Arabs may attack some of them with rocks, but the settlers use machine guns, which are rather more effective.

    Anyone who goes to build a settlement in the middle of people who hate them is not well mentally.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  577. Iowa State University/Civiqs Poll 12/14/23

    The race for second place among Republican presidential nominees is tightening. That’s according to the latest Iowa State University/Civiqs poll, which surveyed registered voters from Dec. 8-13.

    Of the 438 participants who said they “definitely” or “probably” will attend the Iowa Republican Caucuses on Jan. 15, 2024, over half (54%) said their first pick is former president Donald Trump. This is consistent with results from November. Women and participants aged 50 years and up were more likely to select Trump as their top choice.

    Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis remains in second place as the Republican presidential nominee, but the gap with former U.N. Ambassador and South Carolina Gov. Nikki Haley has shrunk. DeSantis dropped from 18% to 17% between November and December while Haley grew from 12% to 15% as likely caucus-goers’ first pick.
    ……….
    “The big takeaway, aside from Trump’s sizeable lead, is that the other candidates are running out of time, and it doesn’t look like there’s a lot of potential for Iowans to change their mind going into January,” says Lucken Professor of Political Science Dave Peterson who organized the ISU/Civiqs poll.

    In the latest poll, almost three-quarters of the participants said their minds were made up regarding their first-choice candidate, compared to about half from the first wave of results in September.
    ………..

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  578. So what I am reading in today’s portion of this post is:

    1. If Trump is elected he cannot be prosecuted.
    2. He can pardon himself from any crimes that may or may have been committed.
    3. He would pardon himself.
    4. No one would have standing to stop him.
    5. Congress won’t impeach.
    6. Some people, even knowing that, will still vote for him because it’s better to have a lawless criminal who will do whatever he wants and no one can or will stop him than to have someone who they disagree with on policy questions.

    Anyone taken a seismic reading at Mt. Vernon lately?

    Nic (896fdf)

  579. @583

    So what I am reading in today’s portion of this post is:

    1. If Trump is elected he cannot be prosecuted.

    Multiple different administration’s Whitehouse counsel has argued that a sitting president cannot be indicted.

    Furthermore, POTUS can direct the DOJ to drop active prosecutions.

    2. He can pardon himself from any crimes that may or may have been committed.

    For federal crimes yes. There’s a debate about whether he could, but it appears the black letter of the law that he could.

    That’s a different question than…should he.

    3. He would pardon himself.

    Yeah, I think Trump would.

    4. No one would have standing to stop him.

    In court, it doesn’t look like it.

    5. Congress won’t impeach.

    Eh… I think it’s easier for the House to impeach. It’s a matter of whether or not the Senate would convict/remove.

    Even if Senate does not convict/remove… being a thrice impeached POTUS will historically make him infamous.

    6. Some people, even knowing that, will still vote for him because it’s better to have a lawless criminal who will do whatever he wants and no one can or will stop him than to have someone who they disagree with on policy questions.

    Project much?

    Maybe try writing a fiction? Looks like you might have some talent. 😉

    Anyone taken a seismic reading at Mt. Vernon lately?

    Nic (896fdf) — 12/14/2023 @ 6:33 pm

    That’s cute.

    whembly (4ad736)

  580. https://nypost.com/2023/12/14/news/harvard-forces-jewish-student-group-to-hide-menorah-at-night-for-fear-of-vandalism-rabbi-says/

    Harvard forces a Jewish student group to hide its menorah each night after its lighting over fears of vandalism that “won’t look good” for the Ivy League school, the rabbi of Harvard Chabad said.

    Keep supporting leftism.

    “On our campus in the shadow of Widener Library, we in the Jewish community are instructed, ‘We’ll let you have the menorah, you made your point, OK. Pack it up, don’t leave it out overnight because there will be criminal activity we fear and it won’t look good’,” Rabbi Hirschy Zarchi said at a Hanukkah lighting Wednesday night

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  581. @580 Oct.7 is the excuse the settlers use when they kill hundreds of west bank palestinians and steal their land. Didn’t give number of murdered palestinians killed by settler. Forget? What was their excuse for stealing palestinian land and killing the palestinian before oct. 7? If settlers kicked you out of where you live you might throw rocks too! How is stealing palestinian land on the west bank fighting Hamas terrorists who came from Gaza? Some of these land stealing religious zealots are exempt from their military draft. This was the deal netanyahu made with religious parties to stay in power.

    asset (2b4a4f)

  582. @585 I believe their are campus police who’s job is to protect and serve written on the sides of their police cars though they must have run out of paint where I live because they didn’t finish protect the wealthy and serve them. They must not watch cop shows on TV sting operations are all over them.

    asset (2b4a4f)

  583. @Whembly@584 What was incorrect here: “6. Some people, even knowing that, will still vote for him because it’s better to have a lawless criminal who will do whatever he wants and no one can or will stop him than to have someone who they disagree with on policy questions.”?

    Nic (896fdf)

  584. Anyone taken a seismic reading at Mt. Vernon lately?

    Wrap a few wires around George and we could solve the energy crisis. At least points 1-5 are wrong.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  585. Pardon himself?

    @555 is a mike drop.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  586. Biden’s spokes person just incriminated her boss for witness tampering. Yesterday she said president biden talked to hunter about not testifying before congress impeachment inquiry. That is witness tampering.

    asset (2b4a4f)

  587. Project much?

    Maybe try writing a fiction? Looks like you might have some talent. 😉

    Anyone taken a seismic reading at Mt. Vernon lately?

    Nic (896fdf) — 12/14/2023 @ 6:33 pm

    That’s cute.

    whembly (4ad736) — 12/14/2023 @ 9:02 pm

    You’re better than that, whembly. We had a respectful dialogue. You can do the same with Nic.

    norcal (c94f44)

  588. @588

    @Whembly@584 What was incorrect here: “6. Some people, even knowing that, will still vote for him because it’s better to have a lawless criminal who will do whatever he wants and no one can or will stop him than to have someone who they disagree with on policy questions.”?

    Nic (896fdf) — 12/14/2023 @ 9:53 pm

    Because you’re positing that Biden/Democrats is simply “someone who they disagree with on policy questions”.

    The things the Biden/Democrat has done these last few years has far exceeded that.

    whembly (5f7596)

  589. @592

    whembly (4ad736) — 12/14/2023 @ 9:02 pm

    You’re better than that, whembly. We had a respectful dialogue. You can do the same with Nic.

    norcal (c94f44) — 12/14/2023 @ 11:31 pm

    My tolerance waned here because I’ve routinely stated that I believe Biden/Democrats has far exceeded mere “policy differences”.

    So positing ” it’s better to have a lawless criminal who will do whatever he wants and no one can or will stop him than to have someone who they disagree with on policy questions” is legit an overwrought fear and is pushed to denigrate folks who’d vote differently.

    whembly (5f7596)

  590. My tolerance waned here because I’ve routinely stated that I believe Biden/Democrats has far exceeded mere “policy differences”.

    So positing ” it’s better to have a lawless criminal who will do whatever he wants and no one can or will stop him than to have someone who they disagree with on policy questions” is legit an overwrought fear and is pushed to denigrate folks who’d vote differently.

    whembly (5f7596) — 12/15/2023 @ 6:25 am

    It’s the usual leftist propaganda meant to scare I’ll informed moderates and squishy Republicans. No different than saying Romney “is going to put ya’ll back in chains” or Paul Ryan is going to “push grandma off a cliff.”

    The current favorite is always the awful boogeyman while the old candidates are now considered moderate and respectable.

    The line is tired, old and isn’t working anymore.

    NJRob (0218b2)

  591. Nic was being charitable. Not to Trump but definitely to his cult.

    “Let’s go Brandon!” is not policy differences. It’s visceral hatred because Biden toppled their idol. And they don’t want to be told that the gold and jewels are tinsel and paste.

    nk (5427e4)

  592. @596 nk (5427e4) — 12/15/2023 @ 8:19 am
    My visceral hatred towards Biden isn’t due to him beating Trump.

    It’s due to Biden and his administration’s absolute disastrous policies that may not ever be mitigated in our lifetime, or even ever.

    whembly (5f7596)

  593. @595

    It’s the usual leftist propaganda meant to scare I’ll informed moderates and squishy Republicans. No different than saying Romney “is going to put ya’ll back in chains” or Paul Ryan is going to “push grandma off a cliff.”

    The current favorite is always the awful boogeyman while the old candidates are now considered moderate and respectable.

    The line is tired, old and isn’t working anymore.

    NJRob (0218b2) — 12/15/2023 @ 7:57 am

    Yup. It’s not working.

    IDGAF about how important it is for our politician to be “well liked” or be “stately” or whatever “popularity contest” criterion folks want to advocate for.

    I used to…but, I recognize now that it’s playing by the Marquess of Queensberry Rules™.

    Politics is about what have you done for me lately. In short, it’s about power.

    What party do you want wielding that power?

    I’m absolutely, 100%, beyond the shadow of doubt sure, I do not want any Democrats.

    Now, you may continually dismiss me, thinking that I’m part of this “Trump cult”. I assure, I am not.

    What you really should be asking… is where are the good Democrat candidates? Where are the Democrats that I’d vote for over any GOP candidate, even if that includes Trump?

    Because Joe Biden, Kamala Harris, any Clintonite and any Obamaites are NOT any Democrats that I’d consider voting for, as they’re beholden to the extreme leftist/progressives/Marxist/Communist wing of their party.

    So, yes, if Trump’s the nominee, I’d vote for him in a heart beat and I’ll do the hard work in trying to convince my peers to ignore his issues by pointing out Democrats are far, far worse for our country.

    whembly (5f7596)

  594. And I believe you, whembly, because I share many of your views. Particularly this:

    What you really should be asking… is where are the good Democrat candidates? Where are the Democrats that I’d vote for over any GOP candidate, even if that includes Trump?

    I ask that constantly. And it fills me with weary despair that the only one I can name is my own governor, J. B. Pritzker, and he has decided to sit this one out.

    nk (5427e4)

  595. I was hoping Biden would bow out late summer. He clearly didn’t. I still hope that he might replace Harris with someone with more perception of competence…likely a governor. Intersectionality and diversity tends to hamstring this.

    I will have some problems with all of these suggestions on specific issues and with some on personality, but they would all be improvements over Biden: Roy Cooper, Andy Beshear, Mark Warner, Tim Kaine, Jared Polis, Gretchen Whitmer, and Gavin Newsom. There are no media superstars there…for sure…but I think you could find a moderate President in that field (so probably not Newsom) that people could stomach for 4 years.

    The political environment sucks right now…and we have to figure out ways to make it better. Both sides seem resistant to that.

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  596. @599

    And I believe you, whembly, because I share many of your views. Particularly this:

    What you really should be asking… is where are the good Democrat candidates? Where are the Democrats that I’d vote for over any GOP candidate, even if that includes Trump?

    I ask that constantly. And it fills me with weary despair that the only one I can name is my own governor, J. B. Pritzker, and he has decided to sit this one out.

    nk (5427e4) — 12/15/2023 @ 8:53 am

    Thanks for this nk…

    As for Pritzker, while I have some standard Republican v. Democrat policy differences, he seems like a potential Democrat I could vote over Trump. He doesn’t have my vote automatically, but I’m willing to keep my door open. My key attribute that I’d be lookin for is, is whether or not he can ignore the loud lefties in his party.

    whembly (5f7596)

  597. What you really should be asking… is where are the good Democrat candidates? Where are the Democrats that I’d vote for over any GOP candidate, even if that includes Trump?

    LOL!

    Rip Murdock (dc18a3)

  598. Where are the Democrats that I’d vote for over any GOP candidate, even if that includes Trump?

    They left the party after 1964.

    Rip Murdock (dc18a3)

  599. And became Republicans.

    Rip Murdock (dc18a3)

  600. where are the good Democrat candidates? Where are the Democrats that I’d vote for over any GOP candidate, even if that includes Trump?

    Less informed people assume there must be plenty of them.

    Would you believe,,,

    The disgraced Andrew Cuomo?? He might be an improvement over Biden.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  601. If it’s not a body double, recently sane John Fetterman might merit a look and his “Thomas Eagleton” issues out of the way and already in full view. He’s got a lot of the DSA types in full panic.

    https://triblive.com/local/regional/sen-john-fetterman-says-he-is-not-a-progressive/

    urbanleftbehind (b9b431) — 12/15/2023 @ 9:57 am

    urbanleftbehind (b9b431)

  602. I wonder if A. Cuomo ends up doing a full Blagojevich turn.

    urbanleftbehind (b9b431)

  603. Kevin M (ed969f) — 12/14/2023 @ 5:23 pm

    Sammy, asset has a point. The people settling the West Bank are pretty much Irgun types who see nothing wrong with running Arabs off their God-given land.

    The people setting up places in violation of Israeli law.

    The Arabs may attack some of them with rocks, but the settlers use machine guns, which are rather more effective.

    Machine guns?? Where did you hear this?

    There are trigger happy (or worse!) people.

    An Israeli reservist killed an Israeli who had rescued some people just then – he was a hero for doing something like that once before.

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/military-police-arrest-reservist-who-shot-hero-civilian-dead-at-terror-attack-scene

    Military Police arrests reservist who shot hero civilian dead at terror attack scene

    Staff Sgt. (res.) Aviad Frija questioned under caution and held for further interrogation for killing Yuval Castleman, who shot the perpetrators of Jerusalem attack

    …A reservist soldier suspected of killing a man he had apparently mistaken for a terrorist during a shooting attack in Jerusalem last week was arrested Monday by Military Police, the Israel Defense Forces said.

    Staff Sgt. (res.) Aviad Frija was one of two off-duty troops who responded to a terror attack at a Jerusalem bus stop on Thursday, shooting at the two assailants but also at Yuval Castleman, an armed civilian who had also opened fire first at the terrorists.

    Frija, who opened fire at Castleman after he had put his gun down and was holding his hands in the air, was questioned under caution on Sunday, and had his weapon taken away.

    The bus stop attack involved some Arabs firing at people waiting for the bus just as a bus stopped to let passengers off.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  604. By the way, a lot of land on the West Bank is not privately owned, due to an Ottoman Empire abandoned property law dating from the 1800s, when that whole area was getting depopulated, which declared that such land reverted to the government. It was maintained during he period of the British mandate and rule by Jordan – at least what had already passed into the hands of the state,

    Mark Twain wrote about the situation in 1867 in “The Innocents Abroad” (not the law, but he situation.

    So sometimes you have two groups of people trying to claim it. The Arabs claim title but may not have it. These things get resolved in court.

    Kevin:

    Anyone who goes to build a settlement in the middle of people who hate them is not well mentally.

    Netanyahu has to deal with people like this, but it is not so hard for him not to give them what they want..

    There are people who want Israeli sovereignty to be declared – mainly because no Jew can get to own state land on the West Bank, so there are lots of people living with insecure title – they only have 99 year leases.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  605. @urbanleftbehind

    a full Blagojevich turn.

    What’s that?

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  606. NJRob (0218b2) — 12/15/2023 @ 7:57 am

    No different than saying Romney “is going to put ya’ll back in chains” or Paul Ryan is going to “push grandma off a cliff.”

    Biden is making claims nowadays about abortion and about health insurance (not democracy etc but rather trying to scare people about things that nay matter to them personally)

    https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/27/us/politics/trump-biden-obamacare.html

    https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/04/us/politics/democrats-governors-biden-trump.html

    It’s cynical.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)


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