…and then there were four – at the Republican debate
[guest post by Dana]
Happening now.
Heh:
We’ve reached the shouting stage of the debate. It started with Christie trying to defend Haley against Ramaswamy – “This is a smart, accomplished woman and you should stop insulting her” – and descended into a shout-off between the two men.
Ramaswamy punched back with a reference to Bridgegate and some casual fat shaming. He then seemed to compare Nikki Haley to Dick Cheney. “You can put lipstick on a Dick Cheney – it is still a fascist neocon,” he said.
Of course it wouldn’t be a true Republican event without some MAGA crazy:
Vivek Ramasawamy spews wild conspiracy theories: "Why am I the only one on this stage, at least, who can say that January 6th now does look like it was an inside job? That the government lied to us for 20 years about Saudi Arabia's involvement in 9/11." pic.twitter.com/0qODL0Eb9E
— Republican Accountability (@AccountableGOP) December 7, 2023
—Dana
Hello. I meant to get this up earlier…
Dana (932d71) — 12/6/2023 @ 6:43 pmMaybe I already said this, but I wanna chop off Ramaswamy’s wagging index finger like a Yakuza warlord. When he’s really going, Vivek waves both of them.
Paul Montagu (d52d7d) — 12/6/2023 @ 6:47 pmGreat, DeSantis is talking like an RFK Jr. nutjob, saying that the mRNA vaccines are “experimental”.
Christie and Haley seem to have an understanding, temperamentally and philosophically. I think it would be best if he withdraws and joins the Haley campaign.
Paul Montagu (d52d7d) — 12/6/2023 @ 6:55 pmNikki would be dangerous to biden if she had a chance to get the nomination. Can you imagine what she would do to harris in a debate. Lucky for desatan that trump isn’t on the debate or he would show picture picture he has of desatan getting underage girls drunk at orgy while he was their teacher and ask. How many girls did you do?
asset (eddd0a) — 12/6/2023 @ 6:58 pmGeneral speaking, I don’t think “WTF is wrong with you” is the correct response for me to have regarding a political debate. Mostly it’s “Yeah, that’s not politically possible.” or “Nope wrong wrong.” or “Doable, but not likely.” or “seems unlikely to work like that in reality” and yet…
Nic (896fdf) — 12/6/2023 @ 7:00 pmGreat, DeSantis is talking like an RFK Jr. nutjob, saying that the mRNA vaccines are “experimental”.
The inventors of the technique won this year’s Nobel Prize in Medicine.
Kevin M (ed969f) — 12/6/2023 @ 7:51 pmEvery time I see Vivek in these debates, the question recurs: “How does this clown ever get laid, without cash being involved?”
Kevin M (ed969f) — 12/6/2023 @ 7:52 pmChristie and Haley seem to have an understanding, temperamentally and philosophically. I think it would be best if he withdraws and joins the Haley campaign.
Or ticket.
Kevin M (ed969f) — 12/6/2023 @ 7:53 pmMaybe I already said this, but I wanna chop off Ramaswamy’s wagging index finger
Two words: Lorena Bobbit.
Kevin M (ed969f) — 12/6/2023 @ 7:54 pmNo movement by Haley or DeSantis at getting more aggressive against Trump. More boo’ing of Christie for staying aggressive. Ramaswamy still in need of a good a$$ kicking. J6 was an inside job…what a nut job.
DeSantis continues to look uncomfortable to me on stage. I’m also unsure how much he understands how divided the country is and how threatening some of his language comes across as. If I was a moderate in a swing state, I would certainly prefer Haley over DeSantis. Leadership is more than pounding the table and forcing through questionable executive orders. At some point, you have to actually persuade people and build a governing coalition. DeSantis sounds like he wants to bypass any of that.
As much as polls suggest this is the theater of the small, we have two visions for the GOP post Trump. Haley’s still appeals more to be than DeSantis’.
AJ_Liberty (09ce66) — 12/6/2023 @ 8:32 pmYou’ve stated precisely my concerns about DeSantis. Well said.
Dana (932d71) — 12/6/2023 @ 8:44 pmDesatan thinks he can run the country like he runs floriduh. Polls show floridians don’t like the way he runs that state ;but when you control house senate and judiciary its easier to run roughshod over people especially with gerrymandered districts.
asset (eddd0a) — 12/6/2023 @ 9:10 pmSaletan captured Ramaswamy’s most unhinged moment from last night, although Vivek’s “Nikki = Corrupt” hand-drawn sign comes close.
Paul Montagu (d52d7d) — 12/7/2023 @ 3:53 amBurned toast and lumpy oatmeal at Ronna’s Diner. The Republican Party really has no justification for its existence.
nk (9a30e3) — 12/7/2023 @ 4:04 am@13, Come on, BuhDuh was in heaven. That paragraph was validation for every BuhDuh out there. Ramaswamy’s their hero.
AJ_Liberty (09ce66) — 12/7/2023 @ 5:32 amI think DeSantis nailed it. The biggest theme he pushed was that he “did” many conservative things as Governor.
Strange that Haley and Christie really didn’t take that opportunity to tout their own Governorship’s successes. That was the time/place to do it, and they just let DeSantis take that.
Haley didn’t too bad though and weathered the storm just fine. But I don’t think she did anything to improve her standing.
I don’t know what Vivek and Christie are still running. Its obvious that they simply don’t have a lane.
whembly (5f7596) — 12/7/2023 @ 8:48 amThese “debates” certainly vindicate Trump’s strategy to skip them. Based on the polling since the first one, he hasn’t paid a price for skipping them, increasing his national lead from 53% to 59% in the 538 average. The candidates last night came off as squabbling Lilliputians, with only Christie focused on Trump. We will see if DeSantis “nailed it” when new polls are conducted in Iowa and New Hampshire, but there is nothing to suggest that this debate (like the others) will fundamentally changed the race (since the first debate, DeSantis has remained relatively flat at 13%.)
The only thing that would change if Christie pulled out is consolidating the anti-Trump vote in New Hampshire. His support in other states is negligible.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 12/7/2023 @ 9:24 amDeSantis’s statement that “Nikki Haley, she caves every time the left comes after her” is more true when she is challenged from the right. When challenged by Bob Vander Plaats in Iowa on her “need for a consensus” abortion position, she immediately folded and endorsed a six-week ban:
She also immediately walked back her proposal to ban social media anonymity:
Again, my issue with Haley is the lack of her courage for her convictions. In response to Vander Plaats, she should have repeated her position regarding a national consensus on abortion, but instead took the easy way out and agreed with Vander Plaats. And after criticism of her social media proposal, she immediately switched her position after being adamant that all would need to provide their true identities. There goes the “civil discourse” justification for her proposal.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 12/7/2023 @ 9:52 amOf the 5 GOP candidates, who would you feel confident of as President, both in addressing domestic concerns and foreign challenges?
For me, only two have the chops: Nikki Haley and Chris Christie, with DeSantis being a distant third. The other two, the troll and the dictator, have neither the wit nor the temperament to serve in that role.
If I were looking only at foreign policy, I’d pick Nikki over Chris. If I was looking at domestic policy, I think Chris has the upper hand, but not by as much as the Nikki has on the other side.
Notionally, I’d favor a Haley/Christie ticket, but the hostility of MAGA to Christie might make that inadvisable and he might make a much better AG anyway. I could accept Haley/DeSantis, but I think she has better choices.
Any ticket with Trump or the Troll is unacceptable.
Kevin M (ed969f) — 12/7/2023 @ 9:57 amShe doubled down in a podcast appearance that also aired Tuesday. “They need to verify every single person on their outlet,” Haley said, “and I want it by name.”
Again, I have no problem with firms knowing who they are letting onto their service. They are getting government protection from liability for what these people post and it doesn’t seem like a great imposition to demand they know who the speakers are.
This is especially true since the sole remedy that victims of libel or invasion of privacy have is to sue the individual speaker. The service should be able to identify them if subpoenaed. Not being able to do so should leave the service open to paying damages.
Kevin M (ed969f) — 12/7/2023 @ 10:01 amMAGA is pretty hostile to Haley also, so it’s not much of a choice.
Rip Murdock (5ad73d) — 12/7/2023 @ 10:03 amOf course, that’s not the point of Haley’s proposal. Instead of Kevin M or Rip Murdock (or any of the other screen names here) your real name would be attached to your posts.
Rip Murdock (5ad73d) — 12/7/2023 @ 10:06 amThe focus should not be (as things are conflated) on putting a true name on every post, but on the service having that information available for legal process (and, incidentally barring accounts that do not have a human behind them).
As for nationality coming into play, a little flag icon on every post might be helpful. I see no invasion of privacy in knowing that the poster is Russian, or British or whatever.
Kevin M (ed969f) — 12/7/2023 @ 10:06 amOf course, that’s not the point of Haley’s proposal. Instead of Kevin M or Rip Murdock (or any of the other screen names here) your real name would be attached to your posts.
No, that’s the press’s and spinmeister’s conflation of her initial comments.
Sure, having one’s name on every post might make things move civil (see NextDoor for a service that attempts this) and she express that desire, but it’s not necessary to weed out foreign bots or to provide legal recourse to libel victims.
Kevin M (ed969f) — 12/7/2023 @ 10:10 amInstead of Kevin M or Rip Murdock (or any of the other screen names here) your real name would be attached to your posts.
Well, “Kevin M” is not so far from the actual one. At one point I was using my actual name, but Google made that inadvisable. I admit this is the only place I come that close but I have no problem with any service knowing who I really am, should I libel, threaten or otherwise abuse another person.
Kevin M (ed969f) — 12/7/2023 @ 10:14 amMAGA is pretty hostile to Haley also, so it’s not much of a choice.
MAGA could come around if Trump hoped for a pardon. Christie would never consider one.
Kevin M (ed969f) — 12/7/2023 @ 10:16 amAgain, my issue with Haley is the lack of her courage for her convictions. In response to Vander Plaats, she should have repeated her position regarding a national consensus on abortion, but instead took the easy way out and agreed with Vander Plaats.
That’s not what she said, and you are not this stupid Rip, so I assume this is just your bias.
She has said that she would sign any consensus bill that protected life. She was asked if she would sign a 6-week bill and she said yes. Since a 6-week bill that passes the legislature is a “consensus bill that protected life” it is perfectly in line with her previous comments.
That does not mean that she supports, or demands, a 6-week bill, only that she would sign one if Congress passed one — a very unlikely scenario, of course.
Kevin M (ed969f) — 12/7/2023 @ 10:20 amHer statement seems pretty clear to me:
“You’re going to get some civility when people know their name is next to what they say,” she said on Fox.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 12/7/2023 @ 10:21 amWe know Haley is “inclined” to consider one.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 12/7/2023 @ 10:22 amShe has confirmed that she is “inclined” to consider a pardon.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 12/7/2023 @ 10:24 amSorry for the double post. Not sure how it happened.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 12/7/2023 @ 10:25 amAgain, Haley took the bait and folded on her “abortion consensus” argument. She should have just repeated her position, but she was seeking evangelical votes she will never get in Iowa. Trump and DeSantis have locked up those votes.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 12/7/2023 @ 10:33 amAgain, Haley took the bait and folded on her “abortion consensus” argument.
How is legislation passed by Congress (or a state legislature) not a “consensus”? Did someone put a gun to their heads?
Kevin M (ed969f) — 12/7/2023 @ 10:39 amWORDLE in 2.
Kevin M (ed969f) — 12/7/2023 @ 10:45 amShe has confirmed that she is “inclined” to consider a pardon.
And it sure would help her consideration if MAGA voted for her, since if they didn’t she wouldn’t be elected.
Christie, though, would not consider one.
Kevin M (ed969f) — 12/7/2023 @ 10:47 amCongress and states enact legislation all the time that the public may or may not agree with. Legislatures don’t poll the public on every topic. Do you think the people in California are demanding that department stores have “gender neutral” toy aisles? I must have missed those protests in favor.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 12/7/2023 @ 10:56 am@24, I agree with Kevin, the service provider having the information addresses the issue of foreign bots. The issue of civility is not a role of government. I also agree that cyber stalking is real. Mutual assured destruction might dissuade it but it would be pretty risky…especially with the number of sociopaths and psychopaths. For general forums, we’re probably stuck.
@27, Seems right again. I tend to agree with her position and personally view extreme pro-lifers as getting way out in front of public opinion…as illustrated by none of Trump, DeSantis, Haley, or Christie wanting to champion broad national bans. It’s a death knell for a GOP candidate…who will need swing states. Consolidate Roe and focus on using carrots to reduce abortions.
If Haley is a Lilliputian, then someone complaining about her is a microputian…maybe a nanoputian coming out of California. She’s still much better than Trump….and much better than the authoritarian DeSantis. She’s more electable than Christie who needed an act of the polling God to even appear at the 4th debate.
AJ_Liberty (5f05c3) — 12/7/2023 @ 11:00 amIt doesn’t matter what Kevin’s position is, he’s not running for President. Haley is, and before 24 hours elapsed she disavowed her original position of banning anonymity on the Internet.
Again, my point is not whether she favors banning abortion or not, it is how easy she ignored her own position in her response to Vander Plaats. Like I said, she tailored her answer to her audience-Iowa evangelicals, which skew heavily toward DeSantis and Trump. I wonder how her response would play in New Hampshire-it will probably change again.
Haley is still a Lilliputian:
DeSantis 13%
Haley 11%
Ramaswamy 5%
Christie 3%
What you say about Haley being better than Trump is true, but Republican voters don’t care (Trump +49 over Haley, third place). I’ll stop calling her that with she breaks 20% nationally.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 12/7/2023 @ 11:22 amCongress and states enact legislation all the time that the public may or may not agree with.
In our system, we measure political consensus by legislation, and sometimes by plebiscite. Haley’s comments have been routinely constructed to explicitly refer to Congress’s (or the legislature’s) actions. Her response to Scott’s demands have always been “if that’s what Congress passed” she’d sign it, but she won’t demand a particular outcome.
Here, she was asked if she’d go along with a particular out come and since she’s always said she would, this was no contradiction.
Kevin M (ed969f) — 12/7/2023 @ 11:24 amRip, if Trump gets the GOP nomination I won’t vote for him, so IDFC if he’s leading or not and I’ll continue to give money to Haley.
Kevin M (ed969f) — 12/7/2023 @ 11:26 amThe Haley whisperer.
Rip Murdock (5ad73d) — 12/7/2023 @ 11:26 amOT: House oversight committee is signaling a vote to start the impeachment inquiry to Biden officially.
Evidently, the GOP whips believes they have to votes and is not doing this to embarrass hypothetical holdouts. (we’ll see next week)
whembly (5f7596) — 12/7/2023 @ 11:32 amThat’s great, but I’m just saying I’m keeping my expectations low that things will change.
Everyone should support and vote for whomever they want, but I think it’s unrealistic to see any of the candidates on the debate stage last night being nominated, based on what Republican voters are saying in the polls. I would love to be proved wrong.
Rip Murdock (5ad73d) — 12/7/2023 @ 11:35 amOops, forgot to paste the link to resolution:
https://rules.house.gov/sites/republicans.rules118.house.gov/files/BILLS-118hres918ih_0.pdf
Looks like its simply a formality to strengthen their subpoena power positions.
whembly (5f7596) — 12/7/2023 @ 11:42 amRunning for second place:
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 12/7/2023 @ 11:50 am“Everyone should support and vote for whomever they want, but I think it’s unrealistic to see any of the candidates on the debate stage last night being nominated, based on what Republican voters are saying in the polls.”
It really shouldn’t matter so much to you what we do or do not think. Just like it really shouldn’t matter to me what you think about Nikki Haley. Your opinion boils down to Trump is a lock, 3rd party candidates will only help him, your vote in CA doesn’t matter, so you’re not voting…and you believe a new GOP will appear in 2 years…somehow. That’s cool but we also have an evolving unprecedented situation brewing with the prosecution of Trump. The strength of the DC case is not precisely knowable….nor the efficacy of the defense…but at some point, we will know if it will affect the nomination and the general election. We can prognosticate until the cows come home, but sometimes you just have to wait and see. I’m giving no aid and comfort to the Trump camp. Tearing down anyone but Ramaswamy prematurely just helps Trump. If you don’t like Haley, that’s fine, but many here aren’t so weirdly bothered by her. Like Christie said, she’s smart and accomplished…and she’s not nearly as abrasive as DeSantis. Perfect is the enemy of good enough.
AJ_Liberty (5f05c3) — 12/7/2023 @ 12:17 pmThe Haley whisperer.
She could use a megaphone and you would still hear what you want to hear.
Kevin M (ed969f) — 12/7/2023 @ 12:23 pmBTW, does anyone think that Vivek helped himself in that debate?
Kevin M (ed969f) — 12/7/2023 @ 12:23 pm@45: Good find, Rip. And good idea CNN.
Kevin M (ed969f) — 12/7/2023 @ 12:25 pmRip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 12/7/2023 @ 11:22 am
This is what David French wrote today in the New York Times:
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/30/opinion/political-reality-
Sammy FInkelman (1d215a) — 12/7/2023 @ 12:28 pmalgorithms.html
Any future threshold should be Vivek +1. Let’s be honest.
AJ_Liberty (5f05c3) — 12/7/2023 @ 12:31 pmThe proposed debates will be just as pointless as the four previous ones unless Trump shows up.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 12/7/2023 @ 12:33 pmHe also wrote (relevant to other threads)
Here David French shows the extent in which he himself has limited knowledge. I am sure he thought this idea originated in America.
But that the destruction and the killings and the rapes at Israeli kibbutzim and other populated places did not happen, or were caused by Israel, is Hamas propaganda (at least for foreign consumption)
I heard a Hamas spokesman say something like that on the BBC (via NPR) Wednesday two or three weeks ago I think. He claimed there was some kind of objective proof.
It has also been endorsed by the Palestinian Authority (on November 19)
https://www.timesofisrael.com/pa-falsely-says-oct-7-rave-massacre-was-committed-by-idf-netanyahu-preposterous
As I said elsewhere, they alternate between celebrating the massacre, denying it, and denying the denial. (that last happened at Rutgers)
Sammy FInkelman (1d215a) — 12/7/2023 @ 12:43 pmThe strength of the DC case is not precisely knowable….nor the efficacy of the defense…but at some point, we will know if it will affect the nomination and the general election.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 12/7/2023 @ 12:45 pmFrom that Times of Israel story:
Actually living is a different reality has a lot of precedent. It was true of Communists outside the Soviet Union in the 1930s and 1940s.
I called the Twentieth Century the Age of Propaganda in an essay I wrote for a CLEP or Regents English test in 1985 or 1986
Sammy FInkelman (1d215a) — 12/7/2023 @ 12:49 pmTrump’s lawsuit is nonsense. Trump was acting in his capacity as a candidate for office. Now he had a right to make claims and to petition Congress and others..
Sammy FInkelman (1d215a) — 12/7/2023 @ 12:51 pm538/Washington Post/Ipsos Post-Debate Poll
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 12/7/2023 @ 12:58 pmAt the time of the January 6th insurrection, Trump wasn’t a candidate for the 2024 election.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 12/7/2023 @ 1:00 pmHaley’s positions are clear enough, sh Ed just keeps changing them.
Rip Murdock (5ad73d) — 12/7/2023 @ 1:38 pmTearing down anyone but Ramaswamy prematurely just helps Trump. If you don’t like Haley, that’s fine, but many here aren’t so weirdly bothered by her. Like Christie said, she’s smart and accomplished…and she’s not nearly as abrasive as DeSantis. Perfect is the enemy of good enough.
AJ_Liberty (5f05c3) — 12/7/2023 @ 12:17 pm
I agree with this.
Quoting polls is one thing, but attacking Haley like she is some kind of horrible candidate is a bridge too far. Perfect isn’t running for the nomination.
norcal (83734b) — 12/7/2023 @ 2:38 pmHaley’s positions are clear enough, sh Ed just keeps changing them.
Rip Murdock (5ad73d) — 12/7/2023 @ 1:38 pm
That’s what politicians do, Rip. Reagan signed a pro-choice law as governor. When running for President, he became pro-life.
I think you’re really being unreasonable here.
norcal (83734b) — 12/7/2023 @ 2:40 pmOuch!
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 12/7/2023 @ 2:43 pmWhatever. Everyone has their own opinions.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 12/7/2023 @ 2:45 pm@58
Frankly that’s irrelevant.
Trump believed the election was fraudulent. There needs to be avenues for such claims be taken to courts and to petition congress.
Now whether or not the actions Trump and his cronies actually took reach to some level of conspiracy to break the law. That remains to be seen.
whembly (5f7596) — 12/7/2023 @ 2:46 pmFrom the link in post 62:
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 12/7/2023 @ 2:51 pmTrump challenged the election results in multiple courts across multiple states, and lost every one.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 12/7/2023 @ 2:53 pmSee also here and here.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 12/7/2023 @ 2:58 pmOver the four debates, Trump has been attacked a total of 34 times, for an average of 8.5 times per debate. In contrast, non-Trump candidates have attacked each other 86 times, for an average of 21.5 times per debate.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 12/7/2023 @ 4:17 pmRip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 12/7/2023 @ 4:17 pm
Christie pointed out, 18 minutes in, that nobody else was – they were ignoring Trump treating it as if it was a contest between those 4 – not mentioning Trump’s name like Vordemont.
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 12/7/2023 @ 4:43 pmRip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 12/7/2023 @ 1:00 pm
He thought he was. He wasn’t acting in his capacity as president.
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 12/7/2023 @ 4:44 pmAt the time of the January 6th insurrection, Trump wasn’t a candidate for the 2024 election.
He asserted that he’d won a second term, so OF COURSE he wasn’t a candidate for 2024.
Kevin M (ed969f) — 12/7/2023 @ 5:09 pmnon-Trump candidates have attacked each other 86 times, for an average of 21.5 times per debate.
Is that counting Ramaswamy as a “non-Trump” candidate?
Kevin M (ed969f) — 12/7/2023 @ 5:11 pmTrump challenged the election results in multiple courts across multiple states, and lost every one.
All but a few on standing. Most of the time the merits of the suit was not reached.
Kevin M (ed969f) — 12/7/2023 @ 5:12 pmStanding was the merits. The States “chuse” the Electors, not the losing candidates.
nk (a641c0) — 12/7/2023 @ 5:26 pmnk, I don’t dispute the standing problems. Trump hires stupid lawyers and gives them stupid direction.
What I dispute is the idea that the complaints were heard and lost.
Kevin M (ed969f) — 12/7/2023 @ 5:35 pmNow it’s up to nine charges against Hunter, three of which are felonies.
Paul Montagu (d52d7d) — 12/7/2023 @ 6:20 pmIf he doesn’t plea out, he’ll be a nice ball-and-chain on his dad’s electoral chances.
Assumes facts not in evidence. Twice.
lurker (cd7cd4) — 12/7/2023 @ 8:20 pmAssumes facts not in evidence. Twice.
A question assumes nothing. But he does have money.
Kevin M (ed969f) — 12/8/2023 @ 12:10 am“When did you stop beating your wife?” assumes nothing?
lurker (cd7cd4) — 12/8/2023 @ 2:14 am