Patterico's Pontifications

12/6/2023

…and then there were four – at the Republican debate

Filed under: General — Dana @ 6:42 pm



[guest post by Dana]

Happening now.

Heh:

We’ve reached the shouting stage of the debate. It started with Christie trying to defend Haley against Ramaswamy – “This is a smart, accomplished woman and you should stop insulting her” – and descended into a shout-off between the two men.

Ramaswamy punched back with a reference to Bridgegate and some casual fat shaming. He then seemed to compare Nikki Haley to Dick Cheney. “You can put lipstick on a Dick Cheney – it is still a fascist neocon,” he said.

Of course it wouldn’t be a true Republican event without some MAGA crazy:

—Dana

79 Responses to “…and then there were four – at the Republican debate”

  1. Hello. I meant to get this up earlier…

    Dana (932d71)

  2. Maybe I already said this, but I wanna chop off Ramaswamy’s wagging index finger like a Yakuza warlord. When he’s really going, Vivek waves both of them.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  3. Great, DeSantis is talking like an RFK Jr. nutjob, saying that the mRNA vaccines are “experimental”.

    Christie and Haley seem to have an understanding, temperamentally and philosophically. I think it would be best if he withdraws and joins the Haley campaign.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  4. Nikki would be dangerous to biden if she had a chance to get the nomination. Can you imagine what she would do to harris in a debate. Lucky for desatan that trump isn’t on the debate or he would show picture picture he has of desatan getting underage girls drunk at orgy while he was their teacher and ask. How many girls did you do?

    asset (eddd0a)

  5. General speaking, I don’t think “WTF is wrong with you” is the correct response for me to have regarding a political debate. Mostly it’s “Yeah, that’s not politically possible.” or “Nope wrong wrong.” or “Doable, but not likely.” or “seems unlikely to work like that in reality” and yet…

    Nic (896fdf)

  6. Great, DeSantis is talking like an RFK Jr. nutjob, saying that the mRNA vaccines are “experimental”.

    The inventors of the technique won this year’s Nobel Prize in Medicine.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  7. Every time I see Vivek in these debates, the question recurs: “How does this clown ever get laid, without cash being involved?”

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  8. Christie and Haley seem to have an understanding, temperamentally and philosophically. I think it would be best if he withdraws and joins the Haley campaign.

    Or ticket.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  9. Maybe I already said this, but I wanna chop off Ramaswamy’s wagging index finger

    Two words: Lorena Bobbit.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  10. No movement by Haley or DeSantis at getting more aggressive against Trump. More boo’ing of Christie for staying aggressive. Ramaswamy still in need of a good a$$ kicking. J6 was an inside job…what a nut job.

    DeSantis continues to look uncomfortable to me on stage. I’m also unsure how much he understands how divided the country is and how threatening some of his language comes across as. If I was a moderate in a swing state, I would certainly prefer Haley over DeSantis. Leadership is more than pounding the table and forcing through questionable executive orders. At some point, you have to actually persuade people and build a governing coalition. DeSantis sounds like he wants to bypass any of that.

    As much as polls suggest this is the theater of the small, we have two visions for the GOP post Trump. Haley’s still appeals more to be than DeSantis’.

    AJ_Liberty (09ce66)

  11. DeSantis continues to look uncomfortable to me on stage. I’m also unsure how much he understands how divided the country is and how threatening some of his language comes across as. If I was a moderate in a swing state, I would certainly prefer Haley over DeSantis. Leadership is more than pounding the table and forcing through questionable executive orders. At some point, you have to actually persuade people and build a governing coalition. DeSantis sounds like he wants to bypass any of that.

    You’ve stated precisely my concerns about DeSantis. Well said.

    Dana (932d71)

  12. Desatan thinks he can run the country like he runs floriduh. Polls show floridians don’t like the way he runs that state ;but when you control house senate and judiciary its easier to run roughshod over people especially with gerrymandered districts.

    asset (eddd0a)

  13. Saletan captured Ramaswamy’s most unhinged moment from last night, although Vivek’s “Nikki = Corrupt” hand-drawn sign comes close.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  14. Burned toast and lumpy oatmeal at Ronna’s Diner. The Republican Party really has no justification for its existence.

    nk (9a30e3)

  15. @13, Come on, BuhDuh was in heaven. That paragraph was validation for every BuhDuh out there. Ramaswamy’s their hero.

    AJ_Liberty (09ce66)

  16. I think DeSantis nailed it. The biggest theme he pushed was that he “did” many conservative things as Governor.

    Strange that Haley and Christie really didn’t take that opportunity to tout their own Governorship’s successes. That was the time/place to do it, and they just let DeSantis take that.

    Haley didn’t too bad though and weathered the storm just fine. But I don’t think she did anything to improve her standing.

    I don’t know what Vivek and Christie are still running. Its obvious that they simply don’t have a lane.

    whembly (5f7596)

  17. No movement by Haley or DeSantis at getting more aggressive against Trump. More boo’ing of Christie for staying aggressive.

    AJ_Liberty (09ce66) — 12/6/2023 @ 8:32 pm

    These “debates” certainly vindicate Trump’s strategy to skip them. Based on the polling since the first one, he hasn’t paid a price for skipping them, increasing his national lead from 53% to 59% in the 538 average. The candidates last night came off as squabbling Lilliputians, with only Christie focused on Trump. We will see if DeSantis “nailed it” when new polls are conducted in Iowa and New Hampshire, but there is nothing to suggest that this debate (like the others) will fundamentally changed the race (since the first debate, DeSantis has remained relatively flat at 13%.)

    The only thing that would change if Christie pulled out is consolidating the anti-Trump vote in New Hampshire. His support in other states is negligible.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  18. DeSantis’s statement that “Nikki Haley, she caves every time the left comes after her” is more true when she is challenged from the right. When challenged by Bob Vander Plaats in Iowa on her “need for a consensus” abortion position, she immediately folded and endorsed a six-week ban:

    During the Thanksgiving family forum in Des Moines, Iowa, Bob Vander Plaats, the head of the Christian group hosting the event, questioned Haley’s recent abortion comments, in which she called for the nation to find a consensus on limiting abortion. Noting the remarks sounded “pro-choice” to some anti-abortion evangelicals, he asked, “Can you assure them why that’s not a pro-choice answer?”
    ……….
    Vander Plaats later pressed Haley on whether she would have signed a six-week abortion bill into law when she was governor. “Yes. Whatever the people decide, you should do,” Haley said. “I think it’s right to be in the hands of the people. I think that the people decided this was put in the states; that’s where it should be. Everybody can give their voice to it.”

    She also immediately walked back her proposal to ban social media anonymity:

    “You’re going to get some civility when people know their name is next to what they say,” she said on Fox.

    She doubled down in a podcast appearance that also aired Tuesday. “They need to verify every single person on their outlet,” Haley said, “and I want it by name.”
    ……….
    “Do I think life would be more civil if we were able to do that? Yes,” she responded (on CNN). “You should stand by what you say.”
    ……….
    It was unclear if Haley envisioned that only American citizens would be able to post anonymously on social media sites, or if she would only want to ban anonymous posts from certain countries. It was also unclear how her carve-out for anonymous Americans would fit in with her proposal to “verify everybody” on social media.

    Again, my issue with Haley is the lack of her courage for her convictions. In response to Vander Plaats, she should have repeated her position regarding a national consensus on abortion, but instead took the easy way out and agreed with Vander Plaats. And after criticism of her social media proposal, she immediately switched her position after being adamant that all would need to provide their true identities. There goes the “civil discourse” justification for her proposal.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  19. Of the 5 GOP candidates, who would you feel confident of as President, both in addressing domestic concerns and foreign challenges?

    For me, only two have the chops: Nikki Haley and Chris Christie, with DeSantis being a distant third. The other two, the troll and the dictator, have neither the wit nor the temperament to serve in that role.

    If I were looking only at foreign policy, I’d pick Nikki over Chris. If I was looking at domestic policy, I think Chris has the upper hand, but not by as much as the Nikki has on the other side.

    Notionally, I’d favor a Haley/Christie ticket, but the hostility of MAGA to Christie might make that inadvisable and he might make a much better AG anyway. I could accept Haley/DeSantis, but I think she has better choices.

    Any ticket with Trump or the Troll is unacceptable.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  20. She doubled down in a podcast appearance that also aired Tuesday. “They need to verify every single person on their outlet,” Haley said, “and I want it by name.”

    Again, I have no problem with firms knowing who they are letting onto their service. They are getting government protection from liability for what these people post and it doesn’t seem like a great imposition to demand they know who the speakers are.

    This is especially true since the sole remedy that victims of libel or invasion of privacy have is to sue the individual speaker. The service should be able to identify them if subpoenaed. Not being able to do so should leave the service open to paying damages.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  21. MAGA is pretty hostile to Haley also, so it’s not much of a choice.

    Rip Murdock (5ad73d)

  22. Again, I have no problem with firms knowing who they are letting onto their service.

    Of course, that’s not the point of Haley’s proposal. Instead of Kevin M or Rip Murdock (or any of the other screen names here) your real name would be attached to your posts.

    Rip Murdock (5ad73d)

  23. The focus should not be (as things are conflated) on putting a true name on every post, but on the service having that information available for legal process (and, incidentally barring accounts that do not have a human behind them).

    As for nationality coming into play, a little flag icon on every post might be helpful. I see no invasion of privacy in knowing that the poster is Russian, or British or whatever.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  24. Of course, that’s not the point of Haley’s proposal. Instead of Kevin M or Rip Murdock (or any of the other screen names here) your real name would be attached to your posts.

    No, that’s the press’s and spinmeister’s conflation of her initial comments.

    Sure, having one’s name on every post might make things move civil (see NextDoor for a service that attempts this) and she express that desire, but it’s not necessary to weed out foreign bots or to provide legal recourse to libel victims.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  25. Instead of Kevin M or Rip Murdock (or any of the other screen names here) your real name would be attached to your posts.

    Well, “Kevin M” is not so far from the actual one. At one point I was using my actual name, but Google made that inadvisable. I admit this is the only place I come that close but I have no problem with any service knowing who I really am, should I libel, threaten or otherwise abuse another person.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  26. MAGA is pretty hostile to Haley also, so it’s not much of a choice.

    MAGA could come around if Trump hoped for a pardon. Christie would never consider one.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  27. Again, my issue with Haley is the lack of her courage for her convictions. In response to Vander Plaats, she should have repeated her position regarding a national consensus on abortion, but instead took the easy way out and agreed with Vander Plaats.

    That’s not what she said, and you are not this stupid Rip, so I assume this is just your bias.

    She has said that she would sign any consensus bill that protected life. She was asked if she would sign a 6-week bill and she said yes. Since a 6-week bill that passes the legislature is a “consensus bill that protected life” it is perfectly in line with her previous comments.

    That does not mean that she supports, or demands, a 6-week bill, only that she would sign one if Congress passed one — a very unlikely scenario, of course.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  28. No, that’s the press’s and spinmeister’s conflation of her initial comments.

    Her statement seems pretty clear to me:

    “You’re going to get some civility when people know their name is next to what they say,” she said on Fox.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  29. Kevin M (ed969f) — 12/7/2023 @ 10:16 am

    We know Haley is “inclined” to consider one.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  30. Kevin M (ed969f) — 12/7/2023 @ 10:16 am

    She has confirmed that she is “inclined” to consider a pardon.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  31. Sorry for the double post. Not sure how it happened.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  32. Kevin M (ed969f) — 12/7/2023 @ 10:20 am

    Again, Haley took the bait and folded on her “abortion consensus” argument. She should have just repeated her position, but she was seeking evangelical votes she will never get in Iowa. Trump and DeSantis have locked up those votes.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  33. Again, Haley took the bait and folded on her “abortion consensus” argument.

    How is legislation passed by Congress (or a state legislature) not a “consensus”? Did someone put a gun to their heads?

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  34. WORDLE in 2.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  35. She has confirmed that she is “inclined” to consider a pardon.

    And it sure would help her consideration if MAGA voted for her, since if they didn’t she wouldn’t be elected.

    Christie, though, would not consider one.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  36. How is legislation passed by Congress (or a state legislature) not a “consensus”? Did someone put a gun to their heads?

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 12/7/2023 @ 10:39 am

    Congress and states enact legislation all the time that the public may or may not agree with. Legislatures don’t poll the public on every topic. Do you think the people in California are demanding that department stores have “gender neutral” toy aisles? I must have missed those protests in favor.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  37. @24, I agree with Kevin, the service provider having the information addresses the issue of foreign bots. The issue of civility is not a role of government. I also agree that cyber stalking is real. Mutual assured destruction might dissuade it but it would be pretty risky…especially with the number of sociopaths and psychopaths. For general forums, we’re probably stuck.

    @27, Seems right again. I tend to agree with her position and personally view extreme pro-lifers as getting way out in front of public opinion…as illustrated by none of Trump, DeSantis, Haley, or Christie wanting to champion broad national bans. It’s a death knell for a GOP candidate…who will need swing states. Consolidate Roe and focus on using carrots to reduce abortions.

    If Haley is a Lilliputian, then someone complaining about her is a microputian…maybe a nanoputian coming out of California. She’s still much better than Trump….and much better than the authoritarian DeSantis. She’s more electable than Christie who needed an act of the polling God to even appear at the 4th debate.

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  38. AJ_Liberty (5f05c3) — 12/7/2023 @ 11:00 am

    It doesn’t matter what Kevin’s position is, he’s not running for President. Haley is, and before 24 hours elapsed she disavowed her original position of banning anonymity on the Internet.

    Again, my point is not whether she favors banning abortion or not, it is how easy she ignored her own position in her response to Vander Plaats. Like I said, she tailored her answer to her audience-Iowa evangelicals, which skew heavily toward DeSantis and Trump. I wonder how her response would play in New Hampshire-it will probably change again.

    Haley is still a Lilliputian:

    DeSantis 13%
    Haley 11%
    Ramaswamy 5%
    Christie 3%

    What you say about Haley being better than Trump is true, but Republican voters don’t care (Trump +49 over Haley, third place). I’ll stop calling her that with she breaks 20% nationally.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  39. Congress and states enact legislation all the time that the public may or may not agree with.

    In our system, we measure political consensus by legislation, and sometimes by plebiscite. Haley’s comments have been routinely constructed to explicitly refer to Congress’s (or the legislature’s) actions. Her response to Scott’s demands have always been “if that’s what Congress passed” she’d sign it, but she won’t demand a particular outcome.

    Here, she was asked if she’d go along with a particular out come and since she’s always said she would, this was no contradiction.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  40. Rip, if Trump gets the GOP nomination I won’t vote for him, so IDFC if he’s leading or not and I’ll continue to give money to Haley.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  41. The Haley whisperer.

    Rip Murdock (5ad73d)

  42. OT: House oversight committee is signaling a vote to start the impeachment inquiry to Biden officially.

    Evidently, the GOP whips believes they have to votes and is not doing this to embarrass hypothetical holdouts. (we’ll see next week)

    whembly (5f7596)

  43. Rip, if Trump gets the GOP nomination I won’t vote for him, so IDFC if he’s leading or not and I’ll continue to give money to Haley.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 12/7/2023 @ 11:26 am

    That’s great, but I’m just saying I’m keeping my expectations low that things will change.

    Everyone should support and vote for whomever they want, but I think it’s unrealistic to see any of the candidates on the debate stage last night being nominated, based on what Republican voters are saying in the polls. I would love to be proved wrong.

    Rip Murdock (5ad73d)

  44. Oops, forgot to paste the link to resolution:
    https://rules.house.gov/sites/republicans.rules118.house.gov/files/BILLS-118hres918ih_0.pdf

    Looks like its simply a formality to strengthen their subpoena power positions.

    whembly (5f7596)

  45. Running for second place:

    ………
    ………Ron DeSantis wants a head-to-head clash with Nikki Haley, and he might get that chance.

    The Florida governor told conservative radio host Hugh Hewitt on Thursday morning that he hopes the criteria to make upcoming debate qualification more difficult, potentially resulting in a one-on-one faceoff with the former United Nations ambassador.

    Hewitt asked DeSantis if he’d be willing to debate Haley one-on-one on his radio show, prompting DeSantis to predict that the showdown might be happening anyway in Iowa and New Hampshire.
    ……….
    Just a short time later, CNN announced it will hold debates in Iowa on Jan. 10 and New Hampshire on Jan. 21, both with higher bars for entry, if candidates choose to participate. It’s the first media organization to publicly announce plans for debates in 2024.

    “To qualify for participation in the Iowa debate, candidates must receive at least 10% in three separate national and/or Iowa polls of Republican caucusgoers or primary voters that meet CNN’s standards for reporting, according to the network. One of the three polls must be an approved CNN poll of likely Iowa Republican caucusgoers,” reads a letter from CNN staff announcing their Iowa debate plans.

    The network put the same 10% threshold on state polls of New Hampshire for its event there, too, though it also said it would admit candidates who finished in the top three in Iowa’s Jan. 15 caucuses.

    DeSantis, Haley, and former President Donald Trump are the only candidates consistently getting double digits in public polls of Iowa Republicans, while former New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie has also exceeded 10% in several recent polls of New Hampshire. But Trump has skipped all of the GOP debates this cycle thus far.
    ………..

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  46. “Everyone should support and vote for whomever they want, but I think it’s unrealistic to see any of the candidates on the debate stage last night being nominated, based on what Republican voters are saying in the polls.”

    It really shouldn’t matter so much to you what we do or do not think. Just like it really shouldn’t matter to me what you think about Nikki Haley. Your opinion boils down to Trump is a lock, 3rd party candidates will only help him, your vote in CA doesn’t matter, so you’re not voting…and you believe a new GOP will appear in 2 years…somehow. That’s cool but we also have an evolving unprecedented situation brewing with the prosecution of Trump. The strength of the DC case is not precisely knowable….nor the efficacy of the defense…but at some point, we will know if it will affect the nomination and the general election. We can prognosticate until the cows come home, but sometimes you just have to wait and see. I’m giving no aid and comfort to the Trump camp. Tearing down anyone but Ramaswamy prematurely just helps Trump. If you don’t like Haley, that’s fine, but many here aren’t so weirdly bothered by her. Like Christie said, she’s smart and accomplished…and she’s not nearly as abrasive as DeSantis. Perfect is the enemy of good enough.

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  47. The Haley whisperer.

    She could use a megaphone and you would still hear what you want to hear.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  48. BTW, does anyone think that Vivek helped himself in that debate?

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  49. @45: Good find, Rip. And good idea CNN.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  50. Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 12/7/2023 @ 11:22 am

    What you say about Haley being better than Trump is true, but Republican voters don’t care (Trump +49 over Haley, third place). I’ll stop calling her that with she breaks 20% nationally.

    This is what David French wrote today in the New York Times:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/30/opinion/political-reality-
    algorithms.html

    Countless people have asked me, for example, why Republican voters remain so loyal to Trump in spite of his eye-watering displays of corruption and misconduct. And while there are certainly some people who support Trump even though they know chapter and verse about his misdeeds, vast numbers of others are shockingly ignorant of all that he’s done. Their bespoke reality simply doesn’t include that information.

    Sammy FInkelman (1d215a)

  51. Any future threshold should be Vivek +1. Let’s be honest.

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  52. @45: Good find, Rip. And good idea CNN.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 12/7/2023 @ 12:25 pm

    The proposed debates will be just as pointless as the four previous ones unless Trump shows up.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  53. He also wrote (relevant to other threads)

    But don’t think for a moment that bespoke realities are confined to the right. On Wednesday, video segments raced across the internet featuring utterly bizarre public statements from a City Council meeting in Oakland, Calif. The council was debating a resolution to call for a cease-fire in Gaza and, in response to a suggestion that it include a condemnation of Hamas, far-left progressives took to the mic to make a series of astonishing claims, including that Israel “murdered their own people on Oct. 7” and that those who opposed them were “old white supremacists.”

    Here David French shows the extent in which he himself has limited knowledge. I am sure he thought this idea originated in America.

    But that the destruction and the killings and the rapes at Israeli kibbutzim and other populated places did not happen, or were caused by Israel, is Hamas propaganda (at least for foreign consumption)

    I heard a Hamas spokesman say something like that on the BBC (via NPR) Wednesday two or three weeks ago I think. He claimed there was some kind of objective proof.

    It has also been endorsed by the Palestinian Authority (on November 19)

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/pa-falsely-says-oct-7-rave-massacre-was-committed-by-idf-netanyahu-preposterous

    PA falsely says Oct. 7 rave massacre was committed by IDF; Netanyahu: Preposterous

    Following strong Israeli rebuke, Palestinian Authority foreign ministry deletes claim from social media; Ramallah also claims Israel ‘fabricated’ material to justify war on Hamas

    By GIANLUCA PACCHIANI
    19 November 2023, 10:20 pm

    As I said elsewhere, they alternate between celebrating the massacre, denying it, and denying the denial. (that last happened at Rutgers)

    Sammy FInkelman (1d215a)

  54. The strength of the DC case is not precisely knowable….nor the efficacy of the defense…but at some point, we will know if it will affect the nomination and the general election.

    Trump appeals Jan. 6 immunity ruling, launching process that may delay trial

    Donald Trump filed notice on Thursday saying he will appeal a D.C. judge’s ruling that he was not immune from being charged with federal crimes for his efforts to undo the outcome of the 2020 election, either by his former role as president or the Constitution’s rules for impeachment.

    ……..(I)t sets in motion one of the most potentially consequential parts of Trump’s legal saga as the first former president to be charged with crimes. How and when the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit and the Supreme Court handle his appeal could have a huge impact on whether Trump — who is again running for president — goes on trial before voters go to the polls in 2024, or ever.
    ………
    Appeals courts consider very few legal issues before a criminal case goes to trial and a verdict is reached. But questions of immunity and double jeopardy are often among the exceptions, because if the defendant is right that they cannot be charged, courts have held that they should not be forced to go through a trial at all.

    And since the Supreme Court has never grappled with some of the legal questions at issue in Trump’s claims — particularly whether a president is immune from indictment and criminal prosecution for actions undertaken while in office, even after he has left office — many lawyers say they believe the courts will have to wrestle with those aspects of the Trump case.

    The key issue, according to legal experts, is how long will the higher courts consider that question. …….

    Now that Trump has filed his notice of appeal on Chutkan’s immunity ruling, the case cannot proceed to trial while the appeals court takes up his claims, legal analysts said. …….
    ………
    Based on that calculus, some analysts say the three-judge panel that will hear the appeal first would have to rule on it soon after the New Year for a trial to be completed before next summer’s presidential nominating conventions. That is because Trump is expected, if he loses, to appeal to the full appeals court or the Supreme Court, seeking an injunction to stop the trial case from going forward while his arguments are again considered.
    ……….
    “We’re in a bit of procedural no man’s land, because although an immediate appeal on immunity issues is pretty well standard, the question is, this is a new case, and this is the first time we’ve had a former president indicted,” said Stanley Brand, former House general counsel and now an attorney for several former Trump aides including Dan Scavino and Peter Navarro.
    ………
    It’s December, “and unless there’s expedited consideration, it’s hard to see how you could have any consideration thoughtful enough to consider these novel issues in three months,” Brand said.

    One critical factor will be which three appellate judges end up hearing the case. If judges can agree on how quickly they want to move forward, such panels can issue decisions in under two months. Other cases, however, can take more than a year.
    ……….
    Last week, in a separate ruling issued hours before Chutkan denied Trump’s bid to dismiss the criminal case, the D.C. appeals court denied Trump’s claims of immunity from a civil lawsuit over his conduct leading up to Jan. 6. That decision took 20 months to reach.

    “The D.C. Circuit can go really fast, I’ve learned that over 45 years of practice,” said Douglas N. Letter, who was House general counsel from 2018 to 2023 and before that was director of the Justice Department civil division’s appellate staff. “On the other hand, sometimes even when it rules in your favor it can wait 10 months to issue even a short opinion.”
    ……….

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  55. From that Times of Israel story:

    In a statement by its foreign ministry which has since been deleted from its social media accounts — but which Hebrew media said was sent as a document to diplomats and to the United Nations — Ramallah asserted that Israeli helicopters bombed Israeli civilians on October 7 during the Supernova music festival as part of the so-called “Hannibal Protocol, which allowed the occupation police and army to kill everyone.”

    The Hannibal Protocol was a controversial military order repealed in 2016 that granted troops broad permission to do whatever is necessary to prevent the kidnapping of a fellow soldier, including the possibility of endangering their life.

    Actually living is a different reality has a lot of precedent. It was true of Communists outside the Soviet Union in the 1930s and 1940s.

    I called the Twentieth Century the Age of Propaganda in an essay I wrote for a CLEP or Regents English test in 1985 or 1986

    Sammy FInkelman (1d215a)

  56. Trump’s lawsuit is nonsense. Trump was acting in his capacity as a candidate for office. Now he had a right to make claims and to petition Congress and others..

    Sammy FInkelman (1d215a)

  57. 538/Washington Post/Ipsos Post-Debate Poll

    ………
    According to our poll, likely Republican primary voters who watched at least some of the debate gave DeSantis and Haley the highest marks for their performances. …….DeSantis got a 3.4 out of 5, while Haley got a 3.3 out of 5. ……

    On the other end of the spectrum, debate watchers gave both Christie (2.9 out of 5) and Ramaswamy (2.8 out of 5) below-average scores for their performance. …….

    When the 538/Washington Post/Ipsos poll asked debate watchers to pick just one candidate who performed the best, DeSantis came out ahead, with 30 percent saying he was the strongest performer and 23 percent saying Haley was. …….. Christie and Ramaswamy seemed to find some fans out there too, with 19 percent saying Christie had the strongest performance and 16 percent picking Ramaswamy. However, those people were clearly in the minority, as much larger shares of Republican debate watchers said that Ramaswamy (37 percent) and Christie (31 percent) had the worst debate performances.

    But when it comes to the million-dollar question — whether the debate actually helped anyone in the polls — it actually seems like Christie was the winner. When we asked poll respondents (including both debate watchers and non-watchers) whom they were considering voting for (respondents could choose multiple candidates for this question), Christie was the only candidate who had more potential support after the debate (18 percent) than before it (15 percent). Despite that, though, Christie is still mired toward the bottom of the pack, with the least potential support out of the candidates who made the stage.

    Ultimately, the debate doesn’t seem to have changed the overall trajectory of the race. In our post-debate poll, former President Donald Trump (who once again skipped the debate) still had the most potential support at 64 percent, and DeSantis and Haley were still his main competition — although, for the first time in four debates, neither made gains in the race for second place……….

    Perhaps it’s not surprising that the debate doesn’t seem to have mattered much in the grand scheme of things — 72 percent of likely Republican primary voters in our survey didn’t even watch it.
    ………..

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  58. Trump’s lawsuit is nonsense. Trump was acting in his capacity as a candidate for office. Now he had a right to make claims and to petition Congress and others..

    Sammy FInkelman (1d215a) — 12/7/2023 @ 12:51 pm

    At the time of the January 6th insurrection, Trump wasn’t a candidate for the 2024 election.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  59. She could use a megaphone and you would still hear what you want to hear.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 12/7/2023 @ 12:23 pm

    Haley’s positions are clear enough, sh Ed just keeps changing them.

    Rip Murdock (5ad73d)

  60. Tearing down anyone but Ramaswamy prematurely just helps Trump. If you don’t like Haley, that’s fine, but many here aren’t so weirdly bothered by her. Like Christie said, she’s smart and accomplished…and she’s not nearly as abrasive as DeSantis. Perfect is the enemy of good enough.

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3) — 12/7/2023 @ 12:17 pm

    I agree with this.

    Quoting polls is one thing, but attacking Haley like she is some kind of horrible candidate is a bridge too far. Perfect isn’t running for the nomination.

    norcal (83734b)

  61. Haley’s positions are clear enough, sh Ed just keeps changing them.

    Rip Murdock (5ad73d) — 12/7/2023 @ 1:38 pm

    That’s what politicians do, Rip. Reagan signed a pro-choice law as governor. When running for President, he became pro-life.

    I think you’re really being unreasonable here.

    norcal (83734b)

  62. Ouch!

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  63. norcal (83734b) — 12/7/2023 @ 2:38 pm

    norcal (83734b) — 12/7/2023 @ 2:40 pm

    Whatever. Everyone has their own opinions.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  64. @58

    At the time of the January 6th insurrection, Trump wasn’t a candidate for the 2024 election.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 12/7/2023 @ 1:00 pm

    Frankly that’s irrelevant.

    Trump believed the election was fraudulent. There needs to be avenues for such claims be taken to courts and to petition congress.

    Now whether or not the actions Trump and his cronies actually took reach to some level of conspiracy to break the law. That remains to be seen.

    whembly (5f7596)

  65. From the link in post 62:

    If the candidates trying to wrest their party’s presidential nomination from Donald Trump began the Republican debates over three months ago in a spirit of hope, they have plunged since then into a panicked state. A desperate one.
    ………
    It was also totally, utterly pointless.

    Ramaswamy’s going nowhere. Christie’s in the same sinking boat. If the polls are credible — and they’ve at least been consistent — not one of the four people onstage in Tuscaloosa, Ala., has made meaningful progress in peeling Republican voters away from Trump and closing the enormous gap between his front-runner status and their also-ran positions.

    And their answer to that? Except for Christie, they devoted more time and energy to sniping at one another than to taking sustained and forceful aim at the actual agent of their political frustration, the real source of their electoral woe, the great orange obstacle between them and the White House. And that’s why they’re unlikely to get there.

    These aspirants to the presidency have now spent four debates quarreling with one another, and they have now spent four debates pussyfooting around the absent leader of the pack and letting him off easy. What a timid game. ……

    Christie called them out on it. He said that his three sparring partners were “acting as if the race is between the four of us.” “They’re afraid to offend,” he said, and he’s right. That fear could very well deliver the party’s nomination, for the third presidential election in a row, to a serial liar who has grown more and more honest about one thing: his authoritarian ambitions. His dictatorial fantasies.

    ………He sounded an alarm about Trump’s dark promises, denounced them and invited Haley, DeSantis and Ramaswamy to do the same. They declined to R.S.V.P.
    ………
    With less than six weeks to go before the Iowa caucuses, there’s no sign that Trump is faltering. There’s no real reason to believe that he will falter — not if four indictments didn’t make that happen. Not if he has successfully stitched 91 felony counts into a cloak of honor.
    ………

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  66. Trump believed the election was fraudulent. There needs to be avenues for such claims be taken to courts and to petition congress.

    Trump challenged the election results in multiple courts across multiple states, and lost every one.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  67. See also here and here.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  68. And the grand total of times candidates attacked Trump on the debate stage is…….

    Donald Trump has gotten kid glove treatment from his Republican opponents throughout a crucial stretch of the primary season — and the numbers prove it.

    A POLITICO analysis of the four GOP debates reveals a surprising pattern: With each debate, the candidates have been more and more inclined to go after each other instead of Trump, the far-and-away leader in the polls. The trend continued on Wednesday night, when only Chris Christie, the lowest-polling contender to make the debate stage, mounted sustained attacks on the former president.

    The analysis, based on transcripts from Rev.com, an audio transcription service, identified how often Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis, former South Carolina Gov. Nikki Haley, entrepreneur Vivek Ramaswamy and Christie attacked Trump, President Joe Biden and each other across the four debates. All direct criticisms, in which candidates called out each other by name, were included. …….

    The volume of attacks directed at other GOP rivals underscores how the debates have largely been a fight for second place. …….

    Moreover, attacks on the former president haven’t increased as the debates have gone on, despite his continued rise in the polls. In the first debate, when Trump had 52 percent in the national polls, the candidates leveled 10 attacks against the former president. He now sits at 60 percent, but faces fewer attacks.
    ………
    The Trump critics’ struggles — and Trump’s continued rise in the polls — reflects how opposition to the former president may not play well with Republican primary voters and helps explain why other candidates may be reluctant to go after him, even as he remains their biggest obstacle to the nomination.
    ………

    Over the four debates, Trump has been attacked a total of 34 times, for an average of 8.5 times per debate. In contrast, non-Trump candidates have attacked each other 86 times, for an average of 21.5 times per debate.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  69. Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 12/7/2023 @ 4:17 pm

    A POLITICO analysis of the four GOP debates reveals a surprising pattern: With each debate, the candidates have been more and more inclined to go after each other instead of Trump, the far-and-away leader in the polls. The trend continued on Wednesday night, when only Chris Christie, the lowest-polling contender to make the debate stage, mounted sustained attacks on the former president.

    Christie pointed out, 18 minutes in, that nobody else was – they were ignoring Trump treating it as if it was a contest between those 4 – not mentioning Trump’s name like Vordemont.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  70. Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 12/7/2023 @ 1:00 pm

    At the time of the January 6th insurrection, Trump wasn’t a candidate for the 2024 election.

    He thought he was. He wasn’t acting in his capacity as president.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  71. At the time of the January 6th insurrection, Trump wasn’t a candidate for the 2024 election.

    He asserted that he’d won a second term, so OF COURSE he wasn’t a candidate for 2024.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  72. non-Trump candidates have attacked each other 86 times, for an average of 21.5 times per debate.

    Is that counting Ramaswamy as a “non-Trump” candidate?

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  73. Trump challenged the election results in multiple courts across multiple states, and lost every one.

    All but a few on standing. Most of the time the merits of the suit was not reached.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  74. Standing was the merits. The States “chuse” the Electors, not the losing candidates.

    nk (a641c0)

  75. nk, I don’t dispute the standing problems. Trump hires stupid lawyers and gives them stupid direction.

    What I dispute is the idea that the complaints were heard and lost.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  76. Now it’s up to nine charges against Hunter, three of which are felonies.
    If he doesn’t plea out, he’ll be a nice ball-and-chain on his dad’s electoral chances.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  77. “How does this clown ever get laid, without cash being involved?”

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 12/6/2023 @ 7:52 pm

    Assumes facts not in evidence. Twice.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  78. Assumes facts not in evidence. Twice.

    A question assumes nothing. But he does have money.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  79. A question assumes nothing.

    “When did you stop beating your wife?” assumes nothing?

    lurker (cd7cd4)


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