Patterico's Pontifications

10/11/2023

Why Is Anyone Surprised At The Vicious Brutality Of Hamas? (Update Added)

Filed under: General — Dana @ 10:34 am



[guest post by Dana]

I’ve been reading quite a few comments on social media from people who disbelieve reports that Hamas killed Israeli babies, and even decapitated any number of them during the brutal surprise attack. As such, the doubters want to see photographic proof of such a grotesquerie. With clenched fists, they demand, Show us the bodies now!

What’s telling about their attempts to ignore and deny the unveiled evil is the fact that, if the mission of Hamas is to wipe the Jews off the face of the earth, then why *wouldn’t* the next generation of Jews be one of their primary targets? And if you are part of a death cult, what could represent life more than a small baby, new to the world and filled with the promise and hope that all babies are imbued with? If the death cult sees these small ones as mortal enemies in their promise for new generations of Jews, why would there even be a second thought about killing them and dismembering their little bodies? If you believe them to be so heinous, then anything goes. And Hamas wears this face of pure evil with pride.

Today we learn that, according to eye witnesses, such barbarity did indeed take place:

Israeli emergency responders with years of experience doing the grim work of recovering bodies broke down in tears Wednesday as they told CBS News what they’d witnessed in the aftermath of Hamas’ brutal terror attack on Israel… Israeli security forces discovered the aftermath of what a military spokesperson said could only be described as “a massacre.”

“We see blood spread out in homes. We’ve found bodies of people who have been butchered,” said Israel Defense Forces spokesperson Maj. Libby Weiss. “The depravity of it is haunting.”

Weiss told CBS News that more than one of the Israeli soldiers who first reached Kfar Aza reported finding “beheaded children of varying ages, ranging from babies to slightly older children,” along with adults who had also been dismembered.

Yossi Landau, the head of operations for the southern region of Zaka, Israel’s volunteer civilian emergency response organization, told CBS News he saw with his own eyes children and babies who had been beheaded.

“I saw a lot more that cannot be described for now, because it’s very hard to describe,” he said, speaking of parents and children found with their hands bound and clear signs of torture.

I thought this is a very good reflection of what is taking place in Israel at the hands of Hamas, so no one should be surprised:

In a 2014 essay in The The Atlantic, Jeffrey Goldberg, the magazine’s editor-in-chief, called the Hamas charter “a frank and open call for genocide, embedded in one of the most thoroughly antisemitic documents you’ll read this side of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.”

He titled the essay with a question, “What Would Hamas Do If It Could Do Whatever It Wanted?”

Now we know the answer.

Another question I would ask is: Is it more palatable to these doubters and deniers if the babies had their necks slit, were thrown to their deaths, or smothered? Does that make their murders any less evil? Or is the unspeakably horrific just that? There is an inability to look at evil and call it what it is. But we must. Without fail.

UPDATE: For the ghouls who cried Show us the bodies!, The Jerusalem Post has now confirmed claims that babies were burnt and decapitated. There are also photos at the Prime Minister of Israel’s social media feed (X). They are horrific, consider yourselves warmed.

—Dana

80 Responses to “Why Is Anyone Surprised At The Vicious Brutality Of Hamas? (Update Added)”

  1. Hello.

    Apologies for any editing errors. Am having to write the post on my phone. No easy feat.

    Dana (bf118c)

  2. A whole lot of foreign policy bigwigs is going to need to express some sort of mea culpa for believing Hamas could join the civilized world.

    whembly (5f7596)

  3. Anyone who has observed Trump supporers slide down to the justification of pure awfulness recognizes what’s going on with the Israel hating precincts of the left. Disbelief and surprise will pass. Justification and whataboutism will replace it.

    And, yeah,I am probably guilty of both-sides-ism. Not that I care…

    Appalled (5eb4fe)

  4. Here’s something that I don’t think has be reported much…

    Bibi and his opponents formed a government for this war. If you followed Iraeli politics recently, you know the parties don’t have a lot of love for one another.

    The formation of the unity government and war cabinet spells out just how badly the Gazans may have miscalculated.

    whembly (5f7596)

  5. Hamas is another militant Islamist group, not so different from the Taliban or al Qaeda or the Islamic State or al Shebab or Boko Haram, and we’ve seen this brutality time and again for the last two decades.
    There should be no surprises as to what these barbarians are capable of, and Russian brutality is scarcely different (except they don’t do suicide bombings).

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  6. Hamas’s atrocities have become a propaganda tool:

    A video of a Hamas gunman firing his assault rifle at a car full of Israeli civilians was viewed more than one million times on X, the platform formerly known as Twitter, since it was uploaded Sunday.

    A photograph of dead Israeli civilians, strewn across the side of a road in an Israeli kibbutz near the Gaza Strip, has been shared more than 20,000 times on X.

    And an audio recording of a young Israeli woman’s desperate cries for help as she was being kidnapped from her home has been shared nearly 50,000 times on the platform.

    Since Hamas launched a deadly cross-border attack into Israel over the weekend, violent videos and graphic images have flooded social media. Many of the posts have been seeded by Hamas to terrorize civilians and take advantage of the lack of content moderation on some social media sites — particularly X and Telegram — according to a Hamas official and social media experts interviewed by The New York Times.
    ……….
    The issue has sprouted anew in the past week, particularly on X, where safety and content moderation teams have largely disbanded under Elon Musk’s ownership, and on Telegram, the messaging platform which does virtually no content moderation.

    Israeli groups who monitor social media for hate speech and disinformation said graphic imagery often starts on Telegram. It then moves to X before finding its way to other social media sites.

    “Twitter, or X as they are now called, has become a war zone with no ethics,” said Achiya Schatz, director of FakeReporter, an Israeli organization that monitors disinformation and hate speech. “In the information war being fought, it is now a place where you just go and do whatever you want.”
    ……….
    He added that platforms like Facebook, YouTube and TikTok had been responsive about removing graphic images and misinformation, although the companies were being inundated with requests.
    ……….
    Nora Benavidez, senior counsel at Free Press, a media advocacy group, said the state of discourse on X during the conflict was “the terrible but natural consequence of 11 months of misguided Musk decisions.”
    ……….

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  7. Hamas sent gruesome pictures and claims of cruelty to family members of victims using captured cell phones. The Israeli government is deliberately trying to limit the circulation of most of them, probably on the theory that they can be traumatizing.

    Children have been told not to use Tik-Tok and Instagram and even Zoom, for some reason, has been replaced by other services for schoolwork (most schools are closed) I suppose that would be because a captured cellphone of a victim might get information how to log in to a zoom session.

    Hamas wants to make sure that Israel has no thoughts about seeking an end to war. It’s very important to Hamas (and Iran) that Israel be an implacable enemy.

    Sammy Finkelman (c5132f)

  8. whembly (5f7596) — 10/11/2023 @ 11:22 am

    The formation of the unity government and war cabinet spells out just how badly the Gazans may have miscalculated.

    It’s a partial government, A small security cabinet of 5 is formed for war matters with three voting members. – the rest of the government continues the same. Benny Gantz has joined – Yair Lapid has yet to decide.

    https://www.newser.com/story/341258/israel-forms-an-emergency-wartime-government.html?utm_source=part&utm_medium=uol&utm_campaign=rss_top

    Sammy Finkelman (c5132f)

  9. Even as just a partial government, Sammy, this is huge, it signals that both major parties are behind the war and support it, and that opposition to the war is an extreme minority position.

    Hamas is not going to survive this intact.

    aphrael (680200)

  10. This took place in a small area — perhaps the size of the average American county. In the space of a day — a holy day to many Jews — 2,000 psychopaths set out to kill as many Jews as possible.

    Let’s say it was Thanksgiving Day in your local area, and 2,000 folks with automatic weapons set out to kill as many of your neighbors as possible. Police are mostly at home, hospitals are understaffed, and these monsters are killing people by the dozen, shooting up families gathered together or on the road to grandma’s house. Women, children, infants, everyone they could kill, they killed.

    Think of this when you hear someone criticizing the Israeli reaction.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  11. Were I the head of a US college and students cheered this barbarity, I would treat them as if they had attended a Klan rally in front of the Black Student’s Union. Expulsion with prejudice.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  12. Meanwhile, Biden’s people now insist that Iran had nothing to do with it, and are proceeding to release those ransom funds.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  13. captured cellphone of a victim might get information how to log in to a zoom session.

    Zoom provides a video-call facility, just like Facetime.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  14. Zoom provides a video-call facility, just like Facetime.

    Ooops. Misread. I was thinking Whatsapp.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  15. Hamas is another militant Islamist group, not so different from the Taliban or al Qaeda or the Islamic State or al Shebab or Boko Haram, and we’ve seen this brutality time and again for the last two decades.

    You keep saying this, and it remains untrue. They are the legitimate government of the Gaza subdivision of the State of Palestine, recognized by numerous countries (map image).

    They are a state actor, just as if they ran, say, Scotland.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  16. Yair Lapid has yet to decide.

    Sammy Finkelman (c5132f) — 10/11/2023 @ 2:42 pm

    What I’ve been reading since hours after the massacre is that Lapid is conditioning his participation on the exclusion of Smotrich and Ben-Gvir. I’d be delighted if Bibi agreed to that, but I very much doubt he will.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  17. Egypt and jordan warned Israel of comming attack but netanyahu ignored it calling it only drills so he didn’t have to move troops from his settlements that he his building for his voters. congressman mccaul.

    asset (9b0237)

  18. Over at ace they are using the baby killings for their anti-abortion raving. Remember this when you accuse the left of using the news. Both sides do it.

    asset (9b0237)

  19. Should your colleague Rashida Tlaib still have the Palestinian flag outside her office?”

    Democrat Rep. Steny Hoyer: “I fly a Danish flag at my house” pic.twitter.com/V7su2gDlFB

    — RNC Research (@RNCResearch) October 11, 2023

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  20. Added to the post:

    Another question I would ask is: Is it more palatable to these doubters and deniers if the babies had their necks slit, were thrown to their deaths, or smothered? Does that make their murders any less evil? Or is the unspeakably horrific just that? There is an inability to look at evil and call it what it is. But we must. Without fail.

    Dana (7bf3c6)

  21. They are a state actor, just as if they ran, say, Scotland.

    So what.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  22. Kevin, there’s not a dime’s worth of difference between Hamas and the Taliban.

    Dana, even Biden confirmed that Israeli children and babies were beheaded.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  23. Non-censorship is hard-ball reality. If you need proof of man’s depravity, total freedom of expression is how you remove the mask of civilization. Children should not be allowed to explore social media unattended/unsupervised anymore than children should be allowed to explore the world unattended/unsupervised.

    I know it is tempting to cite the real-world use of policing and the wish to apply those principles to social media. We have already seen the abuse of the police state in the real-world application and have already seen similar abuses online.

    What a piece of work is man.

    To quote happyfeet, “this is obvious to anyone willing to do the analysis.”

    felipe (5e2a04)

  24. Kevin, there’s not a dime’s worth of difference between Hamas and the Taliban.

    Hamas is more brutal of late. But yes, they are both state actors. Note aside: I advocated declaring war on Afghanistan after 9/11.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  25. There is not a dime’s worth of difference between Hamas and the Nazi death squads — Reserve Police Battalion 101, the Einsatzgruppen, and the Kaminski Brigade. This “attack” was a pogrom and its sole purpose was to kill Jews.

    And I doubt that there are any Israelis who do not know of Heinrich Himmler’s Operation Harvest Festival (Sukkot is a harvest festival) in which 42,000 Jews were killed in the space of two days.

    nk (42c90e)

  26. @felipe@23 “Children should not be allowed to explore social media unattended/unsupervised anymore than children should be allowed to explore the world unattended/unsupervised.”

    Try convincing parents that they need to limit their children’s access to tiktok, insta, youtube, etc. I will gift you with almost 2 decades of knowledge and tell you that most of them have decided it’s too much trouble or will limit them too much socially.

    Nic (896fdf)

  27. “The U.S. conducts prisoner swaps. Only recently, it did one with Iran. Why wouldn’t it conduct a prisoner swap with us?”

    Looks like Hamas knows exactly what sort of administration it’s going up against.

    lloyd (610dcb)

  28. I was surprised that Hamas was so brazen about it. I think Hamas went into their attack not caring what the west thought, but instead were creating literal red meat content for their base.
    So far it looks like a miscalculation, but if Hamas can outlast western support of Israel they have a shot at winning the Islamist Award of “best use of barbarism, martydom to bring about subservience of the infidel”

    steveg (136cd7)

  29. @23 when the censors stop using that as an ecuse and every thing else to censor adults will talk.

    asset (021a57)

  30. Bibi has a problem if he calls congreman mccaul a liar and hopes he doesn’t show proof that egypt and jordan warned israel about pending attack and not re-enforcing gaza with troops guarding settlement construction. Netanyahu hamas is just drilling so no re-enforcments. If Bibi admits it his government will collapse.

    asset (021a57)

  31. I’ve read that Israel was warned of and had their own intel of possible plans by Hamas and Hezbollah to take Israeli hostages during the holy days… problem is they get that warning every holy holiday for the pat decades. Human behavior in this sense is predictable

    steveg (136cd7)

  32. So, Erdogan calls the Israeli response a “massacre.” Why is Turkey in NATO again?

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  33. Mark levin takes his head out of netanyahu’s rear end long enough to attack congressman mccaul as a anti-semetic fool for question his dear friend netanyahu. Who would never ever lie.

    asset (021a57)

  34. The pictures, (and Biden probably also saw them) whatever they were, were so personally affected by seeing them that Biden Administration National Security Council spokesman John Kirby almost couldn’t hold back tears.

    https://nypost.com/2023/10/09/biden-admin-official-gets-choked-up-discussing-hamas-atrocities-in-israel

    National Security Council spokesman John Kirby choked up while discussing brutal images out of Israel showing atrocities committed by Hamas terrorists in the Jewish state.

    The White House official was nearly at a loss for words Monday when asked by CNN host Jake Tapper about the images of children being kidnapped, women that have presumably been raped, and other “horrifying” scenes in the aftermath of Hamas’ Saturday invasion of the border between Gaza and Israel.

    “I, uh, I — sorry. It’s very — excuse me,” Kirby, visibly shaken, said as he tried to compose himself.

    “It’s very difficult to look at these images, Jake, and the human cost. These are human beings. They’re family members, they’re friends, they’re loved ones, cousins, brothers, sisters. Yeah, it’s difficult and I apologize,” he added.

    “Nothing to say sorry for,” Tapper reassured the Biden administration official.

    Link to X (TWitter) post that links to CNN video:

    https://twitter.com/NatashaBertrand/status/1711479655427952963?s=20

    Sammy Finkelman (828d12)

  35. Why is Turkey in NATO again?

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/11/2023 @ 9:54 pm

    Turkey is the Amazon Hub Locker for our South European nukes. Besides, if Erdogan wasn’t a swell guy, would President Donald Trump have let the Turks pay him for slapping his name on the classiest office building east of Trump Tower? I think not. That’s a privilege reserved only for countries led by the handsomest, most benevolent despots.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  36. “Turkey is the Amazon Hub Locker for our South European nukes.”

    Good one

    steveg (462584)

  37. Turkey is in NATO because it has the physical power to control the Bosporus (even though there are serious treaty restrictions on its use of that power), and so having it be part of NATO was an important part of NATO’s mission to contain the Soviets.

    It hasn’t done anything to justify getting kicked out.

    aphrael (680200)

  38. I’m guessing some our US anti- Israel elites huddled with Hamas leadership in Qatar scolding them to focus group western reactions BEFORE beheading babies.

    steveg (462584)

  39. “The U.S. conducts prisoner swaps. Only recently, it did one with Iran. Why wouldn’t it conduct a prisoner swap with us?”

    Looks like Hamas knows exactly what sort of administration it’s going up against.

    lloyd (610dcb) — 10/11/2023 @ 7:48 pm

    It’s also official (and historical) Israeli policy to do so.

    The official policy of the Israeli government regarding missing soldiers is that, “The Government will do everything in its power to secure the release of POW’s and MIA’s and anyone who acted on behalf of state security, and to bring them home.”

    Even though the government refuses officially to negotiate with terrorists, it has on several occasions entered into indirect talks to bring back its kidnapped soldiers. Israel has engaged in prisoner exchanges with both Arab nations and terrorist groups, sometimes releasing thousands of prisoners in exchange for a few soldiers.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  40. America, fortunately or fortunately, has a unique viewpoint, exceptional, about international friendships and alliances that is distinctly different from the Europeans and Asians.

    To us, when become best friends, we become best friends forever. To them, it’s only as long as it’s convenient.

    We used to be like them up, too. Up to to the time we took Oklahoma back from the Indians, I would say. (A good thing, too, or the Cimarron Strip could have been our Gaza Strip, but that’s not important now.)

    But we grew away from it, fortunately or unfortunately, while our “friends” and “allies” have not. Ergo, Turkey, and Hungary, and Slovakia, and any other two-timer of your choice.

    nk (d944ac)

  41. steveg (136cd7) — 10/11/2023 @ 8:17 pm

    I was surprised that Hamas was so brazen about it. I think Hamas went into their attack not caring what the west thought, but instead were creating literal red meat content for their base.

    Nom it was fir Israel.

    The difference with the Nazis is that Nazis didn’t want the Jews to resist or avoid them, while Hamas wants Israel to fight them.

    Probably Iran has further plans which are no good.

    Sammy Finkelman (828d12)

  42. https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/press-briefings/2023/10/10/virtual-on-the-record-gaggle-by-nsc-coordinator-for-strategic-communications-john-kirby-on-hamas-terrorist-attacks-in-israel/

    MR. KIRBY: I think you can understand I wouldn’t get into the details of intelligence sharing with Israel. We — we have a strong intel-sharing relationship. We are obviously improving and sharpening that here in the wake of these attacks, and I can’t go into more detail on that.

    I don’t — I won’t get into the specific intelligence about Hamas’s preparations in planning and resourcing for this. I would just say what I said before: We have not seen any specific, tangible piece of evidence or fact that points directly to Iranian participation in these sets of attacks.

    Q Right. So, Admiral, does that mean the Wall Street Journal report was incorrect?

    MR. KIRBY: That means that we cannot corroborate the reporting in the Wall Street Journal. We are obviously looking at this. Our Israeli counterparts are looking at it, and they too have said publicly that they cannot point to specific Iranian involvement in these sets of attacks over the weekend.

    So, again, you know, we’ll just keep at it. We’ll just have to keep at the work.

    And then on the other question about Hezbollah: Nobody wants to see the — this conflict broaden or deepen or grow or escalate. I can’t speak for what Hezbollah may or may not do. They’ve already launched rockets in there. They have said confusing things about their intentions. On one hand, saying that, you know, obviously they support what Hamas has done. On the other hand, saying they have no interest in getting involved unless Gaza is invaded by — by the IDF.

    I can’t — I can’t hypothesize about where this might go, but clearly, we don’t — we don’t want to see it escalate.

    And look, one of the reasons why the President directed the Defense Department to move additional military forces in and around and near the region is to send a strong message of deterrence that no other actor, no other nation-state, no other group ought to be looking at this as a chance to take advantage.

    Sammy Finkelman (828d12)

  43. It hasn’t done anything to justify getting kicked out.

    It has done plenty, but you’re right about the Bosphorus. Were it not that, it would be long gone. We could store nukes anywhere. Poland, for example, would love to have them.

    Besides supporting Hamas, even now, Erdogan absolutely fu**ed the US in 2003, when it reneged on allowing the already-deployed 4th U.S. Infantry Division to open a northern front in Iraq. This allowed the Iraqi army to regroup in the north, rather than smashing against a norther pincer and cost the US many many lives.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  44. My plan for thanking Turkey has always been establishing a Kurdish state in Northern Syria and Iraq.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  45. Up to to the time we took Oklahoma back from the Indians

    Hmmmn. Over half the land in OK is tribal jurisdiction. More than any other state, although NM and AZ have a lot, too. Still, it’s not what it once was.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  46. The reason that the State Department cannot corroborate the WSJ report is that they don’t want to, so they throw shade on everything that might.

    The Biden folks are upset with Hamas, not for all the murdering, but for upsetting their grand plan for Iran, Saudi etc. Because Biden really, really, needed a foreign policy “win” and this just makes them look like dodos. Again.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  47. #45 “in Northern Syria and Iraq. And in western Iran.

    Jim Miller (d48608)

  48. Calling this a significant intelligence failure tends to oversimplify the intelligence challenge….and discounts the counter-intelligence responses. It’s hard to have someone in every rat hole and terrorists understand the vulnerability of most communication IT. Sometimes bad guys win. Study, learn, and continue to evolve techniques. Is the implication that Trump’s team would have sniffed this out? That seems like a stretch without some clear evidence of malfeasance.

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  49. Nic (896fdf) — 10/11/2023 @ 7:40 pm

    Quite right, nic, quite right! I will gift you 4 additional decades of experience where this still held true in my long-gone days of parental/child-rearing observations. The tech is different, but the complacence is the same.

    Even with the massive foundation of extended families, multi-generations in one house, you still get numb-skulls (like my own beloved parents) who would think nothing of giving us children money to buy explosives, knives, and we were “good” as long as we kept it outside.

    On the flip-side, back then, parents – all parents – kept an eye out for all small children. I lost count of the times a neighbor tanned my hide when I tried something that would have killed someone, only to have it re-tanned by my mother when I foolishly tried to “report her.”

    felipe (5e2a04)

  50. Retanned? That’s not a word.

    Sammy Finkelman (7a85f9)

  51. Retanned? That’s not a word.
    Sammy Finkelman (7a85f9) — 10/12/2023 @ 1:32 pm

    Ha, Sammy. “Ain’t” ‘twertn’t a word either – at one time.

    “We are the makers of style,” – Will i am Shakespeare

    felipe (9bcc73)

  52. 46. Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/12/2023 @ 10:34 am

    The reason that the State Department cannot corroborate the WSJ report is that they don’t want to, so they throw shade on everything that might.

    They don’t have the human intelligence that the Wall Street Journal has. They can’t go and ask members of Hezbollah or Syrian officials questions.

    Now sources are telling the United States that while Iran knew the attack was coming, they didn’t know the date or the scale.

    https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/iran-knew-hamas-was-planning-attacks-but-not-timing-or-scale-u-s-says-d8c669f1

    Tehran’s leaders were surprised, according to U.S. intelligence

    I doubt that. If it included the Supernova music festival it had to be on that date. Besides it was a Saturday and a Jewish holiday (largely unobserved in the traditional manner by their targets)

    More from the new article by the Wall Street Journal:

    Tehran likely knew Hamas was planning operations against Israel but didn’t know the precise timing or scope of the surprise attack the group mounted last week, according to a preliminary unclassified assessment by U.S. intelligence agencies.

    The judgment by the American intelligence community represents an initial effort to determine what role Iran might have played in an attack that has sent shock waves through the region.

    The assessment also notes that U.S. intelligence agencies haven’t reached a definitive conclusion and will be looking in coming weeks at whether some in the regime might have had knowledge of what was being planned or helped direct the attacks.

    “We have not currently seen anything to suggest Iran supported or was behind the attack,” said a U.S. official who shared the assessment.

    Shared it with the Wall Street Journal. It has human intelligence not just in Hezbollah but also in the United States government. The WSJ was told unclassified information that did not discuss any October 2 meeting in Beirut. Shades of the Benghazi talking points!

    I think it was President Kennedy who said after the Bay of Pigs that he got better information from I think the New York Times, (or was it the Herald Tribune?) than from the CIA.

    More: from the WSJ:

    ]“Our experience tells us though that it is premature to draw any final conclusion on the issue.”

    Covering all bases.

    Sammy Finkelman (7a85f9)

  53. Kevin M:

    The Biden folks are upset with Hamas, not for all the murdering, but for upsetting their grand plan for Iran, Saudi etc. Because Biden really, really, needed a foreign policy “win” and this just makes them look like dodos. Again.

    It may be something more serious than that. Probably the result of Iran having moles in the U.S. government, which they are trying to cover up and not willing to acknowledging even to themselves/

    https://www.amimagazine.org/2023/09/06/is-there-a-mole-in-the-state-department

    “This latest chapter raises serious questions about how the regime obtained this potentially authentic document and what other sensitive or classified information they may have. The State Department needs to do a top to bottom security review, because I am concerned they have a leak.”

    — House Foreign Affairs Committee Chairman Rep. Michael McCaul (R-TX), in a statement about the publishing of a purported State Department memo informing US special envoy Robert Malley that his security clearance was being suspended during an investigation.

    It’s bad enough for a senior government official to have his security clearance pulled because of questions about his behavior. For a newspaper that serves as a mouthpiece for a foreign government to know more about it than anyone else is much worse.

    That appears to be the case in regard to the ongoing saga of the security clearance of Robert Malley, the Biden administration’s special envoy for Iran. In truth, however, we don’t know exactly what is going on, because the administration won’t say anything—which is making Congress, or at least congressional Republicans, angry.

    Robert Malley has long been considered by many supporters of Israel to be antagonistic to Israel and therefore a problematic choice for the special envoy job, since so many of the threats of the Iranian regime are aimed at Israel. Malley has been in favor of dialogue with terrorist groups that have vowed to destroy Israel, such as Hamas and Hezbollah, as well as with Syrian President Bashar Assad.

    The fact that Malley has been on leave from his position as special envoy since June 29 has raised questions about whether his behavior has been worse than simply advocating for dialogue with terrorists. But a weird aspect of the case is that it seems that the best information about it is coming straight from Tehran.

    It’s not just Malley, who’s been sidelined. He also recommended a few people for other positions.

    This could be the worst penetration of the U.S> government since Alger Hiss and Harry Dexter White. Mike Flynn never had much influence.. Obama fired him without resolving the question and then later couldn’t explain to Trump why he didn’t want him to be appointed National Security Adviser. The FBI later succeeded in forcing Trump to fire him by proving that he lied to Mike Pence.

    And in 2019, Russian agents who talked to Giuliani did not succeed in cutting off U.S. aid to Ukraine for more than 55 days. As soon as Adam Schiff managed to get it out in the form of a whistleblower complaint, Trump lifted his secret Hold.

    Sammy Finkelman (7a85f9)

  54. Felipe: I don’t know what you mean. Are you saying you were whipped on your back (by a belt?) first by a neighbor and then by your mother? Or maybe tanned might include both with a belt and without one.

    Sammy Finkelman (7a85f9)

  55. The Wall Street Journal’s original report:

    They said their sources (in Dubai) were “senior members of Hamas and Hezbollah” and “A European official and an adviser to the Syrian government” (two people or one person?)

    Some people anyway seemed interested in claiming credit, or maybe told the story with some wrong details.

    The only named source, Mahmoud Mirdawi, “a senior Hamas official” who was evidently asked about this later, denied Iranian involvement and said they planed this on their own and “This is a Palestinian and Hamas decision”

    I think what this might be is this is what was internally circulated within the terror organizations, to their mid level people in Dubai and elsewhere. Some facts must have been changed or altered and some people or countries protected. There must be some secrets they kept from middle management.

    https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/iran-israel-hamas-strike-planning-bbe07b25

    Officers of Iran’s Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps had worked with Hamas since August to devise the air, land and sea incursions—the most significant breach of Israel’s borders since the 1973 Yom Kippur War—those people said.

    Details of the operation were refined during several meetings in Beirut attended by IRGC officers and representatives of four Iran-backed militant groups, including Hamas, which holds power in Gaza, and Hezbollah, a Shiite militant group and political faction in Lebanon, they said.

    Sammy Finkelman (7a85f9)

  56. I knew I should have waited for independent confirmation of the beheadings claims- and didn’t.
    Apologies.

    steveg (462584)

  57. @56

    I knew I should have waited for independent confirmation of the beheadings claims- and didn’t.
    Apologies.

    steveg (462584) — 10/12/2023 @ 2:37 pm

    ???

    It was confirmed that it happened by multiple different sources.

    whembly (5f7596)

  58. There are pictures but the only one Netanyahu released was a child’s small bed or big crib where there was no body left but only bloodied bed coverings.

    This happened in at least one kibbutz. It is not that it happened everywhere Haas went.

    Sammy Finkelman (7a85f9)

  59. Tehran’s leaders were surprised, according to U.S. intelligence

    Plausible deniability. The IRG was in on the planning but didn’t tell the mullahs what the mullahs didn’t want to know.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  60. It is not that it happened everywhere Haas went.

    Some places they only had machine guns, not machetes.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  61. I mean they didn’t do beheadings every place.

    One group of Hamas members even took a captive woman and her children across the border and then abandoned them so they escaped.

    Another had a family and shot the teenage daughter telling her siblings she was now in heaven..

    There was lots of shooting to kill and much less taking prisoner. Also killing people in cars on the road.

    Sammy Finkelman (7a85f9)

  62. Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/12/2023 @ 3:07 pm

    y. The IRG was in on the planning but didn’t tell the mullahs what the mullahs didn’t want to know.

    That could be. It could also be the mullahs in question are lying. Who does the IRG report to, anyway?

    Sammy Finkelman (7a85f9)

  63. Sammy Finkelman (7a85f9) — 10/12/2023 @ 2:12 pm

    Yes, Sammy. “Tanned” refers to being spanked on the bottom with a belt/switch/ hand, whatever was on-hand (literally). “Re-tanned” is a repeat beating in a similar manner. This was a common practice not too different (from a child’s perspective) from the Spartan Agoge.

    It certainly felt like martial training – with older brothers counseling the younger with advice on taking blows, avoiding blows, and taking one’s punishment well. “Agoge” is correct in spirit, because none of my sisters were ever given corporal punishment.

    When they misbehaved, they were given a lecture. Prolly because they, being sensible, were correctable, needing only words, while we boys were more like donkeys; stubborn and headstrong.

    My favorite method to deal with a spanking was to wail out loud as though my life were ending. This worked better on my Mother than on my Father. Heh, my Father fell for my acting only once. I learned quickly not to play on his sympathies.

    Every boy I knew had stories of this nature to share. I’ll bet my good friend nk has some stories as well. Only because he strikes me as a formidable man.

    I remember when “A Christmas Story” came out, All my siblings laughed at the scene when Ralphy bore false witness against his innocent classmate when his mother asked “where did you hear that word!?” And he responded “My friend x.”

    His mother calls his innocent friend’s mother and informs her of her son’s misdemeanor and we hear the boys loud wailing through the phone’s earpiece! My sibling all agreed “That’s Felipe’s wailing!”

    This must sound like Stockholm syndrome to this generation.

    felipe (9bcc73)

  64. If it’s electronic intelligence I am sure parts of the government of Iran did not know what was in store.

    Sammy Finkelman (7a85f9)

  65. steveg (462584) — 10/12/2023 @ 2:37 pm

    Well done, steveg. It was unfathomable. Give steveg a break, Whembly. Apologies are hard to come by on the net, and it seems only the best will own up to such as this.

    felipe (9bcc73)

  66. @48 That is not what happened. Israel was warned by Egypt and Jordan that attack was coming confirmed by members of congress. Mccaul for one. Netanyahu refuse to send more soldiers to gaza to protect settlement construction so his coalition members don’t fold his government saying hamas was only drilling.

    asset (b9371b)

  67. Thanks Felipe.
    I made a mistake in not waiting for independent verification and whembly is entitled to his opinion about that

    steveg (462584)

  68. Hamas Militants Had Detailed Maps of Israeli Towns, Military Bases and Infiltration Routes

    Hamas militants who flooded into southern Israel from Gaza last weekend carried detailed maps of the towns and military bases that they targeted. Some also carried tactical guides identifying weak spots on Israeli army armored vehicles.

    The documents, written in Arabic, were recovered from the sites of attacks or bodies of dead Hamas fighters by Israeli civilians, soldiers and emergency personnel and seen by The Wall Street Journal. Authorities are examining the trove, Israeli officials said.

    Taken together, the documents indicate that Hamas set out from the start to target not just military installations, but to attack civilian population centers and to take hostages, and they offer evidence of the scale of Hamas’s intelligence-gathering and the degree of planning for the assault.
    ……….
    “They knew exactly what the targets were going to be,’” said Michael Milshtein, a former Israeli military intelligence officer and head of Palestinian Studies Forum at Tel Aviv University. “There is nothing close to this level of planning in any steps Hamas had done in the past.”

    One 14-page document labeled “top secret” in Arabic and dated June 15, 2023 describes a plan for infiltrating Mefalsim, a small collective community called a kibbutz, near Gaza and taking residents hostage.

    Two teams of five and a commander would carry out the operation on “Hour S, Day Y,” it reads. Maps and aerial pictures of the town were contained in the document, which says there were 1,000 “civilians” guarded by a volunteer security force.

    It warned that Israeli troops stationed nearby could arrive at Mefalsim “within 3-5 minutes.” Members of the assault team were designated to open holes in a security fence, while others were to provide “artillery” fire, the document says. Once inside the force would take prisoners and hold them as hostages “for negotiations,” the plan reads.
    ……….
    “It shows sophistication, systematic intelligence collection, use of human sources, use of open intelligence sources and information obtained through cyberattacks,” said Eyal Pinko, a former security services officer, of the Hamas plan for Mefalsim.
    ……….
    In another sign of sophisticated preparations, Hamas used drones to drop grenades on Israel’s observation towers and remotely-operated machine guns, apparently depriving Israeli soldiers of at least parts of the extensive infrastructure for monitoring the border and responding to breaches of the security fence around Gaza.

    A video released by Hamas less than two hours after the initial attack began on Oct. 7 and independently verified by the Journal showed a drone flying over a tower along the Gaza fence and dropping a bomb on an unmanned machine gun.
    ………..

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  69. Every boy I knew had stories of this nature to share. I’ll bet my good friend nk has some stories as well.

    Not me. Nobody in my family thought spanking was a good thing. The rule was: “You don’t hit children”. And generally shared by our neighbors as well. A loss of temper followed by a slap was something to be regretted and even ashamed of.

    nk (ad6977)

  70. @felip@63 Still happens today, more than you’d think. Mostly we hear about it from a friend’s concerned parents, though, and the kids don’t admit it because they know we have to report.

    Nic (896fdf)

  71. Israel state media admits egypt warned Israel 3 days before attack on thursday. The day before Israel was attacked it got information and saw signs of attack. ;but know action was taken by government of Israel 3 Israeli officers admit. (axios)

    asset (36a3de)

  72. Nic

    I was one of those kids who, when hit for nonsense, or punished beyond level of crime, would go out and demonstrate what a real reason to hit someone might look like.

    steveg (462584)

  73. Regarding collective punishment, I wasn’t aware of siege warfare doctrine, where it actually is okay to cut off water and electricity, but with some caveats, noted here.

    There is also the unique military legal doctrine of siege warfare. On Monday, Israel announced a “complete siege” and said that “no electricity, no food, no water, no fuel” would be allowed inside the Gaza Strip. A siege is an ancient form of warfare, and the modern legal obligations of a besieging party are a matter of dispute, but again, “The Law of Land Warfare” is instructive. It explicitly declares it “lawful” to cut off “reinforcements, supplies and communications,” but it also states that the belligerents should “make reasonable, good-faith efforts to conclude local agreements for the removal of wounded, sick, infirm and aged persons, children and maternity cases from the besieged or encircled area.”

    In effect, Israel should provide some form of corridor for vulnerable civilians to leave the territory. If they don’t, it’s a breach of the laws of war. Egypt is guilty of this because they’ve closed off the border. Hamas would also be guilty if they prevent those civilians from leaving, and it’s probable Hamas will breach this law, too.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  74. Hamas leadership lives in Qatar and easy to do whatever too. Will it be done?

    asset (36a3de)

  75. @steveg@72 Most of my students haven’t hit the anger point yet. Mostly they are still small and sad and afraid. They aren’t big enough yet or angry enough yet to really lash out, though some of them have already learned to just stop being present. It really bothers our current VP because she can tell and she’s been in education long enough to know what it means, but you can’t call CPS and say “I was being stern with this kid and they just weren’t there any more. Their body was there, but the kid was gone, please help them.” (and really CPS isn’t the greatest solution either. We had one person who was a regular foster parent who was so creepy and we used to call social services and tell them there was something wrong with this guy and they shouldn’t give him kids any more, but they still did. We later found out that he would call the moms up and extort sex out of them in return for being able to see their kid. He only took boys and I wouldn’t be surprised to hear, in 5 or 10 years, that he was sexually abusing them too.)

    Nic (896fdf)

  76. nk (ad6977) — 10/12/2023 @ 5:59 pm

    Good morning, nk! This is the day the Lord has made, let us rejoice and be glad.

    No doubt there were/are many families just like yours. Strangely, you sound like any one of my sisters. First, I want to stress that this is not some dig at you, or anyone out there. I am just relating the truth of my own family. Ok, here goes.

    Remember I said that none of my sisters were ever given corporal punishment? Well, to hear them tell it, There was no tolerance for such barbarity in my family, nor was it ever heard of in the neighborhood, even though they consoled us boys after our correction. I think we each see what we want, or maybe we remember what we want – interpreting and re-interpreting events as we revisit memories. Or maybe two things can be true, and my parents were justified in their dealings with each of us individually. Parents have a tough job that comes with no manual.

    I’ll tell you one more thing. I feel terrible for calling my parents “numb-skulls.” What a horrible thing to do, and it betrays a deep-seated conceit! My Father is still the wisest man I ever knew. My mother raised me and my siblings during some of the hardest times in anyone’s living memory. I take the Commandment “honor thy Father and thy Mother” seriously. I hereby repent of my behavior.

    felipe (9bcc73)

  77. Paul Montagu (d52d7d) — 10/12/2023 @ 10:32 pm

    Great comment, Paul. Thank you.

    felipe (9bcc73)

  78. On the flip-side, back then, parents – all parents – kept an eye out for all small children. I lost count of the times a neighbor tanned my hide when I tried something that would have killed someone, only to have it re-tanned by my mother when I foolishly tried to “report her.”
    felipe (5e2a04) — 10/12/2023 @ 12:00 pm

    Ok, I need to unpack this by removing some ambiguity.

    “small children” Does not refer to me! But to other children who, as bystanders, stood to suffer collateral damage from some stupid stunt such as placing a “big daddy” (cherry bomb/m-80 today) inside something which would result in shrapnel being produced. I had no idea what I was doing. Let me tell you, the punishments I received (even if not condoned) were condign!

    While I am at it, perhaps the neighborhood was on high-alert only because of me and my brothers! If I explained all the circumstances under which we were spanked, the spankers, all, would have been awarded medals for sparing the taxpayers the expense of future criminals. Parents for the win.

    Even today, I subconsciously try to minimize my culpability. So now you know the rest of the story.

    Ok, enough of ancient history.

    felipe (9bcc73)

  79. “What’s there to hit?” — nk’s father when the subject came up in conversation one time

    I know “spare the rod and spoil the child” has its origins in Proverbs 13:24, but I am more inclined to limit it to Genesis 38:9. (If you don’t immediately grasp the reference, it’s very easy to look it up.)

    Yes, parents are people, too, and they get angry, and tired, and worried, and overwhelmed, and lash out. But as a routine practice of child raising, corporal punishment is abhorrent to me.

    And I likewise praise the day and wish you a very good one, felipe.

    nk (094227)

  80. @67

    Thanks Felipe.
    I made a mistake in not waiting for independent verification and whembly is entitled to his opinion about that

    steveg (462584) — 10/12/2023 @ 3:58 pm

    I’m still not clear what you were mistaken on or what “opinion” of mine.

    I’m not trying to exact a pound of flesh here…

    whembly (5f7596)


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