Patterico's Pontifications

10/6/2023

Weekend Open Thread

Filed under: General — Dana @ 8:21 am



[guest post by Dana]

Let’s go!

First news item

No more Mr. Nice Guy:

A Saudi dairy company that grows hay in Southern California and Arizona for export to the Middle East is set to lose several leases that allow it to pump unlimited water from government-owned farmlands.

Arizona Gov. Katie Hobbs announced this week that the state has terminated one of the leases held by the company, Fondomonte, and will not renew three other leases when they expire in February.

Fondomonte, a subsidiary of the Saudi dairy company Almarai, also owns thousands of acres of farmland in Arizona and California, producing alfalfa that is shipped overseas to feed cows.

Second news item

Loose lips sink ships and we all know that the former President is not known for being discreet:

Months after leaving the White House, former President Donald Trump allegedly discussed potentially sensitive information about U.S. nuclear submarines with a member of his Mar-a-Lago Club — an Australian billionaire who then allegedly shared the information with scores of others, including more than a dozen foreign officials, several of his own employees, and a handful of journalists, according to sources familiar with the matter.

A few details from Anthony Pratt, the subject involved:

According to Pratt’s account, as described by the sources, Pratt told Trump he believed Australia should start buying its submarines from the United States, to which an excited Trump — “leaning” toward Pratt as if to be discreet — then told Pratt two pieces of information about U.S. submarines: the supposed exact number of nuclear warheads they routinely carry, and exactly how close they supposedly can get to a Russian submarine without being detected.

In emails and conversations after meeting with Trump, Pratt described Trump’s remarks to at least 45 others, including six journalists, 11 of his company’s employees, 10 Australian officials, and three former Australian prime ministers, the sources told ABC News.

Third news item

Will Californians’ increasing frustration about homelessness and property crime lead to the Golden State moving politically to the right? Some see the latest decision by the mayor of San Francisco as an indicator that it just might:

Last week in San Francisco, London Breed, the city’s mayor, announced a bill to deny welfare benefits to anyone “suffering from substance-use disorder” who was not enrolled in a drug rehabilitation or treatment program. “No more handouts without accountability,” Breed said. “In order to receive resources from our city, you will need to be in a substance-use-disorder program and consistently seeking treatment.”

And yet, let’s face it: voters in California aren’t known for the ability to put two and two together:

Up north, the recall of Chesa Boudin in San Francisco was supposed to be proof that voters in a famously liberal city had had enough, but soon after Boudin was recalled, Pamela Price, a fellow-progressive, was elected as the district attorney of Alameda County. Now Price herself is facing a similar recall campaign, which some would marshal as proof that “the wokes” have lost for good.

Fourth news item

Putin plays the waiting game:

“(Russian President Vladmir Putin) is losing the war because the Ukrainians are getting western equipment from the United States and (the European Union). But he continues to throw more and more men into battle to die,” said British financier and activist Bill Browder.

“Putin’s big bet is that he doesn’t have to win the war, he just has to outlast the patience of the West.

Meanwhile, next week’s vote for House speaker will impact future aid to Ukraine, given Reps. Steve Scalise and Jim Jordan’s opposing views of the issue. Scalise has supported additional aid to Ukraine, while Jordan has voiced his opposition to it.

Fifth news item

More horror in Ukraine:

A Russian missile strike killed at least 51 people, including a child, in a village near the eastern Ukrainian city of Kupiansk on Thursday, officials say, in one of the deadliest attacks against civilians since the conflict began.

Moscow’s forces targeted a cafe and a shop in Hroza, in the Kharkiv region, soon after midday local time, according to Ukrainian Interior Minister Ihor Klymenko.

Kasparov unloads in response:

This is murder. This is Russia’s attempt to eradicate the Ukrainian state and the Ukrainian people. While Scholz refuses to provide weapons Ukraine could use to defend itself by striking military targets, the Russian terror state continues to strike civilians. Cowardly Western politicians are more worried about hypothetical Russian military targets than about real Ukrainian civilians. There will be no peace until Ukraine is whole and free, and the only way that can happen is for Ukraine to win this war as quickly as possible. Biden, Scholz, all the rest withholding the weapons Ukraine needs to stop this slaughter: Stop protecting a terror state. Stop siding with the terrorists because you still think you can make deals with Putin. Be on the right side of history now and save more lives. When in history has anyone regretted acting more quickly to prevent terror and genocide? No, the regrets always come after doing too little, too late. Ukraine is already paying the price in blood, fighting the war NATO was created for alone. Stop dreaming there is a way back with Putin, that Cold War-style great power deals can or should happen. Russia is a terrorist mafia and must be defeated, not bargained with. Concessions and negotiations with Russia are only death by another name and Ukraine has bled enough.

Sixth news item

Black musician David Ryan Harris was accused of child trafficking while on an American Airlines flight:

The singer-songwriter, who is Black and was traveling with his two biracial children, questioned whether the incident was an instance of racial profiling, which he said had left him “shocked and humiliated.”

Shortly before landing, a flight attendant had asked his children for their names. His 7-year-old, who Harris said is shy and was tired from a 4 a.m. start time to catch their early flight, didn’t immediately respond, instead looking toward Harris. “One of them is pretty shy — I always have to tell him, ‘Hey buddy, tell the guy your name, shake his hand, look him in the eye,’ and quite frankly he doesn’t owe that to anyone,” he said of his son Hendrix.

The airline has since offered Harris an apology:

This week, American Airlines issued its apology to Harris — who has toured with John Mayer and performed with the Dave Matthews Band and Carlos Santana — nearly three weeks after the incident. The airline said that the flight attendant did not follow policies on identifying possible signs of human trafficking.

Three weeks later…

Seventh news item

Side v. Position:

Instead of sides, we need to speak, and think, in terms of positions. On any given issue, there are almost always more than two. But adopting a position is very different than choosing a side. It takes thought; it takes investigation; it takes a willingness to consider alternatives. Sides are intellectually easy and emotionally satisfying. Positions are intellectually challenging and emotionally complex. Once you know which side you’re on—in the culture war, or the political war—you can let your friends, or your podcasts, do your thinking for you. But “positions” requires you not only to think things through for yourself, but to think each issue through on its own terms, from the ground up.

Great reminder.

Eighth news item

A resolution celebrating Pride Month and affirming support for the LGBTQ community was unanimously passed by the Los Angeles Unified Board of Education in June 2022. Thus, the week of Oct. 5-9 has been designated as the period of time LAUSD schools – including elementary schools – will celebrate ‘National Coming Out Day’. You can read the resolution here. You can view the Week of Action Toolkit for Elementary Students provided to teachers here. They just keep giving parents of young children more reasons to to opt out of public education.

Have a great weekend.

—Dana

762 Responses to “Weekend Open Thread”

  1. Happy Friday!

    Dana (932d71)

  2. RIP Pro Football Hall of Famer (of “Da Bears”) Dick Butkus (80):

    ………
    Butkus became a Bears legend and Pro Football Hall of Famer in his nine-year career, which started in 1965. The middle linebacker was a vicious tackler whose intimidating presence put some players on their heels before the ball was even snapped.
    …………
    Hall of Fame defensive end Deacon Jones once called Butkus a “maniac” and “well-conditioned animal.” Butkus appeared to want to send a message with every tackle.

    “I want to just let ’em know that they’ve been hit, and when they get up, they don’t have to look to see who it was that hit ’em,” Butkus once told NFL Films. “It shouldn’t be any puzzle. When they come to, they got to say, ‘It must’ve been Butkus that got me.'”

    In a game against the rival Green Bay Packers during the 1970 season, Butkus and teammate Willie Holman hit quarterback Bart Starr so hard Starr lost his helmet and began walking toward the wrong bench.
    ………….
    Butkus finished his career with 1,020 tackles and 22 interceptions. He was named first team All-Pro five times, won the George Halas Award in 1974 and was elected to the Pro Football Hall of Fame in his first year of eligibility in 1979.
    ………….
    Butkus would hit runners high, wrap them up and drive them to the ground like a rag doll. Sports Illustrated once called him “The Most Feared Man in the Game.”

    When the Detroit Lions unveiled an I-formation against the Bears at old Tigers Stadium, Butkus knocked every member of the “I” — the center, quarterback, fullback and halfback — out of the game.
    …………..
    “I wouldn’t ever go out to hurt anybody deliberately,” Butkus once replied tongue-in-cheek when asked about his on-field reputation. “Unless it was, you know, important… like a league game or something.”
    …………..

    Rip Murdock (6afd61)

  3. I wonder when Californians will actually wake up. I’m not encouraged by the shallowness of their politics. Maybe when gasoline cars double in price in a few years due to mandated shortages (less than half of all new vehicles sold in 2028), or when gas is $5/gallon over the national average and hard to find.

    Or maybe it will be when they are taxed out of their socks to support the ever-growing “unhoused” population, or their kid’s schools drop the last college-track math classes in favor of more gender and ethnic studies, or their savings are taken by the state to pay for “reparations” for something Democrats did in the past.

    But I doubt it.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  4. Side v. Position

    Not likely. Our political system reinforces sides and makes “positions” unimportant. Until we have a system that allows a range of views in elected officials, rather than polar factions, no one will care about “positions.” For the most part, having a position at odds with one’s party is the kiss of death. A pro-life Democrat or a gun-control Republican is going to have a tough time.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  5. You may think “Oh, this is California, not here” but an increasing number of blue states are embracing the California EV mandate (see timeline chart). This will effect vehicle production nationwide, if not world wide. Maybe it will mean that all the gasoline cars go to red states, but it’s more likely that the CA schedule will effect everyone.

    ANd it’s incredibly silly because the massive demand for raw materials for these batteries will cause widespread envirronmental damage (think: strip mining in rainforests). A slower approach, aiming at fleetwide HEVs and PHEVs, would gain much of the desired greenhouse gas reduction without raping the Earth for nickel and cobalt.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  6. Sixth news item-

    If a stranger came up to my child and asked them their name, I would tell them they had five seconds to leave before things get really bad. This an example of governmental overreach-there must be a federal regulation involved somewhere.

    Stew-I mean, flight attendants-aren’t law enforcement investigators. They are there to ensure the comfort and safety of the passengers during the flight, not to determine if a crime is being committed.

    Rip Murdock (6afd61)

  7. Rip Murdock (6afd61) — 10/6/2023 @ 8:46 am

    Butkus would never survive in today’s NFL-too many rules.

    Rip Murdock (6afd61)

  8. That’s why I like professional wrestling. They know how to put on a show for the entertainment of assholes without hurting each other except by accident.

    nk (7cb873)

  9. Regarding the Saudis using Arizona water to grow the crops that feed Saudi cattle, they’re doing it this way because they’re forbidden to grow those crops on their soil, for conservation reasons, so they’re exploiting our water resources instead.

    Saudi Arabia, which has been dealing with its water scarcity challenges for the past decade, implemented restrictions on cultivating specific forage crops within its borders, particularly alfalfa.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  10. Here’s a classic Butkus exchange on Twitter.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  11. That’s why I like professional wrestling. They know how to put on a show for the entertainment of assholes without hurting each other except by accident.

    nk (7cb873) — 10/6/2023 @ 9:51 am

    That’s exactly why I don’t like professional wrestling-it’s fake, and there’s nothing really at stake.

    Rip Murdock (6afd61)

  12. Here are more classic Butkus exchanges, though a bit one-sided.

    Rip Murdock (6afd61)

  13. I was slow on the draw with the Butkus RIP which is probably bad since I am a U of I grad and I resided many years feet from his Chicago HS (Vocational) and had several relatives that went to the school in its 50s-60s heyday. But this morning I heard Butkus and some pals got into a confrontation with several of my dad’s side relatives and acquaintances as yoots and both sides backed off.

    urbanleftbehind (6b2169)

  14. it’s fake, and there’s nothing really at stake.

    What’s in a professional football game for me?

    nk (0de5e0)

  15. Stunning news bound to reshuffle the Republican race for president.

    Rip Murdock (6afd61)

  16. What’s in a professional football game for me?

    nk (0de5e0) — 10/6/2023 @ 10:20 am

    I have no idea, since I don’t know you personally. But for the fans who enjoy any team sport, it’s cheering for your favorite team, whether the hometown team or a team you followed in your childhood, or has a favorite college player on it, or you just like seeing a well-played game.

    Rip Murdock (6afd61)

  17. New battery chemistries that are more environmentally friendly are on the way, as are solid state batteries that are more energy dense and safer than those with liquid electrolytes.

    Agreed that HEV/PHEV is the way to go if looking for overall better reductions in greenhouse gasses, at least as it comes to usage of lithium battery cells and how many are required for a HEV/PHEV vs BEV.

    Sam G (8d2ed1)

  18. Rip Murdock (6afd61) — 10/6/2023 @ 10:30 am

    I’d like to see the NFL return to the days when players played both sides of the ball-offense and defense.

    Rip Murdock (6afd61)

  19. I don’t know what’s in it for you, nk, but I love watching football (though I could never play a lick of it myself), and I love rooting for my Seahawks and Huskies.
    I’m also one of those weirdos who loves watching golf, although I haven’t watched a minute of the PGA after they announced their merger with the Saudi Sportwashers.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  20. nk (0de5e0) — 10/6/2023 @ 10:20 am

    There’s a lot at stake for the players too-reputation, bonuses, future earnings, etc. who are on championship teams. Nobody cares about a pitcher, hitter, striker, or quarterback on a team that has subpar record. They don’t get the respect or big bucks that champions receive.

    Rip Murdock (6afd61)

  21. What’s in a professional football game for me?

    nk (0de5e0) — 10/6/2023 @ 10:20 am

    I agree. College football is where it’s at.

    Rivalries, school bands and songs, student sections, cheerleaders with real boobs.

    norcal (31b5f6)

  22. “I’d like to see the NFL return to the days when players played both sides of the ball-offense and defense.”

    Now there’s wishcasting!! I understand the point…and personally I think in time something will need to give with the NFL or else the speed and ferocity of the game will make it less survivable….but with the modern style of play, substitutions and specialty packages would make it tough to require playing both ways. The Players Union would also have none of it….as it would also likely bring more injuries (yes, play might be slower, but fatigue will lead to more injuries) and fewer roster spots. Fans too want to see the best players at specialized positions…not a linebacker playing tight end…or a star pass rusher trying to play offensive guard.

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  23. This land in Southern California and Arizona was probably not the best investment for agriculture, although perhaps more reliable (Saudis are also doing tis in nearby countries) They may have wanted a lot of land close together.

    There’s a reason U.S. agribusiness didn’t do this. Maybe it’s that that land doesn’t truly have a reliable source of water.

    Sammy Finkelman (c5132f)

  24. Someone wrote an Op-ed in the NYT about people having grown distrustful of institutions.

    I think the problem is that many people have trust in people they should not trust or trust to e reliable.

    Sammy Finkelman (c5132f)

  25. “I’d like to see the NFL return to the days when players played both sides of the ball-offense and defense.”

    Now there’s wishcasting!!

    It’s called nostalgia.

    Rip Murdock (6afd61)

  26. Garry Kasparov:

    There will be no peace until Ukraine is whole and free,

    I wouldn’t be so certain that that will be enough – conversely, Russia might give up, or attempt to give up, before losing all of Crimea.

    I think the best chances are Russia losing territory, and on course to lose more, or more of its army, quickly.

    Biden, Scholz, all the rest withholding the weapons Ukraine needs to stop this slaughter: Stop protecting a terror state. Stop siding with the terrorists because you still think you can make deals with Putin.

    Where does Kasparov get the idea that Biden hopes to make a deal with Putin?? Biden thinks Putin must go, but he is afraid of what will happen if Putin is afraid of that.

    Be on the right side of history now and save more lives. When in history has anyone regretted acting more quickly to prevent terror and genocide?

    Biden is one of those people who regrets it.

    He not only regrets invading Iraq in 2003; he thinks we stayed too long in Afghanistan!

    No, the regrets always come after doing too little, too late.

    Not for Biden.

    . Stop dreaming there is a way back with Putin, that Cold War-style great power deals can or should happen.

    Scholz may think so, but not Biden. But he’s afraid to say that Putin must go.

    Sammy Finkelman (c5132f)

  27. Hakeem Jeffries: A bipartisan coalition is the way forward for the House
    …………
    ………… House Republicans have categorically rejected making changes to the rules designed to accomplish two objectives: encourage bipartisan governance and undermine the ability of extremists to hold Congress hostage. Indeed, Rep. Kevin McCarthy (R-Calif.) publicly declared more than five hours before the motion to vacate was brought up for a vote that he would not work with House Democrats as a bipartisan coalition partner. That declaration mirrored the posture taken by House Republicans in the weeks leading up to the motion-to-vacate vote. It also ended the possibility of changing the House rules to facilitate a bipartisan governance structure.
    ………….
    …………..But what if they pursued a different path and confronted the extremism that has spread unchecked on the Republican side of the aisle? When that step has been taken in good faith, we can proceed together to reform the rules of the House in a manner that permits us to govern in a pragmatic fashion.

    The details would be subject to negotiation, though the principles are no secret: The House should be restructured to promote governance by consensus and facilitate up-or-down votes on bills that have strong bipartisan support. …………
    In short, the rules of the House should reflect the inescapable reality that Republicans are reliant on Democratic support to do the basic work of governing. A small band of extremists should not be capable of obstructing that cooperation.
    ………….

    This idea is absolutely going nowhere and is unworkable. Voters elected a Republican majority to represent them in the House and Republican House members should be able to determine their own leadership. . The price demanded by Democrats will be too high.

    Rip Murdock (6afd61)

  28. The paragraph in italics are my comments.

    Rip Murdock (6afd61)

  29. *.5. I didn’t know what all these acronyms stood for and I looked this up

    https://www.midtronics.com/blog/what-is-the-battery-differences-in-ev-hev-phev

    EV is electric vehicle of course, and…

    HEV (Hybrid Electric Vehicle)

    Hybrid Electric Vehicles are both electric and gas-powered. The energy that powers their batteries is gained through regenerative braking or while driving using the combustion engine. In a standard gas-powered car, the energy from the braking is lost in the form of heat. This happens by way of the rotors and brake pads. The grid cannot charge these types of electric vehicles.

    PHEV (Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicle)

    PHEVs have both an engine and an electric motor. Like a regular hybrid, PHEVs can recharge their batteries through regenerative braking or with the engine. The primary difference between an HEV and a PHEV is the addition of a charging port into the PHEV. In this way, a PHEV can operate more like a EV, driving off the battery and recharging off the grid, only using the combustion engine when the battery is depleted. PHEV batteries are typically higher capacity than HEV batteries.

    Another difference is the distance they can travel before their gas engines turn on. A PHEV will run anywhere from 10 to 40 miles, whereas an HEV will only run less than 2 to 3 miles.

    All of the above vehicles will require maintenance for their batteries, also called energy storage systems….

    Electric Vehicles are also known as BEVs.

    Sammy Finkelman (c5132f)

  30. Rip Murdock (6afd61) — 10/6/2023 @ 12:44 pm

    This idea is absolutely going nowhere and is unworkable. Voters elected a Republican majority to represent them in the House and Republican House members should be able to determine their own leadership. . The price demanded by Democrats will be too high.

    There is no majority. The Republican Party is basically two parties and one of them is against further aid to Ukraine. Even if that is not so, you get a choice between two bad sides.

    People elect individual members of Congress, not unbreakable coalitions.

    Sammy Finkelman (c5132f)

  31. The Republicans talk about the Democratic position on crime, but they don’t campaign hard on it in the only place where it matters: state legislatures. In New York things were OK until the Republicans lost control of the State Senate (which, in the end, they’d maintained through a coalition.)

    Governor Andrew Cuomo caved in on helping the Democratic Party.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/04/nyregion/new-york-state-senate-democrats.html

    An alliance in the State Senate between Republicans and a renegade of group of Democrats known as the Independent Democratic Conference was formed during Gov. Andrew M. Cuomo’s first week in office. It had since amounted to one of the oddest political arrangements in the country — and one that had become increasingly untenable in the current political climate.

    Impassioned activists have called for Democrats to unite against President Trump and to hold up New York as a bastion of liberalism. They have launched primaries against most of the breakaway Democratic lawmakers. And now Mr. Cuomo himself is facing a primary challenge, from the actress Cynthia Nixon, who has made the bipartisan alliance in Albany a focus of her attacks on governor’s progressive credentials.

    The Democratic accord, which would dissolve the I.D.C., left the Republicans with a perilous one-vote majority hinging on one last recalcitrant Democrat. It came together Tuesday over coffee and cookies at a Manhattan steakhouse.

    The biggest thing the Democrats did with their new majority after the 2018 elections is pass a lot of pro-crime legislation.

    Sammy Finkelman (c5132f)

  32. Sammy Finkelman (c5132f) — 10/6/2023 @ 12:54 pm

    Whatever. There still will not (and should not) be a coalition with Democrats. The Republicans would have to give up too much, like on taxes, impeachment, immigration, etc.

    Rip Murdock (6afd61)

  33. https://ny1.com/nyc/all-boroughs/ny-state-of-politics/2022/05/06/analysis–cuomo-s-early-alliance-with-senate-republicans-returns-in-governor-s-race

    Republican gubernatorial hopeful Harry Wilson on Friday released an ad blasting one of his rivals for the GOP nomination, Rep. Lee Zeldin, for voting for budgets during Cuomo’s first term while he was in the state Senate. Zeldin during that time even suggested Cuomo would make a better president than Barack Obama.

    Zeldin was hardly alone in his Republican praise of Cuomo at the time. State Republican Chairman Ed Cox said Cuomo was wearing “Republican clothes” and it was the party’s job to make sure he wore them right…

    …The state Senate was the final lever of power Republicans controlled in New York. Cuomo mistrusted the Democrats in the state Senate, too, following their chaotic two years in the majority from 2009 to 2011.

    A rump caucus of originally four Democrats, the Independent Democratic Conference, would also ally themselves with Republicans in the Senate and help them keep a working majority.

    And Republicans were also eyeing the 2012 round of redistricting, during which Cuomo had vowed to create an independent mechanism for drawing new legislative boundaries that took the pen out of the hands of lawmakers.

    Ultimately, Cuomo struck a deal with the Democrats in the Assembly and Republicans in the Senate to allow them to draw the maps that year and create an independent commission through a constitutional amendment for the next round in 2022 (and we now know how that turned out).

    Eventually, the bottom fell out in the relationship. Cuomo would push through a gun control package in 2013 in the wake of the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting that Republicans begrudgingly allowed to be voted on in the Senate.

    After securing a second term in 2014, Cuomo imposed an administrative ban on high-volume hydrofracking in the state, disappointing Republicans — including Libous, whose district in the Southern Tier would have been a site for natural gasa extraction — who had pushed for the opposite outcome.

    Cuomo had often cited his ability to work with Republicans in the Legislature, who also enabled arguably his most impactful victory, the legalization of same-sex marriage in 2011, contrasting it with the gridlock and polarization in Washington.

    But Albany eventually would not be immune to the same tidal forces in politics that have engulfed Congress and capitols across the country.

    When they became all powerful, the Democrats passed a number of pro crime bills. Pro crime, not pro-criminal. They didn’t help the people in the jails. It’s not just, or mainly, the DAs

    Sammy Finkelman (c5132f)

  34. There is no majority. The Republican Party is basically two parties and one of them is against further aid to Ukraine. Even if that is not so, you get a choice between two bad sides.

    There is a majority of 221 Republicans. The fact they are split on Ukraine is a problem they need to resolve, without any interference from Democrats.

    Rip Murdock (6afd61)

  35. 32. Rip Murdock (6afd61) — 10/6/2023 @ 1:05 pm

    There still will not (and should not) be a coalition with Democrats. The Republicans would have to give up too much, like on taxes, impeachment, immigration, etc.

    They can’t pass any of their legislation anyway.

    But some want to try to force Democrats to pass legislation they gag on.

    The only thing they can do is shut down government and hope the people find their position more palatable than that of the Democrats. And there still won’t be a majority for anything after that.

    What they need is a coalition with some Democrats, like happened in the New York State Senate.

    Sammy Finkelman (c5132f)

  36. What they need is a coalition with some Democrats, like happened in the New York State Senate.

    Sammy Finkelman (c5132f) — 10/6/2023 @ 1:12 pm

    LOL! Any Republican representative that cooperates with the Democrats will get primaried. Brilliant career move.

    Rip Murdock (6afd61)

  37. Rip Murdock (6afd61) — 10/6/2023 @ 1:10 pm

    The fact they are split on Ukraine is a problem they need to resolve, without any interference from Democrats.

    We don’t get good legislation that way. According to the constitution we are not really supposed to elect puppets – The founders were against factions.

    In Parliamentary systems that work that way, they always hold another election.

    You are asking for an almost unanimous consensus. It would not be enough even to have 96% because the dissenters can always get rid of the Speaker.

    The factions are not free to reassemble. They could be tolerted tht way. I suppose a way out could be if some Democrats joined the Republican Party

    Sammy Finkelman (c5132f)

  38. Rip Murdock (6afd61) — 10/6/2023 @ 1:15 pm

    Any Republican representative that cooperates with the Democrats will get primaried. Brilliant career move

    Depends where.

    Sammy Finkelman (c5132f)

  39. New York Daily News editorial headlined Not Wall Considered in the printed paper:

    https://www.nydailynews.com/2023/10/06/bidens-pointless-plan-to-build-more-border-wall

    With a Federal Register notice yesterday, the Biden administration announced that it was planning on waiving 26 federal laws in order to build 20 miles of border wall along the Rio Grande Valley, notwithstanding the president’s heavy campaigning against this very concept, or the extensive system of existing walls that have somehow not managed to prevent increasing migrant arrivals.

    There seems to be different claims about who called attention to this reversal. It was quickly used by Republican leaning sources to claim that Biden admitted he was wrong – they are right – the crisis got so bad they had to do it – but it is also argued the Dems spun it out to the press.

    There’s actually a particular legal reason why a wall is little more than a monument: most of the people currently making their way around the country are doing so after being released by the authorities, and are not considered to be unlawfully present. U.S. law explicitly directs border arrivals who express a fear of return or a desire to claim asylum to be screened for credible fear and given a future court date if they pass that screening. The walls, by law, must have doors, and the guards manning those doors must let people through under certain circumstances.

    Are there some who try to slip through from Mexico undetected? Sure, but less than the public might think, and some evidence points to barriers and tighter security actually incentivizing unlawful residence, not discouraging it. In the era before a heavily guarded border, most unlawful entrants went back and forth, working for periods of time in the United States and then crossing back out.

    They’re talking about at least 10-15 years ago.

    Increasing difficulty crossing made larger numbers simply stay permanently.

    That was the argument as to why there are supposed to be 11 million – Mexicans (then) used to cross back and forth, now (2010 or whatever, they stay)

    Most accounts involving contemporary migrants find that they’re not much dissuaded by border walls, but are more likely to be seriously injured or killed attempting to evade them.

    The death rate isn’t high enough for that.

    As for security, the border authorities have far more powerful tools than a set of big bollards, and these don’t seem to do much to advance enforcement. The vast majority of fentanyl smuggled into the country — one of the most frequent examples cited to agitate in favor of additional border barriers — is brought in via official ports of entry by people authorized to enter the country, more than half of them U.S. citizens.

    So now they have a better, more accurate estimate. It’s only somewhat over 50% who are U.S. citizens. Of course there’s also permanent residents and people ostensibly engaged in legal trade.

    Building miles of additional border wall seems like it’ll mainly accomplish messing up local ecosystems and wasting lots of taxpayer money.

    As money goes, it’s probably not all that much even though the federal debt is now becoming amuch bigger problem due to higher interest rates.

    The laws being waived aren’t little-used, procedural oddities, either. Among other things, they include the Clean Air Act, Safe Drinking Water Act and Endangered Species Act — not exactly the types of statues that you can easily set aside without consequence. The record already shows that, when not constrained by these laws, workers often act carelessly, irreparably damaging ecosystems and trampling over tribal rights.

    A southern border certainly can and should exist, and the demarcation needs to retain some meaning. But Customs and Border Protection is already the largest federal law enforcement agency by far — dwarfing counterparts like the FBI and the DEA — and possesses technologies like radar and drones. Whether or not you think that type of arsenal is warranted, at the very least it makes the idea of a big steel barrier seem even sillier as an integral part of today’s border security.

    The wall was Donald Trump’s signature policy, doesn’t dissuade criminal elements,

    Professional criminals.

    won’t stop migrants, endangers the local ecology, sets up eminent domain battles with local residents and will cost gobs of money to both build and maintain. So, what exactly is Biden doing this for?

    Politics and spin. And maybe because he can at least help some unions.

    .

    Sammy Finkelman (c5132f)

  40. “GYM” jordan, scalise cancel fox debate.

    asset (1718d2)

  41. @38 where wouldn’t they?

    asset (1718d2)

  42. https://www.businessinsider.com/joe-biden-dog-commander-sent-off-white-house-biting-incidents-2023-10?op=1

    There aren’t bad dogs, only bad owners. and that Biden’s dogs keep biting people says the way they are being treated by him

    NJRob (49d70e)

  43. There were two news stories this morning One about a protest in Staten Island where the protesters are trying to annoy the people being placed there (they thought they won but an injunction was stayed)

    The other involving people being kicked out of a shelter in Queens. Some men had jobs nearby or families. They are still in the system bt reassigned to scattered places.

    I think that has to do with a more general problem that’s been going on without getting any attention for a long time.. You occasionally hear of people being relocated to shelter and children moved far from school.

    https://www.esperanzacontigo.org/en/publication/121/how-does-homelessness-affect-a-childs-education

    They may have to change schools frequently during their school year due to moving from place to place or changing guardians often, which can make it harder for them to keep up with schoolwork.

    I think the explanation as to be that they come up with a new contract allowing more crowding ad then move the earlier residents out, thinking they will get less complainst s that way.

    Sammy Finkelman (c5132f)

  44. asset (1718d2) — 10/6/2023 @ 1:50 pm

    @38 where wouldn’t they?

    Many places.

    in places they’d get primaries but win.

    Any place with open primaries and big Republican parties.

    Sammy Finkelman (c5132f)

  45. I think that’s the second dog who was sent away.

    No, the third:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2023/10/05/biden-commander-dog-bites-removed

    The Wash Post isn’t clear on why one of the earlier two dogs was sent away.

    Sammy Finkelman (c5132f)

  46. We don’t get good legislation that way. According to the constitution we are not really supposed to elect puppets – The founders were against factions.

    LOL! The first American political parties appeared in 1792, only four years after the ratification of the Constitution; and founded by Alexander Hamilton and Thomas Jefferson.

    Rip Murdock (6afd61)

  47. I suppose a way out could be if some Democrats joined the Republican Party

    Sammy Finkelman (c5132f) — 10/6/2023 @ 1:24 pm

    Comedy Gold! 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

    What specific policy concessions should House Republicans make to entice Democrats to vote for a Republican Speaker, or to enter into a “grand bargain”?

    Rip Murdock (6afd61)

  48. You are asking for an almost unanimous consensus

    Only among House Republicans, because they have a governing majority.

    Rip Murdock (6afd61)

  49. Rip Murdock (6afd61) — 10/6/2023 @ 2:13 pm

    This assumes that the Republicans need the Democrats more than vice versa. Only six Republicans are needed to vote for Jeffries as speaker; but I think the Democrats are enjoying their schadenfreude for now.

    I doubt any Republicans would vote for Jeffries anyway. Political suicide.

    Rip Murdock (6afd61)

  50. https://www.newsweek.com/2023/10/13/exclusive-fbi-targets-trump-followers-2024-election-nears-1831836.html

    FBI targets millions of Republicans and no doubt illegally surveils them. Our very own Stasi.

    NJRob (49d70e)

  51. https://www.foxnews.com/media/hillary-clinton-floats-formal-deprogramming-trump-supporters-suggests-gop-base-bigots

    And Hillary declares, with the support of many, that Republicans must he deprogrammed. Are the Communist camps next? Mao or Soviet?

    NJRob (49d70e)

  52. Biden has had dog problem since his first days as Obama’s Vice-President. He has a penchant for Alsatian Wolf Dogs (renamed German Shepherds for marketing purposes), who are already an overbred, aggressive, and territorial breed and his demonstrate every one of those traits. They may not be bad dogs to accompany a prison guard on his nightly patrol or to keep a prisoner at bay but they are definitely not office pets.

    nk (3bde75)

  53. Voters elected a Republican majority to represent them in the House

    Balderdash. Voters chose a single representative in their district. They did not vote for any of the other 434 members (or shouldn’t have). Further, they chose from two polar opposites even though they might well have preferred the middle road.

    Some of them did not even get that choice, as their district was gerrymandered and there was only one candidate running, even in the primary.

    A better criticism is the lack of a similar offer from Chuck Schumer, so any “bipartisan” bill goes to a partisan Senate.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  54. All of the above vehicles will require maintenance for their batteries, also called energy storage systems….

    Not really. I drove a 2008 Ford Escape hybrid for 15 years and while the engine needed periodic maintenance, the battery system never did. I think there’s some cooling fluid in my new hybrid, but otherwise I see nothing in the maintenance schedule.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  55. The Republicans would have to give up too much, like on taxes, impeachment, immigration

    1) There is no point to the current impeachment, unless :counting coup” and “owning the Dems” is your idea of governance.

    2) ONLY bipartisan legislation can finally deal with the immigration problem. The current position is like treating metastatic cancer by arguing about it.

    3) There are corrections to taxes that make sense. Restoring the SALT deduction up to $50K or $100K, while increasing the top rate to 39.6% (which will happen anyway by default), reduces taxes paid by anyone not in the top bracket (and some who are), while giving the Democrats a small win with people who really don’t care all that much about their marginal rate.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  56. Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/6/2023 @ 3:08 pm

    Ok, voters in 221 congressional districts (whether or not were unopposed) elected Republican representatives to represent them in Congress, which ended up constituting a majority to govern.

    It still up to the Republicans to govern by themselves, without any interference from the Democrats.

    Rip Murdock (6afd61)

  57. Any Republican representative that cooperates with the Democrats will get primaried. Brilliant career move

    So what? Ryan was repeatedly primaried and repeatedly won those primaries 70-30. Defeating a centrist Republican in a primary will almost surely mean that a Democrat is elected in a centrist district. And that Democrat will assuredly cooperate with the other Democrats.

    This is one of the reasons people think the whackjob wing of the GOP is crazy. Also, they’re whackjobs.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  58. It still up to the Republicans to govern by themselves, without any interference from the Democrats.

    And so we continue to be unable to pass anything of import. All positions are frozen.

    Now, I know that your idea of a good politician is one who is immutable in his positions, regardless of any information or need that develops, but me, I think that’s utter lunacy.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  59. Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/6/2023 @ 3:18 pm

    Do you think:

    a) Democrats should provide votes to elect a new Republican Speaker, and/or enter into a “grand coalition” ;

    b) ShyRepublicans provide any concessions to entice Democrats to do so; and

    c) Specifically, what should those concessions be?

    Rip Murdock (6afd61)

  60. ShyRepublicans=Should Republicans

    Rip Murdock (840fa1)

  61. And so we continue to be unable to pass anything of import. All positions are frozen.

    Now, I know that your idea of a good politician is one who is immutable in his positions, regardless of any information or need that develops, but me, I think that’s utter lunacy.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/6/2023 @ 3:26 pm

    Talk to the House Majority leadership. It’s their problem, and they have the responsibility (and power) to fix it. The Democrats don’t have the power to do anything.

    Rip Murdock (6afd61)

  62. @50 If you have done nothing wrong you have nothing to fear. At least that is what the government have been telling me for the last 60 years. So now you got a problem with government infiltration and agent provocateurs when its done to your side? There was a guy named paster niemoller who had something to say on the subject you should look it up. Oh and buy the way welcome to the club!

    asset (a230b5)

  63. Now, I know that your idea of a good politician is one who is immutable in his positions,………

    LOL! It was McCarthy who held the “immutable position” of not dealing with Democrats to save his speakership. He couldn’t (or wouldn’t) make a deal.

    Rip Murdock (6afd61)

  64. @59 A. NO! Obama tried that and what did it get him? My friend sammy thinks republicans could get away with it with out losing their primary. I don’t Almost all districts are to gerrymandered and most are closed primaries.

    asset (a230b5)

  65. So what? Ryan was repeatedly primaried and repeatedly won those primaries 70-30. Defeating a centrist Republican in a primary will almost surely mean that a Democrat is elected in a centrist district. And that Democrat will assuredly cooperate with the other Democrats.

    “Cooperating” Republicans would probably come from marginal districts that voted for Biden (like in NY) who didn’t win their elections 70-30. For example, Mike Lawler who represents the NY 27th District, beat Sean Patrick Maloney 49.4-48.5.

    Rip Murdock (6afd61)

  66. Defeating a centrist Republican in a primary will almost surely mean that a Democrat is elected in a centrist district. And that Democrat will assuredly cooperate with the other Democrats.

    MAGAWorld doesn’t look that far ahead.

    Rip Murdock (e869cc)

  67. nk – It’s interesting that Biden hasn’t learned from his experience with dogs — or how successful GHWB was with “Millie”. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millie_(dog)

    (“Most United States presidents have kept pets while in office, or pets have been part of their families.[1] Only James K. Polk, Andrew Johnson, and Donald Trump did not have any presidential pets while in office.[2] However, Johnson did take care of some mice he found in his bedroom.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_pets )

    Jim Miller (f497eb)

  68. “Cooperating” Republicans would probably come from marginal districts that voted for Biden (like in NY) who didn’t win their elections 70-30

    I said primaries. But you knew that.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  69. MAGAWorld doesn’t look that far ahead.

    Neither do you, it seems.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  70. Simone Biles wins 6th world overall championship.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  71. Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/6/2023 @ 5:00 pm

    As you noted in the same post referencing the result of primaries (aka the general election)you wrote:

    Defeating a centrist Republican in a primary will almost surely mean that a Democrat is elected in a centrist district. And that Democrat will assuredly cooperate with the other Democrats.

    So if a “cooperating” Republican is primaried by a MAGA candidate (and loses to MAGAWorld), you are correct the result will be a Democratic win.

    So I don’t expect any Republicans, certainly not those in marginal seats, to support a “grand bargain” the Democrats. And certainly not any conservative Republicans. It’s a dead idea.

    Rip Murdock (e869cc)

  72. I watched Ms. Biles in action. She is just phenomenal.

    Dana (932d71)

  73. Oh, gee, the Saudis might have to grow their alfalfa someplace where it rains and take the same risk as most American farmers who might get rain on their crop at the wrong time. How sad.

    Nic (896fdf)

  74. On one of the ESPNs tonight they are airing a doc about women sports reporters where Steve Garvey was cited as a key advocate for their allowance in the clubhouse. Self interest may have been at play, but he can spin this as defender if women participating in sport as women.

    urbanleftbehind (d817e5)

  75. Comedy Gold!:

    Members of Donald Trump’s team are quietly preparing to go on offense against Robert F. Kennedy Jr. as internal campaign polling suggests his expected third party bid could draw more votes from Trump than President Joe Biden in a general election.
    ………..
    “It’s single digits, but it’s enough where it counts to make a difference,” the person said. A second person familiar with the polling confirmed their description.
    ………….
    “We’re gonna be dropping napalm after napalm on his head reminding the public of his very liberal views, dating back to 2012,” another Trumpworld person told Semafor. “We have a lot of stuff on him.”
    …………
    RFK Jr. has himself suggested he’d be likely to rely on Republican support, saying in a recent podcast interview that he “take[s] more votes from President Trump than” from Biden. A pro-RFK Jr. super PAC produced polling suggesting as much, albeit at the margins and without other third party options included.
    …………
    Trump team’s newfound focus on RFK Jr. as an opponent is yet another example of the campaign shifting into general election mode early. But it also could be dangerous for Kennedy, who up until now has enjoyed the support of many pro-Trump figures and conservative media.
    ………..
    Elections analyst Nate Silver recently argued that a third-party run by RFK Jr. “probably doesn’t hurt Biden” in part because “polls fairly consistently show Kennedy with stronger favorable ratings among Republicans than Democrats.” Based on data from other third-party runs, Silver also expressed skepticism that these efforts typically make any sort of significant impact: “Third-party support tends to collapse down the stretch if the candidates aren’t seen as viable,” he noted.
    #########

    RFK Jr.’s past is a target rich environment.

    Rip Murdock (e869cc)

  76. Rip Murdock (e869cc) — 10/6/2023 @ 7:01 pm


    I’ve always thought that Trump and Kennedy could be running mates. It would be a bipartisan ticket, and they have a lot in common. Both are conspiracy minded wannabe authoritarians.

    Rip Murdock (e869cc)

  77. Democrat Biden in 2020: “There will not be another foot of wall constructed during my administration.”

    Democrat Biden now: “There is presently an acute and immediate need to construct physical barriers… to prevent unlawful entries into the United States.”

    Democrat Gov Kathy Hochul in 2021: “As you know, the Statue of Liberty is inscribed. It says, give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses, yearning to be free. You’re welcome with open arms and we’ll work to keep you safe… We’ll not only house you, but we’ll protect you.“

    Democrat Hochul now: “We have to get the word out, that when you come to New York, you’re not going to have more hotel rooms, we don’t have capacity. So we have to also message properly that we’re at a limit – if you’re going to leave your country, go somewhere else.”

    Democrat Gov Pritzker in 2021: “Throughout my governorship I’ve directed my administration to adopt policies that make Illinois a welcoming state for immigrants.”

    Democrat Gov Pritzker now: “The federal government’s lack of intervention and coordination at the border has created an untenable situation for Illinois.”

    Trump was the best president Democrat governors ever had.

    lloyd (0a6508)

  78. @75Ask al gore and hillary clinton about people not voting for green party on election day.

    asset (03f304)

  79. RFK is no threat to biden except as a protest vote in primary. An upset lefty is another matter. See@78

    asset (03f304)

  80. https://twitter.com/hashtag/Breaking?src=hash

    Hamas and the muslim terrorists have attacked Israel with thousands of rockets, slaughtered innocent civilians in the streets and in their homes. This is war.

    How many millions that Biden and Obama sent to Iran and the fake palestinians funded these terrorist attacks?

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  81. That whole place is Jed Clampett’s swamp.
    Israeli arms quietly helped Azerbaijan retake Nagorno-Karabakh, to the dismay of region’s Armenians

    Israel has a big stake in Azerbaijan, which serves as a critical source of oil and is a staunch ally against Israel’s archenemy Iran. It is also a lucrative customer of sophisticated arms.
    ….
    Although once resource-poor Israel now has plenty of natural gas off its Mediterranean coast, Azerbaijan still supplies at least 40% of Israel’s oil needs, keeping cars and trucks on its roads. Israel turned to Baku’s offshore deposits in the late 1990s, creating an oil pipeline through the Turkish transport hub of Ceyan that isolated Iran, which at the time capitalized on oil flowing through its pipelines from Kazakhstan to world markets.

    nk (754399)

  82. How slow does a news day have to be to make 74-year old Steve Garvey relevant to anything? I do remember that he married a blonde with a voice like fingernails on a blackboard, but I could be thinking of someone else. What other remarkable thing has he done recently that I missed?

    nk (b7a238)

  83. Possible R CA U.S. Senate candidate, in a field where multiple Dems split the base in a jungle primary.

    urbanleftbehind (d31136)

  84. He’s smarter than Hershel Walker, too!

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  85. Question: If Jim Jordan says he will refuse to bring up any bill to send more aid to Ukraine, how is that not a deal-breaker for large numbers of Republicans?

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  86. So, if Trump could be elected Speaker, why not Liz Cheney?

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  87. So, if Trump could be elected Speaker, why not Liz Cheney?

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/7/2023 @ 7:18 am

    LOL! Try finding 218 Republican votes for her. She would get no more than 10.

    Rip Murdock (d917eb)

  88. Question: If Jim Jordan says he will refuse to bring up any bill to send more aid to Ukraine, how is that not a deal-breaker for large numbers of Republicans?

    Name three. All the ones with any integrity are gone. The crapweasels who remain will be glad to have him relieve them of the dilemma of helping Ukraine or pleasing Trump.

    nk (b7a238)

  89. LOL! Try finding 218 Republican votes for her. She would get no more than 10.

    She’d only need 10.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  90. For Dana:

    Jailed Iranian women’s rights activist wins 2023 Nobel Peace Prize

    This year’s Nobel Peace Prize has been awarded to Iranian human rights activist and journalist Narges Mohammadi. The award citation said Mohammadi received the prize for her fight against the oppression of women in Iran and for promoting human rights and freedom for all.
    …………
    (Chairperson of the Norwegian Nobel Committee, Berit Reiss-Andersen) said that altogether the Iranian regime had arrested Mohammadi 13 times, convicted her five times and sentenced her to a total of 31 years in prison and 154 lashes. Mohammadi remains incarcerated in Iran’s notorious Evin prison.
    ………
    Reiss-Andersen said the slogan “Woman, Life, Freedom” suitably fits Mohammadi’s work.

    The Nobel Committee’s decision to award its peace prize to the 51-year-old Mohammadi comes after more than a year of protests in Iran led largely by women. …………

    Mohammadi is vice-president of the Defenders of Human Rights Center in Iran and has campaigned for the abolition of the death penalty. During the most recent demonstrations in Iran, she sent a letter from Evin Prison, asking the United Nations to stop the Iranian government from issuing the death penalty to protesters.
    …………..
    Reiss-Andersen called on the Iranian government to release Mohammadi so she can accept her prize in person, at an Oslo ceremony in December.
    ……………

    Rip Murdock (d917eb)

  91. She’d only need 10.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/7/2023 @ 7:46 am

    If you are assume the Democrats would vote for her, I doubt it. They want total control as much as the Republicans; and would be seen as their puppet.

    House speaker fantasy camp.

    Rip Murdock (d917eb)

  92. Just how far down the rabbit hole has the NM governor gone? Her (now enjoined) fun ban was only the tip of the iceberg. She is using state boards and commissions — often her recent appointments — top rule by decree is substantive areas.

    Not only has her handpicked Environmental Improvement Board adopted the California timetable for electric vehicles, in a state where half the population lives in isolated communities, but now they are demanding widespread installation of EV chargers, through an unfunded mandate on businesses.

    The Albuquerque Journal, a centrist newspaper, says this in an editoria;:

    Unfunded EV charger mandates would be a buzzkill on NM businesses

    How do you remedy one unfunded government mandate? Apparently with another one impacting construction and parking everywhere from day care facilities to funeral parlors.

    In early July, Gov. Michelle Lujan Grisham announced new environmental rules that would require 43% of the 2027 model year cars and trucks sent to New Mexico for sale meet strict clean car standards. The phased-in percentage of “clean cars” would leap to 82% for 2032 vehicles.

    The Journal recently learned of the second salvo in the governor’s EV assault — EV charger construction mandates. And this, too, is being done through executive action, rather than the legislative process — a hallmark of the Lujan Grisham administration.

    The Construction Industries Division, a division of the New Mexico Regulation & Licensing Department, is considering forcing almost every new construction project in the state to include EV charging infrastructure in parking lots.

    • New apartments, hotels, motels, vacation timeshare properties, monasteries, and dormitories would be required to install EV chargers for 20% of their parking spaces. In addition, 50% of parking spots would have to have the infrastructure to be EV capable, and 5% would have to be EV ready.

    Albuquerque is scrambling for more housing, allowing casitas in backyards and easing the conversion of old motels and office buildings into apartment buildings. The city is short 13,000 to 33,000 rental units. The aim of the city’s Housing Forward ABQ initiative is to create 5,000 new housing units by 2025 above what the private housing market will provide.

    Unfunded EV charger mandates wouldn’t help any of that. Unfortunately, the chilling effects go far beyond housing.

    • New barber shops, car washes, laundromats, banks, jails, department stores, retail stores, hospitals, drug stores, parking garages, doctor and dentist offices, and nursing homes would be forced to install EV chargers in 15% of their parking spaces, with 30% EV capable.

    • New funeral parlors, swimming pools, amusement parks, tennis courts, theaters, casinos, restaurants, bars, libraries, museums, places of worship and stadiums would be mandated to have EV chargers in 10% of their parking spaces, with another 10% required to be EV capable.

    The vast majority of [locations in] New Mexico, the fifth largest state in terms of geography, ha[ve] zero to one registered EV. New Mexicans want and need affordable passenger vehicles capable of traveling long distances, and trucks capable of hauling big loads. And questions persist about the capacity of New Mexico’s electrical grid to support tens of thousands of charging stations, especially in rural areas.

    And again, this is all being done by the governor, through puppet boards and commissions. The super-majority Democrat legislature has actually refused to pass a lot of this.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  93. *gun ban, but fun ban would be fine, too.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  94. It would be good if the US Supreme Court stopped a lot of this administrative state BS by nationalizing the “major questions doctrine” under the Guarantee Clause.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  95. House speaker fantasy camp.

    It’s more likely than Trump becoming Speaker, and a better outcome. Other than “Trump”, she’s probably to the right of McCarthy and maybe Jim Jordan.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  96. It’s more likely than Trump becoming Speaker, and a better outcome. Other than “Trump”, she’s probably to the right of McCarthy and maybe Jim Jordan.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/7/2023 @ 8:01 am

    Neither Trump or Cheney are likely to become speaker. Most of the House members that would have supported Cheney either didn’t run for reelection or were defeated in 2022.

    There may be other choices than Jordan or Scalise, but it won’t be anyone from the outside of the House. If the House Republicans picked a candidate outside of their members, they would be conceding they cannot lead themselves.

    Rip Murdock (d917eb)

  97. If the House Republicans picked a candidate outside of their members, they would be conceding they cannot lead themselves.

    And your point?

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  98. If the House Republicans picked a candidate outside of their members, they would be conceding they cannot lead themselves.

    And your point?

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/7/2023 @ 8:32 am

    That House Republicans should be able to find a candidate that can receive 218 votes in their caucus.

    Rip Murdock (d917eb)

  99. That House Republicans should be able to find a candidate that can receive 218 votes in their caucus.

    Operative word there is “should.”

    We’ll see and LOL.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  100. So, is this the point where Israel decides that Gaza needs to be evacuated?

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  101. Just a reminder: There were celebrations in Gaza after the 9/11 attack.

    Jim Miller (291f38)

  102. Rigging The Game

    …………
    At issue is a request made by more than 90 House Republicans on Friday to temporarily change the party’s internal rules for nominating a candidate for speaker. In a brief letter to Representative Patrick T. McHenry of North Carolina, the interim speaker, and Representative Elise Stefanik of New York, the conference chair, the group requested a “special organizational meeting” to consider the change. The New York Times obtained a copy of the letter.

    In the letter, they asked for an amendment to temporarily raise the threshold to become the nominee. Proponents of the change have been pushing to require a unanimous vote of the Republican conference, instead of the current bar of a majority.
    …………
    It would, in theory, avoid a replay of the public chaos that unfolded in January, when the nation watched as the House slogged through 15 rounds of roll call votes until Republicans finally coalesced around Mr. McCarthy, a veteran lawmaker from California.

    But supporters of Representative Steve Scalise of Louisiana, the majority leader who is running for speaker, quickly cried foul, arguing that the change would only make it more difficult for him to be elected.
    …………..
    ………….. Mr. Scalise’s allies believe that he would win a majority over Mr. Jordan, putting him in a strong position to beat the Ohio Republican on the House floor under the current rules.
    ………….
    Under the current Republican conference rules, whoever emerges from the secret ballot with a simple majority of votes wins. Changing the rules could lead to a much more drawn-out process wherein both candidates would have to battle to get the entire conference behind them.

    Mr. Scalise’s allies regard the effort as a bid by those who are boosting Mr. Jordan’s candidacy to tilt the scales in his favor. ………….
    ……………

    Rip Murdock (d917eb)

  103. There were celebrations in Gaza after the 9/11 attack

    There were celebrations in Minneapolis after the 9/11 attack.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  104. https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/latest-news-israel-attack-gaza-hamas-rocket-s3cjzfrpm

    The British government believes that Iran is linked to the Hamas attack on Israel and that the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC) is likely to have played a role in training and the supply of weapons (Dipesh Gadher writes).

    A Whitehall source said: “The Revolutionary Guards have their fingerprints all over this multifaceted attack. Hamas is just another tool in Iran’s campaign against the West.”
    ***
    Members of the Iranian parliament were shown on state television today chanting: “Palestine will be victorious, Israel will be destroyed.”

    Biden and his supporters are puppets of Hamas and Iran. Blood on their hands.

    NJRob (d350ea)

  105. Perhaps this is the day that Israel does for the Iranian nuclear facilities. Of course, the Iranians would be expecting that.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  106. At issue is a request made by more than 90 House Republicans on Friday to temporarily change the party’s internal rules for nominating a candidate for speaker.

    It makes some sense to air their dirty laundry in private, but the Gang of 8 would still act out in public, because that’s their actual goal.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  107. Kick the Gang of Eight out of the Conference, bringing the House to 213-211-8. Then see who aligns with whom. Will the Squad have their own demands?

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  108. LOL!

    Not only the House GOP caucus, but the entire GOP, is roadkill with maggots feeding off its rotting carcass.

    And there’s no comfort to be had, for the flies that bred them are still swarming all over America.

    nk (cd1796)

  109. Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/7/2023 @ 10:03 am

    LOL!

    Rip Murdock (d917eb)

  110. Marquette Law School National Poll 10/4/23

    A new Marquette Law School Poll national survey finds a close presidential race: former President Donald Trump receives 51% and President Joe Biden gets 48% among registered voters, while Biden has a 51% advantage over Trump’s 49% among likely voters—those who say they are certain they will vote in the presidential election. The difference in advantage shows how the outcome of the election may be determined by the success of respective efforts to mobilize voters over the coming 13 months.
    …………..
    Biden is also favored among those who pay the most attention to politics, while Trump has the advantage among those less engaged by politics………
    …………..
    In contrast, those who say they are very or somewhat enthusiastic about the 2024 elections favor Trump, while those with less enthusiasm favor Biden……….
    …………
    In a choice between Biden and Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis, DeSantis is the choice of 51% to Biden’s 48% among registered voters. Like against Trump, Biden holds a small edge among likely voters, with 51% compared to 48% for DeSantis. ………..
    ………….
    A significant share of voters are initially reluctant to choose between Biden or Trump. The share of reluctant voters had remained around 20-25% since the head-to-head question was first posed in November 2021. In the current poll, it has declined modestly, with 12% who say they would vote for someone else and 4% who say they wouldn’t vote.
    …………..
    When pressed to choose, almost all respondents will make a choice of Biden or Trump. ……….
    …………..
    Asked about the indictment of Trump in federal court in the District of Columbia in connection with his actions following the 2020 election, 52% say Trump dd something illegal, 24% say he did something wrong but not illegal, and 24% say he did nothing wrong.

    Something illegal/Something wrong but not illegal/He didn’t do anything wrong

    Total 52 24 24
    Republican 13 37 50
    Independent 50 38 12
    Democrat 89 10 1

    ………..

    Rip Murdock (d917eb)

  111. Republican 13 37 50
    Independent 50 38 12
    Democrat 89 10 1

    And this is EXACTLY why a centrist 3rd candidate has a solid chance this cycle. The polarization of our politics is such that there is a huge vacuum in the center. Political niches of this sort are likely to be filled.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  112. “The Israeli army warned Netanyahu for months that his push for government overhaul put Israel at great risk of a multi-front attack. He dismissed their warnings by accusing the military of “joining the left-wing protesters” against him. His ministers said army could go to hell.”

    SamG (4e6c22)

  113. Way to blame the victims, SamG.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  114. Biden to speak: I wonder how many platitudes he can cram into 10 minutes.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  115. Still waiting for Biden. Probably needed some more meds.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  116. All platitudes.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  117. Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/7/2023 @ 10:51 am

    LLOL! Those numbers only refer to their opinions on Trump’s indictments, not anything else.

    Rip Murdock (29f75d)

  118. @113 that’s not blaming the victims, that’s blaming their leader for focusing on culture wars while ignoring the security of the state.

    SamG (4e6c22)

  119. All platitudes.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/7/2023 @ 11:52 am

    What did you expect Biden to say? “We begin bombing Tehran in five minutes”?

    Rip Murdock (d917eb)

  120. Perhaps this is the day that Israel does for the Iranian nuclear facilities. Of course, the Iranians would be expecting that.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/7/2023 @ 9:58 am

    Israel doesn’t have the capability to attack and destroy Iranian nuclear facilities:

    Israel’s fighter-bombers can’t carry the MOP because it requires heavy bombers, which the IAF does not possess.

    Source

    Rip Murdock (d917eb)

  121. MOP:

    For that, the IAF requires the MOP (Massive Ordnance Penetrator), a huge American bomb.

    Same source as post 120.

    Rip Murdock (d917eb)

  122. They do have the Jericho family of ballistic missiles, however…

    SamG (4e6c22)

  123. What did you expect Biden to say? “We begin bombing Tehran in five minutes”?

    I was hoping for “began”

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  124. Yet another application for Project Thor. If only we had a way of putting large numbers of things in orbit.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  125. 2003 proposed version of Project Thor (first suggested in the 1950s)

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  126. Reportedly, Hezbollah has 150,000 pockets hidden throughout Southern Lebanon. Were they to enter this conflict, the Israeli reaction to that threat is hard to gauge.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  127. *rockets. Perhaps in pockets, or maybe sockets.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  128. Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/7/2023 @ 12:21 pm

    LOL! Hypothetical indeed.

    Rip Murdock (29f75d)

  129. SamG (4e6c22) — 10/7/2023 @ 12:12 pm

    It begs the question then if Iran is such a threat to Israel why the haven’t been used.

    Nuclear Armageddon fantasy camp.

    Rip Murdock (d917eb)

  130. Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/7/2023 @ 12:17 pm


    While we can place a large number of objects in orbit simultaneously, first the object needs to developed.

    Rip Murdock (d917eb)

  131. The problem with Thor has always been the difficulty of launching heavy metal objects into space, since until recently launches were incredibly expensive and infrequent. Falcon 9 can launch 50,000 lbs to LEO, which isn’t enough for the 2003 version (that’s about 200,000 lbs each), but a reduction in diameter to 0.5 meters would turn the trick. Reducing the length a bit would allow each Falcon 9 to be reused.

    The problems that were obvious in the past are not so apparent now.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  132. OOOPs. 0.5 feet (6 inches), not 0.5 meters. Or maybe shorter and not as thin. Sadly tungsten is absolutely required and it’s heavy.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  133. Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/7/2023 @ 1:00 pm

    Except for cost, I’m sure.

    Rip Murdock (d917eb)

  134. On that Israeli intelligence failure: Here’s a stray thought: Perhaps one of the reasons for it was Edward Snowden’s theft of America’s secrets. I have been reading Edward Jay Epstein’s book on the theft and he concludes that Snowden definitely made us — and our friends and allies — more vulnerable to terorists by revealing many of our secrets.
    https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/547346/how-america-lost-its-secrets-by-edward-jay-epstein/

    Jim Miller (86614c)

  135. Tungsten is hard to work with (it’s very hard, very heavy and doesn’t melt until over 6000 degrees F. OTOH, what you need to build is just a dumb stick with guide-fins.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  136. @129 they can ostensibly carry conventional warheads as well

    SamG (4e6c22)

  137. correction: terrorists, of course. (I can spell OK, but I am a lousy typist.)

    Jim Miller (86614c)

  138. There’s more tungsten available in the world with the end of incandescent bulbs. The military has a lot of experience working with it for other uses (e.g. re-entry vehicles).

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  139. @129 they can ostensibly carry conventional warheads as well

    Not really very efficient. I expect that any attack on Iranian nuclear facilities will be done by the United States.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  140. On that Israeli intelligence failure:

    This is the kind of thing that required human assets, which they may not have in Hamas.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  141. A report in July discusses Israeli intelligence informing Netanyahu of security consequences arising from the judicial “reform” push is available at https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/yokra13525790.

    SamG (4e6c22)

  142. @139 no disagreement there

    SamG (4e6c22)

  143. Part of the Israeli problem was that it was Shabbat and observant Jews (common in the settlements) had all electronics turned off and could not be quickly warned.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  144. And a good thread on the $6bil of Iranian money from oil sales approved by the Trump admin by Jennifer Griffin of Fox News at https://twitter.com/JenGriffinFNC/status/1710735779834593355.

    SamG (4e6c22)

  145. The judicial reform is the last thing on anyone’s mind in Israel today. And what the courts were doing “We don’t like your law, so we strike it down”) deserved the pushback they got.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  146. Not really very efficient. I expect that any attack on Iranian nuclear facilities will be done by the United States.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/7/2023 @ 1:12 pm

    LOL! Not likely any time soon.

    Rip Murdock (29f75d)

  147. And a good thread on the $6bil of Iranian money from oil sales approved by the Trump admin by Jennifer Griffin of Fox News at https://twitter.com/JenGriffinFNC/status/1710735779834593355.

    SamG (4e6c22) — 10/7/2023 @ 1:17 pm

    I’m sure Joe Biden appreciates you running interference for him since he’s a state sponsor of terror.

    NJRob (d350ea)

  148. @NJRob that’d be Trump that allowed Iran to sell that oil, which you’d know of you read through the thread.

    Why’d Trump let Iran sell oil?

    SamG (4e6c22)

  149. If* not of

    SamG (4e6c22)

  150. Unsurprisingly, the NY Times comments are all about “Well, what did you expect?” from the poor Palestinians.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  151. Hamas-controlled Gaza is a terrorist state, the Iran theocratic regime is a terrorist state, and Putin’s Russia is a terrorist. Our foreign policy should be in accordance with their respective status.

    This tweet about Noa is absolutely heartbreaking, but that’s what Hamas is about.

    What do I mean about “our foreign policy”. On Israel-Palestine, it’s time for Hamas to be no more. End the terrorist organization. On Iran, stop sending them money and sanction the hell out of them. On Russia, keep Putin withdrawing from Ukrainian territory, which keeps him stuck in this quagmire of his own making.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  152. I expect Israel to enter into Gaza with 200,000 troops, tanks, etc, and raze large sections of Gaza City. If Hezbollah fires its 100,000 rockets, Israel may use a nuke to stop it.

    This war will become existential if allowed to grow. To stop that, I expect shock & awe.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  153. I suspect Hamas deliberately targeted that peace festival.

    Jim Miller (d2a9c8)

  154. https://hotair.com/ed-morrissey/2023/10/07/cnn-analyst-the-real-problem-is-israels-response-you-know-n582972

    CNN gives the pro-Hamas viewpoint and attacks Israel for declaring war.

    NJRob (d350ea)

  155. I may instinctively want a 3rd party candidate…less for their potential for a historic upset (the infrastructure and party tribalism makes that a Herculean task)….but to add normal into the race. Again, by May I expect Trump to be a convicted felon facing more charges. If you have yet another voice beating that home, it may just register among the 50% that see no wrong and the chorus of fluffers or media enablers. Still, will a normal candidate peal off as many Democrats as disgusted Republicans? Would they show also show weakness with Biden even if they eventually choose to jump out leaving it mano a mano. Yes, we starve for normal, but I’m skeptical that normal will end up hurting Trump more than Biden. The bigger help would be Harris voluntarily stepping down…but that’s a longshot too. If we are left with Harris v. Trump, we might want that 3rd party option but it likely will not be enough.

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  156. Yes, we starve for normal, but I’m skeptical that normal will end up hurting Trump more than Biden.

    Biden may have his own scandals by then. He’s a really weird guy and the way he grabs young women is creepy. The Hunter thing may come back to bite him on obstruction charges (is it really OK to influence the DoJ to help your son?) It may also come back to the substance of what Hunter was doing. Right now they have deceived, obfuscated and inveigled their way to a muddle of a case, but maybe there is something there. God knows Hunter was getting paid for something other than smoking crack.

    Or maybe he just has a public mental meltdown, where it becomes obvious he should not be running the country, even to his party.

    Personally, I’d prefer it if Trump dropped out and minded his increasingly fragile legal woes instead. His path now seems to be heading for poverty and imprisonment.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  157. Would either man pass an objective test of mental health?

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  158. SO, when Biden said: “This is not a moment for any party hostile to Israel to exploit these attacks to seek advantage” what is he saying? Is this a warning that the US will take action if that happens? Or is it just wishcasting?

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  159. AJ_Liberty (5f05c3) — 10/7/2023 @ 2:56 pm

    You’ve got RFK Jr. and Cornel West to choose from right now. And while Trump may be convicted of something by May, he can secure the nomination by March (and there is nothing that can him prevent from being nominated or running).

    I can’t think of any third party candidate that can win 270 electoral votes.

    Rip Murdock (d917eb)

  160. https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2023/10/so-much-for-peace.php

    The Palestinians who invaded Israel have focused on kidnapping civilians, mostly young women. This was facilitated by the fact that there was a “rave for peace” going on near Gaza that many young people attended. The Palestinians no doubt knew this, and planned to attack the event. They took a number of young women captive there.

    This video has been seen millions of times. There is a naked young woman in the back of a truck, murdered (and God knows what else) by the Palestinians. The Arabs in the truck are yelling “Allahu Akbar!” “God is great!” Terrific religion they’ve got there.

    What is notable, I think, is the jubilant reaction of the crowd. Note the boy who spits on the woman’s corpse. The idea that what is happening is a “terrorist attack” by “Hamas” is a fiction. Hamas is a political entity that rules Gaza with the support of the overwhelming majority of the Palestinians who live there. It is much like Nazi Germany–most Germans were not members of the party, but the vast majority supported Hitler until it was clear that Germany was losing the war. Same thing here, except that until now, it hasn’t been clear that Hamas was losing. Hamas appears to command the loyalty of nearly all of Gaza’s residents.

    This is what real modern day Nazis look like.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  161. Kevin-
    “SO, when Biden said: “This is not a moment for any party hostile to Israel to exploit these attacks to seek advantage” what is he saying? Is this a warning that the US will take action if that happens? Or is it just wishcasting?”

    I think of this as the equivalent to John McCain and his “We are all Georgians now” or Michelle Obama’s #bringbackourgirls.

    The Russians owe the Iranians for munitions and drones, so Iranian proxies in Lebanon and Syria are probably taking advantage as we speak. What is Biden going to do if these groups blow a few things up? Nothing. They are afraid of Israel, not Biden

    steveg (47c506)

  162. Netanhayu was so busy sabotaging the israeli court system so he can continue cashing israeli govt. bottles for their deposits with out going to jail that he didn’t have time to watch what hamas was doing. Any of you think this will be cheaper then buying off Egypt to take over the gaza strip? I keep saying this is the cheaper solution and throw west bank hamas supporters over to gaza. Biden solidifies the jewish vote for 2024 since trump supports putin.

    asset (7c642a)

  163. “And while Trump may be convicted of something by May, he can secure the nomination by March”

    You say that as if the convention cannot pivot come July. Rewrite the rules. It was contemplated in 2016, but the problem was history had not yet spoken on Trump. The “people” in 2016 would never abide by a steal. In 2024, the narrative is different.

    You may argue that peole are even more Trumpified. Well, until they’re not. Even if any conviction will go to appeal and even if Trump uses his status as de facto nominee to continue to battle against the politically-motivated prosecution and conviction, the mask will be off by July.

    A conviction makes Trump radioactive for the general and though 20% of the GOP electorate will want to ride with Trump through fire, most will see that you just can’t win with him…and the danger to the DoJ of a wholesale usurpation is just too great. From May to July the drum beat of inevitable crash with down-ticket implications will grow in crescendo. And that follows 6 weeks of a case that will have awful optics. Trump’s vote counts will steadily errode for the 1,000 delegates awarded after Super Tuesday. His leaf may end up being slight.

    There will be passionate debate about the consciences of pledged delegates and whether the GOP could nominate a convicted felon who might be facing even more awful news as the classified documents case pushes forward. We won’t detect everything crumbling until it does. It may all be driven by some of those early state voters wanting a do-over. It’s hard to imagine law-and-order voters not caring once the system has rendered its guilty verdict. Today’s polls can’t capture the emotion that a conviction portends…

    AJ_Liberty (a3894a)

  164. How’s the wall holding Rob?

    AJ_Liberty (a3894a)

  165. Sam Harris on the difference between Israel and her enemies:

    The truth is that there is an obvious, undeniable, and hugely consequential moral difference between Israel and her enemies. The Israelis are surrounded by people who have explicitly genocidal intentions towards them. The charter of Hamas is explicitly genocidal. It looks forward to a time, based on Koranic prophesy, when the earth itself will cry out for Jewish blood, where the trees and the stones will say “O Muslim, there’s a Jew hiding behind me. Come and kill him.” This is a political document. We are talking about a government that was voted into power by a majority of Palestinians.

    The discourse in the Muslim world about Jews is utterly shocking. Not only is there widespread Holocaust denial—there’s Holocaust denial that then asserts that we will do it for real if given the chance. The only thing more obnoxious than denying the Holocaust is to say that it should have happened; it didn’t happen, but if we get the chance, we will accomplish it. There are children’s shows in the Palestinian territories and elsewhere that teach five-year-olds about the glories of martyrdom and about the necessity of killing Jews.

    And this gets to the heart of the moral difference between Israel and her enemies. And this is something I discussed in The End of Faith. To see this moral difference, you have to ask what each side would do if they had the power to do it.

    What would the Jews do to the Palestinians if they could do anything they wanted? Well, we know the answer to that question, because they can do more or less anything they want. The Israeli army could kill everyone in Gaza tomorrow. So what does that mean? Well, it means that, when they drop a bomb on a beach and kill four Palestinian children, as happened last week, this is almost certainly an accident. They’re not targeting children. They could target as many children as they want. Every time a Palestinian child dies, Israel edges ever closer to becoming an international pariah. So the Israelis take great pains not to kill children and other noncombatants.

    What do we know of the Palestinians? What would the Palestinians do to the Jews in Israel if the power imbalance were reversed? Well, they have told us what they would do. For some reason, Israel’s critics just don’t want to believe the worst about a group like Hamas, even when it declares the worst of itself. We’ve already had a Holocaust and several other genocides in the 20th century. People are capable of committing genocide. When they tell us they intend to commit genocide, we should listen.

    There is every reason to believe that the Palestinians would kill all the Jews in Israel if they could. Would every Palestinian support genocide? Of course not. But vast numbers of them—and of Muslims throughout the world—would. Needless to say, the Palestinians in general, not just Hamas, have a history of targeting innocent noncombatants in the most shocking ways possible. They’ve blown themselves up on buses and in restaurants. They’ve massacred teenagers. They’ve murdered Olympic athletes. They now shoot rockets indiscriminately into civilian areas. And again, the charter of their government in Gaza explicitly tells us that they want to annihilate the Jews—not just in Israel but everywhere.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  166. @166 this argument is brought up every time and goes nowhere for the 60 years I have heard it. Not that its wrong ;but meaningless. I saw a cartoon with netanhayu and a group israeli children standing on a high wall looking down on arab children on the other side. Netanhayu say to the Israeli children some day this will be yours! IDF retired general on why Israel was overwhelmed on southern border. Netanhayu had us sent most of are non-reserve soldiers to west bank new settlements to protect his voters.

    asset (7c642a)

  167. I can’t think of any third party candidate that can win 270 electoral votes.

    No fringe candidate can, particularly not in a year of mainstream fringe candidates. Any sane candidates in the middle will have a solid chance. Don’t expect everyone to care about what Trump or Biden want.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  168. Netanhayu was so busy sabotaging the israeli court system

    You can only say this from an extreme ignorance of what the Israeli Supreme Court was doing. They had become God of the Law, striking down anything they simply disagreed with, and on that basis. At least our courts attempt to tie their decisions to the Law. Not so in Israel.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  169. “And while Trump may be convicted of something by May, he can secure the nomination by March”

    New rule: “No candidate may be placed into nomination who has been convicted of more than 3 felonies.”

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  170. I saw a cartoon

    Try books without pictures.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  171. “How’s the wall holding Rob?”

    What a thoughtless comment.

    lloyd (89ef24)

  172. Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/7/2023 @ 9:40 pm

    LOL!

    Rip Murdock (3961a9)

  173. You say that as if the convention cannot pivot come July. Rewrite the rules……. Trump’s vote counts will steadily errode for the 1,000 delegates awarded after Super Tuesday. ………. It may all be driven by some of those early state voters wanting a do-over……Today’s polls can’t capture the emotion that a conviction portends…

    AJ_Liberty (a3894a) — 10/7/2023 @ 7:52 pm

    I don’t think a Republican convention dominated by Trump delegates and with the RNC leadership beholden to Trump would change the rules. For one thing, at a minimum MAGA voters would abandon the GOP and just not vote if that happens. Or some may resort to violence.

    The number of delegates selected post-Super Tuesday will represent 19-26% of the total delegates, while up to 71% will be selected through ST. Trump also doesn’t need to win every primary contest, as long as he places in the top three he will some delegates.

    The best thing is that Trump’s legal entanglements prove too much and he withdraws from the campaign. I think that is highly unlikely given his nature, but maybe you’re right and Republican voters come to their senses and suddenly start voting for one of the Lilliputians. But they better choose wisely, as there are no voting do-overs.

    Of course, polls are only a snapshot in time. We will just need to wait and see what the polls show in the future.

    Rip Murdock (3961a9)

  174. @171 Must have hit home because you know the cartoon is true. @169 thats trump’s argument too. And he has been a crook as long as trump. In the 1990’s he threatened to bring down the israeli government if he was prosecuted for corruption. Why is bibi cashing in government water bottles for their deposits as he and his wife did and pocket the money. Hamas and hezbolah ( the only war israel lost! ) are waiting bibi.

    asset (7c642a)

  175. I’m not sure you’re internalizing the awfulness of a convicted felon…facing potential prison time and additional convictions… running for the chief law enforcement office. And with his foremost “policy” being to pardon himself and punish the system that dared to hold him to account.

    This stark argument is remarkably not yet indelibly in front of the GOP electorate. You can blame the Lilliputians for that in part, but at some point events will overtake the zombie-moaning narratives of two-tiered justice and political witch hunt. Trump will be in court confronting charges that are no joke. Independents and moderates will no longer have the luxury of voting for a Trump economy over a Biden economy. This will quickly become a referendum on the rule of law and reality-based reasoning. Mathematically, Trump will not win.

    Now Fox, OAN, and Newsmax will eschew objectivity for the more dramatic role of defense attorney…and will have a long line of guests ready to tell us not to believe our lying eyes. But even the most committed bettor knows when to fold ’em. There’s no squinting and seeing a “winner”. Trump’s a criminal and it will no longer be subjective or up for debate.

    Controlling delegates is illusory. That presumes that the delegates do not want to win. At some point self interest will come front and center…and hate for the other will trump Trump. The viability of the GOP will be at stake. It can either have a reality-TV nominee or a chance at winning. It won’t be able to have both….

    AJ_Liberty (a3894a)

  176. I suspect the distinction between “convicted felon” and “civilly adjudicated sexual abuser and fraudster” is lost on most Trump voters. If the latter hasn’t already lit the fuse to immolate his candidacy, I doubt the former will.

    But keep fighting the good fight. I’ll be rooting for you.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  177. I don’t think a Republican convention dominated by Trump delegates and with the RNC leadership beholden to Trump would change the rules. For one thing, at a minimum MAGA voters would abandon the GOP and just not vote if that happens. Or some may resort to violence.

    Only 34% of GOP primary voters call themselves MAGA. Nominating a multiple felon and mesuggenah assh0le might keep them in the party, but would cause the other 66% to reconsider. Also, most independents would definitely vote for Biden over a multiply-convicted Trump.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  178. I’m sure Joe Biden appreciates you running interference for him since he’s a state sponsor of terror.

    The $6 billion was basically a ransom payment, which is bad enough, but the funds are still frozen, so they had nothing to with Hamas’ mass terror attack.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  179. Now Fox, OAN, and Newsmax will eschew objectivity for the more dramatic role of defense attorney

    Were Trump to be nominated, perhaps Fox would do that, but right now you can see them back away. OAN and Newsmax are Lilliputians, to coin a phrase, and are about as important as Trump Social.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  180. Why is bibi cashing in government water bottles for their deposits as he and his wife did and pocket the money.

    Watch the upcoming Israel-Ukraine Assistance Act pass unanimously.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  181. Controlling delegates is illusory. That presumes that the delegates do not want to win

    This. Delegates are usually businessmen or others involved in the political ecosystem. They want friends in high places who can bring them, or at least their community, the benefits that entails.

    If I were a Republican involved in local politics, my number one fear would be a continued erosion of GOP power in the state and in Congress. Even in red states, TRUMP™ costs votes. As it stands, the Dems are going to win 30 seats in Congress in 2024 with Trump at the top of the ticket. Pretty much a wipeout of remaining GOP seats in blue states, and erosion in marginal seats in red states.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  182. I’m not sure you’re internalizing the awfulness of a convicted felon……….

    I’ve never been in favor of Trump becoming President (far from it) so there is nothing for me to internalize. All I’ve been saying is that there is no evidence at this time his voters see any of that as disqualifying. It’s his supporters that have failed at “internalizing the awfulness of a convicted felon.” They. Don’t. Care. MAGAWorld will not be convinced even when he starts losing, both in court and in the primaries, because Trump’s convinced them that an attack on him is an attack on them. And any convention delegates will feel the same way.

    Trump’s poll numbers are what they are. It’s undeniable that he is extremely popular both personally and politically among Republican voters. He’s also viewed as the one most likely to beat Biden. So until those numbers change significantly, his support will not waiver. And the Lilliputians will stay where they are.

    So far there is no evidence of a break between Trump and his voters. Until that happens, it is possible to have a convicted felon as the Republican nominee.

    Rip Murdock (3961a9)

  183. Watch the upcoming Israel-Ukraine Assistance Act pass unanimously.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/8/2023 @ 7:46 am

    Not any time soon, since the House can’t vote on anything until there’s a new Speaker; and b) there are always opponents to aid in both parties to either country.

    Rip Murdock (3961a9)

  184. “I suspect the distinction between “convicted felon” and “civilly adjudicated sexual abuser and fraudster” is lost on most Trump voters.”

    I agree that for many it comes down to “they’re just picking on him” and “why don’t they pursue Biden like that”. I get it…but people start voting in a few months. The immediacy effect starts to focus the attention span. Personally, I see the head-to-head polls as being overly generous to Trump and that those will start to illustrate weakness as we push into 2024. Again, independents and moderates are not as forgiving or nostaligic as MAGAites.

    Also you have a cumulative effect: where there’s smoke there’s fire and the conclusion that it’s all just too much. People will struggle with should we try to elect a newly-minted felon? Do we want to burn down the DoJ for someone whose views about the 2020 election and classified documents are either deluded or congenitally ignorant…or maybe both?

    Traction will depend on how Haley-DeSantis-Christie play this going into January, if right-wing news media starts to go wobbly, and whether Trump starts to lag Biden. The only thing worse than giving up on Trump is to lose to Biden again. Right now Haley looks strong in that respect. It’s a marathon not a sprint.

    AJ_Liberty (a3894a)

  185. Nominating a multiple felon and mesuggenah assh0le might keep them in the party, but would cause the other 66% to reconsider. Also, most independents would definitely vote for Biden over a multiply-convicted Trump.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/8/2023 @ 7:42 am

    We are talking about delegates to the Republican convention, not the general election, but I’m sure you know that.

    Rip Murdock (3961a9)

  186. Not any time soon, since the House can’t vote on anything until there’s a new Speaker; and b) there are always opponents to aid in both parties to either country.

    1) The House can do anything it wants by special order. Probably takes 2/3rds votes, but with that the temporary Speaker can get things done.

    2) Generally the opponents of Ukraine are supporters of Israel, and vice-versa.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  187. AJ_Liberty (a3894a) — 10/8/2023 @ 7:58 am

    I’m just not as sanguine about the future as you are, until I see evidence of any changes. Haley, at best, is still 30 points behind Trump in NH and SC.

    Let’s see what her fundraising numbers look like in about a week, particularly dollars raised for the primary campaign. While the DeSantis campaign said they raised $15M, only $5M can be used for the primary campaign. That will show what Haley’s true strength is.

    Rip Murdock (3961a9)

  188. We are talking about delegates to the Republican convention, not the general election, but I’m sure you know that.

    And I do. Mostly they are car dealers and real-estate brokers, with a smattering of local officials and party bosses. Sure, they pledged to Trump to get elected, but they can come to Jesus like everyone else. Removing the pledge requirements has been tried in the past (1976 and 1980, in challenges to the incumbant) and came close to winning. And it will be tried again, with a MUCH weaker “presumptive” nominee.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  189. Haley, at best, is still 30 points behind Trump in NH and SC.

    By the end of the year there will be 3 alternative candidates left (Haley, DeSantis and Christie), and all the poll numbers will change.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  190. 1) The House can do anything it wants by special order. Probably takes 2/3rds votes, but with that the temporary Speaker can get things done.

    2) Generally the opponents of Ukraine are supporters of Israel, and vice-versa.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/8/2023 @ 8:07 am

    1) Do you have a source?

    2) Which still means that the vote will not be unanimous. There are others (like Rand Paul) who oppose foreign aid on principle and others that that see Europe and the Middle East as “not in our backyard.”

    Rip Murdock (3961a9)

  191. By the end of the year there will be 3 alternative candidates left (Haley, DeSantis and Christie), and all the poll numbers will change.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/8/2023 @ 8:13 am

    So what? Based on current polling, that still total only 40-45% of Republican voters supporting someone other than Trump. It’s just fewer Lilliputians.

    Rip Murdock (3961a9)

  192. You won’t see any Trump supporters suddenly gravitate to the Lilliputians.

    Rip Murdock (3961a9)

  193. 1) Do you have a source?

    There is, of course, discussion here, but the “Speaker Pro Tempore” was created after 9/11 to prevent the House from being powerless in a disaster. Most articles seem to concentrate on the upcoming Speaker election, but there is some discussion of what powers the temporary speaker has.

    There are good arguments that he can function as Speaker now.

    Molly E. Reynolds, senior fellow in Governance Studies at the Brookings Institution, said Wednesday during a panel discussion the role of speaker pro tempore was designed as a way to bolster continuity of government.

    “The language of the rule itself isn’t entirely clear on what powers the speaker pro tem has — whether it’s all of the powers of the Office of the Speaker, or just authorities that allow him to effectuate a new election for speaker,” Reynolds said.

    There are two schools of thought about how much power a speaker pro tempore holds, Reynolds said.

    “I would put myself in the camp that the speaker pro tem, McHenry, has the full powers of the speakership with the possible exception of sitting in the line of succession.” Reynolds said.

    “My logic there is that given how this rule was originally designed, which was to allow someone to act as speaker in the event of a real crisis, that you would not necessarily have wanted to develop a rule that would limit that person’s power in an actual emergency,” Reynolds said.

    House Rules:

    Section 8(b)(3)(A) of Rule I states: “In the case of a vacancy in the Office of Speaker, the next Member on the list described in subdivision (B) shall act as Speaker pro tempore until the election of a Speaker or a Speaker pro tempore. Pending such election the Member acting as Speaker pro tempore may exercise such authorities of the Office of the Speaker as may be necessary and appropriate to that end.”

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  194. So what? Based on current polling, that still total only 40-45% of Republican voters supporting someone other than Trump.

    Based on current polling, most deny he will be convicted of any crime.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  195. others that that see Europe and the Middle East as “not in our backyard.”

    Well, the MAGA cross-section between anti-Ukraine and anti-Israel is antisemite. Thankfully there are very few of those. Doesn’t have to be unanimous, as the House rules allow for the Speaker Pro Tem to act during the interregnum.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  196. Doesn’t have to be unanimous, ………

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/8/2023 @ 8:32 am

    Which is what you just stated a few minutes ago with absolute certainty………

    Rip Murdock (3961a9)

  197. Please quote where I said it had to be unanimous, or where I professed certainty. What I see is this, which is neither:

    The House can do anything it wants by special order. Probably takes 2/3rds votes, but with that the temporary Speaker can get things done.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  198. OK, this then:

    Watch the upcoming Israel-Ukraine Assistance Act pass unanimously.

    This has nothing to do with what powers the Speaker Pro Tem has, and “unanimously” in this context is perhaps hyperbole, but not by much. 420-11 in the House, 98-2 in the Senate.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  199. Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/8/2023 @ 8:27 am


    The powers Speaker Pro Tempore (which existed before 9/11, but whose office was strengthened) are at best untested, as your quote suggests.

    Charles Johnson, a former parliamentarian for the House, previously told The Washington Post that McHenry is “doing the right thing” by keeping his role narrow so far. After he was named acting speaker, McHenry ordered the House into a recess while the Republican conference privately debated who should next fill the chamber’s top role.

    Under this interpretation of the rule, the House could not vote to extend government funding until it has determined who will lead the chamber. ………
    …………….
    (Matt Glassman, a senior fellow at Georgetown University’s Government Affairs Institute) later said he was swayed by “strong evidence for the narrow view” after Rep. Jim McGovern (D-Mass.) unearthed a 2004 House Rules Committee description of the rule that stated the temporary speaker served “for the sole purpose of electing a new Speaker.” But Glassman also said that would not necessarily constrain McHenry from acting more broadly if he wanted to.

    “It’s still up to the current House” to object or not object to Henry’s actions, Glassman told The Washington Post. “McHenry is going to take action. If people acquiesce to them … it becomes the new soft precedent.”
    ………….

    So far the SPT has acted as Speaker by:

    1) He recessed the House under the Rule I, Clause 12(a) authority, which allows the Speaker to recess at the call of the Chair when no business is pending in the House.

    This is significant because (1) it strongly implies the Speaker pro tempore is not simply the equivalent of the Clerk on opening day, who does not have recess authority. He has at least some of the authority of the Speaker from the House rules; and (2) he declared the recess from the chair and no one in the House objected. That doesn’t set a hard precedent, but it’s passive evidence the House agreed with the authority.

    2) He ordered former Speaker Pelosi and former Majority Leader Hoyer to vacate their Capitol hideaway space, under the Speaker’s Rule I, Clause 3 authority to control the House wing of the Capitol.

    This is very significant, in my view, because unlike the recess authority, it’s hard to see how this is related the election of a new Speaker, or at least it’s much less directly related. While it’s easy to read the recess authority as being “necessary and appropriate” to “the end” of conducting the election, it’s harder to see how control of the House wing of the Capitol fits that narrow view of Rule I, Clause 8.

    3) He reportedly announced that he would not be referring bills or taking up legislation until the election of the Speaker is conducted.

    This is the most significant action/precedent in favor of the narrow reading of the authority. ………. If McHenry does not believe he has the authority/duty to do this, he clearly believes he does not have the full power of the Speaker outside the context of the election, even for mundane things. Not doing bill referral grinds the legislative process to a halt. It also implies he might believe he does not have the power to sign enrolled bills and send them to the president.

    4) He has been given a sizeable protective detail, on par with what a normal Speaker would have.

    This is the weakest evidence regarding his authorities, but mildly points toward a wider view of the Speaker pro tempore.
    ……………..

    Number 3 is most important.

    Rip Murdock (3961a9)

  200. Hillary is right that it’s a cult, but she’s wrong as to remedy.
    She didn’t say involuntary deprogramming, she said “formal” deprogramming which, to me, has no meaning but sounds a little menacing. I mean, what’s the difference between formal and informal deprogramming?

    And it is a cult given Trump’s 40-point lead despite all his legal culpability.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  201. Please quote where I said it had to be unanimous, or where I professed certainty.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/8/2023 @ 8:44 am

    Said without qualification:

    Watch the upcoming Israel-Ukraine Assistance Act pass unanimously.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/8/2023 @ 7:46 am

    Rip Murdock (3961a9)

  202. If it’s the Kevin M trifecta, what happens to Indian Beavis?

    urbanleftbehind (c6214e)

  203. This is very significant, in my view, because unlike the recess authority, it’s hard to see how this is related the election of a new Speaker

    It’s an administrative matter, at least as far as Pelosi is concerned. Her office is for the previous speaker, and she is no longer the previous speaker.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  204. He reportedly announced that he would not be referring bills or taking up legislation until the election of the Speaker is conducted.

    He can change his opinion as circumstances warrant. That he does not exercise power does not mean he does not have it. I would view him at this point as the “chairman” of a legislative body, able to rule, but subject to being overruled by a simple majority.

    Now, maybe the Gang of Eight and the Democrats will block anything he does, but I’d find it hard to believe that the Democrats would unanimously block aid to Ukraine or Israel.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  205. How’s the wall holding Rob?

    AJ_Liberty (a3894a) — 10/7/2023 @ 7:55 pm

    Which wall?

    Need to know if you were being anti-Semitic or anti-American.

    NJRob (df0f89)

  206. My question is this: What’s in it for Hamas? Why would they think it’s in their interests to murder and kidnap hundreds of civilians?

    My theory is that Hamas is hoping for such a devastating reaction by the Israelis that the Middle East would turn against Israel, thus blowing up the impending deal with KSA and blowing up the Abraham Accords. What this means is that Israel should not violate the rules of war and international law. Even legitimate strikes will get criticized by militant Islamist partisans and their simpaticos, but as long as Hamas is targeted, should be okay.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  207. Just a reminder that CodePink isn’t anti-war, they’re anti-American and, by extension, anti-Israel.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  208. My question is this: What’s in it for Hamas?

    Iran keeps giving them money. What’s in it for Iran? The deal with KSA blows up, of course, plus reduced opposition to Iranian behavior. Israeli reaction to this is going to be severe — there are factions there which dream of a Greater Israel with all the Arabs “moved” out. This could happen with Gaza now, and that would help Iran’s case for nukes.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  209. Just a reminder that CodePink isn’t anti-war, they’re anti-American and, by extension, anti-Israel.

    Anti-Ukraine, too. For the children.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  210. If it’s the Kevin M trifecta, what happens to Indian Beavis?

    This is too cunning to be understood.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  211. Now, maybe the Gang of Eight and the Democrats will block anything he does, but I’d find it hard to believe that the Democrats would unanimously block aid to Ukraine or Israel.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/8/2023 @ 9:25 am

    I easily can see Republicans (the Gang of Eight and many more) opposing aid to Ukraine, that’s almost a no-brainer.

    I easily can see The Squad blocking aid to Israel-another no-brainer.

    Comedy Gold!

    Rip Murdock (3961a9)

  212. Jim Jordan opposes aid to Ukraine.

    Rip Murdock (3961a9)

  213. I’d find it hard to believe that the Democrats Republicans would unanimously block vote for aid to Ukraine………..

    FIFY

    Rip Murdock (3961a9)

  214. I’d find it hard to believe that the Democrats Republicans would unanimously block vote for aid to Ukraine………..

    Perhaps, but totally unrelated to my comment.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  215. Jim Jordan opposes aid to Ukraine.

    For this reason he will not be elected Speaker. Far more than 5 Republicans will refuse.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  216. I easily can see Republicans (the Gang of Eight and many more) opposing aid to Ukraine, that’s almost a no-brainer.

    If it is attached to Israeli aid?

    Why do you distort entire threads to make points you know are non sequiturs?

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  217. Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/8/2023 @ 10:54 am

    A joint aid package for Israel and Ukraine is purely speculative, as no such legislation exists. I expect the aid to Israel to be a priority once the House leadership race is decided; aid to Ukraine will be much harder to pass.

    For this reason he will not be elected Speaker. Far more than 5 Republicans will refuse.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/8/2023 @ 10:52 am

    The last time the House passed a Ukraine aid package (H.R.5692 – Ukraine Security Assistance and Oversight Supplemental Appropriations Act, 2024) on September 28th, the Republicans voted 101-117 for passage, so it was the Democrats (voting 210-0) that passed the bill. This shows there is a majority of Republicans that do not support aid to Ukraine.

    I would expect at some point a few pro-Ukraine Republicans could be convinced to support a compromise candidate who doesn’t support Ukraine. Polling also shows American people are getting tired of supporting military aid to Ukraine.

    Rip Murdock (3961a9)

  218. As I’ve said before, it’s the responsibility of the Republican majority to provide the votes for the Speaker. I don’t see why that is so hard.

    Rip Murdock (3961a9)

  219. I’m pretty certain that aid to Ukraine won’t be a deciding factor for Republicans voting for Speaker.

    Rip Murdock (3961a9)

  220. As I’ve said before, it’s the responsibility of the Republican majority to provide the votes for the Speaker. I don’t see why that is so hard.

    Because it is stupid. The GOP’s only path to lasting majority is towards the center, not the fringe.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  221. I’m pretty certain that aid to Ukraine won’t be a deciding factor for Republicans voting for Speaker.

    Source for this certainty?

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  222. Israel has declared war officially on Hamas.

    Hamas has said their attack was supported by Iran.

    Will Israel declare war on Iran?

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  223. The Hamas attack supported by Iran may have been in cooperation with Russia.
    The Russians benefit significantly if US is distracted by a war in Israel that requires $$ aid and re-arming. Israel is going to burn tonnage of precision weapons, including precision artillery munitions which will put the Israeli needs in competition with Ukraine who also needs tonnage of precision artillery munitions as well. In the US hierarchy of “arsenal of democracy” military relationships, Israel is way way ahead of Ukraine. Russian, China and Iran would benefit from learning how many regional conflicts the US can supply and it would be in their interest to kick off another brushfire

    steveg (ce3cfa)

  224. I’m pretty certain that aid to Ukraine won’t be a deciding factor for Republicans voting for Speaker.

    Source for this certainty?

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/8/2023 @ 12:23 pm

    The belief that public opinion in their districts in favor of Ukraine does not exceed concerns over crime, immigration, inflation, or other domestic issues.

    Rip Murdock (3961a9)

  225. Will Israel declare war on Iran?

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/8/2023 @ 12:24 pm

    LOL! And fight a two (or three)-front war? If Israel declares war against Iran, then you can expect ballistic missiles raining down onto Tel-Aviv or Jerusalem.

    Israeli can’t reach Iran directly, they would need either aerial refueling from the USAF, or overfly hostile countries:

    Israel can approach its new allies, (the) Arab Gulf states. The latter, such as Saudi Arabia and the UAE that fear Iran, might allow the IAF to cross their air space and even to land there in some remote site for refueling. The IAF can also fly over Iraq to shorten the distance to the targets and save fuel. Iraq, which is under strong Iranian influence, is not friendly to Israel, but Iraq’s air force is weak so it can’t pose a serious threat to the IAF.

    Both Qatar and Saudi Arabia have issued statements in support of Hamas, so overflying the Arabian Peninsula is probably not an option.

    Rip Murdock (3961a9)

  226. Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/8/2023 @ 12:24 pm

    And Israel doesn’t have any strategic bombers, so the USAF would need to send in the B-2s and B-52s. Dumb idea.

    Rip Murdock (3961a9)

  227. As I’ve said before, it’s the responsibility of the Republican majority to provide the votes for the Speaker. I don’t see why that is so hard.

    Because it is stupid. The GOP’s only path to lasting majority is towards the center, not the fringe.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/8/2023 @ 12:22 pm

    It’s a stupidity of their own making. No Democrat is going to vote for any Republican speaker candidate, unless that Republican promises concessions to the Democrats. That Republican candidate would then receive only a minority of Republican votes.

    Republicans will need to find their compromise within their own conference.

    Rip Murdock (3961a9)

  228. And Israel doesn’t have any strategic bombers, so the USAF would need to send in the B-2s and B-52s. Dumb idea.

    Israel can obliterate Iran in an afternoon, all by itself.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  229. The leaders of Hamas live in Qatar, so Qatari support is no shocker

    steveg (ce3cfa)

  230. Will Israel declare war on Iran?

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/8/2023 @ 12:24 pm

    Better question: Will I Israel (at some point) negotiate with Hamas for the release of their hostages?

    Probably yes.

    Rip Murdock (3961a9)

  231. Israel can obliterate Iran in an afternoon, all by itself.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/8/2023 @ 1:52 pm

    LOLI! If true, why haven’t they done so before?

    Rip Murdock (3961a9)

  232. The Saudis will be duplicitous and play both sides, but they hate and fear Iran. The Turks were typically blunt in their support of Palestine. They don’t fear Iran, but they don’t trust them either.
    I think if they had to choose, Saudi Arabia would support attacks on Iran before attacks on Gaza

    steveg (ce3cfa)

  233. I think if they had to choose, Saudi Arabia would support attacks on Iran before attacks on Gaza.

    Since Saudi Arabia is on record blaming Israel for Hama’s attacks on Israel, I really doubt they would switch and support attacks on Gaza.

    Rip Murdock (3961a9)

  234. Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/8/2023 @ 1:52 pm

    Assuming most of which here is true, you are correct that important centers in Iran could be destroyed by Israel.

    It begs the question why Israel hasn’t done anything about Iran’s support for Hamas.

    Rip Murdock (3961a9)

  235. Rip
    I’d guess that Israel has had to operate under some restraints when it comes to attacks on Iran. Iran would probably lash out at US interests in Iraq, Syria, and Persian Gulf if it was going through the worlds worst half day and the US military would be upset to not get a heads up, even though there is no way the US military should be trusted with that information.
    The US military would enthusiastically destroy some Iranian infrastructure if attacked, but would rather not be attacked, dragged into a conflict due to American equipment destroyed and American lives lost.

    steveg (ce3cfa)

  236. Rip
    Wasn’t saying the Saudi’s would support Israeli attacks on Hamas in Gaza in any way. The best Israel will get from the Saudi’s on Gaza would be on record words followed by inaction. I don’t think the Saudi’s would stand in the way of an Israeli attack on Iran by denying airspace. The Saudi’s could say they were not aware of the incursion, the Israeli stealth and Electronic counter measures must have blinded their systems

    steveg (ce3cfa)

  237. “on record critical words toward Israel followed by inaction”

    steveg (ce3cfa)

  238. Rip
    A nuclear response from Israel now would be a gross miscalculation.
    Israel could hurt Iran pretty bad using conventional weapons

    steveg (ce3cfa)

  239. steveg (ce3cfa) — 10/8/2023 @ 2:55 pm

    I was following up on Kevin M’s comment here.

    Nuclear weapons would be needed to destroy Iran’s underground nuclear facilities.

    Rip Murdock (3961a9)

  240. Just saw some people driving around Kirkland in a pickup with US and Israeli flags on it, with a young woman urging support for Israel.

    Jim Miller (e96cbf)

  241. Ann Frank was born in 1929, almost 100 years ago, yet there are still people in this world who will target and kill women and children simply because they are Jews.

    DRJ (f2c6b8)

  242. Better question: Will I Israel (at some point) negotiate with Hamas for the release of their hostages?

    Dear Hamas: We have 10,000 of your fighters here, and we are going to shoot one per minute. Please release out hostages.

    Sincerely,

    The Wrath of God

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  243. Nuclear weapons would be needed to destroy Iran’s underground nuclear facilities.

    Indeed. Israel has declined to build conventional delivery systems that could hit bunkers in Iran. They can hit surface targets conventionally, with a bit of effort, but for dealing with Iranian nukes they’ve pretty much decided to fight fire with fire.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  244. It’s not clear to me what Israel would do if Iran tested a nuke.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  245. At this point, Israel has its hands full with Hamas. I doubt they want to get in a wider war with Iran, and even Hezbollah would put them to a test. Hezbollah raining 150,000 missiles on Tel Aviv would be unacceptable in the extreme, and I think they’d react with a nuke or 3 to stop the bombardment. I think Hezbollah knows that.

    If that threshold was crossed, the US would get involved. We talk about Ukraine vs Taiwan, but Israel is our first love.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  246. Rip
    And I guess I was talking unclearly about the previous and present conflict(s) when I said nuclear weapon use by Israel *in the past* or *in the current* would be a miscalculation (due to escalation above and beyond). I agree with both of you that Iran has infrastructure relating to nuclear weapon development that is probably untouchable with conventional weapons, but I also think that Israel can hurt Iran badly conventionally (and I don’t think the Saudi’s would deny airspace, they would deny that they gave Israel the airspace). That said, direct action by Iran conventional munitions in retaliation could really hurt Israel as well. The series of escalations would be purgative at first, but also very problematic in that it could, maybe would spiral quickly out of control

    steveg (ce3cfa)

  247. Iran Helped Plot Attack on Israel Over Several Weeks (WSJ free)

    DUBAI—Iranian security officials helped plan Hamas’s Saturday surprise attack on Israel and gave the green light for the assault at a meeting in Beirut last Monday, according to senior members of Hamas and Hezbollah, another Iran-backed militant group.

    Officers of Iran’s Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps had worked with Hamas since August to devise the air, land and sea incursions—the most significant breach of Israel’s borders since the 1973 Yom Kippur War—those people said.

    Details of the operation were refined during several meetings in Beirut attended by IRGC officers and representatives of four Iran-backed militant groups, including Hamas, which holds power in Gaza, and Hezbollah, a Shiite militant group and political faction in Lebanon, they said.

    U.S. officials say they haven’t seen evidence of Tehran’s involvement. In an interview with CNN that aired Sunday, Secretary of State Antony Blinken said: “We have not yet seen evidence that Iran directed or was behind this particular attack, but there is certainly a long relationship.”

    “We don’t have any information at this time to corroborate this account,” said a U.S. official of the meetings.

    A European official and an adviser to the Syrian government, however, gave the same account of Iran’s involvement in the lead-up to the attack as the senior Hamas and Hezbollah members.

    Asked about the meetings, Mahmoud Mirdawi, a senior Hamas official, said the group planned the attacks on its own. “This is a Palestinian and Hamas decision,” he said.

    A direct Iranian role would take Tehran’s long-running conflict with Israel out of the shadows, raising the risk of broader conflict in the Middle East. Senior Israeli security officials have pledged to strike at Iran’s leadership if Tehran is found responsible for killing Israelis.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  248. Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/8/2023 @ 4:36 pm

    An unserious response to a serious question. Israel has negotiated with Hamas in the past, but should they do so again, or should the hostages be considered “casualties of war”?

    Rip Murdock (3961a9)

  249. What Iran did to Israel is no different than Afghanistan did to us on 9/11.

    Time to see who supports whom

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  250. https://twitter.com/GLNoronha/status/1711128665243722088?

    Wall Street Journal confirms that Iran plotted, organized, and approved the attack on Israel with Hamas.

    The plots started in August, the same month when Biden’s $6 billion ransom payment was announced.

    Keep making excuses for Biden.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  251. An unserious response to a serious question. Israel has negotiated with Hamas in the past, but should they do so again, or should the hostages be considered “casualties of war”?

    Israel is going to occupy Gaza and sort everyone out into Hamas and not-Hamas. I think they hope that the hostages survive to that point, at which point they’ll be able to negotiate. If the hostages have been killed, then things take a different path. You have to realize that Benjamin Netanyahu is not inclined to mercy here and may not give a flying frack what people say about his actions.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  252. The plots started in August, the same month when Biden’s $6 billion ransom payment was announced.

    True: The money had nothing to do with paying for these attacks.

    Also true: The deal would have been scuttled had these attacks happened first.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  253. Blaming Biden for this attack is like blaming Queen Victoria for Little Big Horn.

    nk (6df182)

  254. Israel is going to occupy Gaza and sort everyone out into Hamas and not-Hamas

    Wow-what a lapse in Israeli security if you know that for certain.

    Rip Murdock (63bba3)

  255. BS Kevin. Biden’s weakness and support of Iran is a hige reason for these terroristic attacks.

    Biden like Obama supports the #1 state sponsor of terrorism, Iran.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  256. https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2023/10/jaccuse-2.php

    But, more importantly, in a larger sense the Biden administration has contributed both to the notion that Hamas was a legitimate Middle East player, and to the perception that the U.S. was backing away from its traditional support for Israel—to the delight of Hamas—based on the following inexplicable policies:

    1) In February Secretary of State Blinken had bragged that not only had the Biden administration resumed massive aid to the PLA cancelled by Trump, but cumulatively had transferred $1 billion—even as Palestinian authorities bragged that they would continue to pay bounties to the families of “martyrs” (i.e., those killed while conducting terrorists attacks against Israel).

    And millions of American dollars also went into Gaza, run by Hamas—despite the Biden administration’s efforts to keep mostly quiet the resumption of such inexplicable support. In this regard, note the current shameful State-Department (“U.S. Office of Palestinian Affairs”) website news release that was posted after today’s attack. It ended with this quite embarrassing, morally equivalent admonition:

    “We urged all sides to refrain from violence and retaliatory attacks. Terror and violence solve nothing.”

    “All sides?” “Refrain from retaliatory attacks?”

    So Israel is the moral equivalent of terrorists executing civilians and brutalizing their corpses? And the IDF then is not supposed to retaliate against these killers?

    This Biden State Department insanity cannot stand. So expect some apparatchik to take down this Munich-like posting as soon as possible. Ed.: That has happened.

    2) The Biden administration had recently released some $6 billion to Iran through a prison swap deal that saw South Korea hand over embargoed Iranian money to Qatar—despite Tehran’s increased anti-Israeli rhetoric and its loud brag about the escalation. We should assume money for rockets (Hamas claims they have launched 5,000, and have received 100,000 of them via the Damascus airport) and weapons in general for Hamas were supplied by Iran, which again is likely the chief catalyst for this surprise attack.

    3) Almost immediately, after his inauguration Biden mobilized to resume the bankrupt Iran deal. And in unhinged fashion he appointed the anti-Israeli bigot, pro-Iranian journalist Robert Malley as America’s chief negotiator. Note that Malley is now under FBI investigation for security breaches, involving disclosing classified U.S. documents and also for allegedly helping pro-Iranian activists and propagandists land influential billets inside the U.S. government.

    A reminder how Biden has gotten in bed with these terrorists.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  257. If the hostages have been killed, then things take a different path. You have to realize that Benjamin Netanyahu is not inclined to mercy here and may not give a flying frack what people say about his actions.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/8/2023 @ 5:46 pm

    I’ll put you down as the hostages being “casualties of war.”

    Rip Murdock (63bba3)

  258. Captain of the ship is responsible for it at all times. Biden wanted the job
    I will say that a lot is made of the Israeli intelligence failure, but Biden’s CIA didn’t do so well either.
    So I guess I can say that Biden is leadership responsible for the US intelligence failure and the magnitude of surprise.
    The US voter is also responsible because we elected someone who is always going to be asleep at the wheel and is oblivious to what is being delegated.
    We are all responsible for that in a sense because we allowed ourselves to be in a spot where the choice was either Trump or a befuddled old puppet

    steveg (ce3cfa)

  259. I see that Russian hacker group, Killnet has told Israel that they will be cyberattacked to support Hamas due to Israeli support of Ukraine (?)

    I’m sure Putin will get right on it and put a stop to it

    steveg (ce3cfa)

  260. Israeli intelligence is the primary source for the CIA when it comes to Gaza.

    And IIRC Trump provided info on Israeli intelligence to Russia – I wouldn’t be surprised if Russia passed that right along to Hamas.

    SamG (4e6c22)

  261. @243 hamas we should be so lucky. Kevin I like you :but please understand real politick. I don’t like to criticize other posters.

    asset (750e12)

  262. @252 Hamas wants nothing more then Israeli invasion. Street fighting house by house is a lot a fun. See: Falujah and lebanon. Also defensive weapons have overcome the advantage of offensive weapons for close in fighting. Israel left invading lebanon with their tail between their legs because of the heavily casulties. the first war Israel lost!

    asset (750e12)

  263. I will say that a lot is made of the Israeli intelligence failure, but Biden’s CIA didn’t do so well either.

    True about the Israeli and American failure to ferret out their plot, but another way to see it is that Hamas (and their Iranian sponsors) had exceptional operational security to pull off a surprise attack like this.
    To me, it only affirms that the Iranians were involved in this plot, and it further affirms that Israel isn’t just at war with Hamas, and they shouldn’t be limited to strikes in Gaza when there are legitimate targets to be hit in Iran.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  264. The Iranian terrorist state that is helping Hamas’ terrorist attacks against Israel is also helping the Russian terrorist state in its terrorist attacks against Ukraine.
    It’s all of a piece, which is why the Republicans who support Israel’s right to exist and aid to same should also be supporting Ukraine’s right to exist and related aid for their self-defense.
    This is why a hyperpartisan hack like Jim Jordan should not be Speaker.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  265. @264 CIA depends on Israel for tactical intelligence on gaza. CIA does strategic intelligence on ME and Iran. Paul why do you end with legitimate targets in Iran? Do you really thank Iran will say thank you very much may I have another? You should end with what their response will be. and its cost to U.S. gulf states, Iraq and Israel. Probably others too!

    asset (750e12)

  266. Unless Iran has a nuke, asset, we shouldn’t worry about what their response would be. They’re a terrorist state that is long overdue for a strike where it hurts.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  267. @267 “we”? The pentagon disagrees with you as do most others who know what would happen. During world war II people who didn’t have to pick up a gun and hit the beach talked about starting a second front now! As for gaza house to house fighting is not fun. Ask some one who came back from fallujah in the iraq war. Tunnels and booby traps (IED) are not fun either.

    asset (750e12)

  268. These people may not be as bad as the Trump cult yet, but they’re giving them a good run for their money. As soon as the danger of Trump returning to power is off the table, I really do hope the sensible left and sensible right find a way to offload their lunatic fringes and return our governing polity to a semblance of sanity.

    Yes, I do believe in unicorns and hope everyone gets a pretty pony.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  269. NOW, THEREFORE, I, JOSEPH R. BIDEN JR., President of the United States of America, do hereby proclaim October 9, 2023, as Columbus Day. I direct that the flag of the United States be displayed on all public buildings on the appointed day in honor of our diverse history and all who have contributed to shaping this Nation.

    nk (700e82)

  270. #241 Turns out that there were two small, but loud and competing demonstrations in Kirkland yesterday. That much I got from TV news reports.

    (I wasn’t expecting that, orI would have stayed to cover them.)

    Jim Miller (fda39b)

  271. Ocasio-Cortez’s and the squad’s founding group the Democrat Socialists show they are anti-Israel and anti-American as they celebrate Hamas.

    https://www.jns.org/democratic-socialists-of-america-holds-pro-palestine-rally-in-new-york-city/

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  272. How many terrorists has Biden let through our open borders?

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  273. NJRob (eb56c3) — 10/9/2023 @ 6:02 am

    Ocasio-Cortez’s and the squad’s founding group the Democrat Socialists show they are anti-Israel and anti-American as they celebrate Hamas.

    It’s been known for some time that they are linked – the worst so faar was astatement in 2022 that DECLARED THAT ALL ISRAELIS SHOULD BE CONSIDERED SETTLERS – which means that they are targets for being killed – but this shows how important this alliance is to the DSA. At least they did not outright endorse what Hamas did, and called for a ceasefire, but some woman brought a swastika, positioned on her cell phone screen, held up to the camera in a picture which was put today on the front page of the New York Post.

    Sammy Finkelman (b434ee)

  274. NJRob (eb56c3) — 10/9/2023 @ 6:19 am

    How many terrorists has Biden let through our open borders?

    I expect nne, or no active one, since terrorist groups would risk operational security in doing that – they are just people on a list, and, as of now, the cartels are probably terrified of being linked to terrorism – that may change in te event of a war with Mexico.

    And the people complaining about this are not serious, because if any terrorists attempt to cross into the United States, and are intercepted, they sold not be turned back, but arrested and interrogated and taken to Guantanamo. Not be thrown back into the sea.

    Sammy Finkelman (b434ee)

  275. Sammy,

    your dedication to open borders and the destruction of our society shows no bounds.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  276. @253

    The plots started in August, the same month when Biden’s $6 billion ransom payment was announced.

    True: The money had nothing to do with paying for these attacks.

    Also true: The deal would have been scuttled had these attacks happened first.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/8/2023 @ 5:48 pm

    Also, also true: anyone who keeps harping on the fact that Biden’s ransom payment has zero influence fails to understand the concept of fungibility of international cash.

    Iran now knows that those frozen cash will be unfrozen at some point, so immediate plans can be adjusted.

    whembly (1fe49d)

  277. From now on there must be no talk of peace, or any settlement of the Arab-Israeli dispute. Iran, acting mainly through Hamas and Hezbollah has a veto and will exercise it. Any talks must be held in absolute secrecy and the result sprung on the world by surprise with no expectation of further progress in the year or two following it, and must be geared to created a military and political alliance between |Israel and an Arab state it is negotiating with. Nothing else will last. There can only be quiescent enemies and military allies and nothing in between.

    Sammy Finkelman (b434ee)

  278. At least until the mullahs are gone from power in Iran and Hamas and Hezbollah as well.

    Sammy Finkelman (b434ee)

  279. Israel was asleep. And probably penetrated. I don’t believe it was by cyber means, and doubt the U.S. handed inadvertently over information about what |Israel knew except for the fact that the Biden Administration kept talking with Iran , and did not urge Saudi Arabia to speed things up with Israel, meant that their plans were still a secret.

    And Hamas, I think, has different leadership than what Israel knows and the people who planned this probably left Gaza before.

    This murderous attack was undoubtedly caused by the coming improvement in Israeli relations with Saudi Arabia, which was taking too long. Iran could do nothing about the Abraham accords
    because it was sprung on them too suddenly, but they had enough time to upset this applecart – which wasn’t such a great idea in the first place.

    Sammy Finkelman (b434ee)

  280. Israel is going to occupy Gaza and sort everyone out into Hamas and not-Hamas.

    Why waste the time? Just treat everyone in Gaza as Hamas.

    Rip Murdock (e4cbbc)

  281. The plots started in August, the same month when Biden’s $6 billion ransom payment was announced.

    August may be when some Iranians got got more actively involved, but planning goes back at least six months and probably at least a year.

    For the past couple of weeks, according to Nahum Barnea, cited by Thomas Friedman in the NYT, Hamas conducted practice exercises (which were ignored, just like the Egyptian mobilizations in 1973 were explained away) Barnea considers this a worse day in military terms than the blunders which led to the Yom Kippur war.

    The people in charge of Israel\s defense probably paid no attention because they expected Hamas to use tunnels, and they had achieved a foolproof system for detecting and destroying tunnels going into Israel – and indeed it was foolproof. In fact no tunnels were used here although lots of other methods to get into Israel were used by Hamas.

    They also thought Hamas was deterred but maybe Islamic Jihad was not. and concentrated on disarming Islamic Jihad (a more directly controlled by Iran terror group.
    his.

    Sammy Finkelman (b434ee)

  282. Rip Murdock (e4cbbc) — 10/9/2023 @ 7:33 am

    Why waste the time? Just treat everyone in Gaza as Hamas.

    That won’t fly, since it is not true.

    Much simpler: Just cut off the water and electricity from Gaza, maybe gradually ratcheting it up. Demand that Gaza be turned over to some other party that will disarm iut of rockets at least, and refuse to allow safe conduct ot of thr Hamas and other terrorist leadership unless amnd until they release all the hostages.\
    Cutting off power and water is against international law, but other methods are both less humane and less effective and Hamas has disregarded all laws of war. Some even wore Israeli uniforms to get people at the music festival to flee in their direction and be massacred. Some 260 people were killed there – and some shot in the legs to facilitate capture.

    Sammy Finkelman (b434ee)

  283. 47. Rip Murdock (6afd61) — 10/6/2023 @ 2:13 pm

    What specific policy concessions should House Republicans make to entice Democrats to vote for a Republican Speaker, or to enter into a “grand bargain”?

    Appropriations and the size of the deficit.

    Sammy Finkelman (b434ee)

  284. Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/8/2023 @ 5:46 pm

    You have to realize that Benjamin Netanyahu is not inclined to mercy here and may not give a flying frack what people say about his actions.

    |If he does he should not invade, but simply gradually cut off the water and power and food.

    It will cause no casualties to Israel. But it is more clearly in violation of the laws of war, while bombing and an invasion are not, being an example of an exercise in self defense

    Sammy Finkelman (b434ee)

  285. Te danger of an Israeli invasion is that even if it succeeds then Hezbollah could open up a second front – at least with missiles. Iron Dome was somewhat overwelmed this time already.

    Sammy Finkelman (b434ee)

  286. “We don’t have any information at this time to corroborate this account,” said a U.S. official of the meetings.

    A European official and an adviser to the Syrian government, however, gave the same account of Iran’s involvement in the lead-up to the attack as the senior Hamas and Hezbollah members.

    New York newspapers have better spies than the CIA – and they operate in the open so they are not technically spies.

    Sammy Finkelman (b434ee)

  287. True about the Israeli and American failure to ferret out their plot, but another way to see is..

    My take-away is that the technical means the US relies upon utterly failed here, and Hamas managed to avoid human assets from learning of the plot. Both of these things should be worrisome going forward, but especially the first one as it may not be easily corrected.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  288. 242. DRJ (f2c6b8) — 10/8/2023 @ 4:20 pm

    Anne Frank was born in 1929, almost 100 years ago, yet there are still people in this world who will target and kill women and children simply because they are Jews.

    And many people who won’t admit that that is what is happening

    Sammy Finkelman (b434ee)

  289. This is why a hyperpartisan hack like Jim Jordan should not be Speaker.

    And why he cannot get 217 votes. Scalise has a better chance.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  290. Rip Murdock @200.

    2) He ordered former Speaker Pelosi and former Majority Leader Hoyer to vacate their Capitol hideaway space, under the Speaker’s Rule I, Clause 3 authority to control the House wing of the Capitol.| This was eitheer done by the House |Administration Committee, or by Speaker Kevin McCarthy, “on his way out the door.”

    All committees continued functioning unlike the situation at the start of a Congress, where the committees needed to be set up.

    Sammy Finkelman (b434ee)

  291. Ask some one who came back from fallujah in the iraq war.

    Plenty of Marines did come back. Not so much the other guys. Go tell one of those Marines that they lost in Fallujah.

    ISIS did recover, of course, but that had more to do with the feckless pandering of the Obama administration than anything. One of the (few) things Trump did right was give the US military a green light on ISIS.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  292. I really do hope the sensible left and sensible right find a way to offload their lunatic fringes and return our governing polity to a semblance of sanity.

    Why would the Left change after you vote for them?

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  293. Iran now knows that those frozen cash will be unfrozen at some point, so immediate plans can be adjusted.

    Or maybe not. If that cash is still under US control, expect Biden — a man of forked tongue in the best of times — to renege now.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  294. Credit where due: The Washington Post actually published an article on a Republican candidate, who is not the Loser.

    Long regarded by many as an afterthought in the Republican race, Haley is gaining some steam in New Hampshire, leapfrogging Ron DeSantis into a still-distant second behind Trump in some recent polls, as the struggling Florida governor puts the bulk of his time and resources into Iowa’s first-in-the-nation GOP caucus. Boosted by well-received debate performances, slow-but-steady campaigning and a new surge of spending, Haley is trying to seize a narrow opening in a pivotal state. Her pitch has piqued growing interest from moderate voters such as Weir, even as Haley has embraced more polarizing positions on some issues.

    (I hope the reporters who wrote this article, Hannah Knowles and Dylan Wells, aren’t fired for this lapse — by “mainstream” media standards.)

    Jim Miller (fda39b)

  295. Long regarded by many as an afterthought in the Republican race, Haley is gaining some steam in New Hampshire

    The question remains on whether Trump will leave the field and/or have his support collapse, in time for any of this to matter.

    I think that either Trump is the nominee or Haley is. Trump is obviously the leader here, but he’s got more baggage than Jacob Marley. Can he drag it all to the finish line?

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  296. Why waste the time? Just treat everyone in Gaza as Hamas.

    Well, that would be the default, at least with adult men. I would think that the Israelis can spot jihadis easier than most.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  297. @290

    This is why a hyperpartisan hack like Jim Jordan should not be Speaker.

    And why he cannot get 217 votes. Scalise has a better chance.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/9/2023 @ 8:03 am

    I really don’t have any issue with Jordan being Speaker, other than he’s not going to be effective.

    Scalise, if nothing else, would be amazing as the Democrats would have to deal with a public figure who survived an assassination attempt of a deranged leftist… as a visible reminder that rhetorics can be deadly.

    whembly (5f7596)

  298. Cutting off power and water is against international law,

    They have now announced a full siege, cutting off water, power, food and fuel. They will not relent while hostages remain, at a minimum.

    https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/10/09/world/israel-gaza-war-hamas

    Israel’s defense minister ordered a “complete siege” of the long-blockaded Gaza Strip on Monday, as its forces battled Palestinian militants in border towns for a third day and launched retaliatory strikes that hit a mosque and a marketplace in Gaza.

    Defense Minister Yoav Gallant said that “no electricity, no food, no water, no fuel” would be allowed into Gaza, in effect trying to cut off the crowded coastal territory already under a 16-year blockade.

    Israeli officials say the strikes have targeted sites linked to Hamas, the militant group that controls the territory. U.N. and Palestinian officials say a hospital, homes and mosques have been hit. At least 560 Palestinians have been killed, according to authorities in Gaza, and at least 2,900 others have been injured.

    As Israel mobilized 300,000 reservists, it sent troops and tanks to the south to prepare for what military officials said would be the next stage of the war, which analysts said could involve a ground invasion of Gaza. But such an operation seemed unlikely to begin until Israel secures its own territory, and its timing and scale remained unclear because Hamas and other militants are holding so many Israelis hostage.

    Here’s what else to know:

    * Hamas’s armed wing, the Al Qassam Brigades, said that four Israelis being held by the militants were killed in an Israeli bombardment overnight, along with the Palestinians holding them captive. The claim could not be independently verified.

    * The White House said it had confirmed the deaths of nine Americans in the attack by Hamas and that other Americans remain unaccounted for. A number of other foreign nationals also have been confirmed dead or missing.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  299. I wonder what Israel will do if Egypt tries to resupply Gaza from the south. My betting is that Egypt won’t. I’m also expecting a naval blockade of Gaza ports.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  300. he nusic festival is described as a rave, defined in Wikipedia as “a dance party at a warehouse, club, or other public or private venue, typically featuring performances by DJs playing electronic dance music.”

    Sammy Finkelman (b434ee)

  301. I really don’t have any issue with Jordan being Speaker, other than he’s not going to be effective.

    Refusing to bring up any bill to fund Ukraine is a showstopper for about half the Republican Conference. Ans, as we have seen, it only takes 5 votes to block a Speaker. To get elected, Jordan would have to publicly support funds for Ukraine and he won’t.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  302. The music festival was open air, closer to Woodstock than the Roxy.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  303. We could experience the same scale of attack here in the US even if our borders were entirely closed: we have our own religious fanatics, and very dense cities where their attacks can lead to a very large body count.

    Sam G (8d2ed1)

  304. the Al Qassam Brigades, said that four Israelis being held by the militants were killed in an Israeli bombardment overnight

    They might have killed them but said Israeli bombs did while in reality no prisoners were at that site. Hamas has plenty of prisoners to spare. They might have killed some at the start. At first I eard they had 163, but later I heard Hamas was claiming 130. Ad bodies were treated without respect to say the least. They might have been killed in Gaza.

    Sammy Finkelman (b434ee)

  305. The silliest news thread in the MSM about the Hamas attack regards Biden’s diplomacy in the region and how it affects the Saudi deal. Denial is the first stage of grief.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  306. We could experience the same scale of attack here in the US even if our borders were entirely closed: we have our own religious fanatics, and very dense cities where their attacks can lead to a very large body count.

    Our response in Afghanistan, while ultimately futile, established that there was a high price to pay for attacking the US homeland. “Don’t make us come over there!” is a credible threat.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  307. Sam G (8d2ed1) — 10/9/2023 @ 8:41 am

    We could experience the same scale of attack here in the US even if our borders were entirely closed: we have our own religious fanatics,

    \Yes, yes, but there are more such [people outside the country than inside.\

    The 9/11 attackers brought mostly only themseles but at least the pilots were trained. A person unable to smuggle in weapons or explosives can do the ost damage wiith a car (making their own bomb is dangerous or will result in a dud – Terry Nichols had to go to the Philippines, probably to get trained by Ramsey Youssef. He wasn’t able to build the Oklahoma bomb until then.

    Sammy Finkelman (b434ee)

  308. Hollow words from Rand Paul, who voted against aid for Iron Dome, but it’s not as bad as Ms. Tlaib, who blamed Israel for their “apartheid system that creates the suffocating, dehumanizing conditions that can lead to resistance,” with not a word of condemnation for Hamas’ mass-murdering terrorist assault.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  309. Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/9/2023 @ 8:45 am .

    “Don’t make us come over there!” is a credible threat.

    It’s still working in Afghanistan

    Sammy Finkelman (b434ee)

  310. Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/9/2023 @ 8:34 am

    To get elected, Jordan would have to publicly support funds for Ukraine and he won’t.

    Jordan may say he wants to pass a regular defense bill, so they would still have hope.
    There is a bill awaiting floor action that would authorize aid to Ukraine.

    That’s part of the reason Kevin McCarthy was ready to take it out of the continuing resolution, but he got deposed before that could happen.

    Sammy Finkelman (b434ee)

  311. Jordan could also defuse this by suggesting (even privately) that the Speaker Pro Tem bring a bill to authorize aid to both Israel and Ukraine before the new Speaker is chosen.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  312. I really don’t have any issue with Jordan being Speaker, other than he’s not going to be effective.

    Refusing to bring up any bill to fund Ukraine is a showstopper for about half the Republican Conference. ………

    How so? While less than half of the Republican Conference supported last Ukraine funding package, did they declare they wouldn’t vote for a Speaker candidate who didn’t support Ukraine? Ukraine is their priority issue over everything else?

    Rip Murdock (e4cbbc)

  313. First paragraph in post 313 (“I really don’t have any issue with Jordan being Speaker……..) should have been separately blockquoted.

    Rip Murdock (e4cbbc)

  314. Ukraine, Shmukraine. Jordan has Trump’s endorsement.

    nk (982c93)

  315. You people insist on assigning agency to bits of bread soaking in milk as a snack for the baby.

    nk (982c93)

  316. Whatever the heck that means.

    Rip Murdock (e4cbbc)

  317. Milksops.

    nk (982c93)

  318. It is not that I am unaware that I am often addressing an intellectual vacuum. It is simply that I avoid condescension. (That means talking down to people.)

    nk (982c93)

  319. Rip Murdock (e4cbbc) — 10/9/2023 @ 9:33 am

    Whatever the heck that means.

    I think it means that President Joe Biden has no more brains than bits of bread soaking in milk.

    Actually the biggest thing is that he never seems to know who he is going to speak to or where he is supposed to go next.

    Sammy Finkelman (b434ee)

  320. How so? While less than half of the Republican Conference supported last Ukraine funding package, did they declare they wouldn’t vote for a Speaker candidate who didn’t support Ukraine? Ukraine is their priority issue over everything else?

    No. But they also didn’t declare they would oppose any speaker who wanted open borders, but I bet you they would. It is no secret that many Republicans support Ukraine and see it as non-negotiable. Including several presidential candidates.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  321. Ukraine, Shmukraine. Jordan has Trump’s endorsement.

    And your point? Is that good or bad? Trump also opposes Ukraine aid. There are registered Republicans on this site alone who won’t vote for Trump, or any of his minions, just for that reason.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  322. Comedy Gold!

    Conservative radio host Hugh Hewitt asked (Rep. Kevin McCarthy) — who lost the gavel last week after eight House Republicans joined with Democrats to oust him — on Monday whether he would serve again as Speaker if Republicans are deadlocked on a replacement.
    ………….
    “Look, whatever the conference wants, I will do,” McCarthy said. “I think we need to be strong. I think we need to be united. The eight, in my view, don’t look to be — it was a personal thing.”
    …………
    McCarthy defended the decision (to pass a clean continuing resolution with Democratic votes), pointing to the war breaking out in Israel.

    “They’re the ones who wanted a government shutdown,” McCarthy said. “We wouldn’t be paying our troops while we’re putting out a carrier strike fighter there – 30,000 American men and women in our armed services in the Middle East wouldn’t be being paid right now? I mean, what weakness would we be at?”
    ………..

    Rip Murdock (e4cbbc)

  323. Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/9/2023 @ 10:20 am

    For Jordan, Trump’s endorsement is a good thing.

    Rip Murdock (e4cbbc)

  324. Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/9/2023 @ 10:18 am

    I doubt Ukraine funding is a priority among their constituents.

    Rip Murdock (e4cbbc)

  325. …….. I avoid condescension. (That means talking down to people.)

    Like you’re doing now?

    Rip Murdock (e4cbbc)

  326. Our response in Afghanistan, while ultimately futile, established that there was a high price to pay for attacking the US homeland. “Don’t make us come over there!” is a credible threat.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/9/2023 @ 8:45 am

    I think that was established on April 18, 1942.

    Rip Murdock (e4cbbc)

  327. I doubt Ukraine funding is a priority among their constituents.

    I doubt most of their constituents give a rat’s ass about abortion. But a pro-abortion speaker candidate would have a tough time getting elected.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  328. For Jordan, Trump’s endorsement is a good thing.

    For Jordan, Putin’s endorsement would be a good thing.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  329. Paul Montagu (d52d7d) — 10/9/2023 @ 8:50 am

    California’s second place US Senate candidate Katie Porter and third place candidate Barbara Lee had similar reactions:

    ………..
    Only one of the three leading candidates, Rep. Adam Schiff, expressed unequivocal support for Israel amid its response to the Hamas fighters who surged across its border and kidnapped and killed hundreds of civilians.

    “Right now, Israel is being brutally attacked. It is a victim of terrorist attacks,” Schiff said. “And the only sentiment I want to express right now, when Israel is going through its own 9/11, is unequivocal support for the security and the rights of Israel.”
    ……….
    Porter, a former law professor who represents a swing district in Orange County, appeared to straddle that intra-party divide by expressing support for Israel but then veering into more progressive territory.

    “It is important to remember, as we stand with Israel, as we stand against terror, as we mourn, that we learn the lessons of our own 9/11, which gave rise to hateful Muslim-phobia and civil rights violations,” Porter said at (a Democratic campaign) forum.
    ………….
    “There are lost lives in Gaza and there are lost lives in Israel, and it’s because the United States has allowed terrorism to flourish, and it’s refused to take a strong enough stance against Iran, who is backing Hamas and Hezbollah,” she added.
    ………..
    Lee, who represents Oakland, said she has “always stood for Israel not having to deal with terrorist attacks.” She also said she was praying for people killed on both sides of the conflict.

    “I think it’s important also to understand that right now, in this current crisis, our country has a responsibility, I believe, to call for a ceasefire and to call for the whole world to come together to try to stop the escalation of what is taking place in the Middle East,” she said.
    ………..
    Porter and Lee are part of the “moral equivalence” and “Blame America (and Israel) First’ crowd.

    Rip Murdock (e4cbbc)

  330. Here’s Nikki Haley on the appeasers:

    https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=7297860946910680

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  331. For Jordan, Putin’s endorsement would be a good thing.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/9/2023 @ 10:55 am

    LOL! I doubt Putin’s endorsement would have the same impact as Trump’s. Putin isn’t a kingmaker in the Republican Party.

    Rip Murdock (10a192)

  332. “There are lost lives in Gaza and there are lost lives in Israel, and it’s because the United States has allowed terrorism to flourish, and it’s refused to take a strong enough stance against Iran, who is backing Hamas and Hezbollah,” she added.

    I don’t see this as pro-Hamas. If anything it’s critical of the Biden administration.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  333. Putin isn’t a kingmaker in the Republican Party.

    Yet Trump is indeed King.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  334. Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/9/2023 @ 11:01 am

    It’s blaming America for the attacks. Given that Porter is running as a left wing Democrat, I doubt she had Biden in mind.

    Rip Murdock (10a192)

  335. Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/9/2023 @ 11:02 am

    At the moment, Trump is the leading Republican presidential contender and has far more influence on Republican politics than Putin.

    Saying “ For Jordan, Putin’s endorsement would be a good thing” is a non-sequitur.

    Rip Murdock (10a192)

  336. Rip Murdock (10a192) — 10/9/2023 @ 11:10 am

    Unless you can explain why that is true.

    Rip Murdock (10a192)

  337. @307 and @308: homegrown radicalization is a huge threat, one that too many dismiss.

    Sam G (8d2ed1)

  338. Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Shifts to Independent Presidential Bid

    Robert F. Kennedy Jr. ended his long-shot Democratic presidential bid Monday, announcing plans to run as an independent, which could make him a spoiler in the likely general election face-off between President Biden and former President Donald Trump. Still unclear: who he could pull support from.

    A recent Wall Street Journal Poll found that Kennedy, the scion of the most-storied family in Democratic politics, is favored more by Republicans than Democrats, with 48% of Republicans giving him favorable reviews compared with 21% of Democrats.

    The 69-year-old environmental lawyer made the announcement in Philadelphia, declaring: “We declare independence from the two political parties and the corrupt interests that dominate them and the entire rigged system.” He said it was painful to separate from the party, but said he was now “free of partisan allegiance.”

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  339. While I see RFKJ as a fringe candidate — kind of a LP/Green fusion — the prosepect of Trump v Biden is going to encourage a lot of this.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  340. Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/9/2023 @ 11:24 am

    RFKJr will be destroyed by both the Biden and Trump campaigns. His past comments and positions are a target rich environment.

    Comedy Gold!

    Rip Murdock (e4cbbc)

  341. Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/9/2023 @ 11:26 am

    Does America want to elect a conspiracy-minded, wannabe authoritarian President?

    Oh, wait…….

    Rip Murdock (10a192)

  342. The GOP needs to first decide what it wants to accomplish over the next year or so. With the Democrats controlling the Senate and Presidency and there only being a narrow fractious majority in the House, this will largely be the theater of the small. Nothing substantive will move forward on budgeting since it requires compromise on big contentious issues that seem unlikely in this toxic political environment.

    Immigration? There could be some progress as both sides want to look tough going into 2024, but it’s more likely that they see more advantage is painting the other side as weak or extreme. So comprehensive immigration reform won’t happen.

    Ukraine? Half the GOP is skeptical. Ramaswamy explains that Ukraine might not be worth the investment. Opposing Russian adventurism and savagery? Sending a message to China about our resolve? Standing with our NATO allies? The GOP is genuinely conflicted…or maybe just confused. When the leading candidate doesn’t get it, we probably oughtn’t be surprised that nativist populism builds.

    Oversight! Of course we need our Joe/Hunter Biden investigation with the hopes of a ferreting out the smoking gun or at least maximizing the opportunity to let innuendo do its election magic: of course he’s corrupt and just as bad as Trump. But some are understandably anxious that such an investigation might backfire. Not because Hunter is sympathetic…he’s not…or Joe is above it all…he’s not and is guilty of at minimum ethical lapses, but because the evidence to this point has been uninspiring and that it looks like manufactured outrage.

    So if we want maximum civic disruption….more drama with government shutdowns and Ukraine funding showdowns…then the caucus should go with Jordan. Scalise might be a bit more normal. Patrick McHenry keeping the job is probably more my speed….though I’m not sure I wish it upon him.

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  343. @342

    Does America want to elect a conspiracy-minded, wannabe authoritarian President?

    Oh, wait…….

    Rip Murdock (10a192) — 10/9/2023 @ 11:41 am

    Trump?

    RFK?

    Biden?

    …??

    Jesus wept…

    whembly (5f7596)

  344. @343

    So if we want maximum civic disruption….more drama with government shutdowns and Ukraine funding showdowns…then the caucus should go with Jordan. Scalise might be a bit more normal. Patrick McHenry keeping the job is probably more my speed….though I’m not sure I wish it upon him.

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3) — 10/9/2023 @ 11:43 am

    I dunno… I’m kinda digging Patrick McHenry.

    His “slam” of the gavel was something else and his staffers was saying it was because he was pissed at Democrats for backing the 8 GOPers.

    I always pegged him as someone who’d give Democrats the time of the day… but, here, he may be seeing “what time it is”.

    whembly (5f7596)

  345. I dunno… I’m kinda digging Patrick McHenry.

    He does have that CNN chalkboard era Glenn Beck vibe.

    urbanleftbehind (658f78)

  346. His “slam” of the gavel was something else and his staffers was saying it was because he was pissed at Democrats for backing the 8 GOPers.

    LOL! If that is true, McHenry doesn’t know his congressional history. The minority party has never voted for a speaker of the majority party. It’s more likely he was mad at the”gang of eight.”

    McCarthy didn’t want to negotiate with the Democrats (who certainly would have demanded concessions) to save his speakership, so the Democrats obliged.

    If the roles were reversed, do you think the Republicans would have supported Pelosi?

    Unlikely in the extreme.

    Rip Murdock (e4cbbc)

  347. He does have that CNN chalkboard era Glenn Beck vibe.

    urbanleftbehind (658f78) — 10/9/2023 @ 11:56 am

    With the bow tie it’s more like the 1950s.

    Rip Murdock (10a192)

  348. whembly (5f7596) — 10/9/2023 @ 11:46 am

    I don’t see Biden as conspiracy-minded. Trump and RFKJr, on the other hand, are made for each other.

    Rip Murdock (e4cbbc)

  349. “The minority party has never voted for a speaker of the majority party”

    Could they have voted present? I’m no real fan of McCarthy…as he abides the worse tendencies of the GOP…but he will keep the government open and Ukraine funding flowing. Do the DEMs care about that? Maybe Scalise might also do those things without the partisan sniping… which elicits a big fat meh from me about the entire theatrical affair. What’s best for the country? The question doesn’t seem to come up any more. Normal people look away from the sausage making…and performative gotchas.

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  350. whembly (5f7596) — 10/9/2023 @ 11:49 am

    His “slam” of the gavel was something else and his staffers was saying it was because he was pissed at Democrats for backing the 8 GOPers.

    Source?

    Rip Murdock (e4cbbc)

  351. AJ_Liberty (5f05c3) — 10/9/2023 @ 12:20 pm

    The Democrats could have voted “present”, but they also wanted McCarthy out. He apparently made and broke promises to them, and just before the continuing resolution was passed, McCarthy went on television to blame the Democrats for the government shutdown.

    They also blame McCarthy for Trump’s political rehabilitation. Oh, and authorizing Biden’s impeachment (which would be non-negotiable with the right).

    McCarthy provided no incentives for Democrats to vote for him or stay out of the fight. He wanted their votes to avoid a government shutdown (and undoubtedly pass appropriations bills) but not to be rewarded for their support. Nothing is ever done for free.

    Rip Murdock (e4cbbc)

  352. Hamas announces it will begin to EXECUTE hostages and post video evidence online for every Israeli airstrike as Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu orders Israel’s Defence Forces to besiege Gaza

    It’s the Daily Mail, but still …. civilian hostage taking and reprisals are war crimes.

    Hamas’ armed wing said on Monday it will begin executing an Israeli civilian captive in return for any new Israeli bombing of civilian houses without pre-warning.

    Abu Obaida, spokesperson for Hamas’ armed wing, the IQB, said they have been acting in accordance with Islamic instructions by keeping Israeli captives safe.

    He blamed the intended move on Israel’s stepped-up bombing and killing of civilians inside their homes in air strikes without warning them.

    ‘We have decided to put an end to this and as of now, we declare that any targeting of our people in their homes without prior warning will be regrettably faced with the execution of one the hostages of civilians we are holding,’ he said.

    Gaza City has been devastated by airstrikes today in response to the surprise attack launched by Hamas on Saturday.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  353. “The minority party has never voted for a speaker of the majority party”

    Source?

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  354. McCarthy provided no incentives for Democrats to vote for him or stay out of the fight.

    That’s not entirely true. He gave them the shutdown delay that they wanted, to his great cost.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  355. @352, so the answer is, yes, they could have allowed the overwhelming majority of the GOP vote for the speaker that they preferred but they preferred to punish McCarthy and open up the possibility of dealing with someone even worse than McCarthy (Jordan). Again, was this for the best interest of the country?

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  356. A possible precedent for Israel to follow: The siege of Beirut, 1982. Israel did not engage in house to house fighting in Beirut, but surrounded the city, and demanded that Yasir Arafat and the PLO leave. (one possible problem – they didn’t exile enough bad armed groups.)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Beirut

    The ring around Beirut was closed by 13 June 1982, 7 days after the start of Israeli invasion to Lebanon. PLO and part of Syrian forces were isolated in the city.

    Israel hoped to complete the siege as quickly as possible; their goal all along in invading Lebanon was for a quick and decisive victory. In addition, the United States, through their representative Philip Habib, was pushing for peace negotiations; the longer the siege took, the greater Arafat’s bargaining power would be.

    At first Israelis thought that Maronite forces would eradicate the PLO quasi-government in Beirut, but it turned out that the Maronites were not prepared to undertake this task. For the IDF, the capture of Beirut in street-to-street fighting would have involved unacceptable level of casualties. This is why the method chosen, was the combination of military pressure and psychological warfare to persuade the PLO that the only alternative to surrender was total annihilation.[3]

    For seven weeks, Israel attacked the city by sea, air, and land, cutting off food and water supplies, disconnecting the electricity, and securing the airport and some southern suburbs, but for the most part coming no closer to their goals. As with most sieges, the population of the city, thousands of civilians, suffered alongside the PLO guerrillas. Israel was roundly accused of indiscriminately shelling the city in addition to the other measures taken to weaken the PLO. By the end of the first week of July 500 buildings had been destroyed by Israeli shells and bombs.[4]

    On 14 July, Sharon and chief of staff Rafael Eitan obtained Prime Minister Begin’s support for a large scale operation to conquer West Beirut in order to achieve the eviction of the PLO. But the plan was rejected on 16 July by the full Israeli cabinet, out of concern for heavy loss of life. Some parties threatened to leave the ruling coalition if the plan was adopted.[5]

    At the end of July, with negotiations still deadlocked, the IDF intensified its attacks. Mossad, using their Phalangist contacts, sent Arab agents into Beirut with car bombs in order to terrorize the Palestinians into submission and the Lebanese to increase pressure for their departure. Dozens of people were killed in these bombings. Some of the Israeli agents were caught and ultimately confessed.[5]

    The Israeli Air Force intensified missions specifically designed to assassinate Palestinian leaders – Yassir Arafat, Abu Jihad and Salah Khalaf (Abu Iyad). The Israelis were assisted by agents with transmitters on the ground. Although a number of apartment houses were destroyed with hundreds of Palestinians and Lebanese killed or wounded, the leaders managed to evade bombings.[6]

    On 10 August, when American envoy Philip Habib submitted a draft agreement to Israel, Sharon, probably impatient with what he regarded as American meddling, ordered a saturation bombing of Beirut, during which at least 300 people were killed. That bombing was followed by a protest to the Israeli government by President Ronald Reagan. In response, on 12 August, the Israeli cabinet stripped Ariel Sharon of most of his powers; he was not allowed to order the use of air force, armored force and artillery without agreement of the cabinet or prime minister.[7]

    During the siege, the Israelis secured several key locations in other parts of Lebanon, but did not manage to take the city before a peace agreement was finally implemented. Although Syria had agreed on 7 August, Israel, Lebanon, and the PLO finally agreed, with US mediation, on the 18th. On 21 August, 350 French paratroopers arrived in Beirut, followed by 800 US Marines and Italian Bersaglieri plus additional international peacekeepers (for a total force of 2,130) to supervise the removal of the PLO, first by ship and then overland, to Tunisia, Yemen, Jordan, and Syria. Altogether 8,500 PLO men were evacuated to Tunisia, and 2,500 by land to other Arab countries.[7]

    The hostages complicates matters but the whole thing anyway could rely on the siege. There could be no bombing so long as no missiles are fired.

    Sammy Finkelman (d1850a)

  357. McCarthy provided no incentives for Democrats to vote for him or stay out of the fight.

    That’s not entirely true. He gave them the shutdown delay that they wanted, to his great cost.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/9/2023 @ 1:21 pm

    Apparently it wasn’t enough incentive for the Democrats to vote for McCarthy. I’m sure the Democrats wouldn’t have minded a shutdown, as it would demonstrate the inability of Republicans to govern.

    LOL!🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

    Rip Murdock (e4cbbc)

  358. Re: Elections for Speaker f the House: What about before 1913?

    Sammy Finkelman (d1850a)

  359. Again, was this for the best interest of the country?

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3) — 10/9/2023 @ 1:25 pm

    That’s not the point. The point is what in the best interest of the party. Democrats don’t see any difference who is speaker, unless it’s their leader.

    Rip Murdock (e4cbbc)

  360. @356 if one’s POV is that MAGA is the biggest threat to the US’s interests; that McCarthy has empowered MAGA; that McCarthy fundamentally cannot be trusted; then yes, removing him makes logical sense.

    It’s not the Democrat’s responsibility to save the GOP from themselves.

    Sam G (8d2ed1)

  361. @349

    whembly (5f7596) — 10/9/2023 @ 11:46 am

    I don’t see Biden as conspiracy-minded. Trump and RFKJr, on the other hand, are made for each other.

    Rip Murdock (e4cbbc) — 10/9/2023 @ 12:17 pm

    Listen, Jack… the border is fine, the Afghanistan withdrawal was the best I can do, I can waive a hand to discharge school loans, MAGA people are Nazis, the economy is the best ever and you’ll get two, TWO scoops of icecream! /POTUS… probably.

    whembly (5f7596)

  362. Again, was this for the best interest of the country?

    Not a priority on either side.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  363. Sammy Finkelman (d1850a) — 10/9/2023 @ 1:36 pm

    Here is a CRS Report that includes all Speakers beginning in 1789. You will notice that many speakers didn’t have a party affiliation or were members of historical parties.

    1913 was when the House membership was capped at 435.

    Rip Murdock (e4cbbc)

  364. Sammy Finkelman (d1850a) — 10/9/2023 @ 1:36 pm

    Contact the authors of each report with any other questions.

    Rip Murdock (e4cbbc)

  365. The stakes in 2024:

    1. The GOP will likely retake the Senate — the Dems have too many red state seats to defend. Only running incompetent Trumpists can save the Dems.
    2. The GOP can win the WH with a sane candidate.
    3. The GOP can hold the House iff they have a sane platform/presidential candidate.

    But the GOP will probably run Trump and his ilk and lose all of them.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  366. whembly (5f7596) — 10/9/2023 @ 1:49 pm

    Again, Biden is neither a conspiracy theorist or wannabe authoritarian, while Trump and RFKJr are both.

    Rip Murdock (e4cbbc)

  367. Ukraine, Shmukraine. Jordan has Trump’s endorsement.

    And your point?

    Jordan is a shoo-in, Ukraine or no Ukraine. The milksops will vote the way Trump wants them to.

    nk (8afd43)

  368. “The minority party has never voted for a speaker of the majority party”

    Source?

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/9/2023 @ 1:17 pm

    I’ve already posted the link.

    Rip Murdock (e4cbbc)

  369. Twice.

    Rip Murdock (e4cbbc)

  370. Nathaniel P Banks was Speaker of the House in the 34th Congress. He was a member of a minority party (The American or “Know Nothing” Party), while the pick-up “party” called the Oppostion was a coalition of Whigs, former Whigs, Free Soilers and the new Republicans. He was elected after a months-long speakership battle. The 34th Congress party split was 100 “Oppositionists”, 83 Democrats, and 51 Americans (Know Nothing). So, here we have a minority party speaker elected with votes from the majority party.

    At the opening of the 34th U.S. Congress in December 1855, after the Democrats had lost their majority and only made up 35% of the House, representatives from several parties opposed to slavery’s spread gradually united in supporting the Know Nothing Banks for Speaker of the U.S. House of Representatives. After the longest and one of the most bitter speakership contests on record, lasting from December 3, 1855, to February 2, 1856, Banks was chosen on the 133rd ballot.[26] The coalition supporting him was formed by his American Party (known as the Know Nothing Party) and the Opposition Party, which opposed the Democrats, marking the first form of a coalition in congressional history. This victory was lauded at the time as the “first Republican victory” and “first Northern victory” – although Banks is officially affiliated as Speaker from the American Party – and greatly raised Banks’s national profile.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  371. @367

    whembly (5f7596) — 10/9/2023 @ 1:49 pm

    Again, Biden is neither a conspiracy theorist or wannabe authoritarian, while Trump and RFKJr are both.

    Rip Murdock (e4cbbc) — 10/9/2023 @ 2:00 pm

    By all means, keep ignoring the Biden administration then.

    whembly (5f7596)

  372. In the last 113 years, after the House capped its membership at 435 seats, and the modern system of party leadership was introduced, only one Democratic congressman crossed party lines (James Traficant) to vote for a Republican speaker (Dennis Hastert). Traficant was then stripped of his committee assignments.

    Notably, in 2001, a Member who bore the designation of one major party voted for the nominee of the other. Although the table below does not indicate the party affiliation of the Members voting for each candidate, examination of other available records confirms that no such action had occurred at least for the previous half century.9

    9 Subsequently, in organizing for that Congress (the 107th), the party caucus against whose nominee the Member voted declined to provide him with committee assignments.

    Source, p. 4

    I doubt is either the Republicans or Democrats would change this history.

    Rip Murdock (e4cbbc)

  373. Flashback December 2022: Bursting the ‘unity speaker’ bubble

    ………….
    1. You would need to convince nearly every Democrat to vote for a Republican speaker
    …………..
    2. There’s no real back channel trying to make this happen
    ………….
    3. Democrats would want something in return for electing a GOP speaker.
    …………
    4. Centrist Republicans would also be at political risk.
    …………
    5. Democrats want to see the GOP squirm.
    …………..

    While this was written about McCarthy’s speaker election , it applies equally to the current speaker fight.

    Rip Murdock (e4cbbc)

  374. @283 Netanhayu says you didn’t go far enough he is cutting off food to the children of gaza. Who is killing children now?

    asset (2dba43)

  375. @357 try lebanon 2005 the war Israel lost. Also half of Israel loathes the bottle deposit crook netanhayu just as the democrats and trump republicans loathe each other.

    asset (2dba43)

  376. Will Hurd drops out of 2024 Republican presidential race and backs Nikki Haley

    FWIW.

    Former Texas Rep. Will Hurd announced Monday that he is ending his campaign for the Republican presidential nomination in 2024 and is endorsing former South Carolina Gov. Nikki Haley.

    “Unfortunately, it has become clear to me and my team that the time has come to suspend our campaign,” he wrote in a statement, adding that “it is important to recognize the realities of the political landscape and the need to consolidate our party around one person to defeat both Donald Trump and President (Joe) Biden.”

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  377. @283 Netanhayu says you didn’t go far enough he is cutting off food to the children of gaza. Who is killing children now?

    The ones holding them hostage. Hamas is holding all of Gaza hostage, and are widely hated for it. But go on with your moral equivalence. It’s telling.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  378. homegrown radicalization is a huge threat, one that too many dismiss.

    Sam G (8d2ed1) — 10/9/2023 @ 11:15 am

    I’m glad you recognize antifa as the threat they are.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  379. Again, Biden is neither a conspiracy theorist or wannabe authoritarian, while Trump and RFKJr are both.

    Rip Murdock (e4cbbc) — 10/9/2023 @ 2:00 pm

    Assertion without evidence and plenty of evidence to the contrary. See the manipulation of government against conservatives, see the suits against Elon Musk, etc.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  380. Netanhayu says you didn’t go far enough he is cutting off food to the children of gaza. Who is killing children now?

    asset (2dba43) — 10/9/2023 @ 3:48 pm

    He told them to leave.

    Your support of terrorists is noted.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  381. Former Texas Rep. Will Hurd announced Monday that he is ending his campaign for the Republican presidential nomination in 2024 and is endorsing former South Carolina Gov. Nikki Haley.

    “Unfortunately, it has become clear to me and my team that the time has come to suspend our campaign,” he wrote in a statement, adding that “it is important to recognize the realities of the political landscape and the need to consolidate our party around one person to defeat both Donald Trump and President (Joe) Biden.”

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/9/2023 @ 4:54 pm

    When was he in the race?

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  382. NJRob (eb56c3) — 10/9/2023 @ 5:24 pm

    LOL!! 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🥲🥲

    Rip Murdock (e4cbbc)

  383. Rip,

    trolling the world for all to see.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  384. Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/9/2023 @ 4:54 pm

    Will Hurd’s best moment, maybe the best moment of the campaign of anyone so far. I’d like to see other candidates be so forthright.

    Rip Murdock (e4cbbc)

  385. https://www.dailywire.com/news/proud-of-what-has-occurred-scenes-from-inside-philadelphias-pro-hamas-rally

    People who we should deport if we accept illegal aliens (after they are vetted and determined to deserve asylum. )

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  386. Rob, you’ve obviously staked a side and not a position. Homegrown threats exist on both left and right – and if you were honest about it you’d simply acknowledge that as factual.

    Re Netanyahu telling them to leave: where pray tell are they to go? The border with Egypt is closed. No other Arab nations will take them.

    SamG (4e6c22)

  387. NJRob (eb56c3) — 10/9/2023 @ 5:36 pm

    LOL! Being called a troll by you is not an insult.

    Rip Murdock (e4cbbc)

  388. Will Hurd’s best moment,

    Oh, I dunno, Rip. Staying out of prison is a better reason for running for President than most of the narcissistic, pompous, self-absorbed, self-centered, and selfish megalomaniacs who have ever run for the office have had.

    If only it were true in Trump’s case, it would be praise. Faint praise, but still a compliment.

    nk (3ec966)

  389. So, if we found ourselves in a shooting war in the Middle East, who would we want in charge?

    * Joe Biden
    * Kamala Harris
    * Donald Trump
    * Ron DeSantis
    * Vivek Ramswamy
    * Tim Scott
    * Mike Pence
    * Chris Christie
    * Nikki Haley

    I see at most 3 here who have the wit, and only one I’d feel confident in.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  390. News item: FBI Says It Sees No Specific Threat From Hamas to the U.S.

    Should we be worried?

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  391. A humble suggestion: An Israeli raid on Qom to collect up a few dozen mullahs for trade purposes.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  392. nk (3ec966) — 10/9/2023 @ 5:46 pm

    If any of the current Republican candidates made a similar statement to Republican voters, I would be more inclined to vote one of them. Sadly, I don’t expect them to do so.

    Rip Murdock (e4cbbc)

  393. I’ll take those on the list that are sober-minded; substance over performative behavior; and with the foreign policy acumen/skills to form a coalition of allies so we’re not alone in said shooting war.

    SamG (4e6c22)

  394. Homegrown threats exist on both left and right – and if you were honest about it you’d simply acknowledge that as factual.

    Re Netanyahu telling them to leave: where pray tell are they to go? The border with Egypt is closed. No other Arab nations will take them.

    SamG (4e6c22) — 10/9/2023 @ 5:39 pm

    So antifa is a homegrown threat?

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  395. Possibly, though less likely than right-wing/religious radicals.

    SamG (4e6c22)

  396. Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/9/2023 @ 6:07 pm

    I think Israel has its hands full right now.

    Comedy Gold!

    Rip Murdock (e4cbbc)

  397. Thanks for saying what I expected SamG.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  398. Yes, I take the threat of right wing religious extremists – and the long dehumanization campaign against liberals – as a serious threat. I’d hope everyone would: sadly, I know that too many do not because they believe they are on the same side as them.

    SamG (4e6c22)

  399. 381 Leave? to where is a 2 year old child to leave too? Gaza is 2 miles wide and 25 miles long and its borders are closed. That is intellectually dishonest answer.

    asset (cde900)

  400. @386 here is two we should deport if anyone would take them is tommy tupperville and matt gaetz.

    asset (cde900)

  401. SamG projecting his own extremism on to “right wingers.”

    Those scary conservative Christians. They might pray for you.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  402. @402 They might blow up an abortion centers too or shoot up a temple or black church.

    asset (cde900)

  403. I see at most 3 here who have the wit, and only one I’d feel confident in.
    Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/9/2023 @ 5:53 pm

    I see one and only one name that commands enough fear and loathing from most of the world that would immediately move the needle everywhere. You know the name.

    The very reason he is loathed and feared in our own country is proof of his credible threat value. Every other name is preferred – even by our enemies. You wanna make our enemies happy? No one likes a nuke….

    felipe (9bcc73)

  404. 381 Leave? to where is a 2 year old child to leave too? Gaza is 2 miles wide and 25 miles long and its borders are closed. That is intellectually dishonest answer.
    asset (cde900) — 10/9/2023 @ 6:56 pm

    Kevin is correct that the innocents of Gaza are being held hostage, being used as human shields by Hamas. You say that no one will take them in which is cold-hearted of you to project. But say that you are right that no other country would take them in, what does that tell you about the Gazans? What does it tell you about the other countries? Are you taking in any refugees? What does that tell us about you?

    felipe (9bcc73)

  405. @405, didn’t the “innocents” of Gaza vote in Hamas, who then took to killing off their political rivals Fatah. The sane Hamas who senselessly just butchered, raped, and abducted hundreds of Israelis. I’m all for Christian charity, but what exactly is owed at this moment?

    Israel left Gaza in 2005. The workability of a one-state or two-state solution has always been frustrated by muslim militant group’s insistence on destroying Israel. We see more of it today, enabled by the theocracy in Iran.

    The Palestinians have to decide that they love their children and their children’s future more than they love their hate of Israel. It’s folly to think that some other nation can force this to happen…

    As to @404, I’ll just continue to shake my head. There’s an irony to preach Christian charity while advocating for Trump. I’ll leave it there…

    AJ_Liberty (909d33)

  406. A note on Israelis cutting off water and electricity: They shouldn’t do it, and for the same reason that Russians shouldn’t be bombing Ukrainian electrical grids, because of the cost to civilians, and it breaches the rules of war.

    I said earlier that Hamas needs to be destroyed, all the way down to the foot soldiers, but who to replace them? As craptastic as their leadership is, I think it needs to be those who run the West Bank, and put both territories under the same rule.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  407. The very reason he is loathed and feared in our own country is proof of his credible threat value

    That’s not a good enough reason to put a mentally unhinged malignant narcissist with subzero character and who undermined our democracy back in the Oval Office, IMO. Haley will do just fine.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  408. I agree, AJ, that the Gazans aren’t “innocent”, because they initially voted Hamas into power, but most are still civilians. The challenge will be separating the militant Islamists from the non-combatants, but every one should be hunted down.

    In the spirit of “a single death is a tragedy, a million deaths are a statistic”, here’s the personal story of May Hayat, who could’ve easily been murdered with the other 260± who were slaughtered at that music festival, but miraculously escaped death.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  409. @407

    A note on Israelis cutting off water and electricity: They shouldn’t do it, and for the same reason that Russians shouldn’t be bombing Ukrainian electrical grids, because of the cost to civilians, and it breaches the rules of war.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d) — 10/10/2023 @ 6:08 am

    I think we need to accept the cold, hard realties of war.

    Israel is literally at war with Hamas.

    Hamas’ military need power/food/water.

    Israel is under no obligation to feed their opponent.

    There are times that you cannot win a war with just surgical assaults and precision bombs.

    This is one of those times.

    Palestinian has chosen their leaders.

    Palestinian has chosen to remain there and fight.

    …and there’s going to be a lot of ‘reapin’ and ‘sowin’.

    For me, Israel needs to go all Romans. Salt Gaza and let it be a reminder in history that Israel is here to stay.

    whembly (5f7596)

  410. Please keep in mind there was precisely one election in Gaza, 17 years ago, and Hamas was given a plurality not a majority. There has not been another election since, and Hamas represses dissent.

    Average age in Gaza in 19.

    SamG (4e6c22)

  411. I think we need to accept the cold, hard realties of war.
    Israel is literally at war with Hamas.

    That’s a poor excuse to commit war crimes, whembly. Like with Russia, Israel is a signatory to the Geneva Conventions, which is a promise to minimize civilian casualties. Yes, Israel is “literally at war”, but there’s no reason for them to lower themselves to Hamas’ barbaric levels.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  412. whembly (5f7596) — 10/10/2023 @ 6:53 am

    Would you have Israel kill the entire population of Gaza (2.4M)?

    Rip Murdock (e4cbbc)

  413. California baseball star Steve Garvey makes bid for US Senate as Republican

    California baseball legend Steve Garvey launched a campaign on Tuesday as a Republican candidate for the U.S. Senate seat that was held by the late Democratic Senator Dianne Feinstein.
    ……………
    California, which has not elected a Republican to the Senate since 1988, will vote in the November 2024 general election to fill Feinstein’s seat. ……..

    So far, 14 candidates – including six Republicans – plan to run next year, according to Federal Election Commission data. The most prominent Democratic candidates are three current members of the U.S. House of Representatives: Barbara Lee, Katie Porter and Adam Schiff. (Current US Senator Laphonza) Butler has not said whether she will seek election to the seat.

    Garvey, who left baseball in 1987, told Reuters in an interview on Monday that he would run as a common-sense candidate and look to tackle quality-of-life issues in the high-cost state.

    With his folksy manner and his celebrity, the former Most Valuable Player and All-Star might be more likely to make it through California’s so-called jungle primary……….
    …………..
    Garvey declined to describe his politics in detail and would not say whether he supported former President Donald Trump’s bid to become the Republican Party’s nominee for the 2024 presidential election.
    ………….

    US Senators have very little influence on quality of life issues in their state. State and local governments are more likely to have an impact on those issues.

    Rip Murdock (e4cbbc)

  414. @411

    Please keep in mind there was precisely one election in Gaza, 17 years ago, and Hamas was given a plurality not a majority. There has not been another election since, and Hamas represses dissent.

    Average age in Gaza in 19.

    SamG (4e6c22) — 10/10/2023 @ 6:56 am

    And? Same could be said of Japan and German in WW2.

    Anyone there can see there’s a lot of human shielding, kidnapping, outright rape and murdering, all under the auspexes of their political organization.

    It’s palestinian who gives the Hamas political power. It’s also within palestinian’s power to overthrown these murderous monsters.

    The fact they haven’t should tell you something.

    whembly (5f7596)

  415. @412

    That’s a poor excuse to commit war crimes, whembly. Like with Russia, Israel is a signatory to the Geneva Conventions, which is a promise to minimize civilian casualties. Yes, Israel is “literally at war”, but there’s no reason for them to lower themselves to Hamas’ barbaric levels.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d) — 10/10/2023 @ 7:06 am

    I want you to look at the scenes that these monsters perpetuated and really think what you’re asking.

    Hamas are monsters.

    They only understand power and death.

    There’s no room for half-measures anymore.

    whembly (5f7596)

  416. @413

    Would you have Israel kill the entire population of Gaza (2.4M)?

    Rip Murdock (e4cbbc) — 10/10/2023 @ 7:09 am

    If that’s what it takes to eradicate Hamas, then yes.

    Good news though. I don’t think Israel has to.

    whembly (5f7596)

  417. Paul, I agree with you that the power and water shouldn’t be turned off….and that indiscriminate bombing should be avoided. My suspicion is that most Palestinians do support Hamas and its radicalism. We don’t exactly see a lot of condemnation of the Hamas attacks coming out of Gaza…though I haven’t strained to find them. It’s more of the same.

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  418. You guys tell me what, exactly should be done after reading the following:
    https://twitter.com/i24NEWS_EN/status/1711697093151056355
    https://twitter.com/i24NEWS_EN/status/1711718195025821976

    Hamas has no place in this world, and every option is on the table.

    whembly (5f7596)

  419. Hamas are monsters.
    They only understand power and death.
    There’s no room for half-measures anymore.

    Yes, Hamas are monsters. A group that beheaded 40 babies deserves to be wiped off the face of the earth. But let’s keep it to Hamas, not a civilian populace of 2.3 million. The Carthage approach is not a 21st century solution, and Israel would pay a severe price if they went down that road.

    BTW, whembly, Hamas was elected to power in 2006, and then violently took over in 2007, so we don’t know what the will of the people is. The territory is less free than Russia, which is saying something.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  420. whembly,

    You need to consider carefully the consequences of committing war crimes in Gaza. You are literally talking about ethnic cleansing. How will Israel stand in the world after that? Will they still get arms from the US? Will Netanyahu be in danger of an involuntary trip to the Hague? Will this drive the internal politics of Isreal to the awful place of impossible division that we now endure?

    I really don’t know how Isreal deals with this moment. Bulldozing Gaza and salting the earth? Maybe, but those people and their resentments will go someplace, unless you kill all of them. That des not strike me as anything you can call right, and I doubt it will improve Isreal’s security much at all, because Isreal’s security depends on friends.

    Appalled (8ef096)

  421. Gaza needs to be dealt with like Dresden under the Nazis.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  422. @421

    whembly,

    You need to consider carefully the consequences of committing war crimes in Gaza. You are literally talking about ethnic cleansing.

    No.

    Israel is going to be methodical… they’re even communicating to Gazan when/where to move before they re-engage.

    What other nation does that? Certainly not the US.

    How will Israel stand in the world after that?

    Israel will do what they need to do to survive, and having Hamas at their border is untenable, so all options are on the table.

    Will they still get arms from the US?

    Yes.

    Will Netanyahu be in danger of an involuntary trip to the Hague?

    No.

    Will this drive the internal politics of Isreal to the awful place of impossible division that we now endure?

    Doubtful.

    Bibi’s political “mortal” opponent has offered to work with Bibi in creating a government for the express purpose to address this.

    I really don’t know how Isreal deals with this moment. Bulldozing Gaza and salting the earth?

    Yes. The Gaza experiment is a failure. There’s no redemption.

    Maybe, but those people and their resentments will go someplace, unless you kill all of them. That des not strike me as anything you can call right, and I doubt it will improve Isreal’s security much at all, because Isreal’s security depends on friends.

    Appalled (8ef096) — 10/10/2023 @ 8:02 am

    The rest of the world must encourage, cajole and yes, even threaten nations like Egypt/Jordan/Syrian to take the Palestinians.

    That includes massive foreign aids and the likes.

    But Gaza need to be done, and the West Banks is possibly next depending on what they do in future.

    whembly (5f7596)

  423. All the people dancing on the head of a pin: you know what will happen when Iran gets a nuke, right?

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  424. There will never be a Palestinian state. Ever.

    This is going to be a hard lesson, for even the Israelis.

    Adjust accordingly.

    whembly (5f7596)

  425. Whembly. FYI, courtesy of Google:

    eth·nic cleans·ing
    /ˌeTHnik ˈklenziNG/
    noun
    the mass expulsion or killing of members of an unwanted ethnic or religious group in a society.

    This is what you are talking about.

    Appalled (8ef096)

  426. Whembly, NJRob, if you support killing millions of innocent people (including kids, babies, mothers, etc) because people who lived there killed thousands of innocents, and they did do because they felt that Israel killed their innocents, then it seems like you have a lot of philosophical similarities to Hamas.

    Nate (200ff4)

  427. @426

    This is what you are talking about.

    Appalled (8ef096) — 10/10/2023 @ 8:23 am

    This is a war to end the Hamas.

    So what does that look like?

    I don’t know, but Hamas must cease to exist.

    whembly (5f7596)

  428. @427

    Whembly, NJRob, if you support killing millions of innocent people (including kids, babies, mothers, etc) because people who lived there killed thousands of innocents, and they did do because they felt that Israel killed their innocents, then it seems like you have a lot of philosophical similarities to Hamas.

    Nate (200ff4) — 10/10/2023 @ 8:25 am

    Nate, I say this all the feelings I can must.

    Go play in a busy highway with that.

    I’m not advocating wanton killing of innocent people. Unlike the Hamas.

    I’m advocating that Hamas must be destroyed, completely. If Palestinians cannot help themselve in hosting Hamas, or another terroristic political entity. The Gaza, itself, must be on the table.

    The reason why they’re in this mess, is because of half-measures.

    whembly (5f7596)

  429. Don’t avert your eyes to this:
    https://twitter.com/MarinaMedvin/status/1711703980588388681

    whembly (5f7596)

  430. I take the threat of right wing religious extremists – and the long dehumanization campaign against liberals

    Not very self-aware here.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  431. > Palestinian has chosen their leaders.

    > Palestinian has chosen to remain there and fight.

    Neither of these statements is true in any meaningful sense. They have not the money to go elsewhere, and nowhere is letting them in in meaningful numbers.

    The last election was before most Palestinians alive today were old enough to vote.

    The people of Gaza are victims of Hamas, too, without the power to remove them or to leave.

    aphrael (4543ab)

  432. The very reason he is loathed and feared in our own country

    Fear and loathing are not strategies. Trump is probably better than Kamala Harris. Maybe. But he’s an idiot and a fool and an an incompetent one at that.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  433. @432

    neither of these statements is true in any meaningful sense. They have not the money to go elsewhere, and nowhere is letting them in in meaningful numbers.

    The last election was before most Palestinians alive today were old enough to vote.

    The people of Gaza are victims of Hamas, too, without the power to remove them or to leave.

    aphrael (4543ab) — 10/10/2023 @ 8:35 am

    So, what you’re saying is that war is ugly.

    Yes, I agree.

    Now what?

    whembly (5f7596)

  434. Rip Murdock (e4cbbc) — 10/10/2023 @ 7:09 am

    Would you have Israel kill the entire population of Gaza (2.4M)?

    Daniel Pipes wrote yesterday in t he Wall Street Journal (it came out yesterday, and the stock markets were also open, although it was not a business day for the banks, and the Post Office and most schools were also closed) that the population of Gaza is 2 million, but he also wrote:

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/israels-opportunity-to-destroy-hamas-gaza-attacks-biden-5b942e18

    An estimated 250,000 to 350,000 young adults have left the strip since Hamas took over in 2007

    (they emigrated both legally and illegally, some to Libya where they crossed the Mediterranean to Italy or even drowned, Voting with their feet, as Reagan used to say. Many semi-legal (first stage is legal0 are university graduates)

    Here’s a link that the Pipes article gives to young men leaving Gaza

    vhttps://www.terrorism-info.org.il/en/the-mass-exodus-of-young-men-from-the-gaza-strip/ Their initial destination is Turkey, from where their intention is to continue to other countries, primarily European countries and Canada.

    The issue recently made headlines after on September 9, 2023, there were violent clashes between hundreds of young Gazans and the security guards of a travel agency in Gaza City which had received a monopoly for issuing visas to Turkey. A number of people were injured and the company’s offices were damaged. As a result, issuing visas to Turkey was suspended and only renewed on September 17, 2023.

    Apparently the exodus is increasing and the events at the travel agency’s offices was a manifestation of the growing demand for visas. For example, according to reports, in one week 18,000 applications for visas to Turkey were submitted and there was a waiting list of 83,000 to leave the Gaza Strip through the Rafah Crossing. In addition, Internet data showed a significant increase in searches for the word “emigration” by Palestinian surfers.

    Sammy Finkelman (8d7a46)

  435. didn’t the “innocents” of Gaza vote in Hamas, who then took to killing off their political rivals Fatah.

    45-41%, at which point the winners starting killing off the losers and no elections have been held since. Even assuming the 2006 election was legit, the actions since give every Gazan cause to regret the outcome, no matter which way they voted.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  436. Let’s suppose that Trump had started rounding up all the Democrat politicians and shooting them in 2017. Would this be the fault of his 60 million voters? Or would it be the fault of Trump and whomever was enabling his dictatorship?

    It should be pointed out that quite a few players in the area found Hamas’ rule convenient for them, including Israel.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  437. Viden is scheduled to speak at 1 pm EDT today, The reason he put the lid on early yesterday was that he was being interviewed by the special prosecutor about classified documents. He has issued no statement on this since Sunday. It will be interesting to see what he has to say about Iran, about preventing the war from spreading, (probably vague threats or warnings) about bills in Congress and about Americans killed or taken hostage by Hamas.

    Sammy Finkelman (8d7a46)

  438. I kinda feel like if the people the runs your government are cutting the heads off of Israeli babies and stacking their bodies, raping and kidnapping your neighbors…and there’s no collective outrage that your government condones?

    Maybe you all don’t deserve a country of your own.

    whembly (5f7596)

  439. @437

    Let’s suppose that Trump had started rounding up all the Democrat politicians and shooting them in 2017. Would this be the fault of his 60 million voters? Or would it be the fault of Trump and whomever was enabling his dictatorship?

    It should be pointed out that quite a few players in the area found Hamas’ rule convenient for them, including Israel.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/10/2023 @ 8:43 am

    Trump would face near universal condemnation, even from his own supporters.

    Kevin, help a guy, where’s the condemnation by Gazans? Surely there must be some…

    whembly (5f7596)

  440. In the Gaza election, the only parties were armed groups I think, and Hamss ran against corruption, and perhaps many people didn’t They haven’t recovered Jerusalem like they said they wanted to do. Just gotten Gaza bombed. Especially those places not so friendly to them, where they like to store weapons,

    Sammy Finkelman (8d7a46)

  441. Whembly, NJRob, if you support killing millions of innocent people (including kids, babies, mothers, etc) because people who lived there killed thousands of innocents, and they did do because they felt that Israel killed their innocents, then it seems like you have a lot of philosophical similarities to Hamas.

    Nate (200ff4) — 10/10/2023 @ 8:25 am

    Your providing aid and comfort to the Nazis is noted.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  442. A note on Israelis cutting off water and electricity: They shouldn’t do it, and for the same reason that Russians shouldn’t be bombing Ukrainian electrical grids, because of the cost to civilians, and it breaches the rules of war.

    Give it a week and only Hamas cells will have fuel, electricity and heat. It will make targeting easier.

    This is war, and unconventional war. Hamas is in violation of just about every article of the Geneva Convention, and so the “Rules of War” do not apply to them — they are all war criminals and have no rights.

    They do not carry arms openly, they do not wear uniforms or other clear identification, they do not have a clear chain of command, they do not observe rules for prisoners of war. They take civilian hostages and threaten reprisal killings. They use their own civilians as human shields and place armaments within hospitals and schools.

    There is not requirement to apply the “rules of War” to combatants that themselves do not. Israel would be entirely justified in executing all Hamas captives they find, so long as they can establish they are indeed Hamas.

    Video explanation: https://youtu.be/v010HXpfFSA

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  443. I can’t help but see the parallels.

    Hamas “policy”, written in their charter, is the “destruction of Israel”. From the get-go, they’re on the side of a one-state solution, with that one state being Palestine, from the sea to the Jordan River. Going by their current ongoing mass-terror attack, they’re willing to commit horrendous crimes against humanity toward that end.

    Putin’s “policy” is that Ukraine doesn’t exist because it’s actually Russia, which he made clear in his July 2021 speech, and despite Ukrainian protestations against being conquered by his sheethole country. Putin seeks a one-state solution, with that one state being Russia, and he’s willing to commit horrendous crimes against humanity toward that end.

    Hamas has taken 100 or so Israelis hostage, places unknown. Putin has taken tens of thousands of children out of Ukraine, holding them hostage in Russia, places unknown.

    Although not confirmed, it is likely that Hamas has taken Americans hostage. It is confirmed that Putin has taken Americans hostage, the latest being the WSJ reporter.

    Terrorist state Iran is supplying weapons to Hamas for their jihad against Israel, and terrorist state Iran is supplying weapons to Russia for their cultural genocide against Ukraine.

    Hamas fires its missiles and artillery at civilian targets. Russia fires missiles and artillery at civilian targets.

    It’s all of a piece, not an either-or like that fool Josh Hawley is presenting (he should be “redirected” out of elective office). It’s in our national interests to weaken Putin by supporting Ukraine, and it’s in our national interests to destroy Hamas by supporting Israel’s fight against them.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  444. If the number od applications for visas to Turkey suddenly rose is September , maybe a lot of people knew something was coming, The training to cross the border probably couldn”t be kept conmpletely hidden from other people in Gaza. But infr=orming Israel is punishable by death. Anyway this is a unobtrusive indication that Israel missed.

    Sammy Finkelman (8d7a46)

  445. US Senators have very little influence on quality of life issues in their state. State and local governments are more likely to have an impact on those issues.

    US Senators generally approve all federal appointments within their state and the Senate rarely confirms those they would block. The federal courts and agencies have a great deal of influence in a state.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  446. Gaza needs to be dealt with like Dresden under the Nazis.

    Noted, your thumbs-up for mass war crimes, Rob. A good German goose-stepper couldn’t have expressed that better.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  447. Like with Russia, Israel is a signatory to the Geneva Conventions, which is a promise to minimize civilian casualties.

    The Geneva Convention does not require a combatant to honor many of those rules when the other combatant does not. Taking civilian hostages and threatening reprisals, not to mention the intentional and retail murder of “enemy” civilians, all set Hamas outside the protections of the Rules of War.

    Shorter: They are not soldiers, they are terrorists. They offer no quarter and deserve none.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  448. Gaza needs to be dealt with like Dresden under the Nazis.

    No, but it does need to be dealt with like the Soviets dealt with Nazis.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  449. Good news though. I don’t think Israel has to.

    I don’t think that Israel can do so. Not only would it be a horrific crime, but it would lead to the destruction of the Israeli state as every other country in the world treated them as monsters.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  450. Noted, your thumbs-up for mass war crimes, Rob. A good German goose-stepper couldn’t have expressed that better.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d) — 10/10/2023 @ 8:59 am

    So you think firebombing Dresden was a war crime. Good to know you stand with the Nazis against civilization.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  451. Shorter: They are not soldiers, they are terrorists. They offer no quarter and deserve none.

    I agree that they’re not soldiers, Kevin, but the Geneva Conventions aren’t about the behavior of the other side, they’re about the behavior of the signatories, and we’re all signatories because we agreed that another Dresden-style fire-bombing, the kind of mass murder that Rob is rooting for, is a bad idea.

    If captured, those unlawful combatants don’t qualify for POW status, only that they treated humanely while in confinement. They can be tried for their crimes in Israeli courts of law, and hopefully executed after conviction. Israel does have a death penalty, but it’s rarely used, in part because Israeli hostages held by Hamas would also receive a death penalty. Nevertheless, they should pay an ultimate price for their depraved acts.
    I feel like this is a repeat of the Iraq War debates circa 2004-2005.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  452. The Geneva Convention, which is a post-WWII agreement, would in fact make firebombing Dresden after said agreement a war crime.

    Rob, learn how time works.

    Sam G (8d2ed1)

  453. So you think firebombing Dresden was a war crime. Good to know you stand with the Nazis against civilization.

    The first bombing might not have been, although Dresden had no military installations. The claim that it was a rail center was true, but the rail center was not targeted. The bombing was indiscriminate “carpet bombing” and was an act of terror. Still, it was a war.

    But the second bombing, 3 hours later, intended to catch rescue workers and survivors out in the open, was a war crime. As were the two further bombings over the next two days. It was inteded to kill as many civilians as possible.

    The bombing was so destructive, and beyond the Nazis understanding of the Rules of War, that the Germans considered abandoning the Geneva Convention in its entirely. In Britain there was dissent, especially as everyone knew that — in February 1945 — that the bombing campaign no longer affected the outcome of the war.

    There is a long discussion of the bombing, its aftermath and how it affected later wars over at Wikipedia

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  454. Sammy Finkelman (8d7a46) — 10/10/2023 @ 8:40 am

    Your response is a complete non-sequitur to my question.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  455. US Senators generally approve all federal appointments within their state and the Senate rarely confirms those they would block. The federal courts and agencies have a great deal of influence in a state.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/10/2023 @ 8:58 am

    LOL!

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  456. Let’s suppose that Trump had started rounding up all the Democrat politicians and shooting them in 2017. ……

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/10/2023 @ 8:43 am

    Don’t give him any ideas.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  457. AJ_Liberty (909d33) — 10/10/2023 @ 5:43 am

    I’m talking about children, AJ.

    You have it in your head that I am advocating Trump. You are mistaken. I am voting for whomever the Republicans nominate. If it turns out to be Trump that’s not on me.

    felipe (eb9fd3)

  458. So you think firebombing Dresden was a war crime. Good to know you stand with the Nazis against civilization.

    You just can’t help being that asshole, Rob.
    Dresden could’ve been done without incinerating 25,000 civilian souls, and it was a reason the Geneva Conventions came into being.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  459. the Geneva Conventions aren’t about the behavior of the other side, they’re about the behavior of the signatories

    Not so. From Wikipedia:

    The Conventions apply to a signatory nation even if the opposing nation is not a signatory, but only if the opposing nation “accepts and applies the provisions” of the Conventions.

    The provisions for combat with non-state actors are somewhat different, but Hamas is the elected and ruling faction in Gaza and should not be confused with a non-state actor.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  460. it was a reason the Geneva Conventions came into being.

    The Eastern Front, and Japan’s activities in China and the Philippines, were much bigger reasons.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  461. Missed a tag:

    the Geneva Conventions aren’t about the behavior of the other side, they’re about the behavior of the signatories

    Not so. From Wikipedia:

    The Conventions apply to a signatory nation even if the opposing nation is not a signatory, but only if the opposing nation “accepts and applies the provisions” of the Conventions.

    The provisions for combat with non-state actors are somewhat different, but Hamas is the elected and ruling faction in Gaza and should not be confused with a non-state actor.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  462. Rob, learn how time works.

    Sam G (8d2ed1) — 10/10/2023 @ 9:20 am

    The Geneva Conventions aren’t about total war. They are about feeling good for yourself and your superior morality. Israel is in a war for survival. They should look at all options including nukes.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  463. You just can’t help being that asshole, Rob.
    Dresden could’ve been done without incinerating 25,000 civilian souls, and it was a reason the Geneva Conventions came into being.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d) — 10/10/2023 @ 9:39 am

    And Nagasaki and Hiroshima could’ve been done without nukes, but with great loss of American life.

    It’s total war. You either win or you die.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  464. Gaza is a terrorist state. Iran is a terrorist state. They aren’t covered by the Geneva Conventions either. Wipe them out.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  465. From https://x.com/NirACohen77/status/1711447866726666597?s=20 (translation below):

    “It’s half past nine in the evening now, two hours ago I came back from abroad. I’m already in uniform and armed, on my way south to the reserves. I’m going to fulfill my duties as a general officer of the brigade responsible for protecting the border with Jordan and Egypt. Like everyone else, I have no idea how long I will be recruited and what day will be born. As with all the countless times I served in the reserves, this time too, as long as I’m in uniform I won’t write my personal opinions here.
    But just before I silence myself, I would like to write here some of my thoughts.
    1. There is nothing in the world that can justify the massacre of hundreds of innocent people. The hundreds of drownings are subhumans of the lowest kind. The same goes for those who support and justify them.

    2. Now is a time of war, the first thing right now is to protect the home, the country.
    Let’s not get confused, this is not a “war without choice”, it could have been prevented, but now it is too late. Now there is no choice but to take up arms and defend the citizens of Israel.

    3. I am going to defend my country from our enemies. Our enemies are murderous terrorist organizations controlled by Islamic extremists. The massacre of innocent Israelis must not be answered by the massacre of innocent Palestinians.
    It is important to remember, the Palestinian people are not our enemy. Millions of Palestinians who live here with us between the sea and Jordan, are not our enemy. Just like most Israelis, so do most Palestinians, they just want to live their lives in peace and dignity.
    The two peoples who live here, the Jewish people and the Palestinian people, have been held captive for decades by a violent religious minority. On both sides, a violent religious minority drags the conflict into appalling violence. Yes, I compare the leaders of Hamas with the leaders of religious Zionism. On both sides, an extreme religious view dictates violent behavior.

    3. This war will end sooner or later. At the end, both nations will have to reckon with the leaders. We must wake up and not let the extremists rule here. The Palestinians and the Israelis will have to denounce the fundamentalists. The Israelis will have to oust Ben Gabir, Smotrich and their gang from power, and the Palestinians will have to oust the heads of Hamas from power.

    4. At the moment of the greatest rupture in Israeli society, the truth is revealed. The true lovers of the country are revealed, those who do. In contrast, the nakedness of the wretched Twitter tiktok is exposed, a bunch of zeros who, apart from slandering and inciting, contribute nothing to the State of Israel. This is the hour of the doers, the defenders of Israel. At the end of the war we will come to account with the zeros, the heroes of the keyboard.

    5. In the midst of the terrible pain and the enormous brokenness, I try to look for shards of hope. Shortly after the terrible Yom Kippur War, a peace agreement was signed between Israel and Egypt. We must realize that there is no greater security asset than peace. Even the strongest army cannot protect the country the way peace protects. The path of peace will forever be better than the path of war, the one we have been walking on for too long.
    At the end of the war, after thousands of dead Israelis and Palestinians have been buried, after we have finished washing away the rivers of blood, we will have to understand that there is no choice but to follow the path of peace, that is where the real victory lies.

    That’s it, now it’s quiet, I’m leaving cyberspace. I will soon arrive at the base and make my contribution to the defense of the citizens of the State of Israel. The torn heart with the families of the murdered and missing.
    We’ll meet here or over a cold beer at six after the war, we’ll do everything to make this the last war.”

    Sam G (8d2ed1)

  466. Gaza will not be wiped off the face of the earth, despite the desire of some here. I would expect up to 10% of the population to be killed, but short of using nuclear weapons, Israel is not capable of killing 2.4M people. Even the Israeli population would blanch at that. Besides, using nuclear weapons in Gaza would expose Israelis to the fallout.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  467. I also believe that Hamas would like to see a massive invasion by Israel, as a way to bog down the IDF in house to house fighting on their home ground. It’s going to be very bloody for both sides.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  468. The bombing was so destructive, and beyond the Nazis understanding of the Rules of War, that the Germans considered abandoning the Geneva Convention in its entirely.

    The poor Rule of War Nazis would only be left with their approved gas chambers and ovens… 😢

    BuDuh (4214e4)

  469. Jim Miller (d2a9c8) — 10/7/2023 @ 2:46 pm

    I suspect Hamas deliberately targeted that peace festival.

    No question about it, and I suspect they may have been involved in its planning somehow, although details were posted on the Internet. There were 22 sites attacked, The estimated death toll has now risen to 1,600. They were finding bodies in places as late as Monday..

    Sammy Finkelman (8d7a46)

  470. Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 10/10/2023 @ 9:31 am

    Your response is a complete non-sequitur to my question.

    I was only commenting on the population figure of 2,4 million you gave as the population of Gaza.

    Sammy Finkelman (8d7a46)

  471. Biden speech again delayed a bit.

    Sammy Finkelman (8d7a46)

  472. Since the Gazan government does not subscribe to, or apply, the Geneva Convention, Israel is bound only by its own codes of conduct and some generally accepted international laws.

    These will prevent any wholesale killing of civilians and will probably protect captured combatants from summary execution, but their willingness to accept surrender may be minimal, especially where hostages have been held or killed.

    Air strikes will be limited to known or suspected Hamas concentrations, or perhaps infrastructure, and may have collateral damage. But they won’t carpet bomb or target purely civilian locations.

    Israel is sensitive to acts of mass killing. The fact that they are planning a ground invasion reflects their discomfort with an air war, and the difficulty of discriminating between combatants and civilians. This will cost many Israeli lives that would not be lost in a purely air war, so I give them some points for that.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  473. The poor Rule of War Nazis would only be left with their approved gas chambers and ovens

    Yeah, well, that they looked at differently. Both the US and the Nazis observed the Geneva Convention for the most part. The Russians and the Nazis did not. Except for a few negotiated surrenders, both sides shot prisoners as a rule.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  474. Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 10/10/2023 @ 10:03 am

    I also believe that Hamas would like to see a massive invasion by Israel, as a way to bog down the IDF in house to house fighting on their home ground. It’s going to be very bloody for both sides.

    I don’t know about Hamas, but That should be true of Iran.

    Iran probably accelerated this a bit so it probably not even in a nuclear war, but Israel cannot afford to have any iteration of this a few months or later from now but the Iranian nuclear program must be finished off or severely damaged before this is over,

    Sammy Finkelman (8d7a46)

  475. President Joe Biden and Vice President Kamala Harris just recently finished a call they had with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.

    Sammy Finkelman (8d7a46)

  476. Still waiting for President Biden to speak, as I predicted.

    Sammy Finkelman (8d7a46)

  477. Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/10/2023 @ 10:20 am

    The Japanese also did not observe the Geneva Conventions.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  478. This iteration probably will not end in nuclear war, but the same thing cannot be said if there is a ceasefire.

    Sammy Finkelman (8d7a46)

  479. Biden to speak soon.

    Sammy Finkelman (8d7a46)

  480. I was only commenting on the population figure of 2,4 million you gave as the population of Gaza.

    Sammy Finkelman (8d7a46) — 10/10/2023 @ 10:15 am

    Which didn’t need a comment or clarification. Missing the forest from the trees.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  481. It needs be noted that intentional targeting of civilians was allowed under the Geneva Convention until 1949.

    Sam G (8d2ed1)

  482. The fact that they are planning a ground invasion reflects their discomfort with an air war, and the difficulty of discriminating between combatants and civilians.

    LOL! A ground war will produce just as many civilian deaths when they attack Gaza City with heavy armor. Either way a massive number of civilians will die, as will IDF soldiers. Israel should be concerned about their own casualties, not those in Gaza.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  483. I suspect Hamas deliberately targeted that peace festival.

    No question about it, and I suspect they may have been involved in its planning somehow…….

    Completely rank speculation without any basis in fact. What is your evidence?

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  484. So, we all should be good with capturing any Hamas combatants and leadership and try them at the Hague.

    Right?

    whembly (5f7596)

  485. 466 – from Twitter post

    It is important to remember, the Palestinian people are not our enemy.

    That is something that needs to be said by Israel’s interlocutors:

    hat they do not want to be enemies of Israel, and no matter how many of their people are killed,they will still not want to be enemies of Israel.

    Hamas’ massacres were designed to make sure that no Arab leader says that. Or any civilian.

    Any negotiations with anyone who does not say that should not be done or attempted,;;= Millions of Palestinians who live here with us between the sea and Jordan, are not our enemy. Just like most Israelis, so do most Palestinians, they just want to live their lives in peace and dignity.

    On both sides, a violent religious minority drags the conflict into appalling violence.

    Not so, The worst Israeli rightwinger does not say anything beyond saying that the Arabs are irredeemable..
    (and maybe most of the world)

    Sammy Finkelman (8d7a46)

  486. Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 10/10/2023 @ 10:35 am

    What is your evidence?

    They knew too much, including where the parking lot was.

    Sammy Finkelman (8d7a46)

  487. Some had Israeli rescue uniforms

    Sammy Finkelman (8d7a46)

  488. So, we all should be good with capturing any Hamas combatants and leadership and try them at the Hague.

    Right?

    whembly (5f7596) — 10/10/2023 @ 10:35 am

    No, as illegal combatants they would be tried by Israeli courts, to be held as bargaining chips and traded for Israeli hostages or their corpses (which Israel, much to their regret I’m sure, has done frequently throughout its history.)

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  489. Pro-life with some gusto

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  490. They knew too much, including where the parking lot was.

    Sammy Finkelman (8d7a46) — 10/10/2023 @ 10:44 am

    You mean they couldn’t find it on Google Maps? LOL!

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  491. since Saturday, Netanyahu has had three telephone calls with Biden.

    Sammy Finkelman (8d7a46)

  492. Gaza isn’t a nation, Kevin, and they’re under the jurisdiction of the Palestinian Authority (or State of Palestine), which is a Geneva Conventions signatory, so Israel has an obligation to abide. Even leaving that aside, Israel is an “Occupying Power“, having taken those territories in the ’67 war. They may have withdrawn from Gaza, but they still control it by blockade, and Israel pretty much dictates what it does in the West Bank, such as with new settlements.

    Also, the 4th Geneva Convention prohibits collective punishment, which could include acts like cutting off water and electricity across the whole territory.

    The US still follows the rules of war when it comes to al Qaeda and the Islamic State, and Hamas is similarly outlaw as them. We’re still obligated to minimize civilian casualties (no matter how unlikable those civilians are), and to we’re treat detainees humanely until they’re adjudicated or released, even though those terrorist groups have no intention to abide by international law.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  493. It was too well planned,

    Sammy Finkelman (8d7a46)

  494. Cutting off the ekectricity is the most humanitarian thing you could do,

    Sammy Finkelman (8d7a46)

  495. The press hasn’t even yet been called into the room where Biden is to speak.

    Sammy Finkelman (8d7a46)

  496. > So, what you’re saying is that war is ugly.

    No, what i’m saying is that claiming that the people of Gaza have the power to leave, or the power to choose their leadership, is make an untrue claim. If done knowing that it is untrue, it is *lying*.

    aphrael (680200)

  497. It was too well planned,

    Sammy Finkelman (8d7a46) — 10/10/2023 @ 10:47 am

    As you acknowledged, the concert was publicly advertised. The fact that the attack was well planned (with the assistance of Iran) says nothing about your charge the Hamas was part of the concert planning. Everyone probably knew about the concert, it was not a secret.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  498. Electricity was actually left on for three hours,

    Sammy Finkelman (8d7a46)

  499. > they are all war criminals and have no rights.

    Sure. Hamas can die in a fire for all I care.

    But there *are* innocents in Gaza, too, and how Israel takes care of *them* matters.

    aphrael (680200)

  500. Kevin, I said Dresden was a reason.

    And Nagasaki and Hiroshima could’ve been done without nukes, but with great loss of American life.
    It’s total war. You either win or you die.

    I’m not to engage in that argument, about whether or not we should’ve done it. It was a tough call, and we were fortunate that Hirohito packed it in after Nagasaki. But that event was also a reason for the Geneva Conventions, and the point is that you don’t throw them out when you feel inconvenienced by them.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  501. @498

    No, what i’m saying is that claiming that the people of Gaza have the power to leave, or the power to choose their leadership, is make an untrue claim. If done knowing that it is untrue, it is *lying*.

    aphrael (680200) — 10/10/2023 @ 10:50 am

    Just stop subscribing Western principles on these people.

    Hamas are jihadist…meaning, they’re just like ISIS and just as barbaric.

    You cannot reason with them.

    This last saturday wasn’t the only terror attack, only the largest to date.

    They’ve been kidnapping, raping, killing, sending rockets for decades

    And none of the regular populace had condemned, or done anything to reign in the Hamas?

    None at all?

    No. If my government had done that in my name, I’d have zero issue of either:
    a) getting the F out
    b) revolting

    whembly (5f7596)

  502. @502

    But there *are* innocents in Gaza, too, and how Israel takes care of *them* matters.

    aphrael (680200) — 10/10/2023 @ 10:51 am

    Good thing they’re warning the innocents to leave certain areas before the military moves it.

    Give ’em credit for that at least.

    whembly (5f7596)

  503. Good thing they’re warning the innocents to leave certain areas before the military moves it.

    And go where?

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  504. Here’s the latest Vatnik Soup installment, and it’s about Russia’s palling around with militant Islamists like Hamas and Hezbollah. An excerpt…

    Russia has met Hamas leaders of several occasions, and Hamas sent high-level delegation to meet Russian officials early this year. After the attack, Russia “cited concern”, but didn’t condemn Hamas’ terrorist attack. Russia does not consider Hamas a terrorist organization.

    A terrorist organization like Russia wouldn’t be accusing another terrorist organization of being a terrorist organization, no sirree.

    And speaking of Russia, this fake BBC segment asserting that Ukraine smuggled weapons to Hamas smacks of Putin.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  505. Completely rank speculation without any basis in fact. What is your evidence?

    Demanded of Captain Obvious.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  506. So, we all should be good with capturing any Hamas combatants and leadership and try them at the Hague.

    Israel has signed, but not ratified, the ICC accords. I think that they’d just jail them after a tribunal. Any trial would be reserved for leadership they intended to execute — something they do very rarely.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  507. iden atarted. Describes the massacres

    Sammy Finkelman (8d7a46)

  508. Gaza isn’t a nation, Kevin, and they’re under the jurisdiction of the Palestinian Authority (or State of Palestine), which is a Geneva Conventions signatory, so Israel has an obligation to abide

    It is an elected government. Israel does not have an obligation to abide by an agreement that is so grossly violated. But feel free to sue them.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  509. > Just stop subscribing Western principles on these people.

    I’m not. I’m saying the overwhelming majority of the two million people living in Gaza have nowhere to go, no power to choose who is running the place, and no prospects for a better future unless something changes.

    That doesn’t make them westerners culturally. But it means that most of them have lived the entirety of their lives as helpless victims of things they can’t control, with no options available to them — something most of us in the west simply can’t imagine because *our* lives are so much better.

    But it’s much easier for us to assume there must be a solution that they’re just not choosing to take, because it makes us feel better about the world and helps us hide from the fact that this tragedy has been a festering sore on humanity for the entirety of all of our lives.

    aphrael (680200)

  510. Also, the 4th Geneva Convention prohibits collective punishment, which could include acts like cutting off water and electricity across the whole territory.

    That is not a “collective punishment” but a non-violent military action aimed at reducing the ability of Hamas to continue. You can spin it how you want, but that’s how Israel will portray it. We bombed effing dams in Vietnam.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  511. And go where?

    Somewhere else. It’s not a postage stamp. Note that the US bombed residential areas in Iraq in an attempt to kill Saddam before the actual invasion. They were all wealthy (read: Baathist) areas, and hardly “innocents.”

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  512. @505

    And go where?

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 10/10/2023 @ 11:07 am

    To designated safe zones within Gaza for the time.

    whembly (5f7596)

  513. Look, I am sure that Israel, being a Western nation, will conduct itself reasonably. That does not mean that a jihadi who just raped and killed a hostage, or has used women and children as human shields, is going to be allowed to surrender. That does not mean that people living next to Hamas HQ should feel safe from attack, even if they hate Hamas. That does not mean that someone who carries a weapon when the fighting comes their way should expect a great deal of due process.

    But Israel will not fire-bomb Gaza, or go through houses shooting unarmed occupants, or behead women and children. Still, it would behoove anyone to stay out of their way if at all possible.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  514. To designated safe zones within Gaza for the time.

    There are all kinds of reasons for Israel to want to provide refuge for the non-combatants, if only for their own purposes.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  515. AJ_Liberty (909d33) — 10/10/2023 @ 5:43 am

    “Innocents” refers to children, AJ.

    felipe (5e2a04)

  516. It is an elected government.

    Kevin, Gaza hasn’t had an elected government since Hamas forcibly took over in 2007, and it takes nothing away from the fact that Israel has remained an Occupying Power since the 1960s.

    That is not a “collective punishment” but a non-violent military action aimed at reducing the ability of Hamas to continue.

    It’s exactly a “collective punishment” when the occupying power is punishing the entire population for the individual criminal acts of a fraction, as defined.

    I’m not thrilled about playing the institutionalist here, but we do have institutions that have been borne out of devastating experience and, ultimately, we are a nation that was built on rights, due process and the rule of law, and we should expect the same from our allies.

    We’re expecting this conduct from Ukraine, which is in an even more existential fight than Israel, and this is especially important when the country in question is the sole free nation in the Middle East, where its Arab citizens live in more freedom than in any other Muslim-majority nation.

    Israel has the firepower to wipe out Gaza, even without nukes, but they don’t do it they’d be worse monsters than the monsters they’re fighting, and it would certainly backfire on the world stage. I think even Putin gets that. At least, I hope he does.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  517. Paul Montagu (d52d7d) — 10/10/2023 @ 6:15 am

    One has nothing to do with the other, I agree. I don’t see how anyone thinks I was listing reasons for doing so, only reasons for proof of a credible threat. Does anyone dispute that Trump is a credible threat?

    Does recognizing the the existence of fear and loathing for Trump mean anything else other than a recognition of reality? If it does, I suggest that the meaning is a personal inference; an inference not of my making.

    felipe (5e2a04)

  518. Paul Montagu (d52d7d) — 10/10/2023 @ 6:38 am

    Thank you for that link, Paul.

    felipe (5e2a04)

  519. DGAF…I don’t have any sympathies to the regular Gazans:
    https://hotair.com/ed-morrissey/2023/10/10/at-first-we-were-ecstatic-gazas-fafo-moment-and-irans-strategic-miscalculation-n583689
    Surprising coming from the usually even-keel Morrissy:

    The fact that this made Gazans “ecstatic” tells us plenty about not just their culture but also their complete embrace of Hamas as their leadership.

    “I’m talking to some of the soldiers…what they witnessed…babies, their heads cut off…” pic.twitter.com/OzhN9zxaQF

    — Townhall.com (@townhallcom) October 10, 2023

    This is what made Gazans “ecstatic.” Reports and video showing Hamas raping women and killing children didn’t bother them a bit. Only after they considered the potential consequences of the hostaging did their enthusiasm dim somewhat.
    They want Jerusalem back, and Israel pushed back to its 1948 borders — as a start. Their real mission is clear from the Palestinian protest chant From the river to the sea — the eradication of Israel entirely. That very much includes making everyone they see as settlers into legitimate targets of violence, children and babies included. Raping and pillaging are embraced as well by the Gazans.

    Instead, the attacks forced Israel to confront a hard reality: there is no peaceful coexistence with Hamas or any other Iranian proxy on its borders. Having tolerated the missile attacks for eighteen years, Israel had hardened its defenses in the calculation that settling the Gaza question would be far more costly than simply isolating it and controlling its borders to keep arms from getting in. This Hamas attack exposed the folly of that approach, as well as the miscalculation of containment of Iran’s ambition to annihilate Israel.

    They now have no choice but to uproot and destroy Hamas’ footprint in Gaza and ensure it never returns — and that likely means the end of Gaza as a Palestinian settlement. That should please Egypt, even if they won’t admit it, as Hamas was a malevolent branch of the Muslim Brotherhood, the enemy of the al-Sisi regime there. It would remove the Palestinian issue from their border and make it into a West Bank/Jordan problem. Whatever other issues this creates for al-Sisi, removing that headache and putting Israel in control of Gaza may well be worth it.

    Israel didn’t declare war as a rhetorical device, but as a legal step toward total victory over its enemy. The only way to rescue the situation now would be for Gazans to immediately capitulate the territory to Israel and surrender all Hamas terrorists and hostages. That is the only outcome in the war they launched that might keep them in Gaza and under some form of autonomous government. If not, the Gazans had better study the end of World War II and prepare on the basis of what happened to the Germans after the Allies crushed the Nazis.

    This is what happens when you launch wars of annihilation and conquest, especially with this level of barbarity to inspire your enemies and force your allies to back away. You either win it or get crushed. FAFO, indeed.

    whembly (5f7596)

  520. Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/10/2023 @ 8:36 am

    Absolutely correct. And who are those who are doing the fear and loathing, here and abroad? Your guess is as good as anyone’s why Trump engenders these feelings in those who experience them.

    Every one here should know that I am not of that number with respect to Trump, Biden, or any other politician. If Republicans wish to nominate Trump, I’ll add my vote to the tally in the General. I will not vote for Trump in the Primary.

    Don’t nominate Trump.

    felipe (9bcc73)

  521. Somewhere else. It’s not a postage stamp…….

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/10/2023 @ 11:33 am

    When you say “somewhere else” where? If the goal is to destroy Gaza, its citizens have nowhere to go: the border is closed to Egypt, Gaza access to the Med is blockaded by Israel, and of course their other border is with Israel. Relative to 99% of countries, it is a postage stamp.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  522. To designated safe zones within Gaza for the time.

    whembly (5f7596) — 10/10/2023 @ 11:38 am

    Where= are they? There are no designated (by whom?) safe areas in Gaza, especially if the goal is to eradicate Gaza as an entity.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  523. Sam G (8d2ed1) — 10/10/2023 @ 10:30 am

    Forgive us if we have neglected to welcome you to this site, Sam. I welcome you, and I have appreciated your civil comments. You’ll soon see that, for the most part, ideas are criticized rather than persons. Not always, of course – what with free-will and hot tempers.

    felipe (9bcc73)

  524. Trump doesn’t inspire the fear that, for example, North Koreans probably have for their government, or citizens of China, Russia, or Saudi Arabia for theirs.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  525. @524

    Where= are they? There are no designated (by whom?) safe areas in Gaza, especially if the goal is to eradicate Gaza as an entity.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 10/10/2023 @ 12:39 pm

    Via wire, social media and TV.

    Israel is creating a “beach head” for their force.

    So, the do things like “knock bombs” to tell inhabitants that they’re going to bomb a target.

    Israel is going to destroy Hamas and will do whatever they can to mitigate civilian lives.

    whembly (5f7596)

  526. McCarthy reportedly urging House GOP to not nominate him for Speaker.

    Sam G (8d2ed1)

  527. Where= are they? There are no designated (by whom?) safe areas in Gaza, especially if the goal is to eradicate Gaza as an entity.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 10/10/2023 @ 12:39 pm

    Via wire, social media and TV.
    ………
    whembly (5f7596) — 10/10/2023 @ 12:43 pm

    That’s going to be tough since Israel has cutoff electricity to Gaza.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  528. That’s going to be tough since Israel has cutoff electricity to Gaza.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 10/10/2023 @ 12:56 pm
    Hence why they’re doing knock bombs in addition to all that.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roof_knocking

    whembly (5f7596)

  529. Hence why they’re doing knock bombs in addition to all that.

    whembly (5f7596) — 10/10/2023 @ 1:00 pm

    I would be surprised if Israel did that during a war which will be fast and furious. Why give your enemies a heads-up?

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  530. whembly (5f7596) — 10/10/2023 @ 1:00 pm

    That only works when you have specific targets-not when the whole country is a target.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  531. You know what Rip.

    WTAF do you think Israel should do?

    You have habits of criticizing everything, and rarely offer solutions.

    whembly (5f7596)

  532. “Land snatching … land … land … see SNATCH.”

    Israel’s enemies would like nothing better than to have Israel descend to the level of the Arabs in the eyes of the Western world.

    Two things are responsible for the friendship Israel receives from the West:
    1. The Holocaust; and
    2. Its European-American standards of civilization.

    If the Israelis behave as savagely as the Arabs and sink into the cesspool of barbarity which surrounds them, they will lose that friendship.

    nk (0e610b)

  533. @534: See 515.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  534. Also, Blazing Saddles, Harvey Korman to Mel Brooks. Coincidentally, both Jewish. Not sure what to make of that.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  535. WTAF do you think Israel should do?

    You have habits of criticizing everything, and rarely offer solutions.

    whembly (5f7596) — 10/10/2023 @ 1:10 pm

    I don’t have a “solution”, no one does. Nothing that posters here have suggested above are realistic. Israel is not going to level Gaza, fire bomb Gaza City, kill 2.4M people, reoccupy Gaza, “salt the earth,” bomb Iran, or even exterminate Hamas (Hamas is too integrated into Gazan society that you would need to exterminate the population in order to do so.)

    The coming war will be like the 2014 Gaza War, but much longer and more intense.

    Only keyboard commandos have solutions.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  536. Also, Blazing Saddles, Harvey Korman to Mel Brooks. Coincidentally, both Jewish. Not sure what to make of that.

    The trope that it’s a fight over land.

    nk (af3851)

  537. @537

    or even exterminate Hamas (Hamas is too integrated into Gazan society that you would need to exterminate the population in order to do so.)

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 10/10/2023 @ 2:01 pm

    Hamas simply has to be destroyed.

    I doubt that would require a full extermination. (not to mention literally impossible)

    whembly (5f7596)

  538. @538

    Also, Blazing Saddles, Harvey Korman to Mel Brooks. Coincidentally, both Jewish. Not sure what to make of that.

    The trope that it’s a fight over land.

    nk (af3851) — 10/10/2023 @ 2:04 pm

    You’re right, it isn’t over land.

    It’s over whether or not there should be an Israeli state.

    whembly (5f7596)

  539. Hamas simply has to be destroyed.

    I doubt that would require a full extermination. (not to mention literally impossible)

    whembly (5f7596) — 10/10/2023 @ 2:06 pm

    We’ll see if Israel can do it. Also, “full extermination” isn’t “literally impossible“, it’s quite doable.

    An Israeli lawmaker is calling for her nation’s military to use nuclear warfare in response to attacks by Hamas.

    Revital “Tally” Gotliv, an Israeli lawyer and member of the Knesset for the Likud, published multiple posts advocating for a forceful retaliation following a surprise attack on Gaza on Saturday at the hands of the militant Palestinian group designated as a terrorist organization by the United States.
    ……..
    “Jericho Missile! Jericho Missile! Strategic alert. before considering the introduction of forces. Doomsday weapon! This is my opinion. May God preserve all our strength,” Gotliv wrote on X, formerly Twitter, on Monday, according to a translation.

    Another post says: “I urge you to do everything and use Doomsday weapons fearlessly against our enemies,” adding that Israel “must use everything in its arsenal.”

    On Tuesday, she continued with her calls of urgency.

    “Only an explosion that shakes the Middle East will restore this country’s dignity, strength and security!” Gotliv posted. “It’s time to kiss doomsday. Shooting powerful missiles without limit. Not flattening a neighbourhood. Crushing and flattening Gaza. … without mercy! without mercy!”
    ……….
    (Nikolai Sokov, senior fellow at the Vienna Center for Disarmament and Non-Proliferation) added that Gotliv’s calls for escalatory measures is nearsighted for two reasons: one, any potential targets are in the immediate vicinity, hence damage to Israel would be considerable; and two, the military utility of nuclear weapons is often grossly overestimated, especially by those who have limited or no knowledge of nuclear weapons.

    “There are, effectively, no targets for nuclear weapons in this war/conflict,” he said.
    ………….
    In September, she accused the IDF and the Shin Bet (Israel Security Agency) of working for Palestinian “terrorists and security prisoners,” according to The Jerusalem Post. After being condemned by the Israeli government for “infuriating” rhetoric, she doubled down and justified attacks by lawmakers on domestic military personnel.
    ……….

    Source

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  540. whembly (5f7596) — 10/10/2023 @ 2:07 pm

    It’s over whether or not there should be an Israeli state.

    The reason they don’tlikeit is because they have meaningful elections there.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  541. Here is a better link to the Israeli nuclear weapons article.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  542. Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 10/10/2023 @ 2:01 pm

    Nothing that posters here have suggested above are realistic. Israel is not going to level Gaza, fire bomb Gaza City, kill 2.4M people, reoccupy Gaza, “salt the earth,” bomb Iran, or even exterminate Hamas (Hamas is too integrated into Gazan society that you would need to exterminate the population in order to do so.)

    Israel can put Gaza under siege and demand that Hamas evacuate, somewhat similar to hat they did in Beirut in 1982. The problem is the principle that people cannot be deported from their own country, (which was a problem in Beirut as well) but that can be gotten around by making the departure or exile “voluntary” and part of the surrender.

    The coming war will be like the 2014 Gaza War, but much longer and more intense.

    If that happens the next round will have Iran using anuclear weapon, besides the risk of a repeat of the pogrom.

    Only keyboard commandos have solutions.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  543. @541

    We’ll see if Israel can do it. Also, “full extermination” isn’t “literally impossible“, it’s quite doable.
    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 10/10/2023 @ 2:15 pm

    IF they do have nukes, they’re not going to waste it on Gaza. Keeping an ambiguous position is keeping the regional foes in check.

    They don’t need to use it on Gaza.

    It’s going to be ugly and messy, but Israel is more than enough to pacify Gaza and make sure Hamas becomes extinct.

    whembly (5edaac)

  544. The reason they don’tlikeit is because they have meaningful elections there.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 10/10/2023 @ 2:16 pm

    Sounds like Bush’s simplistic explanation of the 9/11 attacks:

    Nine days after Sept. 11, Bush addressed Congress. “They hate our freedoms,” he said, “our freedom of religion, our freedom of speech, our freedom to vote and assemble and disagree with each other.” Yet, in all the tens of thousands of words uttered by bin Laden, he was strangely silent about American freedoms and values. He didn’t seem to care very much about the beliefs of the “crusaders.” His focus was invariably on U.S. foreign policy in the Middle East.

    Source

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  545. The coming war will be like the 2014 Gaza War, but much longer and more intense.

    If that happens the next round will have Iran using anuclear weapon, besides the risk of a repeat of the pogrom.

    I really doubt that Iran would use a nuclear weapon to support Hamas. To do so would risk their complete destruction.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  546. I don’t know that this isn’t exactly what Benjamin Netanyahu intends. In any case, he cannot leave Hamas in power in Gaza.

    I heard on the radio that a successor government has been discussed (in the past.) The plan would be is for a UN transitional government and then turning over power to Mohammed Abbas. But I can’t find any mention of it.

    Not so a great idea, but better than the status quo – unless someone bribes Fatah.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  547. > IF they do have nukes, they’re not going to waste it on Gaza.

    Not only that, but nuking Gaza would be a terrible choice for Israel; it’s too close, the fallout is going to blanket Israel itself.

    aphrael (680200)

  548. Rip Murdock @ 546.

    You don’t expect them to admit they are against democracy and freedom, do you?

    Of course, they are going to complain about other things.

    But look at their allies, and that supplies a motive. And assumes they are cynical and lying about what they do complain about, but that is obvious.

    And that they can’t possibly believe in their ideology. It’s power and maybe glory and money that they want.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  549. That Likud member is hysterical or just trying to look strong. And believes there is a magic bullet.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  550. Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/10/2023 @ 11:43 am

    Still, it would behoove anyone to stay out of their way if at all possible.

    Gaza Civilians tend to underestimate the accuracy of Israeli weapons (good for their safety) but also underestimate the range of destruction.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  551. Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 10/10/2023 @ 10:51 am

    . The fact that the attack was well planned (with the assistance of Iran) says nothing about your charge the Hamas was part of the concert planning. Everyone probably knew about the concert, it was not a secret.

    I only said I suspected that Hamas somehow influenced the plannng of the event. I want to look (or stumble across) for some evidence of that, but have not found it except for the word “peace” mentioned in its connection.

    . I have not found any information about who planned the event.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  552. 512, Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/10/2023 @ 11:30 am

    That is not a “collective punishment” but a non-violent military action aimed at reducing the ability of Hamas to continue.

    And if that’s “collective punishment” then what are most economic sanctions?

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  553. Economic sanctions maybe are not considered punishment because it falls within the general power of governments to regulate trade.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  554. Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 10/10/2023 @ 2:27 pm

    I really doubt that Iran would use a nuclear weapon to support Hamas. To do so would risk their complete destruction

    Iran might bet that it would not. Besides they would use that only after a further escalation – to support Hezbollah.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  555. And if that’s “collective punishment” then what are most economic sanctions?
    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 10/10/2023 @ 2:53 pm

    Yep.

    felipe (5e2a04)

  556. Biden said that at least 13 American citizens had been killed (raised from earlier estimates of 7 or 9) and some taken hostage At least one has been confirmed, and there are many missing people. Fifty known hostages.

    And Joe Biden told the following anecdote:

    https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/speeches-remarks/2023/10/10/remarks-by-president-biden-on-the-terrorist-attacks-in-israel-2

    You know, just over 50 years ago — I was thinking about it this morning, talking with the Secretary of State, the Vice President in my office and — over 50 years ago, as a young senator, I visited Israel for the first time, as a newly elected senator.

    And I had a long, long trip — or meeting with Golda Meir in her office just before the Yom Kippur War. And I guess she could see the consternation on my face as she described what was being faced — they were facing.

    We walked outside in that — that sort of hallway outside her office to have some photos. She looked at me and w- — all of a sudden and said, “Would you like to have a photograph?” And so, I got up and followed her out.

    We were standing there silent, looking at the press. She could tell, I guess, I was concerned. She leaned over and whispered to me — she said, “Don’t worry, Senator Biden. We have a secret weapon here in Israel” — my word this is what she said — “We have no place else to go.” “We have no place else to go.”

    Golda Meir is known to have made that remark – I read about it before – but did she tell it to Joe Biden ??

    Did she say it often? That is the only way that could be true.

    https://www.newsweek.com/biden-golda-meir-meeting-what-we-know-1833638#:~:text=He%20first%20visited%20Israel%20as,on%20his%20face%2C%20he%20said.

    Biden has told the story several times throughout his political career, including during a speech in 1992.

    “She said, ‘Son you look depressed.’ I said, ‘Madame prime minister, I am depressed. You just spent the last hour telling me, in effect, you have no chance.’ She said, ‘One thing I didn’t tell you, you should know, we Jews have a secret weapon in our battle, or dispute, with the Arabs. We have no place else to go,'” Biden said.

    He has described the meeting as “one of the most consequential meetings” he ever had. He told the same story in a 2022 speech at Ben Gurion Airport in Tel Aviv in July 2022.

    I heard that Golda Meir quote before but not in connection with Joe Biden.

    It’s given here, but with no source: (but web page dates to 2016)

    https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/golda-meir-quotes-on-israel-and-judaism

    Here too. but no source

    https://quotefancy.com/quote/819218/Golda-Meir-We-Jews-have-a-secret-weapon-in-our-struggle-with-the-Arabs-we-have-no-place

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  557. Hamas Militants Behind Israel Attack Raised Millions in Crypto

    ……..
    During the year leading up to the attacks, three militant groups—Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad and their Lebanese ally Hezbollah—received large amounts of funds through crypto, according to a review of Israeli government seizure orders and blockchain analytics reports.

    Digital-currency wallets that Israeli authorities linked to the PIJ received as much as $93 million in crypto between August 2021 and June this year, analysis by leading crypto researcher Elliptic showed.

    Wallets connected to Hamas received about $41 million over a similar time period, according to research by another crypto analytics and software firm, Tel Aviv-based BitOK.
    ……….
    All three militant groups have been designated foreign terrorist organizations by the U.S. government and are subject to sanctions by the Treasury Department, limiting their access to the international banking system. Anyone found transacting with those entities risk criminal prosecution and being targeted with sanctions themselves.
    ……….
    In an order the following month against the PIJ wallets, Israel’s National Bureau for Counter-Terror Financing also requested the seizure of any crypto held on 67 client accounts at Binance, the world’s largest crypto exchange. Earlier orders this year by the bureau against Hamas and Hezbollah also sought to confiscate funds at Binance. The U.S. Justice Department has been conducting a broad investigation into the company’s anti-money-laundering controls, the Journal has reported.
    ………
    Researchers who study Hamas’s financing said crypto remains one of a number of tools the group uses to raise funds, including bringing cash into Gaza from Egypt. The U.S. says Iran has long been the groups’ primary benefactor, putting regular funding from Tehran at roughly $100 million a year.
    ……..
    Hamas has publicly sought to raise funds in crypto since at least 2019, when the al-Qassam Brigades began asking supporters on its Telegram channel to donate bitcoin. “The reality of jihad is the expenditure of effort and energy, and money is the backbone of war,” the group wrote in a post, attaching a wallet address that received about $30,000 in bitcoin that year.

    The group is one of the most sophisticated crypto users in the terror-finance domain, according to Ari Redbord, a former senior Treasury official who is now head of global policy at TRM Labs, a blockchain-intelligence company which tracks the group.

    Hamas stopped publishing its donation addresses to protect donors’ anonymity after Israeli and U.S. investigators tracked the transactions on the blockchain—the public ledgers that collate data on all digital currency transactions.
    ………..
    The al-Qassam Brigades said this April that they would stop receiving donations via bitcoin and told supporters to contribute in other ways. This was “out of concern for the safety of donors,” the group said on Telegram, citing a “doubling of hostile efforts against everyone who tries to support the resistance through this currency.”
    ……….

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  558. Bo original source here but slightly different version

    https://www.msudenver.edu/golda-meir-center/golda-meir/quotes

    15) As to Israel’s military successes, she responded: Our secret weapon: No alternative. She would also often use the statement: We have no alternative.

    Here also:

    https://libquotes.com/golda-meir/quote/lbc0m3h

    We have always said that in our war with the Arabs we had a secret weapon — no alternative. The Egyptians could run to Egypt, the Syrians into Syria. The only place we could run was into the sea, and before we did that we might as well fight.

    Golda Meir

    Joe Biden has her saying that specially to him,(because he looked depressed) and before the Yom Kippur war.

    Joe Biden:

    I guess she could see the consternation on my face as she described what was being faced — they were facing.

    But the Yom Kippur war took everyone by surprise!

    Golda Meir wouldn’t have described Israel as facing a bad situation in September, 1973.

    Biden said this in 2015:

    https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/biden-told-us-jews-that-israel-not-america-guaranteed-their-security-395686

    The surprising remarks, which were made during a Rosh Hashana celebration attended by government officials and members of Congress, were reported by Atlantic journalist Jeffrey Goldberg in a recent article about the future of European Jewry.
    “I had the great pleasure of knowing every prime minister since Golda Meir, when I was a young man in the Senate, and I’ll never forget talking to her in her office with her assistant – a guy named Rabin – about the Six-Day War,” he said. “The end of the meeting, we get up and walk out, the doors are open, and … the press is taking photos … She looked straight ahead and said, ‘Senator, don’t look so sad … Don’t worry. We Jews have a secret weapon.’ ”

    Then Biden recalled asking Meir what the secret weapon was.
    “I thought she was going to tell me something about a nuclear program,” Biden said. “She looked straight ahead and she said, ‘We have no place else to go. We have no place else to go.’ ”

    Sammy Finkelman (c5132f)

  559. https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4898776/biden-golda-meir-story-1992

    He has her smoking and says that she said it to a lot of other people including Senator Gramm, although he thought she said it only to him at the time..

    She would have been arguing for U.S. aid, if true.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  560. The administration seem to be moving forward with the Iran deal. You would think they’d re-freeze that $6 billion, but they can’t quite bring themselves to do that.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  561. Revital “Tally” Gotliv,

    Nuttier than MTG

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  562. I really doubt that Iran would use a nuclear weapon to support Hamas. To do so would risk their complete destruction.

    While I agree with this, I’ll point out that it would not take many nukes to utterly destroy Israel. Perhaps as few as 3 modest bombs.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  563. And if that’s “collective punishment” then what are most economic sanctions?

    Historically “collective punishment” is rounding up hostages to shoot in case of enemy action. One side IS doing this, but it’s not Israel.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  564. @544 Sammy This key board commando does have a solution that would work! I have said it here for years. Pay egypt $$$$$$$$$ dollars to take gaza over and police it with their military. They say no so we have to make them an offer both carrot and stick they can’t refuse. I wait to read why this wouldn’t work. Egyptian army wont be nice to hamas either!

    asset (124369)

  565. The US still follows the rules of war when it comes to al Qaeda and the Islamic State, and Hamas is similarly outlaw as them. We’re still obligated to minimize civilian casualties (no matter how unlikable those civilians are), and to we’re treat detainees humanely until they’re adjudicated or released, even though those terrorist groups have no intention to abide by international law.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d) — 10/10/2023 @ 10:47 am

    This. Israel should and hopefully will eradicate Hamas. That will unavoidably mean the death of civilians. But how many, which ones, and who is responsible for those deaths is up to Israel. If Israel takes reasonable precautions to avoid civilian casualties, the deaths will be on Hamas, both morally and legally, for attacking Israel and for embedding itself in a human shield of civilians. But if Israel kills civilians indiscriminately, as some here seem to think it should, Israel will be morally and legally culpable. It’s a pretty simple line conceptually, but hard to navigate in practice. And it’s inevitable that anti-Israel NGOs, e.g., the UN, Human Rights Watch, will blame Israel for the civilian deaths, regardless of the diligence of its efforts to avoid them.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  566. Two things are responsible for the friendship Israel receives from the West:
    1. The Holocaust; and
    2. Its European-American standards of civilization.

    If the Israelis behave as savagely as the Arabs and sink into the cesspool of barbarity which surrounds them, they will lose that friendship.

    nk (0e610b) — 10/10/2023 @ 1:36 pm

    Also very much this. The problem, again, is how to fairly assess Israel’s behavior when the international arbiters of such things, e.g., the UN, Human Rights Watch, will have decided Israel is committing war crimes before it fires a single shot.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  567. Hamas simply has to be destroyed.

    How do you tell the difference between a member of Hamas and an ordinary Palestinian schlub?

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  568. Hundreds of jewish children have been killed. At least 40 babies murdered some beheaded at a kibbutz. Over 300 palestinian children have been killed so far to be joined by thousands more who will be killed or starved to death. The evil of hamas vs corrupt evil netanhayu. Its like when hitler attacked stalin you don’t know who to boo for! In America the left and the right choosing up sides.

    asset (124369)

  569. Black Lives Matter Chicago cheers the murder of Israeli civilians, many of whom, by the way, happen to be black.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  570. RIP Kevin Phillips (82).

    ……….
    Mr. Phillips was in his late 20s when he published his first book, “The Emerging Republican Majority” (1969), which, refining earlier studies he had done, predicted a rightward realignment in national politics driven by ethnic and racial divisions and white discontent.
    ………
    “The whole secret of politics,” he told the journalist Garry Wills during the 1968 presidential campaign, “is knowing who hates who.”
    ………

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  571. The US still follows the rules of war when it comes to al Qaeda and the Islamic State, and Hamas is similarly outlaw as them.

    This is untrue. Hamas is the elected government of a subdivision of an internationally recognized state, while al Qaeda is just a bunch of thugs. The US has no international requirements with regard to al Qaeda (and the Geneva Accords are quite vague about guerilla groups) although our courts have imposed some rules.

    W’s original attitude towards illegal combatants was just fine under international rules, but the US courts dialed it back some. That’s the fault of US courts and in any event do not apply to Israel.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  572. That Hamas, operating under a signatory to the Geneva Accords, violates them as a rule means that those they engage with have no obligations to observe the accords wither. No quarter means no quarter.

    As I indicated earlier, see Sundance on knife fights.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  573. How do you tell the difference between a member of Hamas and an ordinary Palestinian schlub?

    Hamas is well fed.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  574. The problem, again, is how to fairly assess Israel’s behavior when the international arbiters of such things, e.g., the UN, Human Rights Watch, will have decided Israel is committing war crimes before it fires a single shot.

    Not to mention some armchair judges here.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  575. Or armchair constitutional experts.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  576. >How do you tell the difference between a member of Hamas and an ordinary Palestinian schlub?

    Therein lies the conundrum.

    aphrael (6ef592)

  577. felipe (5e2a04) — 10/10/2023 @ 12:07 pm

    You’re welcome, regarding the link to Ms. Hayat, felipe.

    Regarding Trump, I continue to be mystified as to what your stance is toward him, and I don’t want to replay our prior disagreement on the subject.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  578. Netanyahu has been through scandal and such, but it was his government that ignored multiple warnings from the Egyptians. Maybe he won’t get booted while they’re in the middle of this war, but I think he’s on borrowed time.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  579. @580 netanyahu sent most of israel’s army to west settlements he is building to protect his settler voters. Notice how faux news doesn’t ask where was the army? The answer would embarrass likud party.

    asset (12b51a)

  580. I very much doubt that the Israelis will use, or need, nukes in Gaza. The problems there can be dealt with through conventional forces, particularly ground troops. Sorting out Hamas members isn’t easy, but without boots on the ground all you have is mass destruction.

    However.

    Should Hezbollah start firing their 100,000+ rockets into Tel Aviv — with a cumulative equivalence to a nuclear weapon, Israel will move the smash that flat in a hurry. Not sure they’ll have a lot of options.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  581. Right wing media says its all joe biden’s fault! All 6 billion was used by hamas! Except it hasn’t been unfrozen yet. Most young people are pro palestinian thanks to netanyahu and likud party. Supporters of Israel need to curb right media like mark levin and faux noise as they create enemies for Israel among younger americans with their name calling. Harassing the squad for asking for peace is counterproductive as they will find out.

    asset (12b51a)

  582. Israel can certainly kill a lot of people, break a lot of things, and displace a lot of civilians. Then what? Someone will need to govern and police the place. Why not jump to the inevitable: a multinational force needs to insert itself to root out Hamas and assume control of Gaza. It can provide the buffer with Israel, guarantee humanitarian relief, and continue to drive Hamas hanger-ons into the holes they deserve.

    As dysfunctional and littered with anti-semitism as the UN is, it can avoid the legitimacy problem that Israel will face…along with the proportionality and escalation critiques. The arab world…with eyes to Jordan and Egypt…must take the lead in managing Gaza. There’s no perfect solution but coexistence with a security buffer might be the best to be hoped for.

    AJ_Liberty (58f9ec)

  583. https://www.foxnews.com/media/protesters-face-off-near-harvard-man-calls-pro-israel-demonstrators-nazis-pigs

    Pro-Palestinian protests took place in several U.S. major cities following Hamas’ deadly attack over the weekend, which included kidnapping children and families. Rockets continue to be fired from Gaza, and Israeli Defense Forces are striking Hamas targets with warplanes. More than 1,600 people have been killed in the war, including around 1,000 people in Israel.

    The event — attended by hundreds — was advertised through a flyer containing the text “LONG LIVE PALESTINIAN RESISTANCE” and “VICTORY IS OURS.”

    Why are these people here?

    I went to the “Palestinian Resistance” protest near Harvard today. Here is what you need to know.

    1. The flyer declared “victory is ours.”
    2. Chants called for the destruction of Israel
    3. Protestors called the Israeli’s across the street “nazis”
    4. Hundreds of people showed up
    5. Things got intense with the Israeli side.
    6. Police did a great job at keeping the two groups separate.
    7. Many chants accusing Israel of white supremacy

    Reporting coming on Fox News.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  584. As the world is condemning Hamas’s attacks, we must also oppose an Israeli military response that has already taken the lives of hundreds of Palestinians, including nearly two dozen children.

    — Ilhan Omar (@IlhanMN) October 9, 2023

    The Israeli Defense Minister has called Palestinians ‘human animals’ and promised to cut off all electricity, all food, and all fuel to civilians in Gaza.

    — Ilhan Omar (@IlhanMN) October 9, 2023

    This is collective punishment, a war crime, and the U.S. should oppose any violations of international law if we truly support a rules-based international order.

    — Ilhan Omar (@IlhanMN) October 9, 2023

    And that targeting an entire civilian population will only sow more discord and perpetuate the cycle of violence.

    — Ilhan Omar (@IlhanMN) October 9, 2023

    Boy who does this sound like?

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  585. NJRob (eb56c3) — 10/11/2023 @ 5:26 am

    This is exactly the brainless mentality of the intolerant hard right, that if someone on the Left says something, it is implicitly false and wrong, and it’s a reason why so many on the Right support Putin and oppose Biden when it comes to helping Ukraine defend itself. Such stupidity renders the the hardline extremist unwilling or unable to assess each comment on its merits.

    Ms. Omar is badly wrong, horribly wrong, that we “oppose an Israeli military response”. Hamas needs to be destroyed, and it’ll take a full military ground invasion to make it happen.

    Ms. Omar is not wrong about collective punishment and about the mass-murdering of civilians.

    Ms. Omar is wrong about this “cycle of violence” nonsense, because one side has been the aggressor against Israel since its founding. If one side stops fighting, then there’s peace.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  586. AJ_Liberty (58f9ec) — 10/11/2023 @ 4:30 am

    Why not jump to the inevitable: a multinational force needs to insert itself to root out Hamas and assume control of Gaza.

    Remember the peacekeeping force that was in Beirut, Lebanon in 1983?

    Reagan was aware of a danger and made plans to protect it, but they were done on a too long time scale – before they were implemented, a truck bombbomb was driven into the Marine Corps barracks, and Reagan abandoned the mission, (and in Benghazi in 2012 the United States allowed itself to be driven out. There was a CIA station there – the US stupidly thought was secret and Obama ordered it evacuated after it came under attack. The CIA station there was buying up stored Libyan weapons to prevent them from being given by Turkey to Islamist forces in Syria. That mission actually did succeed – the ship carrying weapons the US did not succeed in buying up sailed, but Turkey listened to the warning by Christopher Stevens, the US Ambassador to Libya and the weapons stayed in Turkey.)

    That peacekeeping force had better be prepared to take massive casualties, and not leave, or the arrangements would need to be much better thought out.

    Sammy Finkelman (e5027c)

  587. The arab world…with eyes to Jordan and Egypt…must take the lead in managing Gaza. There’s no perfect solution but coexistence with a security buffer might be the best to be hoped for

    The real problem for the Gazans is that Israeli sovereignty over Gaza is probably better than almost any other alternative, but Israel isn’t keen on that idea for a number of reasons. Multinational forces are like committees, they spend all their time redeciding past decisions and cannot act with any unanimity. See Sebrenica.

    Technically, they are part of the Palestinian entity, but that allowed them to be ruled by Hamas (instead of Fatah) and neither choice was particularly satisfying. The real solution is a single democratic state of Israel in the former Palestine, but that would make a 50-50 population split between groups (with the Arab birth rate twice as high) and the current Israelis want nothing to do with that. For good reason as we have seen this week.

    There are Israelis who favor the alternative (ethnic cleansing) and they are probably finding their voice again now.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  588. Fix tags:

    The arab world…with eyes to Jordan and Egypt…must take the lead in managing Gaza. There’s no perfect solution but coexistence with a security buffer might be the best to be hoped for

    The real problem for the Gazans is that Israeli sovereignty over Gaza is probably better than almost any other alternative, but Israel isn’t keen on that idea for a number of reasons. Multinational forces are like committees, they spend all their time redeciding past decisions and cannot act with any unanimity. See Sebrenica.

    Technically, they are part of the Palestinian entity, but that allowed them to be ruled by Hamas (instead of Fatah) and neither choice was particularly satisfying. The real solution is a single democratic state of Israel in the former Palestine, but that would make a 50-50 population split between groups (with the Arab birth rate twice as high) and the current Israelis want nothing to do with that. For good reason as we have seen this week.

    There are Israelis who favor the alternative (ethnic cleansing) and they are probably finding their voice again now.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  589. Rather than a multinational force (and, really, why multinational?), sovereignty by a responsible Arab state might be workable. Not Egypt, as it would given them a strategic advantage in any conflict, but maybe the Saudis — the area is Sunni, not Shi’ite. Saudi is unlikely to allow something like Hamas to build, and has the money to turn Gaza into something livable. It could be part of the now-delayed peace deal with Israel.

    Of course, the Israeli settling on the West Bank remains a huge issue and would prevent any external presence there. I don’t see a solution there as long as most of those settlements remain. But maybe that’s for another day.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  590. This is favorable news, the rejection by House members of Trump’s endorsement of Jordan, if Newsmax’s reporting is true.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  591. FoxNews is saying Scalise is “House Speaker nominee”.
    Finally, the GOP has done something sensible. Perhaps things like a mass terror attack by militant Islamists clarify the mind.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  592. “why multinational?”

    Because the costs will be high, especially initially with rooting Hamas out and later absorbing the death throes of inevitable suicide bombers. If Saudi Arabia hasn’t offered its assistance over the past 70 years, why would they suddenly become magnanimous now?

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  593. If Saudi Arabia hasn’t offered its assistance over the past 70 years, why would they suddenly become magnanimous now?

    Because MBS has ambitions. He needs to access the economy of Israel, but he cannot be seen as abandoning the Palestinians. This is a two-fer.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  594. More to the point, the PLO and Fatah — once named the only legitimate voice of the Palestinians — have been marginalized and now undermined by Hamas. This is a time to replace them, at least in Gaza. The Saudis are not the nicest people in the world, but they aren’t psychopaths either. They are the only player that could be acceptable to all concerned.

    Multinational forces (and the UN) are historically worthless.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  595. Judging by all reports, Hamas sent about 2000 psychopathic “active shooters” into Israel, most of whom killed until they were put down. Wherever you live, think about 2000 active shooters suddenly popping up in your county of residence. What would you expect your reaction would be, even after they were all stopped?

    Alternatively, consider the same proportion of Americans killed in such an assault — about 50,000, and that there was a clear source of the attack. What Israel is doing will be mild in comparison to what our response would be.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  596. FoxNews is saying Scalise is “House Speaker nominee”.

    Finally, the GOP has done something sensible. ……

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d) — 10/11/2023 @ 10:19 am

    He “won” 113-99. Still well short of majority needed (217).

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  597. House was gaveled in to session for 2.5 minutes, then back out. Don’t expect a vote today.

    Sam G (8d2ed1)

  598. Hope Scalise gets the gavel. A target of left wing domestic terrorism as House speaker would be fitting.

    lloyd (3dfb84)

  599. @601

    Hope Scalise gets the gavel. A target of left wing domestic terrorism as House speaker would be fitting.

    lloyd (3dfb84) — 10/11/2023 @ 1:00 pm

    Right?!?

    Makes it harder for them to defend bad rhetoric from the left.

    whembly (5f7596)

  600. Scalise is still 104 votes short of a majority. Of the 221 Republicans, nine didn’t vote for either candidate.

    In order to be speaker, he will at least five of them plus the 99 that voted for Jordan. A tall order.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  601. He “won” 113-99. Still well short of majority needed (217)

    Well, Jordan is still shorter and so Scalise’s name goes to the floor. That’s how a caucus works. It’s also supposed to be the unit-rule marching order, assuming you have an actual Party.

    I still say to kick out the HFC members entirely and attempt to govern as a minority party.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  602. Prediction: If they try to do to Scalise what they did to McCarthy it won’t work and there will be retribution after.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  603. What would Joseph Cannon do? Or Sam Rayburn?

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  604. Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/11/2023 @ 11:13 am

    Judging by all reports, Hamas sent about 2000 psychopathic “active shooters” into Israel, most of whom killed until they were put down. Wherever you live, think about 2000 active shooters suddenly popping up in your county of residence. What would you expect your reaction would be, even after they were all stopped?

    They were not all sent at the same time. Israeli newspapers reported that more were sent (or went back) Sunday night, but the Israeli army was ready for them by that time.

    Alternatively, consider the same proportion of Americans killed in such an assault — about 50,000, and that there was a clear source of the attack. What Israel is doing will be mild in comparison to what our response would be.

    Most victims of 9/11werefrom the New York metropolitan area -population of around 25 million. But on the other hand Israelis murdered were heavily concentrated about those living in Sderot and other places near Gaza. Some communities lost 10% of their population. Maybe more.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  605. 597. Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/11/2023 @ 11:02 am

    the PLO and Fatah — once named the only legitimate voice of the Palestinians

    Legitimate representative. At the Arab summit in Rabat, Morocco in November, 1974,which also created the Palestinian people. (previously there had been only Palestinian refugees) At that summit, King Hussein of Jordan agreed to give up responsibility for the Wes Bank. Yasir Arafat was declared their leader without somehow also being named king, kings having gone out of fashion in most of te world after the French Revolution.

    The crazy thing was that. in 1993, Israel accepted that designation and negotiated with Yasir Arafat and brought him back from exile in Tunis. Instead of promoting local leaders and democracy.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  606. Yesterday President Biden gave the number of dead American citizens as 14, an update from the previously reported 7 or 9. Today it was 22,with 20 missing, They are likely mostly dead. I think one American citizen is believed to have been alive in Gaza -altogether maybe 50 of a little more than 100 whom Hamas claimed to hold.(with 1800 plus murdered)

    President Biden asked Israel not to attempt a rescue operation (and indeed the situation is not like Entebbe in 1976, where Netanyahu’s older brother Yoni lost his life. Biden sent people with training in rescue operations to consult.

    Eight people with French citizenship were reported dead.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  607. The very first thing Hamas disabled on Saturday were the cameras.

    Israel used to have drones that flew over the Gaza border for 24 hours a day but they had diminished that. These drones need gasoline, and they were trying to cut the budget.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  608. One blogger’s report:

    https://libibamizrach.blogspot.com

    Sammy Finkelman (c5132f)

  609. He “won” 113-99. Still well short of majority needed (217)

    Well, Jordan is still shorter and so Scalise’s name goes to the floor. That’s how a caucus works. It’s also supposed to be the unit-rule marching order, assuming you have an actual Party.

    I still say to kick out the HFC members entirely and attempt to govern as a minority party.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/11/2023 @ 2:02 pm

    Prediction: If they try to do to Scalise what they did to McCarthy it won’t work and there will be retribution after.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/11/2023 @ 2:04 pm

    Re: Kicking out the HFC: LOL!

    Gaetz has said he will vote for Scalise, but MTG says she will vote against him because of his cancer diagnosis; and Chip Roy and Michael Cloud of Texas who backed Jordan are still no.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  610. Bit of a non-sequitur:

    I am leery of the efforts to use the 14th amendment to disqualify Trump from running, but this response from the Trump team is…something…

    “The Presidential oath, which the framers of the Fourteenth Amendment surely knew, requires the President to swear to ‘preserve, protect and defend’ the Constitution — not to ‘support’ the Constitution,” said the filing by Trump’s attorneys. “Because the framers chose to define the group of people subject to Section Three by an oath to ‘support’ the Constitution of the United States, and not by an oath to ‘preserve, protect and defend’ the Constitution, the framers of the Fourteenth Amendment never intended for it to apply to the President.”

    Sam G (8d2ed1)

  611. US Senators have very little influence on quality of life issues in their state. State and local governments are more likely to have an impact on those issues.

    US Senators generally approve all federal appointments within their state and the Senate rarely confirms those they would block. The federal courts and agencies have a great deal of influence in a state.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/10/2023 @ 8:58 am

    A tenuous connection at best. US Senators have no influence on local zoning, state and local taxes, housing policies, traffic congestion, local school boards, business permitting, crime, public transportation, public works (except when they bring in federal funding), emergency medical services, building and safety enforcement, etc. all of which affect the quality of life.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  612. Instead of promoting local leaders and democracy.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 10/11/2023 @ 2:29 pm

    LOL!

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  613. At least four Republicans have declared they will not vote for Steve Scalise: MTG, Chip Roy, Michael Cloud and Max Miller. Nancy Mace and Bob Good have said they are undecided.

    Comedy Gold!

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  614. I doubt the UN wants the job of rooting out Hamas and governing Gaza any more than Israel or Hamas wants them to take it. Among other things, outside the US and its allies, most of the world, including Russia and China, both permanent Security Council members, consider Israel, not Hamas, the problem.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  615. Israel will need to directly govern Gaza for the foreseeable future if only not to allow Hamas to return to power.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  616. lurker (cd7cd4) — 10/11/2023 @ 4:05 pm

    I agree, lurker.

    felipe (9bcc73)

  617. (except when they bring in federal funding)

    The bulk of all new dollars. Just think how California could have improved roads and light rail in Los Angeles for the money thrown away on the Moonbeam Express.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  618. It was a federal judge that ruined, um, redesigned, the Century Freeway. Can anyone tell me how many ramps there are at the Century-Harbor interchange? I think there are 20, but I’ve heard numbers between 18 and 21.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  619. Israel will need to directly govern Gaza for the foreseeable future if only not to allow Hamas to return to power.

    I’d rather see Saudi do it, as they have rather fewer scruples dealing with folks like Hamas. Their need for commerce, and an ally against Iran, would keep them honest.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  620. The bulk of all new dollars. Just think how California could have improved roads and light rail in Los Angeles for the money thrown away on the Moonbeam Express.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/11/2023 @ 6:04 pm

    You won’t get any argument from me. The voters are the ones to blame.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  621. I’d rather see Saudi do it, as they have rather fewer scruples dealing with folks like Hamas. Their need for commerce, and an ally against Iran, would keep them honest.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/11/2023 @ 6:08 pm

    Given that Saudi Arabia has blamed Israel for the Hamas assault, why would that be good choice?

    “The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia is closely following the developments of the unprecedented situation between a number of Palestinian factions and the Israeli occupation forces, which has resulted in a high level of violence on several fronts there,” the country’s Foreign Ministry said in a statement.

    “The Kingdom recalls its repeated warnings of the dangers of the explosion of the situation as a result of the continued occupation, and deprivation of the Palestinian people of their legitimate rights, and the repetition of systematic provocations against its sanctities,” the statement continues.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  622. Israel shouldn’t farm out its security to the UN or other foreign forces. It is a recipe for disaster.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  623. I did not expect Jordan not to be Speaker by now. I am pleasantly surprised. I guess that even self-seeking crapweasels can finally realize, like McCarthy did, that when you play with Trump he is the cat and you are the mouse.

    nk (42c90e)

  624. At the expense of repeating myself (which I really don’t like to do), Trump is a sick f-ck.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  625. @627:

    “Trump is assh0le” is roughly the same as “dog bites man.”

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  626. Israel shouldn’t farm out its security to the UN or other foreign forces. It is a recipe for disaster.

    Israel didn’t want to stay in Gaza, so it farmed out its security to Hamas, and allowed them to get money from everyone. After this effort they will leave again.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  627. This is the guy whose immediate reaction to 9/11 was to brag — falsely of course — that he now had the tallest building in south Manhattan. Whenever you think you’ve seen his bottom, smack yourself. He can go lower. Sick fvck indeed.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  628. “Israel shouldn’t farm out its security to the UN or other foreign forces.”

    Gaza is a sewer inundated with rats. There has to be a long-term plan that changes the repeating dynamic. If you believe that Israel should return to governing Hamas, how do you see that playing out? The Arab community has to be made to step up. Enough rhetorical puffery. There needs to be a sustainable solution. This is one more opportunity for big-stick diplomacy.

    AJ_Liberty (6a8e67)

  629. At the expense of repeating myself (which I really don’t like to do), Trump is a sick f-ck.

    It cannot be said often enough.

    In this particular instance, Cadet “Vaginas Are Landmines” Bonespurs wants to remind us of how brave and tough he was to have somebody in the military or the CIA fire a Hellfire missile from a drone at a foreign airport.

    nk (24e06c)

  630. It should concern perspective GOP voters to have Trump coordinating foreign policy. Hoping someone “checks” him is a sad plan.

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  631. @633

    It should concern perspective GOP voters to have Trump coordinating foreign policy. Hoping someone “checks” him is a sad plan.

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3) — 10/12/2023 @ 6:43 am

    I have a solution.

    Nominate Ron DeSantis.

    Or, frankly, just about any other GOP candidate.

    whembly (5f7596)

  632. @632:

    Sometimes I forget he was a draft dodger, too. He has so many negatives it’s hard to keep track.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  633. It should concern perspective GOP voters to have Trump coordinating foreign policy.

    To rank the people @390:

    9. Kamala Harris (actually worse than Trump)
    8. Donald Trump
    7. Vivek Ramswamy
    6. Joe Biden
    5. Tim Scott
    4. Ron DeSantis
    3. Mike Pence
    2. Chris Christie
    1. Nikki Haley

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  634. @636, based on his previous history, I remain anxious with Biden running the show. However, he’s done better than expected on Ukraine….and he’s struck the right tone with Israel now. Iran….no. China? Maybe too much baggage, but nothing horrible yet. Afghanistan, disastrous but people have moved on. Global warming? He’s left of me. Immigration? Uninspired. Still, DeSantis? Weak on Ukraine…maybe too aggressive with Mexico. I worry that he’s not guided by wisdom.

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  635. AJ, I’d feel a little better about Biden if he re-froze the $6 billion.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  636. Paul Montagu (d52d7d) — 10/11/2023 @ 9:00 pm

    Donald Trump Criticizes Israel PM Benjamin Netanyahu, Calls Hezbollah ‘Very Smart’

    ………Earlier in his speech, Trump complimented the Iran-aligned Hezbollah, which on Sunday attacked Israeli positions from the north in what it described as solidarity with the “Palestinian resistance.”

    Trump suggested the group got the idea after a U.S. official expressed fears that Hamas could open a second front, and said Israel now had to up its intelligence gathering.

    “You know, Hezbollah is very smart,” Trump said. “They’re all very smart.”

    “The press doesn’t like when they say it,” he added.
    ……….

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  637. Israel didn’t want to stay in Gaza, so it farmed out its security to Hamas, and allowed them to get money from everyone. After this effort they will leave again.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/11/2023 @ 10:04 pm

    And in about 20 years Israel will be back to attack whatever group replaces Hamas.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  638. Nominate Ron DeSantis.

    Or, frankly, just about any other GOP candidate.

    LOL!

    Republican Presidential RCP Polling Average

    DeSantis-Trump +45

    Haley +50

    Ramaswamy +51

    Pence +54

    and so on.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  639. I’d rather see Saudi do it (provide security in Gaza), as they have rather fewer scruples dealing with folks like Hamas. Their need for commerce, and an ally against Iran, would keep them honest.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/11/2023 @ 6:08 pm

    I don’t think so…….

    Leaders of Iran and Saudi Arabia hold first-ever phone call, pledging united support for Palestinians

    Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman and Iranian President Ebrahim Raisi talked on the phone for the first time ever, pledging united support for the Palestinian cause.

    The conversation lasted for roughly 45 minutes, according to SAMAA (a Pakistani news channel), and it focused on the war in Gaza. Iranian state media reported that the two affirmed the “need to end war crimes against Palestine,” according to Reuters. The Saudi Press Agency reported that Salman affirmed his support for the Palestinian cause and urged against the targeting of civilians.

    “He also stressed – may God protect him – the Kingdom’s firm position towards supporting the Palestinian cause and supporting efforts aimed at achieving a comprehensive and just peace that guarantees the Palestinian people’s access to their legitimate rights,” the Saudi Press Agency said in a statement.

    The two sides also committed to supporting military de-escalation. Sentiment about the need to end the targeting of civilians appeared to be focused against Israel…….

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  640. @641 Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 10/12/2023 @ 8:59 am
    This doomerism is getting old Rip.

    If you have any interest of Trump NOT getting the GOP nomination, you’d get better engagement in collaborating with your peers on HOW to push a not-Trump across the finish line.

    Otherwise, you come off as a jerk when LOL! poop-n-swoop posts.

    whembly (5f7596)

  641. This doomerism is getting old Rip.

    It’s not doomerism, it is the current polling reality. Feel free to make up your own numbers.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  642. Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 10/11/2023 @ 3:21 pm They got along with local mayors before 1993.

    Israel cannot make peace with evildoers and that includes Saudi Arabia
    under its current government. Others maybe can, but not Israel.

    Israel should not legitimize evildoers, as Netanyahu was ready to do with Saudi Arabia.

    Sammy Finkelman (828d12)

  643. @644

    It’s not doomerism, it is the current polling reality. Feel free to make up your own numbers.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 10/12/2023 @ 9:40 am

    If polling is reality, Rip, we’d be in the 2nd Hillary Clinton term.

    whembly (5f7596)

  644. @646 the polling in 2016 was accurate – it’s just that polling doesn’t account for the Electoral College.

    Sam G (8d2ed1)

  645. @638 WaPo is reporting that the $6bil has been re-frozen.

    Sam G (8d2ed1)

  646. If polling is reality, Rip, we’d be in the 2nd Hillary Clinton term.

    Yes, polls change, whembly, but they haven’t changed for Trump, despite 4 indictments and 91 felony counts, despite being an adjudicated fraudster and liar and sexual abuser, despite his praise for terrorists like Putin and Hezbollah, despite his frequent bouts of malignant narcissism and general stupidity.

    If there’s a line where the majority of my party says “f-ck it, I can’t back him anymore”, I haven’t seen it, and I have no idea what additional transgressions he’ll have to commit to change that support, so count me as pessimistic that DeSantis or Haley have a path to the nomination. If you want to call that “doomerism”, fine.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  647. @638 WaPo is reporting that the $6bil has been re-frozen.

    Sam G (8d2ed1) — 10/12/2023 @ 10:37 am

    Will the American hostages be returned?

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  648. 🚨 #BREAKING: Steve Scalise will NOT be able to secure the 217 votes necessary to become Speaker, and is expected to WITHDRAW from the race today@RepThomasMassie (R-KY) says at least 20 Republicans will not be voting for Scalise

    Jim Jordan is expected to jump back into the… pic.twitter.com/f9lBYaWFoZ

    — Nick Sortor (@nicksortor) October 12, 2023

    But Jordan doesn’t have the votes either…

    What a cluster…

    whembly (5f7596)

  649. The only thing we know is that it will be difficult, so I defer to this: https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/11/politics/american-hostages-israel-gaza-hamas/index.html

    Sam G (8d2ed1)

  650. Republican Sen. Tuberville Warns Against ‘Picking Sides in the Middle East’ in Jaw-Dropping Interview

    Senator Tommy Tuberville (R-AL) is under fire for telling an interviewer that “when you start picking sides in the Middle East, it can get really messy very quick” amid the violence in Israel spurred by Hamas.
    ……….

    I’m hoping that cooler heads prevail, they don’t go into Palestine [pronounces it “Pal-uh-STEEN”]. Hopefully they get the hostages back and people start cooperating.

    But this has been really bad. Israel has the right to go because they they came in and they did some terrible things in their country.

    But the problem is when you start picking sides in the Middle East, it could get really messy very quick.

    The remarks were a departure from the statement Tuberville issued Saturday in the immediate wake of the attacks…….
    ……….

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  651. If polling is reality, Rip, we’d be in the 2nd Hillary Clinton term.

    whembly (5f7596) — 10/12/2023 @ 10:02 am

    Polling a one on one race (such as a general election) is different from polling a primary (multi-candidate) race.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  652. More importantly: discussing/analyzing the polling of the potential popular vote result is different than polling the Electoral College result.

    Sam G (8d2ed1)

  653. State Department: Israel: Travel Advisory Raised to Level 3 – Reconsider Travel

    Summary: Terrorist groups, lone-actor terrorists and other violent extremists continue plotting possible attacks in Israel and the West Bank and Gaza. Terrorists and violent extremists may attack with little or no warning, targeting tourist locations, transportation hubs, markets/shopping malls, and local government facilities. Violence can occur in Israel and the West Bank and Gaza without warning. There has been a marked increase in demonstrations throughout Israel, some with little or no warning.

    No kidding.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  654. More importantly: discussing/analyzing the polling of the potential popular vote result is different than polling the Electoral College result.

    Sam G (8d2ed1) — 10/12/2023 @ 11:57 am

    True, but we haven’t reached that stage yet. Neither party has a nominee.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  655. Very true.

    But if we’re going to talk about 2016 then that needs be kept in mind.

    Sam G (8d2ed1)

  656. I don’t think so…….

    This is for the masses. You don’t think that the Saudi ruling family actually cares about the Palestinians, do you? They care about their power, about commerce, and about being SEEN as being pan-Islam. But they really don’t care about people. They can, however, be relied upon to act in their interest.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  657. It’s not doomerism, it is the current polling reality.

    The wind is blowing from Vichy. Rip’s just the weatherman telling you to get used to it.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  658. Nominate Ron DeSantis.

    Or, frankly, just about any other GOP candidate.
    whembly (5f7596) — 10/12/2023 @ 7:52 am

    Listen to Whembly.

    felipe (9bcc73)

  659. it’s just that polling doesn’t account for the Electoral College.

    Actually, it does. See https://fivethirtyeight.com

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  660. @660

    It’s not doomerism, it is the current polling reality.

    The wind is blowing from Vichy. Rip’s just the weatherman telling you to get used to it.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/12/2023 @ 12:17 pm

    I’m just frustrated with the resignation, that’s all.

    It’s worth having a contentious fight as possible… if, for nothing else, forces the leading candidate to feel that blowing wind.

    whembly (5f7596)

  661. Nominate Ron DeSantis.

    Out by Christmas.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  662. Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/12/2023 @ 8:03 am

    I like your top three.

    felipe (9bcc73)

  663. whembly,

    A 2nd Trump term OR a 2nd Biden term is too horrible to contemplate. Once may be worse than the other, but they only differ in the form of the apocalypse. I’d hate to be one of Trump’s protective detail.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  664. I like your top three.

    Yeah, I’m not real keen on Pence, as the stick up his ass is pretty huge, but he’s got the wit to protect America. Maybe a little inside-the-box.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  665. I’m just frustrated with the resignation, that’s all.

    He doesn’t have to express any feelings that way, except maybe cynicism. My problem is more that I don’t need to have someone parrot the MSM to me.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  666. Otherwise, you come off as a jerk when LOL! poop-n-swoop posts.
    whembly (5f7596) — 10/12/2023 @ 9:36 am

    Ok, so this comment made me take a look at Rip’s comments, and…

    I gotta say rip is coming off like a Kamala Harris cackling “LOL” instead of communicating a lucid response. I am still not missing anything in blocking rip’s comments.

    felipe (9bcc73)

  667. @664 Nominate Ron DeSantis.

    Out by Christmas.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/12/2023 @ 12:21 pm
    Not likely… we’ll see.

    My point being is, NOW IS THE TIME TO FIGHT FOR YOUR DESIRED CANDIDATE!

    There’s always been a disconnect to the primary polls before Iowa.

    Jeb! Bush was LEADING early too, but it was easy to see that his grassroots wasn’t as strong as it should be.

    DeSantis (and to certain extent Haley), has shown massive grass root ground game in the early states.

    Right now, Trump is riding on his own coat tails being a former President. And yes, it’s pretty dang potent too.

    But, I don’t think the other candidates should throw the towel just yet either.

    Let’s watch it play out…at least till the beginning of the year.

    whembly (5f7596)

  668. Still, DeSantis? Weak on Ukraine…maybe too aggressive with Mexico. I worry that he’s not guided by wisdom.

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3) — 10/12/2023 @ 8:22 am

    Ronnie D’s aggressive but in a Special Forces precision targets kind of way. Vivek’s rhetoric and full on contempt for the whole is gonna get a lot of Hindu High School kids get treated like this

    urbanleftbehind (f8c2a6)

  669. Ronnie D’s aggressive but in a Special Forces precision targets kind of way. – urbanleftbehind (f8c2a6) — 10/12/2023 @ 12:43 pm

    What an interesting insight, urban. I like DeSantis’ spunk, but he comes across to me the same as Rick Perry did, in that both Perry and DeSantis always sound like they are speaking off of cards and canned phrases – nothing like the way DeSantis sounds when speaking on state issues to local press.

    I think he needs more experience as Governor before more people than Floridians would take him seriously. Ron also needs to loosen up on the national stage and demonstrate confidence by speaking more off-the-cuff.

    felipe (9bcc73)

  670. I worry that he’s not guided by wisdom.

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3) — 10/12/2023 @ 8:22 am

    Yeah. I’m with you on that one. I would not be surprised if DeSantis was being guided by political consultants whispering “all this and more could be yours, if only you would bow to…”

    Yeah, I creep myself out, sometimes.

    felipe (9bcc73)

  671. Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 10/12/2023 @ 11:51 am

    Polling a one on one race (such as a general election) is different from polling a primary (multi-candidate) race

    The perception of who are the top two candidates, and the results of previous primary elections, strongly affects who people want to vote for.

    Besides opinions changing.

    Sammy Finkelman (7a85f9)

  672. Jeb! Bush was LEADING early too…….

    Not by 50+ points.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  673. I’m just frustrated with the resignation, that’s all.

    It’s not resignation, but just recognition as to what the current political landscape is, not as I wish it to be.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  674. I would not be surprised if (fill in the blank) was being guided by political consultants whispering “all this and more could be yours, if only you would bow to…”

    FIFY. The only candidate who is not guided by political consultants is Trump, and Republican voters love him for it.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  675. I agree. I think DeSantis has trusted too many consultants. If he would have aimed more for the middle and watched how Tim Scott works a crowd, I think he would be competitive with Trump. Hey, this cycle is really tough for non-Trump. DeSantis is young enough and can find other ways to stay relevant…but he sort of lost his sheen. I suspect it’s less about culture war issues…and more about connecting with people personally.

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  676. Vivek’s rhetoric and full on contempt for the whole is gonna get a lot of Hindu High School kids get treated like this

    Interestingly, Ramaswamy’s name is nowhere in the article, and neither is the religion (or ethnicity) of the victim. A complete non-sequitur.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  677. If he would have aimed more for the middle and watched how Tim Scott works a crowd, I think he would be competitive with Trump.

    It all comes down to personality. DeSantis is a control freak, while Scott and Haley are much more outgoing. You either have it or don’t.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  678. Trump suggests Scalise’s health a concern in his Speaker bid
    ………….
    “I mean, he’s got to get better for himself. I’m not talking about even country now. I’m saying got to get better. And this is tremendous stress. All of the things that you hear about, and things that you don’t want to get involved in from the standpoint of getting well,” Trump said in the interview (with Fox News host Brian Kilmeade on his radio show), which was recorded Wednesday and released Thursday.

    The former president said Scalise is going through “very, very serious cancer therapy,” and he also cited the “aftereffect” of the congressman getting shot and seriously wounded in 2017 during a congressional baseball game practice.

    “These treatments, they drain you of strength, supposedly,” Trump said. “It’s like a draining of strength. And we need tremendous strength both inside and out, because we have radical left, lunatics like Nancy Pelosi and [fellow California Democratic Rep. Adam] Schiff and all these crazy people that are so bad for our country.”
    ……….

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  679. Death toll of people with United States citizenship killed raised to 27 with 14 missing.

    There may be no confirmed prisoners, or is there one? UAE was trying to arrange exchange of women and children for female prisoners belonging to Hamas in Israeli jails.

    Sammy Finkelman (7a85f9)

  680. Trump just uses any argument that comes in handy to support whatever he wants.

    Sammy Finkelman (7a85f9)

  681. With support for Scalise in limbo, some Republicans look for alternatives

    Some House Republicans have begun to conclude that Majority Leader Steve Scalise (R-La.) has little chance of being elected speaker of the House, throwing the fractured conference further into chaos as members potentially reignite the search for a nominee who can unite them.
    ………
    ………(M)ultiple aides and lawmakers say Jordan can’t get 217 Republican votes, either. His refusal to wholeheartedly back Scalise, rally his supporters behind him and accept the speaker election results has created a significant group of never-Jordan Republicans.
    ………
    There also are growing calls from various ideological factions to extend the powers of Speaker Pro Tempore Patrick T. McHenry (R-N.C.) so the House can begin to address critical pieces of legislation. But such a move is unprecedented and would require changing the House rules — and might need Democratic support to do so. Current rules state that the temporary position exists only to facilitate and oversee the election of a speaker.
    ………
    After Scalise won 113 votes in Wednesday’s conference meeting, a simple majority as required by Republicans’ rules, he gave a rousing speech to try to achieve party unity. But some Republicans immediately came out in opposition for a variety of reasons. Some pointed to Scalise’s lack of a plan to fund the government, lingering anger that McCarthy lost the job, opposition to giving the next person in line to McCarthy a promotion, and making unrealistic promises to some members that others saw as a continuation of how McCarthy governed.
    ………
    Many lawmakers were angry at what they say was a serious lapse of judgment when Scalise worked to block a proposed conference rule change that would have kept House Republicans voting behind closed doors until a speaker nominee earned 217 votes. A vote on the proposed rule change failed in Wednesday’s meeting after Scalise and his allies whipped against the measure, knowing that tabling it would allow him to grab the nomination with a simple majority and betting that Republicans would simply coalesce around him.
    ……..
    Because there is now bad blood between Scalise and Jordan allies over how each group handled the outcome of the conference election, some Republicans noted it is not guaranteed that Scalise’s supporters would move to Jordan’s camp.
    ……..
    Moderate Republicans continue to feel it is particularly risky to vote for Jordan, who is closely aligned with former president Donald Trump. While members do not know what kind of policy prescriptions Jordan would make the House vote on, swing-district Republicans worry that his MAGA bona fides and name recognition nationally could negatively affect their reelection chances.
    ……..
    (Rep. Anna Paulina Luna (R-Fla.)), who changed her mind about supporting Scalise, suggested Thursday that there was a group of lawmakers who would back whomever Trump said they should for speaker.
    ……..
    Both Jordan and Scalise also voted against certifying the 2020 election of Joe Biden after the Jan. 6, 2021, insurrection at the Capitol, but Republicans have not brought that up as a point of concern.
    ……..

    Waiting for the white smoke.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  682. 677. Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 10/12/2023 @ 2:01 pm

    The only candidate who is not guided by political consultants is Trump,

    Maybe the key word is “guided.” I am sure he takes advice from a variety of people. He’s good at picking between them and double checks what he is told.

    Sammy Finkelman (7a85f9)

  683. 218.

    DUBAI—Iranian security officials helped plan Hamas’s Saturday surprise attack on Israel and gave the green light for the assault at a meeting in Beirut last Monday, according to senior members of Hamas and Hezbollah, another Iran-backed militant group.

    The only explanation for this I can think of is that this is what was told to mid-level operatives of terror groups in Dubai and they didn’t realize that so many people were told that it would leak, and those people safe in Dubai were not reminded not to talk about it to foreign reporters.

    And it has to parallel the truth although key facts may have been omitted.

    Sammy Finkelman (7a85f9)

  684. and (Trump) double checks what he is told.

    Now that is funny! 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

    It certainly doesn’t apply to anything he has been indicted for. He was clearly told by his lawyers that a) he lost the 2020 election and that b) he needed to surrender the classified documents he withheld, yet he believed and acted upon his opposite belief.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  685. Opposing Scalise:

    The nos. A huge block of members seems unwilling to consider a Scalise speakership. That opposition runs from moderates all the way to hardcore conservatives.

    Rep. Nancy Mace (R-S.C.) went on Jake Tapper’s CNN show Wednesday to remind the public that Scalise once attended a white supremacist meeting when running for the legislature in Louisiana. Rep. Max Miller (R-Ohio) keeps saying he’ll only vote for Jordan on the floor.

    Rep. Mike Lawler (R-N.Y.) has all but closed off the possibility of voting for Scalise, as have Reps. Carlos Gimènez (R-Fla.) and Lloyd Smucker (R-Pa.). Rep. Barry Moore (R-Ala.) was for Jordan, then Scalise, and now says he wants Jordan. Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene (R-Ga.) said she’d rather Scalise focus on treating his multiple myeloma, a form of blood cancer, than serve as speaker.

    Rep. Chip Roy (R-Texas) said Scalise’s handling of his motion to change the conference rules was a “setback” for consideration of the Louisiana Republican as speaker. Indicted Rep. George Santos (R-N.Y.) posted late last night that he’s never heard from Scalise since being in Congress and won’t back him. Reps. Bob Good (R-Va.) and Lauren Boebert (R-Colo.) both said they would vote for Jordan on the floor.

    Rep. Tom Massie (R-Ky.) said he assumed there were at least 20 conservatives lined up against Scalise.
    ………

    More:

    House Democrats have a pretty simple strategy for this week: watch and wait.
    ……..
    Whenever the House does convene to vote for a speaker, Democrats will again unite behind Jeffries. They renominated him privately in less than 10 minutes this week — even clapping for two minutes straight — with House Democratic Caucus Chair Pete Aguilar jokingly “noting for Jake Sherman (founder of Punchbowl News), if he’s listening,” according to members in the room.
    ……..
    Here’s what we know: There haven’t been any high-level conversations among Democrats about a specific list of demands they would make in order to help a Republican somehow secure the speakership.

    But the broad things senior Democrats are interested in seem pretty straightforward: raising the threshold for the motion to vacate; a real plan to fund the government beyond Nov. 17; and a promise to bring legislation to the floor providing aid to Israel and Ukraine.
    ……….
    Still, top Democrats told us Republicans have made clear their input is not “welcome nor needed,” so they’re staying quiet for now. We’ll see if that changes as the speaker saga drags on.
    ………..

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  686. Part of how Israel messed up:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/10/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-security-failure.html

    Shortly before attackers from Gaza poured into Israel at dawn on Saturday, Israeli intelligence detected a surge in activity on some of the Gazan militant networks it monitors. Realizing something unusual was happening, agents sent an alert to the Israeli soldiers guarding the Gazan border, according to two senior Israeli security officials.

    But the warning wasn’t acted upon, either because the soldiers didn’t get it or the soldiers didn’t read it.

    Shortly afterward, Hamas, the group that controls Gaza, sent drones to disable some of the Israeli military’s cellular communications stations and surveillance towers along the border, preventing the duty officers from monitoring the area remotely with video cameras. The drones also destroyed remote-controlled machine guns that Israel had installed on its border fortifications, removing a key means of combating a ground attack.

    That made it easier for Hamas assailants to approach and blow up parts of the border fence and bulldoze it in several places with surprising ease, allowing thousands of Palestinians to walk through the gaps…..

    ….The four officials said the success of the attack, based on their early assessment, was rooted in a slew of security failures by Israel’s intelligence community and military, including:

    Failure by intelligence officers to monitor key communication channels used by Palestinian attackers;

    Overreliance on border surveillance equipment that was easily shut down by attackers, allowing them to raid military bases and slay soldiers in their beds;

    Clustering of commanders in a single border base that was overrun in the opening phase of the incursion, preventing communication with the rest of the armed forces;

    And a willingness to accept at face value assertions by Gazan military leaders, made on private channels that the Palestinians knew were being monitored by Israel, that they were not preparing for battle.

    “We spend billions and billions on gathering intelligence on Hamas,” said Yoel Guzansky, a former senior official at Israel’s National Security Council. “Then, in a second,” he added, “everything collapsed like dominoes.”

    See also:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/10/world/middleeast/hamas-israel-attack-gaza.html

    Sammy Finkelman (7a85f9)

  687. I saii Trump double checks what he is told. That doesn’t mean he s=is interested in the truth (merely in what will fly – he also often gives up lies ad drops them. He doesn’t wait.)

    Nor does it mean that he always takes the legally safest course of action

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 10/12/2023 @ 2:41 pm

    He was clearly told by his lawyers that a) he lost the 2020 election

    Yes he knew. He was looking for ways to reverse that.

    and that b) he needed to surrender the classified documents he withheld, yet he believed and acted upon his opposite belief.

    He just didn’t want to do that. He probably consulted different people about how things worked. He decided to hide papers from his lawyers.

    Sammy Finkelman (7a85f9)

  688. I saii Trump double checks what he is told.

    Still LOL!

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  689. He repeatedly asks different people about the same things. You see it everywhere,

    Sammy Finkelman (7a85f9)

  690. The only candidate who is not guided by facts is Trump, and Republican voters love him for it.

    FIFY

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  691. Comedy Gold!

    ………
    Representative Mike Rogers of Alabama, chairman of the Armed Services Committee, emerged from a contentious closed-door meeting of House Republicans to tell reporters that Democratic leader Hakeem Jeffries should spell out what concessions he would require to help the GOP elect a speaker.

    “They put us in this ditch along with eight traitors,” Rogers said at the Capitol. “We’re still the majority party, we’re willing to work with them, but they gotta tell us what they need.”
    ………
    Asked about Rogers’ demand for Democrats to make a specific offer, House Democratic Whip Katherine Clark said it would be up to the caucus.

    “Our door is open. We want to get back to governing,” Clark said. “The American people need that, and our allies abroad.”
    ………
    Another Republican, David Joyce of Ohio, told reporters he’s contacted Democrats about expanding the authority of acting Speaker Pro Tem Patrick McHenry of North Carolina so that the House can act on legislation. Joyce said he has proposed granting McHenry such powers for a limited period of time — perhaps 30 or 60 days — and Democrats have been amenable to that approach to act on issues like Israel.
    ……..
    ……..Rogers said Democrats should make a specific offer that could provide a basis for opening negotiations.

    “They haven’t offered jack,” Rogers said.

    Rogers said Democrats wouldn’t have to cast votes in favor of a Republican speaker nominee but could instead enable their election by voting “present,” lowering the threshold needed for victory.
    ……….

    Rogers wants a favor from the Democrats, but blaming them for “(putting) us in this ditch” by voting against McCarthy as Speaker is not the way to go about it. What does Rogers think that a minority party should do? Bail out the majority for a stupid decision? It is to laugh-the Republicans should be able to figure it out on their own. If Rogers was serious, it should be the Republicans offering concessions first, not the other way around.

    The best temporary solution would be to grant the Speaker Pro Tem additional authority to act like the regular Speaker.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  692. That opposition runs from moderates all the way to hardcore conservatives.

    Which on that list are “moderates”? Hint: No one in the HFC is a moderate. No one who favors Jordan is a moderate. I doubt that pro-Putin Jordan can break 150 votes.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  693. Correct Formatting:

    Comedy Gold!

    ………
    Representative Mike Rogers of Alabama, chairman of the Armed Services Committee, emerged from a contentious closed-door meeting of House Republicans to tell reporters that Democratic leader Hakeem Jeffries should spell out what concessions he would require to help the GOP elect a speaker.

    “They put us in this ditch along with eight traitors,” Rogers said at the Capitol. “We’re still the majority party, we’re willing to work with them, but they gotta tell us what they need.”
    ………
    Asked about Rogers’ demand for Democrats to make a specific offer, House Democratic Whip Katherine Clark said it would be up to the caucus.

    “Our door is open. We want to get back to governing,” Clark said. “The American people need that, and our allies abroad.”
    ………
    Another Republican, David Joyce of Ohio, told reporters he’s contacted Democrats about expanding the authority of acting Speaker Pro Tem Patrick McHenry of North Carolina so that the House can act on legislation. Joyce said he has proposed granting McHenry such powers for a limited period of time — perhaps 30 or 60 days — and Democrats have been amenable to that approach to act on issues like Israel.
    ……..
    ……..Rogers said Democrats should make a specific offer that could provide a basis for opening negotiations.

    “They haven’t offered jack,” Rogers said.

    Rogers said Democrats wouldn’t have to cast votes in favor of a Republican speaker nominee but could instead enable their election by voting “present,” lowering the threshold needed for victory.
    ……….

    Rogers wants a favor from the Democrats, but blaming them for “(putting) us in this ditch” by voting against McCarthy as Speaker is not the way to go about it. What does Rogers think that a minority party should do? Bail out the majority for a stupid decision? It is to laugh-the Republicans should be able to figure it out on their own. If Rogers was serious, it should be the Republicans offering concessions first, not the other way around.

    The best temporary solution would be to grant the Speaker Pro Tem additional authority to act like the regular Speaker.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  694. Right now, Jeffries looks like he has the lead.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  695. I said Trump double checks what he is told.

    Still LOL!

    Never laugh at insane people. It’s not polite.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  696. No one has to offer McHenry anything. He just has to rule that he has the power and not get 217 votes saying he doesn’t.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  697. Poll: Majority blames gov’t for Hamas massacre, says Netanyahu must resign

    Four out of five Jewish Israelis believe the government and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu are to blame for the mass infiltration of Hamas terrorists into Israel and the massacre that followed, a new Dialog Center poll released on Thursday found.
    ………
    Furthermore, almost all the respondents (94%) believe the government must bear some responsibility for the lack of security preparedness that led to the assault, with over 75% saying the government holds most of the responsibility.
    ………
    A slim majority of 56% said Netanyahu must resign at the end of the war, with 28% of coalition voters agreeing with this view, and 52% of respondents also expect Defense Minister Yoav Gallant to resign.
    ……..

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  698. No one has to offer McHenry anything. He just has to rule that he has the power and not get 217 votes saying he doesn’t.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/12/2023 @ 3:20 pm

    Depending on the issue, I can see the power grab being rejected by both parties.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  699. McHenry doesn’t seem the type to go beyond what is expected of the Speaker Pro Tem, he appears to be a power minimalist. If MTG was the SPT, she would be a power maximalist.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  700. So, Trump praises Hezbollah. The big friend of Israel said that.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  701. The Sun is not shy about posting gruesome photos of Israeli nurseries.

    https://www.the-sun.com/news/9306751/israel-hamas-gaza-babies-massacre/

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  702. RIP Rudolph Isley (84). Founding member of the Isley Brothers:

    ……….
    The Isley Brothers didn’t pioneer styles so much as crystallize their essences, on singles that turned into enduring classics. Their biggest hits — “Shout” and “Twist and Shout,” which arrived in the late 1950s and early 1960s; “This Old Heart of Mine (Is Weak for You),” a smash during Motown’s heyday in the 1960s; “It’s Your Thing” and “That Lady,” two keystones of 1970s funk — lived on not only through constant radio airplay but also through covers and sampled interpolations by the likes of the Beatles, Rod Stewart, Public Enemy, Ice Cube, the Notorious B.I.G. and Kendrick Lamar.

    During their earliest years, the Isley Brothers balanced showbiz standards with gospel-inspired R&B, a blend that led them to their breakthrough single, 1959’s “Shout.” The frenzied call-and-response raver became a garage-band standard — rockabilly singer Dale Hawkins told music historian Elijah Wald, “Back then, if you didn’t play ‘Shout,’ you might as well stay home” — that was later immortalized by the fictional R&B band Otis Day & the Knights’ in the 1978 comedy “National Lampoon’s Animal House.”

    Twist and Shout,” their next hit, also became a standard thanks in large part to a cover cut by the Beatles……..

    ……….After a transitional period ushered in by the hard soul of 1969’s “It’s Your Thing,” their first hit single on their own label T-Neck, the group dabbled in politically conscious progressive soul before the addition of three younger family members — brothers Ernie and Marvin, plus Rudolph’s brother-in-law Chris Jasper — transformed the group into their second, arguably most influential incarnation: flamboyant funk-rockers with a penchant for slow jams.

    Although the pop hits didn’t dry up — “That Lady,” the first single from the expanded Isley Brothers, went into the Top 10 in 1973, with “Fight the Power” replicating its success two years later — Isleys 2.0 ruled the R&B charts in the 1970s. Their LPs — typically one side of funk, one of smooth soul — contained the grooves that would later power such hip-hop classics as Public Enemy’s “Fight the Power” (“Fight the Power”), Ice Cube’s “It Was a Good Day” (“Footsteps in the Dark”) and the Notorious B.I.G.’s “Big Poppa” (“Between the Sheets”).

    At the peak of the Isleys’ fame in the 1970s, Rudolph Isley could be an imposing figure. Big and burly, he sported fur-lined stage costumes created by renowned designer Bernard Johnson, outfits accentuated by a walking cane. …….
    ………..

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  703. I imagine Mike Rogers didn’t intend this, but ya know…if 5 GOP members voted present then Jeffries would assumedly be elected Speaker…

    Sam G (8d2ed1)

  704. Parties just don’t have that much power anymore. In years past, a member could be muscled by the Party to vote with the team through threat of bad committee assignment or cutting of campaign funds. I’m not sure that the MTG-Boebert-Gaetz types will be moved by any of it. They fundraise on the internet and will get plenty of FNC face time without doing actual committee work. There’s really no sense of being on one team or doing what’s best for the party.

    I can’t pretend to care too deeply…though obviously with Ukraine and Israel funding holding in the balance…we do need some actual leadership. I would cast the most obnoxious of the obstructors out of the caucus. I would probably make a deal with the DEMs to share power in exchange for Scalise. It would probably mean getting rid of the impeachment investigation…but a message has to be sent. At some point, you’re really not with the caucus and it’s truly a minority party. If they don’t blink, then it’s clear what the GOP has to do in 2024.

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  705. If they don’t blink, then it’s clear what the GOP has to do in 2024.

    The “GOP” won’t do anything-it’s up to their voters. If the House Reps make a deal with the Democrats, all heck will break loose. MAGAWorld will explode and drive Trump to victory.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  706. MAGAWorld will explode and drive Trump to victory.

    LOL! You really think that the reason Trump lost and the Red Tide was a red dribble is because MAGAWorld had a “get out the moonwaffles to vote explode” problem?

    nk (ad6977)

  707. Anyway, the Democrats did not need to dumb themselves down to insentience in order to live with Trump. They still know what’s what and where it’s at. If they make any deals with a potential Republican Speaker it will be only to keep their own loonies from bringing a motion to vacate. Like Jeffries did with AOC. And it will be behind the scenes and not on the Floor.

    nk (ad6977)

  708. MAGAWorld will explode and drive Trump to victory.

    LOL! You really think that the reason Trump lost and the Red Tide was a red dribble is because MAGAWorld had a “get out the moonwaffles to vote explode” problem?

    nk (ad6977) — 10/12/2023 @ 5:26 pm

    No, I am saying that if the House Republicans make a deal with Democrats to select a new Speaker, Trump’s voters will be infuriated and feeling betrayed, and work even harder for his reelection.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  709. Breaking-

    Steve Scalise Quits House Speaker Race

    Rep. Steve Scalise withdrew from contention for House speaker late Thursday, after clinching the Republican Party’s nomination but failing to win over a stubborn bloc of critics who stood between him and the gavel, the latest dramatic turn in the party’s leadership fight.
    ……..
    ……… He made the announcement at a GOP conference meeting Thursday evening.
    ………
    Scalise’s efforts to win over the holdouts had stalled Thursday, when a nearly three-hour meeting he called ended in an impasse and later efforts to sway his opponents came up short. Although the Louisiana Republican is well-liked within his party, some hard-line Republicans objected to promoting a figure they viewed as an extension of the status quo.

    It wasn’t immediately clear what the next steps would be for a chamber that has been effectively frozen for more than a week. More Republicans had been openly discussing Thursday the possibility of giving Speaker Pro Tempore Rep. Patrick McHenry (R., N.C.) more power to bring legislation to the House floor, a move that would likely require a vote by the full House.
    ……….
    Republicans described a situation so rudderless that no one could come up with a strategy for breaking the impasse. Supporters of Scalise called for settling matters on the floor with a vote to force all members to take a public stance, but a bloc supporting Jordan promised to stop Scalise from winning. Scalise’s performance on subsequent ballots would be worse than on an initial round of voting, they said.
    ………
    The number of Scalise opponents was thought to stretch to as many as 20 members, beyond the dozen or so who have publicly rejected him. ………

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  710. Good for Scalise. He refused to pay for the job with his self-respect.

    nk (ad6977)

  711. Bill Melugin @BillMelugin_
    Oct 9

    Border Patrol arrests of suspects on the FBI’s terror watchlist at the southern border:

    FY’23 – 151 (so far).
    FY’22 – 98
    FY’21 – 15
    FY’20 – 3
    FY’19 – 0
    FY’18 – 6
    FY’17 – 2

    There have also been over 1.5 million *known* gotaways since start of 2021, enough to fill 16 Rose Bowls.

    Houman David Hemmati, MD, PhD
    @houmanhemmati

    Oct 9
    Wow. How many of those you’ve listed been Iranian or Palestinian or known to have connections to Islamic terror groups? And what ended up happening to them?

    Bill Melugin
    @BillMelugin_

    I’ll work on getting the numbers – as for what happens to the terror watchlist arrests, almost impossible to know. Once the Feds have them it’s a black hole on information and lots of “no comment”.

    Sammy,

    you told me this was impossible and the number was zero. Why?

    NJRob (565f31)

  712. nk (ad6977) — 10/12/2023 @ 5:41 pm

    Here comes Mr. Jordan.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  713. I think I’m with nk. It looks like it’s Jordan… or trying to persuade the DEMs to power share. For the DEMs, the question is how long to hold out…and can they eventually get Jeffries by exhausting the process.

    The other question is whether Jordan’s Ukraine policy makes him a non-starter with too many. I would set a clock on it…publicly….and then deal. I doubt that a civil war in the GOP will work in Trump’s favor. It just shows dysfunction….and Trump just offers more of it. The 40% normals will not work harder for a Jordan-Trump agenda.

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  714. I think it’s more likely that the Republicans need to be persuaded to share power with the Democrats, not the other way around; Republicans will be required to make concessions. I also disagree that a GOP Civil War (the metaphorical kind) doesn’t work in Trump’s favor, he feeds on chaos. For the time being, the best solution is a short term Speaker McHenry.

    Too bad the 40% normals aren’t a majority.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  715. And I don’t think Jordan can find 217 votes to become Speaker either. It’s a stalemate.

    Rip Murdock (fbcaa5)

  716. Which on that list are “moderates”? Hint: No one in the HFC is a moderate. No one who favors Jordan is a moderate. I doubt that pro-Putin Jordan can break 150 votes.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/12/2023 @ 3:16 pm

    Left-leaning Republicans need to grow up or quit the party. But spouting hatred towards a strong Republican leader like Jordan is bound to lead to failure.

    The mood of the public isn’t on the side of leftists.

    NJRob (565f31)

  717. It’s Trump f^cking them around.

    nk (ad6977)

  718. Left-leaning Republicans need to grow up or quit the party.

    Yikes! Imagine if just enough RINOs switch party affiliation? Welcome back Nancy!

    felipe (9bcc73)

  719. The mood of the public is mercurial. I remember when I thought hillbillies were cute.

    nk (ad6977)

  720. 3 israel IDF officers knew hamas was about to attack ;but were overruled! (axios)

    asset (36a3de)

  721. Yikes! Imagine if just enough RINOs switch party affiliation? Welcome back Nancy!

    felipe (9bcc73) — 10/12/2023 @ 6:24 pm

    Democrats need only five “left leaning” Republicans to do so. And it would be Hakeem Jeffries, not Nancy Pelosi, who would become Speaker.

    Rip Murdock (d353df)

  722. If all the “left leaning” Republicans moved to the Democratic side of the aisle, the House Republican caucus really would be a minority party.

    Rip Murdock (d353df)

  723. I am no theologian, but this seems odd, perhaps even sinful, to me:

    A Republican congressman and member of the conservative House Freedom Caucus admitted last week he “was praying” the GOP would win just a “small” majority in the House of Representatives ahead of the 2022 midterm elections in order to shift the party further to the right, according to video obtained Monday by Fox News Digital.

    “When a lot of people, unfortunately, were voting, to have a 270, 280 Republican House, I was praying each evening for a small majority, because I recognize that that small majority was the only way that we were going to advance a conservative agenda,” Rep. Matt Rosendale, R-Mont., said during a closed briefing, which The Messenger first reported was “a virtual briefing for around 50 top conservative donors.”

    Still, I have to admit that he got what he was praying for. (The nation is worse off for that success. Which doesn’t seem conservative to me.)

    (FWIW, Rosendale appears to be Catholic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matt_Rosendale Perhaps the Pope should have a word with him.)

    Jim Miller (ea859e)

  724. Expect to hear more about Jim Jordan’s time as an assistant wrestling coach at Ohio State, soon:

    Vazquez is one of six former OSU wrestlers who told CNN in recent interviews that they were present when Jordan heard or responded to sexual misconduct complaints about team doctor Richard Strauss. Eight others say Strauss’ inappropriate behavior was an open secret in the athletic department and that Jordan, among others, must have known about it.

    Given the numbers, and the consistency of their testimony, I am inclined to believe the wrestlers.

    Jim Miller (ea859e)

  725. Jim Miller (ea859e) — 10/12/2023 @ 7:02 pm

    It’s nice to know prayers are answered.

    Rip Murdock (d353df)

  726. Jim Miller (ea859e) — 10/12/2023 @ 7:10 pm

    May be the House Judiciary Committee should investigate.

    Oh wait………

    Rip Murdock (d353df)

  727. Felipe,

    it’s plain as day that the far left runs the leftist party. So if they prefer leftism I’d rather they leave and let real conservatives offer an alternative.

    We see plenty of chatter of kicking the freedom caucus out by the chattering classes.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  728. @730 Its not what you prefer. Its what the corporate establishment and deep state that runs this country prefer. Ask bernie sanders about the what the establishment did to him! They didn’t think clinton would lose in 2016 so they didn’t crush trump (then) as the prefer the steel fist inside the velvet glove. Your lucky they fear us on the left a lot more then they fear the right.

    asset (36a3de)

  729. The “GOP” won’t do anything-it’s up to their voters. If the House Reps make a deal with the Democrats, all heck will break loose.

    As it stands, the House GOP is a dumpster fire. Who would vote for this crap even without Trump. They’re going to lose 50 seats in 2024 the way this is going. They will probably win some Senate seats.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  730. Trump’s voters will be infuriated and feeling betrayed, and work even harder for his reelection.

    The party is close to splitting now. Trump’s nomination, dragging 7 felony convictions behind him like cans on a cat (“a badge of honor”) will be the last straw.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  731. Here comes Mr. Jordan.

    Jordan will never be speaker, nor will any member of the HFC. The moment that the GOP has some slack (and this could be after losing the House) they will make some people pay.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  732. Left-leaning Republicans need to grow up or quit the party.

    People to the left of the HFC are not “left-leaning” they just aren’t &^%*ing dips*^&%s.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  733. I guessed that from the start, BuDuh, and said so here a couple of weeks ago.

    But it was not only anti-Trump “nyah-nyahers” who promulgated the libel. Letitia James lied through her teeth when she said the New York statute granted a right to jury trial in response to Trump’s complaint that it did not.

    nk (094227)

  734. @715

    nk (ad6977) — 10/12/2023 @ 5:41 pm

    Here comes Mr. Jordan.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 10/12/2023 @ 5:46 pm

    It’s doubtful that he has the vote too.

    The malcontents are burning some serious bridges.

    whembly (5f7596)

  735. Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/12/2023 @ 10:30 pm

    whembly (5f7596) — 10/13/2023 @ 6:16 am

    Sorry you didn’t get the pun.

    Here Comes Mr. Jordan was a 1941 film starring Robert Montgomery as a boxer mistakenly taken to Heaven before his time, is given a second chance back on Earth.

    It was remade as Heaven Can Wait (the original title) in 1978 with Warren Beatty, Buck Henry, and Julie Christie.

    I noted that Jordan probably didn’t have the votes in post 718.

    Rip Murdock (d353df)

  736. Rip,

    How many folks are going to get a reference to a 1941 movie? (Wizard of Oz and Gone With the Wind don’t count since they are 1939.)

    Well if the Trumpers get control, Rip, I hope they don’t hang you, precious, by that sweet neck.

    Appalled (03f53c)

  737. Appalled (03f53c) — 10/13/2023 @ 7:05 am

    DC whatever would have got it. Lack of knowledge of our cultural history is not my problem. It’s a fairly famous film.

    People here take some stuff way too seriously.

    I have no idea why you predicted that Trumpers would hang me, that was certainly uncalled for.

    Rip Murdock (d353df)

  738. I have no idea why you predicted that Trumpers would hang me, that was certainly uncalled for.

    The Maltese Falcon (1941).

    nk (689770)

  739. Wait, that Chris Rock movie is a remake? Dayam.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  740. Sam Spade: “When you’re slapped, you’ll take it and like it.”

    Wilmer Cook: Keep askin’ for it and you’re gonna to get it – plenty. I told you to shove off. Shove off.
    Sam Spade: People lose teeth talking like that. If you want to hang around, you’ll be polite.

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  741. I have no idea why you predicted that Trumpers would hang me, that was certainly uncalled for.

    The Maltese Falcon (1941).

    nk (689770) — 10/13/2023 @ 7:36 am

    The Maltese Falcon mentioned Trumpers? Who knew!

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  742. It’s obvious we need a new Weekend Open Thread, as everyone has run out of things to say here.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  743. Correction:

    It’s obvious we need a new Weekend Open Thread, as everyone has run out of constructive things to say here.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 10/13/2023 @ 8:39 am

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  744. I guessed that from the start, BuDuh, and said so here a couple of weeks ago.

    I still don’t think the “equitable relief” assertion is correct as the penalties are astronomical and quite punitive.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  745. #741

    Did you mean to make my point for me?

    Appalled (8228cf)

  746. The malcontents are burning some serious bridges.

    For all intents and purposes, they have resigned from the GOP. There’s only so much lipstick you can put on this pig. At some point soon, they’ll be ejected from the Caucus and then a coalition will have to be formed.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  747. Citizen Kane FTW.

    (Although I prefer the thing that dreams are made of)

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  748. Appalled (8228cf) — 10/13/2023 @ 9:14 am

    No, I was just appalled at your comment.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  749. At some point soon, they’ll be ejected from the Caucus and then a coalition will have to be formed.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/13/2023 @ 9:16 am

    LOL!

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  750. At some point soon, they’ll be ejected from the Caucus and then a coalition will have to be formed.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/13/2023 @ 9:16 am

    Not as long as they are backed by Trump. Republican “moderates” will be afraid of being primaried by MAGA candidates.

    And who would the coalition be with-certainly not between Republicans and Democrats.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  751. Sam G (8d2ed1) — 10/12/2023 @ 10:37 am

    @638 WaPo is reporting that the $6bil has been re-frozen.

    Informally.

    Several newspapers report that,

    Sammy Finkelman (d3a0ef)

  752. NJRob (565f31) — 10/12/2023 @ 5:43 pm

    Terrorist groups have av history of only sending foot soldiers into the United States who have valid visas. They don’t want defections,=. If they changed policy, there’d be some stopped and caught, and if there was real information they’d be charged with a crime and there’d be a terror alert and warnings, There are no active terrorist groups they can join, only allied but non-military leftists, especially on college campuses,

    Sammy Finkelman (d3a0ef)

  753. Sponsors of terrorists also don’t want to be bombed, And Mexican smugglers know they will be held to blame if they help in anyway. This
    is the thing informants would most want o inform about to protect themselves from prosecution, The FBI once ran a sting operation against Iran using a Mexican drug informer and they got iran to agree to let an attack go ahead even if it killed 100 people in a Washington, D.C. restaurant just in order to kill the then Saudi ambassador. By the way, using (imaginary) Mexicans killers meant they then had no network inside the United States.

    Sammy Finkelman (d3a0ef)

  754. Not as long as they are backed by Trump. Republican “moderates” will be afraid of being primaried by MAGA candidates.

    They will be anyway.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  755. steveg (ce3cfa) — 10/8/2023 @ 2:50 pm

    I don’t think the Saudi’s would stand in the way of an Israeli attack on Iran by denying airspace. The Saudi’s could say they were not aware of the incursion, the Israeli stealth and Electronic counter measures must have blinded their systems

    Iran will find out quickly if that’s the truth or not. Saudi Arabia is making a rapprochement with Iran They possibly expect an attack on Iran and don’t want to get attacked in return.

    As far stopping the Israel-Saudi rapprochement, the terrorist attacks have succeeded, and that is a lesson for anyone who in the future proposes any kind of peace agreement.

    Only a military alliance between Israel and its enemies is possible, nothing less.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  756. Only a military alliance between Israel and its enemies is possible, nothing less.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 10/13/2023 @ 12:56 pm

    Comedy Gold! 🤣😂😂😂😂🤣🤣🤣🤣

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)


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