Patterico's Pontifications

10/3/2023

McCarthy’s Concessions Come Back To Bite Him

Filed under: General — Dana @ 5:42 am



[guest post by Dana]

The vote is expected to happen this week:

Representative Matt Gaetz of Florida moved to oust Speaker Kevin McCarthy from his post as retribution for cooperating with Democrats. Only two other House speakers have ever faced such a challenge.

House Republicans at, uh, work

-—Dana

153 Responses to “McCarthy’s Concessions Come Back To Bite Him”

  1. Hello.

    Dana (aac8e9)

  2. McCarthy is a symptom. This is what a dysfunctional party does…it drifts into irrelevant personality clashes. If there was a clear unifying agenda, we would see that. We don’t…primarily because fiscal sanity requires tough bipartisan choices and that requires leadership. Gaetz is no leader. He is a performance artist because that’s what the GOP base has been conditioned to value. Trumpism is about stressing the system and breaking things, and howling about grievances. This is the problem when people excuse Trump.

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  3. McCarthy is a symptom. This is what a dysfunctional party does…it drifts into irrelevant personality clashes. If there was a clear unifying agenda, we would see that. We don’t…primarily because fiscal sanity requires tough bipartisan choices and that requires leadership. Gaetz is no leader. He is a performance artist because that’s what the GOP base has been conditioned to value. Trumpism is about stressing the system and breaking things, and howling about grievances. This is the problem when people excuse Trump.

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  4. If the House, Republicans and Democrats, in concert, out McCarthy, and then turn around and expel Gaetz, I will be very proud of America.

    nk (e4a078)

  5. *oust*

    nk (e4a078)

  6. I agree, nk. We need to ask: in what do we believe, and how do our votes support our beliefs?

    I understand about voting while holding my nose, but this is getting ridiculous on both sides.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  7. Catoggio fleshes it out pretty well. The irony is that the poser from Florida who decries Republicans working with Democrats is working with Democrats to oust McCarthy.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  8. Oh goodie.

    McCarthy ousted stops the impeachment inquiry.

    Good job Gaetz… /sarc

    whembly (5f7596)

  9. The amazing scenario would be if the GOP votes to remove McCarthy, and in turn McCarthy declares it a fraudulent vote that he actually overwhelmingly won and insists upon remaining. The party deserves no less than that.

    JVW (1ad43e)

  10. McCarthy ousted stops the impeachment inquiry.

    Good job Gaetz… /sarc

    whembly (5f7596) — 10/3/2023 @ 8:39 am

    I doubt it. Biden’s impeachment has a momentum all its own.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  11. Gaetz has a point. McCarthy is doing everything he promised not to do: not moving appropriation bills in regular order, relying on Democrats to pass legislation, and passing continuing resolutions.

    The vote is expected today.

    ………
    McCarthy told reporters on Tuesday that he will bring up the motion to vacate in the first vote series of the day. The move comes after Gaetz offered what is known as a motion to vacate the chair – a rare procedural maneuver that can be used to force a vote to remove the speaker.
    ………
    House Democratic leader Hakeem Jeffries wrote in a letter to his caucus that leadership plans to vote in support of removing McCarthy.
    ………
    The first vote on Tuesday related to the motion to vacate is expected to be a procedural move to try to kill the effort. If the procedural vote fails, then there would be a vote directly on whether to remove McCarthy as speaker, which would take only a majority to succeed.

    McCarthy appeared to rule out any sort of power-sharing agreement with Democrats, telling CNN’s Manu Raju, “that doesn’t work.”
    ………

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  12. The Democrats appear to be holding, at least on the motion to table. Which will likely fail with 10 GOP members already voting NAY.

    Not sure what Jeffries’ game is here. If the speakership is vacated, the House grinds to a halt. There is ZERO chance that Jeffries will be elected, so maybe he’s hoping for a centrist speaker, or maybe he just wants to rile the Republicans and hope for a schism. It’s a bit early to set up for 2024 and voters won’t remember this period and the few who do will wonder why Jeffries let it happen when a shutdown looms again.

    As for the hive of scum and villainy known as the HFC, it’s not obvious who they think they can get elected. Gaetz? He’d get maybe 5 votes. He’ll be lucky not to be expelled.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  13. That’s it: 218 NAY. Motion to table fails.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  14. Now they debate the main motion (to vacate the speakership). Gaetz is the motion’s maker.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  15. Not sure what Jeffries’ game is here. If the speakership is vacated, the House grinds to a halt. There is ZERO chance that Jeffries will be elected, so maybe he’s hoping for a centrist speaker, or maybe he just wants to rile the Republicans and hope for a schism. It’s a bit early to set up for 2024 and voters won’t remember this period and the few who do will wonder why Jeffries let it happen when a shutdown looms again.

    It’s not the Democrat’s problem.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  16. 208 Republicans vote their support for McCarthy. 11 Oppose, 2 not voting.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  17. It’s not the Democrat’s problem.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 10/3/2023 @ 11:51 am

    Correction: It’s not the Democrats problem to get involved. This is a Republican train wreck.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  18. It’s not the Democrat’s problem.

    It’s the coutry’s problem, as much as they want to wash their hands.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  19. This is a Republican train wreck.

    No, it’s a HFC train wreck, by people who want it to all burn.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  20. It’s not the Democrat’s problem.

    It’s the coutry’s problem, as much as they want to wash their hands.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/3/2023 @ 11:53 am

    One of Gaetz’s issues is McCarthy relying on Democrats to get things passed; why shouldn’t the majority party (the Republicans), on their own, govern?

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  21. If the House, Republicans and Democrats, in concert, oust McCarthy, and then turn around and expel Gaetz, I will be very proud of America.

    While I agree about expelling Gaetz (and Santos and MTG and Boebert) I don’t see someone with a spine satisfying the GOP Caucus.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  22. The idea of expelling anyone from the Republican caucus (save Santos) is a big LOL! 🤣

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  23. One of Gaetz’s issues is McCarthy relying on Democrats to get things passed; why shouldn’t the majority party (the Republicans), on their own, govern?

    The HFC has been operating as an opposition party since 2017. They stopped a much larger majority in 2017-18 and went back to their preferred ankle-biter status as the majority was lost.

    Expel the ringleaders.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  24. The idea of expelling anyone from the Republican caucus (save Santos) is a big LOL!

    Examples need to be made. Do you think the Democrats would protect them?

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  25. Gaetz, MTG, Boebert, etc. aren’t ringleaders, they’re the unofficial leadership.

    Comedy Gold!

    Rip Murdock (01115c)

  26. The secret plan: Dump McCarthy and elect Trump as Speaker. Hilarity ensues.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  27. they’re the unofficial leadership.

    Despite only commanding 11 votes. Talk about wishcasting.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  28. The idea of expelling anyone from the Republican caucus (save Santos) is a big LOL!

    Re-read that. Not the caucus. The Congress.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  29. Do you think the Democrats would protect them?

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/3/2023 @ 12:01 pm

    There’s really no grounds to expel them, to do so would really ignite MAGAWorld; and you don’t expel a member without evidence of wrongdoing. Exercising their rights under the House rules is not a reason for expulsion. The same applies to Democrats.

    So I think the Democrats would vote no on expulsion, even just so they stay in Congress and annoy the Republicans.

    Rip Murdock (01115c)

  30. Both Gaetz and Boebert have gotten their hands caught in the nookie jar.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  31. The GOP could also just expel the HFC from their Caucus, demanding that they form their own effing party. Then allowing them on some committees if and only if they support the GOP candidate for speaker.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  32. Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/3/2023 @ 12:23 pm

    Not a crime. Gaetz was cleared of sex trafficking charges by DOJ, though he remains under investigation by the House Ethics Committee, which apparently is going nowhere.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/3/2023 @ 12:25 pm

    LOL!

    Rip Murdock (01115c)

  33. One of Gaetz’s issues is McCarthy relying on Democrats to get things passed; why shouldn’t the majority party (the Republicans), on their own, govern?

    Because people like Gaetz won’t take 80% of what they want as a victory; they are demanding 100% in a legislative body that has a very slim operating margin for the majority. If the GOP had 240 Republicans I would see his point. As it is, he needs to put on his Big Boy pants and work within the realm of possibility.

    JVW (1ad43e)

  34. Not a crime. Gaetz was cleared of sex trafficking charges by DOJ, though he remains under investigation by the House Ethics Committee, which apparently is going nowhere.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/3/2023 @ 12:25 pm

    LOL!

    Rip Murdock (01115c) — 10/3/2023 @ 12:34 pm

    What are you trying to say, Rip? Once he’s been convicted the Court of Rip Murdock then he is clearly guilty ever and after?

    Don’t be so dismissive as to how this whole sex trafficking investigation and the failure to bring charges has emboldened Gaetz, and convinced him that he is the righteous man fighting the corrupt establishment who seeks to smear and destroy truth-seekers like him. The whole investigation strikes me as having been badly mishandled and completely bungled by the DOJ, but gosh, where have we heard that before?

    JVW (1ad43e)

  35. What are you trying to say, Rip? Once he’s been convicted the Court of Rip Murdock then he is clearly guilty ever and after?

    Not at all. I agree it was probably mishandled by the DOJ, but the House Ethics Committee is still investigating him.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  36. <blockquote>Not sure what Jeffries’ game is here. …….

    Well, McCarthy did authorize (without a vote, like he promised) an impeachment investigation of President Biden.

    Payback is a b!tch.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  37. JVW (1ad43e) — 10/3/2023 @ 12:54 pm

    I don’t know how you think I had “convicted” Gaetz of anything. I was only being factual.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  38. Not at all. I agree it was probably mishandled by the DOJ, but the House Ethics Committee is still investigating him.

    As wretched as the DOJ is, I would imagine that the House Ethics Committee staff is even worse. But perhaps I will be surprised.

    JVW (1ad43e)

  39. I don’t know how you think I had “convicted” Gaetz of anything. I was only being factual.

    I interpreted your “LOL” to be applied to Kevin M’s pointing out that Gaetz had been cleared from prosecution, and thought you were insinuating that this development was meaningless.

    JVW (1ad43e)

  40. Apparently the HEC is looking at more than just the sex trafficking allegations, but also bribery, campaign finance violations, and drugs. I have no idea if any of them are true.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  41. I interpreted your “LOL” to be applied to Kevin M’s pointing out that Gaetz had been cleared from prosecution, and thought you were insinuating that this development was meaningless.

    JVW (1ad43e) — 10/3/2023 @ 1:12 pm

    It referred to Kevin M’s post about expelling the House Freedom Caucus members and demanding they form their own political party.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  42. they’re the unofficial leadership.

    Despite only commanding 11 votes. Talk about wishcasting.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/3/2023 @ 12:04 pm

    LOL! That is a controlling number when the Republican majority is five.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  43. JVW (1ad43e) — 10/3/2023 @ 1:12 pm

    I can see why you where confused.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  44. It referred to Kevin M’s post about expelling the House Freedom Caucus members and demanding they form their own political party.

    That’s a compelling idea. I used to scoff at European democracies who have a half-dozen political parties represented in their legislative bodies and need to form weird governing coalitions, but now I’m beginning to see the (limited) wisdom in it. If I knew for certain that the Democrat Socialists would form their own little separate junto in response then I would be all for it.

    JVW (1ad43e)

  45. Because people like Gaetz won’t take 80% of what they want as a victory; they are demanding 100% in a legislative body that has a very slim operating margin for the majority.

    McCarthy made the promises about regular order, separate appropriation bills, 72 hours to read legislation, vote on impeachment, etc. during the speaker fight.

    Gaetz is just trying to hold McCarthy to his promises.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  46. Not sure what Jeffries’ game is here…….. the few who do (remember) will wonder why Jeffries let it happen when a shutdown looms again.

    And the Republicans will still be in the majority in 45 days. That’s what voters will remember.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  47. Two people not voting: Nancy Pelosi (she’s at Dianne Feinstein’s funeral -and maybe that’s why Kevin McCarthy accelerated the vote) and a Republican Congresswoman who’s just given birth.

    https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/house/pelosi-skips-vote-boot-mccarthy-feinstein-funeral

    A spokesman for the former speaker said Pelosi was “saddened” to miss the vote but was honoring Feinstein’s legacy.

    “The Speaker of the House is chosen by the Majority Party,” Pelosi said in a post to X, the social media platform formerly known as Twitter. “In this Congress, it is the responsibility of House Republicans to choose a nominee & elect the Speaker on the Floor. At this time there is no justification for a departure from this tradition. The House will be in order.”

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  48. Gaetz is just trying to hold McCarthy to his promises.

    I get that. My point is that Gaetz and the Freedom Caucus ought to be getting together and hammering out an agenda which comes as close as possible to meeting all of those criteria while still uniting the House Majority. And that is going to require HFC members to make some concessions. So yeah, we aren’t going to be able to get full rescission on the unspent funds from the Biden/Pelosi spending orgy of 2021-22, and we probably aren’t going to get anything beyond formal House investigations of the perfidy of Biden Administration officials. But the goal here should be to narrowly pass spending bills which the Democrat leadership in Senate doesn’t like, and see if Chuck Schumer can keep Joe Manchin and Kristen Sinema (Jon Tester too) on board.

    That is what I mean with respect to the HFC shooting for 80% rather than 100%.

    JVW (1ad43e)

  49. Not sure what Jeffries’ game is here… Maybe the 2024 election , hoping chaos will cause a few Republican Congressmen lose their seats.

    Or he’s just frozen in place.

    Or he doesn’t want to cross the aisle on organizational matters, unless he really gets something.

    Afraid that in some way it will create a precedent for interparty coalitions?

    If somebody comes up with the right answer, we’ll recognize its truth.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  50. Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 10/3/2023 @ 1:40 pm

    McCarthy said he didn’t want Democratic votes to retain the Speakership, and Jeffries is accommodating him.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  51. Some Republicans want to expel Congressman Jamaal Bowman for pulling a fire alarm on Saturday.

    They argue he did the same thing as the people who on January 6,2021 burst into the Capitol – interrupted a proceeding of Congress. (but did he? It was in another building.)

    He not only disavowed doing it intentionally, he also disavowed responsibility for some of the message he circulated to other Democrats.

    https://www.foxnews.com/media/rep-bowman-mocked-statement-condemning-nazi-fire-alarm-messaging-guidance-own-office

    The progressive congressman pulled the fire alarm on Saturday as lawmakers were scrambling to pass a stopgap bill that would avert a government shutdown.

    Bowman’s office circulated a memo to his Democratic colleagues on Monday, urging them to defend him publicly with suggested arguments as Republicans continue to demand his expulsion from Congress over the incident. One proposed talking point in the memo, titled “Messaging Guidance: Supporting Congressman Jamaal Bowman After Accidental Fire Alarm,” targeted “Nazi members” of the GOP.

    Bowman eventually condemned the messaging guidance that referred to “Nazi members” of the GOP.

    “I just became aware that in our messaging guidance, there was inappropriate use of the term Nazi without my consent,” he wrote. “I condemn the use of the term Nazi out of its precise definition. It is important to specify the term Nazi to refer to members of the Nazi party & neo-Nazis.”

    Republican lawmakers and members of the media criticized Bowman’s statement on X, formerly known as Twitter.

    Rep. Nancy Mace, R-S.C., said it was “terrifying” that Bowman was “ever a school principal.”…

    School principals know something about peple pulling fire alarms.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  52. McCarthy has been removed as speaker, but I suspect he plans to get re-elected again.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  53. Well. McCarthy is out. Rep. McHenry of North Carolina is the speaker pro tempore until a vote for a new speaker takes place.

    Dana (aae136)

  54. https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/10/03/us/mccarthy-gaetz-speaker-news

    Oct. 3, 2023, 4:50 p.m. ET1 minute ago
    1 minute ago
    Catie Edmondson

    The interim speaker, Patrick McHenry, recessed the House so both parties can find a path forward. The House floor will be paralyzed until a new speaker is elected.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  55. Even Matt Gaetz waited until after the continuing resolution passed – but maybe that was because he feared if he tried it before, he would lose the vote.

    He had suggested Steve Scalise as his candidate with the caveat that he didn’t really want to mention him yet because Scalise has cancer. Maybe he jut threw out his name so that he would have an excuse for not having any other alternative.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  56. McCarthy has been removed as speaker, but I suspect he plans to get re-elected again.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 10/3/2023 @ 1:50 pm

    With whose votes? Certainly not from the Democrats, and I’m sure after this fiasco there are at least five who won’t.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  57. Let me see if I understand this: 208 Democrats and only 8 Republicans voted in favor of Gaetz’s motion to “vacate the chair” i.e oust McCarthy. 210 Republicans voted against firing McCarthy. Is that correct?

    nk (568ed0)

  58. This tells us everything we need to know. And it’s not good. Not at all:

    Matt Gaetz: “My conversations with the former president leave me with great confidence that I’m doing the right thing.”

    Dana (aae136)

  59. It should be pointed out that Gaetz is personally hated by just about everyone in Congress. The man is a total asshat and everyone knows it.

    Newt Gingrich: Republicans must expel Matt Gaetz

    Rep. Matt Gaetz (R-Fla.) is an anti-Republican who has become actively destructive to the conservative movement.

    Drama has filled the halls of Congress for 234 years. Bringing together a group of 435 strong-willed personalities guarantees conflict, and it has always been a tumultuous body. But some behavior crosses the line — and when it does, there has to be consequences.

    Gaetz obviously hates House Speaker Kevin McCarthy (R-Calif.) — and that’s fine. If Gaetz were simply a loudmouthed junior member who attacked McCarthy every day, that would be fine, too. He would just be isolated with a small group of lawmakers who can’t figure out how to get things done. They’d huddle together seeking warmth and reassurance from their fellow incompetents.

    But Gaetz has gone beyond regular drama. He is destroying the House GOP’s ability to govern and draw a sharp contrast with the policy disasters of the Biden administration.

    Former House speaker Nancy Pelosi (Calif.), a liberal Democrat with whom I disagree on almost everything, perfectly captured Gaetz’s childish behavior in an interview with CNN’s Jake Tapper on Sunday. Gaetz “has no sway” or influence in Congress, Pelosi said, “except to get on TV and to raise money on the internet.” Pelosi told Tapper he was “wasting [his] time on that guy.”

    This from the most famous bomb-thrower of recent GOP history, and a convert to Trumpiness.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  60. LOL! That is a controlling number when the Republican majority is five.

    No, it’s a blocking number. He controls nothing but the brake pedal. And when push comes to shove (e.g. the shutdown) he doesn’t even control that. Now he’s throwing a tantrum. Drop him from every committee and see how many votes he gets next time.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  61. Hell. Gaetz doesn’t even control McCarthy (who told him to stick it) and that’s a very low bar. When McCarthy is reinstated as Speaker, Gaetz will be have a window seat and his district won’t get a thing, not even a dogsh1t museum.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  62. It referred to Kevin M’s post about expelling the House Freedom Caucus members and demanding they form their own political party.

    Sometimes it’s better to have them inside pissing out, than outside pissing in. But Gaetz and his gaggle are inside, pissing in. That’s a problem.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  63. Some Republicans want to expel Congressman Jamaal Bowman for pulling a fire alarm on Saturday.

    He may be charged by the Capitol police, in a fit of even-handedness. My sense is that it deserves some response, lest it be repeated. Maybe just a formal censure.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  64. X, formerly known as Twitter

    Musk should change its name again. Maybe twice.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  65. his district won’t get a thing, not even a dogsh1t museum.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/3/2023 @ 2:13 pm

    I’m puzzled. Is a dogsh1t museum a minor museum of some sort, or a museum actually devoted to dogsh1t?

    norcal (af48ee)

  66. The following “Republicans” voted to oust McCarthy: Andy Biggs (AZ), Ken Buck (CO), Tim Burchett (TN), Eli Crane (AZ), Matt Gaetz (FL), Bob Good (VA), Nancy Mace (SC), Matt Rosendale (MT)

    3 Republicans and 4 Democrats did not vote.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  67. Make a bargain with the devil for power. Time to pay up! Let the games begin! AOC for speaker.

    asset (f8334b)

  68. I’m puzzled. Is a dogsh1t museum a minor museum of some sort, or a museum actually devoted to dogsh1t?

    I intended the latter.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  69. Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/3/2023 @ 2:09 pm

    Only from the Republican Caucus, not the House itself; that last sentence is a real hoot.

    Gaetz’s motion to remove McCarthy should have been swiftly defeated, but it wasn’t; he should still be expelled from the House Republican Conference. House Republicans have far more important things to do than entertain one member’s ego.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  70. So… if my math is right…

    Eight GOPers and all of the Democrats who could vote ousted McCarthy.

    Democrats aren’t blameless here.

    But, ho’lee mo’ley, what does it say about McCarthy/Republican caucus who couldn’t negotiate with those 8 GOPers?

    whembly (5f7596)

  71. I wonder what the betting odds are on the new speaker?

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  72. But, ho’lee mo’ley, what does it say about McCarthy/Republican caucus who couldn’t negotiate with those 8 GOPers?

    Their negotiation was “Give in and be our puppet” and even McCarthy had too much spine for that. Not to mention that some of the 208 who voted for him would not accept Gaetz’s demands.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  73. When McCarthy is reinstated as Speaker…….

    Again, with whose votes? Not the Democrats (they have no incentive to vote for a Speaker who initiated an impeachment process against the President, and McCarthy doesn’t want their votes) and if the seven who voted against McCarthy flip and then vote for him to be Speaker, they will need to explain why they put the Republican caucus through this fiasco.

    Comedy Gold!

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  74. Some Republicans want to expel Congressman Jamaal Bowman for pulling a fire alarm on Saturday.

    Prediction: If he is expelled, he will run in the special election and win.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  75. I will, of course, defer to Newt Gingrich on the GOP Caucus Rules and nearly any tactical matter involving the House.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  76. Prediction: If he is expelled, he will run in the special election and win.

    Not the point. If this is allowed without significant penalty, it will become a common tactic.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  77. Democrats aren’t blameless here.

    Actually, they are. McCarthy said he didn’t want their support, and the Democrats obliged.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  78. McCarthy’s best tactic: Block anyone else from becoming Speaker until some votes change. R or D. Doesn’t matter. Then expel Gaetz.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  79. Actually, they are. McCarthy said he didn’t want their support, and the Democrats obliged.

    He did not say that. He said that he would not seek their votes and would not offer them incentives. That not the same as “didn’t want their support.”

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  80. I will, of course, defer to Newt Gingrich on the GOP Caucus Rules and nearly any tactical matter involving the House.

    Still not gonna happen, for the same reasons that MTG, Boebert, etc. won’t be expelled either from the GOP Caucus or the House itself.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  81. Jeffries made it a party discipline vote and no one defied him. He may relent, or some centrist Dems may decide enough is enough.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  82. He did not say that. He said that he would not seek their votes and would not offer them incentives. That not the same as “didn’t want their support.”

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/3/2023 @ 2:41 pm

    One comes with the other.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  83. Trump will tell them who needs to be speaker. And they will all agree. Gaetz probably got approval from the Big Guy before he acted.

    Appalled (5b5fc7)

  84. Gaetz probably got approval from the Big Guy before he acted.

    Appalled (5b5fc7) — 10/3/2023 @ 2:44 pm

    It’s a grifting MLM. Gaetz is in Trump’s downline.

    norcal (af48ee)

  85. Jeffries made it a party discipline vote and no one defied him. He may relent, or some centrist Dems may decide enough is enough.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/3/2023 @ 2:43 pm

    LOL!

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  86. McCarthy trusted the leftists to pass their agenda against the will of the conservative block and then they turned around and stabbed him in the back.

    It’s fitting.

    NJRob (5f2e2d)

  87. The only way Jeffries relents is if the Democrats get some concessions (50/50 split on committees, subpoena power, etc.) MAGAWorld will be furious with any Republican who becomes speaker with Democratic support. And it will spillover into the Republican presidential primary, forcing the candidates to take sides.

    Not gonna happen.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  88. Not Quite The Record, But Close:

    Republican Rep. Kevin McCarthy served as House speaker for 269 days before being removed by a majority vote on Tuesday.
    ………
    The record for the shortest term is held by Rep. Michael C. Kerr of Indiana, who served as speaker for 257 days.

    Kerr died in office of consumption on August 19, 1876.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  89. 83.I think this all happened without Trump (although perhaps with some semi-associate) and Trump decided it was a good idea for him to endorse it.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  90. Trump wants to destroy America. Even a couple of picayunes like McCarthy and Gaetz are termites in the joists.

    nk (847e28)

  91. @86: I believe McCarthy did the backstabbing by going on Sunday news shows and attacking Democrats regarding the weekend’s CR – which they helped him get enacted.

    If anything, the Democrats did a front-stabbing.

    Sam G (8d2ed1)

  92. McCarthy made a deal with Biden regarding the budget and then tried to welch on it. It’s not surprising the Dems decided not to rescue him.

    Nic (896fdf)

  93. The only way Jeffries relents is if the Democrats get some concessions (50/50 split on committees, subpoena power, etc.)

    If we are still here in November, all bets are off.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  94. McCarthy made a deal with Biden regarding the budget and then tried to welch on it. It’s not surprising the Dems decided not to rescue him.

    This would rely on Biden’s memory and veracity. I think it’s he said, he said.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  95. So, McCarthy says he will not run again. Don’t blame him. Maybe if Gaetz comes to him and begs on his knees, but otherwise? Not a chance.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  96. McCarthy made a deal with Biden regarding the budget and then tried to welch on it. It’s not surprising the Dems decided not to rescue him.

    This would rely on Biden’s memory and veracity. I think it’s he said, he said.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/3/2023 @ 4:34 pm

    No, it’s outlined in the debt ceiling bill.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  97. @Kevin@94 I think the hes were both saying the same thing so it was more of a he said and he said, though given McCarthy’s apparent desire to tell people what they want to hear and not what he plans to do, that may not be trustworthy either.

    Nic (896fdf)

  98. Mccarthy out good riddance! His craven grab for power deserved no better outcome. Only republican corporate donor class lost.

    asset (9fcacb)

  99. The only way Jeffries relents is if the Democrats get some concessions (50/50 split on committees, subpoena power, etc.)

    If we are still here in November, all bets are off.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/3/2023 @ 4:32 pm

    Meaning what?

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  100. McCarthy’s best tactic: Block anyone else from becoming Speaker until some votes change. R or D. Doesn’t matter. Then expel Gaetz.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/3/2023 @ 2:40 pm

    LOL!

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  101. Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/3/2023 @ 2:40 pm

    How could Congressman McCarthy block anyone else from becoming Speaker, and why would he do it? As far as expelling Gaetz, MTG, etc. that’s unlikely to happen, since they have the backing of the Big Guy.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  102. Comedy Gold!

    Former President Donald Trump slammed Republican infighting Tuesday as some House Republicans banded with Democrats to oust Rep. Kevin McCarthy (R-CA) from the speakership.

    Ahead of the vote to oust McCarthy, Trump posted on Truth Social, saying that Republicans should focus on fighting the “Radical Left Democrats who are destroying our Country.”

    “Why is it that Republicans are always fighting among themselves, why aren’t they fighting the Radical Left Democrats who are destroying our Country?” Trump posted.
    ……….

    The lack of self-awareness by Trump is hilarious, since he egged on Gaetz and others to shutdown the government.

    “The Republicans lost big on Debt Ceiling, got NOTHING, and now are worried that they will be BLAMED for the Budget Shutdown. Wrong!!! Whoever is President will be blamed,” Trump wrote, adding: “UNLESS YOU GET EVERYTHING, SHUT IT DOWN! Close the Border, stop the Weaponization of ‘Justice,’ and End Election Interference.”

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  103. How could Congressman McCarthy block anyone else from becoming Speaker,

    Mostly by doing nothing.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  104. The lack of self-awareness by Trump is typical.

    FIFY. It’s like his golf card.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  105. How could Congressman McCarthy block anyone else from becoming Speaker,

    Mostly by doing nothing.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/3/2023 @ 5:24 pm

    Which describes his tenure as Speaker. Now he’s just one of 221, even less so since he is not on any committees.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  106. Which describes his tenure as Speaker. Now he’s just one of 221, even less so since he is not on any committees.

    Right at the moment, there are no committees.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  107. Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/3/2023 @ 5:36 pm

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/3/2023 @ 5:37 pm

    That article (dated January 2023) describes what happens at the beginning of a new two year session, not when a Speaker is replaced mid-session. When John Boehner resigned, the House continued to operate as it had the day before. Votes will still be taken and committee hearings will continue.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  108. Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 10/3/2023 @ 5:50 pm

    The Speaker Pro Tempore only has only limited authority, but there is no indication that committees are dissolved:

    The Office of Speaker may be declared vacant by resolution, which may be offered as a matter of privilege. Under rule I clause 8(b)(3), adopted in the 108th Congress, the Speaker is required to deliver to the Clerk a list of Members in the order in which each shall act as Speaker pro tempore in the case of a vacancy in the Office of Speaker. The Member acting as Speaker pro tempore under this provision may exercise such authorities of the Office of Speaker as may be necessary and appropriate pending the election of a Speaker or Speaker pro tempore. …….

    Citations omitted.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  109. Another piece of the Trump fall out. Republicans did not do as well as predicted in the midterms and that left the power in the hands of Gaetz and his 7 buddies.
    I wonder how many election cycles we need before the system is purged

    steveg (ddc4f1)

  110. Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 10/3/2023 @ 5:50 pm

    Votes will still be taken and committee hearings will continue.

    The House will meet again next Tuesday and try to elect a Speaker on Wednesday after that. I thought Kevin McCarthy didn’t want this threat, but I thought he was hoping that he could recover – because that’s what happened the first time. The House Republican conference will pick a candidate for Speaker, McCarthy has not given thought to whom if anyone he will endoorse – he doesn’t know the candidates yet,

    Sammy Finkelman (3d8091)

  111. @110 Your problem is far more democrats (like me) agree we need to reform then do republicans. Gerrymandered districts make primaries more important then general election allowing extremists to do well. Also minority districts sounds great ;but actually hurt democrats making it harder to vote out corrupt politicians.

    asset (9fcacb)

  112. McCarthy has not given thought to whom if anyone he will endoorse – he doesn’t know the candidates yet

    LOL! The kiss of death.

    Rip Murdock (01115c)

  113. Comedy Gold!

    ………..
    “The only candidate for Speaker I am currently supporting is President Donald J. Trump,” (Marjorie Taylor Greene), the Georgia Republican wrote on X.
    ………….
    “We can make him Speaker and then elect him President!” she said.
    ………….
    The problem with Greene’s suggestion is that House Republican Conference rules require elected party leaders who are indicted on felony charges carrying a potential sentence of two or more years imprisonment to step aside.
    …………
    But conservatives on social media began talking about Trump as a potential speaker candidate after Fox News host Sean Hannity reported on his show Tuesday night that sources are telling him some House Republicans are trying to draft Trump for the job.

    “I have been told President Trump might be open to helping the Republican Party, at least in the short term, if necessary,” Hannity said.
    ………….

    I’m sure that if enough Republicans wanted Trump to be Speaker they would get rid of that pesky rule about their leaders not being under indictment, since technically Trump as Speaker wouldn’t be a member of the Republican Conference.

    Rip Murdock (6afd61)

  114. That article (dated January 2023)

    Damn Google

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  115. McCarthy has not given thought to whom if anyone he will endoorse – he doesn’t know the candidates yet

    I think he will stay out of it. This is Gaetz’s show now and leaving him twisting in the wind is the best play.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  116. The problem with Greene’s suggestion is that House Republican Conference rules require elected party leaders who are indicted on felony charges carrying a potential sentence of two or more years imprisonment to step aside.

    They also require the Conference to approve a motion to vacate and that rule was never changed. We are playing Calvinball now.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  117. I said early this year that Liz Cheney would be an excellent Speaker, and I’m still good with that.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  118. Too soon?

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  119. From #114:

    “I have been told President Trump might be open to helping the Republican Party, at least in the short term, if necessary,” Hannity said.

    Well, miracles happen, but the Loser’s record suggests this one is unlikely.

    Jim Miller (35fe09)

  120. I think the questions the House Republicans need to address seriously and squarely, and make the hard decisions and live with them, is whether they will go as whiteface, tramp, jester, rodeo, or jester, and the color of their wigs. Red, orange, green, magenta …?

    nk (f69f22)

  121. Trump won’t take the job. He puts himself at risk of losing and, besides, all the court dates and campaigning will take up his time.

    I think he will, eventually, tell folks who he will accept. (It won’t be Scalese. He’s ill and Trump is scared of physical weakness.)

    Appalled (90bd96)

  122. Jim Jordan is running for Speaker.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  123. Comedy Gold!:

    The ouster of Representative Kevin McCarthy as House speaker on Tuesday exposed sharp divisions among the Republican presidential field, with at least one candidate saying that the power move by right-wing caucus members had been warranted — but others bemoaned the turmoil, and some stayed silent.
    ………
    “My advice to the people who voted to remove him is own it. Admit it,” (Vivek Ramaswamy) said in a video posted on X, the platform formerly known as Twitter, on Tuesday. “There was no better plan of action of who’s going to fill that speaker role. So was the point to sow chaos? Yes, it was. But the real question to ask, to get to the bottom of it, is whether chaos is really such a bad thing?”
    ………
    “Once in a while, a little chaos isn’t such a bad thing,” he said. “Just ask our founding fathers. That’s what this country is founded on, and I’m not going to apologize for it.”

    Former Vice President Mike Pence, who is now running against his former boss for the party’s nomination, lamented the revolt against Mr. McCarthy. Speaking at Georgetown University on Tuesday, he said that he was disappointed by the outcome.

    “Well, let me say that chaos is never America’s friend,” Mr. Pence, a former House member, said.
    ……..
    Gov. Ron DeSantis of Florida questioned the motivations of Representative Matt Gaetz, a fellow Floridian who is Mr. McCarthy’s top antagonist in the House. …….

    Senator Tim Scott of South Carolina also criticized Mr. Gaetz on Tuesday, telling Forbes that his overall approach did “a lot of damage.” ……..

    And former Gov. Chris Christie of New Jersey chimed in Wednesday morning, denouncing the hard-right rebels and expressing concern about the electoral implications. In an appearance on CNBC, he said their actions had given voters “more of a concern about our party being a governing party, and that’s bad for all of us running for president right now.”
    ……….
    Nikki Haley, the former South Carolina governor and former United Nations ambassador who has been rising in some polls, appeared to keep silent…….
    ###########

    Darling Nikki, finger forever in the wind……

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  124. I think the understated “inside baseball” here is this.

    The Democrats voted lock-step to help Gaetz’s motion to vacate.

    Right before the vote, McCarthy literally went to the Dems and asked them for help to NOT help Gaetz… now why or why not would the Dems do that?

    It did look like, at the time, McCarthy was going to re-run for the Speakership.

    I think McCarthy declining to re-run for it after the ouster was a surprise to Democrats.

    I think the initial rationale Democrats ignored McCarthy and sided with Gaetz, was that they believed McCarthy would run again and come open-handed asking for Democrat’s support for some major concession.

    It remains to be seen if the GOP caucus can get the you-know-what together… but that’s my initial assessment.

    whembly (5f7596)

  125. Right before the vote, McCarthy literally went to the Dems and asked them for help to NOT help Gaetz… now why or why not would the Dems do that?

    LOL! Then again, why would Democrats help McCarthy? He authorized an impeachment investigation into the President and he tried to blame the Democrats for the government shutdown. And the Democrats already did McCarthy a favor-by supporting the continuing resolution. Since McCarthy wouldn’t offer any concessions to the Democrats, what was in it for them?

    Payback is a b!tch.

    I think McCarthy declining to re-run for it after the ouster was a surprise to Democrats.

    I think the initial rationale Democrats ignored McCarthy and sided with Gaetz, was that they believed McCarthy would run again and come open-handed asking for Democrat’s support for some major concession.

    Pure speculation. Any Republican winning the speakership with Democratic votes is just begging to be “vacated”.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  126. So much for Trump becoming Speaker. Per Rule 26 of the House Conference Rules…

    (a) A member of the Republican Leadership shall step aside if indicted for a felony for which a sentence of two or more years imprisonment may be imposed.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  127. Paul Montagu (d52d7d) — 10/4/2023 @ 11:28 am

    If enough members want Trump to be Speaker, the rule would be waived. And technically he would not be a member of the Republican Conference, as he isn’t a member of Congress. Comedy Gold!

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  128. The Speaker is defined as part of “Republican leadership” under Rule 2, Rip.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  129. The Speaker is defined as part of “Republican leadership” under Rule 2, Rip.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d) — 10/4/2023 @ 11:49 am

    That’s an interesting question if the Speaker is not an elected representative, but the Conference could still change the rules. It’s a moot point anyway, since Trump is tied up with his trials.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  130. Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 10/4/2023 @ 11:26 am

    . Any Republican winning the speakership with Democratic votes is just begging to be “vacated”.

    The same majority that elected him could also vote to keep him.

    But there wouldn’t be the same majority if it depended on absences. So it would need to have a margin of a dozen or more votes. And they xould “whip” people who proposed such a motion.

    Kevin McCAathy gave the MAGA Freedom caucus nothing except not including aid to Ukraine in the continuing resolution last Saturday, because he figured it could pass in a separate bill, with a slightly different vote composition.

    He was confident on Tuesday morning that he would win the vote. He thought Goetz’s opposition was personal, because he would not shut down an ethics investigation of Goetz, but you know this really could have been about Ukraine aid (and corruption?)

    Sammy FInkelman (7a85f9)

  131. The temporary Speaker was picked automatically, because, since the aftermath of September 11, 2001 attacks, the Speaker has prepared a list of replacement speakers in case the speakership became vacant, and Patrick McHenry was at the head of the list.

    He has no power except to recess, adjourn, and possibly convene the House in accordance with a motion to adjourn, and to preside over supervise the election of the Speaker.

    Sammy FInkelman (7a85f9)

  132. The other thing Patrick McHenry did was to demand that Nancy Pelosi vacate her office. Kevin McCarthy had given her one, going along with the precedent of David Hastert, who was given a special office by Nancy Pelosi in 2007. At that time nobody knew of Dennis Hastert’s possible sex abuse of wrestlers.

    Sammy FInkelman (7a85f9)

  133. The other thing Patrick McHenry did was to demand that Nancy Pelosi vacate her office. Kevin McCarthy had given her one, going along with the precedent of David Hastert, who was given a special office by Nancy Pelosi in 2007. At that time nobody knew of Dennis Hastert’s possible sex abuse of wrestlers.

    One of which has nothing to do with the other.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  134. A random thought.
    It’s true that it’s not up to the Dems to save the Republicans from themselves, but I don’t see how McCarthy’s removal (and having Gaetz win) helps the Dems.

    The Dems could’ve voted “present”, which would make Gaetz a marginalized backbencher where he belongs.

    Instead, we’re faced with a couple of even more hardline Trumpists for Speaker in Jordan or Scalise, and the chances of aid to Ukraine and other negotiated deals are lessened with them in charge. I think Jeffries made a huge strategic mistake.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  135. The office that Pelosi is vacating is for the most recent ex-Speaker, which is now McCarthy.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  136. I am reading that Pelosi had long-since promised that the Democrats would block any vacate resolution, and McCarthy had relied on that when he made his one-member vacate promise to the HFC. But Lucy pulled the football back, as usual.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  137. @136 Jefferies doesn’t have the clout that pelosi had and now she doesn’t either. She is running again to keep the seat for a corporate establishment DNC stooge and keep a young AOC from taking it. The DNC/pelosi are afraid of the squad not republicans.

    asset (c6b5c7)

  138. Leftists like Pelosi and her ilk, and that includes the entire House as seen by their votes, are the scorpion on the back of the frog. They don’t care if they suffer for their decisions, they just want you to suffer first.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  139. @138

    I am reading that Pelosi had long-since promised that the Democrats would block any vacate resolution, and McCarthy had relied on that when he made his one-member vacate promise to the HFC. But Lucy pulled the football back, as usual.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 10/4/2023 @ 10:11 pm

    Now that explains why Pelosi is kicked out of her office. It’s supposed to the the former House Speaker’s office.

    McCarthy is now the former House Speaker, and yes, this seems very petty but, very deserved.

    whembly (5f7596)

  140. @136

    Aid for Ukraine can easily be passed no matter who is Speaker: all that’s needed is for a handful of GOP House members to join with Democrats to file a discharge petition, then vote to approve aid.

    I wouldn’t hold my breath that there are any GOP members that would do so, which will show that the GOP views Ukraine as a hostage for other purposes.

    Sam G (8d2ed1)

  141. Pelosi may have promised McCarthy (what evidence?), but she’s no longer speaker and certainly not the minority leader.

    Rip Murdock (6afd61)

  142. I am reading that Pelosi had long-since promised that the Democrats would block any vacate resolution……

    Too bad he didn’t get it in writing.

    Rip Murdock (6afd61)

  143. The New York Times, in one article, says this:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/04/us/politics/pelosi-hideaway-office-capitol.html

    ….Mr. McCarthy said on Tuesday that Ms. Pelosi had months ago vowed to him, “I’ll always back you up” if there was ever an effort to oust him. Mr. McHenry had received similar assurances from Mr. Hoyer, the person familiar with the situation said, which a spokesperson for Mr. Hoyer did not dispute when asked to comment. In the end, Mr. Hoyer sided with his fellow Democrats, while Ms. Pelosi skipped the vote to return to California for Ms. Feinstein’s funeral.

    Ms. Pelosi has not disputed Mr. McCarthy’s account of her earlier pledge to back him, but it is not surprising that she left him to twist in the wind. She has openly disdained Mr. McCarthy, and she and other prominent Democrats, including Representative Hakeem Jeffries of New York, the minority leader, have frequently criticized what they call Mr. McCarthy’s coddling of former President Donald J. Trump.

    Nancy Pelosi had a extra cubbyhole office in the Capitol, where there is asort of tradition of letting former Speakers (if still a member of Congress) have then. Nancy Pelosi said late Tuesday that she had been kicked out of the space by Representative Patrick T. McHenry, and the same thing is in another New York Times article, but this one says it was the House Administration Committee,(which is consistent with the temporary Speaker having very limited powers, but existing committees allowed to function) but it adds that the “decision to evict Ms. Pelosi had in fact been made by Mr. McCarthy on his way out of the door.” Perhaps Kevin McCarthy wanted the office for himself, and since he’s now become the last previous Speaker he felt he was entitled to it.

    Members of the House leadership get these small offices, and the Speaker can dole out a few. Nancy Pelosi gave one to Liz Cheney after she lost her Republican leadership position. (the NYT says that she “had joined the House Jan. 6 committee as its vice chairwoman and was receiving death threats.”

    A

    Sammy FInkelman (c5132f)

  144. Sammy FInkelman (c5132f) — 10/5/2023 @ 12:50 pm

    McCarthy’s statement may or may not be true (he’s gone back on many of his promises), but again, Pelosi is now a backbencher just like McCarthy. Since then, McCarthy started an impeachment process against a Democratic President, so she would probably consider her commitment null and void.

    The question for McCarthy is, what did he concede in exchange for the alleged promise?

    Rip Murdock (6afd61)

  145. Rip, do you ever tire of making excuses for leftists?

    NJRob (55af4a)

  146. Just like the so-called “Problem Solvers” caucus was nothing more than to stymie Republican objectives and give leftists the illusion of bipartisanship, when it came time for their bipartisan bonifides to count, the leftists voted with the radical leftists.

    There is no such thing as a moderate Democrat. Period.

    NJRob (55af4a)

  147. Rip, do you ever tire of making excuses for leftists?

    NJRob (55af4a) — 10/5/2023 @ 1:13 pm

    I have no idea what you mean. There is no evidence of a Pelosi pledge, outside of McCarthy’s self-serving statements, and even if she did so, she probably wouldn’t have made it without some concessions on McCarthy’s part. The fact that McCarthy initiated an impeachment inquiry of Biden (among other things) belies any idea that Pelosi would protect McCarthy now.

    “A verbal agreement isn’t worth the paper it’s printed on,”-Sam Goldwyn.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  148. Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 10/5/2023 @ 2:12 pm

    There is no evidence of a Pelosi pledge, outside of McCarthy’s self-serving statements,

    She didn’t deny it according to the New Yor Times. Although it is not clear what she agreed was true.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/04/us/politics/pelosi-hideaway-office-capitol.html

    .Mr. McCarthy said on Tuesday that Ms. Pelosi had months ago vowed to him, “I’ll always back you up” if there was ever an effort to oust him….Ms. Pelosi has not disputed Mr. McCarthy’s account of her earlier pledge to back him…

    and even if she did so, she probably wouldn’t have made it without some concessions on McCarthy’s part.

    Or perhaps the pledge was limited to a challenge that came from a certain corner.

    Sammy Finkelman (c5132f)

  149. “Blaming Democrats for the problems in the GOP is not only a pathetic dodge of responsibility, but more importantly, it keeps Republicans from actually solving the problem. Easy to blame your political opponents. Harder to look inward and do the necessary work to change.”

    Sam G (8d2ed1)

  150. Sammy Finkelman (c5132f) — 10/5/2023 @ 2:24 pm

    Too bad that Pelosi is no longer in the Democrat leadership.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  151. Sam G (8d2ed1) — 10/5/2023 @ 2:39 pm

    Truer words have never been spoken. And:

    “The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars / But in ourselves…..”
    (Julius Caesar, Act I, Scene III, L. 140-141)

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)


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