Patterico's Pontifications

8/14/2023

Trump and 18 Others Indicted in Georgia

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 9:09 pm



You can read and download the indictment here.

I am still making my way through it. I may have more to say later.

49 Responses to “Trump and 18 Others Indicted in Georgia”

  1. Comment on today’s indictment here.

    Patterico (bbad03)

  2. The fox coverage of this is so weird. Not for fox news, but for, like, reality. They don’t have any legal experts coming on, just fox reporters and politicians and opinionators.

    Nic (896fdf)

  3. Of course, nic. They want their followers to believe it’s about politics and not law.

    aphrael (e4e55b)

  4. Holy sh1t. I’ve talked before about prosecutors overcharging.

    This is NOT that.

    This is a litany of a crime spree committed in GA, and one must believe that the same went on in PA, AZ, MI and other contested states as well.

    To call this RICO is an understatement. What were they thinking? Why did they think this would work? All along I thought the GA case was a lesser attempt, piling on if you will. It’s not. It is a detailed indictment of a pattern of behavior that shows a willingness to steal an election outright by whatever means necessary.

    Lock ’em up.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  5. It will be interesting to see who pleads out. I expect that some of these folks will turn on the others like cobras in a sack.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  6. My favorite indictee is Sidney Powell-release the Kraken! She will probably flip.

    Trump is going to need to raise a lot more money if he continues to cover the legal expenses of those who have been indicted on his behalf. I bet that policy stops real soon.

    Rip Murdock (dbaf46)

  7. If you want to know how FoxNews is handling this, Hannity had convicted criminal and un-American d0uchebag Paul Manafort on his show. This is an unserious entertainment network.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  8. The indictment Introduction says it plain…

    Defendant Donald John Trump lost the United States presidential election held on November 3, 2020. One of the states he lost was Georgia. Trump and the other Defendants charged in this Indictment refused to accept that Trump lost, and they knowingly and willfully joined a conspiracy to unlawfully change the outcome of the election in favor of Trump. That conspiracy contained a common plan and purpose to commit two or more acts of racketeering activity in Fulton County, Georgia, elsewhere in the State of Georgia, and in other states.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  9. Here’s an indication that Trump was “knowingly” about the electoral result. Act 1 of the GA indictment…

    On or about the 4th day of November 2020, DONALD JOHN TRUMP made a
    nationally televised speech falsely declaring victory in the 2020 presidential election. Approximately four days earlier, on or about October 31, 2020, DONALD JOHN TRUMP discussed a draft speech with unindicted co-conspirator Individual 1, whose identity is known to the Grand Jury, that falsely declared victory and falsely claimed voter fraud. The speech was an overt act in furtherance of the conspiracy.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  10. Having read the indictment, it looks very thoroughly investigated and they seem to have followed a rather large number of investigatory threads to weave the whole thing together. They appear to have a metric ton of witnesses, voice mail records, text records, email records, and possibly video. I am not surprised it took 2.5 years to collect everything together. I am not a lawyer, so I can’t speak to the standards of proof of the various charges, but there appears to be a lot of evidence. I don’t think “Nuh uh. They all just hate me.” is going to work as a defense.

    Nic (896fdf)

  11. This is an unserious entertainment network.

    The word you seek is “propaganda.” Sadly, it’s catching. I expect that MSNBC is just as bad, save that Trump gives them so much true poo to fling.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  12. The GA case is damning in the extreme, assuming they have the goods.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  13. white jury hung or not guilty. Black jury guilty. Then republicans on the supreme court will decide.

    asset (486251)

  14. Wait, so anyone who drafts a winning speech that eventually loses is guilty of conspiracy?!?

    SaveFarris (0a014b)

  15. Wait, so anyone who drafts a winning speech that eventually loses is guilty of conspiracy?!?

    Absolutely! The draft was ended on January 27, 1973.

    nk (d99edb)

  16. With four criminal cases now, will the Georgia court admit him to bail?

    Will DeSantis refuse to extradite him again?

    nk (d99edb)

  17. Wait, so anyone who drafts a winning speech that eventually loses is guilty of conspiracy?!?

    Try reading it again.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  18. The ball is now in the court of the participants of the Aug 23 GOP debate in Milwaukee. Will they spend their valuable time making excuses for Trump and attacking our justice system or will they finally say defiantly that Trump needs to get out….and that the electorate cannot nominate someone in this much legal peril?

    By most accounts, the Georgia indictment falls in the category of the classified documents case and is strong. It is also a state indictment that cannot be cynically wisked away by Trump being elected. This is a sober test for our democracy. Does the GOP choose self preservation or does it push forward with stressing a system that is nearing the snapping point? Absent any clear data, I still think smart people know that the party is irretrievably damaged if it nominates Trump….and that though chaos presents opportunities to the opportunistic grifters, the sane middle will never trust the GOP or its enablers again.

    So I think next Wednesday will be a distinct pivot point in this election. Maybe Ramaswamy remains steadfast in Trump’s corner, but the rest will break….and Trump’s numbers will head South shortly after. There is nothing to be gained to crater the party and go down with Trump. Good people…meaning voters… will start grudgingly coming over….

    AJ_Liberty (9760ea)

  19. #20

    Nothing that has happened in the past 6 months gives me any reason to be optimistic about the GOP. They are following the lead of their base.

    Appalled (447054)

  20. Seeing as that Asa Hutchinson is the only one who’s fit to even be in that debate, I agree with Appalled about the GOP.

    But it is our chance to see Nikki Haley looking as close to a pinup as she ever will, Trump having said that he might be watching the debate with an eye to picking one of them as his Vice Presidential running mate.

    nk (d99edb)

  21. And for those taking the SAT/ACT in the near future:

    The term ‘vice president’ is not generally hyphenated. ‘Vice’ is not a prefix, but a word that means that the person is acting in place of someone else, which the vice president does if the president is unable.

    nk (d99edb)

  22. @15 Yes. That’s exactly what they’re doing and there’s nothing in this situation that’s different from all times that’s been done. Failure to prosecute all those other cases is unquestionable evidence of the 2 tiered justice system and proves the existence of the deep state.

    Please stock up on canned goods

    /snark

    Time123 (6a7425)

  23. Wait, so anyone who drafts a winning speech that eventually loses is guilty of conspiracy?!?

    No, a person who drafts a losing speech prior to Election Day that claims massive fraud and that he really won, it speaks to Trump’s criminal intent to overturn an election that didn’t go his way.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  24. “Nothing that has happened in the past 6 months gives me any reason to be optimistic about the GOP.”

    Indeed one winces at the intractability of the primary polling. But we are also in uncharted waters. Most people don’t endlessly go on about this stuff and obsessively have their thermometer in the ear of politics (rectum, however apropos, seems dated). For most, it remains about party loyalty and supporting the memes about a corrupt and unfair justice department, Joe Biden attacking his chief rival, and the media pumping the usual liberal narrative.

    To us, why isn’t that stubborn 25% of Trump support shaking loose (the other 30% is lost)? Why don’t they care that they are making a mockery of the rule of law and the integrity of the vote? But most people are occupied with life including getting their kids ready for school, getting oil changes, sealing cracks in the foundation, and recovering from family vacations. I think the debates start to make it more real. It’s not just townhall infomercials. It’s not just attack ads that lack balance or proportion. Now it’s candidates that must stand next to each other and argue for why we should hire them. Naive? Perhaps, but this is when people start to distinguish themselves and make the charges against Trump real. I expect some strong medicine….let’s see if DeSantis gets serious….

    AJ_Liberty (9760ea)

  25. Maybe Ramaswamy remains steadfast in Trump’s corner……..

    “As someone who’s running for President against Trump, I’d volunteer to write the amicus brief to the court myself: prosecutors should not be deciding U.S. presidential elections, and if they’re so overzealous that they commit constitutional violations, then the cases should be thrown out & they should be held accountable,” Ramaswamy wrote on X, the social media site formerly known as Twitter.

    Source

    Rip Murdock (dbaf46)

  26. I mean look at the Sub-Third World — he’d need 2,000 years of social evolution to achieve banana republic level — who is buying $1 contributions to qualify for the debate with $20 gift cards. Why didn’t the offer alone automatically disqualify him?

    nk (d99edb)

  27. Heh! Jinx, Rip!

    nk (d99edb)

  28. ……..Trump’s numbers will head South shortly after. There is nothing to be gained to crater the party and go down with Trump. Good people…meaning voters… will start grudgingly coming over….

    We’ll see.

    Rip Murdock (dbaf46)

  29. On or about the 4th day of November 2020, DONALD JOHN TRUMP made a
    nationally televised speech falsely declaring victory in the 2020 presidential election. Approximately four days earlier, on or about October 31, 2020, DONALD JOHN TRUMP discussed a draft speech with unindicted co-conspirator Individual 1, whose identity is known to the Grand Jury, that falsely declared victory and falsely claimed voter fraud. The speech was an overt act in furtherance of the conspiracy.

    *waves at Steve Bannon*

    Patterico (f5a1b0)

  30. Kevin M (ed969f) — 8/14/2023 @ 9:41 pm

    What were they thinking? Why did they think this would work?

    I think this was possibly a conspiracy, on the part of Steve Bannon and others, to destroy democracy, and the goal was not to re-elect Trump but to try to destroy democracy, and Trump was not part of that conspiracy (because his goal was to remain in office, not damage the credibility of the election system, but to some others the only thing that mattered was damaging the credibility of the election system)

    The first overt act was not declaring victory after Election Day, but telling people not to vote by mail. This reduced his chances of winning, but was crucial to the claim of vote rigging.

    BTW, Trump was prevailed upon by Republicans to make an exception for Florida and say that voting by mail there was OK.

    Sammy Finkelman (1b5c2d)

  31. If someone wanted to damage Trump’s election chances in 2024 (which may not have been the purpose here) the way to do that would have been to try to make him into a co-operating witness against others like Sidney Powell and Mike Flynn.

    Sammy Finkelman (1b5c2d)

  32. After reading the GA indictments, I think this is even stronger than Smith’s Documents/J6 case.

    Is it too much to hope that he’s toast?

    GA Courts don’t have to abide by the federal case schedules…right?

    whembly (5f7596)

  33. The co-conspirators I would really, really like to see tried alongside Trump are his butt-gerbils in Congress (waves at Cruz and Hawley) but unfortunately they are shielded by the Speech and Debate Clause.

    nk (d99edb)

  34. Let’s see how Andy McCarthy and J. Turley address this.

    Appalled (5555f4)

  35. the way to do that would have been to try to make (Trump) into a co-operating witness against others like Sidney Powell and Mike Flynn.

    Comedy Gold!

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  36. Comedy Gold!

    Former President Donald Trump claimed he would be exonerated of all charges listed in the Georgia indictment next week after he releases a “detailed” report on the alleged voter fraud in the state during the 2020 election.

    Trump announced that he would hold a press briefing on the report on Monday in Bedminster, New Jersey, where he would go over the report. Trump also said it should exonerate the 18 other people who were listed in the indictment and face their own charges.

    “A Large, Complex, Detailed but Irrefutable REPORT on the Presidential Election Fraud which took place in Georgia is almost complete & will be presented by me at a major News Conference at 11:00 A.M. on Monday of next week in Bedminster, New Jersey,” Trump said in a Tuesday morning post on Truth Social, his social media website.

    “Based on the results of this CONCLUSIVE Report, all charges should be dropped against me & others — There will be a complete EXONERATION! They never went after those that Rigged the Election. They only went after those that fought to find the RIGGERS!”
    ………

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  37. Let’s see how Andy McCarthy and J. Turley address this.

    Appalled (5555f4) — 8/15/2023 @ 8:36 am

    Here is Andy’s take.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  38. And Jonathan Turley’s.

    It’s excessive and I think it’s also dangerous. It essentially criminalizes challenges to elections. There’s no sort of limiting principle in this document. They are charging things like the president saying publicly, we need to have a recount. Democrats and Republicans challenge these elections routinely. I’ve covered elections for various networks. ……..(Fani WIllis) indicted everyone for everything she could think of. It is sort of the Jackson Pollock school of prosecution. She threw it all against the canvas and I think she is hoping that some of these other co-defendants will flip.

    But having said that, I think that the Trump team has to realize that this is a serious threat, not because of the merits, but because, as a racketeering case, it’s very hard to take these cases up on appeal before trial. It’s very hard to get them dismissed on threshold questions. Willis will argue that she should have the right to present her evidence in trial in court. That is likely to be successful. Also, this is not a case that can be dismissed with a federal pardon, whether by Trump himself or by an elected Republican. That’s why this has to be taken seriously.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  39. I hate to be blunt: tell me again that strength of character doesn’t matter in a politician. It is true that DJT makes people insane all across the board, but why can we not have decent men and women running for and in office.

    Simon Jester (ff9c91)

  40. Simon Jester (ff9c91) — 8/15/2023 @ 9:23 am

    gth of character doesn’t matter in a politician. It is true that DJT makes people insane all across the board, but why can we not have decent men and women running for and in office.

    1970s Campaign finance reform, which severely limits the number of candidates who can run, and turns presidential primaries into demolition derbys. (no late entries, except to some degree, self-financing candidates.)

    Sammy Finkelman (1b5c2d)

  41. Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 8/15/2023 @ 8:37 am

    Comedy Gold!

    That would actually damage him politically, instead of reinforcing him with his base. He’d have to say he was working with bad people, and/or was misled by them on some things.

    Sammy Finkelman (1b5c2d)

  42. I see, the indictment does place the conspiracy’s start bEFORE the election:

    , on or about October 31, 2020, DONALD JOHN TRUMP discussed a draft speech with unindicted co-conspirator Individual 1, whose identity is known to the Grand Jury, that falsely declared victory and falsely claimed voter fraud.

    But the basis for that claim wa to be the disparity in the percentage of the vote received by the two major candidates between mail ballots and ballots cast in person, and that was caused by Trump telling people not to vote absentee (except in Florida)

    Sammy Finkelman (1b5c2d)

  43. Andy McCarthy said on the radio that the more puny the case (sounds) the more serious it is, and the more grandiose, the weaker.

    Sammy Finkelman (1b5c2d)

  44. Who is Scott McAfee, the judge assigned to oversee Trump case in Georgia?

    ………
    Scott McAfee became a Fulton County Superior Court judge in February after a career in which he has worked as a prosecutor and state inspector general, where he was “responsible for investigating allegations of fraud, waste, and abuse in the Executive Branch of state government.”
    ………
    Prior to his IG role, he worked as the assistant United States attorney in the Northern District of Georgia and as senior assistant district attorney in the Fulton County Atlanta Judicial Circuit. In those positions, he prosecuted cases on drug trafficking, fraud, armed robbery and murder.
    ……….

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  45. Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 8/15/2023 @ 8:37 am

    Comedy Gold!

    That would actually damage him politically, instead of reinforcing him with his base.

    But it will be perfect!

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  46. The Dersh on the indictment:

    ………
    Harvard professor Alan Dershowitz, speaking to Fox News Digital, criticized the pending indictment, calling Trump’s actions “very similar” to that of Al Gore’s legal strategy in the Bush v. Gore case that decided the 2000 presidential election.
    ………
    Dershowitz, in speaking to Fox News’ Sean Hannity Monday evening, said it would be wrong to “expand” the RICO statute to “include political objections,” including ones that members of the Democrat party have made.

    “You cannot start making crimes out of things that the Democrats did — Tilden Hayes, John Kennedy election 2000 election 2016 election, Jamie Raskin gets up and does some of the same things. These are political actions that the Constitution prefers us to take rather than going out on the streets and rioting. We’re supposed to go to court. We’re supposed to go to Congress. You can’t make those things crimes. And you can’t expand the RICO statute to now include political objections,” he said.
    ………
    “So if you look back at the 2000 election and the protests, I still think to this day, and I’ll say it here on television, that that election was stolen from Al Gore by Bush that he won the actual election. I’m saying that — are they going to come after me now?” Dershowitz said.
    ………
    “Nobody should take the indictments at all seriously, because they announced the indictment before the grand jury even voted. So the grand jury is just a rubber stamp. And so, nobody should say, ‘Oh, the grand jury indicted, so it must be serious,’” Dershowitz said.
    ……….

    Related:

    Republican presidential candidate and former governor of New Jersey, Chris Christie, knocked down a talking point on Fox News Tuesday regarding the latest indictment of former President Donald Trump in Georgia – the idea that Trump acted similarly to Al Gore by challenging his election loss.
    ……….
    “And Alan Dershowitz argued last night that they were doing the same thing on behalf of Al Gore in Florida and in Palm Beach County in the year 2000,” (Bill) Hemmer challenged.

    “Except when Al Gore lost his legal challenges. He conceded the election. Al Gore took it all the way to the United States Supreme Court, he availed himself of all the legal challenges, Bill. And then when the courts were done, Al Gore said, I still don’t agree with it, but the courts are done. I’m backing off,” Christie replied.

    “Donald Trump has been much different and I said this to the president in December of 2020, the last time he and I spoke, I said, you availed yourself to the courts. There’s nothing left. You need to concede the election. And he said, I will never, ever, ever admit it. Well, look, if you’re going to continue to use the power of the presidency, which he was doing to put pressure on people, you’re going to put yourself in a very dangerous circumstance,” Christie argued, adding:

    And let’s put it aside for a second from the criminal. We can’t normalize this conduct. I mean, this has never happened before in this country, ever, where you had a candidate for president, United States conduct himself in this way to disrespect the election process, in this way, to refuse to accept the verdict of the voters. And what does it say about his judgment, guys? What does it say about whether or not he’s fit to sit behind that desk? …….

    ……….

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  47. Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 8/15/2023 @ 8:41 am

    More Comedy Gold!

    ………..
    National security attorney Bradley Moss mocked the idea that Trump would present a “detailed and irrefutable report that he has been holding on to for 2.5 years and never presented in any court of law.” Stephen Fowler, a reporter for Georgia Public Broadcasting, pointed out the irony in Trump’s argument, noting that he “is now arguing the new Georgia racketeering charges against him should be dropped by … making similar false claims of fraud in a way that got him indicted not 12 hours ago.” ……..

    Michael Bromwich, a former federal prosecutor and Justice Department inspector general, warned that Trump’s plan may backfire. “Trump’s lawyers will be hiding under the covers, and prosecutors will be listening for obstruction and witness tampering,” he wrote. “The most likely result: accelerated trial dates in DC and Georgia.”
    ##########

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)


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