Patterico's Pontifications

8/11/2023

Weekend Open Thread

Filed under: General — Dana @ 10:42 am



[guest post by Dana]

Let’s go!

First news item

Judge Chutkan cautions Trump:

“Mr. Trump, like every American, has a First Amendment right to free speech, but that right is not absolute. In a criminal case such as this one, the defendant’s free speech is subject to the rules…Whether or not Trump’s public statements are covered by the protective order that’s issued, if they result in the intimidation of a witness or the obstruction of justice, “I will be scrutinizing them very carefully.”

Amusingly, from Trump’s lawyer:

“President Trump will scrupulously abide by his conditions of release.”

Note: Chutkan adopted restrictions proposed by prosecutors that would bar Trump from publicly disclosing information from interview transcripts and recordings from the investigation, including from witness interviews with investigators that took place outside of the grand jury.

Addtionally, from Judge Chutkan:

“The fact that he is running a political campaign currently has to yield to the administration of justice,” the judge said. “And if that means he can’t say exactly what he wants to say in a political speech, that is just how it’s going to have to be.”

When Trump’s lawyer suggested that if Trump debates Pence, there might be an overlap of what is in discovery, the judge wasn’t buying it: “He is a criminal defendant. He is going to have constraints the same as any defendant. This case is going to proceed in a normal order.”

Meanwhile, the former president isn’t a unhappy camper:

Second news item

Judge Luttig opines on today’s Republican Party:

“American democracy simply cannot function without two equally healthy and equally strong political parties. So today, in my view, there is no Republican Party to counter the Democratic Party in the country…And for that reason, American democracy is in grave peril.”

“A political party is a collection and assemblage of individuals who share a set of beliefs and principles and policy views about the United States of America. Today, there is no such shared set of beliefs and values and principles or even policy views as within the Republican Party for America.”

Third news item

Military aid package to Ukraine:

The Pentagon will provide Ukraine with $200 million in weapons and ammunition to help sustain Kyiv’s counteroffensive as troops on the front lines face significant hurdles against a well-entrenched Russian defense, according to two U.S. officials.

This latest package will include missiles for the High-Mobility Artillery Rocket System (HIMARS) and the Patriot air defense system, munitions for howitzers and tanks, Javelin rockets, mine-clearing equipment, 12 million rounds of small arms ammunition and demolition munitions, said a U.S. official. The officials spoke on condition of anonymity because the aid has not yet been publicly announced.

About continuing aid to Ukraine:

The idea that the U.S. is prioritizing Ukraine over domestic concerns is not true. For example, the CARES Act that was passed in response to the Covid pandemic cost $2 trillion. That’s about $15,600 per household. Total Covid relief spending totaled around $5 trillion, or about $39,100 per household. That’s 4,244 percent greater than Ukraine spending per household.

Ukraine aid is not driving the $32.7 trillion national debt. U.S. national debt per household is about $256,000. The $900 for Ukraine is 0.35 percent of that.

Consider the context of defense spending, which is a legitimate function of the federal government that should be prioritized in budgeting. The 2023 budget for the Department of Defense is $816.7 billion. That’s for one year. The $113 billion in Ukraine aid has been over about one and a half years. At an annualized rate of $75.3 billion for Ukraine, the U.S. is spending the equivalent of 9.2 percent of its defense budget to fund a country that is willing and able to effectively fight one of America’s top adversaries and degrade that adversary’s military capabilities, all while putting zero American lives at risk.

The unspoken assumption behind the $900-per-household number is that if only it weren’t for Ukraine aid, that money would come back to taxpayers. It would not. The government did not raise taxes to fund Ukraine spending, and it would spend those $900 on something else.

Hyping up aid to foreign countries as a fiscal concern is an age-old tactic in American politics. It’s much easier to argue for cutting spending when the beneficiaries of that spending don’t vote in American elections. But America’s spending problems are driven by health-care programs, interest payments, and Social Security.

The U.S. has indeed spent $900 per household on Ukraine aid in the past year and a half. Based on this year’s projected outlays of $5.3 trillion, the federal government is spending about $14.5 billion per day, $605 million per hour, $10 million per minute, and $168,000 per second. Ukraine spending isn’t the problem.

Third news item

Fuck these man-children who simply cannot handle women knowing freedom:

For months, Iranian authorities did little to enforce the law on women covering their hair but now the country’s theocracy is pushing to make businesses the new battleground over the mandatory headscarf.

The effort comes ahead of the first anniversary of nationwide protests that erupted after the Sept. 16 death of Mahsa Amini in the custody of the country’s morality police. A crackdown by security forces that followed saw more than 530 people killed and over 22,000 arrested.

These days, with uncovered women a common sight on Tehran streets, authorities have begun raiding companies where women employees or customers have been seen without the headscarf, or hijab. Iran’s parliament is discussing a law that would increase punishments on uncovered women and the businesses they frequent…

“I’m telling you that this lack of hijab will be definitely put an end to,“ hard-line President Ebrahim Raisi said Wednesday.

Fourth news item

Speaking of Iran:

President Biden has signed off on a politically charged agreement with Iran to bring home five American citizens in exchange for the regime gaining access in the coming weeks to billions of dollars in blocked funds sitting outside the heavily sanctioned country, CBS News has learned.

Some $6 billion of that money currently sits in a restricted bank account in South Korea that is inaccessible to the heavily sanctioned Iranian regime.

Adrienne Watson, a spokesperson for the National Security Council, confirmed the five prisoners had been placed under house arrest and said “negotiations for their eventual release remain ongoing and are delicate.”

Prominent activist Masih Alinejad reacts to the news:

Biden reaches $6B deal to free Americans in exchange for jailed Iranians.

Taking Americans and Europeans hostage is a business for the criminal leaders of Islamic Republic.

Many Iranians are glad that 5 innocent American-Iranians kept hostage, as bargaining chip have been released. From personal experience I know how hard it is for the families.

But the Biden administration is paying a huge price and there are no guarantees that more Americans will not be taken hostage.

Biden administration should be transparent about the details of releasing this five innocent prisoners. They have to address to all Americans that what Islamic Republic will get in return.

Giving billions of dollars to hostage takers will send a signal to them that from now on you can take more Americans hostage without any punishment.

This is called hostage diplomacy, and it should end.

The US and the European leaders must warn their citizens not to travel to Iran. Because my beloved country Iran under this barbaric regime is not land of tourism, but land of terrorism. Instead of sending billions of dollars to terrorists, the US must call it’s allies, to get them united and ask them to cut their diplomatic relation with hostage takers until all innocent political prisoners are free.Islamic Republic only understand one language: language of pressure.

Fifth news item

Special counsel appointed re Hunter Biden:

Attorney General Merrick Garland announced Friday that he is appointing U.S. Attorney for Delaware David Weiss as special counsel to lead the investigation into Hunter Biden.

“Upon considering his request, as well as the extraordinary circumstances relating to this matter, I have concluded that it is in the public interest to appoint him as special counsel,” Garland said.

Sixth news item

Latest on the horrific wildfires in Hawaii:

As many as 55 people have now been confirmed dead in the wildfires that tore through Maui, and mass evacuations of residents and tourists continue.

Maui County Mayor Richard Bissen said Friday morning the death toll “could go up.” So far, victims were found outside buildings, the interior of structures have not yet been searched.

Six fires are still burning in Maui and the Big Island, but officials said the Lahaina fire is now 80% contained. Many of the town’s historic landmarks are lost.

Go here for information on how to provide aid to help.

Seventh news item

One of my favorite bands growing up was The Band, led by the talented Robbie Robertson. He passed away this week at 80 years of age. Whenever I listen to The Band, I am instantly and sentimentally transported back to summers in upstate New York. While I am unable to adequately describe their music because of its uniqueness, I think this is pretty close: The group’s rootsy sound and soulful performances, combined with Robertson’s evocative and enigmatic songwriting and strong knack for melody, helped set the early standard for the hybrid genre that would eventually become known as Americana, inspiring entire generations of future musicians. The outfit bid farewell with a 1976 concert at San Francisco’s Winterland Ballroom. The event was filmed by Martin Scorsese and released as the stellar documentary, The Last Waltz. The only surviving original member of The Band is Garth Hudson.

Have a great weekend!

–Dana

246 Responses to “Weekend Open Thread”

  1. Hello.

    Dana (4020dd)

  2. President Biden has signed off on a politically charged agreement with Iran to bring home five American citizens in exchange for the regime gaining access in the coming weeks to billions of dollars in blocked funds sitting outside the heavily sanctioned country, CBS News has learned.

    Remember when “trading arms for hostages” was the worst offense any President had committed since Franklin Roosevelt had interred Japanese-Americans? Given the Obama and Biden dispositions, I guess trading cash for hostages is way better. Of course that cash will just go to Chinese arms merchants, when it could have gone directly to U.S. arms dealers. Oh well.

    JVW (ce7bca)

  3. The group’s rootsy sound and soulful performances, combined with Robertson’s evocative and enigmatic songwriting and strong knack for melody, helped set the early standard for the hybrid genre that would eventually become known as Americana, inspiring entire generations of future musicians.

    It’s crazy that the Band became so tightly associated with Americana style music, given that Levon Helm of Arkansas was the only U.S.-born member of the band, who were otherwise all Canadians.

    JVW (3c2d3b)

  4. Garth Hudson is the only original member of the Band still living.

    JVW (9f34b3)

  5. The Iranians are going to consider the $6 billion a ransom payment, just like they did when Obama gave them pallets of cash over seven years ago.
    The de facto theocratic regime still has zero incentive to refrain from taking more Americans hostage.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  6. It seems we DO negotiate with terrorists.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  7. One good thing about the DC case restrictions: It will make Trump far less interested in delay. I wonder if he will ask for an earlier date.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  8. In a weird way I hope this dude is a troll or deviates in a big way (gay, lefty, married to a militantly leftist minority woman) from his would be sudden benefactors:

    https://www.whiskeyriff.com/2023/08/10/virginia-native-oliver-anthony-makes-powerful-debut-rich-men-north-of-richmond/

    urbanleftbehind (c0ab3c)

  9. It seems we DO negotiate with terrorists.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 8/11/2023 @ 11:17 am

    That precedent was established a long time ago.

    Rip Murdock (bac490)

  10. One good thing about the DC case restrictions: It will make Trump far less interested in delay. I wonder if he will ask for an earlier date.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 8/11/2023 @ 11:22 am

    LOL!

    Rip Murdock (bac490)

  11. BTW, I’m glad that Garland appointed a Special Counsel, but I’m not glad he elevated Weiss and didn’t replacement him with someone else.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  12. It seems we DO negotiate with terrorists.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 8/11/2023 @ 11:17 am

    That’s true. It makes us no better than Israel.

    Rip Murdock (807fd2)

  13. Paul Montagu (d52d7d) — 8/11/2023 @ 12:03 pm

    Whomever the special counsel is wouldn’t have made a difference in Reps. Comer or Jordan reaction, as they are more interested in scoring political points than the truth. It’s all part of the coverup, you see:

    House and Senate Republicans on Friday ripped Attorney General Merrick Garland’s decision to appoint U.S. Attorney David Weiss as the special counsel in the ongoing investigation into Hunter Biden.

    Republicans accused Weiss of signing off on a “sweetheart deal” with the president’s son and suggested that he was appointed as special counsel to inhibit congressional investigations into the Bidens and to avoid testifying before Congress.
    …………
    Rep. James Comer, R-Ky., the chair of the Oversight Committee who’s been investigating the Biden family’s business dealings, slammed the development as “part of the Justice Department’s efforts to attempt a Biden family coverup.”
    …………
    Another powerful Republican, House Judiciary Committee Chairman Jim Jordan, R-Ohio, had previously called on Garland to name a special counsel in the case. But on Friday, Jordan’s team also took aim at Weiss, who was nominated by then-President Donald Trump to serve as U.S. attorney in Delaware and stayed on under President Joe Biden.
    ……….
    “David Weiss can’t be trusted and this is just a new way to whitewash the Biden family’s corruption,” said Jordan spokesman Russell Dye. ………
    ………..

    No matter who was appointed, the Republicans in the House will continue to make allegations without evidence:
    ……….

    “President Biden’s defenders purport a weak defense by asserting the Committee must show payments directly to the President to show corruption,” the House Oversight Republicans wrote.
    …………
    But, so far, it appears the committee has not found any direct evidence that President Biden personally benefited from any of his son’s business dealings. Republicans are now insisting they don’t have to.
    ………..
    Pressed by CNN’s Jake Tapper on “The Lead” Thursday, Committee Chairman James Comer went as far as to say he believed that Joe Biden has been “compromised” because of his son’s business dealings even though nothing in the panel’s investigation has turned up evidence that the president has done anything wrong. Comer also dodged Tapper’s question when presented with the fact that he has failed to meet the bar that he had set for his investigation, as Comer has long said his probe is about the president specifically.

    Source

    Rip Murdock (25822e)

  14. Good thread on the Michigan fake electors. (H/T: Jonah Goldberg)

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  15. This is NAGA Country!!

    The Native American Guardians Association has issued a letter in which it calls for the team to be rebranded back to its original name to properly represent the original settlers of the country. The founder and President of NAGA notes that much of the controversy of the old team name, while spearheaded by some Indian activists, was mostly fueled by Non-NA individuals, citing a survey conducted by The Washington Post that revealed 90 percent of Native Americans were fine with the name, with most citing it as a point of pride.

    At this moment in history, we are formally requesting that the team revitalize its relationship with the American Indian community by (i) changing the name back to ‘The Redskins’ which recognizes America’s original inhabitants and (ii) using the team’s historic name and legacy to encourage Americans to learn about, not cancel, the history of America’s tribes and our role in the founding of this Great Nation.

    Buduh (743b2f)

  16. (H/T: Jonah Goldberg)

    Thanks for the warning.

    BuDuh (743b2f)

  17. Dana, I have at least one comment in moderation. Maybe two depending on how my corrections were treated by the filter.

    Thank you in advance.

    BuDuh (743b2f)

  18. It’s been released, BuDuh.

    Dana (4020dd)

  19. Thank you. 🙂

    BuDuh (743b2f)

  20. Buduh (743b2f) — 8/11/2023 @ 12:31 pm

    Unlikely to happen.

    Rip Murdock (25822e)

  21. Buduh (743b2f) — 8/11/2023 @ 12:31 pm

    As long as we are being politically incorrect, are they going on the warpath?

    Rip Murdock (25822e)

  22. I apologize for my post 21.

    Rip Murdock (25822e)

  23. Third news item:

    Biden asks Congress for $24 billion in more Ukraine assistance

    The request – which includes more than $13 billion in security assistance and $7.3 billion for economic and humanitarian assistance for Ukraine – sets up a potential battle with Republicans in Congress, some of whom voice skepticism about providing Ukraine any more money. As a counteroffensive wears on and prospects of the war concluding soon appear slim, the funding will act as evidence of whether US support for Ukraine can be sustained.
    ………..

    Rip Murdock (25822e)

  24. News Corp says AI is the future of news.

    Here’s a preview: https://youtu.be/EzPlotAwm8Y

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  25. BTW, I’m glad that Garland appointed a Special Counsel, but I’m not glad he elevated Weiss and didn’t replacement him with someone else.

    There is zero chance he would have picked someone believable. At least we will find out what Weiss wanted to do without DoJ interference.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  26. If the U.S. is going to spend $24 billion more in Ukraine, then I want to hear that the EU is committed to at least another $72 billion in spending. It’s their continent, so I don’t think it’s out of line to ask them to take on at least 75% of the overall financial commitment.

    JVW (702d74)

  27. Dennis prager’s prager u has got floriduh’s gov. desatan to foist on floriduh’s school children a so called history comic book portraying fredrick douglass as a uncle tom saying slaves benefited from learning skills from their slave masters like running cotton gins. Also has douglass saying abolitionists were to like william loyd garrison and harriet tubman were to militant! No mention of douglass support of john brown. The black community will hopefully have the power to fight back against this abomination.

    asset (749a2c)

  28. The Hunter Biden case will now proceed to trial

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  29. 5. Paul Montagu (d52d7d) — 8/11/2023 @ 11:01 am

    The Iranians are going to consider the $6 billion a ransom payment, just like they did when Obama gave them pallets of cash over seven years ago.

    Or Jimmy Carter did in 1981. The Iranians knew they would not get a better deal from Reagan.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  30. What I like about the Babylon Bee is its dry humor and subtlety.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  31. I like its microwaved burritos with a side order of Cheetos.

    nk (4b634a)

  32. A Warning to Trump:

    Sam Bankman-Fried will head to jail on Friday after a judge sided with a request by federal prosecutors to revoke the FTX co-founder’s bail over alleged witness tampering. Bankman-Fried will be remanded to custody directly from a court hearing in New York, where he will remain ahead of his criminal trial — which is due to begin on Oct. 2.
    ………….
    Bankman-Fried’s court appearance on Friday is the latest in a series of pre-trial hearings related to the ex-billionaire’s continued dealings with the press — exchanges which the Justice Department characterizes as a “pattern of witness tampering and evading his bail conditions.”

    Judge (Lewis) Kaplan previously issued a direct and stern warning to Bankman-Fried in July over his conversations with the media.
    …………
    In the motion requesting Bankman-Fried’s detention, the government said that, over the last several months, the defendant had sent over 100 emails to the media and had made over 1,000 phone calls to members of the press. The final straw, according to prosecutors, was Bankman-Fried leaking private diary entries of his ex-girlfriend, Caroline Ellison, to the New York Times. Ellison pleaded guilty to federal charges in Dec. 2022.

    Ellison, who is also the former chief executive of Bankman-Fried’s failed crypto hedge fund, Alameda Research, has been cooperating with the government since December and is expected to be a star witness for the prosecution.
    …………
    The prosecution described the effort by Bankman-Fried — who faces several wire and securities fraud charges related to the alleged multibillion-dollar FTX fraud — as an attempt to discredit Ellison, characterizing it as a “means of indirect witness intimidation through the press.”
    …………

    Small world department:?Judge Lewis Kaplan is same judge overseeing the Trump/E. Jean Carroll lawsuits.

    Rip Murdock (25822e)

  33. Put the Cheetos XXTRA Flamin’ Hot inside the microwave burrito purchased at your favorite gas station a large Coke then eat it while sitting on a 5 gallon bucket fitted with adapter kit

    steveg (1c1b1c)

  34. @30 Are you trying to say no help for maui from biden administration?

    asset (749a2c)

  35. Item One:

    Protective Order for Criminal Action No. 23-00257 (TSC) United States of America v. Donald J. Trump.

    Rip Murdock (25822e)

  36. asset (749a2c) — 8/11/2023 @ 5:31 pm

    It’s from the “satirical” Babylon Bee.

    Rip Murdock (25822e)

  37. In case people are interested what the Navy, coast guard, and national guard are up to in Hawaii during the fire

    Nic (896fdf)

  38. Third News Item:

    Total bilateral aid commitments to Ukraine as a percentage of donor gross domestic product (GDP) between January 24, 2022 and May 31, 2023, by country

    Top Ten:

    Estonia. 1.26%

    Latvia 1.09

    Lithuania .95

    Poland .68

    Slovakia .63

    Denmark .51

    Norway .47

    Finland .44

    Netherlands .44

    UK .37
    ……….

    Rip Murdock (25822e)

  39. Jeff Bezos and Lauren Sánchez pledge $100 million to Maui recovery

    Great. I was going to donate, now I don’t have to.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  40. Small world department:?Judge Lewis Kaplan is same judge overseeing the Trump/E. Jean Carroll lawsuits.

    Not going to jail Trump over a lawsuit.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  41. Between 1/24/22 – 5/31/23 the US has provided $76 billion in military and humanitarian assistance assistance to Ukraine while European governments and institutions have provided $71 billion.

    Rip Murdock (25822e)

  42. Great. I was going to donate, now I don’t have to.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 8/11/2023 @ 7:05 pm

    You’ll be paying for it through your taxes for years.

    Rip Murdock (807fd2)

  43. Top Ten:

    But those slackers in Sweden!

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  44. Germany isn’t giving a lot and France almost nothing.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  45. Germany has given about 10% of the total European commitment directly to Ukraine, while France has funneled most its aid indirectly through EU institutions.

    Rip Murdock (25822e)

  46. Germany has given about 10% of the total European commitment directly to Ukraine

    As a proportion of GDP they’re pikers.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  47. Child being bus to chicago by order of texas gov. gregg abbott dies on bus. If we had a real democrat president like AOC instead of a corrupt corporate shill like biden she would have abbott arrested for child endangerment and reckless homicide.

    asset (82d2af)

  48. Fairleigh Dickinson University National Poll 8/10/23

    …………
    Only about 1 in 6 Republican primary voters (17 percent) say that the indictments against Trump are legitimate. But among the group who say that the indictments are justified, the race looks very different. In that group, (former New Jersey Governor Chris) Christie leads the pack, with 25 percent support, with (former Florida Governor Ron) DeSantis and (former Vice President Mike) Pence close behind (at 19 percent and 16 percent, respectively). (former President Donald) Trump retains the support of 10 percent of those who say that the indictments against him are justified.

    “Christie is doing a great job of reaching Republicans who think that Trump did crimes,” said Dan Cassino, a professor of Government and Politics at FDU, and the director of the poll. “The problem is that there just aren’t enough yet of them even get close in a Republican primary.”

    Overall, Trump has the support of 58 percent of the likely Republican primary electorate, including those who are leaning towards one candidate or another. DeSantis has the support of 15 percent, with no other candidate getting out of the single digits.

    However, even in those lower ranks, the poll has some surprises. Christie and Pence, the two candidates who have most notably spoken out against Trump, are each polling at 5 percent. Former South Carolina governor Nikki Haley, entrepreneur Vivek Ramaswamy, South Carolina Senator Tim Scott and North Dakota Governor Doug Burgum round out the next tier of candidates, all with measurable support at 3 percent or less. No other candidate reached one percent support in the poll.
    ………….
    To examine the effect of the recent spate of indictments on support for Trump, an experiment was embedded in the poll. Half of respondents were asked about the indictments before being asked if they would consider supporting someone other than their initial choice; half were asked about the indictments only afterwards. All told, 48 percent of Trump supporters say that they would consider supporting someone else for the nomination. But when Trump supporters are reminded about the indictments, they become 11 points more likely to say that they’re open to supporting someone else (an increase from 43 percent to 54 percent).

    In effect, reminding voters about the indictments reduces the size of the “only Trump” wing of the party from 32 percent to 25 percent. In contrast, the “never Trump” wing of the party, currently supporting a different candidate, and saying that they will not consider supporting Trump, consists of 21 percent.

    “All of these legal problems are having an effect,” said Cassino. “But even if Trump lost all of his supporters who say they’re open to someone else, he’d still be in the lead.”
    …………….

    Paragraph breaks added. Poll questions and answers at link.

    Rip Murdock (25822e)

  49. she would have abbott arrested for child endangerment and reckless homicide.

    Neither of which are federal crimes.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  50. Small world department: Judge Lewis Kaplan is same judge overseeing the Trump/E. Jean Carroll lawsuits.

    Not going to jail Trump over a lawsuit.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 8/11/2023 @ 7:07 pm

    Obviously you missed the point of my post and focused on the trivial.

    Rip Murdock (25822e)

  51. she would have abbott arrested for child endangerment and reckless homicide.

    Neither of which are federal crimes.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 8/12/2023 @ 8:02 am

    Interesting question, since the bus was obviously involved in interstate travel, which is regulated by the federal government.

    Rip Murdock (25822e)

  52. Interesting question, since the bus was obviously involved in interstate travel, which is regulated by the federal government.

    Oh, there might be other crimes (e.g. kidnapping, Mann Act, fraud, etc) but not the ones asset listed. I note that Trump is not the only one who slept through “Civics.”

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  53. Kevin M (ed969f) — 8/11/2023 @ 7:05 pm

    You’ll be paying for it through your taxes for years.

    Rip Murdock (807fd2) — 8/11/2023 @ 7:14 pm

    The initial recovery estimate by FEMA is that it will cost $5.5B-which does not include the cost of federal rescue efforts by the Coast Guard/Army/Navy.

    As part of the Ukraine funding package noted above, the Administration is requesting $12B for ongoing disaster relief. I wonder how many House Republicans will support that without asking for offsets (or support it at all)?

    Rip Murdock (25822e)

  54. When The Man’s Right, He’s Right:

    …………
    “I have a problem with the (Republican National Committee’s) debate for another reason: I wouldn’t sign the pledge,” Trump told (Newsmax’s) “Eric Bolling The Balance” in a 42-minute (on Wednesday) interview from his summer home in Bedminster, New Jersey. “Why would I sign a pledge? There are people on there that I wouldn’t have.

    “I wouldn’t have certain people as, you know, somebody that I endorse. So they want you to sign a pledge.”

    ………….(Trump) was very critical of former New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie, former Arkansas Gov. Asa Hutchinson, and Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis at times in the interview.

    “I can name three or four people that I wouldn’t support for president,” Trump told Bolling. “So right there, there’s a problem right there. There’s a problem.”

    Also, Trump asked, “what’s the upside” of giving also-rans polling with “2%, 1% or zero %?”
    …………
    Trump did praise Sen. Tim Scott of South Carolina and a politician who is not in the race: South Dakota Gov. Kristi Noem.

    “I saw Kristi Noem — who’s terrific, she’s done a fantastic job — I watched her this morning,” Trump said. “She was on television. They asked, ‘Are you going to run? Because there are other people running, and are you going to run?’

    “She said no. ‘Why aren’t you going to run?’
    ………..
    “She said, ‘Why would I run? Nobody’s going to beat Trump; it’s not even a contest. These people are just wasting their time.'”
    ………….
    Hutchinson is not worth debating, Trump said.

    “……… Chris Christie is falling at 1% and he’s going to ask me nasty questions and others, too.”
    ……….
    “But why would you do that when you’re leading by so much?” Trump asked. ……….
    ………….

    Rip Murdock (25822e)

  55. Rip Murdock (25822e) — 8/12/2023 @ 11:18 am

    Related:

    Trump Should Skip the Debate

    ……….. (Trump) has such a stupendous start over Ron DeSantis, Mike Pence, Chris Christie, Nikki Haley, Tim Scott and the rest of the Republican pack that the cosmos would have to split open and smite him to block his nomination………..

    ………..(T)here’s no reason, outside entertaining his fans, for him to appear on the Milwaukee dais.
    …………
    ………… There’s nobody on the continent who doesn’t know who he is and what he stands for. At this point in the clinched campaign, there is no point in having him win more votes. His media magnetism and skill at domination are so grand that any debate with a panel of Republicans that includes him tends to be about him. Even if Trump were to contain his energies, the rest of the pack would insist on attaching themselves to him because that’s what these GOP candidates do: Hungrily grab any Trump-related morsel of news coverage that they can.

    ……….. By excluding Trump from the debate, the current crop of party leaders could use the forum to present themselves and their ideas to voters without the oppressive background noise of the Trump siren…………

    ………. The candidates would have no alternative but to make a case for themselves and their positions. ……….(S)howcasing the Trump understudies without his presence would help prepare the party for the future.
    ………….

    Rip Murdock (25822e)

  56. Ha, ha, ha! Like “Help, helo me, Ronna!” would not eliminate the pledge if he ordered her to.

    There is only one reason Trump would refuse to take part in a TV show where he has the leading role. He knows that he no longer has the physical reserves or mental agility for a debate. He’s a worn-out, used-up old man running on amphetamines and anabolics.

    nk (91504e)

  57. Trump will lose the general. The majority of voters will NOT elect someone under multiple federal and state indictments…and perhaps facing a conviction going into the convention. This reality will seep back into the GOP primary. In the end, it may not matter…but if a party is so oblivious towards losing, big donors will stop giving and propping it up. One more loss and what exactly can the “Trump Party” claim?

    The reality is that all of this is unprecedented. We’ve never had this bad of choices. I rather believe that good people can still change their minds. If it’s not rue, why debate? Why hold townhalls? Why wait for people to actually vote in the primary? There is still a lot of time before people vote for real. I’m not optimistic, but I’m also not a nihilist. I’m still pulling for truth and people taking their duty seriously.

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  58. He knows that he no longer has the physical reserves or mental agility for a debate. He’s a worn-out, used-up old man running on amphetamines and anabolics.

    nk (91504e) — 8/12/2023 @ 12:00 pm

    There’s really no evidence of Trump’s poor health ; there is plenty of evidence of his political dominance.

    Rip Murdock (25822e)

  59. As Trump pointed out in his Newsmax interview, why should he attend a “debate” to suffer the slings and arrows of the (current) also-rans?

    I think the essay I linked to here is correct, it would be better if Trump didn’t attend, which would allow all of the other candidates to get attention.

    Rip Murdock (25822e)

  60. Craig Deleeuw Robertson has entered the pantheon of MAGA Martyrs:

    “FBI is now killing all online critics of Biden,” Ali Alexander, organizer of “Stop the Steal” protests that fueled the Jan. 6 Capitol riot, announced on his Telegram account on Wednesday. “This is all by design.”

    This alarming claim was prompted by the death of Craig Deleeuw Robertson, 75, in an FBI raid on his Provo, Utah residence early that morning. ……..
    …………
    …………Trump supporters and other right-wingers have seized on his death to imply or claim that Robertson was executed for his political views — turning him into a martyr for free speech. “Hating Biden is enough to get you dead,” as one widely followed conservative put it on Twitter.

    Far-right conspiracy theorist Jack Posobiec said on his podcast that the raid “looks like a message being sent” from the government: “Threaten us, and we’ll show up at your home at 6:15 in the morning and take you out.” On Friday, he posted to Truth Social, “The Left wants what happened to Craig Robertson and Ashli Babbitt to happen to every Trump supporter,” referring to the MAGA rioter killed by a police officer during the Jan. 6 Capitol attack as she attempted to breach the barricaded Speaker’s Lobby. Fellow conspiracy theorist Mike Cernovich tweeted Thursday, “This hit was executed on [Robertson] to make Americans afraid.”

    ……….. Laura Loomer, an extremist banned from various platforms over the years for hate speech and misinformation, referred to the agency as a “Gestapo” in one tweet about Robertson’s death, later alleging that they murdered him “in cold blood because he criticized Joe Biden online.”

    ………. “What do you think,” the author wrote (on Telegram on the QAnon-linked group “The Patriot Voice”) , “does the FBI have a right to KILL someone during a search warrant just because of some statement made online?” One commenter chimed in to say, “It sounds like Biden used the FBI to do his dirty work.”

    Another wrote, “Let’s not forget Ruby Ridge, LaVoy Finicum, Waco, [Ashli Babbitt],”………… “The list continues to grow,” this commenter added, placing Robertson in the same lineage. Charlie Kirk mentioned Ruby Ridge as well in discussing Robertson on his show ThoughtCrime.

    ………. “You could be next, all due to your political beliefs here in America,” warned @OleMurica on Twitter, saying the “entire Deep State will stop at nothing to silence you or get rid of you if you speak out against their corruption.”

    Connecting Robertson to the likes of Finicum and Babbitt is not merely symbolic. ………
    …………
    ………… As one apparent fan put it on Facebook: “Craig Robertson died a warrior’s death, refusing to kneel before a godless tyrant. Rest in Power, sir.”
    ##########

    Rip Murdock (25822e)

  61. Nikki Haley Fights to Stay Competitive in a One-Sided G.O.P. Primary
    …………
    By many measures, (Nikki) Haley is running a healthy campaign poised to capitalize on rivals’ mistakes. She has built a robust fund-raising operation and her team has cash to spare……….And at events, voters often like what she has to say.
    …………
    Yet as Ms. Haley tries to occupy a lonely realm between the moderate and far-right wings of her party, her attempts to gain national traction — talking openly about her positions on abortion, taking a hard stance against transgender girls playing in girls’ sports, attacking Vice President Kamala Harris — appear to be falling flat with the Republican base at large.

    Polls show Ms. Haley stuck in the low single digits in Iowa and New Hampshire, and trailing both Mr. Trump and Gov. Ron DeSantis of Florida in her home state, South Carolina. ………
    ………….
    Ms. Haley, who served as United Nations ambassador under the former president, has carefully calibrated her approach to Mr. Trump and his unwavering followers. Delivering many of the same broadsides he does, but cloaking them in calm tones and plain language, she has alternated between criticism and praise of the former president.

    Her unwillingness to directly confront Mr. Trump has drawn criticism from some anti-Trump Republicans. Former Gov. Chris Christie of New Jersey recently compared the reluctance of Ms. Haley and other candidates to mention Mr. Trump to the “Harry Potter” world’s fear of uttering the name “Voldemort.”
    …………
    After the Capitol riot, she faulted the president. But she later contended that he was needed in the Republican Party and lavished praise on his approach to foreign policy, including his dealings with President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia and Kim Jong-un, the leader of North Korea. She has since echoed Mr. Trump’s hard-line immigration message, including an idea to deploy the military against drug cartels in Mexico.
    ………….
    A bright spot for Ms. Haley is her fund-raising. She raised $7.3 million through her presidential campaign and affiliated committees from April through June, according to financial filings that revealed her strong appeal to small donors. ……..
    …………..

    Haley’s “splitting the difference” between traditional Republican political positions and MAGA world has left her in political purgatory. MAGA world doesn’t trust her (and why vote for her when you can vote for the real thing) and there aren’t enough of them (now) to get her beyond 3%.

    Rip Murdock (25822e)

  62. On the ransom for the Iranian hostages: I repeat my suggestion that we collect hostages from enemy nations like Iran, for any future swaps. Of course, we should not say that we are doing that. I would target the relatives of the thugs currently running Iran, and other such places.

    We should understand that Iran is in a low-level war with us*, and has been for many years, so we can think of them as any hostages we capture as prisoners of war.

    (*For a couple of years, after the liberation of Iraq, the Iranians behaved better, perhaps having been “scared straight”.)

    Jim Miller (a31430)

  63. Worth study: This Tablet interview with biographer David Garrow.

    It’s long, but worth your time.

    Sample Question and Answer:

    I remember the first time I was struck by Obama as being a personality who existed outside the normal confines of American politics was when I went out to Denver for his acceptance speech in 2008.

    I think Barack in that winter of ‘08, ‘09, realized there was no way that his presidency could actually live up to the expectations. And I think even the fanboy journalists would acknowledge, under a little bit of pressure, that it ended up being an underwhelming, disappointing presidency. It will, in the long run, be seen as a failed presidency because of the international failures.

    (I would say that the domestic failures were of the same order of magnitude.)

    Jim Miller (a31430)

  64. Kerch bridge hit again. Good.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  65. Desatan campaign paid 95,000 dollars to religious leader in Iowa to show support for him at rallies in Iowa. Didn’t help desatan booed off stage at Iowa fair. Wait till he tries campaigning in blue states the gays will be waiting for him!

    asset (1b0b86)

  66. On the ransom for the Iranian hostages: I repeat my suggestion that we collect hostages from enemy nations like Iran, for any future swaps. ………

    In some ways we already do that, we call them federal prisoners. In the Beverly Griner swap, the Russians got Victor Bout back, a long time goal. And the current deal with Iran will result in the return of five Iranians convicted of violating sanctions against Iran.

    The money being transferred to Iran is actually held by South Korea, which was held up by sanctions:

    Under the tentative agreement, the U.S. has given its blessing to South Korea to convert frozen Iranian assets held there from the South Korean currency, the won, to euros.
    ………….
    Iran does not want the frozen assets in South Korean won, which is less convertible than euros or U.S. dollars. U.S. officials say that while South Korea is on board with the transfer it is concerned that converting $6 or $7 billion in won into other currencies at once will adversely affect its exchange rate and economy.

    Thus, South Korea is proceeding slowly, converting smaller amounts of the frozen assets for the eventual transfer to the central bank in Qatar. In addition, as the money is transferred, it has to avoid touching the U.S. financial system where it could become subject to American sanctions. So a complicated and time-consuming series of transfers through third-country banks has been arranged.

    The Biden Administration says there are no known Americans remaining in Iran as prisoners.

    Rip Murdock (25822e)

  67. Belgium released an Iranian diplomat convicted of terrorism in exchange for a Belgian aid worker in May 2023.

    Rip Murdock (25822e)

  68. As did France in 2020.

    Rip Murdock (25822e)

  69. As did the Trump Administration. It’s the cost of doing business around the world.

    I expect the Republican presidential candidates to complain about it during their debate, but I don’t expect them to provide a realistic alternative, other than not negotiating at all.

    Rip Murdock (25822e)

  70. You’ll be paying for it through your taxes for years.

    I haven’t paid federal taxes for the last few years. I pay state property and sales taxes, but those are pretty much fixed.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  71. I’m seeing noises about states treating conviction on the J6 charges invoking the 14th Amendment disqualification. Or even without a conviction.

    https://reason.com/volokh/2023/08/10/trump-is-disqualified-from-being-on-any-election-ballots/

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  72. I would target the relatives of the thugs currently running Iran, and other such places.

    We’d have to remove some sanctions first, so they could enter the US. THEN we arrest them for spying.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  73. Russia’s method is to grab them afterwards and send their cojones back home in a jar.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  74. @kevin@75 I’m not sure how comfortable I am with various states making arbitrary decisions about who is or is not an insurrectionist. I really really really do not like Trump. He’s in the bottom .01% of US citizens that I think should be president below a rather large number of actual convicted criminals. However, declaring him ineligible without some kind of formal declaration of lawlessness and/or dereliction seems like bad precedent.

    Nic (896fdf)

  75. “I haven’t paid federal taxes for the last few years. ”

    Is KevinM REALLY Hunter Biden?!!

    AJ_Liberty (0dbaf5)

  76. I have filed taxes but Trump’s huge increase in the standard deduction, along with not having a mortgage to cover, small cap gains not being taxed, and SS being mostly exempt has made my tax due zero. Except for a year I owed self-employment tax.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  77. There have been years I paid 6 figures, but not recently.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  78. Nic, I happen to agree, for a number of reasons.

    1) Unless there is a conviction of something that is at least arguably “insurrection” or “rebellion”, or incitement, or aid-and-comfort of same, I don’t think it’s optional.

    2) Interfering with an activity of Congress may be a felony, but it’s not “insurrection” — there is a law dealing with that, and they did not use it.

    3) Disqualifying him from the ballot will be an overreach, even for a state like California. It will lead to widespread violence and many many deaths.

    4) The new version of the Electoral Vote Act has a provision where they can deny election to a candidate if Congress claims the “insurrection” clause applies. Even a candidate who has a majority of electoral votes. No points for seeing the irony there.

    But it WILL come up.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  79. @75, it seems a Mr Fantastic stretch that section 3 would be self executing and that Secretaries of State could just say that it was self evident that Trump is guilty of insurrection and boot him off. I’m sure the article seemed like a good idea when he started it….and maybe too much Bordeaux red

    AJ_Liberty (0dbaf5)

  80. Trump has 20-40 million die-hard supporters. They all own guns. Dumping Trump from the ballot isn’t worth it. Really it’s not. He has to lose for other reasons than a court decision. This isn’t Iran.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  81. AJ,

    He’s not alone. Check your Google.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  82. Steven Calabresi is not just some yokel, you know. A co-founder of the Federalist Society, among other things.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  83. Alternatively, the GOP could simply declare that Trump is not eligible for the GOP nomination, based on conduct unbecoming a politician, or maybe moral turpitude. His name cannot be place in nomination and delegates awarded to him by state parties will not be seated at the convention.

    This is less bad.

    It would result in a three-way race, which Biden would likely win. But 1) maybe not, and 2) the GOP would be rid of Donald Trump.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  84. Here’s another Volokh Conspiracy post by another respected conservative legal scholar, Will Baude (I’m personally a fan of his writing). This one summarizes Baude’s pending Penn law review article, co-authored with yet another respected conservative legal scholar, Michael Stokes Paulsen, making essentially the same argument Calabresi does.

    And here’s a response to Calebresi, Baude, and Paulson, from Michael McConnell, among the handful of most respected conservative legal scholars (Baude once clerked for McConnell), disputing Calabresi, Baude and Paulson’s conclusions.

    I haven’t read Baude and Paulson’s article, much less all the history or case law, so I don’t feel qualified to say who has the stronger legal argument. But I hope McConnell is right. Trying to keep Trump off the ballot without trial and conviction for insurrection feels like a dangerous, burn the village to save it overreach.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  85. “Oh, there might be other crimes (e.g. kidnapping, Mann Act, fraud, etc) but not the ones asset listed.”

    Statement from the Texas Division of Emergency Management:

    “Once the child presented with health concerns, the bus pulled over and security personnel on board called 9-1-1 for emergency attention. After the ambulance arrived, the bilingual security personnel translated for the parents and the paramedics who were providing care for the child. The child was then taken to a local hospital to receive additional medical attention and was later pronounced deceased.”

    The parents were present and made the conscious decision to board the bus.

    lloyd (b7a757)

  86. @89 when rudolph hoess used that argument the jurists did seem all that impressed with it.

    asset (7a53d2)

  87. “Steven Calabresi is not just some yokel, you know.”

    And appeal to authority only gets you so far. We’ve jumped into this rabbit hole, because Congress has not clarified what it wants from section 3. We can only speculate as to why, but probably because they thought if we were treading so precipitously close to insurrection at the highest level, the country likely had bigger problems.

    The issue is do we really want 50 secretaries of state creating standards of what constitutes an insurrection….vice a mob riot…and then apply that standard to a major party candidate and potentially deny that candidate’s supporters the right to vote for him? Now you might say, well, the candidate can appeal the decision to the courts where he will get his due process and then even potentially run it all the way to SCOTUS who might square the entire exercise. Congress would then likely get involved and create statutes for any future consideration of section 3.

    Sounds fun if you like drama. How long does it all take? Even with expedited appeals like in Nixon, I would anticipate a lot of discovery and, in the end, a process that would have to in essence prove criminal insurrection….with a high burden because of the civil rights implications. Could it be resolved by March primaries? Probably not. Swell.

    I empathize with the desire to flush Trump from our memory banks, but is a cuter-than-most novel legal theory the way to do this? We have 54% of the GOP saying…despite a 4th indictment set to fall….that they want to give him another shot. That he was robbed and that the DoJ is just being mean to him….like that terrible guy in Manhattan and the partisan “witch” in Georgia. It also smells a bit of desperation. Wouldn’t it be better to just beat him electorally…and cover him with the stench of being a loser…again? Beat him decisively so the GOP could not consider someone who pu$$y-footed around with stealing electoral votes.

    And what if he is not found guilty of insurrection upon appeal? Then a segment of the electorate will go from aggrieved to super-Guns-of-Navarone-aggrieved, which exactly helps us how? If Trump is clearly guilty of insurrection, then he should have separately been charged with it. That he wasn’t tells me that it’s a tough haul and that conspiracy to disrupt a Congressional proceeding is a hard enough sell. I’ll roll with Michael McConnell’s arguments because it gives our democracy one more clean shot at resolving Trump without igniting civil war. Prove what’s on the plate, that ought to finish it.

    AJ_Liberty (0dbaf5)

  88. Mr. Somin is correct: No, the illegal immigration across our southern is not an invasion. An excerpt.

    [S]ome have argued that the Guarantee Clause of the Constitution, gives state and federal governments the authority to use military force to block such migration. The Clause states that “The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence….”

    As a matter of logic and common sense, the equation of illegal migration and invasion makes little sense. Invasion involves large-scale use of force (or at least threat of force) to seize territory. Russia’s attack on Ukraine is an invasion. Migrants crossing a border in search of freedom and opportunity are not….

    The text of the Guarantee Clause suggests that it refers to violent attack. “Invasion” is paired with “domestic Violence” (which here obviously means uprisings against the state government, not the modern use of the term to denote violence in family and intimate relationships). [Andrew] Hyman also cites the provision of the Constitution indicating that “No State shall, without the Consent of Congress … engage in War, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent Danger as will not admit of delay.” But the “invasion” referred to here is pretty obviously an armed attack. Otherwise, it would not make sense to “engage in War” as a response to it. I think it obvious that the “war” referred to here is a literal war against a foreign power, not a metaphorical war, such as the War on Drugs or the War on Poverty. This Clause is an exception to the constitutional requirement that only Congress has the power to declare war….

    As they say, words have meaning. Regarding Madison…

    Those who cite Madison in support of equating immigration and invasion ignore the one time he directly addressed this very question: the Report of 1800, which rebutted claims that the Alien Friends Act of 1798 (which gave the president broad power to expel non-citizens) was authorized by the Invasion Clause. There, Madison explicitly rejected the idea that immigration qualifies as invasion, emphasizing that “Invasion is an operation of war.” I discuss Madison’s Report of 1800 in greater detail later in the piece, and also in follow-up posts responding to Andrew Hyman and Rob Natelson (see here and here).

    It may be true, as Texas claims, that an “invasion” need not be an attack by a foreign government. But it does have to be a large-scale armed assault. Immigration or smuggling don’t qualify.

    The problem, as it’s been for years, is law enforcement (or the lack) and the need for a comprehensive law to address demand.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  89. The only people who should disqualify Trump (absent a conviction for insurrection or sedition) are Republican primary voters.

    Rip Murdock (25822e)

  90. The Washington Post’s resident “fact-checker” Glenn Kessler, who has been carrying Joe Biden’s water and trying unsuccessfully to pooh-pooh our reporting on Hunter Biden’s laptop from day one, has had to issue SIX humiliating corrections – which he calls “updates” – across his “fact-checks” about the April 2015 dinner at Cafe Milano where Hunter introduced his dad, then VP Joe Biden, to his Ukrainian, Russian and Kazakh benefactors.

    As Real Clear investigations reports, Kessler was awarded the Sigma Delta Chi award for fact checks in 2022 about Hunter Biden. The Society of Professional Journalists said Kessler gave “a very detailed, balanced analysis of a complicated and horrifically convoluted story that spawned a thousand rumors and falsehoods.”

    What a joke. Says it all about the state of journalism today.

    DC’s own Pravda.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  91. Kevin, the gop base WANTS Trump. At this point most of the GOP state leadership agrees with them, or at least understands what the base wants.

    Time123 (ab6920)

  92. Paul,

    it’s an invasion, aided and abetted by a traitorous political class to remake America in a socialist vision.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  93. it’s an invasion, aided and abetted by a traitorous political class to remake America in a socialist vision.

    I remember when Obama declared a War on Cynicism, which itself was a political maneuver, when there’s more of a need for a War on Hyperbole, now more than ever.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  94. NJRob (eb56c3) — 8/13/2023 @ 8:49 am

    I agree that it is an invasion in the broad sense that a fellow animal (man is an animal) is considered invasive when it moves into another species habitat – sure, go ahead and say the entire Earth is man’s habitat and then there will be no such thing as “invasive,” for anything.

    We will then have an argument to eliminate “personal space” by extension. An amusing question; is “invasive species” another form of “white privilege?”

    felipe (5879c1)

  95. …itself a political cynical maneuver…

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  96. I’m curious, for those here that would likely vote for Trump in a Trump/Biden rematch, so, NJRob, BuhDuh, whembly, and maybe felipe, why do you think Trump took the classified documents and actively tried to keep them from being collected?

    The question isn’t whether it’s somehow worse or not worse than what Hillary did with her home-brew server, but what would be an explanation for why a President leaving office would collect up and leave with documents related to vulnerabilities of our and our allied nuclear systems? And then when called out, refuse to return them?

    We saw that Pence and Biden had kept documents and were not dilligent about their handling. So there is a systemic problem of accountability. And with Hillary and General Powell, a sloppiness of working with technology. But why did Trump do it when he could have just assigned someone to return anything that was classified? And how does that behavior comport with the head of the Executive branch?

    AJ_Liberty (0dbaf5)

  97. Alternatively, the GOP could simply declare that Trump is not eligible for the GOP nomination, based on conduct unbecoming a politician, or maybe moral turpitude. His name cannot be place in nomination and delegates awarded to him by state parties will not be seated at the convention.

    LOL! Republican Party political suicide fantasy camp. Trump’s approval among Republicans in last week’s Morning Consult poll is 81%.

    Rip Murdock (25822e)

  98. If there is an invasion at the Southern border, then Congress should authorize the use of deadly force against the invaders.

    Rip Murdock (807fd2)

  99. Rip Murdock (807fd2) — 8/13/2023 @ 10:04 am

    Or at least occupy, for example, a 10-mile wide strip on the Mexican side of the border.

    Rip Murdock (25822e)

  100. Kevin, the gop base WANTS Trump

    Define “base.” The makeup of that base changed in 2016, so that argument is mostly circular.

    Another way to put it is that the hijackers still want Trump.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  101. We’ve jumped into this rabbit hole, because Congress has not clarified what it wants from section 3.

    Actually, they did, and dangerously so. The new Electoral Count Act contains a provision that section 3 is a valid reason to disallow electoral votes and/or electoral voters.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  102. And what if he is not found guilty of insurrection upon appeal?

    Or pardoned, for that matter.

    At that point his ability to hold office is reinstated. But a guilty verdict, while in effect, has consequences.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  103. @91: I happen to agree with all of that, AJ. I think this is a VERY dangerous idea. I’m not appealing to authority, just saying that the people pushing this are not easily dismissed as crackpots.

    The fact that serious people are talking about this is worrisome, and if you look at Google, it’s widespread.

    Attacking free elections in order to save them is terribly ironic, but even the Electoral Count Act has this idea embedded in it now. IF you think kicking Trump of the ballot would be, um, divisive, what do you suppose Congress disallowing his victory would be?

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  104. like that terrible guy in Manhattan

    That was worse than a mistake, it was a blunder. It is so obviously trumped up that even people who hate Trump shake their heads.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  105. If there is an invasion at the Southern border, then Congress should authorize the use of deadly force against the invaders.

    Congress doesn’t have to — the President has that power already as CinC. The governor of a state has the power to repel invaders that are presently in his state.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  106. Or at least occupy, for example, a 10-mile wide strip on the Mexican side of the border.

    Eventually, you need the next 10 miles. Repeat as necessary. We need an immigration treaty with Mexico that legitimatizes current residents and provides Americans with greater access to Mexico. Maybe we could get Baja. Wonderful climate.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  107. If there is an invasion at the Southern border, then Congress should authorize the use of deadly force against the invaders.

    Congress doesn’t have to — the President has that power already as CinC. The governor of a state has the power to repel invaders that are presently in his state.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 8/13/2023 @ 10:29 am

    Not based on the analysis posted #92!by Paul Montagu.

    And if Gov. Abbott has that authority, why doesn’t he use it? Killing a few migrants would certainly have a deterrent value.

    As far as invading/occupying Mexico, it’s been endorsed by most of the major Republican candidates.

    Rip Murdock (25822e)

  108. why do you think Trump took the classified documents and actively tried to keep them from being collected?

    Any POTUS would take documents they he thought were his. The reason for preventing any repossession could be as mean as why anyone would wish to retain “their stuff” to such lofty reasons as “security” (see any dept head who refuses to provide documents to, say, Congress)

    felipe (5e2a04)

  109. Heh, Trump should have immediately returned every document, redacted! “There you go.”

    felipe (5e2a04)

  110. A Warning:

    ………
    (Michigan State Rep. Matt Maddock (R)), whose wife was one of 16 “fake electors” charged with felony crimes in Michigan last month, told the crowd that it had been a “difficult” time for them recently. The event — billed as the “Free The 16 Electors Poolside Party!” — was held at the Maddocks’ home to raise legal defense funds for the fake electors, according to a copy of the invitation.

    “If the government continues to weaponize these departments against conservatives, and the citizens and the taxpayers, what’s going to happen to this country? Does anyone have any idea, if this doesn’t stop?” Maddock is heard asking in the recording (first reported by The Messenger).
    …………
    “Someone’s going to get so pissed off, they’re going to shoot someone,” Maddock continued, according to the recording. “Or we’re going have a civil war or some sort of revolution. That’s where this is going. And when that happens, we’re going to get squashed.”
    ………….
    …………His wife, Meshawn Maddock, is one of 16 Republicans who were charged with forgery and other felonies last month by Michigan Attorney General Dana Nessel, the first and so far only criminal prosecution against Trump electors. At the fundraiser, Matt Maddock compared prosecuting Trump electors to Nazis’ attempts to subdue Jewish people before leading them into gas chambers during the Holocaust.

    “They want to make damn sure that anyone who questions the election or disputes the election in 2024 is threatened by what they’re doing to our electors and other people throughout this nation — that you will not say anything,” Matt Maddock told the crowd. “You are going to shut the eff up and you are going to walk into that gas chamber. That’s what they want, because that’s what’s coming for us.”

    According to documents from Nessel’s office, the 16 fake electors charged last month not only falsely declared duly elected status, but they also falsely claimed they had “convened and organized in the State Capitol” — the location where such proceedings must legally be held — despite meeting at state GOP headquarters instead.
    ………….

    Rip Murdock (25822e)

  111. Not based on the analysis posted #92!by Paul Montagu.

    He argues that it’s not an invasion, which does not pertain to a hypothetical “invasion.”

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  112. why do you think Trump took the classified documents and actively tried to keep them from being collected?

    Because he thought he was really still president?

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  113. About those 16 electors … Were they the electors on Trump’s slate had he won Michigan?

    This is what confuses me about this whole thing. The assertion that “we had to have a slate prepared in case the state changed its count” is nonsense as they had electors named ahead of time in each state. It’s only when they claim to have been “duly elected” that it’s fraud.

    If they were not the proposed GOP electors to begin with, then wtf? The real electors told them to pound sand?

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  114. More on Trump’s Fake Electors:

    A lawyer allied with President Donald J. Trump first laid out a plot to use false slates of electors to subvert the 2020 election in a previously unknown internal campaign memo that prosecutors are portraying as a crucial link in how the Trump team’s efforts evolved into a criminal conspiracy.

    The existence of the Dec. 6, 2020, memo came to light in last week’s indictment of Mr. Trump, though its details remained unclear. But a copy obtained by The New York Times shows for the first time that the lawyer, Kenneth Chesebro, acknowledged from the start that he was proposing “a bold, controversial strategy” that the Supreme Court “likely” would reject in the end.

    But even if the plan did not ultimately pass legal muster at the highest level, Mr. Chesebro argued that it would achieve two goals. It would focus attention on claims of voter fraud and “buy the Trump campaign more time to win litigation that would deprive Biden of electoral votes and/or add to Trump’s column.”
    ……….
    “I believe that what can be achieved on Jan. 6 is not simply to keep Biden below 270 electoral votes,” Mr. Chesebro wrote in the newly disclosed memo. “It seems feasible that the vote count can be conducted so that at no point will Trump be behind in the electoral vote count unless and until Biden can obtain a favorable decision from the Supreme Court upholding the Electoral Count Act as constitutional, or otherwise recognizing the power of Congress (and not the president of the Senate) to count the votes.”
    ………….
    While another lawyer — John Eastman, described as Co-Conspirator 2 in the indictment — became a key figure who championed the plan and worked more directly with Mr. Trump on it, Mr. Chesebro was an architect of it. He was first enlisted by the Trump campaign in Wisconsin to help with a legal challenge to the results there.

    Prosecutors are still hearing evidence related to the investigation, even after charges were leveled against Mr. Trump, according to people familiar with the matter. ………
    …………..

    Rip Murdock (25822e)

  115. So, the idea was this:

    1) As Congress gathered to count the state’s votes, Pence was supposed to gavel down the signed, sealed and delivered EVs from 7 or 8 states and declare that another set of electoral votes were to be counted?

    2) Congress would accept this, rather than, say, voting down the ruling then adjourning to their own chambers to consider a quick double impeachment/conviction?

    3) And then the president would nationalize the state guards, declare martial law, and “restore order”?

    How could this fail?

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  116. About those 16 electors … Were they the electors on Trump’s slate had he won Michigan?

    No.

    As part of the push to undermine Biden’s victory, Trump supporters gathered inside the then-Michigan Republican Party headquarters on Dec. 14, 2020, and signed a certificate, claiming to cast the state’s 16 electoral votes for Trump.

    Eventually, the false certificate was sent to the National Archives and Congress. The document inaccurately claimed the Trump electors had met inside the Michigan Capitol. However, they hadn’t. Biden’s electors convened inside the Capitol, and the building was closed to others on Dec. 14, 2020.
    ………
    Each of the 16 electors is charged with eight felonies: two counts of election law forgery; two counts of forgery; and one count each of uttering and publishing, conspiracy to commit forgery, conspiracy to commit election law forgery and conspiracy to commit forgery.

    Conspiracy to commit forgery and conspiracy to commit uttering and publishing, which carry the steepest penalties, are both punishable by up to 14 years in prison and a $10,000 fine.
    ………….

    Uttering and publishing” is defined in Michigan as when a person

    utters and publishes as true a false, forged, altered, or counterfeit record, instrument, or other writing listed in section 248 knowing it to be false, altered, forged, or counterfeit with intent to injure or defraud is guilty of a felony punishable by imprisonment for not more than 14 years.

    Rip Murdock (cfce69)

  117. “conspiracy to commit forgery ” is listed twice. I think that “forgery” and “election law forgery” refer to the same act and all election law forgery is “forgery.” I dislike overcharging.

    BUT .. that quote does not answer the question. Before the election, 16 Michigan Republicans were up for election as electors, and had Trump prevailed, they would have been duly elected. Are these the same 16 people? While I don’t think that would let them off the hook, they would be claiming one fewer lie.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  118. Any POTUS would take documents they he thought were his.

    Any POTUS would have been briefed–and have been briefed–by National Archives staff on the Presidential Records Act, and Trump was no exception.
    There is no scenario where national defense materials can be considered personal records, felipe, and they don’t fall under the PRA because they’re agency records.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  119. Not based on the analysis posted #92!by Paul Montagu.

    The way I read Somin is that the governor cannot use the National Guard to invade Mexico or create a “buffer zone” inside Mexican territory, but he can use them to keep the peace on the American side. I doubt he can deploy National Guard members to do the job already tasked by the Border Patrol, but I don’t have clarity on that issue.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  120. One of the Congressional Republicans now attacking Merrick Garland for doing what they demanded he do.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  121. Are these the same 16 people?

    Apparently yes, see paragraph 11 here. However, on Nov. 23, 2020 Biden was certified the winner in Michigan (paragraph 13) which rendered their claim to be “duly elected Presidential electors” null and void.

    Rip Murdock (dbaf46)

  122. lurker (cd7cd4) — 8/13/2023 @ 3:54 pm

    Why is anyone surprised? There are no circumstances in the universe that would have the Republicans agree with anything the Biden Administration has done.

    Rip Murdock (dbaf46)

  123. They requested Weiss be appointed special prosecutor before he tried to thwart the law and give Hunter Biden a sweetheart deal immunizing him from all his crimes.

    You left out a lot of context lurker to win a supposed point. Why is that?

    NJRob (29949f)

  124. @125:

    Thanks for the link. Apparently 14 of the original 16 claimed to have been elected. Two declined and were replaced.

    18. On December 14, 2020, 14 of the 16 the Republican Party candidates for electormet at the Michigan Republican Party Headquarters located at 520 Seymour Ave.,Lansing 48933, and executed a document entitled, “Certificate of The Votes OfThe 2020 Electors From Michigan.” Among those signing the document were 14of the elector candidates who had been selected at the Republican partyconvention. Candidates Terri Lynn Land and Gerald Wall did not attend themeeting. Kenneth Thompson was selected to replace Terri Lynn Land, and JamesRenner was selected to replace Gerald Wall. Both Thompson and Renner signedthe document. Neither Land nor Wall signed the document.

    The competing narrative, where Eastman was sating that electors needed to be conditionally approved “just in case” is hogwash of course. This process was not just a fraud, it was an attempt to usurp the office of the president. It may not be treason, but whatever it is ought to trigger A14.3

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  125. Rob,

    The alternative would have been someone more in the tank, who would have had to start over from scratch.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  126. “So, the idea was this:

    1) As Congress gathered to count the state’s votes, Pence was supposed to gavel down the signed, sealed and delivered EVs from 7 or 8 states and declare that another set of electoral votes were to be counted?

    2) Congress would accept this, rather than, say, voting down the ruling then adjourning to their own chambers to consider a quick double impeachment/conviction?

    3) And then the president would nationalize the state guards, declare martial law, and “restore order”?

    How could this fail?”

    The plan was that the, with the 7 or 8 states having contested ballots, Pence would just not count them. At this point Trump would have a lead in the remaining ballots, but neither would have 270 votes. So Trump is either the winner with the most uncontested votes, or the vote goes to the House where each state gets 1 vote. There were 26 Republican controlled states, so Trump wins.

    Details here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastman_memos

    Davethulhu (e2245a)

  127. From Jeff Sessions to David Weiss, the number of Trump appointees who have disappointed the Don is astonishing.

    nk (e5307d)

  128. Paul Montagu (d52d7d) — 8/13/2023 @ 2:49 pm

    You try so hard, Paul. Good for you.

    Any POTUS would take documents they he thought were his.

    I don’t see “national defense materials” in my statement. But you wanted to refute what I wrote by taking something you thought and refuted that. Something easy to do.

    Was it too much to expect your comment to point out that I never answered the question of “why would Trump*,” or to understand that the question did not ask for a good reason.

    *I like Kevin’s guess! I don’t read minds, and any answer would be a biased guess.

    felipe (5879c1)

  129. nk (e5307d) — 8/13/2023 @ 6:00 pm

    When commenters became concerned about a possible Trump presidency after he secured the R nomination, I predicted that he would be thwarted by his own admin should he try anything crazy. The number of people who left his employ and those in the “deep state” proved me correct – your astute comment is just more icing on my cake. I’ll not eat this cake, though, I’ll just look at it and have it, too.

    felipe (5879c1)

  130. felipe (5879c1) — 8/13/2023 @ 6:54 pm

    The documents that Trump stored in his bathroom (among other places) included “national defense information” and are part of his indictment. There is nothing in the US Code that would allow Trump to consider these documents listed in his indictment as “personal records”.

    Trump is charged under 18 USC 793(e), which makes it a crime to possess “information relating to national defense”, which covers the documents listed in counts 1-31 of his indictment (pages 28-33) as well as his superseding indictment.

    Rip Murdock (dbaf46)

  131. I predicted that (Trump) would be thwarted by his own admin should he try anything crazy.

    LOL! Given that his “A” team of sycophants (with a few exceptions) have burned their bridges with Trump, his “B” team of sycophants would more than willing to what he wants, especially with a Republican majority Congress to back him up.

    That’s a thin reed to place your hope.

    Rip Murdock (dbaf46)

  132. felipe: “Any POTUS would take documents they he thought were his.”

    Does that mean deluded, ignorant, narcissistic, criminal, or all of the above?

    felipe: “I predicted that he would be thwarted by his own admin should he try anything crazy.”

    I guess than means it’s a good thing that Mike Pence will again be his VP, General Kelly will be his chief of staff, Jeff Sessions will be his attorney general, and Pat Cipollone will return as his White House Counsel. It’s a true comfort and blessing that all these people will volunteer to serve again….and there won’t be any of those grifters who fooled Trump into all of that crazy January 6th nonsense….

    AJ_Liberty (9aaa45)

  133. I agree with felipe. With my own twist. If Trump were to win, he’d get very little interest from top tier talent. This is a greater danger than a Trump Presidency. Biden and Reagan proved the Presidency and the USA can chug along as long as talented people step up. Trump may wind up with talented people (by accident), but they will be young and or green at DC and global shenanigans

    steveg (59c6e8)

  134. Kevin M: “I’m not appealing to authority, just saying that the people pushing this are not easily dismissed as crackpots.”

    Certainly Will Baude is no crackpot, but this is what university professors do from time to time. It’s a weird scholarship, wrapped up in advocacy of what they might like the law to do. It’s useful to identify the gaps in the law and, I fear, it’s a bit of tongue-in-cheek amusement. I doubt these solid legal minds are actually advocating for this beyond the mental exercise. They’re likely just signaling whose side they’re on….and it ain’t the guy orchestrating the electoral chaos….

    AJ_Liberty (9aaa45)

  135. That’s a thin reed to place your hope.

    The Senate can always tell a President Trump that he won’t get confirmed any nominees that don’t pass muster with them. Plus, a second-term President Donald Trump would be an immediate lame duck — even lamer than the usual lame duck — and so it’s possible that talented people will no longer fear him and will be willing to ignore him when he makes stupid requests and check his more ridiculous impulses. Really, at this point all Donald Trump wants is the ego salve of being elected again, so he probably won’t care all that much about policy in a second term anyway.

    JVW (1ad43e)

  136. @104 depends how you define hijackers. The populists would say they took the party back from wealthy corporate and conservative media hijackers. Nixon’s southern strategy and reagan’s welcoming of southern white trash democrat populists in 1980 into the party at philadelphia mississippi where the 3 civil rights workers were murdered. Lee atwater’s willie horton ads were welcomed not denouced so now you got a problem with populists because they are the majority of the republican party and the wealthy can’t hijack the party with their money?

    asset (f3b144)

  137. You try so hard, Paul. Good for you.

    That sounds awfully similar to “bless your heart”, so f-ck you very much, felipe.
    I get it. You don’t give a rip that your boy Trump violated the Espionage Act, but violate it he did.
    You said “Any POTUS would take documents they he thought were his”, but he had no right to take the documents in the first 32 counts of the indictment. It’s not about what Trump feels are his.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  138. They requested Weiss be appointed special prosecutor before he tried to thwart the law and give Hunter Biden a sweetheart deal immunizing him from all his crimes.

    You left out a lot of context lurker to win a supposed point. Why is that?

    NJRob (29949f) — 8/13/2023 @ 4:15 pm

    In the absence of evidence that Weiss tried to “thwart the law,” evidence you notably fail to provide, I’ll continue to assume his good faith, just as I assumed it when partisan Democrats were challenging it because he was appointed by Trump. So if you want to know why I “leave out” cascades of question-begging assertions that would confirm your biases, the defect is in your inquiry. How was it Patterico described you? “Blinded by partisanship?” “Broken by partisanship?” I can’t remember his exact words, but I suspect the answer to many of your loaded “Why is that?” questions lies there.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  139. Lurker again playing games when knows “appointed by Trump” for a Delaware attorney means nominated by the 2 far leftist Senators from Delaware. You failed to mention that. Why is that?

    You also failed to mention the judge rejected the rigged deal Weiss signed off on. Why?

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  140. Paul going beyond the pale attacking a kind soul like felipe. But he attacks Trump so…

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  141. Paul going beyond the pale attacking a kind soul like felipe. But he attacks Trump so…

    Piss off, Rob. Stop being that asshole.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  142. “Any POTUS would take documents they he thought were his”

    To break it down a little further, felipe is mindreading, that any president would think that, when the fact is that every president since Reagan was briefed by National Archives staff as to what are presidential records, what are personal records and what falls outside the Presidential Records Act, such as agency records, i.e., national defense and classified materials. Only Trump has had this trouble, no other president has.
    Two, what a POTUS thinks is his is irrelevant, particular when it involves agency records, which are outside the PRA.
    Three, Trump overtly stated, falsely, that the classified documents were his personal property, which is complete bullsh-t. Trump not only “thought” it, he said it out loud, citing a Presidential Records Act that he most likely didn’t read and patently does not understand.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  143. The Senate can always tell a President Trump that he won’t get confirmed any nominees that don’t pass muster with them.

    They better not adjourn then, and those games they play without adjourning (but no business possible for weeks) may actually be adjournment as far as recess appointments are concerned. Note that a recess appointment in 2025 lasts until January 2029.

    And of course, they can just be run by “acting” officials.

    “The only winning move is not to play.”

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  144. You also failed to mention the judge rejected the rigged deal Weiss signed off on. Why?

    Weiss signed off on it because his people had been replaced by Bidenistas and his bosses wanted that deal to go through. A LOT of thought had gone into that bogus plea deal and it was the best deal that he was going to be allowed to make.

    The is NOTHING good that comes from replacing Weiss at this point. Everything else is worse. Let’s see what happens. Prediction: Weiss has FU powers now that he didn’t have before.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  145. I’m going out on a limb here and say that neither The Presidential Records Act, classification/declassification rules, nor any other rules, were in Trump’s mind as he packed stuff away. He would have taken the “football” if they didn’t have that nailed down.

    He left the WH grudgingly and full of plans for his triumphant return. There were no “reasons.”

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  146. NJRob (eb56c3) — 8/13/2023 @ 9:21 pm

    Q.E.D. Broken by partisanship.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  147. Hank sheinkopf was being interviewed about the primary loss of eliot engel. He said while not helpful the black lives matter riots were a symptom more dangerous to jews and wealthy whites. One area he pointed out was student loans and the effect they have on young middle class whites and capitalism. Economic inequality between the minorities are a threat both to jews and rich whites. The program gives sheinkopf’s views on whats happening because of the tax laws put in place for the wealthy. I think you should watch it to see what the poor are planing to do to the wealthy.

    asset (f3b144)

  148. I’ll give felipe a bit of a break because he’s previously described that he’s a single-issue voter. He’s pro-life and if there’s a clear distinction on that issue, that’s the end of the question. Everything else is subsidiary and rationalizable. I disagree because as we see, the President does more than appoint justices and attend marches. He owns the bully pulpit and speaks for all of the country. He has the ability to sway the moral conscience, set the tone, and recast truth. This appears to be a case of the ends justifying the means.

    I see that NJRob can’t even bring himself to talk about the classified documents case, too much off script. I suspect BuhDuh and whembly will follow suit. Fox says talk about Hunter, two-tiered justice, and continue down conspiracy lane about Russia collusion, J6, and Joe Biden. It’s one thing to have a rational conversation….it’s another to avoid it at every turn.

    AJ_Liberty (9aaa45)

  149. @100

    I’m curious, for those here that would likely vote for Trump in a Trump/Biden rematch, so, NJRob, BuhDuh, whembly, and maybe felipe, why do you think Trump took the classified documents and actively tried to keep them from being collected?

    I’m not convinced he kept it for nefarious reasons… I think it’s a lot of incompetence, Trump’s braggidocius, Biden admin stretching letter of the law to “get him” and Trump’s inability to read the F’n room.

    Sheer cluster.

    whembly (5f7596)

  150. @152 I suspect BuhDuh and whembly will follow suit.
    Because, my dear AJ, I simply do not trust the Biden administration acting on any good faith with respect to Trump’s document case. (or any case).

    They need to PROVE what Trump did, beyond a reasonable doubt.

    We only have one side of the story, and it’s the prosecution.

    So, I would appreciate, if you would extend a little grace and try to see other people’s perspective before using that large paint brush.

    whembly (5f7596)

  151. whembly,

    How did the Biden administration stretch the letter of the law on the espionage act? What I see is Trump’s nearly psychopathic refusal to comply with reasonable requests from the Archives for the return of documents.

    Appalled (3e68f7)

  152. @155

    whembly,

    How did the Biden administration stretch the letter of the law on the espionage act? What I see is Trump’s nearly psychopathic refusal to comply with reasonable requests from the Archives for the return of documents.

    Appalled (3e68f7) — 8/14/2023 @ 8:22 am

    First and foremost, we don’t know the evidence that the SCO is presenting in this case. So, I can’t say for certain they’re “stretching the law”.

    However, what I can say, is that this same SCO is stretching the law in the DC J6 case. So, I’m very suspicious of that. Because, its making be question the strength of the document case if he’s filing ANOTHER different case in J6 in DC.

    Secondly, I think the Biden administration took an opportunity to go pedal-to-the-metal in light speed against Trump. They’re setting all sorts of precedents for going hard after a former President, and it’ll be much, MUCH worse if there’s no conviction.

    whembly (5f7596)

  153. Paul, I think you should reconsider your comments about Filipe. He’s shown himself to be consistently kind and charitable in his interactions here. Not saying you need to agree with him, but if anyone here has earned an assumption of good faith it’s him.

    Time123 (1a868a)

  154. They need to PROVE what Trump did (in the Espionage Act indictment), beyond a reasonable doubt.

    We only have one side of the story, and it’s the prosecution.

    That is certainly true, but the simple proof is that documents containing “national defense information” were found in MAL that former President Trump was not authorized to possess. it is hard to see what legal arguments Trump’s defense can put forward in his defense. Declassifying documents “by thinking about it” probably won’t fly. He may try to argue the justification for the classification level of each document; we’ll see.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  155. Compared to other prosecutions for illegally retaining classified documents under the Espionage Act (and not involving spying), Trump is being treated like everyone else.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  156. Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 8/14/2023 @ 9:07 am

    Some of which were prosecuted during the Trump Administration.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  157. #159 — If we look at the Comey/Hillary standard (not mentioned here), Trump comes off worse. Hillary complied with government requests in the matter. Trump did not.

    Appalled (3e68f7)

  158. I’m fine with giving Trump a presumption of innocence. But the information presented in the indictment for the document case seems more then strong enough to support the indictment being justified.

    He may not be convicted, but I don’t see how you can look at the available evidence and conclude that it wasn’t a justified investigation or indictment.

    There may be more information revealed at a later date that shows that the indictment wasn’t justified. But afaik that information isn’t available today.

    Time123 (1a868a)

  159. @159, no. He’s properly been given a great degree of deference. If the FBI knew you or I had national security information in our basement there’s little chance they wouldn’t seize it immediately.

    Time123 (1a868a)

  160. We already know that the governmental response to the Maui fire was lacking, just as it was lacking in California’s 2018 Camp Fire.

    But I don’t think many “mainstream” journalists are rushing to hold the Democratic officals in Hawaii responsible, just as they ignored, for example, Governor Jerry Brown’s failures in the response to the Camp Fire.

    Nor are many of those journalists likely to take a harder look at the mistakes made in forest management in recent decades.

    (For me, the most startling part of Michael Shellenberger’s Apocalypse Never is his accusations against the Brown family, accusations that should get far more attention than they have.)

    Jim Miller (d2a9c8)

  161. @159, no. He’s properly been given a great degree of deference. If the FBI knew you or I had national security information in our basement there’s little chance they wouldn’t seize it immediately.

    Time123 (1a868a) — 8/14/2023 @ 9:15 am

    I agree. Two systems of justice.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  162. AJ_Liberty (9aaa45) — 8/14/2023 @ 4:26 am

    I see you can’t bother to talk about government corruption so you must support it.

    See how that works.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  163. Orange-boy got chutzpah:

    “How dare lowlife prosecutor, Deranged Jack Smith, break into my former Twitter account without informing me and, indeed, trying to completely hide this atrocity from me,” Trump wrote around 12:30 a.m. ET on Monday.

    nk (e5307d)

  164. If we look at the Comey/Hillary standard (not mentioned here), Trump comes off worse. Hillary complied with government requests in the matter. Trump did not.

    Appalled (3e68f7) — 8/14/2023 @ 9:13 am

    Was that when she gave classified documents to Weiner’s laptop?

    Or when she and the FBI destroyed her teams cell phones and granted them immunity?

    Or when she sent thousands of useless documents to hide the classified ones?

    Or when she used an illegal server to get around federal laws?

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  165. Weiss signed off on it because his people had been replaced by Bidenistas and his bosses wanted that deal to go through. A LOT of thought had gone into that bogus plea deal and it was the best deal that he was going to be allowed to make.

    The is NOTHING good that comes from replacing Weiss at this point. Everything else is worse. Let’s see what happens. Prediction: Weiss has FU powers now that he didn’t have before.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 8/13/2023 @ 10:18 pm

    Wanna bet?

    He still works for them which is why the rules require someone outside the chain of command to be appointed. But his career requires staying in the good grace of his superiors.

    Dog and pony show.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  166. Nor are many of those journalists likely to take a harder look at the mistakes made in forest management in recent decades.

    Such as several major fires in New Mexico started by the Forest Service.

    The U.S. Forest Service’s own prescribed burn started a sprawling 2022 wildfire that nearly reached Los Alamos, New Mexico, the agency acknowledged Monday in a report published after a lengthy investigation.

    The Cerro Pelado fire burned in dry, windy conditions across more than 60 square miles (155 square kilometers) and crept within a few miles of the city of Los Alamos and its companion U.S. national security lab. As the fire approached, schools closed and evacuation bags were packed before the flames tapered off.

    Investigators traced the wildfire to a burn of piles of forest debris commissioned by the Forest Service. The burn became a holdover fire, smoldering undetected under wet snow, with no signs of smoke or heat for months, said Southwestern Regional Forester Michiko Martin.

    The federal government already has acknowledged that it started the largest wildfire in state history, which charred more than 530 square miles (1,373 square kilometers) of the Rocky Mountain foothills east of Santa Fe, New Mexico, destroying homes and livelihoods.

    Examples of prescribed burns that escaped control include the 2000 Cerro Grande Fire that swept through residential areas of Los Alamos and across 12 square miles (31 square kilometers) of the laboratory — more than one-quarter of the campus. The fire destroyed more than 230 homes and 45 structures at the lab. In 2011, a larger and faster-moving fire burned fringes of the lab.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  167. But his career requires staying in the good grace of his superiors.

    His career is only helped by nailing Hunter to the wall. If he tries to please Biden, he will be widely seen as a suckup and his prospects outside of government will be poor. If he is resolute, however, the previous issues can be blamed on the Bidens and as a former USA and SC, he’ll have his pick of jobs.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  168. Libertarian leads after Argentina’s presidential election jungle primary.

    The MSM describes him as “far right” of course.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  169. Colleges Can Still Consider Race in Admissions Within Limits, Biden Administration Says

    The Biden administration offered detailed guidance for colleges navigating new restrictions on how they consider race in their admissions decisions, including providing examples of what types of essays would be allowed and how schools can recruit prospective students without running afoul of the law.

    The Education and Justice departments said in a joint release Monday that a university still could consider an applicant’s reflections on being the first Black violinist in his city’s youth orchestra, or an applicant’s discussion of how learning to cook traditional Hmong dishes from a family member sparked her passion for food and helped her connect to her heritage.

    “In short, institutions of higher education remain free to consider any quality or characteristic of a student that bears on the institution’s admission decision, such as courage, motivation, or determination, even if the student’s application ties that characteristic to their lived experience with race,” the administration said.

    Biden administration officials emphasized that schools can still pursue the goal of enrolling a diverse student body, and are allowed to use targeted outreach and recruiting initiatives. They said schools can consider race, as well as factors such as geography, financial resources and a parent’s education level, when creating such programs. For instance, they said, colleges can direct recruitment efforts at schools or districts that serve high concentrations of students of color or low-income students.

    The main limitation, the administration said, is that schools can’t provide targeted groups with preference in the admission process itself.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  170. gastropod
    noun ZOOLOGY
    a mollusk of the large class Gastropoda, such as a snail, slug, or whelk.

    The word gastropod comes from Greek and means “stomach foot,” a name that owes its existence to the unusual anatomy of snails. Snails have a broad flat muscular “foot” used for support and for forward movement.

    The Appetite That Walks.

    If he had commuted the death sentence of Lisa Marie Montgomery, he would have risen in my estimation to at least cockroach level. But she did not have $2 million to give to Giuliani.

    nk (6c45b4)

  171. His career is only helped by nailing Hunter to the wall. If he tries to please Biden, he will be widely seen as a suckup and his prospects outside of government will be poor. If he is resolute, however, the previous issues can be blamed on the Bidens and as a former USA and SC, he’ll have his pick of jobs.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 8/14/2023 @ 9:43 am

    What color is the sky in your world? Lawyers are routinely being banished from law firms for being hired to support Republican causes. On the other hand, look at the leftist radicals like Boudin who fall into plum jobs for toeing the line.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  172. #165

    Comey bent over backwards to avoid finding wilfulness in Hillary Clinton’s conduct and the article you link continues that approach. I don’t think I can agree with that.

    The basic issue I have with Trump, compared to Hillary, was the lack of any attempt to go oops, my bad, and correct the conduct. Instead, he doubled down and obstructed a lawful search warrent.

    As for NJRob — I think you may be recording as fact things Comey determined did not actually happen. Can’t say unless I dive into that rabbit hole, and I’m not interested in that. I’m one of the folks who believes Hillary should have been prosecuted in 2016.

    Appalled (3e68f7)

  173. What color is the sky in your world? Lawyers are routinely being banished from law firms for being hired to support Republican causes.

    Some firms, not others which may seek them out. Ted Olson did quite well long before he supported gay marriage, and he pissed off quite a few Democrats by winning Bush v Gore.

    You seem to inhabit the world of political outrage, not the real one.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  174. Paul, I think you should reconsider your comments about Filipe.

    I gave myself a 12-hour cooling off period, Time, and I’ve considered and reconsidered.
    felipe’s insults may be tactful, but they’re insults nonetheless, and this wasn’t the first time, hence my response. He should check his arrogance at the door. If anyone wants tact, hire a tactician, but this is a comment section.
    The point I’m contending here is this Clintonesque “everybody does it” defense, which isn’t even true because everybody did not do it, especially not the way Trump did it, and it implies that an ex-president’s thoughts and feelings about these materials somehow is more important than the rule of law.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  175. This is the link for indictment obsessives about what’s going on in Fulton County today. No indictments expected until tomorrow, though:

    https://www.ajc.com/news/live-updates/fulton-grand-jury-trump-investigation/#SHZJPUDQDZFYZPF5K42NRLQTNM

    One sour note — MAGA is not on the streets at the courthouse, but the Stop Cop City/ANTIFA idiots are.

    Appalled (3e68f7)

  176. The Fulton County court flipped up its skirt and showed a little leg, but then flipped it right down again.

    The two-page document cites the “Violation Of The Georgia Rico (Racketeer Influenced And Corrupt Organizations) Act,” “Solicitation Of Violation Of Oath By Public Officer,” “Conspiracy To Commit False Statements and Writings” and “Conspiracy To Commit Forgery in the First Degree,” among other charges listed.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  177. BTW, pardons in GA work differently than nationally. Gov. Kemp can’t get Trump off the hook.

    In Georgia, the power to pardon is vested under the state constitution to a Board of Pardons and Paroles, which requires that a sentence be completed at least five years prior to applying for a pardon.

    But this presumes that Trump would first be convicted, and then sentenced for longer than five years. The former is probable, IMO, but I question whether Trump would spend time behind bars, deserving as it would be.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  178. Trump might be sentenced to house arrest. Of course, the house would have to be in Georgia. Maybe in that northwest corner that MTG comes from. NathanBedfordForrestan or some such.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  179. This shows a screenshot of the withdrawn indictment. It includes
    • RICO
    • Solicitation of violation of oath by public officer (presumably Raffensperger)
    • Conspiracy to commit impersonating a public officer (Fake Electors?)
    • Conspiracy to commit forgery in the first degree (definitely the Fake Electors)
    • Conspiracy to commit false statements and writings
    • Filing false documents

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  180. Kevin M:

    There just needs to be space for Secret Service. Here is a possible spot:

    https://www.pinterest.com/pin/469711436143662484/

    Appalled (3e68f7)

  181. RIP Clarence Avant (92) aka The Black Godfather. Impresario and mentor in the sports, entertainment, and music industries.

    Overcoming many of the challenges hardships of segregation, he grew to prominence starting in the 1960s managing the careers of Lalo Schifrin and Jimmy Smith, along with pioneering blues artist Little Willie John, singer Sarah Vaughan and jazz producer Creed Taylor; the contract he negotiated with A&M Records for the latter put him on the music industry’s map as a dealmaker. In 1968, Avant orchestrated the sale of the legendary soul powerhouse Stax Records (although the deal did not go well for the company’s founders and it went bankrupt several years later).
    ………
    After moving to Los Angeles in the late ‘60s, Avant formed his own record company, Sussex Records, and signed legendary soul singer Bill Withers among other acts. He purchased KAGB-FM, making it the only Black owned FM radio station in Los Angeles at the time. He also worked closely with such legends as Muhammad Ali, for whom he secured a variety special on ABC; NFL Hall Of Famer Jim Brown, whom he helped become a film star; and Major League Baseball home-run record-breaker Hank Aaron, for whom he negotiated the largest endorsement deal in professional sports history at the time. “Without Clarence Avant, there is no Hank Aaron,” Aaron would later say in the documentary film, “The Black Godfather.”
    ………
    In 1993 Avant was named chairman of Motown Records after its sale to Polygram (both companies are now owned by Universal Music Group).
    ……….

    Avant’s wife was murdered in 2021 during a home burglary.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  182. NJRob: “I see you can’t bother to talk about government corruption so you must support it. See how that works.”

    Not everything is a diabolical trap meant to win the internet yet again. I also recognize that probably all four of you would prefer….with differing levels of enthusiasm…someone other than Trump. Whembly has made that abundantly clear.

    I also recognize that those open to Trump believe that the rest of us have no interest in even considering a reasonable defense. So, my actual request was exploring what could have been the best interpretation of what Trump was doing with National Defense documents. Just saying those documents were mine or that he de-classified them by thinking about them don’t really get to the “why”.

    Why was he so determined to hold onto documents? Was he just pushing the boundary of what an ex-President should be able to do? Was it a game that he had built up in his mind that compelled him to not comply when better sense would have demanded it? Was he getting some really terrible legal advice (which doesn’t seem right)? I understand the worst-case view of this: he was holding onto information for future blackmail opportunities or to somehow monetize the data. I don’t buy that because the whole process looks too chaotic and too much overkill for an activity that could have retained the information while also returning the documents. The guy just comes across as a sociopath that needs confrontation and drama…a sociopath that has no business around national defense decision making.

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  183. AJ, I think he was holding on to them for the same reason a toddler won’t give you your car keys back. He had them, he liked having them, and he didn’t want to.

    Time123 (751a53)

  184. @188: You are assigning too much agency to Trump here.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  185. I wonder about the professionalism or competence of SS agents assigned to Trump. It seems like a punishment detail. Better than fighting counterfeiting in Fairbanks perhaps. Or perhaps not.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  186. Kevin M (ed969f) — 8/14/2023 @ 12:25 pm

    I have the opposite view, completely unsupported by evidence, that they are more-pro Trump than anything, so they don’t see it as a punishment.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  187. Judicial Interference:

    ………..
    “I am reading reports that failed former Lt. Governor of Georgia, Jeff Duncan, will be testifying before the Fulton County Grand Jury,” Trump wrote on his Truth Social platform Monday morning. “He shouldn’t. I barely know him but he was, right from the beginning of this Witch Hunt, a nasty disaster for those looking into the Election Fraud that took place in Georgia.”

    Duncan, who is a critic of Trump’s allegations of election fraud that began in 2020, said Saturday that he’s been requested to appear Tuesday before the Fulton County grand jury.

    “I can confirm that I have been requested to testify before the Fulton County grand jury on Tuesday. I look forward to answering their questions around the 2020 election,” Duncan wrote in a post on X, the platform formerly known as Twitter, in response to a report from CNN’s Kaitlan Collins. She issued an updated post on Aug. 14 stating that Duncan would now be testifying on Monday, shortly after Reuters reported on a now-deleted filing from Fulton County’s webpage showing the former president’s name next to multiple felony charges.

    “Republicans should never let honesty be mistaken for weakness,” Duncan added.
    ……….

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  188. AJ, I think he was holding on to them for the same reason a toddler won’t give you your car keys back. He had them, he liked having them, and he didn’t want to.

    Time123 (751a53) — 8/14/2023 @ 12:12 pm

    I think that’s about it. It was also souvenirs, and he could think how they possibly could come in handy. In an interview that was recorded for a book by Mark Meadows [ The Chief’s Chief , published December 7, 2021], he used one document , or the idea of one, because it probably was incorrectly described as General Mark Milley or the Pentagon actually advocating a war with Iran, and now Trump says it wasn’t even actually there in the folder.

    The whole thing was written to discourage Trump from ordering an attack on Iran’s nuclear program as what would be one of his last acts in office. (It has been reported that it said that it would not be possible to destroy it; to do that you would have to go to war with Iran and we were not prepared to do so.)

    The special counsel, Jack Smith, neglected to indict him over the document at first although he described Trump speaking about it in the indictment.)

    And Trump didn’t keep them in any sort of order – he describes himself as having very recently stumbled across it. Now he says the document was not actually in the folder he waved – that it only contained newspaper clippings etc. And it is clear nobody there got a chance to take a look at it, because he told them he couldn’t show it to them because he could no longer declassify it. That statement was itself cited in the original documents indictment to show that Trump did not, at the time he left office, think he had declassified everything he took (lately he argued that it was automatically declassified when he took them)

    Another time, around the time of the Afghanistan withdrawal, he showed a military map of what presumably was Afghanistan some point earlier telling the person he was showing it to, or pretending to show it too, not to get too close.

    It’s not just classified documents he retained even in defiance of a subpoena, although classified documents are definitely not personal records and they come up against the Espionage Act as National Defense information.

    Biden had some from his Senate days. They could not have come out of a SCIF. They must have been leaked to him by some people in the Executive Branch.

    (Not illegal to share with Congress, at least in the same way other misappropriation would be, but they should have been retained by the Foreign Relations Committee. I guess Chairman Biden kept them from other members of the committee, and he took them with his Senate files when he left the Senate. Another thing Biden isn’t interested in clearing up.)

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  189. Regarding the fourth news item:

    If the U.S. were to ban its citizens from traveling to Iran (and I suspect that many who want to go there are from Iran originally and should know better), you would hear a lot of whining about the unfairness of it all.

    Here’s an idea. If people want to travel to Iran, North Korea, Russia, etc., they should first have to sign a waiver stipulating that, should they be taken into custody, the U.S. will not try to secure their release other than through normal diplomatic protestations.

    I don’t like the precedent of paying over 1 billion dollars per hostage.

    norcal (f78592)

  190. The New York Times reported an accusation about Georgia that looks like it was a crime, or a solicitation to commit a crime, if creating false testimony about election fraud is a crime, but it is not clear, of course, whose idea it was and who was consulted: (and it would have just gotten the person who was solicited in trouble – it was part of screwball planning)

    https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/14/us/trump-georgia-election-results.html

    The Georgia investigation has encompassed an array of high-profile allies, from the lawyers Rudolph W. Giuliani, Kenneth Chesebro and John Eastman, to Mark Meadows, the White House chief of staff at the time of the election. But it has also scrutinized lesser-known players like a Georgia bail bondsman and a publicist who once worked for Kanye West…

    …Then, on Jan. 4, Ms. Freeman received an unusual overture.

    Trevian Kutti, a Trump supporter from Chicago who had once worked as a publicist for Kanye West, persuaded Ms. Freeman to meet her at a police station outside Atlanta. Ms. Freeman later said that Ms. Kutti — who told her that “crisis is my thing,” according to a video of the encounter — had tried to pressure her into saying she had committed voter fraud.

    I think Ruby Freeman and her daughter Wandrea Moss were the only people every specifically accused of having committed voter fraud in the whole thing. The rest of this basically relied on supposed inconsistencies in results with other elections.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  191. norcal (f78592) — 8/14/2023 @ 1:46 pm

    Here’s an idea. If people want to travel to Iran, North Korea, Russia, etc., they should first have to sign a waiver stipulating that, should they be taken into custody, the U.S. will not try to secure their release other than through normal diplomatic protestations.

    A better idea: Release the money slowly, bit by bit, say $100 million or $150 million a month, with the proviso that it stops any time the United States feels another American has been taken hostage.

    It’s going to be released somewhat slowly anyway, and converted into Euros, not Dollars, because South Korea does not want to lower the value of the Korean won

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  192. Former Republican legal officials endorse special counsel’s speedy trial date proposal in Trump Jan. 6 case

    ……….
    The amicus brief was submitted to the United States District Court for the District of Columbia as a project of the Democracy 21 Education Fund in the January 6, 2021, case against Trump. It comes as the former president and his team look to push the case until after the election, though the final decision on a trial date will come down to presiding Judge Tanya Chutkan. Her decision is likely to come by the end of this month.
    ………
    “There is no more important issue facing America and the American people – and to the very functioning of democracy – than whether the former president is guilty of criminally undermining America’s elections and American democracy in order to remain in power notwithstanding that the American people had voted to confer their power upon the former president’s successor, President Joseph Biden,” reads the brief by 11 prominent Republican legal experts.
    ………
    The brief cites the Speedy Trial Act in arguing that Smith’s proposed date is “reasonable” while also accounting for “the American public’s interest in a prompt resolution of this profoundly important case.”

    It also argues that Smith’s proposed timeline “respects and serves the former president’s own interest in a speedy trial.”
    ………
    Trump, objecting to the proposal in a Truth Social post, said any trial in the cases against him should take place, “if at all,” after the presidential election, “due to my First Amendment Rights.” He described the indictments as “election interference.”
    ………
    In addition to Alberto Gonzalez (former Attorney General under George W. Bush) and (J. Michael Luttig, a retired federal appellate judge), the authors include: Steven Calabresi, a co-founder of the Federalist Society; former Massachusetts Gov. Bill Weld; former high-ranking Justice Department officials Stuart Gerson, Don Ayer and Jonathan C. Rose; Paul Rosenzweig, a former deputy assistant secretary for policy in the Department of Homeland Security; former George W. Bush administration chief ethics lawyer Richard Painter; former New Jersey Attorney General John Farmer; and Stan Twardy, a former US attorney for the state of Connecticut.
    #########

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  193. 177. Appalled (3e68f7) — 8/14/2023 @ 10:26 am

    The basic issue I have with Trump, compared to Hillary, was the lack of any attempt to go oops, my bad, and correct the conduct. Instead, he doubled down and obstructed a lawful search warrent.

    No, a subpoena.

    He didn’t interfere with the search warrant.

    Unlike the guy in Utah.

    I’m one of the folks who believes Hillary should have been prosecuted in 2016.

    Not for the classified material, which was truly unintentional in that media, but I think she was probably guilty of other crimes, including selling secret government information.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  194. Jim Miller (d2a9c8) — 8/14/2023 @ 9:15 am

    I don’t think many “mainstream” journalists are rushing to hold the Democratic officals in Hawaii responsible, just as they ignored, for example, Governor Jerry Brown’s failures in the response to the Camp Fire.

    I think somebody is guilty of something because right wing talk radio is pointing out that Joe Biden has refused to comment about the fire.

    Not even “We’re praying for them, I spoke to the governor, I declared it a disaster area.”

    He doesn’t have to say somebody is doing a heckuva job.

    Just Kamala Harris saying that if she or Joe visited the area they;d interfere.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  195. Appalled (3e68f7) — 8/14/2023 @ 9:13 am

    Hillary complied with government requests in the matter. Trump did not.

    She had to be asked twice, (Kerry and the Sate Department was not satisfied with the first submission) and she destroyed documents before almost nobody (except for Secretary of State John Kerry and the State Department) knew about them.

    And then what she returned she printed out without the metadata with the intention of making them difficult to search. But scanning technology had improved. It still cost money.

    Then she declared she wanted everything made public — and that started the examination of her emails for classified information.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  196. The Senate can always tell a President Trump that he won’t get confirmed any nominees that don’t pass muster with them. Plus, a second-term President Donald Trump would be an immediate lame duck — even lamer than the usual lame duck — and so it’s possible that talented people will no longer fear him and will be willing to ignore him when he makes stupid requests and check his more ridiculous impulses. Really, at this point all Donald Trump wants is the ego salve of being elected again, so he probably won’t care all that much about policy in a second term anyway.

    JVW (1ad43e) — 8/13/2023 @ 8:21 pm

    The fact that Trump would be a lame duck would make his second term more dangerous, not less, as he has promised: “I am your warrior. I am your justice. And for those who have been wronged and betrayed, I am your retribution.” He would have nothing to lose.

    And expecting the Senate to challenge him if he won reelection despite criminal charges (if not convictions) is laughable. They would be cowed by his hold on the Republican voter.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  197. but I think she was probably guilty of other crimes, including selling secret government information.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 8/14/2023 @ 2:21 pm

    What is the exact allegation? Any sources?

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  198. Now Fulton County is saying the document filed earlier today was “fictitious”. What the heck is going on?
    We’ll see how it compares.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  199. There was a great deep-dive expose into Hillary’s server details….I don’t have the appetite to find it. But summarizing the gist, Hillary was a technophobe who had staff that enabled her. I saw no evidence that she was intentionally hiding anything vis a vis the server and the extent of classified information that was put into jeopardy was not obscene. Does it absolve her? No, but it did expose that State definitely treated classification much more nonchalantly than DoD….and they needed a wakeup call. Hillary was a BlackBerry old schooler who was no savvy enough to know why her data was at risk. She probably trusted that her staff were taking care of the details. The scramble to separate personal information from professional information would have been Lucille Ball hilarious if it wasn’t so darn reckless. But now Trump has one-upped her and we’re left with “well she got off”. The mind numbing thing is who was Trump listening to on this issue….and how did he get there?

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  200. Davethulhu (e2245a) — 8/13/2023 @ 4:51 pm citing Wikipedia

    1) As Congress gathered to count the state’s votes, Pence was supposed to gavel down the signed, sealed and delivered EVs from 7 or 8 states and declare that another set of electoral votes were to be counted?

    That idea was dropped before January 6. Pence specifcically asked the Parliamentarian if any alternate slates of electors had been submitted. He was asked on Face the Nation where did he get the idea that there might be. He said the newspapers.

    2) Congress would accept this, rather than, say, voting down the ruling then adjourning to their own chambers to consider a quick double impeachment/conviction?

    Voting down the ruling still would have changed the default from acceptance to rejection — but Trump did not have the votes in any case.

    3) And then the president would nationalize the state guards, declare martial law, and “restore order”?

    I think such idea were being promoted by Mike Flynn and Sidney Powell – Trump was concerned that they were not legal – or I should say had not a shred of legality.

    So Trump is either the winner with the most uncontested votes, or the vote goes to the House where each state gets 1 vote. There were 26 Republican controlled states, so Trump wins.

    Not every Republican would vote for Trump and I think somesattes were divided..

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  201. Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 8/14/2023 @ 2:33 pm

    What is the exact allegation? Any sources?

    It’s logic (motive) and that she let people into her office, and would ask to speak to people on the telephone.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  202. AJ_Liberty (5f05c3) — 8/14/2023 @ 2:40 pm

    . She probably trusted that her staff were taking care of the details.

    She was correct.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  203. Her emails had to be secure.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  204. It’s logic (motive) and that she let people into her office, and would ask to speak to people on the telephone.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 8/14/2023 @ 2:43 pm

    LOL! More accusations without evidence; how Stalinist. “Show me the (Clinton) and I’ll show you the crime.”

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  205. @210

    LOL! More accusations without evidence; how Stalinist. “Show me the (Clinton) and I’ll show you the crime.”

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 8/14/2023 @ 2:49 pm

    Yeah no Rip. Please don’t act stupid.

    If you’re all onboard the Trump’s document indictment, because he should of known…. you don’t get to treat Hillary Clinton under a different standard an not get called out on it.

    Hillary, was the Secretary of State, a position that is thoroughly trained on document handling and had to SIGN OFF on that training.

    She was caught with TS-SAP level information in her non-government email accounts.

    She had her communication devices destroyed AFTER they were subject to congressional subpoena.

    She had destroyed so many documents, under subpoena, that if it were anyone else, obstruction charges would be file.

    …and among other things.

    Don’t gas light us. What Hillary did, was arguably 1000% worst than what Trump did imo. Trump did an, allegedly, bad thing, yes and getting taken to court. But Hillary, the presumptuous President in 2016, was given every possible benefit of doubt and every creative-weasly get out of jail free card for her behavior, because too many folks believed she was going to be the next President.

    Use your google-fu prowess and educate yourself on the Hillary Clinton email saga.

    The fact you’re defending her makes your advocacy to throwing the books at Trump weakens your position.

    whembly (5f7596)

  206. @207

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3) — 8/14/2023 @ 2:40 pm

    . She probably trusted that her staff were taking care of the details.

    She was correct.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 8/14/2023 @ 2:44 pm

    And as the boss, she was culpable.

    Plausible deniability is never afforded as a defense in any other cases.

    Furthermore, someone had to transcribe information from a SCIF and re-transcribe it into her email system.

    The DOJ/FBI never really chased down that particular lead (as in, how did SCIF materials get into her personal non-government email accout?)… leads me to believe that the Obama administration knew what HRC did, and gave prior consent. This got ignored, because no one in the Obama administration wanted someone higher up, including Obama, to state that this was approved. They were trying to run out the clock, believing HRC would be the next President and this issue would’ve died down.

    whembly (5f7596)

  207. I have the opposite view, completely unsupported by evidence, that they are more-pro Trump than anything, so they don’t see it as a punishment.

    Could be, but they say “never meet your heroes.”

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  208. whembly (5f7596) — 8/14/2023 @ 3:03 pm

    There has never been any evidence that HRC sold government secrets to anyone, which was the accusation without evidence made by Sammy.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  209. @213 Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 8/14/2023 @ 3:14 pm
    We don’t know because the DOJ never really did a good-faith investigation on her, because they all believed she’d be the next POTUS. That mindset explains WHY the government behaved the way it did.

    whembly (5f7596)

  210. @197: Here’s the plan:

    1) Trump is convicted in Feb 2024 of attempting to defraud the US into accepting unlawful electoral votes in order to maintain power.

    2) Another candidate (e.g. Chris Christie) files suit, saying that they are harmed by Trump, a disqualified person, competing for the GOP nomination.

    3) A court agrees and issues a TRO preventing Trump’s name from appearing on ballots, or if that is not possible, barring his votes from being tallied.

    Do not be standing near any fans when this occurs.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  211. Just Kamala Harris saying that if she or Joe visited the area they’d interfere.

    If they had any brains, they’d send Obama.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  212. Now Fulton County is saying the document filed earlier today was “fictitious”

    Well, the grand jury sure had not issued it.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  213. The fact you’re defending her makes your advocacy to throwing the books at Trump weakens your position.

    whembly (5f7596) — 8/14/2023 @ 3:03 pm

    As I mentioned above, I wasn’t defending HRC, it was a fantastical accusation that I was questioning, which Sammy admitted he made up. I’m not emotionally involved in the HRC saga, it is water under the bridge. But Trump is can bring it up at his trial as a case of selective prosecution (or in his case, non-prosecution by his Justice Department), but I’ll bet to won’t go far.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  214. Anyone get a sense of weirdness of this Georgia Indictment thing? The, indictment being made public for a few minutes, with a case number and an assigned judge while the Grand Jury is still deliberating?

    I don’t know if GA is like MO in this regard, but in MO grand jury indictments must stay within the DA office until the grand jury returns with a “bill” decision.

    The conspiracy-radar pinged here… in that maybe they realize that they really don’t have a strong case, but make it so that it’d likely get hotly contested in courts or thrown out on constitutional principles (ie, 5th).

    whembly (5f7596)

  215. And expecting the Senate to challenge him if he won reelection despite criminal charges (if not convictions) is laughable. They would be cowed by his hold on the Republican voter.

    The Democrats would be cowed by his hold on the unaffiliated voter. Not that it would matter once he’s CinC and declaring insurrections all over the place.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  216. @218

    As I mentioned above, I wasn’t defending HRC, it was a fantastical accusation that I was questioning, which Sammy admitted he made up. I’m not emotionally involved in the HRC saga, it is water under the bridge. But Trump is can bring it up at his trial as a case of selective prosecution (or in his case, non-prosecution by his Justice Department), but I’ll bet to won’t go far.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 8/14/2023 @ 3:27 pm

    It’ll go no where in court.

    But, I’m worried about the public debate. I’m irritated that Trump is going to successfully argue that all of his indictments/impeachments is a product of selective prosecution.

    whembly (5f7596)

  217. But, I’m worried about the public debate. I’m irritated that Trump is going to successfully argue that all of his indictments/impeachments is a product of selective prosecution.

    whembly (5f7596) — 8/14/2023 @ 3:29 pm

    Right.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  218. I don’t know if GA is like MO in this regard, but in MO grand jury indictments must stay within the DA office until the grand jury returns with a “bill” decision.

    I invoke Hanlon’s Razor here: “Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.”

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  219. But, I’m worried about the public debate. I’m irritated that Trump is going to successfully argue that all of his indictments/impeachments is a product of selective prosecution.

    Only the first set was of that sort. The NY charges will remain an embarrassment to that office for decades.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  220. The NY charges will remain an embarrassment to that office for decades.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 8/14/2023 @ 3:34 pm

    Speaking of which:

    The judge overseeing the Manhattan district attorney’s criminal case against Donald Trump denied the former president’s effort to have the judge recuse himself, writing in an opinion that “this Court has examined its conscience and is certain in its ability to be fair and impartial.”
    ………
    Trump had argued that (Judge Juan) Merchan is biased and has a conflict of interest. In court papers, Trump’s lawyers said Merchan should step aside due to “actual or perceived conflict of interest” because his daughter works for a digital agency, Authentic, whose clients include a number of Democratic officials.

    They said Merchan showed a “preconceived bias” by urging Allen Weisselberg, the Trump Organization’s former chief financial officer, to cooperate against Trump in an earlier case. And they requested that Merchan publicly explain small-dollar political contributions he made to Democratic candidates or causes in 2020.

    In his opinion, dated Friday and made public Monday, Merchan rejected both accusations and the request regarding his political donations. He also disclosed that in mid-April, before Trump made his request for recusal, Merchan sought guidance from the New York State Advisory Committee on Judicial Ethics about several issues Trump subsequently raised.

    Regarding his daughter’s employment, Merchan cited an advisory opinion from the committee with respect to the Trump criminal case that concluded: “We see nothing in the inquiry to suggest that the outcome of the case could have any effect on the judge’s relative, the relative’s business, or any of their interests.”

    “Defendant has failed to demonstrate that there exists concrete, or even realistic reasons for recusal to be appropriate, much less required on these grounds,” Merchan wrote. “The speculative and hypothetical scenarios offered by Defendant fall well short of the legal standard.”
    ………..

    A Hail Mary flop.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  221. Congress should pass a law immunizing former Presidents from prosecution.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  222. <blockquote>Congress should pass a law immunizing former Presidents from prosecution.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 8/14/2023 @ 3:48 pm

    LOL!

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  223. Trump Playing the Media and the Lilliputians Like a Violin:
    …………
    The campaigns of four of the seven candidates who say they’ve qualified for the Aug. 23 debate in Milwaukee acknowledged to NBC News they’re holding debate prep sessions as if Trump will be there. A fifth candidate, former U.N. Ambassador Nikki Haley, said she expects Trump to be there. Meanwhile, former New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie has dared Trump to show up and hurl insults in person: “Say it to my face.” (Trump is the eighth candidate who has hit the polling and fundraising thresholds for the debate.)

    The focus on Trump in the run-up to the debate is a sign of the power he wields over the field and his potential to wreak havoc. With just more than a week before they step onto the highest-profile stage of the campaign yet, the GOP presidential candidates are still unsure of their precise target.
    ……….
    “There’s a 2% chance that Trump doesn’t show up,” said (Terry Sullivan, Sen. Marco Rubio’s campaign manager during his 2016 presidential bid), who was heavily involved in debate prep for Rubio at the time. “And half of that involves him choking on a hamburger and being rushed to the hospital.”
    ………
    Trump’s absence could make Pence a target for any attacks on Trump-Pence administration policies. Part of the challenge for Pence will be how to best project his message — that he’s both the most traditionally conservative candidate in the race and the grown-up in the room — while fighting for air time on a crowded stage, the aide said.

    If Trump is there, sucking up oxygen, it could be more difficult for Pence to be heard without getting into a food fight that undermines the adult-in-the-room vibe he wants to adopt.
    ……….
    Ramaswamy declined to say whether there might be a target on DeSantis’ back. But he hinted it’s not his plan to go after him.

    “I’m not commenting on anyone specifically,” Ramaswamy said, “but generally if somebody is defeating themselves, you let them do that on their own.”
    ………
    But when it comes to attacks, aides and operatives in most campaigns agree the bulk of the fire is likely to be trained on DeSantis — whether Trump is there or not. And if he is, Trump, a chief critic of DeSantis, is likely to lead the way.
    ………
    Sources close to the DeSantis campaign say much of the strategy on the stage is to keep his message focused on President Joe Biden and to argue that he is the only candidate who can beat the president. DeSantis is also looking to bolster his campaign’s contention that it is a two-person race with Trump.
    ………
    “If I am Ron DeSantis’ team,” (Vinny Minchillo, a longtime Republican ad maker) said, “my goal is to just make him look like a carbon-based life form.”
    ………

    Currently Biden leads Trump by .7 in the RCP average, while Biden leads DeSantis by 1.8 points.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  224. Reformatted to blockquote the excerpt:

    Trump Playing the Media and the Lilliputians Like a Violin:

    …………
    The campaigns of four of the seven candidates who say they’ve qualified for the Aug. 23 debate in Milwaukee acknowledged to NBC News they’re holding debate prep sessions as if Trump will be there. A fifth candidate, former U.N. Ambassador Nikki Haley, said she expects Trump to be there. Meanwhile, former New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie has dared Trump to show up and hurl insults in person: “Say it to my face.” (Trump is the eighth candidate who has hit the polling and fundraising thresholds for the debate.)

    The focus on Trump in the run-up to the debate is a sign of the power he wields over the field and his potential to wreak havoc. With just more than a week before they step onto the highest-profile stage of the campaign yet, the GOP presidential candidates are still unsure of their precise target.
    ……….
    “There’s a 2% chance that Trump doesn’t show up,” said (Terry Sullivan, Sen. Marco Rubio’s campaign manager during his 2016 presidential bid), who was heavily involved in debate prep for Rubio at the time. “And half of that involves him choking on a hamburger and being rushed to the hospital.”
    ………
    Trump’s absence could make Pence a target for any attacks on Trump-Pence administration policies. Part of the challenge for Pence will be how to best project his message — that he’s both the most traditionally conservative candidate in the race and the grown-up in the room — while fighting for air time on a crowded stage, the aide said.

    If Trump is there, sucking up oxygen, it could be more difficult for Pence to be heard without getting into a food fight that undermines the adult-in-the-room vibe he wants to adopt.
    ……….
    Ramaswamy declined to say whether there might be a target on DeSantis’ back. But he hinted it’s not his plan to go after him.

    “I’m not commenting on anyone specifically,” Ramaswamy said, “but generally if somebody is defeating themselves, you let them do that on their own.”
    ………
    But when it comes to attacks, aides and operatives in most campaigns agree the bulk of the fire is likely to be trained on DeSantis — whether Trump is there or not. And if he is, Trump, a chief critic of DeSantis, is likely to lead the way.
    ………
    Sources close to the DeSantis campaign say much of the strategy on the stage is to keep his message focused on President Joe Biden and to argue that he is the only candidate who can beat the president. DeSantis is also looking to bolster his campaign’s contention that it is a two-person race with Trump.
    ………
    “If I am Ron DeSantis’ team,” (Vinny Minchillo, a longtime Republican ad maker) said, “my goal is to just make him look like a carbon-based life form.”
    ………

    Currently Biden leads Trump by .7 in the RCP average, while Biden leads DeSantis by 1.8 points.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  225. Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 8/14/2023 @ 3:48 pm

    Talking to yourself is bad enough. Arguing against yourself is worse.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  226. Trump’s tweets are so juvenile . I mean, just look at them. How could anybody fall for them? It’s embarrassing.

    They resemble smack in the run up to a professional wrestling match.

    norcal (39b630)

  227. Talking to yourself is bad enough.

    Kevin M (ed969f) — 8/14/2023 @ 4:17 pm

    When I cite a previous post, I’m revising and extending my remarks. In the latest instance I was just having some fun.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  228. So many here will vote for biden sometimes I think I am on DU! I wont vote for biden maybe newsom certainly AOC ;but they are not running. I will most likely vote green party again even if I have to write green party candidates in. If trump wins (it was close in az in2020 with green party only getting write in votes) It will hasten the big changes that are needed. I like to be positive.

    asset (486251)

  229. I was just having some fun.

    As was I

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  230. It will hasten the big changes that are needed.

    This theory would have San Francisco flipping Republican.

    Kevin M (ed969f)

  231. Defendant has failed to demonstrate that there exists concrete, or even realistic reasons for recusal to be appropriate, much less required

    That’s it! “Just buckle down and do the job you were elected to do, judge!”

    If any dipwiddle could get a judge to recuse himself by saying mean things about him, no case would go to trial.

    nk (79cbb5)

  232. In 2016 green party on ballot in az jill stein gets 36,345votes democrats keep green party off ballot and in 2020 they get 1551 write in votes including mine. Biden wins az by 10,000 votes @235 no it wouldn’t just the opposite.

    asset (486251)

  233. Indictment (at least against Trump) now public (Reuters) It was reported earlier that there were ten indictments, which means ten separate individuals or combination of individuals. Apparently, a big sprawling case.

    Sammy Finkelman (1b5c2d)

  234. In court papers in the Jan 6 case, Trump’s lawyers said they had been investigating that for 3 1/2 years. [sic]

    Sammy Finkelman (1b5c2d)

  235. Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 8/14/2023 @ 12:00 pm

    Clarence was my client for a few years. Very fine, decent man. R.I.P.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  236. Comment on the new indictment in the new thread for it.

    Patterico (f5a1b0)

  237. None of this would’ve happened had Trump conceded before J6 and complied with a subpoena.
    Instead, we’re dealing with the drama of a malignant narcissist, and the confounding part is that a majority of the Republican Party still wants him as the GOP nominee and standard bearer for my party. SMDH and WTF and JCOAFPS and any other apt acronym.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  238. There’s a total of 19 people indicted, on 41 counts (13 of them apply to Trump) and Mark Meadows was also indicted, eve though he’s a co-operating witness in the DC case.

    Sammy Finkelman (1b5c2d)

  239. Reminder: Comment on the new indictment in the new thread for it.

    Patterico (f5a1b0)


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