Donald Trump Indicted By DOJ
[guest post by Dana]
NBC reports they have confirmed:
Former President Donald Trump has been indicted in federal court in Miami in connection with his retention of classified government documents he retained after leaving the White House.
Trump himself disclosed the indictment in a series of posts on his Truth Social social media site on Thursday evening. He also said he has been summoned to appear in court in Miami on Tuesday…
“I never thought it possible that such a thing could happen to a former President of the United States, who received far more votes than any sitting President in the History of our Country, and is currently leading, by far, all Candidates, both Democrat and Republican, in Polls of the 2024 Presidential Election,” Trump wrote.
“I AM AN INNOCENT MAN!This is indeed a DARK DAY for the United States of America,” he wrote.
Trump in his social media posts wrote: “The corrupt Biden Administration has informed my attorneys that I have been Indicted, seemingly over the Boxes Hoax, even though Joe Biden has 1850 Boxes at the University of Delaware, additional Boxes in Chinatown, D.C., with even more Boxes at the University of Pennsylvania, and documents strewn all over his garage floor where he parks his Corvette, and which is “secured” by only a garage door that is paper thin, and open much of the time.”
“We are a Country in serious and rapid Decline, but together we will Make America Great Again!”
And while Trump supporters like Josh Hawley are reacting to the news with dire warnings: “If the people in power can jail their political opponents at will, we don’t have a republic,” sound minds easily correct the misassumption about what is happening with Trump: “Fortunately that’s not what’s happening here. Trump will receive due process. He’ll get a trial. He’ll have the right to appeal. He’s arguably the most powerful criminal defendant in American history.”
—-Dana
Hello.
Dana (560c99) — 6/8/2023 @ 5:21 pmIndictment is sealed, so we don’t know whether this is about the actual possession of documents, or whether it is for obstructing the investigation. I think learning the exact nature of the charges will be very elucidating.
And Trump is ignoring the advice from Andy McCarthy and trying to compare his case with Joe Biden’s mishandling of documents, when he ought to be focusing on the parallels of his case with Hillary Clinton’s. But it’s long been clear that he is the dumbest client a defense attorney could ever want.
JVW (1ad43e) — 6/8/2023 @ 5:30 pmThey’d better have what they need to make it stick, otherwise this will be an unmitigated catastrophe.
One way or another, no matter the outcome, our country is permanently changed today.
aphrael (a5b7d4) — 6/8/2023 @ 5:31 pmIt’s beyond me why any lawyer would take him on as a client. Nothing good ever comes of it.
Dana (560c99) — 6/8/2023 @ 5:33 pmAccording to NYT reporting, the indictment includes a conspiracy false statements charge, where prosecutors would need to show that Trump and at least one other person agreed to illegally mislead investigators and that they took at least some overt action to further that plan, conspiracy to obstruct justice, false statements and willful retention of documents.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/8/2023 @ 5:44 pmIf the NYT reporting is correct, it is a stretch to compare this with the Biden documents, as Biden (and Pence) didn’t take any overt actions to conceal documents from the government but immediately invited the government to search their properties and reclaim any documents.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/8/2023 @ 5:47 pmI expect the special counsel investigating the Biden document case will come to the same conclusion as did the DOJ regarding the Pence documents.
But then again, Biden can’t be charged with a crime as long as he is President.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/8/2023 @ 5:51 pmHoarding classified documents (without the intent of selling them to a foreign government) has always been prosecuted. This case should be no different.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/8/2023 @ 5:55 pm@5
That’s the Judge Bryle Howe angle in allowing the special counsel to use Trump’s former lawyer’s notes via the crime-exception clause piercing client privlege.
If there’s any case of an overboard prosecution, it’s here where they’ll appeal.
whembly (17b5e5) — 6/8/2023 @ 6:17 pmMeanwhile, the Biden family corruption continues with not a hint of any indictments, even of Hunter.
edoc118 (f6616a) — 6/8/2023 @ 6:19 pmDo you believe in coincidence?
I mean, the indictment of Trump is sucking up all the oxygen of the news.
But, today we found out that whistleblower alleged on that FBI document that Joe Biden himself took a 5million dollar bribe from a Burisma executive:
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/biden-allegedly-paid-5-million-by-burisma-executive
If Trump wasn’t in the picture, this is earthshattering news.
whembly (17b5e5) — 6/8/2023 @ 6:23 pmAnd so far Ratsaswarmy has come out with firm support for Trump, and Hutchinson has called on Trump to drop out. No surprise there.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/8/2023 @ 6:35 pm“I AM AN INNOCENT MAN!”
At no time in his life.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/8/2023 @ 6:35 pmThey’d better have what they need to make it stick, otherwise this will be an unmitigated catastrophe.
From what I can see, they undercharged. What they alleged are palpable facts. He had classified documents illegally. He lied that he had them. He thwarted efforts to recover them, lying, moving them, and hiding them.
These are all head-shots.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/8/2023 @ 6:38 pmWhembly,
No.
NJRob (6f21a0) — 6/8/2023 @ 6:39 pm@15
Cool.
Just making sure it wasn’t just me.
whembly (17b5e5) — 6/8/2023 @ 6:46 pmEvery time I jump down your “classified materials” rabbit hole, I find that it’s more than just “having some classified papers.”
In the case of the guy serving 9 years, investigators found “50 terabytes of classified data within the residence, in an unlocked shed, and within Martin’s personal vehicle.” Unsecured. They were investigating him for a leak, which they could not prove.
As I’ve said, there is always something more.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/8/2023 @ 6:48 pmRip, did you overlook the irony of two of your back to back comments?
and
If it’s always been prosecuted then why is Pence being let off the hook? Why were Hillary and Huma Abedin given free passes, even though Ms. Abedin had them in a location where they could easily be accessed by a convicted sex fiend?
I think you might want to re-think the assertion that these sort of things have always been prosecuted.
JVW (1ad43e) — 6/8/2023 @ 6:49 pmI dunno whembly, a seven-count indictment in federal court by an experienced prosecutor versus unsubstantiated claims by an unnamed source who claims a big Biden payout where there doesn’t sound like there is any evidence. One doesn’t sound like much of a bombshell. You need substantiated evidence…not just gossip and anonymous accusations. Fox News is committed to the what-about.
AJ_Liberty (eab65e) — 6/8/2023 @ 7:36 pmHey, I would like to know why Trump took all this classified stuff and why he made it into such a big deal to hold onto it. It seems like the difference with Hillary…and Pence for that matter….is that they cooperated. They didn’t lie and obstruct, which suggests they didn’t have anything to hide. What’s Trump hiding?
AJ_Liberty (eab65e) — 6/8/2023 @ 7:43 pmI presume Biden and Pence had originally possessed their classified documents as part of their time as VO, and as I pointed out they fully cooperated with their investigators. Those who have been charged and sentenced to prison had no reason to possess the amounts of documents found in their possession.
As far Hillary Clinton goes, I have always wondered why the Trump Administration never prosecuted her (or Huma Abedin), especially when he campaigned on “locking her up.”
Rip Murdock (afd316) — 6/8/2023 @ 8:09 pmIt seems like the difference with Hillary…and Pence for that matter….is that they cooperated. They didn’t lie and obstruct,
Hillary Clinton deleted emails, tried to wipe the server clean, and destroyed devices. “New, undiscovered” email messages from her kept emerging well after she told investigator that her team had turned over every one of them. She was far from having cooperated, and I think there is a strong case to be made that she sought to obstruct the investigation. But the fix was always in for her.
Guys, I am totally cool with the argument that Trump is a louse and ought to go to jail here. But please, let’s not rewrite history to pretend that his sins were all that different from Hillary Clinton’s, or that Her Clintonic Majesty was very cooperative in the investigation. It just ain’t gonna fly.
JVW (1ad43e) — 6/8/2023 @ 8:10 pmTrying to post. Am I blocked?
BuDuh (921160) — 6/8/2023 @ 8:10 pmCool. I’ll post without the link and then again with the broken up link.
Maybe this?
Memorandum on Declassification of Certain Materials Related to the FBI’s Crossfire Hurricane Investigation
BuDuh (921160) — 6/8/2023 @ 8:12 pmtrum pwhiteho use.archives.g ov/presidential-actions/memorandum-declassification-certain-materials-related-fbis-crossfire-hurricane-investigation
I am not defending any of Trump’s actions. Just looking for possible reasons.
BuDuh (921160) — 6/8/2023 @ 8:13 pmCorrection to post 21. Should be:
Rip Murdock (f2fe26) — 6/8/2023 @ 8:14 pm
Why wasn’t HRC prosecuted by the Trump Administration?
Rip Murdock (afd316) — 6/8/2023 @ 8:17 pmHere is a possible reason:
BuDuh (921160) — 6/8/2023 @ 8:27 pmSo, at what point did Trump lose his mind?
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/8/2023 @ 8:37 pmWait, you think Trump didn’t insist on prosecuting Hillary because he didn’t want to be divisive? Comey was a Republican for most of his adult life. Who orchestrated the fix?
AJ_Liberty (eab65e) — 6/8/2023 @ 8:43 pmClinton claimed to delete the emails because they were not work-related and she was told to only hand over work-related items. She admits that it was a mistake…and it likely cost her the election. Comey concluded that there was no evil intent or intent to obstruct. Part of this was based on emails retrieved that showed how her and others “talked around” classified information, recognizing that it was not permitted on her server.
Still likely reckless and deserving of more of a sanction, but is it equivalent to Trump? Was Trump just making his “duties”….ahem, after he left the White House…easier by having his favorite few hundred classified documents hanging around? I’m willing to wait for the evidence and reserve my judgment on the comparison. I just think intent was different…..and I don’t think Trump just mistakenly held onto classified documents. A conspiracy charge suggests more….
AJ_Liberty (eab65e) — 6/8/2023 @ 9:17 pmHillary is one of the most investigated people in the country and she’s never even been charged with anything. She’s secretive and paranoid, but she doesn’t seem to be doing crime. That or she’s one of the smartest criminals who ever crimed.
Nic (896fdf) — 6/8/2023 @ 9:21 pmWhy wasn’t HRC prosecuted by the Trump Administration?
It’s weird, but way back in 2016 it was considered “beyond the pale” to prosecute your defeated political opponent, especially when the previous administration — in which she worked and which had their own secrets they wanted to keep — had already absolved her of guilt. Listen, if it were up to me I would have still gone after her, but I’m a vindictive sonuvabitch who doesn’t like much of anybody in Washington DC.
Do you really think it’s surprising that James Comey and Loretta Lynch let Hillary slide, and do you really believe that Jeff Sessions would have been able to re-open that investigation and actually bring charges against her without the entire Establishment going to DEFCON 1 on everybody?
JVW (1ad43e) — 6/8/2023 @ 9:33 pmThat or she’s one of the smartest criminals who ever crimed.
Meyer Lansky was one of the most famous mob bosses in the history of this country, with gambling operations spanning from Los Angeles to Las Vegas to New Orleans to Miami to New York to Havana and beyond. He also almost certainly ordered, or at least rubber-stamped various murders, including of his friend Benjamin Siegel. Yet for all of that, the only thing he was ever busted for was illegal gambling as a youngster. So please don’t pretend that it’s a huge surprise that someone has dialed-in and ruthless as Hillary Clinton finds a way to beat the rap.
(One interesting conjecture is that Lansky kept himself out of trouble because he had incriminating information regarding J. Edgar Hoover, the head of the FBI. Would it surprise you if Hillary Clinton doesn’t know what skeletons are in various high-ranking people’s closets?)
JVW (1ad43e) — 6/8/2023 @ 9:41 pmAndy McCarthy, referring to the WaPo and the NYT but not indicating which one has this info, says that leaked information indicates that Trump is being charged with willfully retaining classified documents. He quotes what he believes is likely the statue in question (Sec 793, Title 18 of the Federal Criminal Code):
In other words, Trump’s real trouble came when the FBI told him to hand over the documents and he replied, “No.” There’s more info at his post, which you should read. But this seems to answer the question as to how his case differs from Biden’s or Pence’s.
JVW (1ad43e) — 6/8/2023 @ 10:35 pmAs I recall, this was the same allegation that AG Barr threw out in 2020 for lack of evidence.
Robert Costa has a good thread on tonight’s events. Some excerpts…
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/8/2023 @ 10:55 pmjames watt who called beach boy music decadent and replace them with wayne newton dies at least he will have company pat robertson died too. sign in d.c. jail bubba and abdullah welcomes trump to their jail!
asset (4122b6) — 6/8/2023 @ 11:02 pm@JVW@34 I don’t think she is as dialed in as you say. The Clintons are new money in the political world. They aren’t the Kennedys, they aren’t the Bushes, they aren’t even the Romneys. Neither came from powerful or networked families of any sort. They don’t have the generations of social network and alliances in government, business, or crime that it takes to cover up as much stuff as she’s been accused of covering up. Yes, they made allies along the way, but it isn’t that deep. The “Clinton Machine” and Hillary have been exaggerated into boogiemen when really Bill was talented and Hillary was smart and together they only made one relatively skilled and effective politician.
Nic (896fdf) — 6/8/2023 @ 11:05 pmThe sad and pathological thing about this is…all Trump had to do was return all the materials NARA requested, and then comply with a subpoena, and that would’ve been the end of it. The story would’ve lasted one or two news cycles and then be a thing of the past.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/8/2023 @ 11:08 pmBut weirdly, Trump’s pride or ego or delusion or all of the above caused him to choose to disregard the law and law enforcement. It really is pathological and never should have happened. But Trump was the f-cking idiot who obstructed instead of cooperated.
Since fbi has evidence (but with holding it) that burisma gave $5 million to joe biden if he and pence are not indicted now that trump is. Interesting as mr. spock says to see what the trumpsters do.
asset (4122b6) — 6/8/2023 @ 11:16 pmThe reactions by the candidates to Trump’s indictment were pathetic, even Christie’s, except for Asa.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/8/2023 @ 11:20 pmThat was a quick fact-check turnaround, but most of Trump’s lies in his video last night were recycled.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/9/2023 @ 5:51 amThe reactions by the candidates to Trump’s indictment were pathetic, even Christie’s, except for Asa.
Of course. Trump’s voters are on the table again.
nk (fb6233) — 6/9/2023 @ 6:43 amAsa has 0.4% support, according the RCP average. Republicans don’t like Republicans who speak truth to power and bullying and criminal behavior.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/9/2023 @ 6:56 amWhat worries me, really, is the Democrats. They’re dead set on giving us a Chernenko with a Gorbachev in the wings. Because I don’t see a Republican next term no matter who.
nk (fb6233) — 6/9/2023 @ 6:56 am@19
I mean, I get your point.
But, I’m struck with this: Take the Biden and Trump name out of the equation for a moment.
A) A former POTUS is indicted on serious crime by current POTUS and likely opponent in next election.
B) Current POTUS is also faced with strong, credible bribery allegations that his adminstration has tried like the dickens to downplay.
Both are bad.
Both are earthshattering, imo.
It’s sad that it’s only A) that’s dominating everything because it’s Trump.
whembly (d116f3) — 6/9/2023 @ 7:08 am@33
This… all of this.
We all criticize Trump for is norm-breaking behaviors. But please don’t ignore Trump’s opponent’s own norm-breaking behaviors eithers.
whembly (d116f3) — 6/9/2023 @ 7:11 amJVW and whembly, the Trump administration twice tried to nail Hillary, the first attempt under Tillerson and the next under Pompeo. I didn’t post this link earlier because blue is my favorite color.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/9/2023 @ 7:34 amMitt Romney would probably get as much support as Hutchinson or Christie if he ran, but it don’t mean he’s wrong.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/9/2023 @ 7:59 am@JVW@34 I don’t think she is as dialed in as you say.
Well, if you look at the Washington establishment, especially among Democrats, there certainly are a lot of people who either:
(1) went to law school with Bill or Hillary (though admittedly, these people are now in their mid-70s) or else
(2) worked in some capacity in the Clinton Administration or Obama Administration, or else
(3) were major donors to Clinton or the Clinton Global Initiative.
And many of those in the above categories have mentored younger people who currently work in Washington, so indeed, I think their reach into the levers of power is way more extensive than you want to believe.
JVW (721d52) — 6/9/2023 @ 8:43 amLOL!
If Trump ordered him, yes.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/9/2023 @ 8:47 amFlashback:
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/9/2023 @ 8:51 amCongress should just pass a law prohibiting the prosecution of former presidents, vice presidents, and presidential nominees. I’m sure it would get bipartisan support.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/9/2023 @ 8:54 amThe problem isn’t that mistakes were made and his political rivals are crucifying Trump for process fouls. First, Jack Smith isn’t exactly a Democrat pit-bull. He’s an equal opportunity prosecutor, not exactly known for over-charging defendants or treating them unfairly. Merrick Garland isn’t signing off on anything here.
Second, as Romney states, Trump had multiple opportunities to simply turn things over. Again, this is either super-sized hubris, gross incompetence, or malicious intent…or some combination of the three. I mean it’s almost sociopathic that Trump produced an audio tape of him admitting to having a classified military document that he was describing to an uncleared gathering. This is just not normal behavior. On one hand, maybe this shows reckless intent versus malicious intent, but on the other hand, if he doesn’t understand that this is wrong, what else might he be doing?
We just can’t have the leader of the free world so oblivious to right and wrong — legal and ethical constraints, because Romney is correct, you end up with someone who doesn’t intercede to stop the Capitol rioters and someone who pressures Ukraine to dig up dirt on his rival. The whole exercise of equivocation continues to miss the point. The GOP does not need Trump. Georgia and J6 are coming next. At what point does the party lose all credibility?
AJ_Liberty (5f05c3) — 6/9/2023 @ 8:56 am“The process is the punishment.”
ingot9455 (46f6e9) — 6/9/2023 @ 9:01 amLet’s see how things turned out:
A. Outrage at the indictment, Un-American, a “dangerous moment”, “politically motivated”, weaponization, will pardon Trump, etc.-DeSantis, Ramaswamy, Elder, Scott Check.
B. Deploring the “sad state of affairs” but not challenging Trump to withdraw-Pence, Haley Haley fails because of her silence, she should have had a generic statement given that this has in the news for weeks. Check.
C. What indictment?-Scott Wrong. Sad.
D. Trump should immediately withdraw-Hutchinson, Christie I’ll Christie the benefit of the doubt given his strong announcement statement. Check.
E. Who knows?-Burgum Check.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/9/2023 @ 9:06 amAs I recall, this was the same allegation that AG Barr threw out in 2020 for lack of evidence.
Uh, no, your recollection is entirely wrong, Paul Montagu. Absolutely no. You’re confusing Jamie Raskin’s “strategic untruths” with what actually happened here:
JVW (10ec5a) — 6/9/2023 @ 9:19 amThings are moving fast.
One, it would be a travesty if Trump-appointed Judge Cannon is assigned to the case. This is the same judge who was overturned by a three-judge 11th Circuit panel (two Trump appointees and one Obama appointee), saying that “the district court abused its discretion”. I would hope that the DOJ files an objection if she actually is the judge from here on out.
Two, two more rats lawyers are jumping Trump’s legal ship.
Three, Trump’s aide Mr. Nauta was just indicted for conspiracy.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/9/2023 @ 9:23 amOkay, JVW, I’ll just say what I’ve said prior: All I’ve seen is allegation and no evidence that Joe Biden got this money.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/9/2023 @ 9:26 amAll I’ve seen is allegation and no evidence that Joe Biden got this money.
Fair enough. But with a sealed indictment, all you’ve seen thus far is allegation and no evidence that Donald Trump willfully kept classified documents. But that doesn’t mean that your own intuition can’t lead you to assume you that it’s true.
JVW (e938a2) — 6/9/2023 @ 9:29 amComer needs to release the FBI’s informant’s statement.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/9/2023 @ 9:34 am56. It’s mostly vague criticism of the indictment, which is actually often par for the course by Republicans on many issues (debt, 5border crossers)
Of course the indictment is still sealed but it seems to be mostly about obstruction of the document recovery, and lying. With maybe one count of willfully retaining national defense information, probably based on that July 2021 recorded interview with the ghostwriters for Mark Meadows at which Trump waved around a document and said it would prove who wanted war with Iran but said it was classified and he regretted he hadn’t declassified it but he couldn’t show it to them,
The indictment will be unsealed on Tuesday – Trump revealed that his lawyers had been informed, and one Trump lawyer told CNN there were seven counts and there have been earlier leaks about what it might contain.
. Reporters were standing around the ourthouse and saw the grand jury report to the judge at about 3:45 pm and some minutes later they were told they had left.
Sammy Finkelman (300a8a) — 6/9/2023 @ 9:36 amC’mon, JVW. There’s literally photographic evidence from the FBI search, and the only reason they applied for and received a warrant was because Trump refused to turn over all the documents, despite his lawyer’s certification, and as evidenced by the 100 classified documents came from the fruit of the search, and those documents were faithfully logged by the FBI and examined by the Special Master.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/9/2023 @ 9:46 amJVW:
Would you agree with my proposal here?
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/9/2023 @ 9:50 amIf Trump wasn’t in the picture, this is earthshattering news.
Now, whose fault is it that Trump is always in the picture? I’m sure he’s already taped the elegy for his own funeral.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/9/2023 @ 9:54 amHaley, quoted in the Washington Examiner:
I don’t really see this as a defense of Trump as much as it is an attack on Biden’s DoJ. And I am encouraged by her return to the idea of a post-Trump world without all the drama and distractions.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/9/2023 @ 10:07 amIt’s not so much that Trump isn’t guilty (he is), but that the DoJ doesn’t seem to see any Democrats’ crimes at all. When the House finds Wray in contempt, I doubt that there will be a prosecution like they did with GOP officials in the last Congress.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/9/2023 @ 10:10 am“As president, I could have declassified, but now I can’t.”
–Donald J. Trump, busted dead to rights, 2021, Bedminster NJ
They can’t even that the recording is illegal because NJ isn’t a two-party consent state.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/9/2023 @ 10:13 amIs the Chairman of the Senate Republican Conference considered a “Senate GOP leader?”
https://twitter.com/SenJohnBarrasso/status/1667194427125669888
BuDuh (921160) — 6/9/2023 @ 10:13 amWhatever Republicans may think of the DoJ, and whatever political considerations there are in attacking it for bias and double standards, the fact is that the federal charges against Trump are in no way comparable to the ludicrous (and wildly overcharged) NY case.
That said, I can see Trump escaping these federal charges — the court is going to have a hard time avoiding willful jury nullifiers.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/9/2023 @ 10:15 amAs has been explained above, there are vast differences between Biden and Pence’s accidental retention of documents and Trump’s willful and obstinate actions.
But when the Democrat DoJ looked at Hillary’s gross negligence (to put it kindly) and said that “no reasonable prosecutor would bring such a case”, one has to ask what happened to all those reasonable prosecutors?
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/9/2023 @ 10:19 amNo. 3-And my excerpt included his statement.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/9/2023 @ 10:22 amTo be clear, I was pretty adamant at the time that Hillary should be prosecuted for gross negligence and mishandling TS and TS:SCI documents. It still frosts me that she skated.
I also think that Trump’s case, while of a lesser nature, deserves prosecution. But the different outcome wrt Hillary is hard to ignore.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/9/2023 @ 10:22 amThe problem with much of these conspiracy theories is that they get gassed pretty quickly upon inspection. Pressure to fire Shokin did not just come from Biden. This was the position of not just the administration but European diplomats, the IMF, and other agencies. Did they all get $5M?
Shokin’s office had investigated Burisma, but for actions in 2010-2012, prior to when Hunter Biden arrived in 2014. Shokin took over in 2015 and there was no current investigation of Burisma that required Biden to shield his son from.
Biden, again with the support of the Obama administration, European diplomats, and the IMF, did withhold $1B in aid to pressure Ukraine to move on from Shokin. Somehow this gets painted only as “Biden’s policy” and of course then we need the obligatory quid pro quo. Here, this secret payoff by a company that was not even being actively investigated. A payoff that only Biden and his son received…that apparently was so complex…..that it will evade scrutiny for the next decade….or of course the FBI is shielding him.
Again, it’s kind of ridiculous…and you see it being led by Boebert and MTG in Congress. And I guess we’re supposed to lap it up.
AJ_Liberty (5f05c3) — 6/9/2023 @ 10:23 amIt took her long enough to concoct a statement that says nothing.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/9/2023 @ 10:24 amI didn’t catch that, Rip. Thanks!
BuDuh (921160) — 6/9/2023 @ 10:25 amIt wasn’t even aid, AJ, it was $1 billion in loan guarantees.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/9/2023 @ 10:28 amAgain, the FBI Director (generally) doesn’t make prosecutorial decisions. It should have been left to the incoming administration to decide if she should have been charged. In the end Comey’s statements did more harm than good to HRC.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/9/2023 @ 10:30 amUh-oh
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/9/2023 @ 10:30 amWe don’t know if the charges against Trump are of a “lesser nature.” Assumes facts not in evidence.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/9/2023 @ 10:32 am@76:
It may all be BS, but your argument doesn’t work. Biden may have been acting to help his son’s then-current business with Burisma, which would be helped by killing any investigation of past activities.
And no, not everyone got $5 million, but if Biden had demanded it, his influence was enough to warrant it. It probably would have come out of Hunter’s end, but whatever.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/9/2023 @ 10:34 amJoe Biden was only the vice president then! Somebody could have lied to Burisma then, but more likely the whole thing is Russian disinformation, designed to protect the true recipients of the $10 million. Ukraine had just accused other people of being the recipient(s)
Sammy Finkelman (300a8a) — 6/9/2023 @ 10:37 amTo bring criminal charges, there had to be evidence that Clinton intentionally transmitted or willfully mishandled classified information. There was never any classified information found in her emails.
Trump’s recording shows he was retaining one or more Secret/classified documents that he knew he should not have, but kept anyway. That shows willful and intentional
DRJ (fd3827) — 6/9/2023 @ 10:39 amWe don’t know if the charges against Trump are of a “lesser nature.” Assumes facts not in evidence.
Both were willful, both delayed recovery and/or destroyed evidence. Hillary had held documents as a matter of course, and in a vulnerable electronic form. Were they more important? We will never know. Were they more numerous? We will also never know.
Did Hillary obstruct justice? She’s a lawyer so she probably skated along the edge, she did that for months, and she may crossed the line in a way that was never going to be proved. Trump, being a willful idiot, took no such care.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/9/2023 @ 10:40 amThe indictment was just unsealed. There will be lots more to follow.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/9/2023 @ 10:40 amFat chance of the other Republican candidates suspending their campaigns in support of Trump. And the Dersh can still vote for Trump even if Trump is indicted, convicted, and serving time in prison.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/9/2023 @ 10:43 amThere was never any classified information found in her emails.
This is widely disputed, and ignores the classification level of information at the time she stored it. Things she had were later declassified.
And really, anything that comes out of Lanny Davis’ mouth is a lie.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/9/2023 @ 10:43 amI understanding wanting to equate the Ttump prosecution with not prosecuting Hillary. But Hillary did not have classified information, and the other politicians who did have classified documents (like a reasonable basis to argue documents were retained inadvertently (careless, not intentional).
Trump’s recording makes it hard to argue it was not classified and inadvertent.
So I wonder: Did they ever find the Iran documents?
DRJ (fd3827) — 6/9/2023 @ 10:45 amThat was Comey’s statement, Kevin, and he was not Hillarys buddy.
DRJ (fd3827) — 6/9/2023 @ 10:46 amMore Pundit Reaction:
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/9/2023 @ 10:47 amGuys, do me a favor. Stop with all the dog-bites-man stuff. Of course Keri Lake and MTG and their ilk are going to support their cult leader in all things and everything they say will be deranged. It’s not worth your time, and it’s certainly not worth mine.
Just like Schiff and Rankin and other members of the hard Left cult are going to be pontificating on how “no one is above the law.” It’s something that ChatGPT could write.
Far more interesting is how it plays in Peoria.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/9/2023 @ 10:47 amThat was Comey’s statement, Kevin, and he was not Hillarys buddy.
This is obviously not the same thing.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/9/2023 @ 10:52 amHillary was extremely careless, sloppy, and stupid in handling things as she did. It might have been indictable in today’s world, and I have no problem with that. But I doubt Trump would have been indicted without this smoking gun recording that shows he did it willfully.
DRJ (fd3827) — 6/9/2023 @ 10:52 amHigh federal officials can always claim any mishandling of documents was inadvertent, especially given the sheer volume of material they see. It probably is. The hard part of any prosecution is showing it was done intentionally or willfully, with knowledge it was classified.
DRJ (fd3827) — 6/9/2023 @ 10:57 amWaPo fact check:
Hillary Clinton’s claim that ‘zero emails’ were marked classified
It’s rather complicated.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/9/2023 @ 10:58 amCorrecting comment 90:
… the other politicians who did have classified documents (like Pence) have a reasonable basis to argue documents were retained inadvertently (careless, not intentional).
DRJ (fd3827) — 6/9/2023 @ 10:59 amThank you for the fact check:
DRJ (fd3827) — 6/9/2023 @ 11:00 amIndictment text.
Counts 1-31: Willful Retention of National Defense Information 18 USC 793(e)
Count 32: Conspiracy to Obstruct Justice 18 USC 1512(k)
Counts 33-34: Withholding A Document or Record 18 USC 1512(b)(2)(A) 2)
Count 35: Concealing a Document in a Federal Investigation 1 8USC 1519, 2)
Count 36: Scheme to Conceal 18 USC 1001( a)( 1), 2)
Counts 37-38: False Statements and Representations 18 USC 1001(a)(2) , 2)
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/9/2023 @ 11:01 amNone were marked classified.
DRJ (fd3827) — 6/9/2023 @ 11:01 amBut I doubt Trump would have been indicted without this smoking gun recording that shows he did it willfully.
Her email server in her bathroom with no security to speak of was IN AND OF ITSELF a crime, which she committed willfully.
Now, why did she do this? Also a crime. Federal law requires that all official electronic communication be logged and recorded on government servers. She did not want such a paper trail, so she used an off-the-books email address and her own server (since a commercial account could be subpoenaed).
This is a violation of the same records law that Trump is being accused of violating,, and the violation is in the 100s or thousands of records. For Hillary to claim that this was an innocent mistake is risible.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/9/2023 @ 11:04 am* 100s OF thousands
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/9/2023 @ 11:04 amNone were marked classified.
As stored.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/9/2023 @ 11:05 am“gross negligence and mishandling TS and TS:SCI documents….But the different outcome wrt Hillary is hard to ignore.”
Nothing stopped Trump from pushing for a special prosecutor and impaneling a grand jury. We have to somehow pretend that James Comey’s recommendation was the final assessment on Hillary’s matter. If the GOP wanted her indicted, then they should have pushed for it. Instead, now we get this “Deep State” meme where Trump is such a victim. After pushing the “lock her up” meme and being given ample opportunity to turn over his classified documents, he chose to withhold and obstruct. The details may be different enough that it doesn’t scream prosecutorial discretion. We should probably wait until we see Smith’s arguments…the degree of obstruction and chutzpah might be noteworthy.
AJ_Liberty (5f05c3) — 6/9/2023 @ 11:07 am@100:
Thanks Rip. Reading it now.
Pp. 6 a & b should be a problem for Trump. That is unlawful dissemination which makes the case quite different.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/9/2023 @ 11:11 amOther than all those screaming that the DOJ is an independent branch and Trump should be impeached for trying to influence them.
Now, not so much.
NJRob (762bec) — 6/9/2023 @ 11:12 amTrump’s body man (Nauta) also indicted.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/9/2023 @ 11:12 amRob, I don’t see that Biden needed to tell Smith to indict. Trump’s actions were clumsy and criminal.
The issue is really why Hillary’s clear attempts to circumvent federal laws regarding government information, classified or not — as a rule, not an exception — was not prosecuted.
But this is a political question, not legal one. Whaddabout has no place in court.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/9/2023 @ 11:16 amI updated the summary on the Weekend Open thread to include the charges against Trump’s valet.
Rip Murdock (afd316) — 6/9/2023 @ 11:16 amIf the description of the recording in the indictment is accurate, that’s the whole ball game, right there.
I have to admit that the cynical part of me expected this but i’m *still* shocked.
aphrael (b60ebf) — 6/9/2023 @ 11:19 am> In July 2021, at Trump National Golf Club in Bedminster, New Jersey ( The Bedminster Club ), during an audio- recorded meeting with a writer,
aphrael (b60ebf) — 6/9/2023 @ 11:20 ama publisher, and two members of his staff, none of whom possessed a security clearance, TRUMP showed and described a plan of attack that TRUMP said was prepared for him by the Department of Defense and a
senior military official. TRUMP told the individuals that the plan was highly confidential and secret. TRUMP also said, as presidentI could have declassified it, and, Now I can’t, you know, but this is still a secret.
The storage of boxes at Mar-a-Lago is obscene. Out in the open and available to, well, anyone during crowded events. Not to mention workers and staff who likely did not have clearances.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/9/2023 @ 11:21 amPrediction: Unless Trump covers his defense costs, his valet will fold quickly.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/9/2023 @ 11:24 amThey do not seem to have charged Trump with dissemination.
I can see Nauta agreeing to testify to avoid jail.
Counts 33-35 were what Sandy Berger did.
If convicted, Trump would do hard time. There is really no way around it.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/9/2023 @ 11:29 amPrediction: Unless Trump covers his defense costs, his valet will fold quickly.
I don’t see how that would help as 1) they have him dead to rights on the false statements, and 2) taking it to trial would lead to a harsh sentence tempered only by the harshness of Trump’s sentence.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/9/2023 @ 11:31 am“Biden may have been acting to help his son’s then-current business with Burisma, which would be helped by killing any investigation of past activities.”
This is nonsense. There was NO investigation of Burisma when Shokin was fired. The matter from 2010-2012 had already been resolved. It’s not like this stuff is hidden somewhere
“And no, not everyone got $5 million, but if Biden had demanded it, his influence was enough to warrant it.”
So it still makes sense that Burisma would pay $10M to get rid of a prosecutor not investigating them….when the EU and IMF also wants that prosecutor gone. Wouldn’t it make more sense that the recipient of the loan guarantee would be the one getting blackmailed? Of course, that doesn’t make sense practically either. How about come up with a narrative that actually comports with what we know?
AJ_Liberty (5f05c3) — 6/9/2023 @ 11:31 amKevin M at 117 – if they can get the valet to testify against Trump, that makes it even harder for Trump to avoid hard time.
aphrael (b60ebf) — 6/9/2023 @ 11:44 amIt is obvious that Walt Nauta stayed loyal to Trump, and the indictment is the thanks he gets. Now that he faces a multi-count indictment that will cost thousands of dollars to defend. He has a choice: he can plead guilty and testify against Trump, (especially if he can’t afford to defend himself at trial) or Trump could stand by him and cover his defense costs. The charges he shares with Trump (counts 33-36) have a maximum sentence of 20 years each.
Which one is more likely?
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/9/2023 @ 11:47 amThe key language in the Espionage Act is the “willful retention” of “materials relating to the national defense”. This doesn’t preclude that Hillary ran across national defense materials, but she was State Department, not DoD.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/9/2023 @ 11:48 amBTW, my opinion hasn’t changed that she should’ve been indicted for “gross negligence”. The existence of her home-brewed server should’ve been enough, but I don’t see how that compares to Trump’s multiple crimes and fairly blatant obstruction. Fer cryin’ out loud, he stored boxes of presidential records, some of them likely containing classified materials, in his freaking ballroom.
Giuliani: What’s missing here is any harm to the United States.
…that anyone who could harm the United States got anywhere near thedse documents.
Sammy Finkelman (300a8a) — 6/9/2023 @ 11:53 amwe have an allegation that soome documents were taken to Bedminster so that his attorneys wouldn;t find them.
We have interpretation of sign language,
We have a lawyer’s notes being quoted that Trump asked if he had to return themm – you;re allowed to ask your lawyers questions like thaat says Greg Kelly.
Sammy Finkelman (300a8a) — 6/9/2023 @ 11:55 amMore House Reaction:
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/9/2023 @ 11:56 amAJ_Liberty (5f05c3) — 6/9/2023 @ 11:31 am
Russian intelligence doesn’t usually do this.
They knew and know, the allegation that Biden got a bribe was wrong, but they should not have kept it from Congressional oversight..
Sammy Finkelman (300a8a) — 6/9/2023 @ 12:01 pmThe entire Republican party needs to burn down for their reaction to this.
aphrael (b60ebf) — 6/9/2023 @ 12:01 pmMaybe it was tthe other way around.
House Republicans pushed forward the allegation because they knew an indictment over the documents could be coming.
The timing of the indictment is to do this well ahead of the election, snd becsuse they got their testimony.
Sammy Finkelman (300a8a) — 6/9/2023 @ 12:04 pmThe entire Republican party needs to burn down for their reaction to this.
There are only about 5 GOP reps who need to be taken out and shot.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/9/2023 @ 12:05 pmThere’s also the IRS whistleblower allegation that Hunter Biden’s audit was given special protection — and that one is real.
They even lately replaced the whole audit team.
Sammy Finkelman (300a8a) — 6/9/2023 @ 12:06 pmIn the end, this is political. It could not be any other way in a country where damn near everything is political.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/9/2023 @ 12:07 pm…that anyone who could harm the United States got anywhere near these documents.
See page 10-18 of the indictment. The janitor’s sister could have copied them all and sent them to Cuba and no one would ever know.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/9/2023 @ 12:10 pm111. 112. Trummp didn’t sdhow the ghostwriters any documents so they could read it.
He described a plan of attack on Iran. It happens all the time with reporters, and if people were prosecuted for, half or more would be indicted. Now maybe that is because investigation of leaks isn’t rigorous. But it is all for the good.
Sammy Finkelman (300a8a) — 6/9/2023 @ 12:14 pmNot very likely.
Nobody even knew there were any secret documents to find and they were all mixed up.
Sammy Finkelman (300a8a) — 6/9/2023 @ 12:17 pmand mixed with other memorabilia.
Sammy Finkelman (300a8a) — 6/9/2023 @ 12:18 pmWhere things are properly filed and known to be there – that’s where spies want to go. And have gone.
Sammy Finkelman (300a8a) — 6/9/2023 @ 12:20 pmNothing is preventing Trump from raising how Clinton, Biden, and Pence were treated differently in a motion to dismiss or during the trial. He is completely entitled to make that argument.
Rip Murdock (aed69e) — 6/9/2023 @ 12:27 pmFBI Director Wray was suddenly becoming more co-operative with the Republican House committee about the bribe allegation, but how that works into a conspiracy of timing I do not know.
Sammy Finkelman (300a8a) — 6/9/2023 @ 12:35 pmTrump would probably need to argue prosecutorial misconduct.
Sammy Finkelman (300a8a) — 6/9/2023 @ 12:37 pmAccording to the indictment (page 8), Trump had documents from the following agencies: the Central Intelligence Agency, the Depts. of Defense, State, and Energy, the National Security Agency, the National Geospatial Intelligence Agency, the National Reconnaissance Office, the State Dept. Bureau of Intelligence and Research.
On pages 28-31 is a list of 31 individual documents with their dates, security classification, and vague summary of what they contain found at MAL, which were held “in violation of 18 USC 793(e).
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/9/2023 @ 1:14 pmMore Republicans Falling in Line:
Feel free then to pass a law forbidding the indictments of former Presidents, Vice-Presidents, and current presidential candidates.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/9/2023 @ 1:24 pmthe documents she had were not marked Secret or classified. The Trump charges involve mishandling of document(s) marked Secret/classified. There may be other charges that could have been brought against Hillary for discussing Secret/classified issues in emails on an unsecured server, but this is not that law.
DRJ (fd3827) — 6/9/2023 @ 1:25 pmDRJ (fd3827) — 6/9/2023 @ 1:25 pm
Actually, a few were, by mistake.
She gave instructions when her daily schedulewas sent toher they should not be marked (c) for confidential but sometimes they were.
That is not to say that Hillary did not sell or turn over secret government information. But if she did it, she did it differently – in her State Department office, in person; by a printed out fax sent to her home in DC; or verbally.
It was not supposed to be even possible for classified information to get on her system. It substituted for the State Department’s unclassified email system.
Hillary in fact caused the whole investigation herself by saying she wanted everything (that was left after deleting anything that was not sent to a government address or mentioned Libya or Benghazi – the subject of the Congressional subpoena – she also destroyed the meta data and the attachments) to be made public.
Among the numerous other government records.
Sammy FInkelman (1d215a) — 6/9/2023 @ 2:32 pmActually, a few were, by mistake.
Link, please.
DRJ (fd3827) — 6/9/2023 @ 3:11 pmTrump stored classified documents in boxes a ballroom, a bathroom and shower, an office space, his bedroom, and a storage room.
DRJ (fd3827) — 6/9/2023 @ 3:36 pmCBS’ Major Garrett: Trump probably kept them to settle scores, and to brag,The indictment starts with the subpoena which (could mean) if he only complied with the subpoena, this all goes away.
Sammy Finkelman (25fa75) — 6/9/2023 @ 3:50 pmHe moved them to a bathroomm etc to hide them from the people who came to get them.
Sammy Finkelman (25fa75) — 6/9/2023 @ 3:52 pmI remember some of Hillary’s emails were marked confidential. The Wikipedia article seems to think none were.
Sammy Finkelman (25fa75) — 6/9/2023 @ 3:56 pmSammy,
Of course they were
NJRob (ac3fa7) — 6/9/2023 @ 5:20 pmDon’t forget, the shoe dropped when Anthony Weiner’s laptop was searched and Huma was found having Hillary’s confidential docs.
Trump could stand by him and cover his defense costs
Still goes to jail. He may not want that.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/9/2023 @ 5:36 pmThe existence of her home-brewed server should’ve been enough
Since it was created expressly to circumvent the Federal Records Act (and the Freedom of Information Act, and probably other laws), in itself it is a crime. The reason she had her own server was not to protect government secrets, but to protect Hillary’s secrets. Even if no classified information was ever on it, it was 300,000 violations of the law.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/9/2023 @ 5:42 pm@118: This is why I don’t get into these Hunter Biden things. I don’t have the energy to try to keep everyone’s lies straight.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/9/2023 @ 5:44 pmNot very likely.
Unless the answer is “totally 100%% impossible and I’d stake my life on it” it’s not good enough. Storing them at the side of a ballroom that is rented out for parties is just so terribly insecure that it boggles the mind that someone could defend that.
Of course there will be 3 jurors who argue just that, after lying their asses off during voir dire.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/9/2023 @ 5:48 pmHe is completely entitled to make that argument.
Or that space aliens beamed all that crap into Mar-a-Lago. It will work as well. Maybe better.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/9/2023 @ 5:50 pmHere’s the best 2024 case for the Republicans:
1. Trump takes a plea deal where he withdraws from politics and pays a fine. All other cases are dropped.
2. The GOP uses the “political attack” on their candidate as a campaign strategy — throw the corrupt bums out.
3. Much confusion ensues.
4. Without Trump to run against, Biden loses.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/9/2023 @ 5:59 pmA Trump-Appointed Judge Who Showed Him Favor Gets the Documents Case
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/9/2023 @ 6:34 pm@85
That’s gaslighting.
She was questioned, on record mind you, about what does the annotation of “(C)” means in the documents found at her unclass email address.
We can talk about two things at once.
What Trump did was bad.
What Clinton did was bad too.
whembly (d087cf) — 6/11/2023 @ 7:44 am@DRJ:
That’s what I was talking about when I said some of her mail was accidently marked classified.
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 6/16/2023 @ 2:42 pm