Mike Pence and Chris Christie Make It Official
[guest post by Dana]
Mike Pence has officially launched his bid for the presidency:
I believe in the American people, and I have faith God is not done with America yet. Together, we can bring this Country back, and the best days for the Greatest Nation on Earth are yet to come! 🇺🇸 #Pence2024 pic.twitter.com/A8EkqgCDAm
— Mike Pence (@Mike_Pence) June 7, 2023
Unfortunately for Pence, the Republican Party doesn’t seem terribly interested in his brand of conservatism, at least if it doesn’t come with clenched fists ready to brawl. However, this transition of the Party didn’t happen without Pence’s own willingness to avert his eyes:
Mr. Pence served as Mr. Trump’s yes-man for three years and 11 months. In that final month, Mr. Pence refused to follow a presidential order that was plainly unconstitutional: to single-handedly overturn the 2020 election. His loyalty to the Constitution was rewarded with people in a pro-Trump mob chanting “Hang Mike Pence” as they stormed the Capitol, while Mr. Pence and his family rushed to a barely secure room.
Instead of punishing Mr. Trump for how he treated Mr. Pence, Republican voters have made him their front-runner. More than 50 percent of Republicans support the former president in national polls. Mr. Pence draws around 4 percent. Even in heavily evangelical Iowa, where Mr. Pence is staking his candidacy, he polls around 5 percent.
…
But it’s not just Mr. Pence’s anti-populist policies that hobble him. It’s that Republican voters have sharply different expectations of their leaders than they did during Mr. Pence’s political rise as a member of Congress and then governor of Indiana.
For the past seven years, Mr. Trump has trained Republican voters to value a different set of virtues in their candidates. He has trained them to value Republicans who fight hard and dirty, using whatever tactics are necessary to vanquish their opponents. He has also trained them to avert their gazes from behaviors that were once considered disqualifying.
For four years, Mr. Pence, too, averted his gaze. He stuck with Mr. Trump through numerous controversies including the leak of the “Access Hollywood” tape, in which Mr. Trump boasted about grabbing women’s genitalia. He vouched for Mr. Trump’s character with skeptical evangelicals with whom Mr. Trump ultimately forged his own relationship.
When Mr. Trump, as president, showered praise on the North Korean leader Kim Jong-un, his vice president, bound by loyalty, stayed silent. Yet recently on the campaign trail, after Mr. Trump had congratulated Mr. Kim for his country’s readmission to the World Health Organization’s executive board, Mr. Pence scolded his former boss for “praising the dictator in North Korea.”
Mr. Pence may finally feel liberated to tell voters what he really thinks about Mr. Trump. His problem is that most Republicans don’t want to hear it.
(emphasis added)
Meanwhile, Chris Christie has also entered the race. The once-Trump ally seems convinced that he alone is the candidate that will take down Trump:
I’m the only candidate who can take on Donald Trump and tell the truth.
Every other Republican thinks they can tiptoe around him. I don’t tiptoe.
Get me on the stage and get your popcorn ready: https://t.co/6bndZTT9OO
— Chris Christie (@GovChristie) June 6, 2023
As he said in New Hampshire on Tuesday (a state in which Trump easily beat his opponent in 2020…):
“I can’t guarantee you success in what I’m about to do. But I guarantee you that at the end of it, you will have no doubt in my mind who I am and what I stand for and whether I deserve it,” Christie said, partially referencing a letter from founding father John Adams to his wife Abigail Adams. “That’s why I came back to New Hampshire to tell all of you that I intend to seek the Republican nomination for President of the United States in 2024.”
He then name-checked Trump:
Christie said other Republican candidates are treating Trump like the Harry Potter villain Voldemort, tip-toeing around criticizing him by name.
“Let me be clear, in case I have not been already,” Christie said after bashing Trump. “The person I am talking about — who is obsessed with the mirror, who never admits a mistake, who never admits a fault and who always finds someone else and something else to blame for whatever goes wrong, but finds every reason to take credit for anything that goes right — is Donald Trump.”
–Dana
Hello.
Dana (560c99) — 6/7/2023 @ 10:30 amDon’t forget Doug Burgum.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/7/2023 @ 10:36 amChristie: disgruntled former office-seeker
Pence: disgruntled former office-holder
The Pence Lesson: Trump will always screw you in the end. Melania should take note.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/7/2023 @ 10:40 amThere is only one thing that makes sense here: They all know something about Donald Trump’s future and it does not involve him remaining a candidate. There is information floating around the Secret Masters Club that we are not yet privy to.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/7/2023 @ 10:42 amWhen people say that the GOP has surrendered to Donald Trump, look again at all these people challenging him. This is not what “surrender” looks like. It may be Quixotic, but it is not surrender.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/7/2023 @ 10:45 amScott Walker today in the WSJ (free link), on what he should have done:
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/7/2023 @ 10:51 amLOL!
Morning Consult Tracking Poll 6/6/23
One of the criteria to participate in the Milwaukee Republican primary debate is standing in at least three national polls.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/7/2023 @ 10:55 amSupporting one of Lilliputians is truly quixotic, something which I do. I just have low expectations for them.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/7/2023 @ 10:58 amWho?
/sarc
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/7/2023 @ 11:09 amWho?
That’s actually his point. But read the whole thing.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/7/2023 @ 11:29 amSupporting one of Lilliputians is truly quixotic, something which I do. I just have low expectations for them.
Suppose, somehow, maybe an Act of God, that Trump was no longer available to run. What then?
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/7/2023 @ 11:30 amI’d vote for any of ’em, even Pence, because they’re not Trump.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/7/2023 @ 11:33 amBut Pence has no valid reason to run. Asa Hutchinson already occupies that small space where traditional conservatives inhabit, and Pence is splotched with that awful taint of being Trump’s VP.
Pence being a pushover 1,460 out of 1,461 days of his vice presidency is not a Profile in Courage.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/7/2023 @ 11:34 am@2
Who?
Seriously… but why?
whembly (d116f3) — 6/7/2023 @ 11:36 amI’ll watch how the Lilliputians perform against DeSantis. The Trump wing of the Republican primary field (Trump, DeSantis, Vivek) currently is far out performing the non-Trump wing (Darling Nikki is somewhere between the two). Outside of Hutchinson, and now Christie, no one has completely broken with Trump and Trumpism. That would be my first criterion of support.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/7/2023 @ 11:40 amSeriously, Pence was so brave that it took him over a year to criticize Trump for putting his family in danger on J6.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/7/2023 @ 11:48 amWhy not? He’s conservative (signing anti-transgender bills and one of the toughest abortion laws in the country) but not a fire-breather, interested in energy policy, a successful entrepreneur (selling his software company to Microsoft for $1.1B) so he can spend nearly unlimited amounts of his own money, and has none of the baggage (except lack of name recognition) of anyone in the race. If both Trump and DeSantis flame out, he could be poised to take over the race. When he ran for governor he was polling at 10% at the time and won by more than 10%.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/7/2023 @ 11:54 amno one has completely broken with Trump and Trumpism. That would be my first criterion of support.
You are destined for the wilderness then. The GOP will not “completely break with … Trumpism” in your lifetime. The status quo ante is unrecoverable.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/7/2023 @ 12:22 pm@17
I mean… he has my vote if he’s the nominee, but he has little to no name recognition outside of his state.
It’s just that, he dilutes the “not-Trump” votes.
I worry that it’s only helping Trump when there’s that many candidates vying for the nomination.
I don’t WANT Trump, and I think it’s a majority of GOP voters. So, those voters need to come together somehow.
whembly (d116f3) — 6/7/2023 @ 12:26 pmPence is splotched with that awful taint of being Trump’s VP.
Which is why being his running mate or, God forbid, one of his Cabinet officers is not the plum it seems. It’s like being a kid in a drunk’s household and having to constantly explain your bruises.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/7/2023 @ 12:27 pmWhen he ran for governor he was polling at 10% at the time and won by more than 10%.
In North Dakota those percentages are far easier to come by.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/7/2023 @ 12:29 pmTrump’s lawyers have been told that a federal indictment is coming shortly.
https://justthenews.com/politics-policy/all-things-trump/feds-inform-trump-he-target-likely-be-indicted-doj-rebuffs
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/7/2023 @ 12:31 pmPence seems like the type of guy who doesn’t like to put out the dirty laundry, prefers to keep it in house. Pence has zero chance of winning more than 3% of the primary vote with a possible exception in Indiana where he might still hit single digits. Pence would be a massive improvement at Secretary of Transportation over fellow Hoosier Buttigieg
steveg (1e2f4c) — 6/7/2023 @ 12:43 pmChristie seems like he wants to run in the primary as the Trump wrecking ball, mean cop to Pence’s nice cop, and is really running for AG or as head of some 3 letter agency.
Haley wants to be President and should not be underestimated, but she needs to connect with voters
Scott wants to be President, has the best true life story (unlike Biden). If Scott is the GOP nominee, do not engage in any drinking games where you slam a beer every time a Democrat calls Scott some form of household help. Your liver will give out within days
The current polling says otherwise.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/7/2023 @ 1:40 pmMe and the country.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/7/2023 @ 1:40 pmLike his prediction of his imminent arrest in NY, I’ll believe when I see it.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/7/2023 @ 1:44 pmThe cynic in me is saying that all these candidates are throwing their hats in now because they smell more indictments in the water.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/7/2023 @ 1:52 pmI watched 30min of Christie’s announcement before CNN broke away to do its own hyperventilating about the grand jury in Florida (yes news, but beyond 30sec, all speculation).
Christie was an adult….talking about leadership and not dividing our country further. He emphasized that Obama, Trump, and Biden have mainly kept us divided and have made the country smaller as a consequence. I thought the speech was well constructed, but it also told some hard truths about who we’ve become as a nation. His jabs at Trump were affective, though I wish I had heard the second half of the speech to see where they went. I don’t know how much of the base tuned in and how they might have reacted.
It will be a challenge for Christie to get to the debate stage, especially with him bypassing Iowa again which isn’t going to help him get to the threshold polling, but maybe. He needs NeverTrump to lift him onto the debate stage. He’s certainly smart and looks and sounds like the prosecutor he was. It’s a tough base for him to surmount, but his job is to change the terms of debate. Let him go.
Pence just doesn’t do anything for me. Maybe my ask was too big, but I really wanted him to cooperate with the J6 committee and drive the narrative that Trump was unfit. Anything he does just seems too little too late. I just don’t trust his judgment.
AJ_Liberty (5f05c3) — 6/7/2023 @ 1:55 pmI disagree that Trumpism (hopefully) is the forever future of the Republican party. There are leaders (like Sununu and others) who are not beholden to Trump or Trumpism. Haley could be one of them, but she wants to be Trump’s (or DeSantis’s) VP.
If Trumpism (conspiracy mongering, paranoid, denigrating to ones’ opponents, narcissistic, rejection of democratic norms and rules, deliberately oblivious to overseas threats, not just kowtowing but congratulatory toward dictatorships) is the future of the Republican Party, then should have no future.
But it probably will.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/7/2023 @ 2:03 pm@24
Polling is crapshoot this early.
At this time of the year Rudy Guiliani was leading the pack in 2015.
whembly (d116f3) — 6/7/2023 @ 2:05 pmTrump may be indicted but I’ll bet he will still run and probably win the nomination. As James Comey said, Trump could be giving his nomination acceptance speech wearing an ankle bracelet.
Any trial(s) won’t start until next year at the earliest, and like with the NY indictment, Trump will delay, delay, delay……..and delay.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/7/2023 @ 2:08 pmPolling this early is being used by the Republican National Committee to determine who gets on the debate stage.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/7/2023 @ 2:09 pmDoug Burgum: Why I’m Running for President in 2024
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/7/2023 @ 2:16 pmSame here. Cooperating with J6 would have not only been the right thing to do, I think, but it would have also clearly signaled that Pence was making a final break from Trump. No loyalties, and no fear about ticking off his former boss. As it stands, he appears timid and concerned as he gingerly walks on eggshells re Trump.
Dana (560c99) — 6/7/2023 @ 2:45 pmThings are moving, and it should put a skip in the steps of the candidates not named Trump.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/7/2023 @ 2:55 pmMore on possible Trump MAL indictment:
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/7/2023 @ 3:04 pmHere is a link to Sec. 793 of the Espionage Act.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/7/2023 @ 3:12 pm“No one has told me I’m being indicted, and I shouldn’t be because I’ve done NOTHING wrong, but I have assumed for years that I am a Target of the WEAPONIZED DOJ & FBI,” Trump said in a post Wednesday on his Truth Social platform.
……….
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/7/2023 @ 3:04 pm
“I frequently use ALL CAPS, and even Capitalize words that shouldn’t be capitalized, so as to get the attention of
the rubesmy supporters.”DJT
norcal (8b5267) — 6/7/2023 @ 3:33 pmThe current polling says otherwise.
The media echo chamber. Don’t be a sheep.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/7/2023 @ 3:34 pmI often marvel how well our country works, in spite of so many idiots within it.
norcal (8b5267) — 6/7/2023 @ 3:34 pmIf Scott is the GOP nominee, do not engage in any drinking games where you slam a beer every time a Democrat calls Scott some form of household help.
This will stop when they get the poll numbers back from Black voters.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/7/2023 @ 3:36 pmThe cynic in me is saying that all these candidates are throwing their hats in now because they smell more indictments in the water.
@4
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/7/2023 @ 3:37 pmAnything he does just seems too little too late. I just don’t trust his judgment.
Even a candid tell-all afterwards would have been too little too late. The man was in a position to witness any number of illegal acts, yet he kept silent.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/7/2023 @ 3:40 pmIndictments won’t have the desired effect of splitting Trump’s voters away from him. They will either cling to him until the bitter end or just not vote.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/7/2023 @ 3:41 pmEven a candid tell-all afterwards would have been too little too late. The man was in a position to witness any number of illegal acts, yet he kept silent.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/7/2023 @ 3:40 pm
Yes.
“Dynamic” is not a word that exists in Pence’s universe.
norcal (8b5267) — 6/7/2023 @ 3:42 pmAny trial(s) won’t start until next year at the earliest, and like with the NY indictment, Trump will delay, delay, delay……..and delay.
He may try, but judges don’t have to go along. He has a right to a speedy trial, he does not have a right to his preference of delay. I don’t know if they give bail in Espionage Act cases.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/7/2023 @ 3:43 pmPolling this early is being used by the Republican National Committee to determine who gets on the debate stage.
A 1% rule lets about 8 people on the stage.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/7/2023 @ 3:44 pmIt’s like the Garrett Morris/Chevy Chase skit on SNL-“News For The Hard of Hearing.”
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/7/2023 @ 3:45 pmThe Justice Department might need to bring any criminal charges within the district in which they occurred, some former prosecutors said.
Considering that is what the Constitution says, it’s a fair guess.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/7/2023 @ 3:46 pmThere is also a fund raising criterion: Have a minimum of 40,000 unique donors to candidate’s principal presidential campaign committee (or exploratory committee), with at least 200 unique donors per state or territory in 20+ states and/or territories. That could kickoff some Lilliputians.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/7/2023 @ 3:47 pm18 U.S. Code § 794 – Gathering or delivering defense information to aid foreign government
(a) Whoever, with intent or reason to believe that it is to be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of a foreign nation, communicates, delivers, or transmits, or attempts to communicate, deliver, or transmit, to any foreign government, or to any faction or party or military or naval force within a foreign country, whether recognized or unrecognized by the United States, or to any representative, officer, agent, employee, subject, or citizen thereof, either directly or indirectly, any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, note, instrument, appliance, or information relating to the national defense, shall be punished by death or by imprisonment for any term of years or for life, except that the sentence of death shall not be imposed unless the jury or, if there is no jury, the court, further finds that the offense resulted in the identification by a foreign power (as defined in section 101(a) of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978) of an individual acting as an agent of the United States and consequently in the death of that individual, or directly concerned nuclear weaponry, military spacecraft or satellites, early warning systems, or other means of defense or retaliation against large-scale attack; war plans; communications intelligence or cryptographic information; or any other major weapons system or major element of defense strategy.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/7/2023 @ 3:51 pmOn one side of his mouth, Pence said that Trump should “never be president of the United States again,” and on the other side of his mouth agreed to the RNC pledge to support the Republican nominee. Sigh.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/7/2023 @ 3:53 pm@51: Asa Hutchinson and ND Governor Watsisname might have a problem with that. Christie has a network from past years and Nikki and Scott are well past that number.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/7/2023 @ 3:53 pm@53: I agree with Hutchinson that the pledge ought to be “will not run a 3rd party campaign; loyalty oaths suck” or words to that effect.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/7/2023 @ 3:55 pmWhat is the evidence that Trump intended, or had reason to believe, the classified documents would be used “to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of a foreign nation” or to be transferred to a foreign government or party?
That’s a pretty big matzo ball hanging out there.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/7/2023 @ 3:59 pmThat’s the price for participating in the RNC debates. Which is why Gulliver (Trump) won’t be there (and it’s not to his advantage to be punching bag).
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/7/2023 @ 4:03 pmWhich is why Gulliver (Trump) won’t be there (and it’s not to his advantage to be punching bag).
Trump is the DCSCA of every debate. He won’t be missed. And when he finds out that it wasn’t all about him, he’ll return to troll later debates.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/7/2023 @ 4:25 pmPence appeases Trump and enters the Republican primary
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/7/2023 @ 4:26 pmThe large field is indicative of Trump’s looming incarceration.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/7/2023 @ 4:27 pmComedy gold!
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/7/2023 @ 4:36 pmThat is about as accurate as your prediction that Trump could face the death penalty, which is to say not at all.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/7/2023 @ 4:42 pmAndrew McCarthy doesn’t believe that Trump will be indicted for mishandling the documents, because that would call into question why Mike Pence wasn’t prosecuted and would reflect very poorly on Joe Biden’s own mishandling. He thinks that the indictment likely only be with respect to the obstruction of the investigation.
JVW (08ac24) — 6/7/2023 @ 4:50 pmsupreme court justices release new financial disclosure statements for more transparency. Guess who refuses? Good guess thomas and samy the fish alito.
asset (a1b1bc) — 6/7/2023 @ 4:52 pmThe reason there are so many people running for the Republican nomination is simple: Republicans are the party out of power and they think Biden is beatable.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/7/2023 @ 4:58 pmThe difference between the Pence and Biden cases and Trump is that Pence and Biden quickly surrendered the documents, but Trump fought tooth and nail to keep his (and possibly induced his lawyers to lie about it).
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/7/2023 @ 5:02 pmIf biden and pence skate and trumps indicted things could get interesting as mr. spock says!
asset (a1b1bc) — 6/7/2023 @ 5:08 pmThe difference between the Pence and Biden cases and Trump is that Pence and Biden quickly surrendered the documents, but Trump fought tooth and nail to keep his (and possibly induced his lawyers to lie about it).
Hence why McCarthy thinks the indictment will be about obstruction, not mishandling.
JVW (917b25) — 6/7/2023 @ 5:16 pmThe universe isn’t limited to ex-Presidents or Vice Presidents, the universe is how anyone who has pled or found guilty of illegally retaining classified information has been treated, and those people have usually gone to prison.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/7/2023 @ 5:30 pmBummer.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/7/2023 @ 5:34 pmI don’t think the Fort Lee scandal will hurt Christie much this time around. The unanimous Supreme Court decision that the US Attorney didn’t know what wire fraud is/was lets Christie say both: “I did not participate and besides the Supreme Court decision proved that partisan hack appointed by Obama is a moron”, even though this from Justice Kagan casts some shade on Christie’s staff that puts a little stink back on him “That requirement (property) this Court has made clear, prevents these statutes from criminalizing all acts of dishonesty by state and local officials.”
How far can Christie bounce back? Low single digits?
steveg (f35c69) — 6/7/2023 @ 5:46 pmPunch Trump hard for the next year or so and then hope for a job
Guy from No Dak is a darkhorse, he has money, but is the US ever going to elect someone without an f-ing pedigree again? No. Single digits for 8 figures spent
By they way, I’m happy to be wrong about any of the candidates except Trump. I don’t think he’ll make it to the finish as GOP #1 and even though we all know he is a #2 I don’t see him rising to the top of the bowl
steveg (f35c69) — 6/7/2023 @ 5:51 pmI’m watching Pence on the CNN townhall and he engaged in some major waffling about Trump’s document problem, saying on one side of his mouth that Trump should get equal treatment under the law but on the other side that he shouldn’t be indicted because it’s “divisive”, which puts Trump above the law.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/7/2023 @ 6:16 pm“At this time of the year Rudy Guiliani was leading the pack in 2015.”
I think you meant 2007. Scott Walker in 2015.
AJ_Liberty (8b6951) — 6/7/2023 @ 6:59 pmThat is about as accurate as your prediction that Trump could face the death penalty, which is to say not at all.
I never predicted that. I just hoped for it. If he did face a severe penalty then the Agnew Option become credible.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/7/2023 @ 7:06 pmbecause that would call into question why Mike Pence wasn’t prosecuted and would reflect very poorly on Joe Biden’s own mishandling.
Well, there is that audio recording which steps over a different line.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/7/2023 @ 7:07 pmdissemination case is particularly egregious, as an illegal retention case deals only with the risk of improper dissemination, not the actuality. …….
Indeed. Almost all incarceration is due to either dissemination, suspected dissemination (that guy who got 3 years), or abject carelessness so bad as to likely result in dissemination (the case with Hillary). Someone who did what Biden or Pence did would not usually be jailed, although they would likely lose their clearance.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/7/2023 @ 7:14 pmPunch Trump hard for the next year or so and then hope for a job
He didn’t get a job after a year of ass-kissing, why should he get one now?
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/7/2023 @ 7:17 pmAs for what they will charge, we don’t know what the others involved have discussed. It may be worse than we think — Trump is capable for really stupid stuff.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/7/2023 @ 7:19 pmIf Burgum gets the nomination, it almost guarantees that the GOP will once again carry ND. And as a software entrepreneur, he might be the one candidate that could test the security of our electoral process. Of course, if he polls this week at 63%, we wil know he’s onto something. At minimum, king of the Lilliputians!
AJ_Liberty (459e7c) — 6/7/2023 @ 7:21 pmThe universe isn’t limited to ex-Presidents or Vice Presidents, the universe is how anyone who has pled or found guilty of illegally retaining classified information has been treated, and those people have usually gone to prison.
Rip, why are we going back and forth on this? The point is that we’ve already seen that Hillary Clinton was given a whole hell of a lot of leeway in the investigation of her that nobody else residing in “the universe” of illegally retained classified information violators has been given. We may all believe that Trump was guilty and desire his punishment, but all Andy McCarthy is trying to point out (and I am agreeing to) is that the James Comey/Loretta Lynch decision to let Hillary Clinton skate is going to complicate the efforts to nail Donald Trump. And I don’t really care about how closely anybody wants to parse the details of the respective cases, the fact that the Clinton team deleted email messages without authorization, destroyed hard-drives and devices, and repeatedly told investigators (or at least told the public) that they had turned over all of the “personal” emails only to have thousands more suddenly appear out of nowhere suggests that she obstructed the investigations too. It’s just that she had allies on her side which Trump lacks.
JVW (65bed0) — 6/7/2023 @ 8:23 pmI don’t know that Christie has always been entirely inside the law and he can be petty, but he seems practical and I have appreciation for that. Haley also has potential, IMO, but I’m so tired of people banging on about trans people. They are a tiny portion of the population.
Nic (896fdf) — 6/7/2023 @ 9:16 pmThere were two critical aspects about Comey and Hillary.
First, he said that she was “extremely careless”, which carries no legal penalty, and he avoided the phrase “gross negligence” (discussion here), where criminality attaches. Personally, I think “gross negligence” applied but Comey didn’t go there.
Second, Comey stated in his infamous July 2016 public statement that Hillary cooperated with the investigation, while Trump did the opposite of cooperating.
One other thing, it’s not like Comey was the final word on investigating Hillary. Under Trump, and probably at his urging, both Tillerson and Pompeo tried to nail Hillary and they didn’t or couldn’t come up the goods.
With Trump, the case is clear-cut, IMO. He took and willfully retained materials relating to the national defense, and then he obstructed their return, which falls squarely under the Espionage Act. If only he’d returned the materials when asked, but his vain overinflated ego would have none of that.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/7/2023 @ 9:44 pmpled or found guilty of illegally retaining classified information has been treated, and those people have usually gone to prison.
You keep saying this and it is still not true. People who mishandle classified information usually do NOT go to prison unless 1) they disseminated it, or 2) it looks like they may have disseminated it, or 3) they were so effing careless that it got unintentionally disseminated.
But if there was no harm, and no indication that they intended harm, they usually get probation, if they are even prosecuted.
Every case you have ever shown anyone here has been in one of those 3 categories. I really do not understand why you are so stubborn on this point.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/7/2023 @ 11:10 pmHillary would be in category 3.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/7/2023 @ 11:11 pmWith Trump, the case is clear-cut, IMO. He took and willfully retained materials relating to the national defense, and then he obstructed their return
I can’t speak to the obstruction charge, but Sandy Berger got 2 years probation for something a bit more egregious (he stole classified documents from the National Archive and destroyed them so that the 9/11 Commission could not see Bill Clinton’s orders regarding Osama bin Laden).
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/7/2023 @ 11:15 pmI think Hillary should have been prosecuted, and I don’t know why the Trump Administration failed to do so. The FBI doesn’t make charging decisions, that’s up to the US Attorney.
Rip Murdock (afd316) — 6/8/2023 @ 1:33 amSandy Berger and David Petraeus got lighter sentences because the law at the time allowed it. See post 71.
Rip Murdock (afd316) — 6/8/2023 @ 1:37 amI might say the same thing.
Rip Murdock (afd316) — 6/8/2023 @ 1:41 ammr. pence and mr. christie
i think that their wives just want them out of the house
or they want to get away from their wives
which is the same thing, really
nk (11773a) — 6/8/2023 @ 4:04 amChristie has the usual stink: where were you in 2018, 2019, 2020, and right after J6? Where was the “straight talk” when the party could have impeached and removed Trump…and moved on? This is opportunism. His only lane is NeverTrump. Now I’m happy someone is making that case. Is there anyone who was making the case before the 2020 election besides Romney and a coterie of people who literally stepped away from politics? So I’m not looking for Christie to take off, but talking about the 600lb turd in the room is the starting point. Maybe it drags DeSantis, Haley, and Scott into the firing range. Maybe. The voters must reward “straight talk”. I’m just not confident that they want that much of it.
AJ_Liberty (459e7c) — 6/8/2023 @ 6:27 amKevin M (2d6744) — 6/7/2023 @ 11:11 pm
\She may have shown some people classified information in her State Department office; she may have had some things sent to her home in DC by fax; ahe may have communicated things verbally, but her emails did not get out. None of them, or something would have been leaked. When she asked for all non-deleted emails to be made public, she didn;t realize that some of them would be considered classified, because her private email system was a substitute for the unclassified State Department email, not the classified one.
So it wasn’t supposed to be possible for anything classified to be there, theoretically. But some information is classified at birth or it could have been sent to her with a classification mark against her instructions (aomething like her schedule, on some days, for instance)
She never had a State Department state.gov emil address, although she may have sent a copy of email sent to the White House to a dummy state.gov email address.
Sammy Finkelman (b434ee) — 6/8/2023 @ 6:33 amJVW (65bed0) — 6/7/2023 @ 8:23 pm
Loretta Lynch and James Comey pretended it was Jaames Comey’s decision, but the only decision James Comey had to make was what rationalization to give for it, and he made it barely qualify for non-prosecution.
They also pretended that there was nothing unusual about the FBI making a prosecution.non-prosecution recommendation (Loretta Lynch had said previously that she would abide by it)\\\The purpose was to make the decision not to prosecute look non-political.)
And Hillary’s Clinton’s lawyers may have known at least the gist of what he wass going to say, because they were not enumerated among the persons who hadd no prior knowledge of waht he was about to say.
Sammy Finkelman (b434ee) — 6/8/2023 @ 6:46 amRip Murdock (afd316) — 6/8/2023 @ 1:33 am
Attorney General Jeff \\sessions had recused himself and to revive the case would have bee a blatantly political prosecution.
(The case against Mike Flynn was revived deliberately by Mike Flynn as part of the plea bargaining process.)
Sammy Finkelman (b434ee) — 6/8/2023 @ 6:49 am88. Rip Murdock (afd316) — 6/8/2023 @ 1:33 am
And they are political appointees.\
That’s actually who made the decision in the Hilllary Clinton email case, but Loretta Lynch and James Comey pretended otherwise for public relations purposes.
The prosecution.non-prosecution decisionn was completely out of James Comey’s hands, but this was kept very very quiet.
Sammy Finkelman (b434ee) — 6/8/2023 @ 6:53 am69.
How could that be illegal? He was president then.
Why do people try to raise the charges\/
There are two grand juries we now know, one in DC and a new one in Florida.
I think the reason he may be indicted in Florida is that it makes courtroom security less burdensome and easier.
Sammy Finkelman (b434ee) — 6/8/2023 @ 7:24 amThe praise (which was not about the way he ruled North Korea but about his willingness to come to an agreement and about how much he – Trump – liked him) might be flattery, but the congratulations on the WHO is bad because North Korea has lied about Covid.
Sammy Finkelman (b434ee) — 6/8/2023 @ 7:30 amIt depends on what crimes are charged:
Source
Rip Murdock (afd316) — 6/8/2023 @ 7:43 am“Weird clown” sounds about right.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/8/2023 @ 8:02 amThe two candidates I favor the most, Scott and Hutchinson, are polling at 1.6% and 0.4% on average, respectively, which is still lower combined than foreign policy idjit Ramaswamy and the weird clown.
@100, yeah, sign me up for Hutchinson. Every time I listen to him, I think, oh that’s what an adult sounds like. He’s just not performative during a time when the electorate wants politics to be entertaining. I like boring competence. Flashy generally means you won’t get anything done. Low drama means you understand the job and are comfortable in your skin.
AJ_Liberty (5f05c3) — 6/8/2023 @ 8:15 amI took his comment about Kim Jong-un and the WHO as pure sarcasm.
This is why:
BuDuh (921160) — 6/8/2023 @ 8:24 amRIP, Pat Robertson, 93
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/8/2023 @ 8:46 amNo RIP for Pat.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/8/2023 @ 8:48 amKarma, Rip.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/8/2023 @ 8:50 amPredictions….
How do you think the non-Trump Republican presidential primary candidates will react to Trump’s indictment? Here are my guesses:
Thoughts?
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/8/2023 @ 9:02 amWe all eventually die. I just don’t like religiously-based politics.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/8/2023 @ 9:03 amRip,
I think Scott is a B, not a C. And there will be at least one surprise — maybe DeSantis deciding to go for door D, if the charges are severe enough.
Appalled (fcb5b5) — 6/8/2023 @ 10:14 amOnly if Trump’s MAGA voters agree, which I doubt.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/8/2023 @ 10:24 am@108, agreed. Scott seems to be in the Haley mode. I don’t think anyone is D except maybe Gary Johnson. The contest for VP will go through A….so Kari Lake will be an unambiguous and proud A…and wear it proudly on her dress. I still doubt Haley/Scott are positioning for Trump’s VP. For starters, I can’t imagine Trump picking them. Of course, it could be a sneaky way to get to the POTUS seat (impeachment, death, incarceration, assassination)…it’s a gamble, but maybe it’s good to be #2!
AJ_Liberty (5f05c3) — 6/8/2023 @ 10:37 am106: I think your likes and dislikes are apparent here. I doubt anyone would pretend to be ignorant of the indictment — that’s fatal to any candidate. Why do you suggest that Scott would feign ignorance?
I also think that there is a different “C”
C. Suggests that Trump should consider whether his candidacy remains viable, which is where I put Haley and Scott.
It may also be that Christie makes criticism of Trump more acceptable, in “well, I won’t go as far as Christie or Cheney but…”
There is also an E: Demands that Trump be excluded from GOP primaries. I’d put Christie there.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/8/2023 @ 10:46 amit’s a gamble, but maybe it’s good to be #2!
Just don’t stand too close.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/8/2023 @ 10:48 amOnly DeSantis benefits from Trump staying in the race as it will narrow the field considerably. He wants Trump to go, but not now.
The rest of them, and especially the ones running to win (as opposed to those running to carry a message), need Trump gone ASAP. They just don’t want their fingerprints on the knife.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/8/2023 @ 11:04 amOf course my post reflects by opinions. Just as your posts reflect yours.
Tim Scott’s message is one of optimism and the future, not the past. I think he would rather avoid the question entirely, since he wants to remain on Trump’s good side.
How would Trump be excluded from running in the primaries. Candidates can demand all they want, but as long as Trump meets the legal qualifications to run in a state’s primary, he can. The voters will have the final decision.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/8/2023 @ 11:07 am@82
JVW… if I could like a post here, this would have all of mine. Particularly that last sentence.
I don’t know how they can move forward with an obstruction case against Trump, but Hillary nor her staff didn’t arise to that occasion.
Maybe we can be convinced that now, this is the new standard and we should forget about the past. From this point forward, former POTUS should face the letter of the law like everyone else and Trump is going to be the first under this new precedent.
But if so, how do you square Biden’s mishandling of documents pre-POTUS term? The issue isn’t just Biden, but his staff, as his staff had to have had access as well. Are we sure when want the same exacting principles when he’s out of office?
I asked, “are we sure” because I’m not convinced we thought of “and then what” going forward, and it’s impact politically. Meaning, is the public going to support government only going after Trump and not anyone else??
whembly (ea5e48) — 6/8/2023 @ 11:18 am@84
So, now we’re trusting Comey’s own word here?
No. HRC didn’t fully comply.
She and her lawyers dragged the process to almost stand-still.
What amazes me in this whole ordeal is that, while HRC got criticized for this, and rightly so, but her staff largely were left unscathed. HRC doesn’t do all of this by herself, as she was the boss.
whembly (ea5e48) — 6/8/2023 @ 11:25 amhe wants to remain on Trump’s good side.
Trump has no “good side.” He has a sycophant side and a terrible-person side.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/8/2023 @ 11:27 amMeaning, is the public going to support government only going after Trump and not anyone else??
Well, certainly that will be Trump’s refrain. But that whole “you let X skate, so I should too” argument just makes judges laugh.
Several people tried the Geithner tax-evasion defense, one with the exact same circumstances, only to go to jail.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/8/2023 @ 11:32 am@118
All this deliberation is a little moot until we know what are the exact charges.
Even if it’s obstruction, there are plenty of example of high connected people skating. And if Trump-critics supports the prosecution… don’t be surprised if these same voters demand a “persecution” on the other side.
THAT is the norm I’m worried about.
whembly (ce5f56) — 6/8/2023 @ 11:41 amPeggy Noonan goes apocalyptic:
She also likes Chris Christie.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/8/2023 @ 11:44 amI already said that I disagreed with his “extremely careless” schtick, whembly, but he was Director of the FBI, and a Republican, and his two public statements in the heat of a campaign season decidedly hurt Hillary and helped Trump.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 6/8/2023 @ 12:29 pmHillary always skirted up to the edge of slimy and illegal, and I’m sure she pulled the same kind of sh-t to stay on the good side of obstruction, but I don’t see a comparison to what Trump had been doing for well over a year.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/8/2023 @ 11:44 am
Not so. They may deeply entrench the Democratic Party but the only wsy to kill the Republican Party is for their presidential nominee to come in third or worse – and it might take two Presidential elections to do it.
My idea of running different candidates for president in different states (but one for vice president) wouldn’t kill the party but it might make the next selection more normal. (In 1912 Taft came in third)
https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/statistics/elections/1912
Democrat Woodrow Wilson and Thomas R. Marshall got 435 Electoral votes and 6,294,327 popular votes or 41.8%
Progressive Theodore Roosevelt / Hiram Johnson got 88 Electoral votes and 4,120,207 popular votes or27.4%
Republican William Howard Taft/ Nicholas Butler got 8 Electoral votes and 3,486,343 popular votes or 23.2%
Also Socialist Eugene V. Debs Emil Seidel got 0 Electoral votes and 900,370 popular votes or 6.0%
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 6/8/2023 @ 12:38 pm116. whembly (ea5e48) — 6/8/2023 @ 11:25 am
But she consented to an FBI interview (which she had kept postponing) after being satisfied that here was no RICO investigation going on (because Loretta Lynch had not completely avoided meeting Bill Clinton at the Phoenix airport, which she would have had an active investigation involving Bill Clinton been going on.
Of course Loretta Lynch would not schedule a meeting with Bill Clinton, And a totally involuntary meeting (on her part_ would have conveyed no information to Bill and Hillary Clinton.
What he set up conveyed information. (without there being any discussion of anything)
The whole thing was timed by the Clintons just right.
Had there been a RICO investigation Hillary Clinton would have declined an FBI interview – except it would have been too late to indict her before the election, owing to DOJ policy established by President Bill Clinton.
She preferred to be “cleared” but she preferred to have something hanging over her to an indictment.
What amazes me in this whole ordeal is that, while HRC got criticized for this, and rightly so, but her staff largely were left unscathed. HRC doesn’t do all of this by herself, as she was the boss
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 6/8/2023 @ 12:50 pm111. Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/8/2023 @ 10:46 am
Christie is more likely to be excluded from the debates, because he won’t commit to supporting the Republican nominee whoever it turns out too be
Of course Trump may decline, too and the RNC, which he more or less controls, may take everybody off the hook.
Asa Hutchinson says the condition should be that he won’t run himself as a third party candidate if he loses.
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 6/8/2023 @ 12:55 pm4. Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/7/2023 @ 10:42 am
Running for president doesn’t have to make sense.
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 6/8/2023 @ 1:04 pmJames Watt (85) has died.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/8/2023 @ 1:11 pmTrue that.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/8/2023 @ 1:12 pmThere were uncorroborated reports yesterday the Meadows had accepted a plea deal, which his attorney has denied.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/8/2023 @ 1:23 pmHe may have received an immunity deal.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/8/2023 @ 2:00 pmHe probably insisted on an immunity deal in order not to take the 5th amendment. This could be done without his feeling that he is actually guilty of anything criminal.
He may have testified both in regard to the events prior to and on January 6, 2021 and to the documents taken and held for a period by President Trump.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/06/us/politics/mark-meadows-testified-trump-grand-jury.html
I think he may earlier ae resisted on grounds of executive privilege.
There are now two grand juries – one in Washington D.C., which may have finished taking testimony and another in Miami, Florida, which may have had testimony read to it or summarized but has also heard witnesses.
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 6/8/2023 @ 2:12 pmRetention of documents may be a violation of the Presidential Records Act of 1978 but that carries no criminal penalties, but where Trump gets into trouble is lying and defying formal subpoenas.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/07/us/politics/trump-documents-florida-grand-jury.html
Trump’s in a little bit of denial.
I read something about moving of boxes.
The moving of boxes issue has to do with, at one point, pretending that all former White House documents had been kept more secretly until they were mostly moved into one storage room. I don’t think it is reasonable to hold his menial employees to a legal obligation to be transparent and truthful here.
Some people are probably violating criminal laws about leaking except that may only apply to what was learned through actual grand jury testimony.
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 6/8/2023 @ 2:26 pmRip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/8/2023 @ 9:02 am
If all it is obstruction of a subpoena, it’ll range between outrage and a complaint that this is overkill and shouldn’t be done. Asa Hutchinson will say he should withdraw. Maybe Christie but he is for Trump not running already.
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 6/8/2023 @ 2:31 pmNot so. They may deeply entrench the Democratic Party but the only wsy to kill the Republican Party is for their presidential nominee to come in third or worse
How about 25 Senators joining a new party?
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/8/2023 @ 4:08 pmWhich would really solidify Democratic control by splitting the opposition.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/8/2023 @ 4:17 pmMore from Noonan in her column today:
Don’t Count a Third Party Out in 2024
Now Perot had an advantage — he had no political home and so running as an independent did not burn bridges. For most current politicians to do that — witness Lieberman’s endorsement of Romney — would be political suicide. Yet getting on those state ballots without the kind of committed cadre of partisan fans that Perot had is damn near impossible.
We’ll see. Maybe, if it looks hopeless there are qualified politicians who don’t care. And after all, the GOP wanted the Bull Moose back almost immediately considering Taft came in third.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/8/2023 @ 4:19 pmWhich would really solidify Democratic control by splitting the opposition.
You live just for today or something? Because that’s how they became Trump’s servants.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/8/2023 @ 4:20 pmHutchinson ready said that in April.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/8/2023 @ 4:22 pmI just don’t foresee that happening. Seriously, under what circumstances do you see 25 Senators splitting from the Republican Party and joining (a non-existent) new party, one that doesn’t have an electoral base in their states? Or do you see them joining a currently existing party?
I guess I don’t have your imagination.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/8/2023 @ 4:26 pmFantasy political realignment camp.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/8/2023 @ 4:35 pmSeriously, under what circumstances do you see 25 Senators splitting from the Republican Party
When the GOP is widely seen as the Dogturd Party.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/8/2023 @ 4:54 pmJustice Department Charges Trump in Documents Case
The Justice Department took the legally and politically momentous step of lodging federal criminal charges against former President Donald J. Trump, multiple people familiar with the matter said on Thursday, following a lengthy investigation of his handling of classified documents that he took with him upon leaving office and then obstructing the government’s efforts to reclaim them.
……..
It was not immediately known what specific charges Mr. Trump is facing. One person briefed on the matter said there were seven counts.
Mr. Trump is expected to surrender himself to authorities in Miami on Tuesday, according to a person close to him and his own post on Truth Social.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/8/2023 @ 4:54 pm………….
So not anytime soon.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/8/2023 @ 4:58 pmTrump on Truth Social:
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/8/2023 @ 5:01 pmSeriously, under what circumstances do you see 25 Senators splitting from the Republican Party
When they cannot get reelected in their states running as Republicans.
Seriously.
nk (c84c3b) — 6/8/2023 @ 5:02 pmI agree, but that will be a long time in coming.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 6/8/2023 @ 5:06 pmI agree, but that will be a long time in coming.
Wait until Trump loses to Biden again, yet is leading the party still.
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/8/2023 @ 5:10 pmWhen they cannot get reelected in their states running as Republicans.
The same could be said for Democrats, btw. See Manchin, Sinema….
Kevin M (2d6744) — 6/8/2023 @ 5:11 pmKen White details the broad discretion Cannon has to impose her will on the Trump trial without being recused, much less disciplined.
lurker (cd7cd4) — 6/15/2023 @ 4:06 pmGaah! Wrong thread! I’ll move it. I’ll move it. Leave me alone.
lurker (cd7cd4) — 6/15/2023 @ 4:08 pm