Patterico's Pontifications

3/30/2023

Endless Fame and Glory! Patterico Substack Piece Gets a Mention on the Advisory Opinions Podcast

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 8:17 am



I thought I would mention that my latest Substack post, which takes issue with the views of the Trump indictment expressed by the hosts of the Advisory Opinions podcast, got a mention from . . . the hosts of the Advisory Opinions podcast. The podcast came out this morning, and the hosts had such a jam-packed show that they didn’t have time to get to the substance of my post on this go-around — but they suggested they might discuss the arguments in a future podcast. For those who don’t listen (although you should! — it’s a great podcast), I decided to transcribe the comments about my Substack post so you can see exactly what was said.

At 1:11:

ISGUR: Then, we had a wonderful listener do an entire Substack post discussing our podcast on the potential New York indictment. He pointed out some great ideas, possibilities, hypotheticals, flaws in our arguments, and if we’ve got time I want to run through those, and regardless I want to put it in the show notes. He is not a New York prosecutor, but he is a state prosecutor, and he raised some great points all around.

And at 51:42:

ISGUR: All right, we’re going to leave the long Substack post about our potential New York indictment pod for another pod, but I am going to put it in the show notes for those who are curious and really want to dive in and do their homework before the next pod.

FRENCH: It’s really good.

ISGUR: It was really well done, and thoughtful, and we just so appreciate someone taking the time to take our arguments so seriously, to then find the flaws in them, which I thought were well pointed out.

Aw, shucks, guys. Those are kinder words than I probably deserved. It’s an honor to even be mentioned on one of my favorite podcasts. It’s not clear to me whether they will take up the substance of my Substack post on the next podcast, or whether it might be deferred until Bragg actually brings this indictment . . . if he ever does. We now know the grand jury is taking a month-long hiatus, meaning Trump got everybody wound up about nothing, which he is very good at.

Many were complaining that the first indictment of a former president should be a strong case — not a crazy complaint! Well, with this hiatus, maybe that’s what is going to happen. I can’t imagine that the Georgia indictment is far off. Stay tuned!

UPDATE: Spoke too soon!

302 Responses to “Endless Fame and Glory! Patterico Substack Piece Gets a Mention on the Advisory Opinions Podcast”

  1. Yes, I think that Bragg will indict, but as a follow-on. First impressions are important and the first case should be something the layman voters can understand. At least half my criticism of Bragg’s case is that it is so complicated that even attorneys have trouble working through it and it will be too easy to spin.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  2. The tape of Trump trying to get GA officials to manufacture votes is hard to get around, leaving apologists to argue only that it was a steal to stop The Steal™.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  3. Any persecution prosecution of Trump, whether in New York, Georgia, or DC, will be considered to be politically motivated and will benefit Trump by riling up his base. There is no way to avoid it.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  4. #3

    There are going to be a lot of people you can’t satisfy. You can’t worry about them. New York’s Stormy case was just the wrong case to start with — and we have seen why over the past week.

    Appalled (03f53c)

  5. #4

    Although I agree with you, that’s not how we are doing things these days. Every interest group needs a special bone along the road their pursuit of happiness runs.

    steveg (f07edb)

  6. Trumps fans will never give up unless he gives up, and that will never happen. Look at all he has done that he admits to. If that didn’t work to discourage most Republicans, nothing will. A few court cases won’t change any minds.

    DRJ (0abb72)

  7. Congratulations to Patterico on the brief mention. I hope they dive in deeper to his argument.

    DRJ (0abb72)

  8. Kevin M (1ea396) — 3/30/2023 @ 9:03 am

    The tape of Trump trying to get GA officials to manufacture votes is hard to get around

    Trump did not try to get Georgia officials to manufacture.
    votes, although that is what they would have had to do to satisfy him.

    He never asked for anything that he didn’t claim he was entitled to. He claimed he has been deprived of votes, although most of his examples – and he switched quickly from one claim to another – were of extra votes Biden supposedly got.

    The “threat” was empty, since, at a minimum, it depended on Trump winning the election and the chances of that were very small, and even smaller without Georgia.

    He “warned” them that they could be breaking the law by not counting votes correctly.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  9. The Georgia case contains the most serious potential charge, but the facts don’t bear it out. Trump never broke character. And organizing – to the extent he was personally involved with that – false electors was merely a legal ploy that didn’t fool anyone.

    The most dangerous charge for Trump is defying a subpoena (for government documents he retained) by misrepresentation. That’s the thing I think he’s most likely guilty of. Holding national defense information- many officials have done that.

    If he secretly (not by his speech at the Ellipse, which didn’t have that effect) conspired to cause the storming of the Capitol, he would be guilty of a serious crime, but the evidence is all against that because he wanted to go to the Capitol himself – something that would not have been true if he expected a riot. He was not some Teddy Roosevelt leading Rough Riders in a charge, and besides he had a completely different plan to stall the vote count that day. Something studiously omitted by the Jan 6 committee in its hearings, except where it had to be alluded to.

    It involved objections by members of Congress, and the riot could not accomplish more than the same maximum 1-day delay. )and delaying things through noon of Jan 20 would only have made Nancy Pelosi Acting president. Trump knew he could get only a 1-day delay – that’s why he was desperate for Mike Pence to try to give him a 10-day delay in the certification (based on claims by Giuliani about what could happen in those ten days with the state legislatures)

    There has been no intimation of any further planning by the rioters beyond the storming of the Capitol (besides their fake calls to hand Mike Pence and kill Nancy Pelosi and others, which they clearly had no intention of even trying to do (because of risk to themselves – they didn’t even carry any guns into the Capitol)

    At most they hoped that Donald Trump would use the disturbance as an excuse to declare martial law – something that might have worked in Russia or that a Russian might think would be feasible – Mike Flynn was arguing for that before the riot. But Donald Trump was no fool.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  10. * fake calls to hang Mike Pence.

    The gallows erected on the Capitol grounds was not a serious attempt to hang Mike Pence. Nobody has been prosecuted for that.

    Trump wanted a rally at the Capitol because he thought those numbers (which he greatly exaggerated) could influence at least Republican members of Congress to reject Electoral votes.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  11. Sammy is a good example of the way you want Trump supporters to be arguing. You want them to be the ones coming up with the convoluted arguments on why what you saw isn’t what you saw. The argument for Georgia boils down to “He always talks like that so pay the simple boy no mind.”

    Appalled (03f53c)

  12. Trump did not try to get Georgia officials to manufacture.
    votes, although that is what they would have had to do to satisfy him.

    Do you ever read what you write?

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  13. A few court cases won’t change any minds.

    A J6 conviction will disqualify him for office and his name will not appear on the ballot. Good enough. Even if Idaho secedes.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  14. fake calls to hang Mike Pence.

    How were they fake? Didn’t they occur? While the gallows may or may not have been a serious attempt, it was a potent symbol.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  15. A J6 conviction will disqualify him for office and his name will not appear on the ballot. Good enough. Even if Idaho secedes.

    Kevin M (1ea396) — 3/30/2023 @ 11:52 am

    It would require a conviction for engaging in an insurrection or rebellion against the United States “or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof”, and no one to date has been charged under 18 U.S. Code § 2383 for the events of January 6th.

    As it has been said, any indictment of Trump will occur in 2024 and been seen as political revenge, much like a Hillary Clinton prosecution. And Trump would be stronger for it.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  16. Inciting an insurrection is sufficient. Do you doubt he did that?

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  17. And I think that there will be enough flipped Proud Boys to testify that he conspired in the sedition they have already been convicted of.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  18. Trumps fans will never give up unless he gives up, and that will never happen. Look at all he has done that he admits to. If that didn’t work to discourage most Republicans, nothing will. A few court cases won’t change any minds.

    Yep. And given the plethora of court cases he has fielded over four decades in NY, high profile divorces, shady casino, contractor and real estate dealings, not to mention two impeachments, they aren’t abandoning him. And given the Fox News poll released yesterday, the numbers in the GOP coalescing around him keep growing:

    https://www.foxnews.com/official-polls/fox-news-poll-trumps-lead-grows-in-gop-primary-race-now-over-50-support

    But the issue isn’t Trump alone; it’s populism– and he just happens to be the current standard bearer. It’s a concern for both major parties which allowed it to fester and root for decades. And as long as the current batch of nested, swampy Royalists, both Ds & Rs, battle to cling to power rather than address the hows and whys to quell it, it keeps growing – cycle after cycle- doesn’t appear to be dissipating any time soon.

    DCSCA (6302e6)

  19. Inciting an insurrection is sufficient. Do you doubt he did that?

    Kevin M (1ea396) — 3/30/2023 @ 12:16 pm

    An argument can be made either way whether his speech at The Ellipse was incitement or protected speech. If comes down to parsing language and questions of Trump’s state of mind, that’s a losing strategy. The legal standard for an incitement conviction is very high, as the Supreme Court held that “freedoms of speech and press do not permit a State to forbid advocacy of the use of force or of law violation except where such advocacy is directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action.” That is the question that must be answered.

    We’ll see what an indictment (if any) says. A better case rests on his machinations regarding fake electors, pressuring Pence, phone calls to Senators, etc. I wouldn’t count on the Proud Boys. Hope is not a strategy.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  20. Kevin M (1ea396) — 3/30/2023 @ 12:18 pm

    And I think that there will be enough flipped Proud Boys to testify that he conspired in the sedition they have already been convicted of.

    So far, none.

    And since Trump is unlikely to have talked personally with anyone from the Proud Boys, or the Oath Keepers, or the Three percenters, there would have to be intermediaries close to Trump involved, too.

    But Trump’s plan for the day, which was almost ruined by the riot, plus his strong desire to go the Capitol himself, puts the lie to the idea that he had any idea was coming — and what in fact had already started by the time he wanted to go into the limousine and travel to the Capitol. (where he probably wanted to address a rally and lobby members of Congress in person)

    Trump probably had indirect contact with people who organized the riot, but they tricked him.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  21. A J6 conviction will disqualify him for office and his name will not appear on the ballot. Good enough. Even if Idaho secedes.
    Kevin M (1ea396) — 3/30/2023 @ 11:52 am

    prosecutors deciding elections is soooo Russian

    JF (fe5230)

  22. fake calls to hang Mike Pence.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 3/30/2023 @ 11:58 am

    How were they fake? Didn’t they occur?

    Yes, they did. But they were just for effect. Fake. (although the Secret Service was right to worry about that

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  23. @16/@17. All this will do is create a ‘martyr’ and steel populist devotees w/resolve. Prosecuting and imprisoning Ghandhi didn’t end well for the Brits; and prosecuting imprisoning you-know-who back in 1923 didn’t work out to well for Germany, Europe– and the world:

    ‘Adolf Hitler is sentenced for his role in the Beer Hall Putsch of November 8, 1923. The attempted coup in Munich by right-wing members of the army and the Nazi Party was foiled by the government, and Hitler was charged with high treason. Despite his conviction, Hitler was out of jail before the end of the year, with his political position stronger than ever. The failed coup turned out to be quite a boon for Adolf Hitler. His trial brought him more attention and publicity than ever before. With a crowd of thousands-including press from around the world-watching the proceedings, Hitler made the most of this opportunity by going on the offensive.’ – https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/beer-hall-putsch-secures-hitlers-rise-to-power

    It can fuel a possible Biden re-up, too- if he decides to run or doesn’t pass in office. Don’t think he will run- hence the stalling to announce a decision; as the moment he does he either becomes an instant lame duck or just another swamp creatured candidate having to justify the trainwreck of his first term.

    DCSCA (6302e6)

  24. Impeachment and sentence by the Senate could have disqualified Trump for federal office.

    No criminal conviction can, although a state could disqualify anyone for any reason from being listed as someone electors were pledged to provided they did it before the election. I’m not sure they could force any Electors elected not to vote for said candidate.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  25. I wouldn’t count on the Proud Boys. Hope is not a strategy.

    I guess you haven’t been paying attention to those upset that there was no blanket pardon, and their claims that they were just doing what Trump told them to do.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  26. I don’t think any Trump supporters would argue what I do because it doesn’t say anything for Trump. It just tried to go no further than the facts. I don’t feel that Trump ever asked Raffensperger to fake election results. He was always claiming his claims were legitimate.

    He talked as if Raffensperger’s reluctance to do anything to help him because of Raffensperger’s fear of damaging his own reputation, and not because of loyalty to the truth.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  27. No criminal conviction can

    There are charges that attach such a disqualification. Even if that’s not constitutional, all blue and most purple states would deny him a ballot line. Some probably will in any event. The current version of the Electoral Count Act allows Congress to refuse to count electoral votes for things that, in their opinion, fall under the 14th Amendment qualification.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  28. And the NYT says he’s been indicted in NY.

    Appalled (bda17b)

  29. @28. Fox News is as well. More martyrism to suck up the media oxygen; Bragg has all but assured Trump will get the GOP nomination– and he’ll use it to run for NY governor.

    DCSCA (1437d6)

  30. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-truth-social-war-indictment-b2310323.html

    Donald Trump suggested that his supporters give their political opponents “a war” if the former president is indicted.

    A legal war.

    Mr Trump re-posted right-wing columnist Wayne Allyn Root on Truth Social that included a link to his column entitled “Democrats Want to Indict & Arrest President Trump. They Want a War? Let’s Give it to Them.”

    The article suggests that Republican district attorneys and attorneys general indict everyone from former House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, former president Barack Obama, Hunter Biden, Anthony Fauci, Bill Clinton, Hillary Clinton, former attorney general Eric Holder, Mark Zuckerberg, President Joe Bide, Vice President Kamala Harris and Homeland Security Secretary Alejandro Mayorkas.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  31. How were they fake? Didn’t they occur? While the gallows may or may not have been a serious attempt, it was a potent symbol.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 3/30/2023 @ 11:58 am

    BS. The gallows was minature and could not have fit a small child.

    It was symbolic just like the constant hanging in effigy that was done during George W Bush’s presidency.

    NJRob (1005fb)

  32. The grand jury met today but we were told they hearing other cases. They heard from their last witness, David Pecker on Monday. If they indicted Trump, that’s what they did on Wednesday.

    As a letter writer to the Wall Street Journal said, this is not like indicting a ham sandwich, but it’s a baloney sandwich.

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/two-questions-for-alvin-bragg-on-the-trump-indictment-new-york-grand-jury-459d00eb?mod=opinion_major_pos18

    Regarding Kimberley Strassel’s “Alvin Bragg’s Whirlwind” (Potomac Watch, March 24): The question is not whether a Manhattan grand jury will indict a ham sandwich, but rather a baloney sandwich.

    Peter Dodge

    St. Augustine, Fla.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  33. NJRob (1005fb) — 3/30/2023 @ 2:43 pm

    It was symbolic just like the constant hanging in effigy that was done during George W Bush’s presidency.

    There were some people calling to hang Mike Pence, but it just wasn’t real, although nobody knows what would have happened had Mike Pence confronted the crowd.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  34. DCSCA (1437d6) — 3/30/2023 @ 2:37 pm

    Bragg has all but assured Trump will get the GOP nomination–

    The way Trump is behaving, his gain will be absorbed by his loss.

    and he’ll use it to run for NY governor.

    I don’t think Bragg is interested. And the election is not until 2026. He’ll be lucky to be re-elected District Attorney. H’s doing this because of arguments people made to him. Two prosecutors resigned when he gave up the other case.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  35. Now look at this stupid thing: (apparently from last week)

    https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-bragg-trump-resigned/fact-check-march-2023-posts-saying-manhattan-da-has-resigned-and-dropped-trump-investigation-stem-from-edited-video-idUSL1N3601MO

    You can’t even make money in the stock market from this false rumor. What stock or future would be affected?

    The tweet appears to have been intended satirically, with the text reading, “BREAKING: DA Alvin Bragg’s precreated speech from next week dropping all charges on Donald J. Trump has been released,” and the audio and Bragg’s lip movements clearly not matching.

    The video appears to have its audio edited from remarks Bragg delivered at the New York University’s School of Law on Jan. 21, 2022 (starting at the 1:20 timestamp) (here), (here). The flags in the background and Bragg’s necktie match the clip shared online, but nowhere does Bragg mention Trump by name, share details about the probe or announce his resignation.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  36. That was a big shark!

    Colonel Haiku (a1a963)

  37. The Washington Post, the Wall Street Journal, CNN< Rolling Stone and NBC News say he's been indicted.

    And the Associated Press, citing Donald Trump's lawyer.

    https://apnews.com/article/trump-hush-money-new-york-indictment-election-027d0e5ac1881a4c55c6379deae75faa

    A lawyer for Donald Trump said Thursday he’s been told that the former president has been indicted in New York on charges involving payments made during the 2016 presidential campaign to silence claims of an extramarital sexual encounter….Joe Tacopina, a lawyer for Trump, told The Associated Press he had been told that a grand jury that had been meeting for months voted to indict Trump. The specific charges were not immediately made public.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  38. @Colonel Haiku

    What shark? The shark that was jumped?

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  39. So, preparations are being made for Trumps arrest, I presume. And just after everyone has assumed that Trump had been bluffing.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  40. So that’s why Putin arrested the WSJ reporter! To have somebody to trade for Trump.

    nk (5aaf45)

  41. I assume that the statute of limitations is no problem. It can be extended for another five years, and DRJ linked to a case. Although what that law really meant could be another question

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  42. There are charges that attach such a disqualification. Even if that’s not constitutional, all blue and most purple states would deny him a ballot line. Some probably will in any event. The current version of the Electoral Count Act allows Congress to refuse to count electoral votes for things that, in their opinion, fall under the 14th Amendment qualification.

    Kevin M (1ea396) — 3/30/2023 @ 1:11 pm

    Show me the man and I’ll show you the crime.

    Got it.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  43. Trump may want this case to go first (I mean the trial)

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  44. Show me the man and I’ll show you the crime.

    Unbelievable. Trump as Little Bo Peep.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  45. To have somebody to trade for Trump.

    Why? We’d send Robert Hanssen if they’d agreed to take Trump, too.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  46. In the boil the tip of the needle been inserted has.

    nk (5aaf45)

  47. The New York Times seems to be claiming he was indicted today:

    https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/03/30/nyregion/trump-indictment-news

    A Manhattan grand jury voted to indict Donald J. Trump on Thursday for his role in paying hush money to a porn star, according to five people with knowledge of the matter, a historic development that will shake up the 2024 presidential race and forever mark him as the nation’s first former president to face criminal charges.

    Shows you how much you can know what’s going on behind the closed doors of a grand jury.

    Today the grand jury was supposed to be hearing another case, and then meet again on Monday and Tuesday but with no Trump case witnesses. Thursday is the first day of Passover, and then they are off for two (?) weeks so till April 24 or was that wrong and it was only till April 17?

    In the coming days, prosecutors working for the district attorney, Alvin L. Bragg, will likely ask Mr. Trump to surrender and to face arraignment. The specific charges will be announced when he is arraigned.

    Oh, so the arrest doesn’t happen the next day after an indictment, as Trump indicated to us about two weeks ago? (the next possible date for an indictment was then Monday)

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  48. @47. Tee-dee-ess Yoda.

    (Obviously kidding about the tee-dee-ess. Obviously not about Yoda.)

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  49. Oh, so the arrest doesn’t happen the next day after an indictment, as Trump indicated to us about two weeks ago?

    Sammy, if Trump indicates that Monday happens after Sunday, check!

    nk (5aaf45)

  50. Trump may want his trial to be televised. They’d have to make an exception for that.

    https://ww2.nycourts.gov/rules/chiefadmin/131.shtml

    (a) Coverage of judicial proceedings shall be permitted only upon order of the presiding trial judge approving an oral or written application made by a representative of the news media for permission to conduct such coverage.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  51. “Come and get me, you dirty rats!”

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  52. Trump didn’t say it would happen the next day after an indictment, but that would have been the basis for his prediction he was going to be arrested the next Tuesday.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  53. Way to go Yew Nork Democrats! You cowardly, vindictive corksoakers, you.

    A long dead misdemeanor (at worst) massaged and crafted into a felony.

    Colonel Haiku (a1a963)

  54. And the NYT says he’s been indicted in NY.

    Appalled (bda17b) — 3/30/2023 @ 2:32 pm

    Gee. That’s too bad.

    norcal (7b2be1)

  55. In the boil the tip of the needle been inserted has.

    It will be amazing the amount of puss that will exude.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  56. When Trump is re-elected in a landslide … heads, pikes, walls.

    A prediction, not a wish.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  57. How were they fake? Didn’t they occur? While the gallows may or may not have been a serious attempt, it was a potent symbol.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 3/30/2023 @ 11:58 am

    BS. The gallows was minature and could not have fit a small child.

    NJRob (1005fb) — 3/30/2023 @ 2:43 pm

    That’s the funny thing about symbols. They need not be to scale.

    norcal (7b2be1)

  58. A prediction, not a wish.

    I’d say that’s an unlikely prediction, but if 2016 convinced me of anything, it’s that my own predictions of decency and sanity have the power to make the most unimaginably awful things happen.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  59. A question…..

    Are there any people who would happily describe themselves as “never trumpers” unsatisfied by this? Does anybody fear manipulation and having to deal with a “deviant Trump” sweeping the republican primary?
    Is this impossible?

    Joe (978bb7)

  60. When Trump is re-elected in a landslide … heads, pikes, walls.

    A prediction, not a wish.

    What would you expect to happen if he had not been indicted?

    nk (5aaf45)

  61. LOL @61
    Defiant Trump not Deviant Trump.

    Joe (978bb7)

  62. @62

    I was leaning towards Desantis. But I don’t see how he has a chance with this “political felony charge”- i admit, my words.
    It makes trump more popular because we see this as political rather than law.

    Joe (978bb7)

  63. The Democrats need to get serious, tell Biden and Harris to stand down, find the best possible pair for 2024, and do everything they can to make sure they’re nominated. The future of America depends on it.

    nk (5aaf45)

  64. The Isgur-French podcast should discuss your analysis now. In fact, they should invite you on to discuss it.

    DRJ (0abb72)

  65. Plainclothes NYC police have again been ordered all to report in uniform, like Tuesday a week ago.

    Sammy Finkelman (56c301)

  66. What would you expect to happen if he had not been indicted?

    Fewer.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  67. It makes trump more popular because we see this as political rather than law.

    who is “we,” Joe?

    DRJ (0abb72)

  68. Are there any people who would happily describe themselves as “never trumpers” unsatisfied by this?

    Yes. I consider it a mistake, because it will fail and allow Trump to play the martyr extra bigly. I want him jailed into a Supermax for seditious conspiracy and inciting an insurrection. This is petty.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  69. We will now see what effect this has on the GOP primaries. My guess is that Trump will be successful it framing it as a political charge and get people voting with their middle finger. I hope I’m wrong. It should be interesting to see how the other GOP candidates react; they cannot ignore it.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  70. The first rule of dealing with awful people is to not do what they want.

    I’m not sue the Left understands that.

    P.S. Can we keep from nominating awful people?

    Simon Jester (ff9c91)

  71. Kevin, I do think that many folks on the Left want DJT nominated, instead of the best situation: ignore him, and the lack of attention will make him fade away.

    There are too many people—on both sides—who seem to crave screaming and fighting.

    Simon Jester (ff9c91)

  72. who is “we,” Joe?

    Pretty sure it’s other cult members, but I doubt it will be that limited. The charges are so murky to the layman that Trump will be able to spin this as a crooked political hack job to anyone who might listen.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  73. Consider Mencken.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  74. the best situation: ignore him, and the lack of attention will make him fade away.

    The best situation now is apoplexy.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  75. It may motivate some to support Trump. It may turn off some, especially those already turned off. I don’t think we know what the undecideds will think, especially if there are other charges in other states/courts.

    DRJ (0abb72)

  76. I do think that many folks on the Left want DJT nominated, instead of the best situation

    Not such a good plan: He won the first time, he barely lost the second time. Are they so unsure of their candidates that they need to roll the dice again?

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  77. It may motivate some to support Trump. It may turn off some, especially those already turned off. I don’t think we know what the undecideds will think, especially if there are other charges in other states/courts.

    He may beat it. If he has any brains, he will demand a speedy trial.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  78. In the crepuscular* World of MAGA, a certain segment will remain oblivious to the fact that Trump is a hapless loser whom the Democrats can kick around as they please and all he can do about is is whine, snivel, and curse. But I think that segment has maxed out and is going to shrink not expand.

    *No, it does not mean that. The word you’re thinking of is feculent. Which also fits.

    nk (5aaf45)

  79. Here we go again.

    Simon Jester (ff9c91)

  80. How much experience does Trump have with criminal cases? His court experience has always been in civil cases, especially cases where he can use delay and intimidation. He is already using intimidation and there are ways for defendants to delay criminal cases, but this case will sit there for a year or more if he does that and the court let’s him.

    By then, there may be other cases. This one will fade in the background for most people. The case(s) with something happening will be in the media spotlight. My feeling is, after the initial glare of inductment(s), the drama will get old for undecided voters. It will all be a rehash of old Trump. Not things the current Trump wants to di for America.

    DRJ (0abb72)

  81. I am not looking forward to watching other folks dance about this in the comments section.

    Simon Jester (ff9c91)

  82. They’ve already been dancing or bemoaning it, but let’s wait and see. I don’t think anyone can really know what will happen with voters. It’s uncharted territory for modern times.

    DRJ (0abb72)

  83. I wonder if Trump’s intimidation tactics, like his “death & destruction” bleat or the one with him holding a baseball bat, are folded into the indictment. We’ll see.
    Right now, we don’t know what’s in the indictment, right?

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  84. Meanwhile, a mob took over the Tennessee legislature while it was in session, objecting to laws against child mutilation.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  85. Trumpworld reaction:

    ……..Probably means two things: 1. Trump will be the nominee, and 2. Another Dem President in 2024. Great job, everyone!……Resume enhancer for Trump……Banana meet republic. ……GOPe in many blue states will bar Trump as a Republican primary candidate. Lawsuit city. ……This will mark the crossing of our Rubicon……..Let”s hope Trump gets convicted so DeSantis has a chance to unify the country. ……It seems like Trump wants to be indicted. He likes the attention. …….Incoming: 20 point surge in President Trump’s approval rating. …….Their relentless pursuit of one man has impacted hundreds of millions of lives over the past three years or so. …….Between Cohen and Weisselberg, they have pretty extensive access to Trump’s finances and probably many other details of his campaign and organization, including Trump’s sons. Hard to say where it’s going until the indictments are unsealed. ……Trump will be the nominee. This farce does not change that and likely helps him for the primary…. warts and all (and he has them like we all do). …….Trump will with the nomination and lose the election. Again. In 2028, given he is still breathing, he will run as an Independent. He will have destroyed the American political order, and for that we should celebrate, dance and sing!……

    …….This is a declaration of war on America. ……I am worried about them breaking his bubble of protection and they will do everything possible to accomplish it. Remember Kennedy, Kennedy, King, Epstein, etc. …….Trust the plan. ……“I have gained such respect for this grand jury, & perhaps even the grand jury system as a whole,” Trump said. ……. It just sealed the GOP nomination for Trump. ……WHERE IS Q? ……. If it doesn’t matter that even the FCC would not pursue this against Trump because he broke no law…..They fired the first shot when they killed those innocent babies in Tennessee and now a patriot will end up being escorted in front of a jury or whatever have you and all we can do is pray? ……..We are approaching the inevitable reality of either war or total submission. …….NOW is the time for President Trump to pull out his little black book of secrets. ……As far as I’m concerned it’s a “Badge of Honor”. ……

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  86. Well, Ron DeSantis is on record:

    The weaponization of the legal system to advance a political agenda turns the rule of law on its head.

    It is un-American.

    The Soros-backed Manhattan District Attorney has consistently bent the law to downgrade felonies and to excuse criminal misconduct. Yet, now he is stretching the law to target a political opponent.

    Florida will not assist in an extradition request given the questionable circumstances at issue with this Soros-backed Manhattan prosecutor and his political agenda.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  87. Trump Grand Jury Digs Into Hush Money Paid to Second Woman

    Manhattan prosecutors investigating Donald Trump’s role in paying hush money to a porn star also have been examining a $150,000 payment to a former Playboy model who alleged that she had an affair with the former president, according to people familiar with the matter, raising the prospect that Mr. Trump could face charges connected to the silencing of both women.
    ………
    ……..Mr. Bragg’s prosecutors also have questioned grand-jury witnesses extensively about an earlier deal involving Karen McDougal, Playboy Magazine’s Playmate of the Year in 1998, who has said she began a 10-month relationship with Mr. Trump in 2006.

    The extent of prosecutors’ interest in Ms. McDougal hasn’t been previously reported. Prosecutors could use any McDougal evidence either to bring charges directly related to the McDougal payment or to establish an alleged pattern of conduct by Mr. Trump, the people said. Participants in the deals with both women allege that Mr. Trump played a central role.
    ……….
    The grand jury testimony of David Pecker, the former chief executive of American Media, has tied Mr. Trump directly to the payment to Ms. McDougal and to an alleged broader scheme to suppress negative stories about Mr. Trump during his 2016 presidential campaign, according to some of the people familiar with the matter.

    Mr. Pecker’s testimony could help prosecutors shore up the word of Michael Cohen, a former Trump lawyer who is expected to play a central role as a prosecution witness in any case against the former president. One grand jury witness who testified at the request of Mr. Trump’s team told jurors that Mr. Cohen has offered inconsistent reasons for paying Ms. Daniels.
    ………
    Federal law bars companies from contributing directly to political candidates. Mr. Cohen admitted in 2018 that by facilitating the McDougal payment he caused a corporation to make an illegal campaign donation. Federal prosecutors decided against charging American Media after its cooperation in the investigation of Mr. Cohen.
    ………

    Free link.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  88. OOPs. The TN thing was to demand gun control. I may have my calendar mixed up.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  89. Florida will not assist in an extradition request given the questionable circumstances at issue with this Soros-backed Manhattan prosecutor and his political agenda.

    We’ll see how long the federal courts allow that.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  90. It won’t matter as Trump will peaceably surrender.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  91. Nikki Haley on Twitter

    Haley calls this a political prosecution, and revenge, but goes on to call it a distraction from the issues.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  92. It won’t matter as Trump will peaceably surrender.

    Kevin M (1ea396) — 3/30/2023 @ 4:39 pm

    Sad!

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  93. Florida will not assist in an extradition request given the questionable circumstances at issue with this Soros-backed Manhattan prosecutor and his political agenda.

    Promises made, promises not kept.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  94. Speaker McCarthy:

    Alvin Bragg has irreparably damaged our country in an attempt to interfere in our Presidential election.

    As he routinely frees violent criminals to terrorize the public, he weaponized our sacred system of justice against President Donald Trump.

    The American people will not tolerate this injustice, and the House of Representatives will hold Alvin Bragg and his unprecedented abuse of power to account.

    Here we go again — an outrageous abuse of power by a radical DA who lets violent criminals walk as he pursues political vengeance against President Trump.

    I’m directing relevant committees to immediately investigate if federal funds are being used to subvert our democracy by interfering in elections with politically motivated prosecutions.

    Congress will enter the clusterfrack. What could go wrong?

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  95. Meatball (Maca)Ron(i) is the last person to talk about weaponization of the legal system to advance a political agenda.

    As for assisting in an extradition request, since Puerto Rico v. Branstad (1987), federal district courts have jurisdiction to enforce Article IV, Section 2, Clause 2, namely the Extradition Clause of the Constitution. No Florida Man required. The court will issue a UFAP warrant and the Secret Service will deliver Trump to Manhattan.

    nk (5aaf45)

  96. I wonder if Seth Rosenberg will be one of Trump’s criminal attorneys?

    DRJ (0abb72)

  97. If only it would go like this:

    https://youtu.be/a_z4IuxAqpE

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  98. I wonder if Seth Rosenberg will be one of Trump’s criminal attorneys?

    https://youtu.be/jvlEqAjg8aU?t=34

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  99. Trump could probably get a really fine lawyer, for maybe $10 million. Of course, he won’t pay that much so he’ll get a guy who doesn’t own a suit.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  100. Joe Tacopina is his lead attorney, according to CNN.

    Is this the same Sid Rosenberg? It appears Tacopina was a guest on his show about the pending civil case against Trump.

    DRJ (0abb72)

  101. No, sorry. Seth Rosenberg is not Sid Rosenberg. Duh.

    DRJ (0abb72)

  102. A great deal will depend on whether Merrick Garland and Fani Willis let themselves be shown up by Alvin Bragg but, like whatever, it’s the first leak in the dam dike if only a trickle.

    nk (5aaf45)

  103. Congratulations, we’re just like any other sh!thole country now.

    JF (e68188)

  104. Haley calls this a political prosecution, and revenge, but goes on to call it a distraction from the issues.

    Kevin M (1ea396) — 3/30/2023 @ 4:40 pm

    Way to stand out in a crowd!

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  105. *dam dike*

    nk (5aaf45)

  106. Headline about Trump’s attorney

    Before he represented Trump, defense attorney speculated Stormy Daniels saga was true and payment could be seen as an in-kind campaign contribution

    May be true. May not.

    DRJ (0abb72)

  107. Tancopina is describing this as a terrible injustice, so he will he be arguing reasonable doubt if there is a trial? Most defense counsel do.

    DRJ (0abb72)

  108. Tancopina went from calling Daniels payment an in kind contribution that wasn’t reported and could be big trouble for Trump, to calling it extortion. Kevin M, he’s got your argument.

    DRJ (0abb72)

  109. UPDATE: Spoke too soon!

    Patterico (8d8eb4)

  110. You mean “sh!thole” countries like France, South Korea, Taiwan, Italy and Israel that have prosecuted (and jailed) their former leaders?

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  111. Bad link. Did you mean this?

    Dana (1225fc)

  112. “The Democrats have forever changed our political system,” Richard Grenell, a former Trump ambassador, told Newsmax.

    He said Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis (R) and former United Nations ambassador Nikki Haley should withdraw from presidential contention to unify the party: “You’re naive to think this is just about Donald Trump. This is about every single Republican, anyone who challenges the power of the Democrats.”

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2023/03/30/trump-indictment-ny-stormy-daniels/#link-AYLXMX235RFCBBZ3OOVJLCO2FA

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  113. Kevin M, he’s got your argument.

    Even the devil can quote scripture.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  114. Spoke too soon and updated too soon. HTML error, I think fixed.

    Patterico (8d8eb4)

  115. Joe Tacopina may have conflict of interest as he claimed Stormy Daniels was a client in 2018.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  116. more than 30 counts related to business fraud

    Some of which won’t get past opening motions.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  117. DeSantia saying he will not cooperate with extradition. Of course.

    Patterico (8d8eb4)

  118. Kevin M, he’s got your argument.

    But really, this indictment had reasonable doubt written all over it. Maybe there’s something unexpected.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  119. DeSantis saying he will not cooperate with extradition. Of course.

    Noted above, but also that Trump is going to appear in NY voluntarily. He can’t hide in Florida and campaign.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  120. This complicates DeSantis’ announcement.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  121. He can’t hide in Florida and campaign.

    Why not? Biden hid in his basement for his campaign against Trump and won.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  122. Tancopina Is now saying that there is “a complete lack of basis” for any of this.

    Trump, never one to let a crisis go to waste, is already fundraising off the indictment announcement:

    “We are living through the darkest chapter of American history,” the email reads. “Ever since I ran for president as a complete political outsider, the corrupt ruling class has tried to shut down our America First movement.”

    “With your support, we will write the next great chapter of American history – and 2024 will forever go down as the year we saved our Republic. WE WILL MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN!” the email reads.

    Dana (1225fc)

  123. But Biden has the press on his side. Trump probably doesn’t.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  124. A far more important legal case was decided today.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  125. already fundraising off the indictment announcement

    Clinton fundraised off his impeachment.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  126. The grand jury testimony of David Pecker

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 3/30/2023 @ 4:34 pm

    Irony alert

    norcal (7b2be1)

  127. Irony alert

    norcal (7b2be1) — 3/30/2023 @ 5:33 pm

    I would hate to go through life with that last name, but it fits him.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  128. … and dead, ‘unindicted co-conspirator’ Dick Nixon smiled.

    DCSCA (47faee)

  129. You mean “sh!thole” countries like France, South Korea, Taiwan, Italy and Israel that have prosecuted (and jailed) their former leaders?
    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 3/30/2023 @ 5:14 pm

    no, sh!thole has a real meaning

    try countries that have prosecuted and jailed opposition party candidates, like Russia, Myanmar and Iran to name just a few

    if Trump were a former leader who served his two terms, absolutely no one would care about this case or novel legal shenanigans to keep the wheels on

    JF (e68188)

  130. He can’t hide in Florida and campaign.

    I’ll be interested in the conditions of his pre-trial release (bail), regarding both place of residence and travel.

    nk (5aaf45)

  131. I’ll be interested in the conditions of his pre-trial release (bail), regarding both place of residence and travel.

    nk (5aaf45) — 3/30/2023 @ 5:36 pm

    I’m sure it will be OR with no conditions, except may be surrendering his passport.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  132. Congratulations, we’re just like any other sh!thole country now.

    JF (e68188) — 3/30/2023 @ 5:02 pm

    You’re a bit late to the party. That description applied starting January 6, 2021.

    norcal (7b2be1)

  133. If Bragg were a mean, vicious, and vindictive person, he would ask for a dangerousness hearing with the photo of Trump wielding a baseball bat against him as Exhibit 1.

    (A dangerousness hearing means no pre-trial release.)

    nk (5aaf45)

  134. I don’t see how following through on this would mean that he was being vicious, and vindictive. After all, threatening a NY prosecutor *is* a crime.

    Dana (1225fc)

  135. I was being a little i-Ron-ic.

    nk (5aaf45)

  136. I was being a little i-Ron-ic.

    nk (5aaf45) — 3/30/2023 @ 5:56 pm

    Why don’t you stop being so funny, so that others have a prayer of catching up?

    norcal (7b2be1)

  137. Ah. Got it.

    Dana (1225fc)

  138. It’s so effortless, its hard to stop

    steveg (f162e8)

  139. #120

    I can’t imagine a more Presidential image than Trump cowering in Mar A Lago under the Florida Governor’s protection. It’s not a great look for the Donald, so I think he’ll present himself for trial.

    By the way, rumor is 30 plus counts — that would be more than Stormy.

    Appalled (32e8e5)

  140. By the way, rumor is 30 plus counts — that would be more than Stormy.

    Certainly more than Hunter…

    Dana (1225fc)

  141. How many here were upset with the indictment of the chicago 8 on trumped up charges or even worse trumped up charges so the police could kill fred hampton and mark clark. What goes around comes around! That was wrong and trumps indictment on a misdemeanor trumped up to a felony is just as wrong and is prosecutorial misconduct.

    asset (753128)

  142. But Biden has the press on his side. Trump probably doesn’t.

    Don’t kid yourself. If it generates heat, not light; if it generates sparks, draws eyeballs, clicks, ratings and revenue- as it did in 2016- it can. Only thing is, w/his Boeing 757, rally lover Donald isn’t a stay-put bunker man [bunko perhaps.] But politicizing the justice system at this level sucks the air out of the sails of the other campaigns for months and likely assures he’ll get the GOP nom. Darling Nikki and even undeclared DeSantis is left awash in the wake. The way to beat him was w/better candidates and at the ballot box. All this will do is feed populism and embolden it all the more.

    DCSCA (09ab05)

  143. Trump is reportedly planning to turn himself in on Tuesday. Does he like Tuesdays for arrests? It is the day before the day before Passover, by the way.

    This reportedly took Trump – and everyone else – by surprise.

    Sammy Finkelman (56c301)

  144. @ 136
    That’s the problem, i think we are just beginning to realize how long the game has been stacked against us.
    And I have a response to the “we” in moderation.

    Joe (978bb7)

  145. Trump issued a statement in which he criticized Bragg for not prosecuting the right things – and said he was doing Biden’s dirty work.

    Sammy Finkelman (56c301)

  146. Obama is in Australia – went at Trump. DeSantis said Florida would not help. Biden has yet to say anything.

    One note of caution. The indictment is still sealed. Nobody knows what legal theory Bragg might have.

    Sammy Finkelman (56c301)

  147. Shame on DeSantis and Haley for their mealy-mouthed statements. Somebody needs to call a spade a spade.

    norcal (7b2be1)

  148. *shrug* as far as I can tell, he pretty much got himself indicted deliberately. He doesn’t seem to have even tried to get a deal where he could apologize and pay his fine and go on his way like everyone else with campaign finance irregularities seems to do and he’s been baiting the prosecutor and ginning up controversy about it for months. If he did an illegal thing, he should pay for it even if he’s a former president. If he didn’t, he shouldn’t, even if he’s a dickhead. I don’t personally care much about these charges either way

    Nic (896fdf)

  149. DeSantis was once again making a self-interested political calculation and trying to show MAGAland that he’s a tough guy like Trump. And his ridiculous statement demonstrates that he considers himself above the Rule of Law. What a dolt.

    Dana (1225fc)

  150. Although, to be fair to DeSantis and Haley, they’re just humoring the primary voters. With any luck, there will be a change in voter attitudes. Good leaders help nudge that change, rather than follow it.

    norcal (7b2be1)

  151. However, politicians can only get ahead of the voters so far, beyond which it’s a suicide mission.

    norcal (7b2be1)

  152. Congratulations, we’re just like any other sh!thole country now.

    Well, the people elected a sh-thole person, so…

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  153. Maybe Putin can negotiate a prisoner swap, where he gets Trump in exchange for that American WSJ journalist.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  154. Yes. I consider it a mistake, because it will fail and allow Trump to play the martyr extra bigly. I want him jailed into a Supermax for seditious conspiracy and inciting an insurrection. This is petty.

    Kevin M (1ea396) — 3/30/2023 @ 4:02 pm

    What insurrection?

    The one that happened today in Nashville?

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  155. Sammy, Kevin and I touched on the Statute of Limitstions recently in another thread. It appears this New York case is on point. It involves tolling limitations when a defendant is not a resident of the State (as Trump has not been a resident of New York). In brief, it requires an analysis of whether a defendant is or is not continuously in the State.

    The New York limitations period is apparently 5 years after an offense, unless it is tolled, except for the most serious offenses.

    The discussion was whether Trump could claim a defense based on limitations. But it occurred to me that the prosecution may be moving forward now because of limitations issues. For all those who think this is a bad case to try now, the prosecutor may not have the ability to wait any longer.

    DRJ (0abb72)

  156. @62. ‘More than 6 in 10 Americans (62 percent) think the Manhattan District Attorney’s case involving former President Donald Trump is mainly motivated by politics, while 32 percent think the case is mainly motivated by the law.’ – https://poll.qu.edu/poll-release?releaseid=3870

    DCSCA (f88f5d)

  157. ^69.

    DCSCA (f88f5d)

  158. The local news angle is always interesting: “Queens Man Indicted”

    The charges come about a week after Trump called for protests outside of Bragg’s office and threatened “death and destruction” if charges were to be brought against him.

    Trump became the first man from Queens to be impeached in 2019. Two years later, he became the first man from Queens to be impeached twice.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  159. except may be surrendering his passport.

    Good God, why?

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  160. Sammy, Kevin and I touched on the Statute of Limitstions recently in another thread. It appears this New York case is on point.

    Yes, I read that. They decide that, since there is no actual definition of “continuous” they will define it as “piecewise total.”

    “When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  161. I guess the walls have finally closed in, right Haiku?

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  162. Yes, I recall your disdain for that case, Kevin.

    DRJ (f3fbf5)

  163. And for comments, too.

    DRJ (f3fbf5)

  164. Robert Costa

    Sources familiar with the investigation tell CBS tonight that Bragg has some documents that have been uncovered during the probe but are not yet known to the public/been reported, both financial records and communications between key figures… will use these as well as testimony.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  165. @164. I guess the walls have finally closed in, right Haiku?

    Don’t be surprised if by next weekend there will be autographed posters of ‘The Trump Mug Shot” available to hang on those walls sold for $500 each as campaign fund raisers. It’ll be on everything from coffee mugs to t-shirts– anything you can think of, to raise $.

    DCSCA (746e1c)

  166. I think you are enjoying mocking lawyers, Kevin, and don’t really care about limitations, tolling or continuous. But for those who do, this is the relevant part of the opinion:

    The People urge that the indictment was proper because the Statute of Limitations was tolled during all periods defendant was “continuously outside” the State. For an absence from the State to be “continuous” within the meaning of CPL 30.10(4)(a)(i), the People argue, it need not be a single uninterrupted period of time. We agree. The focus of the tolling provision of CPL 30.10 is “the difficulty of apprehending a defendant who is outside the State” (People v. Seda, 93 N.Y.2d 307, 312). Thus, all periods of a day or more that a nonresident defendant is out-of-State should be totaled and toll the Statute of Limitations.

    IMO the test is how difficult it is to apprehend someone who resides out of state but occasionally visits. While Trump’s location was known, it was impossible to apprehend Trump while he was President and protected by the Secret Service.

    DRJ (0abb72)

  167. Yes, I recall your disdain for that case, Kevin.

    I think that saying that this is the kind of thing that leaves laymen distrustful of courts and lawyers and reduces respect for the Rule of Law will offend you, and I’m sorry that is so.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  168. It is not necessary for a defendant to be “apprehended” in order to stop the limitations from running. He only needs to be indicted. That it takes some additional time to gain custody of the defendant doesn’t matter. In the case of the President, maybe you have to wait until his term completes, but no tolling is needed once you indict.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  169. The Washington Post editorial:

    The Trump indictment is a poor test case for prosecuting a former president

    Donald Trump deserves the legal scrutiny he’s getting — which has come from many corners on many counts. Yet of the long list of alleged violations, the likely charges on which a grand jury in New York state voted to indict him are perhaps the least compelling. There’s cause for concern, and caution, ahead.

    Thursday’s events are the result of Manhattan District Attorney Alvin Bragg’s decision early in his tenure to abandon a probe centered on the former president’s business practices in favor of what had come to be known as the “zombie” case: the matter of a $130,000 payment made to adult-film star Stormy Daniels in exchange for her silence about an affair she claims she had with Mr. Trump about a decade earlier. (Mr. Trump denies the affair.) Check-writer Michael Cohen, Mr. Trump’s longtime lawyer and fixer, pleaded guilty to crimes related to the payment in 2018. Though the precise charges are not yet known, it’s expected that prosecutors are now going after his boss for supposedly covering up his reimbursements for the favor. Falsifying records in this way is usually a misdemeanor in New York, but if it was done to cover up another crime, it can turn into a felony. The idea here is that the hush-money payment constituted an improper political donation because it benefited Mr. Trump so close to the election.

    Pyramiding two transgressions of state rules to go after a federal candidate is legally plausible. But the strategy is also novel, and courts may regard it with skepticism. What’s more, the potential campaign finance charge itself is shaky. When federal prosecutors charged former senator John Edwards (D-N.C.) with a similar crime following his 2008 presidential run, he rebutted the accusation by arguing he was trying to disguise his faithlessness from his wife rather than from the voting public. The trial ended in acquittal on one count and a hung jury on others — at which point the Justice Department dropped the charges.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  170. As they say, too good to check

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  171. This makes everybody involved look bad. This is the kind of slimy stuff that was done to my side for many years. It was wrong then for prosecutors to go after political opponents like eugene debs, anti-war protesters and the hollywood ten and it is wrong for prosecutors to do it now even when I don’t like trump.

    asset (753128)

  172. @Kevin.

    You, I, and now the Washington Post all agree that for anyone who opposes Donald Trump, this case is a political loser. Where you lose me is your apparent opinion that a politically flawed case is one that should never be brought. I care that it may help Trump’s political fortunes. Believe me I care. But I’m also a firm believer that it’s not OK to burn the village to save it, and the village in this example is the rule of law. The rule of law is what Trump endangers, and the rule of law is what we have to follow in keeping him at bay.

    So as perilous and disturbing as may be to do anything that gives Trump a political leg up, the only legitimate question is, what does the rule of law require? And the answer is that Trump be treated like anyone else would in his circumstances. Not above the law and not singled out by it. Which in turn raises the question, is this a case Bragg would bring against a random citizen not named Donald Trump? If so, he should bring it against Trump. If not, he shouldn’t. Obviously none of us have seen the indictment, so it’s too soon to speculate intelligently as to the answer (not that it will stop people on both sides from asserting with absolute certainty that “of course he would” and “you know he wouldn’t,” but that is the question.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  173. Hardly a day passes that I don’t lament the loss of the comment preview function.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  174. Obviously none of us have seen the indictment, so it’s too soon to speculate intelligently as to the answer (not that it will stop people on both sides from asserting with absolute certainty that “of course he would” and “you know he wouldn’t,” but that is the question.

    lurker (cd7cd4) — 3/31/2023 @ 12:13 am

    Alas, all too many people in this world are filled with absolute certainty, from politics to the law to religion.

    norcal (7b2be1)

  175. The purpose of tolling statutes is to avoid situations where people are indicted who are not able to be served with process. I understand the New York tolling case law bothers you. I am not defending or criticizing it, only trying to understand how it works.

    Tolling is a technical issue impacted by Constitutional/due process law. It varies in different states/jurisdictions. It would be great if every legal issue were simple for lawyers and laymen to understand, and I mean that. Society works better when laws are clear and understandable, but life doesn’t always work that way as we all know if we have medical, accounting, or engineering issues to deal with.

    DRJ (0abb72)

  176. I strongly agree with your comment 175, lurker. Thank you for writing it.

    DRJ (0abb72)

  177. Good for DeSantis, Haley and McCarthy.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  178. Hahahaha. No one above the rule of law.

    Clinton, Obama, Biden, their families and affiliates (FBI destroying Clinton phones while granting immunity), Epstein’s client list, stc.

    What a joke.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  179. We are assuming that the indictment is just about hush money to Stormy. The Stormy case can’t generate 30 plus counts in the indictment.

    So, I’m not commenting on whether this case is worth it until the indictments are released.

    Appalled (968b8a)

  180. “Fight’s commenced! Get to fightin’ or get away.”

    nk (bb1548)

  181. There is a saying that goes something like this:

    If you want to get rid of a bad law, enforce it!”

    Now hear me out. The rule of law is not a “bad law” to those who revere the law, but a bad law to those who do not wish to be ruled by it. But enforcing the law, selectively, creates the needed injustice of favoritism where “one side always gets away with it” so that the weak adherents to the law – sour on it, and may be driven to abandon it and to adopt the mindset of the anarchist. It is the joke to which NJRob points. That is the bad [practice of] law that must be enforced in order to get rid of the rule of law.

    Getting the “backs up” of Trumps supporters is not a bug, but a feature to those who need the chaos that might follow in order to make good use of yet another crisis – Constitutional or not.

    Yes, it is irony to enforce the law in such a way as to get people to stop trusting the rule of law, but half of the country’s trust on the voting process has been successfully destroyed in this way already.

    The tactic is clear: Destroy trust.

    There is a clearer, way to state this, but I have lost too much of my mind to bring the words to bear. I accept that my shelf life has expired. I await the hand of the great grocer in the sky to toss me out of the fridge.

    felipe (77b190)

  182. We got this orange Putin puppet going around for years, badmouthing our government, badmouthing our elections, badmouthing our institutions, badmouthing just about everything, even our strippers. Anybody got one quote of him saying something good about America?

    nk (bb1548)

  183. @ 185
    Prosecutorial discretion.

    Joe (978bb7)

  184. Getting the “backs up” of Trumps supporters is not a bug, but a feature to those who need the chaos that might follow in order to make good use of yet another crisis – Constitutional or not.

    Yes, it is irony to enforce the law in such a way as to get people to stop trusting the rule of law, but half of the country’s trust on the voting process has been successfully destroyed in this way already.

    The tactic is clear: Destroy trust.

    That’s Trump, felipe. All on Trump.

    Me, I don’t need chaos. I’m laughing at the Fifth Horseman who will ride to the FINAL BATTLE with bone spurs.

    nk (bb1548)

  185. Joe, your comment in moderation has put the comment numbering in your browser ahead by one. felipe’s comment @ 4:45 am is 184 not 185.

    nk (bb1548)

  186. @ nk (bb1548) — 3/31/2023 @ 5:10 am

    Thank you for the heads up about that.
    Sorry for confusion and or any disruption.

    Hope everyone’s day is excellent.

    Joe (978bb7)

  187. 161. Re: “Queens Man Indicted”

    It’s really former Queens man. Donald Trump hasn’t lived in Queens since he built and moved into Trump Tower in 1983. Address: 721 Fifth Avenue,”

    He declared himself a resident of Palm Beach County, Florida, in September, 2020.

    New York State may still have tried to consider him a resident:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/01/nyregion/trump-florida-move-taxes.html

    Tax experts say that convincing auditors that a taxpayer has gone from being a New Yorker to being a Floridian involves more than filing a “declaration of domicile” form, as Mr. Trump and Melania Trump, the first lady, did in Palm Beach County Circuit Court in September.

    Florida is one of the few states with no state or local income taxes and has long been a preferred destination for wealthy New Yorkers looking to lower their tax bills. But Mark S. Klein, the chairman of the law firm Hodgson Russ, said New York “made it very clear at least a dozen years ago that filling out pieces of paper does not change your domicile.”

    If New York Sate can have it both ways – then maybe Donald Trump can have the value oof his properties both ways – in case he’s been indicted for that, too. But oprobably its distinguiahable.

    Andrew Cuomo also used to live in Queens.

    Sammy Finkelman (b434ee)

  188. You’re welcome, Joe.

    nk (bb1548)

  189. Correction: He declared himself a resident of Palm Beach County, Florida, in September, 2019.

    Sammy Finkelman (b434ee)

  190. 185. nk (bb1548) — 3/31/2023 @ 4:47 am

    Anybody got one quote of him saying something good about America?

    Maybe this:

    https://trumpwhitehouse.archives.gov/briefings-statements/remarks-president-trump-farewell-address-nation/

    I go from this majestic place with a loyal and joyful heart, an optimistic spirit, and a supreme confidence that for our country and for our children, the best is yet to come.

    Sammy Finkelman (b434ee)

  191. Appalled (968b8a) — 3/31/2023 @ 4:17 am

    We are assuming that the indictment is just about hush money to Stormy. The Stormy case can’t generate 30 plus counts in the indictment.

    And District Attorney Alvin Bragg hinted in his letter to the Congressional Committee that it could be about other things.

    But recent witnesses Michael Cohen, David Pecker, Strmy Daniels, andd Robert Costello have presumably been about the $130,00 – well Davvvid Pecker is about all the other women.

    I can’t see 30 counts associated with Stormy Daniels but I can see 15 – because 12 separate payments were ade – no 13 – were paid. Now in some cases money may have been distributed to Donald Trump by his corporation and then Trump wrote out a check.

    Trump’s lawyers will characterize all that as consensual overbilling.

    So, I’m not commenting on whether this case is worth it until the indictments are released.

    Only reasonable thing t do.

    Sammy Finkelman (b434ee)

  192. Thank you, Sammy. That whole speech is astonishingly gracious. I had not seen it before.

    nk (bb1548)

  193. nk (bb1548) — 3/31/2023 @ 5:06 am

    This has to be my favorite nevertrump slogan. And it’s not like it isn’t tried and true. The old “what I’m doing is your fault” fan favorite.

    We were forced to torch the village to save it from communists. We wouldn’t need to unleash the dogs and fire hoses on these protesters if they weren’t here. Stalin wouldn’t have needed to steal all of the food from the farmers if they’d just given it to him.

    For nevertrump it’s always been some version of by any means necessary because we’ve got to defend The Norms ™.

    The newest one is trans people killing little kids because of oppression.

    I’m impressed, but not surprised, by the power of transference and projection.

    frosty (9aab17)

  194. lurker (cd7cd4) — 3/31/2023 @ 12:13 am

    Which in turn raises the question, is this a case Bragg would bring against a random citizen not named Donald Trump?

    Not the business (weisselberg) case, if that’s what he brought, because other real estate developers used two evaluations — but perhaps Trump went further, and he made a few patently wrong claims to anks.\\The business records case is tied in withh campaign finance violations and it’s only being brought because Michael Cohen had stated that in an attempt to reduce his sentence. And it’s a unique case. A unique set if facts – which are also in dispute, and posit something highly unlikely – that Trump would expect Michael Cohen to lay out an enormous sum of money (for MC)

    It’s also highly improbable that MC would do this on his own.

    Obviously, some essential fact is missing.

    Maybe MC had lied to DT about how little it would take to quiet Stormy Daniels and he felt trapped by his lies.

    Maybe…

    MC negotiated an agreement for $130,000 and Trump wouldn’t pay the $130,000 when MC told him the figure.. And MC keeps pushing her off, and then Stephanie Clifford aka Stormy Daniels was starting to market her story again AND THEN MC SIGNS A SECOND AGREEMENT with Stormy Daniels.

    And then Michael Cohen makes a last ditch effort to persuade Donald Trump, and when he failed, he went ahead with it on his own to try to salvage his relationship with DT.

    Then he asks David Pecker to speak up for him to Donald Trump that he should reimburse the money. And he begins asking himself two months later.

    And eventually, Trump agrees.

    Of course you could say maybe Trump did agree in advance to reimburse Michael Cohen (3×4 times to leave him with no tax consequences!) but tried to get out of it.

    \But why didn’t MC tape any agreement he had with DT for him to be reimbursed?

    Sammy Finkelman (b434ee)

  195. We were forced to torch the village to save it from communists. We wouldn’t need to unleash the dogs and fire hoses on these protesters if they weren’t here. Stalin wouldn’t have needed to steal all of the food from the farmers if they’d just given it to him.

    You left out Trump had to shtup Stormy Daniels and Karen McDougal and concoct an elaborate money-laundering scheme to pay them off.

    nk (bb1548)

  196. Anyone else remember when nevertrump was caterwauling on about how DT said he could shoot someone in public and he’d still get votes? And also the caterwauling about him being right because his voters were deluded cultists?

    Anyone else notice that now the caterwauling is about how something with a porn star would have lost him votes and he had to concoct an elaborate scheme to cover it up?

    Now, the obvious question is does nevertrump actually believe these two contradictory concepts?

    frosty (d09065)

  197. Ten years later. \

    It wss Michael Cohen who wanted an elaborate money laundering scheme to reimburse the National Enquirer. Donald Trump just wanted to write them a check. Now it was a problem for the National Enquirer since they never had had any intention of hiring Karen McDougal as a columnist and all the other things they promised her.\
    Michael Cohen tapes a conversation with Donald Trump in which MCC said not to write a check Donald Trump ws willing to buy the entire file of stories about Donald Trump that the National Enquirer had captured and put in a vault on the grounds that Daid Pecker might hypothetically be hit by a truck and the Enquirer change its policy.

    \This would be after the election of course.

    The Enquirer was never paid off probably because its lawyers determined that that wouldn’t save them from breaking the law.

    Sammy Finkelman (b434ee)

  198. frosty (d09065) — 3/31/2023 @ 7:22 am

    two contradictory concepts?

    The contradictory concepts are about what Trump believed, not even about political reality. \

    But this can be resolved by saying that Trump didn’t believe anything (including shooting someone on 5th Avenue) could cost him votes in the Republican primary, but even something trivial could cost him votes in the general election.

    But I think Trump did not believe that disclosure of his connection ip with two women could cost him votes (not with his record, and also because it was ten years in the past)

    Trump has also said he didn’t believe that postponing the Covid vaccine cost him (the election) “October Surprise” accusation for real.

    He didn’t want to use it.

    Of course, it helps that so many of his supporters are anti-vaxxers. Hus “cultists” boo him when he talks about getting the vaccine.

    Sammy Finkelman (b434ee)

  199. But this can be resolved by saying that Trump didn’t believe anything (including shooting someone on 5th Avenue) could cost him votes in the Republican primary, but even something trivial could cost him votes in the general election.

    Well said, Sammy.

    DRJ (0abb72)

  200. Who’s caterwauling? Trump thought Alvin Bragg was another boogeyman he could imagine up and imagine away, meanwhile raking it in from his followers who took him seriously, but Bragg turned out to be real. He called Trump’s bluff and made him ante up.

    nk (bb1548)

  201. So…why don’t we simply support candidates who aren’t pond scum? Instead of deciding that The Other Guys are so awful we will support pond scum…

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  202. And I fully appreciate what I wrote is an insult to pond scum.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  203. Simon,

    I think a lot of Republicans strongly believed we needed to dramatically change the narrative in America based on the changes Democrats had made, and Trump did that with immigration, abortion, etc. I also think today’s Republicans are correct that the prior leaders would not have changed things the way Trump has. They accept the good and the bad with Trump because he did things no one else would do.

    I think we need to acknowledge that because I think it is why he has supporters. It is also why DeSantis is willing to take on groups like Disney in a way that prior GOP leaders never would.

    DRJ (0abb72)

  204. For nevertrump it’s always been some version of by any means necessary because we’ve got to defend The Norms ™.
    The newest one is trans people killing little kids because of oppression.

    I don’t know why you’re ascribing that to NeverTrump, frosty. That thought never entered NeverTrump Montagu’s mind. I also object to your “by any means necessary” smear; there may be some unprincipled NeverTrumpers who have that mentality, but it’s an invidious overgeneralization.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  205. I respect many people who support Trump because they want things they think will make America better, but not everyone is so well-meaning (on either side of the GOP divide). Frankly, frosty, I don’t think you deserve respect because you are so callous to people who disagree with you.

    DRJ (0abb72)

  206. I have to agree with the interpretation of DRJ (0abb72) — 3/31/2023 @ 8:31 am
    If a JEB! took the same approach, trump wound never have made it.

    Joe (978bb7)

  207. DRJ (0abb72) — 3/31/2023 @ 8:42 am

    Frankly, frosty, I don’t think you deserve respect because you are so callous to people who disagree with you.

    This is basically my point in frosty (9aab17) — 3/31/2023 @ 6:31 am.

    How am I callous?

    frosty (d09065)

  208. Regarding selective enforcement, it’s only selective in that a former President has never been indicted before. Otherwise……

    Survey of Past New York Felony Prosecutions for Falsifying Business Records

    A core crime that the Manhattan District Attorney will likely include in an indictment of former President Donald Trump is “falsifying business records in the first degree,” a felony under New York State law (N.Y. Penal Code § 175.10). Prosecutors and indeed all of us are compelled by the rule of law to consider how such a charge compares to past prosecutions. Are like cases being treated alike?

    Here it appears they are. Prosecution of falsifying business records in the first degree is commonplace and has been used by New York district attorneys’ offices to hold to account a breadth of criminal behavior from the more petty and simple to the more serious and highly organized. We reach this conclusion after surveying the past decade and a half of criminal cases across all the New York district attorneys’ offices.

    The Table below provides full details of many examples of cases we identified in the survey. A sample of representative precedents includes:
    ……….
    For Trump to be prosecuted for felony violation of falsifying business records, the statute requires the DA to prove not only that Trump is guilty of falsifying business records (a misdemeanor), but that he did so with the intent to commit “another crime,” or aiding or concealing the commission of “another crime.”
    ………..

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  209. Survey of Past Criminal Prosecutions for Covert Payments to Benefit a Political Campaign

    The indictment of former President Donald Trump for conduct involving the alleged concealment of hush money payments to benefit a presidential campaign raises the question whether his case is being treated like other cases. That question is fundamental to ensuring the equal application of the law and protecting free and fair elections. In this essay and accompanying table of cases (the “Table”), we analyze 17 analogous campaign finance and related prosecutions in the State of New York and nationally. Our research shows that third-party payments covertly made to benefit a candidate are routinely and successfully prosecuted as campaign finance violations in New York and elsewhere under a variety of state and federal statutes.
    ………..
    In the Table below, we looked at a total of 15 additional cases beyond Brega and Norman, all of which concern covert benefit to a campaign, either by a third-party providing cash or in-kind support, or services, or through covertly funneling other contributions. The Table is not a comprehensive survey of all past cases, but provides strong insight into these types of cases.
    ………..

    My emphasis. Contrary to some opinions here, coordination with a candidate or campaign is not required to commit campaign finance violations.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  210. Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 3/31/2023 @ 8:37 am

    I don’t know why you’re ascribing that to NeverTrump, frosty.

    Because I’ve been paying attention. This isn’t new. And I don’t ascribe it to just nevertrump. The funny part is that if the last 6-7 years doesn’t have enough evidence it’s right there in the name.

    I also object to your “by any means necessary” smear; there may be some unprincipled NeverTrumpers who have that mentality, but it’s an invidious overgeneralization.

    Yes, as long as there’s some other group of unprincipled nevertrumpers that can be cited the honest and sincere ones who’ve bought into and played along with every single over-hyped and over-played invidious over generalization since DT walked down the elevator are off the hook. The funny part about that is that I was willing to agree to that when I thought nevertrumpers were willing to actually extend that same courtesy to people who disagreed with them. But this is a mirage. The list of things nevertrump thinks it’s impossible for honest and sincere people to be on the other side of isn’t short. That might even be another way to view the defining characteristics of being nevertrump.

    frosty (d09065)

  211. Which in turn raises the question, is this a case Bragg would bring against a random citizen not named Donald Trump? If so, he should bring it against Trump.

    I would be interested to know how many politicians the NYC DA has indicted over the past decade. I know the Feds have been busy, but NYC?

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  212. We are assuming that the indictment is just about hush money to Stormy. The Stormy case can’t generate 30 plus counts in the indictment.

    So, I’m not commenting on whether this case is worth it until the indictments are released.

    This is an excellent point. We only know (or expect) the kind of thing that we’ve been talking about for the last week. Maybe there’s something more concrete, like bribing a judge. Or maybe it’s 25 minor counts piled onto 5 more solid charges. I doubt it is 30 felonies.

    But we’ll see.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  213. There is only one side to the peaceful transfer of power.

    As for “by any means necessary”, you don’t need a cannon to squash a bug. We can rid ourselves of the loathsome orange tick without comprising our principles, violating our laws, or subverting our institutions.

    nk (bb1548)

  214. Good for DeSantis, Haley and McCarthy.

    Haley mainly attacked it as a distraction, continuing her fence-straddling. The other two were far stronger in their denunciation.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  215. You address views/people you disagree with using hostile, derogatory, or unkind descriptions that paint a very negative picture of those views/people, frosty. It isn’t necessary to the argument but apparently it is something you need to di.

    DRJ (0abb72)

  216. I suspect it is claims brought against Weissellberg and the Trump Organization. They have been talking to Weisselberg enough that he changed attorneys (and Trump is still paying for it) , so the prior attorney may have been telling Weisselberg to turn on Trump but he wouldn’t.

    This is why Trump is do mad at the judge assigned here, but he was assigned because he already knows the facts.

    DRJ (0abb72)

  217. So…why don’t we simply support candidates who aren’t pond scum? Instead of deciding that The Other Guys are so awful we will support pond scum…

    Scum rises to the top? But we usually don’t. Even the worst person the GOP ran in the last 50 years (Dole) wasn’t pond scum.

    This time, I’m supporting Nikki Haley who has faults, sure, but is not pond scum. DeSantis might not be either, but it’s less easy to tell.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  218. * worst person the GOP ran

    Not counting you-know-who

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  219. I think we need to acknowledge that because I think it is why he has supporters.

    It is sad that the rest of the GOP could not respond to the situation in 2016 or earlier. That it took this intemperate man to force the change should be embarrassing.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  220. Disney Outmaneuvers DeSantis in Clash Over Theme Park District

    Walt Disney Co. pushed through changes limiting the powers of the municipal authority that governs its Florida theme parks ahead of a controversial takeover by representatives of Governor Ron DeSantis.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-03-30/disney-outmaneuvers-desantis-in-clash-over-theme-park-district

    DCSCA (0a7df3)

  221. Weisselberg is facing new charges based on alleged insurance fraud that doesn’t sound like it involved Trump.

    He pled guilty to all the original charges:

    WEISSELBERG pleaded guilty to one count of Grand Larceny in the Second Degree; three counts of Criminal Tax Fraud in the Third Degree; one count of Scheme to Defraud in the First Degree; one count of Conspiracy in the Fourth Degree; one count of Criminal Tax Fraud in the Fourth Degree; four counts of Offering a False Instrument for Filing in the First Degree; and four counts of Falsifying Business Records in the First Degree.

    We may see most or all of those charges filed against Trump.

    DRJ (0abb72)

  222. @218:

    DRJ, I hope you understand that when *I* strongly disagree with you or others, it does not mean I don’t respect you or your argument, just that I really don’t agree with it and need to explain my disagreement as sharply as possible.

    Sometimes (and this is possibly true of Frosty or others) we forget how limited the interaction here is. There is no body language or facial expressions that would make the same words, f2f, mean rather different things. Not all of us are adept (or always adept) at textual nuances that would convey things normally conveyed by other means.

    Of course sometimes an attack is just an attack.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  223. Cruz did it, Kevin, but he was so fake about it. Trump has a unique ability to change positions on things — something 180 degrees — and still make people believe him. That is hard to do, as we see by all the politicians who can’t do it.

    DRJ (0abb72)

  224. @222. But who is “we”??

    ‘For Republicans, it’s a different story — three-quarters do want Trump to be president again. So Trump remains very popular with the base, but politically toxic with everyone else.’ – source, https://www.npr.org/2023/03/27/1166173049/donald-trump-investigations-republican-voters-2024-presidential-election

    DCSCA (0a7df3)

  225. DRJ #206: I have many relatives in the camp to which you refer. Myself, I have held my nose and voted many times.

    What disturbs me so is that if DJT had even a femtogram of self control, he could have really done some good things. Instead, every good thing his administration has done is tainted by his bullying and childish nature.

    As with WJC, I will never understand that kind of thing. Such personalities have a hole in their soul that can never be filled.

    Always nice to see your posts, DRJ.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  226. Weisselberg is facing new charges based on alleged insurance fraud that doesn’t sound like it involved Trump.

    Unsurprising. Once the subpoenas flow, there is no telling what turns up. The most serious charges against Cohen had nothing to do with Trump.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  227. Highlighting two, both are true, features revolving around the indictment.

    Trump did this, but people also expect men, women to lie about, and to cover up, everything surrounding their sexual affairs. It is called cheating for a reason, and the cheat is not limited to the person to person contact, it extends to finances. The old unfunny Sothern CA joke is when an affair is uncovered the woman gets plastic surgery while the man hides all the money

    Bragg is politically ambitious and this is something that he will use polish his resume with the deeply partisan Democrat base in NY, and Bragg is deep into getting himself a lifelong spot at the Democrat feeding trough

    steveg (de371d)

  228. Simon,

    I seldom disagree with you, but Trump’s destruction of the US-China detente has gained widespread support, as has the related effort to rebuild US manufacturing capacity. Go back and listen to Biden’s most recent SotU, and you will hear Donald Trump’s platform more often than not.

    Or maybe it’s Dick Gephart’s. Hard to tell.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  229. Thank you, Kevin, but frosty and buduh are the only ones that strike me that way. You certainly don’t. There are plenty of people here who really care about politics but those are the ones who go out of their way to make every criticism sting.

    DRJ (0abb72)

  230. Good for DeSantis, Haley and McCarthy.

    DeSantis is either posturing (more likely) or advocating violating the Constitution; see Puerto Rico v. Branstad (1987).

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  231. Cruz did it, Kevin, but he was so fake about it

    After Trump made the stink. And yes, it was fake (and me, too!).

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  232. DeSantis is either posturing

    A politician posturing!

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  233. Here is the 25 page original indictment against Weisselberg. He admitted to all counts of the indictment.

    DRJ (0abb72)

  234. By the way, all counts were felonies according to the last link.

    DRJ (0abb72)

  235. Given Trump’s tweets, TS posts, and other public statements vilifying and threatening the courts, prosecutors (in NY, Georgia, and DC), plaintiffs suing him in civil court (Jean Carroll), etc. what are the odds that a) the judge in this case will impose a gag order on all parties, and b) a gag order won’t stop Trump from raging?

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  236. @213. There is a core of ‘nevertrumpers’ who just don’t like the guy, his morals, methods or his attitudes but the broader spectrum are more the elitist ideologues– neocons and such– whose influence has waned or been outright rejected; ‘brushed out of the tail that no longer wags the dog’ by the relentless rise of populism that increasingly controls the GOP. And Trump just happens to be the current standard bearer. Neocon ideologue Bill Kristol is a prime example:

    Prominent Never-Trumper Says GOP Voters Should ‘Be Democrats For A While,’ Backs Gretchen Whitmer For President

    “We need to defeat the Trump Republicans. And if that means being with the Democrats for a while, that’s fine,” Kristol said.

    https://dailycaller.com/2023/03/07/never-trumper-bill-kristol-gop-voters-should-be-democrats-for-a-while-backs-gretchen-whitmer-for-president/

    DCSCA (0a7df3)

  237. He might. Texas judges bend over backwards for defendants to reduce their appeal issues if they are convicted. But there are places where judges don’t seem to do that, and Msnhattan may be one.

    DRJ (0abb72)

  238. The Trump Organization and Trump Payroll Co were also guilty in charges similar to Weisselberg’s. So if the DA is charging Trump with counts related to the companies’, Cohen’s and Weisselberg’s offenses, then the Trump charges may not be anything new. Plus it moves this full circle. All the players but Trump have been convicted.

    DRJ (0abb72)

  239. The question will be, in part, did Trump let his companies, employees, and lawyer defraud him and the taxing authorities for 15 years, or did he direct it?

    DRJ (0abb72)

  240. What you think you know about Trump’s hush-money indictment may be wrong
    ………
    The most common legal explainer for the hush money case holds that Manhattan District Attorney Alvin Bragg is launching a hybrid prosecution, which uses New York state law on falsifying business records as a misdemeanor springboard to pursue a federal campaign finance felony.
    ……..
    (Diana Florence, who spent decades in the Manhattan DA’s office before her unsuccessful run for Bragg’s position) believes that these attorneys and commentators could be barking up the wrong tree because Manhattan prosecutors could have a ready alternative with a law already in Empire State’s books: tax fraud.
    ……..
    Trump’s ex-fixer Michael Cohen engineered a complicated system for funneling $130,000 to pornographic film actress Stormy Daniels to silence her alleged affair with Trump. Cohen did so by taking out a home equity line of credit (HELOC) from First Republic Bank and steering it through the shell company Essential Consultants, which paid Daniels’ then-lawyer, Keith Davidson. That payment was marked as a “retainer.” In return, Cohen received $420,000 in reimbursements paid off in $35,000 increments and marked “legal fees,” according to federal court records. Cohen shared checks bearing Trump’s signature with Congress.

    If the Trump Organization made the former president whole for those reimbursements, Florence says that’s “income.”

    “It’s personal income, and if he didn’t report it as such on his personal tax returns filed with New York State and the feds as well — but, again, we’re talking about a state crime — then, that would be tax fraud,” she added.

    The “grossing up” of the $130,000 hush-money payment to a $420,000 reimbursement bears some explanation. Cohen claimed $60,000 in campaign-related “tech services” and an equivalent bonus. The difference accounted for any taxes or interest Cohen would have had to pay to recoup the original HELOC.

    After CNN first reported that the indictment has 34 charges, Florence argued that the multiplicity of offenses is consistent with a tax fraud theory on a hush-money case.
    ……….

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  241. Because I’ve been paying attention. This isn’t new. And I don’t ascribe it to just nevertrump. The funny part is that if the last 6-7 years doesn’t have enough evidence it’s right there in the name.

    You ascribed it to NeverTrump without qualification, frosty, which is a smear. Same goes for your other pathetic paragraph. It’s unhelpful and unconstructive.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  242. You address views/people you disagree with using hostile, derogatory, or unkind descriptions that paint a very negative picture of those views/people, frosty. It isn’t necessary to the argument but apparently it is something you need to di.

    DRJ (0abb72) — 3/31/2023 @ 9:37 am

    Is this a criticism you would also make against nevertrumpers? Or more specifically some of the other commenters here who do the exact thing you’re ascribing to me?

    but frosty and buduh are the only ones that strike me that way

    Is it possible that this has more to do with the positions taken than the manner in which they are taken? Otherwise, I’m not sure why buduh and I are the only ones that make your list.

    frosty (d09065)

  243. As for “by any means necessary”, you don’t need a cannon to squash a bug. We can rid ourselves of the loathsome orange tick without comprising our principles, violating our laws, or subverting our institutions.

    nk (bb1548) — 3/31/2023 @ 9:32 am

    We could have. For various versions of “we”, we didn’t. And so far it’s yet to be seen whether compromising our principles, violating our laws, and subverting our institutions will actually rid ourselves of him.

    frosty (d09065)

  244. Could I be wrong? Of course, but IMO you both are both consistently callous toward those with whom you disagree. I wouldn’t be surprised if Trump supporters feel that way here because Trump has so much opposition, but IMO Patterico has always tried to understand their concerns.

    DRJ (0abb72)

  245. Need I remind you that I voted for Trump twice? So I am not your target but you seem to include people who criticize Trump.

    DRJ (0abb72)

  246. You ascribed it to NeverTrump without qualification, frosty, which is a smear. Same goes for your other pathetic paragraph. It’s unhelpful and unconstructive.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 3/31/2023 @ 10:47 am

    Pathetic? At least you’re not being hostile, derogatory, or unkind.

    The rules on this seem so arbitrary. Questioning UKR makes a person pro-Putin. No qualification there. Questioning nevertrump makes a person pro-Trump. No qualification there. Questioning the covid response made a person anti-vax. No qualification there. I forgot the details from your comment but apparently all russians are horrible people. No qualification there. Questioning the J6 narrative makes a person pro-sedition. No qualification there.

    It seems ironic that you’re now looking for nuance and qualifications.

    frosty (d09065)

  247. frosty, you’re once again engaging in invidious overgeneralizations, which I’ll again say is unhelpful and unconstructive, but you do you.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  248. If it helps your sense of justice, frosty, I akready told Patterico I am self-deporting for breaking the rule against personal attacks. I am not sorry I did it but there are and should be consequences.

    DRJ (0abb72)

  249. Kevin #231—I do think that some of the policies that DJT promoted are good. My issue is that, again, he makes everything he touches radioactive.

    And, again, it was not necessary. Being a jackwagon is simply his choice.

    “He fights” doesn’t mean “must pay off hookers.”

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  250. DRJ, I miss you and your comments. Just saying.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  251. Need I remind you that I voted for Trump twice? So I am not your target but you seem to include people who criticize Trump.

    DRJ (0abb72) — 3/31/2023 @ 11:10 am

    Our first exchange in this thread was

    DRJ (0abb72) — 3/31/2023 @ 8:42 am

    where you said I was callous and unworthy of respect but I’m targeting you? You engaged me with an insult and I simply asked you a question in return. What have I said that is even particularly negative towards you?

    frosty (d09065)

  252. If it helps your sense of justice, frosty, I akready told Patterico I am self-deporting for breaking the rule against personal attacks. I am not sorry I did it but there are and should be consequences.

    DRJ (0abb72) — 3/31/2023 @ 11:18 am

    It’s not justice and I don’t think it’s necessary. But I can respect your position.

    Another option would be to set an example for the sort of comments you actually want to see more of.

    frosty (d09065)

  253. @88

    Florida will not assist in an extradition request given the questionable circumstances at issue with this Soros-backed Manhattan prosecutor and his political agenda.

    Kevin M (1ea396) — 3/30/2023 @ 4:31 pm

    Um… I didn’t think states could ignore any extradition request. (isn’t there constitutional provisions written about this?)

    whembly (d116f3)

  254. @88

    As for assisting in an extradition request, since Puerto Rico v. Branstad (1987), federal district courts have jurisdiction to enforce Article IV, Section 2, Clause 2, namely the Extradition Clause of the Constitution. No Florida Man required. The court will issue a UFAP warrant and the Secret Service will deliver Trump to Manhattan.

    nk (5aaf45) — 3/30/2023 @ 4:45 pm

    There it is…

    Goes to show, I need to read the whole damn thing before responding.

    whembly (d116f3)

  255. Another option would be to set an example for the sort of comments you actually want to see more of.

    frosty (d09065) — 3/31/2023 @ 11:43 am

    All i csn say to that is: This is the perfect time for me to leave.

    DRJ (0abb72)

  256. I have never been a fan of Dana Milbank, who strikes me as a shallow and lazy partisan, but he does occasionally write something funny:

    Be honest: Who among us has not had an extramarital affair with a porn star?

    It is the rare person who can truthfully say he or she has not. And that is why I admonish you: Let he who has not lied about using campaign funds to pay hush money cast the first stone!

    Tucker Carlon says such payoffs are “ordinary” in corporate America and among celebrities. (He would know more aobut such things than I.)

    I suppose we can be grateful that he hasn’t — so far — said they were admirable.

    Jim Miller (0e46f9)

  257. @233

    Good for DeSantis, Haley and McCarthy.

    DeSantis is either posturing (more likely) or advocating violating the Constitution; see Puerto Rico v. Branstad (1987).

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 3/31/2023 @ 10:01 am

    It’s posturing.

    Frankly, I’m not even sure how extraditing an unwilling indictee works between the states. I’m assuming it’s the FL state trouper who would arrest and coordinate with NY state police with the transfer.

    However, with Trump, there’s another wrinkle: Namely the Secret Service. They ain’t going to let ANY state officials to “arrest” former Presidents. They’ll provide the escort to comply with the extradition.

    …and I think the DeSantis folks knows this, and thus it’s all performative political posturing.

    whembly (d116f3)

  258. @358 All i csn say to that is: This is the perfect time for me to leave.

    DRJ (0abb72) — 3/31/2023 @ 12:29 pm
    Please don’t go.

    Stay, and let’s all work together to keep this place hopping with interesting debates.

    whembly (d116f3)

  259. DRJ,

    You’re a valued member of the community. I just wish you’d look at frosty’s posiiton from jis POV and look a but more jaded at the moby’s here that share glee at the opposition within Republicans as they always declare “this is not the hill to die on” as they always give the “conservative case” for support8ng leftism.

    NJRob (e7b892)

  260. Please don’t go, DRJ. We need your comments, but I understand your reason and I admire you for it.

    felipe (77b190)

  261. That’s Trump, felipe. All on Trump.

    You are absolutely right about Trump, nk. But it is not all on Trump. Name a politician in whom you have trust. I cannot think of one.

    felipe (77b190)

  262. DRJ has been a breath of fresh air. I hope she sticks around.

    By the way, as a one-time Trump voter (2016), I’m happy to be ensconced between Patterico and DRJ. 😁

    norcal (7b2be1)

  263. Trump has agreed to an arrest on Tuesday:

    https://www.newser.com/story/333442/trump-agrees-to-arrest-terms.html

    Court officials in New York said Friday that they plan to arraign Donald Trump at 2pm Tuesday. The former president’s presence is expected in a 15th-floor Manhattan courtroom for the proceeding, they said. A lawyer for Trump said his team has agreed with the district attorney’s office on how the arrest will be handled, Fox News reports: Trump is to surrender to detectives, who will not handcuff him. The Secret Service will decide how the former president is brought to Judge Juan Merchan’s courtroom. A meeting was scheduled for Friday afternoon among representatives of the FBI, New York City police, New York state court officers, the Secret Service, and the district attorney’s office to settle logistical and security arrangements.

    This did take Trump by surprise. And I think he ramped up his attacks against Bragg at the end of last week when it looked like an indictment wasn’t coming.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  264. 243.

    If the Trump Organization made the former president whole for those reimbursements, Florence says that’s “income.”

    I think the Trump Organization must be a pass through corporation.

    You saw the picture of him with his tax return? It’;s all pass through corporations. Hundreds of them.

    It;s all after tax income.

    The thing not to do is deduct any inflated fees by Michael Cohen as a business expense.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  265. Norcal, I only voted for Trump once, in 2020. I still have a perfect voting record of 0 – xx. No candidate has ever gotten my vote and become President. Heads up, I’m voting Republican no matter what in 2024. Trump will go third party and the Dems take the WH again.

    felipe (77b190)

  266. Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 3/31/2023 @ 2:36 pm

    Here’s hoping the SS and NY officers are on their toes. We don’t need another Oswald situation.

    frosty (d09065)

  267. 249. frosty (d09065) — 3/31/2023 @ 11:14 am

    Questioning UKR makes a person pro-Putin.

    Objectively, as Whittaker Chambers said the Communists used to say.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  268. Patterico doesn’t prescribe removal for rule violations.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  269. frosty (d09065) — 3/31/2023 @ 2:42 pm

    This is where Trump’s decision to let the Clintons “slide” will pay off.

    felipe (77b190)

  270. The enthusiasm found here for one party rule is both amusing and revealing.

    Colonel Haiku (0b5b08)

  271. Thank you for writing it.

    First, my wife, who just read this over my shoulder, has instructed me to say, “don’t encourage him.” Next, if you’re still around, which I hope you are and will continue to be, coming from you I consider that high praise and you’re more than welcome.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  272. Your wife is funny, lurker!

    norcal (7b2be1)

  273. felipe (77b190) — 3/31/2023 @ 2:42 pm

    Well, nobody’s perfect, felipe. 😛

    norcal (7b2be1)

  274. Man, when they’ve even lost the RINOs…

    Colonel Haiku (99214d)

  275. Your wife is funny, lurker!

    She is. After I showed her some related comments, previous and subsequent, she also agreed with Rob that I’m a moby. Mind you she doesn’t know what a moby is, but she’s confident I must be one.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  276. Mind you she doesn’t know what a moby is, but she’s confident I must be one.

    lurker (cd7cd4) — 3/31/2023 @ 3:40 pm

    🤣

    norcal (7b2be1)

  277. I come and go but this going is punishment for a personal attack on another commenter. I know the rules and I used to enforce the penalties, and this is the right thing to do. I have never intentionally said negative things about a commenter before (except perhaps DCSCA, but I know he has a lot more to offer than his parents’ 50 year old views). I will do other things for awhile. There is plenty in the news to chew on, plus Patterico’s great analysis that I predict will get more attention now.

    DRJ (0abb72)

  278. lurker’s wife: I hear you but it was a very good comment.

    DRJ (0abb72)

  279. I myself have attacked people around here a few times lately. They all had it coming but I was not proud of how I acted. I forgive myself. To the extent you attacked frosty, DRJ, I pronounce that he had it coming and you are forgiven. I find his comments basically worthless partisan trash, combined with a heaping helping of whining. For evidence see: this comment thread. (*waves hands about*) The idea that we’d benefit by preserving that sort of thing and losing someone like you is ridiculous. As I told you privately, your punishment is banishment for zero seconds. Meanwhile I should consider whether it’s really worthwhile having people around who are so partisan that I am tempted continually to tell them what I really think of them.

    Patterico (d65a34)

  280. For nevertrump it’s always been some version of by any means necessary because we’ve got to defend The Norms ™.

    The newest one is trans people killing little kids because of oppression.

    Followed by doubling and tripling down when the absurdly broad-brush nature of this ridiculous claim.

    What is gained by allowing such trash in my comment section? Some free speech advocate, make the case, if you can.

    Patterico (d65a34)

  281. Another option would be to set an example for the sort of comments you actually want to see more of.

    I have always bent over backwards here to allow people to express different points of view. But “all nevertrump is super bad because blah blah” is just not a point of view that provokes good discussion.

    You know what? I think I’ve made up my mind. I’m going to moderate you for a bit, frosty, and consider releasing comments that seem like they are designed to get a differing point of view out there, while leaving in moderation the sorts of generalized smears and/or whining that have characterized basically all of your comments in this thread.

    If I find I am not releasing any of your comments, I guess I will know where I stand.

    Patterico (d65a34)

  282. Reacting to this decision with efforts to discuss issues without personal attacks would be a constructive response.

    Whining about your feels that you are being treated unfairly would not be.

    Just a guide for the types of comments I’ll be considering releasing.

    Patterico (91224a)

  283. Mind you she doesn’t know what a moby is, but she’s confident I must be one.

    Moby defined. Yeah, Rob has smeared me with that one, too, and then he whines about name-calling. Good times.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  284. Thank you for the pardon. I think frosty is a valuable commenter, but I also think he is unnecessarily harsh.

    frosty, I will try to write comments that make my point in a kind way. I hope you will do the same.

    DRJ (0abb72)

  285. Of course, there are people online and in life who aren’t about discussion. They want to sow discord or just watch people jump when they snap their fingers. If that is what you are, frosty, stay in moderation.

    DRJ (0abb72)

  286. Um… I didn’t think states could ignore any extradition request. (isn’t there constitutional provisions written about this?)

    They have in the past (e.g. Jerry Brown refusing to extradite Dennis Banks to SD), but later the courts ruled they could not do that any more.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  287. I myself have attacked people around here

    We all have bad days.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  288. Froety did nothing to earn moderation other than be a voice of dissent.

    For shame.

    NJRob (924846)

  289. That’s a false characterization, NJRob. I don’t like false characterizations. Maybe you would like to be next. Give you a chance to cry about how you are a martyr for the cause. You’d love that, wouldn’t you?

    Tell me exactly why he is being moderated and how that is different from mere dissent. If you can’t tell the difference, I don’t want you here.

    Patterico (f5d3b4)

  290. I want to hear other points of view,NJRob, but I am sick of whining and smears and I am going to start doing something about it.

    Patterico (f5d3b4)

  291. Patterico,

    your trend lately has been to silence dissent. The louder the voice, the quicker you are to silence them. Look back at your recent bans. You think you are being fair or just? Or are you just acting out against people you disagree with and don’t want to read their opinions anymore.

    It’s clear you banned frosty because DRJ decided to self-censor. Period.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  292. How about going after the smears of those who tar all those who decide to work within the current party?

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  293. He who owns the blog makes the rules.

    Rip Murdock (f6813a)

  294. your trend lately has been to silence dissent.

    That’s a tortured misreading. He was asking for evidence, and frosty ranted instead.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  295. Dana’s characterization of frosty was accurate. Too many tortured word games. Try to add more and not be annoying. View your participation through the eyes of your hosts. Trying to give Putin some benefit of the doubt just comes across as obnoxious

    AJ_Liberty (4cb472)

  296. Here’s a comment from an American who was held hostage by a hostile foreign power.

    When reporting on Evan’s ordeal, avoid repeating the Russian narrative. The fact that he is a hostage is the story, not the supposed charges against him. Constantly humanize Evan.
    Drop all our notions of competition and steel ourselves for a potentially long ordeal. #FreeEvan

    This is good, too. Reveal this “spy’s” body of work.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  297. your trend lately has been to silence dissent. The louder the voice, the quicker you are to silence them. Look back at your recent bans. You think you are being fair or just? Or are you just acting out against people you disagree with and don’t want to read their opinions anymore.

    It’s clear you banned frosty because DRJ decided to self-censor. Period.

    Patterico explained why he’s moderating frosty, and that ain’t it. Are you saying he lied or that you know his mind better than he does? Either way you’re impugning his motives. You complain that you’re being personally attacked when others criticize your comments, but you’re fine with impugning his motives, which is in fact a personal attack?

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  298. “It’s clear you banned frosty because DRJ decided to self-censor. Period.”

    This is Patterico’s blog. You and I do not pay to post here. You are a guest. I analagize this to him inviting you into his home to sit at his counter and discuss politics. In the end, if he tires of you, finds you obnoxious or tedious or feels that you are driving away other readers, then he can remove you temporarily or permanently. It’s probably better to take his criticisms to heart and adapt some. He’s judge, jury, and executioner and it’s probably unwise to critique how he operates his blog.

    This blog is better if discussions reflect nuance and contain different viewpoints. But I think Patterico…and many of us…are tired of tedious hyper-partisanship trying to mask as a subtle viewpoint. It offers little nuance or hope of persuasion. Patterico voted for Biden over Trump. He says he will do it again if necessary. You regularly excoriate anyone who didn’t vote for Trump as owning every negative consequence, real or imagined. Can you appreciate how your host might tire of these blanket attacks as if he has not thoroughly outlined his reasoning? At some point it’s just disrespectful. He owes you nothing in this context.

    Patterico wants more readers here, including ones like DRJ. You should respect that goal and not antagonize him or Dana.

    AJ_Liberty (4cb472)

  299. Biden has decided not to comment on this case (even to say the justice system should be respected and allowed to work)

    Sammy Finkelman (67ff0c)


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