Endless Fame and Glory! Patterico Substack Piece Gets a Mention on the Advisory Opinions Podcast
I thought I would mention that my latest Substack post, which takes issue with the views of the Trump indictment expressed by the hosts of the Advisory Opinions podcast, got a mention from . . . the hosts of the Advisory Opinions podcast. The podcast came out this morning, and the hosts had such a jam-packed show that they didn’t have time to get to the substance of my post on this go-around — but they suggested they might discuss the arguments in a future podcast. For those who don’t listen (although you should! — it’s a great podcast), I decided to transcribe the comments about my Substack post so you can see exactly what was said.
At 1:11:
ISGUR: Then, we had a wonderful listener do an entire Substack post discussing our podcast on the potential New York indictment. He pointed out some great ideas, possibilities, hypotheticals, flaws in our arguments, and if we’ve got time I want to run through those, and regardless I want to put it in the show notes. He is not a New York prosecutor, but he is a state prosecutor, and he raised some great points all around.
And at 51:42:
ISGUR: All right, we’re going to leave the long Substack post about our potential New York indictment pod for another pod, but I am going to put it in the show notes for those who are curious and really want to dive in and do their homework before the next pod.
FRENCH: It’s really good.
ISGUR: It was really well done, and thoughtful, and we just so appreciate someone taking the time to take our arguments so seriously, to then find the flaws in them, which I thought were well pointed out.
Aw, shucks, guys. Those are kinder words than I probably deserved. It’s an honor to even be mentioned on one of my favorite podcasts. It’s not clear to me whether they will take up the substance of my Substack post on the next podcast, or whether it might be deferred until Bragg actually brings this indictment . . . if he ever does. We now know the grand jury is taking a month-long hiatus, meaning Trump got everybody wound up about nothing, which he is very good at.
Many were complaining that the first indictment of a former president should be a strong case — not a crazy complaint! Well, with this hiatus, maybe that’s what is going to happen. I can’t imagine that the Georgia indictment is far off. Stay tuned!
UPDATE: Spoke too soon!
Yes, I think that Bragg will indict, but as a follow-on. First impressions are important and the first case should be something the
Kevin M (1ea396) — 3/30/2023 @ 9:01 amlaymanvoters can understand. At least half my criticism of Bragg’s case is that it is so complicated that even attorneys have trouble working through it and it will be too easy to spin.The tape of Trump trying to get GA officials to manufacture votes is hard to get around, leaving apologists to argue only that it was a steal to stop The Steal™.
Kevin M (1ea396) — 3/30/2023 @ 9:03 amAny
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 3/30/2023 @ 9:23 ampersecutionprosecution of Trump, whether in New York, Georgia, or DC, will be considered to be politically motivated and will benefit Trump by riling up his base. There is no way to avoid it.#3
There are going to be a lot of people you can’t satisfy. You can’t worry about them. New York’s Stormy case was just the wrong case to start with — and we have seen why over the past week.
Appalled (03f53c) — 3/30/2023 @ 9:51 am#4
Although I agree with you, that’s not how we are doing things these days. Every interest group needs a special bone along the road their pursuit of happiness runs.
steveg (f07edb) — 3/30/2023 @ 10:25 amTrumps fans will never give up unless he gives up, and that will never happen. Look at all he has done that he admits to. If that didn’t work to discourage most Republicans, nothing will. A few court cases won’t change any minds.
DRJ (0abb72) — 3/30/2023 @ 10:52 amCongratulations to Patterico on the brief mention. I hope they dive in deeper to his argument.
DRJ (0abb72) — 3/30/2023 @ 10:54 amKevin M (1ea396) — 3/30/2023 @ 9:03 am
Trump did not try to get Georgia officials to manufacture.
votes, although that is what they would have had to do to satisfy him.
He never asked for anything that he didn’t claim he was entitled to. He claimed he has been deprived of votes, although most of his examples – and he switched quickly from one claim to another – were of extra votes Biden supposedly got.
The “threat” was empty, since, at a minimum, it depended on Trump winning the election and the chances of that were very small, and even smaller without Georgia.
He “warned” them that they could be breaking the law by not counting votes correctly.
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 3/30/2023 @ 11:07 amThe Georgia case contains the most serious potential charge, but the facts don’t bear it out. Trump never broke character. And organizing – to the extent he was personally involved with that – false electors was merely a legal ploy that didn’t fool anyone.
The most dangerous charge for Trump is defying a subpoena (for government documents he retained) by misrepresentation. That’s the thing I think he’s most likely guilty of. Holding national defense information- many officials have done that.
If he secretly (not by his speech at the Ellipse, which didn’t have that effect) conspired to cause the storming of the Capitol, he would be guilty of a serious crime, but the evidence is all against that because he wanted to go to the Capitol himself – something that would not have been true if he expected a riot. He was not some Teddy Roosevelt leading Rough Riders in a charge, and besides he had a completely different plan to stall the vote count that day. Something studiously omitted by the Jan 6 committee in its hearings, except where it had to be alluded to.
It involved objections by members of Congress, and the riot could not accomplish more than the same maximum 1-day delay. )and delaying things through noon of Jan 20 would only have made Nancy Pelosi Acting president. Trump knew he could get only a 1-day delay – that’s why he was desperate for Mike Pence to try to give him a 10-day delay in the certification (based on claims by Giuliani about what could happen in those ten days with the state legislatures)
There has been no intimation of any further planning by the rioters beyond the storming of the Capitol (besides their fake calls to hand Mike Pence and kill Nancy Pelosi and others, which they clearly had no intention of even trying to do (because of risk to themselves – they didn’t even carry any guns into the Capitol)
At most they hoped that Donald Trump would use the disturbance as an excuse to declare martial law – something that might have worked in Russia or that a Russian might think would be feasible – Mike Flynn was arguing for that before the riot. But Donald Trump was no fool.
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 3/30/2023 @ 11:24 am* fake calls to hang Mike Pence.
The gallows erected on the Capitol grounds was not a serious attempt to hang Mike Pence. Nobody has been prosecuted for that.
Trump wanted a rally at the Capitol because he thought those numbers (which he greatly exaggerated) could influence at least Republican members of Congress to reject Electoral votes.
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 3/30/2023 @ 11:29 amSammy is a good example of the way you want Trump supporters to be arguing. You want them to be the ones coming up with the convoluted arguments on why what you saw isn’t what you saw. The argument for Georgia boils down to “He always talks like that so pay the simple boy no mind.”
Appalled (03f53c) — 3/30/2023 @ 11:42 amTrump did not try to get Georgia officials to manufacture.
votes, although that is what they would have had to do to satisfy him.
Do you ever read what you write?
Kevin M (1ea396) — 3/30/2023 @ 11:49 amA few court cases won’t change any minds.
A J6 conviction will disqualify him for office and his name will not appear on the ballot. Good enough. Even if Idaho secedes.
Kevin M (1ea396) — 3/30/2023 @ 11:52 amHow were they fake? Didn’t they occur? While the gallows may or may not have been a serious attempt, it was a potent symbol.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 3/30/2023 @ 11:58 amIt would require a conviction for engaging in an insurrection or rebellion against the United States “or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof”, and no one to date has been charged under 18 U.S. Code § 2383 for the events of January 6th.
As it has been said, any indictment of Trump will occur in 2024 and been seen as political revenge, much like a Hillary Clinton prosecution. And Trump would be stronger for it.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 3/30/2023 @ 12:14 pmInciting an insurrection is sufficient. Do you doubt he did that?
Kevin M (1ea396) — 3/30/2023 @ 12:16 pmAnd I think that there will be enough flipped Proud Boys to testify that he conspired in the sedition they have already been convicted of.
Kevin M (1ea396) — 3/30/2023 @ 12:18 pmTrumps fans will never give up unless he gives up, and that will never happen. Look at all he has done that he admits to. If that didn’t work to discourage most Republicans, nothing will. A few court cases won’t change any minds.
Yep. And given the plethora of court cases he has fielded over four decades in NY, high profile divorces, shady casino, contractor and real estate dealings, not to mention two impeachments, they aren’t abandoning him. And given the Fox News poll released yesterday, the numbers in the GOP coalescing around him keep growing:
https://www.foxnews.com/official-polls/fox-news-poll-trumps-lead-grows-in-gop-primary-race-now-over-50-support
But the issue isn’t Trump alone; it’s populism– and he just happens to be the current standard bearer. It’s a concern for both major parties which allowed it to fester and root for decades. And as long as the current batch of nested, swampy Royalists, both Ds & Rs, battle to cling to power rather than address the hows and whys to quell it, it keeps growing – cycle after cycle- doesn’t appear to be dissipating any time soon.
DCSCA (6302e6) — 3/30/2023 @ 12:35 pmAn argument can be made either way whether his speech at The Ellipse was incitement or protected speech. If comes down to parsing language and questions of Trump’s state of mind, that’s a losing strategy. The legal standard for an incitement conviction is very high, as the Supreme Court held that “freedoms of speech and press do not permit a State to forbid advocacy of the use of force or of law violation except where such advocacy is directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action.” That is the question that must be answered.
We’ll see what an indictment (if any) says. A better case rests on his machinations regarding fake electors, pressuring Pence, phone calls to Senators, etc. I wouldn’t count on the Proud Boys. Hope is not a strategy.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 3/30/2023 @ 12:37 pmKevin M (1ea396) — 3/30/2023 @ 12:18 pm
So far, none.
And since Trump is unlikely to have talked personally with anyone from the Proud Boys, or the Oath Keepers, or the Three percenters, there would have to be intermediaries close to Trump involved, too.
But Trump’s plan for the day, which was almost ruined by the riot, plus his strong desire to go the Capitol himself, puts the lie to the idea that he had any idea was coming — and what in fact had already started by the time he wanted to go into the limousine and travel to the Capitol. (where he probably wanted to address a rally and lobby members of Congress in person)
Trump probably had indirect contact with people who organized the riot, but they tricked him.
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 3/30/2023 @ 12:54 pmA J6 conviction will disqualify him for office and his name will not appear on the ballot. Good enough. Even if Idaho secedes.
Kevin M (1ea396) — 3/30/2023 @ 11:52 am
prosecutors deciding elections is soooo Russian
JF (fe5230) — 3/30/2023 @ 12:54 pmfake calls to hang Mike Pence.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 3/30/2023 @ 11:58 am
Yes, they did. But they were just for effect. Fake. (although the Secret Service was right to worry about that
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 3/30/2023 @ 12:57 pm@16/@17. All this will do is create a ‘martyr’ and steel populist devotees w/resolve. Prosecuting and imprisoning Ghandhi didn’t end well for the Brits; and prosecuting imprisoning you-know-who back in 1923 didn’t work out to well for Germany, Europe– and the world:
‘Adolf Hitler is sentenced for his role in the Beer Hall Putsch of November 8, 1923. The attempted coup in Munich by right-wing members of the army and the Nazi Party was foiled by the government, and Hitler was charged with high treason. Despite his conviction, Hitler was out of jail before the end of the year, with his political position stronger than ever. The failed coup turned out to be quite a boon for Adolf Hitler. His trial brought him more attention and publicity than ever before. With a crowd of thousands-including press from around the world-watching the proceedings, Hitler made the most of this opportunity by going on the offensive.’ – https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/beer-hall-putsch-secures-hitlers-rise-to-power
It can fuel a possible Biden re-up, too- if he decides to run or doesn’t pass in office. Don’t think he will run- hence the stalling to announce a decision; as the moment he does he either becomes an instant lame duck or just another swamp creatured candidate having to justify the trainwreck of his first term.
DCSCA (6302e6) — 3/30/2023 @ 1:00 pmImpeachment and sentence by the Senate could have disqualified Trump for federal office.
No criminal conviction can, although a state could disqualify anyone for any reason from being listed as someone electors were pledged to provided they did it before the election. I’m not sure they could force any Electors elected not to vote for said candidate.
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 3/30/2023 @ 1:01 pmI wouldn’t count on the Proud Boys. Hope is not a strategy.
I guess you haven’t been paying attention to those upset that there was no blanket pardon, and their claims that they were just doing what Trump told them to do.
Kevin M (1ea396) — 3/30/2023 @ 1:09 pmI don’t think any Trump supporters would argue what I do because it doesn’t say anything for Trump. It just tried to go no further than the facts. I don’t feel that Trump ever asked Raffensperger to fake election results. He was always claiming his claims were legitimate.
He talked as if Raffensperger’s reluctance to do anything to help him because of Raffensperger’s fear of damaging his own reputation, and not because of loyalty to the truth.
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 3/30/2023 @ 1:11 pmNo criminal conviction can
There are charges that attach such a disqualification. Even if that’s not constitutional, all blue and most purple states would deny him a ballot line. Some probably will in any event. The current version of the Electoral Count Act allows Congress to refuse to count electoral votes for things that, in their opinion, fall under the 14th Amendment qualification.
Kevin M (1ea396) — 3/30/2023 @ 1:11 pmAnd the NYT says he’s been indicted in NY.
Appalled (bda17b) — 3/30/2023 @ 2:32 pm@28. Fox News is as well. More martyrism to suck up the media oxygen; Bragg has all but assured Trump will get the GOP nomination– and he’ll use it to run for NY governor.
DCSCA (1437d6) — 3/30/2023 @ 2:37 pmNBC News says they voted on an indictment.
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/manhattan-grand-jury-voted-whether-indict-trump-rcna73588
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 3/30/2023 @ 2:37 pmhttps://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-truth-social-war-indictment-b2310323.html
A legal war.
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 3/30/2023 @ 2:40 pmBS. The gallows was minature and could not have fit a small child.
It was symbolic just like the constant hanging in effigy that was done during George W Bush’s presidency.
NJRob (1005fb) — 3/30/2023 @ 2:43 pmThe grand jury met today but we were told they hearing other cases. They heard from their last witness, David Pecker on Monday. If they indicted Trump, that’s what they did on Wednesday.
As a letter writer to the Wall Street Journal said, this is not like indicting a ham sandwich, but it’s a baloney sandwich.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/two-questions-for-alvin-bragg-on-the-trump-indictment-new-york-grand-jury-459d00eb?mod=opinion_major_pos18
Sammy Finkelman (02a146) — 3/30/2023 @ 2:46 pmNJRob (1005fb) — 3/30/2023 @ 2:43 pm
There were some people calling to hang Mike Pence, but it just wasn’t real, although nobody knows what would have happened had Mike Pence confronted the crowd.
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 3/30/2023 @ 2:48 pmDCSCA (1437d6) — 3/30/2023 @ 2:37 pm
The way Trump is behaving, his gain will be absorbed by his loss.
I don’t think Bragg is interested. And the election is not until 2026. He’ll be lucky to be re-elected District Attorney. H’s doing this because of arguments people made to him. Two prosecutors resigned when he gave up the other case.
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 3/30/2023 @ 2:51 pmNow look at this stupid thing: (apparently from last week)
https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-bragg-trump-resigned/fact-check-march-2023-posts-saying-manhattan-da-has-resigned-and-dropped-trump-investigation-stem-from-edited-video-idUSL1N3601MO
You can’t even make money in the stock market from this false rumor. What stock or future would be affected?
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 3/30/2023 @ 2:55 pmThat was a big shark!
Colonel Haiku (a1a963) — 3/30/2023 @ 2:57 pmThe Washington Post, the Wall Street Journal, CNN< Rolling Stone and NBC News say he's been indicted.
And the Associated Press, citing Donald Trump's lawyer.
https://apnews.com/article/trump-hush-money-new-york-indictment-election-027d0e5ac1881a4c55c6379deae75faa
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 3/30/2023 @ 3:00 pm@Colonel Haiku
What shark? The shark that was jumped?
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 3/30/2023 @ 3:01 pmSo, preparations are being made for Trumps arrest, I presume. And just after everyone has assumed that Trump had been bluffing.
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 3/30/2023 @ 3:02 pmSo that’s why Putin arrested the WSJ reporter! To have somebody to trade for Trump.
nk (5aaf45) — 3/30/2023 @ 3:03 pmI assume that the statute of limitations is no problem. It can be extended for another five years, and DRJ linked to a case. Although what that law really meant could be another question
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 3/30/2023 @ 3:04 pmShow me the man and I’ll show you the crime.
Got it.
NJRob (eb56c3) — 3/30/2023 @ 3:06 pmTrump may want this case to go first (I mean the trial)
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 3/30/2023 @ 3:07 pmShow me the man and I’ll show you the crime.
Unbelievable. Trump as Little Bo Peep.
Kevin M (1ea396) — 3/30/2023 @ 3:08 pmTo have somebody to trade for Trump.
Why? We’d send Robert Hanssen if they’d agreed to take Trump, too.
Kevin M (1ea396) — 3/30/2023 @ 3:11 pmIn the boil the tip of the needle been inserted has.
nk (5aaf45) — 3/30/2023 @ 3:11 pmThe New York Times seems to be claiming he was indicted today:
https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/03/30/nyregion/trump-indictment-news
Shows you how much you can know what’s going on behind the closed doors of a grand jury.
Today the grand jury was supposed to be hearing another case, and then meet again on Monday and Tuesday but with no Trump case witnesses. Thursday is the first day of Passover, and then they are off for two (?) weeks so till April 24 or was that wrong and it was only till April 17?
Oh, so the arrest doesn’t happen the next day after an indictment, as Trump indicated to us about two weeks ago? (the next possible date for an indictment was then Monday)
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 3/30/2023 @ 3:16 pmWell, gosh.
Donald Trump Is Indicted in New York: Live Updates
Mistake.
Kevin M (1ea396) — 3/30/2023 @ 3:18 pm@47. Tee-dee-ess Yoda.
(Obviously kidding about the tee-dee-ess. Obviously not about Yoda.)
lurker (cd7cd4) — 3/30/2023 @ 3:18 pmOh, so the arrest doesn’t happen the next day after an indictment, as Trump indicated to us about two weeks ago?
Sammy, if Trump indicates that Monday happens after Sunday, check!
nk (5aaf45) — 3/30/2023 @ 3:19 pmTrump may want his trial to be televised. They’d have to make an exception for that.
https://ww2.nycourts.gov/rules/chiefadmin/131.shtml
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 3/30/2023 @ 3:21 pm“Come and get me, you dirty rats!”
Kevin M (1ea396) — 3/30/2023 @ 3:23 pmTrump didn’t say it would happen the next day after an indictment, but that would have been the basis for his prediction he was going to be arrested the next Tuesday.
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 3/30/2023 @ 3:23 pmWay to go Yew Nork Democrats! You cowardly, vindictive corksoakers, you.
A long dead misdemeanor (at worst) massaged and crafted into a felony.
Colonel Haiku (a1a963) — 3/30/2023 @ 3:26 pmAnd the NYT says he’s been indicted in NY.
Appalled (bda17b) — 3/30/2023 @ 2:32 pm
Gee. That’s too bad.
norcal (7b2be1) — 3/30/2023 @ 3:26 pmIn the boil the tip of the needle been inserted has.
It will be amazing the amount of puss that will exude.
Kevin M (1ea396) — 3/30/2023 @ 3:28 pmWhen Trump is re-elected in a landslide … heads, pikes, walls.
A prediction, not a wish.
Kevin M (1ea396) — 3/30/2023 @ 3:32 pmBS. The gallows was minature and could not have fit a small child.
NJRob (1005fb) — 3/30/2023 @ 2:43 pm
That’s the funny thing about symbols. They need not be to scale.
norcal (7b2be1) — 3/30/2023 @ 3:41 pmI’d say that’s an unlikely prediction, but if 2016 convinced me of anything, it’s that my own predictions of decency and sanity have the power to make the most unimaginably awful things happen.
lurker (cd7cd4) — 3/30/2023 @ 3:43 pmA question…..
Are there any people who would happily describe themselves as “never trumpers” unsatisfied by this? Does anybody fear manipulation and having to deal with a “deviant Trump” sweeping the republican primary?
Joe (978bb7) — 3/30/2023 @ 3:46 pmIs this impossible?
When Trump is re-elected in a landslide … heads, pikes, walls.
A prediction, not a wish.
What would you expect to happen if he had not been indicted?
nk (5aaf45) — 3/30/2023 @ 3:47 pmLOL @61
Joe (978bb7) — 3/30/2023 @ 3:47 pmDefiant Trump not Deviant Trump.
@62
I was leaning towards Desantis. But I don’t see how he has a chance with this “political felony charge”- i admit, my words.
Joe (978bb7) — 3/30/2023 @ 3:49 pmIt makes trump more popular because we see this as political rather than law.
The Democrats need to get serious, tell Biden and Harris to stand down, find the best possible pair for 2024, and do everything they can to make sure they’re nominated. The future of America depends on it.
nk (5aaf45) — 3/30/2023 @ 3:51 pmThe Isgur-French podcast should discuss your analysis now. In fact, they should invite you on to discuss it.
DRJ (0abb72) — 3/30/2023 @ 3:52 pmPlainclothes NYC police have again been ordered all to report in uniform, like Tuesday a week ago.
Sammy Finkelman (56c301) — 3/30/2023 @ 3:53 pmWhat would you expect to happen if he had not been indicted?
Fewer.
Kevin M (1ea396) — 3/30/2023 @ 4:00 pmwho is “we,” Joe?
DRJ (0abb72) — 3/30/2023 @ 4:02 pmAre there any people who would happily describe themselves as “never trumpers” unsatisfied by this?
Yes. I consider it a mistake, because it will fail and allow Trump to play the martyr extra bigly. I want him jailed into a Supermax for seditious conspiracy and inciting an insurrection. This is petty.
Kevin M (1ea396) — 3/30/2023 @ 4:02 pmWe will now see what effect this has on the GOP primaries. My guess is that Trump will be successful it framing it as a political charge and get people voting with their middle finger. I hope I’m wrong. It should be interesting to see how the other GOP candidates react; they cannot ignore it.
Kevin M (1ea396) — 3/30/2023 @ 4:05 pmThe first rule of dealing with awful people is to not do what they want.
I’m not sue the Left understands that.
P.S. Can we keep from nominating awful people?
Simon Jester (ff9c91) — 3/30/2023 @ 4:05 pmKevin, I do think that many folks on the Left want DJT nominated, instead of the best situation: ignore him, and the lack of attention will make him fade away.
There are too many people—on both sides—who seem to crave screaming and fighting.
Simon Jester (ff9c91) — 3/30/2023 @ 4:06 pmwho is “we,” Joe?
Pretty sure it’s other cult members, but I doubt it will be that limited. The charges are so murky to the layman that Trump will be able to spin this as a crooked political hack job to anyone who might listen.
Kevin M (1ea396) — 3/30/2023 @ 4:07 pmConsider Mencken.
Kevin M (1ea396) — 3/30/2023 @ 4:07 pmthe best situation: ignore him, and the lack of attention will make him fade away.
The best situation now is apoplexy.
Kevin M (1ea396) — 3/30/2023 @ 4:08 pmIt may motivate some to support Trump. It may turn off some, especially those already turned off. I don’t think we know what the undecideds will think, especially if there are other charges in other states/courts.
DRJ (0abb72) — 3/30/2023 @ 4:13 pmI do think that many folks on the Left want DJT nominated, instead of the best situation
Not such a good plan: He won the first time, he barely lost the second time. Are they so unsure of their candidates that they need to roll the dice again?
Kevin M (1ea396) — 3/30/2023 @ 4:13 pmIt may motivate some to support Trump. It may turn off some, especially those already turned off. I don’t think we know what the undecideds will think, especially if there are other charges in other states/courts.
He may beat it. If he has any brains, he will demand a speedy trial.
Kevin M (1ea396) — 3/30/2023 @ 4:15 pmIn the crepuscular* World of MAGA, a certain segment will remain oblivious to the fact that Trump is a hapless loser whom the Democrats can kick around as they please and all he can do about is is whine, snivel, and curse. But I think that segment has maxed out and is going to shrink not expand.
*No, it does not mean that. The word you’re thinking of is feculent. Which also fits.
nk (5aaf45) — 3/30/2023 @ 4:15 pmHere we go again.
Simon Jester (ff9c91) — 3/30/2023 @ 4:19 pmHow much experience does Trump have with criminal cases? His court experience has always been in civil cases, especially cases where he can use delay and intimidation. He is already using intimidation and there are ways for defendants to delay criminal cases, but this case will sit there for a year or more if he does that and the court let’s him.
By then, there may be other cases. This one will fade in the background for most people. The case(s) with something happening will be in the media spotlight. My feeling is, after the initial glare of inductment(s), the drama will get old for undecided voters. It will all be a rehash of old Trump. Not things the current Trump wants to di for America.
DRJ (0abb72) — 3/30/2023 @ 4:19 pmI am not looking forward to watching other folks dance about this in the comments section.
Simon Jester (ff9c91) — 3/30/2023 @ 4:20 pmThey’ve already been dancing or bemoaning it, but let’s wait and see. I don’t think anyone can really know what will happen with voters. It’s uncharted territory for modern times.
DRJ (0abb72) — 3/30/2023 @ 4:22 pmI wonder if Trump’s intimidation tactics, like his “death & destruction” bleat or the one with him holding a baseball bat, are folded into the indictment. We’ll see.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 3/30/2023 @ 4:27 pmRight now, we don’t know what’s in the indictment, right?
Meanwhile, a mob took over the Tennessee legislature while it was in session, objecting to laws against child mutilation.
Kevin M (1ea396) — 3/30/2023 @ 4:28 pmTrumpworld reaction:
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 3/30/2023 @ 4:30 pm
Well, Ron DeSantis is on record:
Kevin M (1ea396) — 3/30/2023 @ 4:31 pmFree link.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 3/30/2023 @ 4:34 pmOOPs. The TN thing was to demand gun control. I may have my calendar mixed up.
Kevin M (1ea396) — 3/30/2023 @ 4:34 pmTennessee Rep. Burchett says of school shootings: ‘We’re not gonna fix it’
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 3/30/2023 @ 4:37 pmWe’ll see how long the federal courts allow that.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 3/30/2023 @ 4:38 pmIt won’t matter as Trump will peaceably surrender.
Kevin M (1ea396) — 3/30/2023 @ 4:39 pmNikki Haley on Twitter
Haley calls this a political prosecution, and revenge, but goes on to call it a distraction from the issues.
Kevin M (1ea396) — 3/30/2023 @ 4:40 pmSad!
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 3/30/2023 @ 4:40 pmPromises made, promises not kept.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 3/30/2023 @ 4:41 pmSpeaker McCarthy:
Congress will enter the clusterfrack. What could go wrong?
Kevin M (1ea396) — 3/30/2023 @ 4:43 pmMeatball (Maca)Ron(i) is the last person to talk about weaponization of the legal system to advance a political agenda.
As for assisting in an extradition request, since Puerto Rico v. Branstad (1987), federal district courts have jurisdiction to enforce Article IV, Section 2, Clause 2, namely the Extradition Clause of the Constitution. No Florida Man required. The court will issue a UFAP warrant and the Secret Service will deliver Trump to Manhattan.
nk (5aaf45) — 3/30/2023 @ 4:45 pmI wonder if Seth Rosenberg will be one of Trump’s criminal attorneys?
DRJ (0abb72) — 3/30/2023 @ 4:48 pmIf only it would go like this:
https://youtu.be/a_z4IuxAqpE
Kevin M (1ea396) — 3/30/2023 @ 4:49 pmI wonder if Seth Rosenberg will be one of Trump’s criminal attorneys?
https://youtu.be/jvlEqAjg8aU?t=34
Kevin M (1ea396) — 3/30/2023 @ 4:52 pmTrump could probably get a really fine lawyer, for maybe $10 million. Of course, he won’t pay that much so he’ll get a guy who doesn’t own a suit.
Kevin M (1ea396) — 3/30/2023 @ 4:55 pmJoe Tacopina is his lead attorney, according to CNN.
Is this the same Sid Rosenberg? It appears Tacopina was a guest on his show about the pending civil case against Trump.
DRJ (0abb72) — 3/30/2023 @ 4:56 pmNo, sorry. Seth Rosenberg is not Sid Rosenberg. Duh.
DRJ (0abb72) — 3/30/2023 @ 4:57 pmA great deal will depend on whether Merrick Garland and Fani Willis let themselves be shown up by Alvin Bragg but, like whatever, it’s the first leak in the dam dike if only a trickle.
nk (5aaf45) — 3/30/2023 @ 5:02 pmCongratulations, we’re just like any other sh!thole country now.
JF (e68188) — 3/30/2023 @ 5:02 pmWay to stand out in a crowd!
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 3/30/2023 @ 5:03 pm*
nk (5aaf45) — 3/30/2023 @ 5:04 pmdamdike*Headline about Trump’s attorney
May be true. May not.
DRJ (0abb72) — 3/30/2023 @ 5:05 pmTancopina is describing this as a terrible injustice, so he will he be arguing reasonable doubt if there is a trial? Most defense counsel do.
DRJ (0abb72) — 3/30/2023 @ 5:07 pmTancopina went from calling Daniels payment an in kind contribution that wasn’t reported and could be big trouble for Trump, to calling it extortion. Kevin M, he’s got your argument.
DRJ (0abb72) — 3/30/2023 @ 5:10 pmUPDATE: Spoke too soon!
Patterico (8d8eb4) — 3/30/2023 @ 5:12 pmYou mean “sh!thole” countries like France, South Korea, Taiwan, Italy and Israel that have prosecuted (and jailed) their former leaders?
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 3/30/2023 @ 5:14 pmBad link. Did you mean this?
Dana (1225fc) — 3/30/2023 @ 5:16 pmhttps://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2023/03/30/trump-indictment-ny-stormy-daniels/#link-AYLXMX235RFCBBZ3OOVJLCO2FA
Kevin M (1ea396) — 3/30/2023 @ 5:16 pmKevin M, he’s got your argument.
Even the devil can quote scripture.
Kevin M (1ea396) — 3/30/2023 @ 5:18 pmSpoke too soon and updated too soon. HTML error, I think fixed.
Patterico (8d8eb4) — 3/30/2023 @ 5:19 pmJoe Tacopina may have conflict of interest as he claimed Stormy Daniels was a client in 2018.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 3/30/2023 @ 5:19 pmmore than 30 counts related to business fraud
Some of which won’t get past opening motions.
Kevin M (1ea396) — 3/30/2023 @ 5:19 pmDeSantia saying he will not cooperate with extradition. Of course.
Patterico (8d8eb4) — 3/30/2023 @ 5:20 pmKevin M, he’s got your argument.
But really, this indictment had reasonable doubt written all over it. Maybe there’s something unexpected.
Kevin M (1ea396) — 3/30/2023 @ 5:21 pmDeSantis saying he will not cooperate with extradition. Of course.
Noted above, but also that Trump is going to appear in NY voluntarily. He can’t hide in Florida and campaign.
Kevin M (1ea396) — 3/30/2023 @ 5:22 pmThis complicates DeSantis’ announcement.
Kevin M (1ea396) — 3/30/2023 @ 5:24 pmWhy not? Biden hid in his basement for his campaign against Trump and won.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 3/30/2023 @ 5:25 pmTancopina Is now saying that there is “a complete lack of basis” for any of this.
Trump, never one to let a crisis go to waste, is already fundraising off the indictment announcement:
Dana (1225fc) — 3/30/2023 @ 5:26 pmBut Biden has the press on his side. Trump probably doesn’t.
Kevin M (1ea396) — 3/30/2023 @ 5:26 pmA far more important legal case was decided today.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 3/30/2023 @ 5:26 pmalready fundraising off the indictment announcement
Clinton fundraised off his impeachment.
Kevin M (1ea396) — 3/30/2023 @ 5:27 pmThe grand jury testimony of David Pecker
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 3/30/2023 @ 4:34 pm
Irony alert
norcal (7b2be1) — 3/30/2023 @ 5:33 pmI would hate to go through life with that last name, but it fits him.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 3/30/2023 @ 5:35 pm… and dead, ‘unindicted co-conspirator’ Dick Nixon smiled.
DCSCA (47faee) — 3/30/2023 @ 5:35 pmYou mean “sh!thole” countries like France, South Korea, Taiwan, Italy and Israel that have prosecuted (and jailed) their former leaders?
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 3/30/2023 @ 5:14 pm
no, sh!thole has a real meaning
try countries that have prosecuted and jailed opposition party candidates, like Russia, Myanmar and Iran to name just a few
if Trump were a former leader who served his two terms, absolutely no one would care about this case or novel legal shenanigans to keep the wheels on
JF (e68188) — 3/30/2023 @ 5:36 pmHe can’t hide in Florida and campaign.
I’ll be interested in the conditions of his pre-trial release (bail), regarding both place of residence and travel.
nk (5aaf45) — 3/30/2023 @ 5:36 pmI’m sure it will be OR with no conditions, except may be surrendering his passport.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 3/30/2023 @ 5:41 pmCongratulations, we’re just like any other sh!thole country now.
JF (e68188) — 3/30/2023 @ 5:02 pm
You’re a bit late to the party. That description applied starting January 6, 2021.
norcal (7b2be1) — 3/30/2023 @ 5:41 pmIf Bragg were a mean, vicious, and vindictive person, he would ask for a dangerousness hearing with the photo of Trump wielding a baseball bat against him as Exhibit 1.
(A dangerousness hearing means no pre-trial release.)
nk (5aaf45) — 3/30/2023 @ 5:42 pmI don’t see how following through on this would mean that he was being vicious, and vindictive. After all, threatening a NY prosecutor *is* a crime.
Dana (1225fc) — 3/30/2023 @ 5:50 pmI was being a little i-Ron-ic.
nk (5aaf45) — 3/30/2023 @ 5:56 pmI was being a little i-Ron-ic.
nk (5aaf45) — 3/30/2023 @ 5:56 pm
Why don’t you stop being so funny, so that others have a prayer of catching up?
norcal (7b2be1) — 3/30/2023 @ 5:59 pmAh. Got it.
Dana (1225fc) — 3/30/2023 @ 5:59 pmIt’s so effortless, its hard to stop
steveg (f162e8) — 3/30/2023 @ 6:04 pm#120
I can’t imagine a more Presidential image than Trump cowering in Mar A Lago under the Florida Governor’s protection. It’s not a great look for the Donald, so I think he’ll present himself for trial.
By the way, rumor is 30 plus counts — that would be more than Stormy.
Appalled (32e8e5) — 3/30/2023 @ 6:11 pmCertainly more than Hunter…
Dana (1225fc) — 3/30/2023 @ 6:19 pmHow many here were upset with the indictment of the chicago 8 on trumped up charges or even worse trumped up charges so the police could kill fred hampton and mark clark. What goes around comes around! That was wrong and trumps indictment on a misdemeanor trumped up to a felony is just as wrong and is prosecutorial misconduct.
asset (753128) — 3/30/2023 @ 6:19 pmBut Biden has the press on his side. Trump probably doesn’t.
Don’t kid yourself. If it generates heat, not light; if it generates sparks, draws eyeballs, clicks, ratings and revenue- as it did in 2016- it can. Only thing is, w/his Boeing 757, rally lover Donald isn’t a stay-put bunker man [bunko perhaps.] But politicizing the justice system at this level sucks the air out of the sails of the other campaigns for months and likely assures he’ll get the GOP nom. Darling Nikki and even undeclared DeSantis is left awash in the wake. The way to beat him was w/better candidates and at the ballot box. All this will do is feed populism and embolden it all the more.
DCSCA (09ab05) — 3/30/2023 @ 6:20 pmTrump is reportedly planning to turn himself in on Tuesday. Does he like Tuesdays for arrests? It is the day before the day before Passover, by the way.
This reportedly took Trump – and everyone else – by surprise.
Sammy Finkelman (56c301) — 3/30/2023 @ 6:23 pm@ 136
Joe (978bb7) — 3/30/2023 @ 6:24 pmThat’s the problem, i think we are just beginning to realize how long the game has been stacked against us.
And I have a response to the “we” in moderation.
Trump issued a statement in which he criticized Bragg for not prosecuting the right things – and said he was doing Biden’s dirty work.
Sammy Finkelman (56c301) — 3/30/2023 @ 6:25 pmObama is in Australia – went at Trump. DeSantis said Florida would not help. Biden has yet to say anything.
One note of caution. The indictment is still sealed. Nobody knows what legal theory Bragg might have.
Sammy Finkelman (56c301) — 3/30/2023 @ 6:29 pmShame on DeSantis and Haley for their mealy-mouthed statements. Somebody needs to call a spade a spade.
norcal (7b2be1) — 3/30/2023 @ 6:33 pm*shrug* as far as I can tell, he pretty much got himself indicted deliberately. He doesn’t seem to have even tried to get a deal where he could apologize and pay his fine and go on his way like everyone else with campaign finance irregularities seems to do and he’s been baiting the prosecutor and ginning up controversy about it for months. If he did an illegal thing, he should pay for it even if he’s a former president. If he didn’t, he shouldn’t, even if he’s a dickhead. I don’t personally care much about these charges either way
Nic (896fdf) — 3/30/2023 @ 6:38 pmDeSantis was once again making a self-interested political calculation and trying to show MAGAland that he’s a tough guy like Trump. And his ridiculous statement demonstrates that he considers himself above the Rule of Law. What a dolt.
Dana (1225fc) — 3/30/2023 @ 6:39 pmAlthough, to be fair to DeSantis and Haley, they’re just humoring the primary voters. With any luck, there will be a change in voter attitudes. Good leaders help nudge that change, rather than follow it.
norcal (7b2be1) — 3/30/2023 @ 6:41 pmHowever, politicians can only get ahead of the voters so far, beyond which it’s a suicide mission.
norcal (7b2be1) — 3/30/2023 @ 6:44 pmWell, the people elected a sh-thole person, so…
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 3/30/2023 @ 6:57 pmMaybe Putin can negotiate a prisoner swap, where he gets Trump in exchange for that American WSJ journalist.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 3/30/2023 @ 7:03 pmWhat insurrection?
The one that happened today in Nashville?
NJRob (eb56c3) — 3/30/2023 @ 7:41 pmSammy, Kevin and I touched on the Statute of Limitstions recently in another thread. It appears this New York case is on point. It involves tolling limitations when a defendant is not a resident of the State (as Trump has not been a resident of New York). In brief, it requires an analysis of whether a defendant is or is not continuously in the State.
The New York limitations period is apparently 5 years after an offense, unless it is tolled, except for the most serious offenses.
The discussion was whether Trump could claim a defense based on limitations. But it occurred to me that the prosecution may be moving forward now because of limitations issues. For all those who think this is a bad case to try now, the prosecutor may not have the ability to wait any longer.
DRJ (0abb72) — 3/30/2023 @ 7:54 pm@62. ‘More than 6 in 10 Americans (62 percent) think the Manhattan District Attorney’s case involving former President Donald Trump is mainly motivated by politics, while 32 percent think the case is mainly motivated by the law.’ – https://poll.qu.edu/poll-release?releaseid=3870
DCSCA (f88f5d) — 3/30/2023 @ 7:58 pm^69.
DCSCA (f88f5d) — 3/30/2023 @ 7:59 pmThe local news angle is always interesting: “Queens Man Indicted”
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 3/30/2023 @ 8:07 pmexcept may be surrendering his passport.
Good God, why?
Kevin M (1ea396) — 3/30/2023 @ 8:17 pmSammy, Kevin and I touched on the Statute of Limitstions recently in another thread. It appears this New York case is on point.
Yes, I read that. They decide that, since there is no actual definition of “continuous” they will define it as “piecewise total.”
Kevin M (1ea396) — 3/30/2023 @ 8:22 pmI guess the walls have finally closed in, right Haiku?
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 3/30/2023 @ 8:30 pmYes, I recall your disdain for that case, Kevin.
DRJ (f3fbf5) — 3/30/2023 @ 8:32 pmAnd for comments, too.
DRJ (f3fbf5) — 3/30/2023 @ 8:32 pmRobert Costa…
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 3/30/2023 @ 8:58 pm@164. I guess the walls have finally closed in, right Haiku?
Don’t be surprised if by next weekend there will be autographed posters of ‘The Trump Mug Shot” available to hang on those walls sold for $500 each as campaign fund raisers. It’ll be on everything from coffee mugs to t-shirts– anything you can think of, to raise $.
DCSCA (746e1c) — 3/30/2023 @ 8:59 pmI think you are enjoying mocking lawyers, Kevin, and don’t really care about limitations, tolling or continuous. But for those who do, this is the relevant part of the opinion:
IMO the test is how difficult it is to apprehend someone who resides out of state but occasionally visits. While Trump’s location was known, it was impossible to apprehend Trump while he was President and protected by the Secret Service.
DRJ (0abb72) — 3/30/2023 @ 9:09 pmYes, I recall your disdain for that case, Kevin.
I think that saying that this is the kind of thing that leaves laymen distrustful of courts and lawyers and reduces respect for the Rule of Law will offend you, and I’m sorry that is so.
Kevin M (1ea396) — 3/30/2023 @ 10:54 pmIt is not necessary for a defendant to be “apprehended” in order to stop the limitations from running. He only needs to be indicted. That it takes some additional time to gain custody of the defendant doesn’t matter. In the case of the President, maybe you have to wait until his term completes, but no tolling is needed once you indict.
Kevin M (1ea396) — 3/30/2023 @ 10:59 pmThe Washington Post editorial:
The Trump indictment is a poor test case for prosecuting a former president
Kevin M (1ea396) — 3/30/2023 @ 11:19 pmAs they say, too good to check…
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 3/30/2023 @ 11:38 pmThis makes everybody involved look bad. This is the kind of slimy stuff that was done to my side for many years. It was wrong then for prosecutors to go after political opponents like eugene debs, anti-war protesters and the hollywood ten and it is wrong for prosecutors to do it now even when I don’t like trump.
asset (753128) — 3/31/2023 @ 12:05 am@Kevin.
You, I, and now the Washington Post all agree that for anyone who opposes Donald Trump, this case is a political loser. Where you lose me is your apparent opinion that a politically flawed case is one that should never be brought. I care that it may help Trump’s political fortunes. Believe me I care. But I’m also a firm believer that it’s not OK to burn the village to save it, and the village in this example is the rule of law. The rule of law is what Trump endangers, and the rule of law is what we have to follow in keeping him at bay.
So as perilous and disturbing as may be to do anything that gives Trump a political leg up, the only legitimate question is, what does the rule of law require? And the answer is that Trump be treated like anyone else would in his circumstances. Not above the law and not singled out by it. Which in turn raises the question, is this a case Bragg would bring against a random citizen not named Donald Trump? If so, he should bring it against Trump. If not, he shouldn’t. Obviously none of us have seen the indictment, so it’s too soon to speculate intelligently as to the answer (not that it will stop people on both sides from asserting with absolute certainty that “of course he would” and “you know he wouldn’t,” but that is the question.
lurker (cd7cd4) — 3/31/2023 @ 12:13 amHardly a day passes that I don’t lament the loss of the comment preview function.
lurker (cd7cd4) — 3/31/2023 @ 12:15 amObviously none of us have seen the indictment, so it’s too soon to speculate intelligently as to the answer (not that it will stop people on both sides from asserting with absolute certainty that “of course he would” and “you know he wouldn’t,” but that is the question.
lurker (cd7cd4) — 3/31/2023 @ 12:13 am
Alas, all too many people in this world are filled with absolute certainty, from politics to the law to religion.
norcal (7b2be1) — 3/31/2023 @ 12:18 amThe purpose of tolling statutes is to avoid situations where people are indicted who are not able to be served with process. I understand the New York tolling case law bothers you. I am not defending or criticizing it, only trying to understand how it works.
Tolling is a technical issue impacted by Constitutional/due process law. It varies in different states/jurisdictions. It would be great if every legal issue were simple for lawyers and laymen to understand, and I mean that. Society works better when laws are clear and understandable, but life doesn’t always work that way as we all know if we have medical, accounting, or engineering issues to deal with.
DRJ (0abb72) — 3/31/2023 @ 1:13 amI strongly agree with your comment 175, lurker. Thank you for writing it.
DRJ (0abb72) — 3/31/2023 @ 1:16 amGood for DeSantis, Haley and McCarthy.
NJRob (eb56c3) — 3/31/2023 @ 3:52 amHahahaha. No one above the rule of law.
Clinton, Obama, Biden, their families and affiliates (FBI destroying Clinton phones while granting immunity), Epstein’s client list, stc.
What a joke.
NJRob (eb56c3) — 3/31/2023 @ 3:59 amWe are assuming that the indictment is just about hush money to Stormy. The Stormy case can’t generate 30 plus counts in the indictment.
So, I’m not commenting on whether this case is worth it until the indictments are released.
Appalled (968b8a) — 3/31/2023 @ 4:17 am“Fight’s commenced! Get to fightin’ or get away.”
nk (bb1548) — 3/31/2023 @ 4:32 amThere is a saying that goes something like this:
Now hear me out. The rule of law is not a “bad law” to those who revere the law, but a bad law to those who do not wish to be ruled by it. But enforcing the law, selectively, creates the needed injustice of favoritism where “one side always gets away with it” so that the weak adherents to the law – sour on it, and may be driven to abandon it and to adopt the mindset of the anarchist. It is the joke to which NJRob points. That is the bad [practice of] law that must be enforced in order to get rid of the rule of law.
Getting the “backs up” of Trumps supporters is not a bug, but a feature to those who need the chaos that might follow in order to make good use of yet another crisis – Constitutional or not.
Yes, it is irony to enforce the law in such a way as to get people to stop trusting the rule of law, but half of the country’s trust on the voting process has been successfully destroyed in this way already.
The tactic is clear: Destroy trust.
There is a clearer, way to state this, but I have lost too much of my mind to bring the words to bear. I accept that my shelf life has expired. I await the hand of the great grocer in the sky to toss me out of the fridge.
felipe (77b190) — 3/31/2023 @ 4:45 amWe got this orange Putin puppet going around for years, badmouthing our government, badmouthing our elections, badmouthing our institutions, badmouthing just about everything, even our strippers. Anybody got one quote of him saying something good about America?
nk (bb1548) — 3/31/2023 @ 4:47 am@ 185
Joe (978bb7) — 3/31/2023 @ 4:55 amProsecutorial discretion.
That’s Trump, felipe. All on Trump.
Me, I don’t need chaos. I’m laughing at the Fifth Horseman who will ride to the FINAL BATTLE with bone spurs.
nk (bb1548) — 3/31/2023 @ 5:06 amJoe, your comment in moderation has put the comment numbering in your browser ahead by one. felipe’s comment @ 4:45 am is 184 not 185.
nk (bb1548) — 3/31/2023 @ 5:10 am@ nk (bb1548) — 3/31/2023 @ 5:10 am
Thank you for the heads up about that.
Sorry for confusion and or any disruption.
Hope everyone’s day is excellent.
Joe (978bb7) — 3/31/2023 @ 5:39 am161. Re: “Queens Man Indicted”
It’s really former Queens man. Donald Trump hasn’t lived in Queens since he built and moved into Trump Tower in 1983. Address: 721 Fifth Avenue,”
He declared himself a resident of Palm Beach County, Florida, in September, 2020.
New York State may still have tried to consider him a resident:
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/01/nyregion/trump-florida-move-taxes.html
If New York Sate can have it both ways – then maybe Donald Trump can have the value oof his properties both ways – in case he’s been indicted for that, too. But oprobably its distinguiahable.
Andrew Cuomo also used to live in Queens.
Sammy Finkelman (b434ee) — 3/31/2023 @ 5:55 amYou’re welcome, Joe.
nk (bb1548) — 3/31/2023 @ 5:57 amCorrection: He declared himself a resident of Palm Beach County, Florida, in September, 2019.
Sammy Finkelman (b434ee) — 3/31/2023 @ 5:59 am185. nk (bb1548) — 3/31/2023 @ 4:47 am
Maybe this:
https://trumpwhitehouse.archives.gov/briefings-statements/remarks-president-trump-farewell-address-nation/
Sammy Finkelman (b434ee) — 3/31/2023 @ 6:17 amAppalled (968b8a) — 3/31/2023 @ 4:17 am
And District Attorney Alvin Bragg hinted in his letter to the Congressional Committee that it could be about other things.
But recent witnesses Michael Cohen, David Pecker, Strmy Daniels, andd Robert Costello have presumably been about the $130,00 – well Davvvid Pecker is about all the other women.
I can’t see 30 counts associated with Stormy Daniels but I can see 15 – because 12 separate payments were ade – no 13 – were paid. Now in some cases money may have been distributed to Donald Trump by his corporation and then Trump wrote out a check.
Trump’s lawyers will characterize all that as consensual overbilling.
Only reasonable thing t do.
Sammy Finkelman (b434ee) — 3/31/2023 @ 6:26 amThank you, Sammy. That whole speech is astonishingly gracious. I had not seen it before.
nk (bb1548) — 3/31/2023 @ 6:28 amnk (bb1548) — 3/31/2023 @ 5:06 am
This has to be my favorite nevertrump slogan. And it’s not like it isn’t tried and true. The old “what I’m doing is your fault” fan favorite.
We were forced to torch the village to save it from communists. We wouldn’t need to unleash the dogs and fire hoses on these protesters if they weren’t here. Stalin wouldn’t have needed to steal all of the food from the farmers if they’d just given it to him.
For nevertrump it’s always been some version of by any means necessary because we’ve got to defend The Norms ™.
The newest one is trans people killing little kids because of oppression.
I’m impressed, but not surprised, by the power of transference and projection.
frosty (9aab17) — 3/31/2023 @ 6:31 amlurker (cd7cd4) — 3/31/2023 @ 12:13 am
Not the business (weisselberg) case, if that’s what he brought, because other real estate developers used two evaluations — but perhaps Trump went further, and he made a few patently wrong claims to anks.\\The business records case is tied in withh campaign finance violations and it’s only being brought because Michael Cohen had stated that in an attempt to reduce his sentence. And it’s a unique case. A unique set if facts – which are also in dispute, and posit something highly unlikely – that Trump would expect Michael Cohen to lay out an enormous sum of money (for MC)
It’s also highly improbable that MC would do this on his own.
Obviously, some essential fact is missing.
Maybe MC had lied to DT about how little it would take to quiet Stormy Daniels and he felt trapped by his lies.
Maybe…
MC negotiated an agreement for $130,000 and Trump wouldn’t pay the $130,000 when MC told him the figure.. And MC keeps pushing her off, and then Stephanie Clifford aka Stormy Daniels was starting to market her story again AND THEN MC SIGNS A SECOND AGREEMENT with Stormy Daniels.
And then Michael Cohen makes a last ditch effort to persuade Donald Trump, and when he failed, he went ahead with it on his own to try to salvage his relationship with DT.
Then he asks David Pecker to speak up for him to Donald Trump that he should reimburse the money. And he begins asking himself two months later.
And eventually, Trump agrees.
Of course you could say maybe Trump did agree in advance to reimburse Michael Cohen (3×4 times to leave him with no tax consequences!) but tried to get out of it.
\But why didn’t MC tape any agreement he had with DT for him to be reimbursed?
Sammy Finkelman (b434ee) — 3/31/2023 @ 6:57 amWe were forced to torch the village to save it from communists. We wouldn’t need to unleash the dogs and fire hoses on these protesters if they weren’t here. Stalin wouldn’t have needed to steal all of the food from the farmers if they’d just given it to him.
You left out Trump had to shtup Stormy Daniels and Karen McDougal and concoct an elaborate money-laundering scheme to pay them off.
nk (bb1548) — 3/31/2023 @ 6:59 amAnyone else remember when nevertrump was caterwauling on about how DT said he could shoot someone in public and he’d still get votes? And also the caterwauling about him being right because his voters were deluded cultists?
Anyone else notice that now the caterwauling is about how something with a porn star would have lost him votes and he had to concoct an elaborate scheme to cover it up?
Now, the obvious question is does nevertrump actually believe these two contradictory concepts?
frosty (d09065) — 3/31/2023 @ 7:22 amTen years later. \
It wss Michael Cohen who wanted an elaborate money laundering scheme to reimburse the National Enquirer. Donald Trump just wanted to write them a check. Now it was a problem for the National Enquirer since they never had had any intention of hiring Karen McDougal as a columnist and all the other things they promised her.\
Michael Cohen tapes a conversation with Donald Trump in which MCC said not to write a check Donald Trump ws willing to buy the entire file of stories about Donald Trump that the National Enquirer had captured and put in a vault on the grounds that Daid Pecker might hypothetically be hit by a truck and the Enquirer change its policy.
\This would be after the election of course.
The Enquirer was never paid off probably because its lawyers determined that that wouldn’t save them from breaking the law.
Sammy Finkelman (b434ee) — 3/31/2023 @ 7:23 amfrosty (d09065) — 3/31/2023 @ 7:22 am
The contradictory concepts are about what Trump believed, not even about political reality. \
But this can be resolved by saying that Trump didn’t believe anything (including shooting someone on 5th Avenue) could cost him votes in the Republican primary, but even something trivial could cost him votes in the general election.
But I think Trump did not believe that disclosure of his connection ip with two women could cost him votes (not with his record, and also because it was ten years in the past)
Trump has also said he didn’t believe that postponing the Covid vaccine cost him (the election) “October Surprise” accusation for real.
He didn’t want to use it.
Of course, it helps that so many of his supporters are anti-vaxxers. Hus “cultists” boo him when he talks about getting the vaccine.
Sammy Finkelman (b434ee) — 3/31/2023 @ 7:37 amWell said, Sammy.
DRJ (0abb72) — 3/31/2023 @ 7:43 amWho’s caterwauling? Trump thought Alvin Bragg was another boogeyman he could imagine up and imagine away, meanwhile raking it in from his followers who took him seriously, but Bragg turned out to be real. He called Trump’s bluff and made him ante up.
nk (bb1548) — 3/31/2023 @ 7:48 amSo…why don’t we simply support candidates who aren’t pond scum? Instead of deciding that The Other Guys are so awful we will support pond scum…
Simon Jester (c8876d) — 3/31/2023 @ 7:50 amAnd I fully appreciate what I wrote is an insult to pond scum.
Simon Jester (c8876d) — 3/31/2023 @ 7:50 amSimon,
I think a lot of Republicans strongly believed we needed to dramatically change the narrative in America based on the changes Democrats had made, and Trump did that with immigration, abortion, etc. I also think today’s Republicans are correct that the prior leaders would not have changed things the way Trump has. They accept the good and the bad with Trump because he did things no one else would do.
I think we need to acknowledge that because I think it is why he has supporters. It is also why DeSantis is willing to take on groups like Disney in a way that prior GOP leaders never would.
DRJ (0abb72) — 3/31/2023 @ 8:31 amI don’t know why you’re ascribing that to NeverTrump, frosty. That thought never entered NeverTrump Montagu’s mind. I also object to your “by any means necessary” smear; there may be some unprincipled NeverTrumpers who have that mentality, but it’s an invidious overgeneralization.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 3/31/2023 @ 8:37 amI respect many people who support Trump because they want things they think will make America better, but not everyone is so well-meaning (on either side of the GOP divide). Frankly, frosty, I don’t think you deserve respect because you are so callous to people who disagree with you.
DRJ (0abb72) — 3/31/2023 @ 8:42 amI have to agree with the interpretation of DRJ (0abb72) — 3/31/2023 @ 8:31 am
Joe (978bb7) — 3/31/2023 @ 8:43 amIf a JEB! took the same approach, trump wound never have made it.
DRJ (0abb72) — 3/31/2023 @ 8:42 am
This is basically my point in frosty (9aab17) — 3/31/2023 @ 6:31 am.
How am I callous?
frosty (d09065) — 3/31/2023 @ 8:59 amRegarding selective enforcement, it’s only selective in that a former President has never been indicted before. Otherwise……
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 3/31/2023 @ 9:01 amPaul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 3/31/2023 @ 8:37 am
Because I’ve been paying attention. This isn’t new. And I don’t ascribe it to just nevertrump. The funny part is that if the last 6-7 years doesn’t have enough evidence it’s right there in the name.
Yes, as long as there’s some other group of unprincipled nevertrumpers that can be cited the honest and sincere ones who’ve bought into and played along with every single over-hyped and over-played invidious over generalization since DT walked down the elevator are off the hook. The funny part about that is that I was willing to agree to that when I thought nevertrumpers were willing to actually extend that same courtesy to people who disagreed with them. But this is a mirage. The list of things nevertrump thinks it’s impossible for honest and sincere people to be on the other side of isn’t short. That might even be another way to view the defining characteristics of being nevertrump.
frosty (d09065) — 3/31/2023 @ 9:20 amWhich in turn raises the question, is this a case Bragg would bring against a random citizen not named Donald Trump? If so, he should bring it against Trump.
I would be interested to know how many politicians the NYC DA has indicted over the past decade. I know the Feds have been busy, but NYC?
Kevin M (1ea396) — 3/31/2023 @ 9:25 amWe are assuming that the indictment is just about hush money to Stormy. The Stormy case can’t generate 30 plus counts in the indictment.
So, I’m not commenting on whether this case is worth it until the indictments are released.
This is an excellent point. We only know (or expect) the kind of thing that we’ve been talking about for the last week. Maybe there’s something more concrete, like bribing a judge. Or maybe it’s 25 minor counts piled onto 5 more solid charges. I doubt it is 30 felonies.
But we’ll see.
Kevin M (1ea396) — 3/31/2023 @ 9:30 amThere is only one side to the peaceful transfer of power.
As for “by any means necessary”, you don’t need a cannon to squash a bug. We can rid ourselves of the loathsome orange tick without comprising our principles, violating our laws, or subverting our institutions.
nk (bb1548) — 3/31/2023 @ 9:32 amGood for DeSantis, Haley and McCarthy.
Haley mainly attacked it as a distraction, continuing her fence-straddling. The other two were far stronger in their denunciation.
Kevin M (1ea396) — 3/31/2023 @ 9:32 amYou address views/people you disagree with using hostile, derogatory, or unkind descriptions that paint a very negative picture of those views/people, frosty. It isn’t necessary to the argument but apparently it is something you need to di.
DRJ (0abb72) — 3/31/2023 @ 9:37 amI suspect it is claims brought against Weissellberg and the Trump Organization. They have been talking to Weisselberg enough that he changed attorneys (and Trump is still paying for it) , so the prior attorney may have been telling Weisselberg to turn on Trump but he wouldn’t.
This is why Trump is do mad at the judge assigned here, but he was assigned because he already knows the facts.
DRJ (0abb72) — 3/31/2023 @ 9:41 amSo…why don’t we simply support candidates who aren’t pond scum? Instead of deciding that The Other Guys are so awful we will support pond scum…
Scum rises to the top? But we usually don’t. Even the worst person the GOP ran in the last 50 years (Dole) wasn’t pond scum.
This time, I’m supporting Nikki Haley who has faults, sure, but is not pond scum. DeSantis might not be either, but it’s less easy to tell.
Kevin M (1ea396) — 3/31/2023 @ 9:41 am* worst person the GOP ran
Not counting you-know-who
Kevin M (1ea396) — 3/31/2023 @ 9:42 amI think we need to acknowledge that because I think it is why he has supporters.
It is sad that the rest of the GOP could not respond to the situation in 2016 or earlier. That it took this intemperate man to force the change should be embarrassing.
Kevin M (1ea396) — 3/31/2023 @ 9:46 amDisney Outmaneuvers DeSantis in Clash Over Theme Park District
Walt Disney Co. pushed through changes limiting the powers of the municipal authority that governs its Florida theme parks ahead of a controversial takeover by representatives of Governor Ron DeSantis.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-03-30/disney-outmaneuvers-desantis-in-clash-over-theme-park-district
DCSCA (0a7df3) — 3/31/2023 @ 9:47 amWeisselberg is facing new charges based on alleged insurance fraud that doesn’t sound like it involved Trump.
He pled guilty to all the original charges:
We may see most or all of those charges filed against Trump.
DRJ (0abb72) — 3/31/2023 @ 9:48 am@218:
DRJ, I hope you understand that when *I* strongly disagree with you or others, it does not mean I don’t respect you or your argument, just that I really don’t agree with it and need to explain my disagreement as sharply as possible.
Sometimes (and this is possibly true of Frosty or others) we forget how limited the interaction here is. There is no body language or facial expressions that would make the same words, f2f, mean rather different things. Not all of us are adept (or always adept) at textual nuances that would convey things normally conveyed by other means.
Of course sometimes an attack is just an attack.
Kevin M (1ea396) — 3/31/2023 @ 9:53 amCruz did it, Kevin, but he was so fake about it. Trump has a unique ability to change positions on things — something 180 degrees — and still make people believe him. That is hard to do, as we see by all the politicians who can’t do it.
DRJ (0abb72) — 3/31/2023 @ 9:53 am@222. But who is “we”??
‘For Republicans, it’s a different story — three-quarters do want Trump to be president again. So Trump remains very popular with the base, but politically toxic with everyone else.’ – source, https://www.npr.org/2023/03/27/1166173049/donald-trump-investigations-republican-voters-2024-presidential-election
DCSCA (0a7df3) — 3/31/2023 @ 9:54 amDRJ #206: I have many relatives in the camp to which you refer. Myself, I have held my nose and voted many times.
What disturbs me so is that if DJT had even a femtogram of self control, he could have really done some good things. Instead, every good thing his administration has done is tainted by his bullying and childish nature.
As with WJC, I will never understand that kind of thing. Such personalities have a hole in their soul that can never be filled.
Always nice to see your posts, DRJ.
Simon Jester (c8876d) — 3/31/2023 @ 9:54 amWeisselberg is facing new charges based on alleged insurance fraud that doesn’t sound like it involved Trump.
Unsurprising. Once the subpoenas flow, there is no telling what turns up. The most serious charges against Cohen had nothing to do with Trump.
Kevin M (1ea396) — 3/31/2023 @ 9:55 amHighlighting two, both are true, features revolving around the indictment.
Trump did this, but people also expect men, women to lie about, and to cover up, everything surrounding their sexual affairs. It is called cheating for a reason, and the cheat is not limited to the person to person contact, it extends to finances. The old unfunny Sothern CA joke is when an affair is uncovered the woman gets plastic surgery while the man hides all the money
Bragg is politically ambitious and this is something that he will use polish his resume with the deeply partisan Democrat base in NY, and Bragg is deep into getting himself a lifelong spot at the Democrat feeding trough
steveg (de371d) — 3/31/2023 @ 9:55 amSimon,
I seldom disagree with you, but Trump’s destruction of the US-China detente has gained widespread support, as has the related effort to rebuild US manufacturing capacity. Go back and listen to Biden’s most recent SotU, and you will hear Donald Trump’s platform more often than not.
Or maybe it’s Dick Gephart’s. Hard to tell.
Kevin M (1ea396) — 3/31/2023 @ 10:00 amThank you, Kevin, but frosty and buduh are the only ones that strike me that way. You certainly don’t. There are plenty of people here who really care about politics but those are the ones who go out of their way to make every criticism sting.
DRJ (0abb72) — 3/31/2023 @ 10:00 amDeSantis is either posturing (more likely) or advocating violating the Constitution; see Puerto Rico v. Branstad (1987).
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 3/31/2023 @ 10:01 amCruz did it, Kevin, but he was so fake about it
After Trump made the stink. And yes, it was fake (and me, too!).
Kevin M (1ea396) — 3/31/2023 @ 10:01 amDeSantis is either posturing
A politician posturing!
Kevin M (1ea396) — 3/31/2023 @ 10:04 amHere is the 25 page original indictment against Weisselberg. He admitted to all counts of the indictment.
DRJ (0abb72) — 3/31/2023 @ 10:12 amBy the way, all counts were felonies according to the last link.
DRJ (0abb72) — 3/31/2023 @ 10:15 amGiven Trump’s tweets, TS posts, and other public statements vilifying and threatening the courts, prosecutors (in NY, Georgia, and DC), plaintiffs suing him in civil court (Jean Carroll), etc. what are the odds that a) the judge in this case will impose a gag order on all parties, and b) a gag order won’t stop Trump from raging?
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 3/31/2023 @ 10:24 am@213. There is a core of ‘nevertrumpers’ who just don’t like the guy, his morals, methods or his attitudes but the broader spectrum are more the elitist ideologues– neocons and such– whose influence has waned or been outright rejected; ‘brushed out of the tail that no longer wags the dog’ by the relentless rise of populism that increasingly controls the GOP. And Trump just happens to be the current standard bearer. Neocon ideologue Bill Kristol is a prime example:
Prominent Never-Trumper Says GOP Voters Should ‘Be Democrats For A While,’ Backs Gretchen Whitmer For President
“We need to defeat the Trump Republicans. And if that means being with the Democrats for a while, that’s fine,” Kristol said.
https://dailycaller.com/2023/03/07/never-trumper-bill-kristol-gop-voters-should-be-democrats-for-a-while-backs-gretchen-whitmer-for-president/
DCSCA (0a7df3) — 3/31/2023 @ 10:31 amHe might. Texas judges bend over backwards for defendants to reduce their appeal issues if they are convicted. But there are places where judges don’t seem to do that, and Msnhattan may be one.
DRJ (0abb72) — 3/31/2023 @ 10:32 amThe Trump Organization and Trump Payroll Co were also guilty in charges similar to Weisselberg’s. So if the DA is charging Trump with counts related to the companies’, Cohen’s and Weisselberg’s offenses, then the Trump charges may not be anything new. Plus it moves this full circle. All the players but Trump have been convicted.
DRJ (0abb72) — 3/31/2023 @ 10:41 amThe question will be, in part, did Trump let his companies, employees, and lawyer defraud him and the taxing authorities for 15 years, or did he direct it?
DRJ (0abb72) — 3/31/2023 @ 10:45 amYou ascribed it to NeverTrump without qualification, frosty, which is a smear. Same goes for your other pathetic paragraph. It’s unhelpful and unconstructive.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 3/31/2023 @ 10:47 amIs this a criticism you would also make against nevertrumpers? Or more specifically some of the other commenters here who do the exact thing you’re ascribing to me?
Is it possible that this has more to do with the positions taken than the manner in which they are taken? Otherwise, I’m not sure why buduh and I are the only ones that make your list.
frosty (d09065) — 3/31/2023 @ 10:57 amWe could have. For various versions of “we”, we didn’t. And so far it’s yet to be seen whether compromising our principles, violating our laws, and subverting our institutions will actually rid ourselves of him.
frosty (d09065) — 3/31/2023 @ 11:03 amCould I be wrong? Of course, but IMO you both are both consistently callous toward those with whom you disagree. I wouldn’t be surprised if Trump supporters feel that way here because Trump has so much opposition, but IMO Patterico has always tried to understand their concerns.
DRJ (0abb72) — 3/31/2023 @ 11:07 amNeed I remind you that I voted for Trump twice? So I am not your target but you seem to include people who criticize Trump.
DRJ (0abb72) — 3/31/2023 @ 11:10 amPathetic? At least you’re not being hostile, derogatory, or unkind.
The rules on this seem so arbitrary. Questioning UKR makes a person pro-Putin. No qualification there. Questioning nevertrump makes a person pro-Trump. No qualification there. Questioning the covid response made a person anti-vax. No qualification there. I forgot the details from your comment but apparently all russians are horrible people. No qualification there. Questioning the J6 narrative makes a person pro-sedition. No qualification there.
It seems ironic that you’re now looking for nuance and qualifications.
frosty (d09065) — 3/31/2023 @ 11:14 amfrosty, you’re once again engaging in invidious overgeneralizations, which I’ll again say is unhelpful and unconstructive, but you do you.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 3/31/2023 @ 11:16 amIf it helps your sense of justice, frosty, I akready told Patterico I am self-deporting for breaking the rule against personal attacks. I am not sorry I did it but there are and should be consequences.
DRJ (0abb72) — 3/31/2023 @ 11:18 amKevin #231—I do think that some of the policies that DJT promoted are good. My issue is that, again, he makes everything he touches radioactive.
And, again, it was not necessary. Being a jackwagon is simply his choice.
“He fights” doesn’t mean “must pay off hookers.”
Simon Jester (c8876d) — 3/31/2023 @ 11:31 amDRJ, I miss you and your comments. Just saying.
Simon Jester (c8876d) — 3/31/2023 @ 11:32 amOur first exchange in this thread was
DRJ (0abb72) — 3/31/2023 @ 8:42 am
where you said I was callous and unworthy of respect but I’m targeting you? You engaged me with an insult and I simply asked you a question in return. What have I said that is even particularly negative towards you?
frosty (d09065) — 3/31/2023 @ 11:33 amIt’s not justice and I don’t think it’s necessary. But I can respect your position.
Another option would be to set an example for the sort of comments you actually want to see more of.
frosty (d09065) — 3/31/2023 @ 11:43 am@88
Um… I didn’t think states could ignore any extradition request. (isn’t there constitutional provisions written about this?)
whembly (d116f3) — 3/31/2023 @ 12:24 pm@88
There it is…
Goes to show, I need to read the whole damn thing before responding.
whembly (d116f3) — 3/31/2023 @ 12:26 pmAll i csn say to that is: This is the perfect time for me to leave.
DRJ (0abb72) — 3/31/2023 @ 12:29 pmI have never been a fan of Dana Milbank, who strikes me as a shallow and lazy partisan, but he does occasionally write something funny:
Tucker Carlon says such payoffs are “ordinary” in corporate America and among celebrities. (He would know more aobut such things than I.)
I suppose we can be grateful that he hasn’t — so far — said they were admirable.
Jim Miller (0e46f9) — 3/31/2023 @ 12:31 pm@233
It’s posturing.
Frankly, I’m not even sure how extraditing an unwilling indictee works between the states. I’m assuming it’s the FL state trouper who would arrest and coordinate with NY state police with the transfer.
However, with Trump, there’s another wrinkle: Namely the Secret Service. They ain’t going to let ANY state officials to “arrest” former Presidents. They’ll provide the escort to comply with the extradition.
…and I think the DeSantis folks knows this, and thus it’s all performative political posturing.
whembly (d116f3) — 3/31/2023 @ 12:44 pm@358 All i csn say to that is: This is the perfect time for me to leave.
DRJ (0abb72) — 3/31/2023 @ 12:29 pm
Please don’t go.
Stay, and let’s all work together to keep this place hopping with interesting debates.
whembly (d116f3) — 3/31/2023 @ 12:45 pmDRJ,
You’re a valued member of the community. I just wish you’d look at frosty’s posiiton from jis POV and look a but more jaded at the moby’s here that share glee at the opposition within Republicans as they always declare “this is not the hill to die on” as they always give the “conservative case” for support8ng leftism.
NJRob (e7b892) — 3/31/2023 @ 1:42 pmPlease don’t go, DRJ. We need your comments, but I understand your reason and I admire you for it.
felipe (77b190) — 3/31/2023 @ 2:01 pmYou are absolutely right about Trump, nk. But it is not all on Trump. Name a politician in whom you have trust. I cannot think of one.
felipe (77b190) — 3/31/2023 @ 2:14 pmDRJ has been a breath of fresh air. I hope she sticks around.
By the way, as a one-time Trump voter (2016), I’m happy to be ensconced between Patterico and DRJ. 😁
norcal (7b2be1) — 3/31/2023 @ 2:18 pmTrump has agreed to an arrest on Tuesday:
https://www.newser.com/story/333442/trump-agrees-to-arrest-terms.html
This did take Trump by surprise. And I think he ramped up his attacks against Bragg at the end of last week when it looked like an indictment wasn’t coming.
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 3/31/2023 @ 2:36 pm243.
I think the Trump Organization must be a pass through corporation.
You saw the picture of him with his tax return? It’;s all pass through corporations. Hundreds of them.
It;s all after tax income.
The thing not to do is deduct any inflated fees by Michael Cohen as a business expense.
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 3/31/2023 @ 2:41 pmNorcal, I only voted for Trump once, in 2020. I still have a perfect voting record of 0 – xx. No candidate has ever gotten my vote and become President. Heads up, I’m voting Republican no matter what in 2024. Trump will go third party and the Dems take the WH again.
felipe (77b190) — 3/31/2023 @ 2:42 pmSammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 3/31/2023 @ 2:36 pm
Here’s hoping the SS and NY officers are on their toes. We don’t need another Oswald situation.
frosty (d09065) — 3/31/2023 @ 2:42 pm249. frosty (d09065) — 3/31/2023 @ 11:14 am
Objectively, as Whittaker Chambers said the Communists used to say.
Sammy Finkelman (02a146) — 3/31/2023 @ 2:43 pmPatterico doesn’t prescribe removal for rule violations.
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 3/31/2023 @ 2:44 pmfrosty (d09065) — 3/31/2023 @ 2:42 pm
This is where Trump’s decision to let the Clintons “slide” will pay off.
felipe (77b190) — 3/31/2023 @ 2:48 pmThe enthusiasm found here for one party rule is both amusing and revealing.
Colonel Haiku (0b5b08) — 3/31/2023 @ 2:55 pmFirst, my wife, who just read this over my shoulder, has instructed me to say, “don’t encourage him.” Next, if you’re still around, which I hope you are and will continue to be, coming from you I consider that high praise and you’re more than welcome.
lurker (cd7cd4) — 3/31/2023 @ 3:07 pmYour wife is funny, lurker!
norcal (7b2be1) — 3/31/2023 @ 3:17 pmfelipe (77b190) — 3/31/2023 @ 2:42 pm
Well, nobody’s perfect, felipe. 😛
norcal (7b2be1) — 3/31/2023 @ 3:18 pmMan, when they’ve even lost the RINOs…
Colonel Haiku (99214d) — 3/31/2023 @ 3:28 pmShe is. After I showed her some related comments, previous and subsequent, she also agreed with Rob that I’m a moby. Mind you she doesn’t know what a moby is, but she’s confident I must be one.
lurker (cd7cd4) — 3/31/2023 @ 3:40 pmMind you she doesn’t know what a moby is, but she’s confident I must be one.
lurker (cd7cd4) — 3/31/2023 @ 3:40 pm
🤣
norcal (7b2be1) — 3/31/2023 @ 3:43 pmI come and go but this going is punishment for a personal attack on another commenter. I know the rules and I used to enforce the penalties, and this is the right thing to do. I have never intentionally said negative things about a commenter before (except perhaps DCSCA, but I know he has a lot more to offer than his parents’ 50 year old views). I will do other things for awhile. There is plenty in the news to chew on, plus Patterico’s great analysis that I predict will get more attention now.
DRJ (0abb72) — 3/31/2023 @ 3:55 pmlurker’s wife: I hear you but it was a very good comment.
DRJ (0abb72) — 3/31/2023 @ 3:56 pmI myself have attacked people around here a few times lately. They all had it coming but I was not proud of how I acted. I forgive myself. To the extent you attacked frosty, DRJ, I pronounce that he had it coming and you are forgiven. I find his comments basically worthless partisan trash, combined with a heaping helping of whining. For evidence see: this comment thread. (*waves hands about*) The idea that we’d benefit by preserving that sort of thing and losing someone like you is ridiculous. As I told you privately, your punishment is banishment for zero seconds. Meanwhile I should consider whether it’s really worthwhile having people around who are so partisan that I am tempted continually to tell them what I really think of them.
Patterico (d65a34) — 3/31/2023 @ 6:39 pmFollowed by doubling and tripling down when the absurdly broad-brush nature of this ridiculous claim.
What is gained by allowing such trash in my comment section? Some free speech advocate, make the case, if you can.
Patterico (d65a34) — 3/31/2023 @ 6:44 pmI have always bent over backwards here to allow people to express different points of view. But “all nevertrump is super bad because blah blah” is just not a point of view that provokes good discussion.
You know what? I think I’ve made up my mind. I’m going to moderate you for a bit, frosty, and consider releasing comments that seem like they are designed to get a differing point of view out there, while leaving in moderation the sorts of generalized smears and/or whining that have characterized basically all of your comments in this thread.
If I find I am not releasing any of your comments, I guess I will know where I stand.
Patterico (d65a34) — 3/31/2023 @ 6:52 pmReacting to this decision with efforts to discuss issues without personal attacks would be a constructive response.
Whining about your feels that you are being treated unfairly would not be.
Just a guide for the types of comments I’ll be considering releasing.
Patterico (91224a) — 3/31/2023 @ 6:53 pmMoby defined. Yeah, Rob has smeared me with that one, too, and then he whines about name-calling. Good times.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 4/1/2023 @ 8:42 amThank you for the pardon. I think frosty is a valuable commenter, but I also think he is unnecessarily harsh.
frosty, I will try to write comments that make my point in a kind way. I hope you will do the same.
DRJ (0abb72) — 4/1/2023 @ 9:13 amOf course, there are people online and in life who aren’t about discussion. They want to sow discord or just watch people jump when they snap their fingers. If that is what you are, frosty, stay in moderation.
DRJ (0abb72) — 4/1/2023 @ 9:17 amUm… I didn’t think states could ignore any extradition request. (isn’t there constitutional provisions written about this?)
They have in the past (e.g. Jerry Brown refusing to extradite Dennis Banks to SD), but later the courts ruled they could not do that any more.
Kevin M (1ea396) — 4/1/2023 @ 9:17 amI myself have attacked people around here
We all have bad days.
Kevin M (1ea396) — 4/1/2023 @ 9:27 amFroety did nothing to earn moderation other than be a voice of dissent.
For shame.
NJRob (924846) — 4/1/2023 @ 12:56 pmThat’s a false characterization, NJRob. I don’t like false characterizations. Maybe you would like to be next. Give you a chance to cry about how you are a martyr for the cause. You’d love that, wouldn’t you?
Tell me exactly why he is being moderated and how that is different from mere dissent. If you can’t tell the difference, I don’t want you here.
Patterico (f5d3b4) — 4/1/2023 @ 1:28 pmI want to hear other points of view,NJRob, but I am sick of whining and smears and I am going to start doing something about it.
Patterico (f5d3b4) — 4/1/2023 @ 1:31 pmPatterico,
your trend lately has been to silence dissent. The louder the voice, the quicker you are to silence them. Look back at your recent bans. You think you are being fair or just? Or are you just acting out against people you disagree with and don’t want to read their opinions anymore.
It’s clear you banned frosty because DRJ decided to self-censor. Period.
NJRob (eb56c3) — 4/1/2023 @ 7:16 pmHow about going after the smears of those who tar all those who decide to work within the current party?
NJRob (eb56c3) — 4/1/2023 @ 7:17 pmHe who owns the blog makes the rules.
Rip Murdock (f6813a) — 4/1/2023 @ 7:58 pmThat’s a tortured misreading. He was asking for evidence, and frosty ranted instead.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 4/1/2023 @ 8:20 pmDana’s characterization of frosty was accurate. Too many tortured word games. Try to add more and not be annoying. View your participation through the eyes of your hosts. Trying to give Putin some benefit of the doubt just comes across as obnoxious
AJ_Liberty (4cb472) — 4/1/2023 @ 10:06 pmHere’s a comment from an American who was held hostage by a hostile foreign power.
This is good, too. Reveal this “spy’s” body of work.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 4/1/2023 @ 10:40 pmPatterico explained why he’s moderating frosty, and that ain’t it. Are you saying he lied or that you know his mind better than he does? Either way you’re impugning his motives. You complain that you’re being personally attacked when others criticize your comments, but you’re fine with impugning his motives, which is in fact a personal attack?
lurker (cd7cd4) — 4/2/2023 @ 1:05 am“It’s clear you banned frosty because DRJ decided to self-censor. Period.”
This is Patterico’s blog. You and I do not pay to post here. You are a guest. I analagize this to him inviting you into his home to sit at his counter and discuss politics. In the end, if he tires of you, finds you obnoxious or tedious or feels that you are driving away other readers, then he can remove you temporarily or permanently. It’s probably better to take his criticisms to heart and adapt some. He’s judge, jury, and executioner and it’s probably unwise to critique how he operates his blog.
This blog is better if discussions reflect nuance and contain different viewpoints. But I think Patterico…and many of us…are tired of tedious hyper-partisanship trying to mask as a subtle viewpoint. It offers little nuance or hope of persuasion. Patterico voted for Biden over Trump. He says he will do it again if necessary. You regularly excoriate anyone who didn’t vote for Trump as owning every negative consequence, real or imagined. Can you appreciate how your host might tire of these blanket attacks as if he has not thoroughly outlined his reasoning? At some point it’s just disrespectful. He owes you nothing in this context.
Patterico wants more readers here, including ones like DRJ. You should respect that goal and not antagonize him or Dana.
AJ_Liberty (4cb472) — 4/2/2023 @ 6:21 amBiden has decided not to comment on this case (even to say the justice system should be respected and allowed to work)
Sammy Finkelman (67ff0c) — 4/2/2023 @ 11:51 am