Patterico's Pontifications

2/25/2023

Latvian Delegate to Russian Delegation at U.N.: Go Fuck Yourself

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 10:28 am



This is worth your time. It’s the Latvian delegate to the United Nations, Rihards Kols, standing up for what’s right. It’s wonderful to see.

I believe the context for his initial remarks about the so-called “Ukrainian crisis” was the phony peace plan put out by the Chinese government, in which — in deference to their “no limits” friendship with Putin — they refused to call the war a “war” but instead called it a “crisis.” Mr. Kols forthrightly calls it what it is: a war. He points out that members of the Russian delegation — present to hear this — are the elephant in the room. Some of them voted to annex sovereign lands. He says the U.N. is violating its principles of respecting national sovereignty by even allowing these people to be present. Then he has the Big Closer, which I’ll explain in a moment.

Start the video at about 34 seconds in.

I’ll translate that bit for you at the end. (“русский корабль, иди нахуй.”) Kols is quoting the Ukrainians at Snake Island, who, upon being asked by the Russians to surrender, replied: “Russian warship, go fuck yourself.”

This man is telling the Russian delegation to fuck themselves, to their faces. (No wonder they walked out.)

Watch the smiles of the other delegates as the translator catches up and they realize what he has just said. In fact, the reaction of the other people in the room is one of the most gratifying parts of the clip. A man on the left is nodding as he says the war started in 2014. When he labels the Russians in the room “war criminals” the men behind him start clapping. And the smiles on the faces of several delegates at the end of his expletive-capped rant is the cherry on top of this defiant sundae.

While the partisan shills in parts of the Republican party line up to fellate Putin, the sensible part of the world is together on this. How could you not be? That is, assuming your mind has not been turned to rancid oatmeal by rank partisan bullshit?

Glory to Ukraine.

As for all you Russian shills, иди нахуй.

143 Responses to “Latvian Delegate to Russian Delegation at U.N.: Go Fuck Yourself”

  1. You know who you are.

    Patterico (f405c8)

  2. There are times and places where things are none of my business and even watching what is going on is dangerous. I was in a place where a gang related 6 or 7 on 2 fight/beatdown was going on went in and told the bartender to call 911, went back out and one guy had a knife and was trying to stick a guy who was wrapped up, while the other guy is getting stomped. I yelled hey, that’s enough go! and the kid with the knife ran at me and slashed at me with it and a couple others told me this is none of your business. So I took mental notes in case someone was killed and went to my truck, sat it out. No one was killed but it bothered me. I think some people are wired to respond, others are wired to step away immediately, conscience completely clear, “not my problem”.

    I’m not a fan of USA always being looked to as world police, and am gratified for example when France takes care of business in Mali instead of the US needing to go, but am also proud that my country cares enough to stand up to brutal bullies like Wagner and the Neo-Soviets. I can compartmentalize my distaste for Ukrainians like Vindman, my feelings that Biden probably extorted money from Ukrainians on his sons behalf, and deal with it on the level of human beings needing assistance now. Its not a gray on gray conflict to me because my heart goes out to the everyday Ukrainians who want to get back to their lives. Even if, for example, Biden was to be setting up his son to profiteer off the rebuilding $$$ that are sure to come, would it still be the right thing to help Ukraine fight? my answer would be yes

    steveg (3c2506)

  3. Patterico, thank you for this. I am saddened by the comments I am sure are coming. But at least you started things the correct way: what do we believe in? Are we willing to stand up for those beliefs?

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  4. Latvia joined NATO in 2004:

    Map of USA and NATO military bases in Latvia—

    Latvia: Riga (advanced command and staff cell of NATO); Adazi (multinational battalion of NATO, 1293 people.; unit of the rotational armored brigade of the Armed forces (AF) of the United States); air base (AVB) in Lielvard (unit of the rotational brigade of the US army aviation). Rekonstruiruet military base in p. Lisnave, polygons in the town of Skrunda, Aluksne and Liepaja edges.

    NATO has always paid great attention to the Baltic sea region since the cold war and the Soviet Union, because it is a very important political and industrial center like St. Petersburg, for example, which is of great importance to Russia.
    In the end, it is always, and still is, practiced in the exercises – the shortest way to strike cruise missiles in Moscow is a route such as their launch from bombers over the Norwegian sea through the territory of Norway, Sweden, through the Baltic sea and further in the direction of the administrative centers of the Soviet Union or Russia. Now such things are also being worked out in the exercises.

    Latvia: the most powerful air base

    The NATO multinational battalion group in Latvia, under the leadership of Canada, is stationed in the locality of Kadaga. For its placement, new barracks and hangars were built at the expense of Latvian taxpayers, the entire infrastructure of the military camp and places for conducting combat training classes were updated.

    According to the latest satellite images, several dozen pieces of equipment are visible in the open air, including 14 armored personnel carriers. The “Latvian” battalion includes a canadian mechanized infantry battalion, a Czech grenade launcher unit, an Italian mechanized infantry group with combat vehicles, a Polish tank company, a Slovak mechanized infantry company, a Spanish mechanized infantry company with combat vehicles and tanks, and an infantry unit from Slovenia. In total, there are about 1,400 military personnel.
    Combat aircraft of NATO is located on the airfield in Lielvarde. Google’s images also show an updated runway and Parking lots. On them, not far from the big hangar, there are 8 combat helicopters, one transport and a fighter. According to the latest data, the US is deploying 13 UH-60 and HH-60 Black Hawk helicopters at the airport as part of operation Atlantic Resolve. There are also European fighter jets on duty as part of the NATO police mission in the Baltic States ‘ airspace.

    There are also three Latvian military training grounds near the border with Russia and Belarus, which NATO forces use for exercises. We must not forget that a multinational division “North” will be created in the Baltic States, which is intended to coordinate NATO exercises and help the North Atlantic Alliance troops integrate into the regional armed forces. The division’s headquarters was opened in Adazi on March 8. The division’s headquarters will be subordinate to the NATO North-East corps headquarters located in Szczecin, Poland. It will work simultaneously at the NATO base in Adazi and in Denmark. At the same time, it is emphasized that the headquarters element located in Denmark will be ready for rapid transfer to the Baltic States in the event of a crisis.

    Using Latvia for NATO and US purposes

    Priority is given to the development of the military town of Adazi (Latvia), where the multinational battalion tactical groups of NATO have been deployed on a rotational basis since 2017. Work is underway to increase the capacity of the barracks. New hangars, deep and fortified storage facilities, repair shops, transport infrastructure, and training complexes with means of computer simulation of the situation in the theater of war are being built on the territory of the landfill.
    Currently, at the Lielvard air base (Latvia), work is being completed to prepare the infrastructure for the reception and deployment of multi-purpose fifth-generation fighters, bombers and transport aircraft of the NATO ovvs. Modern three-coordinate radar stations of American production, means of radio engineering and navigation support of flights are put into service.

    https://east-usa.com/us-military-bases-in-latvia.html

    So a proxy ‘FU’ via a UN delegate representing a NATO member to the Russian delegation rather than a bold, direct ‘FU’ from the United States UN ambassador, Linda Thomas-Greenfield. Not quite a ‘waiting until Hell freezes over’ moment a la Adlai Stevenson to Russia’s Zorin in ’62, from Joey’s team, is it. Ahhh, the sweet smell of diplomacy.

    DCSCA (774d88)

  5. While the Soviet Union was a permanent member of the Security Council, the USSR is no more. The Russian Federation was allowed to succeed it in that seat. The General Assembly has the power to reassign that seat, as it did with China’s permanent membership in the 1970s. The UN should therefore declare the seat vacant “as there is no legitimate government that represents the people of the former Soviet Union.”

    FU indeed.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  6. What a great post, Dana! Yes, it is a war started by Invading Russia. I am glad that Ukraine did not “roll over” as I (and the White house) naively suggested a year ago! Now that they are to this point, WE (the U.S. and allies) should step it up for a decisive Ukrainian victory.

    Sure, it is costing a fortune, but money well spent if it is well used. This is a just war being fought by Ukraine that must end by their victory and unconditional removal of Russia from all their lands.

    Admit Ukraine into NATO.

    felipe (77b190)

  7. I’ve seen Lavrov engaging in this kind of rudeness a lot, and for no good reason but that he’s a bully and an a-hole, representing his bully-a$$hole of a leader. As I’ve said from time to time, there’s never bad time to speak truth to power or bad behavior, so salud to Mr. Kols.

    BTW, DC, Latvia voluntarily sought inclusion into this defensive alliance and, like with Estonia, have had a front row seat to Russian belligerence for centuries.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  8. Through 1/15/2023, we’ve provided 44 billion Euro (which is close to parity with the US dollar) in military aid (not FoxNews’ false $196 billion number), which is a bargain considering the damage done to Putin’s military.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  9. Latvia voluntarily sought inclusion into this defensive alliance and, like with Estonia, have had a front row seat to Russian belligerence for centuries.

    And 50 years of Russian occupation.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  10. @7. I’ve seen Lavrov engaging in this kind of rudeness a lot, and for no good reason but that he’s a bully and an a-hole, representing his bully-a$$hole of a leader.

    Those if those are your metrics of leadership, might wanna revisit Dick ‘Daddy Darth’ Cheney:

    Cheney’s “F-bomb” on the Senate floor

    During the annual Senate class photo-op… Vice President Dick Cheney allegedly complained to Democratic Senator Patrick Leahy about the senator’s criticism of no-bid Iraq contracts to Halliburton, Cheney’s former company. Senator Leahy responded by complaining about alleged administration’s smears of Democrats. Cheney then used the “f” word, telling Leahy… “f” yourself. Leahy confirmed that the confrontation took place and said of Cheney, “I think he was just having a bad day.” He added that he was “shocked to hear that kind of language on the floor.” – https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna5297413

    DCSCA (b167d5)

  11. Quoting David Frum (linked in a previous thread), here’s why calls for immediate negotiation are actually a demand that Ukraine capitulate to Russia’s genocidal aggression:

    It’s often claimed that “all wars end in negotiations.” But to date, none of post-Soviet Russia’s many wars have ended that way. Instead, post-Soviet Russia’s wars have tended to freeze into perpetual unresolved conflicts, with Russia retaining chunks of other people’s territory – enduring international opprobrium – and waiting out any ensuing sanctions.

    A reason that post-Soviet Russia’s wars end as “frozen conflicts” is that they have ended on terms more or less satisfactory to Russian leadership. Russian leaders have never seen any need for a more formal resolution that might require some concession to adversaries. If the 2022 invasion of Ukraine were to end today, it would end as another “frozen conflict.” From a Russian point of view, there’d be little to negotiate. They’ve still got Crimea, Donetsk, and Luhansk. They didn’t colonize the rest of Ukraine, but they mauled and terrorized it. The status quo is acceptable enough to post-Soviet Russia. So when prominent people urge negotiations now, they are urging a policy that would award Russia a good-enough win – and leave Ukraine broken and vulnerable to further Russian aggression/pressure.

    What might induce Russia to change its established pattern and -for the first time- negotiate an end to a war that it started? Only one thing: fear that the war is trending in a direction even more unacceptable than any concessions necessary to end the war Russia started. To get to negotiations with Ukraine, Russia needs to genuinely fear that it could lose its war against Ukraine- lose catastrophically enough that negotiations become a less unacceptable alternative to Russia’s leaders. The way to get to negotiations is, therefore, to arm Ukraine to the point where Russian leaders fear defeat. The way to thwart negotiations is to withhold arms from Ukraine and leave Russia’s leaders with hope they can preserve the status quo.

    [Tweet breaks omitted.]

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  12. That is, assuming your mind has not been turned to rancid oatmeal by rank partisan bullshit

    Sadly, that is an apt description of my friend who watches Tuckyo religiously.

    Even when I tell him I don’t want to talk politics, he finds ways of injecting Tuckyo’s latest propaganda into the conversation.

    Trying to help him see things more clearly is futile. He has watched literally thousands of hours of Carlson, and I don’t have the time or energy to de-program him. He is as zealous as any religious extremist out there. He knows the truth, and he’s burning to share it. He is a Tuckerbot.

    We have a great friendship, but ever since Trump ran for President he’s been unbearable when it comes to discussing politics.

    norcal (7345e5)

  13. The Russian view of “peacekeeping” usually involves the death penalty to anyone who dares to protest

    steveg (ffa693)

  14. I just wrote a lengthy comment that I could clearly see had posted in the thread, and then disappeared. What’s going on?

    norcal (7345e5)

  15. Are people allowed to have the opinion that Putin is a warmongering ahole but also that the US should not be sending military aid to the Ukraine, but rather trying to use whatever influence it has left in the world to try get both sides to sit down at the table and negotiate a peaceful end to the war?

    kaf (ca38e9)

  16. kaf,

    Of course you’re allowed that opinion, but pay close attention to David Frum’s explanation at 11.

    The Russian are going to sit down for meaningful negotiation only if they fear losing.

    norcal (7345e5)

  17. Zelenskyy plans to meet Xi Jinping after China proposes Russia peace plan

    ‘A meeting would “benefit our countries and security in the world,” the Ukrainian president said on the first anniversary of the Russian invasion on Friday. As his country’s bitter war with Russia reached the one year-mark, Ukraine’s President Volodymyr Zelenskyy said he wanted to meet with his Chinese counterpart, Xi Jinping, to discuss Beijing’s proposals for ending the conflict.

    “China historically respects our territorial integrity, and it should therefore do everything for Russia to leave the territory of Ukraine,” Zelenskyy told a news conference Friday. He said that he planned to meet with Xi and believed this would “benefit our countries and security in the world.” His comments came after China put forward a 12-point peace plan that called for both sides to agree to a gradual de-escalation, keep nuclear facilities safe, establish humanitarian corridors and prevent attacks on civilian populations.

    “Conflict and war benefit no one. [Unless you’re a DoD/MIC stockholder.] All parties must stay rational and exercise restraint, avoid fanning the flames and aggravating tensions, and prevent the crisis from deteriorating further or even spiraling out of control,” the plan said. It said that “dialogue and negotiation” were the only viable solution. Although it offered no details on what form potential talks could take, it said that China would play a “constructive role” in facilitating negotiations. Zelenskyy said his main goal was ensuring that China had not supplied weapons to Russia, alluding to U.S. allegations last week that China may be providing Russia with nonlethal military assistance, and that it may even be considering sending lethal aid. Beijing has denied this.

    He did not say if a meeting with Xi had been arranged or give any indication of when it might take place. But less than 24 hours after his speech, China’s Foreign Ministry announced that Belarusian President Alexander Lukashenko would visit Beijing later this month.

    A close ally of Russian President Vladimir Putin, Lukashenko, who is often referred to as “Europe’s last dictator,” is beholden to Putin for shoring him up in 2020 after mass protests broke out against a presidential election that the Belarus opposition and Western governments accused the veteran leader of rigging.

    French President Emmanuel Macron [France, a NATO member and U.S. ‘ally’] also said Saturday that he would visit China in early April, in part to seek Beijing’s help with ending the war. Macron has repeatedly called for negotiations between Ukraine and Russia, and is one of the only European Union leaders to have kept up contact with Putin since the war began.

    President Joe Biden and European leaders appeared skeptical about Beijing’s proposals. [In public.] Describing the idea as “just not rational,” Biden told ABC News on Friday that he had “seen nothing in the plan that would indicate that there is something that would be beneficial to anyone other than Russia.”

    Speaking at a news conference in Estonia on Friday, NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg also said that China did not “have much credibility because they have not been able to condemn the illegal invasion of Ukraine.” He added that Xi signed an agreement on a “limitless” partnership between China and Russia days before the invasion of Ukraine in 2022.

    At the same news conference European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen said that European leaders would look at the Chinese principles for peace “against the backdrop that China has already taken sides.” – https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/russia-ukraine-war-china-peace-plan-zelenskyy-xi-jinping-meeting-putin-rcna72317

    And so, in spite of the public skepticism from POTUS Joey and w/$2.5 billion in American taxpayer financed ‘aid’ this week alone from Joe, Z’s goin’ to Xi. Or is this “Churchill” heading to Berchtesgaden, pockets bulging w/free Yankee aid for a chat? Ahhh, the sweet smell of diplomacy.

    … and Larsen E. Whipsnade smiled.

    DCSCA (3e412d)

  18. @15. The Russian are going to sit down for meaningful negotiation only if they fear losing.

    It’s the 21st century; they’ll do what China tells them to do.

    DCSCA (3e412d)

  19. @15. The Russian are going to sit down for meaningful negotiation only if they fear losing.

    It’s the 21st century; they’ll do what China tells them to do.

    DCSCA (3e412d) — 2/25/2023 @ 6:33 pm

    Well, yes. If China comes out against them, they will certainly fear losing.

    It’s the first time in a while I completely agree with you, DCSCA.

    norcal (7345e5)

  20. kaf @14. Without Western aid the disparity in bargaining positions is too great for negotiations, and from the Russians’ point of view foolish to participate in. In fact, if we had not sent Ukraine those tank killers right away, Russia would have had all of Ukraine by May Day 2022. Probably earlier.

    nk (8f058b)

  21. David Frum is a neocon idiot, why should anyone believe anything he has to say?

    kaf (ca38e9)

  22. I mean, I’d accuse norcal of appeal to authority but I’m not sure David Frum is considered an authority about anything.

    kaf (ca38e9)

  23. I mean, it has been a year and Putin hasn’t conquered the Ukraine and we are worried about him beating the USA? Why can’t we stop funding the MIC and start trying to get to the two sides to sit down and stop killing civilians? this is a stupid conflict between two awful governments. At this point, if you are pro sending even more military aid to Ukraine the blood is on your hands.

    I hope the draft comes back and you or your kids get drafted and sent over there and die. Is Zelensky so important that you would send your kids to die for him? because that is where this is going. The tanks weren’t enough so now we are going to send jets. they aren’t enough so we will need to send troops. and then WWIII starts.

    kaf (ca38e9)

  24. Apologies, Patterico! You wrote this post, not Dana. I’ve been conditioned, I guess.

    felipe (77b190)

  25. #23. I was going to point out the irony of criticizing norcal’s alleged appeal to authority (it wasn’t an appeal to authority) with your own ad hominem, until I saw this:

    I hope the draft comes back and you or your kids get drafted and sent over there and die.

    The commenting rules prohibit me from responding candidly to someone who would wish death on the children of people who disagree with him.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  26. I mean, it has been a year and Putin hasn’t conquered the Ukraine and we are worried about him beating the USA? Why can’t we stop funding the MIC and start trying to get to the two sides to sit down and stop killing civilians? this is a stupid conflict between two awful governments. At this point, if you are pro sending even more military aid to Ukraine the blood is on your hands.

    I hope the draft comes back and you or your kids get drafted and sent over there and die. Is Zelensky so important that you would send your kids to die for him? because that is where this is going. The tanks weren’t enough so now we are going to send jets. they aren’t enough so we will need to send troops. and then WWIII starts.

    I support sending more aid to Ukraine.

    Therefore, you hope that my kids or I die.

    Goodbye, kaf. That’s going to do it for you here.

    Patterico (3cd597)

  27. 169 comments left over 12 years here, and I’m just now noticing that this is the sort of fella who wants my kids to die because I hold a more sensible opinion about Ukraine than he does?

    I doubt that. Rather, it’s the Trump virus corrupting another mind.

    Sad! But intolerable.

    Patterico (3cd597)

  28. this is a stupid conflict between two awful governments.

    I cannot talk with someone who says this.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  29. I didn’t get to the rest of it.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  30. When there WAS a draft, and I was of draft age, there was a war that was far less important (or sane) than this one. As it happened, I didn’t get drafted but I refuse to accept this kind of projected cowardice from anyone.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  31. I doubt that. Rather, it’s the Trump virus corrupting another mind.

    Or his TV surrogate.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  32. Speaking at a news conference in Estonia on Friday, NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg also said that China did not “have much credibility because they have not been able to condemn the illegal invasion of Ukraine.” He added that Xi signed an agreement on a “limitless” partnership between China and Russia days before the invasion of Ukraine in 2022.

    Not only that, but I would bet you just about anything that Xi told Putin in no uncertain terms that he had better not invade Ukraine until after China was done hosting the 2022 Winter Olympics. The games ended on February 20; Russia invaded on February 24. You best believe that Putin knew better than to cross Xi.

    JVW (72432b)

  33. It’s not just Latvia who is playing the part of the ex-Soviet satellite state standing strong against Russian aggression. Estonia is also resolute in defiance to Russian bullying. Here’s a great piece in The Spectator:

    At the top of the steps inside the HQ of the Estonian Defense Forces stands a silver sword longer than I am tall. The inscription beneath it reads: “We are not free from the mercy of others but we are free because we fought for it ourselves.” Their commander Major General Veiko-Vello Palm tells me that all too many in the West do not understand the Russian mentality. They do not understand the concept of “win-win,” he says. Either Russia wins or she loses. He and his prime minister argue that Russia must now lose, be seen to lose and accept defeat as Russia did in Afghanistan. Any security “gray area” will lead inevitably to instability if not necessarily to war.

    I like the part about how Russia must lose. If Ukraine decides to negotiate a peace treaty, and if part of that treaty has to involve giving up some of the land that the Russians have annexed, then it needs to be very clear to Putin that the rest of Ukraine will join NATO immediately and that Putin will thereafter have to contend with that which he allegedly invaded Ukraine to avoid: hostile military forces on his front doorstep. After seeing his army humiliated in combat, what exactly can Putin to do about it? Do his forces have any chance of preventing armored divisions from the U.S., Great Britain, France, and others from rolling up within a few kilometers of Russian forward positions? What’s he going to do when NATO sails warships right up into the Chorne Sea within spitting distance of Sevastopol?

    JVW (72432b)

  34. I read this, and was gobsmacked.

    “I hope the draft comes back and you or your kids get drafted and sent over there and die. Is Zelensky so important that you would send your kids to die for him? because that is where this is going.”

    What kind of person would write such a thing, or say such a thing—let alone think such a thing? The answer is: a victim of our weird polarizing culture. And if you spend too much time with folks who see the world the way you do, I think it further polarizes and makes you increasingly over the top, like a positive feedback loop.

    As when someone who hears a disrespectful statement and claims that the statement was “a terrorist act” and “a bomb thrown in our midst.”

    There is a difference between hyperbole and toxicity.

    I am glad to see Patterico enforce his own rules here.

    When I disagree with what Patterico writes, I don’t assume that he is stupid or evil. And not even necessarily wrong. Instead, because Patterico has written things with which I agree, it makes me want to examine my own arguments and thoughts more carefully.

    I hope everyone’s Sunday goes well.

    Simon Jester (0d54cc)

  35. @33. Do his forces have any chance of preventing armored divisions from the U.S., Great Britain, France, and others from rolling up within a few kilometers of Russian forward positions? What’s he going to do when NATO sails warships right up into the Chorne Sea within spitting distance of Sevastopol?

    Russia will do what China tells them to do. They are the weightier half of the Eurasian Alliance. Porous sanctions skirted by nations and firms aside- which Yale keeps track of almost daily- it is China that’s keeping the core of the Russian economy afloat w/oil purchases and sales of various goods and services:

    Chinese brands have replaced iPhones and Hyundai in Russia’s war economy

    ‘Over the past year, hundreds of global brands have fled Russia in response to its invasion of Ukraine. That’s forced Russians to find alternatives for everything from smartphones to cars. The companies benefiting: Chinese competitors. Smartphone giant Xiaomi and automaker Geely are among those that have seen sales surge in recent months, industry data shows. Russians bought a record number of Chinese cars last year, according to data provider Autostat. Chinese new car sales in the country rose 7% in 2022, to 121,800 vehicles, even as the market crashed, it said in a report last month.

    https://www.cnn.com/2023/02/25/business/russia-chinese-brands-sales-surge-ukraine-war-intl-hnk/index.html

    Estonia, as you likely know, joined NATO in 2004:

    Map of locations of US and NATO military bases in Estonia

    Estonia: Tallinn (advanced command and staff cell of NATO); n. p. Tapa (multinational battalion of NATO, 987 people; unit of the rotating armored brigade of the US armed forces); AVB “Emari” (aviation in the framework of the NATO mission to patrol the airspace in the Baltic region – 4 German air force fighters). According to official NATO data, a multinational battalion under the control of the UK is located at a military base in Tapa, which is located 100 kilometers from the border with Russia. The group includes a British armored infantry battalion with more than 20 tanks and 80 combat vehicles, self-propelled guns, and a Danish infantry unit. There are about 900 military personnel in total. In the very near future, about 200 Estonian APCS should be added to them, and on April 23, a unit of 300 soldiers, 5 tanks and a couple of dozen combat vehicles of the French armed forces will arrive. The French must replace the Belgian military personnel, who now have more than 30 combat vehicles.

    Updated Google satellite images show that the military base has about two hundred pieces of heavy equipment on various sites, and three new modular hangars have been installed. In addition, the base can be seen barracks, warehouses and runway.
    The airfield in Emari, where NATO aviation is located, is almost empty. The images show one helicopter and several hangars. There’s also a new runway that the Pentagon paid for. Last year, five German warplanes were stationed at the air base, and just a few days ago, five British air force Apache attack helicopters landed here.

    https://east-usa.com/us-military-bases-in-estonia.html

    The Chinese are positioning themselves to be a superpower peace broker- a purview once chiefly that of the United States for the second half of the 20th century– w/an Euasian alliance and its economic clout in one pocket, and weaponry to give/sell in the other– ‘a walk softly w/big stick’ scenario. There’s a global power shift going on right before our eyes– from balloons sailing over the continental U.S. to peace proposals from a superpower– to the growing list of U.S. firms purchased by China.

    And regardless of any public skepticism from Biden and NATO voices, Z’s already nibbling at it; he rightly wants this to end, and doesn’t care who gets credit for it. But in the larger context of the global superpower shift, Americans should. The images of the costly, humiliating Afghanistan withdrawal remain, as does Biden’s poor assessments on China:

    https://americanmilitarynews.com/2019/05/video-joe-biden-mocks-china-threat-theyre-not-bad-folks/

    Bob Gates’ assessment was correct: “I think he [Biden] has been wrong on nearly every major foreign policy and national security issue over the past four decades.”

    We’ve got a feckless team in charge now– literally from the top down– who at best can only vaguely, reactively respond; no sign- at least publicly- of proactive policy, because any solid counter response will be viewed as an escalation in tension w/Chinese/Russian relations and particularly hard on Americans at street level so deeply dependent on Chinese goods and Russian oil ferreting its way to the open market. And there’s only so much petroleum left to peddled off from the SPR. Afghanistan only affirms the poor pattern of bad decision-making.

    A shift in the global power structure is well underway. After 30 or 40 years or so, we’re now in deep sh-t; it didn’t happen overnight– and we won’t get out of it quickly– but it’s a cinch the aged, old school flag waving Congressional, MIC hugging handwringers w/20th century mindsets and bellicose pundits long nested in both parties won’t lead the way out.

    DCSCA (5f0928)

  36. American Companies You Didn’t Know Were Owned By Chinese Investors

    https://www.madeinamerica.com/chinese-investors/

    DCSCA (5f0928)

  37. I hope the draft comes back and you or your kids get drafted and sent over there and die.

    Given the chance, I’ll knock your teeth out. Promise.

    Dustin (a87c64)

  38. I don’t know any good ways to get someone to walk a hypothetical mile in hypothetical shoes by dragging their children into the hypothetical journey. Lord knows I’ve tried it and can still remember the ass chewing (I think I needed an ass transplant donor).

    steveg (9464fc)

  39. The Russians supplied North Vietnam through a hands off zone at Haiphong. They supplied lethal weapons that were used to kill Americans less than 30 years after we sent the ungrateful Russian SOB’s war materials to defend themselves from their former collaborative ally Germany… so the Russians can suck it up now and take the lesson or die faster

    steveg (9464fc)

  40. We Need a Peace Time Draft

    Our nation is facing a national security threat: there are not enough military age people joining the U.S. Armed Forces. Yet, the world is still a threatening place, necessitating a robust American military. ……..

    The Department of Defense in 2022 found that only 23% of people in prime military age (ages 17 to 24) qualify for service. Why so low? Obesity, drugs, mental/physical health, or a combination of these. Obesity is the largest single factor.
    ………….
    Bring back the peace time draft.
    ………….
    ……….. .(T)his experiment in an all-volunteer force has come with a price, a price we are now being asked to pay. An entire generation of servicemembers fighting the Global War on Terror found themselves deployed multiple times, with relatively short “dwell times” between deployments. Exhaustion of personnel and their families set in, not to mention an exhaustion of equipment. Yet the general public was woefully unaware of much of this. By having an all-volunteer military, Americans have essentially contracted their war-making to a small caste of their fellow countrymen. Out of sight, out of mind.

    ………. Between 1940 and 1973, in an era of near-permanent crisis, the citizen soldier answered the call by either volunteering or mustering through the draft board for a few short years of service. Military service was almost accepted as routine – almost every American had a veteran in the family or knew someone whose family member had served. It was considered a patriotic duty.

    This is what is missing in today’s military age youth: patriotism. A shared American identity. A July 2021 Pew Research Center study is revealing. Among Americans aged 65 or older, the last generation to be drafted, only 10% believed that other countries are better than the United States. In contrast, 42% of those aged 18 to 29 believed that.

    ………..Bringing back the citizen soldier today, through a new peace-time draft, offers an opportunity to address this issue, beyond its immediate goal of safeguarding the nation by filling the ranks. Since President Truman ordered racial integration, the military has also been a social laboratory. Race in the late 1940s. Sex in the 1970s, when women were fully integrated into the military. A silent integration of sexuality in the 1990s with “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” that became explicit in 2011. ………. In each case, the predictions of doom prophesied by some never came to fruition. Another form of integration can be added to this history: political belief and social class.
    ………….
    ………….(A)ny new peace time draft should not provide any educational deferments, which favors the wealthy. Furthermore, all medical deferments should come exclusively from military doctors, with no input from civilian doctors that the wealthy can afford but the poor cannot.

    A final reason for a new draft comes from the Vietnam experience. Americans, even young people, were politically engaged because they knew that they or their family members could be drafted. They demanded the war’s end, ending Johnson’s presidency and forcing Nixon’s hand. When citizens must personally face the consequence of their elected leaders’ decisions, they hold those politicians accountable. When someone else faces those consequences, such as in an all-volunteer military consisting of less than 1% of the population, people are less engaged and demand less accountability.
    …………..

    Rip Murdock (c47476)

  41. ‘Bring back the peace time draft…’

    Conscripting from a general population pool as opposed to nurturing volunteers who choose to join doesn’t translate to better management. The problem isn’t w/t line troops– or insufficent budgets; it’s w/t brasshole management in the Pentagon.

    “The guys in the field are right and the staff are wrong.” – Colin Powell ‘It Worked For Me’ pg., 93 HarperCollins, 2012

    DCSCA (627c7c)

  42. We Need a Peace Time Draft

    It’s a terrible idea. A wartime draft is also pretty bad, but needs must at times.

    A peacetime draft does three things, all bad:
    1) It diminishes the professionalism of the armed forces.
    2) It encourages politicians to use the military as there is no call-up threshold to cross.
    3) It means that at least some of the soldiers did not volunteer, affecting moral choices.

    The draft in Vietnam took disproportionately from the poor and the brown. Middle-class white kids had a number of options to avoid it that others did not have. It’s not clear how to fix that other than by not having a draft.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  43. Our esteemed host concluded:

    While the partisan shills in parts of the Republican party line up to fellate Putin, the sensible part of the world is together on this. How could you not be? That is, assuming your mind has not been turned to rancid oatmeal by rank partisan bullshit?

    Glory to Ukraine.

    As for all you Russian shills, иди нахуй.

    Just because Vladimir Putin is a bad guy, and the Russian invasion of Ukraine was wholly wrong, does not mean, to me, that we ought to be getting involved in a war with a nation with a strategic nuclear arsenal. What some want to do, arm Ukraine to the point where it can defeat Russia, means, inter alia, pushing Russia into a position in which a desperate act would seem not so unreasonable, and what happens if Russia uses ‘tactical’ nuclear weapons against targets in Ukraine, or NATO supply shipments coming in through Poland? Once the nuclear threshold is crossed, only God knows at what point it would end.

    My older daughter is in the United States Army; the last thing I’d want is to see her deployed to Poland with the Corps of Engineers to upgrade supply bases for Ukraine.

    Yeah, I’d like to see Ukraine survive this war, but not at the price of turning New York into a radioactive black hole in the ground, and anything that increases the chances of that happening seems to me to be a pretty bad idea.

    The libertarian, but not Libertarian, Dana (ecdf4b)

  44. It’s not clear how to fix that other than by not having a draft.

    Kevin M (1ea396) — 2/26/2023 @ 5:32 pm

    It’s very easy-just don’t allow any exemptions.

    Rip Murdock (c47476)

  45. It’s very easy-just don’t allow any exemptions.

    “Very easy???” Except it’s not:

    Postponements

    The following instances are eligible for postponement in the event of a military draft:

    High school students, until he graduates or reaches age 20, whichever occurs first.
    College students, until the end of the semester or, if a senior, until the end of that academic year. Automatic delay if he files a claim for reclassification.
    He is also entitled to file for a postponement if he has an emergency beyond his control, such as a serious illness or death in his immediate family.

    Deferments
    The following instances are eligible for deferments in the event of a military draft:

    Hardship deferments, for men whose induction would result in hardship to persons who depend upon them for support.

    Ministerial students, deferred until completion of studies.

    Exemptions

    The following instances are eligible for exemptions in the event of a military draft:

    Ministers; Certain elected officials, exempt so long as they continue to hold office.
    Veterans, generally exempt from service in peacetime draft. Immigrants and dual nationals in some cases may be exempt from U.S. military service depending upon their place of residence and country of citizenship.

    ‘Men are not classified now. Classification is the process of determining who is available for military service and who is deferred or exempted. Classifications are based on each individual registrant’s circumstances and beliefs. A classification program would go into effect when Congress and the President decide to resume a draft. At that time, men who are qualified for induction would have the opportunity to file a claim for exemptions, deferments, and postponements from military service.

    The following is a list of the more commonly used Selective Service classifications from 1948 – 1976. Roman numerals I, II, III, IV, V were sometimes used:

    1-A – Available for military service.
    1-AM – Medical specialist available for military service.
    1-A-O – Conscientious Objector – Conscientiously opposed to training and military service requiring the use of arms – fulfills his service obligation in a noncombatant position within the military. Those classified 1-A-O are conscientious objectors available for noncombatant military service.
    1-A-OM – Medical specialist conscientious objector available for noncombatant military service.
    1-C – Member of the Armed Forces of the United States, the Coast and Geodetic Survey, or the Public Health Service. (Enl) – enlisted; (Ind) – inducted; (Dis) – discharged
    1-D – Member of a Reserve component or student taking military training.
    1-H – Registrant not currently subject to processing for induction or alternative service.
    Note: Within the cessation of registrant processing in 1976, all registrants (except for a few alleged violators of the Military Selective Service Act) were classified 1-H regardless of any previous classification.
    1-O – Conscientious objector available for civilian work contributing to the national health, safety or interest.
    1-OM – Medical specialist conscientious objector available for civilian work contributing to the national health, safety or interest.
    1-S – Student deferred by status – (H) high school; (C) college.
    1-W – Conscientious objector performing civilian work in the national health, safety or interest. (Rel) – Released.
    1-Y – Registrant qualified for service only in time of war or national emergency.
    Note: The 1-Y classification was abolished December 10, 1971. Local boards were subsequently instructed to reclassify all 1-Y registrants by administrative action.
    2-A – Registrant deferred because of civilian occupation (except agriculture).
    2-AM – Medical specialist deferred because of critical community need involving patient care.
    2-C – Registrant deferred because of agricultural occupation.
    2-D – Ministerial Students – Deferred from military service.
    2-M – Registrant deferred for medical study.
    2-S – Registrant deferred because of activity in study.
    3-A – Hardship Deferment – Deferred from military service because service would cause hardship upon his family.
    4-A – Registrant who has completed service; or sole surviving son.
    4-B – Official deferred by law.
    4-C – Alien or Dual National – Sometimes exempt from military service.
    4-D – Ministers of Religion – Exempted from military service.
    4-E – Conscientious objector opposed to both combatant and noncombatant training and service.
    4-F – Registrant not qualified for military service.
    4-FM – Medical specialist not qualified for military service.
    4-G – Sole surviving son – son or brothers in a family where the parent or sibling died as a result of US military service, or is in a captured or M.I.A. status, are exempt from service in peacetime.
    4-W – Conscientious objector who has completed civilian alternate service.
    5-A – Registrant over the age of liability for military service.

    Student Postponements – A college student may have his induction postponed until he finishes the current semester or, if a senior, the end of the academic year. A high school student may have his induction postponed until he graduates or until he reaches age 20.

    Appealing a Classification – A man may appeal his classification to a Selective Service Appeal Board.

    https://www.sss.gov/about/return-to-draft/

    DCSCA (94e664)

  46. It’s very easy-just don’t allow any exemptions.

    “Very easy???” Except it’s not:

    Deferments and exemptions aren’t written in stone, the laws and regulations can be changed.

    Rip Murdock (c47476)

  47. ‘Deferments and exemptions aren’t written in stone, the laws and regulations can be changed.’

    LOLOLOL Great! Start w/4D, Ministers of Religion – Exempted from military service… then 4B, Official deferred by law… and 4G, Sole surviving son – son or brothers in a family where the parent or sibling died as a result of US military service, or is in a captured or M.I.A. status, are exempt from service in peacetime… and see how quick you can get them there ‘laws and regulations’ changed.

    “Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition” – Frank Loesser, 1942

    DCSCA (94e664)

  48. Are people allowed to have the opinion that Putin is a warmongering ahole but also that the US should not be sending military aid to the Ukraine, but rather trying to use whatever influence it has left in the world to try get both sides to sit down at the table and negotiate a peaceful end to the war?

    kaf (ca38e9) — 2/25/2023 @ 6:12 pm

    I realize kaf is already gone, but…

    Can someone hold these opinions together? Sure. Provided they answer two questions:

    1) How do you propose to broker a peace between a nation that has decided it wants to keep all its sovereign territory…and a nation that will require at least some territorial concessions as part of a peace negotiation? Because there is no middle ground there. No compromise is possible. Either Ukraine loses land, people, children — or Russia loses, period.

    2) If I were to hack into your financial accounts and take, say, 20% of your money…how much of that would you be willing to let me keep in order to establish peace between us? Because if your answer is “None, you @$$hole, give me back all my money or I’m calling the cops” — then allow me to suggest that you may want to examine the consistency of your moral principles. Especially given that Ukraine is fighting for a lot more than money.

    At this point, if you are pro sending even more military aid to Ukraine the blood is on your hands. I hope the draft comes back and you or your kids get drafted and sent over there and die.

    kaf (ca38e9) — 2/25/2023 @ 8:06 pm

    At this point, if you’re “both-sides”ing this whole situation, then you are prolonging the conflict. So the blood is on YOUR hands.

    Demosthenes (380a91)

  49. kaf is gone, but he wouldn’t be human if he refrained from following the thread.

    It’s sad to see people like him get sucked into tribal thinking. Tuckyo is the chief villain here. He is a toxic propagandist. His fans will scoff at that, of course, but that’s the insidious thing about propaganda. When it’s done well, you don’t realize it. You watch it for too long, and you will fall prey. Tucker doesn’t begin his show by stating, “This program contains one-sided propaganda. Viewer discretion advised.”

    Tucker is so good that he will make you think he is presenting the other side, but it’s not an objective depiction. He slants, twists, and cherry picks. He also makes false equivalencies and is often a pyromaniac in a field of straw men. Like somebody said, he stokes his cult with his constant underlying message: “They are coming for you.” Tune in tomorrow for the latest developments!

    Well said, Demosthenes. It’s good to see you here. Your writing is top notch.

    norcal (7345e5)

  50. norcal- FDIC?! You ever see ‘Ocean’s 11’ w/t Rat Pack vs., Duke Santos? The swiped casino $ was insured, but Duke’s deal to the Eleven was pure Vegas: ‘Fifty percent of something is better than one hundred percent of nothin’.’ Course in the end, everybody got burned. 😉

    DCSCA (94e664)

  51. Just because Vladimir Putin is a bad guy, and the Russian invasion of Ukraine was wholly wrong, does not mean, to me, that we ought to be getting involved in a war with a nation with a strategic nuclear arsenal. What some want to do, arm Ukraine to the point where it can defeat Russia, means, inter alia, pushing Russia into a position in which a desperate act would seem not so unreasonable, and what happens if Russia uses ‘tactical’ nuclear weapons against targets in Ukraine, or NATO supply shipments coming in through Poland? Once the nuclear threshold is crossed, only God knows at what point it would end.

    My older daughter is in the United States Army; the last thing I’d want is to see her deployed to Poland with the Corps of Engineers to upgrade supply bases for Ukraine.

    Yeah, I’d like to see Ukraine survive this war, but not at the price of turning New York into a radioactive black hole in the ground, and anything that increases the chances of that happening seems to me to be a pretty bad idea.

    So it’s all about you.

    It’s amazing how you’re able to do that: take a war halfway around the world that doesn’t remotely put your safety at risk, and make it about you.

    I can do that with any policy you’d like to pursue. Name one.

    I’d like to see abortion reduced, but a pro-abortion terrorist might get a nuclear weapon and threaten us all, so I think I’ll let that one go.

    Sure, there are a few points between A (reducing abortion) and B (terrorist nukes us) but same goes for your scenario. It’s not like we send jets to Ukraine and next thing you know ol’ Vlad has nuked Manhattan. The steps in between, I might oppose some of them too. But right now, your proposed scenario is just a way to take a conflict that is about Ukraine and make it about you.

    It’s not about you.

    Patterico (3cd597)

  52. To the extent that Putin is actually threatening nuclear blackmail, I have written extensively about why it’s a bad idea to give in to nuclear blackmail. If I thought my arguments had the slightest chance of being considered by you in a serious and thoughtful manner, I would link you to my arguments and quote them to you.

    . . .

    . . .

    . . .

    Patterico (f405c8)

  53. It’s very easy-just don’t allow any exemptions.

    So, the 98 pound asthmatic gets sent off to the wars? How about the 48 year old father of 5? How about the kid who has 5 patents by the time he’s 15? Cannon fodder?

    What you suggest is absurd. And EVEN IF THE DRAFT IS FAIR it’s still unbelievably stupid.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  54. California will be split before there’s a peacetime draft. And this is the guy who lectures everyone on the possible and the pipe dreams. Or in this case the pipe nightmare.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  55. 2) If I were to hack into your financial accounts and take, say, 20% of your money…how much of that would you be willing to let me keep in order to establish peace between us? Because if your answer is “None, you @$$hole, give me back all my money or I’m calling the cops” — then allow me to suggest that you may want to examine the consistency of your moral principles. Especially given that Ukraine is fighting for a lot more than money.

    Well said.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  56. My older daughter is in the United States Army; the last thing I’d want is to see her deployed to Poland with the Corps of Engineers to upgrade supply bases for Ukraine.

    Yeah, I’d like to see Ukraine survive this war, but not at the price of turning New York into a radioactive black hole in the ground, and anything that increases the chances of that happening seems to me to be a pretty bad idea.

    This again. Maybe if we let them have Ukraine they’ll stop there. But whatever, so long as we don’t have to put anything on the line. IF we had run the Cold War like that, we’d all be speaking Russian.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  57. If nuclear blackmail is a good idea, why doesn’t Biden just tell Putin to get the F out of Ukraine or we’ll nuke Moscow? I mean, if we should back down then why shouldn’t he?

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  58. norcal- FDIC?! You ever see ‘Ocean’s 11’ w/t Rat Pack vs., Duke Santos? The swiped casino $ was insured, but Duke’s deal to the Eleven was pure Vegas: ‘Fifty percent of something is better than one hundred percent of nothin’.’ Course in the end, everybody got burned. 😉

    DCSCA (94e664) — 2/26/2023 @ 8:21 pm

    I have seen Ocean’s Eleven, but I don’t understand how your statement relates to anything I’ve said. You’ll have to connect the dots for me.

    norcal (7345e5)

  59. DCSCA things that compromising with the robbers for 50% of your stuff is a smart deal.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  60. War with a country with top end nuclear missile capabilities is half a world away, which in this case is 30 minutes flight time… 10 minutes if their submarine systems work. I spend little time worrying, but have at times wondered if Russian brand fail safe is very- um- robust? Maybe thinking about how maybe their nuclear arsenal has been degraded by theft, neglect, and how likely they are to miss us and hit Belize. I never dreamed the 2nd best military in the world would use operation time and assets to pillage washing machines and toilets

    steveg (7207d7)

  61. @60. Duke Santos did. The casino bosses were only offering him a 30% finders fee– and their $ was insured. Do try to keep up.

    DCSCA (92ca67)

  62. I lived through the entire effing Cold War. I remember the Cuban Missile Crisis. Back then the Red Army kicked ass. These days the Russian Navy flagship gets sunk by a jury-rigged missile and their tanks prove just so many targets. Not impressed.

    Do I fear a nuclear war? Less than average.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  63. OT- for those interested:

    https://www.nasa.gov/content/live-coverage-of-nasas-spacex-crew-6-mission

    T-16 minutes or so to launch… SpaceX Crew 6 to ISS ready to fly atop ‘evil’ Elon’s rocket and spacecraft for NASA. The Devil made them do it. 😉

    DCSCA (92ca67)

  64. @63. As did millions of other Americans. And we’re all still waiting for that ‘peace dividend’ check to come in the mail. 😉

    DCSCA (92ca67)

  65. A scrub. Ignition fluid flow issue.

    DCSCA (92ca67)

  66. DCSCA things that compromising with the robbers for 50% of your stuff is a smart deal.

    Kevin M (1ea396) — 2/26/2023 @ 10:06 pm

    Egads. I hope you’re just joking.

    norcal (7345e5)

  67. Giving in to nuclear blackmail, even just a little, is a bad idea.

    Putin is a bully. Never show weakness or trust a bully. It doesn’t end well. Ask Neville Chamberlain.

    norcal (7345e5)

  68. speaking of go fu*k yourself supreme court will take up brunsen case to remove biden from presidency and install trump.

    asset (5e9fd4)

  69. Sounds like pacifism, smells like borscht.

    nk (bb1548)

  70. For a second I thought maybe FWO moved to Latvia.

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  71. So it’s all about you.

    Last time, it was all about WMD.

    and the shaming rhetoric took the form of “you’re either with us, or with the terrorists” and “axis of evil”

    but I guess as with everything, inflation has taken it’s toll and that verbiage isn’t flying off the racks like before

    JF (a9dad2)

  72. Our distinguished host wrote:

    My older daughter is in the United States Army; the last thing I’d want is to see her deployed to Poland with the Corps of Engineers to upgrade supply bases for Ukraine.

    Yeah, I’d like to see Ukraine survive this war, but not at the price of turning New York into a radioactive black hole in the ground, and anything that increases the chances of that happening seems to me to be a pretty bad idea.

    So it’s all about you.

    It’s amazing how you’re able to do that: take a war halfway around the world that doesn’t remotely put your safety at risk, and make it about you.

    I live about 700 miles away from New York City, so not wanting to see NYC turning into a radioactive black hole in the ground really isn’t all about me.

    But yeah, I do have some personal interest in this, in that no, I don’t want my daughter, who has served in Afghanistan, and is currently in the Middle East, send to a place in which Russia could either deliberately or inadvertently strike in an attempt to destroy NATO supplies heading for Ukraine.

    norcal put it bluntly:

    Giving in to nuclear blackmail, even just a little, is a bad idea.

    Putin is a bully. Never show weakness or trust a bully. It doesn’t end well. Ask Neville Chamberlain.

    That, to me, is World War II thinking, when what we could wind up having is World War III.

    Perhaps, if the British and French had stood firm, they could have stopped the Nazis from annexing the Sudetenland, and later the rest of Czechoslovakia, but perhaps not: had Adolf Hitler given the order, the Wehrmacht was already in position to take it anyway, while the British were in no position to stop them. The French did have troops next to Germany, and could have marched in, but French military thinking was almost entirely World War I thinking, defensive rather than offensive in nature.

    But more to the point, Germany in 1938 did not have the capability to wipe out Britain and France in a couple of hours. And when the British and French did give Poland an unconditional guarantee in 1939, and Adolf Hitler ordered the invasion anyway, the British and French were unable to do anything to stop the Germans. Poland was finally liberated in 1944-45, when the Red Army pushed the Germans out.

    Nuclear weapons have changed everything. The North Atlantic Treaty was signed in April of 1949, when the US and democratic Europe were worried about a conventional Soviet attack; intelligence guesstimates held that the USSR was perhaps five years away from developing an atomic bomb.

    The Soviets tested their first atomic bomb in August of 1949.

    They had no real way to deliver atomic weapons to military targets, not immediately, but that changed soon enough. We are now in the position that we are obligated, by treaty, to go to war with Russia if Vladimir Putin sends the troops into Latvia; how many American cities are you (plural) willing to sacrifice to fight the Soviets Russians if they try to retake the Baltic States?

    The libertarian, but not Libertarian, Dana (ecdf4b)

  73. I see that my comments automatically go into moderation. Oh, well!

    Mr G wrote:

    War with a country with top end nuclear missile capabilities is half a world away, which in this case is 30 minutes flight time… 10 minutes if their submarine systems work. I spend little time worrying, but have at times wondered if Russian brand fail safe is very- um- robust? Maybe thinking about how maybe their nuclear arsenal has been degraded by theft, neglect, and how likely they are to miss us and hit Belize. I never dreamed the 2nd best military in the world would use operation time and assets to pillage washing machines and toilets

    The Russian arsenal is substantially degraded, but if only 10% of their ICBMs and SLBMs work, and a limited nuclear war gets out of any sort of control — and how controlled could it ever be? — and the Russkies shoot 50 warheads at our cities, will it be some sort of victory if only 5 of them actually strike their targets?

    In the movie War Games, the WOPR computer was egged into playing ‘global thermonuclear war’ with itself, for try to find a winning scenario. It finally concluded, “Strange game. The only winning move is not to play.”

    The libertarian, but not Libertarian, Dana (ecdf4b)

  74. California will be split before there’s a peacetime draft. And this is the guy who lectures everyone on the possible and the pipe dreams. Or in this case the pipe nightmare.

    Kevin M (1ea396) — 2/26/2023 @ 9:43 pm

    I never said I was in favor of a peacetime draft, I merely posted an argument in favor for discussion purposes. Posting an article against the draft when we don’t have one hardly promotes a discussion of issue.

    Rip Murdock (c47476)

  75. I never said I was in favor of a peacetime draft

    44 and 46 seemed to argue for it.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  76. supreme court will take up brunsen case to remove biden from presidency and install trump.

    I think I speak for everyone here when I say: “Hunh?”

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  77. Kevin M (1ea396) — 2/26/2023 @ 9:43 pm

    And I engaged your secession arguments, in contrast to your “shoot the messenger” response to the issue of a peacetime draft.

    Rip Murdock (c47476)

  78. We are now in the position that we are obligated, by treaty, to go to war with Russia if Vladimir Putin sends the troops into Latvia; how many American cities are you (plural) willing to sacrifice to fight the Soviets Russians if they try to retake the Baltic States?

    So, you not only argue for leaving Ukraine to their fate, but all the other dominoes as well. Where would you make your stand? Germany? England? Canada? Alaska? Pennsylvania?

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  79. And I engaged your secession arguments, in contrast to your “shoot the messenger” response to the issue of a peacetime draft.

    Up at #42 I engaged the terrible no good idea directly. Only after you ignored those arguments and just did a couple Pffts (44, 46) to my conclusion did I suggest that you were acting out of character.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  80. As for the Russian onslaught (free link):

    For months, military analysts have been anticipating that the Russian military, under pressure from President Vladimir V. Putin, would seek to regain momentum in the war as the first anniversary approached. A recent series of attacks along the front lines in the Donbas region of eastern Ukraine were at first regarded as exploratory thrusts. But increasingly, they are seen as the best the exhausted Russian forces can manage.

    “Russia’s big new offensive is underway,” said Kyrylo Budanov, the head of Ukraine’s military intelligence agency, in an interview last week with the Ukrainian edition of Forbes magazine. “But going in a way that not everyone can even notice it.”

    Nobody tell Putin.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  81. I thought the Ukraine war was really about Ukraine but turns out it’s really about Dana from Kentucky and his daughter and New York City. Luckily he has a solution that will protect the real victim: him. The solution: do nothing. Problem solved! As long as America does nothing the threat disappears and the real victim, Dana from Kentucky, is safe.

    Patterico (c6e992)

  82. Only after you ignored those arguments and just did a couple Pffts (44, 46) to my conclusion did I suggest that you were acting out of character.

    The “pfffts” (how DCSCA of you) were on point. To play devil’s advocate, eliminating draft exemptions would cure the discriminatory nature of the Vietnam War draft, and they are not set in stone. As the article I posted pointed out, the “professional” military has no real link to American society at large, which in my view makes it more likely, not less, for the armed forces to be used by politicians since society has no “skin in the game.”

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  83. Even a professional army has individual members, who have families, etc. The only difference is that they have all volunteered so no one is being sent in harm’s way involuntarily.

    Does that mean the people have no skin in the game? Hardly. Dana from Kentucky makes that clear, although I suspect Dana’s daughter looks at it differently.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  84. Mick Ryan has a good thread on the Russian “onslaught”, Kevin. Bottom line, they’re using a “new” tactic which dates back to 1916, but don’t have the strategy to make it stick.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  85. Dana fKy: “In the movie War Games, the WOPR computer was egged into playing ‘global thermonuclear war’ with itself, for try to find a winning scenario. It finally concluded, “Strange game. The only winning move is not to play.””

    The Russians are aware of the same logical conclusion….and how many Russians are willing to die in nuclear annihilation for Putin’s aspirations of legacy and empire? If Putin is no longer rationale and if nuclear blackmail worked in Ukraine, why would he not try it in Latvia and then in Sweden?

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  86. The fantasy is that America has control and that’s by doing nothing we fix everything.

    In fact, by doing nothing we would reward nuclear blackmail and increase the chances of nuclear war.

    We have no option “not to play.” We can do nothing, but we’re in the game anyway, so doing nothing simply means we lose: that nuclear blackmailers proliferate and call all the shots.

    Patterico (7e54d1)

  87. As the article I posted pointed out, the “professional” military has no real link to American society at large, which in my view makes it more likely, not less, for the armed forces to be used by politicians since society has no “skin in the game.”

    Pfft. Really?

    San Diego County has the largest concentration of military personnel within California. There are approximately 110,700 Active Duty personnel and 118,300 family members, which represents 7.6 percent of San Diego County’s total population.
    [My neighbor and his wife are professionals who’ve served for years; United States Marines; the fella across the street is, too: USN. They all mow their lawns w/t rest of us, Rip.]
    An estimated 60.7 percent (71,759) of military families in San Diego County are children.
    And guess what- they attend public schools and interact w/’American society.’

    Problems rest w/t ‘professional’ brassholes isolated in the Pentagon by the politician’s swamp, Washington, not the line personnel who drive the planes and tanks. In the civilian world, we call it piss-poor bad management. The Pentagon needs cleaned out w/asses fired or retired and reorganized. An institution that spends $13.5 billion on an aircraft carrier with toilets that don’t flush need work– or flushed itself. And a new Truman Committee established to monitor budgetary waste.

    “The guys in the field are right and the staff are wrong.” – Colin Powell, ‘It Worked For Me’ pg., 93 HarperCollins, 2012

    DCSCA (53a75d)

  88. rethugliKKKan congressman from texas questions loyalty of rep. judy chu a democrat and first asian women elected to congress. Perhaps he should check the loyalty of his fellow rethugliKKKans first. Starting with MTG!

    asset (38bb8f)

  89. Imagine the world today if America’s post-WWI isolation had continued. The Japanese, German and maybe Soviet empires would rule most of the world. East Asia and Eurasia, if you will. ANd we’d be finally facing them along the Malabar Front.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  90. Dana- thanks for your response.
    I don’t take any consolation in a war being fought half a world away because of the speed ICBM’s move and nuclear armed submarines that are much less than half a world away. I do hope that Russian ICBM’s are not all working well, even as I realize 5% would be more than enough. I also don’t want Belize to be the worlds unluckiest non combatant.
    Many Americans will look at the risk/reward equation in helping Ukraine, come up with the answer “not worth it”. One of my best friends and I were talking on a bike ride, subject Ukraine was brought up by me and his reaction was: “I’m tired of all the Ukraine flags.” My friend has chronic isolationism.

    steveg (b837be)

  91. That, to me, is World War II thinking, when what we could wind up having is World War III.

    The libertarian, but not Libertarian, Dana (ecdf4b) — 2/27/2023 @ 6:21 am

    Which is exactly the line of argument the Russians would like us all to consider. Is Crimea worth World War III? Are four provinces of Ukraine worth World War III?

    How about the rest of Ukraine, plus maybe Moldova into the bargain?

    How about Georgia, Armenia, and Azerbaijan?

    How about some of the former Soviet countries in Central Asia? Or all of them?

    How about the Baltics…or, you know, how about the Balkans?

    I’m not actually joking. For anyone who believes this line of argument, I want to know: is there a line you would be prepared to draw against Russian incursions into neighboring territories — a line that if they challenged or advanced beyond it, you would be willing to risk World War III — and if so, where is it? I am assuming that it’s somewhere in Europe, at least. Because if your answer is “the territorial waters of the United States,” then I have some sobering news about how miserable and isolated we would be by then. For someone who wants to give us all a history lesson on Hitler’s territorial expansion, Dana, you sure do come across more like Neville Chamberlain than you might have intended.

    (The same question also obtains regarding China, by the way. Is your line beyond the shores of Taiwan? Somewhere in Southeast Asia? At the tip of the Korean peninsula? Somewhere in the Philippines? Somewhere in Japan?)

    You also neglect the basic truth that while Britain and France could pledge but not secure Poland’s territorial sovereignty in 1939, there is an awful lot we can do 85 years later to help Ukraine maintain its sovereignty and retake its territory…without putting boots on the ground, without directly engaging Russian troops. And we are doing much of it. Do I want a nuclear war? No, of course not. But I don’t think Russia does either. And letting them take even small amounts of territory by rattling the nuclear saber is a surefire way to make not just the territories around Russia, but the entire world, measurably less safe.

    Demosthenes (5d5729)

  92. Do I want a nuclear war? No, of course not. But I don’t think Russia does either. And letting them take even small amounts of territory by rattling the nuclear saber is a surefire way to make not just the territories around Russia, but the entire world, measurably less safe.

    Especially when you’ve given in once and then try to stand your ground later. They will just rattle the nuclear saber harder and harder until you cave again. It becomes a game of “chicken.”

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  93. Air Force relieves 2 commanders, 4 leaders at North Dakota nuclear bomber, missile base

    ‘The Air Force has relieved six leaders assigned to a North Dakota base in charge of nuclear missiles and bombers over a loss of confidence, the military branch said Monday. Maj. Gen. Andrew J. Gebara, commander of 8th Air Force, relived Col. Gregory Mayer of the 5th Mission Support Group and Maj. Jonathan Welch of the 5th Logistics Readiness Squadron, both based at Minot Air Force Base. The Air Force didn’t identify the commanders, but an Air Force spokesperson confirmed their identities to Task & Purpose. “These personnel actions were necessary to maintain the very high standards we demand of those units entrusted with supporting our Nation’s nuclear mission,” said Gebara.

    Mayer, Welch and four subordinate leaders were relieved of command “due to a loss of confidence in their ability to complete their assigned duties,” the Air Force said. The Air Force did not specify why commanders had lost confidence in all six individuals. The 5th Bomb Wing operates the B-52H Stratofortress aircraft, which is one of the two types of nuclear-capable bombers that the Air Force uses, the news outlet reported.’ – FoxNews.com

    “The Air Force did not specify why commanders had lost confidence in all six individuals.” Why not? They have trouble defining with specificity what ‘ice’ is, too… We’re they drunk on the job… lose a nuke… or miss seeing a few Chinese spy balloons passing over head??? ‘We The People,’ who pay the freight, are entitled to know.

    DCSCA (ba42e3)

  94. Even a professional army has individual members, who have families, etc. The only difference is that they have all volunteered so no one is being sent in harm’s way involuntarily.

    Does that mean the people have no skin in the game? Hardly. Dana from Kentucky makes that clear, although I suspect Dana’s daughter looks at it differently.

    Kevin M (1ea396) — 2/27/2023 @ 9:33 am

    When I said “society” has no skin in the game I meant the millions of citizens/voters who are segregated from those participating in the defense of the United States. The number of families with service members in the volunteer military is miniscule compared the millions of other families who are not invested in how the military is used. Most of our politicians haven’t served:

    The incoming U.S. House of Representatives will have 80 members who’ve served in the military at some level, or 18.4% of the total membership, according to a Pew Research Center analysis of this fall’s election results. That’s up from 75, or 17.2%, in the outgoing Congress. The number of senators who are veterans, 17, will stay the same.

    The next House will still have one of the smallest shares of veteran members in modern times. Between 1965 and 1975, at least 70% of members in each chamber had military experience, reflecting the mass mobilizations of World War II and the Korean War. (The first Vietnam War combat veteran elected to Congress, John Murtha of Pennsylvania, won his seat in 1974.)

    While the sources consulted by the Center for this analysis aren’t always specific about when or where members served, it’s clear that most of the veterans in the new Congress are from the post-Vietnam era. Among all 97 House and Senate veterans who’ll be serving in the next Congress, 31 are in their 50s, 21 are in their 40s, and nine are in their 30s.
    ………..
    More than 40% of all the veterans in the next House (36 of 80) served in the regular Army, the Reserve or the National Guard. That compares with 22 who served in the Navy or Navy Reserve; 13 who served in the Air Force, Air Force Reserve or Air National Guard; and 11 who served in the Marines or the Marine Corps Reserve. Two members served in two different branches of the military; they are counted in each branch’s total. …….

    Over in the Senate, seven senators and senators-elect served in the Army, Army Reserve or Army National Guard; five served in the Navy or Navy Reserve; four in the Marines or the Marine Corps Reserve; and two in the Air Force, Air Force Reserve or Air National Guard. One senator – Todd Young, R-Indiana – served in both the Navy and the Marines.

    I am not so sure that “they have all volunteered so no one is being sent in harm’s way involuntarily.” I am certain that a lot of the “volunteers” joined for the multitude of benefits they receive while in service, without actually thinking that they will actually be sent into combat. I’m sure the low cost/free housing, health care, and education benefits are better selling point than “we may send you someplace where you might die.” But they signed up for that too.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  95. Especially when you’ve given in once and then try to stand your ground later. They will just rattle the nuclear saber harder and harder until you cave again. It becomes a game of “chicken.”

    Kevin M (1ea396) — 2/27/2023 @ 1:51 pm

    This. All day long.

    The more one gives in, the more the bully will feel compelled to take action if at some point one doesn’t give in.

    We all need to be firm in mind on this issue.

    Fearing the end of the world, and giving in to the bullies, will lead to the end of the world.

    Putin knows he’s dealing with Americans who are comfortable, and who live in a fully free democracy, and that he can scare some of them to pressure their representatives to give in.

    Don’t fall for it. It’s a weakness of mind.

    norcal (7345e5)

  96. Is it possible to hold the following opinions simultaneously? I do, but consistency isn’t my strong suit.

    1. Putin is a tyrant and has committed unjustified and evil aggression. Russia must be defeated.
    2. In furtherance of that goal, US and the NATO countries should supply Ukraine with the weapons it needs not just to achieve a stalemate, but to expel the Russian invaders.
    3. Despite supporting 2., it is legitimate to have concerns about using offensive weapons against Russia, because there has never been a time when the military forces of one country attacked a nuclear power within its own borders, so if Ukraine is able to take the war to Russian soil it will be an unprecedented situation. Even if you don’t **really** think Putin would use nuclear weapons if he faced defeat (and possible overthrow) the mere fact that someone urges caution should not, without more, be considered a sign of bad faith or pro-Putin sympathies on their part.
    4. Yes, Ukraine is imperfect and has corruption problems, and some Ukrainians are not good guys, but for now, so what (and who’s perfect, anyway). What matters is stopping the Russian aggression, let Ukraine sort out its issues once that is done.
    5. Since there have been some comments about the draft — now that I’m well past draft age, bringing back the draft might be a good idea because the US might be less prone to thoughtless military interventions if more people had an understanding of what military action really means.
    6. It’s too bad that those pesky provisions in the Constitution prevent the US from trading Biden for Zelensky, straight up. It would be nice to have a real leader in the US.

    Anyway, even if some commenters may tend to phrase things provocatively, most people on this blog probably at least agree with 1. At least I hope so.

    RL formerly in Glendale (7a2d64)

  97. because the US might be less prone to thoughtless military interventions if more people had an understanding of what military action really means.

    Exactly.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  98. I’m sure the low cost/free housing, health care, and education benefits are better selling point than “we may send you someplace where you might die.”

    They could not have missed that point. It’s not exactly hidden. Sure, they wanted the benefits — that’s how they GET people to sign up with them, rather than drive an Uber. But is is lightyears more acceptance of risk than being dragooned by a press gang.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  99. Here is an uncomfortable truth.

    The free world doesn’t have much chance of staying free unless its citizens are willing to die at a moment’s notice in a nuclear exchange with a malevolent nuclear state bent on expansion.

    It’s called Mutually Assured Destruction, and we’ve been living under it for decades, whether we think about it or not.

    Russia knows that NATO poses no threat to it. That’s why it has moved its military away from NATO borders to Ukraine. It also knows that the U.S. and NATO would not countenance Ukraine annexation of any part of Russia. (I don’t count Crimea as part of Russia.)

    We all need to be like JFK during the Cuban Missile Crisis, and be firm of mind.

    A coward dies a thousand deaths in his lifetime. A brave man only dies once.

    Being brave will paradoxically enhance the chances of keeping the free world alive AND free.

    norcal (7345e5)

  100. I’m well past draft age, bringing back the draft might be a good idea because the US might be less prone to thoughtless military interventions if more people had an understanding of what military action really means…

    A visit to Arlington National Cemetery is much more persuasive.

    DCSCA (345f3c)

  101. We all need to be like JFK during the Cuban Missile Crisis, and be firm of mind

    JFK and his team had the resolve to keep a path open for his adversary to allow a way out as a means to deescalate. The irony is, the guy who actually ‘saved the world’ was Soviet naval officer Vasili Arkhipov, the Brigade Chief of Staff on submarine B-59, who refused to fire a nuclear missile and saved the world from World War III and nuclear disaster:

    https://www.pbs.org/wnet/secrets/the-man-who-saved-the-world-about-this-episode/871/

    DCSCA (345f3c)

  102. One of my best friends and I were talking on a bike ride, subject Ukraine was brought up by me and his reaction was: “I’m tired of all the Ukraine flags.” My friend has chronic isolationism.

    Your friend and Ted Cruz.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  103. JFK and his team had the resolve to keep a path open for his adversary to allow a way out as a means to deescalate

    DCSCA (345f3c) — 2/27/2023 @ 5:00 pm

    Putin also has a path out. It’s in the general direction of North.

    norcal (7345e5)

  104. Putin knows he’s dealing with Americans who are comfortable, and who live in a fully free democracy, and that he can scare some of them to pressure their representatives to give in.
    Don’t fall for it. It’s a weakness of mind.
    norcal (7345e5) — 2/27/2023 @ 3:15 pm

    comfortable Americans gunning for war from the safety of a keyboard are certainly exhibiting an impressive strength of mind

    good lord

    JF (e68188)

  105. 3. Despite supporting 2., it is legitimate to have concerns about using offensive weapons against Russia

    Define “offensive weapons”

    Patterico (cfbbea)

  106. RL in Glendale,

    If Israelis bomb a site from which Gaza is launching rockets is that an “offensive” (as opposed to defensive) action?

    Patterico (cfbbea)

  107. comfortable Americans gunning for war from the safety of a keyboard are certainly exhibiting an impressive strength of mind

    good lord

    Who is more comfortable than you, JF? I reckon you’re plenty more “comfortable” than the Ukrainians whose hospitals are being bombed. What does your comment even mean? How does arming Ukraine, which did not start this war, to help them STOP this war “gunning for war.”

    You are the one sitting on your ass trying to oppose actions that might end this war. You’re a keyboard coward.

    Patterico (cfbbea)

  108. Your positions are really dumb, and I say that with respect.

    Patterico (cfbbea)

  109. Putin also has a path out. It’s in the general direction of North.

    …. or the proverbial pistol in the drawer. 😉

    DCSCA (f4e445)

  110. Putin also has a path out. It’s in the general direction of North.

    norcal (7345e5) — 2/27/2023 @ 5:13 pm

    Yes, it is…though he can’t take it. Thanks for putting that DS-CSA quote in there, by the way. Nice to see he’s still in the business of cherry-picking the past for examples he can misapply to the present.

    Seriously, for anyone who agrees with DS-CSA’s garbage analogy — what path could be left open for Putin? He started a war he expected to win in a few days, or a couple of weeks at the outside. Once he realized he was stuck for the long haul, it was too late. The world was already coming down hard on Russia, and he couldn’t lose face by withdrawing. Nor can he now. If he doesn’t wind up with something to show for the men, equipment, and international reputation he has lost in Ukraine, he’s done.

    So the only “path out” for Putin is…if Ukraine agrees to surrender territory at the bargaining table. Anyone arguing for a path out, you’re arguing for that. You’re arguing that a country which had a treaty broken against it, and its borders violated, and its people savagely murdered, and its children kidnapped — all of these by its larger, better-armed neighbor — should be forced by the international community to simply let go of some of its territory and grievances as a precondition for peace in a war it never wanted to fight. And the reason you’re arguing this is so that an ex-KGB thug who has one foot in the grave won’t be tempted to do the most insane thing any human being could possibly do, just so he can pay us back for helping out the little guy in a war HE STARTED.

    If that’s what you want, if that’s really what you think is right, then fine. But be honest about it. Say what you mean. Say you don’t care about justice. Say you’re willing to let war crimes be bygones. Say you want peace at any price, as long as someone else has to pay it. And then pack up all your crap, and move to Russia. Because that’s where you belong.

    Demosthenes (9222aa)

  111. So the only “path out” for Putin is…

    …pistol in a drawer aside, any path Eurasian Alliance partner China tells him to take.

    DCSCA (f4e445)

  112. #105, 106

    Patterico,

    I actually agree with you and, point well taken, was not very clear about “offensive weapons.” In my fuzzy way of thinking an offensive weapon in this context is one that Ukraine can use to strike inside Russia, and I’m all for the Ukrainians having what they need to do that. And regarding your hypothetical about the Israelis, that would not be an offensive action on their part, but a justified act of self-defense, even if carried out with an offensive weapon. Perhaps if Ukraine had had Israeli-quality jets a year ago Putin would have been afraid to start this war. It seems sort of silly to me to say that on the one hand it’s OK to attack Russian soldiers if they’re in Ukraine but not OK if they’re in Russia (and Putin seems to have an elastic and expansive definition of what constitutes Russian territory anyway, which is not worthy of respect). I think the Ukrainians should have the weapons they need to win this thing and maybe if they can bring the war home to Russia it will end sooner. My only point, perhaps badly expressed, was that if someone else argues for caution and restricting the Ukrainians I won’t assume it must be because they’re really pro-Putin, as none of this is within my experience or expertise and maybe they know something I don’t, or maybe they’re just honestly wrong. My late dad used to say, when I disagreed with him, that “you have the right to be wrong” and I have taken that to heart.

    By the way, congratulations, and thanks, for 20 years of this blog and for keeping it at a high level. Have been a reader for probably 19 of those years. Am guessing that probably 95% of the work involved is below-the-waterline stuff that ordinary readers like me don’t properly appreciate, but am glad you’ve stuck with it.

    RL formerly in Glendale (7a2d64)

  113. At this point in the conflict I might find it offensive if the Ukrainians took a long range weapon we gave them and then hit a Moscow shopping mall with it but that is unlikely to happen because as much as we say there are not American boots on the ground? There are. I’d say Iron Dome is very close to being a strictly defensive weapon but descriptions of most weapons as offensive weapons or defensive weapons doesn’t work because I know I can take an AR15 from a defensive posture to an offensive posture in the blink of an eye. The weapon didn’t change at all, I did. In the the case of Iron Dome, I could change my posture, but it would be hard for me to attack Damascus with Iron Dome

    steveg (0fe6b2)

  114. RL,

    How does Ukraine drive Russia out of Ukraine without touching Russian soil? Even if you accept that what Russia CLAIMS is Russia, isn’t. Offensive weapons are weapons that push the enemy back. Defensive weapons just slow the enemy’s advance. Your formula in 3) is a recipe for Russian victory, no matter how you clutter it up with words.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  115. comfortable Americans gunning for war from the safety of a keyboard are certainly exhibiting an impressive strength of mind

    This is the same “chickenhawk” crap that has been thrown at people by those who want to pretend that wanting to defend others is somehow cowardice. Seems like projection to me.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  116. At this point in the conflict I might find it offensive if the Ukrainians took a long range weapon we gave them and then hit a Moscow shopping mall

    They won’t do that because it would hurt their cause, which rests almost entirely on maintaining the moral high ground. But suppose they hit inside the Kremlin walls?

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  117. Kevin,

    Perhaps I’m not being clear, if so I apologize. I support giving Ukraine offensive weapons and Ukraine using them to attack the Russian forces inside Russia. All I’m saying is I don’t necessarily question the motives of those who disagree with me. I can see that a person can argue in good faith that since Russia is a nuclear power it might be good to be careful about this and maybe not give Ukraine weapons that could be used for strikes inside Russia. I disagree with that argument – it’s like telling a boxer that you want him to win but he’s only allowed to block his opponent’s punches and not hit back — but don’t think someone is necessarily a pro-Putin shill for making it. We don’t actually know how Russia would react, and can’t in my view totally discount the possibility that they would use “tactical” nukes. But since we have to make a choice, I say let Ukraine have the tanks, jets etc it needs to drive the Russians out because getting whipped on the battlefield is language Putin understands and even he is probably not crazy enough to risk WWIII if he loses in Ukraine.

    RL formerly in Glendale (7a2d64)

  118. @115 As some one who has opposed are involment in vietnam, central america, iraq, afganistan I am hardly a chicken hawk. The people of ukraine are not asking us to do their fighting for them. We are not sending troops to do their fighting for them because our paid hirelings wont fight. Like lend lease to britian we are giving them the tools to fight back after we took their nukes away and gave them to russia, then pledge to protect them from russia. The chicken hawk crap is deservedly thrown at those draft dodgers who supported others going to war that they supported ;but wouldn’t go fight themselves like the neo-cons and anti communist conservatives. No one is asking us to fight in the ukraine just give them arms like we do around the world.

    asset (fd1f2b)

  119. RL,

    I understand what you are saying, but it’s just not possible to honestly support Ukraine AND want to so limit their ability to fight (a superior force!) that actual victory is impossible.

    The only certain thing about nuclear powers is that using nuclear weapons against a nuclear state cannot work. To suggest that Putin would actually do this is only an argument for killing Putin, as a man who would do this would do many many lesser stupid things that you cannot abide.

    The whole rationale of nuclear weapons since two countries had them was to make their use unthinkable. Anyone who actually understands what an H-bomb can do understands that there is no workable scenario of suing them.

    Remember, the Soviets closed up shop rather than use them.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  120. @118:

    There are a lot of people who were of draft age during Vietnam who would have served if called up. Whether they supported or opposed the war doesn’t matter. Whether they were called or not doesn’t matter. Whether they served in Vietnam or Germany doesn’t matter. Calling them chickenhawks because they won’t have to serve 50 years later is fighting words.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  121. Kevin,

    Not to quibble (or maybe this is quibbling, but it’s late and I’m tired), but we honestly supported S. Korea in 1950-53, with a toll of many thousands of American combat deaths, and our pilots engaged with and shot down Russians in their MIG 15s, but we still refrained from conventional strikes inside Russia or China partly because we didn’t want a nuclear confrontation with the USSR. Russia, through its N. Korean proxy, was clearly the aggressor in that war too and deserved to lose but we still adhered to certain limits. Although I’ve also heard that Eisenhower quietly threatened to use nukes to bring about the armistice.

    It’s possible to honestly support “limited” war — an obscene term when you think about, ask the families of the dead — but I don’t like it and don’t think we should be limiting the Ukrainians.

    RL formerly in Glendale (7a2d64)

  122. Not striking inside China was a severe mistake as the entire strategy up to that point relied on that possibility. The retreat from Chosin was terrible and cost a goodly portion of the lives lost. Perhaps coming to the conclusion we would not do that would have been a good thing to do before we put 10s of thousands of Marines in an untenable position if China crossed the Yalu.

    I don’t see that as a good example as it resulted in a catastrophic rout.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  123. Not arguing whether our policy of not striking inside China during the Korean War was right or wrong, but merely that we honestly supported S. Korea despite fighting a consciously limited war. Truman, Eisenhower, Gen. Ridgway et al may have been mistaken, but they weren’t pro-Stalin or pro-Mao because they didn’t authorize offensive strikes inside the aggressor countries.

    Glad you mentioned Chosin — from what I’ve read, an incredible feat by the USMC to escape intact that deserves much more recognition, and no thanks to MacArthur’s overconfidence.

    RL formerly in Glendale (7a2d64)

  124. @120 why do you defend chicken hawks? Example mitt romney led a pro-draft rally at yale questioning the patriotism of those who opposed the vietnam war. Mitt romney went on a mormon mission to the working girls of paris and the french riviera because as he knew mormon missionaries were not drafted. He could have enlisted to go fight in the war after his mission. Some did and a few died in vietnam ;but not chicken hawk mitt. In 2008 in Iowa a vietnam vet asked mitt if you and your sons support the Iraq war so much how come none of them are serving in Iraq? Mitt answer was they are serving their country by helping me get elected president! Dubya used is fathers influence to get out of going to vietnam and skate when he went awol from texas air ng. Also their were 2000 young in line for two air guard slots and dubya’s pop got him in when he was not even on the waiting list. This is when he drove to ny to get waitress he got pregnant an abortion. Cheney and the other neo-cons were just as bad.

    asset (fd1f2b)

  125. Our national interest is to see a stable Europe. It’s to not see a refugee crisis.It’s to not see a blockade of food coming from Ukraine. It’s to see a gradual defunding of the Russian war machine through sanctions and economic isolation. It’s to see the Russian war machine throttled, beaten back by more motivated forces, crushing its morale, and weakening its ability to lash out effectively in the near future. It’s to reinforce the rule of law that a peaceful country should not be attacked for specious territorial ambition and dreams of autocratic empire. It’s to fight against war crimes including abducting children, bombing hospitals, and raping civilians. And finally, it’s in our national interest to expose and weaken autocratic rulers who treat their citizens like canon fodder, who suppress political and individual liberty, who run a kleptocratic criminal empire that throttles opportunity, and whose primary export is misery and lies.

    Putin’s only strategy is to try and out-wait the west. Cultivate dissent inside the U.S. and allow it to erode commitment. Continue to exacerbate our differences and use that to create a sense of fatigue and impatience. Putin wants us to find excuses to abandon support and get back to ripping each other apart and playing politics. The answer is resolve. At some point Russians will love their country and countrymen more than Putin and his obsession. Let’s not abandon the course.

    AJ_Liberty (18ca73)

  126. More directly, in Korea the UN forces had won a complete victory over the North Koreans by late 1950 at the cost of about 8,300 American lives. Then China directly attacked a nuclear power and said nuclear power not only did not use nukes, but it refrained from attacking China, or its infrastructure, and allowed China a sanctuary within which to muster additional forces.

    Between the time that China entered the war and the time that the armistice was signed, 25,000 more Americans died. This does not argue very well for that kind of restraint.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  127. an incredible feat by the USMC to escape intact that deserves much more recognition

    Read Bob Drury’s “The Last Stand of Fox Company” about the guys who held a hill for a week to allow 10,000 Marines to escape.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  128. Sad!

    Russian President Vladimir Putin on Tuesday ordered officials to tighten control of the border with Ukraine after a spate of drone attacks that Russian authorities blamed on Kyiv delivered a new challenge to Moscow more than a year after its full-scale invasion of its neighbor.

    One drone crashed just 100 kilometers (60 miles) away from Moscow in an alarming development for Russian defenses.
    ……..
    The drone attacks caused no casualties but provoked a security stir as the war with Kyiv stretched into its second year last week.

    Ukrainian officials didn’t immediately claim responsibility for the attacks, but they similarly avoided directly acknowledging responsibility for previous strikes and sabotage while emphasizing Ukraine’s right to hit any target in Russia following the full-scale invasion that began last year.

    A flurry of drone attacks on Monday night and Tuesday morning targeted regions inside Russia along the border with Ukraine and deeper into the country, according to local Russian authorities.

    A drone fell near the village of Gubastovo, 100 kilometers (60 miles) from Moscow, Andrei Vorobyov, governor of the region surrounding the Russian capital, said in an online statement.
    ………..
    Pictures of the drone showed it was a Ukrainian-made type. It reportedly has a range of up to 800 kilometers (nearly 500 miles), but isn’t capable of carrying a large load of explosives.
    ……….
    Three drones also targeted Russia’s Belgorod region on Monday night, with one flying through an apartment window in its namesake capital, local authorities reported. Regional Gov. Vyacheslav Gladkov said the drones caused minor damage to buildings and cars but no casualties.
    ………
    While Ukrainian drone strikes on the Russian border regions of Bryansk and Belgorod that lie north of Ukraine’s Sumy region aren’t unusual, the hits on the Krasnodar and Adygea regions further south are noteworthy.
    ………
    While some Russian commentators described the drone attacks as an attempt by Ukraine to showcase its capability to strike areas deep behind the lines, foment tensions in Russia and rally the Ukrainian public, some Russian war bloggers described the raids as a possible rehearsal of a bigger, more ambitious attack.
    ………

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  129. As much as it pains me to say it, I don’t think we know Mitt Romney did his mission to avoid the draft. That window of time/mission is very typical for Mormons 18-22. Now that I am done being nice, I really don’t see enlisted people warming up to 2LT. Mitt, who would probably at best be referred to as “this f-ing guy”. He’d probably snitch on own his platoon. “while we were being overrun, I witnessed 18 year old PVC Nobody shoot two of our opponents in the back” In other words, fill in the name Mitt Romney below and then delete the rest of the text

    Second Lieutenant Galloway distinguished himself by exceptionally valorous actions on 31 January 1968 while leading the First Platoon of Company A on a search and destroy mission in the village of Dong Loch, Bien Hoa Province, Republic of Vietnam. Intelligence had indicated that a large, well-equipped enemy force had established heavily fortified positions in and around the village of Dong Loch, dangerously threatening the United States Forces complex at Bien Hoa. Lieutenant Galloway’s company was moving on line to sweep through the village when the First Platoon, the lead element of the friendly force, was subjected to intense, raking small arms and automatic weapons fire from the village. Lieutenant Galloway immediately brought his platoon on line and commenced returning fire. He personally exposed himself to the withering fusillade to direct his men, marking targets with a rocket launcher and with machine gun fire. As the battle raged, several men in the platoon were hit and unable to protect themselves. Lieutenant Galloway moved forward and about the battlefield, disregarding personal danger, pulling and carrying wounded men to positions of relative safety, treating those who required immediate life-saving attention. While evacuating these threatened comrades Lieutenant Galloway himself was wounded but refused evacuation, remaining with his men. As the battle grew in intensity, the field commander directed a limited withdrawal to permit the delivery of an airstrike on the enemy. Lieutenant Galloway, with total disregard for his own safety, moved from position to position alerting his men to the order. As the men pulled back, two were wounded by the accelerating rate of enemy fire. Lieutenant Galloway stayed with them, encouraging their movement to safety and personally providing protective fire and acting as a covering shield for the wounded men.

    steveg (dea415)

  130. comfortable Americans gunning for war from the safety of a keyboard are certainly exhibiting an impressive strength of mind

    good lord

    JF (e68188) — 2/27/2023 @ 7:02 pm

    I think your constant eagerness to be snarky got in the way of reading comprehension. I was talking about nuclear blackmail, and how to truly resist it people must be willing to die in a nuclear exchange.

    There is no safety from a nuclear exchange behind a keyboard. I don’t live in the boonies, and I certainly don’t have a bunker. It is the mindset of citizens behind their keyboards that allows leaders to take a firm stand when dealing with bullies.

    If we were all like you, we’d be putting pressure on our leaders to flinch in the face of nuclear blackmail, and autocratic, expansionist states would just gobble up the rest of the world as long as they don’t mess with the U.S. Good luck with that line of thinking.

    norcal (7345e5)

  131. Our national interest is to see a stable Europe.

    No. In the 21st century, it is in Europe’s interest to see a stable Europe.

    Our “national interest” will reach $1.4 trillion annually in 2033…

    The US is paying a record amount of interest on its debt. It’s only going to get worse

    https://www.kwwl.com/news/national/the-us-is-paying-a-record-amount-of-interest-on-its-debt-its-only-going/article_b84456c1-1052-55df-808b-1087165fa0ab.html

    DCSCA (a56042)

  132. Our national interest is to see a stable Europe.

    No. In the 21st century, it is in Europe’s interest to see a stable Europe.

    DCSCA (a56042) — 2/28/2023 @ 12:18 pm

    It’s both.

    norcal (7345e5)

  133. And yes I would vote for Mitt vs. Biden or Harris or even JB Pritzker. Not a knock on JB, his extended family have been good to me and have treated my employees graciously.
    I think I can assume if JB were elected President, the left wouldn’t be upset at all if the Secret Service was housed in their hotels… because not trump

    steveg (dea415)

  134. Our national interests skew very strongly to both a stable Europe and a stable Asia.
    It would be great if Germany and France would get together with UK and handle 90% of the load in Europe while we work with our Asian allies. Our Asian allies are tend to be less developed, less wealthy than our European allies and in many ways, China is a more dangerous adversary than the neo Soviets

    steveg (dea415)

  135. Matt Gaetz Cites Chinese Propaganda to Attack US Support of Ukraine:

    ……….
    In a House Armed Services Committee hearing, Gaetz used his time to criticize U.S. efforts to aid Ukraine’s defense against Russia’s invasion. The committee heard from several Pentagon officials, including Colin Kahl, the undersecretary of defense for policy.

    Gaetz began to grill Kahl, asking him whether the Pentagon currently has personnel in Ukraine. Kahl acknowledged a “couple dozen” Defense Department employees at the U.S. embassy in Kyiv, but no other personnel.

    Kahl declined to answer Gaetz’s question about whether CIA officials are “training folks in Ukraine,” stressing that he could only discuss such subjects in a classified setting. When Gaetz asked if the U.S. is supplying weapons to Ukraine’s Azov Battalion — a far-right nationalist paramilitary unit — Kahl responded: “Not that I’m aware of.”

    The Florida Republican then attempted to create a gotcha moment, entering into the record what he said was an investigative report by the Global Times, an English-language daily tabloid that’s a subsidiary of the Chinese Communist Party’s flagship newspaper The People’s Daily.

    Gaetz, who appeared unaware of the tabloid’s propaganda links, cited the report in claiming that the U.S. had supplied weapons to the Azov Battalion as early as 2018. Asked if he disagreed with the report, Kahl calmly responded: “I’m sorry, is this the Global Times from China?”

    “No, this is …” Gaetz said before looking at the report in front of him and conceding. “Yeah, it might be. Yeah.”
    ………
    “As a general matter, I don’t take Beijing’s propaganda at face value,” Kahl said, his right pointer finger pressed against his temple.

    After Kahl repeated the statement a second time, Gaetz conceded. “Fair enough, I would agree with that assessment,” he said.

    The Global Times is popularly referred to as “China’s Fox News.” ………
    ……….

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  136. What should we expect the Ukrainians to do with the DPR, LPR fighters and their extended families? Send them to Russia?

    steveg (8d5c81)

  137. What should we expect the Ukrainians to do with the DPR, LPR fighters and their extended families? Send them to Russia?

    steveg (8d5c81) — 2/28/2023 @ 4:42 pm

    Like the Ukrainian collaborators that moved when Ukraine regained occupied territories, they should self relocate.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  138. Self relocation has much less propaganda value than “genocide”. There will be reprisals.

    steveg (4df3e7)

  139. steveg (4df3e7) — 2/28/2023 @ 7:52 pm

    The political collaborators and others who enforced the occupation (aka traitors) deserve their fate. That is no different than what happened to French collaborators at the end of WW II, for example.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  140. The French are not an example for anything. What will very likely happen, likely already happening, in Ukraine is
    1) Collaborators are being picked off by “the resistance” right now.
    2) As the battle lines shift, some are running to the arms of Mother Russia right now.
    3) When the Ukrainians are in full control, some more will run to the arms of Mother Russia.
    4) Of those who voluntarily remain or are captured, the worst will be tried for their crimes.
    5) There will be a general amnesty for “mere” treason and sedition, as the nation tries to heal itself.

    nk (bb1548)

  141. PS 6) After a few years, there will be a second amnesty for those who were put on trial and convicted also.

    nk (bb1548)

  142. PPS
    7) If they take a page from the French, after 20 years there will have been no collaborators and everybody will have been in “the resistance”.

    nk (bb1548)

  143. PPPS
    8) If they take a page from the Russians, the heroic Ukrainian people will have the won the war all by themselves while the West used them as sacrificial pawns against Russia and Ukraine as a testing ground for its weapons.

    nk (bb1548)


Powered by WordPress.

Page loaded in: 0.1442 secs.