Patterico's Pontifications

2/15/2023

Constitutional Vanguard: Why I Am Backing Away from Twitter for Now

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 5:32 pm



Elon Musk disabling full Ukrainian access to his Starlink satellite system is the last straw for me. I’m pulling back from Twitter.

To me, and I assume to you, the war in Ukraine is a very simple issue of good vs. evil. It’s complicated only if you want to try to make it complicated, for partisan reasons. If you’re fair-minded and rational and not utterly blinded by tribal horseshit, you’re able to see that a country run by a madman dictator has invaded a peaceful democracy without any rational justification. The aggressor is committing brutal atrocities on noncombatants, and is engaged in an effort to commit genocide against the populace of the invaded democratic country. Because you read this newsletter, I’m going to assume you’re smart enough to understand all this, and I’m not going to waste my time rebutting ridiculous fringe arguments about the aggression of NATO, or responding to the various justifications that the Gleen Grenwalds and the Matt Taibbis of the world offer to justify this evil. If you want to be a useful idiot, go do it somewhere else. Here, the grownups are talking.

Musk has a choice here. He can be on the side of good or the side of evil. He is choosing the side of evil.

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61 Responses to “Constitutional Vanguard: Why I Am Backing Away from Twitter for Now”

  1. I can’t express in words how little I care about what DCSCA has to say about this. Especially since he won’t address any of the actual points I made in the piece.

    And yet he will contribute half of the comments to this thread.

    Patterico (9f38c9)

  2. Patterico, he doesn’t have to do so. He chooses to.

    As for me, thank you for your essay. Greg Lukianoff and Jonathan Haidt see things your way, too, about social media.

    Simon Jester (ef20c9)

  3. Twitter used to be owned by someone who wasn’t supplying any satellite internet service to Ukraine.

    That was when it was respectable, I guess.

    JF (fd3405)

  4. Our government of the United States has been known to place cellphone encryption under weapons export control. I don’t know what the Ukrainians are doing, and for sure I won’t take a Russian’s word for it, but if the Ukrainians really are repurposing Starlink from a communications system to a weapons guidance system, then Musk is right to be worried.

    As for WWIII, if Biden tells Putin, publicly, “Don’t threaten us with nukes, borscht-boy, we invented them!”, I’ll vote for him again in 2024.

    nk (bb1548)

  5. “It’s a giant time-waster.”

    Amen. I don’t have a Twitter account (and feel no compulsion to get one), but people do frequently link to it and you get a peripheral taste. Clearly there is some gold, though it’s unfortunately buried in what seems two tons of bull excrement. Mining for tiny ingots of gold not only wastes precious time, it forces you to inhale a lot of BS in the process. And this constant toxic dosing is not just bad for the mind, it’s bad for the soul — as you correctly note.

    Why have your mood dictated by largely anonymous malevolent actors intentionally, or even indirectly, pushing your buttons? It’s disappointing to see so many smart people compulsively jonesing for the next 240-word gotcha and the subsequent short-lived “winning” of the internet. Musk included. Go be creative. Read a book. Learn something. Why engage with this faux intellectual round pound? Though maybe I mean circle jerk?

    I think there are too many hot takes. I don’t need my brisket microwaved or flash fried, it deserves a nice thorough marination followed by slow cooking. Let it sit. Some things are worth it. Heck, most things are.

    I look forward to more old-school Patterico pieces. Personally I would like to see them find a home like at the Dispatch where serious people can bite in and savor their flavor. Write for your own enjoyment and release and not for mindless chatter or ephemeral likes. Is it better to have a few serious people engage or to get 100,000 one-handed typists belching and farting in unison?

    AJ_Liberty (5c3884)

  6. I have mixed feelings here. I can see how Musk may be concerned about Russia taking direct action against him. He may even have a credible threat, and Putin has been known to use hit men. Now, maybe Musk should man up and hire more protection, but it’s mighty easy for me here to call him out — Putin isn’t threatening me. At least not individually or directly.

    Musk being one of the richest people in the world, I can also kinda see how he doesn’t want the world getting blown up. But I think we all have an equal share in that.

    In the end, though, Musk grandstanded his support for Ukraine, now he’s having regrets. Maybe that will teach him a lesson about grandstanding. I’m betting not.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  7. All in all, I think that the best reason to quit Twitter is the same reason that’s always been there: what a crappy thought-gutter.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  8. You blind yourself to the truth that really is out there and easy to find. The fact that the same intel and media sources who slobbered about Trump and Russiagate and lied about Biden’s lap top are lining you and every other right thinking person up on the Ukraine Uber alles team is a flaw in your actual understanding. NATO made solemn guarantees and they lied. Ukraine is paying for those lies. This is a war engineered deliberately by the western leaders who really thought Russia would roll over and play dead when they pushed NATO right up to the Russian border. Big mistake.

    Curtis (fedce2)

  9. You blind yourself to the truth that really is out there and easy to find. The fact that the same intel and media sources who slobbered about Trump and Russiagate and lied about Biden’s lap top are lining you and every other right thinking person up on the Ukraine Uber alles team is a flaw in your actual understanding. NATO made solemn guarantees and they lied. Ukraine is paying for those lies. This is a war engineered deliberately by the western leaders who really thought Russia would roll over and play dead when they pushed NATO right up to the Russian border. Big mistake.

    How could I have blinded myself to such truths

    Patterico (9f38c9)

  10. I suspect that the Pentagon might have reminded Musk of all the other ways they were paying him. I am not a twitteratti, but I suspect it’s like anything else, best used in moderation.

    @JF@3 I mean, Jack Dorsey doesn’t have a satellite service to provide. I suppose you could say that neither Dorsey nor Musk are providing bread to Ukraine and that makes them bad people, but since neither of them has a bread company, that also wouldn’t make sense.

    @Curtis@8 You can’t shoot me in my own house and blame it on me, even if I’m having dinner with the person you got in a fight with last night. Ukraine made zero aggressive moves at Russia, Russia made a big aggressive move against Ukraine and I don’t need any reporters of any flavor to tell me who the aggressor was. I can see it with my own lyin’ eyes.

    Nic (896fdf)

  11. Is curtis new? russian bot? Has he posted here on other subjects? I am suspicious.

    asset (77101c)

  12. I sympathize with Patterico’s frustration but feel like there must be some important consideration I’m missing. Putin is a vicious aggressor who must be stopped. Musk stepped up to help Ukraine in a vital area, without being under any obvious compulsion to do so. The Ukrainian government apparently was and is grateful for that help. So shouldn’t Musk be applauded? Of course he could do more but then so could a lot of others who have been very publicly reluctant to do so. The foot dragging over supplying the Ukrainians with tanks made no sense to me — a Russian soldier killed by a shell from a Leopard tank is not any deader than one killed by Himars, so if the West can supply the one, why not also supply the other? My point is that Musk has acted much better than most and no worse than many Western governments so I don’t understand why he’s being singled out. I am not trying to imply that Patterico is in any way being unfair, but only that I don’t really understand it. This is admittedly an imperfect analogy but giving up Twitter because of Musk’s refusal to do more for Ukraine seems akin to refusing to shop at TJ’s or Aldie because it’s a German company and the Germans really haven’t done enough for Ukraine either.

    RL formerly in Glendale (48bc71)

  13. @1. Nah. Money talks:

    Elon Musk is on the cusp of being the world’s richest man again after Tesla stock’s huge rebound – Feb 10, 2023

    https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/stocks/elon-musk-net-worth-world-richest-man-tesla-stock-rebound-2023-2

    “Grown-ups” pay their way through life. A simplistic pitch of ‘good vs. evil’ has a simple response: pay for it. War bonds were sold in ‘good vs. evil’ clashes labeled WW1, WW2; taxes were raised to finance decades of a Cold War. So rather than continuing to borrow billions and giving it away freely, peddle Ukrainian Freedom Fighter War Bonds. A wealthy fella like Elon could buy quite a few.

    Glad to see you disengaging from Twitter.

    Biden offered Elon Musk a rare bit of praise after Tesla agreed to open up its charging network to rivals by the end of 2024

    ‘On Wednesday, Musk received rare praise from US President Joe Biden after Tesla agreed to open at least 7,500 of its charging stations to other electric vehicles by the end of 2024. Tesla’s chargers have only been accessible to the brand’s cars.’ – https://www.businessinsider.com/joe-biden-elon-musk-twitter-praise-tesla-charging-network-2023-2

    DCSCA (6b03b3)

  14. RL, I think Patterico questions Musk’s motivation. (1) Is it that he was snubbed by Ukraine about his peace plan and this is a cold and childish response? (2) Is it that Musk wants to be paid, by someone, to provide the satellite service when others are banking big coin for smaller contributions? (3) Is it that Musk has a genuine security concern for either his system or his personal safety? (4) Is he afraid that he might inadvertently escalate and lengthen the war? (5) Does Musk believe that his satellite service is giving Ukraine an advantage that might allow it to win whereas he personally wants a result where Russia gets something out of the conflict? Finally, mix in that more could be going on in the background and some of this is just intentional deception.

    I sense Patterico believes it’s more 1-2-5 and less 3-4. He seems to also view this as a tipping point event, rather than the main cause. I get that if it is even a possibility that Musk is playing puerile games or looking to help Putin, then, in albeit a small way, stop supporting Musk’s economic world. But it still seems like Patterico had one foot out of Twitter’s door already. It’s just not a healthy habit and it’s stealing time from other pursuits. If it’s becoming more compulsion and less rewarding, why not use this to break its hold?

    AJ_Liberty (5c3884)

  15. How could I have blinded myself to such truths

    I blind myself to so many truths all the time. So much truth on this Internet thing that one has to sort through. I can’t decide about chemtrails, or microchips in my vaccine, or how they are tracking by RFID cards from space. It’s all so confusing.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  16. 14. I think it’s close to 1-2-5 except I think he doesn’t care about his peace plan being snubbed, for now, by Ukraine; he doesn’t want his possible future peace plans snubbed by Russia

    Fear of economic retaliation, by countries other than Russia, like maybe China, is also a possibility. He may also have bought into some of the pro-Russian propaganda.

    He is helping Ukraine – he’s doing nothing to help Russia – but he wants to limit it to humanitarian aid.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d0cae)

  17. Must should not rely on the gratitude of the West for all he has already done and is still doing for Ukraine. Gratitude is forgotten the moment it’s inconvenient.

    To repeat (and clarify) my prior comment @4, Musk has run afoul of the federal government a number of times, cleared in one case only a couple of weeks ago. He has a right to worry that they might label Starlink as weapons technology and mess with it, and him personally, in all the ways a government can. And not only our government. Every country where Starlink does business.

    nk (bb1548)

  18. We really want private citizens to declare war? He’s involved in humanitarian aid. He wants to avoid being a general in a war. I don’t blame him.

    It seems many want him to stick his neck on the chopping block and use his vast resources while they do so from the comfort of their own homes.

    Why isn’t the USA giving Ukraine satellite access? Might be a security risk, but the goal is to win, right?

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  19. No is right. Export controls would destroy the Starlink biz plan.

    Kevin M (e68a52)

  20. Nk damn spellchecker

    Kevin M (e68a52)

  21. NATO made solemn guarantees and they lied.

    No, they didn’t. Gorbachev was in the room where it happened. So was Zoellick. The liar is Putin, for lying that such promise was made. I’ll just say that someone is blind…

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  22. During his presidential campaign, Zelenskyy said that he wanted to begin negotiations with Russia.

    Jim Miller (f29931)

  23. This is how Putin negotiates

    Kevin M (e68a52)

  24. He is helping Ukraine – he’s doing nothing to help Russia

    Except repeating Russian propaganda.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  25. Those who see Starlink’s cut off of support to Ukraine as a business decision are also probably the same ones who want to declare Facebook and other social media as common carriers subject to government regulation.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  26. Those who see Starlink’s cut off of support to Ukraine

    Musk hasn’t cut off support at all. He’s getting flack because he isn’t doing more than he’s already provided.

    I suspect the government desperately wants that technology (I wouldn’t be surprised if In-Q-Tel’s reptilian grasp was involved with its development), but they can’t justify nationalizing it unless Musk treats it as a weapons system. Hence, why David Frum was trying to bluff Musk into doing so a few months ago by insinuating the government would take it from him anyway. That man is nothing more than a parrot, and he wouldn’t have said that if it wasn’t whispered in his ear already by some .gov goon.

    Factory Working Orphan (548647)

  27. Rip:

    Why don’t you ask nk that question…

    Appalled (cc1521)

  28. Those who see Starlink’s cut off of support to Ukraine as a business decision

    I don’t know if Musk is concerned that a weaponized demonstration of his platform might lead to export controls, but he should be. The NSA tried very hard to make strong encryption illegal, and we’d not have much internet commerce had they succeeded.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  29. My experience with In-Q-Tel was that they WANTED commercial spinoffs of the things they backed for a number of different reasons, not the least of which was a reduced dependence upon their funding.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  30. Rip:

    Why don’t you ask nk that question…

    Appalled (cc1521) — 2/16/2023 @ 12:15 pm

    There was no question, it was a statement of opinion.

    Rip Murdock (d19d0a)

  31. He’s getting flack because he isn’t doing more than he’s already provided.

    SpaceX begs to differ, as shown by quotes set forth in my piece, which I recommend that you read.

    Patterico (a87c3d)

  32. To repeat (and clarify) my prior comment @4, Musk has run afoul of the federal government a number of times, cleared in one case only a couple of weeks ago. He has a right to worry that they might label Starlink as weapons technology and mess with it, and him personally, in all the ways a government can

    You think Mush would try to curry favor with the federal authorities by continuing Starlink services to Ukraine. Certainly any Russian attack on Starlink satellites (which is all bluster anyway) could be considered an attack against the United States.

    Rip Murdock (d19d0a)

  33. Mush=Musk

    Rip Murdock (d19d0a)

  34. I’m not much of a twitterer. I mainly retweet stuff as a marker, and the folks I follow are either funny or have some expertise in their fields, which has really helped in understanding a fluid situation like Ukraine.
    I don’t follow Musk.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  35. @23. This is how Putin negotiates

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCCTf17ZiIs

    Twenty Years of Putin Playing the West in 3 Minutes | NYT Opinion

    ‘Vladimir Putin, especially these days, is widely reviled. To some he’s a war criminal, to others he’s a dictator, and to many he’s simply a very bad man. But it wasn’t always this way.

    We trawled through video footage from 20 years of international summits, speeches and news conferences and discovered a man who once basked in high regard: the one who went fishing and dancing with George W. Bush, who fell into warm embraces with Tony Blair and whose jokes had NATO’s leaders rolling on the floor with laughter. As the Opinion Video starkly reveals, Western leaders once considered Vladimir Putin not just an ally, but also, apparently, a friend.

    Even if they were simply giving him the benefit of the doubt for political purposes, they were taking a naïve gamble of historic proportions: Be nice to Putin, and maybe he would be nice back. It’s true that this brand of personal diplomacy scored some significant security victories. Arms control treaties were signed, and Putin allowed U.S. jets to strike the Taliban from bases in Russia’s satellite states.

    But as Russian tanks rolled into Georgia in August 2008, Bush learned that his eight-year friendship with the Russian leader had earned him zero leverage over Putin’s territorial ambitions. While it’s debatable whether Western governments could have foreseen the bloody horizon of Putin’s vision, let’s now be clear about one thing: Personal diplomacy doesn’t work when you need it most.’ -NYTimes.com

    … and his siren song; ‘Blueberry Hill’ of course:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbkGkr0iceI

    DCSCA (e74a4e)

  36. Rip,

    Your assertion is that folks who support Starlink’s decision to limit the Ukraine military’s access to that platform are people who believe in designating Facebook, Twitter and YouTube as a common carriers (so we all have full access to the Donald at all times no matter what.)

    I don’t think nk fits in that category. I know I don’t.

    Appalled (cc1521)

  37. I think Musk has a fiduciary responsibility to SpaceX investors and is leveraging the Pentagon to pay and protect. SpaceX recently announced its first quarter ever of being cash flow positive and also said they think SpaceX could see a profit for this next fiscal year. SpaceX also just lost 40 of its SpaceX satellites to geomagnetic storm via a pulse from a solar flare.

    Musk once said SpaceX Starlink would be a success if it did not fall into bankruptcy because every other entity in this business has fallen into bankruptcy. I would like to see SpaceX continue to help Ukraine, but SpaceX should be paid and protected (by protected, we’d have a dim view of any offensive actions against SpaceX satellites or its caviar catering shuttle to the ISS) If the Pentagon contributes to SpaceX earning a profit this year via Starlink over Ukraine, great. This would be the Pentagon purchasing a proven service, not at all like the litany of disasters they’ve thrown trillions at in the past

    steveg (c651a7)

  38. @37. Here’s a profile of SpaceX; the firm, executives, BoD and investors:

    SpaceX Overview

    https://pitchbook.com/profiles/company/46488-07#investors

    DCSCA (e74a4e)

  39. Rip,

    Your assertion is that folks who support Starlink’s decision to limit the Ukraine military’s access to that platform are people who believe in designating Facebook, Twitter and YouTube as a common carriers (so we all have full access to the Donald at all times no matter what.)

    I don’t think nk fits in that category. I know I don’t.

    Appalled (cc1521) — 2/16/2023 @ 2:05 pm

    I don’t know why you think I was responding to nk; I would have quoted nk’s post if I was. I wasn’t.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  40. Rip,

    I think your blanket assertion was very wrong. I used examples to show that was so. Nk was the easy to see example.

    Now we are done, I hope.

    Appalled (cb0e71)

  41. Whatever.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  42. Borscht Boy sounds more like a Trump tweet from 2017

    steveg (c651a7)

  43. This one gives more info for free. Scroll down for the news

    https://www.crunchbase.com/funding_round/space-exploration-technologies-private-equity–5739b63b

    Fintel used to give out info on one company a month for free, I subscribe now and don’t know what goes on now

    steveg (c651a7)

  44. Rip also mischaracterizes those who favor less online censorship as wanting services to be “regulated” (a loaded term that normally does not mean “loosen controls”).

    Coincidentally:

    Bipartisan bill would require that social networks have ‘clear’ content policies

    The Internet PACT Act would … amend the Communications Decency Act’s Section 230 to require that “large” platforms pull content within four days if deemed illegal by courts. Those big services would need systems to handle complaints and appeals, and users would need to be notified of any decisions regarding their content within three weeks. Smaller providers would have “more flexibility” in addressing complaints and illegal content, according to the senators.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  45. I’m pretty sure Rip aimed that at me, as misguided as it was, and misstating my position as he usually does.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  46. Certainly any Russian attack on Starlink satellites (which is all bluster anyway)

    It would be like cannonballs into a mud fort. Musk has more Starlink sats operating than the world’s combined powers have anti-sat weapons. By orders of magnitude.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  47. The Globalstar and Iridium sat phone systems both exist and some say that agencies of the US government have a hand in running them. But of course they aren’t generalized internet platforms.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  48. As ever, we can’t know people’s hearts and minds, but we can draw reasonable inferences from their public pronouncements. Maybe, as some here have suggested, Elon’s reticence is driven by fear for his family’s and/or his own personal security, by fiduciary duty to his shareholders (that would be a first) and/or by other arguably legitimate concerns. But if those are indeed his reasons, then parroting Putin talking points is a terrible way to advertise it. When someone publicly advocates the position of one side in a binary conflict, I don’t think it’s unfair to suspect that that’s where his sympathies lie, and that consequently that’s what motivates his choices when they further those ends.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  49. If I had to guess, I’d say that Elon wants to operate in Russia in the future.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  50. I’m pretty sure Rip aimed that at me, as misguided as it was, and misstating my position as he usually does.

    Kevin M (1ea396) — 2/16/2023 @ 4:10 pm

    My comment wasn’t aimed at anyone in particular. If it was, I would have said so.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  51. Whether you like Musk or not, he knows how to be the world’s richest man. He’s probably ten steps ahead of us on all we have been talking about.

    nk (bb1548)

  52. Musk’s statements are possibly just affording him plausible deniability.

    In other words, maybe he’s helping the Ukrainians to the fullest extent, but stating otherwise for some reason.

    International intrigue is way above my pay grade.

    norcal (7345e5)

  53. https://som.yale.edu/story/2022/over-1000-companies-have-curtailed-operations-russia-some-remain

    As of February 16, 2023:

    “…choosing the side of evil…” U.S. firms RATED ‘F’ for still operating in Russia:

    Align Technology
    Carl’s Jr. | CLK
    Caterpillar
    Cloudflare
    Fleetcor
    Hard Rock Café
    Huntsman Corp.
    IQVIA
    Lifestyle Production Group
    Patreon
    Quicksilver
    Riot Games
    Sbarro Pizza
    Signet Armorite
    Stryker
    Tenneco
    TGI Friday’s
    Titan International
    Tom Ford
    Tupperware
    Valve
    Zimmer Biomet

    Leave it to you to research their annual revenue. Caterpillar, Tennaco & even Hard Rock are attention getter$. Keep it in mind the next time you chow down on a burger and fries at an evil Carl’s Jr., too.

    DCSCA (51d4d8)

  54. Corruption in procurement? In Russia? No way.
    A woman in the Western Army Military Financial office jumped out a window, some say to avoid being arrested. I guess the rash of folks falling out of windows can also be explained by mid level grifters diving out the window when the arresting brigade shows up

    Here is another example of graft: Older Russian winter uniforms are substandard, cold drafty, and the cut puts seams in annoying places. So the top Russian general Shoigu signed a new uniform manufacturer: Gardarika

    Gardarika was established in March 2022. 66% of the company is owned by 22-year-old Artyom Stepanenko, the son of the deputy head of the Federal Property Management Agency and former governor of the Yaroslavl region, Dmitry Stepanenko.
    Artyom Stepanenko appears to have no previous background in clothing manufacture. His only previous claims to fame were in crashing two expensive cars – a $100,000 Tesla and a Mercedes – and driving off without stopping in the second incident.
    Russian social media users have criticised Gardarika for charging inexplicably high prices for its products. Gardarika charges 4,500 rubles ($60) for a military cap.

    This is from work done by @ChrisO_wiki on Twitter

    steveg (e0ecc1)

  55. SpaceX begs to differ, as shown by quotes set forth in my piece, which I recommend that you read.

    Patterico (a87c3d) — 2/16/2023 @ 12:32 pm

    It sounds as if that’s exactly like what you’re upset about, though–that he’s not doing more than what he’s already providing.

    If the US is so set to give Ukraine that kind of satellite access, they can give them the keys to what they already own. They don’t need to force a private citizen to do so with his own property when he’s already making his own contributions.

    Factory Working Orphan (9ac9cf)

  56. Interesting that FWO sees the US as “they”. (For me the US is “we”.)

    Perhaps it’s just a writing mistake.

    Jim Miller (f29931)

  57. Interesting that FWO sees the US as “they”. (For me the US is “we”.)

    Perhaps it’s just a writing mistake.

    Jim Miller (f29931) — 2/17/2023 @ 8:06 am

    Solipsists tend to believe that their opinions represent the entire population of a country.

    Factory Working Orphan (60de73)

  58. Referring to our country as “we” or “us” isn’t solipsism. Assuming that identity only when the country implements one’s own policy preferences is a lot closer.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  59. @52

    Musk’s statements are possibly just affording him plausible deniability.

    In other words, maybe he’s helping the Ukrainians to the fullest extent, but stating otherwise for some reason.

    International intrigue is way above my pay grade.

    norcal (7345e5) — 2/16/2023 @ 5:25 pm

    That’s where I’m at.

    But I also think it could simply be a “ploy” on his part to have the US government (or NATO) start footing the bill more. IF Starlink being the defacto internet backbone for Ukraine military, it makes sense for some government entity to foot the bill and be the “Face” of such service than Musk’s company footing the bill.

    Does Raytheon spend their own money supplying firearms/missiles to this conflict? Or, is there a customer (ie, US/NATO) providing the funding?

    whembly (d116f3)

  60. Referring to our country as “we” or “us” isn’t solipsism. Assuming that identity only when the country implements one’s own policy preferences is a lot closer.

    lurker (cd7cd4) — 2/17/2023 @ 1:35 pm

    It isn’t any different than talking about a sports team–the terms are interchangeable. Regardless, anyone with at least two brain cells to rub together could infer the plain meaning.

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d)

  61. Sure. Identifying with our country is just like wearing the jersey of your local pickleball team. You go with that.

    lurker (cd7cd4)


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