Patterico's Pontifications

1/24/2023

Documents Marked As Classified Discovered At The Pence Residence

Filed under: General — Dana @ 3:23 pm



[guest post by Dana]

From CNN :

A lawyer for former Vice President Mike Pence discovered about a dozen documents marked as classified at Pence’s Indiana home last week, and he has turned those classified records over to the FBI, multiple sources familiar with the matter told CNN.

The FBI and the Justice Department’s National Security Division have launched a review of the documents and how they ended up in Pence’s house in Indiana.

At this point, we don’t know what the documents concern or their level of classification. Pence’s team is said to have followed protocol with the discovery.

From Pence’s representative:

“Vice President Pence was unaware of the existence of sensitive or classified documents at his personal residence,” Jacob wrote. “Vice President Pence understands the high importance of protecting sensitive and classified information and stands ready and willing to cooperate fully with the National Archives and any appropriate inquiry.”

The classified material was stored in boxes that first went to Pence’s temporary home in Virginia before they were moved to Indiana..The boxes were not in a secure area, but they were taped up and were not believed to have been opened since they were packed, according to Pence’s attorney. Once the classified documents were discovered, the sources said they were placed inside a safe located in the house.

Also, there is this:

In November, Pence was asked by ABC News at his Indiana home whether he had taken any classified documents from the White House.

“I did not,” Pence responded.

“Well, there’d be no reason to have classified documents, particularly if they were in an unprotected area,” Pence continued.

The question now becomes: Which elected government executives (or former executives) *don’t* have a few classified documents stashed somewhere in their homes? I’m not talking about 300 classified documents intentionally taken to one’s private residence, or where staff was instructed to move said classified documents after a DOJ subpoena was issued for their return, and where surveillance footage confirmed the removal of boxes storing the documents…

–Dana

93 Responses to “Documents Marked As Classified Discovered At The Pence Residence”

  1. Hello.

    Dana (1225fc)

  2. Before he was VP and governor of Indiana- Pence served in Congress from 2001 to 2013 on the following committees:

    107th Congress (2001–2003): Agriculture, Judiciary, Small Business
    108th Congress (2003–2005): Agriculture, International Relations, Judiciary
    109th Congress (2005–2007): Agriculture, International Relations, Judiciary
    110th Congress (2007–2009): Foreign Affairs, Judiciary, Select Committee to Investigate the Voting Irregularities of August 2, 2007 (Ranking Member)
    111th Congress (2009–2011): Foreign Affairs
    112th Congress (2011–2013): Foreign Affairs, Judiciary

    So what are the dates on these classified documents found -so far; were they swiped during his VP days– or when on House committee assignments- particularly those associated w/international and foreign policy matters.

    That aside, it is yet another example of sloppy management- [just like the berobed SCOTUS bureaucrats losing track of their files as well]… the kind of sloppiness you’d get fired for in the private sector. And a likely glaring example of way too much stuff stamped ‘classified’ that doesn’t need to be- if only to maintain the ‘information is power’ hold.

    And consider this w/all of these docs incidents– we’re talking here about physical documents: papers.

    What about digital ‘documents?’ How much of classified stuff is laying around on some forgotten thumb drive in some desk drawer?

    DCSCA (988c7c)

  3. Trump Gives Pence a Mulligan?

    Former President Donald Trump was quick to respond to reports that classified documents were found at former Vice President Mike Pence’s home in Indiana.

    Trump, who is dealing with the fallout of his own classified documents scandal, took to Truth Social to say: “Mike Pence is an innocent man. He never did anything knowingly dishonest in his life. Leave him alone!!!”

    Given how Trump’s relationship with Pence deteriorated in the wake of the Jan. 6 Capitol riot and his vice president’s refusal to change the Electoral College vote, it’s unclear if Trump was being sincere or sarcastic with his message.
    ………

    TrumpWorld not so forgiving…….

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  4. fox news hunter’s stripper girl friend say she helped him move document boxes from garage to inside the house. Hunter stored boxes at bo;s wife house while he was shacked up with her. Harmee dillion NY Post on tucker says top secret material found on hunter lap top e-mail.

    asset (c880e3)

  5. Alternatively …..

    Trump Angrily Orders Pence to Return All Classified Documents to Mar-a-Lago
    …….
    An incandescently angry Trump addressed the media at his Palm Beach home and accused his former running mate of being “the lowest form of life” for taking documents “that were rightfully mine.”

    “Mike Pence took documents from the White House without asking me first if I wanted to take them,” he said. “Mike Pence kept me from having a complete collection of documents, and that, quite frankly, is a disgrace.”
    ……..

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  6. Does anybody know how many little people are doing time for having possession of secret material? I know at least woman who is doing time for taking top secret document home.

    asset (c880e3)

  7. fox news hunter’s stripper girl friend say she helped him move document boxes from garage to inside the house…

    Hmmm, well, POTUS Jimma did consult w/daughter Amy on the issue of nuclear weapons, too… 😉

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7spOEfRN-0

    DCSCA (988c7c)

  8. He was also asked by CBS about two weeks ago. He said his staff had carefully packed. But we don’t know that they came there at the end of the Administration.

    They are probably intermingled all the time, and it is impossible to separate them out later. But keeping a strict inventory might make it hard for top officials to do their job.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  9. Does anybody know how many little people are doing time for having possession of secret material? I know at least woman who is doing time for taking top secret document home.

    asset (c880e3) — 1/24/2023 @ 4:26 pm

    Since 2005, the FBI and the Justice Department have launched at least 11 such investigations, some targeting high-profile former U.S. officials, including a former national security adviser and a former CIA director.

    Others who have been prosecuted and who have pleaded guilty or were convicted include Defense Department employees, defense contractors and employees or contractors with the FBI, the CIA and the National Security Agency.

    Source

    See also here and here for other prosecutions.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  10. Maybe every single fed employee needs to have their house searched for classified material at this point.

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d)

  11. @10. You’d think this sort of thing would be easy to keep track of, too. Major firms have document counters on xerox machines, cameras, docs can be coded w/scans and microchipped… we can even keep track of lost pets now…

    It’s a two-tiered problem– lax, sloppy management– the kind that gats you fired in the private sector-and the basic fact that government “classifies” too many documents for mundane reasons… but the system is what it is… This ‘sources and methods’ excuse really doesn’t hold up for documents from, say, the JFK assassination 60 years ago or the Earhart disappearance in thre 1930s and so on. It’s more a CYA thing for bumbling bureaucrats at various agencies who may have screwed up and want it kept under wraps.

    DCSCA (988c7c)

  12. Sooner than later it will be easier to list the people who have not violated document protection laws.
    Prosecutions/Impeachments are for the little people and Trump- which is why the little people vote for him. Hillary Clintons lawyers got to decide which emails were relevant to an investigation. My lawyer gets no such treatment. It is a double standard, and low to mid low class snaggle toothed Cletus’ of America hate the people involved the double standard game. No law enforcement person is ever going to (nor should they) give the lawyers of the Wild & Wonderful Whites of West Virginia first three passes at a search of the trailer. Hillary’s lawyers got to decide what the DOJ got and the DOJ acted like they were honored to be included on the ass end

    steveg (46e979)

  13. The question now becomes: Which elected government executives (or former executives) *don’t* have a few classified documents stashed somewhere in their homes?

    well, I guess we won’t be hearing any more “no one is above the law” lectures

    JF (036c60)

  14. Somewhere someone is making a bundle offering classified document searches to former high officials. Who’s next? Pompeo? Meadows? Mulvaney?

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  15. This problem is a symptom of Master of the World Disease. They may not be above the law, but, by God, they are above pesky little rules.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  16. This is getting ridiculous. Does *nobody* in Washington care about classified information?

    aphrael (f4b598)

  17. @16. This is getting ridiculous. Does *nobody* in Washington care about classified information?

    There’s a lot of stuff they just don’t need to keep classified- and the stuff that does finally get declassified is… amusing. But why…. why keep this sort of stuff secret for a century…

    Secret Writing: CIA’s Oldest Classified Documents

    [In 2011,] the CIA declassified the US Government’s six oldest classified documents, dating from 1917 and 1918. These documents, which describe secret writing techniques and are housed at the National Archives, are believed to be the only remaining classified documents from the World War I era. Documents describing secret writing fall under the CIA’s purview to declassify.

    “These documents remained classified for nearly a century until recent advancements in technology made it possible to release them,” former CIA Director Leon Panetta said during the document’s release 2011. “When historical information is no longer sensitive, we take seriously our responsibility to share it with the American people.”

    One document outlines the chemicals and techniques necessary for developing certain types of secret writing ink and a method for opening sealed letters without detection. Another memorandum dated June 14, 1918–written in French–reveals the formula the German’s used to produce invisible ink.’

    https://www.cia.gov/stories/story/secret-writing-cias-oldest-classified-documents/

    Seriously. “Invisible ink…” you knew how to make and use it as a kid; lemon juice.

    DCSCA (c10d4b)

  18. He didn’t bother to check for documents when his former boss was under fire, but now that Biden is…

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  19. On my part, I think internet savants who equate Pence, Biden and even Trump with Bradley Manning, Edward Snowden and Reality Winner need to go back to kindergarten and learn why “cat” is spelled c-a-t and “dog” is spelled d-o-g.

    nk (337bdb)

  20. The first group did it for personal gain and the second group did it to expose the unconstitutional activities of our government?

    kaf (559bca)

  21. The first group did it in the service of America (as humanly imperfect as that may at times be), and the second group did it to hurt America.

    It could be that I’m getting old or was drunk at the time, but I have no recollection of voting for (or against) Manning, Snowden, or Winter for Keeper of America’s Conscience.

    nk (bb1548)

  22. In what way was Biden stealing classified documents while a Senator “in service to America”? That seems a stretch.

    kaf (559bca)

  23. I wouldn’t be surprised if even Bush, the Clintons, and Obama have instructed their lawyers to search every nook and cranny of their properties, just in case…

    Dana (1225fc)

  24. In what way was Biden stealing classified documents

    Oh, my! Senators need to STEAL classified documents? They don’t have access to them, subject to at least keeping them secure and returning them when they’re done with them, if they need them to carry out their duties?

    That’s terrible! It’s just not right! They’ve got to change that practice, right away. Think of oversight! Think of passing a budget for the relevant agencies! Think of the children!

    nk (bb1548)

  25. Just saw this after posting my comment at 23:

    Former Presidents George H.W. Bush, Bill Clinton, George W. Bush and Barack Obama turned over their classified records to the National Archives upon leaving office, representatives for each of the four leaders told CNN…None of the former presidents’ representatives said they were conducting additional searches of homes or offices where documents could potentially be stored…Instead, they reiterated the practices those leaders followed when departing the White House in 1993, 2001, 2009 and 2017…“All of President Clinton’s classified materials were properly turned over to NARA in accordance with the Presidential Records Act,” said Clinton’s office…Bush and Obama followed the same practice, their representatives said, turning over both classified and unclassified material to the National Archives…A source familiar with the Archives told CNN that they did not remember former President Jimmy Carter finding any stray classified documents.

    Dana (1225fc)

  26. A source familiar with the Archives told CNN that they did not remember former President Jimmy Carter finding any stray classified documents.

    Former President Jimmy Carter found classified materials at his home in Plains, Georgia, on at least one occasion and returned them to the National Archives, according to the same person who spoke of regular occurrences of mishandled documents. The person did not provide details on the timing of the discovery.

    https://www.wlwt.com/article/classified-records-pose-conundrum-stretching-back-to-carter/42644818#

    DCSCA (c10d4b)

  27. “subject to keeping them secure”

    Leaving them laying around their homes for years is not securing them in accordance with the applicable government rules.

    “ returning them when they’re done with them”. presumably Senators should return all classified documents they were keeping at home when they are no longer a Senator.

    I wonder if Joe’s crack addled son had access to them while he was on the payroll of various Ukrainian and Chinese companies.

    kaf (559bca)

  28. kaf, I was aware when I wrote them that the provisos I attached in my 24 and you noted in your 27 were not the expected internet response to a charge that Biden “stole” the documents, but it’s Wednesday.

    nk (bb1548)

  29. This is getting ridiculous. Does *nobody* in Washington care about classified information?

    The bosses don’t think the rules apply to them.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  30. The first group did it for personal gain and the second group did it to expose the unconstitutional activities of our government?

    The first group did it by accident and the second group by premeditated espionage.

    And even if you think they were justified, they should still expect (and accept) the lawful punishment as a result.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  31. Literally millions of US citizens can read — and create — classified documents.

    That some are not protected as they should be is inevitable.

    That Mike Pence and Joe Biden erred that way strikes me as more failures of management than anything else. Obviously, they needed better “office managers” — and probably still need them.

    Jim Miller (f29931)

  32. well, I guess we won’t be hearing any more “no one is above the law” lectures

    JF (036c60) — 1/24/2023 @ 7:36 pm

    Yep. We went from “DT needs to be sent to SuperMax for this” to “you can’t expect honest civil servants to follow all of these rules” at a predictable speed.

    frosty (0485c2)

  33. Is it legitimate now to ask, what’s buried in Grant’s Tomb?! 😉

    DCSCA (335484)

  34. kaf (559bca) — 1/25/2023 @ 8:33 am

    “ returning them when they’re done with them”. presumably Senators should return all classified documents they were keeping at home when they are no longer a Senator.

    If you carefully go over the statement that was released about items the government took from Biden’s home, it wasn’t that any of the documents marked classified dated from Biden’s time in the Senate; it was, like with Trump, when they found a classified document (or for that matter a non-classified document that they considered a government record, which undoubtedly far outnumbered the classified documents, only they didn’t enumerate them or even mention them at all but we know they would take anything that they thought belonged in the National Archives according to the Presidential Records Act of 1978) they took not only it, but the material surrounding it.

    And nobody is issuing any further statements, so the misimpression was not corrected.

    Sammy Finkelman (a3950e)

  35. @21 wrong they helped America. How is hunter biden’s using classified documents he got from “the big guy” on his lap top e-mail to business partner in service to America?

    asset (4b2905)

  36. Yep. We went from “DT needs to be sent to SuperMax for this” to “you can’t expect honest civil servants to follow all of these rules” at a predictable speed.

    frosty (0485c2) — 1/25/2023 @ 12:04 pm

    Are you really blind to the difference between what we know about Trump’s behavior and what we know about Biden’s, and why the former is far more egregious than the latter?

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  37. *and what we know about Biden’s and Pence’s*

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  38. @36

    Are you really blind to the difference between what we know about Trump’s behavior and what we know about Biden’s, and why the former is far more egregious than the latter?

    lurker (cd7cd4) — 1/25/2023 @ 2:46 pm

    What’s more egregious?

    Not giving it back, whilst still secured ala Trump?

    Or

    Ignoring proper classification handling laws for decades, leaving oodles of opportunities to leakage ala Biden?

    The former is Trump being a big baby, and having attorneys making dumb mistakes.

    The latter has been flaunting handling laws over decades, fueling suspicions of foreign influence conspiracies.

    whembly (d116f3)

  39. Did the Clinton documents include the ones Sandy Berger stole in 2003 while gripped in the vice of sudden onset kleptomania? I don’t believe Obama or GWB. Obama knows no one is ever going to look through his papers unless some disgruntled staffer decides to slip them to the NY Post.

    steveg (c3bad2)

  40. belonged in the National Archives

    What a complete collection of trash that must be. House cafeteria menus, Secret Service pistol range qualification targets (possibly classified), itinerary for the 2nd assistant deputy secretary of Agriculture for Pig Inspection’s trip to Memphis. Etc.

    It’s not just Presidential Executive Orders.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  41. while gripped in the vice of sudden onset kleptomania?

    It was actually a document on maybe killing bin Laden from 1999, with Bill’s handwritten notes, that he stole and destroyed to keep out of the hands of the 9/11 investigation. Nothing sudden or unpremeditated at all.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  42. @38. “Ignoring” assumes Biden knew he had the documents, an assumption for which there’s no evidence to date. We know that Trump deliberately flaunted and obstructed long after he knew. That’s the definitive difference. And BTW, Trump’s facility was reportedly far from secure. He had to be told by a DOJ counterintelligence official to put a better lock on the storage room containing many of the documents. And that doesn’t even account for the documents found in his desk.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  43. The U.S. doesn’t have an ‘Official Secrets Act’ as the Brits and several other nations do. Maybe it should. The U.S. system is a tiered classification system determined by a qualified bureaucrat on three levels based on ‘sensitivity’ to national security matters…

    ‘The desired degree of secrecy about such information is known as its sensitivity. Sensitivity is based upon a calculation of the damage to national security that the release of the information would cause. The United States has three levels of classification: Confidential, Secret, and Top Secret. Each level of classification indicates an increasing degree of sensitivity. Thus, if one holds a Top Secret security clearance, one is allowed to handle information up to the level of Top Secret, including Secret and Confidential information. If one holds a Secret clearance, one may not then handle Top Secret information, but may handle Secret and Confidential classified information.’

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classified_information_in_the_United_States

    OTOH, an ‘Official Secrets Act’ is law and structured differently:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Official_Secrets_Act

    But over history, particularly in the UK, some what now seems unusual information was cloaked under early versions of it– for example:

    “As early as the 16th Century, following Francis Drake’s circumnavigation, Queen Elizabeth I declared that all written accounts of Drake’s voyages were to become the ‘Queen’s secrets of the Realm’. In addition, Drake and the other participants of his voyages were sworn to their secrecy on the pain of death; the Queen intended to keep Drake’s activities away from the eyes of rival Spain.”

    DCSCA (c49e5d)

  44. Navigation data was indeed Top Secret in the 16th century, as it was mostly lists of landmarks and waypoints. You could easily use the sun for latitude, but longitude was almost impossible to reckon at sea until the 19th century. So, it was all “turn left at the Tastee-Freeze.”

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  45. lurker (cd7cd4) — 1/25/2023 @ 3:51 pm

    I’m not blind to the differences. I just have a different opinion of them than you seem to. What I’ve also noticed is that we don’t have many details on JB’s docs and a lot of speculation on DT’s docs. We know JB’s have been found in multiple locations and some reports make it out like it’s only a few documents but if you read carefully it could just as easily be multiple boxes of unknown size. We also know this has been going on for over a decade.

    You also say JB possibly didn’t know. So, he was given secret documents, kept them, moved them around several times, and then left them in multiple places. But he didn’t know about them. And in this scenario between you and I you think I’m blind?

    But more to the original point; I’m not on team it was a big deal when DT did it no matter what was in the documents but it’s not a big deal when JB did it no matter what was in the documents. My earlier comment is just paraphrasing comments made by another commenter here.

    frosty (6a171a)

  46. Recently I was browsing in Joseph Persico’s Roosevelt’s Secret War, and ran across this from 1941 (before the Pearl Harbor attack):

    The Japanese had reason to believe their code had been broken. Dr. Hans Thomsen, the German charge d’affaires in Washington who had tried to fix the 1940 election, had a line into the State Department’s code room. According to Magic rules, only the secretary, Cordell Hull, was to receive intercepts at State. Hull, however, shared this intelligence with at least six of his top suborinates. One of them, in return, allowed four more officials in the Far Eastern Division to see the intercepts. With so many recipients, multiple copies had to be run off on a mimeograph machine in the code room. The room’s chief was Joseph P. Dugan, an isolationist. What Dugan saw of the Magic intercepts he discussed, even showed, to a like-minded friend. This friend, unknown to Dugan, was in Thomsen’s pay. (p. 105)

    Who then passed that secret on to Germany, and to the Japanese ambassador.

    Amazingly the Japanese did a “perfunctory” investigation — and concluded that their top-level codes were still safe.

    I believe our nation has many talents, but that we aren’t very good at keeping secrets, compared to many other nations.

    (I assume everyone knows that the Nazis were bribing congressmen, and spreading propaganda here before the Pearl Harbor attack.)

    Jim Miller (f29931)

  47. What I’ve also noticed is that we don’t have many details on JB’s docs and a lot of speculation on DT’s docs.

    Obviously every analysis is a snapshot in time, subject to change with the revelation of new facts. On the facts as we know them now, Trump’s behavior was repeatedly and egregiously willful. There’s no evidence Biden’s was anything but unknowing.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  48. You also say JB possibly didn’t know. So, he was given secret documents, kept them, moved them around several times, and then left them in multiple places. But he didn’t know about them. And in this scenario between you and I you think I’m blind?

    Yes I do. Have you ever moved? I’m a lawyer. Biden is a politician. Lawyers and politicians can have thousands, even tens of thousands of documents. I can’t imagine any lawyer or politician going through every document when they move. You just throw your files into banker’s boxes en masse. I’ve unpacked and found documents of which I had no recollection, some having been packed and moved several times, and I did the packing! When someone else does your packing, as I’m sure was done for Biden, you bet you can be moving all sorts of things of which you’re unaware.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  49. I’m not blind to the differences. I just have a different opinion of them than you seem to.

    Well, obviously that, but to me it also looks like blindness. When you can say,

    Yep. We went from “DT needs to be sent to SuperMax for this” to “you can’t expect honest civil servants to follow all of these rules” at a predictable speed.

    aside from being hyperbolic, which is fine, it looks pretty blind to some obvious, definitive differences.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  50. 49,

    I’m guessing you don’t remember who made the supermax comment?

    At this point NeverTrump is hanging their hat on DT not giving the docs back fast enough. Everyone else who isn’t buried in DT hate is seeing JB, the DOJ, NeverTrump, and a variety of D’s doubling down on hypocrisy.

    Have you watched KJP give a press conference? She’s flat out lying or being lied to.

    Nothing you say about DT changes any of that.

    frosty (0000a5)

  51. 48,

    We’re not talking about dinner receipts. We’re talking about docs that supposedly shouldn’t have left a scif. That first step of taking the docs out of the secure system or area is where the intentional step was taken. That doesn’t happen by accident. There are teams of people in the WH tasked with keeping track of this stuff and making sure it’s not accidentally misplaced.

    Talking about how everyone moves and misplaces things is just clouding the issue. Of course once you take SCI documents and mix them in with random docs and treat them carelessly they can get lost or forgotten. That’s exactly the point.

    frosty (0000a5)

  52. @48. “I’m a lawyer and a politician with a lot of papers to pack and unpack and move a lot” is not an excuse. Classified docs- at least the hard copies- are in folders clearly marked to highlight what they are. We’ve seen photos of same from Trump’s dump. What’s disturbing is these docs are supposed to be read in a SCIF room and not removed- especially those from Joey’s senator days. Did he scan any and copy the load on a thumb drive? Responsibility or handling classified docs are part of the job.

    DCSCA (1f007c)

  53. aside from being hyperbolic, which is fine, it looks pretty blind to some obvious, definitive differences.
    lurker (cd7cd4) — 1/25/2023 @ 6:29 pm

    “your Honor, I broke the law but I didn’t do it as bad as that Joe Shmoe guy over there”

    Biden will certainly skate, but it won’t be because of that gem of legal reasoning

    JF (005ccd)

  54. your Honor, I broke the law but I wasn’t a jacka$$ about it like that Joe Shmoe guy over there

    FIFY

    The irony of complaining about DT dragging his feet while JB didn’t is that JB didn’t have to drag his feet. They let JB have his uncleared lawyers go through the docs and take their time. The only reason JB is under any pressure now is because this got leaked.

    frosty (0000a5)

  55. Lurker, you’re way too rational.

    AJ_Liberty (b884d8)

  56. “your Honor, I broke the law but I didn’t do it as bad as that Joe Shmoe guy over there”

    Biden will certainly skate, but it won’t be because of that gem of legal reasoning

    That would be a “gem” of legal reasoning, which is to say very much not a gem, were we talking about street crimes, which require proof only of general intent, i.e., the intent to commit the act, not knowledge of its criminality. But white collar crimes, such as the ones at issue here, have higher intent requirements. The difference in mental states can indeed be the difference between guilt and innocence. If that higher bar for proving white collar crimes offends you, tell it to your Congressman. Meanwhile, please do keep those gems of legal reasoning coming.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  57. The irony of complaining about DT dragging his feet while JB didn’t is that JB didn’t have to drag his feet. They let JB have his uncleared lawyers go through the docs and take their time.

    Wait, you mean a sitting President who self-reports and cooperates is treated differently than a former President who repeatedly lies and obstructs and refuses to disgorge, until finally the FBI has to go in and do the job themselves? What perfidy. I blame Obama.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  58. you’re way too rational

    Pffft. I’m reliably informed I’m just too buried in DT hate to see that Biden, the DOJ, NeverTrump, and a variety of D’s are doubling down on hypocrisy.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  59. @57/@58.

    ‘Pfft’ indeed:

    The truth about Biden’s document debacle: He didn’t ‘self-report’

    ‘With yet more classified documents seized during a long-overdue search by the FBI of the president’s Wilmington, Del., home, President Biden’s apologists are even more stridently portraying him as a cooperative public servant who “self-reported” his wrongdoing — as compared to his predecessor, who fought government efforts to acquire records he retained for well over a year.

    Put aside that this is largely beside the point, the main issue being Biden’s serial violations of the federal criminal law that controls classified intelligence, not how supposedly helpful he has been to investigators.

    The fact is, he did not self-report — certainly not in the manner he suggests. To “self-report” a crime, a person needs to report it to law enforcement authorities. Biden and his aides absolutely did not do that. Moreover, a close look at the timeline elucidates that the White House hoped this issue would slip quietly into a black hole, with no publicity and no criminal investigation.

    On Nov. 2, 2022, the first batch of classified documents — some of which were marked “TS/SCI” (i.e., top secret, sensitive compartmented information), the classification level applied to the government’s most sensitive intelligence — were found by Biden’s private lawyers at the Penn Biden Center in Washington, in an office the president used as a private citizen after his term as Obama administration vice president ended.

    This was indicative of several felony offenses of federal law. First, the Penn Biden Center did not open until February 2018. Biden obviously took the documents when he left the Obama White House in January 2017, so they had to have been illegally retained at some other unauthorized location for 13 months — meaning they had to have been illegally transported at least twice. Second, Biden directed his Penn Biden Center office to be packed up by his private lawyers, who did not have security clearances (and by the way, even if they had them, that would not necessarily mean they’d be authorized to review TS/SCI documents). Causing national defense information to be exposed to unauthorized persons is also a crime.

    What happened next is critical: The Biden private attorney who took the lead on the first batch of documents is Patrick Moore. Moore did not report his discovery of highly classified documents retained in an unlawful place to law-enforcement — i.e., to the FBI or the Department of Justice (DOJ). He reported them to the Biden White House.

    We do not know who at the White House participated in the deliberations over what to do about the classified documents discovery. What we know is that the White House did not report the discovery to law enforcement. Instead, it reported the discovery to the National Archives and Records Administration (NARA), an executive agency (i.e., it reports to the president) that is essentially a records repository, not a law enforcement agency.

    Moreover, NARA’s leadership, under acting archivist Debra Steidel Wall, has worked closely with the Biden administration. When former President Trump tried to assert executive privilege over government records he had retained at Mar-a-Lago, it was up to Biden — under the Presidential Records Act — to decide whether to support that claim. Politically, though, Biden did not want to be seen as participating in an investigation of his rival. To help him out of that pickle, Wall issued an edict rejecting Trump’s privilege claim, as if she had made the decision about a presidential privilege that only Biden had legal authority to make.

    More recently, when House Republicans demanded information from NARA about Biden’s mishandling of classified documents, NARA refused to cooperate. Provision of its own records to Congress, the agency claimed, could interfere with the special counsel’s probe, so it must be left to the Justice Department to decide on disclosure matters. This is exactly the stonewall position the Biden White House wants executive agencies to take.

    In alerting NARA about the documents found on Nov. 2, Biden was not reporting his likely criminal offenses. At best, the Biden White House was letting the records repository know that there was a batch of Obama-era records that needed to be returned to government files. We don’t even know if the White House told NARA that some of the records were classified. In any event, the White House arranged for representatives of NARA officials to take the documents.

    So, who reported the matter to law enforcement? That was done by the office of NARA’s inspector general, Dr. Brett M. Baker. The IG is not an ordinary executive official. Rather, it is a watchdog position, created by Congress to keep the agency on the straight and narrow by conducting internal investigations and reporting misconduct to Congress. Most executive agencies have IG offices — and Baker has worked in several of them.

    The NARA IG’s office would have recognized that, if classified information was included in the Biden documents, then there were potential crimes and the Justice Department would have to be notified — just as NARA notified the DOJ when it found classified information in boxes of records that Trump returned to NARA about a year ago.

    Biden did not report his misconduct to law-enforcement or to the public. Furthermore, there is reason to believe he intended for the public never to know. The public learned about Biden’s illegal retention of classified intelligence because CBS News — not Biden — reported it on Jan. 9. Only then did the White House and the president confess that the CBS report was true.

    But here’s the thing: Prior to Jan. 9, there had been a second discovery of illegally retained classified documents: the ones found in Biden’s Wilmington garage on Dec. 20. CBS mustn’t have known about that one because it wasn’t mentioned in the Jan. 9 report. Clearly, though, the Biden White House knew about it — Biden’s private lawyers found the documents; by then, thanks to the NARA-IG the Justice Department had opened an investigation, so the Biden lawyers quietly told the DOJ, which quietly sent the FBI to Biden’s home to retrieve the garage documents.

    Yet, when the White House conceded on Jan. 9 that Biden had retained documents, it concealed the Dec. 20 garage documents — i.e., it confirmed only what CBS had reported about the Nov. 2 Penn Biden Center documents. Obviously, the White House hoped that no one would find out about the second discovery in the Wilmington garage. But then CBS’s Jan. 9 report was quickly followed by press reports about the documents found in the garage, as well as yet a third set of classified documents found in Biden’s Wilmington home (in his den) on Jan. 12. At that point, the cat was out of the bag, and there were so many violations that Attorney General Merrick Garland had no choice but to appoint a special counsel to conduct a criminal investigation.

    Biden did not self-report to law enforcement. And Biden has not been transparent with the public. The president hoped to bury the whole embarrassing story. Once it emerged, he did what Washington politicians do: He said as little as he thought he could get away with, gauged by what the news media had uncovered, and he pretended that these grudging, mounting concessions showed self-reporting and transparency. They didn’t. – Former federal prosecutor Andrew C. McCarthy is a senior fellow at National Review Institute, a contributing editor at National Review, a Fox News contributor and the author of several books

    Source: https://thehill.com/opinion/white-house/3827051-the-truth-about-bidens-document-debacle-he-didnt-self-report/

    DCSCA (5e7100)

  60. lurker (cd7cd4) — 1/25/2023 @ 8:40 pm

    That’s nice, counselor, but the standard in this case is gross negligence

    not whether someone somewhere did something worse

    JF (46ebc1)

  61. There are two categories of crimes here: ones for retention, transfer and/or mishandling of government documents, and ones for lying and obstruction. On the known evidence, only Trump can plausibly be charged with the latter. That’s self-evident. And on the known evidence, only Trump can plausibly be charge with the former. That’s because statutory mens rea standards notwithstanding, prosecutions have rarely if ever been brought absent aggravating factors, typically willfulness. So once again, “whether someone somewhere did something worse” is in fact relevant to which of the two of you gets prosecuted. Trump’s willful retention is established. Biden’s and Pence’s, not.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  62. What does this have in common? (1)Anna chennault, south vietnamese govt. and richard nixon running for president in 1968. (2) Bill casey, ayatollah of iran, reagan running for president in 1980 the cover story They let the hostages go the minute reagan was sworn in because they were afraid of reagan not because their was a deal! Iran/contra drug dealing. Bill casey’s secret way to fund the contras. Bubba clinton’s letting C.I.A. planes land full of dope at mena ark. to finance the contras. (3)Bubba more interested in BJ’s then getting rid of sadam hussein so bush, cheney and the neo-cons needing a “second pearl harbor” so oil companies can drill in iraq. (4)To deep state’s surprise a black man defeats corporate candidate hillary war monger clinton. (5) to deep state’s surprise a sociopath and someone who is as crooked as they are defeats hillary again! (6) joe gets prosecutor fired in ukraine who is investigating buriama and hunter. Joe wants to run in 2024 secret documents found on ukraine. NY post reports classified material in hunters lap top e-mail to business partner. So many coinsidences?

    asset (389c62)

  63. Exclusive: US intelligence materials related to Ukraine, Iran and UK found in Biden’s private office, source tells CNN

    Among the items from Joe Biden’s time as vice president discovered in a private office last fall are 10 classified documents including US intelligence memos and briefing materials that covered topics including Ukraine, Iran and the United Kingdom, according to a source familiar with the matter.

    https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/10/politics/biden-classified-documents-iran-ukraine-united-kingdom-beau-funeral/index.html

    Ukraine docs?

    …and Brandon Falls.

    DCSCA (790ba0)

  64. Every day, everywhere in America, cops will ignore the commuter going three miles over the speed limit, but will stop and arrest the drag racers doing 100 past the police station.

    Of course, in order to understand why that is, it is very important not to be an ignorant, indiscriminate, partisan clod spreading mental pollution on the internet.

    nk (e6b114)

  65. Wordle in two, with both the starter word and the second (solution) word what one might call Trump.

    nk (e6b114)

  66. And on the known evidence, only Trump can plausibly be charge with the former. That’s because statutory mens rea standards notwithstanding, prosecutions have rarely if ever been brought absent aggravating factors, typically willfulness.

    lurker (cd7cd4) — 1/25/2023 @ 10:01 pm

    You seem to be focusing on the retention issue in a very narrow sense. When JB was given SCI documents he was not supposed to retain, transfer, or mishandle them at that time. That he did is also self evident. They didn’t walk out of the SCIF and follow him around for years on their own.

    This also isn’t some complicated tax issue that he was simply unaware of. The legal requirements are made clear to people given access to SCI documents. They have to sign affirmative statements indicating that they understand.

    He doesn’t get to avoid the “willful” aspect of this by claiming to cooperate once it’s been made public.

    I’m reliably informed I’m just too buried in DT hate to see that Biden, the DOJ, NeverTrump, and a variety of D’s are doubling down on hypocrisy.

    Sounds like you found a well fitting shoe.

    frosty (6a171a)

  67. If anyone has the time, check out Ted Cruz’s latest podcast ‘The Verdict’.

    He walks through how Senators has to go through in order to access classified information.

    Long story broke, with respect to Biden as Senator, him and another person broke the law in handling these documents. That person allow Biden to break chain of custody and flout the Espionage Act with impunity.

    Realize, that if you try to compare Biden’s deeds to Trump’s deeds, it really shouldn’t matter. Continually making that point is a complete red herring.

    What matters, if you take politics out of it, is did they break the law.

    If you bring politics into it, and there’s arguments for/against it, the public’s perception is also important if you want to avoid appearances of different standards of justice.

    whembly (d116f3)

  68. Every day, everywhere in America, cops will ignore the commuter going three miles over the speed limit, but will stop and arrest the drag racers doing 100 past the police station.
    nk (e6b114) — 1/26/2023 @ 3:40 am

    And every day, everywhere in America, cops will ignore the councilman, constable, judge or cousin Cletus who does 100 past the police station and arrest the average chump doing 43 in a 35 zone.

    JF (46ebc1)

  69. (I assume everyone knows that the Nazis were bribing congressmen, and spreading propaganda here before the Pearl Harbor attack.)

    As was Stalin and probably Churchill.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  70. aside from being hyperbolic, which is fine, it looks pretty blind to some obvious, definitive differences.

    So, it seems that Biden was resistant to the idea of the FBI searching his house, and the DoJ was preparing to get a warrant.

    https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/25/politics/justice-department-biden-home-search

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  71. Wordle in two, with both the starter word and the second (solution) word what one might call Trump.

    It took me six. It took Wordlebot 5. I guess you had a luckier starter word.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  72. At this point NeverTrump is hanging their hat on DT not giving the docs back fast enough.

    I was pretty much NeverTrump and I certainly am NeverAgainTrump. But I never really thought that the Trump documents were much more than a gotcha. Trump’s behavior about the papers was more telling, but really that can’t be people’s first exposure to Trump Toxicity.

    There are far clearer reasons for Trump to go to jail (e.g. J6). I’m not a fan of trying every argument out to see if it sticks, but then IANAL.

    Similarly, I don’t feel the need to defend Joe Biden. “It’s a pity they can’t both lose.”

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  73. OT: People are complaining bitterly about the cost of natural gas. Did you know that the “Inflation Reduction Act of 2022” included a provision imposing a set of taxes on natural gas and other fossil fuels, with an estimated 17% increase in natural gas costs to utilities?

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  74. OT: Tennessee is accused of “politicizing” HIV/AIDS funding after it rejects same due to inclusion of transgender and pro-abortion groups in the program.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2023/01/26/tennessee-federal-hiv-funding/

    Tennessee has rejected millions of dollars from the federal government for HIV/AIDS prevention — a move that public health experts worry will politicize the response to the disease and has the potential to destabilize decades of progress in getting the epidemic under control.

    The controversy, which critics say was triggered by questions about the inclusion of transgender and abortion rights groups, is the latest example of Republican pushback against federal leadership and oversight that has resulted in clashes in areas that once had bipartisan support.

    Without a hint of irony.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  75. Justices request DoJ to weigh in on Texas and Florida social-media laws, both of which appear in petitions to the Court. Appeals courts have upheld the Texas law and blocked the Florida law.

    The Supreme Court on Monday asked the Biden administration for its views on a pair of controversial social-media laws enacted in Texas and Florida. Passed in response to beliefs that social-media platforms were censoring their users, particularly those expressing conservative political views, both states’ laws seek to regulate the content-moderation policies of social-media companies like Facebook and Twitter.

    I have no idea what the Court would do with this subject, but I am not surprised they will HAVE to deal with it, as private control of most effective speech makes the 1st Amendment look dated.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  76. 74,

    Is there still an HIV/AIDS epidemic?

    frosty (0485c2)

  77. It took me six. It took Wordlebot 5. I guess you had a luckier starter word.

    It gave me the first and last letters, and it was the most likely to prick Trump’s vanity. Will Smith’s uxuriousness, too 😉 but I had Trump in mind and for the next word as well.

    nk (2b27e0)

  78. uxoriousness I don’t want to lose my reputation for knowing the best words.

    nk (2b27e0)

  79. Show and Tell:

    On a winter’s day in 1984, a briefcase stuffed with classified government documents showed up in a building in Pittsburgh, borne by someone who most certainly wasn’t supposed to have them.

    That someone was 13-year-old Kristin Preble. She took the papers to school as a show-and-tell project for her eighth grade class. Her dad had found them in his Cleveland hotel room several years earlier and taken them home as a souvenir.
    ……..
    The Grade 8 escapade and one known as Debategate both involved the mishandling of classified documents that Democratic President Jimmy Carter used to prepare for a debate with Republican rival Ronald Reagan in Cleveland on Oct. 28, 1980. In the latter instance, the Reagan campaign obtained — some said stole — Carter’s briefing materials for the debate.
    ……..
    Two days after the 1980 debate, businessman Alan Preble found the papers in his Cleveland hotel room, apparently left behind by Carter press secretary Jody Powell. Preble took them to his Franklin Park home, where they sat for more than three years as a faintly appreciated keepsake.
    …….
    Off the girl went to Ingomar Middle School on Jan. 19, 1984, with the zippered briefcase.

    Teacher Jim DeLisio’s eyes popped when he saw the warnings on the documents inside. Among them: “Classified, Confidential, Executive” and “Property of the United States Government.”
    …….
    Curiosity got the better of him. That night, he said, he and his wife and daughter pored over the documents, containing “everything you’d want to know from A to Z” on world and U.S. developments. One folder was marked “Iran.” Libya was also in the mix.

    Unable to reach Kristin’s family by phone, DeLisio the next day called the FBI, which swiftly retrieved the papers.
    ……..
    A Justice Department official who spoke to The Associated Press on the condition of anonymity at the time said the bundle of documents was 4 inches (10 centimeters) thick.

    Despite steering the secrets back to their proper place, DeLisio was reprimanded by school officials for calling the authorities before reaching the Preble family or them. …….
    …….
    As for Kristin, she earned a niche in history and a “B” on her school project.
    #########

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  80. CBS has a 1-hour Wordle like game show called LINGO on Wednesdays at 9 PM Eastern time. The show supplies the first letter so they only have to fill out 4 remaining letters. They score, not on the basis of how many tries they have (as long as they don’t exceed the maximum, but on the basis of whether or not they get the word within the time frame allotted. (60 seconds?)

    I can’t believe how fast all contestants guess/try out words. They must have been given and studied the master list.

    Sammy Finkelman (50e39d)

  81. OT: People are complaining bitterly about the cost of natural gas. Did you know that the “Inflation Reduction Act of 2022” included a provision imposing a set of taxes on natural gas and other fossil fuels, with an estimated 17% increase in natural gas costs to utilities?

    Kevin M (1ea396) — 1/26/2023 @ 8:03 am

    Vote for leftists and taxes go up while purchasing power goes down. Quelle surprise.

    NJRob (dc40f2)

  82. National Archives asks former presidents and vice presidents to check for classified and presidential documents
    ……..
    The Archives sent a letter Thursday to representatives of former presidents and vice presidents from the last six presidential administrations covered by the Presidential Records Act (PRA) – from former President Ronald Reagan’s White House to the present.

    The letter, which was reviewed by CNN, requests that they check their files to ensure that material thought to be personal does not “inadvertently” contain presidential records that are required by law to be turned over to the Archives.

    “The responsibility to comply with the PRA does not diminish after the end of an administration,” the letter states. “Therefore, we request that you conduct an assessment of any materials held outside of NARA that relate to the Administration for which you serve as a designated representative under the PRA, to determine whether bodies of materials previously assumed to be personal in nature might inadvertently contain Presidential or Vice Presidential records subject to the PRA, whether classified or unclassified.”

    The letter notes that “while much of the attention of these instances has focused on the classified information, the PRA requires that all Presidential records of every Administration from Reagan onward must be transferred to NARA, regardless of classification status.”

    The Archives sent the letter to representatives for former Presidents Trump, Barack Obama, George W. Bush, Bill Clinton, George H.W. Bush and Ronald Reagan, and former Vice Presidents Pence, Biden, Dick Cheney, Al Gore and Dan Quayle.
    ………
    Former President Jimmy Carter did not receive a letter from the Archives, since he is technically exempt from the Presidential Records Act. Though Carter signed the PRA into existence, it did not become effective until he left office.
    ………

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  83. So, it seems that Biden was resistant to the idea of the FBI searching his house, and the DoJ was preparing to get a warrant.

    https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/25/politics/justice-department-biden-home-search

    Kevin M (1ea396) — 1/26/2023 @ 7:49 am

    There is nothing in the linked article that suggests Biden was resistant to the FBI searching his home.

    Federal investigators also were prepared to seek a warrant if they did not get consent to search the Wilmington property, according to multiple sources.

    The Justice Department, however, never raised the possibility of a warrant during the recent discussions, according to a law enforcement source, even though the possibility loomed if Biden’s team didn’t cooperate.
    ……….
    In the end, both sides reached an agreement that allowed the FBI to do the search, and investigators spent nearly 13 hours combing through all of the working, living and storage spaces. They found six items relevant to the probe, including documents with classified markings and material from Biden’s time in the Senate.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  84. The National Archives has now asked presidents nd vice presidents from 6 Administrations to search their home.

    Does this go back to Reagan, or do they skip Reagan (not Bush I, because Quayle is included) because they have died – and they are asking Carter since it was during his term that the Presidential Records Act was enacted?

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  85. I’m curious – what was his date of birth in the 1950 Census?

    https://www.archives.gov/research/census/presidents/clinton

    https://www.archives.gov/research/census/1950

    His name was William Jefferson Blythe IV then (maybe without the IV)

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  86. Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/26/2023 @ 11:53 am

    . They found six items relevant to the probe, including documents with classified markings and material from Biden’s time in the Senate.

    No, they carried off material from Biden’s time in the Senate. They didn’t have time to search through and examine every document.

    If they found one thing belonging to the government, they took the whole box or whatever. That’s what they did with Trump.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  87. Every day, everywhere in America, cops will ignore the commuter going three miles over the speed limit, but will stop and arrest the drag racers doing 100 past the police station.

    Of course, in order to understand why that is, it is very important not to be an ignorant, indiscriminate, partisan clod spreading mental pollution on the internet.

    nk (e6b114) — 1/26/2023 @ 3:40 am

    Epic post, nk, and funny! H.L. Menckenesque.

    norcal (862cdb)

  88. And every day, everywhere in America, cops will ignore the councilman, constable, judge or cousin Cletus who does 100 past the police station and arrest the average chump doing 43 in a 35 zone.

    JF (46ebc1) — 1/26/2023 @ 6:20 am

    Two things can be true.

    norcal (862cdb)

  89. CBP constantly get into car chases and people die. Now they (the union?) is complaining too many new hires flunk the lie detector test 50%

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  90. Does this go back to Reagan, or do they skip Reagan (not Bush I, because Quayle is included) because they have died – and they are asking Carter since it was during his term that the Presidential Records Act was enacted?

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 1/26/2023 @ 4:28 pm

    See here.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  91. Rip

    “In the end, both sides reached an agreement that allowed the FBI to do the search…”
    Granted the FBI didn’t bring a warrant, but full cooperation seems like it would not need much negotiating “in the end”.
    To me that bit makes it seem like lawyers, being lawyers, wanted to control the search, maybe agreeing to scope of “just federal documents, ignore the coke and photos of underage relatives in Hunters old bedroom, any classified docs found in Hunter’s room would be officially found simply “in the residence” rolls of US $100’s in Ukrainian bank sleeves are to be left in Hunters personal vodka freezer etc.

    steveg (63814f)

  92. steveg (46e979) — 1/24/2023 @ 7:34 pm

    Hillary Clintons lawyers got to decide which emails were relevant to an investigation.

    Which emails were “job-related” Which they did on the basis of what email adddress they were sent to or came from. They did not send the emails, but rinted them out, without the meta data and without the attachments, They also, for show, included emails that contained key words like Libya or Benghazi, that might be responsive to the committee subpoena. That;s how an email from Hillary to Chelsea in which she described the attack in Benghazi as a terrorist attack got included (that was the administration position – later they unlearned that) The whole thing was kept secret from the committee until the Sate Department was satisfied – and they had to supply more thasn they initially sent to satisfy Kerry.

    It never occurred to Hillary’s lawyers that any of it could be classified because that was supposed to be impossible. But some was marked classified (c) = confidential, against Hillary’s instructions, mainly her schedule some days, and some was considered classified at birth – and there’s no way, following the letter of the law, but nobody ordinarily looks, to avoid a high level official creating documents that should be classified that he or she has the right to declassify because it can based on classified information learned outside the cope of their job.

    Hillary Rodham Clinton very publicly called for all her remaining emails to be released. That started the investigation because before releasing anything they look to see if it is classified.

    Hillary’s lawyers got to decide what the DOJ got

    No what the State Department got for its records, and what was responsive to the subpoena from the Benghazi committee, DPJ onl got involved after some of what she sent (and asked to be made public) was determined to be classified, as is the case actaully all the time with ccollections of documents.

    Sammy Finkelman (21ece6)

  93. 90. Back to Reagan, it says.

    Jimmy Carter already searched in 1981 and they are not bothering him, apparently. Then why bother Obama?

    Sammy Finkelman (21ece6)

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