Patterico's Pontifications

1/23/2023

Verdict: Oath Keeper Members Guilty of Seditious Conspiracy

Filed under: General — Dana @ 3:11 pm



[guest post by Dana]

Just a quick update:

Three members of the Oath Keepers and a fourth person associated with the far-right militia group were convicted of seditious conspiracy by a Washington, DC, jury on Monday for their role in the January 6, 2021, insurrection…The four men – Roberto Minuta, Joseph Hackett, David Moerschel and Edward Vallejo – were accused of plotting to stop the certification of Joe Biden’s 2020 electoral college victory, a conspiracy that culminated in the attack on the US Capitol…A sentencing date was not set, but all four defendants will be placed on house arrest until they are sentenced, Judge Amit Mehta said Monday. They cannot have firearms in their house, and all four will have limitations on their phone communications and internet use…In addition to the seditious conspiracy charges, Minuta, Hackett, Moerschel and Vallejo were also found guilty of conspiracy to obstruct an official proceeding, obstruction of an official proceeding and aiding and abetting, as well as conspiracy to prevent a member of Congress from discharging their official duties

Today’s verdict comes after Oath Keepers founder and leader Steward Rhodes and one other individual were found guilty of seditious conspiracy (and other charges) late last year.

–Dana

75 Responses to “Verdict: Oath Keeper Members Guilty of Seditious Conspiracy”

  1. Hello.

    Dana (1225fc)

  2. The sentencing should include a stipulation that they ride the short bus to prison.

    norcal (862cdb)

  3. Related:

    An Arkansas man who was photographed during the Jan. 6 riot with his feet on a desk in then-House Speaker Nancy Pelosi’s office, was found guilty on all counts Monday after brief jury deliberations.

    Richard Barnett faced eight charges stemming from the insurrection……

    After the verdict, Barnett told reporters outside the court courthouse, “This is not a jury of my peers. I don’t agree with the decision, but I do appreciate the process and we are surely going to appeal.”
    ……….
    Barnett, who a day earlier had said he would apologize to Pelosi, D-Calif., if she were in court, admitted during cross-examination that when a police officer told him he needed to leave her office he replied: “You need to give up communism.”

    Barnett also admitted to telling an officer in the Capitol: “We’re in a war. You need to pick a side. Don’t be on the wrong side or you’re going to get hurt.”

    Defending his actions, Barnett said he didn’t believe he had violated the law on Jan. 6.
    ………..

    Barnett was charged with:

    Obstruction of an Official Proceeding;
    Aiding and Abetting;
    Entering and Remaining in a Restricted Building or Grounds with a Deadly or Dangerous Weapon;
    Disorderly and Disruptive Conduct in a Restricted Building or Grounds with a Deadly or Dangerous Weapon;
    Entering and Remaining in Certain Rooms in the Capitol Building;
    Disorderly Conduct in a Capitol Building;
    Parading, Demonstrating, or Picketing in a Capitol Building; and
    Theft of Government Property

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  4. Barnett faces up to 47 years in prison.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  5. Not surprising, even with terrible evidence, the DC courts isn’t going to not convict.

    Maybe I missed the deets, but does anyone have the run up of what exactly these guys did seditiously?

    Because, it seems a new standard is being made and I’m not sure the public is going to like this new standard if it drops on the other shoe.

    whembly (d116f3)

  6. Speaking of sedition, or treason, or generally betraying America, former FBI counterintelligence chief McGonigal, for colluding with one of Putin’s sanctioned pet oligarchs.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  7. You realize, of course, that future administrations facing violent demonstrations, or even peaceful occupation of government buildings, will be prone to throw the book at violators. Not like the attorney who got off with a slap on the wrist in NYC for torching a police car or those involved over the weekend in the anti-police riots in Atlanta.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  8. Ashli Babbitt remains unavailable for comment.

    DCSCA (7d0ebd)

  9. Obstruction of an Official Proceeding;
    Aiding and Abetting;
    Entering and Remaining in a Restricted Building or Grounds with a Deadly or Dangerous Weapon;
    Disorderly and Disruptive Conduct in a Restricted Building or Grounds with a Deadly or Dangerous Weapon;
    Entering and Remaining in Certain Rooms in the Capitol Building;
    Disorderly Conduct in a Capitol Building;
    Parading, Demonstrating, or Picketing in a Capitol Building; and
    Theft of Government Property

    47 years? The Eighth Amendment wept. This would be unusual punishment. Most of these charges are worth maybe a night in jail when done by Code Pink during the SotU.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  10. A person who attacked a police officer, or caused bodily harm to anyone, should be held to account. But most of this is trespassing, or perhaps aggravated trespassing.

    Obstruction of an Official Proceeding See Code Pink at SotU
    Aiding and Abetting See the Congressperson who gave Code Pink the access
    Entering and Remaining in a Restricted Building or Grounds with a Deadly or Dangerous Weapon Which was? A pocketknife? It matters.
    Disorderly and Disruptive Conduct in a Restricted Building or Grounds with a Deadly or Dangerous Weapon define “with”; the rest of this below
    Entering and Remaining in Certain Rooms in the Capitol Building Aggravated trespassing
    Disorderly Conduct in a Capitol Building again, Code Pink
    Parading, Demonstrating, or Picketing in a Capitol Building you can’t politick here, this is the Capitol! And, again Code Pink
    Theft of Government Property This could be anything.

    I’m not trying to minimize this, but some of these charges minimize themselves. That the heirs of the Columbia sit-in could actually pass laws like this is itself mind-boggling.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  11. Meanwhile, in Ye Olde Alternative UniverSe:

    ‘Three members of the Sons of Liberty and a fourth person associated with the militia group were convicted of seditious conspiracy by a London jury on Monday for their role in the July, 1776 insurrection… The four men – John Hancock, Samuel Adams, Paul Revere and Benjamin Rush – were accused of plotting an insurrection against The Crown, a conspiracy that culminated in, among other incidents, the attack in Boston Harbor in 1775…

    The Sons of Liberty were a grassroots group of instigators and provocateurs… who used an extreme form of civil disobedience—threats, and in some cases actual violence—to intimidate [R]oyalists and outrage the government. The goal of the radicals was to push moderates into a confrontation with “the Crown.”

    ‘“Violence was not necessarily accepted as a regular feature of politics, but there was an understanding that it might be part of politics as a last resort,” explains Benjamin L. Carp a historian at Brooklyn College… Adams organized a boycott… [and] … the Sons enforced the boycott by sending boys to smash the windows and smear excrement on the walls of local shops that didn’t comply. If that didn’t work, the proprietor faced the risk of being kidnapped and tarred and feathered, a painful, humiliating torture that could leave lasting scars.

    The Sons’ defiance of the ‘Royalists’ not only helped spur the Revolutionary War, it also fostered an American tradition of grassroots activism that various activist groups have applied over the centuries to push for change.- https://www.history.com/news/sons-of-liberty-members-causes

    And they weren’t just whistling Dixie… more like Yankee Doodle Dandy… 😉

    DCSCA (7d0ebd)

  12. 47 years? The Eighth Amendment wept. This would be unusual punishment. Most of these charges are worth maybe a night in jail when done by Code Pink during the SotU.

    Kevin M (1ea396) — 1/23/2023 @ 5:07 pm

    The obstruction of Congress alone is a felony with a maximum sentence of 20 years. Carrying a dangerous weapon during the attack on the Capitol and the charge of civil disorder were also felonies.

    Given the light sentences of most January 6th defendants I would expect something less than 10 years.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  13. Obstruction of an Official Proceeding;
    Aiding and Abetting;
    Entering and Remaining in a Restricted Building or Grounds with a Deadly or Dangerous Weapon;
    Disorderly and Disruptive Conduct in a Restricted Building or Grounds with a Deadly or Dangerous Weapon;
    Entering and Remaining in Certain Rooms in the Capitol Building;
    Disorderly Conduct in a Capitol Building;
    Parading, Demonstrating, or Picketing in a Capitol Building; and
    Theft of Government Property

    What?

    Not littering, too??

    DCSCA (7d0ebd)

  14. The obstruction of Congress alone is a felony with a maximum sentence of 20 years. Carrying a dangerous weapon during the attack on the Capitol and the charge of civil disorder were also felonies. – Mused a Royalist lieutenant sipping warm ale from a pewter tankard in a Philadelphia tavern.

    DCSCA (7d0ebd)

  15. Entering and Remaining in a Restricted Building or Grounds with a Deadly or Dangerous Weapon Which was? A pocketknife? It matters.

    It was a a ZAP Hike N Strike Stun Gun Walking Stick with a 950,000 volt stun gun attached.

    Authorities said the stun device on his retractable walking stick was capable of rendering a person unconscious if held against the skin for 10 seconds.

    Source

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  16. The defendant claimed that his stun stick was inoperative at the time, making it just a stick. The prosecution did not show it was operative. The “theft” was of an empty envelope.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  17. The defendant claimed that his stun stick was inoperative at the time, making it just a stick. The prosecution did not show it was operative.

    You would think that Barnett during the defense case would have demonstrated that it didn’t work.

    This also probably wasn’t a good strategy to impress the jury:

    (Joseph) McBride and his co-counsel, Brad Geyer, also defended the defense’s unusual tactic of laughing during portions of the government’s case. McBride said it was an appropriate reaction to prosecutors seeking to leverage some of McBride’s more outlandish political statements.

    “We think that it’s absolutely objectionable, and ridiculous that a man could be on trial, and possibly be sentenced to the rest of his life in prison, and have tweets used against him — some political tweets,” McBride said. “So, we made a conscious decision to laugh at that because, at the end of the day, we don’t believe that that stuff had any place in this trial.”

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  18. a Washington, DC, jury

    LOL

    a verdict in DC is as easy to predict as a verdict in Russia

    JF (bb00d0)

  19. Given the light sentences of most January 6th defendants I would expect something less than 10 years.

    They give rapists less than 10 years.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  20. Maybe I missed the deets, but does anyone have the run up of what exactly these guys did seditiously?

    Because, it seems a new standard is being made and I’m not sure the public is going to like this new standard if it drops on the other shoe.

    whembly (d116f3) — 1/23/2023 @ 4:21 pm

    Here is the indictment of all ten Oath Keepers, including the four (Roberto Minuta, Joseph Hackett, David Moerschel and Edward Vallejo) convicted today. Three other Oath Keepers pled guilty to conspiracy and other charges.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  21. Martyrs feed and fuel populism.

    DCSCA (485072)

  22. Fake News takes the statutory maximum of each charge and adds it up consecutively. It sounds more “news” that way. Judging from prior 1/6 cases, I estimate five to seven years total with about half of it trial penalty.

    nk (79982e)

  23. There is also a ongoing sedition trial involving the Proud Boys.

    Rip Murdock (3f9088)

  24. Judging from prior 1/6 cases, I estimate five to seven years total with about half of it trial penalty.

    nk (79982e) — 1/23/2023 @ 6:39 pm

    I agree.

    Rip Murdock (3f9088)

  25. You know, ‘back in the day’- genuine, real world citizen ‘insurrectionists’ – called “Confederates”– who actually took up arms against the United States for 4 years until the rebellion was ended at Appomattox, merely had to sign an oath of loyalty to the United States and returned to the American fold w/o imprisonment nor fine. My own relative, who ran the Confederate hospital in Richmond, signed such a document; a copy of which the family still has and was obtained from the Virginia archives. No time in the pokie; no fines for waging war against the USA… so what the current crop of castle Royalists are doing to this recent protesting rabble is pure overkill; signals their fear of losing control and makes the sentenced into martyrs ‘to the cause.’

    DCSCA (3ead54)

  26. ‘On December 8, 1863, in his annual message to Congress, President Lincoln outlined his plans for reconstruction of the South, which included terms for amnesty to former Confederates. A pardon would require an oath of allegiance, but it would not restore ownership to former slaves, or restore confiscated property which involved a third party.’

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pardons_for_ex-Confederates

    But then, Joe ain’t Abe.

    DCSCA (3ead54)

  27. OT- OMG, another one:

    Half Moon Bay mass shooting live updates: 7 reportedly killed, suspect in custody

    Seven people were killed Monday in a shooting at two locations in San Mateo County, California, ABC station KGO reported. There is also one person reportedly in critical condition, according to KGO, citing a source.
    A suspect is in custody, the San Mateo County Sheriff’s Office said. This is the state’s second mass shooting in three days. -ABCNews.com

    DCSCA (3ead54)

  28. Update: 7 dead in Half Moon Bay mass shooting; suspect in custody identified

    HALF MOON BAY — Authorities in Half Moon Bay confirmed seven people were killed in a mass shooting Monday afternoon, and a suspect is in custody after turning himself in to San Mateo County Sheriff’s deputies.

    Officers were gathered at two different crime scenes in the coastal community on the San Francisco Peninsula. One crime scene was at the Magic Mushroom Farm at 12761 San Mateo Road/Highway 92, while a second crime scene was further south at a second mushroom farm located at 2125 Cabrillo Highway S./Highway 1. The San Mateo County Sheriff’s Office confirmed early Monday evening that seven people were dead in two separate shooting incidents. Authorities originally indicated at least four people had been killed.

    Deputies initially responded to a shooting report at 2:22 p.m. at the Highway 92 location and found four people dead from gunshot wounds. A fifth victim at the site was taken to a hospital with life-threatening injuries. Three other deceased victims were found a short time later at the location on Highway 1, the sheriff’s office said.

    A view from above the mushroom farm showed deputies and law enforcement personnel gathered outside one of many greenhouses at the site. During the police response to the shooting, the sheriff’s office said a media staging would be located at a substation at 537 Kelly Ave. At around 4:40 p.m., a man wearing a white baseball-style cap was seen being led away from the site in handcuffs. According to the sheriff’s office, the suspect in the shootings drove himself to the substation and surrendered to deputies. He was identified as 67-year-old Zhao Chunli, a Half Moon Bay resident. The weapon used in the shootings was found in Chunli’s vehicle, the sheriff’s office said. No motive has been announce in the deadly shooting. The incident comes only two days after a mass shooting in Monterey Park after a Lunar New Year Festival Saturday night that left 10 people dead and injured 10 more people. – CBSNews.com

    DCSCA (3ead54)

  29. so what the current crop of castle Royalists are doing to this recent protesting rabble is pure overkill; signals their fear of losing control and makes the sentenced into martyrs ‘to the cause.’

    DCSCA (3ead54) — 1/23/2023 @ 7:26 pm

    Maybe in 10-15 years, they can get their sentences commuted like Clinton did for the Susan Rosenberg and Linda Evans.

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d)

  30. @29. Golly, if Joey REALLY wanted to ‘bring us together’ like he bloviaetd in his inaugural, he’d do it on national television in the SOTU speech.

    But then, he’s a sh!t shoveler.

    DCSCA (3ead54)

  31. Rip
    How was the guy supposed to demonstrate his walking stick/cattle prod was inoperable at the time of the activities on Jan 6? The government had the stick for a year and had plenty of time to test it before the battery died, or to come up with testimony from a law enforcement shockee. Last question: is that walking stick/ cattle prod illegal to possess in DC in any condition at all. I can take the bolt carrier group (contains firing pin) out of a CA illegal AR15 and its still illegal even though totally non-functioning

    steveg (f8b2ff)

  32. I think my problem here is that the little fish are being tossed into prison for decades and Mr Big is going to walk.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  33. with about half of it trial penalty.

    I understand why one would do this, but it does seem to make the guarantee of a trial by jury rather hollow. I’m probably not the first person to say this, and I’ve been saying it now for 50 years.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  34. Maybe in 10-15 years, they can get their sentences commuted

    DeSantis will do it on Jan 20th.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  35. The indictment linked by Rip was enough to make me conclude, months ago, that this case would end in convictions. Even if an erstwhile commenter told the jury the government had nothing more than “scary words.”

    Patterico (2cf5c6)

  36. But sure: chalk it all up to those DC juries and not to the evidence. Because partisan BS is the coin of the realm for certain elements of the fringe right.

    Patterico (2cf5c6)

  37. Now they know how black people felt when they got all white juries in the south. Don’t do right wing crime in D.C.!

    asset (6fb1ca)

  38. I don’t think that anyone was really expecting Rhodes to walk. Some of the others, maybe, depending on how stupid they were — a lot of the Oathkeeper thing seemed to be a scam.

    Again, though, it’s Mr Big that is getting away while all the little fish get fried. That seems wrong.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  39. I think my problem here is that the little fish are being tossed into prison for decades and Mr Big is going to walk.

    It’s more of a shuffle than a walk. But rest easy… the Big Guy has stepped into it deep—- but how deep… well, that’s “classified.” 😉

    DCSCA (4fe7d2)

  40. I’m pretty sure Kevin meant Trump, DCSCA.

    norcal (862cdb)

  41. How was the guy supposed to demonstrate his walking stick/cattle prod was inoperable at the time of the activities on Jan 6?

    That would have been a problem but by the same token if he carried a firearm into the Capitol without ammunition he still would have been charged with possession of a dangerous weapon. There doesn’t appear to be an exception in the law for “it’s ok if it doesn’t work.”

    Rip Murdock (3f9088)

  42. Barnett’s lawyers could have asked the court during pre-trial motions to have the zapper tested to see if it worked. But again, it’s functionality wasn’t a determinative factor whether it was a dangerous weapon or not.

    Rip Murdock (3f9088)

  43. Aw, gee, golly, gosh, wow! Who woulda thunk that whiny losers who whined the results of the election would whine about the place of trial too?

    Faith forbid that defendants should be tried in the venue where they are accused of committing the crime.

    I blame that obsolete and anachronistic white slave-owner Constitution. If justice were done, all defendants would be tried in Catoosa County, Georgia.

    nk (79982e)

  44. when Biden faces a DC jury, I’ll bet the evidence will inform the verdict LOL

    JF (56cc6c)

  45. @40

    I’m pretty sure Kevin meant Trump, DCSCA.

    norcal (862cdb) — 1/24/2023 @ 12:13 am

    I would include Trump, Biden, HRC, Patreous, Comey, etc.

    We’re all equal in eyes of the law… except, some are more equal than others.

    whembly (d116f3)

  46. I’m pretty sure Kevin meant Trump, DCSCA.

    Indeed. And no, I don’t put anyone else in the same group, not even some of the lickspittles in the Senate.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  47. But again, it’s functionality wasn’t a determinative factor whether it was a dangerous weapon or not.

    How convenient. So, a guy brings a walking stick into the building, threatens no one with it, but because it was alter determined to originally have had an added function, it can be used to trump up the charges.

    The optics here are terrible if you are trying to convince the public that justice is being done.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  48. A flat sentence of 6 months or so for all the non-violent trespassers would be sufficient.

    Those folks who assaulted cops and/or destroyed property should do serious time, but throwing the book at everyone allows the really bad actors to pretend to be martyrs.

    Charging someone with “theft of government property” for “stealing” an empty envelope shows the prosecution in a poor light. WHEN the same kind of charges are leveled at people who interrupt DeSantis’ SotU, they will be more property seen as garbage. I hope.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  49. A stick is the most ancient of weapons. The mother of all weapons. The “added functionality” is added by the purpose and intent of the wielder. No batteries required.

    The jury is the sole judge of the credibility and weight of the evidence. And here’s what it saw.

    nk (337bdb)

  50. Not grandma’s cane, is it?

    nk (337bdb)

  51. Quick test, is it still armed robbery if the gun used was unloaded?

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  52. But again, it’s functionality wasn’t a determinative factor whether it was a dangerous weapon or not.

    How convenient. So, a guy brings a walking stick into the building, threatens no one with it, but because it was alter determined to originally have had an added function, it can be used to trump up the charges.

    The optics here are terrible if you are trying to convince the public that justice is being done.

    Kevin M (1ea396) — 1/24/2023 @ 7:42 am

    The only “evidence” that the zapper wasn’t functional was a claim from the defendant. How convenient.

    I do agree the charging a misdemeanor for envelope was a bit of prosecutorial overkill.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  53. Until the law changes…

    Throw charges at Pence too.

    whembly (d116f3)

  54. Until the law changes…

    Throw charges at Pence too.

    whembly (d116f3) — 1/24/2023 @ 9:18 am

    I would give everyone a mulligan.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  55. @55 But that’s not the law.

    Either we enforce the law equally, peons vs. the powerful.

    Or, we don’t.

    If we don’t, basic enforcement of the law because unbalanced and ripe for malcontents to accuse the system of having two different standards of enforcement.

    This cannot be sustained.

    whembly (d116f3)

  56. Ta-ra! Ta-ra! Charge!

    Nobody has been charged, yet. Not even Trump.

    The FBI had to apply to a judge for a search warrant for Mar-a-Lago because Trump was stonewalling, but that was not necessary for either Biden or Pence.

    nk (337bdb)

  57. @57 Please explain General Patraous slap on the wrist. (he plead guilty to avoid prison).

    Many underlings are getting even more severe punishments.

    Yet, Biden, Trump, HRC, Pence, Obama (and others) all broke the letter AND spirit of the law and will likely escape prosecution.

    The fact that the politically connected can get away with this, or even a slap on the wrist, while peons get absolutely hammered, whether fairly or not, will not work well with the voting public.

    It’s how populism rises.

    It’s how we get more Trump. (aka, “Outsider” in 2016. He’s not an outsider now tho).

    whembly (d116f3)

  58. Yet, Biden, Trump, HRC, Pence, Obama (and others) all broke the letter AND spirit of the law and will likely escape prosecution.

    I don’t know Obama did, but…
    Biden, he could be nailed for “gross negligence” and, at some point (which may have already been crossed), it may be proven that he “willfully retained” the classified materials, and we’ll se what Hur concludes.
    Trump, guilty as sin, for obstruction and for willfully retaining materials relating to the national defense.
    HRC, should have been nailed for gross negligence at the least, but Comey gave her a pass.
    Pence, if this discovery is the only thing, he should get a pass, unless a prosecutor can prove he knowingly kept them at his house.

    The way I read the Espionage Act, it’s illegal to keep the materials, but criminal to do so willfully, and even more so if they’re not returned upon request.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  59. My proposal:

    1. Forget about charging Trump for the mar-a-Lago cache. No, Biden’s sins and Pence’s sins are not as bad, but still..

    2. Change the law to something people are willing to live by. I know Congress is about Performance rather than legislation, but still…

    3. Pardon a lot of people for violating these screcy rules in the past. Including the ones who have served their time, because this should be removed from their record.

    It’s too bad I don’t run the world, eh?

    Appalled (03f53c)

  60. @59

    The way I read the Espionage Act, it’s illegal to keep the materials, but criminal to do so willfully, and even more so if they’re not returned upon request.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 1/24/2023 @ 11:19 am

    Willful intent isn’t necessary.

    Only gross negligence.

    The issue, though, is what does it really mean by “gross negligence”.

    whembly (d116f3)

  61. The only “evidence” that the zapper wasn’t functional was a claim from the defendant. How convenient.

    Last I looked, proving the charge is false is not the defendant’s job. The prosecutor failed to do it, but the jury convicted anyway. This is the kind of thing that gives “DC jury” a bad rep.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  62. Willful intent isn’t necessary.

    It actually is. See paragraph (d) of the act. I don’t doubt Trump that would not have faced legal trouble had he complied with the subpoena. More here.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  63. The optics here are terrible if you are trying to convince the public that justice is being done.

    The optics are great if you are trying to instill fear however.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  64. @62, Kevin, the Jury could also have not found the defendant credible in his testimony

    Time123 (25f464)

  65. DOj: ny fbi office colluded with guilani before 2016 election. Ohio state legislators on trial for taking 60 million in bribes.

    asset (5b5221)

  66. mike pence found to have secret documents.

    asset (5b5221)

  67. @63

    Willful intent isn’t necessary.

    It actually is. See paragraph (d) of the act. I don’t doubt Trump that would not have faced legal trouble had he complied with the subpoena. More here.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 1/24/2023 @ 11:54 am

    I’m a programmer by nature, and… I’m not seeing it.

    Section (f) is all is needed. You don’t need to satisfy every section in order to be breaking the law.

    whembly (d116f3)

  68. I’m a programmer by nature, and… I’m not seeing it.

    Good to know. I’m a CPA and technical writer, and I see it fine. I linked to Lawfare because they have a good explanation.

    The part of the Espionage Act that is likely most relevant in this case is § 793(d). It applies to individuals who lawfully accessed material:

    “relating to the national defense,” and who proceeded either willfully to convey it to “any person not entitled to receive it,” or willfully to “retain[] the same and fail[] to deliver it on demand to the officer or employee of the United States entitled to receive it.”

    And this.

    Additionally, courts have interpreted the willfulness requirement to mean that the offending conveyance or retention must have been done knowingly.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  69. @69 Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 1/24/2023 @ 1:37 pm
    Nice!

    (f)Whoever, being entrusted with or having lawful possession or control of any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, note, or information, relating to the national defense, (1) through gross negligence permits the same to be removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of his trust, or to be lost, stolen, abstracted, or destroyed, or (2) having knowledge that the same has been illegally removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of its trust, or lost, or stolen, abstracted, or destroyed, and fails to make prompt report of such loss, theft, abstraction, or destruction to his superior officer—
    Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.

    Care to explain how any of these “more equal than others” are not violating section (f) then? Particularly this:

    …through gross negligence permits the same to be removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of his trust, or to be lost, stolen, abstracted, or destroyed,

    whembly (d116f3)

  70. @69 https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/gross_negligence
    gross negligence

    Gross negligence is a lack of care that demonstrates reckless disregard for the safety or lives of others, which is so great it appears to be a conscious violation of other people’s rights to safety. Gross negligence is a heightened degree of negligence representing an extreme departure from the ordinary standard of care. Falling between intent to do wrongful harm and ordinary negligence, gross negligence is defined as willful, wanton, and reckless conduct affecting the life or property or another.

    Gross negligence is considered more harmful than ordinary negligence because it implies a thoughtless disregard of the consequences and the failure to use even slight care to avoid harming the life or property of another. As such, someone who is found liable for gross negligence can be responsible for higher damages than ordinary negligence.

    Its arguably reasonable to say that what Trump did, Biden did, General Paetrous did, Hillary Clinton did (at minimum!) constitution as grossly negligent.

    whembly (d116f3)

  71. Yes, whembly, we agree about the gross negligence part of it.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  72. @72

    Yes, whembly, we agree about the gross negligence part of it.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 1/24/2023 @ 2:15 pm

    Then what were we arguing about? lol…

    whembly (d116f3)

  73. Then what were we arguing about? lol…

    There’s willful retention and gross negligence. To me, Trump is the former and Biden is the latter, given all the places the latter has scattered classified materials. There’s still the off chance he didn’t know about any of this and that staffers messed him up, which may have been plausible on findings 1, 2 or 3, but five different findings? I doubt it.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  74. There’s willful retention and gross negligence.

    Ignorance of the law is no excuse.

    At least for the peons.

    DCSCA (f42b2e)

Leave a Reply


Powered by WordPress.

Page loaded in: 0.1860 secs.