Patterico's Pontifications

12/21/2022

President Zelensky Comes To Washington D.C.

Filed under: General — Dana @ 10:53 am



[guest post by Dana]

He made the announcement on Twitter:

The schedule for Ukraine’s president includes meeting with President Biden, a joint press conference, and tonight, Zelensky will speak before Congress. Reports suggest that he will thank the United States for all of the aid provided to Ukraine. Also, in a significant move, it is being reported that the U.S. will send a Patriot missile system to Ukraine to help support its air defense capabilities

In reading about Zelensky’s visit, there seem to be two camps in which people fall. Simplistically put: It’s a great thing that President Zelensky is visiting the United States and speaking before Congress about his country’s ongoing battle for Democracy and freedom from the aggression of Putin because it will shine an even brighter spotlight on the dangers of letting fascism get a foothold in Western nations, or, Zelensky’s visit is simply an opportunist coming to plead for more financial aid after having already receiving billions of dollars from the United States “while Americans go hungry.” The former considers the situation with an eye toward the lives lost and the devastating impact on Western nations if Putin is successful in taking over Ukraine. There is a belief that, at the very least, Western nations have both a moral and strategic obligation to push back on this as much as is in their power to do so. The other view is more blinkered, believing that we have no business being involved in the business of other nations’ conflicts, let alone providing financial aid. There seems to be no real strategic consideration or long-term view of how a Putin win might impact the West or any real consideration of the ongoing humanitarian crisis and devastation wrought by the hands of the invaders.

With that, I’m going to point you to this analysis, which delves into the political motivations behind the latter view of the situation. And it isn’t pretty:

Congress, meanwhile, is about to decide on sending billions more in aid. Ukraine needs this money not only to continue the fight but also for its people to survive as they face a harsh winter of violence from the man who vows not to end this war until Ukraine is under his control.

It seems apparent that Zelensky decided to make the trip to Washington because he is worried about the imminent GOP takeover of the House. He should be. Many of the Republicans who are about to become members of the majority—and to chair committees—have descended into reflexive mulishness about Ukraine, opposing whatever it is that President Joe Biden wants, solely as a matter of partisan showboating. Goaded on by the trolls and contrarians in the conservative press, people who professed to care little what was happening in Ukraine a year ago have pledged to exercise tight “oversight” of U.S. aid to Ukraine—as though the largest war in Europe since World War II is an over-budget consulting contract in suburban Virginia.

The real question, though, is whether anything Zelensky can say will matter to a Republican Party that has decided to torment the ghost of Ronald Reagan by taking sides with a neo-imperial Soviet nostalgist.

Hitting the nail on the head:

Overall, of course, rank-and-file Republicans support aiding Ukraine against Russia. But the Trumpian GOP is now controlled by its fringe, the same activists and primary voters who wear the i’d rather be a russian than a democrat T-shirts. Although much of the aid for Ukraine (including the Patriot system) is already in the pipeline, GOP grandstanding for the base could create more danger for Ukraine by encouraging Putin to believe that America’s commitment to freedom will wane over time. Indeed, the Russian president’s decision to invade Ukraine, as The New York Times reported this weekend, was predicated in part on his belief in the West’s weakness and short attention span.

Republicans performing for their base are unlikely to change their views now. But Zelensky is about to speak to all of America, and his presence in Washington will help remind people that this is not some esoteric foreign-policy tangle, but a brutal, bloody human contest between democracy and authoritarianism. His presence in front of a divided Congress might—at least, we can hope—help Americans ignore the cartoonish objections of right-wing pundits and strengthen the broader bipartisan coalition in the United States dedicated to protecting freedom in Europe and around the world.

And right on cue:

Ah, this:

Former Russian president Dmitry Medvedev has undertaken a surprise trip to Beijing and held talks with Chinese President Xi Jinping during which he said they discussed the Ukraine conflict…Medvedev said he and Xi had discussed the two countries’ “no limits” strategic partnership, as well as Ukraine. He did not provide further details…”We discussed cooperation between the two ruling parties of China and Russia … bilateral cooperation within our strategic partnership, including on the economy and industrial production. We also discussed international issues – including, of course, the conflict in Ukraine,” Medvedev said.

–Dana

264 Responses to “President Zelensky Comes To Washington D.C.”

  1. Hello.

    Dana (1225fc)

  2. I heard about this trip early last night. It was actually planned at least as far back as Sunday. Yesterday he visited a battlefield – Bakhmut – where they are fighting the Wagner group – they are fighting them so that it should not win Putin’s preference, although they probably can’t scale up anyway – and he got at least as close to the action as President Lincoln sometimes did in the U.S. Civil War. He handed out medals and said wherever Russia goes they leave behind devastation and they are preventing that from happening to more of Ukraine.

    Throughout the war, Zelensky has never left the country (maybe afraid he would not be able to fly back, or that it would be taken as a sign of an imminent surrender) He has appeared at many meetings via video conference and in fact addressed the U.S. Congress that way in March. His wife came once.

    and the devastating impact on Western nations if Putin is successful in taking over Ukraine.

    It’s not a question of Ukraine being defended. Zelensky isn’t coming to ask for that. Support for that is baked in. What he doesn’t want is that the United States should stop with that.

    Zelensky isn’t coming to ask for a Patriot missile system. He’s getting it. He’s asking for more – enough to destroy ALL Russian missiles, not just 60% to 80% or 90% of them. The small percentage that get through are creating a lot of damage to Ukraine’s electrical and water infrastructure, and they are running out of parts to repair.

    He’s probably going to say, at least privately, that Ukraine needs to attack some targets in Russia in order to stop the barrage and going to ask the U.S. to allow its weapons to be used on targets in Russia.

    There’s nothing else, unless the policy is that the war should go on.

    Russia is actually running out of missiles so victory (or Putin abandoning the war and suing for peace) might be closer than you might think. Putin will be very careful not to give any signs he is considering that. His concessions are always a welcome surprise to his interlocutors. .

    Two recent missiles were fired from a ship and from an airplane – not standard.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  3. Included in the same $1.85B package as the Patriot system:

    ……..
    ………The Pentagon will send an undisclosed number of Joint Direct Attack Munitions kits, or JDAMs, to Ukraine. The U.S. also will fund satellite communications terminals and services, to shore up a potential vulnerability for Ukraine after Musk said his company could no longer afford to provide the services for free.

    The kits will be used to modify massive bombs by adding tail fins and precision navigation systems so that rather than being simply dropped from a fighter jet onto a target, they can be released and guided to a target.

    The satellite money would act as a hedge against the possibility that Musk again threatens to stop funding them. Musk shipped the first Starlink terminals to Ukraine just days after Russia invaded in February, and as of October there were more than 2,200 of the low-orbiting satellites providing broadband internet to Ukraine.
    ……..
    Also included in the aid package are more rockets for the High Mobility Artillery Rocket Systems, or HIMARS; 500 precision-guided artillery rounds for howitzers; 30 mortar systems and 10,000 mortar rounds; 37 Mine Resistant Ambush Protected (MRAP) Vehicles; 120 Humvees; six armored trucks; more than 2,700 grenade launchers and other weapons, an undisclosed numbeer of HARM air-to-surface anti-radiation missiles; Claymore anti-personnel mines; demolition munitions and other equipment and body armor.

    The Ukraine Security Assistance Initiative, which pays for longer-range purchases, will fund more than 200,000 rounds of various types of ammunitions, the satellite systems, and ongoing training and maintenance.
    ………
    The aid comes as Congress is poised to approve another $44.9 billion in assistance for Ukraine as part of a massive spending bill.
    ………

    It will be interesting to see who boycotts/walks out Zylensky’s speech.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  4. He’s probably going to say, at least privately, that Ukraine needs to attack some targets in Russia ….

    They already have.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  5. Kremlin warning: More US arms to Ukraine will aggravate war

    Says the government that started the war.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  6. Why castles get stormed:

    President Zelensky Comes To Washington D.C.

    Hmmmm… Z is 44:

    Ukrainian males aged 18-60 are banned from leaving the country, Zelensky says.

    https://www.cnn.com/europe/live-news/ukraine-russia-news-02-24-22-intl/h_4309a4916d57670f85519210a07fb2c9/

    ‘Some apes, it seems, are more equal than others.’ – George Taylor [Charlton Heston] ‘Planet of the Apes’ 1968

    DCSCA (ff2896)

  7. @3. And America’s MIC, particularly Raytheon, smiled…

    Patriot Missiles Are Made in America and Fail Everywhere

    The evidence is in: the missile defense system that the United States and its allies rely on is a lemon…

    https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/03/28/patriot-missiles-are-made-in-america-and-fail-everywhere/

    Meanwhile, Europe has perfectly good missile defense systems to goffer– and carry the burden of the costs:

    ‘The SAMP/T air defense missile system was developed by EUROSAM, a joint venture by MBDA France and Italy, and Thales. The SAMP/T was deployed operationally by the French Army and Air Force, as well as Italian Army in 2011.’

    https://www.militarytoday.com/missiles/sampt.htm#

    DCSCA (ff2896)

  8. Nichols is the fringe; a RINO who ran out:

    ‘Tom Nichols describes himself as a Never Trump conservative. During the 2016 presidential campaign, Nichols argued that conservatives should vote for Hillary Clinton, whom he detested, because Trump was “too mentally unstable” to serve as commander-in-chief.

    Nichols continued that type of argument for the 2018 midterm elections and advocated that Republicans could save the party by electing as many Democrats as possible in that election. Following the confirmation of Brett Kavanaugh to the Supreme Court of the United States, Nichols announced on October 7, 2018, that he would leave the Republican Party to become an independent. He claimed that Senator Susan Collins’s “yes” vote on the confirmation convinced him that the Republican Party exists to exercise raw political power. He stated that the Republicans have become a threat to the rule of law and to constitutional norms. Nichols also criticized the Democratic Party for being “torn between totalitarian instincts on one side and complete political malpractice on the other”. He said that with the exception of Senators Chris Coons, Sheldon Whitehouse, and Amy Klobuchar, the Democratic party’s behavior during the Kavanaugh hearings was “detestable”.

    In an opinion column published in 2019, Nichols cited the Mueller Report to argue that Trump failed in his role as a citizen and then as commander-in-chief, by not doing more to prevent and punish the Russian interference in the 2016 U.S. presidential election. In April 2022, Nichols was quoted regarding the invasion of Ukraine by Russia, stating: “If Putin’s goal was to cement his grip on power by making Russia hated for decades to come, well, congratulations, I guess.” -source, wikibio

    DCSCA (ff2896)

  9. 4. Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 12/21/2022 @ 11:38 am

    They already have [attacked some targets in Russia

    Not with U.S. made weapons, I think. They MacGyver a lot.

    The United States was so afraid of escalation and World War III that it
    even attempted to stop Ukraine from launching something that could have killed the the chief of the Russian general staff.

    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2022/12/16/world/europe/russia-putin-war-failures-ukraine.html

    American officials realized early on that they had vastly overestimated Russia’s military. The morale of rank-and-file soldiers was so low, the Americans said, that Russia began moving its generals to the front lines to shore it up.

    But the generals made a deadly mistake: They positioned themselves near antennas and communications arrays, making them easy to find, the Americans said.

    Ukraine started killing Russian generals, yet the risky Russian visits to the front lines continued. Finally, in late April, the Russian chief of the general staff, Gen. Valery Gerasimov, made secret plans to go himself.

    American officials said they found out, but kept the information from the Ukrainians, worried they would strike. Killing General Gerasimov could sharply escalate the conflict, officials said, and while the Americans were committed to helping Ukraine, they didn’t want to set off a war between the United States and Russia.

    The Ukrainians learned of the general’s plans anyway, putting the Americans in a bind. After checking with the White House, senior American officials asked the Ukrainians to call off the attack.

    “We told them not to do it,” a senior American official said. “We were like, ‘Hey, that’s too much.’”

    The message arrived too late. Ukrainian military officials told the Americans that they had already launched their attack on the general’s position.

    Dozens of Russians were killed in the strike, officials said. General Gerasimov wasn’t one of them.

    Russian military leaders scaled back their visits to the front after that.

    Another argument against that could be that maybe he might be replaced by someone more competent, or someone at a lower rank who was capable could be promoted. Small chance, but possible.
    They worried about this thing – about World War III even though at times when they ignored Putin’s bluffs, because they didn’t find it plausible, because he did it too much, nothing happened and Putin stopped making that particular threat.

    It’s only real if it threatens to be the end of everything — and that is Russian military doctrine, and sometimes Putin wants us to know that.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  10. “…receiving billions of dollars from the United States “while Americans go hungry.”

    Many people who say this really don’t give a crap about Americans going hungry. Or at least not black or brown ones.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  11. I sure hope that Zelenski’s trip home is a safe one. Maybe Air France.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  12. Ukrainian males aged 18-60 are banned from leaving the country, Zelensky says.

    If the US was ever in that kind of fix, I guarantee you that draft-age men (& women!) trying to leave the country would be stopped. We still have a draft, it’s just inactive.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  13. Ukraine needs to be able to hit utilities in Belarus and Russia proper. Russians don’t care if Ukrainians freeze this winter, but they may care if Russians are freezing. This doesn’t have to be huge explosions. Lots of aluminum chaff in the distribution yards works wonders. Ukraine must have the ability to fight back.

    Putin cannot stand if Russians turn on him. The nearest “off-ramp” at hand is “Putin loses power.”

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  14. And frankly, I don’t care if we give Zelenski missiles with a 200-mile range and cluster-bomblet warheads.

    And if we are so concerned that Putin might start a thermonuclear war, we should be trying to kill the crazy fukk.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  15. ‘…a Republican Party that has decided to torment the ghost of Ronald Reagan by taking sides with a neo-imperial Soviet nostalgist.’

    Golly, imagine how tortured his spirt was in life when, as a D, he voted for FDR four times when America allied w/t Soviet Stalin. 😉

    DCSCA (3fc202)

  16. Yeah, I remember just last week when Biden was calling Reagan one for the greatest Democrat presidents! But then Biden has the excuse of senility.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  17. Ukraine needs to be able to hit utilities in Belarus and Russia proper.

    And the Germans as well as the Froggies have the best firepower in Europe w/t budgets to do it. But then, they’re pipelined and wired to them there Rooskie ‘utilities’… aren’t them. Such a burdensome problem for them. And it is their problem. Not one for the USA.

    DCSCA (3fc202)

  18. Our Congress cares more about the invasion of Ukraine than the invasion of America. Shows where their priorities lie and proves they want a demographic change domestically.

    NJRob (26697a)

  19. I found this about Patriot missiles:

    https://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~mignotte/IFT2425/Disasters.html#:~:text=The%20destroyed%20rocket%20and%20its,in%20the%20inertial%20reference%20system.

    The Patriot Missile failure in Dharan, Saudi Arabia, on February 25, 1991 which resulted in 28 deaths, is ultimately attributable to poor handling of rounding errors.

    On February 25, 1991, during the Gulf War, an American Patriot Missile battery in Dharan, Saudi Arabia, failed to track and intercept an incoming Iraqi Scud missile. The Scud struck an American Army barracks, killing 28 soldiers and injuring around 100 other people. Patriot missile

    A report of the General Accounting office, GAO/IMTEC-92-26, entitled Patriot Missile Defense: Software Problem Led to System Failure at Dhahran, Saudi Arabia reported on the cause of the failure.

    It turns out that the cause was an inaccurate calculation of the time since boot due to computer arithmetic errors. Specifically, the time in tenths of second as measured by the system’s internal clock was multiplied by 1/10 to produce the time in seconds. This calculation was performed using a 24 bit fixed point register. In particular, the value 1/10, which has a non-terminating binary expansion, was chopped at 24 bits after the radix point.

    The small chopping error, when multiplied by the large number giving the time in tenths of a second, lead to a significant error. Indeed, the Patriot battery had been up around 100 hours, and an easy calculation shows that the resulting time error due to the magnified chopping error was about 0.34 seconds. (The number 1/10 equals 1/24+1/25+1/28+1/29+1/212 +1/213+…. In other words, the binary expansion of 1/10 is 0.0001100110011001100110011001100…. Now the 24 bit register in the Patriot stored instead 0.00011001100110011001100 introducing an error of 0.0000000000000000000000011001100… binary, or about 0.000000095 decimal. Multiplying by the number of tenths of a second in 100 hours gives 0.000000095×100×60×60×10=0.34.)

    A Scud travels at about 1,676 meters per second, and so travels more than half a kilometer in this time. This was far enough that the incoming Scud was outside the “range gate” that the Patriot tracked. Ironically, the fact that the bad time calculation had been improved in some parts of the code, but not all, contributed to the problem, since it meant that the inaccuracies did not cancel.

    The following paragraph is excerpted from the GAO report:

    “The range gate’s prediction of where the Scud will next appear is a function of the Scud’s known velocity and the time of the last radar detection. Velocity is a real number that can be expressed as a whole number and a decimal (e.g., 3750.2563…miles per hour). Time is kept continuously by the system’s internal clock in tenths of seconds but is expressed as an integer or whole number (e.g., 32, 33, 34…). The longer the system has been running, the larger the number representing time. To predict where the Scud will next appear, both time and velocity must be expressed as real numbers. Because of the way the Patriot computer performs its calculations and the fact that its registers are only 24 bits long, the conversion of time from an integer to a real number cannot be any more precise than 24 bits. This conversion results in a loss of precision causing a less accurate time calculation. The effect of this inaccuracy on the range gate’s calculation is directly proportional to the target’s velocity and the length of the the system has been running. Consequently, performing the conversion after the Patriot has been running continuously for extended periods causes the range gate to shift away from the center of the target, making it less likely that the target, in this case a Scud, will be successfully intercepted.”

    The people operating a Patriot missile maybe have to do it right.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  20. @16. That puts you ahead of Biden, who doesn’t remember last week. 😉

    DCSCA (3fc202)

  21. MJT and the trumpsters replaces 1960’s hippy peaceniks as anti war peace freaks. Next MJT pulls a Jane Fonda and goes to russia!

    asset (88ac89)

  22. @18. Our Congress cares more about the invasion of Ukraine than the invasion of America. Shows where their priorities lie and proves they want a demographic change domestically.

    The Royalist POV. Castles have been stormed for less.

    DCSCA (3fc202)

  23. The people operating a Patriot missile maybe have to do it right.

    And guess who’ll be in harm’s way training them.

    How many Poles does it take to screw in a light bulb? 😉

    DCSCA (3fc202)

  24. Our Congress cares more about the invasion of Ukraine than the invasion of America. Shows where their priorities lie and proves they want a demographic change domestically.

    That may be. That does not mean that they are wrong on Ukraine. Biden’s policy there is a bright light in an otherwise terrible administration. Trump had some moments, too.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  25. Next MJT pulls a Jane Fonda and goes to russia!

    I have no problem with that. Coming home again is another matter.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  26. I think that the comparison of the Trumpies and the hippies is a good one. Both liked the enemy side more.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  27. You would think they could find a better translator

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  28. According to the press, the budget that looks to pass has 44 billion earmarked for Ukraine. Seems like a lot, plenty in fact for one year. Wondering why Zelensky feels a need for an official visit – does he want more?

    Hoi Polloi (84c962)

  29. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vL-DAhpkVtc

    Zelensky Biden press conference today

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  30. Zelensky’s joint address to Congress is currently scheduled for 7:30 p.m.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  31. EST

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  32. I’m not persuaded:

    Zelensky’s leaving his country would not detract from the reality of his commitment to it, or of his wartime feats. But optically, it would risk validating criticisms that his detractors, in this country and abroad, have made from the start of the conflict. The arguments that he could better advocate his country’s interests by being in ours are outweighed by the reputational and strategic risks of a visit. Russian propagandists have tried to pretend that Zelensky has left Ukraine on certain occasions, when in fact he has not done so. And when Russia’s invasion began, the Biden administration offered him an exit from the country, which he declined.

    Other considerations should also factor in. While the war effort itself will almost certainly survive a brief departure, and while the U.S. should almost certainly be able to assure Zelensky’s security, why leave anything to chance? Moreover, New York Times reporting suggests that Zelensky’s visit “would also put Republicans on Capitol Hill opposed” to further Ukraine aid “in the potentially uncomfortable position of opposing the aid even as the Ukrainian leader appears on Capitol Hill.”

    Dana (1225fc)

  33. No matter what Zelensky does or where he goes, Russian propagandists are going to do their thing. At this point, I don’t think many are persuaded.

    Too bad if it puts Republicans opposed to further Ukraine aid in an awkward position. Let them say it out loud so we can know who they are. Let them take the political risk and own their position.

    Dana (1225fc)

  34. Our Congress cares more about the invasion of Ukraine than the invasion of America. Shows where their priorities lie and proves they want a demographic change domestically.

    It’s not a blinkered one-or-the-other situation. Adults can manage to have simultaneous views about two different situations.

    Dana (1225fc)

  35. @30. Dress for success: you’d think w/billions of tax dollars conned out of the U.S. Congress the comedian would lose the Castro costume, combat boots and buy himself a frigging blue suit to wear addressing Congress– it does have a dress code ‘ya know. Besides, the bum’s being invited into hundreds of living rooms on the TeeVee, too– doesn’t mean he has to dress like one.

    DCSCA (24e34f)

  36. It’s not a blinkered one-or-the-other situation. Adults can manage to have simultaneous views about two different situations.

    Dana (1225fc) — 12/21/2022 @ 3:27 pm

    Sure it is or our drunken spending government would’ve put billions into the absurd bill they passed for our own border security. Instead they sent billions to other nations. Would’ve been easy to match the amount. But those borders matter to them. Not ours.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  37. https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/until-the-border-is-secure-ukraine-and-everything-else-should-wait/

    Dana,

    or not.

    You’ve heard, of course, that the disgraceful omnibus Senate Republicans are colluding with Democrats to greenlight would provide $45 billion more for the security of Ukraine. But you probably haven’t heard that it actually contains a provision that expressly forbids the United States Customs and Border Protection agency to use its funding “to acquire, maintain, or extend border security technology.” (See the tweet by Representative Dan Bishop [R., N.C.], here.)

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  38. Look at that bum; dressed like a janitor addressing the Congress of the United States.

    DCSCA (834703)

  39. Our Congress cares more about the invasion of Ukraine than the invasion of America.

    Yep. Because it’s easier for Royalists to meddle in other people’s problems to the benefit of the investor class– and who have no vote to hold you accountable nor pay for any services than addressing the problems of your own constituents who DO pay your salary and CAN hold you accountable. This is why populism id rooting deeper and deeper- and castles get stormed.

    DCSCA (834703)

  40. Bad enough he wants our help defending his country from an unprovoked genocidal invasion by America’s most belligerent expansionist adversary. But when he breaks the law against saying “Merry Christmas,” that’s where I draw the line.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  41. Before it started, CBS News’ Major Garrett noted that Zelensky’s appearance was choregraphed like that of State of the Union message.

    House Speaker even introduced him similarly, except that instead of the president of the United States, it was president of the Ukraine.

    That’s right “the” Ukraine. Which is the natural and historical way of talking about it.

    If you want to make it sound more like a standalone name of a country, it should be Ukrainia.

    Zelensky, by the way, referred to “Americans” Not like Stanford University wants.

    His English is probably better than it was in 2019, but some words were pronounced incorrectly. You had to think about how it was written, He spoke of Eeran. (Russia had found an ally)

    Sammy Finkelman (c833d3)

  42. The thought occurred to me how unpredictable this moment would have appeared 35 years ago. We have both an independent Ukraine, and a Russian war against it by a evil Russian state. Russia is not free at the moment, but Ukraine is. Things had to go this way and that way to get to this point.

    Sammy Finkelman (c833d3)

  43. Zwlwnsaky brought up both the Battle of the Bulge (implying that what is expected is perhaps Russia’s last gasp – although he also used it to talk of bravery) and the Battle of Saratoga during the American Revolution, saying that was a turning point and they could have one soon.

    He said he had a 10-point peace plan which President Biden had agreed to. This plan included compensation for all the damage Russia had done.

    Sammy Finkelman (c833d3)

  44. But he lied about Christmas. He said, first, that Christmas was in two days, which works out to December 23. and then he said Ukrainians would be celebrating it. Most do not celebrate it on December 25 (or 24th) of the Gregorian calendar/ It xomes out there 13 days later.

    Sammy Finkelman (c833d3)

  45. (most) Ukrainian and American Christians don’t celebrate the same holiday.

    Sammy Finkelman (c833d3)

  46. the largest war in Europe since World War II

    This is a patently false statement, but it’s no surprise that overeducated moron Nichols made it. The Balkan conflicts went on for the entire 1990s and killed well over 100,000 people, although I do have to laugh at the irony that the best player in America’s NBA for the last two years has been a Serbian.

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d)

  47. MTG is right; this is why castles get stormed:

    Lindsey Graham Admits Spending Bill Is ‘Train Wreck’ but Will Vote for It

    https://www.newsweek.com/senator-lindsey-graham-calls-omnibus-spending-bill-train-wreck-will-vote-it-1768814

    Instead of wasting time listening to the Ukrainian janitor, these Congresscritters outta have been locked in their damn offices reading that 4,155-page page Omnibus bill.

    DCSCA (834703)

  48. “There seems to be no real strategic consideration or long-term view of how a Putin win might impact the West or any real consideration of the ongoing humanitarian crisis and devastation wrought by the hands of the invaders.”
    Sure there are. Begins and ends with “European problems should be handled first and foremost by Europeans” and that isn’t looney

    I’d guess some of the fringier GOP are not ready to forgive and forget Ukrainian role in the impeachment of Trump led by the “Ukraine First” snitch Vindman.

    I have not looked into these rolling bequeathings of Billions, and don’t really how much of the aid has been the US Dept. of Defense running a first in, first out clearing shelves of old weapons and how much was cash.

    The Ukrainians have done well with the weaponry, but who knows where any cash has gone.

    Another question where is Code Pink?

    steveg (74fd5c)

  49. https://www.codepink.org/letter_to_the_left_on_ukraine

    I think they agree more or less with MTG

    steveg (74fd5c)

  50. @51. Horseshoe.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  51. Doe! @50, not @51.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  52. @34 Banana.

    JF (985aea)

  53. Judging from the post, looks like the competing views on aid to Ukraine boil down to:

    A. Yay Democracy and Freedom, Truth and Light
    B. Yay Russia and Fascism, Darkness and Devastation

    Gee, how much time do we have to mull this over???

    JF (985aea)

  54. The question is which side of history do we want to be on? Are we ok with an authoritarian power butchering a sovereign nation, not because of some valid dispute or defensive need, but simply because a tyrrant wants to put a little bit more of the free world under his jackboot.

    With what we have done so far, we have enabled Ukrainians to fight for Ukraine and, in the process, expose the Russian army and Russian political system for the horrid states that they are. We’ve helped create pressure for regime change, as ordinary Russian people suffer and see their loved ones go off to die in a war that doesn’t make any sense. Oligarchs are dropping like flies and losing money…and, more importantly, legitimacy in the west. And for what, a little Napoleon wanna be? At what point will the dead…and the sanctions compel a change.

    Some complain that this dulls their own clamor for domestic regime change. We have to give up Ukraine so we can get back to our own toxic internal politics. It’s no fun if this lets Biden look like an actual leader. We must tear, tear, tear him down incessantly….to feel normal. We can’t aspire to opposing real evil and standing up for people that just want better than the cloak of autoritarianism. Somehow we can’t do that and continue our national paralysis on the southern border. Our big thinkers simply want to keep doing the same thing and hope for a different result. Talk about banging your head on the wall……

    AJ_Liberty (811aff)

  55. ‘There seems to be no real strategic consideration or long-term view…’

    The long term view to consider:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_invasions_and_occupations_of_Ukraine

    This is NOT an American problem.

    DCSCA (214abd)

  56. Gee, how much time do we have to mull this over???

    JF (985aea) — 12/21/2022 @ 8:18 pm

    Mulling things over is what Putin wants you to do. Don’t fall for the trick.

    frosty (e58b79)

  57. The question is which side of history do we want to be on?

    For starters, see #57 and learn some.

    DCSCA (214abd)

  58. It’s no fun if this lets Biden look like an actual leader.

    I’m ok with that. When do you think that might start happening? After them joking about us sending them all the Patriot missiles? Or after Z tells Biden they won’t accept anything less than retribution?

    The underlying theme of that joint press conference today was that Biden is willing to give Z anything he thinks won’t offend other countries that aren’t sending Z billions.

    frosty (e58b79)

  59. The question is which side of history do we want to be on?

    Historic determinism is a delusion.

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d)

  60. US authorities have already admitted they can’t keep track of the weapons or the money and congress voted against auditing the aid. That should be a red flag but instead caring about where the money and weapons are going is Russian disinformation.

    Anyone want to take a guess at the official cost of the war in Vietnam? Even adjusting for inflation anyone want to take a bet on when Biden’s proxy war with Russia costs more?

    frosty (e58b79)

  61. The underlying theme of that joint press conference today was…

    his diaper didn’t leak on camera.

    DCSCA (214abd)

  62. We had the same problem before we were attacked (with provocation) by japan. First the communists who had been attacking hitler had to stand on their heads after hitler/stalin pact. Then the enablers of hitler in the republican party complained about lend lease and roosevelt meeting with churchill in august 1941. Their are pacifists on the left. Gandi was a pacifist during world war II and churchill had him and others jailed. I opposed the vietnam and iraq wars and afganistan colonization. Not for pacifism ;but because they made no sense. Vietnam and america are now siding together against china! The enablers of putin in the republican party are white supremacists. We are not propping up people who don’t want to fight for their country like vietnam and iraq/afganistan with american soldiers doing their fighting for them. The red herring about the southern border comparing the russian invading army to women and children hungry only wanting to clean are portapotis for something to eat. Thats like germans asking american soldiers why are you fighting racism herewhen you have racist segregation and anti-semitism in america! Hitler enablers then putin enablers now! Instead of wasting money on military boondoggles this money hits russia and putin hard. And hina doesn’t smile DCSCA and neither do the ayatollahs in iran.

    asset (76b26b)

  63. While Zelensky was speaking of drones from Iran, it occurred to me: We cannot hit Russia because they have nukes, but there is nothing saying we cannot make our displeasure known to Iran. Knock out all the utilities supplying Qom. The people of Iran might cheer.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  64. Another question where is Code Pink?

    On the side of our enemies, as usual. It’s their raison d’être

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  65. Historic determinism is a delusion.

    Yes, but just the same, it matters which side you’re on. If it could go either way, do you want to be on the side of the fascist criminals invading Ukraine, or on the side of the righteous defenders.

    If you find this a stacked deck, give me a reason why any sane person would support Putin.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  66. @56: Well put.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  67. @66 Code pink are pacifists like Gandi who refused to side with the allies during world war II. I respect their decision ;but not being a pacifist I view the Ukraine invasion differently then they do. AOC was recently attacked at a town meeting for voting for aid to Ukraine. She will make a great president.

    asset (76b26b)

  68. Pacifists are the enemy of all. They won’t defend their freedoms and the protest those that do. But try to take their iPad.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  69. “…receiving billions of dollars from the United States “while Americans go hungry.”

    If any Americans are going hungry, it’s in red states, not in blue states. Blue states were not too “principled” to expand food, housing, medical, and unemployment assistance.

    Which is not to say that the red state policies are not correct for their states. Trump’s supporters would not use the extra money to buy food for their kids. They’d send it to Trump.

    nk (70ba47)

  70. As for the loonies, they’re important only to McCarthy. The outright loss of the Senate left them irrelevant. McCarthy and the loonies. I mean, really, who cares if McCarthy becomes Speaker? With a Democrat President and a Democrat Senate, all he does in the House will remain hot air and noise.

    nk (70ba47)

  71. Yes, but just the same, it matters which side you’re on. If it could go either way, do you want to be on the side of the fascist criminals invading Ukraine, or on the side of the righteous defenders.

    It only matters in the sense of who ends up winning the conflict, because they’re the ones who are going to determine the historical narrative (assuming it doesn’t get deconstructed a few decades later). And conflicts, especially between nations, are rarely Golden Crusades; everyone cites the Civil War and World War II, but even then the winning side committed its share of what a liberalized society would normally consider to be atrocities, despite such practices being considered SOP for millennia prior to that.

    The main point here is that history doesn’t have a “side.” That’s a marxist pretense based on their ideology of socio-economic apocalyptism, and parroting the line betrays a very didactic understanding of history itself.

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d)

  72. It only matters in the sense of who ends up winning the conflict, because they’re the ones who are going to determine the historical narrative (assuming it doesn’t get deconstructed a few decades later).

    Funny that a week ago the word “nihilist” was mysteriously being tossed about. Apply that standard to Nazi Germany, that it doesn’t matter what side you’re on, “it only matters in the sense of who ends up winning the confict”, as if there was some sort of equivalency between Nazi atrocities and those of the other side. It’s morally bereft.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  73. Funny that a week ago the word “nihilist” was mysteriously being tossed about. Apply that standard to Nazi Germany, that it doesn’t matter what side you’re on, “it only matters in the sense of who ends up winning the confict”, as if there was some sort of equivalency between Nazi atrocities and those of the other side. It’s morally bereft.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 12/22/2022 @ 5:42 am

    Funny how neocons never exercise any self-awareness or humility. Of course, if they did that, they’d probably be more likely to actually sign up to fight in the conflicts they support, instead of pointing their fellow citizens against those they’ve marked for destruction.

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d)

  74. If you find this a stacked deck, give me a reason why any sane person would support Putin.
    Kevin M (1ea396) — 12/21/2022 @ 11:38 pm

    looks like opposing putin and being a righteous defender means funneling taxpayer money to FTX

    a sane person would not equate auditing aid with supporting putin, nor would a sane person offer a blank check

    JF (985aea)

  75. You’d think with all the billions we have sent him that he could afford a suit and tie to wear when he spoke in front of Congress. Or is a sweatshirt considered formal wear in the Ukraine?

    kaf (6fa9cd)

  76. the war will end eventually with Zelenskyy agreeing to terms he could’ve gotten a year ago, minus the death and destruction and Vogue cover shot

    and all the sane people will agree with other sane people that it was all worth it

    JF (985aea)

  77. That Mr. Putin does wear the most adorable suits. Simply exquisite.

    nk (bb1548)

  78. Which is not to say that the red state policies are not correct for their states. Trump’s supporters would not use the extra money to buy food for their kids. They’d send it to Trump.
    nk (70ba47) — 12/22/2022 @ 4:54 am

    i dunno, i think red states are doing the best they can considering the circumstances blue state voters put them in

    Migrants take over streets of El Paso – after evading cartels and border patrols – to find food banks just days from running dry

    El Paso convention center is turned into makeshift migrant shelter with 1,000 beds as warmhearted locals buy blankets, shoes and toys for thousands left stranded on freezing streets just days before Christmas

    JF (985aea)

  79. Putin is evil. His aims are evil. His war of choice is evil. There is no historical revisionism that will cast it otherwise.

    War is awful and we should do everything in our power to avoid its senselessness. However, despite strained reasoning to the opposite, we do have national interests at play here and allies with interests in Russia not keeping a foothold in Ukraine…..or exacerbating humanitarian crises with regards to energy, food, and refugees.

    Not everything is Viet Nam…or Iraq….or Afghanistan. It is true that there are no guarantees about escalation or unintended consequences. It’s why we should never put ill-prepared incompetents in the White House….whos only experience is reality tv and sneaking into beauty contest changing rooms. We have an interest in Russia losing and Putin losing. This perspective used to be readily understood on the Right. Now everything is nebulous. Interesting.

    AJ_Liberty (811aff)

  80. You’d think with all the billions we have sent him that he could afford a suit and tie to wear when he spoke in front of Congress.

    Wearing a suit wouldn’t project the same image. Underdogs don’t wear suits and asking for billions of $ in a suit would hang a light on the scam. And even with a good tailor it’d be hard to capture his manly manliness.

    And if you’re wondering what the scam is we’re on track to give Z more money than the entire Russian defense budget and we’re being told a) it’s a moral obligation, b) we shouldn’t ask where it’s going, and c) it’s a bargain at twice the price.

    In other news the CIA and FBI spend a lot of time on propaganda against the American people and that righteous work isn’t done by volunteers.

    frosty (e58b79)

  81. It’s why we should never put ill-prepared incompetents in the White House

    so glad we got that problem solved

    We have an interest in Russia losing and Putin losing. This perspective used to be readily understood on the Right. Now everything is nebulous. Interesting.
    AJ_Liberty (811aff) — 12/22/2022 @ 6:51 am

    it is understood, but it’s in your personal interest to pretend otherwise. If we could all snap our fingers and make putin and his cronies disappear after they experience some pain and suffering, I’d be all for it.

    Sounds like your plan was for wishing him away, and sorry that hasn’t worked out, and sorry your hero comes hat in hand, and sorry that those of us who thought this war would go on and on were right

    we have an interest in avoiding conflict, death on a mass scale and devastation, billions wasted, risking escalation

    this perspective used to be readily understood by everyone, except those like putin, and that’s now the common ground you and others here share with him

    JF (b1afff)

  82. The absurd complaints about Zelensky’s clothing are straight from MAGA lunatic Benny Johnson, which tells rational people all they need to know.

    This:

    Imagine reading about Ukraine, a country where people are living without heat and light, where incredibly brave men endure bombardment and artillery fire every day, where the whole nation has pulled together to stop barbarism of a kind we haven’t seen in Europe since 1944…

    And then when the president of Ukraine, after months of planning, finally manages to cross the ocean to visit, you respond with…a snarky complaint about his timing. Or his clothes.

    Or you complain because he might ask for more weapons to prevent the children in his country from being deported to Russia, the elderly from having their home destroyed and the women from being raped.

    Perhaps this doesn’t matter to the MAGA stronghold, and if it doesn’t, that speaks volumes and is disgraceful:

    Russian troops have raped and tortured children in Ukraine, carried out a “large number” of executions and committed other war crimes, according to a United Nations investigation by legal experts.

    Set up by the U.N. to probe the conduct of the war, the Independent International Commission of Inquiry reported its chilling findings Friday in Geneva, describing a long list of abuses and atrocities in four regions.

    “Based on the evidence gathered by the commission, it has concluded that war crimes have been committed in Ukraine,” Erik Mose, the chairman of the three-member commission, told the U.N. Human Rights Council.

    Dana (1225fc)

  83. We have an interest in Russia losing and Putin losing. This perspective used to be readily understood on the Right. Now everything is nebulous. Interesting.

    That interest shouldn’t come without strings. This isn’t charity, it’s involvement in a real, actual conflict with unpredictable consequences that continues to pile up a cost. If giving Ukraine tens or even hundreds of billions to bleed Russia white is in our interest, and deficits don’t matter (not that they ever mattered since Kennedy), then logically we should not only be demanding that Zelensky remember his place, but also printing trillions to supply him with arms to take Russia out, irrespective of what it does to the economy here at home. If inflation isn’t that important, as the neocons insist (they’re only economic conservatives when it comes to tax cuts, after all, and are most assuredly not social conservatives), then no amount of money printing is too small to accomplish this goal, irrespective of how it might impact Americans in their own wallets.

    Factory Working Orphan (7e810d)

  84. It’s nothing less than jarring and shameful to see how members of a political party that once valued Democracy and freedom everywhere, have decided that a leader’s fashion sensibilities trump the nightmarish genocide of a people. Unbelievable.

    Dana (1225fc)

  85. The absurd complaints about Zelensky’s clothing are straight from MAGA lunatic Benny Johnson, which tells rational people all they need to know.

    I think the complaints are pretty silly, myself, but then again, one of the more esteemed commenters on here was inordinately fascinated with a middle-aged woman’s hairstyle simply because she wasn’t part of his tribe. So it’s not like there’s any room to complain here that Zelensky is being mocked for wearing his bunker outfit in a thoroughly supportive and protective setting.

    Factory Working Orphan (7e810d)

  86. It might also be instructive to be mindful here that the Ancien Regime planted the seeds for its own downfall by giving us financial and military aid to gain our independence, for the very same reason that they believed doing so would decimate their geopolitical rivals.

    Factory Working Orphan (7e810d)

  87. @86

    It’s nothing less than jarring and shameful to see how members of a political party that once valued Democracy and freedom everywhere, have decided that a leader’s fashion sensibilities trump the nightmarish genocide of a people. Unbelievable.

    Dana (1225fc) — 12/22/2022 @ 7:42 am

    I don’t have a problem with it.

    But I do think it was all coordinated to buttress a certain image. Things like this are carefully planned for public consumption.

    I’ve seen complaints about the Ukrainian flags being “flown” on congress’ floor as some sort of disrespect. I didn’t see that at all, as that flag was signed by the soldiers at the front line as a thank you for US support. (which I thought it was very cool).

    Look, I’m on team Ukraine here, 100%.

    But we shouldn’t be afraid to debate on sending additional fundings towards Ukraine’s war efforts.

    (Also note: Isn’t it interesting that we’ve spent nearly 100 billion dollars in less than a year? That’s staggering. I wonder if that would’ve been a nice down payment for Greenland… 😉 )

    whembly (d116f3)

  88. 87,

    I strongly disagree. The sartorial choice of the president of a country fighting for freedom and democracy and currently under siege by a maniacal thug who wants to wipe out an entire population and then claim the territory as his own is as inconsequential as a looney MAGA loser.

    Dana (1225fc)

  89. But I do think it was all coordinated to buttress a certain image. Things like this are carefully planned for public consumption.

    Whether this was or wasn’t, it should not matter one whit. Especially when considering what and where Zelensky is up against. This is the same sort of clothing he has worn throughout the war. If it’s a calculated measure to let the Ukrainian people know that he is in this battle with them and that he isn’t going anywhere, then that’s just being a smart leader. And perhaps this matters even more so when he is in the safe confines of U.S. Congress. His people need to see that he remains who he is, no matter where he is. My point is: his clothing is just another inconsequential thing for the nutty righties to hate on. And it’s pathetic. I mean, do you seriously think this joker (and other American political leaders) would stay in-country if he was in the same position as Zelensky? I think we both know the answer to that.

    Dana (1225fc)

  90. We aren’t spreading freedom anywhere. we are spreading our empire and sending gobs of our tax money to Lockheed, Raytheon, etc. Are the regular people of Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria, Yemen, etc, better off today than they were before we bombed them and their children to death over the last 20 years?

    It is sort of funny but I “blame” Patterico for my change in view point on this stuff. A few years ago he mentioned being on the Bob Murphy Show talking about plea deals and such. Bob Murphy sounded like a pretty smart guy (Patterico did too, but he doesn’t have a podcast) so I started listening to him. That eventually led me to Tom Woods, Dave Smith, and, most importantly to Scott Horton of the Libertarian Institute and antiwar.com. Horton’s Soho forum debate with Bill Kristol over our Iraq fiasco is worth a listen. if you really think our government is trying to spread liberty around the world you are sadly naïve. Heck, they don’t even want us to have it here at home. Why would they want other countries to be free?

    kaf (6fa9cd)

  91. The sartorial choice of the president of a country fighting for freedom and democracy

    Zelensky isn’t fighting for such esoteric philosophical concepts, he’s fighting for the survival of his country.

    Factory Working Orphan (7e810d)

  92. Geez, FWO…

    Dana (1225fc)

  93. @91

    I mean, do you seriously think this joker (and other American political leaders) would stay in-country if he was in the same position as Zelensky? I think we both know the answer to that.

    Dana (1225fc) — 12/22/2022 @ 8:15 am

    You would be wrong and ridiculous with that hypothetical.

    I’m from Missouri and a Josh Hawley voter.

    Josh would definitely stay “in-country if he was in the same position as Zelensky”.

    His beef isn’t with Zelensky/Ukraine at all.

    His beef with this is the lack of oversight of the money spent. It’s a hard position to take, but I think he’s right here.

    We’re essentially in a full proxy war with Russia because much of the funding is being used by Ukrainian people to fight for their country and the Europeans are basically doing jack compared to us.

    At the end of the day, the battle needs to be fought and other people’s kids (not NATO’s/US’ kids) need to die to fight it and so here’s the check.

    Is it too much of an ask for some oversight? Why are efforts like this being treated as if its a reduction or total withdrawal?

    whembly (d116f3)

  94. The German government runs a Germany First economy. They traded around sanctions in Iran and Russia, probably still do in Iran. NATO cash and weapons without the USA but with a wholehearted France and Germany should be plenty powerful enough to handle Russia in Ukraine. Macron is a limp waffle and Olaf Scholz is both stingy and half hearted. Trump was right about pushing the rest of NATO toward growing up, fulfilling obligations, preparing, budgeting to handle European problems. Obama didn’t help by spreading the false hope that Russia was not a geopolitical foe; but could be managed as just a fairly harmless geopolitical neighbor that got noisy from time to time.
    Trump pushed Europe to prepare to buy more NG from other sources and the German political elites laughed openly at him. (probably explains Donald jrs tweets. DJT jr is the most loyal… probably has to be, because he is the brother who never works, spends the most money)

    steveg (2995b5)

  95. But we shouldn’t be afraid to debate on sending additional fundings towards Ukraine’s war efforts.

    You can’t debate it or the house of cards starts to crumble.

    We’ve got commenters here who are in favor of UKR attacking civilian infrastructure inside RU and others pretending that offensive actions inside RU would be done without using resources provided by the US. And at the same time we’re told one of the many reasons Putin is evil is because he’s attacked civilian infra inside UKR and that attacking civilian infra is a war crime.

    We’ve got an ongoing story-line that we’re fighting for democracy inside UKR that is a fight for democracy everywhere when anyone who’s been paying attention to UKR for the last 10-20 years would know they aren’t remotely close to a functioning democracy and that’s partially the fault of US foreign policy. The US and RU have had at least one round of installing puppet governments and the country has been thoroughly corrupted. And don’t forget that true democracy is not debating whether we should send billions of $ to a foreign country to fight a war.

    Why this is costing so much should be an obvious question. The weapons and resources the US is giving the UKR should be far superior to RU resources and should be able to easily shutdown RU military activities. We have to ignore that we’re on track to giving them 2x the entire RU military budget.

    There’s also an unending supply of obvious pro-UKR propaganda. You’re supposed to actually believe without question that 100k Russians have died in the conflict.

    But don’t forget that the important part is that you shouldn’t make fun of Z’s outfit because that’s totally not a diversion.

    frosty (6a59e5)

  96. Whether this was or wasn’t, it should not matter one whit.

    Ok, it shouldn’t matter but wait for it …

    And perhaps this matters even more so when he is in the safe confines of U.S. Congress. His people need to see that he remains who he is, no matter where he is.

    Ok, on the other hand it does matter and it should because his people need it. But wait some more …

    My point is: his clothing is just another inconsequential thing

    Dana (1225fc) — 12/22/2022 @ 8:15 am

    It turns out that it is both inconsequential and consequential at the same time. It shouldn’t matter and it should.

    frosty (6a59e5)

  97. Geez, FWO…

    Geez, what? For all the pretense about being sophisticated thinkers by some of the commenters here, frosty has offered up a far more nuanced argument about the conflict and the actual geopolitical realities than anyone else here. This isn’t some glorified professional wrestling match or a 50s tv western, this a real war between two longtime ethno-nationalistic rivals, and debating to what extent we should actually be involved here, and the secondary impacts it could have at home, should not be out of the question.

    Factory Working Orphan (7e810d)

  98. @97 frosty… There are real debates to be had about the amount and type of US assistance, the endgame, the divergence of US and Ukrainian interests, and everything in between.

    None of this is served by trashing a man who is defending his country from an invasion.

    None of this is served by making fun of Pelosi for “flying” the Ukraine flag on congressional floor when its obviously a gift.

    None of this is served by pro-Ukraine commenters accusing others taking a my cynical position and labeling them pro-Putin.

    We OUGHT to have a spirited debate on the manner of our support of Ukraine’s efforts.

    Even if it’s a simply recognition that a “blank check” is simply a public tactic so that Putin can’t “run out the clock” in his war efforts.

    Even if it’s an acknowledgement that the US is essentially paying for Ukraine as if they’re US paid mercenaries in a proxy war against Russia, so that it’s not American/NATO lives being spent.

    At least we’d be having informed debate with proper ownership and accountability. Continuing down this path that we’re on, where it’s purely jingoistic and emotional blackmail in order to prop up support … I fear we’d be in even more danger of the war getting out of hand.

    We’ve seen this before in our history… namely WW1 and WW2.

    whembly (d116f3)

  99. I do wonder if Z, back in 2019, just gave Trump what he wanted on Hunter Biden, we’d have some of the conversations we have.

    What I do see is that Zelensky is a shrewd leader of the Ukraine. He has a war to fight and want the most help he can secure for his country. Why not ask for the stars as well as the moon?

    Part of being a leader is projecting an image. Sorry — there’s a part of that who feels like that should not be — that all judgments will be made without any emotion anywhere. If Zelensky needs to dress in fatigues to project his image — he will do that. If he needs to pose in Vogue so the left can sigh over him and send his country more money, he will do that.

    We, in this country, need to understand that Zelensky’s interests and our may not entirely align. A leader of the Ukraine, ideally, would want this war to expand. A Russia having to fight Finland and Poland and the US has less troops to send to Bakhmut. Z’s dream would be a WWIII with no nukes. (That’s a fantasy).

    Also, Ukraine has had a corruption problem for years. The evidence suggests the weapons are going where they should go, and not lining some oligarch’s pockets. But what’s wrong with oversight, as long as it isn’t a proxy for some other thing.

    My own sentiments on Ukraine — It’s OK to fall in love, but we had better have a prenup, just in case.

    It’s in our interests for Russia to weaken — as that takes them out of the international mischief business. And, really, it is the right thing to do. The Ukrainian people have been stared and assaulted an humiliated by the Russians for years. They want their own country. They actaully want it enough to fight hard and tenaciously for it. Why not help ourselves by helpng them? Here, we do well by doing right.

    Appalled (cd4bfe)

  100. Those politicians (and their supporters) who claim to be “100% behind Ukraine” are being disingenuous when they then vote against military assistance. They may claim to support Ukraine, but when push comes to shove they would have no problem with a Russian victory.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  101. Dana: “If it’s a calculated measure to let the Ukrainian people know that he is in this battle with them and that he isn’t going anywhere, then that’s just being a smart leader”

    Exactly, it’s bizarre to me that someone would even bring it up, as if disrespect was Zelensky’s purpose….or obliviousness. He is sending a message and only the obtuse would have a problem with it.

    FWO: “and deficits don’t matter….If inflation isn’t that important”

    Maybe telegraphing to Putin what dollar amount he has to wait for would be a poor tactical decision. The national debt increased by over $7T during Trump’s tenure….obviously a chunk of that is due to the exigent circumstances of Covid….but it’s also remarkable that no bold proposals were put forward…except of course his campaign claim that he would eliminate the nation’s debt in 8 years. Wow. Neither party has any authenticity on the matter.

    Personally, I don’t see it as some big black hole. We’re paying our defense contractors…who…the last I checked….employ Americans to design, build, and test these systems. We are able to see how well these systems perform without having to put Americans directly in harm’s way. We are degrading the Russian war machine and eviscerating morale…meaning less ability and will to further wage war. We’re lessening the effects of an even greater human crisis in food, energy, and refugees. Our markets aren’t constrained by sanctions. Putin’s are.

    AJ_Liberty (811aff)

  102. Putin’s Useful Idiots: Right Wingers Lose It Over Zelensky Visit
    ……..
    ……..(Tucker Carlson) insisted that Zelensky is seeking not just to “push the Russian army back to pre-invasion borders,” which even Carlson conceded “sounds reasonable,” but to topple Vladimir Putin and bring about “regime change” in Russia. After Zelensky’s speech to Congress, Carlson brought on former Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard, the “maverick” Democrat from Hawaii, to sing along with his assertions that Zelensky was actually an autocrat muzzling critical media outlets, jailing opposition politicians, and now trying to shut down an entire church because he finds it insufficiently loyal.

    (In reality, the situation involving the Moscow-affiliated branch of the Orthodox Church—one of the two Orthodox denominations in Ukraine—is massively complicated; in wartime, there are legitimate security concerns about its clergy’s reported activities in support of the invaders. However, a quote Carlson attributes to Zelensky, threatening “economic and restrictive sanctions [on] any Christian caught worshiping in unapproved ways,” does not seem to have any source other than Carlson himself.)

    Then there was this from Red State commentator Brandon Morse, asserting that Zelensky has done much more damage to the United States than the January 6th rioters:
    ………
    The question of why the Trumpian populist right is so consumed with hatred for Ukraine—a hatred that clearly goes beyond concerns about U.S. spending, a very small portion of our military budget, or about the nonexistent involvement of American troops—doesn’t have a simple answer. Partly, it’s simply partisanship: If the libs are for it, we’re against it, and the more offensively the better. (And if the pre-Trump Republican establishment is also for it, then we’re even more against it.) Partly, it’s the belief that Ukrainian democracy is a Biden/Obama/Hillary Clinton/”Deep State” project, all the more suspect because it’s related to Trump’s first impeachment. Partly, it’s the “national conservative” distaste for liberalism—not only in its American progressive iteration, but in the more fundamental sense that includes conservatives like Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher: the outlook based on individual freedom and personal autonomy, equality before the law, limited government, and an international order rooted in those values. Many NatCons are far more sympathetic to Russia’s crusade against secular liberalism than to Ukraine’s desire for integration into liberal, secular Europe.

    Whatever the reason, the anti-Ukraine animus on the right is quite real and widespread…….. But right now, it also smells of desperation. ……
    ………

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  103. Exactly, it’s bizarre to me that someone would even bring it up, as if disrespect was Zelensky’s purpose….or obliviousness. He is sending a message and only the obtuse would have a problem with it.

    For my part I’m not really interested in what he wore. It isn’t bizarre to bring it up though. There is obvious framing and propaganda going on so it’s worth understanding the overall context.

    But it is interesting that there’s a desire to both recognize that this is obvious and pretend it’s not happening at the same time. The required obliviousness is bizarre.

    frosty (6a59e5)

  104. Zelensky isn’t fighting for such esoteric philosophical concepts, he’s fighting for the survival of his country.

    It’s NOT an American problem. Ukraine and Russia- among other entities in the region- have been fighting w/each other for centuries— long before there was a USA to get suckered into this. It’s Europe’s problem to manage and pay for.

    DCSCA (4ec119)

  105. Why not help ourselves by helpng them? Here, we do well by doing right.

    Appalled (cd4bfe) — 12/22/2022 @ 9:12 am

    The question is; are we actually helping them and ourselves? Is this the most effective policy?

    While we want to weaken RU, and Putin specifically, it wouldn’t be a good idea to break them. A fractured RU would be its own sort of problem that isn’t easily solved.

    If the only response to that is some version of @102 then we’ve got at least two problems. The first being we don’t know if this is the best policy and the second being we’re actively preventing ourselves from even discussing it.

    All in the name of fighting for freedom and democracy.

    frosty (e58b79)

  106. Another aspect of this as that obvious RU propaganda brings up some concerns that China and other pro-democracy voices don’t want us worrying about.

    Luckily we won’t need howitzers in TW because the freedom and democracy loving CCP loves both freedom and democracy.

    frosty (6a59e5)

  107. In the end, Trumpsky and MAGA (formerly known as Comintern) are such a stench to most Americans, and to most of the Western world, that they are not likely to erode support for Ukraine. Bone spurs are not contagious. They will whine and snivel and lie, but they will only be talking to themselves.

    nk (bb1548)

  108. It’s in our interests for Russia to weaken — as that takes them out of the international mischief business.

    Goes both ways; and what of American mischief making- Iran-Contra, Vietnam, Korea, mideast…installing Iran’s Shah, etc…

    Hmmm. Guess you slept through the end of the Cold War in 1989 and missed Hillary’s reset button… etc. After the break-up., 21st century Russia is a regional power now. And commerce is the global leverage. So much so, the U.S. and partners even invited Russia to partner in building the ISS and paid the Russian government for rides on the Soyuz up to it for decades. Rolls-Royce, BK, MickeyDees in Red Square– Now 21st century Russia has become China’s b-tch– to the strategic delight of Xi– and has The Big Dick rolling over in his Yorba Linda grave. 21st Century Russian meddling in Europe is for wealthy, modern Europe to manage- they decided to party up w/then in commerce and energies issues. It is not the problem of the crumbling, debt burdened and inflation riddled USA– especially when the quality of life in Dusseldorf is better than in Detroit. And certainly not one to expect savvy decisions from the likes of Joey- who Bob Gates properly pegged as never correct on foreign policy issues.

    This never grown old; but Joe does:

    “Putin knows, if I am president of the United States, his days of tyranny and trying to intimidate the United States and those in Eastern Europe are over… Vladimir Putin doesn’t want me to be President. He doesn’t want me to be our nominee. If you’re wondering why — it’s because I’m the only person in this field who’s ever gone toe-to-toe with him.:- Squinty McStumblebum, 2019

    https://www.cnsnews.com/blog/craig-bannister/biden-2019-if-im-president-putins-days-tyranny-and-trying-intimidate-us-and

    DCSCA (4ec119)

  109. Americans and our government did similar things to German-American Lutherans and to Japanese-American Buddhists. We tend to look back on it in shame, but there were enough instances of primary loyalty to country of origin via the religious route that It was prudent to look into it. As usual, the execution of the investigations are done by humans who bring along their UHaul of bias.

    The Ukrainians know that the Russian Orthodox Church became a political arm of the Soviets and the priesthood is infested with political operatives.
    Carlson should remember that we have rules about what churches can preach from the pulpit. They can lose federal status for being political and just the feds choose to overlook infractions today, it doesn’t mean we would continue to overlook if we were invaded. My opinion on how the USA would handle a similar situation to the Russian Orthodox in Ukraine is that the feds would have to guard the churches 24/7 and the active members would be monitored

    steveg (24b5ad)

  110. “We have artillery. Is it enough? Not really.” – Z to Congress, 12/21/22

    Extortion is your business, eh Blofeld?

    “We’re all out of corn flakes. F.U.” – Oscar Madison [Walter Matthau] ‘The Odd Couple’ 1968

    DCSCA (4ec119)

  111. Zelensky Deserves More U.S. Support
    ………
    There’s no predicting what the willful Kremlin dictator might do, but one thing the war has taught is that Russia’s military is far less formidable than most believed. Despite fewer men and less firepower, Ukrainians have imposed ferocious casualties and fought Russia to a stalemate. Ukraine’s tenacity has also served America’s interests as well as its own.

    It’s worth thinking about what the world would look like today if Mr. Putin had crushed Kyiv within days as he and U.S. intelligence services expected. Russian forces would now control nearly all of Ukraine and man the border of Poland and other frontline NATO states. If an insurgency broke out in Ukraine, Mr. Putin would be blaming those countries for aiding the “terrorists,” whether they did or not, and threatening retaliation.

    Moldova would have been next to fall to Russia, and one or more of the Baltic states would be in his sights. NATO would be divided over how to respond for fear of Mr. Putin’s wrath, and forget about Finland and Sweden joining the alliance as they are currently doing. Germany would be especially conflicted, and all of Western Europe would be more vulnerable to Russia’s energy blackmail.

    The cost of shoring up NATO, with Russian tanks on its doorstep, would arguably have been even greater in the long run. …….

    Mr. Putin’s strategy is to punish the Ukrainian people and impose economic costs on the West with a goal of outlasting the democracies. But Mr. Zelensky and Ukrainians deserve continued U.S. support, and the fastest way to end the war is to provide Kyiv with the weapons to win as soon as possible………
    ………

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  112. #107 frosty —

    I think you ask reasonable questions, though I think we are presented by a binary choice between a more a more vigorous Russia pressuring more countries to knuckle under and yield, or one that simply loses its war of aggression. Russia is not our friend or the world’s friend. I think even DCSCA believes we would all be better off if Russia hadn’t launched its invasion.

    I agree with you there is a tendency to shut off questions like cost or oversight among Ukraine’s supporters. That’s unfortunate. For one thing, it leaves those arguments solely to those who do not have Ukraine’s best interests at heart.

    #110 I live in 2022, not 1964, 1990 or 2012. So do the rest of us. The past is an advisor, not a dictator.

    Appalled (cd4bfe)

  113. It only matters in the sense of who ends up winning the conflict, because they’re the ones who are going to determine the historical narrative

    The Russians have been trying that unsuccessfully for years. What makes one think this will change if they win? For a clue, go look up the “Captive Nations” meme after WW2.

    In our Civil War, the losers managed for quite some time to portray themselves as victims of carpetbagging Yankee scoundrels after the war, and Reconstruction was taught in many places as a sad chapter in US history. Jim Crow was widely accepted by white folk as “the way things are” for about 100 years after the war itself was fought.

    The losers can write history too.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  114. looks like opposing putin and being a righteous defender means funneling taxpayer money to FTX

    Those goalposts are showing redshift.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  115. The absurd complaints about Zelensky’s clothing are straight from MAGA lunatic Benny Johnson

    I’ve considered looking up those MAGA sites, so that I can preempt the discussion with the day’s MAGA talking points. It is SO fracking predictable.

    That the wardrobe thing comes from the same side whose J6 impeachment lawyer wore that ill-fitting $5 suit makes it all the more absurd. A lawyer that shows up to the Senate with a crappy suit is a piss-poor lawyer. But I guess that’s what you find at the bottom of the barrel.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  116. “the second being we’re actively preventing ourselves from even discussing it.”

    I’m sure foreign policy and military strategists across the spectrum have been discussing, gaming, and debating these questions repeatedly over this past year and onward as new facts/evidence emerge. Many articles have been written, panels assembled, briefs given, and recommendations made. A lot of intelligence has emerged that we can’t know. Many experts were wildly off from how the war would initially go and how long either side could last. This isn’t science. I think our leaders should be questioned hard and should communicate the best they can what’s at stake and how we know we’re succeeding. Biden isn’t especially good at this. I actively grimace each time he starts and anxiously wait for him to misstate something. Unlike some, I don’t think he is brain dead and unable to act as commander in chief.

    However, I think many critics don’t offer much with regards to objective analysis. This is just one more excuse to play politics and win the internet. That’s fine….it’s just not really furthering the discussion.

    AJ_Liberty (811aff)

  117. It’s nothing less than jarring and shameful to see how members of a political party

    Every single thing about the know-nothing faction that has seized control of the GOP is jarring and shameful. If they knew shame, they would realize this. I’m no longer #neverTrump. I’m graduated to #neverTrumpist. Perhaps we can give them Idaho and ship them all there.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  118. Zelensky Deserves More U.S. Support

    Opines the WSJ Editorial Board????

    … and the MIC smiled:

    Spending Increase Rounds Off Good Year for Defense Industry. Raytheon, Lockheed Martin Are Rising.

    U.S. lawmakers on Tuesday outlined a $1.65 trillion spending bill for fiscal 2023, with a boost to military spending. That’s another positive for the defense industry in a year which has been marked by pledges of military investment.

    https://www.barrons.com/articles/defense-stocks-raytheon-lockheed

    DCSCA (fed3a4)

  119. looks like opposing putin and being a righteous defender means funneling taxpayer money to FTX

    It’s a bogus theory, started by the yackoffs at Gateway Pundit.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  120. That the wardrobe thing comes from the same side whose J6 impeachment lawyer wore that ill-fitting $5 suit makes it all the more absurd.

    And did you see the shoes Amy Coney Barett wore at the announcement of her appointment in the Rose Garden? Girl, I swan ….

    nk (bb1548)

  121. @114. I live in 2022, not 1964, 1990 or 2012. So do the rest of us. The past is an advisor, not a dictator.

    ” What’s past is prologue ” – William Shakespeare, ‘The Tempest, Act 2, Scene I’ 1610.

    ‘In contemporary use, the phrase stands for the idea that history sets the context for the present. The quotation is engraved on the National Archives Building in Washington, DC, and is commonly used by the military when discussing the similarities between war throughout history. -wiki.def

    DCSCA (fed3a4)

  122. Zelensky is a man who has risen to the occasion. You don’t see this very much. Maybe a dozen leaders in a century. Not all succeed, but he’s rallied his entire country against overwhelming odds.

    Russia has 4 times the people, more weapons than there are Ukrainians, and a committed enemy planning a new genocide. The US told him at the outset that they expected Russia to take Kiev inside a week, and that they would provide him asylum. His response was “Nuts” and he went on to prove every wrong.

    The reason that the US is providing all this support is not so much that we dislike Putin, but that Zelensky has convinced us, along with his nation, that he can win.

    For once we do not choose the easy, cynical, path. At least most of us don’t.

    Thank God Trump lost.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  123. * and IS a committed enemy

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  124. We aren’t spreading freedom anywhere. we are spreading our empire and sending gobs of our tax money to Lockheed, Raytheon, etc.

    My God, the Trump “conservatives” have morphed into twentieth century Leftist radicals so fast that it’s hard to see when it happened. Next they’ll be demanding 90% tax rates and Guaranteed Annual Income.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  125. In our Civil War, the losers managed for quite some time to portray themselves as victims of carpetbagging Yankee scoundrels after the war, and Reconstruction was taught in many places as a sad chapter in US history.

    No kidding. As recently as 1994, Ted Turner’s famed miniseries, ‘Gettysburg’ was practically a love letter to Lee.

    DCSCA (fed3a4)

  126. Is it too much of an ask for some oversight? Why are efforts like this being treated as if its a reduction or total withdrawal?

    Have you ever experienced federal oversight of a contract?

    Chekist: “President Zelensky, we need to see what portion of this money is going to African-Americans in your country!”

    Zelensky: “That makes no sense! This is Ukraine, we don’t HAVE African Americans”

    Checkist: “Makes no matter. It’s right here on my form and if you cannot answer this (and document your answer), I’ll have to mark you as non-compliant!”

    Zelensky: “Then ZERO.”

    Chekist: “That’s unacceptable. Now I have to check the “racist” box. Good luck getting another dime, Mr Klansman!”

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  127. Zelensky Deserves

    No. The UKR people deserve. This cult of personality is disgusting.

    but one thing the war has taught is that Russia’s military is far less formidable than most believed

    So much less formidable that it is costing us $100B to learn this lesson.

    U.S. intelligence services expected

    Can we get a refund on those IC services? Is anyone asking why they gave us bad estimates? (yes, this is a rhetorical question)

    would have been next to fall … one or more of the Baltic states … NATO would be divided over how to respond for fear … forget about Finland and Sweden … Germany would be especially conflicted, and all of Western Europe would be more vulnerable to Russia’s energy blackmail.

    I really can’t believe that someone went with “far less formidable” and then so easily switched back on the great RU boogeyman. There is no more or less vulnerable to RU energy blackmail. The situation there is worse than it was when the war started especially after “someone” did “something” to the Nord Stream pipeline. And it’s a good thing we resolved any DE concerns so that they could turn off their nuclear reactors, or maybe not. The UKR refugees flooding PL are creating a huge burden and may destabilize that country. None of this stabilizes the EU generally.

    The cost of shoring up NATO, with Russian tanks on its doorstep

    This is exactly what NATO is already supposed to be doing. They exist for no other reason. They should already be shored up especially if the US IC was giving such high estimates of RU capabilities. But it’s hard to imagine how “shoring up NATO”, i.e. the marginal cost over our existing military spending in NATO countries, would “have been even greater in the long run”, i.e. greater than trying to push resources into a non-NATO country that is in the middle of a conflict.

    I’m no longer surprised that major media outlets produce this swill or that people consume it with pleasure.

    frosty (6a59e5)

  128. We’ve seen this before in our history… namely WW1 and WW2.

    How much oversight does anyone think there was in WW2? None. We were in an existential conflict. If Germany or Japan emerged victorious, they would hold large portions of the world to build their forces with. Eventually we would have to fight a much larger war, or capitulate. It was bad enough with the Soviet Union, and that was a close run thing.

    What they did was impose a 90% top income tax bracket to limit the theft, and got on with the real object — winning the flipping war.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  129. In the end, Trumpsky and MAGA (formerly known as Comintern) are such a stench to most Americans, and to most of the Western world, that they are not likely to erode support for Ukraine.

    They are more likely to erode support for themselves. It’s happened before.

    Washington’s Federalist Party destroyed itself by supporting the royalist English side in the Napoleonic Wars, and opposing the War of 1812. When the English burned the White House, they burned the Federalist Party, too.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  130. I find myself disappearing one particular commenter with more regularity today. Normally I read what he has to say, but today his stuff is particularly noxious.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  131. Zelensky is a man who has risen to the occasion.

    Pfft. Just like Captain Smith- who ignored the ice warnings and steamed full speed ahead into disaster:

    ‘Ukraine is not the Titanic’

    This was a slightly surreal encounter. One after another, journalists asked Ukraine’s president about the threat. But Volodymyr Zelensky batted away the questions, accusing the press itself of causing panic. On the other hand, he wasn’t contradicting the US intelligence: “I can see the 100,000 soldiers,” he eventually clarified. But he went from hinting that Russia was simply scaremongering, getting a “sado-masochistic” pleasure from seeing Kyiv sweat, to admitting that Ukraine was preparing for the possibility of all-out war.

    Still, Mr Zelensky reminded people that his country has lived with the threat of Russian aggression for years – it goes in cycles – and despite the unusual size of the current deployment, he seemed determined to play down the danger. When it came to the evacuation of some staff by some embassies, Ukraine’s leader was openly peeved: “Diplomats are like captains,” Mr Zelensky said. “They should be the last to leave a sinking ship. And Ukraine is not the Titanic.”= BBC.com

    “Iceberg! Right Ahead!” – Frederick Fleet, lookout, RMS Titanic, 4/14/1912

    DCSCA (fed3a4)

  132. @128,

    I didn’t realize that the people wondering what was happening to $100b in cash and weapons were all secretly woke anti-racist Coates disciples in disguise.

    Thanks for pointing that out.

    frosty (6a59e5)

  133. The reason that the US is providing all this support is not so much that we dislike Putin, but that Zelensky has convinced us, along with his nation, that he can win.

    “Never give a sucker an even break or smarten up a chump.” – Larson E. Whipsnade [W.C. Fields] ‘You Can’t Cheat An Honest Man 1939

    DCSCA (fed3a4)

  134. How much oversight does anyone think there was in WW2? None. We were in an existential conflict.

    Kevin M (1ea396) — 12/22/2022 @ 11:58 am

    RU, even if it completely annexed UKR and was able to use it’s resources without restriction, couldn’t create the sort of existential conflict we saw in WW2.

    We do have an existential problem though and it’s coming from this idea that we can spend and borrow without limit or consequences.

    frosty (6a59e5)

  135. The reason that the US is providing all this support is not so much that we dislike Putin, but that Zelensky has convinced us, along with his nation, that he can win.

    Kevin M (1ea396) — 12/22/2022 @ 11:39 am

    What do you think winning is in this situation? What outcome has Z convinced you of?

    frosty (6a59e5)

  136. A note on oversight when it comes to military to Ukraine.
    Unsurprisingly, several provisions address Russia’s ongoing invasion of Ukraine and seek greater accountability for the unprecedented amount of U.S. security assistance funneled to the Baltics. Section 1241 extends the Ukraine Security Assistance Initiative, while Section 1247 directs the (finally confirmed) DoD Inspector General to investigate the diversion of arms transferred to Ukraine.
    Sounds appropriate.
    Regarding Zelenskyy’s color scheme, he’s been wearing olive green since Putin invaded last February, and obviously the choice is political and symbolic, conveying the message that he’s a war president. I don’t see any fault in that, and his fashion choices make much more sense than a newly elected PA Senator’s hoodies, and than Fidel’s revolutionary garb.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  137. What do you think winning is in this situation? What outcome has Z convinced you of?

    When Grimes dumps Chelsea Manning and goes back to Musk?

    The question or, more accurately, the sea lioning, is incompetent, irrelevant, and immaterial.

    What was winning for the United States in 1812?

    nk (168ac9)

  138. 138,

    The DOD recently failed its 5th audit. That doesn’t sound so bad unless you know they’ve only tried it 5 times.

    I wish the DoD IG the best of luck but I don’t have much confidence. I’m hoping we don’t find out how good a job they did after some separatists somewhere shoots down a commercial jet.

    frosty (f03194)

  139. I didn’t realize that the people wondering what was happening to $100b in cash and weapons were all secretly woke anti-racist Coates disciples in disguise.

    This is an existential war. If Ukraine loses, Putin will exterminate them, just like Stalin tried to do with starvation in the 1930s. The cost doesn’t really matter; to use this is strategic. Putin sowed the seeds of his own destruction and we are opportunistically assisting, while helping a people defend themselves.

    But I’ll tell you, given the number of folks who are dying at the front, anyone caught stealing this money will be taken out and shot. Not that there are many opportunities, we aren’t sending them cargo containers full of money, we are sending them weapons and credit to buy more weapons. It can’t be spent on booze and hos.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  140. *to US this is strategic.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  141. I’m actually more worried about the federal money sent to New Mexico during the pandemic. Never mind the tens of billions sent to California.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  142. @70 Jesus was a pacifist is he your enemy?

    asset (b71c14)

  143. What do you think winning is in this situation? What outcome has Z convinced you of?

    It’s more than what Zelensky wants for the Ukraine. It’s existential for them, but it’s a wider strategic effort for us.

    What I hope for?

    Minimum: Removing Russian forces from all of Ukraine, including Crimea, and breaking Putin so that they either kill him or send him to a Gulag.

    Wider effects in the would be nice category: NATO expands to include Ukraine and the new independent government in Belarus. Iran loses a backer. Cuba’s loses a backer and its government falls. Dictators the world over are weakened.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  144. @70 Jesus was a pacifist is he your enemy?

    Jesus’s followers pretty much weren’t. At least those that didn’t get eaten by lions.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  145. It’s Costing Peanuts for the US to Defeat Russia
    ……..
    …….(W)hen viewed from a bang-per-buck perspective, US and Western support for Ukraine is an incredibly cost-effective investment. 

    Altogether, the Biden administration received Congressional approval for $40bn in aid for Ukraine for 2022 and has requested an additional $37.7bn for 2022. More than half of this aid has been earmarked for defense. 

    These sums pale into insignificance when set against a total US defense budget of $715bn for 2022. The assistance represents 5.6% of total US defense spending. …….

    …….US spending of 5.6% of its defense budget to destroy nearly half of Russia’s conventional military capability seems like an absolutely incredible investment. If we divide out the US defense budget to the threats it faces, Russia would perhaps be of the order of $100bn-150bn in spend-to-threat. So spending just $40bn a year, erodes a threat value of $100-150bn, a two-to-three time return.  Actually the return is likely to be multiples of this given that defense spending, and threat are annual recurring events.
    ……..
    Meanwhile, replacing destroyed kit, and keeping up with the new arms race that it has now triggered with the West will surely end up bankrupting the Russian economy; especially an economy subject to aggressive Western sanctions. …….

    ………Ukraine is using only upgraded second generation US technology but is consistently beating whatever Russia’s military can deploy………
    ……..
    ……..Countries eager to secure defense capability to meet their own threats – think of Turkey, India, Pakistan, Egypt, and Saudi Arabia — might have opted for cheaper, “value” Russian defense offerings. However, with the quality/capability of this equipment now being questioned because of poor battlefield performance, they will likely be vying to acquire a better US kit. …….
    ………..

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  146. @130

    We’ve seen this before in our history… namely WW1 and WW2.

    How much oversight does anyone think there was in WW2? None. We were in an existential conflict. If Germany or Japan emerged victorious, they would hold large portions of the world to build their forces with. Eventually we would have to fight a much larger war, or capitulate. It was bad enough with the Soviet Union, and that was a close run thing.

    You need to read more history books I’m sorry to say.

    All you need to do, is count the numbers of contractors, federal bureaucrats and generals who were FIRED during that time for incompetence and/or poor plannings.

    The mission didn’t change. Sometimes, we had to find better people to support the mission.

    We can’t even do any sort of that from an accounting perspective with Ukraine right now.

    whembly (d116f3)

  147. OT: Law of unintended consequences: FDA wants to ban phenylephrine-based products as phenylephrine doesn’t really work.

    Up until Congress decided to restrict the used of pseudoephedrine (which does work) in order to prevent its use in meth labs, pseudoephedrine was the go-to drug for decongestants. Now they want to ban to only approved alternative, because it doesn’t work.

    The fact that Congress was repeatedly told this back then seems to have been lost in the shuffle.

    Dianne Feinstein hardest hit.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  148. federal bureaucrats and generals who were FIRED during that time for incompetence

    Not because they were stealing the money though, and adding bean-counters and lawyers to the mix would not have helped.

    It was because their products or their tactics didn’t work. I suspect that if weapons the Ukrainians get don’t work, they will stop buying them, and if their officers don’t perform they will get other officers.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  149. Russia has its own way of getting rid of incompetent officers. Stalin used to shoot them. Putin lets the Ukrainians do that.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  150. 147,

    The argument that it is cheap at 5% of the defense budget only highlights the fact that our defense budget is too large.

    Russia and China are our only large strategic opponents. Is the other 95% dedicated to China?

    This also ignore the fact that we’re giving UKR more than the entire RU defense budget and RU hasn’t been defeated.

    It also ignores the fact that it should be less if it were being done by a NATO country or the US directly. Part of the cost involved with UKR we didn’t really get started until after they were invaded. Again, highlighting the fact that we’re pushing to much money into the military budget.

    frosty (bb643e)

  151. It’s Costing Peanuts for the US to Defeat Russia

    We spent what in Iraq? The CBO estimates the cost at $2.4 trillion.

    There are so many other things we could have done with that money. Including winning the Ukraine war 20-30 times over.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  152. This also ignore the fact that we’re giving UKR more than the entire RU defense budget and RU hasn’t been defeated

    Russian still has men and guns to waste. They’re now emptying the prisons. After that comes the older men and boys. It will take time.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  153. Part of the cost involved with UKR we didn’t really get started until after they were invaded.

    Our CIA told us that Ukraine would fall in a week, and we offered the government an exile here. Not only did they not run, the stood, fought, and stopped the vaunted Russian military, which was far far from what it pretended to be.

    I think that people misunderstand who we are giving this money to. It’s not “Ukraine” — we were quite prepared for Putin to conquer it without much of a fight, and I’m sure that Biden didn’t want to lose all those helicopters again.

    No, we are giving it to the Zelensky government because when men stand and fight for their freedom, that’s what other free people do.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  154. we’re pushing to much money into the military budget.

    No, we are not. The worldwide threats are continually evolving. See here, here, and here, not to mention the technological advances that are required to meet the hypersonic missile threat, Iranian ballistic missiles, North Korean ballistic and ICBM threats, and China’s new ballistic missile submarines.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  155. @146 you know that does not answer the question about jesus being a pacifist. Is jesus your enemy? Most of his followers tried to be lambs among wolves.

    asset (b71c14)

  156. @147 totally agree destroying russian military on a shoe string. Look at all the trillions we have spent on defense spending boondoggles over the last 70+years

    asset (b71c14)

  157. We’ve been here before, and those times our response was weak and fearful.

    The Soviet refusal to withdraw from Eastern Europe after the war. We said many things, but did nothing.

    The Hungarian revolution and attempt to throw off the Soviet yoke, led to more words on our part as Soviet tanks crushed the rebellion and the Hungarian leadership was liquidated.

    The Czech Spring. More tanks, more talk.

    Poland and Solidarity. This time it was Polish tanks, but the result was the same. Even Reagan just talked.

    It wasn’t until Gorbachev weakened their system and Reagan took advantage in Berlin that Eastern Europe started to work free. And even then there were those who called it reckless and spoke of WWIII.

    The battle now in Ukraine is a Russia-NATO war by proxy. NATO is on the table as much as Ukraine is. I note that MAGA wants NATO to fail, too.

    Not a huge surprise. Beer-swilling surrender monkeys.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  158. Most of his followers tried to be lambs among wolves.

    And He warned his followers about wolves in sheep’s clothing. (Matthew 7:15) Which is what these fake “pacifist” Putin-puppets are.

    nk (168ac9)

  159. Ravening wolves.

    nk (168ac9)

  160. @146 you know that does not answer the question about jesus being a pacifist

    Jesus may have been a pacifist, but he also died nailed to a cross. His early followers were also crucified or fed to the lions in the arena. Religions whose followers all get killed don’t last very long, and so practicality overcame theory.

    As for Code Pink, they should all spend more time in the inner city, telling gangs to give up their guns and drugs. But they won’t because their pacifist stand RELIES on being protected by people who don’t turn the other cheek.

    In short, they are freeloaders. It’s like having a house guest who nags you about the food they are getting not being glutin-free.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  161. Question (to whomever): Is America the indispensable country? If we totally retreated for the world, disavowing any interest outside the mile-high walls securing our borders, would the world improve? Stay the same? Fall under someone’s boot?

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  162. BTW, asset, I am no more of a Christian than you are, so that line of attack doesn’t much work.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  163. This also ignore the fact that we’re giving UKR more than the entire RU defense budget and RU hasn’t been defeated

    If the US gave Ukraine its first tier weaponry (and American troops to operate it), then I have no doubt that Russia would have been defeated in short order. Ukraine has accomplished as much as it has without either the best weapons in the Western arsenal or without air support comparable to what Russia has deployed against them. The West has hamstrung Ukraine by not deploying M1A2 Abrams tanks, Apache helicopters or Viper gunships, etc. or other sophisticated weapons that can threaten Russia proper.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  164. we’re pushing to much money into the military budget. No, we are not.

    Bull.

    U.S. Military Spending vs Other Top Countries

    The U.S. is well known for its immense military and defense spending. In 2020, the nation ranked #1 in the world in terms of military spending at $778 billion outpacing the next nine highest spenders, which came out to $703.6 billion combined.

    One factor is the military–industrial complex (MIC) which feeds into the U.S.’ defense dominance, with a longstanding tradition of the defense and weapons industries working closely with the U.S. government and armed forces.

    Russia is only the fourth highest spender, but they have the largest military size of any of the top 10, at around 5.9 million personnel. All of these countries [Russia, SK, China, India, France, Japan, Saudis, UK & Germany] have militaries that number in the hundreds of thousands to millions, and many are a part of treaties and alliances that require them to upkeep their armies and weaponry — but none spend half as much as the U.S.

    https://www.visualcapitalist.com/u-s-military-spending-vs-other-top-countries/

    Ike was right: “In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military–industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists, and will persist.” – President Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1/17/61. But what did he know aboput it- he was only appointed Supreme Allied Commander in Europe by FDR in 1943 =sarc=.

    The toys cost too much. When $15 billion carriers can be sunk w/$2 mil., Exocet missiles, the procurement policy is wholly out of whack. In WW2 procurement, the policy was to cost out materials and munitions that were acceptable to conditions and affordable in design to be lost in combat. Not so today.

    These same imbeciles sell off multi-billion dollar aircraft carriers for literally a penny a piece as scrap rather than refurb/refit for a couple of hundred million- get another 20 years out of them and station them on both coasts to operate as Disaster/Emergency Relief vessels for quakes, hurricane relief as shelter, air support and triage.

    The worldwide threats are continually evolving…

    You mean created to perpetuate this cash cow absurdity. War ends in Afghanistgan? Let’s keep the busk flowing buttiing into Ukraine. And Europe loves it; it makes them able to afford modern infrastructures, national healthcare systems and a quality of life better in Berlin than in Brooklyn while sucker USA pays the bill. It’s been going on for decades now– and America’s debt show it. The United States is not the world’s policeman– it cannot afforsd it; the Defense Department [formally called the War Department] is NOT Earth’s Scotland Yard– nor Interpol.

    DCSCA (ce69df)

  165. We once feared the Soviet military, but it has fallen on very hard times. President Putin, who has isolated during the pandemic more completely than a 80yo man with emphysema, clearly does not understand how dreadfully the Russian military has been hollowed out by theft, fraud and general all-around not-giving-a-sh1t.

    The NY Times did a very long piece a few days back about what has happened to Marshal Zhukov’s formidable force. If they didn’t have nukes, not only would we beat them, but they be hard pressed to beat Kazakhstan.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  166. The Soviet refusal to withdraw from Eastern Europe after the war. We said many things, but did nothing.

    Said nothing– to an American ally invaded yet defeated the Nazis? Lest you forget:

    The USSR lost 26 million people in WW2.

    The USA lost 420,000 in WW2.

    DCSCA (ce69df)

  167. @158. Look at all the trillions we have spent on defense spending boondoggles over the last 70+years.

    Yep. Ike was right. So the intel fed by, from and to the MIC has been deliberately misleading– or it never occurred to them that the Rooskies would spend less to procure armaments deliberately designed to be affordably lost to their economy in combat.

    DCSCA (ce69df)

  168. Minimum: Removing Russian forces from all of Ukraine, including Crimea,

    This seems like a possible outcome. This doesn’t sound consistent with what Z wants so I don’t see how that’s one of the reasons he’s convinced you to give him money.

    and breaking Putin so that they either kill him or send him to a Gulag.

    This seems like wishful thinking. A more likely outcome than regime change in RU is UKR falls. Another more likely outcome is that RU has themselves a civil war instead.

    Wider effects in the would be nice category: NATO expands to include Ukraine and the new independent government in Belarus. Iran loses a backer. Cuba’s loses a backer and its government falls. Dictators the world over are weakened.

    Kevin M (1ea396) — 12/22/2022 @ 1:18 pm

    Has this regime change plan ever worked out like that? After Libya were dictators the world over weakened? After Iraq did we get a stronger US empire? Or Syria?

    frosty (6a59e5)

  169. Why is Ukraine funding buried in the bill that averts a shutdown of our own government?

    Why was previous Ukraine funding linked to hurricane disaster relief for Florida?

    Why is Zelensky speaking to Congress tonight?

    Because Americans are growing very weary of funding this war.

    _

    US funding for Ukraine now includes a 3rd category. In addition to military and humanitarian assistance,

    American taxpayers are now on the hook for “government assistance” to Ukraine.

    That’s right, we’re paying the salaries and expenses of Ukrainian politicians & bureaucrats.“

    _

    “$100 billion to Ukraine. Let’s put that in perspective.

    That’s more than $200 million this year from each Congressional district.

    What could your congressman have done for your district with $200 million?

    How long will the kids in your district be paying interest on this debt?”<

    https://twitter.com/repthomasmassie/status/1605566647363809280?s=46&t=k4kjOc3Vr1r8VGhlrKeUBQ

    What’s the over/under on how much gets laundered and funneled back to the DNC?

    Obudman (6c7d77)

  170. WSJ has an article out today with this as the tease:
    “Europe is struggling to produce enough ammunition for Ukraine and for itself, jeopardizing ⁦
    defense capacity and its support for Kyiv, officials and industry leaders say.”

    Europe looks like it has been freeloading on American defense capabilities. The current Russian campaign shows:

    1. Russia is not the capable #2 best military on planet earth, the Europeans were supposed to be prepared for.
    2. European NATO wasn’t ready with enough ammunition to fend off this fraction of Russia’s military
    3. European NATO does not have the capability to sufficiently ramp up manufacturing in 9 months even without any Russian missiles, bombs hitting their factories and distribution infrastructure

    steveg (ffa7d0)

  171. What could your congressman have done for your district with $200 million?

    Mine? Bought more electric buses with brakes that don’t work.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  172. We once feared the Soviet military, but it has fallen on very hard times. President Putin, who has isolated during the pandemic more completely than a 80yo man with emphysema, clearly does not understand how dreadfully the Russian military has been hollowed out by theft, fraud and general all-around not-giving-a-sh1t.

    The NY Times did a very long piece a few days back about what has happened to Marshal Zhukov’s formidable force. If they didn’t have nukes, not only would we beat them, but they be hard pressed to beat Kazakhstan.

    Kevin M (1ea396) — 12/22/2022 @ 2:35 pm

    This taken with @159 seems to be part of pattern. Regardless of what the NYT tells you the once feared Soviet military hasn’t so much fallen on hard times as it has ceased to exist. The cold war stopped being a thing in 1991. There’s no reason to keep fighting it.

    I’ve never thought the post cold-war RU military was much to worry about but if it has been hollowed out as you say why has it cost $100b to keep them out of UKR and why is Z saying that it’s still not enough? You say they would have trouble beating KZ but UKR would have been overrun absent a huge influx of resources from the US.

    How can you maintain that the RU military is an existential threat and also a hollowed out shell?

    frosty (6a59e5)

  173. What do you think winning is in this situation? What outcome has Z convinced you of?

    As long as there are Russian troops on Ukrainian soil, whatever terms are minimally acceptable to the Ukrainians are OK with me.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  174. @130. How much oversight does anyone think there was in WW2? None.

    None? You must get tired of being wrong, Kevin. Except there was oversight. If he wasn’t dead you could ask Harry Truman about it– and he’d give you a four-lettered earful on it:

    Truman Committee

    The Truman Committee, formally known as the Senate Special Committee to Investigate the National Defense Program, was a United States Congressional investigative body, headed by Senator Harry S. Truman. The bipartisan special committee was formed in March 1941 to find and correct problems in US war production with waste, inefficiency, and war profiteering. The Truman Committee proved to be one of the most successful investigative efforts ever mounted by the U.S. government: an initial budget of $15,000 was expanded over three years to $360,000 to save an estimated $10–15 billion in military spending and thousands of lives of U.S. servicemen . For comparison, the entire cost of the simultaneous Manhattan Project, which created the first atomic bombs, was $2 billion. Chairing the committee helped Truman make a name for himself beyond his political machine origins and was a major factor in the decision to nominate him as vice president, which would propel him to the presidency after the death of Franklin D. Roosevelt.

    Truman stepped down from leadership of the committee in August 1944 to concentrate on running for vice president in that year’s presidential election. From 1941 until its official end, in 1948, the committee held 432 public hearings, listened to 1,798 witnesses and published almost 2,000 pages of reports. Every committee report was unanimous, with bipartisan support.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truman_Committee

    DCSCA (ce69df)

  175. Europe looks like it has been freeloading on American defense capabilities. The current Russian campaign shows:

    1. Russia is not the capable #2 best military on planet earth, the Europeans were supposed to be prepared for.

    This depends a lot on who we think is the new #2.

    2. European NATO wasn’t ready with enough ammunition to fend off this fraction of Russia’s military
    3. European NATO does not have the capability to sufficiently ramp up manufacturing in 9 months even without any Russian missiles, bombs hitting their factories and distribution infrastructure

    It doesn’t matter that RU is a weak old bear that’s half blind if you’ve failed to prepare for make even basic preparations against weak old half blind bears.

    BTW, EU ammunition isn’t the EU’s only, or possibly biggest, problem.

    steveg (ffa7d0) — 12/22/2022 @ 3:05 pm

    But Trump criticized NATO for exactly this reason so something something Trump something.

    frosty (6a59e5)

  176. ‘The reputation of the Truman Committee grew so strong that fear of an investigation was sometimes enough of a deterrent to stop underhanded dealings. An unknown number of people performed more honestly in war production because of the threat of a Truman visit.

    In March 1943, at the second birthday of the Truman Committee, TIME magazine put “Investigator Truman” on the cover, showing Truman’s craggy face squinting in the mid-day sun, in the background a spotlight shining on government and industry. The issue carried an associated article, titled “Billion-Dollar Watchdog,” describing the Committee “as one of the most useful Government agencies of World War II” and “the closest thing yet to a domestic high command.” The article raised Truman’s importance in the eye of the man on the street, cementing his well-earned position as one of America’s most responsible leaders.’

    He’d scare the crap out of Zelinsky, order him to lose the Castro costume and then sell him a Missouri suit.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truman_Committee

    ‘America needs you, Harry Truman…’

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mCQHqig-Uk

    DCSCA (ce69df)

  177. Jesus was a pacifist who just sat around in heaven doing nothing while the Father he is inextricably combined with sent an angel to massacre 185K Assyrians overnight. Then when David disobeyed God by counting the soldiers of Judah rather than simply proceeding on faith, David was given a choice: Three years of famine. Three months of fleeing before the enemy, or three day of plague. David chose plague and the angel sent by God killed 70,000 people (not David, hmmmm, seems unfair) before God decided that was enough. I’m hazy on how the whole “3 in 1” thing works, but given the powers Jesus had, I think there is evidence here of at least implied consent, sins of omission for the fathers warlike behaviors

    steveg (ffa7d0)

  178. Europe looks like it has been freeloading on American defense capabilities.

    This is news to a newspaper? ROFLMAOPIP

    DCSCA (ce69df)

  179. Democrats got Russia wrong over multiple election cycles
    Palin was right in 2008
    Romney was right in 2012
    Obama was wrong
    Trump was wrong, right, wrong again repeat… it all starts to seem accidental
    Biden is sorta right in the same way a blind doesn’t get run over by a car. Or just see Trump above

    steveg (ffa7d0)

  180. The obsession over Russia is 20th century muscle memory.

    DCSCA (ce69df)

  181. frosty (6a59e5) — 12/22/2022 @ 3:14 pm

    I’ve never thought the post cold-war RU military was much to worry about

    They do have nuclear weapons, and Putin stopped letting the United States purchase excess enriched uranium from dismantled nuclear weapons
    (the official reason for worry is that it might sold to third states or terrorists)

    https://www.cnbc.com/2009/11/10/power-for-us-from-russias-old-nuclear-weapons.html

    What’s powering your home appliances?

    For about 10 percent of electricity in the United States, it’s fuel from dismantled nuclear bombs, including Russian ones.

    …Utilities have been loath to publicize the Russian bomb supply line for fear of spooking consumers: the fuel from missiles that may have once been aimed at your home may now be lighting it.

    But at times, recycled Soviet bomb cores have made up the majority of the American market for low-enriched uranium fuel. Today, former bomb material from Russia accounts for 45 percent of the fuel in American nuclear reactors, while another 5 percent comes from American bombs, according to the Nuclear Energy Institute, an industry trade association in Washington.

    https://www.world-nuclear-news.org/ENF-Megatons-to-Megawatts-program-concludes-1112134.html

    Megatons to Megawatts program concludes
    11 December 2013

    Share

    The arrival of the final shipment of low-enriched uranium (LEU) from Russia to the USA marks the successful completion of the Megatons to Megawatts program to downblend weapons-grade uranium.

    In 1993, the US and Russian governments signed an agreement for the purchase over a 20-year period of 500 tonnes of Russian ‘surplus’ high-enriched uranium (HEU) from nuclear disarmament and military stockpiles. These were to be bought by the USA for use as fuel in civil nuclear reactors. Under the deal, the USA transferred to Russia a similar quantity of natural uranium to that used to downblend the HEU.

    …While the Megatons to Megawatts program has now been completed, USEC will continue to purchase LEU from Tenex under a multi-year contract signed between the two companies in March 2011. However, unlike the Megatons to Megawatts program, the LEU supplied will come from Russia’s commercial enrichment activities rather than the downblending of Russian weapons material.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  182. To Kevin:

    but if it has been hollowed out as you say why has it cost $100b to keep them out of UKR

    Because everything in the United States arsenal is high high quality and overpriced.

    and why is Z saying that it’s still not enough?

    Because it isn’t. Some 10% to 40% of missiles are getting through and wreaking havoc. And they are not making progress o offense. U.S. analysts think they can’t.

    You say they would have trouble beating KZ but UKR would have been overrun absent a huge influx of resources from the US.

    Probably true. UKR has a smaller army and less resources than ZRussia.

    How can you maintain that the RU military is an existential threat and also a hollowed out shell?

    Hollowed out compared to what it was before or compared to what it is on paper.

    Actually it’s not much of an existential threat, except for its nuclear weapons, half of which maybe may still work.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  183. Kevin M (1ea396) — 12/21/2022 @ 12:42 pm

    Ukraine needs to be able to hit utilities in Belarus and Russia proper.

    No, they just need to knock out the launchers and bases.

    Biden doesn’t want to start a war with Iran either.

    The nearest “off-ramp” at hand is “Putin loses power.”

    That’s the best one. But if Putin believed that that was the U.S. goal, he’d be more likely to use nuclear weapons.

    It’s like a bear in a zoo with a hand grenade.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  184. https://www.wionews.com/world/it-is-dead-but-we-are-not-going-to-announce-it-says-biden-about-iran-nuclear-deal-watch-545071

    https://nypost.com/2022/12/20/biden-iran-nuclear-deal-is-dead-but-we-are-not-going-to-announce-it-long-story

    Biden made the off-the-cuff remark Nov. 4 to Iranian American protesters who trailed him to an event in California.

    “President Biden, could you please announce that JCPOA is dead? Can you just announce that?” a woman asks, using the formal acronym for the 2015 agreement that softened US policy toward Iran in exchange for promises that Tehran wouldn’t seek a nuclear bomb.

    “No,” Biden replied.

    “No? Why not?” the woman pressed the president.

    “No. A lot of reasons. It is dead, but we are not going to announce it — long story. We’re going to make sure —,” Biden began — possibly referring to the looming midterm elections — before being cut off by his questioner.

    We just don’t want any deals with the mullahs. No deals. They don’t represent us. They are not our government,” the woman said.

    The commander-in-chief replied, as he backed away, “They’ll have a nuclear weapon they’ll represent.”

    The White House did not respond to a request for comment or dispute the authenticity of the video, which was posted by Damon Maghsoudi, whose unverified Twitter profile says he’s a Google software engineer living in Southern California.

    But State Department spokesman Ned Price effectively confirmed Biden’s sentiment Tuesday, while pinning the blame on Iran for the failure of talks in Vienna that began last year to discuss renewing the deal.

    “The Iranians killed the opportunity for a swift return to mutual compliance with the JCPOA,” Price told reporters.

    “They killed that opportunity for a swift return to compliance most recently in September when again we were on the precipice, we thought, of a mutual return to compliance with the JCPOA.”

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  185. https://qz.com/read-transcript-ukraine-president-volodymyr-zelenskyy-s-1849922155

    https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/21/us/politics/zelensky-speech-transcript.html

    And it gives me good reason to share with you our first, first joint victory: We defeated Russia in the battle for minds of the world.

    Except maybe for a few Republicans?

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  186. Zelensky on previous battles:

    The Russian tactic is primitive. They burn down and destroy everything they see. They sent thugs to the frontlines. They sent convicts to the war. They threw everything against us—similar to the other tyranny, which in the Battle of the Bulge, threw everything it had against the free world.

    “the other tyranny”

    Zelensky remembers Godwin’s Law.

    But then he slips:

    Just like the brave American soldiers, which held their lines and fought back Hitler’s forces during the Christmas of 1944, brave Ukrainian soldiers are doing the same to Putin’s forces this Christmas. Ukraine holds its lines and will never surrender!

    So, here is the frontline–the tyranny, which has no lack of cruelty–against the lives of free people. And your support is crucial, not just to stand in such fights, but to get to the turning point. To win on the battlefield.

    We have artillery. Yes. Thank you. Is it enough? Honestly, not really. To ensure Bakhmut is not just a stronghold that holds back the Russian army–but for the Russian army to completely pull out–more cannons and shells are needed.

    If so, just like the battle of Saratoga, the fight for Bakhmut will change the trajectory of our war for independence and freedom. If your «Patriots» stop the Russian terror against our cities, it will let Ukrainian patriots work to the full to defend our freedom.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  187. He is mixing up the United States and Ukraine – and still gets the date wrong!

    Ladies and gentlemen, Americans, in two days, we will celebrate Christmas. Maybe, candlelit. Not because it is more romantic, but because there will be no electricity.

    This is a mistake you would think only CHAT GPT could make.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  188. The oversight was not an excuse not to vote to fund the war.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  189. European NATO wasn’t ready with enough ammunition to fend off this fraction of Russia’s military

    Russia’s total active duty military numbers a little over 1 million people. The ground force part of that numbers 360,000 or did earlier this year. They have lost 100,000 ground troops and over 100 generals in the war so far.

    They are now using press gangs to round up young men, who are sent the front with no training, and giving prospective pardons to criminals who agree to “volunteer.” In short, they are desperate for men. Where is the rest of the army? Well they have an incredibly large border to protect, and in the East they have China, with an army twice as large and far less to protect.

    They are already using all the army they have available and they’ve let most of it get killed.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  190. This doesn’t sound consistent with what Z wants…

    I’ve heard Zelenskyy say out loud that Ukraine seeks to reclaim all that was taken by Putin, including the Crimean region of Ukraine. It’s a worthwhile objective. Whether it happens, we’ll see, but I hope it does.
    To date, we’ve furnished around $22 billion of our stockpiles, i.e., reserves, and it’s a bargain considering how much Putin’s military has been shredded.

    Patterico has already mentioned this, but Yale professor Timothy Snyder teaches pretty much the only college course on Ukrainian history and so far, I’m on Class 15 out of 23 lectures, and he’s just getting to the Holodomor.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  191. How can you maintain that the RU military is an existential threat and also a hollowed out shell?

    I never said they were an existential threat to US, but to much smaller Ukraine they are still one, especially as their goal is to “wipe Ukraine off the map.” They only have to win once.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  192. That’s the best one. But if Putin believed that that was the U.S. goal, he’d be more likely to use nuclear weapons.

    I have to think that there are Russians who have plans for when he tries that. It’s one thing to wait and give him more rope, but use of nuclear weapons makes everything immediate.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  193. This whole discussion makes me very sad. That there are so many people who would rather have their beer a bit cheaper and let brave people fall under the heel of tyrants disgusts me more than I can say.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  194. In our Civil War, the losers managed for quite some time to portray themselves as victims of carpetbagging Yankee scoundrels after the war, and Reconstruction was taught in many places as a sad chapter in US history. Jim Crow was widely accepted by white folk as “the way things are” for about 100 years after the war itself was fought.

    The losers can write history too.

    Kevin M (1ea396) — 12/22/2022 @ 11:16 am

    That was primarily because the Civil War didn’t end on a de facto basis until the Democrats forced the end of Reconstruction to allow for Hayes to become President over Tilden. There were violent insurrections throughout the South, not just from the KKK but from other organized and unorganized groups, and while Grant did his best to suppress them, the Republicans ultimately determined that the cost of trying to force integration wasn’t worth it anymore politically, and wouldn’t allow the nation to actually move forward as a united entity until that ended.

    The Union won the war, but the Confederacy won Reconstruction, and the emergence of the Dunning School codified that view as the national narrative for at least three generations.

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d)

  195. Sammy,

    They do have nuclear weapons

    So does Pakistan and NK. I don’t consider them an existential threat to freedom and democracy either just because they have nukes.

    RU is even less of a threat for nukes as long as they have a semi-stable government which a lot of people seem eager to change.

    frosty (884ffb)

  196. One thing that is absolutely laughable. That if we were not sending these weapons to Ukraine, they would be magically converted to money to use to secure the southern border.

    In what universe do you see the Biden Administration securing the southern border. even it it was running a surplus? They’d burn it first.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  197. The Union won the war, but the Confederacy won Reconstruction, and the emergence of the Dunning School codified that view as the national narrative for at least three generations.

    I have no argument with this, except that Andrew Johnson’s resistance to Reconstruction at the start harmed the effort. It’s why he was impeached, even though trying to fire Secretary Stanton was the official reason. And, as it turned out, the GOP Senators were not all on board with Reconstruction.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  198. That there are so many people who would rather have their beer a bit cheaper and let brave people fall under the heel of tyrants disgusts me more than I can say.

    Camo up!

    “My dear Mademoiselle, perhaps you have already observed that in Casablanca, human life is cheap. Good night, Mademoiselle.” – Major Heinrich Strasser [Conrad Veidt] ‘Casablanca’ 1942

    DCSCA (6fe7dd)

  199. The Dunning School, btw, was more than just a narrative. It was one of the intellectual foundations of Jim Crow. Another was the 1875 (and onward) decisions of the Supreme Court, such as Cruikshank, depriving blacks of even the most basic civil right, to life.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  200. That there are so many people who would rather have their beer a bit cheaper

    OT: I don’t know if beer is cheaper, but gasoline is down to $3.08 at the vicinity of US Route 66 & IL-43. Lower than a year ago, Mr. Google says.

    Should we thank India and China for buying Russia’s cut-rate stuff, and easing the demand on OPEC’s stuff for the rest of us? Or MBS who kept the price high until he saw that his friends had lost the mid-term?

    nk (48d53d)

  201. This whole discussion makes me very sad. That there are so many people who would rather have their beer a bit cheaper and let brave people fall under the heel of tyrants disgusts me more than I can say.

    Kevin M (1ea396) — 12/22/2022 @ 5:10 pm

    It is sad indeed. I think you’ve found the heart of the problem though. If Biden could lower the price of beer by releasing some from the strategic beer reserve I think the concerns about spending would go away.

    frosty (884ffb)

  202. In what universe do you see the Biden Administration securing the southern border. even it it was running a surplus? They’d burn it first.

    Kevin M (1ea396) — 12/22/2022 @ 5:14 pm

    So the Biden admin supports an invasion on our southern border? Why are they deserving of any support. They refuse to do their primary job which is to protect the nation from invasion.

    NJRob (ba8f28)

  203. This whole discussion makes me very sad. That there are so many people who would rather have their beer a bit cheaper and let brave people fall under the heel of tyrants disgusts me more than I can say.

    Kevin M (1ea396) — 12/22/2022 @ 5:10 pm

    Shipping jobs overseas ring a bell? Slavery in China ring a bell?

    NJRob (ba8f28)

  204. News Item:

    Representative Michael McCaul (R-TX) said Thursday on CNN’s “At This Hour” that the United States giving aid to help Ukraine fight against Russia’s invasion has “destroyed the Russian military without one American soldier being killed.”

    On Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky’s speech to a joint meeting of Congress, McCaul said, “What I appreciated about his speech, a couple of things. One were the parallels that he made to World War II. That would be my father’s war. When we go to Poland, they talk about 1939 and Hitler, and had we stopped him at that point in time, we would have saved so much blood, and treasure from occurring, and what we’re seeing right now is a struggle for the global balance of power in the world, and that is Russia, China, Iran and North Korea. Chairman Xi in China is looking at Taiwan and then Putin in Ukraine. You cannot bifurcate these world powers, and they’re all against freedom and democracy in the west. I was worried that it would be politicized, but I thought he gave a tremendous speech that was inspiring to not only the United States but to the world.”
    ……..

    TrumpWord reacts:

    …….Crazy. Makes me think this guy has some dealings with Ukraine graft and will sell himself to protect the continued graft. Like, “What do they have on him?”……They want Putin out because he’s a populist. …….Getting 100,000 Ukrainians killed to destroy the military of a country that wasn’t our enemy isn’t an accomplished. …….[They want Putin out because he’s a populist.] Bingo. The globalist cabal cannot tolerate any country trying to hold on to its national sovereignty. The globalists in Europe and the U.S. are more of an enemy of humanity than Putin could ever be. …….No one wants the destruction of Russia. Sane people want the end of Russian aggression. ……..They want Putin because he’s their partner. Russian energy finances WEF/EU whack job green policies and keeps American influence out of Europe. Putin is brokering a Trump policy busting Iran deal with Brandon’s handlers. The WEF finds common cause with Putin because they both hate America and wish us to be defeated by the Chinese Communist Party. …….“Does he think the world will be safer if Russia is left with nothing but their nuclear forces?” It would be quite a bit safer for any country bordering Russia, that’s for sure. ……..[They want Putin out because he’s a populist.] Maybe, or maybe it’s because he’s a nationalist who won’t go along with the WEF world government plan. ……..We shouldn’t be destroying the Russian military. Right now, the Biden-Eu axis is ideologically more dangerous to the USA than Russia, spreading LGBT, communism, and environmental extremism all over the world……..[They want Putin out because he’s a populist.] And, because he’s a Christian that opposes the LGBT agenda. …..The Soviet Union had fanbois throughout the globe who wielded tremendous influence. Does modern Russia also have fanbois? Ok, sure, but in general they wield little to no influence…….

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  205. Slavery in China ring a bell?

    If we didn’t tolerate slavery in China the devices we use to debate the need to keep brave people from falling victim to tyrants would be a lot more expensive. It would be sad if our iPhones were more expensive.

    frosty (884ffb)

  206. Eleven months into WW2, Germany had captured Poland, Belgium, France, The Netherlands, Denmark, Luxembourg, Norway and the Battle Britain was full swing.

    Comparing the blitz to Russia in Ukraine is ridiculously stupid.

    JF (8adaa0)

  207. In what universe do you see the Biden Administration securing the southern border. even it it was running a surplus? They’d burn it first.
    Kevin M (1ea396) — 12/22/2022 @ 5:14 pm

    the same universe where people want to give Biden more billions to spend on other countries’ border security

    JF (8adaa0)

  208. So the Biden admin supports an invasion on our southern border?

    It’s not an “invasion”.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  209. Comparing the blitz to Russia in Ukraine is ridiculously stupid.

    The word is Blitzkrieg*. The “blitz” was the bombing of London.

    And the Russians did try it, and went into Kiev with parade uniforms in their packs instead of spare ammunition, and got their Spetnaz handed to them. Even under Zhukhov, the Russians were not Blitzkrieg quality. The Cossacks have it in their genes.

    *All nouns are capitalized in German.

    nk (48d53d)

  210. It’s not an “invasion”.
    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 12/22/2022 @ 6:40 pm

    whatever spin you want to put on it, it’s an unsustainable breach of our border security made worse by the end of Title 42 which the administration wanted

    why do you think they wanted Title 42 gone? Any ideas?

    JF (8adaa0)

  211. nk (48d53d) — 12/22/2022 @ 6:47 pm

    danke schön, Herr Obvious

    JF (8adaa0)

  212. Paulie,

    It’s not an “invasion.” It’s an invasion. No quotes are needed because it’s a fully accurate statement. Our border is under siege. Our national debt is in a perilous state. People can’t find necessary goods to feed or heal their sick kids. But you want to play games. We know where you stand.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  213. Bitte schön. Now, if you were comparing the London blitz to Putin’s rain of terror, with rockets and drones, we’re on the same page.

    nk (48d53d)

  214. whatever spin you want to put on it, it’s an unsustainable breach of our border security made worse by the end of Title 42 which the administration wanted

    Spin is redefining the word “invasion” to suit your political agenda, and Rob’s. The immigrants and refugees are trying to enter the country for a better life, they’re not an army set out to conquer the USA. Biden’s incompetence on the matter doesn’t make it an invasion, it just means we have an administration that can’t handle a border situation.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  215. No, Rob, “invasion”. Your fearmongering and hyperbole doesn’t take the scare quotes off.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  216. Bitte schön. Now, if you were comparing the London blitz to Putin’s rain of terror, with rockets and drones, we’re on the same page.
    nk (48d53d) — 12/22/2022 @ 7:09 pm

    yes, in the sense that it failed, we totally agree

    JF (8adaa0)

  217. Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 12/22/2022 @ 7:14 pm

    it’s intentional, not just incompetence

    but anything I suppose to avoid seeing the situation for what it is

    JF (8adaa0)

  218. @196 Its always that way.

    asset (90a486)

  219. Paul thinks he’ll be dead before the nation collapses. He doesn’t care. Right Birdie?

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  220. yes, in the sense that it failed, we totally agree

    Due, respectively, to the British and Ukrainians’ indomitability and Goering’s and the Russians’ incompetence.

    nk (48d53d)

  221. Graft and corruption while bleeding our nation dry.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  222. Beer and its delivery should both be free.
    After the first successful month of service, we can discuss Ukraine and how to salt Russian positions with cases of vodka. Its my opinion that cases of vodka are cheaper than artillery shells and possibly more effective

    steveg (0d2e7d)

  223. but anything I suppose to avoid seeing the situation for what it is

    Your problem is that Biden’s incompetence doesn’t transform immigrants/refugees into an army set out to conquer our nation, whether Biden is intentional about it or not. It’s not about you or Rob. We can agree that they no right to be here, and we can agree that this administration has been beyond stupid about how our government has been dealing with our borders.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  224. “The #Omnibus bill–

    Prohibits:
    -Hiring permanent Border Patrol agents
    -Spending money on technology to secure the border

    Allows:
    -Spending to help the BP move illegals into the country faster & more efficiently
    -The transportation & dumping of said illegals around the country”

    https://twitter.com/samparkersenate/status/1606013099160502272?s=46&t=d-OmXBED11agS5Z67lgtlQ

    From comments:

    “Yuma and El Paso should identify as Kyiv and Kharkiv if they want the US to protect their borders.”

    Obudman (6c7d77)

  225. Paul thinks he’ll be dead before the nation collapses. He doesn’t care. Right Birdie?

    I think you’re a liar who doesn’t have a clue, or any factual basis for your fearmongering or gross hyperbole.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  226. Terrible “invasion” that has been going on since the 70s with little effect (and has been declining for the last 15 years). I hate to tell you, but looking out at the lunch tables, I can’t tell the kids here without papers from the 1st gen kids from the 2nd gen kids. They are all just regular American kids.

    If anyone were serious, they would remove the draw instead of trying to build a dam with powdered sugar. Call me when the emphasis is on stopping the companies who employ people without employment documents.

    Nic (896fdf)

  227. Nic (896fdf) — 12/22/2022 @ 9:34 pm

    BS. What’s going on in towns like El Paso was not happening in the 70s. Migrants being flown across the country at taxpayer expense as federal policy was not going on since the 70s. Asylum rules that are being gamed were not around in the 70s, and asylum seekers don’t show up in your numbers. I’m all for strictly enforcing everify, and I’ll bet you’re not but surprise me.

    JF (68f249)

  228. @JF@231 I am in fact for e-verify as well as federal prosecution for companies that employ illegal immigrants. I would’ve thought that was clear from my comment.

    And you’re right, asylum wasn’t the same in the 70s. In the 70s we granted asylum to between 200,000 to 400,000 MORE people every year.

    Nic (896fdf)

  229. Why castles get stormed:

    Funny how an invasion of illegals into the United States is ignored by the powers that be but an illegal invasion into Ukraine has their undivided attention and financing. Such are the concerns of the Royalists; the elitists who care more about non-citizens who cannot vote rather than their constituents who do.

    DCSCA (9ca9fd)

  230. So the Biden admin supports an invasion on our southern border? Why are they deserving of any support. They refuse to do their primary job which is to protect the nation from invasion.

    Believe it or not, I can praise their handling of Ukraine while castigating them for most everything else. I can also walk and chew gum a the same time, although I shouldn’t make fun of those that cannot.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  231. Now, if you were comparing the London blitz to Putin’s rain of terror, with rockets and drones, we’re on the same page

    It’s really amazing how few movies show the blitz for what it was, and how the Brits stood up to it. I highly recommend the two-part novel Blackout/All Clear” by Connie Willis.

    It’s a wonderful historical novel, costumed as an SF time-travel book. These history students, you see, are sent back from 2060 to witness the blitz first hand, and their recall doesn’t work so they have to live through it somehow.

    2011 Hugo winner for best novel.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  232. ooops. Must close tags.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  233. Now, if you were comparing the London blitz to Putin’s rain of terror, with rockets and drones, we’re on the same page

    It’s really amazing how few movies show the blitz for what it was, and how the Brits stood up to it. I highly recommend the two-part novel Blackout/All Clear by Connie Willis.

    It’s a wonderful historical novel, costumed as an SF time-travel book. These history students, you see, are sent back from 2060 to witness the blitz first hand, and their recall doesn’t work so they have to live through it somehow.

    Winner of the Hugo, Nebula and Locus Awards for best novel of 2010.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  234. Why would biden and the democrat want to alienate soon to be voters? How do you think AOC becomes president? Except me none of you here would vote for AOC for president. Republicans will have to prove they are not trumpster insurrectionists before they can register and vote. This will be the new voter ID check.

    asset (90a486)

  235. @237. It’s really amazing how few movies show the blitz for what it was, and how the Brits stood up to it.

    Except there are:

    BLITZ: LONDON’S LONGEST NIGHT

    https://www.tpt.org/blitz-londons-longest-night/

    The World At War: Episode 4: Alone: May 1940-May, 1941

    https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3p7cx2

    The Battle of Britain, 1969

    Hope And Glory, 1987

    The Blitz: 80th Anniversary, 2021

    Mrs. Miniver, 1942

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJUNHg11dRc

    There’s plenty of film documentation about it. Personally own a piece of brick from the Houses of Parliament salvaged from a bombing in the Blitz.

    DCSCA (e237ee)

  236. ^ Danger: UXB, 1979

    ^ Piece Of Cake, 1988

    Plenty of films and docs on it.

    DCSCA (e237ee)

  237. Now, if you were comparing the London blitz to Putin’s rain of terror, with rockets and drones, we’re on the same page

    OFGS, no comparison; As of December 18, 2022, 6,826 civilian deaths were reported by the Office of the UN High Commissioner

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/1296924/ukraine-war-casualties-daily/

    Through ‘The Blitz’ in Battle of Britain, from September 1940 to May, 1941, 40,000 people were killed in raids– half of them, Londoners.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Blitz

    And the next time some bubblehead vainly tries to compare that bum in the Castro costume to Churchill, remind them that Winston address Congress wearing a coat and tie.

    DCSCA (e237ee)

  238. nic: “If anyone were serious, they would remove the draw instead of trying to build a dam with powdered sugar. Call me when the emphasis is on stopping the companies who employ people without employment documents.”

    This is my position too….and why I thought the over-emphasis on a wall was just an unnecessary distraction. You dry up jobs and many fewer are coming. You can still do seasonal workers with e-verify.

    AJ_Liberty (811aff)

  239. Maybe it’s because the photos are in black and white, but Zelenskyy wore the olive drab at the White House better than Churchill. The latter doesn’t have the physique to carry it off.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  240. See what happens when you ask Alexandria Ocasio Cortez to show you her papers when she applies for a job with your company. The next thing you will be doing is attending an EEOC hearing.

    E-verify is a fraud. You have to hire the employee first, before you can I-9 them. It’s just another blind end in the labyrinth of hypocrisy which are our immigration laws. Which laws themselves are the direct descendants of the slave trade.

    Rich jerkoffs need subsistence labor working from the shadows with no workers benefits or protections. And their political lapdogs need NJRob to vote for them.

    nk (48d53d)

  241. Happy Holidays everyone! Joy to all!

    AJ_Liberty (811aff)

  242. End the anchor baby fraud. Prevent illegals from ever getting government benefits. That will go a long way to fixing the problem. But our political class and their donors like reshaping America to their purposes.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  243. In the 70s we granted asylum to between 200,000 to 400,000 MORE people every year.
    Nic (896fdf) — 12/22/2022 @ 10:28 pm

    more BS

    JF (5ecbf1)

  244. e-verify doesn’t dry up the jobs or remove the draw. Get real.

    Cato is notoriously anti-anti-illegal-immigration but I believe their analysis that e-verify is only as good as the documents entered into the system, and there’s tons of fraudulent docs, and it only reduces the average wage gain for a Latin American worker from about 260% to 240%.

    The bottom line is nothing will work if we have an administration that doesn’t want to stem the tide. We had two tools that worked, Remain in Mexico and Title 42, and Biden works to get both tossed. And, they want funding restricted from being used for enforcement. Biden is actively working against our country’s border security like no other administration has.

    JF (5ecbf1)

  245. e-verify doesn’t dry up the jobs or remove the draw.

    I don’t think it was ever meant to. It’s one of those things politicians do instead of something.

    nk (48d53d)

  246. nk (48d53d) — 12/23/2022 @ 4:53 a

    E-verify is a fraud. You have to hire the employee first, before you can I-9 them.

    It’s not a fraud. It’s just totally impractical to expect every business to wait days to hire anybody and then to fire someone when the government tells it to.

    I think they are allowed to ask before a final decision is made — it maybe must be the last hurdle – but if the employee disputes the accuracy of e-verify, there is a waiting period before the person can be let go…

    A business is not allowed to discriminate on the basis of national origin, so a check for legality must be the LAST step, or at least done for every applicant at the same point in the hiring process. They cannot simplify by omitting or including the process on the basis of name or accent or anything.

    laws themselves are the direct descendants of the slave trade.

    Rich jerkoffs need subsistence labor working from the shadows with no workers benefits or protections.

    Poor people need it even more. Only the rich can afford to comply with all labor laws or even know how. And government can.

    There were many years between the end of slavery and the current situation. It didn’t become incumbent on employers to hire only persons permitted to work in the USA until 1987.

    Sammy Finkelman (f06781)

  247. Obudman (6c7d77) — 12/22/2022 @ 9:12 pm

    Cherry pickers. The restriction on hiring only applies to funding that is separate from their general appropriation.

    (The) Border Patrol is in line for a whopping 17% funding boost, which includes the funding for 300 new Border Patrol agents that the Biden administration had repeatedly stressed as necessary to handle the record-high numbers of migrants crossing the U.S.-Mexico border. If Border Patrol is unable to meet the hiring goal, it can use the funds on other efforts to boost morale. Customs and Border Protection would see its regular funding increase by 12%, though it would see a separate, one-time appropriation of $1.6 billion to address the uptick at the border. The encounters are only expected to increase when the pandemic-era policy known as Title 42 expires, though the Supreme Court has temporarily paused that from occurring. Immigration and Customs Enforcement would similarly receive a one-time boost of $340 million. None of the funds in those distinct appropriations could be used to hire permanent federal employees. The regular funding mechanism provided CBP’s Office of Field Operations with money to offset shortfalls from its fee collections that the agency had warned could lead to furloughs.

    Source

    Related:

    The bill provides $16.7 billion for CBP, $1.8 billion above the fiscal year 2022 enacted level and $1.3 billion above the President’s
    budget request, including:
    ……..
    $60 million for 125 new CBP officers, 250 technicians and 250 support staff;
    ……..
    – Provides $8.42 billion for ICE, $161.1 million above the fiscal year 2022 enacted level and $319.4 million above the President’s budget request, including:
    ……..
    -$4.2 billion for Enforcement and Removal Operations, $6 million above the fiscal year 2022 enacted level and $379.6 million above the President’s budget request, including:

    –$3.3 billion for Custody Operations and Transportation and Removal, $6 million above the fiscal year 2022 enacted level and $473.6 million above the President’s budget request…….

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  248. JF (5ecbf1) — 12/23/2022 @ 7:29 am

    We had two tools that worked, Remain in Mexico and Title 42,

    And both were illegal. And only worked to a limited degree.

    What did work better was raising the chance of dying on the trip. But AMLO wants a bigger bribe.

    And the truth is, what the pro-enforcement people never say, is that the United Sa=tates can only detain alimited number of people, so the more that come at the saame time the beter are the chances of being let free.

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/immigration-cynicism-on-capitol-hill-senators-kyrsten-sinema-thom-tillis-mike-lee-omnibus-congress-11671749418

    They know that the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) releases thousands of migrants into the country each day, saying it lacks the capacity to remove or detain them

    That’s why it comes in surges.

    And also the Biden Administration evidently feels it cannot make any plans as to where to put the people who cross the border (like on military bases for those without a family ready to take them in) because that would shirking their legal duty to enforce the law. So they must always be taken by surprise.

    Sammy Finkelman (f06781)

  249. The problem is people can’t argue for the policy they are really for, or don’t know how to.

    Sammy Finkelman (f06781)

  250. I’ve rejected a couple SS cards: 123-45-6789 and another one with the numbers typed at a 45 degree angle. The other cards are usually very professionally done although I assume some large percentage are fakes. I’m not a document expert, I have to follow anti-discrimination laws.

    One clue someone is likely working illegally is when SSA sends me a notice that the SS# and name do not match their records, but on the back of the notice it lists all the reasons not to discriminate on the basis of this notice. Government isn’t perfect so maybe they made a mistake, and they go out of their way to tell you that you are not required to do anything, the notice is information. My guess is the SSA doesn’t want to mess up that revenue stream.
    The other clue is when you get a notices an employees SS# comes back as owing child support in, let’s say Chicago at the same time under a different name, same SS#
    I send copy of Green card, SS card and CA DL and a short note with name, age on CDL dates of employment and it goes away.

    I would not do e-verify. I already do enough free work for the Feds and state and if I screw that up, there is legal jeopardy. No thanks

    steveg (4230ad)

  251. JF (231) I’m all for strictly enforcing everify,

    ALSO JF (248) e-verify doesn’t dry up the jobs or remove the draw. Get real.

    Dude, it’s the same thread, not even 20 comments apart. Really?

    @JF@247 Search engines are your friend.

    I had to be fingerprinted for my last 3 jobs and had to have a security and credit check for the one I had in college and we all have to provide social security or tax ID #s. It seems like it should be possible to have a proper employment check.

    Nic (896fdf)

  252. Memo to inflation riddled, debt burdened Americans:

    Sign U.S. flags w/messages and send them to Congress begging for help. Seems to work– and you won’t have to kiss Nancy.

    DCSCA (8580b2)

  253. Nic: Dude, it’s the same thread, not even 20 comments apart. Really?

    I’m sorry you’re having trouble with basic discourse. It’s sorta like, I’m all for checking people’s asylum stories, but will it put a dent in the fraud? Probably not. But, I’m guessing you don’t get that either.

    And yes, apparently search engines need lots of friends. SS card fraud is actually pretty common. I mean, as they say, do a little research.

    JF (f08056)

  254. Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 12/22/2022 @ 4:58 pm

    he’s just getting to the Holodomor.

    I think Stalin did that to force out of the Communist Party anyone with a shred of principle or compassion or wanting to take independent action.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  255. Medvedev said he and Xi had discussed the two countries’ “no limits” strategic partnership,

    This is back again?

    Except that it does have limits.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  256. DCSCA (9ca9fd) — 12/22/2022 @ 10:41 pm

    Funny how an invasion of illegals into the United States is ignored by the powers that be but an illegal invasion into Ukraine has their undivided attention and financing.

    You’ve never heard of Alfred Habdank Skarbek Korzybski and general semantics? Not that you should need that to recognize the fallacy here is using the same word to mean different things.

    This talk of an “invasion” of illegal immigrants and comparing it to a military invasion is so dishonest it should discredit, all by itself, anything else they say on the topic.

    Such are the concerns of the Royalists; the elitists who care more about non-citizens who cannot vote rather than their constituents who do.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  257. Such are the concerns of the Royalists; the elitists who care more about non-citizens who cannot vote rather than their constituents who do.

    Kevin said in #10, people who say that don’t actually care about Americans going hungry.

    They are against the welfare state.

    Except even on that point, Zelensky argued that what he is asking for is not charity (true or not)

    https://qz.com/read-transcript-ukraine-president-volodymyr-zelenskyy-s-1849922155

    Your money is not charity. It’s an investment in the global security and democracy that we handle in the most responsible way.

    You really think evil governments all around the world are no trouble?

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  258. Funny how neocons never exercise any self-awareness or humility.

    I’m not the one living in a right-wing bubble, where talk about “national divorce” is considered a serious topic.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  259. I think Stalin did that to force out of the Communist Party anyone with a shred of principle or compassion or wanting to take independent action.

    That was a good part of it, but collectivization was Stalin’s plan, and he made it worse when he purged Ukrainian communists and intellectuals to consolidate his power, and then he falsely blamed the Poles.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  260. I’m not the one living in a right-wing bubble, where talk about “national divorce” is considered a serious topic.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 12/23/2022 @ 4:38 pm

    Yeah, the bubble you live in is the one where others serve as your meat shield.

    Don’t worry about any kind of national divorce or even an outright civil war, Paul–it’s a guarantee you’ll be demanding others pick up the rifle in your stead if it ever happened.

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d)


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