Patterico's Pontifications

12/12/2022

Richmond’s Last City-Owned Confederate Monument Removed

Filed under: General — Dana @ 5:53 pm



[guest post by Dana]

After a two-year effort, the city of Richmond, Virginia, chosen capital of the Confederacy, removed its last remaining city-owned Confederate monument:

After receiving a favorable court ruling last week, workers made quick work to remove the A.P. Hill statue on the intersection of Laburnum Avenue and Hermitage Road. Team Henry Enterprises, the Newport News-based contractor that dismantled the Robert E. Lee monuments and others, were contracted to remove the Hill statue.

“I’m just proud to see my city start a project and finish a project,” said Richmond Mayor Levar Stoney. “This is something that we committed to years ago, when we sought out to turn the page on our Confederate history and start running a new chapter for the city of Richmond.”

“Richmond had more Confederate monuments than any other city in the United States of America, so this wasn’t just two years of work, this was 100 years of difficulty,” said Stoney. “I’m proud that we’ve now arrived at this moment in our history.”

The report says that the city officials confirm that the statue will be donated to the Black History Museum & Cultural Center of Virginia.

The removal of Hill’s statue, however, was not without complications:

Several indirect descendants of the Confederate general opposed the city’s plans and made their case in court following the city’s petition in May 2022. Their dispute centered on who is the rightful owner of the 130-year-old monument…“To us this is his headstone,” said John Hill, one of the Confederate general’s collateral descendants. “I feel like anyone else with a headstone with their family name on it, you don’t want to see it come down.”

After multiple court proceedings, Hill’s legal efforts were rebuffed by a Richmond Circuit Court judge in December.

[Hill]…said he doesn’t oppose the city’s plan to return Ambrose Powell Hill to his Culpepper home, but he intends to file an appeal to retain ownership of the statue.

I don’t think Hill’s claim that anyone with a headstone bearing their family name would not want to see it come down is true across the board. As far as monuments go, even the descendants of Confederate leaders wanted to see statues of their forefathers taken down:

The great-great grandchildren of Robert E. Lee, Jefferson Davis and Stonewall Jackson have a message for those who adamantly want to preserve the Confederate leaders’ monuments: Let it go.

Gen. Robert E. Lee:

“Eventually, someone is going to have to make a decision, and if that’s the local lawmaker, so be it. But we have to be able to have that conversation without all of the hatred and the violence. And if they choose to take those statues down, fine,” Robert E. Lee V, 54, of Washington DC, told CNN.

Jefferson Davis:

Bertram Hayes-Davis, great-great-grandson of the Confederate president Jefferson Davis told CNN’s Don Lemon that such statues should be moved to a museum if “that’s offensive to a large majority of the public.”

“In a public place, if it is offensive and people are taking issue with it, let’s move it. Let’s put it somewhere where historically it fits with the area around it so you can have people come to see it, who want to understand that history and that individual.”

Stonewall Jackson:

Two men who say they are the great-great grandsons of Stonewall Jackson published an open letter asking the Richmond mayor to remove Jackson’s statue – and others – from a prominent avenue in Richmond.

“We are writing to say that we understand justice very differently from our grandfather’s grandfather, and we wish to make it clear his statue does not represent us”, the open letter read in part…William Jackson Christian and Warren Edmund Christian said they know there are two sides to Jackson. He taught Sunday school to slaves, for instance. “But we cannot ignore his decision to own slaves, his decision to go to war for the Confederacy, and, ultimately, the fact that he was a white man fighting on the side of white supremacy.”

Compare those statements with this tidbit from descendant John Hill:

Hill said he was opposed to the removal of all the Richmond-owned Confederate statues because he sees them as a part of history. He also said that although many of the statues are seen as symbols of slavery and oppression, his ancestor did not own slaves.

“All of his census documents show he never owned a slave and he did not believe in slavery,” he said

About A.P. Hill:

Ambrose Powell Hill was born on November 9, 1825, at Greenland, his father’s plantation near Culpeper…Hill was a Confederate general in the Army of Northern Virginia during the American Civil War (1861–1865). Behind Thomas J. “Stonewall” Jackson and James Longstreet, “Little Powell,” as he was sometimes called, was Robert E. Lee‘s most trusted lieutenant, best known for leading his Light Division in headlong charges but just as effective when making stubborn defensive stands…he fought hard and well at Antietam (1862) and Chancellorsville (1863), and after Jackson’s death he took over the army’s new Third Corps.

Turn the page.

–Dana

503 Responses to “Richmond’s Last City-Owned Confederate Monument Removed”

  1. Hello.

    Dana (1225fc)

  2. Hill Monument located in a traffic circle at the intersection of Hermitage Road and Labernum Avenue in the state capital is the only remaining Confederate statue still standing in Richmond. It is a burial site as well and contains at least partial human remains of Ambrose Powell Hill Jr., born Nov. 9, 1825 in Culpeper.

    I am on the side of the Hill family. There may be acceptable reasons for desecrating graves, but pandering to grievance mongers and race hustlers is not one of them in the culture I come from. And in many other cultures, Old World and New World.

    nk (bb1548)

  3. Had a relative who fought for Virginia and ran the Confederate hospital in Richmond for a time; and relatives from Ohio who fought for the Union and put traitors into that hospital. Not proud of the family grey-belly though the medals and his uniform brass, the hat badge, etc.,- his Confederate currency and so forth has some value today to collectors– but certainly no sentiment…

    Lest we forget the citizens of the United States of America traitor AP Hill killed at Fredericksburg and at Gettysburg, to name a few. And there’s a memorial/marker/statue to this scumbag on American soil?!?!

    Pull it down.

    Replace it. With one of John W. Mauck:

    “Hill had said he had no desire to live to see the collapse of the Confederacy, and on April 2, 1865 (during the Union breakthrough in the Third Battle of Petersburg, just seven days before Lee’s surrender at Appomattox Court House), he was shot dead by a Union soldier, Corporal John W. Mauck of the 138th Pennsylvania.”https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._P._Hill

    DCSCA (362b8e)

  4. I don’t think Hill’s claim that anyone with a headstone bearing their family name would not want to see it come down is true across the board. As far as monuments go, even the descendants of Confederate leaders wanted to see statues of their forefathers taken down:

    Yeah, but as far as I can tell, the descendants you quoted are talking about standalone statues, not gravesite monuments. IMO that distinction is determinative.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  5. I have this plan where the descendants of slave-owners have to pay reparations to the descendants of their slaves. Lets ask them how they feel about that.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  6. Meanwhile in Philadelphia, the city was ordered to remove the box from around a statue of Columbus and to stop any plans to move it. It turns out it’s not city property and the city itself declared it an historic monument in 2017.

    https://nypost.com/2022/12/12/philadelphia-forced-to-remove-box-covering-columbus-statue/

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  7. @ 5 the deep state has a plan to keep black people disarmed except for criminals who help control black areas. White people owning guns is no threat the corporate establishment and can be easily controlled if necessary. Black militants shooting back at racism backed up by ever increasing armed black community is not! So they trow them a bone like richmond.

    asset (fe7713)

  8. This is another monument that was erected by the Sons of the Confederacy during the reconciliation / lost cause era.

    https://www.encyclopedia.com/history/applied-and-social-sciences-magazines/reconciliation-movement

    It was erected in 1912, 47 years after the end of the civil war. This would be similar to a monument going up today to celebrate the end of the Vietnam war. Except if you look at the history of that time monuments were being raised as part of the push for Jim Crow & segregation.

    So in context, this wasn’t motivated to honor a war hero that died 50 years ago (or at least it wasn’t jus that) it was a monument put up as part of the drive to push Jim Crow and legalize segregation.

    I’m glad it was taken down and I’m glad it was moved to a museum where it can continue to inform and educate the public without standing as a confusing symbol of both a war hero and the systemic oppression of black Americans by the US government.

    Time123 (0b1a90)

  9. I was pleased to learn, some years ago, that Richmond had a statue of the winner — and a rather nice one, in my opinion.

    Sadly, the motto seems timely.

    Jim Miller (f29931)

  10. It was erected in 1912, 47 years after the end of the civil war.

    It took that long for the South to recover sufficiently from the devastation of the War and Reconstruction to be able to afford statues.

    nk (c5fa34)

  11. If this hysteria was just about Confederates, why are statutes of Columbus, Roosevelt, Churchill, etc., also being removed? Why were Thomas Jefferson Elementary School and George Mason High School (in Falls Church, VA) renamed?

    Everyone can see where this is heading, and where it ends. If you give a moose a muffin…

    mikeybates (dd20f5)

  12. Mikeybates, seems like we can work these as they come up. I don’t think fear of a slippery slope is a reason to leave up a monument to segregation.

    Time123 (265b62)

  13. We need more Malcolm X schools. How about Nat turner or Fred hampton schools? As for white area schools John Brown and for latinx AOC.

    asset (49d3a6)

  14. No different than the taliban.

    NJRob (5d83a0)

  15. @14 Except for the fact that legal process was followed, the taliban focused on religious monuments from other faiths, and this monument wasn’t destroyed, it was moved to a museum.

    But why let facts change get in the way of your opinions.

    Time123 (0b1a90)

  16. The taliban followed “their process” as well.

    NJRob (5d83a0)

  17. As did the Alies when they pulled down nazi monuments. Which is a better analogy to this situation.

    Time123 (497126)

  18. Except that this is a grave, and the monument is a monument in the sense of a headstone and not in the sense of an idol or a swastika, but why let inconvenient facts get in the way of a good pander?

    nk (c5fa34)

  19. While they’re at it, why stop at digging him up and reburying him somewhere else? Why don’t they quarter his body and hang the pieces at four crossroads?

    “Yit wias mewved to a mewsieum!” I don’t even.

    nk (c5fa34)

  20. A headstone put in place 47 years after the burial? Try harder NK.

    Time123 (6b63fd)

  21. His. Body. Was. Buried. There.

    Capisce?

    Neither is it unheard of to replace a grave marker with a more imposing stone or monument. If you want hear of it, of course.

    nk (c5fa34)

  22. #20. I think that’s a valid criticism of the neo-Confederates who claim monuments to Confederate generals erected 70+ years after the Civil War ended, coincidentally when Jim Crow was under fire, were just innocuous, even virtuous markers of their noble history and beloved long-deceased ancestors, not banners of the racist, lost-cause revanchism they actually were. But when there’s an actual corpse down there, or at least parts of one, I don’t see why it matters how long after its interment the headstone was erected. ISTM gravestones are entitled to deference and respect, even if the deceased they memorialize fought for an evil cause. Demanding their removal strikes me as mean-spirited and vindictive.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  23. Unfortunately it looks like he was reburied there as a political statement to begin with, since his body had been moved twice in the past. According to the news, he’ll be reburied this time in a proper cemetery in his home town.

    Nic (896fdf)

  24. I did say it was “my culture”.

    And I just remembered that I regularly drive past a Chicago public school which is built on the former potter’s field of an insane asylum, and in another place, a shopping center built on top of the potter’s field of another insane asylum.

    nk (c5fa34)

  25. When I hear the word culture I reach for my gun! Heinrich himmler and your average trump supporter.

    asset (f8292c)

  26. Unfortunately it looks like he was reburied there as a political statement to begin with, since his body had been moved twice in the past.

    If that’s true, it’s mitigating.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  27. an idol or a swastika

    Golly; plant AP in the Bitburg military cemetary in Germany. You know what the difference is between a Nazi swastika/monument/memorial and any Confederate monument/memorial?

    Nothing.

    DCSCA (e823cb)

  28. We need more Malcolm X schools. How about Nat turner or Fred hampton schools? As for white area schools John Brown and for latinx AOC.

    Malcolm and the Panthers never got anywhere because their pitch was to tell black folk they were getting screwed. They already knew that and it didn’t help with the problem. MLK is revered because the message he carried was to whites, and it was a simple one: SHAME. And then “You can do better.” And it worked.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  29. When I hear the word culture I reach for my gun!

    Most barbarians do.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  30. However, a statue to someone who fought and died for human slavery is not “culture.” But it is a good repudiation of anyone who claims that all cultures are equally valid.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  31. I’ve always come down on this being a local matter, that local voters and their representatives should decide what is in the public square. However, there is a lot of baggage that comes along with honoring confederate soldiers and leaders in prominent public locations. Yes, someone like Robert E.Lee was complex, multi-faceted and is a huge part of the civil war narrative. Hill was lesser known. Could these statues be relocated to cemeteries and museums where visitors can see them and reflect on the person’s historical place? Certainly. The problem is the slippery slope and who survives. Should Washington and Jefferson be sent to the museum backlot? That erases a lot.

    Much of this is wrapped up in racial reconciliation…or maybe accounting. Blacks have historical grievance. Whites argue that the bill has been paid….as best as possible, and it’s time to move on. White supremacy lingers. It’s unclear how things get further balanced, but it’s unquestionable that it’s not getting wished away….

    AJ_Liberty (6a18fd)

  32. When the Persians invaded Greece in 479 BC, they conquered a Greek city on the eastern coast of the Aegean. The Persian commander broke into the mausoleum of a prior ruler of that city, threw out his corpse and scattered his “sacred soil”, and then he used the mausoleum to stable his horses. Or maybe it was his concubines.

    After the Greeks defeated the Persians and took back the city, they refused to accept ransom for the Persian. They judged him guilty of sacrilege and crucified him, and stoned his oldest son.

    That’s what I meant about “culture”. Not whether you like Dolly Parton or Megan Thee Stallion or put catsup on a hot dog.

    nk (c5fa34)

  33. @22, Lurker as I pointed out, this monument was erected as part of the movement to create Jim Crow in the early 1900’s. They moved the guy’s remains as part of creating this statue.

    The city isn’t moving him from where he fell or from where he was originally interred. They’re moving them from where the Sons of the Confederacy put them 47 years after his death as part of PR campaign to build support for segregation.

    So to be fair, the monument does three things
    1. Marks the current burial place.
    2. Honors a confederate soldier.
    3. Honors the segregation movement.

    It’s complicated, and I agree with AJ that the local democratic process should govern this, which it did.

    Time123 (0b1a90)

  34. However, a statue to someone who fought and died for human slavery is not “culture.

    I disagree, that’s very much a a culture. As is rejecting education, rejecting women’s participation in society, or aspiring to sell drugs on the corner.

    All of those are cultures, they’re just cultures that deserve little respect.

    Time123 (0b1a90)

  35. That’s what I meant about “culture”. Not whether you like Dolly Parton or Megan Thee Stallion or put catsup on a hot dog.

    Or spell it “ketchup”.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  36. @21. So what. A Richmond landfill awaits the traitor… He doesn’t even rate a parking lot…

    ‘LONDON (Reuters) – Just three years after the extraordinary discovery of King Richard III under a car park, researchers think another medieval English monarch might be found buried beneath a parking lot and are hoping to find him.

    Philippa Langley, the inspiration behind the successful hunt for Richard III’s remains, is now on the trail of his forebear Henry I, one of the first rulers of England following the Norman conquest in the 11th Century. She is part of a team seeking backing to search for the ruins of Reading Abbey, founded by Henry in 1121 and where he was buried after his death 14 years later, allegedly brought about by eating too many lampreys, a type of fish. Like Richard, the exact whereabouts of Henry’s final resting place is unknown after the abbey, including his tomb, was mostly destroyed some 400 years later.

    “The thinking in Reading, using current estimates of the size of the abbey, is that this burial spot is located beneath a school,” Langley told BBC History Magazine. “If the abbey is larger, it could be situated underneath either what is today a playground or a car park.”

    The discovery of the body of Richard III, the last of the Plantagenet dynasty and the last English king to die in battle in 1485, under a council car park in Leicester, central England, is considered one of the greatest archaeological discoveries of recent British history.

    His body was re-buried in Leicester Cathedral in March at a somber ceremony which attracted global interest. Richard was depicted by Shakespeare as a deformed tyrant who murdered his own nephews, one of whom was the rightful king. This view is challenged by Langley and the Richard III Society who say he was the victim of propaganda after his defeat in battle by Henry Tudor, later King Henry VII.

    Likewise, Henry I has a chequered reputation. The fourth son of William I, who conquered England in 1066, he came to the throne in 1100 after his brother William II died in a suspicious hunting accident, gaining a reputation as a sometimes cruel ruler He was the first Norman king to learn to speak English and was later nicknamed “Beauclerc” because he was well-educated.’

    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/king-henry-i-parking-lot_n_7419488

    DCSCA (e2b879)

  37. Time123 (0b1a90) — 12/14/2022 @ 6:45 am

    Lurker as I pointed out, this monument was erected as part of the movement to create Jim Crow in the early 1900’s.

    Jim Crow was created in the 1890s. This “lost cause” honoring took a little longer. It reached its heght in the 1920s when they were about to build giant statues of 4 important Confederate figures in Georgia. This was stopped by offering the architect or sculptor a commission in Texas, (which never got built, but got him away from Georgia) and later by commissioning Mount Rushmore and in the meantime what he had already built in Georgia got dynamited. (I think some people probably secretly fomented a dispute)

    The Confederate Bamiyan type statues were later restarted after Brown v Board of Education and finally completed after the Civil Right movement had been victorious.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gutzon_Borglum

    n 1925, the sculptor moved to Texas to work on the monument to trail drivers commissioned by the Trail Drivers Association. He completed the model in 1925, but due to lack of funds it was not cast until 1940, and then was only a fourth its originally planned size. It stands in front of the Texas Pioneer and Trail Drivers Memorial Hall next to the Witte Museum in San Antonio. ….At Stone Mountain he developed sympathetic connections with the reorganized Ku Klux Klan, who were major financial backers of the monument. Lee’s head was unveiled on Lee’s birthday January 19, 1924, to a large crowd, but soon thereafter Borglum was increasingly at odds with the officials of the organization. His domineering, perfectionist, authoritarian manner brought tensions to such a point that in March 1925 Borglum smashed his clay and plaster models. He left Georgia permanently, his tenure with the organization over. None of his work remains, as it was all blasted off the mountain’s face for the work of Borglum’s replacement Henry Augustus Lukeman. In his abortive attempt, however, Borglum had developed the necessary techniques for sculpting on a gigantic scale that made Mount Rushmore possible.

    https://www.sanantoniouncovered.com/2018/05/gutzon-borglum-and-mount-rushmore-san.html

    When Borglum arrived in San Antonio, he had just been fired by the group who had commissioned him to create a monument in Stone Mountain, Georgia, honoring Confederate heroes. He left Georgia a fugitive for destroying a vital model of the uncompleted sculpture.

    I think he may have been bribed to do so. He maybe didn’t believe in aything — except constructing large statues.

    Sammy FInkelman (1d215a)

  38. Jim Crow was created in the 1890s.

    In part, but it took Woodrow Wilson to push segregation nationally. The Klan was never so strong as it was in the 1920s.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  39. Yes it got worse and worse.

    Woodrow Wilson brought Jim Crow to the Navy and the federal government, but it didn’t really take off until the 1920s,

    Sammy FInkelman (1d215a)

  40. @28 White legislators pushed MLK day when blacks started agitating for a Malcolm X Day! Before that they had no interest in king day. The deep corporate state keeps on top of things.

    asset (f44a44)

  41. The Confederate Generals still grace (disgrace) the face of Stone Mountain, just down the road from Atlanta. Stone Mountain was the birthplace of the reincarnated Ku Klux Klan. The town of Stone Mountain went majority black a while ago, and the state park which manages Stone Mountain is run by a black man.

    Nobdody is spending much time thinking about what to do with the place. It’s just too awkward, and blasting the mountain again is an environmental disaster. Stone Mountain itself is geographically significant as it is, genuinely, just a giant rock.

    Appalled (4128b6)

  42. I went to Stone Mountain in the 60’s on a family vacation. My dad loves American Civil War history almost as much as the WWII US Pacific campaign.
    A State Park like Stone Mountain is similar in a sense to Manzanar National Historical Site and should be about opening, facilitating conversations.

    One of the funniest things I see are the people who claim that they would never have owned slaves if they were to go for a walk in some 1526-1874 shoes… particularly the richest people on the left who pay their servants a buck or two over minimum wage, no vacation and expect them to be on call 24/7. Yes. They are very likely to have been a person that would have owned slaves.

    steveg (2bdb4b)

  43. @42 what you call the left is the democrat establishment like clintons/bidens. They are actually center right. Bernie sanders and AOC would not have owned slaves. Even back then when the left were radical republicans Henry David Thoreau said of radical John Brown’s raid on harpers ferry “shapes rifles were never used in a better cause!” Read Thoreau’s essays on John Brown. Fredrick douglas said “I could live to free the slaves John Brown could die to free the slaves!” When harriet tubman asked Douglas hey bro why weren’t you at harpers ferry with John Brown ??? Douglas said “I was always better at running then fighting! and I will say know more in my defense.” He later excused himself by saying we were all busy keeping Harriet Tubman from going with John Brown by physically restraining her in a closet. The republican establishment even Lincoln were shocked and aghast by Captain John Brown of Kansas actually doing something besides whining to free the slaves.

    asset (fcc1fc)

  44. A State Park like Stone Mountain is similar in a sense to Manzanar National Historical Site and should be about opening, facilitating conversations.

    Stone Mountain celebrates traitors (who sought to preserve the institution of slavery), while the Manzanar National Historic Site represents an attempt to atone for one of the darkest chapters in modern US history. Hardly the same thing.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  45. White legislators pushed MLK day when blacks started agitating for a Malcolm X Day! Before that they had no interest in king day.

    Malcolm X changed nothing. He was just an ineffective angry man. MLK changed everything by convincing white folk that what had been going on was wrong. Black folk already knew that.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  46. R.I.P. Stuart Margolin, 82

    Now, truly, an Angel.

    DCSCA (cc83a1)

  47. Suppose a person was interested in learning about modern slavery. Where should they start? There are many places, but I would suggest beginning with Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn’s Gulag (or even his “One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich”).

    (One of the more interesting things about Bernie Sanders’ career is that he apparently never met Solzhenitsyn, even though the great Russian writer lived for years in Vermont.)

    For the Chinese equivalent, Laogai, the information is much less available — and now more important, since the camps are still in operation.

    For the slavery in Mauritania, you could begin with this Wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Mauritania

    I don’t know of any single source on the way ISIS brought slavery back to Christian and Yazidi minorities in Syria and Iraq. What strikes me most about it is how open they were in their actions.

    (For a quick overall history of anti-slavery movements, this time line is hard to beat: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_abolition_of_slavery_and_serfdom

    Two details I didn’t know about:

    Peonage Act of 1867, mostly targeting use of Native American peons in New Mexico Territory. Slavery among native tribes in Alaska was abolished after the purchase from Russia in 1867.

    I have seen estimates that as many as one-fourth of the Indians in my area — the Pacific coastal Northwest — were slaves as late as the 1860s.)

    Jim Miller (f29931)

  48. Rip

    That is an easy thing to say now.
    If you were born into the south in 1800 to 1865, I do not think you can say for sure how your life would have gone.
    The men on that mountain in Georgia were not seen as traitors in their time, by their peers.
    The first homo sapiens were illiterate and since then there has been a curve or arc of evolution of belief and behavior. Judging people down arc is actually trickier than it seems. For example, teaching slaves to read and write was considered incredibly enlightened or an incredible waste of time. Deciding not to whip your slaves, or your own children seemed like a overly permissive world view. Dueling over honor was expected. The list goes on and on, but we were raised in a completely different world

    steveg (80483c)

  49. @22, Lurker as I pointed out, this monument was erected as part of the movement to create Jim Crow in the early 1900’s. They moved the guy’s remains as part of creating this statue.

    Time123 (0b1a90) — 12/14/2022 @ 6:45 am

    Yeah, I got that the monument was erected by Jim Crow supporters, but the first I saw of the remains being moved was when Nic mentioned it. If you did too, I didn’t notice it. Without the corpse relocation, I give more deference to the sanctity of the gravesite. With it, scr*w em. I’m fine with the locals moving the monument wherever they want.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  50. steveg

    Slavery is a ultra touchy issue, whipping beatings, breaking up families was literally stopped by the 1830’s in the deep south. The reasons weren’t altruistic, they were practical. Slaves spoke english by then, many could read, they greatly outnumbered the owners. Many of them were allowed to hunt, had fire arms, built houses – they were still slaves, but they were a growing thriving community, very capable of defending themselves, Louisiana passed laws putting local sheriffs in charge of their welfare – they so feared an uprising.. After the war they stayed put, they for the most part didnt leave the south except when the former owner went broke.

    I was stunned to hear this from my prof Ambrose (Band of Brothers fame) I argued this wasnt true – he sent me on a quest – I read the papers of the deep south myself Tulane has the largest collection available on early American southern papers.

    Also saw that it took WW2 and Korea to break the former slaves out of the south. Really shocked me – but I can see why no one touches it, slavery was wrong, horrible, still a common practice in every middle east country today, and india Vietnam, Thailand, China, North Vietnam.

    History is to be changed and forgotten in the quest for victimization for fun and profit

    EPWJ (650a62)

  51. @47 In 2022 several states voted to abolish slavery not covered by 14th amendment. Louisiana voted to keep slavery.

    asset (07cfa3)

  52. @45 Malcolm X changed a lot of things. Before his murder Dr. king would say to the white power structure when they were being difficult. You deal with me or you deal with Malcolm X! After his murder Dr king would say you deal with me or you deal with the black militants like the black panthers. Older negroes had picture of Dr.king on wall younger blacks had pictures of Malcolm X and Angela Davis (who reclently was banned from speaking in NY state) LatinX have picture of AOC our future president.

    asset (07cfa3)

  53. Today 10th anniversary of newtown school shooting. Uvalde anniversary will be coming up.

    asset (07cfa3)

  54. 50

    EPWJ

    Yes, and after WWII and Korean War, the African Americans made their way from the south up to Detroit, Flint, Gary, Toledo and after a short Motown run it all crumbled under the weight of post Vietnam economic slowdown in sync with an over priced UAW. The Chicago run for African Americans fell around the same time. Good paying jobs evaporated and were replaced by welfare programs that treated African Americans like toddlers

    steveg (80483c)

  55. Speaking of traitors……

    Pres. Biden pledges U.S. taxpayers will pay South Africa $8 billion to shut down their coal power plants

    https://www.foxnews.com/media/biden-roasted-sending-south-africa-8-billion-shut-coal-weapon-grade-lunacy

    Also:

    Despite climate commitments, the EU is going back to coal

    Faced with gas shortages, several EU member states, including France, have announced the extension or reopening of coal-fired power plants that were shut down in response to climate change issues.

    https://www.lemonde.fr/en/economy/article/2022/09/02/despite-climate-commitments-the-eu-is-going-back-to-coal_5995594_19.html

    There are conservatives who voted for this.

    Obudman (6c7d77)

  56. Stone Mountain has a history that has little to do with the Civil War and a lot to do with the Ku Klux Klan. The original owner of the property (before it was given to the State of Georgia) was a founder of the second edition of the Klan, and the first meeting (and cross burning) of that group occurred on the top of it.

    Because the mountain had a big open face of eminently carvable stone, the local Ku Kluxers hatched the idea of carving Confederate Leaders on it. The work went off and on for years, but was not really completed until the 60s — when Lester Maddox was governor. It is a big park with an amusement park component — it’s competition to Six Flags. It’s also got the sort of unique geography that you establish a State Park or National Park for. If the mountain had not been butchered to honor folks who we would be better off forgetting, it would be an impressive site in the middle of multicultural suburbia. Now — it’s an embarassment for which there is no particularly good solution.

    Wikipedia actually does a good job in describing the place and it’s history:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_Mountain

    Appalled (8bd906)

  57. Rip

    That is an easy thing to say now.
    If you were born into the south in 1800 to 1865, I do not think you can say for sure how your life would have gone.
    The men on that mountain in Georgia were not seen as traitors in their time, by their peers.

    Whether Jefferson Davis, Robert E. Lee, or Stonewall Jackson were considered traitors to the United States of America by the South in the 1860s is immaterial. As individuals who owed allegiance to the United States, they levied war against the US, and adhered to its enemies, which is spelled out in the Constitution.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  58. OT: Trump’s major announcement today is that he’s releasing digital NFT “trading cards” of Trump-branded cards.

    Ye gods, I thought it was a parody.

    whembly (d116f3)

  59. Trump’s new grift.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  60. Rip

    “they levied war against the US, and adhered to its enemies, which is spelled out in the Constitution.”

    No, Federal Troops interfered with the lawful operations of their states and their citizens, causing them to leave the Republic – WHICH they had a right to do and any state does – it may cause a shooting war, but any state can leave the union – I disagree with slavery – I disagreed with Lee – his duty was to the constitution – he should had advised they could not win the war.

    The only reason Davis started firing on Sumter was he misread the envoy from England’s advice that Britons supported the south and the Royal Navy would blockade the Norths major cities. Britain sent 120,000 troops to Canada in 1861, with heavy artillery. England still wanted New England at least back and New York. Lincoln was forced for most of the war to keep most of his troops in Garrisons in NYC, Boston, Philadelphia and along the Maine Coast- something they forget to teach even in conservative history classes.

    There were 340,000 troops that never took part in the first 3 years of campaigns. Had even 40% of these released, Polk would have crushed Beauregard. The Union was outmanned and outgunned until Gettysburg and even then had trouble assembling their strength as the south were stronger men in better shape than the soft city dwellers that slowed every union formation

    Both sides were Americans – both sides were thinking they were fighting for the real America.

    As far as the KKK, I hate them, the BLM is worse, the Black Panther even more worse, and the Crips and the Bloods and the Chicago gangs have killed more blacks then the Klan. Its just crazy, the killing and how society accepts it. Its wrong on sooo many levels.

    But we’re focusing on comfortable issues of dead confederates and their monuments when the real problem is crime, and its racial to some degree and we have to still move forward in prosecuting them. Every race has criminals, but people want to be special…

    EPWJ (650a62)

  61. “they levied war against the US, and adhered to its enemies, which is spelled out in the Constitution.”

    As we’ve previously discussed, that’s an OR, not an AND. The levying of war against the US was sufficient to show treason. This began unprovoked at Fort Sumter and continued by raising an army to resist federal troops lawfully seeking to put down an insurrection.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  62. No, Federal Troops interfered with the lawful operations of their states and their citizens, causing them to leave the Republic

    Federal troops did utterly nothing before secession. After secession, the rebellious states used force to seize al US assets within their borders. By doing so, they waged war against the United States and crossed the line into treason.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  63. As far as the KKK, I hate them, the BLM is worse, the Black Panther even more worse, and the Crips and the Bloods and the Chicago gangs have killed more blacks then the Klan.

    This is so ludicrous that it enters the realm of self-parody.

    The post-war Klan under Nathan Bedford Forrest were terrorists, killing anyone seen as cooperating with the Union occupation, and particularly targeting local Republican office-holders. They also threatened, harmed or killed any freedmen that attempted to vote or otherwise challenge white supremacy. In the election of 1868, one thousand blacks were murdered by the Klan in Louisiana alone.

    Comparing them to the Panthers, or BLM, is not only silly, it looks pretty stupid.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  64. @64, that’s a very kind way to describe it

    Time123 (86db70)

  65. I love Trump’s new NTF scam. I hope the humiliation of his supporters results in further loss of support and the eventual rejection of his “ideology”,

    But I expect it will result in trump making a few bucks at their expense and laughing his way to the bank. He’s immune to the concept of shame so if it raises a buck he doesn’t care.

    Time123 (86db70)

  66. No, Federal Troops interfered with the lawful operations of their states and their citizens, causing them to leave the Republic …..

    EPWJ (650a62) — 12/15/2022 @ 9:53 am

    Uhhh, no:

    Georgia

    The people of Georgia having dissolved their political connection with the Government of the United States of America, present to their confederates and the world the causes which have led to the separation. For the last ten years we have had numerous and serious causes of complaint against our non-slave-holding confederate States with reference to the subject of African slavery. They have endeavored to weaken our security, to disturb our domestic peace and tranquility, and persistently refused to comply with their express constitutional obligations to us in reference to that property……
    ……..

    Mississippi
    ………
    Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery– the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin. That we do not overstate the dangers to our institution, a reference to a few facts will sufficiently prove.
    ……..
    ……..
    Texas
    …….
    ………(Texas) was received as a commonwealth holding, maintaining and protecting the institution known as negro slavery– the servitude of the African to the white race within her limits– a relation that had existed from the first settlement of her wilderness by the white race, and which her people intended should exist in all future time. Her institutions and geographical position established the strongest ties between her and other slave-holding States of the confederacy. Those ties have been strengthened by association. But what has been the course of the government of the United States, and of the people and authorities of the non-slave-holding States, since our connection with them?

    The controlling majority of the Federal Government, under various pretences and disguises, has so administered the same as to exclude the citizens of the Southern States, unless under odious and unconstitutional restrictions, from all the immense territory owned in common by all the States on the Pacific Ocean, for the avowed purpose of acquiring sufficient power in the common government to use it as a means of destroying the institutions of Texas and her sister slaveholding States.
    ……..

    Arkansas:
    ……..
    1. The people of the northern States have organized a political party, purely sectional in its character; the central and controlling idea of which is hostility to the institution of African slavery, as it exists in the southern States, and that party has elected a President and Vice President of the United States, pledged to administer the government upon principles inconsistent with the rights, and subversive of the interests of the people of the southern States.

    2. They have denied to the people of the southern States the right to an equal participation in the benefits of the common territories of the Union by refusing them the same protection to their slave property therein that is afforded to other property, and by declaring that no more slave states shall be be admitted into the Union.
    ……..

    Five other seceding states did not write elaborate explanations why they seceded, but I am sure they agreed with the sentiments above.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  67. Should be a blockquote around Arkansas.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  68. #65

    Next up — Trump advertising reverse mortgages.

    (“One thing I learned in business is the importance of leverage.Now, in your golden retirement years, you can let me teach you how important it is to not own your own stuff. If you are tired of tuna fih and crackers, let me show you how to raise the money for a Trump steak.”)

    Appalled (571d57)

  69. Kevin M — even *after* secession, the federal government’s initial reaction was to simply *ignore* it. The Confederates fired the first shot *to prevent the resupply of a fort which was federal territory*. Lincoln had not been planning a war until that happened.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  70. Honestly, I have to admit, war against dead people is the best kind of war.

    nk (991e24)

  71. Kevin,

    LA compton, southside chicago – all of St Louis – 2,000 dead 12,000 shot every year since the 1980’s – attributed to organized gangs. The Klan did horrible things – but most were captured and killed – this came from the old FBI, the one that used to care about crime.

    Rip,

    Those statements are not historical.. Period. The House introduced a bill to outlaw slavery, Powell assembled 18,000 men to seize Richmond and 30,000 men to Seize New Orleans – the USN was already blockading Savannah Virginia. Lincoln completely misread the south thinking the poor southern farmers are not going to die for their rich plantation owners

    Lincoln thought wrong, so did his generals.

    EPWJ (650a62)

  72. One problem with that analysis — EpWJ. Virginia did not secede until Fort Sumter was fired upon. So no way was ordering troops to head to Richmond any kind of precipitation for War.

    Appalled (58a369)

  73. Rip,

    Those statements are not historical….

    Not sure what you mean they are “not historical.” They are certainly contemporaneous to their state’s secession. Clearly preservation of slavery was their motivating factor in setting up the CSA.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  74. Rip,

    Those statements are not historical….

    Is there documentary evidence (akin to the secession resolutions) that Southerners thought that “Federal Troops interfer(ing) with the lawful operations of their states and their citizens, caus(ed) them to leave the Republic….”?

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  75. Just think, this digital schlock is $99 per card.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  76. EPWJ — are you seriously arguing that the statements made by the states in their formal instruments of secession are not illustrative of the reasons for secession?

    Similarly, I suppose, the declaration of independence isn’t a good guide to why the continental congress declared independence.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  77. #60 Well, I must say tha account of the beginning of the Civil War is . . . entertaining.

    Jim Miller (f29931)

  78. Just think, this digital schlock is $99 per card.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 12/15/2022 @ 12:49 pm

    Can I get one with his statement about terminating the Constitution?

    What a laughingstock. Is there anyone here who still supports him?

    norcal (862cdb)

  79. #79

    Is there anyone here who still supports him?

    You realize the troll deluge will be coming and it will be your doing.

    Appalled (571d57)

  80. You realize the troll deluge will be coming and it will be your doing.

    Appalled (571d57) — 12/15/2022 @ 2:10 pm

    I don’t know. Since both my crazy cousin and foolhardy friend have moved on from Trump, and now support DeSantis, I think his fans are becoming as rare as Pappy Van Winkle.

    norcal (862cdb)

  81. 74. Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 12/15/2022 @ 12:41 pm

    Clearly preservation of slavery was their motivating factor in setting up the CSA.

    I don’t think so, because it was no immediate danger.

    What the fire eaters sought the preservation of was their aspirations for higher office.

    No defender of slavery could hope for any positions, and they would lose on other issues as well.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  82. Rip Murdock @66.

    A lot of complaints there but mostly not that slavery is about to abolished.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  83. steveg (80483c) — 12/14/2022 @ 10:29 pm

    Yes, and after WWII and Korean War, the African Americans made their way from the south up to Detroit, Flint, Gary, Toledo

    This gets the timing wrong. What they call “the Great Migration” started in 1916. SOuthern members of Congress prevented reapportionment of Congress after the 1920 Census, using part of their excuse (a political and not legal excuse – the official excuse was a disagreement on how to apportion representatives between the state plus the fact that the number of members of the House had been fixed at 435 in 1911, having previously been increased after every U. S. Census. ) that the loss of population in the south was temporary.

    The only place it came later was California, where African Americans came in substantial numbers during World War II.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  84. 74. Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 12/15/2022 @ 12:41 pm

    Clearly preservation of slavery was their motivating factor in setting up the CSA.

    I don’t think so, because it was no immediate danger.

    I suggest you read the secession resolutions linked above.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  85. Congress approves removing statue of Supreme Court chief justice who wrote Dred Scott decision

    The House passed a bill Wednesday that would remove from public display at the U.S. Capitol a statue of Supreme Court Chief Justice Roger Taney, who wrote the 1857 Dred Scott decision, which defended slavery and denied the citizenship of Black Americans.

    The legislation, which the House passed by voice vote, declares that Taney’s authorship of the decision “renders a bust of his likeness unsuitable for the honor of display to the many visitors to the Capitol.”
    ………
    The measure directs the Joint Committee of Congress on the Library to remove Taney’s bust, which sits inside the entrance to the Old Supreme Court Chamber in the Capitol, and replace it with a bust of Thurgood Marshall, the court’s first Black justice.
    ……..

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  86. In related news, The Seafarers International Union has voted to remove George Washington’s bust from their union hall because pictorial evidence has been found that he once stood up in a moving rowboat.

    nk (991e24)

  87. This is what hypocrisy looks like for a person who proclaimed himself a “free speech absolutist”.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  88. Suspending Keith Olbermann form anything is simply a public service.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  89. Since both my crazy cousin and foolhardy friend have moved on from Trump, and now support DeSantis

    Several thoughts. First, there is no fanatic quite like a convert. Second, DeSantis is sane and competent, but his instincts lean toward demagoguery. Third, I hope that this does not turn out to be a repeat of 2016, where the loud guy drives out all thought. Lastly, whoever does win had got to spend some time preaching to the congregation, not just the choir.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  90. Sammy I get your 1916 take on the timing, but the Great Migration lasted from 1916 to 1970 and after WWII was when African American Great Migration progressed to the point where it flipped Detroit, Flint etc to African American majority cities. That flip also coincided with the great recession in Northern manufacturing that brought us the term Rust Belt

    steveg (98aa52)

  91. there is no fanatic quite like a convert

    Kevin M (1ea396) — 12/15/2022 @ 6:43 pm

    So true! My dad was a convert to Mormonism. (He was stationed in Utah while he was in the army, and went back to Utah after he got out.) He was faithful up to his death.

    My mom is a descendant of the Mormons who came to Utah in the 1800s, but stopped believing in the church years ago.

    norcal (862cdb)

  92. norcal, I had breakfast yesterday with a high school friend who converted as an adult, basically my marriage, and he’s an all-in Mormon. Growing up, he was pretty much unchurched and partied as much as any of my other buds.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  93. Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 12/15/2022 @ 8:12 pm

    The church has its benefits. It provides a ready-made social circle for those who need it.

    As for the four consumptive no-no’s (coffee, tea, alcohol, and tobacco), I like to say that Joseph Smith got one out of four right–two for people who prone to abuse alcohol.

    norcal (862cdb)

  94. While I’m on the subject, I thought I’d tell another mom story. Some of you may remember previous episodes.

    In the 1960s my family lived in the Bay Area. My mother decided to take a night class somewhere. When the teacher discovered that my mom was a Mormon, he asked her to share her religion with the class. My mother declined, and said she’d be willing to discuss the church with anyone who was interested after class.

    The teacher said, “Jesus was never afraid to share his teachings.”

    My mom replied, “Jesus didn’t say a word to King Herod.”

    The teacher then gave up.

    norcal (862cdb)

  95. This is what hypocrisy looks like for a person who proclaimed himself a “free speech absolutist”.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 12/15/2022 @ 6:13 pm

    Bull, this is giving the journoscum censorship fanatics who believe My Speech > Your Speech a taste of their own medicine. There’s no need for those who believe in free speech to extend that charity to those who not only don’t believe in it themselves, but will use it as a cudgel to hurt those they believe to be their enemies. They can choke on that “repressive tolerance” they like to indulge in, for once.

    Now it’s their turn to get a taste of what they’ve been dishing out, and lose their grip on their corporately curated safe space. If they don’t like it, they can flounce off to Mastodon or, as they liked to say in the Before Times, “Start your own social media company.” It’s not like their side doesn’t have Silicon Valley’s political and financial support, after all. Maybe Bill Kristol can get his white knight lefty financiers to front the cash.

    The same thing should apply to the EU officials telling Musk “obey our rules or else.” They shouldn’t get to take advantage of a platform that’s far less restrictive than the increasingly Orwellian speech codes in their own countries. Shut down their accounts, and when they screech, laugh in their face and then can their family members’ accounts, too. Make the restoral of those accounts contingent on their speech codes being permanently banned.

    Honestly, this is almost as sweet as Alexander Caraballo getting sent into orbit with his own words by Nancy Mase a couple days ago. Twitter has been a cesspit for coddling these mentally ill people and the “journalists” boosting their signal, and now the alligator has turned around and chomped them.

    One might hope that this sort of thing would encourage these people to modify their views on how valuable the principle of free speech actually is, that speech (or the lack thereof in support of their pet causes) does not equal violence, and that if they don’t like what’s being said they can log off or, better yet, put down the digital umbilicus and start interacting with actual human beings again. But knowing how smug, zealous, and full of themselves these scumbags are, I highly doubt it.

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d)

  96. Suspending Keith Olbermann form anything is simply a public service.

    Kevin M (1ea396) — 12/15/2022 @ 6:32 pm

    Yeeting his account alone was worth every penny of that $44 billion.

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d)

  97. Factory Working Orphan (bce27d) — 12/15/2022 @ 8:46 pm

    Thank you, for clarifying your advocacy of censorship by viewpoint, because the other guy did it. Really principled, FWO. Your “own the libs” mentality is in full flux.
    Twitter is a private company and they can censor how they please, but Musk set a marker in his proclamation that he’s a “free speech absolutist”, and now he’s showing everyone, now that he’s in charge, for the hypocrite that he is.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  98. And for those who may not know, these buttwipes got their accounts suspended because they linked to the offsite accounts of the guy who put Elon’s kid in danger by some stalker weirdo, and in Olbermann’s case, encouraged people to do so. If that was one of my kids, I’d give just as much of a rip about fake cries of *muh free speech muh hypocrisy* as Elon is giving.

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d)

  99. Thank you, for clarifying your advocacy of censorship by viewpoint, because the other guy did it. Really principled, FWO. Your “own the libs” mentality is in full flux.
    Twitter is a private company and they can censor how they please, but Musk set a marker in his proclamation that he’s a “free speech absolutist”, and now he’s showing everyone, now that he’s in charge, for the hypocrite that he is.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 12/15/2022 @ 9:09 pm

    I won’t tolerate intolerance. They’re getting what they deserve.

    And if you did to my kid what these guys did to Elon’s, you’d more than deserve it, too.

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d)

  100. These people have been warned that they won’t be in charge forever, and they might not like their own rules being turned on them. It’s not my fault they didn’t listen, and now they can reap the consequences of that lack of self-awareness for once.

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d)

  101. And calm down, Paul, it’s only for 7 days, although going without Twitter for a week for these people is probably going to be like a Colorado resident finding out all the pot shops have closed.

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d)

  102. like a Colorado resident finding out all the pot shops have closed

    I’m a marijuana virgin. Is that bad?

    norcal (862cdb)

  103. @95 She didn’t want to tell them about the 7 foot tall Zelph? Magic underware is another interesting topic also why the book of mormons calls black people filth. The day before the government was going to strip the mormon church of its tax exempt status for being a racist institution The head of the mormon church got a message from the god from the planet moroni that blacks were OK saving the church billions of tax dollars. Mitt romney and his father George did not serve in the military. Mormon missionaries were exempt from the draft Instead mitt went on a mormon mission to the working girls of paris and the french riviera. Mitt lead a pro-draft rally at Yale knowing mormons were except from the draft.

    asset (5ea559)

  104. asset,

    I either forgot or never learned about Zelph. Interesting story. Joseph Smith was sure a creative guy. He had to be to get people to follow him from New York to Ohio to Missouri to Illinois.

    The Book of Mormon doesn’t address black people, but it does reference Native Americans. It didn’t call Native Americans “filth” either, but does mention them being cursed with a dark skin.

    There is no “planet moroni” in Mormonism, but there is a planet called Kolob, where God supposedly resides.

    norcal (862cdb)

  105. I won’t tolerate intolerance. They’re getting what they deserve.
    And if you did to my kid what these guys did to Elon’s, you’d more than deserve it, too.

    Well, yes, you’ve already demonstrated your tribalist tendencies, immaturely excusing your hypocrisy with “well, they did it, too!”
    As for Elon’s kid, there’s no confirmation.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  106. Well, yes, you’ve already demonstrated your tribalist tendencies, immaturely excusing your hypocrisy with “well, they did it, too!”

    There’s nothing immature about holding your enemies to their own standards. Bending over while they use yours to harm you is the most useless kind of martyrdom, however.

    As for Elon’s kid, there’s no confirmation.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 12/15/2022 @ 10:03 pm

    Kruse is a leftist academic, so his credibility is already in the toilet.

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d)

  107. Every criticism the Twatter and journoscum left is flinging at Musk right now applies to them tenfold. It’s downright hilarious how every single one of them have done a 180 from just a year ago.

    They’ve never suffered the consequences of their actions in their entire careers, if not their lives, and they don’t know how to handle it.

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d)

  108. As for “calm down”, FWO, it’s not me who got triggered into a 366-rant to defend Musk’s hypocrisy.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  109. a taste of their own medicine

    The excuse every partisan nihilist makes for eschewing principles. You and your enemies will agree for eternity that the other guy started it. Tribalism is a he11uva drug.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  110. There’s nothing immature about holding your enemies to their own standards.

    It’s not that, FWO, it’s your whining about Twitter’s standards in the pre-Musk and then defending those very standards when your tribe holds the reins. Your double standards couldn’t be more apparent.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  111. The excuse every partisan nihilist makes for eschewing principles. You and your enemies will agree for eternity that the other guy started it. Tribalism is a he11uva drug.

    lurker (cd7cd4) — 12/15/2022 @ 10:14 pm

    Yes. It reminds me of the interminable recriminations and endless conflicts in the Middle East.

    norcal (862cdb)

  112. As for “calm down”, FWO, it’s not me who got triggered into a 366-rant to defend Musk’s hypocrisy.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 12/15/2022 @ 10:12 pm

    The excuse every partisan nihilist makes for eschewing principles. You and your enemies will agree for eternity that the other guy started it. Tribalism is a he11uva drug.

    lurker (cd7cd4) — 12/15/2022 @ 10:14 pm

    There’s no hypocrisy or nihilism in giving hypocrites the very thing they promote. The mere fact it’s hurting your lefty boos just makes it all the sweeter.

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d)

  113. Kruse is a leftist academic, so his credibility is already in the toilet.

    It was a cut-and-paste statement from LAPD, but I guess your tribalism is so ingrained that you can’t see basic stuff like that.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  114. It’s not that, FWO, it’s your whining about Twitter’s standards in the pre-Musk and then defending those very standards when your tribe holds the reins. Your double standards couldn’t be more apparent.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 12/15/2022 @ 10:15 pm

    No, I’m simply my enemies the same consideration they give me. They’re more than happy to see me and people like me dead in a ditch or begging for scraps, while brainwashing my kids to hate themselves for their skin color and believe they need to undergo radical surgery to change their gender in order to feel whole. And they gleefully cheer on the banning and censoring of anyone who points this out or resists their agenda.

    So whine about Elon’s supposed “hypocrisy” all you want, because it makes you just as complicit as the left is in suppressing people you don’t like.

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d)

  115. It was a cut-and-paste statement from LAPD, but I guess your tribalism is so ingrained that you can’t see basic stuff like that.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 12/15/2022 @ 10:17 pm

    Nothing a leftist does can be taken in good faith. Sort of like Aaron Rupar claiming that right-wingers make bad-faith arguments.

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d)

  116. Yes. It reminds me of the interminable recriminations and endless conflicts in the Middle East.

    norcal (862cdb) — 12/15/2022 @ 10:16 pm

    You mean the same sort of conflicts that have been going on for centuries around the world?

    Warfare is man’s natural state, and it doesn’t have to be fought with guns or swords to cause serious damage.

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d)

  117. And just so the neocon tribalists here are clear, Musk isn’t “my tribe.” He promotes and supports the same dumb globalist fantasias bandied about by the trash globalists at the World Economic Forum. His primary value to me is that he took away the left’s toy and is driving them insane with it by treating them like they treat everyone else.

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d)

  118. You mean the same sort of conflicts that have been going on for centuries around the world?

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d) — 12/15/2022 @ 10:26 pm

    That’s true for much of the world, but the democracies of the West have done rather well for some time now. We can keep it this way if we avoid the tribalism and histrionics so many countries suffer from.

    norcal (862cdb)

  119. No, I’m simply my enemies the same consideration they give me.

    Well, there’s your problem, FWO, that fellow Americans disagreeing with your political views are “enemies”. This is really no different from how hardline progressives have viewed conservatives over the years. Two sides of the same extremist coin, so thanks for confirming the horseshoe shape of the political spectrum.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  120. That’s true for much of the world, but the democracies of the West have done rather well for some time now. We can keep it this way if we avoid the tribalism and histrionics so many countries suffer from.

    norcal (862cdb) — 12/15/2022 @ 10:35 pm

    No, they simply formed their own mega-tribe (NATO), one which has gone to war twice in the last 25 years.

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d)

  121. Well, there’s your problem, FWO, that fellow Americans disagreeing with your political views are “enemies”.

    Yes, people who want to ban and censor me for my political views, and brainwash and hector my children, are my enemies. There’s nothing extremist about resisting that or making them live up to their own rules, or laughing at them when they don’t get their way or suffer the consequences of their actions.

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d)

  122. No, they simply formed their own mega-tribe (NATO), one which has gone to war twice in the last 25 years.

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d) — 12/15/2022 @ 10:38 pm

    NATO isn’t constantly nursing grievances and flinging poo. And, it didn’t use the same tactics its adversaries used.

    We’re better than that.

    norcal (862cdb)

  123. NATO isn’t constantly nursing grievances and flinging poo. And, it didn’t use the same tactics its adversaries used.

    We’re better than that.

    norcal (862cdb) — 12/15/2022 @ 10:45 pm

    These are distinctions without a difference. And no, we’re not better than that, as we’ve left the Middle East in far worse shape than it was 30 years ago.

    I’m sorry that resisting leftists bothers you guys so much, but if that’s the case, maybe you shouldn’t call yourselves conservatives.

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d)

  124. Two sides of the same extremist coin

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 12/15/2022 @ 10:38 pm

    Yes. The two extremes are each so ALARMED at each other that all they see is red.

    It’s an apocalyptic soap opera.

    norcal (862cdb)

  125. There’s no hypocrisy or nihilism in giving hypocrites the very thing they promote. The mere fact it’s hurting your lefty boos just makes it all the sweeter.

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d) — 12/15/2022 @ 10:17 pm

    Rejecting the constraints of principles, which you proudly, unapologetically do, is exactly nihilism. And I lean right, so if they’re my boos, that would make you my main squeeze. How sweet is that? Pucker up, buttercup.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  126. Yes, people who want to ban and censor me for my political views, and brainwash and hector my children, are my enemies.

    Do you have any specific examples where you personally have been banned or censored for your political views, or where your kids were hectored or experienced an attempted brainwashing? Or are you just yelling at clouds?

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  127. two for people who prone to abuse alcohol.

    There are plenty of Mormons in AA.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  128. Rejecting the constraints of principles, which you proudly, unapologetically do, is exactly nihilism.

    I suppose “caving into leftists on everything” is a principle, but hardly one to embrace. Same with martyrdom over a worldly concern.

    Do you have any specific examples where you personally have been banned or censored

    I said “people who want to,” Paul. Try some reading comprehension.

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d)

  129. The irony is that, as a Republican since Reagan’s first term, I’ve been banned at more conservative websites than the liberal variety, plus shadow-banned at Instapundit.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  130. Look, Elon’s problem is that there is an organized attack on him and Twitter, trying to get him to give up and given them back their toy. Whatever happens in the next month or two isn’t indicative of the path going forward.

    He has former employees in wild disregard of their non-disclosure and particularly the non-defamation agreements they signed upon getting their severance checks, former executives that have been shown to have used Twitter to further their political interests to the detriment of the company as a whole.

    Give Musk a break,. He is cleaning up the most amazing pile of crap, and still no pony, and he’s in no mood for these ankle biters. Let’s see how it all turns out.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  131. I said “people who want to,” Paul. Try some reading comprehension.

    Non-responsive to my question, but I expected that.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  132. By the way, FWO, do you think our host is a leftist-lover too?

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  133. There are plenty of Mormons in AA.

    Kevin M (1ea396) — 12/15/2022 @ 11:11 pm

    They would be the disobedient Mormons, unless their alcoholism preceded their Mormonism. 😉

    norcal (862cdb)

  134. Elon Musk says a lot of things. It’s not necessarily related to anything he will do.

    He’s like Trump that way.

    nk (5e7f68)

  135. Lurker and co. Calling FWO’s position Nihilistic is wrong.

    (FWO please forgive me if i get this wrong, I’m not trying to misrepresent you, or demean your views)

    I think FWO believes that Twitter is moderating speech for partisan reasons, lying about why and that people who argue otherwise are at best useful idiots for his enemies and probably just lying. Based on this coordinated bad faith campaign similar responses are justified until everyone recognizes it’s unsustainable. Worst case he can enjoy seeing the emotional distress he’s felt experienced by the people he hates.

    That’s not really nihilism.

    Nihilism is saying that Twitter isn’t very important. The right’s obsession with twitter is a pathetic expression of their feelings of grievance and persecution. The left’s over reaction is a silly expression of their entitlement. Twitter has changed from one type of pointless hell site to another type of pointless hell site and a year after it’s eventual collapse it will be missed no more then MySpace is.

    This is where I’m at btw. Twitter doesn’t matter very much and anyone that’s getting deeply emotional about it is a silly person.

    That’s not to say what’s happening now isn’t interesting or entertaining. I think it’s both. But I don’t think it’s important.

    Time123 (0b1a90)

  136. @131, Kevin, Musks problem’s are:

    1. He borrowed a lot of money to buy Twitter and the company revenue doesn’t cover the interest on that loans.
    2. His primary company, Tesla, has been losing value rapidly.
    3. He had no real plan on how to improve Twitter and appears to have spent very very little time thinking about moderation.
    4. He likes to make bold & exaggerated claims and has a mixed history of pulling them off (Cyber Truck & tesla semi are years behind schedule )
    5. He came in making bold claims about how he was a free speech absolutist and any legal speech would be allowed. This was a silly claim for him to make, many people said so, and a lot of people are having some fun mocking him for having to change courses so quickly.

    It remains to be seen whether turning Twitter into a tool of his vanity and wrath is going to help with any of the above. I like politics, legal stuff, and free speech stuff and the current twitter drama is related to that, but 9 of the top 10 trending on Twitter have nothing to do with it.

    Interesting to see how it turns out.

    Time123 (0b1a90)

  137. Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 12/15/2022 @ 11:20 pm

    “Twitter suspended the accounts of several high-profile journalists…” is sort of a hilarious way these stories begin.

    Sort of like lottery winner loses access to their Venmo account.

    Did the FBI, DHS, or a political campaign/administration request their suspension? Doesn’t seem so, but that doesn’t seem to matter to those crying about hypocrisy.

    Musk tailoring TOS on the fly to benefit him personally is hypocrisy, but not hypocrisy that matters much. Drawing a false equivalence to the tailoring of TOS to benefit one side politically during an election is the sort of hypocrisy that matters, and we’re seeing it among the usuals here.

    JF (61390d)

  138. Time, except for the high personal cost, it almost seems like Musk wants to drive Twitter into the graveyard. It’s also surprising how little he has added to the discussion of moderation and what might be a better way. He talks about starting over, but that misses that a lot has been learned over 15 years of social media and he doesn’t want to recognize and acknowledge that.

    For me, since I don’t use it or enjoy the constant gotcha that it promotes, I don’t much care how this shakes out. On one hand I generally like that Musk has taken on tough technical challenges with a goal of adding to the human condition (EV’s, batteries, space, etc). On the other, I wonder if the underlying Twitter problem is more human than technical….and that the technical side can’t tamp down what it’s unleashed. It’s tough to contain the human ego without sacrificing privacy (ie, would we be as big as a$$es if our name and town were attached to every post and tweet….though with folks like Olbermann, the answer is likely “yes” by design).

    We all love to have our say and expose others for missing the truth. That’s why we’re here. It’s useful to see how others come at a problem differently. But is any of it worthwhile in how we actually self govern? We now have two hardened camps with as many as half of the country in one or the other. The key characteristic is that they hate the other camp and enjoy a certain schadenfreude if the other camp suffers the tiniest “setback”.

    I think Paul’s nihilist point is that the only principle that is really inviolate is that of hating the other side. Both will abandon a position if they can score an eye gouge. Certainly both sides have their dogma…..the Left isn’t budging on abortion and the Right has no plan to give up on tightening immigration. So the nihilism ony goes so far. It’s normal politics….but now at the speed of light with hot takes driving the mob from fire to fire. I guess it’s sadly human to get caught up in this whack-a-mole….

    AJ_Liberty (6a18fd)

  139. FWO,

    I give you credit for engaging people. I’ve grown tired of those who pretend to be nominally on the Right, but only like people on the right when they support leftist policies.

    Most on the left espouse the following beliefs and it’s the game Paul’s playing above:

    When I am weaker than you, I ask for freedom because that is according to your principles.

    When I am stronger than you, I take away your freedoms because that is according to my principles.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  140. Time, except for the high personal cost, it almost seems like Musk wants to drive Twitter into the graveyard. It’s also surprising how little he has added to the discussion of moderation and what might be a better way. He talks about starting over, but that misses that a lot has been learned over 15 years of social media and he doesn’t want to recognize and acknowledge that.

    My guess is that three things are happening.
    1. It’s been a very long time since Musk had people tell him his ideas were bad. (It’s been an even longer time since he listened to them.)
    2. Musk agrees with the RW persecution story and thought ‘fixing’ that would fix twitter.
    3. Musk had no real plan for twitter and is making it up as he goes along.

    I think you’re right about the bulk of horseshoe right and left. Personally I don’t feel much connection with either party. The policy preferences I think will lead to freer & happier society aren’t really being championed and there is no ‘small government socially liberal fiscally conservative” party anymore.

    Time123 (0b1a90)

  141. Regarding claims of hypocrisy of Musk temp banning those journalists…

    C’mon guys, that’s weaksauce.

    You can hold a position where YOU are a “free speech absolutist” AND run a social media company slightly different than your personal position. Especially since Musk have never claimed, to my knowledge, that he’d RUN Twitter in such fashion.

    Furthermore, the guy had a stalker event involving his child, so please consider extending some grace here for a father doing what he can to protect his family.

    whembly (05eb5c)

  142. JF (61390d) — 12/16/2022 @ 6:36 am

    I don’t see how your comment is a reply to mine, JF, because I didn’t say or link to anyone who said “Twitter suspended the accounts of several high-profile journalists…”, but I generally agree with your comment.

    NJRob (eb56c3) — 12/16/2022 @ 7:15 am

    I’ll just note that your comment about me is full of sh-t, false and dishonest, Rob. Par for your course.

    To be clear, I’ve said more than once–in the pre-Musk and Musk eras–that Twitter is a private company and can censor and delete commenters as they please, as is their right under the First Amendment. That’s called one standard, Rob, unlike the double standards you keep rationalizing in defense of your right-wing tribalist views.

    If they violate their own terms of service with inconsistency and incompetency, so be it. It may be dumb to do so, but it’s not illegal. They’re just making it easier for competitors to step in, and Trump’s “Truth” Social and Post are examples.

    The problem with Musk is that he alluded that he’d fix their inconsistent incompetent way of doing things. As Lurker noted via Patterico, Musk said this only last month.

    My commitment to free speech extends even to not banning the account following my plane, even though that is a direct personal safety risk.

    When did it become controversial to hold someone accountable for his own statements?

    AJ, to clarify, it wasn’t me who brought up nihilism, but FWO’s lack of any guiding principles is apparent. “They did it, too!” isn’t a traditionally conservative tenet.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  143. If Musk destorys Twitter, it does cost him a lot of money and will likely get him in trouble with his investment partners. Society might end up benefitting, though.

    It’s instructive how much the progressive side of things viewed Twitter as their own property and resent a different viewpoint being applied to banning and enforcement. Gotta say, I like those unpleasent people being given a dose of their own unpleasentness. That’s human nature — and part of the reason Twitter has become a Hellscape.

    I dn’t see this as a governmental thing to fix — and not something I want to see them try. The whole Twitter-files thing has mostly bored me. (I really don’t care that the banning of Donald Trump may have violated a rule. It was social hygene that kept things calm at a volatile moment.) Shadowbanning — because it is so sneaky and underhanded — bothers me more, and I’d like to see more about it if we are to have more Twitter releases.

    Appalled (03f53c)

  144. He talks about starting over, but that misses that a lot has been learned over 15 years of social media and he doesn’t want to recognize and acknowledge that

    Well, it seems that, in the 2020 campaign season at least, Twitter ignored everything it had learned. From the facts it actually suppressed, to its claimed justification for banning Trump, it was a total clown show.

    The main difference between then and now was that the press actually cares what it is doing now.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  145. “The whole Twitter-files thing has mostly bored me. (I really don’t care that the banning of Donald Trump may have violated a rule. It was social hygene that kept things calm at a volatile moment.) Shadowbanning — because it is so sneaky and underhanded — bothers me more, and I’d like to see more about it if we are to have more Twitter releases.”

    I agree with this, especially the shadow-banning distinction. Whatever the rules and implementation, it should be transparent. Someone should understand if their tweets are dropping into a hole…and then vote with their feet if they are dissatisfied.

    For me, the signal-to-noise ratio on Twitter appears too low. Maybe it depends on how you use it and who you choose to follow. However, I like ideas to marinate, be passed around for some private editing, before being pushed onto the public plane. A lot of what shows up is fast…but sorely under-cooked. And then we have news cycles dedicated to dissecting garbage and the predictable over-reaction. It just seems like we are wasting a lot of collective time.

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  146. Do you have any specific examples where you personally have been banned or censored

    I do. I was banned, completely out of the blue, by WaPo’s comment police. No warning. No prior suspension. No reason given except a general claim I had violated the ToS. No offending comment identified (and I cannot imagine one that would be).

    They said that I could appeal, so I appealed, only to be told that they really didn’t allow appeals. To this day it rankles. Near as I can tell my mistake was pointing out that an editorial was silly wrong, violating the secret no-backtalk rule.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  147. Whembly, he absolutely did say he was going to run twitter as a free speech absolutist. He said he’d allow all legal speech. he specifically used the account that tracks his private jet as an example of that.

    Again, his actions are both legal and understandable. They’re just at odds with his previous statements in ways that people predicted would need to happen.

    Moderation is hard, edge cases exist, and it’s impossible too come up with black and white rules that govern everything.

    You can assert that Trump was kicked off twitter when he didn’t violate the written policy. But no one who wrote the policy thought about what to do if the President of the USA tries to steal the Presidency and uses Twitter as communication tool in furtherance of that plan.

    Time123 (2f6145)

  148. I dn’t see this as a governmental thing to fix — and not something I want to see them try. The whole Twitter-files thing has mostly bored me. (I really don’t care that the banning of Donald Trump may have violated a rule. It was social hygene that kept things calm at a volatile moment.)

    the government should absolutely stay out of this. In fact, because there are legitimate regulatory needs with Musks other business any comments about government over site of his speech create a potential for suspicion that valid regulatory oversight is part of an attempt to compell speech.

    The RW obsession with silly conspiracy theories, low evidentiary requirements for confirmation and their desire to do unto others as they hallucinate has been done unto them makes this even more concerning.

    Time123 (2f6145)

  149. Both Tesla and SpaceX were at death’s door before they finally succeeded.

    SpaceX had three successive rocket failures in 2008 and was at the point where if the next launch failed, they were done.

    Tesla’s first production year of the Roadster (2008-9) was hampered by capital issues, being down to their last $10 million at one point and needing a capital infusion to get Roadster production underway.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  150. “Furthermore, the guy had a stalker event involving his child, so please consider extending some grace here for a father doing what he can to protect his family.”

    Musk is either lying or exaggerating about this “event”.

    Davethulhu (02f479)

  151. “From the facts it actually suppressed, to its claimed justification for banning Trump, it was a total clown show.”

    I don’t get my facts from Twitter. It deals mainly with opinion and spin that you can get anywhere on the web. Perhaps it’s a good wakeup call for political parties to understand that Twitter is a private company and, absent a change in the law, it can act political. Of course when it does, it risks exposure and losing customers. That sounds like the free market. I’m ok with that.

    There was just not an under-exposure of Trump or Biden. If the Trump campaign had been a little smarter about early voting, they could have won the election. But who wants to grouse about that……

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  152. The RW obsession with silly conspiracy theories, low evidentiary requirements for confirmation and their desire to do unto others as they hallucinate has been done unto them makes this even more concerning.

    Conspiracy theories are a problem with both extremes. Probably as a function of the degree of extremism.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  153. I don’t get my facts from Twitter.

    There are lots of places I don’t “get my facts” from, but that does not mean that debasing information sources is a good thing. Twitter is intended as a place for unfiltered information from non-official sources and the user is expected to tell the Shinola from the other stuff. I see no reason for Twitter management, let alone government, to interfere in this process.

    It is claimed that Twitter is concerned that the advertisers not be scared off, but of all the reasons given, that seems the weakest one as far as the political filters applied in 2020, or for banning Trump. Advertisers don’t what to sponsor the anti-semite channel or the send-blacks-to-Africa bunch. Nor do they want to sponsor the kill-police fanatics. But Trump got nearly half the vote; there are plenty of car buyers who voted for Trump and if its fear of offending #neverTrump, banning Trump offended far more people.

    So, sure, certain words or topics should lead to bans, just as they would here. But blocking information because management doesn’t agree with it, or because someone at the White House (either party) told them to, isn’t in the interest of Twitter’s users, their advertisers or their investors.

    What’s going on right now at Twitter is Musk trying to get a handle on stuff while an organized attack on Twitter’s viability in under way, as the Left’s attitude of “if we can’t have it, no one can” is farmed out to the digital brownshirts of the Left.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  154. “What’s going on right now at Twitter is Musk trying to get a handle on stuff while an organized attack on Twitter’s viability in under way, as the Left’s attitude of “if we can’t have it, no one can” is farmed out to the digital brownshirts of the Left.”

    This is nonsense. Musk is clearly in way over his head, and has fired everyone who could have helped him. He’s bouncing from crisis to crisis, all of them created by his own incompetence.

    There is no organized attack, Twitter’s woes are all self-inflicted.

    Davethulhu (02f479)

  155. Off-topic:

    Look who’s waiting in the wings for change in Iran: Reza Pahlavi.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  156. There is no organized attack, Twitter’s woes are all self-inflicted.

    I could respond to this, but I fear for the site’s rules.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  157. @148 Time123 (2f6145) — 12/16/2022 @ 9:41 am

    Okay, I’ll take your word for it.

    He does need to be consistent with these sort of policies.

    Frankly, I just think we need to keep in mind that he really didn’t know what he had until he has the keys to the Twitter kingdom. So, any prior desires/plans before getting the keys would likely change, and folks just need to understand that.

    whembly (d116f3)

  158. If Musk is honestly trying to get a handle on stuff, he’s doing it in a *terrible* way. He started by firing most of the people with deep knowledge of how the systems work, and now he’s trying to make changes without anyone really having an understanding of how to make the changes.

    There’s a bug that allows people whose accounts have been suspended to still participate in twitter spaces, and his reaction on discovering that was to *shut twitter spaces down entirely* — because the team that understood the code well enough to just fix the bug is no longer employed at twitter.

    Furthermore, twitter *missed a payroll date in europe* (probably because the people doing that work were fired) and isn’t meeting its legal obligations to its laid off employees (including not paying the severance promised).

    There may very well be an organized attack, but far more damage is being done by the terrible decisions Musk is making about how to run the company. I expect it to be *rightly* sued into bankruptcy within a year.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  159. @151:

    Musk is either lying or exaggerating about this “event”.

    Davethulhu (02f479) — 12/16/2022 @ 9:53 am

    The NY Post put up the video Elon took of the guy climbing on the car.
    For f’s sake…

    whembly (d116f3)

  160. “The NY Post put up the video Elon took of the guy climbing on the car.”

    Have you actually watched the video? It’s of some guy sitting in his car.

    Davethulhu (02f479)

  161. Frankly, I just think we need to keep in mind that he really didn’t know what he had until he has the keys to the Twitter kingdom. So, any prior desires/plans before getting the keys would likely change, and folks just need to understand that.

    I agree he didn’t know what he was doing when he agreed to buy it. Which is a hilarious burn on him. But if he wants a break for being a total noob at this he needs to admit it and ask. Until then he’s just another super rich blowhard whose talking a bigger game then he can pull off.

    It’s the last part that makes me want to mock him.

    I like the Koch brothers and have nothing against them or bezos or gates or buffet. It’s the blowhard part that makes me want to laugh at him.

    Time123 (6d013e)

  162. I expect it to be *rightly* sued into bankruptcy within a year.

    People suing Musk/Twitter should expect a longer timeframe than that.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  163. Musk’s reasons regarding firing the employees who know the code seems to be that he didn’t trust them not to RF it themselves. This probably says that he should never have bought it, but it also relates to management’s hostility to the buyout and how they prepared the employees for the handover. From all accounts, Musk inherited a staff predisposed to hate him.

    Now, remember that Musk got cold feet during this process and was forced by Twitter’s investors to conclude the deal. What all his reasons were is hard to determine, but one of the issues he raised publicly was that Twitter’s management had misrepresented quite a few things about Twitter’s health and user count.

    I think it was unwise for Musk to fire so many of the technical staff, but it is unclear what level of hostility he encountered or whether there was a demand by employees for an exit. A lot of technical folks would have just received a substantial capital gains windfall and had lined up new jobs long before the sale consummated. They were just waiting for the expected severance package.

    Few technical employees would have problems finding new jobs — these are not the victims that some would make them. I doubt a single former Twitter technical employee is currently unemployed.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  164. 148. Time123 (2f6145) — 12/16/2022 @ 9:41 am

    But no one who wrote the policy thought about what to do if the President of the USA tries to steal the Presidency and uses Twitter as communication tool in furtherance of that plan.

    He wasn’t doing that any more when he was banned.

    His account was suspended, then reinstated, and then banned again.

    It was on the grounds of promoting violence or something like that.

    I thought it was over the tweet saying he would not attend the inauguration, which was being interpreted by others, as meaning they should disrupt it.

    But apparently they didn’t use that or had started earlier

    https://blog.twitter.com/en_us/topics/company/2020/suspension

    On January 8, 2021, President Donald J. Trump Tweeted:

    “The 75,000,000 great American Patriots who voted for me, AMERICA FIRST, and MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN, will have a GIANT VOICE long into the future. They will not be disrespected or treated unfairly in any way, shape or form!!!”

    Shortly thereafter, the President Tweeted:

    “To all of those who have asked, I will not be going to the Inauguration on January 20th.”

    Due to the ongoing tensions in the United States, and an uptick in the global conversation in regards to the people who violently stormed the Capitol on January 6, 2021, these two Tweets must be read in the context of broader events in the country and the ways in which the President’s statements can be mobilized by different audiences, including to incite violence, as well as in the context of the pattern of behavior from this account in recent weeks. After assessing the language in these Tweets against our Glorification of Violence policy, we have determined that these Tweets are in violation of the Glorification of Violence Policy and the user @realDonaldTrump should be immediately permanently suspended from the service.

    Doesn’t really make sense, does it? (except as a way of stopping people from performing exegesis upon Trump’s tweets, and even then it should have been temporary, and it should have been noted as an exception to the rules because of what some people were saying he meant.)

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  165. > I doubt a single former Twitter technical employee is currently unemployed.

    I find that premise unlikely — it’s only been slightly over a month, with thanksgiving in the middle of it, and all of big tech is currently either under a hiring freeze or a serious slowdown — and the ones that aren’t typically experience a massive hiring slowdown in nov + dec because of employee time off making it hard to schedule interviews.

    getting interviewed and through an interview cycle in a month during the holiday season is unlikely even for the top performers.

    > these are not the victims that some would make them.

    the people who were fired in violation of european labor laws definitely are victims, as are the people who were promised severance that hasn’t been delivered on.

    granted, they’re better off than a lot of people whose employers ignore labor law, because they’re technical employees so they’ve been well paid and should have a fair amount saved, and their plight isn’t really comparable to the plight of the person whose wages are stolen by fraudulent hour tracking practices, and trying to portray them as the same thing is misleading. And yet, twitter under Musk has been massively noncompliant with labor law, across the board.

    > I think it was unwise for Musk to fire so many of the technical staff,

    It was so seriously unwise that for me it calls into question the safety of all of his other projects. That is: if he’s this bad at managing *twitter*, how can I trust that his management of Tesla, or Neurolink, is any better? I’ve seen stories for years about Tesla safety being questionable and about Tesla not really addressing it — and based on his behavior at Twitter, I now assume that the culture at Tesla is of ignoring safety complaints and punishing whistleblowers because they might make Tesla look bad. That was *not* my assumption three months ago.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  166. Twitter = Eastern Flight 401.
    Twitterers = passengers & crew.
    Musk = light bulb.

    The Florida Everglades awaits…

    DCSCA (bde8fb)

  167. Elon Musk makes quick decisions, but he also quickly reverses them, and he probably figures that’s the quickest way for him to get to the right decision, so he keeps on doing it.

    He also has a slight tendency to credit explanations that he should realize are patently wrong, like about Paul Pelosi. That’s because he doesn’t quite trust the conventional media. But he should realize in what ways not to trust it.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  168. “Twitter is intended as a place for unfiltered information from non-official sources and the user is expected to tell the Shinola from the other stuff.”

    I’m not at all sure what the answer is to moderation. My gut sees a problem of trust and toxicity if only illegal material is edited off. Everyone agrees that spam, most scams, and some level of abuse must also be patrolled. It gets harder when it gets to whacky conspiracy stuff and racist banter that doesn’t quite reach the abuse level. If Twitter has a moral and economic reason for eliminating spam, could they not also have a moral duty to stop conspiracy theories that can spread and metastasize on their platform? Does Twitter want to be associated with the next attack on the Capitol or the next explosion of preventable pandemic deaths? It’s a serious moral question. If we ‘re fine with Musk protecting himself….which I am….I’m not sure how you legitimately prevent it from making other editorial calls on matters it sees as significant. Now there’s the rub, I want transparency….and I want people to know when the algorithm is throttling their presence. I’m not pretending that any of this is easy…or else lots of good ideas would be percolating forward. Algorithms can only be so good. People can only be so good. Transparency allows for better decision making.

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  169. 159. aphrael (4c4719) — 12/16/2022 @ 10:36 am

    There’s a bug that allows people whose accounts have been suspended to still participate in twitter spaces,

    That’s not a bug. Twitter Spaces (audio Twitter) just failed to include the possibility of banning people, or anning on spaces it was independent from banning from Twitter itself.

    and his reaction on discovering that was to *shut twitter spaces down entirely* — because the team that understood the code well enough to just fix the bug is no longer employed at twitter.

    Maybe because it could not be done immediately. He’ll probably restore it. It probably does not require special skill to carry over banning or suspension from regular Twitter to Twitter Spaces, if that is what he wants to do but he maybe shouldn’t do that.

    If there’s nobody who can do anything like he wants to Twitter Spaces,
    then there’s nobody at Twitter who knows how to change anything about it, and Musk probably did not leave himself with nobody able to modify the code. Unless he was not even aware that Twitter Spaces existed.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  170. 147. Kevin M (1ea396) — 12/16/2022 @ 9:35 am

    I was banned, completely out of the blue, by WaPo’s comment police. No warning. No prior suspension. No reason given except a general claim I had violated the ToS. No offending comment identified (and I cannot imagine one that would be).

    They said that I could appeal, so I appealed, only to be told that they really didn’t allow appeals. To this day it rankles. Near as I can tell my mistake was pointing out that an editorial was silly wrong, violating the secret no-backtalk rule.

    This proves that the Washington Post was dishonest.

    They had something that they didn’t want disagreed with, and if they would have told you what it was, that would have given away the secret.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  171. There don’t have to be a lot of guardrails to moderate Twitter.
    1. Kick out the Nazis who demonstrate their Nazi beliefs
    2. Kick out those who make physical threats or incite violence.
    3. Most importantly, ban any foreign state actors posing as ordinary Twitter types, especially the ones hostile to America.
    4. For the sketchy accounts such as outspoken racists and propagandists, put warning labels on ’em.
    5. Have a real and transparent appeal process.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  172. > probably did not leave himself with nobody able to modify the code.

    That’s not the issue, although it’s possible depending on how their codebase is structured that nobody at the company right now has the necessary *permissions* to modify this part of the code — but that, while annoying and funny, is an easier problem to solve.

    The issue is that he doesn’t have anyone who knows that part of the code well enough to know how to modify it in a way that will achieve the desired result without unintended and unwanted side effects.

    That’s a solvable problem given enough time and people to throw at it — they’ll just learn the code.

    The problem *right now* is there are so few people left in the organization that anyone taking time to learn the code to do this is *not* doing something else that’s urgent. Firing as many people as he did created a situation where everything takes longer and nothing can be done without sacrificing something else.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  173. > I was banned, completely out of the blue, by WaPo’s comment police. No warning. No prior suspension.

    I’ve banned people from the subreddit I moderate without prior warning or prior suspension, usually because they show up and immediately violate the rules (either by posting links to pirated material or by being abusive to community members) and when I look at their comment history it becomes clear that talking to them will not achieve the desired result.

    I’ve also spent months slowly helping people understand the rules and improve their compliance with them.

    Effective moderation requires the power to do both.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  174. 137.

    He likes to make bold & exaggerated claims and has a mixed history of pulling them off (Cyber Truck & tesla semi are years behind schedule )

    Musk created – on a whim – the Borer company, to build tunnels.

    His first problem was that the biggest obstacles to building tunnels quickly were legal and bureaucratic.

    The only major tunnel he succeeded in building was in Las Vegas, where the ground is easier to drill in, and he had to have it licensed as an amusement park ride. Like as if Disney built an extra subway line in New York.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-04-09/musk-s-las-vegas-tunnel-is-like-a-tesla-amusement-park-ride

    Musk’s Las Vegas Tunnel Is Like a Tesla Amusement Park Ride

    Boring Co.’s 1.7-mile loop, nicknamed the Rainbow Road, could one day extend to the city’s airport….

    …. That’s how Calabrese, 27, ended up driving people underneath the Las Vegas convention center on Friday in one of the first public peeks at the so-called “Loop” Musk has constructed there.

    The company’s first big commercial project was set for unveiling at Las Vegas’s glitzy annual Consumer Electronics Show this January, but the Covid-19 pandemic got in the way. Now, it’s ready for its first big deployment at the World of Concrete event from June 8-10, city tourism officials said Friday.

    https://www.deseret.com/2022/6/20/23173023/elon-musk-las-vegas-loop-underground-tesla-tunnel

    The Las Vegas Loop, when completed, will be a 29-mile loop with 51 stations that web underneath Las Vegas, according to The Boring Company.

    Customers will be able to ride the loop from the airport, to Allegiant Stadium and, of course, to the Strip.

    The company’s website claims the loop will be able to get people from the Harry Reid Airport to the Las Vegas Convention Center in five minutes, for only $10.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  175. > The RW obsession with silly conspiracy theories, low evidentiary requirements for confirmation and their desire to do unto others as they hallucinate has been done unto them makes this even more concerning.

    All of this.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  176. > They’re more than happy to see me and people like me dead in a ditch or begging for scraps,

    And many of your allies are more than happy to see me and people like me dead in a ditch or begging for scraps. Should I treat you the way they treat me?

    aphrael (4c4719)

  177. Russia is doing crazy things that won’t work.

    The latest thing I read is that somebody who writes for the Wall Street Journal and is married to a woman from Russia, had been in communication with is mother-in-law, or her daughter was, arguing about the war. Not long ago her daughter got sick and was in the hospital.

    Russia’s something (secret police?) contacted the mother and told her they did it.

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/from-russia-with-intimidation-kbg-fsb-putin-social-media-monitoring-suppression-dissent-mother-in-law-11671112999

    When the Ukraine war started, my wife took to rebutting the Facebook posts of Mr. Putin’s chief propagandist, Maria Zakharova. Facebook is banned in Russia, but Ms. Zakharova used it to make Moscow’s case to the world. My wife, from the safety of our Connecticut home, dared to note that Bucha and other possible war crimes did indeed occur. I too wrote articles that could be deemed critical of Mr. Putin’s invasion.

    At the same time, we continued to talk to the other Maria, my wife’s mother, via Skype even though that too is banned. Maria has an eighth-grade education and is a former hospital janitor—hardly a target I thought the security services would monitor. My wife and I joked about the FSB listening in to our calls. We aren’t laughing anymore.

    My wife recently underwent significant surgery. After the fact, she mentioned this with her mother on a Skype call. Shortly thereafter, Maria received a phone call on her Moscow landline from a man who didn’t identify himself.

    “We know your daughter has a medical condition,” he said. “This is retribution for her traitorous behavior toward Russia.” Then he hung up.

    I can’t say for sure, but who else beyond the FSB would conduct such an operation? Maria was too scared to call us. Instead she phoned an intermediary, who relayed the details and said Maria was putting a halt to our conversations and didn’t support traitors….

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  178. Major news media came close to echoing a press release about nuclear fusion.

    It doesn’t mean anything!

    It’s not getting more energy power than putting it in because they needed to spew out far more laser power than actually hit the pellet. Not to mention creating the pellet. Which consisted only of deuterium and tritium. Not to mention building the equipment.

    Now amybe they could do cold fusion. Take a lot of hydrogen, combine it with lithium, charge it with electricity, and get some antineutrinos to hit it (I think that’s why it’s so random) , creating neutrons.

    It sets off a chain reaction that results in a fire. We had one now in New York where e-bikes (and old evidence) was stored

    More:

    https://news.newenergytimes.net/2022/01/08/lithium-lithium-everywhere-and-none-to-use-for-fusion-reactors

    They have known that, in the laboratory, the lithium-6 isotope can be bombarded with neutrons to make tritium. But nobody knows whether this will work well enough in a reactor.

    Now you see you get the neutrons from the combination of the electrons and the protons (hydrogen ions)

    https://arstechnica.com/science/2012/03/nuclear-lightening/#:~:text=In%20a%20surprising%20turn%20up,energy%20photons%20(gamma%20rays).

    In a surprising turn up, the new data show that up to 5000 neutrons per cubic meter are produced every second by lightning strikes.

    This is very high, and not very compatible with the alternate explanation, neutron production by high energy photons (gamma rays). To generate the number of neutrons the researchers observe would take about 10 million gamma ray photons m-3s-1. Unfortunately, lightning strikes only generate a tiny fraction of that.

    At the moment, this research is not of Earth-shattering importance. But it does point to things going on thunderstorms that we just don’t know about yet

    I think the missing factor – what you need besides protons and electrons is antineutrinos. If you add lithium, you get cold fusion/fission -but it burns itself out before too high temperatures are reached.

    Cold fusion is a constant problem with lithium ion batteries.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  179. Trump’s promotion of a big announcement would have made more sense if he had announced hew as commissioning a movie, maybe an animated one, or testifying before the Jan 6 committee.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  180. 1. Kick out the Nazis who demonstrate their Nazi beliefs

    Can you tell me why other eliminationist -isms should be allowed? Maoists are not Nazis.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  181. @174: How does this apply to me or the situation I mentioned?

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  182. The RW obsession with silly conspiracy theories, low evidentiary requirements for confirmation and their desire to do unto others as they hallucinate has been done unto them makes this even more concerning.

    I agree with all of this EXCEPT that the same is true of the far Left. Most prominent there is the 9/11 Truthers, but there are others.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  183. Can you tell me why other eliminationist -isms should be allowed? Maoists are not Nazis.

    I’ll say it’s open for debate, but Maoists are right up there, or down there so to speak, given the tens of millions Mao killed. Stalinists, too.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  184. Cold fusion is a constant problem with lithium ion batteries.

    No, getting wet is a constant problem with lithium. Cold fusion, if it happened (it doesn’t), would be a power source.

    get some antineutrinos to hit it

    Good luck with that. Neutrinos tend not to hit anything. Ever. A light-year of lead would have a 50/50 chance of stopping a neutrino.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  185. When working for a Japanese firm years ago, spent time w/t engineers and eventually asked why so many unnecessary flashing lights, beeps and sounds in their gadgets- they just eat up battery power. And the engineers responded w/a sly smile, ‘Of course they do nothing. But Americans are easily enticed with meaningless lights and noises. The bells and whistles sell the products. And we make the batteries as well.”

    A generation of shallow-minds w/short attention spans:

    Twitter’s origins lie in a “daylong brainstorming session” held by board members of the podcasting company Odeo. Jack Dorsey, then an undergraduate student at New York University, introduced the idea of an individual using an SMS service to communicate with a small group. The original project code name for the service was twttr, an idea that Williams later ascribed to Noah Glass, inspired by Flickr and the five-character length of American SMS short codes. The decision was also partly due to the fact that the domain twitter.com was already in use, and it was six months after the launch of twttr that the crew purchased the domain and changed the name of the service to Twitter. The developers initially considered “10958” as the service’s short code for SMS text messaging, but later changed it to “40404” for “ease of use and memorability”. Work on the project started on March 21, 2006, when Dorsey published the first Twitter message at 12:50 p.m. PST (UTC−08:00): “just setting up my twttr”.

    The tipping point for Twitter’s popularity was the 2007 South by Southwest Interactive (SXSWi) conference. During the event, Twitter usage increased from 20,000 tweets per day to 60,000. “The Twitter people cleverly placed two 60-inch plasma screens in the conference hallways, exclusively streaming Twitter messages,” remarked Newsweek’s Steven Levy. “Hundreds of conference-goers kept tabs on each other via constant twitters. Panelists and speakers mentioned the service, and the bloggers in attendance touted it.” Reaction at the conference was highly positive. Twitter staff received the festival’s Web Award prize with the remark “we’d like to thank you in 140 characters or less. And we just did!” …we came across the word “twitter”, and it was just perfect. The definition was “a short burst of inconsequential information”, and “chirps from birds”. And that’s exactly what the product was.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twitter

    DCSCA (ac30cb)

  186. So, the EU threatens to block Twitter for doing things that the EU disapproves of. How is this different than what Iran of Russia does?

    And, more to the point, what is the future for free speech on social media when some countries feel that government SHOULD control speech, or use force to get speech controlled by proxy?

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  187. @186:

    When I was young, all LEDs were red. Why? LEDs gave off light at the low end of the visible spectrum (and a a lot of infrared, too). Then someone came up with a way to get other colors, notably blue and white, by coating the inside of a casing with material that absorbed LED light and re-emitted other frequencies.

    And of course, blue LEDs were flashier and cooler, so that was what everyone used even when it wasn’t needed. In the end it was a boon to no one except the makers of black electrical tape.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  188. SMS itself was developed to use wasted signalling-control bandwidth on cell-phone networks such as GSM. Separate from the talk bands, the control signals were low datarate and often sending null data when no conversations were occurring. Inserting short messages (initially 128 characters) into these unused periods seemed a free way to offer a new money-making service.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  189. > The RW obsession with silly conspiracy theories, low evidentiary requirements for confirmation and their desire to do unto others as they hallucinate has been done unto them makes this even more concerning.
    All of this.
    aphrael (4c4719) — 12/16/2022 @ 11:56 am

    LOL you’re right, trump colluded with Russia to throw the 2016 election, and paid for Russian bounties on US troops, Carter Page was a Russian mole, the Steele Dossier is fact, Covid came from a wet market, the Hunter laptop is Russian misinformation, and Twitter didn’t shadowban conservatives

    JF (1b33e6)

  190. Twitter = Eastern Flight 401.
    Twitterers = passengers & crew.
    Musk = light bulb.

    The Florida Everglades awaits…

    DCSCA (bde8fb) — 12/16/2022 @ 11:14 am

    Now do Air France Flight 447

    urbanleftbehind (4a67b5)

  191. The xkcd take on the fusion breakthrough: https://xkcd.com/2710

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  192. @190: But these are all things that the MSM believes are true. How can they be conspiracy theories?

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  193. I recognize the irony of us old blog commenting types bellyaching about Twitter. We do much the same thing as happens in Twitter threads in these comment sections, though on a far smaller scale. And the same interpersonal nastiness erupts — even though our moderators do a good job of keeping it under control.

    Appalled (b072d7)

  194. Trump cards sell out. No one ever lost a nickel underestimating the intelligence of the american public P.T. Barnum. How many did ya buy?

    asset (70a83e)

  195. You just can’t trust what you see on Twitter. For example, this post about a non-binary DoE official (in charge of the nation’s spent nuclear fuel) being fired for theft.

    When I checked the WaPo and NY Times to verify, there was no mention of “Sam Brinton” at all. And if they don’t report it, it’s obviously false.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  196. All those attacking Elon for protecting his family had no problem with the media and leftist companies “fortifying the election” to ensure Trump lost. Never forget that.

    NJRob (5fbb5f)

  197. That may be, but Trump lost it all on his onw when he told his supporters to only vote in person on Election day, giving the Democrats several extra weeks of getting out the vote.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  198. Breaking-

    Jan. 6 panel to vote on urging DOJ to prosecute Trump on at least three criminal charges
    ……..
    The report that the select panel is expected to consider on Monday afternoon, described to POLITICO by two people familiar with its contents, reflects some recommendations from a subcommittee that evaluated potential criminal referrals. Among the charges that subcommittee proposes for Trump: 18 U.S.C. 2383, insurrection; 18 U.S.C. 1512(c), obstruction of an official proceeding; and 18 U.S.C. 371, conspiracy to defraud the United States government.
    ……….

    Rip Murdock (394f29)

  199. Jan. 6 panel to vote on urging DOJ to prosecute Trump on at least three criminal charges

    Better start making that prison uniform trading card now. It will sell like hotcakes!

    norcal (862cdb)

  200. Breaking: Jan. 6 Panel Plans Vote on Referring Trump for Insurrection, Other Criminal Charges

    WASHINGTON — The House committee investigating the Jan. 6 attack on the Capitol plans on Monday to vote on issuing criminal referrals against former President Donald J. Trump for insurrection and at least two other charges, according to a person familiar with the matter who was not authorized to discuss it.

    It had been widely expected the panel would recommend charges against Mr. Trump for obstructing an official proceeding of Congress and conspiracy to defraud the United States. The panel’s members had already argued in federal court that they believed it was likely that he committed those two felonies. But the addition of an accusation of insurrection was a new development.

    Why is this important? Because the Electoral Count Act amends Section 15 of Title 3 of the USC to read, in part:

    15(c)…

    (2) GROUNDS FOR OBJECTIONS.—To raise an
    objection under this subsection, a Member must sub
    mit such objection pursuant to the requirements of
    subsection (a)(5) and specify in writing the number
    of electoral votes objected to and one of the following
    grounds for the objection: …

    (C) One or more of the State’s electors
    are constitutionally ineligible for the office of
    elector under article II, section I, clause 2 or
    section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment of the
    Constitution of the United States, except if a
    State has replaced the ineligible elector with an
    eligible elector pursuant to the authority de
    ecribed in section 4 of this title prior to the
    casting of electoral votes by its electors, then it
    shall not be in order to cite the initial appoint15
    ment of the ineligible elector as grounds for
    raising an objection under this subparagraph.

    (D) One or more of the State’s electoral
    votes were cast for a candidate who is ineligible
    for the office of President or Vice President
    pursuant to …

    (iii) section 3 of the Fourteenth
    Amendment to the Constitution of the
    United States.

    So, USC 15(c)(2)(D)(iii) would allow Congress to overturn a valid electoral vote for someone who, in some undefined way, is in conflict with the insurrection clause of the 14th Amendment. It would be best if that was due to an actual conviction, but the Act doesn’t actually insist on it, just that Congress claim it so.

    The fact that such an overturning of an electoral victory is EXACTLY the horror of horrors that trump supposedly plotted in secret. That Congress is plotting this in the open apparently makes it OK.

    https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/8873

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  201. Rip Murdock (394f29) — 12/16/2022 @ 3:40 pm

    Apparently no treason charges.

    Rip Murdock (394f29)

  202. If you think this is a coincidence, know that Ms Cheney was a principal author of the new law.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  203. Rip,

    Apparently not. Does not mean that waging war on the United States is not Treason, just that they don’t think they can prove that the insurrection (which he IS charged with) was actually “waging war.” Probably good that no one brought guns and that MTG didn’t organize it.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  204. Trump has always been selling schlock. And these photoshops are environmentally friendly.

    nk (5e7f68)

  205. Sonce the Jan 6th committee’s entire goal is to get Trump why even bother. Thry prevented having anyone on it that would counter the narrative.

    Trying to “fortify” 2024.

    NJRob (3d164b)

  206. Recognize the Royalists; long entrenched, long overdue to be cleared out. Case in point; 11/22/63:

    “When word of the shooting of President Kennedy reached the offices of our operating divisions and staffs on the afternoon of Friday 22 November 1963, transistor radios were turned on everywhere to follow the tragedy,” the memo reads. “When the name of Lee OSWALD was heard, the effect was electric. A phone message from the FBI came at about the same time, naming OSWALD as the possible assassin and asking for traces.”

    At that point, here is what happened, per the memo: James Jesus Angleton, the chief of CIA counter-intelligence, passed the FBI’s message on to something called the Special Investigations Unit. Another operative, a woman named Betty Egerter, “immediately recognized” Oswald’s name and “went for his file.” The Mexico desk chief called in to remind his colleagues “that we had something on Oswald.” A cable was dispatched to Mexico City asking “for more information on OSWALD.” At that very moment, the CIA station in Mexico City sent its own cable as a “reminder of the information the Station had sent in on him.”

    What emerges from this account is not so much a portrait of CIA officials horror-struck that their role in the president’s murder might be exposed but of government bureaucrats scrambling to find details about the accused assassin and cover themselves, no doubt worried that they might be blamed for not paying more attention to him before the murder.” – yahoonews.com

    Despicable. Bureaucrats be damned.

    Memo to Roberts: Found the leaker yet?

    And Alito smiled… just like Vlad.

    DCSCA (b67827)

  207. Trying to “fortify” 2024.

    NJRob (3d164b) — 12/16/2022 @ 5:32 pm

    The only way to fortify 2024 would be to help Trump secure the nomination.

    norcal (862cdb)

  208. And many of your allies are more than happy to see me and people like me dead in a ditch or begging for scraps. Should I treat you the way they treat me?

    aphrael (4c4719) — 12/16/2022 @ 11:57 am

    If my allies had power, you might have a point. But it’s your allies running things, so there goes that complaint.

    The screeching over Twitter is because someone who was on your side, isn’t running it the way you want it to be run right now.

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d)

  209. There may very well be an organized attack, but far more damage is being done by the terrible decisions Musk is making about how to run the company. I expect it to be *rightly* sued into bankruptcy within a year.

    aphrael (4c4719) — 12/16/2022 @ 10:36 am

    It took five years for your allies at Oberlin to pay the Gibsons for trying to run them out of business for something they didn’t do. Even if Musk gets sued, there’s no way Twitter goes under in a year unless the US government figures out some other way to get its defense satellites into orbit.

    Elon Musk is one of the government’s made men, like Peter Thiel and George Soros, and it takes a lot more than the whining of a few terminally online bluechecks to change that. As recently as this summer, leftists like Stephen Colbert and Debbie Stabenow were mocking the proles for having to pay high gas prices because they owned a Tesla.

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d)

  210. If my allies had power, you might have a point. But it’s your allies running things, so there goes that complaint.

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d) — 12/16/2022 @ 6:06 pm

    It’s premature to complain about atrocities because my side hasn’t prevailed yet?

    norcal (862cdb)

  211. It’s premature to complain about atrocities because my side hasn’t prevailed yet?

    norcal (862cdb) — 12/16/2022 @ 6:16 pm

    A bunch of terminally online leftists getting their Twitter accounts suspended is hardly an atrocity.

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d)

  212. Yet another RW conspiracy theory:

    California law makes losing a 2nd Amendment case extremely costly, and threatens law firms that file such cases with financial ruin.

    Oh, wait, not so nutty after all:

    https://reason.com/volokh/2022/12/02/challenge-to-california-fee-shifting-statute-that-targets-gun-lawsuit-plaintiffs-and-lawyers-can-proceed/

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  213. This Euroslime is making a good argument for why the entire EU should be kicked off Twitter.

    Věra Jourová
    @VeraJourova
    News about arbitrary suspension of journalists on Twitter is worrying. EU’s Digital Services Act requires respect of media freedom and fundamental rights. This is reinforced under our #MediaFreedomAct.
    @elonmusk should be aware of that. There are red lines. And sanctions, soon.
    2:52 AM · Dec 16, 2022

    I wonder if this idiot realizes that “tWiTTeR iS A PrivAtE cOmPAny!” and they can not only be kicked off the platform at any time, the entire European continent can be blacklisted from it. These people hide behind their own draconian speech codes while demanding unfettered access to unlimited rights and privileges for themselves and their mouthpieces, just like the corrupt husks of rotting flesh that they are.

    Maybe the EU can make TikTok the official continental social media platform, which would be juicy considering the US government is now positioning China as the next USSR.

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d)

  214. There may very well be an organized attack, but far more damage is being done by the terrible decisions Musk is making about how to run the company. I expect it to be *rightly* sued into bankruptcy within a year.

    Lest you forget, SpaceX was literally one launch away from flaming out.

    “Oops!” – Rick Perry, 2011

    DCSCA (9da1be)

  215. Kevin mccarthy says five republican congressmen refuse to vote for for him for speaker and another two dozen are non committal. Democrats offer to help for concessions or they will vote for Bobert or MTG for speaker!

    asset (e9527b)

  216. Time123 (0b1a90) — 12/16/2022 @ 5:43 am

    You’re arguing over the justification for FWO’s nihilism, not the fact of it. I don’t doubt he honestly believes his rejection of norms and neutral principles is virtuous, but reject them he does. Indeed, to his credit he doesn’t pretend otherwise. And while that rejection may not be upper-case “N” philosophical Nihilism, in common parlance outside philosophy departments, nihilism it is. But if you don’t like that word, fine. I have no attachment to it. It’s what it signifies that matters. So just know that when I use it here, “pursuit of one’s ends unconstrained by norms and neutral principles” is what I mean by it.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  217. Jan. 6 panel to vote on urging DOJ to prosecute Trump on at least three criminal charges

    Better start making that prison uniform trading card now. It will sell like hotcakes!

    norcal (862cdb) — 12/16/2022 @ 3:42 pm

    I expect the 1/6 Committee’s referrals to have as much influence as my own recommendations on what DOJ ultimately decides to charge, and properly so.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  218. Democrats offer to help for concessions or they will vote for Bobert or MTG for speaker!

    Concession he should offer: Expel MTG for her advocacy of armed insurrection.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  219. Better start making that prison uniform trading card now. It will sell like hotcakes!

    I’d settle with a video of his first hour in prison.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  220. What did the f.b.i. know and when did they know it? Matt taibbi Let me begin. The f.b.i. made up story about hunter biden’s lap top and then told twitter in back channels along with google and face book that is was russian disinformation and it was true! Suggesting that n.y. post be banned thru their ex lawyer now working as a twitter lawyer. (fox news) and now many more news outlets. 10% for the big guy!

    asset (e9527b)

  221. Rob, what do you mean “media and leftist companies ‘fortifying the election’ to ensure Trump lost?” How could they “ensure” something like that?
    If you’re talking about their bias, whoop de do, same as it ever was.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  222. NBC temporarily suspended rich boy nepot/media hall monitor Ben Collins for Musk Derangement Syndrome. From Semafor:

    NBC News had already benched one of the journalists who has reported on Twitter and been harshly critical of Musk. NBC News temporarily suspended tech reporter Ben Collins from covering Musk on NBC and MSNBC airwaves. According to two sources, the network told Collins earlier this month that his criticism of Musk, which included comments about how the billionaire was purposefully trying to destroy Twitter, was not editorially appropriate. Collins continued to tweet his reporting about Twitter last night about the social network’s ban of journalists.

    Imagine being such a sperg about Elon that even your NBC adult daycare told you to chill out for a week because you were embarrassing them.

    Elon must have threatened a lawsuit for them to put him in timeout like a naughty child. Normally these guys are able to do whatever they want as long as they’re going after the left’s Current Target, and they don’t expose their employer to liability.

    This is the piece de resistance from the article, though:

    A CNN staffer told Semafor that network executives scrambled last night to reach Twitter after O’Sullivan was suspended, but almost all of the network’s previous contacts at the company had been fired or resigned.

    Looks like Musk chased out most of Twitter’s newsroom operatives.

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d)

  223. Kevin mccarthy says five republican congressmen refuse to vote for for him for speaker and another two dozen are non committal.

    I think McCarthy has already clinched it now that he, through his donors and proxies, has bought up all of Trump’s NFTs. Trump will bring the recalcitrant MAGAs into line for him.

    You guys who make fun of Trump’s NFTs just don’t know how to launder bribes the way Trump knows how to launder bribes, that’s what you don’t know.

    nk (ca3d6f)

  224. And speaking of opportunism, here’s something interesting:

    Wikipedia is not for sale.
    Please don’t skip this 1 minute read. This Saturday December 17th, we humbly ask for your support. We are the nonprofit that hosts Wikipedia and 12 other free knowledge projects. Being a nonprofit means there is no danger that someone will buy Wikipedia and turn it into their personal playground.

    Gee, I wonder what they could be alluding to.

    nk (ca3d6f)

  225. Gee, I wonder what they could be alluding to.

    nk (ca3d6f) — 12/17/2022 @ 6:59 am

    Maybe they could fundraise by charging Musk for the space he’s taking in their heads.

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d)

  226. People were probably emailing the company to ask if Musk was threatening to buy the company and can their jannies like Molly White, aka GorillaWarfare, one of Wikipedia’s schizoid rad-left editors.

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d)

  227. Being a nonprofit means there is no danger that someone will buy Wikipedia and turn it into their personal playground.

    LOL

    The Wikipedia founder also said there are companies that hire paid writers and editors to go in and change articles.

    “Maybe there’s some way to make such a system work, but not if the players who are involved and who are being paid, are not identified by name — they actually are supposed to be identified by name and say ‘we represent this firm’ if they are officially registered with some sort of Wikipedia editing firm,” he said.

    “But they don’t have to do that because there is no requirement of real names. As I say it is a very complex sort of game … there are all sorts of tricks that people can play to win it,” he added.

    JF (e1ad28)

  228. @214 FWO, I lack your seething rage against the EU but I agree the Twitter should tell them to pound sand. They should do the same thing China. But they won’t. Musk has no real passion for free speech and he’s not going to risk his profit margin. Which is fine, it’s his company he can do with it as he pleases. Fight for principles of free expression against censoring regimes like China & EU or grow his user base in those regions is a choice he can make. Like you I just wish he’d put more emphasis on free speech.

    Time123 (32a6e9)

  229. I wanted to add that there is an argument to be made that engaging / tolerating oppressive countries allows for more net free expression for the people who have to live there and that depending on what the goals of the company are the path to the ‘optimal’ amount of freedom may be tricky.

    Telling Iran for instance that you won’t do business with them is moral and satisfying but from what I’ve read Iranians that oppose the regime have been able to make good use of twitter.

    Obviously this can also be a rationalization for doing less then you otherwise could. As I said, it’s tricky.

    Time123 (2f6145)

  230. @229: Musk has no real passion for free speech and he’s not going to risk his profit margin.

    make up your mind

    if he risks his profit margin, you revel in his running Twitter into the ground as seen in your comments up thread

    if he moderates content to please advertisers/China/Iran and Twitter’s bottom line, he has no real passion for free speech

    Twitter today allows more content than before Musk, and accounts suspended over the years have been restored. This is objectively a stronger commitment to free speech, which you can’t bear to acknowledge

    JF (e1ad28)

  231. I’m getting Dana withdrawals, this being Saturday with no open thread, but I can do an amateurish half-assed attempt.

    1. J6 The Committee will likely send a Trump criminal referral to DOJ for insurrection, obstruction of an official proceeding and defrauding the US government, the latter of which appears easiest to prove, IMO. I’m equally curious about who else will be included in the referral, but I’m guessing the Fake Electors, Mark Meadows, and John Eastman for a start.

    2. Putin’s Quagmire. This is a longish expose on Putin’s failures in Ukraine, but it’s good. I don’t see Vlad gaining much more territory, but I do see him losing a lot, including the Crimean region and his precious Kerch bridge. Zeihan makes a fair case that his war could be decided by May, and I see Putin’s terrorist missile attacks on civilian targets the past few months as a sign of desperation. To quote Vlad’s alter ego.

    The dildo of consequences rarely arrives lubed.
    I remain a master strategist.

    That’s it. The four-link limit is maxed.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  232. We deploy an anti-missile missile, the Russians deploy an anti-missile-missile missile ….

    Biden should stop “mulling” and do it. Three months ago!

    nk (7a2b31)

  233. @233. 3. Trump’s Triumph

    He’s such a card:

    Donald Trump’s Trading Cards Keep Going Up in Price

    The NFTs quickly sold out and Newsweek reported on Friday that their price had almost doubled on the secondary market.

    “My Trump Digital Trading Cards sold out in hours. Congratulations to the collectors. Thank you.”

    https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-trading-cards-keep-going-price-1767885

    Anybody check the value of the Reagan postage stamp lately? 😉

    DCSCA (22d819)

  234. @232 you can indict a ham sandwich and criminally refer the wrapper it comes in

    JF (668fcb)

  235. @233. Patriots??? Why? Let EUROPE set one up if they choose to put out a fire in their own backyard. Macron’s France has one– but golly, why pay for it when they can sucker the indebted, inflation-riddled dumb-azzed Americans to pay for it:

    The UK, France and Italy developed a programme called PAAMS (also known as Sea Viper in the UK) in the late 1990s. It was developed to arm the Horizon-class frigate (a joint programme between the UK, France and Italy). The UK dropped out of the frigate programme after collective differences remained unsolved, and instead decided to design and build its own Type 45 destroyer which would still use the PAAMS missile system. France and Italy, following this departure, incorporated a ground-launched anti-ballistic missile system into the plans, and developed SAMPT – a truck-launched anti-ballistic missile system which used PAAMS technology.

    The United States has not declared war with Russia. And Israel opposes selling/deploying the Iron Dome system to Ukraine.

    DCSCA (22d819)

  236. JF, the only thing you’ve correctly understood about my previous comments is that I will enjoy it if Twitter is entertaining and I’m fine if that entertainment comes from Twitter crashing and burning. As I said previously, twitter isn’t important.

    While musk has brought back right wing accounts like baked Alaska and Andrew Anglin he’s also banned accounts for posting things critical to him that have nothing to do with his personal safety. So I don’t see much evidence that he values free speech, more that he values different speech then the previous owners of twitter. Which he has every right to do, it’s his property and he can use it as he sees fit (within the law).

    Time123 (54686f)

  237. Being a nonprofit means there is no danger that someone will buy Wikipedia and turn it into their personal playground.

    You haven’t really lived until you get into a edit war with a woke Wikipedia “editor.”

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  238. Wikipedia is extremely useful on many topics, particularly hard sciences, technology and history. Is sucks wind on current events, living persons, climate theory and anything that attracts fanboys.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  239. Will it soon be incorrect to refer to MTG as MTG?

    You mean ‘MTG R’ to ‘MTG D’– as in “divorced,” of course. W/AOC off the market, the weevils will have a new babe to gossip over rather than cover the plumetting ratings of The Joe Show. but then, the PBS News Hour punditry says he’s been a successful POTUS so far. They’re so well fed and paid at PBS– never miss a meal or a pledge drive! 😉

    DCSCA (22d819)

  240. So I don’t see much evidence that he values free speech, more that he values different speech then the previous owners of twitter. Which he has every right to do, it’s his property and he can use it as he sees fit (within the law).
    Time123 (54686f) — 12/17/2022 @ 11:09 am

    yes, it’s worrisome that he bans speech consisting of puerile location tracking of targeted individuals

    which is a lot like banning speech pertaining to covid origins, lockdown impact, and hunter’s laptop days before the election

    sounds like you’ve got the whole free speech thing squared away

    JF (668fcb)

  241. One thing is clear: Drudge has it in for Musk.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  242. Right now, Musk looks like a guy caught in a swarm of bees. It’s really hard to know what Twitter will look like once the air clears.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  243. Surprising utterly no one:

    Trump Tax Returns May Be Released After House Panel Meets Tuesday

    WASHINGTON—The House Ways and Means Committee scheduled a closed-door meeting for Tuesday at which lawmakers are likely to review former President Donald Trump’s tax returns and may vote to release some of them.

    The committee obtained access to the returns last month when the Supreme Court removed the final obstacle after a yearslong fight against Mr. Trump. Democrats have little time left to act before they lose control of the House majority and the committee on Jan. 3.

    The meeting notice sent to lawmakers Friday doesn’t specify what action the committee might take or which documents, reports or analysis, if any, it might make public. The panel has focused its efforts and its legal case on potential changes to the Internal Revenue Service program for annual audits of presidents, which is an agency policy not required by law.

    Under the tax code, the Ways and Means Committee chairman—currently Rep. Richard Neal (D., Mass.)—has the authority to request anyone’s tax returns and records from the IRS. He can then review them, and so can agents he designates. The committee can consider them in a closed-door meeting and then vote to make those normally confidential records public as part of a report to the House.

    Because the House is eagerly awaiting a report on how Presidential tax returns are audited, you see.

    Trump argued all along this was just a dodge to expose his tax returns publicly, and all reasonable people either called it paranoia, or more truthfully said they thought they had a right to see them.

    I fully expect the new House Ways & Means Committee to take some scalps over this. Perhaps they subpoena the returns of the Pelosis and then release them. Perhaps some of the committee Democrats who voted for this will see their returns splashed in the media. Especially if they are creative.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  244. I find the focus on tax returns mysterious. I’d MUCH rather see Trump and Biden’s medical records, and have a fairly good argument that those are more important for the public to know.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  245. JF, He’s also banned reporters for writing about the story, and some who said nothing about. He banned Kanye for posting Nazi stuff, while leaving up a lot of accounts saying similar things. As well as labeling links to mastadon as malware.

    Again, all of this is fine, whether it’s intentional on his part of not he’s creating the user experience that aligns with his preferences.

    What he’s not doing, and I never expected him to do, is creating a “free speech absolutelist” experience. GAB already has that BTW and imo it’s horrible.

    Time123 (60c698)

  246. As I said previously, twitter isn’t important.

    It is to the lazy MSM coiffed, blow-dried, leg-lit teleprompter and hand gadget readers who, along w/t 30-something news managers chasing ratings points w/shrinking budgets, literally minute-by-minute. They depend on it as a ‘source’ to magnify and echo, filling time rather than doing some original, actual shoe-leather reporting. It’s too easy… because it takes time and actual work digging out stories for real news.

    DCSCA (3ea577)

  247. What he’s not doing, and I never expected him to do, is creating a “free speech absolutelist” experience.

    He said that he wasn’t going to be an absolutist, but to try to approach things from that viewpoint, interfering the minimum possible.

    Most Libertarians want SOME government.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  248. Musk took a poll and reinstated the reporters he suspended. Let’s be clear- the true evildoers were the ones running the silly service who banned a POTUS and left global bad guys on it.

    Ask Jeeves. Oh. Wait.

    Just don’t use Twitter.

    DCSCA (3ea577)

  249. “The Committee will likely send a Trump criminal referral to DOJ for insurrection, obstruction of an official proceeding and defrauding the US government”

    MAGA’s response: I got your referral right here

    Trump’s team knew a violent protest at the Capitol was likely (evidence from Cassidy Hutchinson was damning, even FNC ackowledged the strength of the testimony). On J6, Trump knew that some in the crowd at the Ellipse were armed. We know that Trump desperately wanted to go and speak at the Capitol while the chaos was building and that his legal team was desperately trying to stop that. We know Trump tweeted: “Mike Pence didn’t have the courage to do what should have been done to protect our Country and our Constitution” and that violence escalated after that point.

    We know multiple aids, external advisors (like Sean Hannity), and family members tried to get Trump to disavow the violence and tell his supporters to leave the Capitol. We know he sat and watched TV instead of taking action for multiple hours. Post J6, Trump has continued touting the election lies despite all of the evidence of his top advisors saying there was no such evidence. He now says he wants to pardon rioters from J6.

    A functional GOP would have closed the sad incident with a decisive impeachment vote, out front leading the effort instead of saving Trump at the 11th hour. Impeachment was the right action. We’re now left with the impending spectacle of an ex-President being indicted and we have to suffer yet another tedious election campaign to go along with it. And MAGA yawns…now do Joe Biden…indeed

    AJ_Liberty (6a18fd)

  250. @251. How’s house hunting going for Daughter Darth? Is she moving back to her “beloved” Wyoming– or holding up in Washington for a gig on MSNBC’s Morning Joe breakfast club — or a consultancy w/t DNC.

    DCSCA (3ea577)

  251. Joe Biden roasted for busting out ‘old school, anti-Irish’ slur, claiming he’s Italian: ‘He needs help’

    President Joe Biden’s critics on Twitter blasted him for a couple of awkward ethnic-related comments he made during a recent U.S. veterans town hall address in Delaware. During the Friday speech, Biden claimed that despite him being Irish, “he’s not stupid” and insisted he’s got “a little Italian” in him because his wife’s family is Italian. [WTF???] Though many internet users panned the comments as being in poor taste. A clip of the statement went viral on Twitter, and several prominent users weighed in, suggesting the president was repeating anti-Irish sentiment, and on top of that, getting his wife’s genealogy wrong. Conservative digital strategist Greg Price, who shared the clip on Twitter, informed users on what was behind Biden’s latest embellishment. He tweeted, “Jill Biden’s father’s name is Donald Jacobs,” adding, “Giacoppa is apparently the Italianized version of Jill Biden’s maiden name lol.” According to a CNN report, First Lady Jill Biden – whose maiden name is Jacobs – does have Italian roots, though her great-grandfather was the last of her family to have the name Giacoppa prior to coming to the United States. Steve Guest, special advisor for communications for Sen. Ted Cruz, [Cancun’s favorite son, Canadian Cruz?!?] replied, “FACT CHECK: Giacoppa was actually Jill Biden’s grandfather, not her father.”… Businessman and conservative user Eoghan McCabe put the dig back on Biden, tweeting, “Irishman here. I feel neutral because I think he actually is stupid.”

    The Washington Examiner’s Jerry Dunleavy provided his in-depth analysis of Biden’s comment, tweeting, “Biden loves this Bidenism (he’s said it in the past before) — just casual old school anti-Irish stereotyping, but he thinks it’s a fun part of his gift of the gab because he considers himself Irish (his great-great-great grandfather moved to America from Ireland in the 1800s.)”

    Author Helena Morissey tweeted, “My Irish-born husband says: Biden is not Irish and he needs help.”

    Daily Signal senior reporter Mary Margaret Olohan quipped that Biden’s dig at Irish folks was a “hate crime.” He joked, “I may be Irish, but I’m not stupid. [All evidence to the contrary.] I married Dominic Giacoppa’s daughter so, you know, I got a little Italian in me now.” -FoxNews.com

    More like you got into a little Italian, Joey. BTW. what’s it cost to fill your 18-wheeler with diesel these days, chum?

    Memo to Xi; Take Taiwan. Slow Joe will never notice.

    DCSCA (3ea577)

  252. As I said previously, twitter isn’t important.

    the FBI seems to disagree pretty strongly and, though the bureau has taken a credibility hit of late, we should believe you instead?

    Musk booted all the agents who got jobs with Twitter, to his credit

    JF (eb0cff)

  253. @254. Have they found the SCOTUS leaker yet?

    Nope.

    DCSCA (cd2fb3)

  254. JF, nothing in that article makes the case that Twitter is important. Something said on Twitter might be important but the app itself isn’t.

    Time123 (3361ae)

  255. The problem:

    Republican Party
    Founded June 1856; 166 years ago

    Democratic Party
    Founded, January, 1828; 194 years ago

    Neither of these horse-and-buggy, 19th century relics are capable of addressing nor managing the festering problems facing the United States in the light-speed times of the 21st century. This is why castles get stormed.

    DCSCA (cd2fb3)

  256. The Daily Mail is garbage. And when it quotes Tucker Carlson, garbage times garbage.

    nk (7a2b31)

  257. The Daily Mail is garbage. And when it quotes Tucker Carlson, garbage times garbage.

    Trash talk? The audience, advertisers, ratings and circulation say different:

    Fox News Dominates Q3 Cable News Ratings As All Networks See Declines In Prime Time

    The highest-rated show for the third quarter was Fox News Channel’s The Five, which had an average total audience of 3.295 million viewers, and Fox swept the five most-watched shows with The Five followed by Tucker Carlson Tonight (3.153 million viewers), Jesse Watters Primetime (2.726 million viewers), Hannity (2.682 million viewers) and Special Report with Bret Baier (2.341 million viewers).

    In the key demo, Fox News again took the top five most-watched shows, with Tucker Carlson Tonight finishing first with 468,000 viewers, followed by The Five (418,000 viewers), Hannity (358,000 viewers), Jesse Watters Primetime (342,000 viewers), and Gutfeld! (339,000 viewers).

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/markjoyella/2022/09/27/fox-news-dominates-3q-cable-news-ratings-as-all-networks-see-declines-in-prime-time/?sh=83637da43f55

    The Daily Mail is a tabloid style British newspaper. First published in 1896 by Lord Northcliffe, it is the United Kingdom’s second biggest-selling daily newspaper after The Sun. Its sister paper, The Mail on Sunday was launched in 1982.

    https://anglotopia.net/anglophilia/which-british-newspaper-are-you-a-guide-to-british-newspapers/

    DCSCA (cd2fb3)

  258. The Daily Mail is garbage. And when it quotes Tucker Carlson, garbage times garbage.

    Well, there are worse papers. There are even worse British papers. And in among its sensational articles are bits and pieces of the truth that you won’t get in our newspapers of record. Particularly those that impact TPTB.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  259. No argument about Carlson.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  260. How’s house hunting going for Daughter Darth?

    She’s going to run for President if Trump does. That way there will be someone on stage to call him a lying sack of spit at every debate, and not worry about losing the Trumpist vote.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  261. Example of a worse UK paper.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  262. @262. She’s going to run for President if Trump does.

    If? He announced a month ago.

    DCSCA (2a5d1c)

  263. That way there will be someone on stage to call him a lying sack of spit at every debate

    So she’s running as a Democrat against Joey.

    DCSCA (2a5d1c)

  264. No argument about Carlson.

    Given his ratings and audience share, hard to argue with a success.

    “The audience has spoken and I beg forgiveness.” – Ray Clark [Edmond O’Beien] ‘Seven Days In May’ 1964

    DCSCA (ad5eaf)

  265. The 1/6 committee has served an invaluable purpose ferreting out and disclosing important evidence, but as the originator of criminal charges it’s superfluous. If the criminal referral contains evidence not already in DOJ’s possession, which I doubt, great. But the referral itself, meh. Either DOJ has the evidence it needs to bring charges, in which case the referral is unnecessary, or it lacks such evidence, in which case the referral is insufficient. The DOJ is perfectly competent to make that assessment without the advice of a politically biased committee of a political branch of government. Committees of both parties make these referrals when they’re in power, and they’re equally empty grandstanding whichever of them is doing it.

    To be clear, if a Democratic committee was referring Democrats for prosecution, or a Republican committee Republicans, that would be valuable, as it would lend public legitimacy to what might otherwise be perceived as political prosecution. But when the political and prosecution arrows point the same way, no such value is added.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  266. The 1/6 committee has served an invaluable purpose ferreting out and disclosing important evidence…

    Rubbish. A wholly partisan committee literally stage-crafted for the cameras by a TV exec is a classic example of useless government waste of time and resources fueled by a destructive, Royalist-filled political party that fails to secure the borders, deepens the national debt and prefers to meddle in other nation’s problems rather than address the festering issues facing their own constituents. This is why popoulism is rooting deeper and deeper— and Royalist castles get stormed.

    DCSCA (0b8596)

  267. https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2022/12/17/survey-shows-ron-desantis-leading-joe-biden/

    Ho hum. The knives will come out from the fake conservatives. Can’t have conservative policies that actually win, can we. They are social leftists, first, last and always.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  268. Ho hum. The knives will come out from the fake conservatives. Can’t have conservative policies that actually win, can we. They are social leftists, first, last and always.

    NJRob (eb56c3) — 12/17/2022 @ 8:33 pm

    A “fake” conservative is anybody who supported Trump, especially during the 2016 Republican primary. Every single one of the other contestants was better than Trump, and it wasn’t even close. No conservative would ever suggest terminating the Constitution, as Trump recently did.

    Trump toxified whatever conservative policy he touched.

    norcal (862cdb)

  269. A “fake” conservative is anybody who opposed Trump, especially during the 2016 Republican primary.

    FIFY. Neocons be damned; the National Review fleas have been swept out of the tail which no longer wags the dog.

    DCSCA (65048e)

  270. Either DOJ has the evidence it needs to bring charges, in which case the referral is unnecessary, or it lacks such evidence, in which case the referral is insufficient

    I disagree a little bit. What it does is lights a fire under DoJ. If they don’t indict Trump, they have to explain why, to Congressmen of their party. Further, they underline the charges that they expect to see.

    The assertion that Trump is guilty of “insurrection”, whatever that is, carries some weight if he wants to run again. Any number of blue states might refuse to list him on their ballot line, arguing “the 14th Amendment blah blah blah”, even if he is the GOP nominee, and even if no such charges are actually brought.

    OK, more than a little bit.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  271. DCSCA (65048e) — 12/17/2022 @ 11:33 pm

    Consider the source. This may be evergreen.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  272. Trump toxified whatever conservative policy he touched.

    He actually toxified some Democrat policies by touching them

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  273. @273. Consider the source.

    Indies and GOP voters did; rejected the NR neocons-Kristol-Charen types and Bush era Vulcans who quilled the ‘never-trump’ NR issue in 2016 and were left behind.

    DCSCA (65048e)

  274. Biden says he can’t release any more documents on jfk assassination for national security reasons it would harm the fbi and cia. J. edgar hoover who was friends with lbj refused to tell secret service about oswald’s relationship with the cia and that he worked in the texas school book depository on jfk’s route. Hoover did the same thing when double agent popov (the real life james bond) told him his german agents told him to get information on defenses at pearl harbor for their japanese allies who were obviously planning to attack. Hoover thought an attack would help him and hurt fdr who he was feuding with.

    asset (a274ed)

  275. Kevin: “If they don’t indict Trump, they have to explain why, to Congressmen of their party.”

    And why would this matter? Do career DoJ lawyers work at the discretion of Congress? As Lurker says, if they don’t indict Trump, it’s because the evidence is just not strong enough to convince a jury that will likely consist of some people who axtually voted for Trump. It must survive cross examination and overcome inevitable biases of those jurors…or what’s the point? All of that while in the background Trump runs for a second term and riles up his base at the legitimacy of the inquiry. It will test the very fabric of our system of justice….and Trump will gamble with that because he simply doesn’t care about norms and institutions.

    J6 was about having some sort of public accounting for the storming of the Capitol. The problem was that too many GOP congressmen had dirt on their hands from pushing the election denial meme, that it was destined from the start to be cast as a partisan affair. The GOP decided this by nominating the most divisive individuals to the committee and then, when denied, taking their ball and going home. This is the sad GOP legacy of accountability and why McCarthy is a poor leader and shouldn’t be speaker. We’re where we’re at because the GOP could not do its duty on impeachment….and that’s sad

    AJ_Liberty (811aff)

  276. Twitter booted Taylor Lorenz.

    On the one hand this is contradictory to Musks claimed stance one free speech. (But he has every legal right to do so. It’s his property)
    On the other hand she’s a horrible person, completely obnoxious, and no sane person would miss her.

    Since everyone involved in that sucks no matter how it turns out it should be good entertaining.

    Time123 (68db8b)

  277. Ordinarily, I would disapprove of this kind of demonstration:

    “Velvet Terrorism: Pussy Riot’s Russia” is the first overview of what Pussy Riot has been up to the past 10 years. Improvised, anarchic and viscerally intense, the exhibition — at Kling & Bang, an artist-run gallery on the Reykjavik waterfront — may just be the most important of 2022.

    The first work you encounter as you enter the show is a short, sensationally provocative video. Filmed only days before the opening in the studio of Ragnar Kjartansson, Iceland’s most famous contemporary artist, the video shows Pussy Riot member Taso Pletner, in a red balaclava, standing on a table over a propped-up portrait of Putin. Pletner hikes up their black smock and proceeds to urinate on the portrait, before kicking it to the ground.

    But for “Czar” Putin, it is, if anything, too mild.

    Jim Miller (f29931)

  278. Offensive, that the antisemitic attacker didn’t get Ye’s name right. What was he thinking.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  279. The mullahs of the Iranian de facto theocracy are still at it, the latest being the arrest of one of their most famous actresses for an Instagram photo sans headwear, criticizing the dictatorship for their use of the death penalty.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  280. @278: Twitter booted Taylor Lorenz.
    On the one hand this is contradictory to Musks claimed stance one free speech.

    It’s not contradictory at all.

    Lorenz is guilty of doxxing, which is free speech like yelling fire in a crowded theater is or soliciting minors.

    The fretting about “high-profile journalists” getting booted from Twitter is hilarious.

    JF (838861)

  281. JF,

    Doxxing should result in an immediate ban with no exceptions, right?

    Ban Elon.

    DRJ (676a53)

  282. No fretting about any exceptions or how high profile he is.

    DRJ (676a53)

  283. No fretting about any exceptions or how high profile he is.

    DRJ (676a53) — 12/18/2022 @ 9:42 am

    “HURRRR GOING OUT IN PUBLIC MEANS HE DOXXED HIMSELF HERPITY DERPITY DOOOOOO!!”

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d)

  284. Biden says he can’t release any more documents on jfk assassination for national security reasons it would harm the fbi and cia.

    Why? Because they say so?? A POTUS w/both oars in the water wouldn’t tolerate this BS; it’s nearly 2023, not 1963. So his figleaf pitch is the FBI & CIA haven’t changed methods and procedures since 1963? Is he concerned he’ll miff Mao, expose the double agents in Khrushchev’s Kremlin and rattle Castro?? Will it compromise British PM Douglas-Home??? The greatest national security threat to the United States today is in the Oval: Joseph Robinette Biden, Jr.

    DCSCA (b3c7ca)

  285. DRJ (676a53) — 12/18/2022 @ 9:40 am

    yeah umm, really

    and if he tweets out a nude photo of himself he’s guilty of revenge porn

    JF (838861)

  286. Lorenz is guilty of doxxing, which is free speech like yelling fire in a crowded theater is or soliciting minors.

    True, but the “crime” that caused her banning was asking Mad King Elon for a response to a story.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  287. DCSCA (b3c7ca) — 12/18/2022 @ 9:58 am

    Biden claiming that declassifying the JFK files would harm the FBI and CIA is actually a great argument for why they should be released. According to their logic, if they didn’t do anything wrong, why should they have anything to hide here?

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d)

  288. The rest of AllahNick’s piece is as good as the opening paragraphs.

    I’ve written a few times about Elon Musk and his new kingdom, and each time I have a commenter has popped up to say, “OH MY GOD NO ONE CARES.”

    Really? You read this newsletter because you’re interested in populism, don’t you? Well, Musk’s lightning descent from idealistic toppler of the social-media ancien regime to edgelord Robespierre is the most amusing populist story going. Certainly it’s more compelling than Trump shaking down the cult for cash for the 8,000th time or Ron DeSantis offering panem et circenses to anti-vaxxers.

    It flatters our priors as Dispatch readers, too. If you suspect that beneath the surface of every self-styled tribune of the people lurks an authoritarian itching to clamp down on his enemies, the last 24 hours at Twitter have you feeling pretty smug.

    And it’s legitimately historic. What we’re witnessing right now is, without exaggeration, probably the worst case of social-media brain-poisoning in history. Day by day, in public view, one of the most successful businessmen to ever live is selling off assets and wrecking his productive endeavors to chase the dragon of online attention. Anyone else in Musk’s position would have quickly hired a CEO and assembled a team to execute his vision for the site while he turned his attention back to Tesla and SpaceX. Instead he seems to be working the dials himself, needlessly and manically. It’s as if Jeff Bezos insisted on personally copy editing everything that appears in the Washington Post.

    All things considered, Elon would have been better off getting addicted to heroin than to Twitter. His habit would have been cheaper, at least; for what he paid for his current fix, he could have bought all the junk on Earth.

    Finally, if Joshua Green and I are right, Musk’s revolution-gone-bad is doing us all a favor by sucking some of the life out of Trump’s 2024 campaign. He’s given MAGA fans an exciting new outlet of daily lib-owning gratification, one that doesn’t require making a proto-fascist coup-plotter president. The sort of person who can’t be truly happy without knowing that some group of Democrats somewhere is angry about something can now scratch that itch safely, to our mutual benefit.

    In short, you should be paying attention to Twitter—if only to help me settle on the right metaphor for Musk going forward. Is he a monarch or Montagnard?

    Whichever it is, the heads have begun to roll.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  289. True, but the “crime” that caused her banning was asking Mad King Elon for a response to a story.
    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 12/18/2022 @ 10:04 am

    how do you know?

    you mean he can’t ban her for behavior prior to him taking over?

    I doubt he’s constantly keeping up with those worthy of being kicked off until they tweak his nose

    JF (838861)

  290. you mean he can’t ban her for behavior prior to him taking over?

    Musk can ban her for farting in his general direction, but the irony is that he’s displaying the same TOS inconsistency and lack of transparency that he complained about before taking over the reins.
    As for “how do you know”, the timing speaks for itself, JF.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  291. JF (838861) — 12/18/2022 @ 10:16 am

    Honestly, it doesn’t matter why she’s gone. She has a Mastodon account, and if Twitter “didn’t really matter,” because it “is the 10th most-popular social media platform,” as some cope-posts here have argued, then her or her lefty boos getting suspended should hardly be a problem in that context anyway.

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d)

  292. Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 12/18/2022 @ 10:24 am

    Paywall. I’m impressed with how many left wing outlets you choose to underwrite

    I’ll assume what that article says, which is pretty easy, and I’m guessing it doesn’t name a TOS under Musk that is motivated by political partisanship

    which means he may be inconsistent, but the inconsistency is hardly “the same”

    JF (838861)

  293. “one of the most successful businessmen to ever live is selling off assets and wrecking his productive endeavors to chase the dragon of online attention.”

    Yeah AllahNick nails it. It’s a weird “hey look at me, I’m winning the internet today….woooo hoooo” moment….as Tesla sputters and Twitter’s stock continues to tumble. I guess this is what an addicted bored billionaire looks like. No wonder he’s with Jared…

    “if they didn’t do anything wrong, why should they have anything to hide here”

    I’m sure it’s just methods and people, like how they got information about Oswald’s visit in Mexico City. Still, nearly 60 years has passed one wonders how sensitive it can be to release that we had people on the inside giving us information on the Soviets and the Cubans…and the mob. They’re probably waiting for someone to die or are concerned for relatives….or just driving up anticipation for the big reveal….

    AJ_Liberty (811aff)

  294. Paywall. I’m impressed with how many left wing outlets you choose to underwrite

    Know your “enemy”, FWO.
    BTW, I don’t subscribe to Daily Beast, so I don’t why I got in and you didn’t.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  295. Oops, not FWO.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  296. If the alleged doxxing by the reporters suspended on Thursday was so serious, why did Musk reinstate them on Saturday based on a Twitter poll?

    Also the locations of his aircraft are publicly available using flight tracking websites.

    Rip Murdock (4f862d)

  297. @298 comparing Musk’s over sensitive and hypocritical banning rules as it pertains to his privacy to the arbitrary banning and shadowbanning based on political content before he took over is really absurd

    they aren’t even in the same zip code

    JF (838861)

  298. How many here remember buying a big, rideable toy for your kid, only to see him or her playing with the cardboard box?

    nk (3373b6)

  299. Happy 75th Birthday to the only good thing ever to come out of New Jersey (with apologies to Ol’ Blue Eyes and The Boss).

    Rip Murdock (4f862d)

  300. The poor guy has had the thing for barely a month and a half. Let him enjoy it any way he wants before the new rubs off.

    nk (3373b6)

  301. FWO, Taylor getting banned isn’t a problem. It’s hilarious. She’s obnoxious, dishonest, entitled, vindictive, petty, and acts in bad faith. If this brought any discomfort to her (which I doubt) sure exactly the kind of person schadefreud was created for.

    Time123 (fd2731)

  302. Seven scenarios for McCarthy’s Speakership vote — ranked least to most likely
    ………
    The entrenched opposition has raised the specter that McCarthy simply won’t have the support he needs to win the gavel when the House gathers on Jan. 3 to choose the next Speaker.
    ……….
    Here are seven scenarios being floated heading into the vote, ranked from least to most likely:

    A Democrat squeaks in
    ………
    Such a result is very, very unlikely because Republicans will have the majority in the vote and do not want this to happen.
    ………
    ………(I)t is possible — if chaos on the floor prompted frustrated GOP moderates to back a centrist Democrat — that a member of the minority could be elected Speaker.
    ……….

    House elects a Speaker who is not a member of Congress
    ……….

    A moderate Republican wins with backing of some Republicans and Democrats
    ………
    ……,,(L)awmakers are skeptical of the chances for a bipartisan consensus candidate, saying it would be political suicide, particularly for Republicans.
    ………

    McCarthy drops out of Speakership race to make way for consensus pick
    ……….
    ………. (T)here is no obvious figure who can easily win the support of both far-right conservatives who want to alter fundamentally how the House functions and the moderates ready to get on with the process of governing.
    ……….
    ……….(T)here’s no indication the conservatives would support anyone who didn’t accept the same demands they’re making of McCarthy, including a controversial rule change making it easier to oust a sitting Speaker — a change that would empower the right wing even further.
    ……….

    House agrees to make McCarthy Speaker with a plurality of votes
    ……….
    That would require cooperation from Democrats, and it is not clear whether they would support such a resolution.

    But there is precedent for the House agreeing to elect a Speaker by plurality, as it has happened twice before in House history.
    The first time was in 1849, after the House had been in session for 19 days and held 59 ballots for Speaker. It happened again in 1856, when the House had taken 129 Speaker votes without any candidate winning a majority.
    ……….

    McCarthy elected Speaker because of Democratic absences
    ……….
    If the Speakership election drags on and Democrats tire of the repeated ballots, it is possible that Democratic members miss subsequent votes, which could lower the majority threshold just enough for McCarthy to squeak out a victory.
    ………..

    McCarthy wins an outright majority of votes
    ………..
    Some members think that McCarthy may even be able to strike a deal with his detractors and win on the first ballot. Others think that once the McCarthy detractors make their point with at least one failed ballot, they might switch votes to allow him the gavel.
    ………..

    Rip Murdock (4f862d)

  303. @302. Poor guy? ROFLMAOPIP

    DCSCA (7c5669)

  304. Pew:

    About four-in-ten U.S. adults believe humanity is ‘living in the end times’
    ……….
    Christians are divided on this question, with 47% saying we are living in the end times, including majorities in the historically Black (76%) and evangelical (63%) Protestant traditions. Meanwhile, 49% of Christians say we are not living in the end times, including 70% of Catholics and 65% of mainline Protestants who say this. Viewed more broadly, the share of Protestants who say we are living in the end times is greater than the corresponding share among Catholics (55% vs. 27%).

    About three-in-ten or fewer people from non-Christian religions (29%) and those with no religious affiliation (23%) say we are living in the end times. ……..

    ……….(A)dults in Southern states (48%) are more likely to say this than those living in the Midwest (37%), Northeast (34%) or West (31%).

    Americans without college degrees are more likely than college graduates to believe humanity is approaching its end, as are Americans with lower income levels when compared with those with higher incomes. And Republicans and Republican-leaning independents are more likely than Democrats and Democratic leaners to express this belief.
    ……….
    When asked if Jesus “will return to Earth someday,” more than half of all U.S. adults (55%), including three-quarters of Christians, say this will happen. Protestants in the evangelical (92%) and historically Black (86%) traditions are more likely than other Christians to say there will eventually be a second coming of Jesus. Roughly four-in-ten Americans either do not believe Jesus will return to Earth (25%) or say they do not believe in Jesus (16%).

    Respondents who said they believe Jesus will return to Earth were also asked how certain they are that this will happen during their lifetime. ……..
    ……….
    The survey also asked about other beliefs often associated with end-times theology: Whether Jesus will return after a worsening of global conditions leads to a low point for humanity (a view consistent with a theological belief known as “premillennialism”), or whether Jesus will return after an improvement in conditions leads to a high point of peace and prosperity (a view consistent with a belief called “postmillennialism”).
    …………

    Survey questions and responses.

    Rip Murdock (4f862d)

  305. Rip,

    Apparently not. Does not mean that waging war on the United States is not Treason, just that they don’t think they can prove that the insurrection (which he IS charged with) was actually “waging war.” Probably good that no one brought guns and that MTG didn’t organize it.

    Kevin M (1ea396) — 12/16/2022 @ 3:48 pm

    To be fair, Trump hasn’t been charged with anything. I doubt he will be charged with insurrection; seditious conspiracy is a possibility.

    Rip Murdock (4f862d)

  306. RIP P-22 (approx. 12 years old). Celebrity mountain lion living in Griffith Park, Los Angeles.

    Rip Murdock (4f862d)

  307. I just saw this. It’s comparing doxing (which is legal) to [falsely] yelling fire in a crowded theater (may be illegal under certain circumstances) to soliciting minors (which is illegal) is just hilariously stupid.

    If you’re interested in the first amendment a history in the law this series is good and this episode provides good background on the “yelling fire” line.

    Lorenz is guilty of doxxing, which is free speech like yelling fire in a crowded theater is or soliciting minors.

    Time123 (fd2731)

  308. The Jan 6 committee will have its last televised hearing (on NBC at least) at 1 pm Eastern Time tomorrow Monday, December 19.

    The next day they vote on their referrals — who to make themagainst, who to refer something too, and for what.

    Sammy Finkelman (b13338)

  309. We’re where we’re at because the GOP could not do its duty on impeachment….and that’s sad

    We’re where we are because the party decided as far back as 2016 that axing Trump would split the party, and that Trump would self-destruct, allowing them to move forward. Trump showed a remarkable ability to muddle through and the party is still waiting.

    Maybe this time he’s done. If he does indeed compete for the nomination, he’ll have Cheney there at every debate, with a form of momento mori, relentlessly attacking him while leaving everyone else with clean hands.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  310. 1. @ElonJet was not the same thing as doxxing because the information was not precise enough, and could change,.

    2. It was not added danger because anyone who needed that to find the location of Elon’s jet would have a very hard time obtaining a Stinger missile.

    3. In the future things might be different.

    4. Elon Musk stated that he didn;t object if the information ws posted after a delay;

    5. I don’t know tht there’s anyway to automate that on Twitter.

    Sammy Finkelman (b13338)

  311. The Abraham Lincoln statue in RIchmond, Virginia was put up in 2003 by a private nonprofit organization.

    It is supposed to commemorate Lincoln’s visit to Richmond in early April, 1865 with his son Tad and inf fact is a statue of both of them.

    I think that’s the visit where Lincoln said he liked the song “Dixie” and said it could be considered a prize of war or words to that effect.

    The statue contains a few words from Lincoln’s second Inaugural address.

    Sammy Finkelman (b13338)

  312. This is the sad GOP legacy of accountability and why McCarthy is a poor leader and shouldn’t be speaker.

    McCarthy is a consensus leader and that was the consensus. Regarding Trump, he is most certainly a Fellow Traveler, but most of the other contenders are True Believers. A #neverTrump member won’t get a majority of the Caucus. If you replaced McCarthy, you’d get someone just like him, or possibly worse.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  313. Putin’s plan is considered to be to launch another offensive against Ukraine in the spring after preparing the way with bombing.

    That’s his plan

    Sammy Finkelman (b13338)

  314. Biden says he can’t release any more documents on jfk assassination for national security reasons it would harm the fbi and cia.

    Well, that’s hard to understand unless 1) they screwed up the investigation completely, or 2) they covered something up, or 3) they did it.

    Every single person working the case them is dead now, so it could only impact the organizations. Good question to ask DeSantis.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  315. Putin’s plan is considered to be to launch another offensive against Ukraine in the spring after preparing the way with bombing.

    The NYT has a LONG interactive article about How Putin’s War in Ukraine Became a Catastrophe for Russia

    It’s much worse than you think. There is no reason to think that Putin’s new plan is better than Putin’s old plan. Longest 3 day war in history.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  316. Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 12/18/2022 @ 10:24 am

    Like I said.

    @elonmusk
    Temp suspension due to prior doxxing action by this account. Will be lifted shortly.

    Though he should stick to his guns and leave her booted.

    JF (867ead)

  317. Seven scenarios for McCarthy’s Speakership vote — ranked least to most likely

    Any noticeable failure here will get Trump’s followers to turn away from the mainstream GOP. Again. Even though Trump is lobbying for McCarthy, a failure will strengthen Trump by diminishing the other power center.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  318. I can’t say how the vote for Speaker of the House will play out, but the most likely outcomes are his opponents giving up, perhaps after getting a face saving concession, or some Democrats absenting themselves to allow McCarthy to win, perhaps after getting a concession or two on the House rules.

    I thought the rules already allowed a vote on removing the Speaker.

    https://www.byrdcenter.org/blog/how-to-remove-a-speaker-of-the-house

    Sammy Finkelman (b13338)

  319. Anyone else in Musk’s position would have quickly hired a CEO and assembled a team to execute his vision for the site while he turned his attention back to Tesla and SpaceX.

    Indeed. Although I don’t know that the press wouldn’t be posting the same reports anyway.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  320. Happy 75th Birthday

    John Bardeen was the only person to win the Physics Nobel twice. “The Transistor” was the first one. The second one was for the theoretical basis for superconductivity. The guy really did understand quantum mechanics.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  321. I doubt he will be charged with insurrection; seditious conspiracy is a possibility.

    Is “insurrection” an actual crime?

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  322. Time123 (fd2731) — 12/18/2022 @ 11:33 am

    A significant issue here with these particular journo accounts being put in timeout is just how much it reveals the degradation of journalism as a whole the last ten years or so. These guys lost their Twitter back channels when Elon either laid them off or they quit of their own accord, so that avenue for them to manufacture a consensus has been nerfed to a certain extent, although the use of common buzz phrases across mass media shows some journo-list type of coordination is still going on.

    But in the larger scheme, losing access to their account is a short-term disaster. Nu-journalism is largely done these days via Twitter and Google searches. Taking that away degrades their sources, research, and collaborators that gives their clickbait the veneer of importance it needs to become conventional wisdom.

    Suspensions are an absolute disaster for nu-journalism, because these people can’t do it on their own.

    Factory Working Orphan (cb77c2)

  323. It’s comparing doxing (which is legal)

    Well, it is a tort. Invasion of privacy to begin with. Responsibility for possible consequences for another.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  324. The NYT has a lot today on Putin’s war troubles from all sorts of sources..

    One source it didn’t have: Being handed papers in Moscow. (they did talk with recuperating Russian soldiers by telephone)

    Sammy Finkelman (b13338)

  325. Time123 (fd2731) — 12/18/2022 @ 12:12 pm

    all of those can be legal or illegal depending on the circumstances

    and, illegal or legal has little if anything to do with whether it makes sense as a TOS

    those are simply examples of how free speech has never been the absolute that you’re dishonestly holding as a standard for Musk

    And you really are getting wound up about something that “isn’t important”

    JF (14d515)

  326. Remember what I said about twitter and free ad space? Have fun with the new policy.

    Do we think that Musk is trying to reduce Twitter’s relevance on purpose? Or is that just a happy coincidence?

    Nic (896fdf)

  327. those are simply examples of how free speech has never been the absolute that you’re dishonestly holding as a standard for Musk

    Musk is the one who foolishly claimed he was a free speech absolutist who would allow all legal speech on Twitter. I bring it up to make fun of him and his fans for being so confidently ignorant.

    I’ve been consistently saying platforms have a right to moderate content as they see fit. For whatever reasons his fans can’t accept that and keep tying themselves in knots to pretend his arbitrary decisions and changes are somehow in line with his initial claims. My current theory is they like the /idea/ of free speech and have become emotionally invested in the concept that their speech has been illegally censored.

    Also, can you give me an example of how soliciting a minor is legal speech? Are you using some definition known only to you?

    Time123 (9c022b)

  328. And you really are getting wound up about something that “isn’t important”

    I’ve also been clear that I use Twitter for entertainment & information and I find the current drama entertaining. When it stops being entertaining / informative I’ll stop using it. In fairness I doubt I’ll ever delete my account. I’ll probably just use it less if my feed
    Doesn’t have anything interesting in it.

    Entertaining isn’t the same thing as important.

    Time123 (9c022b)

  329. @325 FWO, your theory about manufacturing consent seems like a stretch. But your point about contacting potential sources is interesting. Not sure if it’s accurate or not but having a lot of ppl liked and accessible in one place was probably convenient for reporters.

    Time123 (9c022b)

  330. Also, can you give me an example of how soliciting a minor is legal speech? Are you using some definition known only to you?
    Time123 (9c022b) — 12/18/2022 @ 1:18 pm

    rolling up on a kid walking home from school and offering them candy counts as soliciting a minor to me, but maybe not you so it’s a definition known only to me

    I’m not up on solicitation law, but thinking that sort of action isn’t illegal if it’s your first time but the cops will certainly give you side eye and ask questions

    as I said, the illegal/legal aspect has nothing to do with Twitter TOS, but knowing you you’ll run this into the ground cuz maybe it’s something you can cling to

    seems a huge effort for something that “isn’t important”

    JF (14d515)

  331. From: https://news.yahoo.com/newly-released-jfk-documents-point-to-what-the-cia-was-hiding-002728388.html

    “So what was the CIA hiding all these years? The long-concealed section speaks for itself. “This piece of information was produced from a telephone tap center which we operate jointly with the office of the President of Mexico,” the memo reads, explaining how the CIA intercepted Oswald’s call to the Soviets. “It is highly secret and not known to Mexican security and law enforcement officials, who have their own center.””

    So undoubtedly they did it and the remaining documents are just the cherry on the top……case closed

    AJ_Liberty (811aff)

  332. JF, you’re correct that speech which doesn’t come close the meeting the definition of “soliciting a minor” is legal speech. As I expected, instead of just admitting your comment was wrong you’re trying to change the definitions. 😂

    Again, entertaining isn’t the same thing as important. For example Last night at dinner I spent 20 minutes talking about if a parallel hybrid would be better then a serial hybrid for a pickup. That was also not important but was entertaining.

    Time123 (9c022b)

  333. I should add, I’m a big fan or PHEV, the improvement to drive quality is very nice and for a trucks the torque will come in handy. Also you can manage torque vs tire slip more precisely with direct electric drive then with a differential.

    Time123 (9c022b)

  334. JF, you’re correct that speech which doesn’t come close the meeting the definition of “soliciting a minor” is legal speech. As I expected, instead of just admitting your comment was wrong you’re trying to change the definitions.

    this moving of goalposts — is that entertaining as well?

    JF (14d515)

  335. I’d say “name me one good reason a mentally competent adult stranger offers a child walking home from school candy”, but there isn’t one.

    steveg (533d8f)

  336. Catoggio also brought up this quote.

    The extreme antibody reaction from those who fear free speech says it all.

    By “free speech”, I simply mean that which matches the law.

    I am against censorship that goes far beyond the law.

    If people want less free speech, they will ask government to pass laws to that effect.

    Therefore, going beyond the law is contrary to the will of the people.
    –Elon Musk, 4/26/2022

    Funny how holding people accountable for what they say is somehow controversial.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  337. How do you think I’ve moved goal posts?

    Time123 (9c022b)

  338. Musk is the one who foolishly claimed he was a free speech absolutist who would allow all legal speech on Twitter. I bring it up to make fun of him and his fans for being so confidently ignorant.

    You focus on this quote and ignore other things he’s said, such as his letter to advertisers, where he said that “Twitter cannot become ‘free-for-all hellspace’, where anything can be said without consequence.”

    Here is his considered view of what Twitter can become, not limited by the bumper-sticker world of Twitter itself:

    I wanted to reach out personally to share my motivation for acquiring Twitter. There have been many speculations about why I bought Twitter and what I think about advertising. Most of it has been wrong.

    The reason I acquired Twitter is that it is important for the future civilisation to have one common digital town square, where a wide range of beliefs can be discussed in a healthy manner, without resorting to violence.

    There is currently a great danger that social media will splinter into far-right or far-left-wing echo chambers that generate more hate and divide our society.

    In the relentless pursuit of clicks, much of traditional media has fueled and catered to those polarised extremes, as they believe that is what brings in the money, but in doing so the opportunity for dialogue is lost.

    That is why I bought Twitter. I did not buy it because it was easy. I did not do it to make more money. I did it to help humanity, whom I love. And I do so with humility, recognising that failure in pursuing this goal, despite our best efforts, is a very real possibility.

    That said, Twitter cannot become ‘free-for-all hellspace’, where anything can be said without consequence. In addition to adhering to the law of the land, our platform should be warm and welcoming to all, where you can choose your desired experience as per your preference, just as you can choose, for example, to see movies or play videogames ranging from all ages to mature.

    The truth of the matter was that Twitter was becoming a place hostile to the Right and controlled by the woke Left that ran Twitter. The emails and memos from within Twitter showed that they intended to tilt to the Left and that the tilt was increasing. The current hostility reflects the Left’s loss. They’ve passed through Denial and are now at Anger.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  339. I’d say “name me one good reason a mentally competent adult stranger offers a child walking home from school candy”, but there isn’t one.

    Halloween?

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  340. The best comment I’ve read so far regarding Musk and Twitter was Allahpundit’s observation of “WTF?! Why doesn’t Musk just hire some folks to run this?” I’m pretty sure he doesn’t tell assemblers how to install bolts at Tesla.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  341. “The reason I acquired Twitter is that it is important for the future civilisation to have one common digital town square, where a wide range of beliefs can be discussed in a healthy manner, without resorting to violence.

    That is why I bought Twitter. I did not buy it because it was easy. I did not do it to make more money. I did it to help humanity, whom I love. And I do so with humility, recognising that failure in pursuing this goal, despite our best efforts, is a very real possibility.”

    He feels so strongly about this that he had to be sued and forced to purchase it.

    Davethulhu (02f479)

  342. Kevin, Your point about his more considered response is a good one. However I see little evidence that he’s attempting to create the ‘welcoming town square’ he referenced. It’s possible that he’s just really bad at it. But it seems more like he’s using twitter arbitrarily for his own vanity and spite while claiming high minded ideals.

    It’s hard to say for sure since he hasn’t really spelled out what those ideals are and what rules flow down from them.

    Maybe these are just growing pains. Maybe they’re his attempt to be entertaining so engagement stays high and advertisers stay.

    We’ll see.

    Also, FWIW Musk has every right to make twitter a tool of his spite/more right wing / whatever he likes. Anyone who doesn’t like the way he runs it is free to leave.

    Several of the people I enjoyed reading have and I’ve make accounts at Mastadon & Post so that I can keep reading their stuff. That’s how free speech and free association works.

    Time123 (37916f)

  343. He feels so strongly about this that he had to be sued and forced to purchase it.

    That was after he discovered what a complete clown show it was behind the curtain.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  344. However I see little evidence that he’s attempting to create the ‘welcoming town square’ he referenced. It’s possible that he’s just really bad at it. But it seems more like he’s using twitter arbitrarily for his own vanity and spite while claiming high minded ideals.

    I see much sound and fury from all quarters, signifying the usual. Yes, he should hire some folks to run it for him after setting down the policy goals. Where the real test will come is how he deals with EU meddling; they actually think government should make laws abridging speech.

    Also, FWIW Musk has every right to make twitter a tool of his spite/more right wing / whatever he likes. Anyone who doesn’t like the way he runs it is free to leave.

    As long as Twitter is the dominant form of communication of that type, I tend to disagree. However, if he does that, it won’t be, so my position would be moot.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  345. BTW, as Twitter or other services come under fire in more restrictive countries, I think the best approach is to say the following:

    “Dear Repressive Regime:

    In accordance with your wishes, we will not market Twitter to people in your country, nor will we accept advertisements from companies based there. We will not, however, block those residing in your country from accessing Twitter or buying products from our advertisers, even if those products compete with domestic ones whose advertisements we, again, don’t permit.

    Vaya con Dios

    Twitter”

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  346. I would think that the former Twitter execs would be grateful for Musk buying Twitter. They made a bundle and have been released from any ongoing obligation.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  347. @347, Kevin, How do you square your position that the EU shouldn’t meddle in free expression (which I share) with your position that as long as twitter is the #10 site on the internet Musk can’t just do as he pleases with it?

    Seems like they’re taking the approach you would advocate.

    Time123 (37916f)

  348. “That was after he discovered what a complete clown show it was behind the curtain.”

    If he cared about what was behind the curtain, he would have done his due diligence.

    Davethulhu (02f479)

  349. Seems like they’re taking the approach you would advocate.

    Requiring a private entity to loosen its grip is different than requiring them to tighten it.

    In the latter, both the entity and its users suffer censorship.

    In the former, the users benefit from freer speech, and the entity has only to allow others to speak more freely; there is no requirement that they, too, speak more freely.

    Now, we can get into the whole who-is-speaking argument, but I just find it a terribly cramped analysis to claim that, by me speaking, I am forcing you to speak with my words, and so I reject that as a fallacy.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  350. The problem is not that I fear a dearth of Nazis on Twitter, but that I fear that the public square is, increasingly, privately owned and if that ownership means absolute control over what may be discussed in the public square, our democracy is over.

    I would say that government is the least preferable way to assure this. Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? But the recent history of Facebook and Twitter shows that you can’t trust the private entity to avoid meddling either. They are limited — if it gets too bad they will destroy their brand — but within those limits is a wide space. Look at how far the newspapers and broadcast have drifted.

    This is not an easy task once you have concentrated power over the public square. Musk says that he will let the users choose their own ruleset/moderation levels. Perhaps that’s best.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  351. My argument is not that government should be in charge. But that it is far better for the government to restrict censorship than to impose it. There are many other options.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  352. While he was in the process of buying Twitter,, Elon Musk offered the operator of @ElonJet $5,000 to close the account. They discussed this, but he wanted $50,000, or an internship (He’s a college student)

    Sammy Finkelman (b13338)

  353. The Jan 6 committee will release its report, and all or most of the testimony it received, on Wednesday.

    I’m not entirely clear on when they will vote on referrals, Monday in open session or Tuesday in closed session, or both..

    Four referrals are to be to the House Ethics Committee, concerning members of Congress who declined or refused to give testimony to the committee..

    That could be a precedent for Republicans next year, it is said.

    They seem to be ready to say that Trump incited the riot. Which is not consistent with him wanting and expecting to go to the Capitol – at least with him intentionally inciting the riot, and besides it was planned..

    Of course, his whole cause and creating suspense hada lot to do with what happened and the suspense was entirely unjustified.

    Sammy Finkelman (b13338)

  354. About four-in-ten U.S. adults believe humanity is ‘living in the end times’

    It certainly is for the Royalists; 80 year old Dementia riddled Joe Biden, nearly 83 year old Nancy ‘I trust his judgement’ Pelosi; 83 year old Steny-swamp-shadow-Hoyer; 80 year old Mitch-have some-Coke-and-a smile-McConnell; 82 year old Jim Clyburn and 72 year old ‘Chuckie the Cheese’ Schumer. Wreck the country; die w/o any accountability is the plan. Which is why Royalist castles gets stormed.

    “Senator… don’t piss down my back and tell me it’s raining.” – Captain Fletcher [John Vernon] ‘The Outlaw Josey Wales’ 1976

    DCSCA (ecfc5d)

  355. 253. You know what else Joe Biden said recently? He claimed his uncle Frank Biden was in the Battle of the Bulge, and that he won a Purple Heart but never received it. He said that when he got elected vice president, his father, Joseph R. Biden Sr., suggested that they present the Purple Heart to his uncle because his uncle wasn’t feeling well and that could cheer him up.

    Biden got the Purple Heart (here again we maybe have a vice president with superpowers) and arranged a private ceremony with the family but said his uncle declined it saying that the true heroes were those who got killed.

    Problem with the anecdote:

    Joe Biden was elected Vice President in the Election of 2008.

    Joe Biden’s father died in Sept. 2002.

    His uncle Frank died in 1999.

    The New York Post could not find any mention of Joe Biden telling this story before, or any place that his getting a Purple Heart is mentioned. (which doesn’t rule it out, of course)

    https://nypost.com/2022/12/16/biden-claims-his-uncle-frank-won-purple-heart-but-story-doesnt-add-up/

    It did say:

    The tale involving Biden’s uncle is They milar to another emotionally impactful but false story told by then-presidential candidate Joe Biden in 2019 — this one involving a Navy captain supposedly refusing to accept a Silver Star for his heroism in Afghanistan. A Washington Post fact check from the time said Biden “jumbled elements of at least three actual events into one story of bravery, compassion, and regret that never happened.”

    The article mentions a number of false anecdotes, but does not include his claiming to have caused the firing of a Ukrainian prosecutor.

    Sammy Finkelman (b13338)

  356. which opponents of Joe Biden somehow believe.

    Sammy Finkelman (b13338)

  357. I think that social media platforms should develop levels of oversight of their users, based on those users’ Social Credit Score.

    The Social Credit Score itself should be based on such factors as productive employment, responsible participation in civic matters, stable family life, lack of history of social or sexual deviance, a good reputation with co-workers, neighbors and acquaintances, and financial credit score demonstrating a stake in society.

    The levels of oversight would range from outright denial of service to monitoring of comments to free comments subject to action only upon verified complaints.

    What do you think, comrades?

    nk (c30b01)

  358. “What do you think, comrades?”

    Have you considered applying for CEO at Twitter? Word is there might be an opening soon.

    Davethulhu (02f479)

  359. WORDLE in ONE. Genius!

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  360. @358: But it is SEARED into his memory. Such as it is.

    I wonder how much time it takes to get his OK on something, with an absolute 10 minute limit on how long he can follow a train of thought.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  361. @360. “…factors as productive employment, responsible participation in civic matters, stable family life, lack of history of social or sexual deviance, a good reputation with co-workers, neighbors and acquaintances, and financial credit score demonstrating a stake in society… The levels of oversight would range from outright denial of service to monitoring of comments to free comments subject to action only upon verified complaints.”

    Restrictions? In the ’50s they called this a country club. 😉

    “I won’t belong to any organization that would have me as a member.” – Groucho Marx

    DCSCA (bc7ae0)

  362. Like I said above, there’s no confirmation of a connection between ElonJet and the stalker, who has a weird fixation on the mother of his two kids.

    LOS ANGELES — A confrontation between a member of Elon Musk’s security team and an alleged stalker that Musk blamed on a Twitter account that tracked his jet took place at a gas station 26 miles from Los Angeles International Airport and 23 hours after the @ElonJet account had last located the jet’s whereabouts.

    Bottom line, Musk had no legitimate reason to ban ElonJet and the subsequent media types for covering the story. His best case was the retroactive banning of Lorenz for what she did in the pre-Musk era, but even that decision was seat of the pants and only made because she contacted him for a response.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  363. It’s as if banning ElonJet was a media stunt designed to generate buzz and interest…and maybe some sympathy. Can someone track the jet to help stalk Musk’s relatives? Sure, and I bet there are unwell people out there with nothing better to do.

    Should a social media curator be allowed to remove content that tracks individuals? Should it depend on whether the individual objects? Under Kevin’s theory that the government should prevent censorship, it would be on the government to establish the rule of whether there was sufficient cause to remove the site. Once government is in charge of preventing censorship, then it will be in charge of adjudicating those edge cases of politicial speech that might be considered abusive or profane. People will intentionally test the limits of what content is acceptable. I’m not sure how well that ends….

    AJ_Liberty (811aff)

  364. This is not an easy task once you have concentrated power over the public square. Musk says that he will let the users choose their own ruleset/moderation levels. Perhaps that’s best.

    Kevin M (1ea396) — 12/18/2022 @ 3:43 pm

    The thing is, you COULD, and still can, set your own moderation levels by simply blocking accounts. Some more prominent left-wing accounts are configured to not just block the accounts of people they directly block themselves, but also the followers of those whom they block, as well. Rick Wilson’s account, for example, seems to be set up like this.

    The turning point, at least as far as Twitter is concerned, was the publication of Sarah Jeong’s “The Internet of Garbage,” which provided the framework for justifying the banning of social media accounts, and Twitter bringing on rad-left ding-dong Anita Sarkeesian as a “Trust and Safety” consultant in the wake of GamerGate.

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d)

  365. Bottom line, Musk had no legitimate reason to ban ElonJet and the subsequent media types for covering the story.

    The pre-Musk banning of various accounts on politically partisan grounds never seemed to conjure up such ire from the same folks.

    Speech that consists of tracking someone’s whereabouts and reporting about it isn’t exactly a stellar free speech hill to fight and die on, but go for it Montagu.

    JF (62685a)

  366. Sorry, Paul, I think Musk had a perfectly legitimate reason. Maybe I can’t get a judge to enjoin you from telling everybody in town where I’ve been, but I can keep you from doing it from my front stoop.

    nk (ad64a9)

  367. I think Twitter is wierd.

    I think Musk is wierd.

    The progressives really thought Twitter was “theirs” rather than a business and the raging and gnashing of teeth since they lost their plaything has been something to see.

    I don’t think a Trusth Social version of Twitter is going to be any improvement. Nor would Twitter run by a less colorful character be any less of a cesspool. Twitter engages the wrong part of us. Maybe scientists can tell us why someday.

    Appalled (03f53c)

  368. Bottom line, Musk had no legitimate reason to ban ElonJet and the subsequent media types for covering the story

    He owns the site and that account annoyed him so he banned it. Journalists writing about it also annoyed him so he banned them. Another journalist is a just a generally annoying and obnoxious person so he banned her. People linking to other social medial sites (Facebook, Mastadon, Post, etc) annoyed / threatened him so he banned that. Lots of people whose opinion he respected threw a snit fit about that so he change back.

    He owns twitter and can do with it as he pleases. That seems pretty legitimate to me. If you want to post in Musk’s house you comport your self by Musk’s rules. The rules are CalvinBall but again. His site, his rules. If you don’t Iike it you can go and post elsewhere.

    Time123 (982a2e)

  369. My argument is not that government should be in charge. But that it is far better for the government to restrict censorship than to impose it.

    Seems like forcing someone to publish speech they oppose could be fairly oppressive. If I owned twitter (or a company that designs websites, or a cake shop) I would be upset if I had to make speech I oppose.

    Time123 (982a2e)

  370. I really hope Musk stays on as CEO of twitter or, if he does step down I hope he continues to be highly involved.

    Time123 (982a2e)

  371. For DCSCA:

    “Our sense of wisdom and our sense of morality both are diminished because we live under what Michael Oakeshott called rationalism, the misbegotten belief that an authentic and organic society can be organized and managed by means of abstract formal models and that the complexities of social life can be approached as though they were geometry proofs. Life lived that way is life lived in all things and at all times de novo, life lived in an eternal Year Zero. Culture is a kind of accumulated wealth that lives in our minds and sensibilities, and we have found ourselves through our own actions culturally—intellectually, spiritually—disinherited. It is not as though we have blown through our cultural savings account in some kind of spendthrift spree—more like that we have forgotten where the bank is located.”

    DRJ (676a53)

  372. nk understands even if you refuse.

    DRJ (676a53)

  373. nk,

    I don’t want social media to have that kind of information about me or anyone, but IMO what you suggest is that people be judged by their reputations. That is what happens in our communities. It is harder to know someone’s online reputation or, stated another way, it is easier online to escape one’s real reputation.

    DRJ (676a53)

  374. Thank you, DRJ, you are always kind.

    nk (ad64a9)

  375. 290. AllahNick:

    Anyone else in Musk’s position would have quickly hired a CEO and assembled a team to execute his vision for the site while he turned his attention back to Tesla and SpaceX. Instead he seems to be working the dials himself, needlessly and manically. It’s as if Jeff Bezos insisted on personally copy editing everything that appears in the Washington Post.

    All things considered, Elon would have been better off getting addicted to heroin than to Twitter.

    Elon Musk has listened to AllahNick.

    Last night he started another one of his Twitter polls on whether he should quit as CEO, and the votes are going against him. He says he will abide by the poll results. (He warns people howeveragainst getting what they wish for)

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/elon-musks-twitter-poll-shows-users-want-him-to-step-down-11671449123

    Elon Musk’s Twitter Poll Shows Users Want Him to Step Down as CEO

    After billionaire asks on social-media platform whether he should stay or go, 57.5% of respondents say he should go

    …Updated Dec. 19, 2022 10:37 am ET

    More than 17 million users had voted by the time the poll on the platform closed after 6 a.m. ET, with 57.5% saying he should leave as head of the company. Mr. Musk, who in October closed a $44 billion deal for Twitter, had said when he launched the Twitter poll on Sunday that he would abide by the results.

    Time123 (982a2e) — 12/19/2022 @ 7:29 am

    I really hope Musk stays on as CEO of twitter or, if he does step down I hope he continues to be highly involved.

    It sounds like that there’s still time to vote, if you are a user of Twitter.

    Davethulhu (02f479) — 12/18/2022 @ 6:34 pm

    Have you considered applying for CEO at Twitter? Word is there might be an opening soon.

    Someone has volunteered. Musk warned him, however, that it will be a pain in the neck, and his salary will be $0.

    https://www.kcra.com/article/elon-musk-twitter-poll-results-voters-say-step-down/42283384#:~:text=at%20Wedbush%20Securities.-,Replying%20to%20a%20tweet%20Sunday%2C%20in%20which%20MIT%20artificial%20intelligence,lane%20to%20bankruptcy%20since%20May.%22

    Replying to a tweet Sunday, in which MIT artificial intelligence researcher Lex Fridman said he would take the CEO job, Musk hinted he hasn’t been completely happy with his new gig.

    “You must like pain a lot,” Musk tweeted, noting the company “has been in the fast lane to bankruptcy since May.”

    I heard about the salary being zero from something broadcast.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  376. Can someone explain to me the rules of soccer? I watched the ZWorld ZVup AZFinal (or partially watched it) from the 92 minute point on.

    Fox kept on showing 8 minutes left.

    The score was 2-2 (France had gatten two goals after Argentina had tow goals.

    Then both got agoal in overtime.

    After overtime they had some kind of match.

    Argentina won that 4-2 (although the score was still 3-3.)

    I don’t think anybody gets a silver medal. This is not the Olympics. The next World Cup will be in 3/12 years (after initially scheduling the World Cup for the summer, they thought better of it and moved it to November adnd December)

    Meanwhile Qatar is threatening economic retaliation for investigation of bribery.

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/qatar-warns-brussels-bribery-allegations-could-impact-energy-deals-with-europe-11671381521

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  377. “Our sense of wisdom and our sense of morality both are diminished because we live under what Michael Oakeshott called rationalism, the misbegotten belief that an authentic and organic society can be organized and managed by means of abstract formal models and that the complexities of social life can be approached as though they were geometry proofs. Life lived that way is life lived in all things and at all times de novo, life lived in an eternal Year Zero

    It gets worse.

    Having a problem finding dissenters. they look for imaginary dissenters (in the recent past.) Because it is not in fact rationaiistic. It’s a power play.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/19/us/james-webb-telescope-gay-rights.html

    Did the former head of NASA discriminate against gay people? One physicist tried to rebut the accusation, only to find himself the target of attacks.

    …Hakeem Oluseyi, who is now the president of the National Society of Black Physicists, was sympathetic to these critics. Then he delved into archives and talked to historians and wrote a carefully sourced essay in Medium in 2021 that laid out his surprising findings.

    “I can say conclusively,” Dr. Oluseyi wrote, “that there is zero evidence that Webb is guilty of the allegations against him.”

    That, he figured, would be that. He was wrong.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  378. They loved the goalposts.

    Now they were blaming James Webb for what other people did at NASA and at the State Department.

    But theold accusation still remains:

    Several prominent astrophysicists in interviews supported Dr. Oluseyi but declined to talk publicly. “People err on the side of prudence, which is to say they don’t speak up,” Dr. Gates noted. “When a campaign is aimed at denigrating a professional reputation, that is the inevitable effect.”

    Dr. Oluseyi is aware of the risk of damage to his reputation. For just a moment, he sounded plaintive.

    “Look, I didn’t care about James Webb — he’s not my uncle,” Dr. Oluseyi said. “I had no motivation to exonerate. Once I found the truth, what was I supposed to do?”

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  379. Time123 (9c022b) — 12/18/2022 @ 2:00 pm

    How do you think I’ve moved goal posts?

    You haven;t.

    The critics of James Webb did:

    … Mr. Webb did not lead efforts to oust gays; there was not yet a gay rights movement in 1949; and to apply the term homophobe is to use a word out of time and reflects nothing Mr. Webb is known to have written or said.

    “The activists who say that James Webb should have stood up and spoken against the purges are anachronistic,” said Dr. Johnson, whose Twitter handle is @gayhistoryprof. “No one in government could stand up at that time and say ‘This is wrong.’ And that includes gay people.”

    In 1953, President Dwight D. Eisenhower signed an executive order that essentially barred gay Americans from federal employment. It applied to all federal agencies and remained in effect throughout the 1960s, when Mr. Webb led NASA. In 1963, police arrested a NASA budget analyst, Clifford Norton, in an anti-gay sting in Washington. He was forced out of his job.

    Critics say Mr. Webb stood silent. Mr. Odom’s report for NASA, however, found no evidence Mr. Webb knew of this case in an agency of many thousands.

    First they accused him of being a strong supporter of a federal “security” employment policy — then they attacked him for not loudly opposing it.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  380. That goalposts question was addressed to someone else about another matter before I made my own reference to moving goalposts.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  381. There are too many defectors who are allowed to redefect and get killed. Two people got killed by Saddam Hussein. (his son in laws who had sought asylum in Jordan)

    One was a Russian prisoner of war who spoke to Ukrainian newspapers (and the New York Times which did not publish anything from him while he was alive.)

    He was a convicted murderer who had been recruited by the Wagner Group (which is recruiting, a lot of convicts from prisons and sending them into a meat grinder) He had surrendered after two days in Ukraine.

    He was exchanged in a prisoner swap. In fact, I think maybe that was the reason Putin agreed to a prisoner swap: TO reinforce his message about betrayal..

    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2022/12/16/world/europe/russia-putin-war-failures-ukraine.html

    More than 20 years into a murder sentence, Yevgeny Nuzhin saw his chance at salvation swoop in by helicopter.

    Mr. Prigozhin — the close confidant of Mr. Putin, known for stirring up trouble across the Middle East and Africa with his mercenary army, Wagner — came to Mr. Nuzhin’s prison south of Moscow in August, looking for recruits….

    …He also issued a warning: Anyone thinking of deserting his forces once in Ukraine, he said in the video, would be shot.

    Mr. Nuzhin accepted Mr. Prigozhin’s offer, but ignored the warning.

    After two days at the front, where he spent his time collecting the bodies of dead Wagner soldiers, he used the cover of darkness to slip away and surrender to Ukrainian troops.

    “What good has Putin done in the time that he has been in power? Has he done anything good?” Mr. Nuzhin told The Times after being taken into Ukrainian custody. “I think this war is Putin’s grave.”

    ….Mindful of the pressures on prisoners of war and the risks they face, The Times has chosen to withhold their names. And, as with the other people we interviewed, we use documents and other evidence to vet their claims.

    In Mr. Nuzhin’s case, we did not publish our interview with him, but he also spoke to Ukrainian media, which broadcast portions of his account. Soon after, he was released in a prisoner swap — and ended up back in the hands of Wagner.

    He then appeared in a video on a pro-Russian Telegram account. In it, Mr. Nuzhin’s head was taped to a block. Looming over him was a man in camouflage, holding a sledgehammer.

    “I woke up in this basement, where I was told that I will be judged,” Mr. Nuzhin says in the video, his voice dry and gravelly. The sledgehammer then swings down and crushes his skull.

    Shortly after, Mr. Prigozhin released a statement endorsing Mr. Nuzhin’s murder.

    “Nuzhin betrayed his people, betrayed his comrades, betrayed them consciously,” the statement said. “He planned his escape. Nuzhin is a traitor.”

    A day later, asked about the video on a conference call with journalists, Mr. Peskov said, “It’s not our business.”

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  382. The thrd one d this https://nypost.com/2022/12/17/democrats-protect-mohsen-rezai-who-likely-ordered-murder-of-son/

    It involves the commander of the Revolutionary Guards for 20 years, one of the youngest of the original figures in the Iranian regime who organized the Revolutionary Guards and was indicted by Argentina for involvement in the bombing of the AMIA Jewish Community Center in Buenos Aires in 1994 that killed 85 people..

    He now became an issue because the Biden Administration has offered to remove the designation of him as a terrorist and there’s a House resolution opposing that that so far has collected 65 co-sponsors all Republicans.

    Now the defection story is that his oldest son defected. Then the CIA attempted to recruit .

    Now the Mohsen Rezai himself. That was in 2002 when the invasion of Iraq was pending and Iran feared they could be next.

    That failed and Rezai persuaded his son to come back in 2004. He protected him – there was even a standoff in 2009 when his son attemopted to come back to Iran to help in his father’s presidential campaign. .

    He was killed by a Russian in Dubai in 2011.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  383. I think Joe Biden is sometimes more inaccurate about facts than CHAT GPT

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  384. Maybe scientists can tell us why someday.

    It’s fairly simple. It allows “us” to say to “them” all the really terrible things we want to say to “them” without risking the punch in the nose that we’d get if we said it in person. This is amplified by the degree we can do this anonymously.

    I wonder if Twitter would be improved by having every member’s real name and home address information available to any interested member (with a minute’s delay between requests to throttle harvesting). Or maybe there would just be an uptick in assault.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  385. Seems like forcing someone to publish speech they oppose could be fairly oppressive.

    As I said upthread, I reject the argument that allowing a user’s speech to propagate makes it your speech. If you are not liable for it, it’s someone else’s speech. Period.

    If I’m the college president and some damn Rethuglican domes to speak at MY auditorium, does my allowing the bastard to speak make it my speech?

    If I’m a college student, and someone I don’t like comes to my college to speak, does my failure to drown them out with heckling make it my speech?

    These are not unreasonable extensions of your argument.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  386. DRJ #375: what an interesting essay! Thank you for linking to it. You always give me things to think about, and I am always grateful.

    To be sure, the object of your post will ignore or snark, but many of us appreciate it.

    Best wishes to you and yours this holiday season.

    Also the folks who have been kind to me, such as nk, Kevin M, and many others.

    Most of all, thank you, Patterico.

    Simon Jester (f97b12)

  387. I really hope Musk stays on as CEO of twitter or, if he does step down I hope he continues to be highly involved.

    I hope that his expressed goals for running the service can be implemented, but I think that he needs to let others handle the day-to-day. He’s too passionate to be effective in running a thing that is based on passionate expression.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  388. It’s not just Musk. The Left is upset that their CNN toy is being played with by others.

    CNN chief says ‘uninformed vitriol’ from left has been ‘stunning’

    Chris Licht, who became CEO of CNN earlier this year, said he has been surprised by the “uninformed vitriol” directed at him from liberals as he attempts to shift the network’s editorial direction, in a series of interviews with The New York Times.

    Licht took over the network in May, making a series of staffing and programmatic changes that have sparked buzz about Licht aiming for a more centrist slant.

    “The uninformed vitriol, especially from the left, has been stunning,” Licht told the Times. “Which proves my point: so much of what passes for news is name-calling, half-truths and desperation.”

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  389. Twitter Files #4 is out:
    https://twitter.com/ShellenbergerMD/status/1604871630613753856

    Can everyone please, just for a few moments, take off your partisan hats and look at this?

    Here, you have agencies pressuring twitter on content moderation on the Hunter Biden laptop story.

    I don’t care where you fall on the ideologic spectrum, but if you don’t find this troubling, then you should take remedial lessons on 1st Amendment principles and ask yourself how’d you feel if the agencies are held by your opposition party getting involved in content moderations on your political peers.

    Furthermore, former DNI Radcliff needs to speak out as this occurred during his tenure, and if he didn’t get a whiff of this, then we arguably have rogue agencies.

    whembly (d116f3)

  390. As I said upthread, I reject the argument that allowing a user’s speech to propagate makes it your speech. If you are not liable for it, it’s someone else’s speech. Period.

    If I’m the college president and some damn Rethuglican domes to speak at MY auditorium, does my allowing the bastard to speak make it my speech?

    If I’m a college student, and someone I don’t like comes to my college to speak, does my failure to drown them out with heckling make it my speech?

    These are not unreasonable extensions of your argument.

    Kevin M (1ea396) — 12/19/2022 @ 10:21 am

    If it’s a public college it’s more complicated. But assuming it’s say…bob jones university, then No, they don’t have to allow a pro-choice speaker or a SSM advocate to use their auditorium.

    The question about hecklers veto isn’t a logical extension.

    Time123 (982a2e)

  391. Speech that consists of tracking someone’s whereabouts and reporting about it isn’t exactly a stellar free speech hill to fight and die on, but go for it Montagu.

    It’s not my hill, it’s Musk’s.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  392. Time,

    I take it then, that you view the decency standards imposed on broadcast TV to be unconstitutional. I assume that you’d also say that about the “Fairness Doctrine”, which compelled broadcast stations to offer time to competing views. You’d also back a network that refused to air the rebuttal to the SotU speech, or only covered one party’s convention, or refused to sell advertising to one side or the other in an election.

    If you see a “broadcast” exception, due to the frequencies used being finite, then the move to streaming would change your position to your default one of ownership absolutism.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  393. Whembly, i haven’t had a chance to read that one, but it looks like the most interesting so far.

    Time123 (982a2e)

  394. @375/376 “… but IMO what you suggest is that people be judged by their reputations.”

    Americans are: one of the most memorable moments of my life was when a lovely young Brit at a London meet and greet asked, ‘Where do you keep your guns?’ The reply: “We don’t have any guns.” Her chilling response: “All Americans have guns.” That was 50 years ago.

    ‘Culture is a kind of accumulated wealth that lives in our minds and sensibilities, and we have found ourselves through our own actions culturally—intellectually, spiritually—disinherited. It is not as though we have blown through our cultural savings account in some kind of spendthrift spree—more like that we have forgotten where the bank is located.”’

    Americans know exactly where the bank is located– and conduct transactions 24/7, 365. Pass the popcorn:

    Culture, U.S.A.:

    ‘Out here, due process is a bullet.” – Mike Kirby [John Wayne] ‘The Green Berets’ 1968

    “Go ahead, make my day.” – Harry Callahan [Clint Eastwood] ‘Sudden Impact’ 1983

    https://www.the-numbers.com/movies/franchise/Dirty-Harry#tab=summary

    Next, wander into this minefield:

    “Then you do restrict your guests to Gentiles?” – Phil Green [Gregory Peck] ‘Gentleman’s Agreement’ 1947

    Groucho was right.

    DCSCA (e131a4)

  395. Speech that consists of tracking someone’s whereabouts and reporting about it isn’t exactly a stellar free speech hill to fight and die on, but go for it Montagu.

    Suppose that Google’s EULA or Privacy standards did not prevent it, would Google making everyone’s cellphone position history public be free speech?

    Where does free speech start and where does a presumption of privacy end?

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  396. Being Evil. How we’ve come to demand a very simplistic morality from our entertainment.

    Such a hypocrite: Williamson’s opinion itself is restricted; it’s behind a Dispatch paywall. LOL.

    DCSCA (e131a4)

  397. NYT crossword for Hanukkah has casused some cross words.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  398. J6 committee refers charges against Trump

    WASHINGTON —

    The House panel investigating the Jan. 6, 2021, attack on the U.S. Capitol unanimously voted Monday to urge the Justice Department to take the unprecedented step of pursuing several potential criminal charges against former President Trump, including insurrection.

    The referral of a former president to the Justice Department for criminal charges is a first in American history. In addition to recommending Trump’s prosecution for insurrection, the committee voted on three other charges against him: obstruction of an official proceeding of Congress, knowingly and willfully making materially false statements to the federal government and conspiracy to defraud the United States.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  399. Question for the legal eagles here…
    https://twitter.com/ShellenbergerMD/status/1604908670063906817

    I’ve never heard of a federal government “reimbursement program” for complying with federal government requests.

    Is that a thing?

    How is this not flat-out bribery?

    whembly (d116f3)

  400. @402: We all knew that was coming.

    Question is – will the DOJ take that recommendation and indict the former President?

    whembly (d116f3)

  401. Were Trump to be convicted of “Insurection” (18 USC 2383)

    Whoever incites, sets on foot, assists, or engages in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States or the laws thereof, or gives aid or comfort thereto, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.

    Not only would he be barred from future office, but he would lose all annuities arising from his term as President. He might also lose Secret Service protection.

    The fine does not seem to be limited as the previous limit was repealed and not replaced.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  402. @403:

    Not everyone toadies to the administration due to ideology. Some people need cash before they’ll lie down and take it.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  403. Appalled (03f53c) — 12/19/2022 @ 6:42 am

    it’s easy to forget what Twitter added to the discourse: It was a way to bypass the media and government gatekeepers and speak to million’s unfiltered

    that’s what makes the whining over “high-profile” media figures (the wannabe gatekeepers) getting booted so ludicrous

    over time Twitter adopted the same gatekeeping that it was originally created to get around, and that’s when the wheels started to fall off

    the media much prefer a pre-Musk Twitter that adopted its gatekeeping norms and really hates a post-Musk Twitter that skirts them, and they’ll tweak Musk’s nose to make the point and dress it up as “he’s doing the same thing”, when he’s not

    JF (96f18a)

  404. will the DOJ take that recommendation and indict the former President?

    Argument for: It’s the right thing.

    Argument against: It will distract Trump from his mission to destroy the Republican Party.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  405. Is “insurrection” an actual crime?

    Kevin M (1ea396) — 12/18/2022 @ 12:47 pm

    Yes. 18 U.S. Code § 2383:

    Whoever incites, sets on foot, assists, or engages in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States or the laws thereof, or gives aid or comfort thereto, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.

    I prefer §2384 Seditious conspiracy:

    If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both.

    The problem with “incitement” is that Trump has made a free speech claim already regarding his speech on January 6th. It would be easier to prosecute him for seditious conspiracy.

    However, I don’t think he will be indicted for anything regarding January 6th, more likely an indictment involve his possession of classified information at MAL.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  406. What the referral does is give the Administration cover for an indictment. This way they aren’t out there alone if it blows up. It also lights a fire, as Biden will have to answer to his voters if he, oops, the DOJ fails to indict.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  407. Kari Lake threatens violence over what she calls stolen election. “We have a right to use our second amendment rights to stop the steal!” (DU)

    asset (981415)

  408. @402. Ashli Babbitt remains unavailable for comment.

    DCSCA (402b39)

  409. If Trump is indicted for anything related to January 6th, my prediction is that Biden will pardon him sometime in 2024.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  410. Twitter 7 FBI agent elvis chan informes twitters yuel roth that biden’s laptop is russin disinformation and ny post story should be banned. Facebook probably got the same request ;but will have to wait for congress to get proof. Former FBI lawyer jim baker now twitter lawyer was coordinating with FBI. Someone at face book and google were doing the same which congress will have to find out who. (ACE) I read both sides DU/ACE to get the real news.

    asset (981415)

  411. @409. LOL. Yes, remember when The Big Dick was barred from taking office in ’68, too?

    George Will Confirms Nixon’s Vietnam Treason

    Richard Nixon was a traitor.

    The new release of extended versions of Nixon’s papers now confirms this long-standing belief, usually dismissed as a “conspiracy theory” by Republican conservatives. Now it has been substantiated by none other than right-wing columnist George Will.

    Nixon’s newly revealed records show for certain that in 1968, as a presidential candidate, he ordered Anna Chennault, his liaison to the South Vietnam government, to persuade them to refuse a cease-fire being brokered by President Lyndon Johnson.

    Nixon’s interference with these negotiations violated President John Adams’s 1797 Logan Act, banning private citizens from intruding into official government negotiations with a foreign nation.

    Published as the 40th Anniversary of Nixon’s resignation approaches, Will’s column confirms that Nixon feared public disclosure of his role in sabotaging the 1968 Vietnam peace talks. Will says Nixon established a “plumbers unit” to stop potential leaks of information that might damage him, including documentation that he believed was held by the Brookings Institute, a liberal think tank. The Plumbers’ later break-in at the Democratic National Committee led to the Watergate scandal that brought Nixon down.

    Nixon’s sabotage of the Vietnam peace talks was confirmed by transcripts of FBI wiretaps. On November 2, 1968, LBJ received an FBI report saying Chernnault told the South Vietnamese ambassador that “she had received a message from her boss: saying the Vietnamese should “hold on, we are gonna win.”

    As Will confirms, Vietnamese did “hold on,” the war proceeded and Nixon did win, changing forever the face of American politics—with the shadow of treason permanently embedded in its DNA.

    The treason came in 1968 as the Vietnam War reached a critical turning point. President Lyndon Johnson was desperate for a truce between North and South Vietnam.

    LBJ had an ulterior motive: his Vice President, Hubert Humphrey, was in a tight presidential race against Richard Nixon. With demonstrators in the streets, Humphrey desperately needed a cease-fire to get him into the White House.

    Johnson had it all but wrapped it. With a combination of gentle and iron-fisted persuasion, he forced the leaders of South Vietnam into an all-but-final agreement with the North. A cease-fire was imminent, and Humphrey’s election seemed assured.

    But at the last minute, the South Vietnamese pulled out. LBJ suspected Nixon had intervened to stop them from signing a peace treaty.

    https://www.commondreams.org/views/2014/08/12/george-will-confirms-nixons-vietnam-treason

    “Impeach With Honor!”

    DCSCA (402b39)

  412. As you can see (405), Rip, I did look that up.

    Conspiracy requires proof that a scheme was concocted, and that treasonous acts were the desired result. Since there is no free speech right to incite — Brandenburg v. Ohio (1969) — the claim to free speech extends only to speech not intended to incite.

    Since the law does not even require intent, simply proving that the speech DID incite is enough. I think that’s easier than proving a conspiracy to thwart the United States.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  413. Even if Nixon personally told the Vietnamese to delay peace talks, it’s not treason. Only if he did so because he agreed with their beliefs AND gave them aid and comfort (he did neither) would it be treason.

    But I’ve said that before and you’ll repeat this drivel again as if I hadn’t.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  414. As you can see (405), Rip, I did look that up.

    Sorry.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  415. No worries

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  416. Sorry Kevin but 5th Circuit Judge Oldham’s assertion that the First Amendment protects only the right to speak, not to engage in editorial discretion, is fantastically wrong and I doubt it will be a view that the Supreme Court will embrace…..because it crushes a lot of precedent.

    Here’s my argument. In Miami Herald Publishing Co. v. Tornillo what was protected was “the function of editors,” not the speech that constituted the outcome of that function. We can talk about op-eds (which the editorial staff may not agree with at all) and how the Court has ruled that just because a newspaper prints an op-ed from one candidate, does not require the paper to print an opposing op-ed from another candidate. The paper has editorial discretion. Further, case after case has shown the same when it comes to ads that are placed in a paper: Ads that may not at all reflect the opinions of the paper’s editorial staff. Yet printing one ad does not require the paper to publish a competing ad…it doesn’t have to print all comers. They are free to choose. A fantastic line from Tornillo references the discretion even if the paper had infinite space (a useful look ahead in time to the vastness of the internet and the irrelevance of how many TB’s of storage is available!).

    Now you may argue that papers produce speech, while Twitter only carries speech….like a telephone. But this isn’t right, because you acknowledge that Twitter has a right to enforce community standards and is free to remove spam, scams, and abusive posts. So they do edit….even if that editing is after the fact. The choice of how much editing that they do is in fact editorial discretion. They could choose to analyze each post before putting it on their network, but obviously that would be impractical. The phone company has no interest in “enforcing community standards” for calls that are not shared on their system. Twitter does have that interest.

    Again, Kevin’s theory of speech is that of course Twitter can take down the Nazi stuff or the terrorist stuff, but it can’t remove the speech I care about (see Scalia’s countering argument in RAV v. St Paul). But what rule does the court fashion to tease out the very, very bad from the not-so-bad? It’s really not clear from Judge Oldham or from Judge Kevin. But, maybe it’s because Twitter is different than papers. But hold on, in Hurley the Court ruled that a parade organizer….which is very different from a newspaper…could discriminate against a gay float even though such editorial decisions were rare….the right to make them was not somehow lost from disuse.

    Finally, Kevin says nothing about Halleck, a recent decision led by Kavanaugh which seemed very contrary to dismissing editorial discretion. Will Kavanaugh be willing to pivot so soon? Too, Kavanaugh’s Circuit opinion on common carriage is that the medium is just a “dumb pipe” and as much as dumb seems relevant to Twitter, Twitter is more than a fiber optic cable or the guts of the internet….it ranks posts to cater to the tastes of its viewers. There is a process for removing objectionable material. Section 230 is about encouraging platforms to curate and editorialize…to immunize them from must-carry claims. But now magically the law means something new. I just don’t think so….

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  417. What is an appropriate fine for a billionaire convicted of insurrection while President? Would $1 billion be too much?

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  418. AJ, any decision on editorial control based on the newspaper era is inherently about limited space, not just speech.

    But what rule does the court fashion to tease out the very, very bad from the not-so-bad?

    There are such limits NOW on speech. See this summary. There seems to be no problem separating “pictures of children” from child porn, or death threats from angry words.

    Now, are swastikas forbidden but the hammer & sickle OK? There was a guy at a former workplace who persisted in wearing a Mao cap with a hammer & sickle emblem. The boss didn’t object although other workers did. If a different boss fired him, or made him take it off, would it be OK? He was not customer-facing (at which point it would indeed be the company’s speech).

    Question: If someone on Twitter called Biden a senile traitorous imbecile and thought “someone” ought to “take him out” would anyone think that was Twitter’s speech?

    Question: If everything on Twitter that was critical of Biden was removed, would anyone think that was Twitter’s speech.

    (Answers: No and Yes). It is not what is let through that is speech, but what is NOT let through.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  419. AJ,

    Halleck is a good case and seems to hinge on whether the company, which the government granted a monopoly on the cable public access, is operating in an area traditionally a government function, and thereby a state actor (e.g. policing). Left untouched is the degree to which the banned group’s on-air criticism of the monopoly-holder is protected “petitioning” of the government’s choice in whom to grant this monopoly.

    It was 5-4, and the dissent viewed MNN as a state actor. I’ll note that Justice Thomas has had misgivings about this kind of thing of late, even when it comes to wholly private operators. We also don’t know how Barrett views this kind of thing, nor how Alito and Barrett might be swayed by Justice Thomas.

    I will also note that the government COMPELS the cable company to offer this public-access channel, so at least here “the cable company’s speech” (as you argue it) is compelled.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  420. But hold on, in Hurley the Court ruled that a parade organizer….which is very different from a newspaper…could discriminate against a gay float even though such editorial decisions were rare….the right to make them was not somehow lost from disuse.

    The participants in a parade necessarily reflect the sponsor of that parade, and there are no hidden corners or massive panopoly of sights and sounds. Every spectator will see every participant and must assume that they were invited.

    The gestalt is the speech; the parts are not divisible. And again, there are plenty of other limitations on parade participation, including size, quality and time. There is actually very little similarity between this and Twitter.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  421. Now, with Musk, it doesn’t matter which one of us is right as Musk recognizes the problem with censored public squares and is attempting (or claiming to) reduce such “editing” to the minimum possible, and do so without taking sides.

    And of course all the usual suspects (those who want to push porn/spam/scams/personal abuse and those who want to block all badthink) are doing their level best to oppose this. I find it amusing that so many people think that the RFing, doxxing, trolling and other attacks of late have to do with some high-minded principles. They don’t.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  422. What is an appropriate fine for a billionaire convicted of insurrection while President? Would $1 billion be too much?

    Kevin M (1ea396) — 12/19/2022 @ 12:57 pm

    Who cares? Under 18 U.S.C. § 2383 someone can be imprisoned up to 10 years; under the seditious conspiracy statute someone can be imprisoned for up to 20 years.

    If Trump is convicted, (a BIG IF), he probably couldn’t buy his way out of prison time. I would rather see that.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  423. I will also note that the government COMPELS the cable company to offer this public-access channel, so at least here “the cable company’s speech” (as you argue it) is compelled.

    Kevin M (1ea396) — 12/19/2022 @ 1:24 pm

    In exchange for a government sanctioned monopoly.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  424. Could a rule be fashioned regarding so-called “public squares” where it was understood that the provider was NOT speaking? That all editing that was necessary was ministerial, or even housekeeping, such as removing spam, scams and the patently illegal?

    If acceptability of content was an issue, user tiers and rules for those tiers could be established, although I don’t think an opinion-based tier selection would be a good idea. Maybe users who wanted the Hellscape tier should be allowed their choice, at least until it became tiresome.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  425. In exchange for a government sanctioned monopoly.

    Actually there are no sanctioned cable monopolies and haven’t been for several decades. The FCC disallowed them in the 1980’s. Cities are not allowed to protect the incumbent carrier. However, once there is an incumbent cable operator, any second company will be fighting for customers at the get-go and the numbers don’t usually pan out.

    So, the competition to the incumbent cable operator has been the incumbent phone company in most places, competing both directly and with streaming. There are also fiber companies, resellers and others competing for customers. Recently, cellular companies are offering 5G service to the home, with full internet, streaming etc.

    So, no monopoly.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  426. Kevin M (1ea396) — 12/19/2022 @ 1:38 pm

    I find it amusing that so many people think that the RFing, doxxing, trolling and other attacks of late have to do with some high-minded principles. They don’t.

    What is RFing?

    The only definition I found was Rear-Facing (children in car seats)

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  427. 416. Kevin M (1ea396) — 12/19/2022 @ 12:38 pm

    Since the law does not even require intent, simply proving that the speech DID incite is enough.

    Mens rea is probably needed, but anyway, it must do more than incite – it must be foreseeable that it would..

    The committee mostly stuck to what was true (although it carefully omitted Trump and Giuliani’s and Eastman’s actual plan for that day — the objections and the debates and the votes which would have delayed the certification at least 12 hours.

    They tried to make Trump’s desire to be present consistent with knowing a riot was going to happen or had happened, which it is not Are they trying to make people believe that Trump was going to lead the charge, like maybe Teddy Roosevelt with the Rough Riders in Cuba in 1898?

    But there was one statement that was glaringly wrong – outright false in fact.

    That was – I’ll get the transcript tomorrow – by one female member of the committee that Trump and the rioters had the same aim.

    They did not!

    The aim of the rioters was to disrupt the proceedings in Congress.

    The aim of Trump was to influence the proceedings in Congress.

    That makes all the difference in the world.

    Trump needed to do more than stop the certification of Joe Biden as having been elected president.

    To stay in office, he needed to be certified himself.

    Otherwise, the Speaker of the House, Nancy Pelosi, would have become Acting President on noon of January 20. 2021.

    Stopping the certification would not have extended his time in office by even one second.

    thesurely knew that if all he succeeded in wa

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  428. 415. DCSCA (402b39) — 12/19/2022 @ 12:35 pm

    A cease-fire was imminent,

    I don’t think that’s true.

    Maybe a one-sided ceasefire/bombing halt?

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  429. What about the Democrats in 2020, conspiring to prevent the authorization of a Covid vaccine before November 3, 2020?

    But Trump doesn’t think it made that much of a difference.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  430. @406

    @403:

    Not everyone toadies to the administration due to ideology. Some people need cash before they’ll lie down and take it.

    Kevin M (1ea396) — 12/19/2022 @ 12:13 pm

    What I meant…

    Is it a normal thing for the government, (ie, FBI) to pay 3rd party companies to assist in any sort of investigation?

    I understand they do for informants…

    But, directly paying private companies to comply with non-court ordered directives??? Is THAT a thing?

    Many are wigging out on this on social media, and I’m like “isn’t that normal??”

    whembly (d116f3)

  431. 416. Kevin M (1ea396) — 12/19/2022 @ 12:38 pm

    Since the law does not even require intent, simply proving that the speech DID incite is enough.

    Mens rea is probably needed, but anyway, it must do more than incite – it must be foreseeable that it would..

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 12/19/2022 @ 2:37 pm

    This. If the charge is that Trump incited the rebellion or insurrection, the failure of the insurrection statute to mention intent or foreseeability is immaterial. Intent and foreseeability are constitutional requirements. They’ll be read into the statute.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  432. Except, I think a DC jury would convict Trump Trump and the DC appellate would uphold.

    Who knows what the SCOTUS would do…

    But, if it sticks… man, I hope Dems are ready for the rules applied to them.

    whembly (d116f3)

  433. If Trump is indicted for anything related to January 6th, my prediction is that Biden will pardon him sometime in 2024.

    It’s my prediction that Vice President DeSantis will deliver the eulogy at Biden’s funeral; President Trump will have a scheduling conflict; out of the country formally ending the Korean War.

    DCSCA (3d6e71)

  434. Who knows what the SCOTUS would do…

    Find and reveal their leaker within?

    Nah…

    …and Alito smiled.

    DCSCA (3d6e71)

  435. What is RFing?

    The first word is “rat”, the second word hits the filter.

    See Donald Segretti

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  436. But Trump doesn’t think it made that much of a difference.

    A lot of things didn’t make “much of a difference.” But he lost the election by a handful of votes, so it didn’t take much of a difference. Some of those things were within Trump’s control.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  437. If Trump is convicted of something short of sedition, I expect every GOP candidate to at least say they would consider a pardon if elected. I very much doubt that Biden’s base would permit him to pardon Trump.

    Let’s ask asset.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  438. Whembly @434:

    Yes, I actually understood that. I was looking at it from the other side. No, soliciting censorship for free or for pay is not normal, but we already knew what Twitter was and they were just haggling over the price.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  439. Mens rea is probably needed, but anyway, it must do more than incite – it must be foreseeable that it would..

    There must be a clear and present danger that it would.

    nk (665f1c)

  440. Roberts issues stay of Title 42 termination, pending full court review.

    To the claim that it prevents people from asking for asylum after crossing illegally, my response is “Don’t cross illegally.” If asylum is what they wish to claim, they can go to an official crossing point and make that claim. But what they want is to be able to claim it after they’re caught trying to sneak in. The “magic words” theory.

    Rubbish.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  441. There must be a clear and present danger that it would.

    Well, fine. Seditious conspiracy and insurrection work together on that. Prove one, prove the other. I prefer the insurrection charge (and so does the J6 committee) because it includes a permanent bar to holding office. There is no guarantee that Trump would be jailed.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  442. If Trump is convicted of something short of sedition, I expect every GOP candidate to at least say they would consider a pardon if elected. I very much doubt that Biden’s base would permit him to pardon Trump.

    Let’s ask asset.

    Kevin M (1ea396) — 12/19/2022 @ 3:31 pm

    You think asset is Biden’s base?

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  443. Trump’s post-election conduct is a mess. They’re not saying it outright, but there’s a hint-hint nudge-nudge allusion to the relationship between him and former OAN newsreader Natalie Harp.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  444. Except, I think a DC jury would convict Trump Trump and the DC appellate would uphold.

    Who knows what the SCOTUS would do…

    But, if it sticks… man, I hope Dems are ready for the rules applied to them.

    whembly (d116f3) — 12/19/2022 @ 3:14 pm

    For that threat to sting, the status quo would have to be that the GOP forbears such recrimination if Trump isn’t wrongfully convicted and punished. In light of the Trump wing’s pronouncements of their intent to impeach/prosecute/imprison everyone from Joe Biden to Earl Warren, I’m not sure that status quo can credibly be asserted.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  445. You think asset is Biden’s base?

    I have no idea what Biden’s base is. It seems to have been the People Who Don’t Like Trump. Going forward he has to deal with a base that is rather to his Left, as uncontrollable as Trump’s GOP base is.

    Neither “base” is actually a majority of the party, but they’re the ones who stuff envelopes, make phone calls, walk precincts and savage the other side on Twitter.

    From what asset says, many in the Democrat side are really upset at Biden’s namby-pamby coddling of Rethuglicans, who should all be put up against the wall or some such.

    Him pardoning Trump would be a problem.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  446. Rubbish.

    Which sums up the berobed bureaucrats and their stunning incompetence at keeping track of their own paperwork nor find the leaker of same in almost a year yet deem to rule on how the rest of America should live very nicely.

    “Truth is stranger than fiction, judgie wudgie.” – Curly Howard ‘Disorder In The Court’ 1936

    DCSCA (5ec3d3)

  447. Man, DCSCA, when you have a drum you sure like to bang it.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  448. Roberts issues stay of Title 42 termination, pending full court review.

    insurrection by proxy put on hold

    even with title 42, El Paso has declared a state of emergency

    but, yeah… back to Trump talk

    JF (96f18a)

  449. Elon Musk Named Most Exhausting Person of 2022

    Trump demands recount.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  450. RIP Shirley Watts (84). Widow of Charlie Watts (married in 1964) and also a noted Arabian horse breeder.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  451. The anti-Trump referral that seemsat first glance to be most valid is conspit=ring to issue a false statement.

    This was an attempt to get the Department of Justice to issue a statement saying they had found substantial evidence of election fraud (or some wording similar to that) when itwas exactly the opposite of what he had been told by Bill Barr and others.

    Trump’s part in the conspiracy was planning to name Jeffrey Clark Acting attorney General.

    And then, when most of the upper level of DOJ threatened to resign, dropping the idea.

    That sort of thing — planning something which never happened – seems dangerous to criminalize. How many times has a president proposed doing something illegal, and then been stopped by objections?

    This way, any attempt to do something illegal would already be a felony from which he could not retreat. This doesn’t sound right.

    The other overtacts were somebody actually writing sch a statement (Trump’s involvement in this is unknown) and listing Jeffrey Clark as Acting Attorney General on a White House log.

    Incidentally, DOJ rules do not allow such direct contact between lower ranking DOJ officials and the president.

    Sammy Finkelman (b761f8)

  452. Of course, the illegal act that Trump wanted to do (have DOJ issue afalse statement) was extremely self-serving. It may not have been clearto Trump it was illegal, if indeed it is codified in law, but it was certainly unethical.

    And it doesn’t matter whether he believed there was fraud – DOJ had not found it (unless he believed Bill Barr was lying to him when he said they had not found any sufficient to affect the election))

    Sammy Finkelman (b761f8)

  453. In perspective, in the grand scheme of things, in regard to the national defense and and general welfare of the United States, is Trump more than a case of diaper rash? Maybe a severe case for the Republican Party, but anything more for that?

    nk (665f1c)

  454. I have no idea what Biden’s base is.

    Wilmington.

    Or is it Scranton this week.

    DCSCA (3cb2d2)

  455. Biden claims his uncle Frank won Purple Heart but story doesn’t add up

    President Biden claimed Friday that his uncle Frank Biden won the Purple Heart for his actions during the Battle of the Bulge in World War II — but there’s no evidence of the award and key details of the story are chronologically impossible.

    The 80-year-old commander-in-chief has a habit of sharing false or embellished personal anecdotes to build a connection with his audiences and told his latest apparent tall tale during largely unscripted remarks to veterans in Delaware.

    “My dad, when I got elected vice president [in 2008], he said, ‘Joey, Uncle Frank fought in the Battle of the Bulge.’ He was not feeling very well now — not because of the Battle of the Bulge, but he said, ‘and he won the Purple Heart and he never received it. He never got it. Do you think you could help him get it? We will surprise him,’” the president recalled.

    “So I got him the Purple Heart. He had won it in the Battle of the Bulge. And I remember he came over the house and I came out and [my father] said, ‘Present it to him, okay?’ We had the family there,” Biden went on.

    “I said, ‘Uncle Frank, you’ve won this and I wanted to —’ and he said, ‘I don’t want the damn thing.’ No, I’m serious, he said, ‘I don’t want it.’ I said, ‘What’s the matter, Uncle Frank? You earned it.’ He said, ‘Yeah, but the others died. The others died. I lived. I don’t want it.’”

    Biden told the story apparently to make a point about the humility of veterans, but the known facts indicate it’s not true. Biden’s father, Joseph R. Biden Sr., died in September 2002 — more than six years before his son was elected vice president. Frank Biden, Joe Sr.’s brother, died in 1999.

    The White House did not immediately respond to The Post’s request for comment. The Defense Department referred questions to the Army — the military branch in which Frank Biden served — but the Army did not immediately respond.

    Frank Biden’s tombstone does not identify him as a Purple Heart honoree, nor does his obituary. A partial registry of known Purple Heart recipients also doesn’t note anyone by that name receiving the award, though that database is not comprehensive. The Post’s librarians could not locate prior references to Frank Biden receiving the Purple Heart, which recognizes wounded and killed soldiers, in the Nexis archive and the Factba.se repository of Joe Biden’s public statements also doesn’t contain prior references. he tale involving Biden’s uncle is similar to another emotionally impactful but false story told by then-presidential candidate Joe Biden in 2019 — this one involving a Navy captain supposedly refusing to accept a Silver Star for his heroism in Afghanistan. A Washington Post fact check from the time said Biden “jumbled elements of at least three actual events into one story of bravery, compassion, and regret that never happened.”

    Biden made other dubious remarks Friday, including telling veterans that “twice as president” he had been “in and out of Afghanistan and Iraq and those areas” — despite never visiting Afghanistan and Iraq as president and getting no closer than the Palestinian city of Bethlehem, almost 300 miles from the Iraqi border.

    Biden is the oldest-ever US president and his mental acuity frequently is a matter of public debate — particularly after he asked “Where’s Jackie?” as he searched for the late Rep. Jackie Walorski (R-Ind.) in September, despite publicly mourning her death and even calling her family to offer his condolences in August. Multiple times this year, Biden has incorrectly said that his son Beau Biden died in Iraq.

    But Biden also has a decades-long habit of stretching the truth and ended his first presidential campaign in 1987 due to a scandal involving plagiarism of speeches and a law school paper. Then-Senator Biden infamously borrowed British politician Neil Kinnock’s family history — with Biden changing geographic details to falsely claim in speeches that “my ancestors … worked in the coal mines of Northeast Pennsylvania and would come up after 12 hours and play football for four hours.” Unlike Kinnock, who had used the line to describe his own family in Wales, Biden’s ancestors did not mine coal.

    Biden also falsely claimed in 1987 that he “graduated with three degrees from college,” was named “the outstanding student in the political science department,” “went to law school on a full academic scholarship — the only one in my class to have a full academic scholarship” and ”ended up in the top half” of his class. None of those claims were true. Since becoming president, Biden has shared a number of false or embellished stories in an apparent attempt to connect with his audiences.

    In October, Biden dubiously claimed that “I was sort of raised in the Puerto Rican community at home, politically” while visiting the US territory, despite the fact that there was only an extremely small Puerto Rican community in Delaware when he launched his career.

    At a fire-safety event the same month, Biden said firefighters nearly died extinguishing a blaze in his kitchen in 2004, prompting the local fire department to describe the fire as relatively “insignificant” for trained professionals.

    Biden admitted in September to visiting South African President Cyril Ramaphosa that “I wasn’t arrested” trying to visit Nelson Mandela during the Apartheid era, despite saying so at least three times in 2020. But Biden proceeded to say that “I got stopped, prevented from moving” during a congressional trip to the small country Lesotho near South Africa — despite a fellow traveler, former Rep. Don Bonker (D-Wash.), telling the Washington Post in 2020 that he had “no recollection at all” of that version of the story either. n May, Biden said at the Naval Academy’s graduation ceremony that he was appointed to the military school in 1965 by the late Sen. J. Caleb Boggs (R-Del.). A search of Boggs’ archives failed to turn up evidence of the appointment. The date also doesn’t match up with Biden’s college years and Biden’s request for Vietnam War draft deferrals cast further doubt on the account.

    In January, Biden told students at historically black colleges in Atlanta that he was arrested during civil rights protests — for which there is no evidence. Biden in September 2021 told Jewish leaders that he remembered “spending time at” and “going to” the Tree of Life synagogue in Pittsburgh after the 2018 mass murder of 11 people in the worst anti-Jewish attack in US history. The synagogue said he never visited and the White House later said he was thinking about a 2019 phone call to the synagogue’s rabbi.

    Also last September, Biden told an Idaho audience that his “first job offer” came from local lumber and wood products business Boise Cascade. The company said it was news to them and Biden had not previously described an interest in moving to the state.

    https://nypost.com/2022/12/16/biden-claims-his-uncle-frank-won-purple-heart-but-story-doesnt-add-up/

    He’s a bum.

    Lest we forget: arrest the brain-damaged bastard:

    Georgia veteran sentenced, ordered to pay restitution after faking military honors and mental illness for VA benefits

    COLUMBUS, Ga. (WRBL) – A Columbus veteran has been sentenced to one year in prison and three years of supervised release, as well as being ordered to pay $76,000 in restitution to the Department of Veterans Affairs.

    Gregg Ramsdell, 61 of Columbus, pleaded guilty on Aug. 18 in federal court to one count of false statements and one count of violating the Stolen Valor Act. He will not be eligible for parole. “Ramsdell’s conduct [as does Joe Biden’s] does a disservice to all of those who exhibit true valor, serving honorably and courageously in our nation’s armed forces.

    https://www.wbtw.com/news/georgia-veteran-sentenced-ordered-to-pay-restitution-after-faking-military-honors-and-mental-illness-for-va-benefits/

    DCSCA (3cb2d2)

  456. Kevin: “any decision on editorial control based on the newspaper era is inherently about limited space, not just speech.”

    That seems to be contradicted by Tornillo:

    “Even if a newspaper would face no additional costs to comply with a compulsory access law and would not be forced to forgo publication of news or opinion by the inclusion of a reply, the Florida statute fails to clear the barriers of the First Amendment because of its intrusion into the function of editors.”

    https://tile.loc.gov/storage-services/service/ll/usrep/usrep418/usrep418241/usrep418241.pdf

    AJ_Liberty (811aff)

  457. #421 – Kevin asked: “What is an appropriate fine for a billionaire convicted of insurrection while President? Would $1 billion be too much?”

    No. Though I prefer my solution:

    1. Whatever crimes Melania may have committed (for example working before she was legal here), she has surely paid for them by now. So, he should pardon her and send her, her son, and her parents back to Slovenia.

    2. Whatever money Trump has should be put in a fund, to be distributed to those he has cheated. If it isn’t enough to cover their losses, it should be distributed equitably, as far as possible. (If there is extra, it should go to the treasury.)

    3. Trump should join one of those monastic orders which require monks to take vows of obedience, poverty, chastity — and silence. If he ever breaks any of those vows, off he goes to prison.

    (I realize, of course, that my solution has less than one chance in a billion of happening, but I think it would be a good opening offer by the prosecution.)

    Jim Miller (f29931)

  458. Ashley babbitt is unavailable for comment. So are fred hampton and mark clark. The students gunned down at kent and jackson state among many others on the left.

    asset (ca6ee8)

  459. @415 I have been posting about nixon’s treason and sedition for many years here. Now look into bill casey’s deal with the iran to hold are hostages to win the 1980 election the start of iran/contra treason or do you still think it was a coincidence that the hostages were released the day reagan took office. The cover story was that iran released the hostages out of fear of reagan. Biden’s base is the DNC who would be looking for jobs if bernie or AOC were president.

    asset (ca6ee8)

  460. Whembly, at 403: I know nothing about the program in question, but this is what I infer from the tweet:

    (a) there’s a federal law which requires that if the government serves you with a discovery request that makes you spend lots of time and money in order to comply with the request, the federal government must pay you *what it cost you to comply with the request*. I’m inferring that from the phrases “statutory right of reimbursement” and “reimbursement program for our legal process response from the FBI”.

    This feels like a fundamental fairness provision, probably put into the law by conservatives in the first place — if the government’s going to come to you with some obnoxious, time consuming, and expensive legal process request, then it should pay your costs, as otherwise there’s a risk that the government will do this frivolously for the intent of crippling businesses financially, and at least if the government is *paying the costs* then it’s not going to cripple the businesses, even if it’s otherwise being obnoxious.

    If I’m right, then what the email is saying is that prior to 2019, twitter wasn’t choosing to exercise it’s rights, and was just complying with legal process requests without charging the government for them. But in 2019 they decided to start billing the government for these costs the government was causing, and lo and behold, now they have lots of money that they wouldn’t have had if they hadn’t started billing the government!

    (b) because i’m not familiar with the law in this regard, i have no idea what provision of law creates this statutory right of reimbursement, or what things are subject to it. But i’m pinging off of “reimbursement program for our legal process response” — this is clearly not about general requests, it’s about some specific delineated set of requests related to legal process.

    It seems very unlikely to me that this is about censorship requests, because how is that a legal process response?

    aphrael (4c4719)

  461. Kevin: “any decision on editorial control based on the newspaper era is inherently about limited space, not just speech.”

    That seems to be contradicted by Tornillo:

    I don’t care what sophistry they used to get around the obvious: A print publication cannot print every letter or submission the receive; some editorial control must exist to prevent using up the world’s newsprint.

    The bottom line is that the legal result MUST match the practical result. It’s laughable if it does not.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  462. (If there is extra, it should go to the treasury.)

    Why not Melania? Or Baron for his decades-long psychotherapy.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  463. Jim,

    Just think how much money could be raised filming Trump’s first day in prison, where various rules are, um, explained to him, often more than once. Maybe a pay-per-view.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  464. aphrael, what kind of discovery request could they make of Twitter? And what makes you think they’d reimburse someone for mandatory hoop-jumping.

    It seems more like they asked Twitter to kill all instances of some information and paid them the cost of a fee for hunting it all down and killing it. They paid not because they must, but because otherwise Twitter wouldn’t do their bidding. Twitter probably marked it up some.

    AFAIK, the feds use process as a penalty. If you are caught up in some huge investigation, they don’t give you one red cent for the reams of documents they demand. Not even postage. Your lawyer does that, of course, and you pay your lawyer an exorbitant cost for it, and for his time doing it.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  465. It seems more like they asked Twitter to kill all instances of some information and paid them the cost of a fee for hunting it all down and killing it. They paid not because they must, but because otherwise Twitter wouldn’t do their bidding. Twitter probably marked it up some.

    A company whose employees were charging up to $15K under the table for an internet sticker most assuredly were upcharging the glowies, too.

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d)

  466. Both sides leaked, DCSCA, and by now the Court undoubtedly knows who they were. There is no upside for the Court in announcing the details.

    DRJ (676a53)

  467. If a conspiracy is abandoned before it affects anyone who is not part of the conspiracy, or someone whom the conspirators want to recruit to join them, is it still a conspiracy?

    Does it matter what he intended crime is or if it could be revived or if the opportunity to do that, or something similar has passed or not?

    Sammy Finkelman (373e5a)

  468. 460 (from the New York Post)

    The 80-year-old commander-in-chief has a habit of sharing false or embellished personal anecdotes to build a connection with his audiences

    Including, at an appearance before the Council on Foreign relations on January 23, 2018, claiming to have been instrumental in the firing of a Ukrainian prosecutor.

    It seems like Donald Trump doubted that the story was true, and asked Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelensky on July 25, 2019, to do him a favor and check it out. By the time the story got to trump, courtesy probably of Putin and Giuliani, the prosecutor had not only been investigating Biden’s son, or the company he was being paid by, but Biden had boasted of firing him to protect his son.

    Sammy Finkelman (373e5a)

  469. Just think how much money could be raised filming Trump’s first day in prison, where various rules are, um, explained to him, often more than once. Maybe a pay-per-view.
    Kevin M (1ea396) — 12/20/2022 @ 1:20 am

    it will take years before Jim Miller and others here come to grips with Trump never seeing a day in prison

    by that time, their interest will have moved on to pay-per-view fantasies of DeSantis in prison

    JF (719aaa)

  470. Sammy,

    Biden said he got the guy fired. If that was Trump, he’d be impeached for it. But we see how the fraud is played.

    I also see people want to destroy the law to bury Trump. That’s all that matters to them.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  471. @442

    Whembly @434:

    Yes, I actually understood that. I was looking at it from the other side. No, soliciting censorship for free or for pay is not normal, but we already knew what Twitter was and they were just haggling over the price.

    Kevin M (1ea396) — 12/19/2022 @ 3:33 pm

    The genesis of my line of inquiry is that I know companies and the likes are on the “hook” financially when under subpoena from the government. They’ve complained for as long as I remember about this burden and government usually just says “that’s the cost of doing business in US, so account for this”.

    That’s why most IT infrastructure of various industries, just about all things that are NOT required for retention are purged, so that these companies could legit say that the subpoena is ‘none responsive’, but of zero results returned.

    But, post 9/11 (patriot act?), I thought there was some means by which in a non-court subpoenaed psuedo investigation, governments could pay 3rd parties for hours spent for investigating on behalf of the government (ie, fbi).

    The question is twofold, if that’s the case:
    1) Is it a good thing, so long its not abused for partisan reasons?
    2) If it is abused, what’s the recourse?

    whembly (d116f3)

  472. If a conspiracy is abandoned before it affects anyone who is not part of the conspiracy, or someone whom the conspirators want to recruit to join them, is it still a conspiracy?

    Maybe. Voluntary abandonment or withdrawal is generally an affirmative defense to most crimes except conspiracy. That’s why the crime is (merely) conspiracy, if you think about it.

    The most liberal rule for jurisdictions which permit abandonment or withdrawal as a defense to conspiracy is that the co-conspirator

    Took an affirmative action withdrawing from the conspiracy;
    Timely communicated to all co-conspirators the withdrawal; and
    Withdraw prior to the completion of the objective of the conspiracy.

    You can’t just not show up stay home and watch TV at during the riot.

    Some jurisdictions also require that a co-conspirator who withdraws must also actively work to prevent the crime that is the objective of the conspiracy from being completed. This typically involves alerting police as to any planned conduct.

    nk (665f1c)

  473. @465 aphrael (4c4719) — 12/19/2022 @ 11:35 pm
    That’s where I’m at with this, as I’m assuming that there some recent change that allowed Twitter to “bill for their time” of FBI’s request.

    I’m not exactly sure where I fall on this, if this is true.

    On the one hand, we’ve tasked the FBI to conduct intelligence operations for the express purpose to “connect the dots” to prevent the next “9/11”.

    Processing requests from the FBI (non-subpoena) still cost man power and its understandable that companies should want to recoup this cost.

    But like I said earlier, if true, what’s the “check” on these government agencies to ensure that this wouldn’t be abused?

    We’re a “high trust” society.

    How much longer will that last?

    whembly (d116f3)

  474. “their interest will have moved on to pay-per-view fantasies of DeSantis in prison”

    Pre-emptive shaming….it’s all he has left

    AJ_Liberty (811aff)

  475. First, I want to know what SCALE is. Also, LP and TTR. (I think I know what LE-related means.)

    If it’s consulting, training, software subcontracting, cyber-threats, cyber-security, Russian bots, things like that.

    Also, it’s always nice to know what the other person is talking about.

    nk (665f1c)

  476. Thank you for comment 477, nk.

    DRJ (676a53)

  477. You’re welcome, DRJ. Conspiracy was designed to be and continues to be pro-prosecution. And, particularly, in the federal system.

    There was a joke at BAR/BRI that all you needed for a federal conspiracy was an informant and nine guys who last names ended in a vowel. Now, they’ve gotten rid of the vowel requirement and one guy will do.

    nk (f0de10)

  478. @41. There is no upside for the Court in announcing the details.

    Rubbish. Sunshine is the best disinfectant. Bureaucratic unaccountability is exactly what feeds, fuels and deepens populism and gets castles stormed. Endorsing incompetence w/deliberate silence only perpetuates the perception of bureaucratic ineptness further. And if the CJ is protecting one of their own [hello, Alito] it only further damages the institution. Who gives a damn what’s an ‘upside’ for “THEM???” THEY WORK FOR US.

    DCSCA (a1e76a)

  479. ^471

    DCSCA (a1e76a)

  480. nk

    most people may not understand the ins and outs of federal conspiracy charges, but they do understand that a guy in prison can be charged with conspiracy for a crime outside.
    the part I found informative was the need to disengage ones self very proactively. I don’t know if I’d show up with written “withdrawal from conspiracy paperwork” at the next Hells Angel meeting because my life would be nasty, brutish and not short enough. Disengaging from conspiracy sounds like it could be a very lonely, dangerous proposition and can see why a person might rather try to ghost it.

    steveg (f722b1)

  481. nk @477,

    I’m not sure you answered Sammy’s question. It’s not about staying home during the riot, it’s about there not BEING a riot.

    AIUI, conspriracy requires a plan to do something illegal, the ability to carry it out, and some action towards the goal. If two people conspire to rob a bank, and they both have guns and a car, and then they go buy ski masks that’s a criminal conspiracy.

    But suppose that they don’t do the bank robbery, having both affirmed to the other that it was a bad idea, and some time passes. At what point does their failure to proceed void the conspiracy?

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  482. Clearly if the FBI can compel information it is unlikely to pay for your compliance. But if they request something and you do NOT have to comply, then they may well be willing to pay for it, if they want it bad enough to get some committee to authorize it.

    This could be something appropriate, such as an internal search for keywords related to kiddie porn or some other potential crime, and delivering a report.

    This could be something less appropriate, such as an internal search for right-wing buzzwords, and a list of members using them.

    This could be something out-of-bounds, such as searching for all instances of “Hunter” and “laptop” and deleting the posts and shadow-banning the posters.

    Hard to say.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  483. At what point does their failure to proceed void the conspiracy?</e

    Up until they take the money, the completion of the objective of the conspiracy.

    “Betwixt the stirrup and the ground, Mercy I asked, mercy I found.”

    They will need a good judge, a good jury, and a good lawyer.

    nk (f0de10)

  484. Is there a statute of limitations on federal conspiracy? Asking for a friend.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  485. On this day in 1860, South Carolina become the first state to secede from the Union.

    …….
    The ends for which the Constitution was framed are declared by itself to be “to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity.”

    These ends it endeavored to accomplish by a Federal Government, in which each State was recognized as an equal, and had separate control over its own institutions. The right of property in slaves was recognized by giving to free persons distinct political rights, by giving them the right to represent, and burthening them with direct taxes for three-fifths of their slaves; by authorizing the importation of slaves for twenty years; and by stipulating for the rendition of fugitives from labor.

    We affirm that these ends for which this Government was instituted have been defeated, and the Government itself has been made destructive of them by the action of the non-slaveholding States. Those States have assume the right of deciding upon the propriety of our domestic institutions; and have denied the rights of property established in fifteen of the States and recognized by the Constitution; they have denounced as sinful the institution of slavery; they have permitted open establishment among them of societies, whose avowed object is to disturb the peace and to eloign the property of the citizens of other States. They have encouraged and assisted thousands of our slaves to leave their homes; and those who remain, have been incited by emissaries, books and pictures to servile insurrection.
    ………

    Source

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  486. You are responding to something I didn’t say, DCSCA.

    DRJ (676a53)

  487. But it lets you label it Rubbish, which I assume makes you feel better.

    DRJ (676a53)

  488. Is there a statute of limitations on federal conspiracy?

    Generally, five years. Running from the last act that was a part of the conspiracy.

    nk (5079b9)

  489. @491. ‘There is no upside for the Court in announcing the details.’

    DRJ (676a53) — 12/20/2022 @ 5:42 am

    DCSCA (8b4394)

  490. Section 230 comes to the Supreme Court in February

    The week before hearing the student-loan challenges, the court will hear two cases that could reshape legal liability for some of the nation’s largest technology companies.

    In Gonzalez v. Google, the justices will decide whether Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act of 1996, which generally shields tech companies from liability for content published by others, protects these platforms when their algorithms target users and recommend someone else’s content. The question comes to the court in a lawsuit filed by the family of an American woman killed in an ISIS attack in Paris, alleging that Google (which owns YouTube) aided ISIS’s recruitment through YouTube videos.

    And in Twitter v. Taamneh, the justices will consider whether Twitter, Facebook, and Google can be held liable, regardless of Section 230, for aiding and abetting international terrorism based on a terrorist group’s use of their generally available platforms.

    https://www.scotusblog.com/2022/12/court-schedules-february-arguments-on-student-loan-relief-tech-companies-liability/

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  491. Generally, five years. Running from the last act that was a part of the conspiracy.

    So, my friend is safe.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  492. > The screeching over Twitter is because someone who was on your side, isn’t running it the way you want it to be run right now.

    That’s not what i’m complaining about. You’ll note that everything i’ve said on the subject has been either about (a) broken promises to former employees or (b) destabilized infrastructure from under staffing.

    I don’t *like* Musk’s politics or the decisions he’s been making about who to ban and who not to ban, but he gets to make those choices, and they’re not disastrous the way the layoffs and their aftermath have been.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  493. > It seems more like they asked Twitter to kill all instances of some information and paid them the cost of a fee for hunting it all down and killing it

    That can only possibly be true if “reimbursement program for our legal process response from the FBI” is a lie. What you are describing is not a legal process response.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  494. 210. Factory Working Orphan (bce27d) — 12/16/2022 @ 6:15 pm

    Even if Musk gets sued, there’s no way Twitter goes under in a year

    Musk says that Twitter has been heading toward bankruptcy since May,

    https://nypost.com/2022/12/20/elon-musk-actively-looking-for-twitter-ceo-to-replace-him-report/

    His says his problem is finding someone who is both willing to be a CEO and capable of rescuing it. He told someone who volunteered that he would have to invest is life savings (Musk didn’t)

    https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1604626103326253056

    Elon Musk
    @elonmusk

    Replying to @lexfridman

    You must like pain a lot. One catch: you have to invest your life savings in Twitter and it has been in the fast lane to bankruptcy since May. Still want the job?

    6:54 PM · Dec 18, 2022

    he told some court in Delaware that he plans to scale back his involvement in Twitter – this before the poll, which ran for 12 hours and ended Monday shortly after 6 am,

    https://nypost.com/2022/12/20/elon-musk-actively-looking-for-twitter-ceo-to-replace-him-report/

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  495. Kevin M, this article at techdirt — https://www.techdirt.com/2022/12/20/no-the-fbi-is-not-paying-twitter-to-censor/ — seems to have found the relevant statute that gives rise to the statutory right of compensation, and the DoJ guidelines for what can be requested under it.

    This is a whole lot of hot air signifying nothing.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  496. I heard on the radio that Elon Musk said he would quit as CEO of Twitter on Tuesday.

    But he actually said on Tuesday that he would quit – from everything except software and servers. In other words he would still run the front end and remain Chief Twit, leaving the question of how to make money at it to someone else.

    He said he would quit as CEO as soon as he could find someone foolish enough to take the job.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  497. BS aphrael. The FBI worked behind the scenes to violate the 1st Amendment repeatedly and then lied to censor the Biden laptop to help “fortify” the 2020 election.

    The bribes were for services rendered.

    NJRob (26697a)

  498. aphrael,

    He buries the lead quite a bit, but yes, as I suggested in 487, two of the alternatives, one appropriate and one scary, are apparently allowed under 18 USC 2703. The third would also be allowed, as far as retrieval is concerned, but a request for deletion would not be.

    However, they did honor 4 out of 10 censorship requests. According to earlier data dumps, these were heavily biased towards Democrat requests — Trump’s WH was not on their favored list.

    Kevin M (1ea396)


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