Fighting for Freedom
[guest post by Dana]
In a wonderful essay by Dasha Navalnaya, daughter of Alexie Navalny, she eloquently and with force, speaks to his courage and his unwavering fight for freedom. Of course, as you know, Navalny is now in solitary confinement at a brutal prison colony, and family visits are no longer allowed. And yet, he continues to fight. Here is an excerpt from Ms. Navalnaya’s essay:
As you read these lines, Navalny is in mortal danger, but he continues to stand by what he believes in. He has proven willing to sacrifice his freedom, health, and even his life to see Russia become a democratic, prosperous country. And right now, even from prison, he is fighting to make it peaceful. By his example, he supports and inspires millions of Russians who, like him, are unwilling to tolerate war and injustice.
Putin must be defeated. He is a threat not only to Russia and Ukraine but to the world. The very essence of authoritarian power involves a constant increase in bets, an increase in aggression, and the search for new enemies. In order not to lose in this struggle, we must unite.
My father is one of the leaders of this struggle, and he must be out there. He challenges Putin every day, but together we can ensure that his efforts are not in vain and that his words are heard around the world. I now turn to world leaders and ask them to support my call to the Russian government to release my father.
Let’s all strive for a better, more prosperous global future where we can choose our own leaders. Free Alexei Navalny!
Read the whole thing. It is inspiring to see Navalny’s continued commitment to fighting for freedom, despite his physical circumstances. Of course, his transfer to such a high level of imprisonment where basic privileges are denied him only speaks to the level of threat he continues to present to Vladimir Putin.
I want to point you to one more essay about another freedom-fighter: President Volodymyr Zelensky. He has just been named Time Magazine’s person of the year. In the essay, one can clearly see that the president’s courage has certainly been contagious. Here is an excerpt describing what motivates critical decision-making in the ongoing war:
When it comes to battlefield decisions, Zelensky usually focuses on human lives—how many would be lost if we take this path? “We could have pushed into Kherson earlier, with greater force. But we understood how many people would have fallen,” he says. “That’s why a different tactic was chosen, and thank God it worked. I don’t think it was some genius move on our part. It was reason winning out, wisdom winning out against speed and ambition.”
About Zelensky’s strategy to win the war:
“I don’t want to weigh who has more tanks and armies,” he says. Russia is a nuclear superpower. No matter how many times its forces are made to retreat from Ukrainian cities, they can regroup and try again. “We are dealing with a powerful state that is pathologically unwilling to let Ukraine go,” Zelensky told me. “They see the democracy and freedom of Ukraine as a question of their own survival.” The only way to defeat an enemy like that—not just to win a temporary truce, but to win the war— is to persuade the rest of the free world to pull Ukraine in the other direction, toward sovereignty, independence, and peace. The loss of freedom in one nation, he argues, erodes freedom in all the rest. “If they devour us, the sun in your sky will get dimmer.”
And ultimately:
But his vision of victory now extends beyond the liberation of territory…Zelensky stressed that this year’s invasion is just the latest Russian attempt over the past century to subjugate Ukraine. His intention is to make it the last, even if it takes a lot more time and sacrifice. It is far too early to gauge whether that goal can be reached, Zelensky told me. “Later we will be judged,” he says. “I have not finished this great, important action for our country. Not yet.”
Make sure to read the whole thing. These are two men who have decided to do everything in their power to not let evil triumph. And if that means sacrificing their own lives in order to get the job done, they both appear to have made peace with the possibility.
–Dana
Talk about profiles of courage…
Dana (1225fc) — 12/7/2022 @ 12:52 pmI marvel that Navalny is still alive. I guess even Putin has limitations on his power.
norcal (862cdb) — 12/7/2022 @ 1:30 pmPresident Volodymyr Zelensky. He has just been named Time Magazine’s person of the year.
So was Vladimir Putin; Adolf Hitler; Josef Stalin [twice]; Nikita Khrushchev; The Big Dick [twice]; Nixon nemesis Judge Sirica; Iran’s Ayatollah Khomeini; China’s Deng Xiaoping; Yuri Andropov; Mikhail Gorbachev; Donald Trump; high flying ‘America Firster’ Charles Lindbergh; Rudy Giuliani; Henry Kissinger; Squinty & Kamala; Poland’s Lech Wałęsa; “The Peacemakers”- Yasser Arafat, F. W. de Klerk, Nelson Mandela, and Yitzhak Rabin; Saudi’s King Faisal; Churchill, HST & Marshall [all twice]; QEII, Ike, De Gaulle, MLK, FDR [three times], LBJ [twice], Reagan, Carter, Gingrich, Gandhi, a few popes, the Silent Majority, Vietnam casualty Westmorland; Apollo 8 crew Borman, Lovell & Anders; Ted Turner, Bezos, Zuckerberg, Musk, among others… the computer– and yes, even The Planet Earth.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_Person_of_the_Year
Might make ‘ya wanna go out and buy a TIME magazine over the holidays in the slow news period, doesn’t it. Which is the marketing strategy behind it.
DCSCA (0dfbf3) — 12/7/2022 @ 1:52 pmThis part of the DCSCA script always baffles me. DCSCA— suppose you are leader of a nation invaded by your powerful neighbor for no good reason? What would you do differently than Z and why?
I always believe your real answer is lie down and take it and maybe get a little graft on the way to Belize or Panama. But persuade me different?
Appalled (35937e) — 12/7/2022 @ 2:30 pmAppalled (35937e) — 12/7/2022 @ 2:30 pm
Don’t expect a straight-up answer.
norcal (862cdb) — 12/7/2022 @ 2:32 pmI don’t. Curious what the excuse will be for not providing one.
Appalled (192b5a) — 12/7/2022 @ 2:42 pmNorcal,
As much as Putin wants Navalny dead, he’s savvy enough to know that executing him while he’s in a Russian prison isn’t going to do anything but make a martyr of Navalny and likely incentivize the opposition. I think he’s happy to keep him in custody and wait out a slow death from pneumonia or TB or something like that. Of course, they could poison him while he’s in custody and blame it on something else…
Dana (1225fc) — 12/7/2022 @ 2:50 pmThe more I look at it, this is not sustainable and the US & NATO have two choices:
1) Get Zelensky and Ukraine the best deal possible, but short of their demands.
2) NATO intervenes and compels the Russians to leave.
The problem with #1 is that the Russians will be back, and everyone faces the same choices again a little bit later.
The problem with #2 is that Russia may choose to escalate. They are clearly unable to oppose NATO conventionally, but escalation to nuclear arms is a path that quickly goes global. Is Putin that crazy?
Kevin M (1ea396) — 12/7/2022 @ 3:23 pmPresident Volodymyr Zelensky. He has just been named Time Magazine’s person of the year.
This is a man who has risen to the occasion and has the admiration or the world. It’s been a while since they picked someone so deserving. Lech Walsea (1982)?
Kevin M (1ea396) — 12/7/2022 @ 3:30 pm@8:
Perhaps there is a middle ground, where Ukraine is given the ability to strike meaningfully into Russia proper. At some point, Putin is subject to the will of the Russians, just as the Soviet state was after Afghanistan and Chernobyl. Then again, half measures often avail nothing.
Kevin M (1ea396) — 12/7/2022 @ 3:34 pm@4. What’s to persuade. It’s just one of a multitude of global turf battles; and in this case w/a long history and a wholly European problem to manage. You really need to bone up on the long history of the relationship between corrupt Ukraine and the corrupt Russia in that neighborhood, especially as debt and inflation riddled American taxpayers are getting suckered [at least for now] by idiot congress critters w/footing the bill for the Moran/Capone gang fight that’s none of America’s business. See, it’s easier to try to fix the problems of non-taxpayers in other lands w/no vote than manage the problems of the citizens who do vote pay their salaries. The U.S. is not the world’s policeman.
But if you wanna play at Earth Copper, plenty of ongoing conflicts in the world to meddle in: choose one that’s not on your cable TeeVee– or the cover of TIME this week… the following is a list of ongoing armed conflict in the world from 2003 to date just burning to be extinguished…
War in Darfur; South Thailand insurgency; Insurgency in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa; Iran–PJAK conflict; Conflict in the Niger Delta; Kivu conflict; Sistan and Baluchestan insurgency; Insurgency in Paraguay; Fatah–Hamas conflict; Bakassi conflict; Mexican drug war; Militias-Comando Vermelho conflict; Operation Juniper Shield; Somali Civil War (2009–present); Sudanese nomadic conflicts; Boko Haram insurgency; South Yemen insurgency; Sinai insurgency; Shia insurgency in Bahrain; Syrian civil war; Sudanese conflict in South Kordofan and Blue Nile; Ethnic violence in South Sudan (2011–present); Mali War; Central African Republic Civil War; War against the Islamic State; Yemeni Civil War (2014–present); Islamic State insurgency in Tunisia; Kurdish–Turkish conflict (2015–present); 2016 Niger Delta conflict; Conflict in Rakhine State; Insurgency in Northern Chad; Anglophone Crisis; Insurgency in Cabo Delgado; Islamic State insurgency in Iraq (2017–present); Catatumbo campaign; 2019–2022 Persian Gulf crisis [Part of the Iran–Saudi Arabia proxy conflict, the Iran–Israel proxy conflict, and the Persian Gulf conflicts]; 2020–2022 Western Saharan clashes; 2020–2022 Ethiopian–Sudanese clashes; Insurgency in Southeastern Nigeria; 2021–2022 Myanmar civil war; 2021–2022 Armenia–Azerbaijan border crisis…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars:_2003%E2%80%93present
Can flaming Joey walk, chew gum and drive a fire truck, too?
Let’s go, Brandon!
DCSCA (a0b5dc) — 12/7/2022 @ 4:00 pmIt is not our role to negotiate on Ukraine’s behalf with Russia. It is up to the warring parties. Putin cannot afford, given their losses, to compromise with an entity that he denies exists. And Ukraine cannot compromise its hard fought gains and sacrifices in the face on an enemy that has committed genocide. A recent poll found that 86% of Ukrainians favor continued resistance in spite of the Russian terror campaign against the civilian population.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 12/7/2022 @ 4:01 pm@9. This is a man who has risen to the occasion and has the admiration or the world.
… cried stubborn LBJ and Big Dick the Crook of Vietnam’s Thiệu…
Actually, Z’s more a Castro clone, right down to the costume fatigues; w/t making of a classic Bond villain; floats on rivers of extorted American tax dollars which arm and finance his government– and rattles NATO neighbors w/chatter of nuclear war.
“I even thought there might be a position for you with SPECTRE.” – Dr. No [Joseph Wiseman]
DCSCA (a0b5dc) — 12/7/2022 @ 4:14 pm‘Dr. No’ 1962
@12. It is not our role to negotiate on Ukraine’s behalf with Russia.
Per his presser w/Macron last week, might wanna mention that to Joey:
‘President Biden, heeding President Macron’s push for negotiations with Russia, said that he is open to talking to President Vladimir Putin with conditions: …he would talk to President Vladimir V. Putin, but only in consultation with NATO allies and only if the Russian leader indicated he was “looking for a way to end the war.”
Mr. Biden’s public expression of conditioned willingness to reach out to Mr. Putin gratified French officials and provided unexpected support for President Emmanuel Macron’s outreach. Mr. Biden noted that Mr. Putin had shown no interest yet in ending his invasion, but said that if that changed, “I’ll be happy to sit down with Putin to see what he has in mind.”’
… and the Froggies smiled.
DCSCA (a0b5dc) — 12/7/2022 @ 4:17 pmRussia and Ukraine: the tangled history that connects—and divides—them
Centuries of bloodshed, foreign domination, and internal divisions have left Ukraine in a precarious position between East and West.
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/article/russia-and-ukraine-the-tangled-history-that-connects-and-divides-them
DCSCA (a0b5dc) — 12/7/2022 @ 4:45 pmOr there’s Option #3: We keep supporting Ukraine with arms and intel and Zelenskyy keeps reclaiming more Ukrainian territory. Why is it that Zelenskyy has to come to terms with Putin when it should really be about Putin coming to terms with his disastrous invasion.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 12/7/2022 @ 5:00 pm5 Historical Reasons for Bad Blood Between Russia and Ukraine
‘Russia and Ukraine have a long history that dates back long before economic pressures and Russia’s 2022 invasion. Russia may consider Ukraine as part of its sphere of influence, but Ukrainians have long memories of Russian and Soviet domination, a centuries-long era that resulted in the deaths of millions. Since the end of the 18th century, Russia (and then the Soviet Union) has controlled or attempted to control historical areas of Ukraine, so it’s understandable that Ukrainians might be tired of it and ready to fight back.
1. Ukrainian War of Independence
Toward the end of World War I, the Russian Empire had fallen and was under the control of the Bolsheviks, and many of the empire’s former holdings attempted to declare independence. Ukraine established the Ukrainian People’s Republic while the Soviets set up a rival Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic in the east. Ukrainians had to fight Germany, Austria-Hungary, Russian Bolsheviks, White Russian volunteers loyal to the Russian monarchy and Poland while fighting a brutal civil war in the middle of World War I. By 1922, Ukraine’s internationally recognized government was defeated, and its territory split between the Soviet Union, Poland, Romania and Czechoslovakia.
2. The Red Terror
Between 1917 and 1922, areas controlled by the Bolsheviks experienced a wave of reprisal killings, repressions and executions against the Bolshevik’s political rivals. These rivals include those who sided with the Tsarist White Forces in the Russian Civil War, Kulaks (private landowners) and middle-class “bourgeoisie.” The Bolsheviks called the campaign the “Red Terror” and modeled it after the Reign of Terror during the French Revolution. Not limited to the use of firearms, Ukrainians were thrown into boiling water, tortured publicly, impaled, crucified or killed in some other painful way. An estimated 1.3 million were killed.
3. The Holodomor
After consolidating power in the Soviet leadership, Joseph Stalin moved to implement a massive industrialization program throughout the USSR. At the same time, the Soviet harvest was much lower than expected due to collective farming and land redistribution. The result was a man-made famine that killed 3.5 to 10 million people in the Ukrainian SSR. The Soviet government in Moscow not only did little to aid the Ukrainian famine, it actively tried to cover it up to maintain a facade of international strength. Even inside Ukrainian cities, few people knew what was happening to those in the countryside.
4. World War II
The German Army advanced to Ukraine’s capital city within six weeks of launching its invasion of the Soviet Union. Much of Ukraine saw the Germans as liberators in the early days of the war, especially in the western areas of the country, further from Russia’s traditional border. Many Ukrainians joined the German forces against the Red Army. As German intentions in the east became clearer and the Nazis began killing Ukrainians en masse, more and more joined the Red Army to fight off the invasion. Ukraine had the second-largest population in the USSR and was a large part of the Soviet military. About 4.5 million Ukrainians served in the war, and 31% of Ukrainians who fought in World War II died, some 1.4 million.
5. Resistance to the Soviet Union
During World War II, an insurgency broke out among Ukrainian nationalists, who not only fought the Nazi invaders but also the Soviet Union. The Ukrainian Insurgent Army, an anti-fascist, anti-communist military force with a political arm, fought for a Ukrainian state long after World War II ended. Between 1944 and 1954, the Ukrainian guerrillas killed some 35,000 Soviet soldiers, police officers and party officials. It was a higher casualty rate than the Soviets experienced in Afghanistan in the 1980s. It received little international support because of its collaboration with Nazi Germany. Eventually it was infiltrated by the Soviet NKVD (later known as the KGB), which led to widespread arrests and executions among its members.’
https://www.military.com/history/5-historical-reasons-bad-blood-between-russia-and-ukraine.html
This is so NOT an American problem to meddle in.
Which makes the current ‘as long as it takes’ Pentagon and congress-critter shills for the Military Industrial Complex all the more criminally deceitful to the American taxpayers.
“This letter’s post-marked, Vietnam…” – Barry Sadler, 1966
DCSCA (a0b5dc) — 12/7/2022 @ 5:01 pmThat didn’t answer Appalled’s question about “What would you do differently than Z and why?”
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 12/7/2022 @ 5:06 pmThat didn’t answer Appalled’s question about “What would you do differently than Z and why?”
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 12/7/2022 @ 5:06 pm
As I predicted.
He tends to make HIS point rather than answer a question.
norcal (862cdb) — 12/7/2022 @ 5:16 pm@19./@20. Except it did. That you don’t like the facts presented and the entangled histories involved is your problem to pretzel around. But if you want to play Dudley-Do-Right, Planetary Policeman, plenty of ongoing conflicts in the world to meddle in; choose sides and rationalize involvements– especially if you have an investment portfolio full of defense contractor stocks. Lots aren’t on your cable TeeVee or hand gadget for lazy journalists to do stand-ups from for their reels– or on the cover of TIME this week… Go ahead, choose a few.
DCSCA (8404a7) — 12/7/2022 @ 5:36 pmStill non-responsive. You said nothing about what you would’ve done differently than Zelenskyy, because you’re all about smearing the victim and absolving imperialist war criminal.
Paul Montagu (1888f5) — 12/7/2022 @ 6:31 pm@23. Except it was. Poor soul.
DCSCA (8aa659) — 12/7/2022 @ 6:56 pm@23. You’re fatigued Paul- just like Castro and Z.
DCSCA (8aa659) — 12/7/2022 @ 6:58 pm@23. How soon the Z bootlickers forget:
‘We don’t have a Titanic here’: Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky downplays the US assessment of imminent Russian invasion as Gen. Mark Milley warns a full attack would be ‘horrific’ and bring a ‘significant amount of casualties’
-Biden shared a phone call with President Zelensky Thursday night, warning that Russia could invade within weeks
-Zelensky on Friday chided world leaders for their public statements about a Russian invasion
‘We don’t need this panic,’ Zelensky said
-He also criticized decisions by nations to pull diplomats out of Kiev
-Milley warn’t of ‘horrific’ consequences if Russia put its 100,000-plus force to work on an invasion
-The chairman of the joint chiefs urged Russia to pursue diplomacy
-Moves come after Zelensky urged Biden to tone down rhetoric about an invasion, CNN reported
-Source said he warned Kiev could get ‘sacked’, but White House disputed account, saying report ‘not true’
-Security spokesman said Biden told Zelensky: ‘There is a distinct possibility that the Russians could invade Ukraine in February’
–
Biden is thought to have based his assessment on intelligence which suggests Putin is waiting for cold weather that would freeze the ground solid so his tanks can move easily, likely to arrive in February
-Russia has amassed more than 100,000 troops around Ukraine after a steady buildup
UK intelligence source suggested Putin will continue massing forces for ‘two or three weeks’ before attacking
-Attack could come from Belarus aimed at Kiev, coupled with amphibious assault from Crimea on port city of Odessa to split Ukraine’s forces, before tens of thousands of troops roll in from the east, source said
Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky addressed the global media in Kiev Friday and pushed back on world leaders who have publicly stressed the prospect of Russian invasion – following a call with President Biden where the president raised the ‘distinct possibility’ Russian troops would soon overrun his country.
‘There are signals even from respected leaders of states, they just say that tomorrow there will be war. This is panic – how much does it cost for our state?’ said Zelensky. He indirectly criticized the decision by the U.S. to pull family members of diplomats out of the country as yet another measure that could feed ‘panic’ that could be counterproductive.”
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10452249/Ukrainian-President-Volodymyr-Zelensky-told-Biden-tone-messaging-invasion.html
Cut the taxpayer funding, have Elon Musk pull the plug on the freebee Starlink and it’ll cancel The Z Show in a week. Ukraine would be better led by Groucho Marx:
“Calling all nations. Calling all nations. This is Rufus T. Firefly coming to you through the courtesy of the enemy. We’re in a mess folks, we’re in a mess. Rush to Freedonia! Three men and one woman are trapped in a building! Send help at once! If you can’t send help, send two more women… make it three more women!” – Rufus T. Firefly [Groucho Marx] ‘Duck Soup’ 1933
DCSCA (8aa659) — 12/7/2022 @ 7:18 pmD**ks Can Spew Crap Again,
Paul isnt fatigued, he asked a simple question, which like the 14 year old fake in a basement you are, you ducked. With alot of spam.
EPWJ (650a62) — 12/7/2022 @ 7:33 pm@27. Spam? Have you priced it lately??!! Attaboy, Joey!
He was answered. And like AuH20 in ’64 and LBJ in ’68– doesn’t like the answer.
DCSCA (8aa659) — 12/7/2022 @ 7:44 pmIt boggles my mind and even makes me angry when anyone sitting in their comfy house and commenting away on a blog in a definitely not life or death situation, can’t find anything to admire and say about the courage of two men who find themselves in the most perilous of situations. Away from their families, away from their homes, away from the comfort of what was everyday life, and away from everything familiar.
Dana (1225fc) — 12/7/2022 @ 8:30 pmDana,
Its sociopathic, stream of crap – he wants reactions. I agree with your comment. Don’t let him get to you, thank you for all the work and care you give to this forum..
EPWJ (650a62) — 12/7/2022 @ 8:44 pmIt is not our role to negotiate on Ukraine’s behalf with Russia. It is up to the warring parties.
it seems our role is to be an ATM and never ask where the money is going
JF (d11af3) — 12/7/2022 @ 8:58 pmNavalny is a hero
Zelenskyy is an opportunist and self promoter who poses for Vogue while Ukrainians scrounge for crumbs
JF (d11af3) — 12/7/2022 @ 9:01 pmAsking questions don’t fatigue me, DC, but reading your gasbag non-answers do.
Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 12/7/2022 @ 9:11 pmThis, from the linked report, might help to understand why Zelensky has taken the steps he has. Zelensky and his team intentionally take advantage of every opportunity that comes their way in order to keep the war on the front page. There’s a good reason for this too:
Dana (1225fc) — 12/7/2022 @ 9:40 pm@33. Except they are answers. You just can’t face the cold hard facts there in of who the victims really are. Ukraine and Russia have been battling for centuries. It is an issue for wealthy modern Europe to manage– and NOT an American problem.
@30. Projecting again. Too bad they ain’t sitting a top an oil field. Weep for Americans. This is NOT a U.S. problem.
DCSCA (4217c5) — 12/7/2022 @ 11:50 pm@29. Will mention that sentiment to my neighbor, a USMC lieutenant w/kids who has been deployed to Palau for six months, Poland for two and Afghanistan multiple times and found himself w/colleagues ‘in the most perilous of situations away from their families, away from their homes, away from the comfort of what was everyday life, and away from everything familiar’… putting out other people’s fires that are their responsibility. No wonder he wants out now.
DCSCA (4217c5) — 12/8/2022 @ 12:12 amAt last, polled; Marist Poll called tonight- gave them an hour: everything from no on Ukraine and why– to Biden’s a bum- [they seemed to like that]; that both parties stink [that too]; Congress and the ancient hacks hang on too long and are too damn old to be running the country.
How sweet it was.
DCSCA (4217c5) — 12/8/2022 @ 12:30 am“but reading your gasbag non-answers do”
Again, it’s a routine not aimed at rational discourse. It’s insanity to think after 7,8, maybe 10 years something different is going to transpire. He doesn’t want genuine conversation, he wants an audience. Ignore, ignore, ignore…don’t give him an excuse to post his “best of”…yet again.
AJ_Liberty (6a18fd) — 12/8/2022 @ 3:39 amJF,
Since DCSCA didn’t answer this question, maybe you will. Had you been in charge of the Ukraine and Russia invaded for no good reason, what would you have done differently?
I remain puzzled by the anti-Z crowd. What do you think this guy should have done? You don’t have to be in favor of helping Ukraine to recognize that a Ukrainian leader in this situation should be doing whatever it takes, in his judgement, to ensure his nation survives. Part of that, in Z’s world, is a media strategy to keep the attention and support of the West.
Appalled (469ff3) — 12/8/2022 @ 6:10 amAppalled (469ff3) — 12/8/2022 @ 6:10 am
Brittney Griner just got released in exchange for the Merchant of Death after months of a media blitz, while the marine Paul Whelan who did nothing wrong and didn’t have LeBron in his corner stays in prison.
Does that make Griner a hero?
You’re confusing heroics with just being smart and recognizing how superficial the West is.
JF (d11af3) — 12/8/2022 @ 6:25 amJF —
OK, that’s an answer. You did it in one comment. Something DCSCA hasn’t accomplished in 10 million multi-paragraphs.
There is a susceptability to surface razzle dazzle in our culture. Z is playing it. That’s one way he has of saving lives in his country. The thing to watch is Z might feel his country is better off if WWIII breaks out, since it would be on multiple fronts that aren’t Ukraine. Biden has not been afraid to tell him no on certain items– and that’s a good thing.
I think by your reckoning, someone like Winston Churchill or Abraham Lincoln would not qualify as a hero, because they are not in a life or death situation, even if thy are doing the right things. Is that fair?
Appalled (274c09) — 12/8/2022 @ 6:49 amA leader in wartime does a lot more things than tell soldiers “go there and do that”.
nk (bb1548) — 12/8/2022 @ 7:00 amAs for Brittney Griner and Viktor Bout, neither is an existential threat to either nation. They are important only to their families. As far as the interests of America and Russia go, the trade only signifies that we are still talking to each other.
nk (bb1548) — 12/8/2022 @ 7:12 amAppalled (274c09) — 12/8/2022 @ 6:49 am
Lincoln didn’t sell countries like China and Argentina on the importance of the Union cause to them and to send money and arms and advisors and risk deeper involvement, so he really wasn’t much of a hero.
JF (d11af3) — 12/8/2022 @ 7:28 amAppalled (274c09) — 12/8/2022 @ 6:49 am
Lincoln didn’t sell countries like China and Argentina on the importance of the Union cause to them and to send money and arms and advisors and risk deeper involvement, so he really wasn’t much of a hero.
JF (d11af3) — 12/8/2022 @ 7:28 amHe kept England and France from doing that for the Confederacy. Which is more than Putin did.
nk (bb1548) — 12/8/2022 @ 8:10 amGriner-Not a hero, just a pawn in the struggle between the US and Russia.
Zelensky-A hero, especially to the Ukrainian people (and those who oppose the Russian invasion of a sovereign country even if not in NATO), for staying in Kyiv despite entreaties from the West to leave.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 12/8/2022 @ 9:33 amGriner-Not a hero, just a pawn in the struggle between the US and Russia.
Zelensky-A hero, especially to the Ukrainian people (and those who oppose the Russian invasion of a sovereign country even if not in NATO), for staying in Kyiv despite entreaties from the West to leave.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 12/8/2022 @ 9:34 amWeird double post. Sorry.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 12/8/2022 @ 9:42 am@46. ROFLMAO. See 26. Moran was warned but told the world he knew better.
DCSCA (70c077) — 12/8/2022 @ 10:11 am@39. Except it was. You just don’t like a fact filled answer.
DCSCA (70c077) — 12/8/2022 @ 10:13 am@39. I remain puzzled by the anti-Z crowd.
Why? He was warned and told the world to FO. And now begs, borrows, extorts to be propped up. He’s just another fatigue-clad Castro, begging for support now; another footnote in the long, long, long history of Russia-Ukraine conflict.
DCSCA (70c077) — 12/8/2022 @ 10:17 am@38. ROFLMAOPIP Facts are stubborn things; Ukraine is not an American problem.
DCSCA (70c077) — 12/8/2022 @ 10:21 amDah Stalking Creep Slimes Again,
Mommy want you to bring the cans in from the curb….
EPWJ (650a62) — 12/8/2022 @ 10:43 amDah Sloppy Creep Slimes Again,
Yelling in a soft well cushioned prison of your own arguments..
EPWJ (650a62) — 12/8/2022 @ 10:45 am#39
How did Z tell the world to FO? You’ve made the statement. How about a for instance. Is it that he (in your view) misplayed the days before the invasion? Is that your problem? Weak tea for such a strong opinion.
Again, you have a gigantic manifesto on why we shouldn’t bother with Ukraine. (It’s not in our interest to do so, basically). And yet you don’t like the idea that the Ukrainians perceive that they have interests too. The idea they act on that makes you upset.
As I repeat — your animus to Z makes your whole argument suspect. Like you’ve swallowed the whole Putin line of argumentation whole and everyting else is an annoyance. If you take the view that Z has suckered into this mess, you have to accept the fact he is smart enough to sucker us into anything. If you take the stance that Z is a fatuous moron — then you have to accept that, somehow, Ukraine is surviving and yet inspired by a dolt.
Your theories don’t explain events. So how do you reconcile your beliefs to what’s happening?
Appalled (5ba821) — 12/8/2022 @ 10:48 amAppalled,
He’s a sociopath, just make fun of him, or just ignore him. He want to be engaged, its how he fills his day in mommys basement
EPWJ (650a62) — 12/8/2022 @ 10:50 amDC presented lots of answers, just none to the question. Psycho.
Paul Montagu (1888f5) — 12/8/2022 @ 10:55 am#57
Like Capitalism, DCSCA will continue to flourish despite his internal contradictions. I don’t think he is sociopath. I think, though, that he gets his Ukraine talking points from Putin-approved websites. It’s the only thing that explains the contradictory nonsense.
Appalled (5ba821) — 12/8/2022 @ 10:57 amSociopaths are those devoid of social norms like freedom, liberty, empathy, he all the time advocates blackness of norms. The other day when cruz was assaulted and his 14 yr old daughter was nearly struck by a heavy can filled with fluid – naturally he thought it was funny and deserved.
Like I said sociopath
EPWJ (650a62) — 12/8/2022 @ 11:12 am@56. See @26. He made the statement; repeatedly: was warned for months by betters, blew ’em off- even chastised ’em — literally hours before the tanks rolled and now begs to be propped up for his mistakes w/U.S. tax dollars and NATO support. If you can’t see the putz for what he is that’s your issue. Another fatigue clad Castro; another arrogant Thiệu; another demanding Shah of Iran to propped up– only Z ain’t sittin’ on an oil field. The long, long history of facts over Ukraine and Russian disputes keep spelling it out but you won’t accept them: Ukraine not an American problem— It’s a European mess to manage. But it is easier for lazy-azzed congress critters to try to meddle in other people’s messes in other lands- folks who don’t pay taxes and can’t vote againstr them; and have DoD contractors in their districts to chum the media chumps w/sucker bait… while the Pentagon shills for the Military Industrial Complex with cries of, ‘as long as it takes.’
“This letter’s postmarked, Vietnam…” – Barry Sadler, 1966
____
@57. Huh? When did we get a basement?? Personal attacks won’t change the facts.
DCSCA (70c077) — 12/8/2022 @ 11:15 am@58. Except it was. You just don’t like the answer.
@59. Putin sites??? ROFLMAOPIP:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10452249/Ukrainian-President-Volodymyr-Zelensky-told-Biden-tone-messaging-invasion.html
https://www.military.com/history/5-historical-reasons-bad-blood-between-russia-and-ukraine.html
DCSCA (70c077) — 12/8/2022 @ 11:19 am@60. The other day when cruz was assaulted and his 14 yr old daughter was nearly struck by a heavy can filled with fluid – naturally he thought it was funny and deserved.
Liar.
DCSCA (70c077) — 12/8/2022 @ 11:21 amThere was a mommas cellar
EPWJ (650a62) — 12/8/2022 @ 11:29 amdark, damp, and a dweller
He tended to cry
To render a rise
But mostly mocked and muted
The more he’s ignored
will get his gourd
deep down in mommas cellar
DCSCA:
Imagine, if you will, your are the President of Ukraine in February 2022. Russia is massing troops on your border. NATO countries are telling you that invasion is imminent. Maybe the best thing you can do is get out of Dodge. (Do you think that wasn’t part of the message? Then you have situational cynicism, friend. Only cynical when people you don’t like are involved)
What would you do? Beg for arms? You look like a warmonger and give Putin an excuse. Take preemptive action? Are you kidding? Try to negotiate? There is evidence Z tried that. Since Putin thought he’d win in a walk, he just snorted his derision and kept on wth his plans.
So, those options don’t work. What might you try? Public denial of what’s coming while making sure your military is as prepared as it can be. You might get lucky, after all.
Now, maybe Z is as feckless as you imagine him, pre invasion. He hasn’t been since. You don’t like his stance because you want the war to stop now. But even you have to admit he has played the western media card well and he has played the wartime leader card well in his own country. (He’s not flamingly unpopular like Chamberlin became.)
Go ahead and refute, if you like. I’ve been trying to get this argument out of you for a while now. I don’t think you’ll address the point directly, but I would love to be proved wrong.
Note, though, that I view his prior to hostilities conduct more irrelevant than Jeb Bush.
Appalled (db571c) — 12/8/2022 @ 11:36 am@65. Nothing to imagine- we have the facts. Just look at the broader context of this; it’s a Ukraine-Russian issue; one that has been stewing for centuries and not an American problem; it is a European mess to manage. No U.S. interests- unless you’re a Congress critter w/a DoD contractor in your district. The 20 year Afghanistan cash cow is dead. Now, w/North Korea in the dugout, Taiwan on deck and the MIC Pentagon shill crying, ‘as long as it takes’- a lot of inflation causing, borrowed bucks are going to flow to these contractors in the out of control MIC– which is exactly what Ike warned about.
DCSCA (70c077) — 12/8/2022 @ 11:46 am1. Nobody believes that Ukraine was unprepared. What was announced publicly has no relevance as to what was being done/said behind the scenes.
AJ_Liberty (5f05c3) — 12/8/2022 @ 11:57 am2. If Zelensky was incompetent or ineffective (or corrupt), you would see it in the Ukraine military response. You don’t.
3. Ukraine was always going to need external equipment support to fend off a super-power. And every dollar contributes to degrading the Russian military and lowering morale. This reduces their future threat.
4. Let’s not confuse persistence and volume for well-reasoned analysis that deserves rebuttal. This is just attention seeking.
#66
Not an answer responsive to the issue under discussion. Just a vague insinuation that the situation is just at the behest of the military-industrial complex. Either that or you believe Putin invaded because the US DoD and its related war profiteers wanted him to.
(How would that be Z’s fault? I don’t know. Probably has something to do with Hunter Biden. Let’s get Giuliani some no run hair die and put him on the case)
Appalled (db571c) — 12/8/2022 @ 11:57 amWith regard to Russia, this from Klon Kitchen, who met with experts on the region, made this troubling comment about the use of wiper ware on Poland:
There is no level that Russia won’t stoop to and nothing is off the table with regard to expanding their reach.
More:
Dana (1225fc) — 12/8/2022 @ 12:25 pm@68. Except it is. You just won’t accept the reality and histories of the region not the motivations of the MIC– unless you have a hefty portfolio full of Raytheon stocks. Spend some time on it and you’ll discover it’s been a bloody mess there for centuries– long before there was a United States to sponge off of; it’s a European mess to manage and not an American problem. But if you wanna play Planet Policeman, sans a NATO backstop, plenty of conflicts listed up thread not on your TV screen or hand gadget to meddle with. Not to mention a southern U.S. border wide open– but then, that mean congress-critters must deal with problems facing tax-paying voters who can vote them out.
@67. Nobody? All evidence to the contrary- from Z’s own performing lips. So you’re saying Z misrepresented his ‘Titanic’ position w/evidence presented to him by the better powers that be and ignored the multiple iceberg warnings. Got it.
DCSCA (4ff92c) — 12/8/2022 @ 1:29 pmHe cried he wailed
EPWJ (650a62) — 12/8/2022 @ 1:38 pmbut his stature did not grow
Oh mommy Oh mommy
they wont let me glow
My facts my figures
from my own mindless bent
no one listens to me
was his own inner lament
If “prestige” or another piece of malicious code were to break out and do similar damage, it could be considered an attack on NATO and potentially trigger treaty obligations. Putin is already tap dancing on a landmine and expanding cyberattacks to Poland could prove to be a deadly misstep.
Using Western technologies- drones and such- not of Ukrainian origin to attack Russian airbases w/armed, nuclear capable bombers on the tarmacs is tapdancing around Armageddon. De-escalation and diplomacy w/a partitioning of sort all but certain is how Ukraine and Russia will end this… until the next time they go at it this century.
DCSCA (4ff92c) — 12/8/2022 @ 1:50 pm#71
You have your talking points and you will go through them regardless of the question. It reads like this
Q — what would you do in Z’s shoes?
A — well he is a posturing idiot like Castro and there is a lot of history and military industrial complex.
Your disdain for Z will remain a mystery because you are not explaining it.
Appalled (364132) — 12/8/2022 @ 2:09 pmAppalled (364132) — 12/8/2022 @ 2:09 pm
I don’t know if it’s a failure of comprehension, or just a stubbornness to give a simple, direct answer (without bloviating).
norcal (862cdb) — 12/8/2022 @ 2:28 pm@73. Except it is. You simply won’t accept it. No competent leader would be in ‘Z’s shoes.’ You’re rooting for Bugs in the Moran/Caponme gang war. I don’t give a damn about either– and certainly don’t support the U.S. Treasury Department financing their gang nor providing ’em with tommy guns. Even the Israeli government denied ’em Iron Dome technologies due to the co-development w/Raytheon, proprietary elements– and concern over issues w/Syria due to Putin. Lotta rubble there now– wanna go duke it out w/ Vlad in the Middle East, too? Trump fired off cruise missiles and smacked ’em in the snout PDQ over chemical weapons use:
Trump Orders Missile Attack in Retaliation for Syrian Chemical Strikes
https://www.defense.gov/News/News-Stories/Article/Article/1144601/trump-orders-missile-attack-in-retaliation-for-syrian-chemical-strikes/
But then, mean tweets and ‘Orange Man Bad’…. then the Pentagon immediately said it needed to replesnish the missile inventory- ‘ka-ching’ tallied Raytheon- and, then, you know, our bold Squinty laid down the law to the Rooskie =sarc=:
“If I’m President, Putin’s Days of Tyranny and Trying to Intimidate U.S. and Eastern Europe are Over… Vladimir Putin doesn’t want me to be President. He doesn’t want me to be our nominee. If you’re wondering why — it’s because I’m the only person in this field who’s ever gone toe-to-toe with him.”’ – https://www.cnsnews.com/blog/craig-bannister/biden-2019-if-im-president-putins-days-tyranny-and-trying-intimidate-us
Get wise to what’s going on here, who the racketeers are, who is winning and who is getting suckered– the Pentagon shilling for the MIC-on borrowed bucks from the PRC and burdening the U.S. taxpayers. The shills who sell aircraft carriers literally for a penny a piece rather than refurbish for storm and disaster duty.
DCSCA (3cc7f5) — 12/8/2022 @ 2:53 pm@74. The answer is there- you just don’t like it.
DCSCA (3cc7f5) — 12/8/2022 @ 2:54 pmThe answer is there- you just don’t like it.
DCSCA (3cc7f5) — 12/8/2022 @ 2:54 pm
When you have several people pointing out how you didn’t answer a question, it would behoove you to think on it.
One can lead a horse to water…
norcal (862cdb) — 12/8/2022 @ 2:58 pm@77. Get wise; they don’t like the answer because the facts expose their lack of any rationale for Ukraine support, beyond the weepies.
DCSCA (3cc7f5) — 12/8/2022 @ 3:02 pmOk. So the answer it’s Ukraine’s fault that Putin attacked it.
Appalled (337087) — 12/8/2022 @ 3:44 pmLincoln did get the support of Russia. In fact, he even inspired the Czar to free the serfs.
And he got the support of many Britons:
Jim Miller (f29931) — 12/8/2022 @ 4:05 pmSomebody’s practicing electrical grid attacks.
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 12/8/2022 @ 4:44 pmJust for the record — DCSCA did finally provide something responsive in his #73:
Now, this amounts to it’s Z’s fault that Putin invaded his country. Which reminds me of the “if you weren’t wearing that sexy dress, you wouldn’t have been raped” approach to argumentation. (In other words, this would be offensive if it were so blamed foolish.)
I won’t mock DCSCA for his reasoning. If you want an answer, you don’t mock someone for giving it. But I will note that it seems his very expansive Ukraninan thinking is based on a total absurdity. Genuinely too bad, as we are drifting towards a “whatever Ukraine does is jake with us” viewpoint here. It’s best to have someone providing a counterweight to irrational exuberance.
Appalled (83c0b6) — 12/9/2022 @ 6:55 am