Patterico's Pontifications

12/2/2022

Weekend Open Thread

Filed under: General — Dana @ 9:17 am



[guest post by Dana]

While working on today’s post, I really had to resist writing a detailed review of the gowns that Mrs. Biden and Mrs. Macron wore to last night’s state dinner, and focus instead on more relevant (but not as pretty!) news items.

First news item

President Biden, heeding President Macron’s push for negotiations with Russia, said that he is open to talking to President Vladimir Putin with conditions:

…he would talk to President Vladimir V. Putin, but only in consultation with NATO allies and only if the Russian leader indicated he was “looking for a way to end the war.”

Mr. Biden’s public expression of conditioned willingness to reach out to Mr. Putin gratified French officials and provided unexpected support for President Emmanuel Macron’s outreach. Mr. Biden noted that Mr. Putin had shown no interest yet in ending his invasion, but said that if that changed, “I’ll be happy to sit down with Putin to see what he has in mind.”

Macron made clear that France would continue to support Ukraine, and “will never urge Ukrainians to make a compromise that will not be acceptable for them.”

Russia, however, has its own conditions they want met before entering into any discussions to end the war, and those include the four Ukrainian regions annexed by Russia:

Spokesman Dmitry Peskov told reporters earlier that Mr Putin remained open to talks aimed “to ensure our interests”. But Moscow was certainly not ready to accept US conditions: “What did President Biden say in fact? He said that negotiations are possible only after Putin leaves Ukraine.”

It complicated the search for a mutual basis for talks, he said, that the US did not recognise “new territories” in Ukraine. At the end of September, President Putin declared four Ukrainian regions as part of Russia, but while Russian forces in eastern Ukraine occupy most of Luhansk, their invasion of Donetsk has stalled and they are on the back foot in Kherson and Zaporizhzhia in the south.

This all reminds me of this. No off-ramps, just get out of Ukraine:

Another item of agreement between the French leader and President Biden was to hold Russia accountable for “widely documented atrocities and war crimes” in Ukraine.

P.S. A new report claims that Putin fell down some stairs and injured his tailbone, and that he has stomach cancer: “The channel claims to have sources in Putin’s entourage and said medics ‘arrived within a few minutes, but could not immediately examine the president’. This is because he is suffering ‘cancer of the gastrointestinal tract, as a result of which he already experiences serious problems with digestion’ – and the fall caused an ‘involuntary’ reaction. ‘Before the examination, the doctors escorted the president to the bathroom and helped to clean up.’”

Second news item

Protests in Iran expand:

Women in Iran’s Sistan-Baluchistan on Friday joined nationwide protests sparked by Mahsa Amini’s death, in what a rights group called a “rare” move for women in the staunchly conservative Sunni Muslim province.

Online videos showed dozens of women on the streets of the provincial capital Zahedan holding banners that declared “Woman, life, freedom” — one of the main slogans of the protest movement that erupted in mid-September.

“Whether with hijab, whether without it, onwards to revolution,” women clad in black, body-covering chadors chanted in videos posted on Twitter and verified by AFP.

Iranian protester who cheered on a U.S. victory over Iran at the World Cup in Doha, paid a high price:

A friend of Iranian midfielder Saeid Ezatolahi was shot and killed by his country’s security forces Tuesday after the team’s loss to the United States at the World Cup, a group of human rights activists told The Guardian.

Mehran Samak, 27, was reportedly shot after honking his car horn in the port city of Bandar Anzali, located in Iran’s northwestern Gilan province. The incident came amid a wave of anti-government protests across the country.

Per the Center for Human Rights in Iran via the Guardian, Samak had been celebrating the World Cup loss, which clinched the Americans’ advance into the knockout stages of the tournament and sent Iran home. Per local journalists, some Iranians have been celebrating the loss as a blow to Iran’s government, which has been attempting to suppress the protests sparked by Mahsa Amini.

Third news item

Done:

A rural Arizona county certified its midterm election results on Thursday, following the orders of a judge who ruled that Republican supervisors broke the law when they refused to sign off on the vote count by this week’s deadline.

Two Republicans on Cochise County’s three-member board of supervisors balked for weeks about certifying the election, even as the deadline passed on Monday. They did not cite any problems with the election results. Rather, they say they weren’t satisfied that the machines used to tabulate ballots were properly certified for use in elections, though state and federal election officials have said they were.

Fourth news item

Grim numbers for Trump:

6. Former President Trump is generally liked by Republicans with 70% viewing him favorably but this measurement has dissipated markedly from past surveys, and he is no longer seen as the head of the party by GOP voters.

• That understood, Donald Trump is viewed unfavorably by almost one in three (29%) voters who backed Republicans in the midterms, including 33% of “Reagan Republicans,” 34% of “Traditional Republicans,” 34% of Fox News viewers, and even one in five (21%) voters who backed him in 2020.

• Additionally, 66% of Independents view Trump unfavorably, including 52% who view him “very unfavorably.”

• A plurality of Republicans (40%) — including 50% of self-described “Traditional Republicans” and “Reagan Republicans” — say Donald Trump should no longer be the leader and face of the Republican Party while 37% say he should be.

• Among Fox News viewers, 45% say Trump should no longer be the leader and face of the GOP while 35% say he should be.

7. Florida Governor Ron DeSantis’ net favorability ratings surpass Trump among Republicans (+66 vs. +44), Fox News viewers (+58 vs. +27), and Trump’s own 2020 voters (+69 vs. +54).

• DeSantis is also well liked by a broad coalition of Republicans with a 68%/0% favorable/unfavorable rating among self-described “Trump Republicans;” 71%/9% among “Traditional Republicans;” and 82%/5% among “Reagan Republicans.”

• DeSantis has more crossover appeal than both Trump and Biden with a net -3 favorability rating among Independent voters compared to -27 for Biden and -39 for Trump.

• Among split-ticket voters, DeSantis’ net favorability rating is +7, Biden’s is -21, and Trump’s is -36.

Fifth news item

More bad news for Trump:

A unanimous federal appeals court on Thursday ended an independent review of documents seized from former President Donald Trump’s Florida estate, removing a hurdle the Justice Department said had delayed its criminal investigation into the retention of top-secret government information.

The decision by the three-judge panel represents a significant win for federal prosecutors, clearing the way for them to use as part of their investigation the entire tranche of documents seized during an Aug. 8 FBI search of Mar-a-Lago. It also amounts to a sharp repudiation of arguments by Trump’s lawyers, who for months had said that the former president was entitled to have a so-called “special master” conduct a neutral review of the thousands of documents taken from the property.

Sixth news item

A very slight easing up of Covid restrictions in China:

Vice Premier Sun Chunlan said at a meeting Wednesday that China faces a new Covid situation “as the Omicron variant’s pathogenic nature weakens, vaccination becomes more common and [there’s] an accumulation of experience with Covid prevention and control.” That’s according to a CNBC translation of the Chinese state media report late last night.

Also on Wednesday, the Guangzhou city district hardest hit by Covid said it would allow most restaurants to resume in-store dining, and entertainment venues can gradually reopen.

“We believe Sun’s speech, in addition to the notable easing of Covid control measures in Guangzhou yesterday, sends yet another strong signal that the zero-Covid policy will end within the next few months,” Nomura’s Chief China Economist Ting Lu and a team said in a report Thursday.

But while Covid restrictions might be slightly eased, China reminds citizens of their heavy-handed oppression of the population:

Chinese authorities have initiated the highest “emergency response” level of censorship, according to leaked directives, including a crackdown on VPNs and other methods of bypassing online censorship after unprecedented protests demonstrated widespread public frustration with the zero-Covid policy.

The crackdown, including the tracking and questioning of protesters, comes alongside the easing of pandemic restrictions in an apparent carrot-and-stick approach to an outpouring of public grievances. During an extraordinary week in China, protests against zero-Covid restrictions included criticism of the authoritarian rule of Xi Jinping – which was further highlighted by the death of the former Chinese leader Jiang Zemin.

Leaked directives issued to online Chinese platforms, first published by a Twitter account devoted to sharing protest-related information, have revealed authorities’ specific concerns about the growing interest among citizens in circumventing China’s so-called “Great Firewall”. The demonstrations have been strictly censored, but protesters and other citizens have this week used VPNs to access non-Chinese news and social media apps that are banned in China.

Protesters were spurned to protest Covid restrictions after a deadly fire that took three hours to be extinguished and killed 10 people who were unable to escape the blaze due to the draconian Covid restrictions which saw the apartment building’s doors being locked from the outside.

Seventh news item

President Biden faces backlash over proposal:

President Joe Biden is recommending that South Carolina, the state that lifted him to front-runner status in the 2020 primaries, kick off Democrats’ 2024 presidential nominating contest, according to a top Democratic source familiar with the plan.

In doing so, he has set off a frenzied scramble among competing early states that are apoplectic over the proposal.

The proposed order would do away with the Iowa caucuses’ leading things off. Instead, South Carolina would go first, followed by New Hampshire and Nevada on the same day, trailed by Georgia and then Michigan, according to two senior party officials.

Driving the President’s proposal:

In a letter…to the DNC’s Rules and Bylaws Committee, Biden, who did not specify his preferred order of states, wrote, “For decades, Black voters in particular have been the backbone of the Democratic Party but have been pushed to the back of the early primary process.”

He also said Democrats “should no longer allow caucuses as part of our nominating process,” dealing an expected blow to Iowa.

Ah:

Eighth news item

Maine governor blasts President Biden for serving lobster at State Dinner with President Macron:

Democratic Maine congressman Jared Golden is attacking President Joe Biden for approving onerous regulations that put Maine lobstermen “out of business.”

The White House on Tuesday had 200 live lobsters shipped from Maine to Washington, D.C., for a Thursday State Dinner, prompting Golden’s ire.

“If the Biden White House can prioritize purchasing 200 Maine lobsters for a fancy dinner,” Golden tweeted from his official account, then the president “should also take the time to meet with the Maine lobstermen his administration is currently regulating out of business.”

Ninth news item

Reparations making the rounds. First up, Rhode Island:

Providence, R.I., is joining the growing ranks of cities trying to rectify their history of discrimination against Black residents through reparations programs.

Mayor Jorge Elorza (D), with Black residents by his side, recently signed a $10 million budget for the Providence Municipal Reparations program. “The radical thing that we did was we put Black voices in the center of city policymaking,” Elorza said in an interview.

While Elorza has focused on how the program would help the city’s Black and Native American residents, there’s a hitch: It’s race-neutral.

Black and Native American Providence residents qualify automatically, but the city has also established a separate, income criteria that could include about half its White residents.

That has angered critics who say it is unclear how much of the money will flow to the Black residents, who make up 12 percent of the population, and have been harmed by systemic racism.

And from California:

A California task force studying the long-term effects of slavery and systemic racism on black residents in the state has estimated a whopping $569 billion in reparations is owed to the descendants of enslaved people, according to a report.

The nine-member panel concluded that black Californians whose ancestors were in the US in the 19th century are due $223,200 each due to housing discrimination practices utilized from 1933 to 1977, the New York Times reported…

A history of housing discrimination against black Californians makes up a significant portion of the compensation the panel recommends. Several black communities were bought out or seized through eminent domain to be bulldozed for infrastructure projects, according to the panel’s findings…In addition to housing discrimination, the panel has targeted four other areas to study — mass incarceration, unjust property seizures, devaluation of black businesses and health care.

MISCELLANEOUS

They can never be thanked enough:

Have a great weekend!

–Dana

550 Responses to “Weekend Open Thread”

  1. Good morning.

    Dana (1225fc)

  2. What’s missing in Biden’s discussions about negotiating with Putin is Ukraine, as in, Zelenskyy should have a seat at that table in any of these discussions.
    Also, Biden is missing an important precondition, that Putin recognizes Ukraine’s right to exist.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  3. I agree, Paul. The whole thing tells me that Biden is acquiesing to Macron’s long push for negotiations. Whether he really agrees or is just reinforcing the US/France relationship, I’m not sure. This is why I re-posted the Finnish Prime Minister’s blunt and bottom-line answer to making any provision for Putin to end the war: The only way out of the conflict is for Russia to leave Ukraine (and recognize their right to exist).

    Dana (1225fc)

  4. The French may not be much on warring, but they excel in surrendering.

    Honestly, I don’t get it. The Ukrainians are the ones who are doing the dying and the suffering. What’s it costing the cheese-eating surrender monkeys? A possible eurocent increase in the price of a glass of vin ordinaire?

    nk (223b56)

  5. Macron and Scholz have been too pusillanimous and too accommodating to Putin, IMO, while giving Zelenskyy some support, but not as an equal.
    The Ukrainian leader isn’t a potted plant. His country gets a vote, and that vote should heavily favor Ukraine, given all the damage Putin has unilaterally done.
    Ms. Marin has it exactly right, and I trust that she was a big driver in getting Finland getting into NATO.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  6. I think the ide of even a ceasefire is totally unrealistic now.

    The options are:

    1. Ukraine losing. A humaniarian disaster and a great danger this will not stop.

    2. Ukraine continuing to defeat Russia on the battlefield, which for some raises questions of Putin escalating. (he’s more likely to escalate, like by involving Belarus and attacking Moldova) if it goes in favor of Russia

    3. A non-frozen conflict like the Korean War between 1951 and 1953.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  7. eBay is getting worse, although a very big majority of transactions are still OK.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  8. nk (223b56) — 12/2/2022 @ 10:14 am

    Honestly, I don’t get it. The Ukrainians are the ones who are doing the dying and the suffering. What’s it costing the cheese-eating surrender monkeys?

    Macron is frightened that Putin may use nuclear weapons if the war turns to much against him — sort of like Germany in 1917 resorting to unrestricted submarine warfare.

    The alternative to Ukrainian gains however is tot negotiations, but bloody conflict.

    In the meantime the Ukrainians should not engage in battle at for Bakhmut. Russia is stupid to be fighting so hard for it — Ukraine should not be also. Let them have it – it’s destroyed. Ukraine can go after other places. They don’t need to get their own soldiers killed over it. Let the Wagner Group remain there under siege.

    A U.S. rule during world War II – no more than 2% casualties.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  9. Putin will use weapons of mass destruction only if his rule is about to end, like if Moscow is in danger of being overrun. Long before that he will try to sue for peace on his own initiative which is a key requirement for this war to end. There must be no attempt to pressure or entice him into negotiations because that will be counterprductive . Negotiations by themselves mean nothing.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  10. An intervention in Haiti is pending by U.ZS. supported troops – no U.S. ones but maybe the French Foreign Legion (it is close to becoming a narco-state that keeps people from getting food or medicine.)

    https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/29/world/americas/haiti-gangs-foreign-intervention.html

    After days of gunfights in early November, Haitian police officers emerged triumphant: They had finally liberated the nation’s biggest port from the gangs that had taken it over for two months.

    But when members of Haiti’s SWAT team returned to the shantytown that surrounds the port just days later, they still did not feel safe enough to even leave their armored truck….

    ..Now, fearing that the humanitarian crisis engulfing Haiti could spur mass migration to the United States and elsewhere, some top Biden administration officials are pushing to send a multinational armed force to the country, several current and former officials say, after the Haitian government made an appeal for such an intervention last month.

    But the United States doesn’t want its own troops included in that force, even though officials fear that the tumult in Haiti will send an even bigger wave of migrants to American shores…

    …Haiti’s government took the extreme step of requesting foreign armed intervention last month to curb the unrest subsuming the nation. It was an explicit acknowledgment of how desperate the instability has become, in a country that remains deeply resentful of past foreign interventions.

    While United Nations peacekeepers were last stationed in Haiti in 2010, they brought cholera to the country, scientists say, causing one of the worst outbreaks in modern times. Nearly 10,000 Haitians died, and respect for the United Nations in Haiti was “forever destroyed,” Ban Ki-moon, the U.N. secretary general at the time, later wrote.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  11. P.S. A new report claims

    There are a lot of Internet news sites that are about as reliable as a supermarket tabloid. Not that a supermarket tabloid is always wrong (e.g. John Edwards)

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  12. A rural Arizona county certified its midterm election results on Thursday, following the orders of a judge who ruled that Republican supervisors broke the law when they refused to sign off on the vote count by this week’s deadline

    Irrespective of the issues at hand, a law that criminalizes a vote by elected officials is a bit off-putting.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  13. Their complaints were not even about their own results.

    Sammy FInkelman (1d215a)

  14. Some Iranians that my wife has been in sporadic contact with (due to government firewalls) asked us to pray for the US to win. They said that the team was a symbol of the regime and that the team members and their families had been threatened if they didn’t perform. Apparently the opposition to the regime is quite widespread.

    It was a bit surprising that they were asking non-Muslims to pray.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  15. The New York Post, again, hits the Biden Administration from the left and from the right:

    https://nypost.com/2022/11/30/ice-needs-to-get-its-act-together-as-migrants-freeze-waiting-for-help-do-something-joe

    (headline in printed paper: ICE Must Stop Torturing Migrants

    First, Team Biden opened the border to waves of illegal migrants. Then it failed to support the many communities overwhelmed by influxes of people with few resources who can’t legally work here. Now, Biden’s Immigration and Customs Enforcement agency is failing to process those who are seeking official “asylum applicant” status so they can legally work.

    The Post and others have documented how hundreds of migrants, including small children, camp out overnight in bitter cold temperatures hoping to meet with ICE workers the next day.

    The conditions are inhumane — a mother was seen breastfeeding her baby in near-freezing temps — and people risk hypothermia as they wait in line over 10 hours (sometimes 25!).

    More outrageous: Folks with meetings set via the ICE Appointment Scheduler still get turned away without being seen. After hours-long waits outside 26 Federal Plaza in Lower Manhattan, they learn that applicants are seen on a “first come, first served basis,” regardless.

    Migrants still being turned away despite lining up for hours outside NYC ICE offices

    “After 500 people, they are finished,” a security guard told The Post. ICE officials haven’t formally confirmed the 500-a-day limit, but something like that fits what’s happening….

    Sammy FInkelman (1d215a)

  16. It’s also of note that the regime tried to get the Khomeini and Rafsanjani families to call for an end to the demonstrations, but they declined. When the descendants of the founder of the regime are refusing to support it, you know the regime is in real trouble.

    As anti-government protests swept across Iran last month, its top leaders made a secret appeal to two of the Islamic Republic’s founding families, the moderate Rafsanjani and Khomeini clans that hard-liners had pushed out of power, said people familiar with the talks.

    Iran’s national-security chief, Ali Shamkhani, asked representatives of the families to speak out publicly to calm the unrest. If that happened, he said, liberalizing measures sought by demonstrators could follow, the people said.

    The families refused, the people said.

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/iran-protests-government-mahsa-amini-11669137860?st=wef3xuxjkhnn708&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  17. You think Biden is liberal or progressive?

    Not so:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/01/us/politics/biden-immigration-asylum-restrictions.html

    Biden Administration Considers Migrant Restrictions Similar to Trump Policies

    The Biden administration is considering substantial new limits on the number of migrants who could apply for asylum in the United States, according to people familiar with the proposal, which would expand restrictions similar to those first put in place along the border by former President Donald J. Trump.

    The plan is one of several being debated by President Biden’s top aides as the country confronts a high number of illegal crossings at the border. It would prohibit migrants who are fleeing persecution from seeking refuge in the United States unless they were first denied safe harbor by another country, like Mexico.

    People familiar with the discussions said the new policy, if adopted, could go into effect as soon as this month, just as the government stops using a public health rule that was put in place at the beginning of the coronavirus pandemic by the Trump administration and became a key policy to manage the spike in crossings during Mr. Biden’s tenure. A federal judge has ordered the administration to stop using the health rule on Dec. 21.

    But the idea of broadly prohibiting migrants from seeking asylum strikes directly at the heart of decades of American and international law that has shaped the United States’ role as a place of safety for displaced and fearful people across the globe.

    Of all

    Sammy FInkelman (1d215a)

  18. “If the Biden White House can prioritize purchasing 200 Maine lobsters for a fancy dinner,” Golden tweeted from his official account, then the president “should also take the time to meet with the Maine lobstermen his administration is currently regulating out of business.”

    This doesn’t really mean anything post hoc. Sending a message would have been denying the purchase and telling Biden explicitly to go F himself in a collective statement from the lobster farmers and signed by the Governor. It’s not like President Pudding Brain actually cares about anything these days but what flavor of ice cream he’s having for dessert.

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d)

  19. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/28/us/russian-activists-asylum.html

    … Certain that they were on the brink of being conscripted to serve as medics on the front lines, or imprisoned for their political activity, the couple decided to flee.

    They managed to make it to Mexico in mid-April. Two weeks later, they drove to a U.S. port of entry, handed over their passports and requested asylum, expecting their first taste of true freedom. Instead, their hands were cuffed, their feet shackled and they were flown to remote immigration detention centers in rural Louisiana. It would be six months before they would see each other again.

    ….As Vladimir Putin cracks down on dissidents and arrests draft dodgers, growing numbers of Russians are making their way across the U.S. southern border. But contrary to their expectations of asylum and freedom, many of them are being put into immigration detention centers that resemble prisons….

    …Many asylum seekers are released and allowed to argue their cases later in court. But thousands are sent to detention centers, where it is difficult to secure lawyers and collect evidence, and the chances of winning asylum are extremely slim.,,,

    …ICE has not released statistics on the nationalities of migrants being held behind bars, but lawyers who work regularly with migrants say Russian asylum seekers appear to have been detained at relatively high rates in recent months — sometimes with bonds set in excess of $30,000. Some Russians have remained incarcerated for months under conditions they describe as extremely harsh.

    “Proportionately, compared to people from other countries, there are more Russians being sent to detention,” said Svetlana Kaff, a San Francisco-based immigration lawyer who said she has been flooded with requests for help.

    Like the young doctors who were held in Louisiana, many said they had come to the United States thinking they would be welcomed as allies in America’s push for democracy in Russia and Ukraine.

    Olga Nikitina, who fled Russia with her husband after he was imprisoned there multiple times, spent five months in the same facility as Ms. Shemiatina. “The whole time I was there, they treated us like garbage,” said Ms. Nikitina, 33. “I called hotlines, but it did not help in any way.”

    Her husband, Aleksandr Balashov, 33, was detained for four months at a facility in Batavia, N.Y., where he says officers told him and others that they had no rights because they had entered the country illegally.

    Ivan Sokolovski, 25, another activist, has been held at Pine Prairie for seven months. He recently lost his asylum case and said he fears that he will be deported to his death. “It would have been more humane to be shot dead at the border than to be held in prison so long,” he said.

    Human rights groups have for years documented the prolonged confinement, medical negligence and mistreatment of immigrant detainees, especially those housed in for-profit contract facilities like those at Pine Prairie and Basile, 30 miles away, where Ms. Shemiatina was held.

    Russian asylum-seekers interviewed said they have been at the mercy of guards who treat them with indifference and, not infrequently, hostility.

    If your conduct is like that of hatred, your emotions will follow.

    The only thing they know is that they had better not kill people or be complicit in their death or permanent injury.

    Anything else is open season.

    Sammy FInkelman (1d215a)

  20. 18. Factory Working Orphan (bce27d) — 12/2/2022 @ 12:10 pm

    It’s not like President Pudding Brain actually cares about anything these days but what flavor of ice cream he’s having for dessert.

    He cares about winning re-election — so much so that he wants to rearrange the order of the Democratic primaries in 2024, to put South Carolina first.

    It’s not only the victory, it’s scaring off other contenders.

    Sammy FInkelman (1d215a)

  21. The penultimate previous ruler of China , Jiang Zemin, died on Wednesday age 96. I wonder if Xi Jinping rushed his death.

    Sammy FInkelman (1d215a)

  22. • Additionally, 66% of Independents view Trump unfavorably, including 52% who view him “very unfavorably.”

    This is the killer. This, alone, explains the midterms.

    Trump supporters point to Trump’s base within the party, saying that candidates who don’t support Trump will necessarily lose. This may be true, but the center — those who are not impressed by either party and avoid extremes, will never side with a Trump supporting candidate.

    So, the question to ask the Trump supporters is this: despite what you may think about center-leaning Republicans (RINOs in your worldview), their vote, along with your vote, is necessary to defeat the Socialists. When confronted with a Trumpish candidate, these “RINOs” vote “present” or for some moderate Democrat. That’s not to punish you, but to show a distinct preference.

    Are you willing to vote for a non-Trump (or even not-Trump) candidate, or do you prefer the Democrat?

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  23. Given a choice between DeSantis and Trump, I easily choose DeSantis. But there are others that I would vote for instead of DeSantis.

    This may turn out like 1968, when McCarthy’s near-victory in New Hampshire over LBJ forced the presumptive nominee to withdraw — and led to a candidate free-for-all and the wild convention in Chicago.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  24. From the link about Maine lobsters:

    A 2021 National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) regulation intended to protect the North Atlantic right whale would “shut down Maine’s lobster fishery by 2030,” sounding “a death knell for our nation’s lobster industry,” Golden and other Maine lawmakers wrote last year to Biden. The rule would also not protect the whales, the lawmakers wrote, noting that since 2002, Maine lobstering has not caused “a single right whale serious injury or mortality.”

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  25. In 1968, there were no campaign finance restrictions. Eugene McCarthy got most of his money from one man, Stewart Mott.

    Now only billionaires can enter after the middle of the previous year.

    And then there’s the idea that a candidate has to win on the first ballot.

    And how with the current vetting system, can you pick a vice president if the presidential nominee isn’t known at least several weeks in advance?

    Sammy FInkelman (1d215a)

  26. Biden wants no additional oil drilling in the USA but it is OK in other countries where it doesn’t count against an imaginary US quota, and anyway its not our fault..

    Sammy FInkelman (1d215a)

  27. Ukraine losing. A humaniarian disaster and a great danger this will not stop.

    You misspelled “genocide.”

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  28. eBay is getting worse, although a very big majority of transactions are still OK.

    Two things:

    1) Porch pirates. In Soros-prosecutor areas, these crimes are not prosecuted. Even when you have hi-rez camera stills of the thief, the police have other things to do that arrest someone who will not be charged.

    2) Customers who falsely claim the package they received was stolen.

    Not only do these things make some sales difficult (e.g. that $700 comic book), but to the degree that eBay steps up to make things right, their fees necessarily increase.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  29. Macron is frightened that Putin may use nuclear weapons if the war turns to much against him

    All that will do is raise the size of the eventual loss. At the moment, his two main supporters are China and Iran, neither of which is experiencing huge popular support. He uses nukes and — even if nothing else happens — every nation will turn against him. Maybe even Cuba.

    Right now, Putin has to win to stay in power. He uses nukes and simply staying alive will be a struggle and “Ukraine” will not be the largest concern.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  30. It’s not like President Pudding Brain actually cares about anything these days but what flavor of ice cream he’s having for dessert.

    I think that’s listed on the weekly meal schedule.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  31. Are you willing to vote for a non-Trump (or even not-Trump) candidate, or do you prefer the Democrat?
    Kevin M (1ea396) — 12/2/2022 @ 12:19 pm

    the non-Trump “please clap” wing of the party have made it a point to set an example, and I suggest we all follow it

    I’ll be voting democrat

    JF (0a139a)

  32. Now only billionaires can enter after the middle of the previous year.

    PACs and other independent groups can choose to support a challenger and and raise all kinds of money. They can even tell someone they will support him if he runs. The candidate just cannot tell them how to provide that support.

    If these rules had existed in 1968, Mott could have supported Gene just fine. Without colluding, he could simply have regurgitated McCarthy’s message in ads.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  33. I’ll be voting democrat

    You can never ever tell someone that Socialism is their fault.

    Others voted for Biden because they preferred anyone other than Trump and Biden wasn’t that terrible. This wa an act of integrity

    You however will vote for the Democrat out of sheer spite. This is the act of an asshat.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  34. Donald Trump is a clear and present danger to the nation. And I mean that in the sense it was used in the 50s to bar Communists from government service.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  35. I wonder if Biden will ask Putin if Hunter can serve on the board of Gazprom as one of his conditions.
    We’ve had a great run of grifters as candidates and office holders. Both Clintons, Biden (act one VP and act two pending), Trump.
    Very accomplished group. USA USA USA. I don’t know why the Republicans are so worried about corruption in Ukraine. Maybe they are not worried about corruption and are still pissed off about the Ukraine first Vindman snitch

    steveg (33ba39)

  36. This is the act of an asshat.
    Kevin M (1ea396) — 12/2/2022 @ 12:52 pm

    whether it’s voting, or commenting rules, the same rules clearly don’t apply to you

    as for “they preferred anyone other than Trump”, the same people won’t be voting for “Trump lite” DeSantis so i suppose it’s better to be an asshat than repeatedly and comically wrong

    JF (0a139a)

  37. The left is not the only ones banning free speech. Angela Davis was stopped from speaking at event in nyack ny as to radical. A babtist church say she can speak there like marian anderson singing at the steps of the lincoln memorial.

    asset (7efa2c)

  38. Mayor lori lightfoot has taken at least 53 thousand dollars from lobbyist despite city ban on taking money and gifts from lobbyists. (DU)

    asset (7efa2c)

  39. Everyone’s perspective on this will be different. But while I think Desantis is bad and doubt I’ll vote for him in the general I don’t think he’s so bad that I need to vote against him in the way i did for Trump. He has an opportunity to change my mind about that. But If the election were tomorrow I’d probably leave the box for president blank.

    Will for sure vote for someone in the GOP primary other then Trump. Who would depend on circumstances. If winning my state were likely to have an impact on the primary and Desantis was 1st or 2nd I’d likely vote for Desantis in the primary to keep Trump away from the White House. Again, he has the opportunity to change my mind on that with additional authoritarian nonsense.

    Time123 (7fbc3c)

  40. Kevin, saying that JF’s position is the act of an A$$hat is rude and violation of the commenting rules. You should probably apologize and find other ways to express how selfish, childish, imbecilic, and mule headed you think such a position is.

    Time123 (b27463)

  41. #31

    the non-Trump “please clap” wing of the party have made it a point to set an example, and I suggest we all follow it

    I’ll be voting democrat

    Trump would approve and has. That’s why we have two Democratic Senators in Georgia. And why we are likely to continue to do so.

    Appalled (03f53c)

  42. WORDLE in 3, with my usual starting word.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  43. the non-Trump “please clap” wing of the party have made it a point to set an example, and I suggest we all follow it

    I’ll be voting democrat

    JF (0a139a) — 12/2/2022 @ 12:48 pm

    JF, if you keep this up you will hold the Guinness world record for longest case of Trumper butthurt.

    norcal (862cdb)

  44. whether it’s voting, or commenting rules, the same rules clearly don’t apply to you

    I did not say you were an asshat, which would have violated the commenting rules. I said that your planned future action would be that of an asshat.

    Pretty sure the mods know the difference.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  45. @18

    “If the Biden White House can prioritize purchasing 200 Maine lobsters for a fancy dinner,” Golden tweeted from his official account, then the president “should also take the time to meet with the Maine lobstermen his administration is currently regulating out of business.”

    This doesn’t really mean anything post hoc. Sending a message would have been denying the purchase and telling Biden explicitly to go F himself in a collective statement from the lobster farmers and signed by the Governor. It’s not like President Pudding Brain actually cares about anything these days but what flavor of ice cream he’s having for dessert.

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d) — 12/2/2022 @ 12:10 pm

    Am I the only one who really doesn’t care about this dinner?

    Is the “optic” jarring? Sure.

    Biden is the President, as such the stature of that office, Biden gets to do “state” dinners that are as opulent as afforded by his office.

    whembly (d116f3)

  46. @22

    Are you willing to vote for a non-Trump (or even not-Trump) candidate, or do you prefer the Democrat?

    Kevin M (1ea396) — 12/2/2022 @ 12:19 pm

    The right way to phrase the question.

    Furthermore, after the primaries, the next is “If Trump’s the nominee, are you voting for him? Or do you prefer Biden?”

    whembly (d116f3)

  47. the same people won’t be voting for “Trump lite” DeSantis

    Most have indicated they would. ANd I don’t think you understand, yet, WHY people did not vote for Trump. Many of them agreed with Trump’s policies (for the most part). They certainly agreed with his judge picks (for the most part).

    Their problem was that TRUMP, the man, was manifestly unfit to be anywhere near power. Petty, vindictive, willfully ignorant, mercurial, arbitrary, capricious, utterly self-centered and prone to fits of rage. These are terrible, not good, awful qualities in a chief executive at any firm, let alone our nation. The control of nuclear weapons squares the discomfort.

    Someone to the left-center without these issues, preferably with a GOP Congress to hold them in check, was to them a far better choice.

    But tell me, JF, why you think that a man with the attributes listed above is a good choice to be president? Or do you deny the description? If so, tell me what your evidence is for a calm, collected, steely-eyed President Trump.

    My guess is that you don’t dispute it, but you just wanted him to go postal on the people you hate.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  48. Kevin, saying that JF’s position is the act of an A$$hat is rude and violation of the commenting rules.

    See 44. Also LOL

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  49. #46

    As an independent (that group now 2/3rds in the Dem Camp because Trump), I prefer Biden. I will take Socialism over Fascism. And Trump 2.0 is abandoning any wispy pretence he once had.

    Yiu need to stop worrying about the care and feeding of the base and worry about persuadables. After all, there aren’t all that many JFs around.

    Appalled (03f53c)

  50. Furthermore, after the primaries, the next is “If Trump’s the nominee, are you voting for him? Or do you prefer Biden?”

    I will answer this directly by quoting from my last post:

    TRUMP, the man, was manifestly unfit to be anywhere near power. Petty, vindictive, willfully ignorant, mercurial, arbitrary, capricious, utterly self-centered and prone to fits of rage. These are terrible, not good, awful qualities in a chief executive at any firm, let alone our nation. The control of nuclear weapons squares the discomfort

    I will not vote for Trump to be the nominee, nor will I vote for him in the general election. I may vote for Biden. Or the LP candidate. Or Lord John Whorfin, who would be a marginally better choice.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  51. My issue with Trump, is the same when he was running for ’16 Presidency – Trump is NOT the best we can do from the GOP bench. Just about any other GOP candidate who ran in ’16 would’ve had an easier path to defeat Hillary Clinton then what Trump had to do.

    Same as now… We can easily identify potential candidates in DeSantis, Younkin or even Nikki Halley, who’d have an easier time in defeating Biden than Trump. With Trump in the race, it’s “about” Trump. Any other GOP candidate, then the election would in turn be a referendum of the Biden policies/administration.

    whembly (d116f3)

  52. How I missed “lying, cheating, and swindling” in that list I’ll never know.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  53. whembly, even if he wished otherwise, it would always be about Trump as his character outweighs any other issue.

    We have had presidents, and candidates with personality defects. Nixon (weaselness), Dole (evilness), Ford (IQ), McCain (half-baked notions) for the GOP. The Dems I won’t comment on as I never got much past policy. Biden entered office as impaired as Reagan was on leaving office. I cannot see him running again.

    But Trump is in a class by himself. The two things that people want from a president are stability and competence. He has neither, and that’s just for starters.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  54. Trump is NOT the best we can do from the GOP bench

    Of those that were still running in March 2016, who would have been worse?

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  55. @49 and @50

    First off, your positions is defensible.

    For me? I’m #NeverDemocrats and if Trump’s the nominee, Imma hold my nose and vote for him.

    I prefer the personal chaos and destructive antics of a Trump Whitehouse over the epically disastrous policies we’re living under these Biden/Democrat’s agendas. COVID-policies notwithstanding, the Trump years were manifestly better for America than any Democrat/Biden policies we’ve been seeing. I challenge anyone here to dispute that.

    Why do you think I’ve been so ADAMANT here about how important it is for folks to be ACTIVELY engaged during the primaries and at the grassroots? I don’t want Trump. But, I don’t want Democrats even more. I would MASSIVELY prefer a nasty, drawn out primary fight, where someone like DeSantis or Cruz or can not only beat Trump, but win in the general election against Biden.

    But, I’m only one voter who can only do “grassroots” stuff (ie, volunteer, phone banks, electioneer, etc). So, I implore everyone here reading my post – if you’re truly #NeverTrump, then get behind at Not-Trump candidate NOW and convince your social sphere around you to coalesce behind the Not-Trump choice.

    whembly (d116f3)

  56. Biden and Lobsters Gore and endangered Chilean Seabass
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-469277/Eco-warrior-Al-Gore-serves-endangered-fish-daughters-party.html

    They are elite and better than the rest of us, so rules and restrictions do not apply

    steveg (33ba39)

  57. @54

    Trump is NOT the best we can do from the GOP bench

    Of those that were still running in March 2016, who would have been worse?

    Kevin M (1ea396) — 12/2/2022 @ 2:22 pm

    I can’t think of any.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Republican_Party_presidential_primaries

    Ted Cruz
    Marco Rubio
    John Kasich
    Ben Carson
    Jeb Bush
    Rand Paul
    Mike Huckabee
    Carly Fiorina
    Chris Christie
    Jim Gilmore
    Rick Santorum

    If you accept the premise that Trump largely won because of the anti-Clinton vote (meaning, people voting Trump as a defensive vote, rather than voting FOR Trump)… then it stands to reason that any of the above candidates would’ve fared better than Trump.

    None has the crazed baggage that Trump (and Clinton) has.

    whembly (d116f3)

  58. Whembly, Strongly agree with your POV. I’m less motivated agains the Dems then you are but you’ve a really good point.

    Time123 (80dec3)

  59. whembly,

    I won’t vote for Trump in the general because I don’t want to see something like January 6th ever happen again. You know Trump will pardon those crazies, which will just increase the likelihood of a repeat sometime down the line, whether by the left or the right.

    norcal (862cdb)

  60. @59 I don’t care about those protestors. They “F’ed around” and “Found out”.

    I don’t care if, hypothetically, Trump ends up pardoning them.

    Don’t. Care.

    When I say I’m “#NeverDemocrats”… I mean it. And, I know I’m not the only one who thinks like that.

    So, again, if you’re truly #NeverTrump, you need to be involved in the primary to advance the Not-Trump candidate has much as you feasibly can. You can sit in front of your computer, pounding away at Patterico dot com, and think “you’ve done your part”.

    Nay… you must be much more involved than that. (it’s something I’m doing too)

    whembly (d116f3)

  61. Trump never really was able to pretend that he was going to follow rules and regulations, which was oddly refreshing.
    I always got the impression that if Trump’s daughter asked for an endangered species for dinner he’d dismiss objections “It’s my daughter. She wants Chilean Sea Bass” end of discussion. I get the same impression about Trump flying everywhere in his jet. He could give a rip about peoples handwringing over carbon footprints and he’s not going to pretend to buy carbon offsets or other BS. He wanted to go from A to B in his jet. End of story.

    That said, acting like Popeye “I am who I am” doesn’t make Trump a great President, but it probably is one of Trump’s finest attributes

    steveg (33ba39)

  62. …additionally, not only do what you can to back the chosen “Not-Trump” candidate, but if your 1st pick drops out, be flexible enough to support the other, stronger Not-Trump candidate in a crowded field.

    Don’t take your ball (vote) home when your preferred candidate didn’t get the momentum needed.

    whembly (d116f3)

  63. whembly,

    Sometimes there are bigger harms than lefty policies.

    We almost had a constitutional crisis with Trump trying to scare Pence into throwing out the election results, and people like Flynn and Eastman pushing something akin to martial law, you know, just while they “sort this out”. Horrible precedent.

    THAT is worse than socialist policies.

    With Trump, it’s just not the same old left/right dynamic.

    norcal (862cdb)

  64. And, whembly, to respond to your other point, I AM doing what I can to encourage friends and family to support DeSantis over Trump. So far, it seems to be working.

    norcal (862cdb)

  65. @64

    THAT is worse than socialist policies.

    With Trump, it’s just not the same old left/right dynamic.

    norcal (862cdb) — 12/2/2022 @ 3:31 pm

    I wholeheartedly disagree.

    Socialist/Communistist/Statist policies are far worse than anything that has transpired under the Trump years. Those policies are lasting… see ObamaCare. What “bad thing” Trump has done that would have the same sort of lasting impact than that of those socialist/Communistist/Statist policies???

    But, again, you need to pick your battles and what I’m advocating for is that we try to band together behind a “not-Trump” that can not only defeat Trump in the primary, but also beat Biden in the general election.

    For my money, that’s DeSantis. He’s the clear leader and yes, he’s not perfect (who is?), but he’s a MUCH better political candidate than Trump.

    In short: Recognize that there are political battles that must be won during the grassroots/primaries. But, once the general election season begins: It’s down to Biden v. ????.

    ???? get’s my vote over any Democrats.

    whembly (d116f3)

  66. @

    And, whembly, to respond to your other point, I AM doing what I can to encourage friends and family to support DeSantis over Trump. So far, it seems to be working.

    norcal (862cdb) — 12/2/2022 @ 3:35 pm

    : fist bump :

    whembly (d116f3)

  67. Socialist/Communistist/Statist policies are far worse than anything that has transpired under the Trump years.

    Bad policies can be voted out at the next election, but not if the politicians refuse to accept election results.

    Just because Trump failed this time doesn’t mean that something/someone similar might succeed in the future. Like Milton Friedman said, freedom is a rare and delicate plant.

    When people don’t trust the election process, it doesn’t matter what the policies are, because the end result will be chaos, followed by tyranny. Trump took us steps down that road, and that is why I won’t vote for him if he prevails in the primaries.

    norcal (862cdb)

  68. make that “not succeed”

    norcal (862cdb)

  69. > When people don’t trust the election process, it doesn’t matter what the policies are, because the end result will be chaos, followed by tyranny. Trump took us steps down that road, and that is why I won’t vote for him if he prevails in the primaries.

    This is so clearly the right answer that i’ve basically concluded that most of the Republican party are simply fine with tyranny as long as they get to be the tyrants, and it means that most Republican officeholders (there are exceptions, to be sure) have earned a permanent vote against from me.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  70. Yes, aphrael, and the fact that they’re doing this stuff does not reflect well on the voters. Politicians do what they think the voters will like.

    I found the quote from Friedman that I had in mind.

    Those of us who have been fortunate enough to be born in the United States in the twentieth century naturally take freedom for granted: it seems to us that a relatively free society is the natural state of mankind. But that is a great misconception. Freedom is very far from being the natural state of mankind; on the contrary, it is an extraordinarily unusual situation. If one looks back through history, in any place on the globe, one finds that the natural state of mankind in most periods in history has been tyranny and misery. If one looks over the globe geographically at any point in time, one finds that most of the people in the world were living in a state of tyranny and misery.

    https://www.hoover.org/research/fragility-freedom

    This is why I don’t think we can afford to play with fire, as was done on January 6th.

    norcal (862cdb)

  71. I did not say you were an asshat, which would have violated the commenting rules. I said that your planned future action would be that of an asshat.

    Pretty sure the mods know the difference.

    Nevertheless, let’s avoid that word altogether, lest it be placed into the list of words which kick a comment straight into moderation.

    JVW (15c733)

  72. @Dana I think Jill Biden’s dress was lovely. I didn’t not like Mrs. Macron’s very much. The color wasn’t good on her and it did not drape well.

    Nic (896fdf)

  73. Trump is likely nominee as poling is no longer accurate. 2016/2022 examples of inaccurate polling. In 2020 polling did not predict democrat losses in the house only bidens win. Trump hates the same people populist voters hate and want to get even with them too! Desatan will end up like cancun turd cruz and the other dwarfs. Please clap! Even in this anti-trump poll he is at 70%! Trumpsters are passionate supporters and will get out and vote. Desatan is the default position for lack of anything better of undecided republicans who are unsure they want trump. Clinton fatigue didn’t stop her from getting 2026 nomination and wont stop trump either.

    asset (bc55df)

  74. Heh! Walker, Texas Resident.

    What’s in your carpetbag?

    nk (2ff6ab)

  75. Why did trump win barely in 2016 He ran as a southern democrat not a republican. In 2000 dubya ran as a compassionate conservatie and barely won. Desatan will be another romney/dole with the same result. Democrats will point out the history of the evil devil that he is.

    asset (bc55df)

  76. It has been obvious to me, even before January 6, that as prelude to and in accordance with his goal of one world government, globalist Trump wants to abolish Federalism, State sovereignty, States’ rights, and the concept of State citizenship.

    nk (2ff6ab)

  77. We almost had a constitutional crisis with Trump trying to scare Pence into throwing out the election results

    Had that happened, it would have ended the same way, except that Trump, Pence and a few others would literally hang for treason. There would be no choice.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  78. Those policies are lasting… see ObamaCare.

    Any entitlement fix that isn’t just a trim will end with Medicare, Obamacare and Medicaid all merging into something that looks a lot like Obamacare or Medicare Advantage. The protection against terribleness will be 1) private companies delivering the services and 2) widespread participation so you don’t get the “I’m All Right, Jack!” that allowed 95% of the people to ignore what Obamacare did to 5%.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  79. Bad policies can be voted out at the next election

    When I ws young, I thought that Social Security was a terrible idea, and I would ahve voted it out. But wqe couldn’t because all those oldsters had their entire retirement plans wrapped around it. Now that I’m ON Social Security — after paying several hundred thousand dollars into it over the years and getting no interest — I kind of see why it is so hard to undo.

    A lot of government is like that. Republicans may hate some of these programs, but when they get back in the best they can do is to try to make them run efficiently, and sand off the burrs.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  80. Heh! Walker, Texas Resident.

    Now, see here is the difference. Walker is not Trump. Senator Walker cannot do things unilaterally. He has 49 other GOP Senators to keep him off the ledge. I could vote for him, on the most general policy grounds, even though I thought he was a complete ignoramus and opportunist. Hell, I could even tolerate a Senator Donald Trump.

    But I would not want either of them in the WH. Character is amplified there.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  81. the concept of State citizenship

    Except for taxation purposes, that mostly died in 1865. California is trying to claim the power to tax escapees, but it can only go so far.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  82. This is so clearly the right answer that i’ve basically concluded that most of the Republican party are simply fine with tyranny as long as they get to be the tyrants

    Perhaps. But Democrats have made their preference for tyranny clear for some time now. Just different issues. You may be confusing some of these tyrannical acts with “seeking justice” but that’s always the way, isn’t it?

    Darth Vader wanted to stamp out slavery.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  83. But tell me, JF, why you think that a man with the attributes listed above is a good choice to be president? Or do you deny the description? If so, tell me what your evidence is for a calm, collected, steely-eyed President Trump.
    My guess is that you don’t dispute it, but you just wanted him to go postal on the people you hate.
    Kevin M (1ea396) — 12/2/2022 @ 2:07 pm

    Looks like you forgot what your original question was, but fortunately this a blog comment section where you can read and review it up thread. No joke, give it a whirl.

    Now you want to make it exclusively about Trump, when my point was that it’s not exclusively about Trump. It’s about all the candidates who are not sufficiently “non-Trump”, who will get credit for being “not-Trump” until the day Trump drops out or is tossed out. After which, we’ll see 180 degree turns from a whole lot of asshats.

    JF (abf6e6)

  84. Is there going to be a post on the Twitter Files

    https://twitter.com/mtaibbi/status/1598822959866683394?s=46&t=MPmDtu1hJj9ECiXut7jrUQ

    or is it going to go the way of the FTX-DNC money laundering story?

    Obudman (33e616)

  85. This is an open thread. You put up the post.

    nk (708509)

  86. Ftx and the graft and fraud using Ukraine to funnel funds to the Dems isn’t interesting. Neither is the fascism that led to the government left fusing with oligopolies in social media to ban discussions of Biden’s graft.

    Can’t have people knowing the truth. They might vote the wrong way.

    NJRob (47b6eb)

  87. @57 they would all have lost michigan, pennsylvania and wisconsin to clinton because they are not anti-free trade populists and some are pro-immigration. 7 republicans voted for paid leave for railway workers trying to get workers to come over to republican side. Looks like some republicans understand the future of their party.

    asset (bc55df)

  88. It’s about all the candidates who are not sufficiently “non-Trump”, who will get credit for being “not-Trump”

    No, it’s about candidates that either toady to Trump or are propelled by his minions. The folks that Trump got nominated for the Senate were lousy candidates. But to Trump their main quality was that they kissed the ring, if not something lower.

    And if they go off the reservation and start to move away, Trump is quite capable of telling his followers to stay home. As he did in 2020 in GA, AZ, MI and a few other states. Because to Trump, it’s all about followers. Nothing else means diddly.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  89. Hunter Biden laptop bombshell: Twitter invented reason to censor NY Post’s reporting

    https://nypost.com/2022/12/02/elon-musk-releases-twitters-files-on-censorship-of-post/

    DCSCA (b6ae0d)

  90. The Twitter link from Matt Taibbi exposes some very high level orders to suppress the Hunter Biden laptop story in the weeks before the 2020 election. It got to the point where the information was blocked in person-to-person messaging, something usually only done for kiddie porn.

    They also demonstrate a strict “anti-hacking” policy that usually ignored. The potential that the laptop might have been hacked — without any evidence — is used for shutting down all mention of the story on Twitter.

    And these are the guys that Iranian and Chinese protesters want to trust.

    The whole thing is well worth reading, although I think it would get more viewing in another format. But maybe they’re trying to get those clicks.

    And the end take by the Democrats in Congress? Twitter doesn’t block enough stuff and government may need to step in.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  91. By the way, this is not “Why Trump Lost.”

    Both Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump lost their elections by such narrow margins that either of them could have won by making fewer mistakes.

    Hillary campaigned in states she had locked up (e.g. CA) and not PA, MI, WI, FL, etc, where she lost narrowly. She racked up useless popular votes but lost the real contest. Not collapsing on camera would have helped, too.

    Trump told his followers not to vote in advance, giving Biden 30 days of GotV to his one. That, in itself, cost him every state he lost by less than one percent. Not showing up to the first debate like a barroom drunk might have helped, too.

    Sure there were unfair media and internet biases. Some people really hated Trump. But he had it within his hands to win the election nevertheless.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  92. @91 I have pointed out the demonstrable reason both clinton lost in 2016 and trump in 2020. In 2016 trump wins wisconsin by 22,000 with green party on ballot jill stien taking 32,000 votes from clinton. Same michigan and pa. 2020 Democrats using ballot access laws put in place to keep libertarian party off ballot by republicans use law to keep green party off ballot. Trump loses wisconsin by 20,000 votes with green party not on ballot same AZ. and GA. Trump loses by combined 43,000 votes. Biden’s 81 million votes meaningless. How many times do I have to demonstrate these facts?

    asset (bc55df)

  93. There were two cartoons in Politico’s weekly collection that I especially liked, Garrincha’s FIFA, and Ramirez’s invitation.

    (FIFA chooses World Cup locations by a secret ballot. I learned recently that three of the voters have been indicted for corruption by the US, three others are known to have received bribes, and that one other came from a nation that got a special deal on LNG from Qatar.

    Fun fact: Not having enough actual fans, Qatar imported some to cheer for its losing team.)

    Jim Miller (f29931)

  94. At the first debate with Biden, Trump had COVID but did not tell Biden, or the organizers. I saw only a few minutes of it (and don’t plan to dig up the whole thing), but in those minutes it looked to me as if Trump was making a point of talking at Biden — as if he wanted to infect his opponent.

    Trump doesn’t know much, but he does know where the cameras are.

    Jim Miller (f29931)

  95. Two questions I have about Kari Lake, the defeated candidate for Arizona governor:

    First, can anyone explain this transition? “Prior to 2015 she identified as a Buddhist,[103] but converted to Christianity in 2019.” (She was born in 1969, so she wasn’t an adolescent at the time.)

    Second, can anyone explain what she is saying with that hairdo?

    Jim Miller (f29931)

  96. Second, can anyone explain what she is saying with that hairdo?
    Jim Miller (f29931) — 12/3/2022 @ 5:39 am

    as usual, you’re focused on the important stuff

    what is she saying? i dunno, but maybe her hairdo can have a conversation with biden’s hair plugs

    JF (d6140e)

  97. Anyone who accepts Jesus Christ as their savior understands the truth.

    Why do you have a problem with that Jim?

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  98. Second, can anyone explain what she is saying with that hairdo?

    That she is not bald.

    nk (708509)

  99. (FIFA chooses World Cup locations by a secret ballot. I learned recently that three of the voters have been indicted for corruption by the US, three others are known to have received bribes, and that one other came from a nation that got a special deal on LNG from Qatar.

    Huh, not unlike what happened with the Salt Lake OC when it got the Winter Olympics for Utah. Not to mention sweeping the sexual abuse of its womens’ gymnastics team under the rug.

    Maybe it’s time to acknowledge the massive corruption that’s become an inherent part of international athletic competitions, and either scale them back or get rid of them entirely.

    First, can anyone explain this transition? “Prior to 2015 she identified as a Buddhist,[103] but converted to Christianity in 2019.” (She was born in 1969, so she wasn’t an adolescent at the time.)

    Second, can anyone explain what she is saying with that hairdo?

    Jim Miller (f29931) — 12/3/2022 @ 5:39 am

    I guess it’s been so long since Jim’s actually been out of the house to due to COVID anxiety that he doesn’t consider that women will often cut their hair shorter to make it easier to manage, particularly in middle age, or that pixie cuts aren’t exactly a recent hairstyle fashion. One does wonder why he’s so fixated on physical superficialities like a middle-school girl, but perhaps being around some real, actual women would resolve that.

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d)

  100. The Twitter link from Matt Taibbi exposes some very high level orders to suppress the Hunter Biden laptop story in the weeks before the 2020 election. It got to the point where the information was blocked in person-to-person messaging, something usually only done for kiddie porn.

    Funny how they had been so laser-focused on banning “disinformation,” suspending conservative-leaning accounts, and basically serving as a de facto social media clearinghouse for the DNC, but actually let the latter go largely unchecked until they were called out on it last year, and even then they mostly let it go all the way up through Musk’s purchase.

    Anyway, what Taibbi posted last night isn’t any surprise to those of us who said this exact type of collaboration was going on while being labeled “conspiracy theorists” by the usual suspects. It simply demonstrates that the Tech Trust, mass media, and DNC are largely working together, and that anything they put out should automatically be distrusted until actually proven otherwise.

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d)

  101. The bit between Vijaya Gadde and Ro Khanna about the 1st Amendment implications was particularly interesting, even if it’s just confirmation that Gadde and her team didn’t give a rip about the implications of what they were doing.

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d)

  102. Gadde and Khanna, both children of immigrants, one came to absorb American values the other to tear them down

    JF (d6140e)

  103. Margaret Thatcher once said: “I always cheer up immensely if an attack is particularly wounding because I think, well, if they attack one personally, it means they have not a single political argument left.”

    I wouldn’t say that’s true 100 percent of the time, but I am sure it is true more often than not.

    (Those interested in learning to make rational arguments might want to study Thinking, Fast and Slow.)

    Jim Miller (f29931)

  104. Jim Miller (f29931) — 12/3/2022 @ 8:46 am

    is that what Thatcher’s hairdo said to you, Jim Miller?

    JF (d6140e)

  105. Two questions I have about Kari Lake, the defeated candidate for Arizona governor:

    First, can anyone explain this transition? “Prior to 2015 she identified as a Buddhist,[103] but converted to Christianity in 2019.” (She was born in 1969, so she wasn’t an adolescent at the time.)

    Second, can anyone explain what she is saying with that hairdo?

    She’s an idiot but given her 22 years of experience as a public figure/news anchor, she’s savvy to the social and cultural climate around her. She knew if she moved into politics and had any hope of winning a future election in Arizona, being a Buddhist wasn’t going to cut it.

    As for her hair, while I don’t usually like short hair, her cut looks smart and frames her face nicely. She clearly learned a lot from being on television with regard to using the correct make up and donning a flattering hair style . No big hair for her, which would risk being a distraction and look unprofessional or too sexy. Instead, a practical but stylish bob with soft makeup, resulting in a still-feminine appearance.

    Dana (1225fc)

  106. It’s Ying and Yang. At that time, the New York Post was 100% the tank for Trump and Twitter was against him. Now, the New York Post has turned against him and Elon Musk is trying to attract his Truth Social membership. Balance in the Farce.

    In the non-fever dream world, some asshole stole private information from a customer’s computer and peddled it far and wide. Some snapped it up, and some decided they wouldn’t touch it with a ten-foot pole.

    nk (708509)

  107. And like clockwork, your point at 103 is yet again proven, Jim Miller.

    Dana (1225fc)

  108. I don’t twitter, so it’s difficult me to get too excited about what information is or is not being suppressed there. It’s rarely careful, meticulous, balanced journalism. It’s a lot of gotcha, misinformation or distorted information, and a fair amount of comedic failures. If it implodes, it’s probably a step in the right direction.

    Does flogging the Hunter Biden story on twitter change the facts of any case under investigation by the DoJ or US attorney? I kind of doubt it. It gives the impression that if only one shouts loud enough, one can get his way. Most persuadable people care about bread and butter issues, not political grudges and ideological hatchet jobs. The GOP should have had a tsunami last month but forwarded too many defective candidates in key races. Should the response be to continue to play to the base or maybe try something new?

    Counting special elections and off-year elections, the GOP is 0-6 since 2016 against expectations. Ay what point do we once again choose normal? At what point do we stop listening to losers?

    AJ_Liberty (6a18fd)

  109. and, like clockwork, an attack on a woman cuz of her hairdo is considered a rational argument cuz Trump

    JF (d6140e)

  110. Has Herschel Walker decided he doesn’t want to be a senator?

    Herschel Walker was being swamped by negative television ads. His Democratic opponents were preparing to flood the polls for early voting as soon as doors opened. After being hit by fresh allegations of carpetbagging, he was left with just over a week to make his final appeals to voters in the runoff for Georgia’s Senate seat.

    But for five days, Mr. Walker was off the campaign trail.

    The decision to skip campaigning over the crucial Thanksgiving holiday weekend has Mr. Walker’s Republican allies airing frustrations and concerns about his campaign strategy in the final stretch of the overtime election against Senator Raphael Warnock.

    Sure looks like it — and he has been learning, as others have before him, that “politics ain’t beanball”>

    Jim Miller (f29931)

  111. It’s Ying and Yang. At that time, the New York Post was 100% the tank for Trump and Twitter was against him.

    publisher, platform — hey, what’s the difference, eh nk?

    JF (d6140e)

  112. In the non-fever dream world, some asshole stole private information from a customer’s computer and peddled it far and wide. Some snapped it up, and some decided they wouldn’t touch it with a ten-foot pole.
    nk (708509) — 12/3/2022 @ 9:14 am

    now do trump’s tax returns leaked to NYT, and the steele dossier

    yeah, you won’t

    and if by stolen you mean hand delivered to the recipient and abandoned, you’re spot on

    JF (d6140e)

  113. “She clearly learned a lot from being on television with regard to using the correct make up and donning a flattering hair style .”

    Looks are a big plus for her….and she has real retail-politics skills. She just went with the big lie instead of playing it straight. It was an epic failure in a close race. Election integrity must be played very carefully because it can come across as anti-democratic, especially with regards to serially not accepting election results. In the end, the GOP must give voters more of a reason to vote for them and stop being so whiney….it’s not a good look….

    AJ_Liberty (6a18fd)

  114. And like clockwork, your point at 103 is yet again proven, Jim Miller.

    Dana (1225fc) — 12/3/2022 @ 9:16 am

    You mean when Jim commented on her religious beliefs and her hairdo? Yeah, I’d say his point was proven, and the best part was the self-owning nature of it.

    Factory Working Orphan (d458cb)

  115. You could have just written “Macron is frightened” and left it at that.

    steveg (367163)

  116. Really good summary of the recent Twitter / Hunter Biden information suppression discussion https://twitter.com/prchovanec/status/1599070152322338816?s=46&t=pqBcbXg63HaHJfsvrzA5aw

    My thoughts
    1. Private citizens lobbying for speech they prefer is ok.
    2. Private parties can do what they like with their property in most cases and shouldn’t be compelled to make speech they disagree with.
    3. Banning the post story was dumb.
    4. Taking down revenge porn of Hunter is good. It’s a good policy in general even if he’s not very sympathetic.
    5. I think twitters mod policy generated more attention then leaving the laptop story up.

    Time123 (1d6674)

  117. Elon buying Twitter has been really entertaining, even if it’s more a opportunity to laugh at him and the rubes who paid 8$ for flair then anything else.

    But I don’t think Twitter matters so that’s easy for me to say.

    Time123 (1d6674)

  118. and if by stolen you mean hand delivered to the recipient and abandoned, you’re spot on

    Yeah, who told that girl in the upskirt photo to wear a thong on the subway stairs?

    Techies, that would be Twitter, might adhere to a different code of conduct regarding electronic data than tabloids and partisans.

    And if I really cared, I might ask was the laptop “abandoned” when Tam o’Shanter “backed up” the hard drive? And who sits there and reads what’s being “backed up” as it is being backed up? The whole story smelled.

    nk (404ff3)

  119. From what I read, the computer “fixer upper guy” puts a mechanics lien on the paperwork he has people sign before he cleans up all the viruses people like Hunter get on their computers. Computer belongs to the mechanic if it isn’t paid and claimed after a certain period of time.
    Since Hunter is into porn, I assume that the fixer upper had to clean up the mess. One of the ways modern day pedophiles get caught is that they send computers (or in the old days, film) and some in the tech community feel they have an obligation to wade into the cesspool and maybe find- oh I dunno- maybe photos and videos of Hunter with his underage niece?
    I think a mechanics lien would give the tech the rights to wipe and sell the computer, but also would give the tech rights to do what he/she chooses with the contents.

    The only person to blame here is Hunter, plus he’s dumb as a rock and exceeds Trump level irresponsible. My guess? He wanted his viruses removed, he wanted to keep emails and texts, but he also wanted to keep his precious porn stash of his personal videos. Got stoned for several months, bouncing around, impregnating a stripper -you, know, the usual- and forgot what the hell he did with his computer. Drug addicts routinely wake up with nothing but unfamiliar underwear on a lucky day. The rich ones who can manage travel, wake up in cities and places that are completely mysterious with nothing. The really lucky have a Secret Service detail that conflates enabling with protection.

    People like to blame the nobody computer tech, but this is all Hunters fault. In the race to the bottom between dud sons Joe Biden’s Hunter beat Trump’s Donald Jr to the bottom by the distance from gate to bottom. I do think so far the phalanx formation that has been put around Hunter during this Chauncy the Gardneresque Presidency has been successful. He hasn’t been in the news for grifting, attempting to impregnate the zoo animals, matching blow for blow with legendary addicts which is a big win for the USA I guess

    steveg (367163)

  120. In the non-fever dream world, some asshole stole private information from a customer’s computer and peddled it far and wide. Some snapped it up, and some decided they wouldn’t touch it with a ten-foot pole.

    nk (708509) — 12/3/2022 @ 9:14 am

    In the non-fever dream world, the current President’s crackhead son dropped off a laptop completely forgot he dropped it off because he’s a crackhead, which constitutes abandonment under normal service operations, over a year later the stuff that was on the laptop came to light, and the DNC and Twitter staff colluded to suppress the story when the NY Post broke it.

    Factory Working Orphan (de145a)

  121. Yeah, who told that girl in the upskirt photo to wear a thong on the subway stairs?

    Techies, that would be Twitter, might adhere to a different code of conduct regarding electronic data than tabloids and partisans.

    This is nuclear-level cope and deflection, particularly when the suppression was done for entirely political purposes itself, while the glow-in-the-datks lied that it was “Russian disinformation. (elegant proof that nothing coming out of the Intel community should be taken at face value, either).

    Factory Working Orphan (de145a)

  122. Elon buying Twitter has been really entertaining, even if it’s more a opportunity to laugh at him and the rubes who paid 8$ for flair then anything else.

    $8 is a pittance compared to the rubes who paid $15k for their internet sticker, and the best part has been watching the left seethe over losing control of their social media safe space.

    Factory Working Orphan (de145a)

  123. 4. Taking down revenge porn of Hunter is good. It’s a good policy in general even if he’s not very sympathetic.

    I’ve noticed this talking point flooding out of the NPC community since last night after their software update was installed. Like everything the left says, it’s a false narrative designed to reframe the story from the more nefarious material that was on the laptop, and it’s particularly telling that the Twitter commissars were johnny on the spot to ban that while letting child porn go largely unchecked.

    Either way, Twatter looks bad and their apologists look desperate, which is ultimately a win for me.

    Factory Working Orphan (de145a)

  124. @122 the overheated reactions from lefties has been hilarious. It’s nice when all the garbage ppl on the right and the left decide to put on a clown show at the same time.

    Time123 (b15838)

  125. “ultimately a win for me.”

    I’m so happy I’m going to make 4 angry posts in a row.

    Davethulhu (02f479)

  126. FWO, are you aware that some of what the Biden campaign was asking be taken down were pornographic pictures of HB?

    Do you have a problem with that request or with Twitter doing it?

    Time123 (b15838)

  127. I’m so happy I’m going to make 4 angry posts in a row.

    Davethulhu (02f479) — 12/3/2022 @ 11:00 am

    Leftists typically interpret strong language as anger, due to their own inherent misery.

    Factory Working Orphan (de145a)

  128. FWO, are you aware that some of what the Biden campaign was asking be taken down were pornographic pictures of HB?

    Do you have a problem with that request or with Twitter doing it?

    Time123 (b15838) — 12/3/2022 @ 11:00 am

    I have a problem with Twatter working hand in hand with the DNC to suppress a story that was damaging to their party, and tolerating child porn.

    Factory Working Orphan (de145a)

  129. Dave, I think FWO is happy. He’s watched the ppl in charge of institutions he values willingly change those institutions into things he hates for years. From his POV they’ve been destroyed. It makes perfect sense to me that he’d enjoy seeing something that’s valued by his political opponents changed in a way they hate.

    Musk bought it fair and square and he’s free to use it as he likes. I recently saw a lefty account melting down that prominent Neo-Nazi Andrew Anglin had his account restored. I’m not trying to say FWO wants to see Neo-Nazi succeed. I don’t for a minute think he does. But I do think he views the left’s unhappiness here as somewhat karmic.

    Time123 (b15838)

  130. Musk lost half of Twitter’s goodwill* when he bought it and now he’s trying to keep it in the public’s attention while he rebuilds it.

    *the established reputation of a business regarded as a quantifiable asset, e.g., as represented by the excess of the price paid at a takeover for a company over its fair market value.

    nk (404ff3)

  131. And here it is, as I always suspected would eventually come: trump is now saying, on truth social, that what happened in 2020 justifies terminating the constitution.

    https://truthsocial.com/@realDonaldTrump/posts/109449803240069864

    What say you, trump supporters? Are you on board with this?

    aphrael (b13d71)

  132. I have pointed out the demonstrable reason both clinton lost in 2016 and trump in 2020

    And you will do it again. Sadly, it’s not the “real reason” as there IS no real reason. And both candidates had it within their control to reduce their mistakes enough to overcome the outside forces.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  133. In the non-fever dream world, some asshole stole private information from a customer’s computer and peddled it far and wide. Some snapped it up, and some decided they wouldn’t touch it with a ten-foot pole.

    ANd, no doubt the same people would do the same things with Don Jr’s laptop. Because integrity!

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  134. IANAL, but I don’t think putting a lien on a computer gives someone the right to the data on it. If there had been classified info on it and he had published it, it would’ve been a problem. If a tech gets data and uses it to blackmail the owner, it’s a problem. If someone had put a schematic for a patented machine and the tech had put up the schematic on line, it would’ve been a problem. If someone was writing a book and the tech had published it under his own name, it would’ve been a problem. I think it would’ve given him the right to wipe the drive and either take the laptop apart to use the parts or refurbish and re-sell, but owning the computer and owning the data are two different things.

    Nic (896fdf)

  135. ‘President Biden, heeding President Macron’s push for negotiations with Russia, said that he is open to talking to President Vladimir Putin with conditions:

    …he would talk to President Vladimir V. Putin, but only in consultation with NATO allies and only if the Russian leader indicated he was “looking for a way to end the war.”

    Mr. Biden’s public expression of conditioned willingness to reach out to Mr. Putin gratified French officials and provided unexpected support for President Emmanuel Macron’s outreach. Mr. Biden noted that Mr. Putin had shown no interest yet in ending his invasion, but said that if that changed, “I’ll be happy to sit down with Putin to see what he has in mind.”’

    Huh?

    The United States is not at war w/Russia. Nor is Russia at war with any NATO alliance signatories. When was the assignment of peace negotiator slipped into Joey’s portfolio? Or was it into his Ovaltine? The POTUS was not elected President of the World- and America is not Planet Earth’s policeman.

    But hey, if you wanna play at peacemaker, hop to it, Fireman Joe! Let’s go, Brandon!! The following is a list of ongoing armed conflict in the world from 2003 to date just burning to be extinguished…

    War in Darfur; South Thailand insurgency; Insurgency in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa; Iran–PJAK conflict; Conflict in the Niger Delta; Kivu conflict; Sistan and Baluchestan insurgency; Insurgency in Paraguay; Fatah–Hamas conflict; Bakassi conflict; Mexican drug war; Militias-Comando Vermelho conflict; Operation Juniper Shield; Somali Civil War (2009–present); Sudanese nomadic conflicts; Boko Haram insurgency; South Yemen insurgency; Sinai insurgency; Shia insurgency in Bahrain; Syrian civil war; Sudanese conflict in South Kordofan and Blue Nile; Ethnic violence in South Sudan (2011–present); Mali War; Central African Republic Civil War; War against the Islamic State; Yemeni Civil War (2014–present); Islamic State insurgency in Tunisia; Kurdish–Turkish conflict (2015–present); 2016 Niger Delta conflict; Conflict in Rakhine State; Insurgency in Northern Chad; Anglophone Crisis; Insurgency in Cabo Delgado; Islamic State insurgency in Iraq (2017–present); Catatumbo campaign; 2019–2022 Persian Gulf crisis [Part of the Iran–Saudi Arabia proxy conflict, the Iran–Israel proxy conflict, and the Persian Gulf conflicts]; 2020–2022 Western Saharan clashes; 2020–2022 Ethiopian–Sudanese clashes; Insurgency in Southeastern Nigeria; 2021–2022 Myanmar civil war; 2021–2022 Armenia–Azerbaijan border crisis…

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars:_2003%E2%80%93present

    Oh- and Squinty… then maybe get around to formally ending the Korean War after lunch.

    “A copper. A copper!!” – Cody Jarrett [James Cagney] ‘White Heat’ 1949

    DCSCA (bfc79a)

  136. What say you, trump supporters? Are you on board with this?

    aphrael (b13d71) — 12/3/2022 @ 11:31 am

    Looking forward to you joining the rest of us in supporting DeSantis for president in 2024 to clean up the mess in DC.

    That’s what you mean, right?

    NJRob (cd1d1b)

  137. Time123 (1d6674) — 12/3/2022 @ 10:29 am

    Nonsense.

    JUST like the baker and the wedding, a communication service that is open to the public must transmit all legal communication. That it, or some of its employees, disagree with the message is immaterial.

    Or is a gay wedding higher in the Rights spectrum that political speech?

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  138. Prediction: Twitter will be an important factor in the 2024 campaign.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  139. NJRob, answer the question, please. Are you on board with terminating the constitution? If not, is a politician advocating that automatically going to lose your support?

    aphrael (b13d71)

  140. Techies, that would be Twitter, might adhere to a different code of conduct regarding electronic data than tabloids and partisans.

    Uh, no, they don’t. In fact they are the worst about it. Every coder I’ve ever met has every line of code they ever wrote backed up somewhere, even though nearly all of it is proprietary and owned by others. Most can recreate the entire project, including the code from others. The only thing that ever stops this are corporate of government data security measures. But they have to be good ones.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  141. Musk lost half of Twitter’s goodwill* when he bought it and now he’s trying to keep it in the public’s attention while he rebuilds it.

    Indeed. But he also lost most of Twitter’s badwill.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  142. IANAL, but I don’t think putting a lien on a computer gives someone the right to the data on it.

    Depends on what the agreement says. If I was writing the lien wording, it would be as encompassing as possible. Pretty sure a an actual lawyer would do the same thing. Only if there is an actual law preventing that would it say differently.

    As someone has pointed out, this is a typical way that kiddie porn is discovered and the data on the computer is admissible.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  143. KevinM

    If it is a public utility, definitely.

    Newspapers were under no obligation to transmit all communication. (letters to editor, classifieds, op-eds,)

    I also understand what you are saying and will say I think the baker and the wedding cake stuff was a giant step out onto an icy 3-1 slope

    steveg (367163)

  144. What say you, trump supporters? Are you on board with this?
    aphrael (b13d71) — 12/3/2022 @ 11:31 am

    nothing gets lefties worked up more than when the right co-opts their ideas

    JF (5a9f0d)

  145. Are you on board with terminating the constitution? If not, is a politician advocating that automatically going to lose your support?

    aphrael (b13d71) — 12/3/2022 @ 11:57 am

    I answered the question. You didn’t.

    If you support leftism you support overthrowing the Constitution since it was written by white men. That’s what they support currently.

    NJRob (cd1d1b)

  146. Trump, today:

    So, with the revelation of MASSIVE & WIDESPREAD FRAUD & DECEPTION in working closely with Big Tech Companies, the DNC, & the Democrat Party, do you throw the Presidential Election Results of 2020 OUT and declare the RIGHTFUL WINNER, or do you have a NEW ELECTION? A Massive Fraud of this type and magnitude allows for the termination of all rules, regulations, and articles, even those found in the Constitution. Our great “Founders” did not want, and would not condone, False & Fraudulent Elections!

    1) as I said in #91:

    Trump told his followers not to vote in advance, giving Biden 30 days of GotV to his one. That, in itself, cost him every state he lost by less than one percent. Not showing up to the first debate like a barroom drunk might have helped, too.

    Sure there were unfair media and internet biases. Some people really hated Trump. But he had it within his hands to win the election nevertheless.

    2) Several of the Founders practiced rigged elections. Elbridge Gerry, for one.

    3) The entire Electoral College plan was to firewall fraud and prevent ballot box stuffing from affecting results. If a state was run by one party, they were going to win the electoral votes anyway, so there was nothing to be gained by padding the count since the “popular vote” was meaningless.

    4) This is sedition, pure and simple, advocating the overthrow of the Constitution. If a group starts advocating this, it is seditious conspiracy.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  147. Can you show me where you answered my question? All I see is a snarky remark about me voting for desantis.

    And you are still deflecting.

    Trump is openly calling for the termination of the constitution. Does he still have your support?

    aphrael (b13d71)

  148. @kevin@142 But kiddie porn is in and of itself illegal and it gets turned in to the police (IDK if the tech would then tell everyone that he found kiddie porn on a local banker’s laptop). If the tech had found meth hidden in the DVR, I would say it would be entirely appropriate for the tech to give that to the police. OTOH, I don’t love gossip, so it might be that my general discomfort for gossip that makes me feel like you shouldn’t necessarily talk about stuff you find out as part of your professional duties, which, obv. is a personal thing and shouldn’t apply to anyone else or this situation.

    Nic (896fdf)

  149. The fact that the Electoral College was put into the Constitution shows that the Founders were quite aware of the proclivities of their class, and figured out a way to stymie people like themselves. This comes up over and over in the debates and the document itself — this was a collection of political scoundrels setting up a system to neutralize the behavior of people like themselves.

    The Founders are to be respected for their political acumen and the solid structure they devised. But they were not all nice people. Quite a few kept slaves. Most were wealthy in a time when most were poor. A number had questionable businesses. John Hancock traded slaves.

    This does not mean that the Constitution was flawed. On the contrary: Set a thief to catch a thief.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  150. Newspapers were under no obligation to transmit all communication. (letters to editor, classifieds, op-eds,)

    This is merely due to the limitations of space. Twitter has no such limitations (other than 280 characters per tweet). Further, since Twitter is protected from liability for the communication of its customers, they are again different from the traditional newspaper.

    Online newspapers do not sell themselves as a public communications medium. Facebook, Twitter and numerous open forums do. It’s the sign they put up for the public that differentiates them.

    Sure there are user agreements, but does anyone want to argue that the baker could have a user agreement banning use of their cakes at same-sex weddings?

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  151. nothing gets lefties worked up more than when the right co-opts their ideas

    JF has a point here.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  152. Nic, it is alleged that the content of that laptop included discussions of illegal financial activities, such as tax evasion, influence peddling, and unregistered activity as agent of a foreign government. All of these are felonies. There was also sexual content. Unknown the ages of the individuals pictured.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  153. RIP Hall of Famer and two-time Cy Young winner (the first to win one in each league) Gaylord Perry (84).

    Rip Murdock (3c89fe)

  154. JF, Kevin m: are either of you intending to imply that terminating the constitution is my idea?

    I ask because the phrasing of jfs tweet *strongly* implies that.

    aphrael (b13d71)

  155. “a communication service that is open to the public must transmit all legal communication”

    * When you compose a tweet, is it twitter or the internet infrastructure that carries the message to subscribers? I would argue the latter. So just like a newspaper has an address and you have an address, the newspaper is not a common carrier, whereas the post office or railway are common carriers.

    * Does twitter sell bandwidth for messaging or does twitter sell advertising access? Again, it’s the latter. And there ability to attract advertising does require them to do some content moderation. We can argue about the extent of that moderation, but really not the necessity of doing some to remain economically viable. Ma Bell had to carry all phone calls because Ma Bell’s business model did not require her to attract advertisers to ride along on a call. There was no reputational damage if Ma Bell carried lewd, pornographic, or untrue conversations.

    * Does twitter’s size or market dominance put them in a different perspective. Well, let’s look for other big consequential internet sites. What about Wikipedia? Should Wikipedia be compelled to carry all third party content? I kinda think no. Well what about Twitter having monopoly status? But does it? Doesn’t it compete with Facebook and Google’s You-tube for internet advertising? Google doesn’t sell search services….at least I’ve never got billed for using it. It sells digital advertising.

    I think you’ve fallen in love with Justice Thomas’ and Richard Epstein’s ruminations on the topic. I love them both, but I think their analogies are flawed.

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  156. aphrael (b13d71) — 12/3/2022 @ 12:54 pm

    it doesn’t imply that

    it implies that a single tweet gets you worked up, as opposed to a very long history of efforts to shred the constitution by the left

    JF (31a9da)

  157. …….does anyone want to argue that the baker could have a user agreement banning use of their cakes at same-sex weddings?

    Kevin M (1ea396) — 12/3/2022 @ 12:49 pm

    I’m not arguing in favor of such an agreements, but all sorts of service vendors, such as facility or audio video equipment rental, have their own contract boilerplates, such as facility or audio video equipment rental agreements. I’m sure caterers also have their own terms and conditions. It wouldn’t be unheard of for a baker to do the same, assuming they didn’t violate any state or federal law.

    Rip Murdock (3c89fe)

  158. Did you know that the Founders were deeply concerned about the possibility of treason by the President? Not only did they view Impeachment as an insufficient method of redress (the President might have fellow traitors in Congress), but a sizable minority wanted to disallow Pardons for Treason.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  159. Sorry for the repetition.

    Rip Murdock (3c89fe)

  160. I love them both, but I think their analogies are flawed.

    Or yours is. Any analogy with newspapers is flawed from the start as newspapers are not a communications medium at all, and in the printed form have definite space limitations.

    Twitter (and Facebook) sell themselves to the public as a place where you can communicate with others. That they sell advertising space is a separate matter — and without the former, the latter doesn’t happen. They do NOT say “Come see our ads, and btw you can also send tweets.” It is possible to communicate on Twitter and evade the ads.

    If the baker put a corporate logo on the side of each cake, allowing him discounting the cost of the cake, that does not mean that he is in business to promote corporate logos; he is still selling cakes to the public.

    What about Wikipedia? Should Wikipedia be compelled to carry all third party content?

    But Wikipedia is not about being a communications channel. It’s about providing vetted information. That it is open to editing by members of the public does not mean that erroneous information, lies, spam, etc will remain up. They never make any claim that such posts will remain up, and no one has few have any expectation that they will.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  161. Aphrael,

    Are you going to join me in supporting DeSantis or are you going to keep supporting leftists that complain that the Constitution only protects negative rights or is obsolete because it was written by white guys?

    NJRob (cd1d1b)

  162. “JUST like the baker and the wedding, a communication service that is open to the public must transmit all legal communication. That it, or some of its employees, disagree with the message is immaterial.”

    I’ve said this before, but twitter does not make money by being a communication service. It makes money selling eyeballs to advertisers. (well it used to make money this way). To operate successfully as a business, they need to keep their customers (companies purchasing ads) happy.

    Davethulhu (02f479)

  163. “Twitter (and Facebook) sell themselves to the public as a place where you can communicate with others. That they sell advertising space is a separate matter — and without the former, the latter doesn’t happen. They do NOT say “Come see our ads, and btw you can also send tweets.” It is possible to communicate on Twitter and evade the ads.”

    What they say is “come communicate with others limited by our terms of service”.

    Davethulhu (02f479)

  164. Bottom line: Do you expect a tweet to be vetted for truth? I sure don’t. Given that basic lack of expectation, Twitter’s claim that it must police *some* posts is baseless, and when they do it on a clearly partisan basis it is censorship, not housekeeping.

    Sure, advertisers probably don’t want to find their ads on the Nazi Channel, but this is not what we are talking about. The stuff they were blocking was legitimate political discourse, and advertisers might actually want the eyeballs attracted by such.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  165. What they say is “come communicate with others limited by our terms of service”.

    What they don’t say is “come communicate with others limited by our terms of service which we will apply mostly to your tweets, but not others.”

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  166. Questions:

    Could Congress pass a law outlawing viewpoint censorship in mass communications (based on membership counts) or at least denying libel protection to companies that engage in such?

    Could such a company decide to not censor, but somehow indicate that some content (e.g. legal porn, the Nazi Channel) required a confirmation before viewing, while separating out advertisers from those spaces should they desire?

    It is going to be very interesting to see the Left’s arguments about Musk’s Twitter come late 2024.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  167. Marquette Law School National Poll-12/1/22

    A new Marquette Law School Poll national survey finds Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis has pulled into a tie with President Joe Biden in a hypothetical 2024 matchup, with each receiving 42% support from registered voters nationwide. DeSantis has increased his support in polling since January, while Biden’s support has remained stable. Some 15% say they would prefer someone else or would not vote. ……..

    Biden continues to lead former President Donald Trump in a 2024 rematch with 44% to Trump’s 34%, while 23% say they prefer someone else or would not vote. …….

    Both Republicans and Democrats are divided over Trump or Biden as their party’s nominee in 2024. Among Republicans and independents who lean Republican (hereafter “Republicans”), 55% would like to see Trump run in 2024, while 45% said they would not like him to run. (Trump announced his candidacy for the 2024 Republican nomination on Nov. 15.) In the immediate previous national Marquette poll in September, 60% wanted Trump to run and 40% did not. …….

    Among registered voters who are Democrats or independents who lean Democratic (hereafter “Democrats”), 49% would like to see Biden run in 2024 and 51% would not. In September, 44% wanted him to run and 56% did not. This question had not been asked before September.
    ………
    Among Republican registered voters, Trump is seen favorably by 67% and unfavorably by 32%, with 1% failing to give an opinion. Trump’s recent high-water mark for favorability was in July when 76% had a favorable opinion and 22% an unfavorable opinion. ……
    Former Vice President Mike Pence is seen favorably by 51% of Republicans and unfavorably by 40%, with 9% failing to give an opinion. Pence’s favorable rating has declined and unfavorable increased since November 2021…….
    ………
    Survey respondents were asked if they favor or oppose each of 20 policy proposals drawn from recent Republican and Democratic congressional policy statements. The most popular issue is “limit the cost of prescription drugs,” favored by 92% of all adult respondents. This issue is the top choice among independents and Democrats and has the third highest support among Republicans. The least popular of the 20 proposals is “require Congress to reauthorize Social Security and Medicare every five years, rather than let the programs continue automatically,” favored by 32% and opposed by 68% among all respondents. This proposal ranks last among Republicans, is 4th from the bottom with Democrats, and 3rd from the bottom with independents.
    ……….
    ….. …. In addition to limiting prescription drug costs, “pass a new voting rights law to protect every citizen’s right to vote” ranks 7th with Republicans and 2nd with both Democrats and independents. Among the largest partisan divides is “pass a national law banning abortion after 15 weeks of pregnancy,” which ranks 8th with 69% support among Republicans, but 18th among Democrats (19% support) and 17th with independents (40% support.) “Impeach Joe Biden” is also sharply partisan, as the 9th ranked issue among Republicans but the bottom-ranked with Democrats and 19th of 20 with independents.
    ……….

    Rip Murdock (3c89fe)

  168. I’ve said this before, but twitter does not make money by being a communication service. It makes money selling eyeballs to advertisers. (well it used to make money this way). To operate successfully as a business, they need to keep their customers (companies purchasing ads) happy.

    And again, I don’t care what their business model is. That is not what they put on their website to attract the public. They do not say “We need to sell ads, and by signing up for this communications system and sending those tweets that we agree to let you send, you enhance our ability to make money off of ads.”

    If they said that, you’d be right. But what you are really arguing is they are committing fraud.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  169. “but twitter does not make money by being a communication service. It makes money selling eyeballs to advertisers”

    Kevin’s argument dismisses this….but it’s a key point.

    He’s also mixing two separate arguments: common carrier versus public accommodation. The Cake Baker is not a common carrier; he’s a public accommodation (perhaps debatable under nk’s opinion) that sells cakes….not advertising on cakes or advertising at his cakeshop. Colorado law said he could not discriminate on who he could sell a cake to (though he could obviously not be compelled to write anything he found objectionable on the cake).

    Now you could also argue that Twitter is a public accommodation. If memory recalls, Randy Barnett expressed some preliminary thoughts on that matter…and I generally like Randy as well. First, I think the law currently applies to physical businesses, so Congress would need to change that. Second, the 1964 CRA prohibits public accommodations from discriminating on the basis of race, color, religion, sex, or national origin. Political beliefs or associations are not a “protected class”. It would seem that Twitter has the power to favor some political speech over others based on current law.

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  170. And, even if they need to keep advertisers happy, their ability to block tweets means they have the alternate ability to limit the ads shown with those tweets. American Express might not want to have their ads shown with racist content (and members might ask Twitter to wall that off from them, too), but other advertisers (e.g. gun manufacturers, the Constitution Party) might not care, or even find it desirable.

    A better system would be to define certain categories of fringe interest and require people posting such tweets to mark them as such. Failure to do so could lead to a warning or ban and the reason would be much clearer than what happened before. Such indications would allow advertiser/user firewalls to work easily, yet allow much more free communications. Even Nazis have 1st Amendment rights, and failure to defend them is just another brick in the wall.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  171. I’ve said this before, but twitter does not make money by being a communication service. It makes money selling eyeballs to advertisers. (well it used to make money this way). To operate successfully as a business, they need to keep their customers (companies purchasing ads) happy.

    Davethulhu (02f479) — 12/3/2022 @ 1:17 pm

    Per Statista and Businessofapps, Twitter has only made money in 2 out of the last 11 years. It lost over $200 million just last year, before Musk even thought about buying it out–and that was an improvement on the $1 billion-plus it lost in 2020.

    So it doesn’t even meet the basic criteria of operating as a successful business, which is making more money than it spends. It’s survived primarily off of VC infusions and stock sales, not ad dollars. Like a lot of Silicon Valley operations, Twitter’s relative wealth is mostly smoke, and its perceived value has been distorted by its use by the Optimates as their personal bulletin board.

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d)

  172. American Express might not want to have their ads shown with racist content

    But they were fine having them shown with child porn?

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d)

  173. @132 Green party effect on 2016/2020 election is provable as I have demonstrated. Other possible reasons are mere supposition not provable demonstrations. If clinton had campaigned in wisconsin would she have won maybe maybe not supposition only. See if you can come up with something that is more then supposition and demonstratable.

    asset (85ab73)

  174. Colorado law said he could not discriminate on who he could sell a cake to (though he could obviously not be compelled to write anything he found objectionable on the cake)

    But did it way that he could not limit the end use, or the decoration on the cake based on that end use? That is the basic argument with the baker/cake/wedding thing, even if one particular baker had broader issues.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  175. “What they don’t say is “come communicate with others limited by our terms of service which we will apply mostly to your tweets, but not others.””

    Twitter decides what their terms of service applies to.

    “Could Congress pass a law outlawing viewpoint censorship in mass communications (based on membership counts) or at least denying libel protection to companies that engage in such?”

    Violates Compelled Speech doctrine.

    “Could such a company decide to not censor, but somehow indicate that some content (e.g. legal porn, the Nazi Channel) required a confirmation before viewing, while separating out advertisers from those spaces should they desire?”

    Unless they’re charging the pornographers and nazis to post, this seems unlikely.

    “It is going to be very interesting to see the Left’s arguments about Musk’s Twitter come late 2024.”

    I’m skeptical Twitter will exist in 2024.

    Davethulhu (02f479)

  176. But they were fine having them shown with child porn?

    Child porn is illegal. There are legal limitations on speech, such as you cannot call for the violent overthrow of the United States, you can be sued for libel, you cannot falsely yell FIRE! in a croweded theatre, etc.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  177. ‘thulhu, you are are just moving goalposts around. I’m done.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  178. Twitter decides what their terms of service applies to.

    What they do is fraud.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  179. “But they were fine having them shown with child porn?

    How often did you see child porn on Twitter?

    Davethulhu (02f479)

  180. When Twitter bans AOC for some outrageous tweet, the Left will come unglued and talk about Free Speech. And I’ll agree with them, while quietly enjoying the schadenfreude.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  181. Could such a company decide to not censor, but somehow indicate that some content (e.g. legal porn, the Nazi Channel) required a confirmation before viewing, while separating out advertisers from those spaces should they desire?

    It is going to be very interesting to see the Left’s arguments about Musk’s Twitter come late 2024.

    Kevin M (1ea396) — 12/3/2022 @ 1:32 pm

    Why would they feel the need to parse it like that, when they’ve clearly shown since Musk took over that they believe in employing censorship like a blunt instrument, and are simply angry that they think their side isn’t doing that on Twitter anymore?

    A lot of this could probably be solved by simply requiring social media to be classed as publishers rather than platforms, which removes their Section 230 protections, but also clears up the confusion over whether they’re allowed to engage in viewpoint censorship or not. Section 230 was implemented specifically because a lot of early Usenet boards in the 90s had devolved into hazmat sites for child porn postings by pedophiles, and something needed to be implemented from protecting hapless board owners and admins from being brought up on charges of distributing it. It wasn’t created for a Web 2.0 world where social media had turned quite rapidly into a de facto town square once Facebook went mainstream.

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d)

  182. How often did you see child porn on Twitter?

    Really. I don’t think it had any defenders. It was a quick account ban and the IP address went onto the special vetting list.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  183. “When Twitter bans AOC for some outrageous tweet, the Left will come unglued and talk about Free Speech. And I’ll agree with them, while quietly enjoying the schadenfreude.”

    Here’s the funny thing now. Before it was just a faceless committee that decided who was banned. Now it has a face: Elon Musk. If someone is banned (or not banned) it’s because Elon decided so.

    Davethulhu (02f479)

  184. Trumpster shoots boy campaigning for senator warnock in georgia. (du)

    asset (85ab73)

  185. How often did you see child porn on Twitter?

    Davethulhu (02f479) — 12/3/2022 @ 1:55 pm

    The Verge did a whole article on it in 2021, and it’s been a known issue on the platform for years. Twitter execs were initially trying to figure out how to monetize porn until they discovered how insidious the child porn problem was on it and how pathetic they’d been at clearing it out–whether due to sheer incompetence or because their own staff was stuffed with pedophiles who deliberately allowed it, the result was the same.

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d)

  186. “That is not what they put on their website to attract the public.”

    So your argument is that even though they make no income from providing access to posts, they should be treated as if they do because ignorant people don’t know any different? I’m of the opinion that if twitter does a poor job at promoting discussion/debate/conversation, then the market should reflect that. Change laws to provide competitors with greater access to the internet bowels. Promote technology options that can supplant Twitter. Otherwise it just seems like you’re saying that Twitter can’t have the business model that they want because there is no other place for people to get their message out. That seems a stretch.

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  187. Sorry, that article was this year, not last year. Here’s the key takeaway:

    “Twitter cannot accurately detect child sexual exploitation and non-consensual nudity at scale,” the Red Team concluded in April 2022. The company also lacked tools to verify that creators and consumers of adult content were of legal age, the team found. As a result, in May — weeks after Elon Musk agreed to purchase the company for $44 billion — the company delayed the project indefinitely. If Twitter couldn’t consistently remove child sexual exploitative content on the platform today, how would it even begin to monetize porn?

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d)

  188. A lot of this could probably be solved by simply requiring social media to be classed as publishers rather than platforms, which removes their Section 230 protections

    I don’t think you understand Section 230, which applies to “services” like The Washington Post and Patterico’s Pontifications and “Twitter” and not just “platforms.”

    subsection (c)(2)(A), which stipulates:

    “No provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be held liable on account of . . . any action voluntarily taken in good faith to restrict access to or availability of material that the provider or user considers to be obscene, lewd, lascivious, filthy, excessively violent, harassing, or otherwise objectionable, whether or not such material is constitutionally protected.”

    Bold mine, to bring out the operative term.

    Current interpretation: Any Internet service provider may disallow any particular user content, for any stated reason, and may not be held liable for that decision.

    There is an argument that Section 230 only applies to subject matter within the Communications Decency Act, and the bolded words are in fact quite limited.

    See here: https://www.city-journal.org/how-to-interpret-section-230-protection-for-big-tech

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  189. If Twitter couldn’t consistently remove child sexual exploitative content on the platform today, how would it even begin to monetize porn?

    I believe that there are porn sites on the Internet that attempt to do both these things. Or so I’m told.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  190. “Section 230 was implemented specifically because a lot of early Usenet boards in the 90s had devolved into hazmat sites for child porn postings by pedophiles, and something needed to be implemented from protecting hapless board owners and admins from being brought up on charges of distributing it. ”

    You have child porn on the brain.

    Section 230 was formed due to a couple of court cases in the 90s: Cubby vs CompuServe and Stratton Oakmont vs Prodigy. Neither of these cases had anything to do with child porn. They both involved confliction between the concepts of “publisher” and “distributor” and the effects of moderation.

    Davethulhu (02f479)

  191. So your argument is that even though they make no income from providing access to posts, they should be treated as if they do because ignorant people don’t know any different?

    My argument is that the sign they post is not:

    “Join up and see our ads” but rather “Join up and speak your mind.”

    The service they are selling is the one that they say they are selling. That they use ads to subsidize that service does not mean that selling ads is what they do. Without the actual service (public access to an international forum) they cannot sell Ad One.

    My local city has a bus service. Parts of it are free. They say “come ride our bus for free” and that is the service they are providing. It happens that the service is subsidized by tax revenue, but it would be wrong to say that the point of the bus service is to spend tax money.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  192. “The Verge did a whole article on it in 2021, and it’s been a known issue on the platform for years. Twitter execs were initially trying to figure out how to monetize porn until they discovered how insidious the child porn problem was on it and how pathetic they’d been at clearing it out–whether due to sheer incompetence or because their own staff was stuffed with pedophiles who deliberately allowed it, the result was the same.”

    Here’s a link to the article: https://www.theverge.com/23327809/twitter-onlyfans-child-sexual-content-problem-elon-musk

    I can’t find the accusation of “pedophile staff”, perhaps you can quote it for me.

    Davethulhu (02f479)

  193. I’m of the opinion that if twitter does a poor job at promoting discussion/debate/conversation, then the market should reflect that.

    Well, there are attempts, although things like “Truth Social” are rather more restrictive than Twitter ever was. But the problem is the “network effect.”

    Once a channel becomes large enough, the network effect makes competition hard. On the one hand you have a service that “everyone” is on, and a new service has to try to recreate that. Unless there is a sufficient demand for something the original service does not have, it is very hard to build the competition.

    It gets even harder when the oligopoly that controls the Internet backbone (Amazon, Google and Microsoft) decides that THEY will enforce THEIR terms of service on the new startup. Parler ran up against that and had to block some content they did not originally choose to block.

    Truth Social only works because it has a ready-made cult to provide a user base.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  194. The above article is actually pretty solid, explaining the problems Twitter faces in dealing with CSE. Of course, since Musk took control, all these people have been fired.

    Davethulhu (02f479)

  195. How often did you see child porn on Twitter?

    You mean “smut”???? 😉

    Sing it, Tom!!!!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaHDBL7dVgs

    “… when correctly viewed;
    everything is lewd;
    I can tell you things about Peter Pan;
    and the Wizard of Oz- there’s a dirty old man!’ – Tom Lehrer

    DCSCA (d76bba)

  196. Memo to Peace Maker Brandon-

    It’s nearly dinner time; formally ended the Korean War yet?

    DCSCA (d76bba)

  197. “That they use ads to subsidize that service does not mean that selling ads is what they do.”

    No, it’s exactly what that means. Businesses like Twitter and Google have two routes they can go: have users pay for content/access/a service or sell ad space for businesses to target a market audience (or some combination). You are going as far to say they are committing “fraud” by providing a service for free. Yikes! Certainly going the ad route is more speculative, but offering a free service is a good way to get lots of interest. And more eyes, higher ad rates.

    Now you have no problem with Google or Facebook doing this. It’s not “fraud” for Google to not charge for every search you make, but Twitter because it includes political speech….and they’re dominant…at least for now… they must change their business model. Apparently because one cannot find any Right-Wing speech on Twitter, which sounds…as a non-Twitter user…but one who does see links….quite unlikely. The solution is to creatively beat them or let themselves…through losses…run themselves into the ground.

    “My local city has a bus service.”

    And it’s not a privately-owned business. We move away from a for-profit company. If the bus never charged a fare, we would call it a publicly-subsidized service…..not a bus company.

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  198. I think Musk fired the CSE people because they soiled themselves for political reasons

    steveg (367163)

  199. JUST like the baker and the wedding, a communication service that is open to the public must transmit all legal communication. That it, or some of its employees, disagree with the message is immaterial.

    Or is a gay wedding higher in the Rights spectrum that political speech?

    Kevin M (1ea396) — 12/3/2022 @ 11:52 am

    Both the baker and the communication service retain free speech rights and cannot be compelled by the government to make/suppress speech.

    The baker can refuse to make art for a gay wedding. Musk can ban ppl for making fun of him or his friends.

    Time123 (494ca2)

  200. “I think Musk fired the CSE people because they soiled themselves for political reasons”

    I think he fired them because he was desperate to reduce headcount.

    Davethulhu (02f479)

  201. @kevin@152 then it goes to the police, not onto the internet.

    @asset@173 It’s an interesting argument, but because the number of people voting significantly changed between 2016 and 2020, it’s really impossible to say if those green votes went to Biden, or if those people simply didn’t vote for president at all. So it’s possible that taking the green party off the ballot made the difference, but it also might not have.

    @FWO@185 Twitter’s moderation problem is the same as any other huge internet communication platform. It would be too expensive to hire enough people to properly moderate their site so it depends on user reports and almost everything else is done by automation or not at all.

    Nic (896fdf)

  202. Good news from Taiwan:

    Taipei, Nov. 29 (CNA) A delegation led by United Kingdom MP Alicia Kearns arrived in Taiwan on Tuesday for a five-day visit that will include meetings with President Tsai Ing-wen (蔡英文) and other top government officials, according to Taiwan’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs (MOFA).

    The bipartisan House of Commons delegation also includes Conservative MP Royston Smith, Liam Byrne of the Labour Party, Stewart Malcolm McDonald from the Scottish National Party, and independent MP Neil Coyle, as well as two aides, MOFA said in a press statement on Tuesday.

    A group of Australian MPs will soon follow them. The more nations that do this, the better.

    Jim Miller (f29931)

  203. So, with the revelation of MASSIVE & WIDESPREAD FRAUD & DECEPTION in working closely with Big Tech Companies, the DNC, & the Democrat Party, do you throw the Presidential Election Results of 2020 OUT and declare the RIGHTFUL WINNER, or do you have a NEW ELECTION?

    It depends, Donnie Boy. Which option did daddy leave you in the family trust?

    A Massive Fraud of this type and magnitude allows for the termination of all rules, regulations, and articles, even those found in the Constitution.

    Well, then go ahead and terminate them! You Da Man, Mr. Trump!

    nk (404ff3)

  204. Trump: There is no “I got cheated” exception to the Constitition, especially for elections. Every loser thinks they were cheated.

    DRJ (716c76)

  205. “Cry ‘Covfefe!’ and let loose the Kraken!”

    nk (404ff3)

  206. nk – The Kraken are busy. In fact, the Seattle ice hockey team has a seven game winning streak.

    (But I appreciate the quote, anyway.)

    Jim Miller (f29931)

  207. @204

    Trump: There is no “I got cheated” exception to the Constitition, especially for elections. Every loser thinks they were cheated.

    DRJ (716c76) — 12/3/2022 @ 3:49 pm

    I’m a fan of Trump clowning himself.

    More ammo for his Primary challenger.

    I’m hoping for DeSantis, but just about any challenger is going to have a field day.

    whembly (d116f3)

  208. True: Elon Musk and Tucker Carlson Don’t Understand the First Amendment.

    In October 2020, when the laptop story broke, Joe Biden was not president. The Democratic National Committee (which also asked for Twitter to review tweets) is not an arm of the government. It’s a private political party. Twitter is not an arm of the government; it is a private company.

    This matters for a simple but profoundly important reason. The First Amendment regulates government conduct. It does not regulate private actors. The text of the amendment itself says that “Congress shall make no law … abridging the freedom of speech.” That restraint on Congress has since been extended to apply to the U.S. government at all levels—local, state, and federal.

    Activists have tried to argue that large social-media companies essentially function as the government, citing a line of cases that treat private parties as government actors when the private parties perform functions that are “traditionally and exclusively governmental.” Examples include running elections, private prisons, and so-called company towns. But, as the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals recently explained, “hosting speech on a private platform … is hardly ‘an activity that only governmental entities have traditionally performed.’” Social-media companies are not the government.

    This means the First Amendment protects Twitter, the Biden campaign team, and the Democratic National Committee. The “TWITTER FILES” released so far do not describe a violation of the First Amendment. Instead, they detail the exercise of First Amendment rights by independent, private actors.

    One can certainly agree or disagree with the way in which they exercised those rights. Twitter’s decision to delete pornographic pictures of Hunter Biden was entirely justified and appropriate. Its actions to suppress the New York Post story about Hunter’s laptop were far less defensible. But they were Twitter’s decisions to make, and no amount of misguided rhetoric can transform a Twitter story into a government scandal.

    The distinction is crucial. Twitter is but one participant in a marketplace of ideas. Twitter couldn’t truly suppress the Hunter Biden–laptop story. Instead, its censorship launched a national debate that’s still not over. It fueled countless stories across the length and breadth of both mainstream and right-wing media. Arguably, Twitter’s suppression gave the laptop story more attention than it otherwise would have received.

    The Hunter Biden story has been way overblown, as have all the allegations. I’ll be surprised if he’s indicted for anything more than tax fraud and lying on a gun registration application.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  209. @201 The democrat party blamed jill stein for clinton’s loss calling her the ralph nader of 2016. The democrat party made sure the green party was off the ballot in most swing states in 2020 as their number one priority. Biden barely won electoral collage by 43,000 votes in 3 states az. 10,000 ga. 13,000 wi. 20,000 The 81 million votes biden got was irrelevant too electoral collage.

    asset (875013)

  210. @208:

    The Hunter Biden story has been way overblown, as have all the allegations. I’ll be surprised if he’s indicted for anything more than tax fraud and lying on a gun registration application.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 12/3/2022 @ 5:46 pm

    The story isn’t about Hunter Biden.

    I’d argue that the story really isn’t with Joe Biden either.

    The story here, is the fact that the Biden campaign had an open channel with Twitter (and assuming other tech co) to suppress unflattering tweets.

    Twitter, itself, suppressing stuff they don’t like isn’t the issue.

    It’s when its done at request of a government entity is the issue.

    whembly (d116f3)

  211. Elon Musk and Tucker Carlson Don’t Understand the First Amendment.

    when did Musk or Carlson ever assert a 1A violation?

    as usual, French just makes sh!t up

    JF (764633)

  212. Nixon (weaselness), Dole (evilness), Ford (IQ), McCain (half-baked notions) for the GOP.

    That’s an insult to weasels. The Big Dick was a treasonous crook.

    OTOH, Gerald Ford had an ‘IQ’ of 127.08- higher than Dubya’s–as well as Andrew Jackson’s, and U.S. Grant.

    https://thoughtcatalog.com/january-nelson/2021/06/presidents-ranked-by-iq/

    DCSCA (600048)

  213. @FWO@185 Twitter’s moderation problem is the same as any other huge internet communication platform. It would be too expensive to hire enough people to properly moderate their site so it depends on user reports and almost everything else is done by automation or not at all.

    Nic (896fdf) — 12/3/2022 @ 3:25 pm

    Twitter was an adult daycare center where people barely worked to begin with. Even Dorsey admitted they expanded their staff far too quickly. Maybe the company should have sunk some of the hundreds of millions it lost into staff that actually worked on the platform instead of leaving everything to an algorithm, colluding with the DNC, and drinking wine at work in meetings all day.

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d)

  214. whembly (d116f3) — 12/3/2022 @ 5:52 pm

    Ultimately, what was shown last night is nothing we didn’t already know. It’s just nice to have the receipts, and that there’s nothing the DNC can do about Musk releasing them, other than exercise blatant retaliation by cancelling Musk’s Falcon satellite launch contracts and lawfaring him with DoL investigations and IRS audits. And if they actually tried something like that, well, we’d really see at that point who the True and Honest Conservatives actually are.

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d)

  215. FWO, if the Biden administration did that it would be an unlawful abuse of power. I hope they don’t. Based on what you’ve recently written you’d support those acts if they were in furtherance of your political goals.

    Time123 (32dd72)

  216. The trump campaign also had a direct line to Twitter, as shown in the tweets from Matt. Trump was in office at the time so there’s more reason for concern. But there’s no evidence that the Trump used government power to coerce Twitter. But he did frequently threaten to do so.

    Time123 (32dd72)

  217. JF: “when did Musk or Carlson ever assert a 1A violation? as usual, French just makes sh!t up”

    You realize it’s documented in the article that Paul linked, right? As usual, it instead looks bad for you.

    AJ_Liberty (6a18fd)

  218. @216

    The trump campaign also had a direct line to Twitter, as shown in the tweets from Matt. Trump was in office at the time so there’s more reason for concern. But there’s no evidence that the Trump used government power to coerce Twitter. But he did frequently threaten to do so.

    Time123 (32dd72) — 12/3/2022 @ 6:33 pm

    I absolutely believe Trump administration had a back channel too. But, I also believe they were treated differently, or at the very list had very different kinds of back channel treatment simply by the nature of how Twitter was mostly at 97% supporting Democrats.

    So, again, I would point out that the issue here is that tech companies were acting as the propaganda arm of the Democratic parties. (who cares about Hunter? The story there isn’t that he’s a crackhead slut. The story is whether or not our President is compromised).

    whembly (d116f3)

  219. https://www.foxnews.com/us/idaho-murders-handprint-spotted-next-evidence-tape-house-four-students-killed

    4 young students butchered to death in cold blood and other than fox and a few conservative sites, this is mostly ignored. Why is that?

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  220. Whembly, there’s an important difference between “propaganda arm” and “inclined to be more receptive due their own ideology”.

    Time123 (261692)

  221. https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/20543847/wuhan-lab-warning-covid-lab-leak/

    Everyone knows it was a lab leak and that Fauci offshored Gain of Function research to Wuhan. Now we have a scientist on the record admitting as much.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  222. @asset@209 And that’s fine, but numbers don’t necessarily say that.

    @NJRob@219 I saw the story of the death of the 4 students on the news 2/3 weeks ago. I don’t know what’s wrong with your news.

    Nic (896fdf)

  223. @220

    Whembly, there’s an important difference between “propaganda arm” and “inclined to be more receptive due their own ideology”.

    Time123 (261692) — 12/3/2022 @ 7:19 pm

    No, I really don’t think so.

    Why?

    The outcome is the same.

    whembly (d116f3)

  224. Nic,

    didn’t see you post a thing about it. Nor see how the media discussed the issue. Why is that?

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  225. “4 young students butchered to death in cold blood and other than fox and a few conservative sites, this is mostly ignored. Why is that?”

    Why do you think it’s mostly ignored?

    https://i.imgur.com/JOXmgGH.png

    Davethulhu (02f479)

  226. whembly: “how Twitter was mostly at 97% supporting Democrats.”

    I’m not tracking what you mean by this. Twitter itself is used as much if not more by Republicans/conservatives. I would refer you to the following article
    https://www.politico.com/news/2020/10/26/censorship-conservatives-social-media-432643

    AJ_Liberty (6a18fd)

  227. FWO, if the Biden administration did that it would be an unlawful abuse of power. I hope they don’t. Based on what you’ve recently written you’d support those acts if they were in furtherance of your political goals.

    Time123 (32dd72) — 12/3/2022 @ 6:30 pm

    Which is why it’s important that 1) the precedent is never set, and 2) a double standard isn’t exercised for one party but not the other.

    Once those take place, all bets are off.

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d)

  228. Nobody weaponized Twitter more, as a government arm, than Trump did. That the “weapon” was ineffective in his hands, that his rants and tirades and name-calling were a waste of “ammunition”, is nobody’s fault but his.

    nk (404ff3)

  229. Thulu,

    I’m glad you finally found out it happened. Too bad it took me posting it to get you to see it

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  230. “I’m glad you finally found out it happened. ”

    Why do you think I wasn’t aware of it.

    Why do you think it’s mostly ignored?

    Davethulhu (02f479)

  231. @NJRob@224 Well, you see, when I link to something it’s usually something in my field and/or something I think everyone else hasn’t already seen and/or something something directly related to a discussion I’m having with someone. It was on the news, for several days. I expected other people had probably seen it.

    Nic (896fdf)

  232. “other than fox and a few conservative sites, this is mostly ignored”

    This is crap. I saw it on Morning Joe when it broke. A quick internet search shows coverage by everybody. Why exactly would this be a Left/Right conspiracy? Does the deep Right have evidence that Hunter did the killings? Maybe Fauci….or Liz Cheney?

    AJ_Liberty (6a18fd)

  233. The answer is that the killer used a knife instead of a gun, thus proving that guns are actually not dangerous at all. The MSM doesn’t want you to know this.

    Davethulhu (02f479)

  234. “4 young students butchered to death in cold blood and other than fox and a few conservative sites, this is mostly ignored. Why is that?”

    Hogwash! I just googled it and right at the top of the search returns are reports about it from CNN, NYT, ABC News, CBS , The Independent, Idaho Statesman, NBC News, Yahoo News.

    It’s ridiculous to be constantly on the hunt for some injustice being done to Republicans. The murder of four college students is actually about something far more important than any political drivel.

    Dana (1225fc)

  235. And this speaks to a problem with the hard-right today: There is a lot of self-victimizing as a group, and there is a constant belief that everyone is out to get the group. As if people spend their time thinking up ways to shame or embarrass or minimize or degrade them. Always the victim. And the Republicans never seem to get that they have done all of these things to themselves by installing Trump, who hs done all of those same things. And now, Republicans are considering doing it again.

    Dana (1225fc)

  236. The local cops are out of their depth; apparently these are the first murders in Moscow since 2015.

    Rip Murdock (3c89fe)

  237. The local cops have been deliberately withholding information, which feeds conspiracy theories:

    The Moscow police chief on Thursday explained why police have held back information from the public regarding the investigation into the Nov. 13 murders of four University of Idaho students.

    James Fry also expressed confidence that the team of investigators will solve the case, even though no suspect has been identified yet.
    ………
    Fry said when that information is made public, the suspect may learn that information, too, which may jeopardize the case. It also might jeopardize the integrity of a trial if an arrest is made.

    “We’re always going to hold stuff back as much as we possibly can because when you’re talking about the integrity of the case, you’re talking about when this goes to trial, have you tainted jurors?” he said during an interview with the (Moscow-Pullman) Daily News. “There’s a way bigger picture here than just people knowing. Because for it to be a fair trial, you have to have people who don’t know facts and have already made up their own opinions on them.”

    Fry said his department still believes these killings were the result of a targeted attack, though he did not divulge why detectives believe that.
    ………
    Fry said he knows the community has become impatient with the pace of the investigation, but he said the collection and processing of the evidence is being done correctly.

    “I understand people are frustrated with that, but in the end, when you have a rock-solid case, that’s what matters,” he said.
    ……….

    Rip Murdock (4081a4)

  238. Edward Snowden swears allegiance to Russia and receives passport, lawyer says
    ………
    “He is, of course, happy, thanking the Russian Federation for the fact that he received citizenship,” (his lawyer Anatoly Kucheren said). “And most importantly, under the Constitution of Russia, he can no longer be extradited to a foreign state.”
    ………
    It’s unclear whether Snowden swore the oath of allegiance at the same time as he was granted a passport, but the two are common procedures when foreigners become Russian citizens. The text includes swearing “to protect the freedom and independence of the Russian Federation, to be loyal to Russia, to respect its culture, history and traditions,” and to promise to “perform the duties of a citizen of the Russian Federation for the good of the state and society.”
    ………..
    ……… Putin has previously called Snowden’s actions wrong but said he “is not a traitor,” since “he did not betray the interests of his country.”
    ……….
    ……… His lawyer, Kucherena, said when Snowden was granted citizenship that he would not be subject to the partial military mobilization that Putin had decreed days before, since only men with previous military experience were being called up. However, it has been widely reported that many Russians without such experience have been summoned for duty in recent months.
    ………

    Rip Murdock (4081a4)

  239. @kevin@152 then it goes to the police, not onto the internet.

    Which of your reasons suggests that Twitter should ban all discussion of the press reports?

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  240. No, it’s exactly what that means.

    No, it isn’t. Without the yammering multitudes they have no ad revenue. So the first item in tehir business plan has to be “get a whole bunch of people online doing something.” It may not matter to Twitter what that it, but it does matter to the people they attract.

    So, they induce people to come and share their thoughts on their service. Until that happens they cannot sell ads. IF they really don’t give a damn about the users, and treat their use of the service as merely a necessary inconvenience in pushing advertising, then they are using people under false pretenses.

    That’s usually called fraud. That they simply consume people’s time fraudulently and not the more typical money ignores the famous dictum that the two are the same.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  241. Suppose that, instead of advertising, they charged users a monthly fee to maintain an account. Impossible? AOL made money that way for a couple decades.

    But anyway, suppose they did, and there were no ads. By several people’s lights that would change things a lot. To me it doesn’t really matter whether payment is direct with cash, or indirect by watching commercials.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  242. To the degree that Russia is an enemy, Snowden has quite exactly committed treason, adhering to an enemy, giving them aid and comfort.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  243. @Kevin@240 I don’t think twitter should do that?

    Nic (896fdf)

  244. It’s when its done at request of a government entity is the issue.

    Right. The Biden campaign was not a government entity, hence overblown.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  245. when did Musk or Carlson ever assert a 1A violation?

    Try reading the link, because the assertions are right there.

    Responding to a document where a Twitter employee indicated that Twitter had “handled” those posts, Musk tweeted, “If this isn’t a violation of the Constitution’s First Amendment, what is?” He followed up moments later with a slightly longer statement: “Twitter acting by itself to suppress free speech is not a 1st amendment violation, but acting under orders from the government to suppress free speech, with no judicial review, is.”

    Last night, on Fox News, Tucker Carlson also picked up the claim about the First Amendment. With characteristic breathless hyperbole, Carlson declared that the documents “show a systemic violation of the First Amendment, the largest example of that in modern history.”

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  246. Good thread by Mr. Chovanec, asking without googling whether people agreed or disagreed with this quote: “The selfishness of a relatively small stratum rules under the mask of democracy. This stratum is neither checked nor controlled by anyone.”

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  247. It’s ridiculous to be constantly on the hunt for some injustice being done to Republicans. The murder of four college students is actually about something far more important than any political drivel.

    Dana (1225fc) — 12/3/2022 @ 9:05 pm

    Dana,

    you had to google it to find out. Enough said.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  248. Late at night, when things get weird,
    And tired brains have random bursts among their cells,
    But it’s a Saturday night, an internet site,
    I guess there’s no Dram Shop Act.

    nk (404ff3)

  249. It’s on every news aggregator, every day, NJRob. It only competes with the election and Ukraine for coverage.

    nk (404ff3)

  250. Kevin, final point, if legislation isn’t seeking to make ISP’s common carriers…only web publishers….doesn’t that give the game away?

    AJ_Liberty (6a18fd)

  251. Nk,

    It’s not on every news show. It’s not being discussed by the talking heads. It can’t cause a race riot or get people to give up the 2nd Amendment so it doesn’t matter.

    NJRob (803d23)

  252. @252, I think when there is more news, then you will see more coverage. Yes, news sources tend to keep their favorite stories buzzing….and this one does not have clear links to race, guns, or extremism. This story does not contain obvious controversy which would make it newsworthy. It’s a mystery. Not all mysteries are easily solvable. I’m of the opinion, let the police do their job….and let’s reserve judgment for an appropriate time.

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  253. I’m not tracking what you mean by this. Twitter itself is used as much if not more by Republicans/conservatives. I would refer you to the following article

    AJ_Liberty (6a18fd) — 12/3/2022 @ 7:50 pm

    That article and the analysis is cherry-picked to the extreme, focusing on flashpoint events rather than sustained use. Meanwhile, from Pew the same year the study was done:

    Most U.S. adults on Twitter post only rarely. But a small share of highly active users, most of whom are Democrats, produce the vast majority of tweets. The Center’s analysis finds that just 10% of users produced 92% of all tweets from U.S. adults since last November, and that 69% of these highly prolific users identify as Democrats or Democratic-leaning independents.

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d)

  254. #239, #243 I wish our news folk would stop referring to Snowden as a “whistleblower”. We have a legal way for government employees and contractors to object when they think something is wrong. Snowden didn’t use that way, didn’t even try to use it.

    (I’ve read enough of Edward Jay Epstein’s book on Snowden so that I can say with some confidence what his motive was. Intelligence professionals sometimes talk about the four main motives for treason: MICE, money, ideology, compromise, and ego. Snowden appears to have damaged the US and our friends, helped “Emperor” Xi and “Czar” Putin for the last reason, because it made him feel big.)

    Jim Miller (f29931)

  255. As far as we know the white college students in Moscow weren’t murdered by law enforcement, which seems to be a particular trigger for protests. In addition, being white in a community that is 90% white doesn’t show that the victims were being targeted for their race.

    I dare say that if the victims had been black (1.1% of the city’s population) and the police had killed them, the reaction would have a lot different.

    The fact that there is limited national coverage reflects the lack of news, given that the police department a) doesn’t have a clue as to what happened (as noted above these are the first murders since 2015); b) won’t release what little it does know; and c) there is no video to endlessly show.

    Also, right now it is 23 degrees in Moscow, headed up to 27. Too cold to protest.

    Rip Murdock (4081a4)

  256. Dana,

    you had to google it to find out. Enough said.

    No. You are wrong. I’ve read about it since Day 1, as many here have. I googled it last night to see if it still popped up on bigger media outlets. Which it did. Why are you so desperate, to not only be right, but to make it look like the situation was only covered by Fox News? Imagined injustice is the hallmark of today’s Republican Party. This complaint is a microcosm of the cult-like mentality of so many of its members.

    Dana (1225fc)

  257. So, Tiabi’s reporting said that both the Biden campaign and the Trump White House asked for tweets to be deleted. We know what the Biden campaign wanted taken down; the Laptop story and graphic pictures of his sons genitalia. We know that there was debate within Twitter on what to do with the request. We know that their final decision turned out to be a poor one on the laptop story.

    What tweets did the Office of the President ask be removed? Why didn’t these requests come from the campaign? What conversations were there within Twitter about these requests? Would be good to get that part of the story as well.

    Time123 (77af53)

  258. I am surprised Trump’s musings on the Constitution have not been discussed this morning. Maybe the more sensible among us are busy getting the Christmas decorations up.

    Appalled (3e2d86)

  259. Iranian protesters to launch 3-day general strike

    Protesters in Iran called on Sunday for a three-day strike this week, stepping up pressure on authorities after the public prosecutor said the morality police whose detention of a young woman triggered months of protests had been shut down.

    Protesters seeking to maintain their challenge to Iran‘s clerical rulers have called for a three-day economic strike and a rally to Tehran’s Azadi (Freedom) Square on Wednesday, according to individual posts shared on Twitter by accounts unverified by Reuters.

    Similar calls for strike action and mass mobilisation have in past weeks resulted in an escalation in the unrest which has swept the country – some of the biggest anti-government protests since Iran‘s 1979 Islamic Revolution.

    The activist HRANA news agency said 470 protesters had been killed as of Saturday, including 64 minors. It said 18,210 demonstrators were arrested and 61 members of the security forces were killed.

    Also, this Twitter thread from Amnesty Iran

    Apparently, 28 people are facing the death penalty for their involvement in protests, and many fear that these executions are imminent.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  260. I absolutely believe Trump administration had a back channel too

    The recent doc releases say that this is true, and also suggest that the backchannel was far less effective as many at Twitter were disinclined to give a damn about what the Trump people wanted.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  261. I can’t speak for others, Appalled @ 259, but it was totally unsurprising that he finally said the quiet part out loud. We’ve always known that he sees the Constitution as an annoying irritant, and that he is not bound by loyalty to anything other than himself. He has also repeatedly demonstrated that he believes himself above the law, any law. Although it should, I doubt any of this will make a difference to his cultish followers.

    Dana (1225fc)

  262. Why are you so desperate, to not only be right, but to make it look like the situation was only covered by Fox News? Imagined injustice is the hallmark of today’s Republican Party. This complaint is a microcosm of the cult-like mentality of so many of its members.
    Dana (1225fc) — 12/4/2022 @ 8:53 am

    LOL Is this also a commentary on those who whined that Fox News didn’t carry the J6 shamvestigation?

    JF (d8ad84)

  263. Appalled (3e2d86) — 12/4/2022 @ 10:23 am

    Was discussed yesterday. Look upthread.

    But the networks aren’t covering it every minute of every day, unlike the Idaho and Las Vegas murders. Obviously some kind of nefarious news blackout going on.

    JF (d8ad84)

  264. whembly: “how Twitter was mostly at 97% supporting Democrats.”

    Opensecrets shows that of the several hundred thousand contributed by Twitter employees in recent elections, only about $400 went to GOP candidates. More that ten times that amount went to third-party and independent candidates.

    This was an employee base that had a monolithic worldview, possibly intentionally. Like the plight of a conservative in the WaPo newsroom, or a liberal at Fox News, such people would soon find themselves ostracized.

    In any event, the decisions made in late 2020 were openly hostile to Trump and Republicans — the pretense of even-handedness had disappeared and the company intentionally filtered information for its favoritism to the Dems.

    This is not to say that Trump lost because of this — he was master of his own failure — but that having a pervasive political discussion subject to partisan censorship is NFG for the country. Or, it seems, Twitter.

    I expect those defending this bias to find some reason why, if it goes the other way under Musk, this is a terrible violation of people’s rights.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  265. @Kevin@240 I don’t think twitter should do that?

    But they did, and they did for thinly-disguised political reasons.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  266. The Twitter ban on discussing Hunter Biden is reminiscent of the Canadian judge who barred Canadian news media from discussing trial testimony that showed that large amounts of money from a government PR program had been funneled back into Liberal Party campaign funds.

    This publication ban would have been in effect during a snap election — planned to take advantage of the news blackout had not US bloggers, not subject to the order, laid the information out for all to see. As it happened the election was not called, and when it eventually happened the Liberals were routed.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  267. I am surprised Trump’s musings on the Constitution have not been discussed this morning. Maybe the more sensible among us are busy getting the Christmas decorations up.

    See my post at 146. It may be that there is no good argument in Trump’s defense.

    Trump is still ignoring the First Rule of Holes, but I would expect nothing else.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  268. But the networks aren’t covering it every minute of every day, unlike the Idaho and Las Vegas murders. Obviously some kind of nefarious news blackout going on.

    The WaPo covered it yesterday and today. The NYT didn’t. This may be because it is such total asshattery and beclownment that it’s the journalistic equivalent of shooting fish in a barrel.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  269. you had to google it to find out. Enough said.

    I didn’t. I saw CNN and MSNBC cover the murders, on multiple occasions. Your comment is full of sh-t.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  270. And this speaks to a problem with the hard-right today: There is a lot of self-victimizing as a group, and there is a constant belief that everyone is out to get the group. As if people spend their time thinking up ways to shame or embarrass or minimize or degrade them. Always the victim. And the Republicans never seem to get that they have done all of these things to themselves by installing Trump, who has done all of those same things. And now, Republicans are considering doing it again.

    No.

    The establishment GOP– ‘the fleas in the tail that no longer wag the dog’– the elite Righty Royalists- did all “these things” to themselves by repeatedly seducing and abandoning the very voting blocks essential to their re-election, cycle after cycle after cycle for decades– and these voters increasingly got fed up- and caldron finally boiled over as an outsider finally surfaced and won: Trump. And there will be another Trump when he’s gone- as the ranks of populists continue to grow– with more and more voters abandoning any major party affiliation, becoming indies and root the tree of populism deeper and deeper. The Rs and the Ds are minority parties- most voters do not belong to either now– yet they have controlled the electoral system for decades and only offer up crappy candidates the Royalists in both parties prefer and voters are left to choose crap– or choose not to vote at all. Both these power hungry ‘major parties’ have done more damage to the US than Adolf, Tojo, Josef, Vlad or Xi could have dreamed. The party that recognizes and absorbs the bulk of current populist concerns is the one that will adapt and shape a future. what exists now is a disaster- and the Founders warned of it.

    DCSCA (5067ee)

  271. Kari Lake Is the New Stacey Abrams

    What Kari Lake wants the public to forget is that she lost the Arizona gubernatorial race by 17,116 ballots, or 0.7 percentage point, which is outside of recount range. She’s now calling the election a “sham.” Congrats, Ms. Lake, you’ve earned the 2022 Stacey Abrams Sore Loser Award.

    ……….. How did she perform in Maricopa specifically, compared with other Republicans?

    …….(T)he Arizona Republic points to a Maricopa precinct called Bayshore, where it says Republicans have an 11-point registration advantage. The state’s three Trumpiest politicians all lost the precinct. Ms. Lake garnered 2,003 votes. Senate aspirant Blake Masters took 1,911. Secretary of State nominee Mark Finchem had 1,877.

    (GOP State Treasurer candidate Kimberly) Yee won Bayshore with 2,229 votes, 11% more than Ms. Lake. (GOP county prosecutor Rachel) Mitchell earned 2,080. A GOP state Senator had 2,120. The takeaway? Ms. Lake would have won if she hadn’t alienated mainstream Republicans. …….
    ………
    ………(H)ow can Ms. Lake blame no-shows for her loss, when other GOP candidates in Maricopa outran her by tens of thousands of votes?
    ………..

    Rip Murdock (4081a4)

  272. We’ve always known that he sees the Constitution as an annoying irritant, and that he is not bound by loyalty to anything other than himself.

    That’s not unique to The Donald- who has a corporate mind set as is. Every POTUS see it as an envelope with a boundary to push and loyalties to nurture. The Big Dick, LBJ, JFK, HST, certainly FDR– even 18 wheeler, lunch bucket, Amtrak, mayor of Brandon Falls Joe. The problem in Amerioca are the two parties: they only want power– and they both suck.

    And has the CJ o/t SCOTUS found and outed the leaker yet? Nope.

    …and Alito smiled.

    DCSCA (5067ee)

  273. The issue isn’t that Milo was fired, it’s that he didn’t have the good sense to quit Team Ye after Ye praised Hitlier.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  274. Silence from top Republicans about a former Republican president seeking re-election while suggesting that the Constitution be tossed aside:

    As of Sunday morning, Republican leaders, including Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, R-Ky., and House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy, R-Calif., as well as the Republican National Committee had not publicly commented on Trump’s post. NBC News reached out to spokespeople for McConnell, McCarthy and the RNC for comment Saturday but did not receive any response.

    Yet one more valid reason and prime opportunity for the Republican Party to excise Trump from its midst and return to being a viable Republican Party. Trump has handed it to them on a silver platter. That they still won’t cut ties with him reaffirms their fear and recognition of Trump’s continuing power and influence as the titular head of the GOP.

    Dana (1225fc)

  275. That they still won’t cut ties with him reaffirms a fear and recognition of Trump’s power as the titular head of the GOP.
    Dana (1225fc) — 12/4/2022 @ 11:56 am

    we’ll be hearing this even after DeSantis gets nominated

    JF (2dc19a)

  276. Kari Lake Is the New Stacey Abrams

    No, she is not. Stacey Abrams is a highly intelligent, highly educated, and relatively accomplished woman. Kari Lake is a Pinocchio who thought she could be a real boy.

    nk (bb1548)

  277. we’ll be hearing this even after DeSantis gets nominated

    Heh! DeSantis!

    I forgot my Dostoyevsky for a brief time. People need a banner to follow. You cannot take away the one they have without giving them a new one.

    nk (bb1548)

  278. we’ll be hearing this even after DeSantis gets nominated
    JF (2dc19a) — 12/4/2022 @ 12:00 pm

    Maybe. But only because his followers remain loyal. Do you think Trump is right? That the Constitution should be “suspended”?

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  279. You cannot take away the one they have without giving them a new one.

    But is that bad? Replacing Stalin with Khrushchev, or Mao with Deng, was a win. I would be hard-pressed to find a potential GOP nominee that would not be an improvement over the traitor, Trump.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  280. Kevin M (1ea396) — 12/4/2022 @ 12:11 pm

    Trump isn’t right but, unlike Biden and his minions and his judge selections, he has no power beyond tweeting about it.

    That we’re getting all worked up over a tweet, as opposed to what’s been happening under our noses, and voted for by many here, is another example of idiocracy.

    Calling the Constitution “living”, meaning it means whatever we think it means at any point in time, is suspending it in all but name only and this has been going on for many decades. But yeah, what about that tweet…

    JF (2dc19a)

  281. “Trump has handed it to them on a silver platter.”

    The GOP loyalists have always prized themselves as being strict Constitutionalists. This is a good test to see where their true allegiance lies — do they really prize the Constitution or is it just an impediment to getting what you want? My prediction is that they’ll change the subject yet again, rationalize Trump’s comments away, and/or find excuses that there’s still no one better. It’s almost like Trump wants to be booted out, so he can go off and run 3rd party to deliver his final blow to the GOP.

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  282. What I think is a typical attitude towards Trump by Republicans:

    “I can’t be really chasing every one of these crazy statements that come out,” Rep. David Joyce said.

    Trump is ending, not with a bang, but a whimper.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  283. It’s almost like Trump wants to be booted out, so he can go off and run 3rd party to deliver his final blow to the GOP.

    Prediction: Should Trump try that, many states will refuse him ballot access on the 14th Amendment grounds. Fair? No. Bad precedent? Yes. But it WILL happen, and even in blue states it will be hard for the Democrats to argue against it. For the Republicans (who desperately need it), it will be “not in anger, but in sorrow.”

    It would be made easier with a conviction for seditious conspiracy though.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  284. It is news because Trump said it bluntly and out loud.
    Obama acknowledged things he was doing were unconstitutional, did them anyway. People swooned like teen age girls at a Justin Bieber concert.
    Clearly the Constitution is an irritant to politicians of all stripes. Supreme Court Justices as well.
    The Constitution is a monkey wrench stuck in the gears of their naked power grabs wrapped in perfectly creased trouser.
    “Popeye” Trump is coarse, blunt, unfiltered and people are appalled that he shows up naked for a naked power grab. “Dear God man, at least put on a bow tie”

    steveg (11303e)

  285. By 2024, Trump’s supporters will have turned from him to support the newer model. It would be delicious Karma for Marla Maples.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  286. Just explaining to myself why DeSantis’s name keeps popping up, Kevin.

    nk (bb1548)

  287. Reports claiming that the Morality Police have been disbanded were traced back to an Iranian official who has no authority over the morals monitors. Rather:

    The guidance patrol was not disbanded, but it turned into a child killing patrol in the street, a mass killing patrol in Kurdistan and Zahedan, a torture and rape patrol in prison.

    People will not be fooled by the think tank of the Islamic Republic and will shout in the street that we want the end of a dictatorial and apartheid government.

    Dana (1225fc)

  288. nobody can read Article I Section 8 and not bust out laughing at anyone getting worked up about Trump’s tweet

    JF (2dc19a)

  289. To be fair, most presidents have pushed the edge of the envelope on their powers, going back to Jefferson and the Louisiana Purchase. The “great” presidents generally did it successfully.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  290. Well, JF, you must have missed the part in the beginning about “provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States” and the “necessary and proper” clause at the end. Not to mention the bit about “regulat[ing] Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;”

    Those have proved quite elastic. You might think that Obamacare isn’t covered as providing for the people’s welfare, or for regulating medical services, but plenty of others would disagree.

    Now, sure, I would have a narrower view and think we went wrong somewhere around Wickard, but I cannot say that the interpretation is impossible. Maybe Alito will surprise me.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  291. But no president has ever suggested that the Constitution should be abandoned. You actually cannot take the Oath and believe that. The statement itself might be disqualifying.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  292. @288: I think this is more the Basij — the SA-like thuggery branch of the IRG, who weigh into demonstrations like Lester Maddox’s goons with axe-handles.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  293. Oh, wait, there is connection between the Basij and the Morality Police. I see places where the term is interchangable.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  294. Kevin M (1ea396) — 12/4/2022 @ 1:14 pm

    sigh.

    Federalist 41:

    It has been urged and echoed, that the power “to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts, and excises, to pay the debts, and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States,” amounts to an unlimited commission to exercise every power which may be alleged to be necessary for the common defense or general welfare. No stronger proof could be given of the distress under which these writers labor for objections, than their stooping to such a misconstruction. Had no other enumeration or definition of the powers of the Congress been found in the Constitution, than the general expressions just cited, the authors of the objection might have had some color for it; though it would have been difficult to find a reason for so awkward a form of describing an authority to legislate in all possible cases. A power to destroy the freedom of the press, the trial by jury, or even to regulate the course of descents, or the forms of conveyances, must be very singularly expressed by the terms “to raise money for the general welfare.

    ”But what color can the objection have, when a specification of the objects alluded to by these general terms immediately follows, and is not even separated by a longer pause than a semicolon? If the different parts of the same instrument ought to be so expounded, as to give meaning to every part which will bear it, shall one part of the same sentence be excluded altogether from a share in the meaning; and shall the more doubtful and indefinite terms be retained in their full extent, and the clear and precise expressions be denied any signification whatsoever? For what purpose could the enumeration of particular powers be inserted, if these and all others were meant to be included in the preceding general power? Nothing is more natural nor common than first to use a general phrase, and then to explain and qualify it by a recital of particulars.

    JF (2dc19a)

  295. “nobody can read Article I Section 8 and not bust out laughing at anyone getting worked up about Trump’s tweet”

    As predicted

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  296. AJ_Liberty (5f05c3) — 12/4/2022 @ 1:28 pm

    “please clap”

    JF (2dc19a)

  297. It’s The Donald’s party; a populist party.

    Trump/DeSantis 2024 for the win. Alas, my poor Nikki [who has a better personal story and depth of experience than the disagreeable opportunist, Mickey Mouse battling Florida gov. She’ll get edged out.] Who picks a fight with a beloved iconic cartoon, anyway? Another two-dimensional cartoon quacking quickly forgettable gibberish, of course: Donald Duck.

    Four years of clearing out Joey’s 20th century wreckage w/’Apprentice’ DeSantis in tow; then at least 4 years of him. But then, seem the 20th century establishment Tareyton smoking GOP elites ‘would rather fight than switch’ — than win. They crave the party control they’ve lost; not charting a course for the future to win.

    “Why be a governor or senator when you can be king of Disneyland?” – Walt Disney
    “Why would I want to be president? I’m the king of Disneyland.” – Walt Disney

    DCSCA (f580de)

  298. Trump and his MAGA supporters have obviously hated the constitution and the values our country was founded on for some time. This is nothing new. Why bother with their lies, excuses and evasions? To support them is to support the dissolution of out system of government in furtherance of their alt-Rigt grievances.

    Last week their leader dined with ethno-nationalist Neo-Nazis and Anti-semites. This week he calls for the dissolution of the constitution. I’m betting that next it’s a call for “true” Americans to use violence to support him.

    Time123 (d8e605)

  299. “please clap”

    Sounds like when Trump walked into the MAL dining room, stood there, then gestured to the diners to give him a round of applause.

    Radegunda (a1be67)

  300. https://www.campusreform.org/article?id=20689

    More leftist bigotry and narcissism.

    NJRob (91414e)

  301. As I recall, Trump sh-t on the 12nd Amendment in his waning days in office, and now he’s saying that his Big Lie about “Massive Fraud” should give him license for “termination of all rules, regulations, and articles, even those found in the Constitution.”
    To the Trumpists carrying his water like you, JF, how is that not disqualifying, especially since an inaugurated president puts his on the Bible and swears an oath to defend and uphold the Constitution.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  302. Why are you so desperate, to not only be right, but to make it look like the situation was only covered by Fox News? Imagined injustice is the hallmark of today’s Republican Party. This complaint is a microcosm of the cult-like mentality of so many of its members.

    Dana (1225fc) — 12/4/2022 @ 8:53 am

    Dana,

    I have to assume you are letting your anti-Trump colored glasses affect everything. Because this is what passes for news in the Washington Post currently.

    https://www.foxnews.com/media/racism-blame-firing-liberal-msnbc-host-tiffany-cross-claims-washington-post-columnist

    Firing a racist is racism.

    NJRob (91414e)

  303. But no president has ever suggested that the Constitution should be abandoned. You actually cannot take the Oath and believe that. The statement itself might be disqualifying.

    Kevin M (1ea396) — 12/4/2022 @ 1:16 pm

    Obama did when he whined about negative rights. Leftists talk about replacing the Constitution all the time. Biden himself said his actions were illegal, but did them anyway. Same with Obama and his illegal “temporary” amnesty.

    NJRob (91414e)

  304. To the Trumpists carrying his water like you, JF, how is that not disqualifying, especially since an inaugurated president puts his on the Bible and swears an oath to defend and uphold the Constitution.
    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 12/4/2022 @ 1:56 pm

    duh, I said he’s wrong, and unlike you I believe it’s disqualifying for all candidates who want to ditch the constitution, not just Trump. I credit Trump with saying the quiet part out loud.

    JF (2dc19a)

  305. “Last week their leader dined with ethno-nationalist Neo-Nazis and Anti-semites. This week he calls for the dissolution of the constitution. I’m betting that next it’s a call for “true” Americans to use violence to support him.”

    Time, didn’t you read JF? There’s nothing to see here. Opponents of Trump will just oppose DeSantis too. The Constitution is deeply flawed so Trump has a point. Trump’s not in power to do anything…we need to talk about Biden….or someone else. Yeah, what great advice for the GOP. Talk about a recipe for making the GOP a minority party ad infinitum.

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  306. “But no president has ever suggested that the Constitution should be abandoned. You actually cannot take the Oath and believe that. The statement itself might be disqualifying”

    Kevin

    I do believe that people have taken the oath, yet believe the Constitution- or at least wide swaths of it- should be abandoned. Sometimes they use words like “evolve” to put a trouser crease on the abandonment(s) they seek.

    I also think that Presidents have had many discussions about abandoning the parts that hinder their conspired power grabs. Supreme Court Justices argue, again flowered up way beyond Trump level brute force conversational style, but there are/have been some who would love to evolve the Constitution to a point it would bear little resemblance to the original

    Am pretty confident Trump spoke in grand terms about the Constitution and wants to abandon the parts that hinder his favorite brand of power grabbing.
    Sure, this is “whataboutism” and conjecture on my part, but am confident in human nature and do not think Trump is alone here except in his overbearing bluntness and unique brand of stable genius dunce level ability to say the quiet part out loud.

    I’d rather have Trump as a personal enemy than Obama- that goes for enemy of the Constitution as well

    steveg (11303e)

  307. I do think there is a lot of time spent by men wondering about the gown Sanna Marin is not wearing

    steveg (11303e)

  308. steveg, is Trump talking about a scope of power question that is debatable between Constitutional experts and interpretive philosophies….or is Trump arguing that if he doesn’t win, then we should abandon all rules and advance tyranny? This isn’t about whether the Obamacare “tax” is constitutional, where people of good faith can disagree,….this is about insurrection in its next form. If we don’t respect the Supreme Court and we don’t respect the statutes governing elections, what exactly are we governed by? If you want people to start shooting at each other, then these are the arguments to continue to advance….

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  309. 295:

    Two things:

    One, the same person (Madison) argued that we did not need a Bill of Rights for many of the the same reasons. That lack almost broke the Convention (and some delegates walked out or refused to sign over it).

    Two, despite what he says, there is not actual limitation on the authority granted. Either you argue that the entire “general welfare” line is superfluous or throat-clearing (neither common in the Constitution past the Preamble) or that it was put there by people who WANTED a broader reading.

    That Madison had to address the issue almost immediately shows that it was NOT an impossible reading. Nor does his argument hold much water since he uses common rights such as speech and religion to be obvious impediments to legislative action, when many others demanded those be written down. Madison’s claims about the scope of Article I, Section 8 has proven over time to be false.

    That is not to say it could not be read as Madison intended, but it is not clear that this is what the CONVENTION intended.

    I’ll do a little research and see what the arguments were.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  310. Obama did when he whined about negative rights.

    Please find me a quote where Obama said “We need to do away with this thing.”

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  311. Trump and his MAGA supporters

    What do they really want? I think it’s revolutionary change. Heads. Pikes. Walls. They have a lot of elites they want to put up against the wall. Think of Samuel K Doe and Liberia.

    The Constitution and messy things like trials and evidence are in their way. They want to use military force to “fix” the country, starting with 11 million illegals.

    It’s not so much hate as anger at things not going their way, and frustration with working to get the system for right itself, which it never does.

    Emperor Trump, first of his name.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  312. I’d rather have Trump as a personal enemy than Obama- that goes for enemy of the Constitution as well

    Well, he is incompetent. I guess that’s a plus in an enemy. But if you are saying that Trump is less vindictive or petty than Obama, I have to disagree.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  313. That is not to say it could not be read as Madison intended, but it is not clear that this is what the CONVENTION intended.
    Kevin M (1ea396) — 12/4/2022 @ 3:26 pm

    Oh please, the convention followed the dissolution of the articles of confederation which was significantly weaker. Madison had to address objections because there were broad objections to a stronger central government. No one at the time wanted a broad interpretation. They feared a broad interpretation by bad actors over time, which is exactly what has happened, and we’re not talking about Trump.

    JF (2dc19a)

  314. All Trump had to say is that the Constitution is a living document, and it’s just a matter of interpretation. But, he’s not really good at cleverly constructed BS.

    JF (2dc19a)

  315. Bonnie Prince Donnie. “Where’s my Culloden?”

    For Trump we’re going to change the Constitution? What a delusional orange!

    nk (bb1548)

  316. All Trump had to say is that the Constitution is a living document, and it’s just a matter of interpretation. But, he’s not really good at cleverly constructed BS.

    JF (2dc19a) — 12/4/2022 @ 3:59 pm

    Whether he should say it or not, ultimately he said what he said. It’s just further evidence that the party needs to move on to someone younger and more politically capable. Trump caught lightning in a bottle and had a lot of things going in his favor to win in 2016 from a political and cultural standpoint, but he’s far too toxic to pin anyone’s hopes on. People who know how to play the game like DeSantis, Kemp, and Youngkin are better positioned to set the party up for success than Trump ever will be now, especially considering his advanced age and flashpoint personality. If the goal is to get the party Ws so you can advance your political agenda, Trump is not the guy.

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d)

  317. JF,

    As it turns out the limitations on the “general Welfare Clause” that Madison spoke of were debated almost immediately (circa 1790), with the foremost advocate of a broader use being Alexander Hamilton, Madison’s co-author and Washington’s Treasury Secretary. The Federalist administrations used this broader interpretation, but it was repudiated in the election of 1800.

    As late as 1830, Madison is still making the same argument, and still with significant opposition.

    IN 1833, Justice Story argued, in Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States, for the broader interpretation, which allowed spending on items of general welfare, and taxation to support it, much as Hamilton had argued.

    This view was not adopted by the Court until 1936, but it was NOT something they just invented out of whole cloth.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  318. Please find me a quote where Obama said “We need to do away with this thing.”

    June 26, 2014:

    The Supreme Court ruled unanimously Thursday that President Obama exceeded his constitutional authority in making high-level government appointments in 2012 when he declared the Senate to be in recess and unable to act on the nominations.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/supreme-court-rebukes-obama-on-recess-appointments/2014/06/26/e5e4fefa-e831-11e3-a86b-362fd5443d19_story.html

    The very next day:

    So that’s why I’ve said, look, I want to work with Democrats and Republicans. My favorite President, by the way, was the first Republican President — a guy named Abraham Lincoln. So this is not a statement about partisanship. This is a statement about America and what we’re fighting for. And I’m not going to let gridlock and inaction and willful indifference and greed threaten the hard work of families like yours. And so we can’t afford to wait for Congress right now. And that’s why I’m going ahead and moving ahead without them wherever I can. (Applause.)

    https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/the-press-office/2014/06/27/remarks-president-economy-minneapolis-mn

    No direct quote with the exact language you requested, so I understand if the nuance isn’t enough. Even though it is enough.

    BuDuh (741e23)

  319. The definition of “recess” had been gamed since at least the W administration by Congress, which pretended not to be in recess when they were. The question was “what is a recess”? Clearly not a weekend, but clearly the time between sessions were a recess.

    Coupled with that was that the recess appointment, created for an age of horse and buggies (or even train travel) and part-time legislatures, made no real sense in the current world. There was no need to put someone in office to take care of urgent business when Congress hardly ever left town. The power was obsolete.

    So, when the case actually for to the Supreme Court, they took a very narrow view of the recess appointment power and nearly every recess appointment made since, oh, 1950 would have been ruled invalid.

    Obama may have tried to stretch it a bit, but the ruling pretty much made ALL recess appointments a thing of the past.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  320. Factory Working Orphan (bce27d) — 12/4/2022 @ 4:10 pm

    I agree utterly and completely with this.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  321. Stretching the Constitution is cool because everyone does it…

    BuDuh (741e23)

  322. I’d rather have a direct, blunt, obvious, emotion over intellect, Trump-like enemy. I can work around that. Obama is smart and crafty, has legions of apologists and sycophants that dwarf Trumps cadre of same

    steveg (11303e)

  323. That they still won’t cut ties with him reaffirms their fear and recognition of Trump’s continuing power and influence as the titular head of the GOP.</em

    The "power" is not w/Trump but w/t populists and voters who back him; both in the party and the indies who fan the fires of populism and keep their flag flying. THey've tasted victory- and will not be denied repeated tries for same. When he moves on, another will take up the banner. But the fleas in the tail that once wagged the dog are doomed. Populism is battling the entrenched Royalists in both parties now. Hence Joey pandering to specific groups by race and gender- even attempting to move their primaries to foster same; in a desperate attempt to work the system as the parties have it rigged in their favor. Change will come when one of these parties absorbs, champions and addresses the key populist concerns— or both parties are dissolved, which would be better for America – as the Founders were not keen on factional parties to begin with.

    DCSCA (73f508)

  324. Hi AJ

    Appreciate the distinction but I’d rather deal with Trump’s battering ram approach vs the “death by a thousand cuts” version

    steveg (11303e)

  325. Before the Constitution, AOC was running America…

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Articles_of_Confederation

    Discover the desire for state militias when the Continental Army was disbanded- the seeded source of the 2nd Amendment now morphed into insidious absurdity.

    https://www.constitutionfacts.com/us-articles-of-confederation/presidents-who-served/

    Meet the first eight Presidents of the United States… before some dude name George Washington:

    John Hanson (1715-1783)
    Elias Boudinot (1740-1821)
    Thomas Mifflin (1744-1800)
    Richard Henry Lee (1732-1794)
    John Hancock (1737-1793)
    Nathaniel Gorham (1738-1796)
    Arthur St. Clair (1737-1818)
    Cyrus Griffin (1748-1810)

    DCSCA (73f508)

  326. Or you can call it “accumulation of small risks”
    I read somewhere that in combat the “accumulation of small risks” is why pilots are rotated out every 6-10 months

    steveg (11303e)

  327. Stretching the Constitution is cool because everyone does it…

    Let’s say the Constitution said there would be a national system of horse stables*. Reasons. Would we still have them? Possibly. But would we have to have them because the Constitution said so? Probably not. Depending on the reason for the original requirement, we might have something else instead that was analogous.

    Is that “stretching the Constitution”? I don’t think so. Is it a “living Constitution”? Not that either. It’s adapting things for the common world and at this point there is utterly no need for the recess appointment power. It doesn’t take two months for Congress to convene.

    ————-
    * this may sound silly, but consider the post office.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  328. Whether he should say it or not, ultimately he said what he said. It’s just further evidence that the party needs to move on to someone younger and more politically capable. […]

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d) — 12/4/2022 @ 4:10 pm

    Do you believe it was wrong of him to say it?

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  329. this is about insurrection in its next form. If we don’t respect the Supreme Court and we don’t respect the statutes governing elections, what exactly are we governed by?

    There was a time when a King was deposed or the succession didn’t go someone’s way, they’d go off to some other country and raise an army to invade. Queen Mary of England even married the Spanish King in order to get his troops to protect her reign. James II’s attempts to recover his rule in the 1700s was a recent event to our Founders.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  330. Meet the first eight Presidents of the United States… before some dude name George Washington:

    DCSCA (73f508) — 12/4/2022 @ 6:07 pm

    How did you get unblocked?! Oh, well. I’ll fix that in a minute.

    But while I’m seeing this, I at least get to note that “President of the Congress” =/= “President of the United States.”

    And even if it was the same office…your list would be missing four men: Huntington, Jay, Laurens, and McKean.

    Good to see I haven’t been missing anything interesting and/or worthwhile from you.

    Demosthenes (f4e240)

  331. Hi Demosthenes! It’s good to see you around here.

    norcal (862cdb)

  332. Then again, given your first line, it’s possible you may only have been counting from the adoption of the Articles…

    …okay. In that case, you would be less wrong. I give you that much.

    Now to fix that script.

    Demosthenes (f4e240)

  333. Hi, norcal. I still lurk around here from time to time. I just don’t comment anymore. I’ve kind of given up on talking about politics with people in general. Don’t see the point, frankly.

    Anyway, see you ’round.

    Demosthenes (f4e240)

  334. Do you believe it was wrong of him to say it?

    lurker (cd7cd4) — 12/4/2022 @ 6:36 pm

    I figured that was implied, but then you certainly never miss out on an opportunity to try for a gotcha.

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d)

  335. Kevin M (1ea396) — 12/4/2022 @ 6:29 pm

    Huh?

    BuDuh (741e23)

  336. The Constitution says that Congress has the power to raise and support armies. Cavalry is a necessary and proper component of an army. When the cavalry had horses, it had a stables and remount posts. Now that it has tanks and helicopters, it has depots and hangars.

    nk (bb1548)

  337. Factory Working Orphan (bce27d) — 12/4/2022 @ 6:54 pm

    If I thought it was implied I wouldn’t have asked, but I’m always grateful for you to fill me in on my true agenda. Believe it or not, I asked because I was curious. If it was implied, how would my question have been a gotcha?

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  338. Guys, there is no Constitutional theory involved here.

    What you have, on the one hand, is an orange buffoon who used Twitter to say such things as “Liddle Bob Corker”, “Crazy Nancy”, and “Lyin Ted”. And on the other hand a guy who, one way or another, may have prevailed on Twitter to not propagate a possible scandal.

    That’s all. Nothing else. Nada. Zip. Zilch. Like everything else about Trump, it’s all a tale told by a madam (sic), full of smoke and mud, signifying nothing.

    nk (bb1548)

  339. Power stations in north carolina under terrorist attack! 40,000 will be with out power for days. Trumpster grace rainey is under investigation for making terrorist threats in the case.

    asset (ecba7b)

  340. If I thought it was implied I wouldn’t have asked, but I’m always grateful for you to fill me in on my true agenda. Believe it or not, I asked because I was curious. If it was implied, how would my question have been a gotcha?

    lurker (cd7cd4) — 12/4/2022 @ 7:32 pm

    Why do you require clarification?

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d)

  341. Trumpster is right, asset. All the way:

    During Sunday’s press conference Sheriff Fields said Rainey’s posts were “false”, and while they did speak with her they determined her social posts to be not credible; Fields also reiterated the importance of not making false posts during times of emergency. https://www.wral.com/moore-county-authorities-investigate-vandalism-that-left-thousands-without-power/20612783/

    She was also at the Capitol on 1/6.

    nk (bb1548)

  342. BTW, among those active on Twitter, supporting the Iranian protesters, are the Pahalvis: Reza Pahlavi, the former Crown Prince and the Shah’s widow Farah (who still styles herself Empress of Iran).

    Hard to say how Iranians react to that.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  343. No one at the time wanted a broad interpretation.

    Hamilton sure did in 1790, which isn’t all that much later. This particular argument has been ongoing since Federalist 41, and before that even since Madison felt obligated to address the issue. And he was STILL addressing the issue in 1830. It was only that the one-party state of 1800-1828 adopted Madison’s position that it stuck for so long (along with a very narrow reading of interstate commerce).

    And even then. the most seminal work on the Constitution of it’s era, Justice Story’s Commentaries, took the expansive viewpoint.

    When the New Deal Court adopted the viewpoint in 1936, it did not come out of the blue. It had been a position with adherents since the Founding.

    And, of course, the other position is still held and the argument goes on. But, sadly, once a liberal position takes hold, it covers the law like a blob and there is usually no going back.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  344. Why do you require clarification?

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d) — 12/4/2022 @ 7:56 pm

    Who says I require anything? I asked a question. Answer it. Don’t answer it. It’s up to you.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  345. @331. Your Cloaking Device doesn’t operate when you fire off plasma.

    But look! It’s Halley’s Comet!

    DCSCA (969d60)

  346. Am pretty confident Trump spoke in grand terms about the Constitution and wants to abandon the parts that hinder his favorite brand of power grabbing.

    Find a POTUS that doesn’t- and you’ll discover a weak one.

    DCSCA (969d60)

  347. At minimum, the General Welfare Clause asserts that spending must be for some national priority, not just to some local benefit. Now certainly Madison thought that it should have some direct connection to the 18 enumerated powers of Congress or why else have them. Why spell out in detail the power to equip an army when that was certainly in the general welfare? Hamilton was on the other side of the argument and would argue that an enumerated list could never capture every conceivable eventuality and that requiring amendments for each special case would make the document impractical. Judgment should prevail.

    In the 1930’s Hamilton’s view prevailed for better or worse. Is there an enumerated power to authorize social security or medicare or any number of assistance programs? The loose framework is whether it’s part of a genuine national plan and does not purposefully favor one part of the country. I tend to be more of a Madisonian but that train has left the station and now it’s left to politics to limit spending initiatives.

    But none of this makes the Constitution illigitimate — it just means we the people have to make persuasive arguments against the wisdom of spending outside the enumerated powers. At its best, Trump is arguing that election integrity cannot be left to the states or to the Courts. What is he proposing? Nothing especially coherent except that his view should prevail. Its funny that the deep thinking of the Federalist Papers woudl be juxtaposed against this childish rant. But it’s his right to prattle on, but instead of giving him oxygen the GOP SHOULD move on to a new agenda. He’s given them the clear opportunity to say, “yeah, this isn’t working anymore”.

    AJ_Liberty (6a18fd)

  348. Who says I require anything? I asked a question. Answer it. Don’t answer it. It’s up to you.

    lurker (cd7cd4) — 12/4/2022 @ 10:44 pm

    If you asked a question, you certainly required an answer. So why did you need clarification for something that should have been plainly obvious?

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d)

  349. https://www.wsj.com/articles/irs-audits-that-included-comey-mccabe-were-random-selections-report-finds-11669909467

    Any of the usual brigade want to apologize for accusing the former president of using the IRS to target these two corrupt individuals? It was random as I said at the time.

    I’ll wait.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  350. NJRob (eb56c3) — 12/5/2022 @ 6:00 am

    the folks here will get around to that, Rob, right after they’re done cheering on the politically motivated seizure of Trump’s tax returns

    JF (41a04b)

  351. I am amazed at the gymnastics by some over Trump’s latest. Mostly stuff like the constitution has been changed before or Supreme Court has changed the meaning of the Constitution before or Liberals say bad things about the Constitution.

    Trump says — because Twitter didn’t publish a Hunter Biden story that would have changed everything, I should automatically be President now, Constitution or no Constitution. Please explain how this is not the futile bawling of a toddler who has lost his favorite toy. And please explain the political theory that makes this magical thing happen.

    Appalled (0a93a0)

  352. NJRob, I don’t know if i said the audits were retaliation as I don’t recall my exact wording, but I’ll admit that I suspected that they were. I’m glad that I was mistake about that and that the system was not corrupted by a desire to punish the presidents political enemies. Thank you for sharing the link. Always nice to get good news.

    Time123 (dd8dcd)

  353. Appalled it’s pure tribalism. Their guy said/ did so it’s a lie/exaggeration/misunderstanding/less bad then what their enemies did/same thing their enemies did/justified by what their enemies did/necessary as a deterrent for what their enemies will do/not a big deal/a distraction from what their enemies are doing/why don’t you care about this other thing?/whatabout/who cares the important thing is beating our enemies.

    Same series of lies and distractions they brought up when a violent mob of their compatriots violently assaulted the police and seized the US capital in an attempt to prevent peaceful transfer of power based on lies about election fraud.

    Time123 (dd8dcd)

  354. Whembly @218

    I think there’s s spectrum.

    On one end we hav purely neutral people who care nothing for the outcome. On the other we have people fabricating false stories to help their side and telling any lie they think will help them.

    Both are acceptable by private US persons / entities under the first amendment.

    What I think happened at twitter is that people who were primarily working on other things were receptive to the requests of the Biden campaign because of the pre-existing ideology. This caused them to overreact to the initial release of the Hunter Biden story. The information released makes it clear that there was internal debate about how to proceed. In the end they got the decision mostly wrong.

    Time123 (dd8dcd)

  355. NJRob,

    There was the coincidence of two prominent Trump opponents getting the IRS proctology exam. And then there is the spectacle of Trump himself — who was happy to have his anxiety to get dirt on Hunter Biden (a continuin theme, isn’t it?) drive his foreign policy on Ukraine.

    You really are demanding that Trump should have been given the benefit of the doubt. There’s no reason a rational person would have done that, absent tribal loyalties. I am glad — more the sake of the IRS and its reputation — that what looked bad was just coincidence.

    Appalled (03f53c)

  356. Trump tried (and ultimately failed at hundreds of thousands of dollars of costs to the taxpayers) to fire McCabe two days before McCabe became eligible for early retirement. That’s Hate with a capital “H”. So the suspicion was more than justified.

    Comey I did not give a second thought. I was under the impression that persons at his level of responsibility were already automatically audited every year, and that the media were fussing over nothing.

    nk (bb1548)

  357. nk, #350: have you seen John Hinderocker’s take?

    https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2022/12/trump-is-finished.php

    I hate to say this, and the usual suspects will caterwaul, but temperament matters. If DJT could just control himself, he could have made a difference.

    But, to quote an old friend of mine, some people would rather have a cause than an effect.

    Simon Jester (e87920)

  358. Guys, there’s a great solution.

    Vote for the not-Trump candidate in the primaries.

    Not only that, be advocate that we coalesce behind a STRONG candidate to avoid a repeat of the 2016 primaries.

    Youngkin/DeSantis don’t even have to hit Trump all that hard. A simply compare/contrast should suffice, all the while touting their successes as Governor of their state.

    whembly (c88102)

  359. Progress in Utah:

    If the Republican presidential primary were held today, only 14.6% of Utahns would vote for the former president.

    Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis topped the list at 24.2%, followed by Wyoming Rep. Liz Cheney, who lost her reelection bid to a Trump-endorsed candidate, at 16.4%. Former Vice President Mike Pence and Texas Sen. Ted Cruz both had 6%, while former U.N. Ambassador Nikki Haley came in at 3.7%.

    I hope to see that 14.6 percent down to 5 percent*, in every state.

    We have serious problems to deal with, at home and abroad. We need elected leaders who are willing and able to tackle those problems, not narcissists who think everything is all about them.

    (*Why not 0? Because I am practical, and recognize that 5 percent will favor almost any alternative in a poll, however absurd.)

    Jim Miller (f29931)

  360. No, I hadn’t, Simon. Thank you!

    Trump reminds me of that great scene from A Touch Of Evil, where a drunken Orson Welles asks Marlene Dietrich to read his future and she tells him: “You haven’t got any.” “Your future is used up. Why don’t you go home?”

    nk (bb1548)

  361. “You haven’t got any.” “Your future is all used up. Why don’t you go home?”

    [A great line like that deserves to be quoted faithfully.]

    nk (bb1548)

  362. I find people’s views about Constitutional interpretation interesting. I used to be one who would pound the table about what I thought were strained readings and trajectories of the necessary and proper and commerce clauses. OK, I’m still bothered but have a moved to a grudging acceptance and eyerolls rather than poundings.

    One flaw in the Constitution is that there is no textual guidance as to how to do interpretation, probably because the founders had no clear idea on how it should work. In fact, the power to do judicial review is at best implied, then formalized by the Court itself in Marbury. So, Article III does not say “use originalism”, even though I think the structure of the document strongly suggests to do exactly that. But is originalism also results-oriented or is it perfectly objective? We tend to see what we want to see. The founding era was more skeptical of national power, agrarian, and state-focused. The country has changed and the problem is that structural constitution changes via Article V are tough. I always lament that those in the 1930’s should have done the heavy lifting to have set a better legacy of using Article V. Instead, in came the Court to try and efficiently, though imperfectly, reflect changes.

    The Constitution is not a holy book or a rigid state machine. New situations arise where old principles should be applied but with some eye to justice. Nature abhors a vacuum. When the Article V process atrophies and Legislatures become dysfunctional, this opens the door to Court mischief. If we don’t want to be ruled by elitist judges, we truly do need to make the system work better. Pounding the table feels good, but self-governance takes more nuance….

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  363. @350. Dream on…

    A complete collection of the best Donald Trump New York Post covers

    https://nypost.com/2017/01/20/donald-trump-in-new-york-post-covers/

    ‘They Met In Church’

    ‘Don Juan’

    ‘How Suite It Was’

    Marla boasts to her pals about Donald: ‘Best Sex I’ve Ever Had’

    DCSCA (18c11f)

  364. At minimum, the General Welfare Clause asserts that spending must be for some national priority, not just to some local benefit

    This is strained these days, especially during the campaign season when a president is seeking re-election.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  365. At its best, Trump is arguing that election integrity cannot be left to the states or to the Courts. What is he proposing?

    Empire, near as I can tell.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  366. @364 Great thought-provoking comment.

    I think part of the issue, is this view that the Federal Government must be the all powerful answer to solve society’s ills.

    We need to get back to a federalist mindset that it’s the STATE where the power resides, and only the NARROW and necessary power is reserved to the FEDERAL governance.

    whembly (d116f3)

  367. When you’ve lost the New York Post ….

    Excellent piece. And the fact remains that, whatever the effect of the elitist sabotage of the Trump campaign, Trump had the power to effect victory and failed to use it. Simply telling his supporters to get those mail-in ballots and send them in would have won every close state he lost, and gained him re-election.

    But Trump was so focused on creating a victimization that his loss was self-fulfilling.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  368. Any of the usual brigade want to apologize for accusing the former president of using the IRS to target these two corrupt individuals? It was random as I said at the time.

    Just like the IRS audit of Paula Jones was right after the Clinton impeachment.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  369. Hair and religion: When I first started following former prime minister Boris Johnson (probably when he became mayor of London), I was struck by the way his hair always looked as if he had come out of a shower, and hadn’t had time to comb it.

    After a bit, I realized that, even when he was outside in a breeze, his hair didn’t move. And then I read that, at times, just before going on camera, he would deliberately mess it up.

    So he was saying something to British voters with that deliberately touseled look. With, of course, the help of hair spray, or something to keep him looking that way.

    His religion is even more confusing than his hair:

    Johnson was baptised a Catholic and later confirmed into the Church of England,[52] but has said that his faith “comes and goes”[799] and that he is not a serious practising Christian.[800] In 2020, his son Wilfred was baptised Catholic, prompting suggestions that Johnson had returned to Catholicism.[801] Johnson and Symonds married in a Catholic ceremony at Westminster Cathedral on 29 May 2021.[802] To be married in the Catholic Church, Johnson needed to have his two previous marriages proven to be invalid by reason of lack of canonical form. Since he was baptised Catholic, but his previous weddings were not conferred by the Catholic Church, they are considered putatively invalid.[803][804]

    Johnson holds ancient Greek statesman and orator Pericles as a personal hero.[805][806] According to Johnson’s biographer, Andrew Gimson, regarding ancient Greek and Roman polytheism: “it is clear that [Johnson] is inspired by the Romans, and even more by the Greeks, and repelled by the early Christians”.[807] Johnson views secular humanism positively and sees it as owing more to the classical world than to Christian thinking.[808] However, in 2021, Johnson was asked if he held pre-Christian beliefs, which he denied, saying, “Christianity is a superb ethical system and I would count myself as a kind of very, very bad Christian[.] No disrespect to any other religions, but Christianity makes a lot of sense to me.

    But I think most political observers would agree that what he says about Christianity hasn’t hurt him with most British voters.

    I mention all this because one of our tribalists seemed to think that it was illegtimate to wonder about defeated gubernatorial candidate Kari Lake’s odd hair style and late conversion to Christianity.

    It is, of course, entirely possible that she chose the first for practical reasons, and the second entirely for a new-found faith. Which is why I asked questions about them, rather than accusing her of anything.

    It is also possible that she has multiple reasons for both, that she wants to be practical — and to look tough, and that she has found a new faith — and understands that a Buddhist might not appeal to most voters in Arizona, especially Christians.

    To me such questions are just as legitimate as wondering why John Kerry showed up to a church in ski clothes, when he was running for president, or thinking that “cafeteria Catholic” is a fair description of Nancy Pelosi. (Or wondering why Washington’s senior senator Patty Murray has chosen such an unflattering hair style.)

    (Oh, and Boris Johnson was forced out of office by his own party, because of a series of scandals, and his unwilingness to be consistently truthful.)

    PS – I’d be grateful if someone who knows more than I do about such things would give their best guess at what Lake may be saying with that hair style.

    Jim Miller (f29931)

  370. And please explain the political theory that makes this magical thing happen.

    Easy, Peasy.

    Civil War, establishing Trump as Emperor (and his son as successor, assuming that Ivanka doesn’t poison him in favor of Jared).

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  371. With Trump calling for overthrowing the Constitution, after taking an oath to uphold it, is that sufficient to keep him off any ballot in 2024? Or must he be conviction of an actual act of rebellion before the 14th Amendment prohibition takes hold?

    This is not an idle question. The Electoral Count Act passed by the House contains a provision for disallowing any electoral vote cast BY, or cast FOR, a person who is ineligible to be an elector or officeholder under the 14th Amendment disqualification clause.

    It would be WAY (tF) better to block him from running than to block him from taking office after winning the election.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  372. @364: IF I were to make one amendment, it would be to Article V, allowing Congress to be bypassed short of a Convention.

    Such as:

    The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it necessary, or the States, whenever two thirds of them shall pass identical resolutions within a span of seven years, shall propose Amendments to this Constitution, or, on the Application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States, shall call a Convention for proposing Amendments, which, in either Case, shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as Part of this Constitution, when ratified by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States, or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other Mode of Ratification may be proposed by the Congress; Provided that no Amendment which may be made prior to the Year One thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any Manner affect the first and fourth Clauses in the Ninth Section of the first Article; and that no State, without its Consent, shall be deprived of its equal Suffrage in the Senate.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  373. Probably also want to codify the 7 year ratification period

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  374. With Trump calling for overthrowing the Constitution, after taking an oath to uphold it, is that sufficient to keep him off any ballot in 2024? Or must he be conviction of an actual act of rebellion before the 14th Amendment prohibition takes hold?
    ……..
    Kevin M (1ea396) — 12/5/2022 @ 9:01 am

    Probably not, as Trump’s statement is protected by the First Amendment. Disqualification would probably require an overt act and a judicial finding, see State of New Mexico ex. rel v. Couy Griffin (p. 27).

    A New Mexico state court judge ruled Thursday that the founder of the group “Cowboys for Trump” must be removed from his post as an Otero County commissioner due to his participation in the Jan. 6, 2021, assault on the U.S. Capitol.

    Judge Francis Mathew, of the 1st Judicial District Court in Santa Fe, ordered Couy Griffin to be stripped of his position effective immediately and permanently prohibited him from seeking or holding any federal or state position. In his ruling, Mathew said Griffin is barred from public office under Section 3 of the 14th Amendment because he “engaged in” the Jan. 6 insurrection and became disqualified from serving in federal or state elected positions the day he participated in the Capitol assault.

    Source His appeal to the New Mexico Supreme Court was denied.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  375. I find people’s views about Constitutional interpretation interesting…….

    Constitutional interpretation fantasy camp.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  376. @376: I agree with you that Trump’s statements are insufficient.

    I disagree that Griffin’s case was decided correctly as he was only convicted of trespassing, which is a FAR cry from insurrection. His appeal to the federal courts, which is now ripe, will result in the decision being overturned. Failure to do so will leave enormous room for mischief.

    Not that it will help him much as his term will have expired.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  377. Constitutional interpretation fantasy camp.

    In what way? I’m pretty sure my posts on the history of the General Welfare Clause were accurate, although AJ’s were more succinct.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  378. There is disagreement among law professors whether/when Section 3 applies. To deny Trump access to primary ballots would require a state by state determination of eligibility.

    What the litigation path of eligibility challenges to Donald Trump may look like
    ………
    It’s best to think of four separate stages of a presidential candidacy: running for office, appearing on the ballot for the presidential preference primary, appearing on the ballot for the general election, and the votes of presidential electors. And for any challenge (not so subtly presaged by many, many left-of-center attorneys out there) to Trump’s candidacy, the timing and context matters.

    First, anyone, eligible or not, can run for federal office. Avowedly unqualified candidates must comply with federal campaign regulations, but they are not barred from fundraising or campaigning. …….The Federal Election Commission, however, has concluded that eligibility is not a condition for running for presidential office…….
    ……..
    Second, filing to appear on the ballot in the presidential primaries. There is a layer of complexity here. …..

    States will have signature-gathering opportunities that begin later in 2023, and the earliest state deadlines to file those signatures (or meet other applicable deadlines) start in November. ……

    (Challenges) often begin in either a state administrative tribunal (that’s how recent challenges in Illinois and New Hampshire, along with Indiana, began) or in a state court. It is worth noting these crop up in individual states on an ad hoc basis. Some allow any eligible voter to bring a challenge. Others may require it to be an opposing candidate who would have the standing to challenge. Some states only require candidates assert eligibility under three principal qualifications (age, residency, natural born citizenship status), while others speak more generally about being “qualified.” Most state tribunals have construed their jurisdiction broadly to suggest that they do have the authority to adjudicate qualifications. …….

    ……..(T)his is a piecemeal, ad hoc process……. Some states even permit ineligible candidates to appear on the ballot. Importantly, states have no obligation to exclude an ineligible candidate (or a purportedly ineligible candidate) from the ballot. …..

    Third, filing to appear on the ballot in the general election. …….

    Fourth, serving in office. It’s entirely possible that Congress chooses to exercise its powers under the Counting Clause of the Twelfth Amendment to refuse to count votes cast for a candidate it deems “ineligible.” That is, of course, a suboptimal solution–waiting until January 6, 2025 and the uncertainty and havoc that could bring.
    ………

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  379. Constitutional interpretation fantasy camp.

    In what way?

    I was speaking in general terms.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  380. @378: I am reasonably certain that interpretation of the 14th Amendment is not dependent on state laws or state constitutions. As far as I can tell, there is no similar disqualification clause in the NM state constitution.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  381. I disagree that Griffin’s case was decided correctly as he was only convicted of trespassing, which is a FAR cry from insurrection.

    We will see.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  382. That also applies to state election qualification. A state court ruling on the effect of the 14th Amendment is hardly the last word, as the Old South was made to understand.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  383. > Please explain how this is not the futile bawling of a toddler who has lost his favorite toy.

    On the one hand, it *is* exactly that.

    On the other hand, an absolute majority of the Republican party leadership isn’t going to call him out on it and wouldn’t intervene if he tried to do it.

    For that matter, most of the Trumpists who participate in this comments section won’t condemn it, and will instead turn the discussion to how the Democrats are the real problem.

    The Republic is dying because many (maybe most) Americans no longer want it, as long as they can use the power of the state to screw their perceived enemies.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  384. > The Electoral Count Act passed by the House contains a provision for disallowing any electoral vote cast BY, or cast FOR, a person who is ineligible to be an elector or officeholder under the 14th Amendment disqualification clause.

    And *maybe* a House run by the Democrats would have the courage to do that, but a House run by the Republicans for sure will not.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  385. We will see.

    Doesn’t disenfranchising someone for a misdemeanor, under a treason clause, strike you as, well, effing scary? What a wonderful tool for despots. Clean Congress right up.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  386. And *maybe* a House run by the Democrats would have the courage to do that, but a House run by the Republicans for sure will not.

    Why would they put it in if they didn’t consider using it? That it would set off a shooting war — and no one should feel safe in civil war — notwithstanding.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  387. And *maybe* a House run by the Democrats would have the courage to do that, but a House run by the Republicans for sure will not.

    Not with Trump. But perhaps with AOC, claiming [insert reason] she was disqualified?

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  388. On the other hand, an absolute majority of the Republican party leadership isn’t going to call him out on it and wouldn’t intervene if he tried to do it.

    Every one who has been asked has responded negatively. Most are trying to get past Trump and see no need to respond to his every word. As much as the Left wants to keep him in the spotlight, and as much as his cult remains loyal, most actual Republicans are done. His standing in polls continues to drop.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  389. It helps to read the words in the Constitution in the context of the entire Constitution. In the context of the particular Article, Section and Clause in which they are found. In the context of the Grievances in the Declaration of Independence. In the context in which they were understood by implication and connotation at the time they were written.

    And if you do that, you might — just might, mind you — decide that “General Welfare” only means that the King cannot tax the people if he is going to pocket the money for his own personal use. The abolition of the Privy Purse.

    Suggested reading: Compensation; emoluments; Boston Tea Party; No Taxation Without Representation.

    nk (bb1548)

  390. @378: I am reasonably certain that interpretation of the 14th Amendment is not dependent on state laws or state constitutions. As far as I can tell, there is no similar disqualification clause in the NM state constitution.

    Kevin M (1ea396) — 12/5/2022 @ 10:12 am

    The disqualification was based on the fact that Griffin took an oath to support and defend the US Constitution, which is required by the NM Constitution. See pages 34-38 oof the decision for the “overt acts” engaged by Griffin. Also pages 42-44, section B, “Mr. Griffin Can Be Disqualified Under Section Three Regardless of Whether He Has Been Convicted of Any Crime.”

    ………
    63. Nor is a criminal conviction (for any offense) a prerequisite for disqualification. Indeed, neither the courts nor Congress have ever required a criminal conviction for a person to be disqualified under Section Three. …..(Citations removed).

    64. Nor is Mr. Griffin’s acquittal for disorderly conduct legally relevant here. Unlike 18 U.S.C. § 1752(a)(2), Section Three does not require proof that Mr. Griffin engaged in “disorderly or disruptive conduct.” Instead, Griffin is disqualified under Section Three if he “[v]oluntarily aid[ed] the [insurrection], by personal service, or by contributions, other than charitable, of anything that [is] useful or necessary” to the insurrectionists’ cause,” or if he otherwise “leagued” with insurrectionists. ……
    ………

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  391. Doesn’t disenfranchising someone for a misdemeanor, under a treason clause, strike you as, well, effing scary? What a wonderful tool for despots. Clean Congress right up.

    Kevin M (1ea396) — 12/5/2022 @ 10:18 am

    What crimes are misdemeanors under the treason clause? I was unable to find any.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  392. Well, apparently “trespassing” is, because they tossed him out of office for it.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  393. The Supreme Court tries to find the line between free speech and gay rights.

    WASHINGTON — The Supreme Court’s conservative majority seemed prepared on Monday to rule that a graphic designer in Colorado has a First Amendment right to refuse to create websites celebrating same-sex weddings based on her Christian faith despite a state law that forbids discrimination based on sexual orientation.

    But several justices leaning in that direction appeared to be searching for limiting principles so as not to upend all sorts of anti-discrimination laws.

    They explored the difference between businesses engaged in expression and ones simply selling goods; the difference between a client’s message and that of the designer; the difference between discrimination against gay couples and compelling the creation of messages supporting same-sex marriage; and the difference between discrimination based on race and that based on sexual orientation.

    The bottom line, though, seemed to be that the court would not require the designer to create customized websites celebrating same-sex marriage despite the state anti-discrimination law.

    The court’s three liberal members expressed deep qualms about the damage a ruling in favor of the designer could do to efforts to combat discrimination.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  394. The question that bothered most of the justices is whether someone similarly opposed to interracial marriage would have the same forced-speech case. Some said it would not, but were hard pressed to say why.

    And (and here I will surprise aphrael) when you get right down to it, there is a better case for gay (not same-sex, but gay) marriage than there is for interracial marriage. But let me explain.

    If you have a man and a woman of different races AND the law prevents them from marrying each other, that is terrible, but each of them CAN find someone within their own race to marry and carve out a happy life. The damage from such an unjust law is not total.

    But with gay men or women, the analogous situation doesn’t apply. If same-sex marriage is forbidden, a gay person is forbidden from marrying ALL potential spouses. To say that he or she can marry someone of the opposite sex is deeply unsatisfying. Sure, the “beard” has been around since forever, but it’s not really marriage but a closeting of convenience.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  395. “Mr. Griffin Can Be Disqualified Under Section Three Regardless of Whether He Has Been Convicted of Any Crime.”

    Says a state court whose competency to rule on the 14th Amendment is about zero.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  396. For a more modern context, think of why matching Presidential campaign funds are funded by voluntarily checking a box on your income tax return. (It used to be $1 but I understand that now it’s $3.)

    nk (bb1548)

  397. eBay is getting worse, although a very big majority of transactions are still OK.

    Kevin M (1ea396) — 12/2/2022 @ 12:38 pm

    Two things:

    1) Porch pirates. In Soros-prosecutor areas, these crimes are not prosecuted. Even when you have hi-rez camera stills of the thief, the police have other things to do that arrest someone who will not be charged.

    I didn’t have a “porch pirate” – I think I had a dishonest or incompetent mailman who scanned in a belt as delivered. I got a notice from eBay but not from the post office informed delivery that a package was delivered. I went downstairs not an hour later. It wasn’t there. It was sent out for delivery about 6 am and supposedly delivered at 7:12pm. Now back in the summer they didn’t give overtime – they stopped at 6 p,. eBay simply relied on the tracking and they didn’t even say that they relied on the tracking. The seller was only going to rely on eBay and one reply was that sometimes it is delivered the next day. Even though I called the post office, and was told it would be escalated it was not. I think it would have been possible to determine what mail carrier was in charge of the package and where he was when it was “delivered” It just would not be true that it was delivered after 7.. They quit for the day at 6 pm.

    Now eBay has a guarantee. I discovered, after my complaint was after an “investigation” that took no time and went no further than confirming the tracking, that the sale had disappeared from my feedback so I wasn’t even able to leave negative feedback. I eventually disputed the transaction with my credit card company and so far, I’ve been credited, I told the whole story.

    Another package was recently delivered but without my name or completely correct address but with the correct 9-dgit zip code.

    Then there’s a adapter for DC current that has a slight buzz and the seller wants to know the model number of the laptop. It’s for the correct computer. I don’t know how that will turn out.

    But I am really disturbed that eBay looks no further than the tracking and does so even when it would be possible to determine if the tracking was probably true or not and then goes further by removing the possibility of giving feedback – and of course does not honor its guarantee. But you can dispute the charge if it was paid for using a credit card — and it is eBay that should pay – otherwise it should not advertise a a guarantee

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  398. 2) Customers who falsely claim the package they received was stolen.

    Yes, you get it both ways. There are also people who falsely claim their card was used fraudulently, and even more people who pay for “credit repair” services who do that without even their consent – credit reporting firms notice when a lot of similarly worded complaints come in mailed from an addresses 100 miles or so away from the home address of the complainer – that may get rejected, but it may temporarily improve someone’s credit.

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/credit-score-washing-identity-theft-11669848797

    That has smoothed the claims process for people who have fallen victim to identity theft. But the credit-reporting industry says it is also being hit by illegitimate claims, facilitated by companies that promise to help customers fix low credit scores for a fee. These companies file false identity-theft claims on items that bring down customer’s credit scores, like delinquent credit-card debt, often without that person’s knowledge.

    The move often removes that information from the consumer’s credit reports while the claim is investigated. The practice is known in the industry as credit washing, since a person’s credit reports can look better than they really are, at least temporarily, and so can their scores.

    Credit washing has slowed down the process of getting loans at some banks while lenders look for other ways to evaluate potential borrowers. It has added to questions about how useful credit scores really are and eroded banks’ confidence in the credit-reporting system they have relied on for decades.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  399. Kevin M – yep, as expected, the Supreme Court will hold that religious objections to my existence mean it’s ok for anyone to discriminate against me, because their religious objection to my existence is more important than my ability to participate in the marketplace on an equal footing.

    But, as I recall from the last time we talked about this, me openly expressing objection to that is *worse* than people discriminating against me is.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  400. > Says a state court whose competency to rule on the 14th Amendment is about zero.

    So are state courts incompetent to hold that state government actions violate the federal first amendment, too? Or is it just the fourteenth amendment for which state courts have no competency?

    aphrael (4c4719)

  401. But several justices leaning in that direction appeared to be searching for limiting principles so as not to upend all sorts of anti-discrimination laws.

    There’s the difference between items in stock, and personal services.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  402. Well, apparently “trespassing” is, because they tossed him out of office for it.

    Kevin M (1ea396) — 12/5/2022 @ 10:45 am

    Griffin was convicted under 18 U.S.C. § 1752(a)(1) (Entering and Remaining in a Restricted Building or Grounds), which is not part of 18 U.S. Code § 2381 (Treason), though they are both part of Title 18 of the US Code, which includes all federal crimes and procedure.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  403. The basic test of a law is “rational basis”. It’s got to be at least sane. Think of the movie Bananas.

    “Racial purity” is not a rational reason. Not in America and not now, anyway.

    “What you need to get married for, it’s not like you’re gonna make any babies?” is a sane question. And I know, I know, then you get into what’s marriage for in the first place. But at least it’s a sane discussion.

    nk (bb1548)

  404. The clause has not bee used since the 1860’s. At the time, service in the Confederate Army was considered prima facie evidence and a conviction was not required. No rulings under that clause (or cases for that matter) have occurred since the 1870’s.

    I hope to God that the state judge is wrong, because otherwise we will see a period of tit-for-tat disqualifications on the flimsiest of excuses. What can you say about those lawyers who were actually convicted of setting fire to NYC police cars? Or the people who attacked the federal building in Portland.

    Note: I don’t equate those events to attacking Congress in session, but the triviality of the NM 1st District’s opinion would allow for such equivalencies.

    BTW, the PDF you posted is an unusable image file. A searchable PDF is here: https://www.democracydocket.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Couy-Griffin-Sept.-6-2022-1.pdf

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  405. (It used to be $1 but I understand that now it’s $3.)

    It’s $3 but very few people check it off and now major party candidates do not use it because it comes with (I think state by state) limitations on campaign spending. I think, early on, when the chances of either getting the nomination were small, in March, 2007, both McCain and Obama agreed that if they both became the nominee they would use it for the general election (because the dividing point between the primary season and the general election was the convention, both parties started to schedule their conventions very late, even in September.

    https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/mccains-obamas-public-financing-pledge

    https://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/02/us/politics/02fec.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

    Senator John McCain joined Senator Barack Obama on Thursday in promising to accept a novel fund-raising truce if each man wins his party’s presidential nomination.

    The promises by Mr. McCain, Republican of Arizona, and Mr. Obama, Democrat of Illinois, are an effort to resuscitate part of the ailing public financing system for presidential campaigns.

    In every election since Watergate, candidates have received limited sums of taxpayer money on the condition that they abstain from raising or spending any more. But this year, the leading candidates are all sidestepping the system in a competition to raise far more in private donations, more than $500 million each, according to most projections, compared with $150 million in potential public financing.

    But there is a chance that the obituaries for the public system may be premature. On Thursday, a spokesman for Mr. McCain said that he would take up Mr. Obama on a proposal for an accord between the two major party nominees to rely just on public financing for the general election.

    But then, lo and behold, it came to pass, and Obama welched on the deal.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-politics/obama-rejects-public-financing-against-mccain-idUSN1828132020080619

    Obama said in a video message to supporters he would refuse $84 million in public funds available for the November general election. He is the first U.S. presidential candidate to bypass the system since it was created after the Watergate scandal in the mid-1970s.

    The move drew immediate condemnation from McCain, who countered by announcing he would take the public funds — hours after saying he would reevaluate his stance in light of Obama’s decision.

    If Obama had taken public financing, he would have been barred from taking additional donations and limited to spending $84 million in the two months between the Democratic convention and the November 4 election.

    The move was widely expected given Obama’s record-smashing fundraising in a presidential campaign that will be the most expensive in U.S. history. The Illinois senator, said last year he would take general election public funds if his Republican opponent did the same.

    “It’s not an easy decision, and especially because I support a robust system of public financing of elections,” Obama said in a video message e-mailed to supporters.

    “But the public financing of presidential elections as it exists today is broken and we face opponents who’ve become masters at gaming this broken system,” he said.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  406. The rational basis test isn’t much of a bar. Let’s say my city passes a law banning dogs, and says “dogs can bite people, and they can carry rabies.” That IS a rational basis, even if it has political drawbacks.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  407. “Mr. Griffin Can Be Disqualified Under Section Three Regardless of Whether He Has Been Convicted of Any Crime.”

    Says a state court whose competency to rule on the 14th Amendment is about zero.

    Kevin M (1ea396) — 12/5/2022 @ 10:58 am

    Under New Mexico’s quo warranto statute the court does have the authority. From the court decision, pp. 24-25:

    1. A quo warranto action may be brought against a person who “unlawfully hold[s] … any public office” in the State, NMSA 1978, § 44-3-4(A), or “any public officer, civil or military, [who] shall have done or suffered an act which, by the provisions of law, shall work a forfeiture of his office,” id. § 44-3-4(B).
    ……
    3. Any private citizen of New Mexico has standing to bring a quo warranto action and need not demonstrate any direct injury traceable to the defendant. See Martinez, 1980-NMSC-064, ¶ 8 (permitting quo warranto suit by two private persons without addressing any injury to them); Clark v. Mitchell, 2016-NMSC-005, ¶ 8, 363 P.3d 1213, 1216 (stating private persons may bring a quo warranto action against state official upon refusal of district attorney without discussing standing). This reflects the breadth of standing doctrine in New Mexico courts, where standing “is not derived from the state `constitution,” is “not jurisdictional,” and can be freely conferred by statute. Gandydancer, LLC v. Rock House CGM, LLC, 2019-NMSC-021, ¶ 7, 453 P.3d 434, 437 (internal quotation marks omitted).

    4. If the defendant is “adjudged guilty of usurping or intruding into or unlawfully holding or exercising any office, franchise or privilege, judgment shall be rendered that such defendant be excluded from such office, franchise or privilege.” NMSA 1978, § 44-3-14.

    5. “One of the primary purposes of quo warranto is to ascertain whether one is constitutionally authorized to hold the office he claims, whether by election or appointment, and [courts] must liberally interpret the quo warranto statutes to effectuate that purpose.” Clark, 2016-NMSC-005, ¶ 8.

    6. The quo warranto statute authorizes courts to make a “judicial finding” that an official has engaged in conduct resulting in their “forfeiture” of office due to constitutional disqualification. Martinez, 1980-NMSC-064, in 5-6. No prior criminal conviction is necessary if the constitutional qualification at issue does not require one. See id.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  408. With Trump calling for overthrowing the Constitution,

    Trump isn’t serious here about ignoring the constitution.

    He just wants to play victim.

    He has no following that would remotely attempt to install him as president now or hold a redo of the 2020 election.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  409. @407: Yet another way that McCain sealed his own doom. It turned out that the people did not care and further the press did not spend a lot of time telling them.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  410. Ilya Shapiro
    @ishapiro
    Gorsuch: Mr. Phillips [the cake baker in Masterpiece Cakeshop] had to go through a reeducation program, did he not?

    CO SG: No, it was a training to educate him about Colorado law.

    Gorsuch: Some would call that a reeducation program…
    10:34 AM · Dec 5, 2022

    Heh… Based Gorsuch™ is the best Gorsuch.

    whembly (d116f3)

  411. Or is it just the fourteenth amendment for which state courts have no competency?

    Given the history of state courts and the 14th Amendment, nothing they might say on the matter is final since it is mainly a limitation on state action. An idea that was misplaced from 1876 to the 1950s.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  412. The big question is: Who gets to determine whether someone has engaged in insurrection?

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  413. Trump isn’t serious here about ignoring the constitution

    Actually he is.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  414. What can you say about those lawyers who were actually convicted of setting fire to NYC police cars? Or the people who attacked the federal building in Portland.

    I certainly wouldn’t want to see any of them in state or federal office, thankfully they can’t vote now. Given the politics of NYC and Portland, they probably could get elected.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  415. Kevin M:

    Thanks for the better link.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  416. For a more modern context, think of why matching Presidential campaign funds are funded

    If a candidate refuses to limit himself by taking the money, does it roll over to the next election, like a lottery prize?

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  417. @409: Yes, sure. But none of that is on point. The point is “what do you have to show in order to invoke the disqualification clause of the 1`4th Amendment”?

    And that is not discussed anywhere in the state law (if it had been, that would be a decent argument). So, you have to go to what the rule is for the federal matter, and we really don’t have any similar case. We believe that Griffin participated in an insurrection, but he has not been convicted of anything other than stepping over a barrier, a misdemeanor. Is that sufficient to invoke the 14th Amendment prohibition?

    State court opinions say yes, but state courts have a very sorry history (e.g. Jim Crow) with the 14th Amendment absent federal precedent.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  418. Heh! I have no clue. I am pointing to its voluntariness as possibly because it is not for the General Welfare but for the “the King’s” personal use.

    nk (bb1548)

  419. Kevin,

    There is no such thing as homosexual marriage from the dawn of civilization. It’s made up. Marriage is not about happiness, but about ensuring the propagation and support of future generations.

    From 2 fleah became 1.

    NJRob (024de0)

  420. NY Post:

    Did he later take any actions for fear of blackmail?

    While this was not about the laptop, and not strictly blackmail. he appointed George Kent Ambassador to Estonia – to keep him silent (sort of like the way that president Bill Clinton attempted to keep Monica Lewinsky (Linda Tripp too, BTW!) in the employ of the U.S. government)

    Bill Clinton made the mistake of exiling both Monica Lewinsky and Linda Tripp to the same office. He wanted Linda Tripp to keep silent about the time Vincent Foster left the White House and his mood.

    Monica Lewinsky wasn’t about to talk and George Kent probably was not about to write a book, so neither was blackmail, but something official was done to keep someone from talking.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  421. ………
    There is an argument that because the President is not covered explicitly by the provision, the presidency itself is exempt from the disqualification. In contrast, the Impeachment Clause of the Constitution explicitly applies to the “President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States,” which suggests that the President might not be a “civil Officer of the United States” whose oath of office would subject him to possible disqualification. However, it may be more likely that the office of the President is included as an office under the United States (unlike Members of Congress and electors, which may be why they are expressly included), so that any person subject to the disqualification is ineligible to serve as President. One scholar notes that the drafting history of Section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment suggests that the office of the President is covered:
    …….
    Two constitutional powers also arguably authorize Congress to determine the occurrence of an insurrection by legislation: the Militia Clause and Section 5 of the Fourteenth Amendment. The Militia Clause (Art. I, § 8, cl. 15) grants Congress the authority to call forth the militia to “suppress Insurrections.” Section 5 of the Fourteenth Amendment provides Congress “the power to enforce [the Amendment] by appropriate legislation.” A legislative determination that an insurrection occurred pursuant to one of these constitutional authorities would likely at least be accorded judicial weight in the event of a prosecution for insurrection or any procedure Congress might put in place to determine disqualification under Section 3.

    Once an insurrection is deemed to have occurred, the question becomes whether a specific person engaged in it. Section 3 does not establish a procedure for determining who is subject to the proscription on holding office……it would appear that a criminal conviction for insurrection or the “levying of war” prong of treason would provide sufficient proof, and each of them contains a bar on holding office. The insurrection statute, 18 U.S.C. § 2383, provides:
    ……..
    It is unclear whether Section 3 is self-executing, which, if it is not, would leave federal and state courts or election authorities without power to determine the eligibility of candidates unless Congress enacts legislation to permit it. Courts have produced mixed results on this question. Section 3 does not expressly provide a procedure for its implementation other than Section 5’s general authority of Congress “to enforce [the Fourteenth Amendment] by appropriate legislation.”……..
    ………
    ……(A)n injured private party could ask a judge to issue a writ of quo warranto to prevent the seating of, or to oust from office, an individual who allegedly engaged in disqualifying activities. Although it is unclear who would have standing to bring such a suit, it is possible that opposing candidates or individuals eligible to hold the office in question could survive this constitutional, prudential inquiry………

    Source

    An argument that Presidents cannot be disqualified under Section 3 since they are not “Officers of the United States.”

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  422. 421. It’s not made up – the idea existed, it just wasn’t done.

    The Talmud lists that (formalizing with standard ceremony homosexual marriages) among the things the nations of the world have not done.

    (Others were persecuting the Jews too much – and selling human meat for food in the market.)

    We haven’t yet seen restaurants selling human meat. That still remains.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  423. The thing that George Kent has kept silent about was not about the laptop, but about the fact that the following was a lie):

    https://www.cfr.org/event/foreign-affairs-issue-launch-former-vice-president-joe-biden

    …I’ll give you one concrete example. I was—not I, but it just happened to be that was the assignment I got. I got all the good ones. And so I got Ukraine. And I remember going over, convincing our team, our leaders to—convincing that we should be providing for loan guarantees. And I went over, I guess, the 12th, 13th time to Kiev. And I was supposed to announce that there was another billion-dollar loan guarantee. And I had gotten a commitment from Poroshenko and from Yatsenyuk that they would take action against the state prosecutor. And they didn’t.

    So they said they had—they were walking out to a press conference. I said, nah, I’m not going to—or, we’re not going to give you the billion dollars. They said, you have no authority. You’re not the president. The president said—I said, call him. (Laughter.) I said, I’m telling you, you’re not getting the billion dollars. I said, you’re not getting the billion. I’m going to be leaving here in, I think it was about six hours. I looked at them and said: I’m leaving in six hours. If the prosecutor is not fired, you’re not getting the money. Well, son of a bitch. (Laughter.) He got fired. And they put in place someone who was solid at the time.

    This is a totally made up story. At first they placed the trip in March 2016 because the firing of the prosecutor could be connected to that month, but then when it was realized that Joe Biden hasn’t visited Ukraine in March, 2016 they placed that visit with the cancelled press conference in December, 2015.

    At about two minute, Senator ted Cruz begins quoting Joe Biden

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wO0NJ9OZnZ8

    The Chair attempts to save George Kent from answering the question, but relents and Kent simply says that that the prosecutor was not investigating Burisma (ghe idea that he was came from Putin’s agents)

    georeg Kent does NOT say that this whole tale that Joe Biden told, about a vice president with superpowers is flat out false.

    Other (35 year old) examples of Joe Biden lying:

    https://710wor.iheart.com/featured/mark-simone/content/2020-05-17-watch-joe-bidens-long-history-of-being-totally-dishonest (actually this clip is limited to things in 1987 but there were plenty later, like his getting arrested in South Africa because he wanted to visit Nelson Mandela in prison in 1977))

    The right wing does not realize that this Jan 23, 2018 Q&A excerpt is one of Biden’s big lies — one that Vladimir Putin (I think) attempted to use against Biden by getting the CFR video or audio to Giuliani and eventually Trump.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  424. https://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/annie/456517995

    Start at about 3 minutes. Warbucks and his friends eat a very special type of meat – they’re already dead, al adults, and their families are paid very well for their troubles

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  425. The current case before the SC seems like a case of compelled speech to me. I can see how if circumstances were different it might just be discrimination but it looks like speech much more clearly then the case of the bigoted baker. CO is out of line here.

    Time123 (dd8dcd)

  426. it is not for the General Welfare but for the “the King’s” personal use.

    But isn’t what is good for the King good for the peasants?

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  427. An argument that Presidents cannot be disqualified under Section 3 since they are not “Officers of the United States.”

    Yes, we’ve been around this before. Not only is there the obvious argument that this is parsed too finely and there is no sane reason why it would not pertain to the Prez, but also that those who were in those offices at the time would not be so charged (this tails into the “but this was just for the Civil War” argument).

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  428. 119. steveg (367163) — 12/3/2022 @ 10:38 am

    From what I read, the computer “fixer upper guy” puts a mechanics lien on the paperwork he has people sign before he cleans up all the viruses people like Hunter get on their computers.

    That Hunter wanted viruses cleaned up is a good guess based on limited information, but that’s not what happened. This shows you what is wrong with Occam’s Razor.

    Hunter Biden brought in three laptops none of which worked. They had probably gone out of commission, one by one. And they probably had virtually identical material on it. Hunter probably synched them with his iCloud account, using any laptops he could get as terminals. (that was the basis for the hacked accusation)

    One computer was completely destroyed and could not be salvaged.

    The second one needed an external keyboard and could work with it.

    Computer repair guy gave him a keyboard. Hunter was supposed to bring it back later (or maybe pay for it)

    The third one could not boot but the data) files could be salvaged. Hunter left the computer with him. It often happens that the most used files (the ones needed to boot) are damaged the most but everything else is OK.

    Computer repair guy took out the drive and connnected it used it as an external drive. He copied the files one by one to the server.

    On Hunter’s next visit (there were only two and both came near closing) he brought along a hard drive to which the files could be copied to.

    He never came back to pick up the drive – most likely because he had the files

    Eventually computer repair guy looked at the files. he was most scared by the pictures. It looked like it could include child pornography.

    The FBI eventually decided not so, probably because to prosecute someone for child pornography the pictures must be either:

    A) of a known person taken on a known date, with the person in the picture being younger than 18 years old at the time the picture was taken.

    OR

    B) characterized as child pornography – and to be so they needn’t be pictures of a real person but can be a computer generated image)

    OR maybe

    C) So many that you can assume it is intended as child pornography.

    Not the law, but in practice.

    Computer repair guy also noticed curious financial information on the drive.

    He tried to interest Republicans in Congress but could not.

    Eventually the FBI subpoenaed the drive.

    The ZFBI did not understand the drive was not bootable and had to contact him how to read the files.

    Meanwhile all this time the computer repair guy had a copy of all the files on his server.

    In 2020 he contacted Giuliani. Giuliani contacted Bannon, who came up with some unreasonable inferences, like Hunter being a bag man for Joe Biden or giving half his salary to his father, and also contacted the New York Post.

    CRG made and/or Giuliani a copy or copies of the files.

    The illegal things noted were:

    1) Hunter bought a gun , which necessitated him signing a statement that he did not use drugs, but the evidence was all over the laptop that he did.

    2) Tax matters.

    Joe Biden or somebody arranged for someone else to pay Hunter’s back taxes and for Hunter to make a lot of money as an artist.

    Other things are unclear.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  429. I mention all this because one of our tribalists seemed to think that it was illegtimate to wonder about defeated gubernatorial candidate Kari Lake’s odd hair style and late conversion to Christianity.

    Not illegimate, just hilariously ignorant and unself-aware.

    PS – I’d be grateful if someone who knows more than I do about such things would give their best guess at what Lake may be saying with that hair style.

    Jim Miller (f29931) — 12/5/2022 @ 8:52 am

    Someone who knows more than you already pointed it out, contra your bizarre fixations on her hair and her change in religious beliefs, and how it relates to her political journey. Dana, of course, had to stand up for you and inadvertently incriminated your own musings in the process.

    Like I said, get out of the house and spend some time around some real, actual women instead of marinating in your own pseudo-intellectualism.

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d)

  430. Computer belongs to the mechanic if it isn’t paid and claimed after a certain period of time.

    Yes.

    Since Hunter is into porn, I assume that the fixer upper had to clean up the mess.

    No he didn’t but he was somewhat scared to possess the files. He anyway has poor vision.

    One of the ways modern day pedophiles I think a mechanics lien would give the tech the rights to wipe and sell the computer, but also would give the tech rights to do what he/she chooses with the contents.

    That seems to be the basis he was operating under.

    Of course everything was subpoeaned, but the FBI didn’t understand that he still had a copy of the files (had to make them in order to recover the files from the damaged hard drive)

    The only person to blame here is Hunter, plus he’s dumb as a rock and exceeds Trump level irresponsible. My guess? He wanted his viruses removed, he wanted to keep emails and texts, but he also wanted to keep his precious porn stash of his personal videos.

    No viruses, but he was down to 0 functioning computers.

    But the main place he kept his files was online.

    Got stoned for several months, bouncing around, impregnating a stripper -you, know, the usual- and forgot what the hell he did with his computer.

    No, what happened was his father was in the process of moving him to California, and he didn’t need the files – because e had the second computer and he had the iCloud account.

    he never thought anyone would look at his files. And if his father hadn’t been running for president, nothing much would have happened.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  431. A quote got cut: A sentence goes:

    One of the ways modern day pedophiles get caught is that they send computers (or in the old days, film) and some in the tech community feel they have an obligation to wade into the cesspool and maybe find- oh I dunno- maybe photos and videos of Hunter with his underage niece?

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  432. @390 most actual republicans are done? Yeah if you discount populists which is 70% of the republican party as not being actual republicans. Every republican I talk to likes trump and I talk to more republicans then democrats where I live.

    asset (71732b)

  433. SF: Trump isn’t serious here about ignoring the constitution

    Kevin M: Actually he is.

    No, because he isn’t serious here period. (about any of this actually happening)

    I didn’t say he wasn’t serious about ignoring the constitution. But not here.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  434. 373. Kevin M (1ea396) — 12/5/2022 @ 9:01 am

    It would be WAY (tF) better to block him from running than to block him from taking office after winning the election.

    That’s what they are trying in New York now with an Assembly race.

    There’s a requirement, even in a year where there is redistricting that to be eligible for office someone must have been a resident of the same county in which the assembly district is located in for one year.

    https://www.ny1.com/nyc/all-boroughs/politics/2022/11/30/brooklyn-republican-lester-chang-assembly-vote-unseat-special-election

    Lester Change lived in Manhattan and voted there in November 2021. Now his wife had died and he moved back to his childhood home to take care of his mother, who has some dementia or something. He would have had to have changed his legal address between November 2, 2021 and November 8,. 2021 for everything to be legal.

    This issue first came up in September when the political club Asian Wave Alliance endorsed Chang over Abbate, who raised the issue. The club then called Chang back for a review.

    “We asked him ‘would you be eligible to be the assemblymember should you be elected?’” says the Club’s founder Yiatin Chu. “And he said yes. We didn’t ask him to show us any proof. We have to ask the question for him to affirm that, and he did.”

    According to documents obtained by NY1 News, Chang registered to vote at his Brooklyn address earlier this year, as alleged by his opponent.

    And his driver’s registration from the DMV shows that he still uses his old Manhattan address on his license.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  435. @407: Yet another way that McCain sealed his own doom. It turned out that the people did not care and further the press did not spend a lot of time telling them.

    Kevin M (1ea396) — 12/5/2022 @ 11:20 am

    His first mistake, like Reagan’s with the 1986 amnesty, was to assume that the Democrat(s) would act in good faith instead of ignoring anything that might limit their own political advantages.

    The de facto stance to take is to assume that they WON’T act in good faith, as they’ve amply demonstrated in these two significant instances, and require actual penalties for welshing on the deals. One of Boehner’s more intelligent acts as Speaker was to make sure deadlines for budgeting were put in to codified law during the 2011 funding negotiations, or sequestration would get triggered. Doing that prevented the Democrats from sashaying their way out of the agreement, and that was probably due to the fact that Harry Reid was acting like such a stubborn, dishonest jackass during the process that Boehner realized there was no way he’d stick to any gentleman’s agreement when it actually mattered.

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d)

  436. @421 Marriage came about as away for land owners and royalty to distribute their land to their aires. Peasants envious of the ceremonies decides to have ceremonies too.

    asset (71732b)

  437. I didn’t say he wasn’t serious about ignoring the constitution. But not here.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 12/5/2022 @ 12:56 pm

    Even if he was just running off at the mouth, I’d say the plain meaning of his words were pretty clear. It was certainly clear enough that his in-party support is now cratering, and he’s likely to be a footnote by the time 2024 rolls around.

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d)

  438. Kevin M @90:

    The potential that the laptop might have been hacked — without any evidence — is used for shutting down all mention of the story on Twitter.

    Plus the fact that if the U.S. government had been hacked – and something controversial about foreign policy discovered – and a story about what was found published in the New York Times — Twitter would not have tried to suppress the story and disabled the NYT’s account until the tweet was deleted.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  439. FWO, one can hope.

    Time123 (b4ca5d)

  440. An argument that Presidents cannot be disqualified under Section 3 since they are not “Officers of the United States.”

    Yes, we’ve been around this before. Not only is there the obvious argument that this is parsed too finely and there is no sane reason why it would not pertain to the Prez, but also that those who were in those offices at the time would not be so charged (this tails into the “but this was just for the Civil War” argument).

    Kevin M (1ea396) — 12/5/2022 @ 12:38 pm

    Chief Justice Roberts disagrees.

    There is a recent Supreme Court opinion discussing the scope of the Constitution’s “Officers of the United States”-language. In Free Enter. Fund v. Pub. Co. Accounting Oversight Bd. (2010), Chief Justice Roberts observed that “[t]he people do not vote for the ‘Officers of the United States.'” Rather, “officers of the United States” are appointed exclusively pursuant to Article II, Section 2 procedures. It follows that the President, who is an elected official, is not an “officer of the United States.”

    We will see if an attempt is made to disqualify Trump under Section 3.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  441. Michael Goodwin wrote the other day that there will not be one thing that destroys Trump’s prospects (paraphrase) but that he will melt like an “ice cube.”

    At any rate Herschel Walker no longer wants his public help. He was taking counsel and showing up with Senators Ted Cruz and Lindsey Graham.

    It wasn’t his meeting with Kanye West et al. It was Trump not saying he regrets it. (The total destruction of Kanye West’s reputation is recent.)

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  442. Mcconnel bought off by legacy media to support jcpa act to reinstitute censorship on twitter and the trumpsters. Will agree to support bill. (ace)

    asset (71732b)

  443. Betting markets heavily favor Warnock over Walker in Georgia runoff
    ……..
    The Democrat’s chances of winning the runoff were at 89.5 percent to Walker’s 10.5 percent as of Sunday afternoon, according to the tracker Election Betting Odds, which culls odds from other popular betting markets.
    ……
    PredictIt and Polymarket both show Warnock at 89 percent. Smarkets, another betting market used by Election Betting Odds, puts Warnock’s odds even higher — at 92.6 percent to Walker’s 8.3 percent.
    ……..
    Early voting in the runoff, which ended Friday, smashed records for turnout with more than 300,000 Georgia voters casting their ballots in a single day last week.
    ……..
    …….. 83 percent of likely voters who support Warnock said the main factor in their Senate vote was support for the Democrat — which tends to be a stronger indicator of motivation to vote.
    ……..

    Election Betting Odds now has Warnock at 90.6% and Walker at 9.4%.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  444. The big question is: Who gets to determine whether someone has engaged in insurrection?

    The Big Guy… like George III.

    Oh, and the current Big Guy who scored the kickbacked pieces of the action laundered through the kid he’s “proud of.” No, not the dead one he keeps talking to. The living one w/his grandkid he totally ignores

    Hunter Biden’s out-of-wedlock daughter left out of White House Christmas display

    President Biden and first lady Jill Biden hung Christmas stockings for six of their grandchildren at the White House but did not include their son Hunter’s illegitimate daughter. The decorated State Dining Room celebrated the “Gift of Family,” [what a stumblebumming hypocrite] the White House said, and the six stockings hanging over the fireplace were for Naomi, 27, Finnegan, 21, Maisy, 20, Natalie, 17, and Robert Hunter Biden II, 15, and little Beau, 1, according to the “Today” show.

    Hunter Biden’s 3-year-old daughter, Navy Jones Roberts — who was born out of wedlock to a stripper — was reportedly not included in the festive display. The family reportedly has not met the child. Hunter, 51, initially denied that he was the father of Navy because he said he had “no recollection” of meeting her mother, Arkansas native Lunden Alexis Roberts.

    “That’s how little connection I had with anyone. I was a mess, but a mess I’ve taken responsibility for,” he wrote of his drug-fueled sex “rampages” in his 2021 memoir “Beautiful Things.”

    https://nypost.com/2021/12/01/bidens-stocking-display-excludes-hunters-daughter-born-out-of-wedlock/

    Not too classy for Wilmington. Or Scranton. But SOP for low-life lunch bucket types and life w/t Carrington’s on Dynasty… and the mayor of Brandon Falls.

    DCSCA (3d9161)

  445. must have been a resident

    This means “where did he reside. Not where he was registered to vote. Not whether he updated his drivers license instead of waiting until it was renewed.

    So, did he move to the new location before November 8 (assuming that the one year is before the election, and not before taking office)?

    He says he did. Prove he did not, or move along.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  446. #435

    I get tired of figuring out wether Trump really means anything or whether he’s just playing with his phone while otherwise occupied. He said what he said. A dispirited group of shills is making the case that what he said wasn’t all that bad and Democrats doing and bla bla bla Hunter Biden. Trump is not denying anything or trying to walk anything back. He’s a Franco sort of guy who has no use for any stinkin Constitution that gets in his way.

    It’s the same stupid. If the GOP nominates that again, it will be more losing and more of the same stupid. If Republians really thought Democrats a clear and present danger to the country, they would stop anchoring themselves to this moron.

    Appalled (be5c65)

  447. We will see if an attempt is made to disqualify Trump under Section 3

    Again, your parser is working overtime. That the same language elsewhere is interpreted one way does not mean that the drafter’s intent was for that outcome, particularly when the result is ludicrous.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  448. We will see if an attempt is made to disqualify Trump under Section 3.

    The drafters of the new Electoral Count Act seem to disagree with Roberts.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  449. My 91-year-old mother just beat Covid. I’m so glad that the variants going around now are mild.

    norcal (862cdb)

  450. Election Betting Odds now has Warnock at 90.6% and Walker at 9.4%.

    This is the same betting market that had the GOP 69% favorites to take the Senate the day of the election.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  451. I know people are still dying from/with Covid, but my guess is these are the type of people whose existence is so precarious that a change from Daylight Savings Time back to Standard Time does them in.

    norcal (862cdb)

  452. My 91-year-old mother just beat Covid. I’m so glad that the variants going around now are mild

    I’m glad that we have both vaccines (and I bet she was fully vaxxed) and sold treatments (Paxlovid and the MABs, along with some older COPD/asthma drugs that seem effective).

    The only people I knew that died both died in the first month in 2020, back when all they did was put people on a ventilator and make them comfortable.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  453. @435: Particularly immunocompromised folks. AIDS patients, transplant patients, certain cancer patients. Elderly and impaired (e.g. COPD). Vaccines don’t help much if you don’t have an immune system. There are people who die from the actual flu.

    I was well vaxxed myself and COVID hit me like a ton of bricks, but after the first day it wasn’t so terrible. Still, that first day I was sicker than I’ve ever been.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  454. #451 Good to hear that, norcal. And I hope her recovery is complete.

    Jim Miller (f29931)

  455. The news from Georgia is grim:

    ……..
    ………(F)rom Warnock’s first-place finish in the first round of voting to scattered polling and temperature checks of Democratic and GOP operatives, Warnock heads into Election Day as at least a slight favorite to win a full six-year term.

    “I think a lot of Republicans are hoping we’ll be pleasantly surprised, but there aren’t a lot of indications out there to base that on,” said Jason Shepherd, former chair of the Cobb County GOP. “Just a lot of hope and faith in things unseen. It’s the Christmas season, after all.”
    ……..
    There’s been little polling of the runoff, but a CNN survey released Friday showed Warnock with a narrow lead over Walker among likely voters, 52 to 48 percent. Independent voters broke for Warnock, 61 to 36, according to the poll conducted by SSRS from Nov. 25-29.
    ……..
    In a brief interview with POLITICO on Saturday, Walker seemed to mistake which chamber of Congress he was running for and also appeared to think the outcome of his race would determine control of the Senate.

    “They’re not [less motivated] because they know right now that the House will be even so they don’t want to understand what is happening right now,” he said of voters. “You get the House, you get the committees. You get all the committees even, they just stall things within there. So if we keep a check on Joe Biden, we just going to keep a check on him.”
    ………
    ………(Warnock) has dominated in fundraising and in advertising dollars spent. His campaign and outside Democratic groups have spent more than double that of their Republican counterparts, according to the latest spending report from AdImpact. In just the final week, Warnock’s campaign has spent $7.6 million on advertising compared to the Walker campaign’s $3.65 million in ad buys.

    More than $30 million is being spent in the Atlanta media market alone by both parties in the final week, including Election Day, per AdImpact.
    ……..
    Gov. Brian Kemp, who romped to reelection in November even after clashing openly with Trump, got behind Walker early in the runoff. The Republican loaned his get-out-the-vote apparatus to Walker and cut an ad on his behalf that is still airing. But Kemp did not campaign with Walker the final weekend of the race.
    ……..
    The weather report also looks grim for Republicans: Rain is forecast across Georgia on Tuesday. The GOP is relying heavily on Election Day turnout — and already struggling to motivate voters to go to the polls for the second time in a month.
    ##########

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  456. #438 Here’s an article for you.

    Jim Miller (f29931)

  457. Who says I require anything? I asked a question. Answer it. Don’t answer it. It’s up to you.

    lurker (cd7cd4) — 12/4/2022 @ 10:44 pm

    If you asked a question, you certainly required an answer. So why did you need clarification for something that should have been plainly obvious?

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d) — 12/5/2022 @ 5:13 am

    No, again I did not require an answer. I have no authority here to require anything, and if I did I wouldn’t use it for that. My question requested an answer, and as I said earlier, what you believe obvious I found ambiguous. I asked because I was curious. On my planet we call that conversation. You seem to want a fight, not a conversation. That doesn’t interest me, so I’m bowing out.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  458. My question requested an answer, and as I said earlier, what you believe obvious I found ambiguous.

    No one else appears to have been confused by it. And that’s because there wasn’t any ambiguity in it at all. If you found it confusing, that’s not my problem.

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d)

  459. I haven’t been following the lurker / FWO conversation but this last exchange makes me almost curious enough to go back and try to figure out what they’re talking about.

    Time123 (8a6395)

  460. and I bet she was fully vaxxed

    Kevin M (1ea396) — 12/5/2022 @ 2:23 pm

    She was vaxxed in 2021, but I don’t believe she was boosted after that.

    norcal (862cdb)

  461. Arizona certifies 2022 election results amid threat of more GOP challenges

    Arizona officials certified the state’s vote canvass on Monday, officially declaring winners in the high-profile gubernatorial and Senate races, among other contests, as GOP figures vow to fight the election results in court.
    ……..
    ……..t Arizona Secretary of State Katie Hobbs (D), who is now governor-elect, Gov. Doug Ducey (R), state Attorney General Mark Brnovich (R) and Arizona Supreme Court Chief Justice Robert Brutinel still met to canvass last month’s election on Monday, a timeline mandated by state law.
    ……..
    The certification paves the way for automatic recounts to begin in three close races — attorney general, state superintendent and a state House seat near Phoenix — and officials signed certificates of election for the other contests.
    ……..
    (Kari) Lake and (attorney general candidate Abe) Hamadeh’s campaigns, as well as other Republicans, criticized Hobbs’s role in signing the certification paperwork on Monday, arguing she had a conflict of interest because she was a candidate in the gubernatorial race.

    Hobbs’s office pushed back by arguing the meeting was merely a ministerial act — counties handle and tabulate ballots themselves — and noting that Ducey and Brnovich, both Republicans, attended the meeting.
    ……..

    TrumpWorld not amused:

    Get used to it; there will never be an “Election” in the future…..2020 proved We The People mean nothing to the New World Order and Globalists. ……Under direct threat of political imprisonment to county officials if they did not certify. The person who made the threat was the same person who counted the votes and was running for governor. How can this happen in the USA? …….Hobbs and the rats know it’s damn near impossible to even delay an election result let alone reverse one. This thieving b**ch will govern like she won by a clear 20 point win. When she shoves the LBGT BS into the schools and throws the border open the people of AZ are going to wish they stormed the building when the Maricopa certified the vote. ……My whole life I heard the soap box, ballot box, cartridge box mantra, and in the end we submitted to the authoritarians and we’ll suffer the same multi-decade decline that they suffered in the Soviet Union and in present day China. Very sad end to a great Republic. ……. I’ve often wondered why a people would subject themselves to corrupt governments, like the East Germans, or so many Middle east civilians, etc. I way why don’t they rise up. Well, it’s damn near impossible. Yep, they are stealing our country and the populace is basically silent, like lambs to slaughter. …….They stole 2020 so they have no fear in stealing 2022 and 2024. …….Lock up Katie Hobbs and see if she’s still governor ……

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  462. The GOP is relying heavily on Election Day turnout

    Lincoln wept.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  463. TrumpWorld not amused:

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 12/5/2022 @ 4:29 pm

    That comes off as satire. If that person is serious, God help him.

    norcal (862cdb)

  464. this last exchange makes me almost curious enough

    Find the operative word in this phrase.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  465. Supreme Court Rejects Conspiracy Theory-Laden Case Against Dominion Voting Systems

    The U.S. Supreme Court on Monday morning declined to take up a case where a group of voters sued a private and prominent voting machine company under the statute that authorizes federal civil rights lawsuits to be filed against government agents and state actors.
    ………
    The underlying claims are based on a conspiracy theory that “hundreds of thousands of votes” were switched in the 2020 presidential election “as a result of the systemic and widespread exploitable vulnerabilities” in software used by Dominion’s voting systems. Moreover, the original lawsuit claims Dominion’s voting systems are “intentionally and purposefully designed with inherent errors to create systemic fraud and influence election results.”
    ……..
    A basic tenet of U.S. civil law, however, is that constitutional claims typically only apply to state action. In other words, a lawsuit alleging that a private actor violated the U.S. Constitution is likely to fail. For example, the right to free speech under the First Amendment is based on a command that the government, generally, cannot abridge speech. To continue the example: private companies, like social media companies, have no obligation to allow free speech.
    ……..
    Successively, at each level, federal courts dismissed (Kevin O’Rourke, et al. v. Dominion Voting Systems, et al.,) for lack of jurisdiction because the plaintiffs had no standing to sue. Their claims, each court said, were essentially just about how the government operates in general. Additionally, the courts said, the plaintiffs only alleged an abstract harm to voters, generally.
    ……..

    More:

    “The court’s refusal to take up this case is no surprise; the lower courts threw it out because the plaintiffs didn’t have standing, and, even if they did, their claims are frivolous,” said Steve Vladeck, CNN Supreme Court analyst and professor at the University of Texas School of Law.

    “The fact that no justice even asked Dominion or the other defendants to respond to the petition says everything that needs to be said about how seriously they took this appeal – which is to say, not at all,” Vladeck added.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  466. TrumpWorld not amused:

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 12/5/2022 @ 4:29 pm

    That comes off as satire. If that person is serious, God help him.

    norcal (862cdb) — 12/5/2022 @ 4:38 pm

    It’s multiple Trump true believers on Free Republic, and yes, they are serious.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  467. I haven’t been following the lurker / FWO conversation but this last exchange makes me almost curious enough to go back and try to figure out what they’re talking about.

    Time123 (8a6395) — 12/5/2022 @ 4:07 pm

    It’s not very interesting, but if you’re desperate to kill time, it’s comments 317, 329, 335, 338, 341, 345, 349, 459, and 450.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  468. Umm, that last one should be 460.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  469. @421 Marriage came about as away for land owners and royalty to distribute their land to their aires. Peasants envious of the ceremonies decides to have ceremonies too.

    No, asset. That’s the reason the Wilkes always married their cousins.

    nk (bb1548)

  470. R.I.P. Kirstie Alley

    Icy (7f954b)

  471. Iran Crisis Update December 4, 2022

    Western media inaccurately reported that the Iranian regime abolished its morality patrol on December 4. The regime has not made such a concession. Western outlets misinterpreted remarks from Prosecutor General Mohammad Javad Montazeri on December 3. Montazeri noted in response to a journalist’s question that security forces have reduced morality patrols in recent months—a statement that some Western media has mistakenly framed as confirmation that the regime abolished the patrols. Iranian state media later clarified that Montazeri was only acknowledging the reduced morality patrols rather than announcing an end to the program. No other Iranian official has indicated that the regime has ended the patrol.

    The regime could still offer limited concessions, such as relaxed veiling enforcement, to quell the ongoing protests. Montazeri stated on December 1 that Parliament and the Supreme Cultural Revolution Council will announce an opinion on the mandatory hijab law by December 16.

    Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei would likely view any such reform as temporary pragmatism to ensure regime survival. Khamenei has continually argued that the regime has not yet sufficiently ideologized the population, framing social indoctrination as the true solution to many of Iran’s problems. ……

    Thirty neighborhood youth groups announced the formation of an umbrella organization—the Neighborhood Youth Alliance—on December 4. The alliance stated that its objectives are ”to coordinate planning to advance the revolution to victory and also create the necessary infrastructure to manage the country’s affairs during the critical periods of the transition of power.” The alliance emphasized its support for a democratic government and universal human rights. The emergence of the Neighborhood Youth Alliance reflects the growing organization of parts of the protest movement and indicates the possible emergence of more centralized leadership.
    ………
    Deputy Interior Minister for Security Affairs Majid Mir Ahmadi tried to emphasize the economic consequences of the protests on December 4, possibly to fracture the protest movement……..Mir Ahmadi added that most protesters are employed and therefore not driven primarily by economic grievances. He also accused foreign enemies of stoking the protests to hurt the Iranian economy. The Interior Ministry may try to increasingly promote the narrative that the protests are not in the best interest of citizens with economic frustrations in order to divide the protest movement and reduce turnout.
    ……..

    Footnotes omitted.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  472. Russian Offensive Campaign Assessment, December 5, 2022
    ………
    Ukrainian forces likely conducted strikes on two Russian strategic airbases on December 5, inflicting light damage while demonstrating Ukraine’s ability to strike Russian rear areas and possibly disrupt Russia’s campaign of strikes against Ukrainian infrastructure. The Russian Ministry of Defense and several milbloggers reported that Ukrainian forces used UAVs to strike the Engels-2 airbase in Saratov Oblast (approximately 315 miles from Ukrainian territory) and the Dyagilevo Air Base in Ryazan Oblast (approximately 285 miles from Ukrainian territory).

    Both airbases house elements of Russia’s strategic bomber fleet, which Russia has employed to strike Ukraine throughout the war. Ukrainian Presidential Advisor Mikhail Podolyak tweeted that the Kremlin should have known that “if something is launched into other countries’ airspace, sooner or later unknown flying objects will return to departure point.” …… Russian sources claimed that a Ukrainian drone struck aircraft at the Engels-2 Airbase in Saratov Oblast, Russia, damaging strategic bombers and missile carriers. Russian sources also claimed that a Ukrainian drone destroyed a Russian fuel truck at the Dyagilevo Air Base in Ryazan Oblast, Russia……..

    Anger over the Russian military’s inability to prevent the Ukrainian strikes on Russian strategic airbases over 280 miles from Ukrainian positions outweighed praise for the latest round of strikes against Ukraine within the Russian milblogger community.
    …….Several prominent Russian milbloggers claimed that Ukrainian sabotage and reconnaissance groups must have launched the strike against the Engels-2 air base from inside Russian territory, asserting either that Ukrainian sabotage and reconnaissance groups are active inside Russia or – if the UAVs were launched from Ukrainian territory – that Moscow is under threat from Ukrainian territory.
    ……….

    Sad!

    Bolding in original. Footnotes omitted. Paragraph breaks added.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  473. Kevin M (1ea396) — 12/4/2022 @ 6:29 pm

    Let’s say the Constitution said there would be a national system of horse stables*.

    …this may sound silly, but consider the post office.

    The constitution doesn’t require a post office. It permits it. About the only thing the constitution requires is that there bea census of population every te years, which s it worked out, was in every year ending in a zero. (and presidential elections are in years divisble by four – as it worked out,

    Sammy Finkelman (e5d38f)

  474. 474. Salami tactics against Russia, or boiling the frog.

    Sammy Finkelman (e5d38f)

  475. 473. Are Iran and China discussing how to prevent revolutions?

    Sammy Finkelman (e5d38f)

  476. https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2022/12/the-daily-chart-sweden-after-all.php

    Sweden made the right call. Fear was not the answer, but it was a great way to control the public.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  477. Michael Avenatti sentenced to 14 years in prison for stealing millions of dollars from clients

    Disgraced attorney Michael Avenatti was sentenced Monday to 14 years in prison and ordered to pay nearly $11 million in restitution for embezzling millions of dollars from four of his clients and obstruction.

    Avenatti pleaded guilty earlier this year to four counts of wire fraud for each client he stole from and one count of endeavoring to obstruct the administration of the Internal Revenue Code. Prosecutors said he obstructed the IRS’ effort to collect $5 million in unpaid payroll taxes for Tully’s Coffee.

    The sentence handed down by federal district Judge James Selna will begin after Avenatti completes a five-year prison term he’s currently serving after being convicted in two separate trials in New York.

    another NeverTrumper bites the dust

    Sad!

    JF (6b7854)

  478. Trump denies he suggested ‘termination’ of Constitution, without deleting post
    ……..
    “The Fake News is actually trying to convince the American People that I said I wanted to ‘terminate’ the Constitution. This is simply more DISINFORMATION & LIES,” Trump said on Monday on his own social media platform, Truth Social.

    The post seemed to be a complete denial of his post from Saturday, which remained online as of Monday afternoon: “A Massive Fraud of this type and magnitude allows for the termination of all rules, regulations, and articles, even those found in the Constitution,” Trump wrote over the weekend, once again falsely asserting that there was widespread fraud in the 2020 election.
    ………

    Maybe Trump should listen to this. Or will they skip certain sections?

    Rip Murdock (4081a4)

  479. @471 marriage came over 6,000 years ago and evolved from the landed nobility to assign land to their airs not dog patch arkansas inbreeding.

    asset (c437bb)

  480. I looked up history of marriage and marriage ceremonies. It is somewhat convoluted ;but the gist of it is when we went from hunter gathers to farmers it brought conflict between groups which marriage was an alliance between clans and other family groups to settle territorial disputes. Had nothing to do with love like romeo and juliette and you remember how that turned out. Than ceremonies by landed nobility and chiefs followed by envious lower classes.

    asset (c437bb)

  481. Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei would likely view any such reform as temporary pragmatism to ensure regime survival. Khamenei has continually argued that the regime has not yet sufficiently ideologized the population, framing social indoctrination as the true solution to many of Iran’s problems. …

    “New Iranian Man”

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  482. Trump denies he suggested ‘termination’ of Constitution, without deleting post

    Trump is known for denying things after being shown video of him saying it a day earlier.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  483. And like I said, asset, that only explains in-breeding. But not criminal penalties for exogamy in 20th century America.

    And I have also read the Communist Manifesto. And, as I recall, Lenin purged the wives-in-common comrades early-on after the Revolution.

    nk (b9d6a2)

  484. And I am also aware that the Pharaohs married their sisters (and aunts). And that Pericles’s first wife was his cousin and that Athens needed to pass a special law to make his son from his non-Athenian second wife an Athenian citizen.

    But in 20th century America, the situation was the obverse, and Rudi Giuliani needed a special dispensation from the Church to marry his second cousin.

    nk (b9d6a2)

  485. For those interested in excess mortality in Nordic nations during the COVID epidemic, here’s a paper that summarizes a variety of studies.

    As one would expect, most of studies show that Sweden did significantly worse than Denmark, Finland, Iceland, and Norway.

    In the paper, the authors explain some of the problems in making these estimates and why some studies have gotten it wrong.

    (As always, when you are making these comparisons, you should start with cases and deaths per capita. This site has an easy to use table. I should add that the numbers for some nations — Russia, for example — are known to be serious underestimates. But, as far as I know, the numbers from nations like the US, Canada, Japan, and western Europe are reasonably accurate.)

    Jim Miller (f29931)

  486. How long has pair bonding (or, if you prefer another name for pair bonding, marriage) existed?

    In the human line, probably about 2 million years:

    Homo erectus (/ˌhoʊmoʊ əˈrɛktəs/; meaning “upright man”) is an extinct species of archaic human from the Pleistocene, with its earliest occurrence about 2 million years ago.[2] Several human species, such as H. heidelbergensis and H. antecessor — with the former generally considered to have been the ancestor to Neanderthals, Denisovans, and modern humans — appear to have evolved from H. erectus.[3] Its specimens are among the first recognizable members of the genus Homo. H. erectus was the first human ancestor to spread throughout Eurasia, with a continental range extending from the Iberian Peninsula to Java.
    . . .
    H. erectus males and females may have been roughly the same size as each other (i.e. exhibited reduced sexual dimorphism), which could indicate monogamy in line with general trends exhibited in primates.

    There is good reason to think that pair bonding(marriage) is one of the biggest reasons for the success of these ancestors of ours.

    Most modern birds are monogamous, and form pair bonds (marriages). Since there have been birds for about 160 million years, it is likely that pair bonds (marriages) have existed at least that long, and probably much longer.

    Jim Miller (f29931)

  487. Where our dear comrade, asset, goes wrong is that he forgets that in order for children to inherit lands and titles from their parents they first need to be 1) conceived, 2) born, and 3) outlive their parents. That third one takes a lot of doing on the part of the parents.

    nk (b9d6a2)

  488. Jim,

    I posted the link that shows Sweden did better. Thanks for the dismissal.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  489. https://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2022/12/is-expressing-support-for-dobbs-a-firing-offense-in-biglaw.html

    Cult like attitudes from Big Law. They clearly don’t believe that everyone deserves a lawyer.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  490. https://www.nationalreview.com/news/gorsuch-accuses-colorado-of-forcing-christian-baker-to-undergo-reeducation-program/

    The leftists running the State of Colorado’s “discrimination enforcement” are no different than the totalitarian Chinese government when it comes to indoctrination to stamp out dissenting thoughts.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  491. In the paper, the authors explain some of the problems in making these estimates and why some OTHER studies have gotten it wrong.

    As you expect they would.

    Rephrased, this is “Well, this is very different from all those other studies, but they all got it wrong because ….”

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  492. More than 70% of voters in poll want Biden to release secret JFK assassination records
    ………
    About 16,000 of the most closely guarded government secrets into the assassination nearly 60 years ago still remain hidden — including 44 records that would shed light on a covert Cuba-related CIA program that involved Lee Harvey Oswald less than four months before he shot President John F. Kennedy, according to Jefferson Morley, vice president of the nonpartisan Mary Ferrell Foundation, the nation’s largest online source of JFK assassination records. The group sued Biden in October to disclose the records.

    The federal suit came one year after Biden issued a memo delaying the documents’ release until this month — unless federal agencies persuaded him to give them even more time. Biden’s predecessor, Donald Trump, first postponed the disclosure in 2017, when the records were supposed to be fully released under the President John F. Kennedy Assassination Records Collection Act of 1992. Congress passed it unanimously in response to Oliver Stone’s Oscar-nominated film “JFK.”
    ………
    Half of voters believe the assassination involved multiple conspirators while 38 percent said Oswald was the lone gunman, the poll showed. It also showed regional variations, with Northeastern voters least likely to believe that Oswald acted with others while Southwestern voters believed in other conspirators by double-digit margins.
    ……….
    In Gallup’s polling, support for the lone gunman theory was highest in the mid-1960s, at 36 percent, while 50 percent said others were involved. For years afterward, support for the lone gunman theory bottomed out in the low double digits while belief in other conspirators ranged from 70 percent to 80 percent. The margins then began to tighten in the early 2000s.

    Of those who believe Oswald was part of a conspiracy, (the poll conducted Democratic pollster Fernand Amandi, a JFK assassination history buff with the Miami-based consulting firm of Bendixen & Amandi International) showed, 31 percent believe the CIA was involved, 13 percent the mafia, 7 percent the Cuban government, and 6 percent the Soviet Union.

    The CIA has played a central role in covering up information about the JFK assassination over the years.
    ……..

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  493. Voter Fraud in Georgia:

    Conservative North Georgia talk show host Brian K. Pritchard, a candidate for the state House who rails against election fraud, allegedly voted illegally nine times while serving a felony sentence in a $33,000 forgery and theft case, state officials say.

    The Georgia attorney general’s office wrote Thursday that Pritchard broke state law each time he voted before his sentence was completed, according to a filing with the Office of State Administrative Hearings. State law prohibits felons from voting.

    Pritchard, the head of FetchYourNews.com, qualified Monday to run in a special election for the state House seat previously held by Speaker David Ralston, who died last month. He will face Ralston’s widow, Sheree Ralston. Both candidates are Republicans from the Blue Ridge area in northeast Georgia.

    “I’ve not done anything wrong here,” Pritchard said Monday, asserting that his sentence ended long ago and his rights had been restored. “I guess if you’re apprehending public enemy No. 1, here I am.”
    ………
    Pritchard pleaded guilty in 1996 to three felonies, including two counts of forgery and one count of theft by failure to make a required disposition of funds, according to court records from Allegheny County, Pennsylvania.
    ………
    After Pritchard registered to vote in Georgia in 2008, he voted in nine elections before his felony probation sentence ended in 2011, according to the attorney general’s office.

    Pritchard has said on his show that the 2020 presidential election was “stolen,” though recounts, court cases and investigations have repeatedly debunked those claims. He has criticized Republican Gov. Brian Kemp and Republican Attorney General Chris Carr for being “complicit” in Democrat Joe Biden’s victory in Georgia.

    “I do not believe that 81 million people voted for this guy,” Pritchard said on his show in April. “This is what they did to us, America.”

    Pritchard’s attorney told the State Election Board last year that he was unaware he was considered a felon when he registered and voted in Georgia. …….
    ………

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  494. Jim, the article on the Nordic counties is interesting, thank you for sharing. There are a lot of factors in the covid response and looking at populations that similar is a useful tool.

    NJRob, Jim’s article provides some insite into questions not addressed by the link you provided. You should take a look at it if you’re interested in the subject.

    Time123 (3c4cd3)

  495. 50 years ago tonight- half-past-midnight, 12/7/72, Eastern time:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfDDwEE7uPU

    Back in the day, when America was truly great– and U.S. decline accelerated w/Delaware’s election of an empty suit named Joe Biden to the U.S. Senate just a month earlier.

    Recall this awesome sight vividly; in later years, was fortunate enough to have met the late Gene Cernan several times and do a radio program with him. Apollo 17, the last of the manned Apollo moon landings, lifted off at 12:33 a.m., EST, on December 7, 1972 from Florida’s Kennedy Space Center. Intended for a 12/6 launch but delayed slightly due to a computer glitch, the first and only night launch of a 36 story tall Saturn V was a spectacularly brilliant sight seen hundreds of miles around. And the subsequent television imagery from their lunar landing site, Taurus–Littrow, was crisp and clear for the technology of the era. Of the three crew, Cernan and Evan have left us- only astronaut/geologist Jack Schmitt, who is 87 now, remains to share the experience firsthand. Take a few minutes and watch the way it was…

    “Bring back Walter Cronkite.” – Elon Musk

    DCSCA (96de27)

  496. 31 percent believe the CIA was involved, 13 percent the mafia, 7 percent the Cuban government, and 6 percent the Soviet Union.

    The CIA has played a central role in covering up information about the JFK assassination over the years.
    ……..

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 12/6/2022 @ 9:18 am

    To the extent that the glowies MIGHT have been involved, it most likely would have been due to JFK blocking them on one of their misadventures, and it’s more likely in that instance that it would have been rogue actors that were disappeared by the agency later on since their names would have been masked anyway.

    The mafia wasn’t sophisticated enough to pull off that kind of operation and planning, and even with RFK making their lives miserable, the heads of the Five Families would be well aware that killing JFK would bring down nuclear-level heat.

    The Cuban and Soviet governments were not stupid enough to a blatant act of war like that, especially following a relative cooling-off period after the Cuban Missile Crisis and efforts to keep something like that from happening again.

    The most likely scenario is that Oswald was being pulled between Soviet agents and the CIA or FBI after he returned to the US, eventually got abandoned because both sides realized he was too dumb and unstable to be a reliable asset, and conducted a lone wolf attack out of anger and frustration. I think at this point, the man’s been dead for nearly 50 years, an actual law was passed to open the files, and the American people deserve to know what’s in them regardless, so that hopefully a lot of these speculations can be settled. If Biden won’t do it, the next President really just needs to tell the glowies that he’s pulling rank and they can just deal with it.

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d)

  497. My link looks at excess deaths, too, Rip and Time. I think Rip’s report is basically a critique of a report by Wang et al. I can’t speak to that, but my Washington Monthly link deals with conclusions by a Kaiser Family Foundation report on Nordic excess deaths.

    Like the other papers/reports, it concludes that excess deaths is the best way to analyze whether a country is successful in dealing with Covid. It also found that Sweden fared no worse than other Nordic countries with less economic and personal restrictions.

    DRJ (716c76)

  498. After reading way too much about the JFK assassination…including the numerous investigations after the Warren Commission and the cottage-industry of conspiracy-theory books, I think the most reasonable conclusion is that Oswald did it alone. I tend to agree with FWO that IF there were yet-to-be-revealed contacts between Oswald and either US or Soviet intelligence…which I tend to doubt….that neither group would want to work with someone as unexceptional…and unstable…as Oswald. Oswald had been separated from his Russian wife Marina….and I think that ultimately had more of a motivation toward further instability than some complex conspiracy involving Russians, Cubans, Mafia, or rogue elements of our government. I just don’t believe that intricate conspiracies can remain hidden for a year let alone 60.

    I think Oswald had illusions of grandeur and felt that he was destined to be important. It’s interesting that there is evidence that shows that he attempted to assassinate a retire general (Edwin Walker) in Dallas earlier in 1963. Marina’s testimony on the matter is compelling, though she comes across as somewhat easily manipulated. Also, Oswald’s later shooting of Officer Tippit….and his pulling of the gun at the theater where he was arrested… further cements in my mind that not only wasn’t he a patsy, but evidence of clear guilt. I understand that it’s just hard to accept that Jack Ruby would emerge…conveniently…to avenge the murder. But the circumstances there are pretty clear that his being in that spot were more coincidental than carefully planned. If there wasn’t a delay to get a jacket or Ruby stopping to wire a stripper some money, he just wouldn’t have had the opportunity.

    Anyways I chuckle….the JFK “mystery” has always been more about focusing on finding a big explanation for a big historical event then it was/is about looking at the evidence. Heck even the House Select Committee got caught up seeing what they wanted to see. People love drama…but sometimes it’s just a nut seeking fame…..

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  499. #502 (with a nod to 499’s grumbling about the good old days):

    We want very hard to see decline. We want very hard to ascribe blame to giant malefactors of great wealth gigantic twisted theories like they have in the movies. We want to make sense of the profound senselessness of existence. Generally, religion helps with chaos. If you don’t have that, then conspiracy theries often will do.

    Appalled (5fd992)

  500. More than 70% of voters in poll want Biden to release secret JFK assassination records

    It’s only three words: “Johnson did it.”

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  501. It is really interesting to watch the recorded coverage of the JFK event. Both CBS and NBC realized they should be recording their news coverage, and these recordings are variously available on DVD and the torrent-world (or so I’m told).

    Not only is the technical level of those news departments WAY primitive (at one point two phones hare held together to get a report on the air), but there are several bits of prescient commentary.

    I particularly liked the late-in-the-day commentary by David Brinkley (no fool he), who warned that there might be those who would use the event to stampede people into some response (my read: invading Cuba) and that folks should resist such pressure.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  502. Disgraced republican congressman david rivera arrested for money laundering and acting as a foreign agent for several latin american countries including venezuela.

    asset (15b2e6)

  503. Conservative North Georgia talk show host Brian K. Pritchard, a candidate for the state House who rails against election fraud, allegedly voted illegally nine times while serving a felony sentence in a $33,000 forgery and theft case, state officials say.

    After the jump™

    After Pritchard registered to vote in Georgia in 2008, he voted in nine elections before his felony probation sentence ended in 2011, according to the attorney general’s office.

    I’m sure they never intended that implication in the opening paragraph. Yes, I am.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  504. The Florida defense is “the shouldn’t have put me on the voter rolls if it was illegal for me to vote.” At least that’s the defense for Democrat felons. Is it a crime if unknowing?

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  505. acting as a foreign agent for several latin american countries including venezuela.

    Half the Democrat Caucus does that now.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  506. I particularly liked the late-in-the-day commentary by David Brinkley (no fool he), who warned that there might be those who would use the event to stampede people into some response (my read: invading Cuba) and that folks should resist such pressure.

    Kevin M (1ea396) — 12/6/2022 @ 12:25 pm

    Boy, that sentiment has sure gone out the window the last 20-odd years.

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d)

  507. @489 Communist manifesto? Comrade? Communism was an economic system that was actually worse then laissze faire capitalism when nobody thought that was possible a hundred years ago. Even though capitalism has killed far more people then communism and keeps on killing to this day. As I have said before I am a capitalist wage slave master I own my small business though I have no capitalist wage slaves and I am one of the few philosophers who practice their philosophers on the street non exploitive capitalism.

    asset (15b2e6)

  508. @496 Oswald did it alone. I still remember the smirk on his face when asked if he shot the president. So release every thing.

    asset (15b2e6)

  509. After reading way too much about the JFK assassination…including the numerous investigations after the Warren Commission and the cottage-industry of conspiracy-theory books, I think the most reasonable conclusion is that Oswald did it alone.

    Occam’s Razor.

    April 10, 1963: Oswald tried to shoot General Walker.

    DCSCA (80a768)

  510. I think the most reasonable conclusion is that Oswald did it alone.

    The hardest thing to get past is is remarkable marksmanship with a bolt action rifle and a 4x scope at a distance of 250 feet. That he put two rounds into Kennedy, and 3 into the moving car in a very short period of time is hard to believe.

    They say it was 6 seconds between the 2 shots that hit Kennedy, which is perhaps possible, but Connolly and Kennedy appear to have been struck 2 seconds apart which cannot be done with Oswald’s rife, even if you don’t bother aiming. So, they decided that one bullet hit both of them and that the visible reactions were occluded by that damn sign in the Zapruder film. The “magic” bullet, courtesy of Arlen Spector.

    Were it not for this miraculous piece of shooting it would be easier to believe.

    There is also the claim by Oswald that he was a patsy, and his murder by Ruby was an amazing act of police incompetence, if nothing else.

    —————-

    The murder of Ninoy Aquino as he was escorted off a plane in Manila, allegedly by a gunman who was immediately killed by security agents, seems a complete ripoff of the JFK killing. Of course, with Aquino no one believed the story. Marcos would not have been this stupid, but Imelda sure was.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  511. What happened a lot of conspiracies floating around. Many were angry with the kennadys and pseudo conspiracies that weren’t very serious floating around when Oswald walked into the texas school book depository and did it. The half baked conspiracies then paniced to cover up what they were doing. see jim garrison media grand stand.

    asset (15b2e6)

  512. If anything, the reaction to JFK’s murder shows the neatest was to defeat even the most reasonable alternate narrative: create a dozen other narratives, each nuttier than the last, so that anything other than the official version is treated as deranged.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  513. But wait, that’s not what I came here to talks about.

    NO EGGS. NONE. At least not at a Kroger store.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  514. 516, meet 515

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  515. @514. Not really. Oswald joined the United States Marines Corps in October 1956 after dropping out of high school. He was designated a sharpshooter after obtaining a shooting score of 212, but was demoted to marksman in 1959 with a score of 191. He knew how to handle a rifle -and his target was moving away at a slow speed at slight incline, not laterally.

    DCSCA (80a768)

  516. @517. No kidding. My trip to Ralph’s [Kroger here] yesterday was wretched; empty shelves, more price hikes over last week; canned goods like chili and soups simply unaffordable anymore– and you can see it on the faces of the elderly fixed income shoppers, too… Land ‘O’Lakes butter- $8.75/lb.,.. $6 Red Baron frozen pizza… Kroger brand coffee – $10/can. It was $5.88 in July. And lots and lots of leftover high priced frozen turkeys in the bin- unsold due to the costs of the bird and extras… But hey.

    Joey has been getting a free lunch on the taxpayers since 1972.

    Such a bum.

    DCSCA (80a768)

  517. Let me speak of my odd Kroger problem:

    I can’t ever find shredded carrots. Never. I don’t get it.

    Appalled (5fd992)

  518. I’ve been to the building in Dallas from which Oswald shot JFK, and I looked out the window. It wasn’t a hard shot to an experienced shooter.

    norcal (862cdb)

  519. @514, Kevin, the 2-seconds between shots is based on a flawed notion. What we know for sure is that Kennedy is violently reacting to a gun shot to the throat at Zapruder frame 225. Connolly is turning and reacting as well, being struck by the same bullet. About 4.9sec later at Zapruder frame 313, we see the fatal head shot. The third shot is somewhat of a mystery as there is no perfect video evidence to place it definitively. The supposition is that it missed, with a fragment of concrete curb hitting a pedestrian James Tague. Most (assassination nerds) put the first shot at Zapruder 160, which would put the three shots in a window of about 8.6sec. However, this supposes that the first shot had to have been fired when Zapruder was shooting. If instead it was shot just prior to Z133 then you have a shot interval around 11.2sec, with greater time between the first and second shots which better correlates with witness testimony. There were obstacles that could explain why Oswald could have missed such a closer shot, but then did much better when he hit from 190ft and 265ft, respectively. So, shot – wait 6.3sec – shot – wait 4.9sec – shot. In my discussions…with a x4 scope….does not require a competition-caliber shooter to pull off. Conspiracists need to compress that window to create the need for a second shooter….and a conspiracy. I like the simpler solution.

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74)

  520. Still wondering about Oswald, eh… let’s throw another log or two on the conspiracy bonfire; as tomorrow is December 7 in Hawaii, FDR knew Pearl Harbor was going to be attacked and let it happen… and as today marks the 50th anniversary of the Apollo 17 launch– the moon landings were faked.

    Now buy some marshmallows– if you can find them– at Kroger. 😉

    DCSCA (72927b)

  521. Hey everyone I thought only communist venezuela and cuba were only ones with empty shelves not CAPITALIST america! I can’t find manythings I want either in walmart or kroger. Supposedly this is why the workers didn’t get paid sick leave to prevent this! Biden and corporate democrats. This was the attack on AOC when she first got elected Venezuala!

    asset (15b2e6)

  522. @524. The physics and science have this closed. Shot 1 missed; ricocheted, it is now suspected, off a stop light stanchion [no longer there] and hit a curb peppering a citizen drawing some blood; shot 2 pass through JFK’s throat, raising his hands nicking a nerve bundle, tumbled into the governor’s back, through his chest and into his wrist; shot 3 hit JFK in the back of his head on the right side, fragmented, throwing him slightly forward and back as his cranium disintegrated, and, given his back brace leaving him to slump to the left. End of story.

    DCSCA (72927b)

  523. Pop culture factoid:

    What does Seinfeld and the movie JFK have in common?

    Wayne Knight, who played Numa Bertel, an assistant to Jim Garrison in JFK and Newman in Seinfeld. In both instances he was used in the recreation of the assassination and the “second spitter”.

    Rip Murdock (4081a4)

  524. Conspiracists need to compress that window to create the need for a second shooter….and a conspiracy. I like the simpler solution.

    The only way that it wasn’t Oswald is if it was really inconvenient for the government to say who did it. Either because it would start a war with someone we could lose to, or because it came from inside our government.

    If it had been the Mafia, or Castro, or similar, the US government would have come down on them like a megaton of bricks. And I cannot believe that Russia would be so stupid; it’s stupider than Communism.

    So eliminating all foreign conspirators, we have maybe two or three domestic possibilities: LBJ, Hoover, or the CIA, and I discount the latter as they would have suffered an incredible rash of traffic accidents and heart attacks. I discount Hoover because he didn’t have the balls and had too many enemies already. They would have suicided him and burned his blackmail stash.

    So, LBJ or Oswald? The country would have shattered in the 60’s had it been LBJ and people found out. Presidents aren’t supposed to do things like that, so that’s the one thing that would have been covered up.

    I wonder what those records reveal.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  525. AJ, yes. I know all the ways in which those 3 shots are explained. That thrice-damned sign! None of them are completely satisfactory, and even the Grassy Knoll thing has huge problems.

    I saw Jack Ruby kill Oswald live, and even at my young age, it seemed like a set-up.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  526. Kevin,

    Have you read Vincent Bugliosi’s tome about the JFK assassination? I’m sure he deals with all of your doubts.

    norcal (862cdb)

  527. Case Closed by Gerald Posner is good read

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74)

  528. I saw Jack Ruby kill Oswald live, and even at my young age, it seemed like a set-up.

    As did I. NBC caught it live- and our family back story around it, detailed on another thread long ago– remains a treasured memory. It looked like what it was: an impulsive killing- and Oswald’s last words— “Awwwgh, sunnaofabitch!…” Words often lost in replays and dupes…

    DCSCA (fba27d)

  529. Pop culture factoid:

    What does Seinfeld and the movie JFK have in common?

    Wayne Knight, who played Numa Bertel, an assistant to Jim Garrison in JFK and Newman in Seinfeld. In both instances he was used in the recreation of the assassination and the “second spitter”.

    Rip Murdock (4081a4) — 12/6/2022 @ 1:58 pm

    That’s just the tip of the iceberg. The question that plagues me is, what were the Seinfeld writers — “writers” lol, CIA plants more like it — trying to tell us when the guy who stole Jerry’s car threw JFK’s golf clubs at Wayne Knight’s mail truck? Moreover, who was the car thief? It was Brad Garrett, Ray Romano’s TV brother. And who was their TV dad? Peter Boyle, the cabbie who gave DeNiro (seemingly?) incoherent advice in Taxi Driver before DeNiro set off on an ill-conceived plan to assassinate a candidate for President of the United States. Coincidence? You tell me. I think not.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  530. I’ve been to the building in Dallas from which Oswald shot JFK, and I looked out the window. It wasn’t a hard shot to an experienced shooter.

    Yep. W/a scoped rifle, no less. An old Polaroid Swinger camera commercial always brought Oswald to mind; their advertising tag line: “Aim. Focus. Shoot.”

    DCSCA (fba27d)

  531. Notes: Iran has actually disbanded or stopped the work of its morality police, although perhaps somebody important wanted to. (protesters did not accept that anyway)

    Chinese former top leader Jiang Jemin had leukemia. A slowdown in aging would at most delay the onset of the disease and slow its progress, which maybe happened. Can’t say anything about recent medical decisions, although they may have been interfered with by Xi Jinping. A death of an old leader creates an oppportunity for anti-regime eventsm=-, anyway. He lost all his power a few years ago – or was that only complete in October?

    The street signs on Urumqi Road in Shanghai were removed the day after the first protest. They identified with the anti-Covid restrictions being put upon the people in Urumqi, Xinjiang, because the government of China had been careful not to distinguish Uyghurs from others, as part of its propaganda,so they felt it could happen to them..

    Sammy Finkelman (6f561d)

  532. 525. DCSCA (72927b) — 12/6/2022 @ 1:43 pm

    as tomorrow is December 7 in Hawaii, FDR knew Pearl Harbor was going to be attacked and let it happen…

    No, but J Edgar Hoover did, or should have.

    He was told by the British Double Cross Agent XX Committee TRICYCLE (Dusko Popov) the original model for James Bond (Ian Fleming saw him later in Lisbon) that, based on a questionaire he was given by the Germans, the Japanese were planning to attack Pearl Harbor. In a personal meeting. Hoover threatened him with prosecution under the Mann Act for taking a girl with him to Hawaii. Popov wanted to supply German intelligence with vetted information. Hoover was too scared to do so properly.

    Later Hoover published a false version of how microdots were discovered (Popov really told the FBI about it beforehand) in the Reader’s Digest in 1946 and the story in the 1957 book “The FBI story” isn’t accurate either.

    As late as 1982 and 1983, people were still defending Hoover’s handling of the Pearl Harbor information.

    https://www.jstor.org/stable/1856917#metadata_info_tab_contents

    JOURNAL ARTICLE
    Pearl Harbor, Microdots, and J. Edgar Hoover
    John F. Bratzel and Leslie B. Rout, Jr.
    The American Historical Review
    The American Historical Review
    Vol. 87, No. 5 (Dec., 1982), pp. 1342-1351 (10 pages)

    This brought a response:

    https://academic.oup.com/ahr/article-abstract/88/4/954/113904?redirectedFrom=fulltext

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  533. Kevin M (1ea396) — 12/6/2022 @ 2:54 pm

    So eliminating all foreign conspirators, we have maybe two or three domestic possibilities: LBJ, Hoover, or the CIA, and I discount the latter as they would have suffered an incredible rash of traffic accidents and heart attacks. I discount Hoover because he didn’t have the balls and had too many enemies already. They would have suicided him and burned his blackmail stash.

    So, LBJ or Oswald?

    Not LBJ. Eugene Locke, a Dallas lawyer, who was the Chairman of the Executive Committee of the Texas Democratic Party, who was connected to the oil business – he had petroleum investments.

    Locke may have been acting partially as someone else’s agent, but he had a personal motive for replacing the Attorney General of the United States, not to mention personal ambitions.

    Locke had stolen Texas for the Democratic ticket in 1960 and so boasted of his connection to LBJ that he acquired the nickname Lyndon Jr.

    But he didn’t dare broach this to LBJ. LBJ was no murderer, and even if he was, Locke couldn’t be sure and there was no need to take LBJ into his confidence. Why take the risk?

    The proof that Johnson couldn’t have known is that when Johnson argued forcefully with Kennedy to have Yarborough and not Connally ride in the same car with Kennedy, he gave up. If he had known that someone was going to try to shoot Kennedy, he wouldn’t have.

    Information about that argument is still secret.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/02/arts/jacqueline-kennedy-notes-library-dispute.html

    Meanwhile, the tapes of Jacqueline Kennedy’s interviews for William Manchester’s book “The Death of the President,” the publication of which she sued to halt, are sealed until 2067.

    It’s not even that well know, that there was an argument.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  534. Important Note: For this conspiracy to be true, Governor Connally would have had to play a key role in the conspiracy: Changing the parade route so that it would pass by the Texas School Book Depository.

    This is a point that the Warren Commission got wrong:

    William Manchester writes, in a footnote:

    « The Warren Commission reported that the luncheon site was selected
    by the Secret Service, with O’Donnell’s approval. This is incorrect.
    The decision was a political decision, made by politicians. Bruno was
    among the witnesses whom the Commission did not summon. »

    Footnote 1 on page 25 of William Manchester’s _The Death of a
    President_ (Harper and Row, 1967)

    This is where you could have a conspiracy. And the man who would be one of the guilty parties is. . .Governor Connally, who lied and pretended to have a White House conversation to get JFK’s appearance set a place where to get there, his car would have to pas the Texas School Book Depository.

    Of course, in that case, obviously he would have been an unwitting conspirator.

    Connally is the overlooked suspect, who may have been instrumental in the plot. But in that case, Connally didn’t know it, not then and not for 30 years later.

    Eugene Locke was his old college roommate who had persuaded him to run
    for Governor and had been his campaign manager in 1962. Locke later persuaded Connally not run again and ran for Governor himself in 1968 and lost badly.

    Now, nobody would have started a conspiracy with Oswald in mind. He would have had to have been a second choice after the original assassins had backed out, and only tried because Locke had nothing else to try.

    If so, by the way, Locke gave himself several outs – like, if someone shot at JFK and missed and was not caught, that the John Birch Society did it. That’s what JFK himself believed — and he was warned (too late for him to cancel) by Senator J William Fulbright not to go to Dallas..

    Locke also probably arranged for a lawyer to shut Oswald up, in case he was caught: A former New York State Assemblyman by the name of Mark Lane. Mark Lane did not want to give up the gig, or could have been secretly still paid..

    Oswald could have been motivated by Locke having someone tell Oswald that the “Red Cross” – Oswald’s name for the KGB – wanted him to kill Kennedy and would help him if he escaped into Mexico.

    You remember Oswald wanted a Communist Party lawyer. There’s no question what was his motive – the question is did Oswald dream up this idea by himself?

    Oswald was just stupid enough to believe that the Soviet Union wanted him to kill Kennedy. Or did someone impersonate a KGB messenger? That would be the key distinction between the two possibilities.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  535. One important question is: Did Eugene Locke know George de Mohrenschildt – or someone else de Mohrenschildt talked to?

    George de Mohrenschildt, who was also connected with the oil business – he had been a petroleum engineer, and was living in Dallas, was maybe the only person outside of Marina Oswald, who knew that Oswald had tried to kill General Walker and he left for Haiti about then.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  536. This story about a plot to violently overthrow the German government sounds like something from a spy novel.

    BERLIN — Special Forces in Germany have arrested 25 people suspected of supporting a domestic terrorist organization that planned to overthrow the government and form its own state, the federal prosecutor said on Wednesday.

    In early-morning raids carried out across the country, some 3,000 police and Special Forces officers detained people believed to be members and supporters of the group, which prosecutors said had been formed in the past year and was operating on the conviction that “Germany is currently ruled by members of a so-called deep state” that needed to be overthrown. Prosecutors said that two other people had been arrested outside Germany, one in Austria and another in Italy.

    Among those detained were a member of the far-right Alternative for Germany party who had served in the German Parliament, a member of the German nobility and a Russian citizen accused of supporting the group’s plans. Federal prosecutors said that they were investigating a total of 52 suspects.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  537. Eugene Locke, a Dallas lawyer

    If anyone within the reach of federal law enforcement had been culpable, they would have grandstanded the arrest, trial and execution. There would have been no profit in not doing so. So, if it was not Oswald, the only coverup would have been to protect someone untouchable. And only LBJ (or the Soviet Union) fits that bill.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  538. 63. norcal (862cdb) — 12/2/2022 @ 3:31 pm

    people like Flynn and Eastman pushing something akin to martial law, you know, just while they “sort this out”. Horrible precedent.

    Flynn did that, and Sydney Powell, not Eastman. Eastman had something else.

    Eastman had a letter in the Wall Street Journal today and a reply by an editorial, which basically says he’s wrong about what he said in a meeting on January 5 and Mike Pence’s legal counsel Greg Jacob and his chief of staff, Marc Short, are to be believed.

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/john-eastman-2020-election-law-constitutional-elector-jan-6-mike-pence-claremont-11670279330

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/john-eastmans-bad-defense-gets-worse-mike-pence-donald-trump-jan-6-marc-short-greg-jacob-11670269437

    Even his defense does not concede that the legislators wanting to reverse the outcome of the Electoral votes sent by their state were largely fictional.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  539. as tomorrow is December 7 in Hawaii, FDR knew Pearl Harbor was going to be attacked and let it happen…

    It’s a speculation only. The US had broken the Japanese diplomatic “Purple” code in 1939, so they knew what instructions that the Japanese negotiating team had, including that they were to break diplomatic relations at 1pm EST on December 7th. It is not clear that the diplomats knew of any particular attack or if there were to be attacks. However, even though FDR and General Marshall reacted to this information by sending war warnings out, the attacks were already underway when the warnings were received and decoded.

    See the Wikipedia article.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  540. Eugene Locke, a Dallas lawyer

    Kevin M:

    If anyone within the reach of federal law enforcement had been culpable, they would have grandstanded the arrest, trial and execution.

    To do that, you would first have to know. for one thing. This would have been tightly held by a few Texas Democrats, none of them being LBJ or John Connally, and by a few lawyers like maybe Howard P. Willens, who actually wrote much of the Warren report..

    There would have been no profit in not doing so.

    There’s blackmail.

    So, if it was not Oswald, the only coverup would have been to protect someone untouchable. And only LBJ (or the Soviet Union) fits that bill.

    No, was Oswald. It was the first shot that missed. The Warren Commission created confusion.

    In 1992, Willens, now a Washington lawyer, had an unnecessary dispute with William Manchester about what Manchester said and wanted when he contacted him while he was writing his book.

    What this may involve was the possibility there was an attempt by LBJ to get Connally to ride in his car, not Kennedy’s as has been stated in a book _The Texas Connection_ which based it on older sources.

    Supposing that LBJ was given a reason but not the true reason, he might have argued heatedly, but then given up.. That way, the connection to the White House of one of the chief conspirators nearly got killed.

    If this is the case, Locke might originally have had other assassins
    in mind, but whoever it was, backed out, but then he heard about
    Oswald or he had already heard about Oswald but never thought of using him until he had no alternative to him but to give up.

    The question only hinges is did he arrange for Oswald to get the job he did and did he send a secret message to Oswald using someone pretending to be the KGB

    George de Mohrenschildt would have to be the source for his information about Oswald..

    Nearly all the conspiracy theories involve someone other than Oswald being the shooter.

    The best explanation for the proliferation of conspiracy theories is to hide the real conspiracy. As was done in the case of Harding. My suspicion would be on Mae West as the assassin/poisoner before she became famous. Nobody knows her wherabouts in 1923 and 1924.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  541. LBJ believed it was Castro (who used Oswald).

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  542. There’s no question that there was a big conspiracy starting in the 1960s to spread faulty conspiracy theories about the JFK assassination.

    The question is why.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  543. Trump’s problems with stolen government documents just won’t end.

    Former President Donald J. Trump hired people to search four properties after being directed by a federal judge to look harder for any classified material still in his possession, and they found at least two documents with classified markings inside a sealed box in one of the locations, according to a person familiar with the matter.

    Mr. Trump’s search team discovered the documents at a federally run storage site in West Palm Beach, Fla., the person said, prompting his lawyers to notify the Justice Department about them.

    The site is run by GSA, not the National Archives as should be.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  544. Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 12/7/2022 @ 2:18 pm

    The site is run by GSA, not the National Archives as should be.

    A former president can keep government records, including classified ones, nearby, but it must be under the control of the National Archives, which is what Obama did. He has access to them and can grant seven other people access, I think. ZBut Trump dislikes complications.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)


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