Patterico's Pontifications

10/23/2022

Some Things Are More Important Than Others

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 12:13 pm



Liz Cheney was on “Meet the Press” with Chuck Todd. The video is worth watching to see a clip (which appears early in the video) of Glenn Youngkin stumping for Kari Lake, ignoring a question about her election denial and basically saying every state should have a Republican governor . . . whether they are election deniers or not.

I added that last part, but it’s his unspoken message given the question he was asked.

Some things are more important than others. I’d like to have a president who doesn’t do racial demagoguery, extreme fiscal irresponsibility, saying stupid things off script, and so forth. Since we are likely to get Joe Biden vs. Donald Trump again, we’re going to get such a president either way.

But some things are more important. Here are two:

1. Election denial. Kari Lake has said she would not have certified the 2020 election in Arizona. As Liz Cheney plainly states, this is a declaration that she will not certify any election where she disagrees with the outcome. There is no greater flouting of democracy and the rule of law. I would never vote for such a person.

2. Support for Ukraine. Here again, this is a fairly straightforward issue. Vladimir Putin is essentially Hitler with nukes. His aspirations are genocidal. He is a war criminal. He must be stopped. Yet Kevin McCarthy has sent a signal that Putin need only wait until November and our support may soften — apparently because Everything Joe Biden Does Is Bad even when it’s actually good.

Both of these very important issues outweigh wokeness or any other stupid culture war issue you might pick. They are even more important than inflation. Democracy and fighting genocidal war criminals trumps temporary economic issues.

Only partisan hacks can’t see this.

320 Responses to “Some Things Are More Important Than Others”

  1. My state has a LAW that they can cast electoral votes for someone other than the state-wide winner. This concerns me more than your “maybes” — they’re not pretending to be honest.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  2. As for Ukraine, yes, of course. But you are misreading McCarthy’s comments — he’s speaking to a minority of the GOP base saying that our support does have limits. And it does now. For example, we are not sending troops or offering Ukraine nuclear weapons.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  3. Hello there. Bring on the onslaught of people disagreeing with my very simple and uncontroversial opinion.

    Patterico (cf4166)

  4. Glad to see this post, Patterico. Character matters. Have an ethical center matters.

    Seems like both parties have abandoned both of those principles.

    We don’t have to act like them. But sadly, many of us will.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  5. Agreed. Both of these very important issues outweigh wokeness, culture wars, or any reinterpretation of the facts that ELECTION DENIAL and SUPPORT FOR UKRAINE are the most important American interests at this point in history.

    DRJ (8a860b)

  6. Matter of fact, California state law allows the casting of electoral votes to whomever the state determines won the national popular vote. How is this OK?

    I’m sorry I don’t see things through your narrow I-hate-Trump blinders. There are more values in the world than two. That you assert there aren’t notwithstanding. A candidate who thinks abortions should be legal at 35 weeks is more of a moral leper than even Donald Trump.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  7. BTW, does anyone assert that our support for Ukraine IS a black check? Please raise your hands.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  8. *blaNk.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  9. I would have hoped that Patterico would engage rather than disparage.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  10. I admit that I would not vote for J D Vance, who has said he’d oppose more aid to Ukraine. THat far more than what McCarthy said:

    “There’s the things [the Biden administration] is not doing domestically,” he said. “Not doing the border, and people begin to weigh that. Ukraine is important, but at the same time, it can’t be the only thing they do, and it can’t be a blank check.”

    which is spun pretty hard by the Democrats and the MSM (birm).

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  11. I’m sorry I don’t see things through your narrow I-hate-Trump blinders.

    I’m not going to respond to statements like that. They don’t deserve a response.

    Patterico (ab37e8)

  12. BTW, does anyone assert that our support for Ukraine IS a black check? Please raise your hands.

    That’s not the point. The point is the signal that McCarthy is sending by making that statement.

    It’s enough to prevent me from voting for any Republican for Congress.

    Patterico (ab37e8)

  13. Kevin,

    Pat has a job with great time constraints. In the past Pat engaged people – one example was a blogger libertarian started an interesting discussion with pat over intentionalism or something like that – Pat would state his interpretation without snark, in the concise paragraph or two clearly written. – Things went south quickly – the unemployed libertarian blowhard went off the rails vomiting spews of pages of weirdness. Lasted for about 2 years –

    And we wont even mention the Mark Levine explosion when Pat pointed out the fact that she never won a district in Delaware

    It seems to me people go straight to stupid when Pat calls the facts out

    EPWJ (650a62)

  14. “That’s not the point. The point is the signal that McCarthy is sending by making that statement.

    It’s enough to prevent me from voting for any Republican for Congress.

    Patterico (ab37e8) — 10/23/2022 @ 1:11 pm”

    I’m not willing to go to scorched earth but McCarthy should

    A. Stop Talking
    B. Realize he wont be speaker

    EPWJ (650a62)

  15. But some things are more important.

    Yes, here’s mine:
    Anyone but Democrats.

    I briefly had a scare, and it’s still scary mind you, that my son’s best friend died of a fentanyl laced marijuana that obviously came through the southern border.

    I don’t know if we had a GOP President if this would’ve still happened, but I *know* current Democrat policies is for open border in the broadest sense wouldn’t do anything to mitigate this.

    So, I cannot, in good conscious, support anyone candidates for the Democratic party, or support a “3rd” party to dilute my nominal GOP vote that may lead into Democrat control. (that’s the nature of a two party system).

    whembly (b770f8)

  16. But to your following:

    1. Election denial. Kari Lake has said she would not have certified the 2020 election in Arizona. As Liz Cheney plainly states, this is a declaration that she will not certify any election where she disagrees with the outcome. There is no greater flouting of democracy and the rule of law. I would never vote for such a person.

    Couldn’t this be attributed to pandering, rather than a promise?

    I do agree, that denying elections does have cancerous effects to the debate. But, let’s not also deny the funny shenanigans that the covid-era policies has also introduced into this debate.

    2. Support for Ukraine. Here again, this is a fairly straightforward issue. Vladimir Putin is essentially Hitler with nukes. His aspirations are genocidal. He is a war criminal. He must be stopped. Yet Kevin McCarthy has sent a signal that Putin need only wait until November and our support may soften — apparently because Everything Joe Biden Does Is Bad even when it’s actually good.

    I think you’re being a weee bit unfair to McCarthy here. My read, and hope, is that when GOP is in control they will continue to provide support, but there will be more stipulations (ie, require the IG to monitor/investigation disbursements that Democrats struck out in previous bills).

    whembly (b770f8)

  17. So much damage has been done to election integrity by both sides. I don’t know how best to repair it. Purple ink on fingers? To me, voter ID is critical, but do I ever get called names when I say so. You would think that both “sides” would be onboard with making certain no one is falsely voting, but here we are.

    Folks who have issues with supporting Ukraine against Russia have to be willing to say they truly don’t care what happens directly in other nations. That might be defensible, but again we have the shifting standards problem.

    Me, I think all of us need to explore what would be a “bridge too far” from our preferred candidate, or even (gasp) whether the “other” candidate is closer to our own viewpoint.

    I am tired of cheerleading. Which is what so much of politics has become.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  18. @17

    So much damage has been done to election integrity by both sides. I don’t know how best to repair it. Purple ink on fingers? To me, voter ID is critical, but do I ever get called names when I say so. You would think that both “sides” would be onboard with making certain no one is falsely voting, but here we are.

    Agreed… and bringing the Purple ink on fingers is a fine idea imo.

    Folks who have issues with supporting Ukraine against Russia have to be willing to say they truly don’t care what happens directly in other nations. That might be defensible, but again we have the shifting standards problem.

    Look, I’m #TeamUkraine here.

    However, I’m one of these folks who questions if we have leadership to navigate the challenges on being on #TeamUkraine. The heinous withdrawal from Afghanistan doesn’t give me any confidence that our leaders know what they’re doing.

    Me, I think all of us need to explore what would be a “bridge too far” from our preferred candidate, or even (gasp) whether the “other” candidate is closer to our own viewpoint.

    I am tired of cheerleading. Which is what so much of politics has become.

    Simon Jester (c8876d) — 10/23/2022 @ 1:45 pm

    That’s a good sentiment, and absolutely defensible.

    For me, as I mentioned before, the Democratic party in its current iteration is “a bridge too far” for me.

    So, I’m voting down-ticket Republican for the near future.

    whembly (b770f8)

  19. Kari Lake has said she would not have certified the 2020 election in Arizona. As Liz Cheney plainly states, this is a declaration that she will not certify any election where she disagrees with the outcome. There is no greater flouting of democracy and the rule of law. I would never vote for such a person.

    Apparently, it’s the poor quality of the Dem candidate that’s helping Kari Lake. What exactly is wrong with her (the Dem candidate for Governor) I didn’t get but the latest is she refuses to take part in a debate. Kari Lake and Blake Masters are also half backtracking.

    2. Support for Ukraine. Here again, this is a fairly straightforward issue. Vladimir Putin is essentially Hitler with nukes.

    You aren’t atisfied with Kaiser Wilhelm and the World War I Germans?

    His aspirations are genocidal. He is a war criminal. He must be stopped. Yet Kevin McCarthy has sent a signal that Putin need only wait until November and our support may soften — apparently because Everything Joe Biden Does Is Bad even when it’s actually good.

    No, it’s the “America First” poison working its way in. (plus maybe the idea that Putin is not really going to attack everybody)

    Sammy Finkelman (381929)

  20. https://wartranslated.com/

    From: Summary of Arestovych and Feygin daily broadcast:

    “Republicans want more clear distinction of what’s actual aid to 🇺🇦, and what’s used for other purposes – like assisting African countries buying 🇺🇦 crops.”

    steveg (28a49a)

  21. That explanation from a Zelenksky confidante is no doubt full of diplomatic nuance, but makes sense. One is a DC attempt at a twofer: African aid and UA aid bundled. DC has a way of losing a lot of money to everyone in the food chain in these tangential deals. Better book keeping to call the food purchase money African aid and keep it seperate from military aid. When the smoke and mirrors come out, the only things I know is the money always disappears and the pretty lady changed her outfit to finish the distraction about the disappearance of the cash.

    (These are reposts from the other thread)

    steveg (28a49a)

  22. Kari Lake has said she would not have certified the 2020 election in Arizona. As Liz Cheney plainly states, this is a declaration that she will not certify any election where she disagrees with the outcome.
    As Liz Cheney clearly speculates?
    What is the difference between a partisan who quickly certifies an iffy win and a partisan who challenges a clear loss? Its like football repalay. Hurry up and snap before the refs stop play because you know it won’t hold up, or challenge. Challenge is fine, just be a gracious loser about it after the review
    If Lake thinks an election result is dirty, let her test it. I’d much rather put our election results to honest tests than sign it off in rote maneuver.
    We are in a new era where ballot chain of custody has been dismantled and this new system needs to be tested

    steveg (28a49a)

  23. Both of these very important issues outweigh wokeness or any other stupid culture war issue you might pick. They are even more important than inflation. Democracy and fighting genocidal war criminals trumps temporary economic issues.

    Only partisan hacks can’t see this.

    Leaving aside the sheer question-begging of these statements, the American people disagree with you, and wildly so. And the reason for that is because the Democrats have gone so far off the rails in their irresponsibility that they are alienating even traditional constituencies like Hispanics. It’s gotten so bad that Republicans are actually threatening to win elections in deep blue areas like Los Angeles, Oregon, Washington, and New York.

    The “stupid culture wars” pejorative is just the same old tired complaint from the neocon faction that no engagement on that front should ever be done. It’s the same deflection the left always tries whenever the right actually bothers to challenge them in those domains, typically preceding the “American Taliban” and “fascist” slurs they’ve employed for the last 20 years and 50-plus years, respectively.

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d)

  24. Thing is, election denial was Kari Lake’s only qualification in the Republican primary. She got just under 400,000 votes. Let’s see how the more than one million who also voted in the primary but not for her split their votes this time.

    nk (bb1548)

  25. the American people disagree with you

    Heh! And three out five dentists surveyed, also.

    If you watch TV with the commercials (it’s how I’m watching Adam-12), you’ll notice that the most common selling tactic is “everybody is doing it”. The political variant is “the people want”.

    nk (bb1548)

  26. The point is the signal that McCarthy is sending by making that statement.

    A Republican signaling some line of ‘fiscal responsibility’- particularly regarding shoveling borrowed billions in freebees to non-citizens to prop up one the most corrupt regions in Eastern Europe, next to Russia itself, sounds reasonably sane. The Treasury Department didn’t fund guns to Moran in the turf war w/ Capone.

    Ukraine is not an American problem- -no matter how hard armchair ideologues try to make it one. It is for wealthy, modern Europe- w/their vibrant economies, extensive national healthcare systems and strong militaries to bear the burden and manage the circumstances of their own making- not the taxpayers of the United States. The immediate dependence on Russian energy sources is a problem of their own creation– and were warned of the vulnerably of such short term policy planning – it is their responsibility to manage the outbreak of the third significant kinetic conflict of the European continent in 114 years. Not a debt-burdened America, suffer staggering inflation, w/a weather ravaged Florida in ruins; its own infrastructure crumbling as bridges across the land collapse– and a southern border wide open for illegal carrying diseases and drugs into and across the U.S.

    Get Squinty and the fellow travelers in Congress to sell Ukrainian Freedom Fighter war bonds, raise the billions if you can [and likely would from corporate interests who want to get back to business there]- but adding to the U.S. debt for Ukraine is foolish policy–especially when American interests are most directly threatened over Taiwan.

    ______

    We’re deep into the era when image over substance rules. It’s why JFK beat Nixon on TV– while radio listeners believed The Big Dick was the victor.

    Who looks and sounds better on television- Kari Lake or Daughter Darth? Lake, hands down. You want to invite her in your living room. The droning, sourpussed Wyoming Knish– not so much.

    _____

    We’re within the 30 day window of the midterms, so more heat than light will be generated now– and w/apologies to norcal- the jello is in the fridge, firming up. No minds will be changed– espcially as that box of jello keeps getting more expensive. The burning issue of an inflation riddled economy ‘trumps’ any priorities of abortion as an issue [crabgrass in the yard of a house on fire.] If Republicans blows this cycle their leadership deserves to be fired right along w/t Ds and soon to be failing up Ambassador to the Vatican Pelosi.

    DCSCA (d915f5)

  27. Reminder: have the Dancing Alitos- our troupe of be-robed bureaucrats- found the leaker yet??

    Nope.

    DCSCA (d915f5)

  28. If you watch TV with the commercials (it’s how I’m watching Adam-12), you’ll notice that the most common selling tactic is “everybody is doing it”. The political variant is “the people want”.

    nk (bb1548) — 10/23/2022 @ 3:03 pm

    Funny how “our precious democracy” suddenly becomes an appeal to popularity when the majority isn’t on board with it and has other priorities.

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d)

  29. ## 7, 9, 11

    I can’t speak either for Patterico or Kevin M., but since I generally agree with both of them a lot of the time, this disagreement pains me and perhaps it can be reconciled, or at least narrowed, if possibly they would assent to the following:

    1. “Blank check” is kind of a loaded term, but it’s correct we have not given Ukraine a blank check up to now, as one commenter pointed out, we haven’t sent combat troops there or pushed NATO to do so. This may be a naively literal interpretation, but McCarthy’s statement is not much different from the status quo.
    2. Putin is an aggressor who must be stopped. We should give Ukraine enough aid so that they can, hopefully, not merely stall the Russians as they have, but push the aggressors out of Ukraine, as they seem to be doing.

    Shouldn’t the question be, what is enough aid for the Ukrainians, and not the unrealistic alternatives of either cutting it off or making it limitless?

    Sorry if I have mischaracterized anyone’s views, but since people are mainly in agreement (I think) as to what the goal should be, can’t we all, per R. King, just get along?

    RL formerly in Glendale (48bc71)

  30. That’s not the point. The point is the signal that McCarthy is sending by making that statement.

    I reacted to it the same way, then I read what he actually said rather than what all the interpreters said. The signal you see was created somewhere between McCarthy and yourself. In communications theory we call this the man-in-the-middle attack.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  31. >> I’m sorry I don’t see things through your narrow I-hate-Trump blinders.

    I’m not going to respond to statements like that. They don’t deserve a response.

    Actually, it appears that not only will you respond to them, you will cherry-pick to get to them.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  32. Actually, FWO, I feel that I gave the kindest possible interpretation to your comment @22. Just because you say so — “the American people disagree with you, and wildly so” — don’t make it so. It’s like, you know, just your opinion, man.

    nk (bb1548)

  33. Nancy Pelosi today: “And the fact is, is that when I hear people talk about inflation…we have to change that subject. Inflation is a global phenomenon.'”

    Further proof that the great political realignment continues apace. Only people who don’t have to worry about feeding their families or putting a roof over their heads desperately want to minimize the impact of inflation on the lives of average Americans.

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d)

  34. If you watch TV with the commercials … you’ll notice that the most common selling tactic is “everybody is doing it”.

    Well, here it seems the commercials are about 1) hearsay accounts of what one candidate really thinks about abortion, or 2) how the other candidate paid off a staff member over a harassment claim, or 3) about how [any given Republican] is just like Donald Trump.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  35. @28. It’s a blank check:

    On CBS’ 60 Minutes, just one month ago, Biden stated that the United States would support Ukraine in its efforts to aid it during the Russian invasion. Biden stated that the United States would continue to provide financial assistance for Ukraine “as long it takes.” 9-19-22

    https://conservativesdaily.com/

    DCSCA (d915f5)

  36. Actually, FWO, I feel that I gave the kindest possible interpretation to your comment @22. Just because you say so — “the American people disagree with you, and wildly so” — don’t make it so. It’s like, you know, just your opinion, man.

    nk (bb1548) — 10/23/2022 @ 4:15 pm

    Deflect all you want, that doesn’t change the reality. Even the Dems media mouthpieces are sounding the alarm:

    Political mood tilts in Republicans’ favor with economy and inflation top of mind three weeks from midterms
    By Jennifer Agiesta, CNN Polling Director
    Updated 6:32 PM EDT, Mon October 17, 2022

    The economy and inflation are the dominant issues three weeks out from the midterm congressional elections, challenging Democrats’ chances of maintaining control of Congress, according to a string of new polls released in the last few days.

    Widespread impressions of the economy as bad and worsening, combined with dissatisfaction with President Joe Biden and the way things are going in the country, suggest that the nation’s overall political mood – which had been somewhat more favorable for Democrats following the Supreme Court’s overturning of Roe v. Wade – may be tilting more in Republicans’ favor.
    A CBS News/YouGov survey released Sunday finds 65% of voters feel the economy is getting worse and 68% say the Biden administration could be doing more to combat inflation. In a New York Times/Siena College poll released Monday, 64% of likely voters say the United States is heading in the wrong direction, with the economy (26%) and inflation (18%) the only issues named by double-digit shares of likely voters as the most important problem facing the country today, with all other issues at 8% or less. And 70% of registered voters say they are dissatisfied with the way things are going in the US today, according to an AP-NORC survey out Monday, including majorities across party lines.

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d)

  37. Yeah, I heard Pelosi say that on Deface the Nation this morning. I was driving and smoking a cigarette. I turned off the radio, and put out my cigarette and lit a fresh one because she had ruined the taste of the first.

    nk (bb1548)

  38. 1. “Blank check” is kind of a loaded term, but it’s correct we have not given Ukraine a blank check up to now, as one commenter pointed out, we haven’t sent combat troops there or pushed NATO to do so. This may be a naively literal interpretation, but McCarthy’s statement is not much different from the status quo.
    2. Putin is an aggressor who must be stopped. We should give Ukraine enough aid so that they can, hopefully, not merely stall the Russians as they have, but push the aggressors out of Ukraine, as they seem to be doing.

    I agree with this, and in fact I believe that we should be doing more. But a “blank check” is not on the table and never has been. There are some in the GOP base who are actually worried that we might step over a line that we cannot step back from, and I see this as a reassurance that we are not that stupid.

    OTOH, the slow escalation that Biden is involved in seems likely to neither effect victory or prevent us from crossing that once-distant line.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  39. @28. Ho is an aggressor who must be stopped. We should give South Vietnam enough aid so that they can, hopefully, not merely stall the NVA as they have, but push the aggressors out of south Vietnam, north of the DMZ, as they seem to be doing.

    FIFY. Ahhhh yes- the light at the end of the tunnel. And when was the USA designated World Policeman again?? Asking for 300 million taxpayers.

    DCSCA (d915f5)

  40. I mailed in my ballot today. There is one GOP election denier on my state ballot (and any number of Democrat election-stealers) and I voted LP in that contest. There are limits.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  41. It’s not deflection, I’ve been thinking about the “be with the popular kids” marketing strategy since somebody mentioned polls yesterday.

    nk (bb1548)

  42. NM is currently working with a state legislative map that is openly gerrymandered. The state senate leader said it was necessary because a [fair] election would block his progressive agenda. This is one of the reasons why I am not as offended by those who deny election results — some elections ARE crooked.

    Matter of fact, if you were to look at who the people were who drew up the California maps, you’d know just how crooked a process that was. Here’s one of the “Republican” members.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  43. I’ve been thinking about the “be with the popular kids” marketing strategy since somebody mentioned polls yesterday.

    I have never understood the “[secretly] be with the cool kids” thing.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  44. @23: Keri Lake has been fortunate in her opponent, who seems utterly disconnected from the voters, and in the Biden administration, which seems actively engaged in dooming the Democrat party this election.

    The party of CAN versus the party of CAN’T.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  45. Things will be much clearer after Trump is dead.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  46. 60 Years Ago Today, October 23, 1962: The Cuban Missiler Crisis; tick-tock, tick-tock…

    The fuse is lit…

    Assistant Secretary of State for Inter-American Affairs Edwin Martin seeks a resolution of support from the Organization of American States. Ambassador to the United Nations Adlai Stevenson lays the matter before the U.N. Security Council. The ships of the naval quarantine fleet move into place around Cuba. Soviet submarines threaten the quarantine by moving into the Caribbean area. Soviet freighters bound for Cuba with military supplies stop dead in the water, but the oil tanker Bucharest continues towards Cuba. In the evening Robert Kennedy meets with Ambassador Dobrynin at the Soviet Embassy.

    After the Organization of American States endorsed the quarantine, President Kennedy asks Khrushchev to halt any Russian ships heading toward Cuba. The president’s greatest concern is that a U.S. Navy vessel would otherwise be forced to fire upon a Russian vessel, possibly igniting war between the superpowers.

    Sixty years ago, more than 10,000 San Diego county-based marines began secretly moving out on President Kennedy’s alert to the threat of Russian Missiles in Cuba. The Cuban Missile Crisis of October 1962 was the closest the United States and the Soviet Union came to a nuclear conflict during the Cold War.

    https://microsites.jfklibrary.org/cmc/oct23/
    https://www.archives.gov/news/topics/cuban-missile-crisis

    DCSCA (008210)

  47. Matter of fact, if you were to look at who the people were who drew up the California maps, you’d know just how crooked a process that was. Here’s one of the “Republican” members.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9) — 10/23/2022 @ 4:31 pm

    Reminds me of Colorado’s “bipartisan” Christian-hating Civil Rights Commission that’s been trying to put Masterpiece Cakeshop out of business. Look at the actual board makeup, and it’s nothing more than LGBT activists and “independent in name only” Democrats working at the behest of the state Democratic party.

    The only “bipartisan” thing that’s happened in that state in the last 20 years has been the commission that was set up to create competitive election districts. The Democrats pushed that through before they came to dominate the state like their counterparts in Cali and New Mexico do, and they ended up regretting it in 2021 because they lost the chance to gerrymander.

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d)

  48. Agreed. Both of these very important issues outweigh wokeness, culture wars, or any reinterpretation of the facts that ELECTION DENIAL and SUPPORT FOR UKRAINE are the most important American interests at this point in history.

    DRJ (8a860b) — 10/23/2022 @ 12:44 pm

    No. Putting food on the table and a roof over your family’s head are the most important issues on the table.

    Your beliefs are why Liz Cheney is no longer relevant. People don’t care about privileged beliefs when voting for the left destroys the middle class.

    NJRob (3314fa)

  49. Nancy Pelosi today: “And the fact is, is that when I hear people talk about inflation…we have to change that subject. Inflation is a global phenomenon.’”

    The FACT is most Americans have less and less change in their pockets on that subject- thanks to the soar costs of Biden’s inflation.

    “I trust his judgement.” – Nancy Pelosi

    … and Putin smiled. Xi is grinning- espcially today… for life.

    DCSCA (008210)

  50. Character matters. Have an ethical center matters.

    Pure Jimmy Carter.

    DCSCA (008210)

  51. Liz Cheney is no longer relevant.

    they shouted over and over

    Dustin (a87c64)

  52. “Americans are starving and homeless” is supposed to be the Left’s rallying cry, NJRoB. What happened to “America is too great a nation to limit ourselves to small dreams”?

    Whether we like it or not, Russia is still “barbarians who want to destroy western civilization” and we need to stop them. And democracy runs on faith. Whether we like the results or not, we have to abide by them.

    nk (bb1548)

  53. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_Ukraine

    Your government is putting you and your kids deeper and deeper in debt freely backing these bums. And they’ve literally bitten at hands that have been freely feed them- as Elon Musk can attest.

    DCSCA (008210)

  54. @50. Who?

    DCSCA (008210)

  55. And democracy runs on faith.

    Pfft.

    “In God We Trust; All Others, Strictly Cash.”

    DCSCA (008210)

  56. Matter of fact, California state law allows the casting of electoral votes to whomever the state determines won the national popular vote. How is this OK?
    ………
    Kevin M (eeb9e9) — 10/23/2022 @ 12:49 pm

    That it is a theoretical possibility, but not the way the law reads now. California still allocates its electoral votes the same way as 48 other states-winner takes all.

    6920. The Legislature of the State of California hereby ratifies the Agreement Among the States to Elect the President by National Popular Vote as set forth in Section 6921.

    6921. The provisions of the Agreement Among the States to Elect the President by National Popular Vote are as follows:
    ……..
    This agreement shall take effect when states cumulatively possessing a majority of the electoral votes have enacted this agreement in substantially the same form and the enactments by such states have taken effect in each state.
    ………

    Rip Murdock (a8bd31)

  57. Jackwagons are gonna jackwagon.

    Thank the rest of you for expressing your opinions like adults. There is in fact respect here, even when opinions differ.

    Other than from jackwagons.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  58. @55 Which won’t happen, so it’s kinda moot.

    Even if enough states do join the compact, there are myriad of ways to stop this in court.

    whembly (b770f8)

  59. Kevin — spreading the belief that election administration is biased and election results are not accurate, without proof of such, undermines the legitimacy of the republic and sets up political support for the proposition that elections are unfixably untrustworthy and that a strongman who is in touch with the will of the people must sweep away the corrupt apparatus of fake elections.

    It is the single most dangerous thing in domestic politics in my lifetime, or yours.

    The NPV does not undermine faith in vote counting or election results, and that makes it different in substance from the stuff that Trump and his people are doing.

    aphrael (181fc3)

  60. “Both of these very important issues outweigh wokeness or any other stupid culture war issue you might pick.”

    You can trust Patterico content. The underlying point about Ms. Lake is she is in essence saying that facts and evidence don’t matter. That she trusts the conspiratorial ranting of Trump’s team abnormal. It insults my intelligence to be told facts are no longer facts…..but feelz. I thought we had one of those parties already. Sorry but anyone that carries water for the emotional architect of January 6th deserves to lose.

    As per Ukraine, every billion invested breaks the Russian war machine that much more and every body-bagged Russian conscript drains Putin’s national goodwill. One bloodied mark against authoritarianism helps check any illiberal moves by China. Putin’s only play is for the hard left and hard right to bail him out by cutting the umbilical cord. The term “blank check” is more rhetorical, but it’s meant to say we stand with Ukraine as long as they are willing to fight and die for their freedom.

    Finally I agree with Patt’s throwing of culture war issues into the backseat. Yes, everyone has an opinion on these things, but it tends to be like turning 2 stereos, playing differet songs, to setting 11. We need to get back to talking to one another and finding common purpose. We need our legislatures negotiating and biting off bits of the long-term problems, including debt, that get ignored when people self-righteously shout epithets at each other. Solve problems together.

    I miss Dana.

    AJ_Liberty (15d88c)

  61. >the American people disagree with you

    And that is why the Republic will fall within our lifetime — the lies have been successful, and a large enough percentage of the population no longer trusts the mechanisms of elections to sustain a Republic.

    There’s a story, apocryphal or not, that Benjamin Franklin, when asked what the outcome of the constitutional convention was, quipped “a Republic, if you can keep it.” We kept it for close to two hundred and fifty years, and we will miss it when it’s gone, but it’s pretty clear that we’re no longer able to keep it.

    aphrael (181fc3)

  62. @58, Amen. Succinct. NPV has not yet passed legal scrutiny. I’m not sure why that takes precedence over people who say they will throw out votes…just because.

    AJ_Liberty (15d88c)

  63. Russian Media Watch:

    Julia Davis

    @JuliaDavisNews

    Meanwhile on Russia’s state-funded RT, director of broadcasting Anton Krasovsky suggests drowning or burning Ukrainian children, makes hideous comments about the rapes by Russian soldiers in Ukraine, says Ukraine should not exist and Ukrainians who resist Russia should be shot.

    0:28 PM · Oct 22, 2022·Twitter Web App

    The original video has 2M views.

    Rip Murdock (a8bd31)

  64. Actually, it appears that not only will you respond to them, you will cherry-pick to get to them.

    My days of talking to people who are rude to me are done. This will be my last response to you in this thread.

    Patterico (58ae3c)

  65. And that is why the Republic will fall within our lifetime — the lies have been successful, and a large enough percentage of the population no longer trusts the mechanisms of elections to sustain a Republic.

    Oh please. People prioritizing their families and concerns about inflation and the economy over election concerns and Russia’s war on Ukraine are hardly the harbingers of the Republic’s downfall. That already began happening when neo-marxism became the Cathedral’s new religion in the late 60s.

    In fact, the Democrats are so desperate they’re trying to lay the battlefield to blame their own imminent failures on Republicans when the bureaucracies finally acknowledge what’s been obvious to anyone with a brain for the better part of this year:

    Jennifer “Pro-privacy” Rubin
    @JRubinBlogger
    If you got help, Mr. and Mrs. Average Voter, Rs want to take it away. And if Democrats don’t go along with the Republicans’ reverse Robin Hood policies, they are willing to burn down the economy with a default

    Sen. Klobuchar pleads with voters: If Dems don’t win midterms, GOP will crash the economy

    Hilariously, in contravention to that dessicated banshee Rubin’s screeching, Rolling Stone just did a piece talking about the GOP’s upcoming divorce from the Chamber of Commerce and global megacorps who were infiltrated and browbeaten into submission by wokel yokel, mentally ill Millennial college grads. No wonder the current Speaker of the House is so keen to take the attention off inflation, now with a big heaping helping in that endeavor from True and Honest Conservatives.

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d)

  66. We need to get back to talking to one another and finding common purpose.

    Translation: We need to continue honorably surrendering to the left and and go along with their assertion that the economy isn’t in the dumper right now.

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d)

  67. My state has a LAW that they can cast electoral votes for someone other than the state-wide winner. This concerns me more than your “maybes” — they’re not pretending to be honest.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9) — 10/23/2022 @ 12:16 pm

    New Mexico’s election code states the exact same thing as the California election code, namely that the

    “…….(Agreement Among the States to Elect the President by National Popular Vote) shall take effect when states cumulatively possessing a majority of the electoral votes have enacted this agreement in substantially the same form and the enactments by such states have taken effect in each state.”

    Rip Murdock (a8bd31)

  68. We are in a new era where ballot chain of custody has been dismantled and this new system needs to be tested

    It’s worse than that. We have a system that was developed to allow the elderly to vote, in small numbers, and required labor-intensive checking of signatures and documents to validate the ballot. Yet this process still allowed their grandchildren to cast the actual votes, but no matter as the ballots were small in number.

    But now it’s the majority of the votes, the rules for collecting them have been loosened, if not evaporated, violations of the remaining rules are waived, and no one really has the time to do proper validation anyway.

    We are between system — the 19th century system of our youth and the 21st century system to come. That it will be designed by government bureaucrats does not give me hope. Even if they don’t play partisan games (and I don’t think they will), it will be a government project with all the pessimum results that implies.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  69. “…….(Agreement Among the States to Elect the President by National Popular Vote) shall take effect when states cumulatively possessing a majority of the electoral votes have enacted this agreement in substantially the same form and the enactments by such states have taken effect in each state.”

    Rip Murdock (a8bd31) — 10/23/2022 @ 6:36 pm

    The agreement will be ignored entirely if a Republican ever wins the popular vote, so the whole thing is an exercise in mental masturbation anyway.

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d)

  70. Your beliefs are why Liz Cheney is no longer relevant

    It’s not that she’s irrelevant, it’s that she’s locked into her trajectory now. It’s like she’s gone from being a free-thinking Republican to a Party of One. And she has to support the brand now.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  71. The agreement will be ignored entirely if a Republican ever wins the popular vote, so the whole thing is an exercise in mental masturbation anyway.

    No, it isn’t. It’s a recipe for Cavinball elections. And THAT is how democracy dies, not when elections aren’t trusted, but when elections cannot BE trusted.

    Take an unconstitutional interstate compact, mix with random variations in voter eligibility and vote-counting (with a baked-in race to the bottom on both counts), add trust issues (do you really believe how they count votes in Chicago? Dallas? Florida? Dozens of counties in the South?) and then have a close election where one party win the electoral vote and the other party has a narrow popular vote win by some, but not all, counts.

    No matter how it works out, both the country and the Supreme Court take it in the teeth. Assuming that Congress doesn’t — correctly, perhaps — intervene.

    Effing recipe for disaster.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  72. Russia Media Watch II:

    Julia Davis
    @JuliaDavisNews

    Russian lawmakers Andrey Gurulyov and Konstantin Dolgov advocate freezing, starving the Ukrainian civilian population, forcing them into exile by making their survival otherwise impossible. State TV host Olga Skabeeva disingenuously claims that Russia simply has no other choice.

    7:49 PM · Oct 19, 2022·Twitter Web App

    Julia Davis

    @JuliaDavisNews

    A great hot mic moment: the expert, member of the Russian Defense Ministry’s Public Council, urges the hosts not to mention that the drones used in recent strikes are Iranian, since the authorities refuse to admit that: “It’s like an as* — you have it, but don’t say the word.”

    7:48 AM · Oct 20, 2022·Twitter Web App

    Julia Davis

    @JuliaDavisNews

    Take a look at these highlights from Russian state TV, where they smoothly fluctuate between admitting and denying that the drones Russia is using in Ukraine have been supplied by Iran. An expert admits that Iran being heavily sanctioned is a good thing that benefits Russia.

    5:25 PM · Oct 20, 2022·Twitter Web App

    Videos at links.

    Rip Murdock (a8bd31)

  73. Liz Cheney was on “Meet the Press” with Chuck Todd.

    of course she was

    do you ever ask yourself why a republican house incumbent who lost her primary in a landslide gets continually fêted by the media?

    JF (cb4f79)

  74. RL formerly in Glendale (48bc71) — 10/23/2022 @ 4:09 pm

    Blessed are the peacemakers…

    A valiant effort, for which you have my respect and admiration. Your comment also moderates the pain that I, also, feel.

    felipe (484255)

  75. Or the new “fixed” electoral count law which allows (or perhaps requires) all votes for a candidate who “participated in an insurrection” to be discarded.

    That will go over well if Trump wins and they overturn his election out in the open.

    “We had to destroy [the country] in order to save it.”

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  76. OK Guys I know it’s been a stressful day of trolling, but it’s really funny you guys are defending Trump by talking so much s–t about someone for losing an election. I really enjoy that part of the shtick. So much better than DCSCA talking about cartoons.

    Dustin (a87c64)

  77. No, it isn’t. It’s a recipe for Cavinball elections. And THAT is how democracy dies, not when elections aren’t trusted, but when elections cannot BE trusted.

    I think we ultimately agree on the toxicity of something like this, but for different reasons. My take is based more off of knowing the left’s mindset after wandering about in their professional circles since I started grad school 23 years ago, plus the social media postings of my left-wing classmates from high school since Facebook was released into the wild.

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d)

  78. The NPV does not undermine faith in vote counting or election results, and that makes it different in substance from the stuff that Trump and his people are doing.

    No, but it does undermine the elections themselves.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  79. Vladimir Putin is essentially Hitler with nukes. His aspirations are genocidal. He is a war criminal. He must be stopped.

    if you believe that, then let’s declare war on russia like we did with Hitler’s Germany

    but Biden won’t, and you won’t demand that he does it

    is it because you don’t really believe all that?

    JF (cb4f79)

  80. FWO, You may be right that if they lose they’ll ignore the rules, but they will have no problem winning by the new rules and damned if you think they shouldn’t.

    As far as lawsuits against the Compact, who has standing? A citizen cannot sue about open violations of the appropriations clause.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  81. if you believe that, then let’s declare war on russia like we did with Hitler’s Germany

    Hitler did not actually HAVE nukes. Stalin did, and we left him be.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  82. Rip,

    I know full well that the NPV is based upon 270 EVs in the Compact. That still makes what I said correct. It allows the state’s electors to be cast for the loser in the state, based upon some [help me here] report of votes in other states. It’s a typical vague leftist project when you get down to the nuts and bolts and arithmetic.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  83. I think the rude started in #3.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  84. I think the rude started in #3.
    Kevin M (eeb9e9) — 10/23/2022 @ 7:13 pm

    Patterico is our host. He was not rude to anyone in #3. Let me be the first, but not the only one here, to demand that you apologize to him. you are out of line.

    felipe (484255)

  85. “Translation: We need to continue honorably surrendering to the left…”

    Culture war debates devolve into Right/Left extremes turning everyone else off. You can’t surrender the universities, you’ve already said we lost them. You can’t surrender Hollywood, you’ve already declared them long gone. You can’t surrender the MSM, you said the Neocons gave all that away already. You’ve lost on gay marriage, abortion, nose rings, drag queens, and nudity on regular TV. The internet is a sewer waiting to swallow up your kids. The churches are emptying and the GOP has given up on character and integrity. Jerry Falwell Jr. is a shadow of his father and backed Trump to the hilt. Abortion is back to the states, but the extremes don’t know how to parse it and are missing what the majority is saying. It’s almost like these culture wars are run by Russian logistics…..

    AJ_Liberty (15d88c)

  86. Rip,

    I know full well that the NPV is based upon 270 EVs in the Compact. That still makes what I said correct. It allows the state’s electors to be cast for the loser in the state, based upon some [help me here] report of votes in other states. It’s a typical vague leftist project when you get down to the nuts and bolts and arithmetic.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9) — 10/23/2022 @ 7:12 pm

    You stated as fact that California and New Mexico currently allocate their electoral votes based on the national popular vote, which demonstrably untrue.

    Rip Murdock (a8bd31)

  87. “I think the rude started in #3.”

    Drop shovel guest.

    AJ_Liberty (15d88c)

  88. Vladimir Putin is essentially Hitler with nukes. His aspirations are genocidal. He is a war criminal. He must be stopped.

    if you believe that, then let’s declare war on russia like we did with Hitler’s Germany

    but Biden won’t, and you won’t demand that he does it

    is it because you don’t really believe all that?

    I think you missed the “with nukes” part. That might help you realize the reason better than your proposed reason, which is that I don’t actually believe what I said — which means, per my rule announced above, that I am done talking with you in this thread.

    Life is too short to talk to people who are rude. Hint: claiming I don’t actually believe what I say qualifies.

    Patterico (cf4166)

  89. 1. “Blank check” is kind of a loaded term, but it’s correct we have not given Ukraine a blank check up to now, as one commenter pointed out, we haven’t sent combat troops there or pushed NATO to do so. This may be a naively literal interpretation, but McCarthy’s statement is not much different from the status quo.
    2. Putin is an aggressor who must be stopped. We should give Ukraine enough aid so that they can, hopefully, not merely stall the Russians as they have, but push the aggressors out of Ukraine, as they seem to be doing.

    Shouldn’t the question be, what is enough aid for the Ukrainians, and not the unrealistic alternatives of either cutting it off or making it limitless?

    Sorry if I have mischaracterized anyone’s views, but since people are mainly in agreement (I think) as to what the goal should be, can’t we all, per R. King, just get along?

    RL:

    Obviously nobody supports a “blank check.” But making a point of coming out and saying “we are not giving Ukraine a blank check” is a way of sending a signal. Stuff like this matters in diplomacy. My belief is, McCarthy’s statement emboldens Putin. Who is a genocidal war criminal. So, I think McCarthy’s statement will probably cost people their lives. There really aren’t words to describe what I think of McCarthy. If I said what I really thought . . . well, let’s just say “he will probably cost innocent Ukrainians their lives” ought to be statement enough.

    What is enough aid for Ukraine? Giving them what it takes to win. Right now, that’s 1) air defense, and 2) shutting up about how there are limits to the help we will give.

    Patterico (cf4166)

  90. nk – Since you are watching Adam-12, I’ll mention something you can learn about politics and the environment from that show: Our cities, including ones with particularly difficult pollution problems like LA have cleaner air now, than they did when the show was filmed. You can often see that in Adam-12 just by looking at the background while the two officers are driving around.

    Which president deserves the most credit for that improvement in our air, which has saved thousands and thousands of lives? George H. W. Bush. But you won’t hear him mentioned at most Earth Day celebrations. (George W. Bush also made a big contribution to cleaner air, by bringing in clean diesel regulations. And, though not intended, those regulations helped bring cleaner air to Western Europe by helping expose VW’s cheating.)

    Now back to Patterico’s topics — and thanks to him for making his points so clearly.

    Jim Miller (85fd03)

  91. The current winner take all method of allocating EC votes disenfranchises the losing party’s voters in each state. How fair is that? Maybe Congress should mandate proportional allocation of EC votes.

    It certainly would make general election campaigns in one party states more competitive.

    Rip Murdock (a8bd31)

  92. What is enough aid for Ukraine? Giving them what it takes to win. Right now, that’s 1) air defense, and 2) shutting up about how there are limits to the help we will give.
    Patterico (cf4166) — 10/23/2022 @ 7:30 pm

    Absolutely right.

    felipe (484255)

  93. National Popular Vote

    Constitutional Problem #1: A voting compact between states changes the balance of federal power and will thus require congressional approval. It’s right there in the Compact Clause. That ain’t gonna happen…at least not in the current split climate.

    Constitutional Problem #2: Courts will intervene when states misuse their delegated power, effectively trying to change the Constitution without an amendment (or convention). The Electoral College, as bulky as it is, was designed by the framers for purposes greater than an overall popular vote. The design of the system is predicated on electors representing their state, not some other lofty goal.

    The Court is stacked with originalists. NPV is not going anywhere.

    AJ_Liberty (15d88c)

  94. Patterico is our host. He was not rude to anyone in #3. Let me be the first, but not the only one here, to demand that you apologize to him. you are out of line.

    OK, I misread that as a response to my 1 & 2. I’m sorry if that set everything off.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  95. You stated as fact that California and New Mexico currently allocate their electoral votes based on the national popular vote, which demonstrably untrue.

    I did not. I said it allowed them to do so. I did not state what the necessary conditions were.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  96. Patterico (cf4166) — 10/23/2022 @ 7:25 pm

    that’s fine. It’s your blog

    if nukes are a reason not to declare war, they’re also a reason not to escalate our involvement in the war

    and if putin is a genocidal war criminal who is essentially hitler, I doubt that a declaration of war is a factor as to whether or not to use nukes

    JF (a2ab0f)

  97. It’s almost like these culture wars are run by Russian logistics…..

    AJ_Liberty (15d88c) — 10/23/2022 @ 7:20 pm

    Thanks for admitting the utter failure of your political faction in this area the last 30 years. Maybe if you guys had actually bothered to put up a fight here rather than kvetch about false “left/right extremes” dichotomies, some of those losses might have been mitigated and even reversed, such as Roe. And the depths to which your desire to continue surrendering shines through in your insistence that these issues don’t matter.

    You argue that the culture wars are already lost, but if that’s the case, the reason they were lost is because you gave up on fighting them. And now you insist the only way forward is to continue to not resist the left in the cultural arena.

    Given your faction’s track record here, why should anyone on the right take you seriously?

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d)

  98. Please explain what Putin will gain by nuking Ukraine, NATO, and/or the U.S. Just saying he’s suddenly crazy and no longer the crafty KGB guy isn’t especially convincing. Same with the hard-drinking vodka swillers that ain’t ready to die for Putin’s supposed Butch-Cassidy moment. Why wouldn’t they just take him out and bring in a new guy? The oligarchs too have hopes of seeing their foreign assets one day and having their kids get educated in the west. Why give it all up and lose everything? The whole thesis is that he’s crazy…but if we give in now, why wouldn’t crazy Putin do the same exact thing with Estonia or Finland? In 6mos what will be left of his conventional forces at the current rate? Why let him off the hook?

    AJ_Liberty (15d88c)

  99. “Given your faction’s track record here, why should anyone on the right take you seriously?”

    Because you have no coherent strategy. You want to sell values, but you anchor that with a guy like Trump, who is as inauthentic and flawed as possible. You can’t persuade people with a wobbly foundation of lies, intimidation, and cruelty. You can’t make enemies of half the country and think something good is magically going to happen. You win by being more reasonable than the other side and earning power. Then you don’t over-reach and you focus on making incremental gains. You set reasonable, attainable goals. I never hear you describe a plan for success….just that it can’t be anyone that is a person of character and a natural leader. They’re always the problem…

    AJ_Liberty (15d88c)

  100. if you believe that, then let’s declare war on russia like we did with Hitler’s Germany

    Actually, ’twas ol’Adolf who declared war on the United States. Was in all the papers. 😉

    DCSCA (7ba426)

  101. In the past, politicians refrained from addressing foreign affairs so they did not muddy the US position expressed by the President.

    I get that society has changed and foreign affairs is an important part of politics. IMO Vietnam is when that changed. But it is bad to imply that a change from one party to another will result in a clear/big/meaningful change in US foreign policy. That is what McCarthy did and it implicitly invites foreigners and foreign governments to publicly take sides in our elections.

    DRJ (a6f255)

  102. And, as usual in the GOP, it probably wouldn’t do anything different than Biden is doing. McCarthy is just bloviating to get credibility with Trump supporters as a fighter. Trump is the only Republican who actually admires Putin.

    DRJ (a6f255)

  103. Because you have no coherent strategy.

    As if “give the left everything it wants” is something to follow.

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d)

  104. You win by being more reasonable than the other side and earning power. Then you don’t over-reach and you focus on making incremental gains. You set reasonable, attainable goals.

    You guys failed utterly in doing that, too. So again, given your track record, why should anyone on the right take you seriously?

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d)

  105. My belief is, McCarthy’s statement emboldens Putin.

    Don’t really believe ol’Vlad is losing sleep pondering much over Mr. McCarthy’s musings. He knows the U.S. system well and the rhetoric starts flying as the American midterms near. McCarthy’s comments were targeted for domestic consumption- he knows the audience’s he’s playing to [Tucka’s] – hence the chumming, reactive commentary on this very venue- and others.

    ‘Nuke use’ is part of basic Mother Russia defensive strategy- their ‘NATO’ so to speak. It’s all they have left w/t ‘buffer zone’ of old Warsaw Pact nations gone and the USSR broken up. Whereas the U.S. nuke policy is to maintain nukes as a deterrence. Different policy perspectives. Particularly w/Russia’s long standing paranoia of being surrounded by hostiles at all points of the compass– a fear stoked long before Putin’s time [lest you forget America’s invasion of Russia in 1918, the Nazi invasion in WW2, venomously repelled at great cost– as 1945 Berliners can attest; their monument to 25 million Russian killed in WW2 outside the Kremlin Wall a sacred monument to all Russians– and American U-2 spy planes intruding into their skies, one piloted by Gary Powers, eventually shot down creating an embarrassing international incident for Ike when he tried to deny it.] Russians have long memories.

    Putin knows how easy it is to jerk Western chains just by mentioning nukes, too. He will never use them in that immediate region unless Mother Russia itself is invaded– and he will never attack NATO as it triggers Article 5 w/an ‘appropriate’ response. [Russians inevitably remind Americans in conversation the U.S. invaded their countrr in 1918 BTW.] And Putin will remind Americans that they, have used nuclear weapons- twice– on Japan. Aside from the obvious example glowing around him- Chernobyl, rendering vast swaths of territory useless and uninhabitable w/radiation waste, radioactive fallout and so forth would be counterproductive to Putin’s goals. And, of course, the Russian arsenal has this to use with equal force, instead on nukes:

    ‘Aviation Thermobaric Bomb of Increased Power (ATBIP; Russian: Авиационная вакуумная бомба повышенной мощности, АВБПМ),nicknamed “Father of All Bombs” (FOAB; Russian: “Папа всех бомб”, Пвб), is a Russian-designed, bomber-delivered thermobaric weapon.

    The bomb is reportedly similar to the US military’s GBU-43/B Massive Ordnance Air Blast which is often unofficially called “Mother of All Bombs” derived from its official military acronym “MOAB”. This weapon would therefore be the most powerful conventional (non-nuclear) weapon in the world. However, the veracity of Russia’s claims concerning the weapon’s size and power have been questioned by US defense analysts. [Analyst, which have a poor record of late; see the debacle of the Afghanistan withdrawal for details.] The new weapon is to replace several smaller types of nuclear bombs in the Russian arsenal.‘ – source, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Father_of_All_Bombs

    Putin is no Hitler- more a self-envisioned Peter The Great who craves a return to the Russia of Soviet days. Won’t happen, but or years he has made no secret of trying. It’s China who emboldens Putin; as do any Western ‘allies’ w/firms still maintaining any level of business ties- even at a reduced or minimal level- w/Russia. Particularly those who want to keep the lights burning and the heat on as winter comes. [Yale updates the list daily– and some day this will end and commerce will start again.] Russia is China’s b-tch in the 21st century; they have his back now, buy his oil- a ubiquitous commodity once in the marketplace- fund his goods and services- control his fate more than the shadow of what once was a superpower would prefer. Simply to sustain power.

    And the actions- or inactions- of the immediate players in the region; the wealthy, fractious, energy hungry lands of modern, rebuilt, post WW2 Europe, can channel his fate as well. The Russians themselves will deal with Putin in time; just as they dealt w/Khrushchev in the humiliating aftermath of the 1962 Cuban missile crisis. The problem is one for Russia to manage, not the United States; just as the burden of managing the third kinetic conflict on the European continent is for Europe to manage, not the inflation riddled, debt burdened taxpayers of the United States. Plenty of conflicts in the world the U.S. avoids meddling in for a plethora of reasons; Google it. America ain’t the world’s policeman.

    DCSCA (7ba426)

  106. if nukes are a reason not to declare war, they’re also a reason not to escalate our involvement in the war

    And when Putin invades Alaska?

    There is a calculation in everything. If nukes are a problem for us, they’re a problem for Putin too. All he has to do is stop with the genocide and the problem goes away.

    To have it your way, the guy defending his home from an armed burglar is responsible for all the violence.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  107. This has been a powerful thread, and I thank the commenters.

    I believe everyone, with the possible exception of the gadfly, can agree that Russia should not be in Ukraine, and elections should have integrity.

    It’s the specifics where people disagree.

    Me? I think both parties are so eager to amass a winning coalition that the leaders/candidates will say outrageous things. Every vote from a kook counts, too.

    I am oddly encouraged by this short video of Kari Lake:

    https://twitter.com/KariLake/status/1582403573811318784?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1582403573811318784%7Ctwgr%5E986cbad22d0663d91bb804fcef04432a9e82ad87%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nationalreview.com%2Fcorner%2Fwhy-kari-lake-will-be-trumps-running-mate%2F

    Why? Because she’s not doubling down on the 2020 election being stolen, per se. She is just pointing out how Democrats have also engaged in election denial. I knew about Hillary’s carping, but I didn’t know that Biden’s press secretary had said Brian Kemp stole the election from Stacey Abrams.

    I find myself in the unfortunate position of deciding whether this rhetoric is tit for tat / red meat for the rubes, or whether a candidate will really try to do something like January 6th again.

    I have to weigh the probability that these Republicans will seriously and successfully pursue stolen election claims in the future (assuming Democrats don’t do the same), versus the probability that Democrats will eliminate the filibuster, pack the Supreme Court, raid my 401(k), and enact some version of the Green New Deal, kneecapping America’s economy while China and India, with a combined population roughly ten times the U.S. population, use fossil fuels like crazy.

    One thing is for sure. Without the votes of Trump supporters, Republicans are guaranteed to lose. It would be great if they all had a come to Jesus moment, and renounced Trumpism, but that’s not going to happen. Even when Trump is gone, some of his talking points will live on.

    How long should victories be ceded to the left? Until every last vestige of Trumpism is stamped out? That doesn’t seem very realistic.

    It was so much easier before Trump, when the choice was simply left or right.

    norcal (a1f318)

  108. Please explain what Putin will gain by nuking Ukraine, NATO, and/or the U.S. Just saying he’s suddenly crazy and no longer the crafty KGB guy isn’t especially convincing

    And were it so, is that not a existential reason to k.i.l.l. him.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  109. BTW, the election for governor in NM has gotten especially dirty and negative. The Democrat Governor started off negative, taking words some supporter said and claiming that her opponent said them in screeching ads. The GOP guy was initially positive, but has now gone negative, calling the governor a sexual harrasser.

    The only GOP candidate on the Trump-wuz-robbed bandwagon is the SecState candidate. With my luck he’ll be the only one that wins. I voted LP.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  110. I agree with the OP 1000%. Though to be fair I wouldn’t be fanning any culture war flames even if Putin and Trump weren’t of greater concern. It’s not the culture wars themselves I mind so much — I think both sides have valid grievances — it’s the people fighting them. As a general rule they’re so intransigent, so personally belligerent, and so sanctimonious… they make me want both sides to lose. It’s the curse of poorly served movements everywhere: the people at the top and front got there by being driven and zealous, not sympathetic or reasonable.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  111. The only GOP candidate on the Trump-wuz-robbed bandwagon is the SecState candidate. With my luck he’ll be the only one that wins. I voted LP.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9) — 10/23/2022 @ 10:24 pm

    I’m voting for the Democratic SecState candidate here in Nevada, because he blows the Trump-wuz-robbed horn too much for my taste.

    In other races, I’m voting Republican. Biden needs pushback. Divided government is good. “Gridlock” is a dirty word to many people. Not to me.

    norcal (a1f318)

  112. It was so much easier before Trump, when the choice was simply left or right.

    Now you need alignment charts.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  113. Kari lake will be evan mecham II. Mark fincham (SOS) is a fascist. Actually a nazi ;but we are not supposed to use that term to appease the sensitive. He wants to do away with mail in voting and wants armed rethugliKKKans to challenge minority democrats who are early voting. In mesa his armed rethugs already did this on friday. Kari lake campaign says native americans are blood thirsty savages who believe in human sacrifice andshouldnt be allowed to vote!(DU) (AP) (yahoo news)

    asset (6dd309)

  114. Now you need alignment charts.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9) — 10/23/2022 @ 10:34 pm

    I think the problem is social media echo chambers, where idiots reinforce each other’s idiocy. Add people like Trump and Abrams to the mix, and it becomes ridiculous real fast.

    norcal (a1f318)

  115. “Gridlock” is a dirty word to many people. Not to me.

    Yet delicious, all-American J-e-l-l-o is. 😉

    DCSCA (7ba426)

  116. Political representatives aside, do you really prefer Jello to ice cream, DCSCA? The only way that makes sense is if you are talking about Jello shots.

    norcal (a1f318)

  117. And when Putin invades Alaska?

    He can “invade Alaska” and various facets of the other 49 states w/a room full of keyboard nerds and a few $10 thumb drives loaded w/a computer virus or two. ‘Course a bug let loose in the jury-rigged systems operating Puerto Rico would be costly to the U.S. as well.

    DCSCA (7ba426)

  118. 111 not left or right ;but center corporate donor class (democrat establishment) or conservative corporate donor class that could only barely win an election by maybe winning ohio in 2004. Back then it was democrat party talking about voting machine fraud debolt voting machines. A conservative democrat trump came in with populist agenda to get working class white voters to vote for him that corporate establishment donor class republicans couldn’t get like mitt romney.

    asset (6dd309)

  119. @115. In these inflationary times???? Of course.

    DCSCA (7ba426)

  120. Asset, you seem to have a great deal of antipathy for corporations.

    Would you prefer that corporations be nationalized?

    norcal (a1f318)

  121. @116:

    You’d know.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  122. @120. So does the DoD, Kevin.

    DCSCA (7ba426)

  123. @119. Capitalist corporations are authoritarian by design, norcal, not democracies- for efficiency, cost-effectiveness and the best ROI possible.

    DCSCA (7ba426)

  124. History echoes…

    ‘In a scary precedent, just past midnight on Sept. 26 1983, the Soviet Union’s warning system detected what it thought was five U.S. intercontinental ballistic missile launches against Russia. The computers said the United States had begun a nuclear war. But Lieutenant Colonel Stanislav Petrov, a 44-year-old in a secret bunker south of Moscow, decided it was a mistake. He was later interrogated for his actions, which almost certainly avoided a nuclear war.’ – https://www.reuters.com/world/what-is-russias-policy-tactical-nuclear-weapons-2022-10-17/

    DCSCA (7ba426)

  125. @119 NO! I am a non exploitive capitalist not a socialist. The evilness of corporations must be controlled like buying political power. I own my own business a small transportation company where I am the owner operator. I compete with large corporations by being cheeper and more efficient and I exploit nobody! live my non exploitive philosophy which few other philosophers can claim.

    asset (6dd309)

  126. Many leftist I know have this idea of yeoman capitalists, where there are no corporations, just sole proprietors and small partnerships. They deny the needs of scale. Apparently ocean going transport and other large investments would be run by co-operatives or ad-hoc share ownership.

    It’s really a naive system, but it’s not worth arguing.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  127. @125 Straw man propaganda technique with red herring thrown in for good measure. I said corporations needed to be controlled not done away with, not the naive system you accuse me of advocating. Why do you want to exploit others? I think non exploitive capitalism is a better way. Adam smith in the wealth of nations said he never went into a room of capitalists where they did not conspire to fix prces! We are trying to evolve from that. I one got a call from a competitor asking me why I charged my customers so little because he got complaints from his customers comparing me to him. I told him my job is to help my customers most of which are poor and can barely afford me not make you rich. My price also allows them to put up with me which isn’t easy!

    asset (6dd309)

  128. AJ: So what is your strategy?
    FWO: “You guys failed utterly in doing that”

    AJ: What areas do you think the Right can make incremental gains?
    FWO: “You guys failed utterly in doing that”

    AJ: How is Trump an effective voice for values voters
    FWO: “You guys failed utterly in doing that”

    AJ: What is the plan for reversing/lessening the effect of higher education, Hollywood, and the MSM on culture?
    FWO: “You guys failed utterly in doing that”

    AJ: How is being more nasty in the culture war going to actually persuade people to your cause?
    FWO: “You guys failed utterly in doing that”

    AJ: What is local and what should be done nationally regarding culture?
    FWO: “You guys failed utterly in doing that”

    AJ: Did McCain and Romney lose because they didn’t talk up culture wars issues enough or was there more at play?
    FWO: Neocons, Neocons, Neocons!!!!!

    AJ: OK, this has been a great talk. I think we’re making progress…of sorts.

    AJ_Liberty (15d88c)

  129. @126 My price also allows them to put up with me which isn’t easy!

    😂

    Chris (3d25b0)

  130. TL;DR McCarthy is a crapweasel who’d sell his mother’s soul to protect his career

    I was the first to give his statement the benefit of the doubt (when Dana posted about it a few days ago) but I would not stake a plugged nickel that I was right.

    nk (bb1548)

  131. I thought taxi rates were fixed, asset.

    nk (bb1548)

  132. And as an owner/operator you are not a capitalist, non-exploitative or otherwise. You are a workman who owns his tools. If you hire an assistant to share the work, you can aspire to the status of petit bourgeois.

    And when AOC is President, and your shop is collectivized, unless there’s work for you at the collective, you will be labeled a kulak and thrown out on the roadside to starve.

    nk (bb1548)

  133. Or, more likely, you’re jiving us, and you really are, as I suspect, a long-retired schoolteacher, who gives private tutoring to supplement his pension for $25/hr, and your competitors, the young, unemployable liberal arts majors, charge $60/hr. I’ve known both kinds.

    nk (bb1548)

  134. In which case, when the Revolution comes, you will not be so lucky to be even left alone on the roadside. You will be paid a visit by the Cheka.

    nk (bb1548)

  135. Avoiding a nuclear exchange with Russia is much higher on my list of priorities than helping Ukraine win their war.
    We have no idea where on the scale from zero aid to “a blank check” will push Putin to push the button.

    Why is our government not trying to bring all sides to the negotiation table and get a peaceful resolution to the conflict?

    They had a peace agreement back in April (https://responsiblestatecraft.org/2022/09/02/diplomacy-watch-why-did-the-west-stop-a-peace-deal-in-ukraine/) but the west sent Boris Johnson over to convince Ukraine to scuttle it.

    kaf (0c6d6c)

  136. AJ_Liberty (15d88c) — 10/24/2022 @ 4:04 am

    It’s okay, AJ, it’s not like your faction ever took any responsibility for its failures over the last 30 years, why would you start now? Heck, in #84, you even did me the favor of listing some of them. I’m happy to add all the policy failures that occurred, both foreign and domestic, that took place in the same time frame, but that would just piling on at this point, and it’s not like you’d face up to them anyway.

    Smugly asking “Oh, yeah, well what’s your strategy?” is hardly demonstrating your faction’s own competence at advancing policy and defending that ground once you’ve achieved them. It’s simply a tacit admission that it’s not politically agile enough to actually execute an agenda without turning everything pear-shaped, but you certainly demonstrate the entitlement streak that you should continue to be given the reins unquestioningly despite decades of the other party eating your lunch in both the political and cultural arenas.

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d)

  137. They had a peace agreement back in April

    Classic Soviet-style dezinformatsiya put out through a Kremlin organ.

    nk (bb1548)

  138. Is J. D Vance’s lukewarm — at best — support for Ukraine hurting him with Ukrainian-Americans? Apparently.

    PARMA, Ohio — Irena Stolar has voted Republican for over half a century, from Richard M. Nixon to Donald Trump. But in the midterms, Stolar, 73, said she will cast her first vote for a Democrat. Originally from Ukraine, Stolar refuses to support J.D. Vance, the Republican nominee for U.S. Senate in Ohio, who has said he wants to cut off aid to the war-torn country.
    . . .
    There are about 41,000 people with Ukrainian heritage in Ohio, according to the Census Bureau, and many have felt the effects of Vladimir Putin’s war in Ukraine more acutely and personally than most Americans.

    I would expect it to hurt him with most other groups from eastern Europe, too, especially Polish-Americans.

    Jim Miller (85fd03)

  139. #135

    When reading your comments, it strikes me that I really have no idea what you truly want and how you imagine you are going to get there. Just that you are disatisfied and expect someone use foreceful measures to make it stop, whatever it is. Because you are a coherent writer, I believe this ambiguity is deliberate.

    Appalled (f6ffd7)

  140. @90

    The current winner take all method of allocating EC votes disenfranchises the losing party’s voters in each state. How fair is that?

    Imminently fair because it’s a popular voter per state.

    We are NOT a homogenous group of people. We are 50 entities (ie, states) that agreed to form a compact with a federal governance.

    Maybe Congress should mandate proportional allocation of EC votes.

    I don’t think they can. That would require a Constitutional amendment.

    But, if we’re changing how we allocate the EC votes, I think it’s more defensible to award them to whomever win the popular vote per congressional district.

    But to change any of that, each state would have to pass laws to do just that.

    It certainly would make general election campaigns in one party states more competitive.

    Rip Murdock (a8bd31) — 10/23/2022 @ 7:36 pm

    Potentially, but there’s a lot of hurdles those agitating for these types of changes.

    whembly (b770f8)

  141. There are two states–Nebraska and Maine as I recall–that allocate their electoral votes, so winner-take-all isn’t set in stone.
    But it’s the states that should have that choice because it’s “in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct”.

    Paul Montagu (753b42)

  142. @106

    This has been a powerful thread, and I thank the commenters.

    I believe everyone, with the possible exception of the gadfly, can agree that Russia should not be in Ukraine, and elections should have integrity.

    It’s the specifics where people disagree.

    Me? I think both parties are so eager to amass a winning coalition that the leaders/candidates will say outrageous things. Every vote from a kook counts, too.

    I am oddly encouraged by this short video of Kari Lake:

    https://twitter.com/KariLake/status/1582403573811318784?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1582403573811318784%7Ctwgr%5E986cbad22d0663d91bb804fcef04432a9e82ad87%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nationalreview.com%2Fcorner%2Fwhy-kari-lake-will-be-trumps-running-mate%2F

    Why? Because she’s not doubling down on the 2020 election being stolen, per se. She is just pointing out how Democrats have also engaged in election denial. I knew about Hillary’s carping, but I didn’t know that Biden’s press secretary had said Brian Kemp stole the election from Stacey Abrams.

    I find myself in the unfortunate position of deciding whether this rhetoric is tit for tat / red meat for the rubes, or whether a candidate will really try to do something like January 6th again.

    I have to weigh the probability that these Republicans will seriously and successfully pursue stolen election claims in the future (assuming Democrats don’t do the same), versus the probability that Democrats will eliminate the filibuster, pack the Supreme Court, raid my 401(k), and enact some version of the Green New Deal, kneecapping America’s economy while China and India, with a combined population roughly ten times the U.S. population, use fossil fuels like crazy.

    One thing is for sure. Without the votes of Trump supporters, Republicans are guaranteed to lose. It would be great if they all had a come to Jesus moment, and renounced Trumpism, but that’s not going to happen. Even when Trump is gone, some of his talking points will live on.

    How long should victories be ceded to the left? Until every last vestige of Trumpism is stamped out? That doesn’t seem very realistic.

    It was so much easier before Trump, when the choice was simply left or right.

    norcal (a1f318) — 10/23/2022 @ 10:18 pm

    Awesome post norcal.

    IMO, the way to “fight” Trumpism is to play the long game. Stick within the party by observing the immediate reality, because ultimately we don’t want Democrats in power.

    Part of the long game, is to be actively involved within the grassroots/primary aspects of any elections.

    whembly (0ae2ca)

  143. They had a peace agreement back in April

    No, they were working on a peace deal, and Putin walked away from it in May. The Putin wing of the GOP always seems to neglect that final detail.

    Paul Montagu (753b42)

  144. OK, I misread that as a response to my 1 & 2. I’m sorry if that set everything off.

    When I left #3 I thought it was the first comment in the thread. The “Hello there” was my typical “here is a comment to draw people’s attention to the thread” style comment. I guess I had not refreshed the site for a few minutes before leaving it. Reading your comment above was my first time noticing that there had been two comments before mine.

    None of which makes me want to have any more interchanges with you in this thread. As I say: I’m done with responding to rudeness. But I thought I would clear up what appears to have been a misunderstanding.

    Patterico (a6f1b9)

  145. I have no idea how to promote good manners on your blog, Patterico, but I appreciate what you have created and try to do.

    There are many good commenters who have certainly been kind to me (including Kevin and nk, among others). But I believe in the “broken windows” model of the internet; a few unpleasant people can have quite a negative effect on a larger group. Again, I have no idea how to make things better.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  146. Avoiding a nuclear exchange with Russia is much higher on my list of priorities than helping Ukraine win their war.

    Putin gets more aggressive when the West displays weakness. The best way to keep him from using nukes is to show strength, not to give in to nuclear blackmail.

    Patterico (58ae3c)

  147. At this point Putin wants a peace deal that gives him all the annexed territories and allows him to lick his wounds and regroup.

    Ukraine should be the ones to decide and their answer is no.

    We should support that. And McCarthy should STFU. The issue isn’t even entirely whether the GOP will fund Ukraine; it’s also what he says about it right now. The hints of caving to Matt “Butthead” Gaetz are written all over the wall.

    Patterico (58ae3c)

  148. “Just that you are disatisfied and expect someone use foreceful measures to make it stop, whatever it is. Because you are a coherent writer, I believe this ambiguity is deliberate.”

    Exactly. Each and every time FWO broaches the culture war topic, there’s a whole lot of lashing out at conventional Republicans for losing ground….or more directly….surrendering ground. But, when push comes to shove, there’s no attempt to describe what he exactly wants to happen….just that Neocons must suffer and the next wave must be fighters….whatever that really means. FWO isn’t shy and doesn’t lack the words to communicate his vision, he is purposefully evading it. I think we can guess why.

    There’s a lot that has changed over the past 60 years. Some of it quite good…how we treat minorities, opportunities for women, life expectancy has surged with medicine improving the quality of that life, acceptance for gays, and amazing technology that now puts information and entertainment at our fingertips near instantaneously. Though we also saw greater family breakdown, more difficulty making ends meet with only one parent working, and consequently neighborhoods changing. Child care is a perennial blue-collar issue, as is affording college for our increasingly knowledge-based economy. Conservatives favor tax credits and tapping into market forces; liberals favor social programs and regulation. It’s the mommy and daddy personality of our society….bootstraps vs the village. We all have our opinion about what combination is appropriate and our own nostalgia for how it used to be. The question is getting back to a point where we remember that there’s more that binds us together than drives us apart. We choose much of the latter. I’m for more civil discussion and less futile mud slinging…..

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  149. Try to scroll past it Simon. Unfortunately most of your recent comments seem to be hyper focused on the bad seeds you seek out.

    Just cut loose on the topic and the good guys will flock to the subject at hand and you will overwhelm these bad seeds and never again think about only commenting on perceived negative effects.

    A version of overwhelming with kindness.

    The hosts do an incredible job of getting rid of the negativity, (with the exception of nk whom I simply blocked), which frees the time to post real thought provoking insight.

    Good luck, Simon! Be well.

    BuDuh (eaef9b)

  150. Simon, AJ summed it up very eloquently after a brief departure:

    I also took to heart Dana’s comments @312 and the other suggestions about maintaining a thicker skin. It’s probably true and it’s anti-troll 101. I need to go back to internet-school. I remember Beldar, one of my previous favorites, leaving in a similar huff…never to return. Why let the troll win? The key, as always, is to avoid bad-faith discussions and bad-faith commenters…period. I’ll consider the blocking script, maybe on a trial basis. A “gapped” thread can still be coherent, right? And its deliciously antagonizing for a troll to lose audience. So, done with conversations that were never “real” conversations. Life is short. The Dispatch is good, hardly a bubble, but it also has a less intimate vibe. Different but there are interesting conversations, more content, and fewer performance artists. And of course Beldar and Patterico are there. So maybe some mix…time allowing, and stop pretending that old dogs can change…they don’t. They’re creatures of habit….and some people will never be better…..

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3) — 10/18/2022 @ 8:23 am

    Don’t let them get you so down in the dumps, buddy. Post really great comments to let them know you aren’t giving up on this comment section and do your best to not even acknowledge them. Trust AJ on this one.

    BuDuh (eaef9b)

  151. Thank you, BuDuh…I am just getting old and crotchety, I guess.

    The thing that bothers me most is the flexible yardstick that everyone seems to use these days. Some people caper about crowing about awful things (as you note), but that doesn’t help anything. But then, the caperers are doing so not to convince or persuade or even present ideas…but just to overstate and “own” people with whom they disagree. But even the reasonable get pushed into extreme positions nowadays.

    I would like to think that folks have an internal set of standards; a list of what they believe, and why.

    Nowadays, everyone seems more reactive than anything else.

    My friends on the Left? Everyone who differs from them is a fascist or Nazi. I have to shake my head. I remember folks on the Left gibbering about Romney (including our current POTUS, saying he was going to put “y’all back in chains”).

    Good Lord above. You can dislike him as a politician, but he is hardly an awful human being.

    So many people on the Left are forced to accept awful people because the Right must not get into power.

    My friends on the Right? A mirror image.

    This is why I have pretty much given up on the Party system as we know it; both sides are actively pushing for extremism. But they are not pushing for extremism trying to do anything, so much as oppose the “other side.”

    This is why I think we all need to take a breath, and commit to a few things.

    1. Some people are fine human beings, but should never be in political office.
    2. Some politicians do a good job, but are horrible human beings.
    3. Sometimes, the choice is between something crappy, and something slightly less crappy.

    It should be fine to say a politician might be awesome to their family, but a horrible choice for office. We need to disagree with others without hating, sneering, or “owning” them. We don’t like it when “the other side” does it; why is it okay when we do so?

    I believe our current system and its parasitic and endless social media tentacles, like us all to be at one another’s throats.

    That saddens me.

    So I try to focus on what I believe, and why. And look for candidates who share that…rather than just opposing the “other guy/gal.”

    I also believe that the media no longer depicts much of anything objectively; it’s all sound bites to support or detract.

    I think I need to go re-read Augustine’s “City of God.” It will give me better perspective.

    I hope that everyone has a fine day. We are all so much luckier than we deserve, are we not?

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  152. Someone reminded me that Patterico has a stressful job, made more stressful by an, um, unhelpful boss. I remember my time in a high-pressure job when the company president was replaced by the Board with an incompetent jerk who made everyone’s job much harder. So, I’m gonna back off here.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  153. Kevin, I always appreciate your posts, whether or not I agree with you on a given subject. Thank you.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  154. @151. You want high pressure? Try 3 PM deadlines, daily, in a 24/7, 365 news cycle.

    DCSCA (7ba426)

  155. 60 Years Ago Today – October 24, 1962: The Cuban Missile Crisis; tick-tock, tick-tock

    The fuse burns shorter and shorter…

    October 24, 1962 was a critical day in the unfolding of the Cuban Missile Crisis, a tense 13-day confrontation between the U.S. and the USSR that nearly provoked a nuclear war. On this day, Soviet ships heading for Cuba approached a blockade [officially designated a quarantine line] of U.S. vessels enacted by President Kennedy. The naval blockade around Cuba was intended to prevent the Soviets from delivering more military equipment and missiles. Once news of the missiles and Kennedy’s response was made public, Americans and people around the world waited anxiously for the response of the Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev.

    Fortunately, when the Soviet ships approached the American naval blockade on October 24th, they stopped rather than attempting to breach it. If they had, this action would have been met with military confrontation and could have quickly escalated into nuclear warfare [Later assessments after ther crisis was defused revealed Soviet submarines w/nuclear tipped torpedoes were at the ready to sink American vessels.] Although a battle at sea was narrowly avoided, the missiles installed on Cuban land still posed a large problem for the Americans, and the tension between the two parties continued in the days following the blockade.

    Chairman Khrushchev replied indignantly to President Kennedy’s October 23 letter stating in part:

    “You, Mr. President, are not declaring a quarantine, but rather are setting forth an ultimatum and threatening that if we do not give in to your demands you will use force. Consider what you are saying! And you want to persuade me to agree to this! What would it mean to agree to these demands? It would mean guiding oneself in one’s relations with other countries not by reason, but by submitting to arbitrariness. You are no longer appealing to reason, but wish to intimidate us.”

    https://microsites.jfklibrary.org/cmc/oct24/
    https://todayinhistory.org/10/24/cuban-missile-crisis-soviet-ships

    DCSCA (7ba426)

  156. @134. Why is our government not trying to bring all sides to the negotiation table and get a peaceful resolution to the conflict?

    The late Hal Holbrook summed that up nicely some years back:

    “Forget the myths the media’s created about the White House. The truth is, these are not very bright guys, and things got out of hand.”- Deep Throat [Hal Holbrook] ‘All The President’s Men’ 1976

    DCSCA (7ba426)

  157. The GOP’s rampant election denialism may have some roots in an earlier fixation on fears of voter fraud (and occasionally some legitimate concerns), but today it’s mostly a product of a sociopathic narcissist’s wounded ego and his refusal to acknowledge any defeat as legitimate, which he made clear in public before the election.

    We have evidence that he and his allies planned to exploit the red mirage and the trash-talking of vote-by-mail to keep him in power regardless of the election result.

    We have evidence that he made various specific claims about fraud after his own aides told him they were false or at least not supported by any known facts.

    We’ve learned that even John Eastman advised him not to sign his name to a certain claim in a court filing because it was not factual, but he did it anyway.

    As Chris Krebs observed, the 2020 election has been the most scrutinized and investigated one in U.S. history. And the Trumpites haven’t found the evidence of massive fraud they still insist is an undeniable fact. They feel that the election was rigged, and their narcissistic cult leader feels aggrieved — and their feelings don’t care about facts.

    Some in the GOP might not fully accept the “rigged election” narrative, but say “the Dems have bad policies – binary choice!’ while they endorse and vote for R. candidates with a demonstrated willingness to use any means they can to overturn elections that don’t go as they wish.

    Those people are basically voting to crash the system that allows them to affect policy by voting for the candidates or the party they prefer. Maybe they think nothing matters except advancing the specific policies they want in the present. Perhaps they have too little imagine to realize that endorsing and normalizing “by any means necessary” incentivizes people with policies they dislike to respond in kind. And even a candidate (or losing incumbent) they currently favor might become quite indifferent to their wishes or interests given the tools to hold on to power regardless of what the voters decide.

    Radegunda (73404f)

  158. #88

    I didn’t like McCarthy’s “no blank check” statement and realize it could be taken as a signal by Putin of diminished US resolve, but didn’t consider it a very important signal, as (1) McCarthy also said, I think, that “Ukraine is important” or words that might be taken to mean that we’re not considering withdrawing support for them and (2) as far as I know nether McCarthy nor any other responsible US leader is talking about either reducing aid or ending sanctions. Maybe that’s naive and Putin is looking for any signal he can find as he gets more desperate, but absent anything else McCarthy’s statement seemed more like a badly-worded political comment during a campaign than anything reprehensible. I didn’t see it as a signal like the famous speech by Dean Acheson in 1950 that omitted S. Korea as territory the US would defend and which may have led to the Korean War, but could easily be wrong. Hopefully the Russian military will continue to crumble and maybe make this question academic.

    #153

    A long time ago, working for the “Mid-Atlantic” regional bureau of UPI (when it was still a real wire service) we had deadlines of basically every half-hour to put DC, VA and MD news on the wire for newspaper and broadcast customers. A lot of it was radio-wire copy for “rip and read” stations where they would take the paper right off the teletype and read the news on the air, you hoped not to cringe if you tuned in and heard something you’d written earlier that day. That was stressful, but after a while you got used to it.

    RL formerly in Glendale (48bc71)

  159. In this hypothetical you have to choose one:

    Someone who questions the results of the 2020 election or someone who is ok with an abortion hours before natural birth.

    I will go first and respect the hypothetical as the only information we have on the candidates in a mediatory vote election where “none of the above,” as well as ridiculous will never win candidates are not an option.

    I will begrudgingly vote for the person who has questions about the 2020 election.

    BuDuh (c9f752)

  160. …in a mandatory vote election…

    BuDuh (c9f752)

  161. A third issue I would identify in the upcoming election is:
    How much lawlessness are candidates willing to defend when it’s done by their own side?

    When people try to make Trump into the victim of his own efforts to stay in power unlawfully, and of his shockingly reckless theft of classified documents and willful refusal to return them, they demonstrate that they don’t believe it’s important for leaders in government to follow the law as long as their policies are preferred over the other side.

    Radegunda (73404f)

  162. The issue isn’t about a person who “questions the results”, because he never questioned the results, he declared that he won based on zero evidence, based on a big fat lie.
    Rather, the issue is about a person who undermined our republic by trying to overturn state popular votes, who tried to a strong-arm a vice president into violating the 12th Amendment and the Electoral Count Act, and who had the singular authority and influence to stop a riot that disrupted a Constitutional proceeding, but instead fanned the flames of said riot when he condemned his VP in a tweet.
    For me, I’ll choose our democracy over a particular policy, any day that ends in “y”.

    Paul Montagu (753b42)

  163. Paul cannot figure out the hypothetical.

    BuDuh (c9f752)

  164. Malcontents and ne’er-do-wells do not coalesce. Their own nature prevents it.

    The GOP should have frozen Trump out completely after 1/6. Denied him all recognition, denied him any access to the Party machinery.

    Trump would never, in a thousand karmic incarnations, have been able to form his own organization and keep his election-denying shooflies together. They would have drifted back to whatever they buzz around, and many, if not most, would have drifted back around election time to vote against abortion, transgender bathrooms, and gluten-free cheesecake.

    It was a suicidal blunder for the GOP to keep them together, inside the Party, to continue to be an embarrassment to the species.

    nk (2d1664)

  165. School shooting, 2 dead. Three if you count the shooter. I note this about the police response:

    “Upon hearing gunfire, they ran to that gunfire, located the shooter and engaged that shooter in exchange of gunfire,” he said. “The suspect was struck and transported from this location. And that suspect has since been pronounced deceased. At this time, no officers are injured.”

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/st-louis-school-shooting-leaves-at-least-two-dead-11666631811?mod=hp_lead_pos12

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  166. who tried to a strong-arm a vice president into violating the 12th Amendment and the Electoral Count Act

    Is this the Vice President you are referencing?

    Vice President Mike Pence said Monday that the case for widespread election fraud would be made to the American people when Congress meets this week to certify President-elect Joe Biden’s victory over President Trump.

    “We’ve all got our doubts about the last election. I share the concerns of millions of Americans about voting irregularities,” Pence said at an indoor congregation at Rock Springs Church in Milner, Ga., in support of Republican Sens. Kelly Loeffler and David Perdue in runoff elections there.

    Pence, who by law will be tasked with declaring a winner of the Electoral College vote, seemed to leave open the possibility that Trump could still remain in power for a second term.

    “Come this Wednesday,” he said, referring to the impending certification of election results, “we’ll have our day in Congress. We’ll hear the evidence.”

    https://news.yahoo.com/at-georgia-rally-pence-says-america-will-hear-the-evidence-of-election-fraud-on-jan-6-193148658.html

    🧐

    BuDuh (c9f752)

  167. Here is a clip where Pence advocates “fighting” over the “illegal votes.”:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j47cGsSFUeE

    BuDuh (c9f752)

  168. People who say that the NPV isn’t about altering elections are not being honest. It’s about moving more power into the big cities where the Democrats are strong, and where large numbers of folks can be swayed with the least amount of money.

    If you really feel that the unit-rule EV calculations are wrong, break up the huge states into smaller states. I think we’d all be better off if no state had more than 10 million people in it. Five million would be better, but LA County would be an issue.

    That would also fix the Senate thing some. Letting big states persist, but giving them more senators fails for all the reasons a slate election fails.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  169. BuhDuh,

    There’s a difference in letting the objections be heard, and in unilaterally declaring them valid (which was what Trump wanted).

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  170. How much lawlessness are candidates willing to defend when it’s done by their own side?

    There are always yahoos willing to “protect” elections. Whether it’s white folk in Phoenix or black folk in Philly, it happens. It’s one of the reasons why the Electoral College’s firewall function is so useful.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  171. Sure, Kevin. I agree. You have made my case that person A in the hypothetical that stumped Paul does not have to be Trump as badly as Paul needs it to be Trump.

    Person A’s only attribute that is known is that they have questions about the 2020 election and Person B’s only attribute that is known is that they want abortions legal up to the moment before birth.

    (I guess it went without saying in my mind that person A rejects late term abortion and person B has no questions about 2020; so now I am saying it)

    BuDuh (c9f752)

  172. Paul cannot figure out the hypothetical.

    I try to avoid hypoetheticals as much as possible, BuDuh. The recent real life situation in 2020 went well beyond mere questioning, but I doubt Trump’s actions would’ve affected your choice anyway, right? Policy over democracy, no?

    As for your YouTube of Pence, funny that it was a clip of a 12/17/2020 speech, which was prior to Trump’s strong-arming tactics, and thankfully he came to his senses when it counted.

    Paul Montagu (753b42)

  173. When davethehulu wasn’t egregiously fake quoting whembly, to make it seem as though whembly called for the murder of political opponents, he actually did some math that could be seen as useful. He wasn’t happy with a great many teachers being lumped in with a scant few criminals.

    I posted something analogous:

    “Teachers spreadin’ teh love…

    https://nypost.com/2022/10/14/nearly-270-k-12-educators-arrested-on-child-sex-crimes-in-first-9-months-of-this-year/”

    There are an estimated 3.2 million public school teachers in the country, meaning the arrests compiled by Fox News Digital make up only 0.0084%.

    Wow.

    Davethulhu (129a95) — 10/17/2022 @ 8:58 pm

    To put that number in perspective, 30% of children who are sexually abused are abused by family members.

    Davethulhu (129a95) — 10/17/2022 @ 9:47 pm

    ************

    Over 74 million votes for Trump and “more than 2000*” entered the Capitol on Jan 6.

    .0027%?!?

    Wow.

    * https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_6_United_States_Capitol_attack

    BuDuh (326776) — 10/18/2022 @ 3:21 am

    It seems the enormous Trump voting remainder, who did not participate in any illegal activities, are being slammed for 1st amendment protected thought crimes.

    It seems like a terrible precedent.

    BuDuh (c9f752)

  174. I try to avoid hypoetheticals as much as possible, BuDuh.

    People usually do when the answer causes their other arguments to crumble. I don’t blame you.

    BuDuh (c9f752)

  175. funny that it was a clip of a 12/17/2020 speech, which was prior to Trump’s strong-arming tactics,

    That is a wonderful segue to my 11:34. I wish I would have seen it prior to hitting post.

    You condemn people who voted for Trump on 11/03/2022 well before Pence’s speech but give Pence a pass because it was prior to Trump’s “strong-arming.” Quite a ridiculous stance.

    BuDuh (c9f752)

  176. You skipped a link or I am confused on exactly when the strong-arming took place, Paul. The fight clip was from December 2020 but the “We’ve all got our doubts about the last election. I share the concerns of millions of Americans about voting irregularities” Pence quote is from Jan 3rd 2021.

    BuDuh (c9f752)

  177. “Is this the Vice President you are referencing?”

    Something happened that made him reconsider his position.

    Then some not very nice people called for his execution.

    Davethulhu (129a95)

  178. A long time ago, working for the “Mid-Atlantic” regional bureau of UPI (when it was still a real wire service) we had deadlines of basically every half-hour to put DC, VA and MD news on the wire for newspaper and broadcast customers. A lot of it was radio-wire copy for “rip and read” stations where they would take the paper right off the teletype and read the news on the air, you hoped not to cringe if you tuned in and heard something you’d written earlier that day. That was stressful, but after a while you got used to it.

    Yep. Rip and read, short burst machine gun copy. It’s a relentless pace and burnout can come fast. And once you exit that pressurized stress bubble in career moves, it can take months for your health and metabolism to return to what most folks consider ‘normal.’ It’s a relentlessly fast paced ‘fun’ working environment; especially for the young– and when the teletypes rang; ‘breaking news’ events were always a rush to the self and the system. Just like you see in the movies. Like swinging at a pitching machine hurling fastball at you for hours on end; you get used to it– but consume way too much coffee and, back in the day, watch colleagues chain-smoke and “eat” lunches at their desks as they clatter at keyboards- typewriter or computer.

    DCSCA (1dd66c)

  179. Paul, here is the January 2021 speech days before the 6th:

    https://www.c-span.org/video/?507700-1/vice-president-pence-campaigns-georgia-republican-senators-perdue-loeffler

    You can skip to the 26min mark, or so, to hear what Pence promises to get the crowd riled up.

    If you want to start at the beginning you can catch him heaping praise upon Trump.

    BuDuh (c9f752)

  180. From:Julia Davis
    @JuliaDavisNews
    ·
    17h
    Meanwhile in Russia: genocidal denials of the Ukrainian identity from the host and his guest. They claim that Ukrainians are just mentally ill Russians, whom they will “cure” once Russia wins. They propose destroying all Holodomor memorials. They discuss killing Americans.

    https://twitter.com/i/status/1584365167176871936

    Something tells me the cure is way worse than the disease

    steveg (e8c973)

  181. @129. Kevin McCarthy, who Liz Cheney [Neocon Daughter Darth] called the ‘leader of the pro-Putin wing’ of the GOP, has developed a reputation for desperate power grabs: ‘He’s willing to sacrifice everything for his own political gain’

    You mean THIS Kevin McCarthy????

    Meet the GOP’s “Young Guns”

    The self-proclaimed “Young Guns” began plotting their rise just as many Republicans feared the party was doomed.

    But Eric Cantor, Kevin McCarthy and Paul Ryan, three young House Republicans, had a plan to move the party away from the dusty establishment and into the 21st century.

    “They fancied themselves the new Reagan revolution, but they represented a conservatism that Ronald Reagan never even attempted,” said Jackie Calmes, who covered their rise for The New York Times. “And it was an uncompromising conservatism, when in fact, as we remember, Ronald Reagan compromised many times. … They represent the face of a Republican Party that has moved ever-rightward as the base of the party moved South and West.”

    The Young Guns created a model for candidates who shared their values that explained the steps that they could take to running for office. They set up a website, wrote a book, and started looking for strong candidates who could run for office and take back the House in 2010.

    The trio also produced an ad, bedecked with American flags, that critiques the gridlock in Washington and promises a “better way.” Each Gun contributed a set of skills that, when combined, would allow them to become arguably the most influential triumvirate in Washington.

    THE STRATEGIST: Rep. Kevin McCarthy, California; majority whip

    Well-liked and trusted by many House Republicans, McCarthy had an eye for recruiting new talent outside of traditional beltway politics. He helped find many of the 87 when he was nearly a freshman himself, having served only two terms by the time the House flipped in 2010. “He understood that you couldn’t send to Washington the same old political crap and expect them to get elected, that you had to find people who came from outside the world of politics if you really wanted to seize that majority,” Frank Luntz, a Republican strategist, told FRONTLINE.

    Gregarious and friendly, McCarthy spent time with the freshmen, heading out on early-morning bike rides and holding pizza parties in his office. His closely cultivated relationships meant that he knew better than Boehner or Cantor where the votes would fall when it came time to count them.

    What They’ve Done

    As they [Cantor, McCarthy & Ryan] saw the Tea Party anger forming, the Young Guns sensed an opportunity to capitalize on the grassroots movement in a way the Republican establishment did not. Kevin McCarthy, for example, was the one who first took Boehner to a Tea Party gathering in April 2010 to show him the power the movement had gathered.

    The Young Guns decided to bring some of that Tea Party anger to the House. They set up a SuperPAC, the YG Action Fund, and they found new candidates to support, many of whom had never been in office before. They spent time in local districts and taught them the basics of running a campaign. The Young Guns said that 62 of the 90 candidates they backed in 2010 were elected to the House, helping to form the base of a new Republican majority.

    “A number of the freshmen really felt like they owed McCarthy and Ryan and Cantor for this,” Jason Zengerle, a contributing editor at New York magazine and GQ told FRONTLINE. “They were accessible at all times. Cantor would call them on the phone nightly to check in: ‘How was your day? How’s the money? How’s the fundraising going? How’s your family holding up?’ So that by the time these guys got to the Hill, they didn’t maybe know John Boehner, but they knew Cantor because they’d been talking to him all the time, and he had been just absolutely generous with his time in trying to help them get elected.”

    Because of their investments and their own ideology, the Young Guns understood the Tea Party in a way that the Republican establishment didn’t. McCarthy started holding what came to be called “listening sessions” on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday nights for any of the 87 freshmen who cared to come. Ryan taught them about his budget, and listened to their concerns. They discussed any major bill the leadership thought would be controversial. They talked about the implication of the debt ceiling.

    In a sign of the Guns’ growing influence, Boehner backed Ryan’s budget when he assumed the speakership. “John Boehner blessed what Paul Ryan did,” Calmes, The New York Times reporter, told FRONTLINE. “It’s a reflection of just how powerful this group of younger, more militant and ideologically conservative members [was]…”

    https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/meet-the-gops-young-guns/

    And what was Neocon Daughter Darth up to in the 2010 time frame?

    In 2009 Daughter Darth and Bill Kristol founded Keep America Safe, a nonprofit organization concerned with national security issues, which advocated the Bush–Cheney administration’s positions. Neocon Daughter Darth, along with neocons William Kristol, and Deborah Burlingame launched, as board members, the nonprofit 501(c) organization Keep America Safe. The group’s stated purpose [was] to “provide information for concerned Americans about critical national security issues”. It drew strong criticism from conservative lawyers, many of whom had worked for the Bush administration, after its campaign against “The Al Qaeda 7”, seven Justice Department lawyers in the Obama administration who previously had worked as defense lawyers for Guantanamo detainees. Shortly after, all information about the organization disappeared from the Internet.

    In January 2012, Neocon Daughter Darth was hired as a contributor for Fox News. She guest-hosted programs such as Hannity and Fox News Sunday. The network terminated her contract in July 2013 after she announced her intention to mount a 2014 bid for the Senate in Wyoming.

    Neocon Daughter Darth was expected to receive strong fundraising, but was subject to public perceptions of carpetbagging, having lived in Wyoming only a few years as a child before purchasing a home there in 2012. When she launched her 2014 Senate campaign, she did it with a Facebook post geotagged to McLean, Virginia, her primary residence at the time. During that campaign, The New Republic columnist Jon Ward wrote, “she talked up her Wyoming roots and dressed in boots. But when I chatted with her at one stop, her jeans were so new that her hands were stained blue from touching them.” In the video announcing her candidacy, she noted that the Cheney family first came to Wyoming in 1852. Her father, (ex-Dubya VP Daddy Darth,) represented Wyoming in the House from 1979 to 1989.] Her campaign was marred by criticism from her championing of “hawkish” foreign policy positions to a public spat with her sister over her opposition to same-sex marriage. On January 6, 2014, Neocon Daughter Darth announced her withdrawal from the race, citing family health issues. [A quitter.]

    After incumbent Cynthia Lummis announced her retirement in the fall of 2015, Cheney announced she was considering running for her seat in 2016. On February 1, 2016, Cheney announced her candidacy for Wyoming’s House seat. She was widely considered the front-runner, and a poll commissioned by the Casper Star-Tribune and Wyoming PBS showed her leading in the Republican primary – the real contest in this heavily Republican state. Russian-American oil tycoon Simon Kukes contributed to her campaign. She was elected with over 60% of the vote.

    Cheney lost the August 16, 2022, Republican primary to pro-Trump candidate Harriet Hageman, with 28.9% of the vote to Hageman’s 66.3%. Her margin of defeat was the second-worst for a House incumbent in the last 60 years, behind that of South Carolina Republican Bob Inglis in a 2010 primary runoff.

    From 2017 to 2021, Neocon Daughter Darth voted in line with Trump’s position around 93% of the time, supporting him more consistently in House votes than many House Republican members, even his former chief of staff Mark Meadows. In 2019, according to the New York Times, Neocon Daughter Darth publicly feuded with Rand Paul over who was “Trumpier” [go figure.] According to The Atlantic, she was a “loyal Trumpist” and helped build “the party of Trump” at that time. – source, wikibio

    These days she’s a popular breakfast menu item at every Wyoming Denny’s outside of Jackson Hole: Toast w/a side order of toast. After a decade or so, we know the fate of Ryan and Cantor… and now, Neocon Daughter Darth.

    McCarthy is your lone gun still standing; locked– and loaded. Do not forsake him lil’darlin’s…

    “This is crazy, I don’t even have any guns.” – Will Kane [Gary Cooper] ‘High Noon’ 1952

    DCSCA (1dd66c)

  182. People usually do when the answer causes their other arguments to crumble. I don’t blame you.

    Nah, I didn’t like your phony rules, so I went with reality.

    Paul Montagu (753b42)

  183. Paul, here is the January 2021 speech days before the 6th:

    So what. It doesn’t negate Trump’s trying to strong-arm Pence into pissing on the Constitution.

    Paul Montagu (753b42)

  184. Yawn.

    BuDuh (c9f752)

  185. Liberals urge Biden to rethink Ukraine strategy

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/10/24/biden-ukraine-liberals/

    Hope the Russians don’t see this as weakness.

    BuDuh (c9f752)

  186. From 2017 to 2021, Neocon Daughter Darth voted in line with Trump’s position around 93% of the time

    I think this counts noncontroversialbills.

    What is the percentage for Bernie Sanders?

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  187. 165. Pence was stringing Trump along.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  188. Pence was trying to help Purdue win.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  189. The GOP has some isolationists that will always register disagreement over foreign aid of any kind and get hyperagitated about any hint of global intervention.
    Some Americans, myself included, support sending weapons to Ukraine. I realize even weapons support $$ get murky. I’ve read that soviet era 152MM and other ammunition/parts,weapons that can be used for spare parts have been sourced around the globe by western intelligence. This translates into the Smugglers Blues “lots of shady characters, lots of dirty deals”. I think the real waste is likely to be the money that the party in charge funnels to cronies. Consulting fees, management fees, pork, feathers for various nests.

    I side with McCarthy on “no blank check” but think the US needs to provide weapons to Ukraine that can reach Russian fuel and ammunition depots; troop and equipment collection points, forward helicopter bases that are outside the reah of HIMARS and think that can be a consistent stance.
    We can acquire and provide support to Ukraine AND provide for good accounting to the US taxpayer, but the crooks/parasites both in and out of the government always says its impossible to do both

    steveg (e8c973)

  190. Paul, I don’t know that it is worth arguing with people who want to pretend the attempted coup is just another partisan thing to lob bullshit arguments about. I am increasingly of the kind that I will interact only with adults, and only those adults who act like adults. I am seeing a lot in this thread that does not fit that description.

    Patterico (58ae3c)

  191. @134 and @184:

    Right now neither side wants peace, and any peace agreement imposed on Ukraine from the outside will only spawn more hatred and accusations of “selling out” to the enemy. Ukraine has no incentive because of their battlefield successes (and any surrender of territory to Russia would mean all the suffering was for nothing); and Russia (I mean Putin) has no incentive because it would show weakness and any compromise could lead to his overthrow.

    The fact that liberal Democrats are part of a surrender caucus is no surprise.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  192. Liberals urge Biden to rethink Ukraine strategy
    …….
    Hope the Russians don’t see this as weakness.

    BuDuh (c9f752) — 10/24/2022 @ 12:50 pm

    Most of them are backbenchers (and members of the Progressive Caucus) and not committee chairs.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  193. Hope the Russians don’t see this as weakness.

    BuDuh (c9f752) — 10/24/2022 @ 12:50 pm

    Most of them are backbenchers (and members of the Progressive Caucus) and not committee chairs.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 10/24/2022 @ 1:15 pm

    Weakness? This is what Russia wants. They’re gleeful.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  194. looks like we’re now allowed to blame someone other than Putin for the war and ukrainian lives lost, as long as it’s McCarthy and republicans

    JF (4ed316)

  195. Ye being cancelled.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  196. Patterico (58ae3c) — 10/24/2022 @ 1:08 pm

    I can’t argue that. 🙂

    Paul Montagu (753b42)

  197. Georgia Voters Shatter Second Presidential Turnout Record on Saturday

    Georgia voters continued to hit record breaking turnout on the first mandatory Saturday of Early Voting. As of Sunday morning, approximately 740K Georgia voters have cast their ballot during in-person Early Voting, with a whopping 79,682 showing up on Saturday, October 22nd. Saturday’s total marks an astounding 159% increase from day six of 2018 midterm Early Voting and shattered the turnout record of day six of Early Voting in the 2020 Presidential election by 20%.

    Georgia has had record Early Voting turnout since the first day of Early Voting this year, surging to nearly twice the number on the first day of Early Voting in 2018. …….
    ………

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  198. @130 not in my state.

    asset (93c156)

  199. Paul, I don’t know that it is worth arguing with people who want to pretend the attempted coup is just another partisan thing to lob bullshit arguments about.

    I agree. But that only explains a good strategy for the created caricature that Paul directs his arguments toward.

    BuDuh (25a8b8)

  200. Moderation?

    BuDuh (25a8b8)

  201. 196. There’s what is called in statistics a “secular trend” toward more absentee voting,

    By the way, in New York State, the Republican Party issuing to invalidate most absentee voting. They have a case.

    The stqte constitution provides only limited reasons for absentee voting and it is extremely difficult and time consuming to amend.

    In 2020,Governor Andrew Cuomo declared that (avoiding) Covid would be considered a valid temporary medical condition. Now, you can’t keep saying that, even if the state legislature pases alaw saying so. It’s not true.

    This may effect at least whether people who voted by mail can vote on Election Day. Previously, ballots cast in person trumped those sent by mail, and absentee ballots were only counted after all other ballots had been checked. When absentee ballots exploded it took days and weeks to get the results. Now absentee ballots take priority, although anyone can cast an affidavit ballot as insurance against it not arriving, or being rejected, and those affidavit ballots are examined and counted last.

    https://spectrumlocalnews.com/nys/central-ny/politics/2022/10/21/covid-19-as-reason-to-vote-by-mail-in-ny-rests-with-higher-court

    A New York state Supreme Court justice in Saratoga County ruled a new state law that allowed absentee ballots to be counted on Election Day is unconstitutional while the decision to overturn COVID-19 as a reason to vote by mail rests with a higher court.

    It means local boards of elections must preserve, or put aside, the absentee ballots they receive and hold them for later review.

    The state Conservative and Republican parties led this challenge to the law, expanded in wake of the pandemic….

    ,,,,Absentee ballots already requested or mailed out are unaffected.

    Voters can still request a mail-in ballot for temporary illness or COVID-19. That state rule sunsets at the end of the year, regardless of legal challenges.

    And voting rights advocates want people to know Friday’s ruling will not change anything for New Yorkers who wish to vote by mail this election.

    “I don’t want people to be discouraged,” said Susan Lerner, executive director of Common Cause New York. “You can still get an absentee ballot. It will ultimately be counted, whether it’s going to be counted this week or in a month. You still can vote absentee.”

    https://www.timesunion.com/state/article/GOP-absentee-ballot-case-moves-forward-17525007.php

    State Supreme Court Justice Dianne L. Freestone’s decision stopped short of overturning a change in Election Law that allows someone to vote by absentee ballot if they fear contracting COVID-19, a measure that she highly criticized but said could not be undone at this time….Freestone characterized the new rules that allow for anyone fearful of contracting COVID-19 to vote by an absentee ballot as illegitimate under state law. But she noted existing precedent on that part of Election Law prevents her from striking down the excuse to vote by mail.

    But she did overturn the change in the lawasto which ballot gets priority, if a voter casts a vote both ways apparently.

    Freestone opinion noted that the COVID-19 excuse to vote by mail, which was passed into state law after voters rejected a no-excuse voting ballot proposition last year, presents an “Orwellian perpetual state of health emergency.” She described the measure as “cloaked in the veneer of ‘voter enfranchisement.'”

    She said the Democrat’s argument that the coronavirus poses a current health risk is “replete with alarmist statistics.” The attorneys cited data from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention that asserts several counties in New York are at a high risk of transmission of COVID-19. Freestone also rejected any concern over “collective phantom menaces of Monkey Pox and Polio.”

    The Democrat’s argument, Freestone continued, is that the Republican concern about “constitutionality is the Shakespearean ‘much ado about nothing’ as these absentee voting expansions will sunset and expire at the end of 2022.”

    “This court is skeptical of such a pollyannaish notion,” Freestone said. “There is nothing before this court to suggest that the continued overreach of the Legislature into the purview of the New York state constitution shall sunset or that this authority once taken shall be so returned.”

    Absentee voting using the excuse of fear of COVID-19, “unquestionably violates the ‘spirit’ of absentee voting,” Freestone wrote.
    \

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  202. Cancun ted cruz on the view. Democrats are election deniers too! 2016 hillary clinton and her running dogs: Trump illegitimately elected. 2018 stacy abrams says election was stolen from me. Russia collusion! Trump is doing the same. Whopi They were right! Trump is lying!(ace) This is why the democratic corporate establishment is phony and hypocritical. Do as I say not as I do. I got kicked off liberal sites for asking for the evidence of russia stealing the 2016 election and russian collusion with trump.

    asset (93c156)

  203. Liz Cheney smply thinks the constitution and abiding by elections is more important than any other issue. (I guess like Lincoln felt about the constitution -more important than slavery)

    She says that if Donald Trump is nominated in 2024 the Republican Party will splinter. (She will do, she says, whatever it takes to stop Donald Trump from becoming president again. The splinter she seemsto be predicting will happen without her)

    But the convention is too late to make such a decision – too late to get on the ballot in all 50 states. Even someone becoming the presumptive nominee by early March, is too late (to raise money) unless someone is multi millionaire (or gets a multi millionaire to run as his or her vice president like David Koch in 1980 for the Libertarian Party. (Mike Bloomberg as vice president. obviating campaign finance laws?)

    . And do you have confidence the House – voting by states – will not select Donald Trump? It’s maybe worth gambling to try to get a decent president.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  204. asset (93c156) — 10/24/2022 @ 2:28 pm

    Democrats are election deniers too! 2016 hillary clinton and her running dogs: Trump illegitimately elected.

    She didn;tclaimany kind of ballot miscounting -just the popular vote – did silently support recounts. Bigeffort wasto get Electorstovote for her. Stacey abrams claimed people were deprived of the right to vote not that there was vote fraud.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  205. Putin may be trying to sell the illusion of a psssible settlement in order to cut back aid to Ukraine. To increase support for that idea he has his media talk about dirty bombs.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  206. From CBS news website…

    What’s more, 80% of Democrats and Republicans believe the political opposition poses a threat that, if not stopped, will destroy America as we know it.

    And two-thirds of reliable Democratic and Republican voters say they’d still support their party’s political candidate, even if that person had a moral failing that wasn’t consistent with their own values.

    Oh, my aching head.

    Simon Jester (a24cdc)

  207. Russian Offensive Campaign Assessment, October 23
    ………
    Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu likely sought to slow or suspend Western military aid to Ukraine and possibly weaken the NATO alliance in scare-mongering calls with several NATO defense ministers on October 23. Shoigu separately called his counterparts from France, Turkey, the United Kingdom, and the United States on October 23, claiming that Ukraine is preparing to conduct a false-flag attack using a dirty bomb ……. to accuse Russia of using weapons of mass destruction. Russian state media amplified this false and ridiculous claim. …….
    ……….
    Shoigu’s claims likely do not portend Russian preparations to use non-strategic nuclear weapons in Ukraine either. ISW previously stated on September 30 that “ISW cannot forecast the point at which Putin would decide to use nuclear weapons. Such a decision would be inherently personal, but Putin’s stated red lines for nuclear weapon use have already been crossed in this war several times over without any Russian nuclear escalation.” Russia does not “need,” under formal Russian nuclear doctrine, a further event to justify nuclear weapons use. ………Shoigu’s comments are thus unlikely to presage a nuclear terror attack against one or more major Ukrainian population centers or critical infrastructure in hopes of shocking Ukraine into surrender or the West into cutting off aid to Ukraine. …….

    ……….ISW has assessed since May that Putin seeks to force Ukraine to accept his terms and deter continued Western support for Ukraine through nuclear brinksmanship. …….

    Key inflections in ongoing military operations on October 23:

    Russian authorities likely cut internet access in Kherson City on October 22 to limit local reporting of Russian evacuations to the east bank of the Dnipro River……..
    ……..
    Russian forces struck Zaporizhzhia City, Mykolaiv City, and other areas in Mykolaiv Oblast with Shahed 136 drones and S-300 missiles. ……..

    A spokesperson for the Ukrainian Air Force Command claimed that Ukrainian forces have shot down a total of 273 Iranian-provided Shahed-136 drones since Russia began using them in Ukraine on September 13. ……..

    Russian outlets continued to set conditions to blame Ukraine for the destruction of the Kakhovka Hydroelectric Power Plant, which Russian forces will likely destroy to slow advancing Ukrainian forces.
    ……..
    A Ukrainian source reported that Russian authorities in Krasnodar Krai have “indefinitely” extended the “vacations” (meaning forced abductions as part of an ethnic cleansing campaign) of children from Enerhodar, Zaporizhia Oblast. ……..
    ……..


    Bolding in original. Footnotes omitted.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  208. Look, if this advice had been followed in 2016, we would never have gotten Dobbs. Should such advice be followed now, given what would have happened if conservative and Republican voters had done so in 2016? Perhaps the biggest conservative victory in decades would not have happened.

    My prediction has long been that some anti-Trump Republicans will now declare that no Republican is suitable, for one reason or another, and I guess that’s what has happened here. McCarthy says no blank check (is that unreasonable? Which other countries deserve blank checks from our treasury?) and so now no Republican is suitable? Good grief.

    mikeybates (a4ea32)

  209. Most of them are backbenchers (and members of the Progressive Caucus) and not committee chairs.

    It seems they still have a fondness for Moscow.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  210. She says that if Donald Trump is nominated in 2024 the Republican Party will splinter.

    And what does the bodypolitik do w/a splinter?

    Remove it. The Wyoming GOP has already done it.

    Bye-Bye Neocons and Daughter Darth.

    DCSCA (9c5228)

  211. The problem with this war is that Biden is using the Democrat conflict playbook — tiny ratchets up in response to the other side’s ratchet’s up. The sort of thing that got us from a few hundred advisors to 600,000 troops in Vietnam over more than a decade. The sort of thing that later Presidents rejected.

    It’s a strategy that is guaranteed to keep either side from quitting, as the incremental pain on each escalation is tolerable. Then all of a sudden they find themselves WELL past the point they ever expected to go.

    If we get to a nuclear exchange, it will be because we slowly backed into one. A better approach would be to toss in our hat and go for a quick win. That may get a bad result, but out current path is almost guaranteed to.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  212. “Just that you are disatisfied and expect someone use foreceful measures to make it stop, whatever it is. Because you are a coherent writer, I believe this ambiguity is deliberate.”

    FWO isn’t shy and doesn’t lack the words to communicate his vision, he is purposefully evading it. I think we can guess why.

    No, you really can’t. Neither of you are Kreskin, so don’t act like you’re more insightful than you really are.

    The whole point is that there’s no front on the culture war that your faction won’t argue isn’t worth fighting. Even relatively benign actions like Youngkin’s bring about hand-waving that “this isn’t what we should be focusing on!”

    It’s really quite simple. You engage the left the same way they engage the right, relentlessly and vigorously. If you have setbacks, you keep coming back again and again and again and again and again and again until you get your agenda through. If the legislatures won’t pass it, you put it up for a ballot. If you lose the ballot, you find a sympathetic judge who will rule in your favor. If a judge won’t rule in your favor, you browbeat until those trying to keep your agenda from going through give in just to keep the peace. The left has no qualms about brute-forcing its agenda through in places where it can’t insinuate it, and neither should the right place any such constraints on themselves.

    Because that’s the long-standing blind spot of the neocon crowd. As Kenton Kelly pointed out in his criticism of Goldberg’s “Liberal Fascism” many years ago, they’ve never understood the extent of the left’s will to power. They think they can simply squawk, “Just imagine if a liberal did this!”, or “Democrats are the real racists!” and the left will moderate themselves in shame. They do so because their intellectual roots were fashioned by disaffected Trotskyites who moved to the right, which as a left-wing movement originally, weaponized conservative/right-wing principles against them to gain political control. They’re completely oblivious to the fact that the left long ago embraced the ethic that Marcuse outlined in “Repressive Tolerance”:

    “Liberating tolerance, then, would mean intolerance against movements from the Right and toleration of movements from the Left. As to the scope of this tolerance and intolerance: … it would extend to the stage of action as well as of discussion and propaganda, of deed as well as of word…

    The whole post-fascist period is one of clear and present danger. Consequently, true pacification requires the withdrawal of tolerance before the deed, at the stage of communication in word, print, and picture. Such extreme suspension of the right of free speech and free assembly is indeed justified only if the whole of society is in extreme danger. I maintain that our society is in such an emergency situation, and that it has become the normal state of affairs. Different opinions and ‘philosophies’ can no longer compete peacefully for adherence and persuasion on rational grounds: the ‘marketplace of ideas’ is organized and delimited by those who determine the national and the individual interest.”

    It’s completely useless to believe the pointing out the inconsistencies of left-wing action is going to make them back down. The double standard is the keystone of their political ideology. Marcuse is the intellectual godfather of today’s American left, and he laid it out plain and clear as can be. The only way to combat an ideology like that is to meet it with greater resistance than it’s engaging, keep doing so until those who promote it deem the environment so hostile that they at temporarily moderate their behavior, if not abandon the field entirely, and vigorously defend every inch of ground gained afterwards.

    The culture war doesn’t end because the left doesn’t want it to end; their worldview is built on the foundation of perpetual revolution. That’s why they’re now pushing wokism as a quasi-religious movement, even after gaining control of every Cathedral institution in the country. And even if they get their way there, they’ll find something else to complain about and something else they’ll argue needs to be changed, and round and round it goes. Read up on the history of the Cultural Revolution in China if you want to see a microcosm of that mentality, because that’s what the New Left admired and was lionizing when it took place, particularly violent radicals like SDS and Weather Underground. So that’s why these remonstrations about “stupid culture war issues” are so short-sighted and self-defeating; abandoning the culture war is the right cutting off its nose to spite its face. It’s ceding the most important arena, the one that forms the core of a nation’s identity, to an ideology that is thoroughly hostile to it.

    But leaving that aside, declaring that the war in Ukraine and election denialism are far more important than inflation or the state of the economy is the epitome of neocon thinking–who cares if the proles and the middle class are struggling to pay their bills, or that they’re suffering under the burden of increased crime rates and deteriorating communities. The wine-and-cheese True and Honest Conservatives don’t give a rip about that; they have scores to settle for the GOP kicking them to the curb, so “focus on these issues that most Americans don’t actually care about,” in the hopes that the party will suffer one of the rare losses of the opposing party in the midterms, and they can sit back and feel smug that they supposedly taught us a lesson. To be blunt, that’s even more reason to reject their arguments.

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d)

  213. She says that if Donald Trump is nominated in 2024 the Republican Party will splinter.

    There are GOP politicians who don’t care. They don’t want a future in the Trump Party, and just might run for the middle.

    Biden/AOC vs Trump/Gaetz vs Ryan/Haley for example.

    It won’t be Cheney, even she knows she’s toxic for a while. Unless of course only Cheney will do it, but those newspaper people will quickly forget her heroism and remember how right-wing she was.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  214. It would be fun to see Trump’s support down in single digits, as the man-child loudly called everyone else a traitor.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  215. @209. A better approach would be to toss in our hat and go for a quick win. That may get a bad result, but out current path is almost guaranteed to.

    This is nuts. Corrupt Ukraine is NOT an American problem to meddle in to begin with— no American interests are at stake; it is not Taiwan. And certainly not one to escalate into an atomic confrontation w/flag waving bluster for ideological buttinskis in the United States; it is the third kinetic conflict on the European continent in 115 years and the responsibility of wealthy, modern Europe- with their national healthcare systems, strong militaries and vibrant economies– to bear the burden of managing a regional conflict amongst the corrupt neighbors they’re connected to, by their choice of immdiate energy needs; by geography, and by regional commerce. You’ve learn nothing from October, 1962. De-escalation and disengagement are their path to peace; the solution is political, not military. And one for Corrupt Ukrain and Corrupt Russia to work out themselves.

    DCSCA (9c5228)

  216. CPAC or QAnal or whatever else Trump’s corrupt criminal traitors call themselves, are a current windfall for Putin. The Democrats are his steady menagerie.

    When Al Franken was giving Jeff Sessions guff over his conversations with Sergey Kislyak, for example, it was found that then Senator Claire McCaskill had had 25 meetings with Kislyak over “Russian adoptions”.

    nk (2d1664)

  217. Good to see Hillary is out in front of the 2024 election cycle and already claiming it will be stolen
    Donald/Hillary 2024 ticket is the clear choice of the Nutter Party

    https://twitter.com/i/status/1584726498681896961

    steveg (087fd5)

  218. I see that the Trump mob is moving to DeSantis. It has finally dawned on them that as much as they love Trump, the man can’t govern worth crap.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  219. And two-thirds of reliable Democratic and Republican voters say they’d still support their party’s political candidate, even if that person had a moral failing that wasn’t consistent with their own values.

    It could be Attila vs Mao vs Mother Teresa and no one would waste their vote on the nun.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  220. And two-thirds of reliable Democratic and Republican voters say they’d still support their party’s political candidate, even if that person had a moral failing that wasn’t consistent with their own values.

    Oh, my aching head.

    Simon Jester (a24cdc) — 10/24/2022 @ 2:48 pm

    Sadly those numbers are about what I would have expected from both sides. But here’s the rub. 92% of Republicans voted for Trump in 2020. That means that in addition to the 2/3 of Republicans who were candid about their willingness to vote for a moral pariah, another 25% of Republicans either lied to the pollsters or they don’t believe Trump has any moral failings inconsistent with their values.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  221. It’s why we’re so scr&wed by our political duopoly. We need, but our system can’t accommodate, a viable third party that could unite sane, principled Republicans, Democrats and independents at the expense of the unprincipled tribalists who have a strangle hold on the major parties.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  222. So, I live in NM. We have 3 congresswomen. Two D, 1 R. The problem in all these down-ballot elections is each candidate has to be past a party primary, and that means they have to meet the needs of the activists.

    California tried a different plan, but it seems to have failed. You still have to get through the primary in the same old way, even if it’s officially non-partisan.

    MY PLAN for New Mexico would be this: Three at-large representatives, with each voter getting ONE vote. This avoids slates and allows people to vote FOR a candidate. If you need to have a primary, let a hundred candidates run and then the top 6 or 8 for the finals.

    In any event that allows people to identify directly with candidates and not have to choose between two weevils.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  223. @208 dobbs is a victory for conservatives the same way dred scott was a victory for slavery. As john brown said at his trial the issue of slavery has still to be decided. The same with abortion. It will be 2024 that when they go low we go high good government establishment liberals will have to face primaries against “by any means necessary” to get rid of dobbs and conservatives on the supreme court. The debates will be interesting. The firebrands like AOC are in deep blue districts the moderates on roe are in marginal districts that many will lose in 2022.

    asset (7cd709)

  224. @224. The problem with your wishcasting is that the Dems lack the votes to legislate a replacement for Roe today. If they lose those purple seats they’ll have fewer votes, not more.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  225. “ Putin gets more aggressive when the West displays weakness.”

    I disagree. From his point of view, the west has been the aggressor. Immediately after the wall fell the US said NATO would not expand. over the last 30 years, it has, in fact, expanded eastward towards Russia.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlargement_of_NATO

    And then there was talk of Ukraine joining NATO. Putin felt boxed in and launched his illegal war.

    Why didn’t he do this when his puppet Trump was the president? wasn’t that when the West was its weakest?

    kaf (0c6d6c)

  226. If baby-killers really practiced “by any means necessary”, they would now have at least 30 million more voters. At least. But they killed them instead.

    Baby killers do not practice “by any means necessary”. They practice “that which least inconveniences me”.

    You dishonor the people who fought for the right not to have fat-bellied crackers beat them with whips and sic dogs on them, when you steal their slogan for AOC’s right to scratch her itch without a condom.

    nk (2d1664)

  227. @212 FWO, that’s a great response.

    Not sure I’d agree with everything, but it was definitely insightful!

    whembly (f5d390)

  228. Very insightful.

    “I don’t care if the descendants of Genghis Khan are killing, raping, and robbing their neighbors. My neighbors suck too, and America has never been governed the way I want it governed, and more important than that I want bacon on my cheeseburger.”

    nk (2d1664)

  229. You know, I see a few people saying McCarthy said nothing wrong because “who really wants a blank check for Ukraine?”

    I think the more relevant question is “since when *was* there a blank check for Ukraine?”

    If our policy has any faults, it’s that it’s too weak. That we don’t give them air defense. It’s certainly not that we have given them too much of a blank check, for goodness’s sake.

    Patterico (7158dc)

  230. “ Putin gets more aggressive when the West displays weakness.”

    I disagree. From his point of view, the west has been the aggressor

    From Putin’s (publicly expressed) point of view, Zelensky the Jew is a Nazi. From Putin’s (publicly expressed) point of view, Putin has not targeted civilian apartment buildings for shelling; he has not targeted civilian energy infrastructure for kamikaze drone attacks; he did not blow up Nord Stream; his goons have not raped grannies or killed babies or tortured innocent civilians; he did not bomb his own cities’ apartment buildings to gain power; he has not had his critics and political opponents poisoned, thrown out of windows, or shot; and so forth.

    Oh wait. Are we talking about his publicly maintained views or what he privately knows to be true? Because he knows all that is true. He is evil and he is a liar. So why argue his “point of view” as if it had validity? It’s all knowing lies.

    You realize Hitler, too, thought he was the good guy and his enemies were the baddies?

    Our choices are to appease or help Ukraine win. Seems like an easy moral choice to me.

    Patterico (7158dc)

  231. nk (2d1664) — 10/25/2022 @ 6:52 am

    Woof, that strawman is burning so intensely, the missile warning systems at Buckley Space Force Base are picking up the heat signature.

    Factory Working Orphan (d1c230)

  232. FWO (#212),

    You expend a lot of words on the need to fight and very few on what you are fighting for. I’m not going to try to read your mind. I just wonder what’s on it, besides the eternal struggle with the enemy.

    Appalled (214a4c)

  233. That’s better! Words that people can understand, images and metaphors that can be visualized, and the entire meaning conveyed concisely enough so that the reader has not forgotten the first half by the time he gets to the second half.

    nk (2d1664)

  234. You expend a lot of words on the need to fight and very few on what you are fighting for.

    Stop. You’re just being deliberately obtuse at this point. I get that the concept of resisting the left’s socio-political agenda makes you guys uncomfortable, but there was nothing vague in what I wrote.

    Factory Working Orphan (d1c230)

  235. Factory Working Orphan (d1c230) — 10/25/2022 @ 8:34 am

    Non-responsive to Appalled’s comment.

    Paul Montagu (753b42)

  236. People will live the way they want to live if their circumstances and imagination allow them. And lacking imagination, information will do.

    America is the most inclement possible battlefield for a culture war. Free and rich, the circumstances and exchange of information provide the greatest opportunity to the greatest number of people to live the way they want to live.

    nk (2d1664)

  237. #235

    You should re-read your #212. It is a well-written justification of a tactical strategy. I know how you want to accomplish what you want — but I don’t really have a clue what you want.

    Appalled (214a4c)

  238. Trying to understand someone’s motivation can be very helpful in dealing with them.

    I chose option 3: stay out of the conflict. How is that appeasing?

    But we are the USA so we feel it is our right to get involved in every stupid war in the world.

    kaf (cd3404)

  239. Marina Medvin 🇺🇸
    @MarinaMedvin
    🚨🚨🚨🚨🚨
    NY State Supreme Court reinstates all fired unvaccinated employees, orders backpay, says the state violated rights, acted arbitrary & capricious, notes:“Being vaccinated does not prevent an individual from contracting or transmitting Covid-19.”

    https://iapps.courts.state.ny.us/fbem/DocumentDisplayServlet?documentId=JK5E3gx5XV1/ku37jnWR_PLUS_w==&system=prod&TSPD_101_R0=08533cd43fab20008c3052f5d9e988dc141a62788caba35e2f7d0c45d2f9bf5dbcb900c5f43d4b7108d0f9658914480026b940ec8164eaca9b9c72ba46f2eb045d02af47924e710b06b3e854370ed429ee0bd25d4123733c49a06825e2a8166e0345c1a993b757aea94d0ee9392ce9f9bfe0490981de1020

    https://twitter.com/MarinaMedvin/status/1584930051166208000?cxt=HHwWgIDU2f7e5v4rAAAA

    It is like rewarding a bunch of drunk drivers!

    Get. The. Damn. Shot.

    BuDuh (25a8b8)

  240. Non-responsive to Appalled’s comment.

    Paul Montagu (753b42) — 10/25/2022 @ 8:53 am

    Someone who continually makes their retorts all about me is in no position to critique here

    Factory Working Orphan (d1c230)

  241. I know how you want to accomplish what you want — but I don’t really have a clue what you want.

    Appalled (214a4c) — 10/25/2022 @ 8:58 am

    “Resisting the left’s socio-political agenda” covers a broad range of policies that’s been well-litigated at this point. And it’s no more vague than “stupid culture war issues,” so I’m not sure what you’re trying to accomplish here other than sea-lioning.

    Factory Working Orphan (d1c230)

  242. Our choices are to appease or help Ukraine win. Seems like an easy moral choice to me.

    You omit the most significant choice for the United States: not to meddle in a European problem at all.

    Corrupt Ukraine is NOT an American problem to meddle in to begin with— no American interests are at stake; it is not Taiwan.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_Ukraine

    This is the third major kinetic conflict on the European continent in 115 years and the responsibility of the individual nations in wealthy, modern Europe- with their national healthcare systems, strong militaries; efficient infrastructure and vibrant economies– under the collective defensive protection of NATO no less- to bear the burden of managing a regional conflict amongst the corrupt neighbors they’re connected to, by deliberate policy choices to meet immediate energy needs; by geography, and by regional commerce. A policy choice of dependence they were warned was ill-conceived.

    De-escalation and disengagement are their path to peace and theirs to work out; the solution is political, not military. And one for Corrupt Ukraine and Corrupt Russia to hammer and sickle out for themselves.

    ________

    If our policy has any faults, it’s that it’s too weak. That we don’t give them air defense. It’s certainly not that we have given them too much of a blank check, for goodness’s sake.

    The faults are 1) the policy of meddling and 2) the ‘give.’

    Who is being burdened w/’giving’ borrowed billions as freebees to one of the most corrupt countries in Eastern Europe, aside from, corrupt Russia itself: the American taxpayer and their children. It is the responsibility of wealthy, modern Europe w/their modern militaries to bear the financial burden- not the American taxpayer. Z is not the propped up Shah of Iran nor a Saudi king, where U.S. and allied oil interests were a rational motivator; Taiwan is under threat; U.S. interests are certainly there.

    If “morality” [a transient] is your ‘metric’– what of Hong Kong or the plethora of ongoing conflicts out of the camera eye around the world America avoids involvement; it’s a long list:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ongoing_armed_conflicts

    Peddle Ukrainian Freedom Fighter War Bonds if you can; raise the billions in the private sector [and likely would from corporate interests who want to get back to business there]- but adding to the U.S. debt ‘gifting’ corrupt Ukraine [that literally bites the hands ‘freely’ feeding it- as Starlink provider Elon Musk can attest] w/borrowed billions and depleting U.S. hardware inventories [after abandoning billion worth in Afghanistan last year] is foolish policy–especially when American interests are most directly threatened elsewhere- most certainly over Taiwan– where the logistics for the U.S. to defend that region are much more challenging than in Eastern Europe– as recent ‘war gaming’ by the U.S. repeatedly has shown.

    DCSCA (9a8ed1)

  243. 60 Years Ago Today: October 25, 1962; The Cuban Missile Crisis- tick-tock, tick-tock

    Waiting for hell to freeze over- or the thermonuclear meltdown:

    Knowing that some missiles in Cuba were now operational, JFK personally drafts a letter to Premier Khrushchev, again urging him to change the course of events. Meanwhile, Soviet freighters turn and head back to Europe. The Bucharest, carrying only petroleum products, is allowed through the quarantine line. U.N. Secretary General U Thant calls for a cooling off period, which is rejected by Kennedy because it would leave the missiles in place.

    On October 25 at 1:45 am EDT, Kennedy responded to Khrushchev’s telegram by stating that the US was forced into action after receiving repeated assurances that no offensive missiles were being placed in Cuba, and when the assurances proved to be false, the deployment “required the responses I have announced…. I hope that your government will take necessary action to permit a restoration of the earlier situation.”

    At 7:15 am EDT on October 25, USS Essex and USS Gearing attempted to intercept Bucharest but failed to do so. Fairly certain that the tanker did not contain any military material, the US allowed it through the blockade. Later that day, at 5:43 pm, the commander of the blockade effort ordered the destroyer USS Joseph P. Kennedy Jr. to intercept and board the Lebanese freighter Marucla. That took place the next day, and Marucla was cleared through the blockade after its cargo was checked.

    At 5:00 pm EDT on October 25, William Clements announced that the missiles in Cuba were still actively being worked on. That report was later verified by a CIA report that suggested there had been no slowdown at all. In response, Kennedy issued Security Action Memorandum 199, authorizing the loading of nuclear weapons onto aircraft under the command of SACEUR, which had the duty of carrying out first air strikes on the Soviet Union. Kennedy claimed that the blockade had succeeded when the USSR turned back fourteen ships presumably carrying offensive weapons. The first indication of this came from a report from the British GCHQ sent to the White House Situation Room containing intercepted communications from Soviet ships reporting their positions. On October 24, a Soviet cargo ship, reported a position north-east of where it had been 24 hours earlier indicating it had “discontinued” its voyage and turned back towards the Baltic. The next day, reports showed more ships originally bound for Cuba had altered their course.

    On the 25th, the Chinese People’s Daily announced that “650,000,000 Chinese men and women were standing by the Cuban people”. At the United Nations, Ambassador Stevenson confronted Soviet Ambassador Zorin in an emergency meeting challenging him to admit the existence of the missiles. Much public debate between the United States and the Soviet Union took place in the halls of the United Nations. During the debate in the Security Council, the normally courteous U.S. Ambassador Stevenson aggressively confronted his Soviet U.N. counterpart Zorin with photographic evidence of the missiles in Cuba: “I’m prepared to wait for my answer until hell freezes over…”

    https://microsites.jfklibrary.org/cmc/oct25/
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Missile_Crisis

    DCSCA (9a8ed1)

  244. #242 —

    Resisting the left’s socio-political agenda can mean everything from restoring divorce laws to the way they were circa 1970 to banning single-sex marriage to throwing out the 1619 project to letting somebody refuse to bake a cake to getting a little sanity on transgender questions. I think you are still ambiguous. Because you are a very good writer, I assume that’s deliberate.

    Appalled (214a4c)

  245. A good writer is understood. That comment @212 was an incoherent rant of half-formed thoughts thrown into a blender with random pages torn out of political journals and Sociology 101 textbooks and deleted scenes from the The Joker.

    nk (bb1548)

  246. Someone who continually makes their retorts all about me is in no position to critique here.

    Delusional. This is simply about getting answers to questions, which you continually refuse to do.

    Paul Montagu (753b42)

  247. Trying to understand someone’s motivation can be very helpful in dealing with them.

    Great. We understand. Here’s the deal: No!

    I chose option 3: stay out of the conflict. How is that appeasing?

    You’re right, it’s not appeasing. It’s surrender.

    But we are the USA so we feel it is our right to get involved in every stupid war in the world.

    And Putin just slipped an extra $5 into your tip jar.

    nk (bb1548)

  248. FWO, you stated “Resisting the left’s socio-political agenda” covers a broad range of policies that’s been well-litigated at this point.” Try this, name one agenda item and tell us what your prescription/strategy is. It would be better than repeating another long litany of grievances.

    Paul Montagu (753b42)

  249. Delusional. This is simply about getting answers to questions, which you continually refuse to do.

    Paul Montagu (753b42) — 10/25/2022 @ 10:47 am

    Yeah “I’m just asking questions!” is a common sea-lioning technique.

    Factory Working Orphan (d1c230)

  250. Still non-responsive, FWO. Try again.

    Paul Montagu (753b42)

  251. 251:

    Be nice, Paul. I learned what sea-lioning meant — which was a new term for me. So it has been educational.

    I am concluding that, with FWO, the fight is the thing and everything else is just incidental. That’s useful to know.

    Appalled (1baa71)

  252. FWO, you stated “Resisting the left’s socio-political agenda” covers a broad range of policies that’s been well-litigated at this point.” Try this, name one agenda item and tell us what your prescription/strategy is. It would be better than repeating another long litany of grievances.

    Paul Montagu (753b42) — 10/25/2022 @ 10:58 am

    Nah, you don’t get to reset the terms here. I didn’t ask Patterico what he meant by “stupid culture war issues,” and then accuse him of being evasive and imply sinister motives on his part for not giving me the answer the exact way I wanted him to respond. Both statements are easily inferred through years and even decades of discussion on this board and through the punditsphere. The response was made in good faith, and I really don’t give a rip if you don’t accept it. I’ve said before I was fine with Youngkin and DeSantis’ culture war engagements, so if you actually think that’s not specific enough, and I’m predicting with high confidence that it won’t be due to personal animus rather than logic or reason, then all I can say at that point is to stop acting less mature than my four-year-old when I tell her she can’t watch Ryan’s World.

    Factory Working Orphan (d1c230)

  253. @249. And Putin just slipped an extra $5 into your tip jar.

    Pfft. You must work for the government, nk; you excel at freely spending other people’s money- both America’s– and now Putin’s! 😉

    DCSCA (80e3a3)

  254. Still non-responsive, FWO. Try again.

    Paul Montagu (753b42) — 10/25/2022 @ 11:14 am

    Nah.

    Factory Working Orphan (d1c230)

  255. I am concluding that, with FWO, the fight is the thing and everything else is just incidental. That’s useful to know.

    Appalled (1baa71) — 10/25/2022 @ 11:31 am

    Politics generally involves fighting to push through an agenda, or resist one that’s already in place. People who are aware of the most political clashes in this country’s history, or that of older civilizations like Rome, shouldn’t be surprised when one takes place in their own time.

    Factory Working Orphan (d1c230)

  256. Be nice, Paul. I learned what sea-lioning meant — which was a new term for me. So it has been educational.

    Oh, I’ve known what it’s meant for over a decade, Appalled, but it doesn’t apply in this situation, not when it involves a person never answers my questions with a direct answer.

    Paul Montagu (753b42)

  257. A good writer is understood. That comment @212 was an incoherent rant of half-formed thoughts thrown into a blender with random pages torn out of political journals and Sociology 101 textbooks and deleted scenes from the The Joker.

    nk (bb1548) — 10/25/2022 @ 10:46 am

    Sorry, next time I’ll keep it to one-liners for those with short attention spans.

    Factory Working Orphan (d1c230)

  258. #257

    I thought he was accusing me of that, not you. But if you want to take the blame, that’s OK.

    And I did find my way to a great cartoon as a result:

    http://wondermark.com/1k62/

    Appalled (1baa71)

  259. Oh, I’ve known what it’s meant for over a decade, Appalled, but it doesn’t apply in this situation, not when it involves a person never answers my questions with a direct answer.

    Paul Montagu (753b42) — 10/25/2022 @ 11:43 am

    Thanks for admitting that you know what I mean, but are pretending not to because you’re less emotionally developed than my four year old.

    Factory Working Orphan (d1c230)

  260. He accused up both, Appalled.
    As evasion techniques go, it’s one of FWO’s more pathetic attempts.

    Paul Montagu (753b42)

  261. Speaking of Ukraine, the Hard Left Claque of House Democrats retracted their idiot letter.

    Paul Montagu (753b42)

  262. Trying to understand someone’s motivation can be very helpful in dealing with them.

    I actually agree with this. But when I read a comment from someone who announces his opposition to our getting involved, and the explanation of Putin’s point of view is unaccompanied by an unequivocal statement that Putin is lying and his alleged point of view is horseshit, it’s natural for me to assume you’re suggesting there is something to his point of view. That’s how I felt in my precious comment and it’s how I feel now. Until I see that unequivocal statement from you, I will continue to assume so.

    I chose option 3: stay out of the conflict. How is that appeasing?

    But we are the USA so we feel it is our right to get involved in every stupid war in the world

    Peace in our time!

    Patterico (5e1527)

  263. Speaking of Ukraine, the Hard Left Claque of House Democrats retracted their idiot letter.

    That’s good, just like McCarthy’s semi walkback is good — but it’s a reminder that extreme left and extreme right meet on the horseshoe.

    Patterico (5e1527)

  264. kaf, when you call it a stupid war, I ask you to clarify what you mean. Yes, Putin’s action in beginning it was stupid and unprovoked. But surely it is not stupid for Ukraine to defend itself. Nor do I believe it is stupid to help.

    Honest question: do you follow what is happening over there? How closely? How are Putin’s terroristic actions different from those of Al Qaeda? What actions by Putin would it take for you to feel it justified for us to arm a peaceful nation subject to terrorism of its civilian population?

    And if it were Taiwan would you feel different? If so, do you think the Chinese are watching to see if we have the backbone to help Ukraine or no? Do you think Putin’s failure emboldens China or causes it to think twice about doing the same to Taiwan?

    Put all partisan considerations aside and answer me these questions from a reasonable and rational viewpoint. I’ll try to do the same.

    Patterico (5e1527)

  265. getting back to the post…

    the point of which isn’t so much about what to do about election denialism and ukraine

    the point asserted is that those are more important than other issues, such as the economy, inflation, crime, gas prices, stock market, border security — and I think that assertion doesn’t mesh with either polls or common sense, nor will it mesh with voters in a couple of weeks

    but those are the only two issues biden and the democrats aren’t royally screwing up, so they must get hyped

    JF (43f7d1)

  266. Precious and few are the comments these two can share.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  267. but those are the only two issues biden and the democrats aren’t royally screwing up, so they must get hyped

    Sounds like you are questioning the sincerity of my beliefs. Shall I put you on the list of people I do not speak with? Happy to do so.

    Patterico (5e1527)

  268. I’m well and truly done taking to people who insist on ending their comment to me with a flourish that suggests I am being intellectually dishonest.

    Life is too short to converse with such people. If others agree that they detract from the conversation, tell me and I will boot them. I’m far less patient these days.

    Patterico (5e1527)

  269. Peace in our time!

    There was no NATO in Chamberlain’s time; a defensive alliance which keeps the peace for member states in our time.

    1938 Europe was an era where the nation state combatants of WW1 were still reeling from the devastating loss of life– which hollowed out whole generations of young men– of lingering damage to the infrastructure of their time and the economic wreckage from same along with the clinging tendril of the Great Depression.

    DCSCA (c2e036)

  270. If so, do you think the Chinese are watching to see if we have the backbone to help Ukraine or no? Do you think Putin’s failure emboldens China or causes it to think twice about doing the same to Taiwan?

    Backbone? Years before the annexation of Crimea and the current conflict, China was well aware over the decade or more of the history of corrupt Ukraine and the resistance the member states of the NATO alliance have had to voting membership for Ukraine- a vote which has to be unanimous.

    https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/national-international/ukraine-wanted-to-join-natos-alliance-for-years-what-stopped-it/2813488/#:~:text=While%20NATO%2C%20the%20U.S.%20and%20other%20allies%20rejected,has%20any%20chance%20of%20joining%20in%20the%20future.

    Among the many points: ‘Transparency International, an anti-corruption watchdog, gave Ukraine a 32 out of a possible 100 points on its Corruption Perceptions Index and ranked it 122nd out of 180 countries for 2021, lower than any NATO nation. The lowest current NATO member in the rankings is Turkey, given a 38, while Russia was graded at a 29.’

    Corruption is rampant in Ukraine. The “backbone” is to see the Ukraine/Russian conflict as not an American problem to meddle in to begin with, but the individual nation states of wealthy, modern Europe’s to manage; unlike Taiwan, there are no direct U.S. interests in corrupt Ukraine. And NATO, the defensive alliance, particularly w/Article 5 at the ready- protects theEastern European conflict from widening to the member states– which Putin’s corrupt Russia is keenly aware of.

    There are definitive American interests to protect in Taiwan- it is a harder logistics challenge as well. China is watching that- and keenly assessing American capabilities to do it. It will be a challenge for the United States; basic geography does not favor the U.S. as it is.

    DCSCA (c2e036)

  271. it’s a reminder that extreme left and extreme right meet on the horseshoe.

    Patterico (5e1527) — 10/25/2022 @ 12:28 pm

    This can’t be said often enough, and it gets truer by the day. Though both sides have always had their isolationist factions, I generally associated Blame America First with the left. I never thought I’d see the day that self-identified conservatives would parrot anti-American RT propaganda, much less sit with the Jill Stein leftists on a Moscow junket paying homage to Vladimir Putin. That the GOP nominated one for President — and that he won! — will never not be dumbfounding.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  272. @225/226 I like to post real politic here. I am posting about short term control of the democrat party, not long term legislation to overturn dobbs. 30 members of the enlarged squad were forced by moderates to withdraw their letter on ukraine. I have mixed emotions about it because I support aide to ukraine. If democrat party has a bad mid term it will be moderate corporate establishment stooges in marginal districts who go down to defeat. If rethugliKKKans take over house and senate nancy is off to be ambassador to italy and other corporate establishment democrats used to power will leave rather then be a rethug punching bag in the minority as their doror class demands. RethugliKKKans running congress would remind voters why they hate rethugliKKKans as biden and pelosi remind them why they hate democrats. Rethugs are evil and self destructive. It would not bother me one bit if rethugliKKKans were running congress look at how they acted last time in 2010/2018. They will have elected even more crazies and nazis this time. The left will take power in the democrat party from the corporate democrats after their defeat and clean house as base angry over abortion will demand.

    asset (cf9f53)

  273. Over at ace they have a story where hillary clinton saying on tape on jake tapper cnn that russia is literally changing votes on voting machines in 2016 election. Hope they will show the video of her saying that. Ted cruz said similar on the view and whoopi said she was correct in doing so.

    asset (cf9f53)

  274. Ye cancelled again.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  275. @246, “A good writer is understood. That comment @212 was an incoherent rant of half-formed thoughts thrown into a blender with random pages torn out of political journals and Sociology 101 textbooks and deleted scenes from the The Joker.”

    OK, I almost peed on myself…no, no…I think I did actually. Worth it!

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  276. 240/BuDuh… did you forget to add /sarc after telling people to “get the damn shot”?

    In Chicago I’d ease the nonvaccinid cops back into duty by issuing them vuvuzuelas and having them break up street takeovers (with “coal roller” trucks”) and standing in front of charged suspects released to their homes

    urbanleftbehind (3e9616)

  277. Patterico is right. (He usually is.) Both of those issues are direct attacks on democracy, one here and one abroad. They are more important than any of the other issues named in this thread.

    If you believe in democracy, that is. Which too many Americans are giving up on, and going back to one form or another of tribalism.

    To me that is obvious, but, sadly, what Orwell wrote, decades ago, applies to our times:

    We have now sunk to a depth at which restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear. In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act.

    That diagnosis will apply to us as long as Trump continues to lie, and Trumpistas continue to follow him.

    (If you skipped over Radegunda’s fine summary in #157 of his efforts to “win”, regardless of actual votes, take the time to read it. Note, please, that those efforts began months before the 2020 election.)

    Jim Miller (85fd03)

  278. Lest you forget:

    Israel torpedoed sale of Iron Dome to Ukraine, fearing Russian reaction — report

    Kyiv approached US officials last year in bid to buy system, but Israel reportedly vetoed the idea

    Israel halted an attempt by the U.S. to transfer several batteries of the Iron Dome defense system to Ukraine over worries it would damage its relations with Russia… According to the report, the defense system’s capabilities — especially during the 2021 Gaza war — piqued the interest of Ukrainian officials. The country’s representatives began working vigorously in Washington last year to persuade US lawmakers to initiate a transfer of the rocket and mortar defense system to them.

    The Ukrainian government officially asked the Biden administration to transfer Patriot and Iron Dome missiles to Ukraine last spring. At the time, when then there were no worries of a possible Russian invasion, both Democratic and Republican lawmakers supported the transfer.

    However, due to Iron Dome being a joint Israeli-American project, a sale to a third party cannot take place without the approval of both developer countries. [Background: Raytheon, a major American defense contractor and the world’s largest producer of guided missiles, has the Israeli contract to supply $149.3 million in Tamir missiles, the projectiles used in Israel’s Iron Dome defense system. The Iron Dome system was jointly developed and funded by the U.S.]

    According to the report, Israeli officials made it clear to the U.S. administration in informal talks that it wouldn’t agree to the transfer of Iron Dome batteries to Kyiv, fearing it would hurt its relations with Russia, especially in light of Moscow’s influence over Syria. The Ukrainians, in turn, have in recent months made direct requests to the Israeli government and asked for officials to approve the sale.

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-torpedoed-sale-of-iron-dome-to-ukraine-fearing-russian-reaction-report/

    DCSCA (f42f57)

  279. I think only a couple people here will get this blast from the Wayback Machine, but I just got an offer from American Express for a line of credit, addressed to “Calblog.com” at my NM address.

    I looked to see if the letter was addressed to “Dear Mr Com.” But it wasn’t.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  280. They are more important than any of the other issues named in this thread.

    I think that’s the only real sticking point. Are they more important other attacks on democracy? What about attacks on individual freedoms, such as freedom of speech or religion? Where do they fall in the hierarchy of importance? What about Rule of Law? You can Rule of Law without having democracy, or with less of a democracy anyway. You can also have democracy and no Rule of Law.

    Most of the objections are to the insistence that your priorities are everyone’s priorities. That’s rather authoritarian actually.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  281. *You can have Rule of Law…

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  282. Patterico, I agree with your policy preferences on UKR. But I don’t think that UKR and election denialism are of comparable severity.

    The MAGA stance of appeasement is good reason not to vote for them, but it’s a reasonable policy stance. You can in good faith believe that opposing Putin’s brutal conquest of UKR isn’t in the US interest. Concerns about escalation into a nuclear exchange are valid policy preferences. As are wanting to spend those resources on inner city education. While I disagree with the views I have to acknowledge that they are valid positions. As was wanting to appease communist Russia, Nazi Germans, or Iraq’s invasion of Kuwait.

    Supporting Trump’s attempt to steal the presidency in 2020, and working to supplant the will of the people as expressed on the ballots of lawful voters (as Lake has implied she will do) is an entirely different thing. That has the potential to break our system of government. The vow of high office says to uphold the constitution because that process ensures rights to our dependents. Refusing to support the constitution based on repeatedly disproven lies about election fraud breaks our system.

    If Putin takes UKR it will be tragic in both life and in the opportunity lost to stop his expanse early, but we can recover from that as a country. If MAGA gets their way and create a means for their candidate to steal the presidency based on lies I’m not sure that there is a recovery path. Especially since the message from both parties is clear, that safeguarding our Democracy is less important then election results. The Democrats cynical choice to support anti-American candidates in GOP primaries in hopes they’re easier to defect in the general is almost as contemptable as supporting those candidates, but both are worse then any other policy preference.

    Just my 2 cents.

    Time123 (308dae)

  283. @Patterico

    1. Election denial. Kari Lake has said she would not have certified the 2020 election in Arizona. As Liz Cheney plainly states, this is a declaration that she will not certify any election where she disagrees with the outcome. There is no greater flouting of democracy and the rule of law. I would never vote for such a person.

    Absolutely defensible.

    You are a voter who can use whatever criterion to adjudicate your vote. Don’t let anyone else try to bully you into changing your criterion.

    For me, I’m not in Arizona (I live in Missouri) so I’m not as invested into Kari Lake as I would of candidates in my own state. Having said that, if I were an Arizonian and because Katie Hobbs is simply an awful candidate, I’d risk voting for Kari Lake hoping that her past election statements were simply pandering to certain voters who believes there were issues in the last election. You always have to hope that any candidate who gets elected would “grow” into their role and realize that what they previously promised shouldn’t be done after having “walked in those unique shoes”.

    2. Support for Ukraine. Here again, this is a fairly straightforward issue. Vladimir Putin is essentially Hitler with nukes. His aspirations are genocidal. He is a war criminal. He must be stopped. Yet Kevin McCarthy has sent a signal that Putin need only wait until November and our support may soften — apparently because Everything Joe Biden Does Is Bad even when it’s actually good.

    I’m very much on #TeamUkraine here.

    My hesitancy really stems from the lack of trust I have of Biden and the current States Dept to be able to navigate the proxy war against Russia without leading to a disastrously nuclear confrontation.

    I don’t know how viable this is, but I’d rather divert the US money/resources directly to our European allies, and have the European states be the “face” of the ‘Support of Ukrainian Defense Funds’. But honestly, our allies may be incapable to do so in the manner that Ukraine needs. (ie, we were the only country in the world to give them those HIMAR Mortar systems).

    whembly (b770f8)

  284. I think the more relevant question is “since when *was* there a blank check for Ukraine?”

    I think the more relevant question is “what was the full context of the statement”

    → Ukraine aid: McCarthy previewed that any request for more Ukraine aid would be more difficult in a House GOP majority. This is something we’ve sensed from our conversations with rank-and-file Republicans during the last few months. The United States has already spent more than $60 billion on economic and military aid since the Russian invasion of Ukraine in late February, funding that has gotten big bipartisan majorities in both chambers. That consensus may be fraying.

    “I think people are gonna be sitting in a recession and they’re not going to write a blank check to Ukraine. They just won’t do it. … It’s not a free blank check. And then there’s the things [the Biden administration] is not doing domestically. Not doing the border and people begin to weigh that. Ukraine is important, but at the same time it can’t be the only thing they do and it can’t be a blank check.”

    These kinds of comments could prompt the Biden administration to push for a full year of Ukraine aid during the lame duck, should Republicans win control of either chamber on Election Day. McCarthy may privately welcome this, in fact.

    Interview with Punchbowl Press 10/18/22

    This was in the course of an interview on mostly fiscal matters: debt ceiling, more COVID funding, Capitol Hill unions, plus things like immigration. In context, it was a statement that the GOP caucus would not be as forthcoming on spending money, and not just Ukraine.

    But read it yourself. It quite clearly been spun to encourage fence-sitters to vote D, and to confirm that choice for others. But nothing there showed any hostility by McCarthy towards Ukraine.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  285. Lest you forget: peruse this list; it oozes corporate hypocrisy and reveals just how porous Russian sanctions are.

    Over 1,000 Companies Have Curtailed Operations in Russia—But Some Remain

    These are just a few of the firms… but the lists are festooned w/firms from Europe, China, the USA– still doing business to varying degrees– and graded faccordin gly. Here’s just a few from the ‘F’ list:

    -Aimbridge / Interstate Hotels; still operating in Russia- United States
    -Align Technology / healthcare; still operating in Russia- United States
    -Antal /Industrials; still operating and actively hiring in Russia – United Kingdom
    -Carl’s Jr. / CLK – food services; still operating in Russia – United States
    -Check Point Software / selling cybersecurity products in Russia – Israel
    -Benetton; continue operations in Russia – Italy
    -Bharat Petroleum (BPCL); bought 2 million barrels of Russian Urals for May loading – India
    -BPW; still cooperating with dealers in Russia; not disclosed publicly disclosed – Germany
    -China National Petroleum Corporation; business as usual: oil – China
    -Cofix Coffee; maintains locations in Russia – Israel
    -Corendon Airlines; still flying to Russia – Turkey
    -Eutelsat; provide satellite TV services to Russia – France
    -Fleetcor; financial services; business as usual – United States
    -Giorgio Armani; still operating in Russia – Italy
    -Haier; planning expansion in Russia [Walmart USA is loaded w/their products]- China
    -Heidenhain; info-tech; still operating in Russia through a third-party – Germany
    -Huntsman Corporation; still operating in Russia – United States
    -Indian Oil Corporation; signed new deal to import Russian oil – India
    -International Paper; still operating in Russia – United States
    -IQVIA; still operating and actively hiring in Russia – United States
    -Itochu; continues oil & gas exploration partnerships w/Russia – Japan
    -Kawasaki; still operating in Russia, providing online sales & cooperating with dealers – Japan [‘Kawasaki let’s the good times roll’ — along w/Putin’s tanks, eh? ;-)]
    -Kemin; healthcare; still operating in Russia – United States
    -Lacoste; still operating in Russia – France
    -Match Group; communications; continue to operate in Russia including Tinder – United States
    -Micro-Star International Co.(MSi); infotech; still operating in Russia – Taiwan [oh, the irony.]
    -Mitsubishi Heavy Industries; industrials; still operating in Russia – Japan [Zero in on these guys: ‘From Those Wonderful folks who gave you Pearl Harbor’ Jerra Della Femina; unreal!]
    -Nippon Telegraph & Telephone Corp.; telecomm; continues to operate cloud services in Russia – Japan
    -Patreon; financial services; still providing services to Russia – United States
    -Philips; electronics, etc., – online sales still available in Russia – Netherlands
    -PowerChina; energy; cooperating w/a Russian bank “Solidarnost” on off-shore projects – China
    -Quicksilver; online sales still running – United States
    -SAIC Motor; remains operational; plans to increase exports to Russia – China
    -Sbarro Pizza; still operating in Russia and allowing placing online orders – United States
    -Semiconductor Manufacturing Int’l Corp.; defies US sanctions; continues exports to Russia – China
    -Siemens Healthineers; healthcare; continue to support providers in Russia – Germany
    -Signet Armorite; operating in Russia through a subsidiary – United States
    -Stryker; healthcare; continue sales and imports to Russia – United States
    -Tenneco; still operating in Russia – United States
    -TGI Friday’s; food services; still operating in Russia – United States
    -Titan International; industrials; still operating in Russia – United States
    -Tom Ford; still operating in Russia; – United States
    -Tupperware; still operating and actively hiring in Russia – United States
    -Turkish Airlines; still flying to Russia – Turkey
    -Valve; still providing services to Russia – United States
    -Zimmer Biomet; healthcare; continues sales in Russia – United States

    https://som.yale.edu/story/0/over-000-companies-have-curtailed-operations-russia-some-remain

    It’s truly despicable. If you’re gonna call the play-by-play in the game from your ideological armchairs, best to know the players on the field; or just go back to peddling popcorn to the crowds.

    DCSCA (f42f57)

  286. NY State Supreme Court reinstates all fired unvaccinated employees, orders backpay, says the state violated rights, acted arbitrary & capricious, notes:“Being vaccinated does not prevent an individual from contracting or transmitting Covid-19.”

    In New York the Supreme Court is a trial court, not the highest court. The highest court is the New York Court of Appeals.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  287. What about attacks on individual freedoms, such as freedom of speech or religion? Where do they fall in the hierarchy of importance?

    Kevin M (eeb9e9) — 10/25/2022 @ 2:59 pm

    They are important, but not as much as respecting election results.

    Attacks on individual freedoms such as speech or religion can be corrected in the next election, but not if elections are overturned.

    Where I struggle is trying to determine whether elections are really at risk. Do these candidates truly believe that the 2020 election was “stolen”, and will they try to overturn an election, or are they just humoring the rubes in order to amass votes? I suspect it is the latter. It appears that many candidates spouted the Trumpy nonsense to win their primaries, but are now focusing on issues like the economy, crime, and immigration.

    Look, it is what it is. Trump did a number on many people. Do we just dismiss them if they won’t renounce Trump, or do we bring them along by finding areas of agreement, while offering them an occasional sop to ease the path?

    People don’t like to be browbeaten into admitting mistakes. Perhaps we should do as Charlie Cooke suggests, and just simply muddle on until the zeitgeist changes and people are prepared to quietly accept their mistake in supporting Trump.

    Right now I’m leaning towards the opinion that Trumpism is on the wane. However, many elections are close, and a Republican candidate cannot afford to lose votes from Trumpers, even if their numbers are dwindling.

    I predict it is more likely that these people appealing to Trumpers will channel Trumper concerns into enhancing election security rather than trying to overturn elections.

    This isn’t the good old days of simple voting decisions. I resent the calculation I now must make. Do I give more weight to a bigger danger (an attempt to overturn an election) that is very unlikely to happen, and even more unlikely to succeed, or to a host of smaller dangers (the bad stuff from the left) that are likely to happen?

    I’m not certain that my take is the right one, and I’m willing to listen to other viewpoints.

    norcal (a1f318)

  288. … I’m willing to listen to other viewpoints.

    Cherry Jello tastes better than Lime or Orange Jello. 😉

    DCSCA (f42f57)

  289. Watch this and learn the history of the games in play.

    War and Peace In The Nuclear Age

    https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLeU3hzZa1meivlW7kd7SMEAvo2APRptJB

    The book is long to wade through but the TV series is easier to digest the perspectives from both sides. Strongly suggest watching this to understand the histories, the players and scenarios. A lot of what’s today is revisiting yesterdays.

    DCSCA (f42f57)

  290. No Tom Hynes 1987 in that race anymore…https://news.yahoo.com/independent-candidate-drops-pennsylvania-senate-230958384.html

    urbanleftbehind (4519e9)

  291. urbanleftbehind (4519e9) — 10/25/2022 @ 6:08 pm

    I wouldn’t be surprised if 1/3 of his voters don’t vote, 1/3 go to Fetterman, and 1/3 go to Oz, especially after Fetterman’s lackluster performance in the debate.

    norcal (a1f318)

  292. @294. Regardless of your politics, it was hard to watch– the struggle to complete thoughts and sentences was painfully evident. Fetterman is clearly not physically well- especially to manage a U.S. Senate seat.

    DCSCA (f42f57)

  293. @294 I have no problem with his health. It’s his politics.

    His response to the question about fracking was laughable.

    norcal (a1f318)

  294. In 2018 Fetterman said he was against fracking.

    During the debate he said “I have always supported fracking.”

    When the moderator called him on it, he just stood there. Finally, he said “I support fracking.”

    I doubt any undecided voters were impressed.

    norcal (a1f318)

  295. Appalled 139: I am an isolationist. We should not have armed Ukraine under Obama/Trump, we should not be arming them now. We can condemn Putin’s illegal invasion and use diplomatic means to try to end the war. The people of Ukraine will continue to be pulverized by both sides as long as the war is prolonged.
    I don’t see Putin as Hitler. That is, I don’t think he is after world or even European domination. He is more akin to a gangster that feels threatened that his territory is being encroached.

    nk: Foreign Affairs magazine, published by the Council on Foreign Relations, is a Russian organ?

    kaf (942db4)

  296. Your link was to https://responsiblestatecraft.org/2022/09/02/diplomacy-watch-why-did-the-west-stop-a-peace-deal-in-ukraine/, kaf. Which, if it is not a Russian organ, then the Kremlin is a hotel in Pittsburgh.

    nk (32b387)

  297. @296. I have no problem with his health.

    He does.

    DCSCA (f42f57)

  298. @151. You want high pressure? Try 3 PM deadlines, daily, in a 24/7, 365 news cycle.

    Try signing off on a $200K chip spin. Probably more now.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  299. Where I struggle is trying to determine whether elections are really at risk.

    I think we can all agree that, whatever Trump’s intentions, his ability to get stuff done is minimal. I guess the concern is next time it might be better organized, but it would have to be by some other folks because everyone involved in J6 was a colossal eff-up.

    I’m not sure, but ridicule might have been a better approach.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  300. I predict it is more likely that these people appealing to Trumpers will channel Trumper concerns into enhancing election security rather than trying to overturn elections.

    Or, more likely, just treat them like the chumps they are and fleece them some more.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  301. Like I’ve already said, the GOP should have frozen Trump out, and gone full cellblock punk on his supporters: “It’s us or the Democrats.” It’s not like they have not always been doing it. We’re seeing it on this very thread.

    nk (32b387)

  302. If Putin takes UKR…

    I wouldn’t say “if” because Putin will never conquer Ukraine. He’ll be lucky to keep the territory he has, and it’s in our interests (and Ukraine’s, of course) that Ukraine gets all their homeland back.

    I agree that our democracy is more important than helping a Ukrainian ally, because we couldn’t help an ally without our strong democracy, but helping an ally against a fascist dictator is nevertheless a high priority.

    For one, even though Putin s-at all over the Budapest Memorandum, the US did promise Ukrainians security assurances, and we’re living up to that agreement, and we’re supposed to do that as the United States of America. We’re not supposed to be nation that bails on allies, like we did with the Syrian Kurds.

    For another, if Putin isn’t stopped in Ukraine and stuck in an ugly quagmire, then he’s well established that he won’t stop his imperialist expansionist belligerent ways, and he really is the fascist dictator of this century.

    For another, because Biden cocked it up so badly in Afghanistan, Putin saw weakness and started amassing his troops right after, so much so that he couldn’t be dissuaded. More importantly, Xi saw it, too. Our aid response to Putin’s criminal invasion has to affect the ChiComs’ thinking about Taiwan, and Taiwan is a major national interest of ours, what with their market share on semiconductors. Our response was also necessary because, well, see Biden’s cock-up on Afghanistan.

    Paul Montagu (753b42)

  303. Putin apologists — you know who you are — this is who you’re in bed with.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  304. Like I’ve already said, the GOP should have frozen Trump out

    In 2016, when he would not commit to supporting the eventual nominee.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  305. For another, if Putin isn’t stopped in Ukraine

    If he succeeds in Ukraine because “we don’t want to risk war” then NATO has utterly no credibility and it’ll suck to be Finland.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  306. Democrats see election reverting to the mean despite running against crazys and perverts. See az tom horn and his pedo room mate. What can republicans do about inflation except ask their friends in big business to lower prices to help them ;but that would help biden too. More of the same with the left taking over the party base and clear out the corrupt old farts.

    asset (40c8aa)

  307. thanks to mensa mccarthy’s pandering to cut social security and medicare seniors who normally vote republican are tied with democrats 48/48 in latest ny times poll over fear of benefits cut. Maybe mccarthy can get his room mate frank luntz to explain it to him.

    asset (40c8aa)

  308. Here is another example of media bias.

    The ABC News broadcast on the radio at the top of each hour has twice now mentioned the Oz-Fetterman debate. Did they cover Fetterman’s deer-in-the-headlights rank dishonesty regarding fracking? Nope.

    It was Medicare and abortion. Bias by omission.

    norcal (a1f318)

  309. @311 Are they any more bias then right wing talk radio? They get into media to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable. Conservative media wants to comfort the comfortable and afflict the afflicted. Why should the liberal media treat evil as not evil?

    asset (40c8aa)

  310. “Get the shot and get $5, $10, $20 off your drug store or grocery purchase”

    https://twitter.com/endwokeness/status/1584973134805233664?s=46&t=mxrNHFnwLPvL6bjvono-NA

    There are Conservatives who not only voted for this, but are willing to vote for it again.

    Obudman (f3fd2e)

  311. There are Conservatives who not only voted for this, but are willing to vote for it again.

    I will grant you “Conservatives” for argument’s sake, but yes, you’re right, polls continue to show that Trump’s supporters would vote for him again.

    He warp-sped the vaccine and sent out $1,800 checks (not some measly $5, $10, and $20 discount coupons) in case you have forgotten.

    nk (32b387)

  312. Why should the liberal media treat evil as not evil?

    When has the media ever not been hostile to Republicans? Bush, McCain, Romney…all evil. Okay.

    Notice that after they leave office, the coverage changes. This is because the real object of dislike isn’t these figures personally, but the voters whom they represent. Once they leave office or lose an election or whatever, and so stop representing those voters, there is no reason for the continued negative coverage.

    mikeybates (dd20f5)

  313. Matter of fact, nk, if he had gotten the vaccine announce a couple weeks faster, he’d be president today and all the Trumpsters would be pointing to it as his greatest success and demanding everyone get the shot.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  314. If McCarthy wants to credibly make and announce foreign policies, he needs to win an election from somewhere more important than a gerrymandered California Congressional district.

    DRJ (39dca8)

  315. @315 Reagan said I didn’t leave the democrat party the democrat party left me when it kicked out the ku klux klanners and racists. This is why the media is hostile to most rethugliKKKans. Today rethugs are staking out voting places armed and in tactical gear. Trying to stop democrats from voting. Why shouldn’t the media be adverse to these neo-nazis?

    asset (1fa6d1)

  316. The Democratic Party was/is home to Communists and socialists. Neither Party can pass a purity test because there are all sorts of folks in both.

    DRJ (b0685b)

  317. He warp-sped the vaccine and sent out $1,800 checks (not some measly $5, $10, and $20 discount coupons) in case you have forgotten

    … to Americans.

    As opposed to Squinty freely shoveling billions of dollars to corrupt, non-citizens in Ukraine.

    Bad Boy, Joey.

    DCSCA (02b654)


Powered by WordPress.

Page loaded in: 0.3389 secs.