Patterico's Pontifications

9/28/2022

Nord 1 and 2 “Leaks” The Result of Sabotage?

Filed under: General — Dana @ 8:16 am



[guest post by Dana]

After explosions in the Baltic Sea resulted in leaks in the Nordstream pipelines below the surface, Germany, Denmark and Sweden said said that the “leak” was the result of a deliberate act. European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen said that an investigation must be done. U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken was a bit more restrained in his comments, and while not ruling out the possibility of sabotage, said: If it is confirmed, that’s clearly in no one’s interest.”

Ukraine showed no restraint, however, and directly blamed Russia for the leak:

Ukrainian presidential adviser Mykhailo Podolyak earlier pinned the blame directly on Russia, accusing it of an “act of aggression” and attempting to “destabilize economic situation in Europe and cause prewinter panic.”

Jakub Godzimirski, a research professor at the Norwegian Institute of International Affairs who focuses on Russian foreign and security policy, put it this way:

“There is also the particular dimension that this could be used to further escalate the conflict between Russia and the West,” Godzimirski said.

“If Russia is going to accuse, especially NATO for conducting this kind of operation against Russian infrastructure, this could be something that could strengthen the image of Russia being at war with not only Ukraine, but also with NATO.”

It wouldn’t be surprising if this turned out to be yet one more false flag operation by Russia. After all, they have a history of playing that game.

–Dana

82 Responses to “Nord 1 and 2 “Leaks” The Result of Sabotage?”

  1. Good morning.

    Dana (1225fc)

  2. There’s a list of suspects but no real proof, as yet.
    It could be the US, and experts like Sikorski are saying so, and so are non-expert pro-Putin hacks like Tucker Carlson. The question is whether Biden is bold enough and devilish enough to do it. I have my doubts. Also, the CIA warned of such an attack, and several anonymous European sources blame Putin.

    It could be Russia, as a false flag, and Putin does have devilish boldness. Nord 2 is basically dead and Putin cut off Nord 1, and he has other ways to deliver oil to Europe. There’s also the odd forged document that passed itself off as a RAND study. It could be that Putin wanted to punish Germany. It could be that he decided to sell his oil to India and ChiComs and the hell with Europe.

    It could be the Baltic states or Poland, which opposed the Nord pipelines from Day One.
    It could be Norway, which has its own oil to sell.
    It could be militant German green activists. They could get divers, but where do they get bombs that cause a 2.3 Richter level explosion? Doubtful.
    It could be Ukrainians, but I doubt it because they’re a little busy and they don’t have a real navy. However, they’ve proven to be daring and creative, so I don’t rule them out.
    Are there other suspects? Doubtful, IMO.
    There are lots of “coulds”. Yesterday, I wavered from Russia to the US and now I’m leaning slightly toward Russia, but who knows. I think we’ll get confirmation sooner than later.

    Paul Montagu (753b42)

  3. Well, Tucker Carlson blames Biden and the US.

    https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/tucker-carlson-what-happened-nord-stream-pipeline

    He’s just asking questions, don’t you know. The argument is above. (Basically, it would be nuts to blow up your own pipeline, so of course Putin wouldn’t do it. But Biden would, because he’s nuts, senile, evil, etc)

    Appalled (03f53c)

  4. Paul,

    Sabotaging the pipelines are an act of war against putative allies. I could see the Baltics maybe doing it out of desparation but not the US. Since there is no gas being supplied to Europe through the pipeline at all, and the damage can be repaired pretty easily, Russia has to be suspected. This false flag does not cost them that much and how many more sanctions can the West impose on them?

    Appalled (03f53c)

  5. But Biden would, because he’s nuts, senile, evil, etc)

    Well, he is.

    AND:

    Squinty McBlabbermouth already shot his wad on this in February:

    Biden vows US will ‘end’ Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline if Ukraine invaded by Russia

    https://nypost.com/2022/02/07/biden-vows-us-will-end-nord-stream-2-gas-pipeline-if-ukraine-invaded/

    Just game it out: doesn’t make much sense for Putin to cut off any line of energy to paying customers w/his cashflow needs, especially by blowing it up instead of just terminating flow w/o destroying the delivery system- especially at the locales involved- in int’l waters.

    My own personal experience a la Libya circa 1969, as noted on another thread, suggests
    “The West” can be quite amoral about such matters and likely did it- either the U.S. directly or via a proxy- NATO or otherwise, for plausible deniability purposes.

    DCSCA (699eb9)

  6. @4. Sabotaging the pipelines are an act of war against putative allies.

    So is conspiring to decapitate the head of a nation state via proxy and offering the ‘assets’ to do it.

    DCSCA (699eb9)

  7. Russia did not say it was sabotage. I think that Russia wanted to make it appear to be an accident but the technology of Denmark and Sweden, and those managing the pipeline was too good for that and besides, it happened to two pipelines at the same time. I don’t think Russia was trying to blame Ukraine (maybe a NATOO country is possible) because Ukraine doos not have any submarines or ships in the Baltic Sea, and such an accusation would not be plausible without claiming that Ukraine had penetrated the Russian military.

    Russia had previously shut down some gas pipeline for “maintenance”

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/aug/31/nord-stream-1-russia-switches-off-gas-pipeline-citing-maintenance

    But that did not play well:

    https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/view-officials-question-motives-russias-gas-pipeline-halt-2022-09-02/

    But that’s not the reason. Russia is just trying to get rid of the gas without selling it. It has no place to store it.

    They had no other way to withhold gas, besides burning it at the wellhead, but that causes pollution (albeit only local and since when does Putin care?) and that also is very anti-“green” (adds some extra carbon dioxide to the atmosphere) and that could create some difficulties and Russia could come in for criticism from new places.

    The problem is that Russia has no place to put gas it isn’t selling to Europe: Pipelines only go to certain places; they have limited storage, and no no means to convert it to Liquified Natural Gas, and so the only thing to do, if they want to cut delivery, is to lose some of it along the way.

    A leak which can be repaired pretty quickly when they are ready is better than capping the well, because delivery can be restarted faster than production can be ramped up after a well’s production is reduced..

    So Putin decided that there should be an accident or two.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  8. I’m sure Stella, Ursula and antony will stay in step and figure it out.

    Colonel Haiku (0416b6)

  9. DCSCA (699eb9) — 9/28/2022 @ 9:20 am

    Just game it out: doesn’t make much sense for Putin to cut off any line of energy to paying customers w/his cashflow needs,

    Th2e war is pretty important to Putin, and he’s floundering.

    especially by blowing it up instead of just terminating flow w/o destroying the delivery system- especially at the locales involved- in int’l waters.

    Putin had no place to put gas he decided not to sell. Capping the wells or burning it off are worse alternatives.

    He didn’t spend (or have) much time to figure out how to make an accident plausible, and some pollution at the bottom of the sea, outside Russia, is better for him than in Russia.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  10. But that’s not the reason. Russia is just trying to get rid of the gas without selling it. It has no place to store it.

    Store it??? Just limit production in period of low demand [which winter in the northern hemisphere is NOT]– or find a Chinese customer to tanker it to via rail or ship. [My late father managed trafficking LPG tanker ops out of Europe for a time.] That’s how the biz operates- the ground level mechanics of it are independent of the politics. Producers can always find a customer for product through 2nd, 3rd or 4th party customers at the right price. Producers just don’t ‘get rid’ of product.

    “The world- is a business, Mr. Beale.” – Arthur Jensen [Ned Beatty] ‘Network’ 1976

    DCSCA (699eb9)

  11. Appalled (03f53c) — 9/28/2022 @ 9:16 am

    Since there is no gas being supplied to Europe through the pipeline at all, and the damage can be repaired pretty easily, Russia has to be suspected. This false flag does not cost them that much and how many more sanctions can the West impose on them?

    It is no false flag. It was supposed to be an accident.

    Russia needed to lose some of the gas because they couldn’t store it; couldn’t sell it elsewhere (no delivery system) and didn’t want to cut production – which would reduce output for some time. This can be restored mmuch faster than reduced production.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  12. Russia needed to lose some of the gas because they couldn’t store it; couldn’t sell it elsewhere (no delivery system) and didn’t want to cut production – which would reduce output for some time.

    They have a customer, Sammy: China. And pipelines/train tankers existing– and in construction to move product.

    DCSCA (699eb9)

  13. Tucker Carlson, never missing a chance to blame America first…..I really appreciate his concern about the escaping methane and climate change, it’s touching.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  14. Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 9/28/2022 @ 9:51 am

    Soon to appear on a Kremlin TV network near you.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  15. @13

    That’s Putin’s interest In blowing it up. Putin puppets like Tucker Carlson can blame the US.

    Purplehaze (05dea1)

  16. @13. “Blame?” More like expose; a broken clock is right twice a day, Rip. And in this instance, whether you like it or not, he’s likely correct. Deal with it.

    DCSCA (699eb9)

  17. DCSCA (699eb9) — 9/28/2022 @ 9:38 am

    Store it??? Just limit production in period of low demand [which winter in the northern hemisphere is NOT]– or find a Chinese customer to tanker it to via rail or ship.

    They can’t reduce production without limiting their ability to produce and they can’t deliver it anywhere else

    No pipelines. Limited or non-existent LNG facilities,

    [My late father managed trafficking LPG tanker ops out of Europe for a time.] That’s how the biz operates- the ground level mechanics of it are independent of the politics. Producers can always find a customer for product through 2nd, 3rd or 4th party customers at the right price. Producers just don’t ‘get rid’ of product.

    Gazprom may be a big company, but it didn’t create logistical alternative possibilities for delivering gas that a non-Russian company would have done.

    Do you have a movie quote for a company run this way?

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  18. The fact that Putin didn’t reduce production is an indication that he hopes to resume full level sales soon, and needs the money.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  19. DCSCA,

    If you look at the Deutsches Welle areticle that Dana links to, you’ll see a long discurse about whether the explosions came frm insight or outside the pipeline. If the explosion is inside the pipe — it’s Russia. If it’s outside — we’ll see.

    Appalled (03f53c)

  20. DCSCA (699eb9) — 9/28/2022 @ 9:46 am

    They have a customer, Sammy: China.

    For oil, not for gas. No means to deliver it to China.

    And pipelines/train tankers existing– and in construction to move product.

    They don’t have it. Whatever is under construction will take years to build.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  21. @17. Who do you think get subcontracted for field operations and trafficking ops to keep product flowing for firms like Gazprom. Of course they can deliver product; there’s always a customer and a route to market at the right price.

    “Tell the pilots their request is outside the area of their competence.” – Charles Keith [Gregory Peck] ‘Marooned’ 1969

    DCSCA (699eb9)

  22. If it was from outside it could still have been done by Russia (if bot by Gazprom) but it would be easier to do it from inside. But any ship or submarines would be known.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  23. https://www.upstreamonline.com/production/gazprom-readies-new-gas-supplies-for-china-via-sila-sibiri-1/2-1-1303441

    Gazprom readies new gas supplies for China via Sila Sibiri 1

    Despite optimistic promises on securing alternative export routes to Asia, Russian gas giant has had to shut-in production at legacy fields in East Siberia this year

    No place to put the gas. They needed to damage the pipeline and create leaks if they wanted to cut deliveries to Europe without cutting production.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  24. Sabotaging the pipelines are an act of war against putative allies.

    I’d like to get a ruling on that. The explosion happened in international waters, and I’m not sure who actually owns the pipelines, but I’ll agree that it’s an act of war absent a convincing case otherwise.

    Paul Montagu (753b42)

  25. If the explosion is inside the pipe — it’s Russia. If it’s outside — we’ll see

    =Sheesh= Don’t be naive. Black ops can make anything look like what they want– ask dead Gordon Liddy… or Oliver North. And oil execs were two votes short of greenlighting knocking off Kaddafi inside Libya with “assets” supplied by the U.S. government to make it look like an internal coup.

    Besides, Squinty McBlabbermouth already tipped off the world at his presser in Germany in February–because, as he boasted in 2019: Putin knows, if I am president of the United States, his days of tyranny and trying to intimidate the United States and those in Eastern Europe are over…

    Boy, does Brit Hume have him pegged.

    DCSCA (699eb9)

  26. Sabotaging the pipelines are an act of war against putative allies.

    Well, that settles it. Russia denied it. C’mon, Sammy.

    Paul Montagu (753b42)

  27. Just don’t put the FBI on the case.

    Colonel Haiku (0416b6)

  28. @24. So was the Bay of Pigs invasion by JFK; the blockading of Cuba, the USSR shooting down Gary Powers U-2 spy plane over Russia and Rudolph Anderson’s killing over Cuba, NorKo stealing the USS Pueblo– Russia shooting down KAL 007; the USS Vincennes shooting down Iran Air 655… Saudis piloting planes into the WTC and the Pentagon… Ike’s part in overthrowing Iran’s government w/t Brits in 1953– and, of course, Blofeld stealing American and Russian spaceships right out of orbit. 😉

    ‘Acts of war’ happen more often than any side likes to admit– and are often overlooked for good reason. Let’s vaporize civilization over them instead. =sarc=

    DCSCA (699eb9)

  29. 13 & !4. Tucker Carlson needs to be invited to put on a show for the troops. At Gitmo.

    nk (f583bd)

  30. I think the Federal Reserve Board is doing more to destabilize economic situation in Europe.

    https://www.cnbc.com/2022/09/23/from-the-fed-to-europes-currency-crisis-heres-whats-behind-this-selloff-in-financial-markets.html

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  31. I’m responsible for the “act of war” phrase. So I better put in the context I had in mind.

    I believe if the US bombed the pipeline, it’s an act of war against its NATO allies. It would certainly be viewed that way in Germany. This provides Russia with the desire to “create” an act of US sabotage, and makes it extremey unlikely the US would do it, at this time. Yeah, we don’t like the pipeline at all. But it’s shut down and Germany seems to want to keep it shut down.

    If Russia bombed their own pipeline — it’s just another Putinesque stunt. No reason to do anything more than we are already.

    Appalled (03f53c)

  32. Just don’t put the FBI on the case.
    Colonel Haiku (0416b6) — 9/28/2022 @ 10:35 am

    yeah, they won’t find this leaker either

    JF (301629)

  33. @33. One man’s ‘act of war’ is another man’s handywork of ‘espionage.’ You read too much into it looki ng for blame. It’s pure black ops. But you’d like to think some technician has turned a valve or two and shut off the flow through the pipeline by now– if only to stop losing product.

    DCSCA (699eb9)

  34. @354. Yeah! Wasn’t Alito in Europe recently?

    Does SCOTUS moonlight at SCUBA? 😉

    DCSCA (699eb9)

  35. I am amused (and it goes both ways) how the elements of the Right have turned reflexively anti-American (looking at you, ex-bowtie boy Tucker) and the bomb throwers at DailyKos are now complaining about people who are reflexively anti-American.

    Appalled (c5f7aa)

  36. I see it as a false false flag. IF they can blame it on the Russians AND get Germany to give up on the idea of Russian gas, the Ukrainians can gain quite a bit.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  37. Tucker Carlson needs to be invited to put on a show for the troops. At Gitmo.

    I’m thinking Leavenworth. His kind of people.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  38. Jesus-effing Christ Almighty:

    ‘Where’s Jackie?’ President Biden calls out dead congresswoman during speech

    WASHINGTON — President Joe Biden appeared to call out the late former Rep. Jackie Walorski, R-Ind., who died in a car wreck in August, for being in attendance during a speech Wednesday at the White House Conference on Hunger, Nutrition, and Health.

    Biden thanked “all of you here,” singling out Walorski and other lawmakers, for their work on hunger as he spoke about his administration’s efforts to end hunger in the U.S. by 2030. “Jackie, are you here? Where’s Jackie? I don’t think – she was going to be here,” Biden said. Walorski and two of her congressional staff members died in August during a head-on car collision in northern Indiana. She was 58.

    White House press secretary Karine Jean-Pierre said Walorski was “on top of mind” for the president when asked about the gaffe because of the former congresswoman’s work on hunger and ahead of Biden hosting the Walorski family Friday at the White House. Jean-Pierre said she believes Americans will understand why Biden was thinking about Walorski. “I don’t think it’s all that unusual to have someone top of mind.” – USAToday.com

    Bull sh!t.

    Squinty, she’s having lunch with Beau and Queen Elizabeth II, you incredibly brain dead imbecile.

    DCSCA (699eb9)

  39. @39. I’m thinking Leavenworth. His kind of people.

    Don’t give him any ideas:

    ‘Johnny Cash was at the height of his popularity when he recorded the song ‘A Boy Named Sue’ live at California’s San Quentin State Prison at a concert on February 24, 1969. The song became Cash’s biggest hit on the Billboard Hot 100 chart. It was his only top ten single there, spending three weeks at No. 2 in 1969. The track also topped the Billboard Hot Country Songs and Hot Adult Contemporary Tracks charts that same year. It was certified Gold on August 14, 1969, by the RIAA.’ – wikihelloImJohnnyCash.com

    DCSCA (699eb9)

  40. Tucker Carlson’s shoddy case linking U.S. to alleged Nord Stream sabotage
    ……
    ……Carlson’s supposed evidence for this being a U.S. operation is decidedly weak.
    ………
    Perhaps the most prominent quote Carlson used was from President Biden in February: Biden had said that, if Russia invades Ukraine, “there will be no longer a Nord Stream 2. We will bring an end to it.”

    Carlson treated this as no less than a smoking gun. He cast Biden’s comments as the president’s saying “that he might take out these pipelines.” Despite often casting Biden as a doddering old fool, Carlson assured that, in this instance, the president must have chosen his words carefully: “He said there won’t be a Nord Stream 2. We’ll put an end to it. We will take it out. We will blow it up.”

    …….. Biden did not say we would “blow it up,” unless you’re using that phrase metaphorically. ……But Carlson’s aim is clearly to make people think about it literally.

    Carlson then turned to another Biden administration official who he suggested publicly previewed just such a potential strike. It was top State Department official Victoria Nuland, who said in January, “If Russia invades Ukraine, one way or another, Nord Stream 2 will not move forward.”

    Carlson highlighted the “one way or another” as being a potential threat to use sabotage — similar to Biden’s “bring an end to it.”

    But there is a very readily available, alternative explanation for these veiled and unspecific promises to halt Nord Stream 2: The fact that it wasn’t at all clear how the United States could actually achieve its goal of shutting it down if Russia invaded. After all, Europe would be giving up a key energy source, and the decision largely rested with Germany.
    …….
    The last source Carlson cited was not a U.S. politician, but a European one. Radek Sikorski is a member of European Parliament representing Poland and is a former defense and foreign minister of the country. His Twitter account on Tuesday featured a photo of gas bubbling up to the surface of the Baltic Sea, with the brief message: “Thank you, USA.”
    …….
    But his meaning wasn’t entirely clear; it seems possible he was crediting the United States with rendering the pipelines moot by pressuring Europe not to take Russian natural gas. In later tweets (below), he seemed actually to point to Russian sabotage, citing a supposed Russian “special maintenance operation” on the pipelines.
    ……..
    This is effectively the totality of the supposed hard evidence Carlson had for his theory. Beyond that, it was rank speculation and evaluating the various motives involved — motives that Carlson has long claimed that on the Biden administration’s side include exacerbating the war in Ukraine.

    ……Ultimately, he delivered his speculation as if it were fact and invited his viewers to do the same.
    ………
    Carlson then invited his guest, former congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard (D-Hawaii), to join in the speculation…..(but) she wasn’t going there.

    “I don’t have the evidence of who was responsible for this,” Gabbard said before proceeding to speak more generally about the dangers of the situation.
    ………

    Coincidentally, one the same day the opening of the new Baltic Pipe was announced, which will transport natural gas from the Norwegian shelf via Denmark and through the Baltic Sea to Poland.

    Related:

    Radek Sikorski MEP
    @radeksikorski
    All Ukrainian and Baltic sea states have opposed Nordstream’s construction for 20 years.

    Now $20 billion of scrap metal lies at the bottom of the sea, another cost to Russia of its criminal decision to invade Ukraine.
    Someone, @MFA_Russia did a special maintenance operation.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  41. Tucker Carlson’s shoddy case linking U.S. to alleged Nord Stream sabotage

    Pfffffft:

    Biden vows US will ‘end’ Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline if Ukraine invaded by Russia

    https://nypost.com/2022/02/07/biden-vows-us-will-end-nord-stream-2-gas-pipeline-if-ukraine-invaded/

    Shoddy: Squinty McBlabbermouth talks too much– and now he’s talking to the dead:

    Biden asks if deceased congresswoman is present at White House food insecurity conference

    source, https://www.cnn.com/2022/09/28/politics/biden-jackie-walorski-hunger-conference/index.html

    When you lose CNN…

    DCSCA (699eb9)

  42. @Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 9/28/2022 @ 1:56 pm

    Tucker Carlson is dishonest, but so is a lot of other broadcast right wing propaganda/arguments.

    Biden was threatening to end Nord Stream with sanctions.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  43. Biden forgot she died, or it never registered.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  44. OT: Yeah, this is about right:
    https://www.nationalreview.com/2022/09/the-case-for-dismantling-the-fbi/


    The result of this trend has been disastrous. In the heart of its capital city, the United States now has a bureau that intervenes with impunity in our ideological and partisan disputes; that has developed a massive, statutorily unwarranted intelligence-collection wing; and that has never managed to escape the paranoia and corruption of its execrable, tyrannical founder. Americans who are tired of it all ought to insist that it be dismantled wholesale, and that any replacement be approved only after a long, meaningful, sanctimony-free debate about the role of the government — and its enforcers — in our lives.

    whembly (b770f8)

  45. Perhaps the most prominent quote Carlson used was from President Biden in February: Biden had said that, if Russia invades Ukraine, “there will be no longer a Nord Stream 2. We will bring an end to it.”

    Carlson treated this as no less than a smoking gun.

    It is. Just like:

    “So unlike Ukraine, to be clear, sir — US forces, US men and women, would defend Taiwan in the event of a Chinese invasion?” Scott Pelley on ’60 Minutes; clarified.

    “Yes,” Biden said.

    He has said this FOUR times.

    He’s not a windbag senator anymore: He’s POTUS. And his words matter- especially when talking war, peace– and to the DEAD.

    “We’d like to get a sample of your brain tissue.” – Egon Spengler [Harold Ramis] ‘Ghostbusters’ 1984

    DCSCA (699eb9)

  46. Biden forgot

    Jesus wept.
    John 11:35

    DCSCA (699eb9)

  47. Oh, Biden wanted to shut down the Nord Stream pipeline . Just not this way.

    Putin was cutting back on his supply of gas to Europe, and I said, he had no other way to so, while leaving himself the option of resuming service quickly, (which he would not have if he cut production) except to damage the pipeline, because he had no other place to send the gas.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  48. U.S. Embassy in Moscow calling on all Americans to leave Russia, particularly men of draft age with dual citizenship and they should leave immediately because commercial travel options may be cut off, especially air travel. Land travel may last longer.

    It says also that U.S. citizens should steer clear of public protests because the right to peaceful assembly and freedom of expression are not guaranteed in Russia.

    https://www.newser.com/story/325979/us-embassy-to-americans-leave-russia-immediately.html

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  49. Maybe Biden was never briefed that Jackie Walorski had died and still expected her t be there, a month after her death.

    Didn;t he notice this bill:

    https://www.wfyi.org/news/articles/bill-to-rename-va-clinic-for-walorski-headed-to-bidens-desk

    And this:

    https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/09/09/election-denial-obituaries-00055787

    The deaths of all three members of Congress were greeted with genuine sorrow by Republican allies and generous aisle-crossing statements by the likes of Joe Biden and Nancy Pelosi — warm remembrances attesting to faith and friendship and devotion to public service.

    Not clear from this if Biden’s office issued a statement.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  50. @50. Too bad Bugs Moran won’t let his people go:

    Ukraine announced… that men between the ages of 18 and 60 were forbidden from leaving the nation, which has been under martial law since the start of the Russian invasion.

    https://nypost.com/2022/02/25/ukraine-men-ordered-to-stay-and-fight-russia-as-others-flee/

    DCSCA (699eb9)

  51. @51. “Biden had issued a statement upon her death, saying that both he and first lady Dr. Jill Biden were “shocked and saddened” by her passing. The White House also flew flags at half-staff in honor of her death. “We may have represented different parties and disagreed on many issues, but she was respected by members of both parties for her work on the House Ways and Means Committee on which she served,” Biden’s statement last month said. “She also served as co-chair of the House Hunger Caucus, and my team and I appreciated her partnership as we plan for a historic White House Conference on Hunger, Nutrition, and Health this fall that will be marked by her deep care for the needs of rural America.” – CNN.com

    This guy is frigging brain damaged and keeps oozing reasons to implement the 25th Amendment.

    DCSCA (699eb9)

  52. Colonel Haiku (0416b6) — 9/28/2022 @ 9:30 am

    Ha! I like it!

    felipe (484255)

  53. He felipe, in case it scrolled off, I want to call attention to my apology in the other thread.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  54. Your apology is accepted, and my respect for you only grows, aphrael. Thank you.

    felipe (484255)

  55. Just saw a story on France24 that claimed that about 200K young Russian men had already fled the country, and that there were long lines at the borders of nations like Mongolia and Georgia. Since Russia has a population of about 145 million, less than half as large as ours, the equivalent would be more than 400K leaving the US.

    Here’s a story from two days ago describing the leavers:

    “I have no choice but to flee Russia,” Nikita told AFP standing outside the Georgian side of the Kazbegi border crossing in a narrow rocky ravine.

    “Why on earth would I need to go to that crazy war?” the 23-year-old added “I am no cannon fodder. I am not a murderer,” he said as a vulture circled overhead, high in the clear sky.

    “Czar” Putin does not seem to be a competent military commander.

    Jim Miller (85fd03)

  56. 👍 felipe! Someone is old enough to get it!

    Colonel Haiku (0416b6)

  57. European security officials observed Russian Navy ships in vicinity of Nord Stream pipeline leaks

    European security officials on Monday and Tuesday observed Russian Navy support ships in the vicinity of leaks in the Nord Stream pipelines likely caused by underwater explosions, according two Western intelligence officials and one other source familiar with the matter.

    It’s unclear whether the ships had anything to do with those explosions, these sources and others said – but it’s one of the many factors that investigators will be looking into.

    Russian submarines were also observed not far from those areas last week, one of the intelligence officials said.
    ……..
    But the sightings still cast further suspicion on Russia, which has drawn the most attention from both European and US officials as the only actor in the region believed to have both the capability and motivation to deliberately damage the pipelines.
    …….
    But one senior US official and a US military official both said Russia is still the leading suspect – assuming that the European assessment of deliberate sabotage is borne out – because there are no other plausible suspects with the ability and will to carry out the operation.

    “It’s hard to imagine any other actor in the region with the capabilities and interest to carry out such an operation,” the Danish military official said.

    Russia has requested a UN Security Council meeting on the damaged pipeline this week – something the senior US official said is also suspicious. Typically, the official said, Russia isn’t organized enough to move so quickly, suggesting that the maneuver was pre-planned.
    …….
    …….[O]fficials familiar with the latest intelligence say that Moscow would likely view such a step as worth the price if it helped raise the costs of supporting Ukraine for Europe. US and western intelligence officials believe Russian President Vladimir Putin is gambling that as electricity costs rise and winter approaches, European publics could turn against the Western strategy of isolating Russia economically. Sabotaging the pipelines could “show what Russia is capable of,” one US official said.

    Russia has already taken steps to manipulate energy flows in ways that caused itself economic pain, but also hurt Europe. Russia slashed gas supplies to Europe via Nord Stream 1 before suspending flows altogether in August, blaming Western sanctions for causing technical difficulties. European politicians say that was a pretext to stop supplying gas.

    “They’ve already shown they’re perfectly happy to do that,” one of the sources said. “They weight their economic pain against Europe’s.”
    ………

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  58. @57. “Why on earth would I need to go to that crazy war?” the 23-year-old added “I am no cannon fodder. I am not a murderer,” he said as a vulture circled overhead, high in the clear sky.

    ROFLMAO

    ‘Estimates vary greatly as to how many Americans settled in Canada for the specific reason of dodging the draft or “evading conscription,” as opposed to desertion, or other reasons. Canadian immigration statistics show that 20,000 to 30,000 draft-eligible American men came to Canada as immigrants during the Vietnam era. The BBC stated that “as many as 60,000 young American men dodged the draft.” Estimates of the total number of American citizens who moved to Canada due to their opposition to the war range from 50,000 to 125,000. This exodus was “the largest politically motivated migration from the United States since the United Empire Loyalists moved north to oppose the American Revolution.” Major communities of war resisters formed in Montreal, the Slocan Valley, British Columbia, and on Baldwin Street in Toronto, Ontario. – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada_and_the_Vietnam_War

    Sing it, Joe!!!!!:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRl6-bHlz-4&t=18s

    DCSCA (6b60b8)

  59. R.I.P. Coolio. Probably couldn’t take 2 Gangster’s Paradise like shootings in 24 hours.

    https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/coolio-found-dead-age-59-005125986.html

    urbanleftbehind (fc2d79)

  60. Life imitates art.

    “The eye of the storm will pass over the Cape.” – ‘Marooned’ 1969

    DCSCA (7352b5)

  61. European security officials observed Russian Navy ships in vicinity of Nord Stream pipeline leaks

    Pfft.

    ROFLMAOPIP “Russian Trawlers”?????!!!!

    But not NATO/U.S. subs, eh. Oh. Right. They sorta operate underwater– a lot of times, roboticly. What’ll they think of next!

    DCSCA (892e85)

  62. DCSCA:

    I am sure you think the Ukrainians are shelling their own nuclear power plant too? Amirite?

    Appalled (f9a15e)

  63. Yoda was wrong. It is ignorance which leads to the Dark Side.

    nk (7aee43)

  64. “likely much higher” Those are the key words in this Washington Post article on the young men fleeing “Czar” Putin’s brutal and unsuccessful war on his neighbor:

    The mobilization is a risky and unpopular decision, bringing home the grim reality of the war to many Russians who were previously apathetic supporters of the invasion, or quiet opponents. Putin, normally cautious about stirring dissent, promised in March not to mobilize Russians to fight. But after major setbacks in Ukraine, including the humiliating Russian retreat in the Kharkiv region, he has broken that promise.

    The emerging scale of the exodus — more than 180,000 Russians have fled just to three neighboring countries, with the full tally likely much higher — has raised questions about the Kremlin’s ability to sustain its war effort.

    “Likely much higher” already, and growing rapidly every day.

    Jim Miller (85fd03)

  65. Yoda was wrong. It is ignorance which leads to the Dark Side.

    Also pride, greed, lust, envy, gluttony, wrath, and sloth.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  66. The NY Times has an article about phone intercepts of Russian soldiers in Ukraine. It’s pretty damning and exposes war crimes.

    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2022/09/28/world/europe/russian-soldiers-phone-calls-ukraine.html

    We detained them, undressed them and checked all their clothes. Then a decision had to be made whether to let them go. If we let them go, they could give away our position. … So it was decided to shoot them in the forest.

    >>Did you shoot them?

    Of course we shot them.

    >>Why didn’t you take them as prisoners?

    We would have had to feed them, and we don’t have enough food ourselves, you see.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  67. @65. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oz8RjPAD2Jk

    OTOH, lest you forget the corrupt character of the Bugs Moran your tax dollars are propping up:

    ‘Ukraine announced… that men between the ages of 18 and 60 were forbidden from leaving the nation, which has been under martial law since the start of the Russian invasion.’

    https://nypost.com/2022/02/25/ukraine-men-ordered-to-stay-and-fight-russia-as-others-flee/

    “Truth is always the first casualty of war.” – Aeschylus

    DCSCA (914cb8)

  68. #70

    Going to answer the question asked? Deflection noted.

    Ukranian corruption is an issue and ensuring the money given is spent where it should be is a concern I have. It doesn’t justify Russia’s invasion in any way and US interests are served in helping Russia to fail. Gives Xi something to think about, and ensures that Putin cannot upend the world order the way he wants to.

    Appalled (50370f)

  69. @69. The history of the Russian army should tell you it’s not known for any ‘quality of mercy’ – even on their own troops, as the bodies of the frozen dead crushed under their tanks on the move outside Moscow in WW2 would tell you. As would the residents of the raped and pillaged Berlin– or, more recently, Afghanistan defenders and struggling survivors amidst the rubbled ruins of Syria.

    DCSCA (914cb8)

  70. @71. It was.

    Denial noted.

    DCSCA (914cb8)

  71. @71. Lest you forget- Snake Island. The hallowed dead defenders of their Alamo- complete w/postage stamp ingratiation- turned out to have been captured alive. So much for honor among thieves; our Squinty has chosen finance Bugs Moran against Al Capone with U.S. tax dollars charged to Uncle Sam’s credit card in this territory gang fight. Destitute citizens in Puerto Ricans are so pleased.

    DCSCA (914cb8)

  72. ^Puerto Rico

    DCSCA (914cb8)

  73. #73

    I respect your knowledge of UK TV. Deflection still noted.

    Appalled (50370f)

  74. Forget about it, Appalled.
    This is akin to DC’s endless rants about Biden’s several occurrences of plagiarism decades ago and silence about the tens of thousands of lies Trump told in just four years as a one-term POTUS.

    Paul Montagu (753b42)

  75. Speaking of the fossil fuels that were supposed to flow through those pipelines, here is a brilliant Chevron ad.

    Paul Montagu (753b42)

  76. 78. Isn’t oil supposed to come from plants not animals? But then this is a fake ad, which you notice 45 seconds into the “commercial”

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  77. DCSCA (892e85) — 9/28/2022 @ 9:59 pm

    But not NATO/U.S. subs, eh. Oh. Right.

    The U.S. and NATO and non-NATO allies like Sweden know they didn’t do it.

    And should you say they could lie, I don’t think you could have a conspiracy here involving many different governments and countries. Without somebody telling the truth.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  78. ……and non-NATO allies like Sweden ……

    Not for long……

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  79. Each Nord Stream pipeline consists of two separate pipelines. Initially leeks in only 3 were reported – yesterday Sweden reported a 4thh one had leaks, but I don’t knw whether that was new, or just detected later..

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)


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